Firefighters Exposed to Electrical Hazards During Wildland Fire Operations
(Beginning of the CIP Bulletin...)

The recent wildland fires in Texas and Oklahoma are a reminder that among the various hazards fire fighters face during wildland fire suppression activities, and one that is often overlooked, is electrical hazards.

Fire fighters performing fireground operations near power lines may be exposed to electrical shock hazards as a result of the damage caused by the flame, heat, and smoke from the fire.

The most common hazard is through direct or indirect contact with downed energized power lines. Fire fighters should look out for power lines that fall onto, and energize, equipment and materials located on the fireground. It is also important to remember that electrical currents can flow through the ground and extend several feet in any direction (ground gradient).

(Click the link to read the rest.)

We are not getting a break as of yet. Worked another day today with several
departments, lost 2 structures but saved several also. Heard that we could
expect some crews from TN and at least 1 helo, possibly by tomorrow.

I checked on FF Hancock a short while ago and found that he is stable. He
had developed a little fluid on the lungs through last night but they had managed
to get that under control and he was doing better today.

I really want to thank everyone for their thoughts, prayers and best wishes for
him and his family, just one of the reasons that I am proud to call myself a
firefighter.

Stay safe,

Keith Newburn

The link to this article was posted on the Hot List Forum. Ab.
Residents Sift Through Burned Remains of Homes

1. Standards, Experience & Integrity;
2. Safety for Fireline Fallers;
3. Faller Mobilization (Dispatch);
4. Faller Module Program Specifications; and
5. Hazard Tree Assessment & Identification.

If any of you have access to, or can point me in the direction of, resources, information, etc. relating to the subject of commercial timber fallers in general, and timber industry fallers working on wildland fire, including historical experience and/or equipment requirements, hiring practices, etc. I sure would appreciate it. Just when I think I’ve found it all, something else emerges…so I’m certain there must be more helpful information out there…
Thanks for your input. It all matters.

Shari Downhill
Roundtable Coordinator
shari@ nwtimberfallers.com

The Sac river is cresting tonight here and we're high and dry so far (it was close)
but the weather forecast for the weekend looks ugly! We may be in for the big
one along next Tuesday. 15000 sandbags are ready. The "Quad Squad" is
ready too!

Till then, have a safe and Happy New Year and Keep your feet dry.

danfromord

Thanks Rose. Ab.

Been quite awhile since I have made any comments on here, usually I just lurk and listen to everyone else carry on. But I thought I would tell any of you who are sitting around with nothing to do, itching for a fight, that we are pretty much getting our collective you know whats handed to us in Texas right at the moment.

Lost over a 100 homes and 3 lives yesterday across the state and they see no let up for at least the next 30 days. We have been on two in excess of 1000 acres in our district alone, which contrary to popular belief about our state is not all flat. Unfortunately no resources are being ordered up as of this morning on a paid basis, that may change by this evening but I do not know that to be a fact. So if you have red bag, will travel...

Linescout

I saw the 30-40 ft flame lengths on CNN after reading some of the info on the Hot List Forum. Excellent comments on CNN from the woman information officer of the TX Forest Service. She said they have firefighters coming in from Tennessee and a few other SE states. Be Safe! Ab.

Residents, Officials Begin To Survey Fire Damage NBC-5 dallas/ft worth photos & video

Fires sweep through parched Texas Kilgore News Herald

Grass fires scorch Oklahoma, Texas CNN Governors activate emergency operations as winds fan flame

Dozens of grass fires raged Tuesday across tinder-dry central Oklahoma and parts of Texas, where Gov. Rick Perry declared a disaster and dispatched National Guard troops to help battle the flames.

Mike Rivera

Thanks for keeping me as Zimm, this is first change to look and see what is going
on. Snow on I-90 in a big way, glad I live in the "flats" of Washington.

EVERYONE HAVE HAPPY NEW YEAR AND BE SAFE FOR 2006!!!!

Zimm

I guess I'll put some serious thought into the question about vegan fireline items.

I once was a practicing vegan, that is until I joined a hotshot crew. To put it quite simply, my physician strongly advised me that I would need to change my diet just to simply meet the caloric input vs output needs of firefighting. As far as a "vegan," ppe items, they really are not out there yet, not to say they could not be developed but, from a person who goes through a new pair of NICKs a year, I would be hard pressed to recommend anything other that "animal byproduct," foot wear if you choose to engage in wildland fire suppression.

Sorry to say that, but thats the facts that I have faced so far.

NZ Helitack

Thanks for the update Keith. Glad he's on the mend. It was good to hear your drawling TX accent on my message machine on Christmas. We were out building fence as our Christmas afternoon activity. Ab.

If you read my post I said it was important to be prepared. The state of Calif. has tried to tell the people of the state to be prepared for years. 3 days of food and water, 1st aid kit, medications, flashlight w/ extra batts, radio, etc,etc,etc. The folks of Louisiana that cried out that the help didn't come soon enough, they were not prepared. Some people just don't listen. Then they blame others for problems they helped create. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Remember the run on plastic sheeting and duct tape a few yrs ago, remember the Small Pox vac's all first responders were supposed to get, remember the people standing in line last yr waiting for flu shots for a flu that didn't arrive ??? Lets not dull the senses of those we are trying to protect. Don't cry Wolf.

Good first responders, (even those that don't live out in the sticks), should be ready for the worst. Maybe because I live out in the sticks I understand that the Govt. will not arrive to help us in a timely basis because they are taking care of all the morons in the city that didn't prepare.

Maybe I'm just fed up with folks that sit on their backside and blame others for their own mistakes ? (Mayor Nagan)

Pls don't think I'm mad at you Terrie cuz I'm not. My prediction is, The Bird Flu Pandemic will be a flash in the pan. But as a good F/F I will always have a contingency plan. That's what good F/F's do.

danfromord

Many of us live in cities or WUI surrounded by people that expect to be rescued in an emergency. In my thinking, they could do with preparation. Cities and towns could have pandemic plans to minimize confusion. So preparation...Don't knock it. At the federal level, it's our business even if we're not up to speed yet. At the individual & family level, it's a Darwin issue. Being prepared means no hysteria, means when push comes to shove you could stay at home to avoid contact with sick people that sneeze and cough germs that could kill you & your family.

If city people are not prepared and self-sufficient when this thing hits, they'll be coming to your farming community, Joe's wilderness resort area and my forest --for food ewtc like some of those fleeing hurricanes would of if they could have. Not necessarily bad if we have the resources, but... some unprepared people could bring their hysterical "save me" and "feed me" attitudes with them and bring their sickies to boot. I'd rather we all --and THEY be as ready as they can where they are.

Danfromord, what's wrong with creating a culture of being prepared? Does it go against our tough firefighter, can-do attitude? Too much to think about? Won't do any good anyway? Well, I beg to differ on that last one. Being prepared even a little gives you options. If you don't have to join people shopping at the grocery store, you won't be one of the unprepared spreading the bug to families in your community.

Re hysterical: If chat discussion indicates anything, no one writing in here about bird flu is hysterical-- No one is chicken little. No shortages, no pressure right now. Just preppin', just dealin', then no needs to think about it.

When I finished getting ready with some food/ water/ alternatives to deal with essential things, I thought: OK, I've done what I can, that's all I need to do. I've met my responsibilities. The rest is up to god to sort out. Ka-ching, I could move on. Now I can help my community. Those who are doing similar service, thank you...

For me and my family, it was a simply GREAT carefree Christmas!

Dan, the only reason Mike wrote in about the Baikal duck is he knows there are federal monitoring stations on National Forests, Wildlife Refuges and Parks that are monitoring and he's trying to find the fed contact for the Lompoc area. Mike, I'm also trying to find the contact for you. Many people are home with family this week and out of touch with their station. Thanks for the heads-up... (Please let me know via Ab if the duck moves on or if you get the info you want.)

Here's to a mighty fine NEW Year! Cheers!

Tahoe Terrie

This bird flu didn't threaten a pandemic in the '70s. I'm not certain anyone is exactly worried about the duck having it. Could be Mike is just seeking info. Ab.

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-=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=-
ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°ºø¤ ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`

From the Abs at wildlandfire.com

I don't mind a bit if you give them my number. We feel like their Christmas had been pretty
well covered since it was so close, however he will have an extremely long road to recovery
and that is what we are looking at.

If you or anyone that you feel needs to contact me, you can give them my number, either
the one that you called earlier which is my home number or my cell. I will be easier to catch
on the cell.

I know that we are all family as Firefighters and his family and him need our prayers more
than anything right now.

(I finally saw some footage of his tanker earlier this morning, he was truly in god's hands to
have survived at all.)

Thank you for your help,

Keith

Prayers are coming. Let the family know. Ab.

As a Tanker/Tender from the New Summerfield Texas VFD was responding to a large Wildfire, it was struck by a train at a grade crossing, the driver was airlifted to a local hospital where he is in critical condition at this time.

The Wildfire he was responding to has so far consumed over 700 acres including several structures. Units from Jacksonville, Earles Chapel and Tyler Fire Department Haz-Mat were required to respond to the tanker/train incident where they had a large fuel spill from one of the locomotives. Units from Bullard, Flint-Gresham, Earles Chapel, Troup, Arp, New Summerfield and North Cherokee VFD's as well as 3 plows from Texas Forest Service have managed to contain the blaze after a favorable wind shift.

One additional FF from North Cherokee VFD was burned on this incident after a wind shift and blow-up. While all of this incident was unfolding Bullard and Flint-Gresham forced to respond to a wildfire that threatened several buildings, it was contained at 30 acres and no structures lost.

Units in northern Smith County were kept busy on a wildfire that consumed an estimated 300 acres of pasture and timber.

Everyone!!! please remember LCES and watchouts and
STAY SAFE.

Keith

Keith, so sorry... I put in a message call to Vicki at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Can I give her your number as a contact to see if the family needs special help? Ab.

Hope this helps and Happy Holidays!

Domaque.

www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13457441.htm

I am writing the news paper to find out who they have contacted to get the bird
tested for the bird flu...

Mike

That would be good to know. Might check with Mike P on the LP. Ab.

The USN Blue Angels have a C-130 with JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off) they call "Fat Albert". Check out Cable/Dish TV for a demo. Several planes from the 50s had JATO to assist with lifting off. The C-119s mounted them on top, the C-130 on the fuselage pointing down at a 45 degree angle behind the wings. There are more aviation folks out there to fill in the gaps. The P-2s are an example.

Merry Christmas to All!

Rush

Merry Christmas to All!

Mellie

"Unfortunately, however, it is simply a theory with few details on how to apply it in a real-world setting. In other words, the theory never defines what the “holes in the cheese” really are, at least within the context of everyday operations."

So, naturally, it is quite possible to have different interpretations of how the Swiss Cheese model should be applied to firefighter safety. A person could conceivably attend a NWCG class and disagree with what the instructor says are the "holes" are for wildland fire.

The Federal Aviation Administration has funded a series of research projects to adapt the Swiss Cheese model from its first use with nuclear plant accidents. At first, HFACS created the "taxonomy of unsafe operations" by defining the holes for military aviation accidents. Subsequent research has shown the validity for commercial and general aviation (GA) accidents.

For one of the GA projects, they recruited 5 experienced pilots from the Oklahoma City area and gave them a 16 hour course in HFACS. They then had the pilots review the causal factors listed in GA accident reports. With the first individual effort the pilots agreed on classifying 85% of the factors in the HFACS taxonomy and resolved the other 15% with discussion. (For instance, 2 pilots may have originally differed in opinion whether a causal factor was a skill-based or perception error. They eventually came to consensus and classified 100% of the causal factors in HFACS.)

Perhaps this could be done for wildfire entrapments: both fatal and near-miss incidents. If our DHS grant is approved, Colorado Firecamp could possibly do that as part of our PMS-490 Lessons Learned curriculum revision workshop. The original course put emphasis on the 5-step risk management process.

I don't know if the 5-step process in something Shappell and Weigmann had in mind when they wrote about "interest/fad-driven research resulting in intervention strategies that peck around the edges of accident causation, but do little to reduce the overall accident rate."

Maybe we could statistically prove the validity of the HFACS taxonomy for wildfire accidents. And, then perhaps we could all agree what our Swiss Cheese holes are.

vfd cap'n

• Marc Titus, Wildfire Prevention Coordinator for the State of Washington Department of Natural Resources at Sedro Wooley, to a 3 year term on the Board;
• Chuck Bushey, owner/president of Montana Prescribed fire Services in Billings and former IAWF Board member and vice-president, was elected to a new 3-year term. Bushey has been managing the IAWF’s “Firenet” website.
• Rick Gale of Boise, Idaho, Retired National Park Service Wildfire Director and currently with Organizational Quality Associates, was re-elected to a new 3-year term on the Board.

In addition to the election of these 3 Board members, IAWF President Dick Mangan was re-elected to a new 2-year term as President. Mangan, a retired US Forest Service forester, is now owner/president of Blackbull Wildfire Services in Missoula, Montana.

The Board also renewed the contract for Executive Director Bill Gabbert of Hot Springs, South Dakota. Gabbert retired as a Fire Management Officer with the US National Park Service, and is the owner/president of Sagacity Wildfire Services in Hot Springs, and has served as the IAWF Executive Director since January 2005.

The IAWF is an international organization founded to promote a better understanding of wildland fire, built on the belief that an understanding of this dynamic natural force is vital for natural resource management, for firefighter safety, and for harmonious interaction between people and their environment. IAWF has members across the US, Canada, Australia, throughout Europe and Asia. It hosts the annual Wildland Fire Safety Summit, a new series of Conferences “Fire Behavior and Fuels”, and conducts wildland fire Policy Summits to address critical issues in the wildland fire community.

Tell me more about that C-130A with the jet engines. I'm very interested in it.
If you can't, perhaps you can steer me in the right path to some one that knows
something about it...

Ed Knox

Bob, did you take a look at the 2- and 4-year schools list? Florida firefighters, any other suggestions? Ab.

I am a seasonal FF with Forest Service out of the Plumas NF. A few seasonals and I are in Hancock County Mississippi helping a non-profit organization, Foundation Hope, www.foundationhope.net.

We met them when my crew was sent here in October through the agency and FEMA. The efforts of the government to help the people were highly disappointing. So three of us and one guy from another crew came back after we got laid off to help the nonprofit organization get started. We also came down to remove debris from peoples' properties and clear storm-damaged trees for free because contractors are over-charging to do that work. We have been here for about 9 days mostly remodeling an office for Foundation Hope. We bought our own saws and some supplies to come down here and work.

We have just begun our saw work and debris removal, but we have run into some problems. We need some supplies that we cannot get down here. Mainly we need wedges of various sizes, 3 hardhats, chaps 36s or 40s. We also need some spare chains for 28" 50 gauge 3/8 pitch and 18" 50 G 3/8 pitch.

I am requesting that you post this message on "They Said" in hopes that people of wildland firefighting community might be willing to donate these supplies to us. Also if anyone is interested in helping work in Hancock County in the off season, the help is much needed, and we would be more then willing to accommodate.

My email is justin3@ pacbell.net.
My phone # is 510.703.4514.
My buddys brandon # is 918.822.1228.
We can be contacted at either of these numbers or email address.

Thank you very much,
Justin Neville and Brandon Simmons

Ab checked their bona fides and they check out. Much of the saw work is for already downed trees. Plastic wedges in a variety of sizes should work best. Ab.

There's also an announcement for the 2006 Redding IHC Leadership Development Program Training Opportunity. You can view that via this link:
www.nationalfiretraining.net/ca/nctc/

Ab.

Thanks to all who help. Ab.

"Chaz" is Charlie Stumpf. He's been on the San
Bernardino and Cleveland National Forest. Charlie has done it all,
engines, shots, aviation. If you're looking for a fun after holiday party
come on down!

Thanks again!

Boop

Hello,

In addition to the four who died in the fire, there were eight overruns involving at least 40+ people. Here is a rundown of the overruns on the morning of 20 December 1977.

Fire Overruns on South Vandenberg – December 20th 1977

Overrun of Vandenberg Engine#12 Crew. Time: 8:56 to 9:05 am.
Location: Near Origin on Tranquillon Ridge.
Effects: Engine#12 damaged (burned and blistered). Men seek cover behind engine and on roadway and survive.

Overrun of Commander & base Fire Officials, SBCo BC and Dozer Operator. Time: 9:36 to 10:00 am.
Location: Avery Road and Camera Pad.
Effects: Commander & base Fire Officials killed—when they exit vehicle and run. SBCo BC and crew overrun in
vehicle. They suffer from smoke & heat but survive. Dozer operator exposed to fire. Dies 19 days later.

Overrun of SBCo Strike Team, VAFB Engine#11, and Security Police. Time: 9:40 to 10:00 am.
Location: Delphy Road and Surf Road Intersection.
Effects: All stay in vehicles and all survive.

Overrun of Ambulance #3 transporting burned dozer operator. Time: 10:10 to 10:20 am.
Location: Coast Road. One half mile north of Delphy Road exit.
Effects: Fire impingement. Ambulance #3 backs out. Second attempt successful.

Overrun of Vandenberg and County Bulldozers. Time: 10:55 to 11:20 am.
Location: Perimeter Road around east side of SLC-4 Complex.
Effects: D6 Bulldozers overrun, operators drive into ice-plant and fenced areas for protection from firestorm.

Overrun of SLC-4 Titan Complex. Time: 11:00 to 11:20 am.
Location: Nearly all of SLC-4, including west and east pads.
Effects: Engine, Tanker and crews trapped. One firefighter injured seriously, all survive. Injured fireman rescued.

Overrun of Vandenberg bulldozer and Rescue truck on Plato Road. Time: About 2:00 pm.
Location: Plato Road, North of SLC-4 Titan Complex.
Effects: Caught by swift moving fire—cutting off exits. Dozer dives into burned area. All Survive.

Overrun of Two Vandenberg Firefighters on Coast Road. Time: About 2:00 to 2:30 pm.
Location: Coast Road
Effects: Firefighters Alt and Scott are caught by swift moving fire. Sustain burns and transferred to Hospital.

The highest recorded winds on Tranquillon Ridge was 103 knots (117 MPH).

map1
map2
photos

Thanks, Joseph N. Valencia
Author: Beyond Tranquillon Ridge

Lobotomy sent an Ab message with his last clarifying post saying that he's gone until the new year. He is working on a paper.

JOIN US IN CELEBRATING CHARLIE'S 34 YEARS OF SERVICE!
For date, time, location, & reservations, use this link: "Chaz"

(Post with Charlie's photo is on the Classifieds page under Announcements)

Merry Christmas! Thanks for doing this, Jim. The Abs.

Holiday Notice Last Day

They Said It readers get an exclusive 15% discount at The Supply Cache.
Use discount code WFCOM01 (WFC"oh"M"zero"1) when shopping for wildland firefighter gifts!
Better hurry, their last shipping day is the 19th!

~The Abs, Jim & Diane and the crew from the Supply Cache

During this holiday season, I hope people continue to prepare for being self sufficient for some months as we deal with the avian flu. We definitely have a killer influenza virus on the move, geographically and across species. It may not be airborne yet, but it is ever more transmissible human to human. The genetics point to the changes, as do the family clusters of infection in Jakarta Indonesia. Scientists around the world are extremely concerned.

Local tests show Indonesian boy died of bird flu

The United Nations urged Jakarta to take steps to halt the spread of the disease.

"We are losing the battle against this particular avian influenza outbreak. It is a very nasty bird flu virus," David Nabarro, the U.N. coordinator for avian influenza, told Indonesian officials at a meeting in Jakarta.

"Act as though a pandemic influenza will start tomorrow. Don't think we can wait around and not worry it won't start for six months or one year," Nabarro said. "Once, it starts it is too late to prepare."

Children would be the most vulnerable group, he said.

Another report (on a business website) based on what the UN spokesman said:

World Is Losing Battle to Combat Bird Flu, UN Says

Outbreaks among birds in Ukraine, Romania and possibly Africa show the deadly H5N1 avian flu strain is spreading, David Nabarro, the UN's avian flu coordinator, told Indonesian government officials and reporters today in Jakarta.

Mellie

Business Forum: What if 30% of your workers call in sick?

Be sure your company is on solid legal ground, just in case.

Business Forum: History teaches what's best in a leader.

Whenever I ask prospective clients "How can I be the most help to you?" the best executives answer: "Help me anticipate future problems."

So I am distressed to pass on a Dec. 2 report from national consulting firm Deloitte- Touche concluding that "American businesses are only beginning to recognize that a flu pandemic would present a danger to their employees, operations and bottom line."

Deeper in the report is the equally distressing news that a basic pandemic risk-management technique -- waiving sick-leave restrictions to encourage work from home -- is either rejected or undecided by more than 73 percent of firms surveyed.

So, I ask you, when an employee reports his or her life-threatening communicable disease, what exactly are you going to tell them?

Why are so many American companies sitting on their hands regarding a possible flu pandemic?

A failure of leadership.

Read the rest of the article. Ask your bosses what's up?

Tahoe Terrie

What is L-381? What redcard positions require it? If it builds on L-380,
how does it do so? Does it go into human factors in greater depth?
Somebody send me the syllabus? Ab can put us in touch.

Lobotomy, I greatly appreciate the highly academic and research-oriented
approach you bring to all you do. Wildland fire is lucky to have you as an
advocate. If you're off on vacation, have a good one!

Mellie

Thank you for your messages. I didn’t mention MCS in my post and was unaware that they had proprietary rights in the instruction of the leadership classes or I would have toned down my post a bit. I am sure they do a great job 99% of the time. But like humans and the Forest Service, sometimes they are capable of mistakes. Like I said many times before, I am a full supporter of the leadership program and the leaders they produce. I have many of them working with me, for me, and above me.

That said, I’ll get back to the facts.

GGfire and blackliner, HFACS is not the Swiss Cheese Model. HFACS is an analysis and classification database model introduced to the FAA by Shappell & Wiegmann. That model somehow migrated to the Wildland Fire Community as a potentially useful tool. The terms “Swiss Cheese Model” and “HFACS” are not interchangeable.

The analysis and classification model they introduced was partially based upon the work of Dr. James Reason but missed some of the very important concepts that Dr. Reason speaks about…. Specifically, that it is more important to concentrate on removing the “holes” in the latent areas than concentrating most of the efforts in the active failures. People f*up… they are human. Concentrate on the things you can fix such as organizational, cultural, sociological, and psychological aspects of the job.

The HFACS intent was to classify human factors so they could be placed into an analysis system for future use such as investigative procedures and prevention programs. HFACS is a great way to break down the human factors associated with both the latent and active phases of an accident or incident.

So where did the disconnect happen? Somewhere, the ideas of Dr. Reason and others got hijacked to write investigative procedures that focus on blame (pilot error, human error) and not the true holes in the ‘complex systems’ that could be fixed. The USFS guide on accident investigations relies heavily on HFACS info as do many current policies and procedures. Unfortunately, so do many aspects of our safety programs. Somehow, causal factors have become the “active” failures that assign blame and the contributory factors have become the “contributory factors”. www.nifc.gov/safety_study/accident_invest/accident_invest_guide.pdf

> Dr. James Reason, Human Errors

“There is a growing awareness within the human reliability community that attempts to discover these latent failures will have a greater beneficial effect upon safety than will localized efforts to minimize active errors.”
“One of the consequences of the developments outlined above is that complex tightly-coupled and highly defended systems have become increasingly opaque to the people who manage, maintain, and operate them. This opacity has two aspects: not knowing what is happening and not understanding what the system can do.”

> Abstract, HFACS, Shappell & Wiegmann, 2000

“Human error has been implicated in 70 to 80% of all civil and military aviation accidents. Yet, most accident reporting systems are not designed around any theoretical framework of human error. As a result, most accident databases are not conducive to a traditional human error analysis, making the identification of intervention strategies onerous. What is required is a general human error framework around which new investigative methods can be designed and existing accident databases restructured. Indeed, a comprehensive human factors analysis and classification system (HFACS) has recently been developed to meet those needs. Specifically, the HFACS framework has been used within the military, commercial, and general aviation sectors to systematically examine underlying human causal factors and to improve aviation accident investigations. This paper describes the development and theoretical underpinnings of HFACS in the hope that it will help safety professionals reduce the aviation accident rate through systematic, data-driven investment strategies and objective evaluation of intervention programs.”

> David Learmount, Flight International

“The worlds flight safety specialists have given up trying to eliminate human error. Now, the aim is to understand error and to control, or "manage" it. This strategy holds the key to improving airline flight safety, they say.”

> Dr. James Reason

"The best people can make the worst mistakes. Inattention, forgetfulness, preoccupation are the least manageable parts of an error sequence. Managing error-producing situations is better."

"They blame and train; write another procedure, search for a missing piece of knowledge (in the person); or an inherent tendency to make an error...[however] it is better to try to eliminate error-provoking situations."

Lobotomy

P.S. – GGfire and blackliner, I have spent well over 200 hours in the last year researching the Swiss Cheese Model for a future paper. I have also been trying to contact Dr. Reason for some additional information and hopefully for a review of my paper. When I finally write my paper, I expect to have nearly 1,000 hours of research in it. If any instructor on the Swiss Cheese Model wants to question my intent, Ab has my e-mail address and I will happily correspond with them. All of this research is on my own time and because I feel there are some mistakes being made in the way we are currently doing business that ultimately makes wildland firefighting unsafe. As hard as we try, wildland firefighters continue to die.

Is that the same Scott Whitmire who rookied in Redding around 1986? The Mayor of Pogueville? Barracks roommate of Jim Hanson? If is it is I just wanted to send my regards as a fellow, former jumper who has not heard hide nor hair of so many of the bros since I left to pursue "other endeavors". Keep the faith, stand tall, eat rocks and glass, etc.

Joe Hill

I felt compelled to write an observation regarding the
allegations made against Mission Centered Solutions (MCS). We have
utilized them for four years at the National Wildland Firefighter
Apprenticeship Program. In that time they have been the epitome of what we
expect our instructors to be. Professional, knowledgeable, treating the
students with fairness and respect, we could not find a better provider.
And they have always endeavored to communicate and solicit feedback, even
taking their lumps when necessary. I do not know what happened in the
session Lobotomy speaks of, but I do know that it is unfair to impugn the
integrity of MCS. I have seen the result of their classes on over 1,000
people, and I have witnessed their performance as instructors and coaches.
I believe the taxpayer is served exceedingly well by our contract with this
upstanding group.

Scott Whitmire - Assistant Coordinator, Apprenticeship Program

That's this Ms Townsend:

Press Gaggle After Avian Flu Tabletop Exercise with Homeland Security Advisor
Fran Townsend, Secretary of Health and Human Services Michael Leavitt, and
Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff
The Stakeout

Do you think she's going to be trying to dial in the Incident Management Teams?

sign me MTWO

Excellent!!! Ditto on the thanks to the community for lending support for an important firefighting tool. Ab.

NorCal Tom

Welcome Malcolm. Happy eating! Ab.

I participated in L-380 last spring and it was excellent! I know I
made the instructors a bit nervous because I'm a stress psychologist,
but they had good info. Excellent class.

Mellie

I can vouch for Cara. Any questions, give her a call. Thanks Cara. Ab.

From Redlands Daily Facts, 12/12/2005: http://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/news/ci_3302808

Bird-flu vaccine may be near
BEN BAEDER, Staff Writer

A Cal Poly Pomona instructor and a team of Los Angeles-based researchers say they are close to creating a vaccine against the avian flu, which has caused 70 deaths in Asia and which scientists believe has the potential to cause a worldwide pandemic.

Medical microbiologist Jill Adler-Moore and the team at the small Los Angeles firm Molecular Express Inc., have developed a vaccine that seems to be working in mice and has gained the attention of the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said Dave Dagle, a CDC spokesman.

"They are working on a universal influenza vaccine that has shown promise," Dagle said. "It's in an early stage, but we are interested in partnering with them."

For those who think Avian Flu and preparedness doesn't directly connect to wildland fire discussions.... Please consider...

1) Fire Camps
2) Extended Families and Friends who could lose loved ones
3) Non-traditional responses that increase exposure needlessly
4) Airline travel that increases exposure
5) Lack of general preparedness or knowledge of the risks involved (much like requiring a Professional Wildland Firefighter to become a biological scientist, forester, etc "or the equivalent")
6) General lack of understanding of Dr. James Reason's Swiss Cheese Model (I listened to a description in an L-381 class today, they f*ed it all up). Can I say that? I would hope if someone is teaching a theory or an idea that they completely research the foundation behind it..... especially for $20,000 for two classes. Hopefully this was just an anomaly.
6) and the reliance on letting someone else "take the charge"....."Hey, they are already doing
something about it"... "I don't have to act or participate. I'll be fine just doing it the way I have always done it".

Getting prepared = Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Facts speak louder than opinions (for most people).

Lobotomy

I seem to be stuck here. I am coming up on my 8th season with the forest service. After the MEL year I received an appointment and attended the academy in Sacramento. However my life took a turn and I resigned from the Forest Service, but I was always a wildland firefighter at heart. So I came back and worked on an engine crew last year. I decided I wanted to come back for good, so I started applying for AFEO positions. To cover my bases I applied for the apprenticeship because I was nearing the end of my reinstatement eligibility. Now I have been offered an apprenticeship position and I am wondering a lot of things. Since I have already completed the Academy will I have to go back? And what happens if one of the many AFEO positions I have applied for comes through? Will I be held to the infamous contract and owe the FS lots of money? If you guys don't know the answers to these questions, can you tell me who to contact to answer these for me? Thanks in advance and I want to thank the ABs for this forum to get issues and questions resolved.

I'm Back

If no one knows, I'd be happy to contact someone at the Academy. Ab.

Thanks John. Ab.

Condolences. Ab.

GK

Also good advice for travel over the holidays. Ab.

Talking with Jim Felix of The Supply Cache over the weekend, we've come to an arrangement for our They Said It viewers to receive a 15% discount on all orders placed through Dec. 19th.

If you're like us, you may not have finished your shopping yet and some of you may not have started. There's less than a couple of weeks to take advantage, so head over to Jim's site now for plenty of great gift ideas for the wildland firefighters in your life.

During your checkout process you'll need to insert the discount code of WFCOM01to qualify your order. The first round thing in the code is the letter O (oh) and the second is the number 0 (zero).

Our thanks and a Merry Christmas to our community and Jim and his staff for making this offer happen so quickly!

Original Ab.

Thanks OA and Jim. Hi Kelly! (Are you one of Santa's helpers?)

Thanks, Vicki. Ab.

Please offer our condolences to his family and do let us know about services in case some can go. Ab.

Hotshot's Mom

KD

Go to archives, documents worth reading, and find the paper titled "Hugh Carson on Accident Investigation". It is relevant to wildland fire. If you search the internet try "Reasons Swiss Cheese Model", that'll get you a bunch of hits. It is introduced in L-380 Fireline Leadership if you ever go to the training.

sting

Ab will forward any messages on.

National Geographic Channel: Race against the Killer Flu video preview;
show to air tomorrow at 9PM eastern and pacific on the Discovery Channel.

This show comes before the CNN special: Killer Flu, a Breath Away.

Todd

Summary fire-related comments by Hugh Carson in the Documents Worth Reading Section of the Archives

Forest Service Accident Investigation Guide, 2003 (pdf file)

The Human Factors Analysis and Classification System–HFACS, 2000 (pdf file)
by Scott A. Shappell and Douglas A. Wiegmann, based on Reason's work on human error.

Mellie

Ab,

Please post this as Carol needs help now! Karl jumped out of Redmond for quite a few years before moving into the fire cache at Redmond. He has fought the good fight against his illness but.........
Thanks,
Dave Lockwood

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol & Karl Petty, 7/05

On behalf of Karl, myself, Casey, and Jessie, we want to thank all of our Forest Service family for your most generous past donations of leave. We know who some of you are, but the vast majority remains anonymous yet no less endeared. Karl has far exceeded what the doctors expected and he continues to amaze me everyday with the strength and determination he
exhibits. Though he’s in a great deal of pain 24/7 he pushes everyday possible to walk and do some sort of project. He has truly become an inspiration to those who know him.

Thanksgiving these days takes on a whole new meaning. Three years ago at the end of November, Karl was diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer and so it now has come to mark a milestone for us. Back when it all started we didn’t have a clue as to the road ahead nor the toll it would bring with it. All the procedures, chemo and the cancer itself have been hard on Karl and our family. We continue to take it one day at a time. Without your past leave donations, I simply don’t know how we would have survived since the diagnosis.

Allowing the family to care for Karl and for him to remain home through this time has given us some degree of comfort. Time is the most valuable gift I can give Karl; I never before realized how precious it is. Every aspect of our lives these days seems like a timed event. How much time is left, is still unknown, but it is not indefinite either. I know I can’t begin to repay what you have already done for us. It is with mixed feelings that I find I am having to ask for more donated leave.
If you wish to contact me:

Carol Maley Petty
Training Technician
PNW Training Center

Donor Form: www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/opm630a.pdf

Send to:
Deschutes National Forest
10001 SW Emkay Dr.
Bend, Oregon 97702
c/o Marleen Brown
mmbrown @ fs.fed.us

Hey Ab, is there a web site or document that lists all of the National
Forests / Grasslands three letter designators? If so, please send me a
site address. I've looked everywhere and can't find them.

Thanks
Sparky

Check the Links page, bottom of the fed category. Ab.

I'll watch it. Ab.

ON A CLEAR, PERFECT EVENING

On a clear, perfect evening
I sit beneath the stars
watching flames leaping,
the fire burning down.

It's good to be here
good as any time, and yet
my feet remind me
why I'm here.

If I had feet that never tired,
I'd take a journey
half-way 'round the world
and stop
not because my feet
told me so,
but because I was there
on a clear, perfect evening
under the moon's golden glow

A starry night. I'd climb
the night sky ladder,
and like the flame,
announce myself
to leaves
that soon will wither,
this summer
as I sit
on a clear, perfect evening,
by the fire, burning down.

Robert Lafleur

I, as well give my plug for the 52 club and FWFSA

Also it is looking to be a long winter in northern MN,
I have a few more fire poems, so if anyone wants to hear them let me know.

And hello to all the friends I have made in my 17 years of (Cheat Death, Eat Smoke, Save Lives) 10 of them stationed out west, with a couple in R-5 South Zone.

You should know who I am by this moniker.

Lucky Lindy

Nice one. Thanks. Ab.

What does Tim Appenzeller say?
I don't see anyone here panicking, only questioning, preparing and informing.
As always, send in your other kind of fire topics. New threads are always welcome... Ab.

haw haw. Still stand by what I said. Ab.

I added it to the links page under miscellaneous. Thanks for that. Ab.

China Hiding Bird Flu Cases: Expert

Mellie, hang in there with the info. We need it. Todd

"As we undertake these efforts, we are asking for your assistance as well. In order to ensure maximum preparedness, business should develop specific plans for the ways that you would protect your employees and maintain operations during a pandemic. Companies that provide critical infrastructure services, such as power and telecommunications, also have a special responsibility to plan for continued operation in a crisis and should plan accordingly. As with any catastrophe, having a contingency plan is essential."

If the federal government wants the public (ie-business) to adequately prepare, they should be the role model. As for me, I haven't seen one "official" memo, policy letter, or even an e-mail addressing agency preparedness or the development of a contingency plan. Maybe the USDA-Forest Service and the USDI agencies feel they don't offer "critical infrastructure"?

Rogue Rivers

Our thoughts and prayers are with them. Ab.

For the other Mike... who asked about pandemic plans for public schools. I
just put out the word to try to find something, anything. Are there no DEEP
SURVIVORS advocating for our kids and grandkids? Hopefully someone
besides Canada is planning...

Aaaaarg, I wish all this would just go away and I could think about fire
training and other fun stuff! <reasoning brain like hamster on a treadmill>

Mellie

OK, got one bit of school pandemic plan info for Mike:
The American Embassy in India has a good one.
Hey, it's a small world, just a plane-flight away... Substitute San Francisco or Los Angeles, Portland or Seattle for the Deli trigger point. <little Ballywood smile> <sari caught in treadmill> <crash> <oof> <oh my>

Well, I for one am glad you stuck with the FS, yactac. Many are better, safer firefighters for your leadership and mentorship. The organization is also better for your participation. Ab.

Sincerely,

PFC <snip>

P.S.
I will be in the states next week and will have access to some of my pictures with the Forest Service that I could send.

Be safe Amanda. Anyone know of any photos? Ab.

I just went to the Foundation Homepage. What a great idea to have a Santa fund. Cute kids. Part of our community. Ab.

You created and presented an outstanding conference. I felt so honored and really enjoyed the event. After attending the conference, I really began to understand what you folks are doing for the "whole" of firefighters.

Mellie ~~

I think you should put your presentation on video and make it available to everyone. You also did a great job.

I believe what I enjoyed the most were the families that attended. What a sight to see kids on their dad's arms and spouses enjoying each other while in attendance.

Readers ~~

Let me change hats for a moment to something not Foundation related:
I had a large tent and put it up for sale on the classified page on wildlandfire.com. It sold in a week.
So list the stuff you need to sell. It works kind of like ebay, but faster & hotter!

Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

KD

There are 11 sections in all. The whole thing is posted here: www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/statelocalchecklist.html

Planning for pandemic influenza is critical. To assist you in your efforts, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have developed the following checklist. It identifies important, specific activities you can do now to prepare. Many are specific to pandemic influenza, but a number also pertain to any public health emergency.

This checklist is based on the HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan, Public Health Guidance for State and Local Partners, but is not intended to set forth mandatory requirements. Each state and local jurisdiction should determine for itself whether it is adequately prepared for disease outbreaks in accordance with its own laws and procedures.

Section 1
Community Preparedness Leadership and Networking [Preparedness Goal 1—Increase the use and development of interventions known to prevent human illness from chemical, biological, radiological agents, and naturally occurring health threats.]

Completed, In Progress, Not Started

• Establish a Pandemic Preparedness Coordinating Committee that represents all relevant stakeholders in the jurisdiction (including governmental, public health, healthcare, emergency response, agriculture, education, business, communication, community based, and faith-based sectors, as well as private citizens) and that is accountable for articulating strategic priorities and overseeing the development and execution of the jurisdiction's operational pandemic plan.
• Delineate accountability and responsibility, capabilities, and resources for key stakeholders engaged in planning and executing specific components of the operational plan. Assure that the plan includes timelines, deliverables, and performance measures.
• Within every state, clarify which activities will be performed at a state, local, or coordinated level, and indicate what role the state will have in providing guidance and assistance.
• Assure that the operational plan for pandemic influenza response is an integral element of the overall state and local emergency response plan established under Federal Emergency Support Function 8 (ESF8): Health and medical service and compliant with National Incident Management System.
• Address integration of state, local, tribal, territorial, and regional plans across jurisdictional boundaries in the plan.
• Formalize agreements with neighboring jurisdictions and address communication, mutual aid, and other cross-jurisdictional needs.
• Ensure existence of a demographic profile of the community (including special needs populations and language minorities) and ensure that the needs of these populations are addressed in the operation plan.
• Address provision of psychosocial support services for the community, including patients and their families, and those affected by community containment procedures in the plan (see Supplement 11).
• Test the communication operational plan that addresses the needs of targeted public, private sector, governmental, public health, medical, and emergency response audiences; identifies priority channels of communication; delineates the network of communication personnel, including lead spokespersons and persons trained in emergency risk communication; and links to other communication networks (see Supplement 10).
• Identify for all stakeholders the legal authorities responsible for executing the operational plan, especially those authorities responsible for case identification, isolation, quarantine, movement restriction, healthcare services, emergency care, and mutual aid.
• Make clear to all stakeholders the process for requesting, coordinating, and approving requests for resources to state and federal agencies.
• Create an Incident Command System for the pandemic plan based on the National Incident Management System and exercise this system along with other operational elements of the plan.
• Assist in establishing and promoting community-based task forces that support healthcare institutions on a local or regional basis.
• Identify the authority responsible for declaring a public health emergency at the state and local levels and for officially activating the pandemic influenza response plan.
• Identify the state and local law enforcement personnel who will maintain public order and help implement control measures. Determine in advance what will constitute a “law enforcement” emergency and educate law enforcement officials so that they can pre-plan for their families and sustain themselves during the emergency.
• Ensure that the plans are scalable, to the magnitude and severity of the pandemic and available resources. Revise as necessary.

Forest Service Employees as of June 2005 (FedScope):   45,586
30-60 percent infection rate (Osterholm, 2005):        13,676-27,352 sick employees
Worst Case Scenario (50% Death Rate of those infected): 6,838-16,411 deaths
Best Case Scenario (3-6% Death Rate of those infected):   410- 1,641 FS employee deaths

People have tried to raise situational awareness. So far the questions have been falling on deaf ears in Boise and Washington. In my opinion we're set for a major burnover. The FS will face lawsuits for many years afterwards if there is no pandemic business plan. Ab.

I am writing today only to express my current dilemma in which I believe many Wildland Firefighters have dealt with and will continue to deal with until change comes in regards to retention. The dilemma that I am speaking of is whether I should continue in my employment with the Forest Service.

The reasons for my dilemma are numerous, but I must first say that I truly love being a wildland firefighter and that I love working for the Forest Service. I have invested the past 9 years of my life to working hard and learning all I could about fire suppression and land management to prepare myself for my current position. The agency has also invested tens of thousands of dollars in my training to prepare me for my next logical promotion to captain.

As a young man working on the engine and the hotshot crew I loved to be away from home and to work as much overtime as I could but as times have changed a few years ago I married and with that my priorities changed. Before my only priority was work but now with a wife, my new family is my first priority. And here lies the dilemma, my wife and I want to start a family this year and we both believe that the raising of our children is the most important thing for us which will require her to remain at home with the children.

The problem is living in southern California it costs about 2000 dollars a month to live here that includes rent, utilities, insurance, two car payments, and gas, but I only take home $1000 a pay period as a GS-07 and that is putting 15% in the TSP and I will still need to pay for food, clothing and other miscellaneous things, currently my wife takes home a little less than I so we are able to save some and pay down college bills. We don't live extravagantly we have two economy cars, one paid for, minimal credit card debt, we live in a small 800 square foot house and try to be as thrifty as possible.

I recently spoke to a hotshot superintendent who expressed that he wished he had invested more time in his family than away from home and that he now encourages his guys to take time to spend with family in the hope that their families won't follow the same fate as his. It is along these lines that I am considering leaving the agency because to stay I would have to depend upon overtime to provide for my family but sacrificing my time with them.

Three weeks ago I tested with a fire department back east whose firefighters start at the same rate as a captain here. A few days ago I received a job offer, so now I find myself in a dilemma as to what to do, continue doing what I love with the Forest Service and hope for a raise or start over and move across the country so that I can ensure that my wife and future family will be given the time and attention they need. I still do not know what I will do but hope that others might know of the difficulty involved in this decision and my wish that I would rather not have to make it at all.

Rad

Original Ab was awarded the Wildland Firefighter Foundation Humanitarian Award. I'm very proud of him and his contributions to wildland firefighter groundpounders everywhere. In his usual humble way, he gave credit to all of you who make his contribution possible. Original Ab, send in a photo! We want to see the statue! It's pretty sweet.

Vicki Minor got a mighty fine dramatic plaque from FWFSA made of sandstone. She should send in a photo of that one. She said it's the first award she's ever gotten. Yahoo! Congrats, Vicki!

Others got plaques too. Maybe Casey can remind us... Kent Swartzlander, and some old original FWFSA members who weren't able to attend and several honorees. We could add them to the fire awards page.

I had fun talking with the hotshots, engine capts, etc late into the night on Friday. (One of 'em was pretty sure I'm a spy, so I agreed. I might be a spy if I could just figure out who to sell all the secrets to! I could auction the "goods" on eBay...) Also enjoyed meeting all of you who post here and getting acquainted with spouses and kids.

Steve Griffin, very nice to meet you. I'm glad you don't think I'm a spy. BIG CONGRATS on being elected to Dan Kleinman's spot on the board. I'm sure you'll do us proud! Dan, thanks for your service. Sorry you're stepping down, but we have a new live one as a replacement.

Mellie

RG and Old Dude, I know the Forest Service doesn't have a pandemic business plan. Neither does BLM or NPS. Good question about when the Academy sends people home, RG... (Nerd, thanks for your input on fire department plans. I listened to your link last week. As far as projections, Osterholm has projections here at CIDRAP - pdf file - Ab.)

I do know that 25 of the largest business in the US/world got together last Friday with reps from H&HS to plan for the pandemic. Shearson Lehman preceded them by a week in their planning. I haven't heard what any of them came up with. I do know that business provides 85% of our national infrastructure -- as in food, water, medicine, essential services, fuel, energy, banking/investment, etc. To get through this incident whenever it comes and to rebuild most expeditiously, there must be a plan and contingencies in place for as many businesses as possible. People will continue to need the essentials. How to keep them coming??? What is essential that the FS, BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA does? Those things need to be defined and planned for.

Here's one good PANDEMIC BUSINESS PLAN I have recommended to several local NorCal businesses. Microbix is willing to share it with whomever wants to ask: www.microbix.com/1503.html

I already have most of the family and personal info and the ppe in the powerpoint I presented at FWFSA. However, I was lacking some of the info on this BUSINESS page: www.microbix.com/1503.html

The bottom of this page is also excellent. It brings practiced behaviors right down to earth with practical examples. www.microbix.com/150101.html
You could develop scenarios for at the office. Maybe there would be some logical places your safety officer could provide hand wipes, surface disinfectant, whatever else is needed to mitigate office infection - for as long as you need to physically be in the office.

(Hmmm, along the personal financial lines, I've got to think through which is the safest kind of investment for retirement funds... Most 401Ks let you choose the kind...)

Dan, I am honing the powerpoint I presented and getting permission for the maps from HN so as not to violate copyright. I'll let you know when the powerpoint with handout suggestions is ready to share. Maybe tomorrow or the next day.

Thanks to ALL - Abs included - for being the terrific people you are. I'm proud to count you among my friends.

Mellie

Nerd on the Fireline

Nerd, that Killer Flu show on PBS had a progression of infection timetable. Much more dramatic to see it in print...

I've been watching the news lately too. I think Sec. Leavitt (Health and Human Services) and Dr. Osterholm (DHS) know some things we don't and are trying to prepare us... Dr. Osterholm was on CNN this morning talking masks, food storage and his family's preparedness for 6-12 months. President Bush just met with Lee Jong-wook the director-general of WHO at the White House. Wonder what they talked about? Ab.

Is there a plan for when the Academy shuts down? If some
of the first bird flu enters SF from Asia, it will soon be in Sac.
If it comes this training season, we need to have some plans
in place to get our kids home.

I called the public schools. They are following the county's lead.
I called the county. They don't have a plan.

What do we do about suggesting our communities get ready.
We're a bit remote. If I speak up, they'll guess I have some extra
food. I don't want anybody knocking on my door when the
little markets shelves are bare. Cities will have it worst. my bet.

This could be more about the crisis of not enough food, medicine,
gas as about people sick and dying. What about law enforcement.
We saw Katrina. We saw the local bully boys holding up the fed
caravans going to the airport and hijacking resources. There
were finally LEOs that defended the orders that got thru. Bet no
sheriffs in this case or not enough.

Dan was right that the FLTs are not going to address forest communities
that need to get prepared. If they would have a community meeting, no
one individual would have to show up in the crosshairs of the
unprepared later. Bureaucracy gets in the way of forests taking a
lead.

Maybe we need to invite an outsider in to talk.

The more prepped our community is, the better for all.

Anyone know what businesses are doing?

RG

Re birdflu:

Bush was talking birdflu this morning on Foxxx. They're stepping it up.

Reported 3,000 birds with H5N1 dropped dead in Ukraine over the
weekend. The Ukrainian officials declared a "state of emergency" and
they're culling flocks.

Wife of a Chinese friend says there's a news blackout on bird flu in China
while one more case was officially declared.

I'm watching the news in a whole new way.

Thanks for the alert Mellie. I'm getting my family together tonight to
plan a town run to sams club and smart&final. We will get beans and
rice, but add some other canned and dried things too. Picking up some
galvanized trash cans for storage. Everyone is thinking and making lists.

We're telling the kids its like making Swiss Family Robinson plans.
Even they are into it. Thanks for that tip Mellie. Attitude is what its all
about.

Todd

It was a most *excellent* meeting. Nice job Casey and all. It was mighty fine to have significant others and kids in, out and about. Thanks to Casey's wife for her work and activities for the kids. Ab.

the 12/2 comment by Zimm was not me. I am quite familiar with the SEATs and what they do and where they are. In the future I will be BC Zimmerman.

thanks

Nope, you've been Zimm for longer than dirt. The other person will be zimm2. I changed the moniker. Ab.

R5er

Are the comm. Caches ready to clone the new narrow band digital radios. We
just finished switching around from BK to EFJ. When we show up will they
have what we need to clone for the fire.

Thanks
Zimm2

I believe that the recent hurricanes proved one thing quite clearly - the US is not even close to dealing with heavy impact emergencies. For years we have done a fine job of mobilizing an army to war, but we are always behind the power curve when it comes to fires, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, and epidemics. It's not that our emergency services are grossly inept, I believe that it is because our citizens are 95% clueless about how the natural world works and how our society's infrastructure interacts with the natural world around us. Just watch a Southern Californian drive in the snow and it becomes quite apparent that regular interaction with our environment teaches us humans about how to react when the conditions change around us. My first suggestion would be for every community in the US to have an evacuation plan that specifies travel routes, time frames and logistical support mechanisms to support a mass exodus. If a community is next to a large body of water, perhaps a system of barges/boats could be employed to relieve the congestion on the roads.

Aviation contractors need to be pre identified for SAR operations. Mobile hospitals need to be cached along with medical supplies, food and drinking water.

Bottom line- address the emergency before it arrives. Because the earthquake is coming to Southern California, the flood to Salt Lake City, the wildfire to Denver, the Tsunamis to Anchorage and the pandemic to everywhere in between. It's not a question of if but when. All of us know this instinctively. Why does the population as a whole fail to grasp the dynamic nature of life on planet earth? If a city lies below sea level- its going to flood. If a city lies on top of a twisted maze of earthquake faults the earth is going to fracture and shake. If you live in an area where the natural vegetation burns, you are going to have wildfires. If you have no natural resistance to disease, without medical intervention chances are good that you will die. Every community should take responsibility for developing their own comprehensive plans for dealing with disasters.

Ask your community about it's emergency response plans- the answer may surprise you.

Chicken Little's Brother
-Big Vulture