I am not proposing that affordable government housing is the solution to the whole issue of federal firefighter (oh right... I mean forestry tech.) pay in California, I hold on to the fantasy of one day owning my own place, however it dose seem an avenue that could be addressed. As it stands on my Forest most of these homes are slated to be razed in the very near future, of course most are in disrepair and have stood vacant for years. Perhaps these homes could be an asset (if made livable again) in the recruitment and retention of dedicated employees.

I know that for me it was a benefit, not only financially, but in imparting a sense of family, place, loyalty and history. I don't pretend to understand Forest Service economics, though I do think the above qualities are far more valuable than the price of continuing the upkeep of these properties. I think it will take more than a one pronged approach to solve the retention and pay issues in R-5, housing is going to be a huge factor that portal to portal or better government housing cannot solve alone but with multiple approaches hopefully, most of us will elect to stick it out for the duration in an expensive but challenging locale.

007

COMT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<image: Safety and Health Working Team>

The National Interagency Incident Communications Division (NIICD) of the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC), has been made aware that previously unknown problems exist with Racal radios that are currently in use within the interagency fire community.

Radios operating with the most recent firmware version (7.1) have been found to exhibit the following problems:

• Radios will unexpectedly cease transmitting with no indication to the operator. In order to correct the problem the radio must be cycled off and then on again.
• After having been shut down, the radios will intermittently display "Empty" on the LED display. In order to return to the desired Bank/Group, the user must access through the program mode.

All Racal radios currently being used on Wildland and prescribed fire should be immediately recalled from operational use. The NIICD has been informed that an upgrade to correct the problems will soon be released by the manufacturer.

If you have any questions call your agency communication specialist or the manufacturer.

Jim Anger
State Occupational Safety and Health Manager
California State Office
janger@ca.blm.gov

Try the Styles Check company. Thats who I get mine through.
Few different styles to choose from.

Crash46

Thanks for the fire photo DeeAnn. I'll post it to photos over the holidays. Readers, do you know of any place you can get fire checks online? Ab.

Dear Ab,

Our Community has 12 little ones who need a little help from Santa this year. They have lost their Dads, and Moms are stretched a little thin. Two of the little ones were born after their Dads passed on.

Last year, Shane Heath's (Cramer Fire Fatality) Mother called me and said she wanted to donate the money she normally would have spent on Shane for Christmas to a needy family. We sent the money to a mother of 4 small children. Mom received the money just before Christmas and she called with a big Thanks, expressed through her tears of thanks.

When we had our first Family Day this year with fallen firefighter families, we discovered more little ones whose Moms could use a little help from Santa.

If you want to help, call the Foundation at 208-336-2996 and give us your information. When we send the donations to our Moms, we will include the names of those who helped Santa this season. This information is also on our website: www.wffoundation.org.

What a wonderful community we live in. Thanks for all the support.

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

I've seen the latest post about BOISE and NIFC not acknowledging the Pandemic
threat.

There are three (out of five) NIFC Agency Directors (members of the
National MAC Group retiring between Dec. 30 and March 15. - Do people
really think that NIFC is thinking about the 'pandemic'?

BLM is bouncing around real bad today as their Director was asked today to
report to DC for official duty and said "No, I'm retiring."

KG

Um hummm. I hope local groups are working in their counties and cities to get prepared with their local plan. I called to see what plan the schools have in my area. I was told that they will be doing what the county tells them. This is a very poor rural county. The county doesn't yet have a plan. I don't know if they even have a plan for a plan. In Canada the plan is if 25% of students are absent, the school shuts down. Kids spread germs to other kids and their families. Personally, I think this is how a pandemic would spread most readily if/when it comes. Those of you with kids in school, at least ask your schools what the plan is. If you don't have one, take local action to make one. Ab.

1. Recognize Forestry and Range technicians who specialize in fire as emergency responders and give them an appropriate classification for the hazards they perform. (A GS-5 who picks up trash for a living cannot be compared to a GS-5 who puts themselves and their family at risk each day.) Recognize these jobs as inherently hazardous.
2. Recognize and correct the recruitment and retention problems for wildland firefighters.
3. Require relevant education under the IFPM.
4. Give managers the power to manage for the safety of their programs without being told their mission is agricultural, biology, forestry, or natural resources in nature. Managers are primarily managing people in the fire program, secondarily managing the mission. Emphasis needs to change to safety.

The number one PPE for wildland firefighters is their brain. Any amount of PPE cannot replace the safety provided by someone who is educated, informed, and prepared for the hazards. Recognition Primed Decision-making (RPD) is the best PPE. Without RPD, good information, training, and discussion is the next best thing.

Wildland firefighting has greatly changed over the years. At some point, the focus on keeping people safe has shifted to appointing blame and keeping agency liabilities at a minimum. This shift began the process of appointing blame to an individual or group of individuals while shifting direction away from the real causes. It began when the Swiss Cheese Model (Accident Causation Model) was hijacked by Agencies without understanding what it really says. In short, what it says is that people will always make errors (active failure) and that cultural, agency, and systematic approaches should be in place to minimize these latent failures.

The accident causation model works from the bottom up. The last act in the chain is the active failure (act or omission). The underlying (bottom of the pyramid) failures allow the person or people at the top to make human errors when they don’t have the slides to be prepared for the event.

> From Human Errors, Dr. James Reason

“There is a growing awareness within the human reliability community that attempts to discover these latent failures will have a greater beneficial effect upon safety than will localized efforts to minimize active errors.”

“One of the consequences of the developments outlined above is that complex tightly-coupled and highly defended systems have become increasingly opaque to the people who manage, maintain, and operate them. This opacity has two aspects: not knowing what is happening and not understanding what the system can do.”

As far as Avian Flu, or any non-traditional response, or any type of simple preparedness…. The people who make decisions need to act on the latent problems….. Be leaders, give direction, set policy… inform and prepare the troops for the known hazards, the potential hazards, and the potential consequences. If not, when a pandemic strikes, I am going to give a refusal (and a middle finger).

Remember the hazards of the 9/11 response (silicates, asbestos, PAH, stress, etc) and the unknown hazards of the Cerro Grande fire. How many wildland firefighters were informed of these latent hazards before saying… “Can Do”? How many wildland firefighters have, or will have problems from these duties in the future?

Doctrinal review anyone?

Lobotomy

Thanks for the calendar picture idea. I forwarded it on for consideration. As far as who contributes, this is the time-off season for many between Thanksgiving and year-end, before training classes come on hot and heavy. Regarding demographics, we have posters from the Midwest. They're busy with fire and getting ready for the Holidays. We have posters from the NPS. We have retired NPS firefighters who post and have been posting good information since the early days of the site. We have posters who began FS, went to DoD and came back to FS. We have posters who have similarly shifted between NPS and BLM and the FS. Many posters are from the West because most of the large National Forests and National Parks that burn during hot summers are western. There are lots of lurkers from the east... Stick around a season or two and you'll get a real sense of the variety, ebb-and-flow of the site and the interagency contributions. Ab.

Readers, if you're looking for that special gift that supports this online forum, check our Wildlandfire.com store. Original Ab has done a lot of work on the store. This Ab thanks him greatly for that. OA's work on the store, the Classifieds page and the page sponsor signups lets this website stay up and running in the black with bills paid. Black is good.

I feel I haven't thanked Original Ab enough lately. I really appreciate his inspired original idea for theysaid, his work to create this site, his re-entry and support of wlf.com upon his retirement from the Forest Service, and his continued dedication. Good man ==> Original Ab. Thank you so much! Carry on.

Readers, here's another way you can support us: If you're buying online and can make your purchase thru Amazon.com, please use our special affiliates link here to get to Amazon: Amazon WLF.com Affiliates Link. This link is also available on the FireBooks page (top right black link or any book link). We get a small percentage commission on all purchases made via our link, be they books, computers, household items, whatever.

We're still working on the 2006 Wildland Fire Calendar. If anyone has photos of big flames, send them in. Last year we had some CDF big flames or some LA County big flames as well as photos from the private sector and fed firefighters. We could use some more if any state, county or city wildland firefighters are reading <haw haw> I know you are. Wildfire flames are excellent! Last year the interagency feel of the calendar was very nice. One of my favorite months, June, had a night shot of Native American firefighters in silhouette with drip torch. Looking back, they all were veeeerrry nice!

When you send in photos, if you could put "Calendar Photos" in the subject line, it would help me direct the message and photos to OA. I am behind on posting photos to the photo pages, but should get to that early next week after the FWFSA Conference. I will forward possible calendar photos on to Original Ab.

Last year's calendar was dynamite. We're hoping this year's will be as good. Please send those photos in.

Ab.

You probably have already seen this but I thought I'd forward this e-mail chain to you just in case. It's a little outdated, maybe 5 weeks. There has been a rapid spread of H5N1 in wild and domestic birds in Europe, Africa, and BC and Manitoba, Canada with fall migration. China has not been forthcoming with info and probably won't be until the Chinese New Year in February. (In the SARS epidemic they fessed up then; they didn't want to disrupt their national cash flow with negative press during that season of celebration and spending.)

Avian Influenza: Department of Homeland Security, 10/05 (1,560 K pdf file)

Folks are starting to get prepared -- some key people are starting to listen and forward preparation e-mails and ask questions about how we will do business in the advent of a global pandemic.

Many of these people forwarding the e-mail are decision makers; hopefully they will act and just not forward e-mails. There needs to be an official USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, F&WS, etc... direction memo on how we do business, or how we have continuity of operations (if needed) if/when something bad happens. Asking questions and spreading the preparedness info is good; providing a solution or recommended action is better. Decision makers need to step up.

NorCal Tom

We have gotten this pdf file from a growing number of interagency sources. Thanks ALL contributors.

Some of those who have sent the pdf have sent a brief link to stories that city and state first responders have been having emergency preparedness drills, for emergencies like earthquake, terrorism, tsunami and bird flu. Those are a bit out of date now.

Speculation: On the fed side, I think there's a lot of denial (Houston we have a problem) in Boise and in the Washington office. It also could be that NIFC feels wildland firefighters are not trained in epidemic or pandemic emergency response. I've heard some team members feel they haven't signed up for this kind of duty if it puts their families at risk. It's not clear that there is or will be enough PPE like that needed for the Exotic Newcastle Disease chicken choking assignments. I've wondered myself, what if teams just say no? I also have heard there are a lot of people retiring; the rest are very busy and overworked; many are in the "use it or loose it" mode on time off; some still remain on hurricane relief assignment.

Fact: We plan to stay up and running with the best info available through whatever comes.

Be safe. Ab.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is still collecting on pledges made for the Ken Perry 52 Mile Run.

This is the time to send in your donation. 208-336-2996 and Melissa will help you. (She's the one who rode her bike along supporting Ken ... she has the NICE muscled legs. Photos, what a neat event. )

You'll get to write it off on your 2005 taxes -- and it's a very good cause, providing the support our community needs.

Ab.

Vince

         # of PCS Positions    # of Losses    Percentage Loss
GS-3          5                    2              40.00%
GS-4        131                   20              15.27%
GS-5       1002                  111              11.08%
GS-6       1140                   79               6.93%
GS-7        726                   33               4.55%
GS-8        144                    6               4.17%
GS-9         80                    2               2.50%

My only input on this cost of living discussion is that it was an issue in 1967 when I stated, came to a head in the Carter Admin with the Grace Commission report, and our Association has taken it up recently. The discussions are familiar, I remember rational about GS-7's doing just fine in Southeast forests in the 70's for not increasing pay, maybe that's why the locality pay crumb came about. What was shocking about the Grace report was that in the late 70's, granted with crazy high inflation, the buying power of a GS-6 had shrunk to a GS-4 in the 60's. Regardless of the rational used in the 70's and now, and regardless of what some feel are the political realities the Forest Service FF is under paid, making them a general biologist won't fix it, and in fact will make it harder to separate from the non-fire fighter types, the fat ones with sandals, sorry couldn't resist. I am disappointed that our FF community, our Rangers, and Forest Supervisors, and association have not taken a stronger stand on this. My input as an association member, career FF going out Mandatory soon is to support the association, don't let the pay issue die, and resist the 401 series.

CBork

I've been thinking long and hard about this bird flu thing. I'd like to sum up briefly what I've seen so far, and then continue on with my personal conclusions.

I see the situation as this: experts tell us that we are overdue for another influenza pandemic, which will in all likelihood effect the whole world in a matter of months. This pandemic will most likely strike in the fall, and will most likely involve a strain of influenza A, or avian influenza, to which the majority of humanity has no effective immune response. In 1996/1997, a strain of influenza A emerged in Hong Kong which appears to meet the criteria to be a pandemic-inducing candidate virus. Over the last eight years, press coverage of this particular virus has been increasing, as cases have slowly been appearing, in individuals and clusters, over Southeast Asia. Right now, confirmed cases, including cases of human-to-human transmission from outbreak patient to a first generation, have appeared in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Hong Kong, and China. I'm not sure about Laos. Statistics out of China are almost certainly suspect, given Chinese government policies. The US government appears to be taking the possibility of a pandemic seriously. We were told to watch for human to human transmission; this has occurred. Now we have to wait for transmission to go from clusters to chains. We have not yet seen infection more than one generation beyond the outbreak patient.

I am currently a graduate student, living in a shoebox. I expect to move three times in the next six to nine months. I am not in a position to stock up on food and medication. My influenza preparedness plan is based on staying informed, and hopefully taking myself from where I am now to somewhere where I can realistically protect and isolate myself and my family (about 2,700 miles from my current position) before the wave hits. If that fails, I suppose I will have to count on the fact that as a female of childbearing age with useful skills, society has a collective and biological interest in keeping me alive (fairly grim humor there).

For my small rural fire department, I am suggesting adding a box of 100 masks and a box of ten body bags to every EMS supply order we put out. I'm suggesting adding a case of MREs to every fire order we put out. I'm also taking a hard look at our in-place preplanning, looking for (or adding) things like preplanning for utility failures, temporary morgue facilities, and points of distribution for food supplies, etc. The response I consistently get is "But won't FEMA (or the Red Cross, or Public Health) deal with that?" Maybe, maybe not. It can't hurt to think it through like they won't.

This is a worst-case scenario plan; in all likelihood this will blow over like Y2K did, with appropriate preparation from a variety of angles turning the event into a non-issue. Statistically, we are more likely to see an event like the 1957 or 1968 pandemics than the more serious 1918 pandemic, but we will see a pandemic; maybe not this year, maybe not this virus, but we will.

>From the point of view of the wildland fire community as a whole, the implications of a pandemic are far-reaching. In unconventional response after unconventional response (SARS, the Columbia Shuttle Recovery, various Hurricanes), the wildland fire community has shown itself to be the most flexible and easily deployed federal response pawn on the board. There's been a lot of talk about FEMA; let's bear in mind that FEMA supplies resources and organizes responders; FEMA is emergency management, not emergency response. In one way or another, wildland firefigthers will almost certainly be deployed to areas affected by a pandemic, in some capacity. The flip side of that coin is if the federal government institutes restrictions on movement in order to control the spread of disease. I'm not aware of any recent precedent for this, short of declaring martial law, but it could cripple the nation-wide wildland fire response system we've come to expect. Upshot: We may have to simply defend the urban-wildland interface and let the wildlands burn.

Realistically, do I think it will get that bad? No. Do I think it could get that bad? Hell, yeah. I'm not worried about my small rural community. I know there's enough poached elk in those freezers for a good long while, and if the power fails we can just pack everything in snow. I worry about the inner cities, where folks aren't prepared for days- or weeks-long power outages, where they buy dinner on the way home from work and expect the government to come save them if something goes wrong.

With apologies for going so long,

Nerd on the Fireline (or in this case, call me Cassandra)

Bill Gabbert
Executive Director
International Association of Wildland Fire

Thanks for the info, John. Give our best to Kenny and his family. Ab.

1. I believe it a "reality" that Congress is not going to vote to give one small group of government employees exorbitant pay raises. Why only ff's? Are not the timber, recreation, engineering techs also entitled to living wage in areas with high cost of living?
2. Looking to establish an entry wage that allows employees to afford the "median" home (2000 sq. ft. 1 1/2 bath, 2 car garage?) Uh, uh. How about entry wage persons buying entry market housing..... my first was a 900 square foot "fixer upper" (emphasis on the fixer) bought it for less than half of a "median" house.
3. I don't recall any tragedy that would have been avoided had the victim had a larger paycheck.

Sorry, but bottom line is I just don't think it's going to happen. Best wishes to those who want to focus their effort on portal to portal.

I'm done on this topic. I'll continue to focus my energies on getting people permanent assignments, training, and career ladders. So far, that's been very productive for me in keeping good folks (and I'm extremely proud of our ff's).

Old Fire Guy

Hi Old Fire Guy. Just a bit of a note here. In socali, the homes that are below the median are, for the most part, in very dangerous neighborhoods. I wish it were as simple as finding a 900 square foot fixer upper and going for it. Ab.

^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'
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HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--TURKEY!

v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'

The Abs.

Jumpers are adapting to change in the federal fire program very effectively, filling much needed roles in supervision and incident management Region One Smokejumpers have also taken leadership roles outside of jumping fires. Teaching fire classes around the country, directing the Region One staff ride program, as a Fire Use Module, as tree climbers, prescribed fire specialists, saw certifiers, managing and staffing helicopters, and directing FEMA relief teams are just a few of the various duties I have served as a Smokejumper. Not bad for a bunch of GS-6’s who are only guaranteed 6 pay periods of work per year!

I hope you really don’t believe these things have “long lost their usefulness to the wildland fire community”. As both a jumper and a rappeller I have caught fires that would have gone big. Who knows? Maybe if budget cuts had not closed the Cave Junction Smokejumper base, the nearby Biscuit Fire would have been caught small by jumpers. That savings alone would have funded the entire Smokejumper program for close to a decade.

A few other points:

1. The hourly rate of a DC-3 with 16 jumpers and 1600 pounds cargo is less than many helicopters. It also has a range and payload capacity that exceeds any helicopter.
2. Most decision makers at NIFC are not former Smokejumpers.
3. The decision to staff single tree lightning fires is managements, not a Smokejumper, rappeller, or any other initial attack resource.

Every single tool swinger out there is important to our mission. We all need to work together and cooperate, regardless of how we chose to get to a fire. I encourage you to think critically and keep talking to all on the fireline, including jumpers. They may surprise you!

I’d also be happy to talk to you as well, encourage you to detail as a Jumper to Missoula, or for some interesting reading check out the 2004 Smokejumper use summary at the following address: www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/2004_rpt.pdf

MT Jumper

PS- Thanks to Cbork, whatmousewouldsay, and ClassC for thoughtful posts!

Welcome to theysaid MT Jumper. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PRELIMINARY (24-hour) SUMMARY
REPORT

Wildland Firefighter Fatality
November 17, 2005
MARVIN FIRE

This Preliminary Summary Report is intended to provide factual information from the first 24 hours of the accident review. It is published and distributed within a short time frame. The information contained within this report may be subject to revision as further investigation is conducted, and other reports and documents are received.

Synopsis

During fire fighting operations on the Marvin Fire in Buchanan County, Virginia, a single firefighter, was overrun by fire during the early afternoon of November 12, 2005. The fatality occurred during the initial attack phase of what would become a 350 acre incident.

Narrative

During the early afternoon of November 12, 2005 the Oakwood Volunteer Fire Department was dispatched to a reported wildland fire caused by an equipment malfunction (lawnmower caught on fire). The Department’s Chief, who lived near the fire department, was the first resource to dispatch to the incident. The immediate priority was the protection of a residence, and specifically a propane tank located near the woods. Prior to any other resources arriving on scene, the Chief began constructing a handline to protect the propane tank and residence nearby. Initial information gathered indicates that strong winds and very low humidity caused the fire to cross the handline below the Chief and then to advance very quickly up-slope, ultimately overrunning him during his retreat. The Chief died at the scene.

As a result of some "outlaw firing" I assume....good info.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FYI. New communications required prior to conducting firing operations.
Please distribute as appropriate to your troops.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Handbook 7013 Update - Firing Operations

Importance: High

There has been an update to Handbook 7013 regarding communication during firing operations. See red section below. Also, you may click on the link below to go to the electronic Handbook. Please ensure all operational personnel are aware of the communications “clarification”.

INCIDENT AUTHORITY 7013.4.2
(No. 1 November 2005)

The Incident Commander has the overall authority and responsibility to set a backfire or burn should the need exist. As the incident organization expands, the responsibility and authority to backfire or burnout may be delegated. A normal progression of delegation, depending on the complexity of the incident, would be from the Incident Commander to the Operations Section Chief and could  extend down to the Branch Director, Division Supervisor, Strike Team Leader, Task Force Leader or Single Resource.

Communications When Firing:
Except where immediate firing is necessary to prevent the loss of life or major property damage, all firing operations shall be communicated to the appropriate ICS supervisor prior to the commencement of the firing operation. The officer supervising the firing operation shall remain in communication with his/her ICS supervisor and adjoining forces to the extent possible.

The level of backfire and/or burnout authority should be identified as early as possible. Radio net announcement at the incident will be made prior to backfiring and/or burnout. This will be communicated on tactical and command nets and will identify general location of geographic area to be burned.

This is notification that there has been an amendment (#1) to the 7000 Fire Operations Handbook; revises Section 7013.4.2 Incident Authority.
(No. 1 November 2005)

The 7000 Handbook is available through CDF's Intranet, CDF Issuance Publication. General questions about the handbook may be directed to: Rich Green, Fire Protection: (916) 653-7370.

Shortcut to: http://cdfweb/Pubs/Issuance/7000/7013.pdf#7013_4_2 (Requires having access to the CDF intranet. Ab.)

There's going to be a couple of specials on PBS tonight.

9PM pacific time ; rebroadcast at 1AM
Influenza 1918 - As the nation mobilized for war in the spring of 1918, ailing Private Albert Gitchell reported to an army hospital in Kansas. He was diagnosed with influenza, a disease doctors didn't know much about. Before the year was over, America would be ravaged by a flu epidemic that killed 600,000 people -- more than died in all the wars of this century combined -- before disappearing as mysteriously as it began.

2AM pacific time -
Secrets of the Dead - Killer flu - Modern scientists in both the U.K. and U.S. are in a desperate race to determine why the 1918 flu pandemic -- which killed an estimated 100 million -- spread so quickly throughout the world and with such virulence at the tail end of World War I.

The American Experience website: Influenza 1918
Secrets of the Dead website: Killer Flu
Schedule search is HERE.

Mellie

Enough of the Bird Flu talk, with all of the funding and budget issues I propose that the people on the ground start throwing out ideas on how to save money so the people who make the decisions in DC know what our issues are.

The people in DC know what your issues are. They don't like to see firefighters come home in body bags. That's why millions are spent on making sure ff's have the best tools available - like the new fire shelters ff's asked for, and the improved qualifications of line-going overhead, and better healthier compadres to work shoulder to shoulder with on the line (aka wct.)First of all, congress funds the Fire agencies - however, it's fire money that's paying the office rent, the vehicle leases, the barracks, those all mud-trak tires, and your training. If you knew how much fire budgets dollar went to fund the "rest of the organization" I think it would surprise you that we still have a fire program. Quit your griping. Ask your line officer where the fire dollars are going - ask to see "the budget" on your unit and see who is paying for what. Don't forget those DC slugs worked in fire also. Thinking about the good old times when a ff made $2.65 an hour. Funny, Mark three's still weigh the same. But we didn't have those mini-pumps and all the "lightweight gear now available.

First of all, how about cutting back on some of these so called Type 1 Training Crews that haven't gotten their Type 1 rating yet. Three years, if you don't have it by then your axed. Don't get me wrong, their are some great IHC's that have been formed over the last few years, but there are also a lot of bad ones who don't deserve to have the word Hotshots in their name.

What's the difference between a Type 1 training crew and a Type I firefighter? Years of experience, more exposure to different types of fire management? If the crews don't do anything else other than cut line, I agree - what have they learned. And it makes me wonder why there still are type II militia crews that can outperform mentally and physically these T1 training crews.

Secondly, and more importantly, when was the last time you heard "It was a good thing we had those jumpers on our fire".

If smokejumpers are doing what their mission calls for, then you shouldn't see them on your fire. And it you do, it just may be as overhead. The jumper mission is changing, and has always evolved. If you don't know the scope of the program and the skills these Type 1 ff's bring to the arena, don't be so harsh to criticize them. Walk a mile in their boots.

When the axe falls the first place it should land is on the jumper programs, FS and BLM. If you have a chance, look at how much money is budgeted for these programs. It is a ridiculous waste of money

......sorry, have to cut in here. There is still value to keeping some fires small - especially those mid-summer nightmares that can go on forever. It's been proven over and over that the efficiency rate of using jumpers effectively is a boon to ALL of the agencies. (and besides, they don't just fight fires, spend a day with some of the gals and let them tell you what a smokejumper does for project work.)

when you look at how much funding gets to the engines, crews, and helitack programs. I don't know if it is just me, but in today's world jumpers are totally ineffective and the least efficient of all resources.

Since you wanted to spark a discussion, can you rationalize that statement? Give some examples.

I know in AK they are needed, but in the lower 48 give me a helitack / rappelle crew for anything that engines and crews can't access. It would be interesting if we could go one or two seasons without smokejumpers and see just how if affects our IA success rate, put that money into a few more helitack crews and extra CWN ships.

What, helicopters don't cost money? They can fly further and faster than fixed-wing? They carry larger loads, more firefighters to a bust area? - When you can get 12-16 highly qualified firefighters into 1 aircraft - you have capabilities to catch up to 8 fires on one flight out - or the equivalent of delivering one IHC direct to a fire.

Of course, this will never happen because who do you think sits up at NIFC and makes the decisions on where our money goes, that right, all ex-bros.

Sorry, but the last mule in charge of oats left the station about a dozen years ago. The FIRE AND AVIATION budget comes out of the Congress and the Agencies National offices, NOT NIFC. And definitely not for the Forest Service. NIFC does assist and helps provide severity authorization - but that mostly for crews, helicopters, engines, prevention techs. Smokejumpers, because of their efficiencies are nationally funded resources - they earned it because they are proven? And as for the NIFC decision makers being all Bros - can that drivel. There isn't a current NIFC Fire Director that's ever been a smokejumper. In fact, the two largest fire program directors at NIFC never dragged a shovel in their careers. And the ones who have fought fire, were highly motivated, positive thinking pounders.

Smokejumpers are nothing more than a tradition that has long lost it's usefulness in the wildland fire community. And it's not just the funding part, how much money is sucked down by broken down jumpers on workman's comp who augured in on a single tree fire that would have burned itself out if left alone for another 30 minutes.

And do you know how many former jumpers who gave years of service to fire are unable to walk, let alone can not get assistance from OWCP. You know, rather than letting you piss off a bunch of good people that have the moxy and cajones to meet, greet and challenge their dreams - Mopping you up isn't worth the effort because I just feel you'll never be open to looking at the heart of a true smokejumper. Smokejumpers have been to the moon, been the first to take on the most dangerous face of Everest (and win), and in our own small world - run 52 miles for the 52 club - the Wildland Firefighter Foundation that will be there for you - if ever anything other than your ego should seriously suffer.

Well in the question below this, you ask I wonder how many think the "same way I do"

-- Well, I don't. An old saying with the smokejumpers to maintain situational awareness used to go like this - when you get into a rut, and your frustrations run on for seasons - it's time to get out of the business because you are putting yourself and others at risk. I truly suggest if something is bothering you that bad about all of the above - please don't sign on to be the weakest link in my chain! Good luck. And by the way - have a nice day.

I don't mean to rant and rave, but this has been something that has really frustrated me over the last couple of years. I am curious, how many others out there think the same way I do? Hopefully, this starts a hot discussion.

-FRUSTRATED FF

What Mouse would say...

"The investigators pointed out that in general, although not related in particular to the Inaja fire, present Government salary and wage rates make it difficult to obtain and hold competent fire control personnel."

The agency tendency to conceal parts of the investigation was also an issue then, as it has been in recent investigations:

"However, it became evident that the public interest in this particular fire disaster was so great that the interviews should be made public."

And, of course, I'm sure everyone will be as pleased as I was to read this entry in the glossary:

"Tanker.--A truck equipped to carry water or other liquids used in suppressing a fire."

vfd cap'n

Maybe a better approach would be to pursue "locality pay" to bring employees up to parity with their counterparts in other agencies. That might be a better sell. Right now I think Congress is hearing "pay firefighters to sleep" and that is an inaccuracy. Still, with the cost of war, hurricane disasters leaving so many without shelter, looming pandemics, and limited desire to go further in debt, I have my doubts that Portal-to-Portal will pass as written.

I have nothing but admiration for the firefighters in California that stay dedicated to their work while facing the challenge of limited opportunity to own a home.

Old Fire Guy

Eh, Firehorse, glad yer still lurking out there. Ab.

After spending several more hours researching the options, it appears my best choice boils down to staying with Blue Cross/CA Care or switching to Blue Shield Access+. Since I've been with Blue Cross/CA Care for around 15 years and have been happy with them (until now), I haven't paid much attention to the other plans. Does anyone have any input on the Blue Shield Access + plan? The two plans appear near mirror images of each other with a couple of minor exceptions, but the latter is $100 p/month cheaper. Without knowing any better, it looks to me like Blue Cross wants out of the FEHBP business as demonstrated by their outrageous premium increase.

SteveM

I got some chuckles out of it. Ab.

The FWFSA is a voice, and a sound one at that. I'm sure
you wouldn't refuse a pay increase... a pay increase
that the FWFSA is fighting for, even if you do like
"being in the woods."

NZ Helitack

Eric Kurtz
SE LA Interagency IMT Ops Chief.

Welcome Eric, thanks for letting us know what's going on in Louisiana. Watch out for that flaming spanish moss. It can get mighty dry in drought years. Ab.

But the x fits the Rx or "Prescribed fire" assignment designation. I vote for chicken killing identifier being KFCX. It's soooo clear. haw haw. The VA weather folks may have to find a new identifier. Ab.

20+ years and happy with or without the pay

Readers, a suggestion:

If you haven't started stockpiling food, please, my friends, set the goal of going to Costco, Sam's Club, Canned Food Warehouse, Grocery Outlet, Cash and Carry or some similar store this weekend that carries bulk grains and beans.

For about $52 you can buy:

• 50# pounds of rice (2 - 25# bags) for $12
• 50#  of pinto beans (2 -25# bags) for $18
• a bottle of multi-vitamin for $12 (500 ct)
• a bottle of vitamin C for $10 (500 ct 1000 mg; take 1/2 a C a day, 500mg).

Someone wise once said, you only have to start.
Take the first step.
Start by doing what's necessary,
then by doing what's possible,
soon you'll be on your way to achieving the impossible.

You don't have to eat well to survive, you only have to eat what's necessary.
Look at purchasing and having a food supply as insurance.
It's your "fire shelter equivalent".

The smoke is getting thicker. It's beginning to build into a column... LCES

Mellie

I'm in New Jersey taking care of family. Thanks for the info.

Novato

I talked with Casey the other day and he convinced me that it's worth the few bucks a month. If we can get OPM to get off their asses and see the light, then we can be fairly compensated for our jobs. One last thing here then I will be done, OPM doesn't care about you and your bills or if your newborn child needs special care they do not care. All they worry about is how long can they go to work and not do a damn thing for anybody but themselves. I bet they all pay their bills on time and can afford a home???

OPM is not your friend. CHECK out FWFSA. It will help all of us if we help it.....

NorCal
Capt

NZ Helitack