The Law of Air Guitar and others,

You bring up some good points. I think many in the wildland firefighting profession have been doing risk analysis for years and just never realized it. I also believe that some land managers have, and continue to do, risk analysis by sitting at their desks and making more rules for the fire program. Fire management, at least in the Forest Service, has a new doctrine that is having the bugs worked out of it.... a doctrine that takes many of us back to the times we started as a wildland firefighter.

Risk analysis is a key process in reaching the “Commander's Intent”, or “Leader's Intent” as found throughout the changes being addressed in Doctrinal Review. Probably the most important “intent” of today’s wildland fire mission is that each firefighter returns home safely after every assignment. That principle intent is “Fight fire aggressively but PROVIDE for SAFETY first.”

In Fire Suppression: Foundational Doctrine (USDA Forest Service, 2005), the following quotes may be useful in understanding the concept:

> Tom Harbour, Director of Fire and Aviation Management

“Let me open with a quote I like from Dee Hock (Visa founder): ‘Simple clear purpose and principles give rise to complex intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple stupid behavior.’ We are focused on defining those simple clear principles that will encourage complex intelligent behavior.”

> Mark Smith, Mission Centered Solutions

“Doctrine is the body of principles (not rules) that guides an organization’s activities and actions. A principle is the moral or ethical standard that forms the foundation of judgment, mode of action, decision, and behavior. Doctrine is the expression of the fundamental framework, concepts, and principles that guide the planning and conduct of operations. It is authoritative but flexible. Doctrine must be definitive enough to guide specific operation, yet adaptable enough to address diverse and varied situations.”

> Document Body

“Though the environment and the mission of the wildland fire fighter is demanding increased agility in decision making, the fire fighters’ ability to adapt and react has become more constrained. Fire line performance expectations have become increasingly rules-driven at the expense of addressing the fundamental human factors that lead to critical decision errors, delayed judgments, and improper actions.”

Now let’s get back to the point and use the sleeves up vs. down discussion as a basis for Doctrinal Review. Some posters believe that you should always have your sleeves down, while others believe it is appropriate for the supervisors to allow variation of the rule. Who is right? The answer is both, depending upon risk analysis and the “Commanders Intent”.

Risk analysis is something that is learned from experience and not the NWCG Risk Analysis Checklist. Using the risk analysis technique, a supervisor on a hotline assignment may determine that all the firefighters may need to have their sleeves rolled down to prevent burn injuries. They also may determine that sleeves need to be rolled down to prevent exposure to cuts from chaparral or exposure to poison oak. Contrarily, a supervisor using risk analysis under a different set of circumstances may determine the greatest threat of safety may be heat stress and allow his or her firefighters to roll their sleeves up. Both of the supervisors are meeting the “Commanders Intent”.

Before you jump to the keyboard for a reply, ask yourself these questions. Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, who wants people to come home each day or a commander that wants people to follow rules that may or may not apply to each situation found in the wildland firefighting environment? Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, using risk management, experience, and education to make the best decisions? Doctrinal Review is what it is all about.

Lobotomy

P.S. – I still can’t find a reason that someone would wear a shirt soaked in oil and exhaust, sleeves up or down, on or near the fireline. It exposes the wearer to both short term (fire) and long term (health) hazards…. God only knows what it exposes their families to.

Great comments a few days back..... Are you one of the REAL
Warthogs?? If so, one squeel (salute) for you.

RC

Thought it would be timely to let all of you know the current situation associated with NIMO. At the December meeting of the NFAEB, the following decisions were made:

• Recruit and fill 2 NIMO teams this year (Proposed location is the SE (Atlanta) and the West (Boise).
• Recruit and fill the NIMO coordinator position in Boise.
• Monitor the effectiveness of these teams in meeting objectives before filling any additional teams (annual decision by NFAEB).

A follow-up conference call was held on Jan. 24 with the Regional FS FAM

Directors where the following was shared by the WO (FAM):

• FS will fund the first two teams.
• Salaries will be paid from suppression.
• Outreach should begin with the month.
• Target for vacancy announcement is April.
• All available qualified personnel may apply (Temporary and Term positions - will be flown both Demo and agency wide) IPA's if needed will be used for non-fed partners.
• Looking at virtual offices to reduce moving costs and potential problems of establishing appropriate office space.

I'll keep you posted as I hear more, and Marc Rounsaville is planning on discussing NIMO at the annual meeting. Thanks, ML

Michael H. Lohrey
Incident Commander, PNW National Team 2
Chair, National IC/AC Group

JS

In the spring of 1968 I left home in my 57 Chevy for a helitack job, and asked my best friend to take care of my girlfriend. He took way too much care of her, impairing our friendship for-- always. On the other hand, I also happened to fall for a young lady, Kathy, that summer whom I met at the local dance hall with my helitack team. We had a wonderful romance and remained friends, but I ended up marrying Kathy’s best friend, Lynn, who I met at Kathy’s cabin the next summer while on the helitack team again. She was the most outgoing, gregarious and fun person I had ever met, the opposite of my own overly serious and introverted personality.

When I lead the hotshot crew in 1971 Lynn was right there with me and the crew, organizing softball games, playing cards with us, teaching the shy crew-members how to dance to the cowboy music. One evening after a fire we all went to the local bar- steak house- pool room- dance hall for dinner. I had picked up Lynn and showered. Many of the crew had not bothered to clean up. Lynn was beating most of the crew at pool when she asked some drunk lady to move a little so she could make a tight shot, but the drunk started a fight with her.

The crew and I broke up the cat-fight but in the process a local tough guy with a bad reputation slugged me in the side of the face and we got into it. Despite their impaired situational awareness, the crew had us quickly paralyzed with bear hugs, in a pile on the bar-room floor. We introduced ourselves as we suspiciously loosened our grips. The local tough guy apologized, saying he wouldn’t have hit me if he had he known who I was. We bought each other a beer and Lynn finished whipping the crew at pool.

Over that summer, unwittingly, Lynn did more to further our group dynamics and build crew cohesion than I could have ever done. Lynn became chronically ill from cystic fibrosis. Even during her many hospitalizations, her room was always filled with friends, flowers, card games and joy. When the doctors had done all they could, Lynn came home with grace, and died peacefully in our bed. This ended my connection to people I was with in the fire service. These were among the most exciting, challenging and romantic times of my life. I eventually remarried, raised a family and lived happily ever after, but I always remember with great fondness my time with the fire service, with my crew members, with the people I met along the way- always.

But tomorrow I will be up early to discuss fire law with a hundred hotshot supervisors from Regions 3, 8 and 9. An opportunity to meet with some of the best people on Earth- always.

Old Sawyer

Sweet. Ab.

Hi Ab,

Just a heads up on the fad of the LaSportiva boots that several are trying out. LaSportiva has a terrible warranty process. I purchased a pair of the Makalu and had a flaw in workmanship. Went to the retailer and they tried to replace the boot but the boots have to be sent back to LaSportiva and they decide if it warrants a repair, replacement, etc. Retailer even called the company and told them the boot was faulty and wanted to replace them. No way, the boot had to be sent in.

Next question- What do you do while you wait for them to decide? Do you have an extra pair laying around? I would stick with the firefighting boot companies that have always been there! I know of an example where a guys boots broke down on a fire. Called the boot company and a pair were sent overnight to the fire camp. No questions asked! So beware.

CS

Ab thanks for forwarding the feedback. Yeah, power lines...

I still see vehicles parked and staged, ICP's and DP's under power lines.
Some folks still need to look up once and a while.

Thanks for the input . . . .and the opportunity to ask.

Dave C

The final day for getting your prework to the r5 490 coordinator is fast
approaching. Please have it in by the 10th. And study hard, version 3
of behave plus.

Last year we had some folks claim that the turn around time for the
prestudy and prework is too quick, can I ask how fast you would
respond to a fire assignment?

And what else are people with this course on their training developmen
plan doing in January anyway?

Take care,
anotherdave

Iraqi health authorities go on bird flu alert
Five mobile hospitals with special equipment were due to arrive in northern Iraq later today.

HeeeEEEYYYYYyyyy!! I'm not THAT old! ..ok, well meb'be I am. Lets just say that we were still wearin' the old wide orange fire shelter at the time. And to be honest, of the 2 times that forbidden nectar was partaken of in inappropriate times in my career, I will say it was definitely never done in excess...we (the crew elders) wouldn't allow it. Just a nice cold one after a long day. RE the photo: Nope, that was a picture taken the morning after a crew get together. Completely legit.

OK, here is an anti "Always moment": After a particularly long shift (way before the 16hr limits of today), a group of crews finally made it into camp one evening.( I believe this was at the same Happy Camp that someone mentioned recently, but of course a different fire). We bellied up to the chow wagon in anticipation of some hot food and low and behold they were taking the sandwiches out of the remainder of the days sack lunches and grilling them up for us! GRRRRR. The regional guru at the time caught wind of it and the last I saw of him he was stomping off to some bigwig tent. By the time we got up the next morning a brand new caterer was moved in and set up ready to go. YEA!!!!!!

Pulaski

MS
MVU

His note:

Fellow Firefighters,

Today I end my firefighting career with CDF spanning some 48 years. I leave you
with my favorite axiom that applies not only on the fire line: “Only the spirit of attack
born in a brave heart will bring success on the fire ground.”

I got to live the dream!

Bill Clayton
Firefighter

Thoughts and prayers for Will's family and friends... sad day.

Mellie

Pulaski is not a young wip'er'snapper. I'm sure this was some looong years ago during his handcrew days... Wann'a fill us in on the year, P? Were these the remains? Ab.

Thanks for the information, Sandy. Condolences to Will's family, to you and your crew and to all who knew Will and called him friend. Please be safe everyone. Ab.

Former HS

Condolences. Ab.

“…The ‘design set of rules,’ written to meet the worst-case scenario
imagined, were bound to be interpreted as overly controlling and as an
unreasonable burden on operators in the field. In contingency language, the rules
didn’t match the situation most of the time.

"When the rules don’t match, pragmatic individuals adjust their behavior
accordingly; they act in ways that better align with their perceptions of current
demands. In short, they break the rules. According to General Carleton, the Task
Force Commander who took over after General Pilkington was relieved:
‘Violations of policy and guidance occur minute by minute out there. Some are
willful violations, but most are not.’…

"Such mismatches between the local demands of the situation and those of
global design rules occurred with increasing regularity as operators gained
personal experience in the field. As a result, the pervasive demands of day-to-day
practice inevitably shifted the logic of action from one based primarily on formal
rules, to one driven more tightly by the task—the ever-present demands of
minute-to-minute practice. Over time, the seductive persistence of pragmatic
practice loosens the grip of even the most rational and well-designed formal
procedures. I call this phenomenon ‘practical drift’—the slow, steady uncoupling
of local practice from written procedure…” (Snook 2000, p. 192-194)

I believe that it was this process of "Practical Drift" that people picked up on when watching the Discovery Channel series, and has led to such vociferous debate.

One other comment--
Many now have commented on how far wide of the mark the show has missed the "reality" of being on the line.  Small wonder, when the only way to capture the reality of being on a fire is to do it.  I would like to postulate that instead of capturing reality, the series has done a good job of capturing the flavor, or the spirit, of  the experience, which is all that the producers could really hope to do.  Food for thought.

Class C Sagebrush Faller

Glad you and your family made it Casey. Your house looks great. Lots of defensible space around it. Lots of room for those kids to grow up in too. Ab.

Our Fire Department is trying purchase through GSA. Our State does not allow it
unless we are covered by our Forest Fire Service. We are not.

So can anyone help with this?
Fire Chief John D'Ascensio

KCP,

I'm not ignoring you on the cancer and extreme athlete risk issues, just trying to
get a moment to reply. Thanks for the heads up on that issue.

Women extreme-athletes frequently have their hormones messed up which results
in cessation of menstruation. This is true of marathoners, gymnasts, and others like
wildland firefighters who engage in long-term, physically stressful training/working
regimens. Men probably are equally changed hormonally, there are just no markers
that give the outward sign.

If we add in other environmental stressors such as smoke and all the electronic gear
you carry on your bodies for long hours, I have no doubt that there's a toll (increased
"allostatic load") on the body that increases your risk for cancer.

Yep, I be thinking on it.

Mellie

“I think it is an unfortunate circumstance for wildland firefighters that duty calls for more than what the job description says. It might be the bird flu, a terrorist attack, or the next big California quake. Fairly or unfairly - with or without proper training or equipment - "green pants" are expected to respond.”

There are several different definitions for the word “duty” in the dictionary. If you are referring to the definition of duty as something that must be done for moral reasons, then I agree that I will probably count myself among the thousands of “green pants” who will answer the all-risk call when it comes again. As we know it surely will.

But there is another definition of duty, in which both parties have obligations through previous agreements, that is not presently being met by the federal land management and disaster management agencies. I currently work in a secondary wildland firefighter position, my primary job is something else. There is no mention of all-risk in my job description. Officially, no one has ever told me that I must respond to all-risk incidents. I have received zero training in all-risk.

On the fire side, I have a ton of training I’ve received over the years. I pretty much know the risks in wildland fire and feel that it is a reasonable bargain to take these risks, even though I have seen dozens of friends and acquaintances die during my career. In return for what I give and risk when I work on fires, I make a living and derive satisfaction from this work. I accept that it is my duty to be a wildland firefighter and to respond as such when called.

So are you implying that my previous obligation and agreement to be a wildland firefighter means that I must now also expose myself to EXTREMELY hazardous environments and chaotic civil circumstances without any renegotiation of that agreement? It seems to me that if our government wants to use us in a capacity for which we are not trained, then they have a DUTY TO US to tell us up front that they want us to perform these missions, what we are expected to do on these missions, to tell us about the risks of these missions, and to pay, equip, and train us appropriately.

All-risk at least deserves hazardous duty pay, don’t you think?

The latter definition of duty is the one I have been using.

By the way, as much as I respect Jim Cook, Jim Saveland’s excellent paper from the 2005 Wildland Fire Safety Summit “Integral Leadership and Signal Detection for High Reliability Organizing and Learning” indicates there has been no real recent downward trend in entrapment fatalities. Here’s the link:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Saveland.pdf

EMBO,

You old far*, it was really good to see your post on They Said. What dark hole have you been hiding in?

Misery Whip

Stanford to begin human tests of bird flu vaccine

Stanford Medical Center is already recruiting research volunteers so they can begin the screening process. They are looking for healthy adults between the ages of 18 and 64 to take part in the experimental testing. The phone number to volunteer is (650) 498-7284.

They just posted the trial on their website. http://vaccines.stanford.edu/clinical_trials.html

A randomized, placebo-controlled, Phase I/II, dose-ranging study of the safety, reactogenicity, and immunogenicity of intermuscular inactivated influenza A/H5N1 vaccine with different adjuvants in healthy adults

• SUMMARY: The emergence of the avian influenza virus strains in human populations outside of the U.S. has added urgency to ongoing efforts to develop plans for responding to potential world-wide outbreak. Three influenza pandemics have occurred during the last century. This study is sponsored by the NIH and will help us compare the safety and immune response of varying doses of an avian influenza vaccine, either alone or when combined with adjuvants (substances designed to enhance immunity). The vaccine will be administered to healthy adults by intramuscular injection in the arm as two doses, given one month apart.
• The study will involve one screening visit and six clinic visits over a 7-8 month period. At the first and third clinic visits, subjects will receive an avian flu vaccine given in one of 8 possible combinations. It is also possible (1 chance in 9) that subjects will receive a placebo vaccine. A blood sample will be taken at each of the screening and clinic visits. Subjects will receive reimbursement for completed study visits ($30.00 per visit). There will be no costs for participation.
• ELIGIBILITY: We are enrolling healthy adults who are 18 to 64 years of age.

FOR MORE INFORMATION: Please contact the Stanford-LPCH Vaccine Program at (650) 498-7284.

Enrollment may close quickly, so please call as soon as possible if interested

(For further information regarding your rights as a participant, please call 1-866-680-2906 or write the Administrative Panel on Human Subjects in Medical Research, Administrative Panels Office, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-5401.)

Mellie

Once again, thanks to all involved. Ab.

The closest fire camp to the movie Always that I have experienced in 32 years of fighting fire with the CDF was the Lexington Fire in the mid 1980’s.

The fire camp was set up at a park and along with the standard feeding arrangements; there were “portable” food kitchens like the kind you would see at a State Fair. They had pizza, snow cones and the other usual Fair Food, there was an AT&T area set up so firefighters could call home, all at no cost! They even provided Massage Tables (quite the line for the service) to ease the fire fighters sore muscles. Of course we slept on the ground….but the rest of the camp was pretty amazing.

With the bag lunches the next day, came the biggest surprise. I was supervising an Inmate hand crew at the time, and when I opened my lunch to see the contents, was surprised to find a Budweiser in the bag! The Captains quickly checked the other lunches and lo and behold each of the brown bags contained a Bud!

Firefly

You were expected to be "older bud'wiser"? Ab.

1. Do smokejumpers ever get the chance to fight bigger and more complex fires like the ones that the Hotshot’s are shown fighting?
2. After watching the show, I am beginning to see the hierarchy. Hotshot’s big fires, Smokejumpers little fires. How many years do you have to be a smokejumper before you can graduate to the ranks of Hotshot? (Do you have to have experience before you become a smokejumper? skydiving, camping, hiking etc.)
3. Is it common for Smokejumpers to not have tools when fighting fire? Or did I miss something on the last episode of the show?
4. Are there any Hotshot crew’s near Walla Walla, WA (my home town)?

I play a wicked air guitar and have been practicing an air guitar version of Whitney Houston’s “I will always Love you.”

Sincerely,
Johnny Wannabe-a-hotshot

HAW, HAW, HAW great trolling. Ab.

I did not change Ken's name to initials (as I do with ALL posts) because we know Ken already. If you want a pic to go with the name, scroll back to one of the last posts on the 2x52 mile run. Yeah, he helped raise mega-bucks for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation last year. Ab.

EMBO

Sign up NOW!

OB

The FWFSA website is being revamped. It's easy to sign up. Ab.

The Wyoming Office of State Lands and Investments, Forestry Division, is currently recruiting supervisors and crewmembers for the Wyoming Helitack Crew for the 2006 Fire Season. See their announcement on the Jobs Page.

Ab.

Welcome RP, glad something pushed your button. I think the process here has been just ducky. People state their mind, people re'butt, we come to some common understanding, even the ones who cited safety issues at the beginning have a differen't perspective, I'll bet. We're all watching avidly. The Public is tuning in. My guess is they'll run the show again the next time fire hits the news. We're getting waaaay too much email from young people wanting to be wildland firefighters - hotshots and smoke jumpers. Better the show aired now when they can actually apply for firefighting jobs and work their way up to hotshot or SJ caliber and experience. Gives 'em some time to practice their air guitar too. (I finally retired mine, but I loved that thing.) Ab.

Welcome RJM. Ab.

Undoubtedly it will be what it will be, but I think the conditions in the SW are set up for a very active season there. Kibby said no rains for the last 100 days. Maybe no rains until the monsoon? Could be a year like 1996 in the SW . If so, could be exciting. Be safe! Ab.

I know all personnel were out of there because I was the one to make sure of it. As for the drop, I did forget to mention that there was a considerable amount of old punky snags burning and had requested a few low drops, you know aerial tree falling. One thing about the show is a least they have shown interest in our profession.

Socal Cap
P.S. What type of plane do you fly?

Sounds like a good experience. My closest to "Always" was Seiad Valley in
1987. Community really took care of us. Camp was there for a long time.

Things I saw:

Large screen television brought in to watch the baseball playoffs.

JiffyPop available to crews to cook over the camp salamanders at night.

There was a townhall dance/band one evening.

R&R was arranged to go to Medford, but IC allowed the crews that wanted
to stay in place and just relax for two days. Locals provided free "guide"
service for salmon fishing......I remember a type 2 crew from Tennessee
member caught a 20 pound salmon. He said it was the experience of a
lifetime for him. Another local traded him a smoked salmon for his fresh
caught, so there was a special treat at dinner that night.

Never did catch up with Holly Hunter though....

Old Fire Guy

AV

Hi there,

I was interested in learning more about the Smokejumpers here in Central
Oregon. I saw on the "They Said" portion of your website a Redmond,
Oregon smokejumper by the name of Gary Atteberry, is there any way to
get in touch with him? I have many questions about being a smokejumper
and would like to know more. Thank you for your help and have a great
day!

Deanna

There's a smokejumpers' forum here: www.smokejumpers.com/ You can always find that link on our links page.
Here's some info on what smokejumpers do and a sj base contact list: www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/index.html
Now don't you go botherin' Gary. (gosh, the unexpected effects of stardom!) Ab.

By the way.....the t-shirt post reminded me.

I thought a neat way to raise a few extra bucks for the run would be to sell advertising on my shirt. If any hotshot, helitack, etc crews out there want...send me a patch, and I will sew it on my shirt for the run. This shirt currently is on the wall in Boise at the WFF and will be returned there after this event.

Right now, There's a Fulton HS and generic Smokejumper patch. Texas Canyon and Bear Divide will get a spot (fee waived for running with me last year).

If anyone is interested, I thought a flat rate of $20.00 would be cool, huh? I'm a pretty little guy so space is limited. Although there will be two shirts (night and day).

If you folks think this is a good idea, I will give my home address to Ab.

Later, KCP

Little guy?... big heart. Take care of that knee. Ab.

The t-shirt collection is just about complete; only lacking two shirts from having all of them that are currently in the system  along with some real treasures. Still missing Mt. Taylor and Vandenberg.

Anyway I wanted you to know that the book of stories connected with the shirts is coming along. I try and write in it every week and Mellie is going to help... Hopefully to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

Someone asked me the other day what I was going to do when I had all the shirts collected. Well I found quite a few older shirts, so I guess I will try and find them... with stories...

There are 133 in the collection currently displayed on the wall at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. That's amazing!!!! I would also like to invite everyone who gets to Boise to check them out at the foundation. They have been quite a hit according to Vicki.

Rowdy

List of shirts still needed:

Current shirts:

Mt. Taylor
Vandenberg

Older shirts:

Here's the page of shirts Rowdy has with the people who gave them to him... and links to 2 photos of the wall. Seeing is believing and it's even more awesome to be there exercising all the senses. Ab.

Wish they would show more equipment on the line and less close ups of the flames and sparks. The camera man and cutting room is sure doing its best to make it look like the people and trucks are in those flames! Funny how a camera can zoom into a hot spot and make it look like it is all around you. You see some crews totally dressed for fires and some not. Like they are two different groups on the same fire? Still seems to be a lot of safety issues in PPE but this film is designed for drama and action shots.

Looking forward to the next one but most of all it is getting me pumped up for the 2006 fire season! I wish our snow would melt faster and summer was here!

Region 6

Just a quick note on the low drop by the S-2.

Two factors:

• First, the shot was taken with a telephoto lens and looks a lot
  lower than it really is... low yes but:
• ALL fire personnel were out of the drop zone while the aircraft
  applied the retardant and because of the canopy closure the
  planes have to get lower for effective penetration.

Remember 10s&18s & LCES...

Socal Cap

Just call this community "reliable" for coming up with intel. Ab.

Quite an amusing portrait of wildland firefighting....
The air guitar dude on Prineville was sure cool. Speaking of Prineville-
Good critique about tree falling- it is important to not drop trees on your fellow firefighters.
And I hope the burn heals up on that other guy.
You guys need to remember to whistle whenever you carry your handtools on your shoulders!
At least then when you fall on your handtools you will do so cheerfully.
One or two instances of these things might not matter, but when taken in its entirety, maybe it's time for
Prineville to take a long look into its soul. "Cool" only matters to mindless spectators -it has no place on the fireline. I know -this stuff happens to us all, no need to expect different.
Neither should we expect anything to change in the death and injury stats which heap ever more
liability and checklists on those of us who manage this mess.
I don't need to hear any sniveling about the "twisted media", I have been around the block enough to realize what was sensational hallucination and what was crew attitude during this exclusive TV extravaganza.
By next summer, maybe Prineville's standards will match our expectations of what a Type 1 Crew is supposed to be. I sure hope so.
Until then thanks for the entertainment.
To the jumpers- Howie Long would be proud.
PS-Where do I get one of those green hard hats?

Old, Pissed Off Warthog

(chuckle) Warthog, if yer serious about the green Bullard, Supply Cache has them. Click the sponsor banner at the top of the page. Ab.

Anyone know how to reach Doug? Ab.

Of course we'll work together. Wouldn't miss the fun. OA, Vicki and Melissa have had their heads together on various projects for the last few days. I don't doubt this one has been discussed at least in passing. Ab.

"Attitudes and leadership are universal factors that influence safe fire suppression. The Interagency Management Review Team should explore actions that will strengthen sensitivity to basic safety standards so they permeate every fiber of our strategy, tactics, and basic fire operations."

Perhaps we're getting close to reaching that goal. Certainly there is a "sensitivity to basic safety standards" that was not evident a decade ago. Not every fiber is permeated yet, but enough to cause the firestorm over the Firestorm program.

vfd cap'n

ps, I've missed both episodes because of station meetings, but my father has been impressed by the gritty portrayal of life on the fireline.

I was jumping out of MSO when the movie was made. They actually paid the FS for some practice jumps on the Koonai during a control burn to simulate a fire jump but none of the footage ever made it to the screen. I'm older than most, not as old as some, but I can remember the days (35+ years ago) when carrying a flask on the line was common, as was beer in the fire camps, and driving govt vehicles to the bars when on project assignment. The Alaska fire service used to provide shuttle service to the various entertainment centers in downtown FBX. I don't suppose they still do that?

Joe Hill

Better rush right out to the WFF, or swing by the monument or the wildland firefighter statue at the Boise Airport. He's been helping out at the Foundation over the last few days while enjoying the warm, sunny balmy weather (tongue firmly in cheek, brrrrr)... If you see him, give him a yah'hoo; bet it would surprise the pants off him. This message will self-destruct in about two hours! (hawhaw)

Ab. (while the Original Ab-ster's away, the other Ab will play!)

I think we need to look at the positive aspects of this program. I've worked on fires for many years as a smokechaser, helitak, and as a jumper. I now work as an information person. I've been involved with many different fire projects such as escorting film crews to fires, working as a consultant/editor with authors, and as a technical advisor on a couple of major feature films. Let me say this. It's all for public viewing and entertainment.

Also, no author, director/screenwriter gets it right or perfect. Ask anyone in any given profession that have had their work portrayed in a feature film, book or documentary, what they think about the finished product. The majority of professionals will scoff at what they've seen and that's just human nature. We're all very serious about what we do regardless of our jobs. We all want to be portrayed as honestly as we can and it's normal for us to criticize those people who put in thousands of hours of hard work and effort trying and believing they are doing us justice. Well maybe these media folks don't get it just right. Maybe we and the millions of viewers including our elected Senators and Representatives (think budgets here) are looking through a very brief window into what exactly it is we professionals are trying to accomplish. Newspaper reporters rarely get the story straight either, but the next day their story is on the bottom of the birdcage.

What we are experiencing now with these various media is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Three years ago I had a very pushy fellow from CNN tell me he was going to become embedded with smokejumpers for an entire summer. He also told me he had skydiving experience and his plan was to jump into fires so he could report on these jumper fires "Live" to the American public. I explained our policies and hopefully educated this wayward guy in what exactly he could or could not do. He still didn't budge and indicated that he had been in Iraq and embedded with various military units with, "hot lead flying everywhere." Much to his dismay, I told him it wasn't going to happen. We professionals, working as public servants need to help these media folks and educate them as best as we can. Just because they have agendas doesn't mean they're headed in the right direction.

As for the safety aspects of "Into the Firestorm." I always had my gloves, fireshelter, hardhat, and Nomex with me, but I couldn't always wear it all at the same time. Certain things can get in the way of work.

Have a safe and great 2006.

FF-49

I enjoyed the show last night. Had no interest in rewinding and throwing it in slow'mo' to see who was wearing what, when. Ab.

J

Well, don't wait too long. It's likely on a RipVanWinkle timeframe. You can always check the Hot List Forum on this site under FireNews. Lot'sa action there! And the team lists that are available via our FireLinks page under fed'ral. Ab.

Firefighter Charged With Arson in Nevada

Got this from a firefighter friend who asked what might be done ahead of time to help:

... this family of firefighters... we need to stick together and start helping the
people that are about over the edge. I don’t know if talking to people thinking
this way would help, but could it? I'm having a hard time with this.

I want to know, if we can identify people who might be prone to arson, could we help
them avoid that behavior?

Firescribe

Keith

I hope everyone can watch the next 4 episodes for there pleasure and if not, I suggest that you read a good book. Enjoy them, because I will be greatly surprised if any fire crew will ever let a film crew shoot footage again.

b

I, for one, hope that's not the case. Ab.

It is a statistical fact that flying to and from a fire is actually safer than driving. Parachuting is considered so safe the Smokejumpers are not entitled to Hazard Pay for their jumps, no glamour there. If the agency practiced true statically based risk management every fire would be jumped. It's a statistically safer means of delivering firefighters to a fire.

Bsel

Air guitar. Ab.

Thanks, JJ. Ab.

Gary and RR make good points and having worked with them for the last 5 years I can tell you that they are safe and very competent jumpers. I would love to write more, but I think they did a good job expressing my feelings and concerns in fire. Plus if I keep going it may turn into personal attacks at some of the stupid things people have written.

To the person wanting to know how they made it to the echo mountain fire.....The film crew hired an ex-jumper to help them navigate through the woods and keep them safe on the fire line. It was good timing and allot of running through the woods.

Watch the show and take it for what it is A SHOW! and please stop wearing your leather gloves clipped to your belt loop in the bar.

jh

I'm looking forward to tomorrow night's show. I think this series is a very good thing. I am willing to participate in such a show. If I did, the things to be discussed would probably be similar to what is being discussed this time around.

Just Another Firefighter,
I was not implying that the "Into the Firestorm" series should be a training film. I wasn't even suggesting that it was perfectly realistic in every detail. The flavor was realistic. I appreciate Gary's and RR's clarifications. What they said was what I thought likely about how it happened and what got focused on. I just felt that Squib was a bit strong on the 'I don't do this and I don't do that'. I was trying to keep the discussion about 'the what, not the who' so I didn't mention his name in that context. Sorry if I was unclear. Overall I don't think anyone needs defending (or vilifying (sp?)).

I have my tivo set to record for tomorrow... fire and bird flu

NorCal Tom

I acknowledge it's the northern winter and the quiet time up there allowing for
introspection, however things are still happening in the rest of the world..

Firefighters mourn their loss

OB

Our condolences OB. No man is an island. The world is small. Please give our best to friends and family of Trevor Day if you have the opportunity. Do you have an address where we can send our condolences? Ab.

OK I see your point, but let's keep this in perspective. Experience plays into common sense decision-making and into depth of situational awareness. You may have it, others who are younger, don't.

What about the new firefighters, say 18-22 year olds, who are without much fire experience and haven't had the "licks" that show them they're not invincible? They don't yet have those "watchout" common-sense slides in the mental slide tray. Say they don't wear their gloves or they don't roll down their sleeves when they logically should.

Some do push the limits their squaddies and supts set. It gets old fast when you have to ride herd on those who don't have the experience to ride herd on themselves. That's why the culture of safety is critical and should be modeled from the top down. As "old Alvord" once said, parents usually don't let kids play in the street on their own until they've done it for some time under the watchful eye and common sense of an older brother or sister. The experienced ones model and explain to the younger. If they violate a logical safety standard, they explain why.

So I'll add to what you said. You need to be aware of the message you send when you don't wear a shelter or other PPE. It may be common sense and safe to you. To the inexperienced and without your explanation, it may not be the same message.

NorCal Tom

Oprah Winfrey is going to have Dr. Michael Osterholm (sp?) on her show tomorrow talking about the coming bird flu pandemic. Today my daughter (east coast) told me her topic was terrorism. At the end of today's show, she set things up for tomorrow. She said:

"I URGE you to watch tomorrow's show and prepare to
have your eyes opened in a HUGE way. It may be one
of the most important shows we've ever done."

I can't watch it until I get home tomorrow, but I'm set up to tape it. I hope everyone who can watch it will watch. If you firefighters don't want to watch Oprah, get your Significant Other to watch and ask her/him some questions afterwards. I need to order my N-95 masks tonight, before the run on them.

Hotshot's mom

They sure taught me well -
grl4ster

Haw haw, we all are subject to that knee jerk. We Abs got together night before last. Reading over the replies, we were both ready to rush to the keyboard willy nilly to toss in our 2 cents worth! Ab.

Many thanks for the context. Ab.

Some look down on a Contract Tender Operator, but I am driving a 42,000 lb truck around people and on roads not really intended for a truck this size. I have to pay 100% attention to what I am doing at all times or it would be real easy to kill someone, roll the truck or block your escape route getting stuck!

I get very tired by the end of the day working the clutch, climbing on and off the truck and dragging a 30 ft long 3 inch draft line out of a river. There are many times I wish I could walk for a while or stand in one spot in the shade. My PPE is always with in reach outside the truck. If I get off the tender to walk away from it, I put it on. It is required to do this any time I am on the fire line.

My job does not end after 12 hours I also have to inspect the truck for any damage, check fluids, rocks between the duels, clean the glass to see better and make sure I top the fuel off. I feel I do a very important job on fires filling engines, wetting down roads and landing areas for helicopters. This keeps engines on the line instead of driving to a water source to draft it. I fill many other types of fire fighting equipment that is also used, that holds a lot more than 2-300 gals of water. My providing you with water makes your job easier and much safer. 

I respect your job and please respect mine. Do your best to follow all safety rules when out there. Try to be as professional as you can, to reflect a image that we are there to do a job and do it right.

As the 2006 Fire Season begins, take a look at yourself before you respond. You are a Fire Fighter and be proud of it!

Willy-N

After watching the “Into the Wildfire” show this week on
the discovery channel I would like to applaud the Prineville Hotshots
and Redmond Smokejumpers for allowing this film crew into their
program last summer. In this day and age of decreasing budgets,
public awareness of what these crews and others do thru the
course of a fire season is nothing but beneficial in getting the
word out to the public about what we actually do.

After reading some of the comment on this post I am frankly
disgusted with the amount of negative posts over the show . As a
fire fighter community, I would think that as a whole it would
embrace a show on this nations wildfire program rather than look at
it as an opportunity to find fault. As a veteran of 27 years as type
I fire fighter and as Type III IC, I see no safety violation in a
fire fighter setting down their pack while mopping up as long as
it's within reach or in taking off their gloves to perform tasks.

These programs openly let these film crews in to document them
on a daily basic for over four months. I wonder how some of the
critics would have faired under the same scrutiny. Hundreds of hours
of film was shot to arrive at the final cut, cropped, and edited
version that fit the film makers version of reality and entertainment.

R6 Fire Fighter

Good comments. Thank you, but please, Sagebrush Faller, let's keep this at the real dialog level. We can do this if we stay away from belittling personal comments directed toward people with a different viewpoint. Let's keep the discussion to issues: we owe this to each other, same as on the fireline if we had differing opinions regarding safety. I don't know any risk-averse "pumperbunnies"; we all want to do the job safely. Let's not put people with differing viewpoints in some category so we can dismiss them. (And what's this picking on engine crews??? (tongue firmly in cheek))

For the most part, readers don't know exactly who posts here, their level of experience, training, age, employment with which agency or organization, their volunteer status, whether handcrew, enginecrew, supervisor or grunt. We need that anonymity so people can speak honestly. HUTCH for one is using his real name -- Tom Hutchison. He retired a while ago after being a Type I IC for many years, including through the Storm King tragedy.  He is a highly-respected wildland firefighter and was a highly respected wildland firefighter supervisor, focused on safety under the most awful circumstances. He is not risk-averse, but does have risk in mind every moment. No pumperbunny there...

Let me also point out that most who post here are focused on wildland firefighter safety. We're just not agreed on how to achieve it (or different buttons have been pushed based on our emotional experiences and training and we're posting from a glass half full rather than a glass half empty position).

The real safety questions come down to

• Is it always rules and regs, ie, policy? even when policy is contradictory or vague? and rules don't make sense in the real moment? or
• Is it training wildland firefighters to the level that they and their supervisors make the right choices for the given situation?

This goes to the heart of the matter of Doctrinal Change, professionalism, common sense, leadership -- all that -- as Lobotomy, 6 and others have pointed out. Some who are retired have not been privy to the discussions going on at all levels regarding how this shift in organizational climate and leadership can be achieved. This is a dialog that needs to occur so that ALL wildland firefighters understand. It took the military 25 years to make this shift.

I think we're doing pretty well as I scrutinize the full-ness of the glass; we could and need to do better as I scrutinize the empti-ness of the glass. As we go through this process, we need to really see ourselves as we are, demand better, model it, and talk about it.

Please, let's view these filmed pieces of Discovery Channel firefighting (reality?) in the light of both a celebration of wildland firefighting and as an "After Action Review" and let's appreciate the honesty in which they're offered. We have a great opportunity to learn. I thank the Agency for not squelching or micromanaging or censoring in its infancy this sharing of wildland firefighter life. I thank those crewbosses and others who took the risk to make these first steps toward dialog on Doctrinal Review. Thanks also to Ed Hollenshead and others in Boise and across the country for their work on this re-definition.

Ab.

Thank you for the breath of fresh air! I agree with your take 100%.
Use the matter between your ears and behind your eyes.

“Another CDF BC”

“…trust is built by congruence between word and deed at all levels. ..without trust and mutual respect among leaders and subordinate leaders, a large organization will suffer from a combination of poor performance and low morale."

“The bad example set by Col Holland had begun to be emulated by junior and impressionable officers, and had resulted in one near disaster…”

"We can't have that, we can't tolerate things like that, we need to take action for two reasons--it's unsafe and we have a perception problem with the young aircrews."

“Red flags of warning were abundant-- and yet those who could act did not do so, in spite of recommendations to ground Bud Holland. As one B-52 crewmember said about the accident, "You could see it, hear it, feel it, and smell it coming. We were all just trying to be somewhere else when it happened."

“But there are also those aviators, usually of high experience, skill, and confidence, who see this built in flexibility as a chaotic environment which may be manipulated for their own ends--often with tragic results.”

The most tragic and compelling thing about the B52 lessons learned is quoted in the last paragraph of the study. It says,

“The crash of Czar 52, like most accidents, was part of a chain of events. These events were facilitated through the failed policies of several senior leaders at the 92d Bomb Wing. These failures included an inability to recognize and correct the actions of a single rogue aviator, which eventually led to an unhealthy comm and climate and the disintegration of trust between leaders and subordinates. However, in most aircraft mishaps, the crash is the final domino to drop in the cause and effect chain of events. In this case, however, scores of young and impressionable aviators "grew up" watching a rogue aviator as their role model for over three years. They remain on active flying status in various Air Force wings, passing along what they have learned. Because of this, the final domino in this chain of events may not yet have fallen.”

Let’s stop the “dominoes” from falling in the firefighting business, and stop justifying that which is unjustifiable.

---TIRED OF EXCUSES

BSEL

Service First Document

Pull your heads out of the sand! The documentary, while it may have shown some "infringements," is still well put together. If any of you can seriously say that you have followed ALL of the safety practices that you say you have then I guess you are far better than me. I think Lobotomy has the the best and most "realistic," input thus so far. Now on the the third morning of a rappel fire, I honestly do not see myself, or my firefighters wearing all of their line gear while we "potato patch," a fire before calling it out. To those of you crying foul at this, I would then expect you to wear your full PPE while engaged in this activity... but, wait how will you feel the hot spots with your gloves on? We must all gauge the level of comfort, and Situational Awareness on our assignments, and then hopefully come to a prudent decision on how we go about our tactics, and how the job can get most efficiently done... just like these folks have shown in the first installment of this series. The rules are just that, the rules... but, they allow for our interpretation sometimes on different situations. God bless the "cavemen/women," in us all.

NZ Helitack

Leaders We Would Like to Talk To – Paul Gleason

I thank those crews who participated and others who were involved in the creation of
the show. It's real, it has life and integrity. It can be used for teaching, sure, and
it informs. Is it PERFECT? Y E S! We're not born knowing it all. When we get tired
or feel pressed and stressed, human factors can lead to unsafe acts. Here's an example
worthy of debate. How do we mitigate? How does someone learn and demonstrate
that they've got it? This show is not PC or bullshit, contrived or censored. It's real!
Like theysaid, it's real! Still deserves debate if you want to, like you're doing so lessons
can be learned. I think it's too easy to fob it off on "attitude".

My non-fire family and friends who saw it said they have a better idea of what firefighters
do -- the warts, the need for renewed vigilance by sawyer and crew who was below, the
dirty shirts, the fun and all. Heard several comments on how refreshing it was that there's
active teaching/learning being shown on tv. Lessons that, if not learned will continue to
endanger lives... Policy or not, we're not born knowing it all.

Comment I liked best from the youth in my family who saw it: "Wow, this is interesting...
Excellent - way beyond any stupid kind of reality show."

Mellie

"...you seem to be defending evidence (caught on tape) of apparent unsafe acts (in the form of willful violations of policy), preconditions for unsafe acts (in the form of substandard practices), and unsafe supervision (in the form of inadequate supervision.)".

Go back and read what I have said entirely. You will find that no place in my posts had I condoned unsafe acts... in fact it has been just the opposite.

As someone said before, it is hard to write and express tone and inflection. How about if I had written "Yes, there may have been some minor safety violations, but I can guarantee that any smokejumper who wasn't wearing their shelter had it within a few feet of the camera.... and any hotshot not wearing their gloves also had a reason....(tongue in cheek).

Or if I had written, "I thought the premiere was an excellent depiction of hotshots and smokejumpers...(tongue in cheek).

MAW, You said,

"Lobotomy, I've always enjoyed your intelligence but unless you know something we don't about the next 2 installments, like ALL of these safety VIOLATIONS will be addressed, I've lost respect for your intellect. Please, apply that brain power to creating change for the better, not protecting the "best", but not the brightest. Perhaps the WO & Region 6 will require these crews to submerge themselves in Fireline Leadership."

MAW, what I said to GGfire goes to you also. Why bag on something that is obviously going to improve the safety of both the Prineville H.S. and Redmond jumpers, and indirectly countless others who are possibly doing the same things and just never got caught on film? If those unsafe acts didn't show up on the documentary, there is a good potential that they would continue into this fire season.

Lobotomy

Yes, most of us were quick to pick up and point out the obvious deficiencies in safety practices. I am very surprised with those that defend these practices as being acceptable because there is some reason for it. When I mentioned changing the culture, this was a significant portion of the safety message in the Forest Service since 1994 and South Canyon. It is apparent that some feel the message was intended for others but not themselves. Wearing of PPE is part of that mindset wear it all the time on every fire and wear it properly. This included having it serviceable which means clean, and in good repair as well as agency approved. Isnt this covered in basic fire fighter training? Gloves, yep I hate them too for all the same reasons however they belong on the hands not the belt, pack or pocket when fighting fire. Cold trail and hand feeling are the exceptions, hand feel with the back of the hand right? Agency policy is very clear, and employees failure to comply places those employees and supervisors at risk for discipline and OSHA citations. This is an indicator of the professionalism of the employees just as dress, appearance, and actions. It was pointed out in GGfires post that wildland firefighters want to be considered "professionals" yet I see their actions, comments and appearance as saying something different. If the wildland firefighters of Forest Service want greater respect they need to change and start acting the part. I am not saying that ALL of them act this way, a vast majority are professional acting, appearing and performing. However it is those that are not that draw the attention and are perceived as "the way it really is" by the viewing public.

HUTCH

Hutch, read some of the posts above this one. Ab.

"I thought the premiere was an excellent depiction of hotshots and smokejumpers.... does anyone know if they cover any other aspects of wildland firefighting such as engines, helitack, and incident management?"

They did shoot SoCal Team 3 briefing the nightshift on BDF's Blaisdell Fire near Palm Springs while trailing the Mill Creek Hotshots....don't know if this ended up on the editor's cutting room floor or not.

John

Today I was very close to sending a e-mail to my friends in the F.S. W.O. F&AM group expressing my frustration with this. I too spent portions of today's classes in the College where I teach discussing the irresponsible actions shown on this program with students in Wildland fire classes, and will repeat the same discussions tomorrow with other classes. The fortunate thing is that kids in class with one or more fire season recognized these bone head actions by "the best of the best?" Sad statement on the professionalism of these "best of the best".

HUTCH

bs

The announcer said it would follow the same crews but also move to CA next week.

In CA it's on at 10 on Discovery Channel. Don't know if it's on earlier as well.

Good reporting of the lumps and the bumps, the lessons learned as well as the dirt. All but the smoke and the smell.

NorCal Tom

This is the first of a series.

Mellie

Thanks, please get back to me.
Dan

LV

Look here: www.wfap.net/index.html You can always find it on the Links page under training and education. Ab.

Finally the State put in fire restrictions, but not enough as normal for New Mexico. They
never think ahead that it is easier to lift them than it is to put them in. We are so damn dry
in the central parts of the State.

I ask all of you fellow New Mexicans to email and call the Governor’s office and ask them
to add all the counties that do not get any rain out of this storm.

Thanks,

Jeff C

www.emnrd.state.nm.us/ restrictions<snip>.pdf (pdf file)

It would, however, be a GREAT day to be in the duck blind with some hot coffee and some brown cough syrup.

lips

Where is here, roughly? Ab.

Excellent job.
Mellie

Which site are you listening to for CDF LNU?

Allen

This bird flu thing scares me too, mostly for my sons who are cytokine storm age and for all of you.

I have some ideas.

• Make your personal and family food, water, meds preparation as best you can.
• Begin to work on your fire department right now to come up with a pandemic plan, including
  1. definition of scope of duties and which ones are essential
  2. cross training for essential duties for if someone is out of commission for a time
  3. sufficient supply of PPE for 3 waves of 4-6 weeks each. Stockpiling masks is important because they will not be available when everyone wants them. All employees are entitled to a safe work environment. You are entitled to PPE.
  4. supply of antivirals (tamiflu, relenza, amantidine). The strain of birdflu in Turkey is amantidine sensitive (ie not resistant to the antiviral amantidine) - gene sequencing shows this is so. Amantidine, unlike tamiflu, it is generic, inexpensive, and available if your fire department can purchase it now... and presuming that the Turkey strain is the one that goes pandemic, which at this moment is an unknown.
  5. guidelines for staying home when you or your family members are sick; people who are sick must stay home.
  6. guidelines and training to minimize contamination risk to your family. This is donning PPE and taking it off and disposing of it, taking a disinfecting shower.

I went to our county health emergency preparedness (pandemic flu) meeting today of all the leaders in the county medical arena, including hospital administrators, directors of retirement living facilities, first responders, OES, Red Cross, mental health people, etc - about 40 people. Main issues that came up were need for communication and coordination between groups, for chain of command in communication (ICS), PPE, education of the public, way to get the word out so people can stay at home when they're ill and avoid overloading a medical system that has little surge capacity... and avoid potentially infecting themselves at the hospital. Everyone was working so hard to not express anxiety that it was surreal, and for a couple of little Red Cross ladies, they did not have a clue what we're up against for what duration if this comes to pass. Good first try nonetheless.

Action helps. There are things we can do. There are people who have been researching this and know quite a lot.

Send an email if you want to talk in person.

Mellie

Hi Sonya, I added it to the Wildfire Education links page. Ab.

During the 2005 Fire Season, the Discovery Channel sent camera crews throughout the West Coast and rode along with the Redmond Smokejumpers, Mill Creek Hot Shots and San Diego Unit CDF Heli-Tack Crew.

The following two consecutive Tuesdays will also be brand new episodes. Please make time to watch these shows and tell a friend to watch, as every lit bit helps in the ratings. Check your local listing for broadcast times as it varies throughout the country.

Matt S
Fire Apparatus Engineer-San Diego Unit, CDF

Thanks for the heads-up, Matt. Ab.

Be safe. Try to get some quality sleep. Ab.

"Joe Pilot", best of luck to you in your next chapter. There is life after.....

-Polo-

I have just conducted some tests with Scanner 2. My daughter works in ECC at St Helena CDF/Napa Co. Fire . We made contact by phone and I had her transmit on LNU east and LNU west along with Napa Co freq. from Mt Vaca, Mt St Helena, Walker Ridge and the transmitter antenna in Sacramento. There was no other traffic on at that time and I still could not pick anything up. All of the traffic I hear is "right speaker" traffic. Any suggestions?

George

I am looking for a picture of a home that was owned by a CDF Captain in Southern California that was the only home left standing after a wildland fire. I believe that it was in the 90's sometime. We are doing a project with our Kindergarten and First grade class in regards to the importance of a defensible space around your home. I remember that the picture was very striking as the owner had surrounded his home with an "ice plant" that was very hard to burn and as a result was the only home left standing in the entire neighborhood. If you have any information or can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.

I can be reached at hubhome@ msn.com

Thanks,

Sandie Hubbard

Readers, does anyone know of such a photo? Sandie, here's the only photo we have of defensible space on this site, from the Lost Cannon Fire, Walker CA 6/16/02. You can access the photo description, photographer, etc via the Fire 11 photo page. Click on "Cannon Defensible" under the thumbnail. Thanks for working with the kids to develop safe and prepared citizens. Ab.

Ken Hancock, the FF that was struck by a train responding to the wildfire is improving everyday, the hospital is saying that he maybe able to go home later this week. He may have to have a skin graft replaced because it doesn't want to take. To this day he doesn't remember what happened, perhaps that is best.

Thank you to everyone for all of your prayers and thoughts. A very special thank you to Vicki Minor and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, your help has been immeasurable. The response from the all of the wildland fire community has made me proud to be a FF.

The New Summerfield VFD where Ken serves, took a donation that was made to them by an Insurance Organization and bought materials and went out to the Hancock's house and built a wheelchair ramp for when Ken is released from the hospital. They have his rehab set up with a home healthcare when he is released.

Thank you again and STAY SAFE,

Keith

Here's one opportunity to give your kids some protection against bird flu virus H5N1. This came across my desk yesterday. I know one adult who has been part of the adult clinical trial. My guess is that volunteers will step up quickly, so if you're interested, best call right away. Mellie

Children Sought As Volunteers For US Govt Flu Vaccination Study
If interested, contact the number below.

Ditto for AZ, NM, TX and OK. Maybe no rains until the monsoon. Could be a year like 1996 in the SW, eh? That was quite a season. Ab.

Wes thanks for everything that you have done for me also.

An-R5er

Don't worry about me, keep up the info. We just need to keep the info accurate. I'm not saying it has not been.

Here is an example of what can happen when accurate info is misunderstood by the public. A small town in Nor-Cal is threatened by a large river that is rising. In the past 20 yrs this area has been evacuated 3 times and the gallant crew of the Minnow has saved the day every time. Now the townspeople don't heed the warning to prepare for an evacuation because their perception is "we've never flooded before, it won't flood now. The crew of the Minnow will save us" and they even get mad at the local authorities when they advised them to prepare for evacuation. A few years ago during a big flood, a medical response was needed. As most VFDs do, the pagers and the siren sounded. The phone at the station rang for a hour because the town folks panicked and thought it was the notice to evacuate. What I'm trying to do is show that information (even good and accurate information) can put the public into a panic.

I am not saying that the information should be withheld. It just has to be accurate and not misleading.. As I said in an earlier post. we must prepare for the worst. If its predictable - its preventable. I was set off by a post that would lead some people to believe that a bird that migrated here needed to be tested just in case it had the dreaded illness. The fact remains that migratory birds from the infected area have been migrating here for eons. We can't stop them at the border.

Two nights ago I attended a meeting with 1 of the local service clubs to inform them of the risk of flooding and the condition of our Levy. I gave it to them straight. It's ugly. But, They now know we have a plan to take care of them. They will prepare, and be ready next time. I will be meeting with the other service club next week. Let's just call it damage control. In case you're wondering, that little town is Hamilton City, Ca. The river is the Sacramento. The Levy is approx. 100 years old and in terrible shape. A local grassroots level group has been getting closer and closer to getting Federal funding to build a new Levy system around the town. If all the stars and planets line up right the new levy could get here around 2010 or so. We basically had the last 9 years off. 1997 almost drowned us all. We won't survive another flood of the likes of 1997. Thankfully we are getting support from our elected officials, both local and far, far away.

When you see t he news reports about flooding in Nor-Cal, keep us in your thoughts and if the Bird Flu does hit us as predicted by some folks, pray for us all.

AB, I'm getting windy'er as I grow older.
Never a Boy Scout but always prepared,

danfromord

I have never advocated anyone leaving his or her "profession" or their post. If you look at everything I've written from day one, I have said that families must be cared for first before we truly have the freedom of mind to make the best choices for what to do in the given moment. At least that's what I need in order to have the freedom to focus as completely as possible on the problem or situation at hand.

There's a show on PBS tonight in half an hour at 9PM Pacific called Killer Flu that includes scenarios where family members and coworkers talk about issues that come up in families and for first responders as the pandemic flu moves through a community. Dr Osterholm, one of my academic heroes, talks about what is needed to get ready for the worst case scenario. He's currently working for Dept of Homeland Security. (He'd say he's no hero, just doing his job, but he's an inspiration to me nonetheless. He stays on focus and pulls no punches.) I hope you get to see it.

I must also stay on focus and pull no punches. You all have taught me a lot about the integrity of that kind of behavior.

Thanks!

Mellie

Ab,

Happy New Year to you, all the "Abs", and all your loyal readers. I hope everyone's holidays went well. We appreciate the collaboration to provide a discount to the readers of "They Said It". In the interest of drumming up additional business during our slow months and continuing to serve the community with the best selection of gear around, I want to extend another discount promotion to your readers for the month of January. Just like the last time, it is good for web orders only. The discount code to use is WFC26. This will get you 10% off orders of $100 or more. Happy shopping!

Thanks again for all you do to support the community. I am off to Sterling Colorado for the Great Plains Wildfire College and then to Boise for a board meeting of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Everyone, don't forget to renew your 52 club memberships for 2006!

Jim Felix
President
The Supply Cache, Inc

COMT makes mention of 'linking' repeaters on a large incident. This permits different branches to communicate with each other, even though each branch is utilizing a separate command repeater.

This has been available as standard equipment components available from the NIFC for many years. To "link" or "not-to-link" different branches of the same incident is NOT a Communications Unit's decision. This decision is made by the OPSC. The Communications Unit merely provides the equipment and technical expertise to implement this option. The Communications Unit Leader has a responsibility to explain the ramifications of each alternative to the OPSC.

The same is true with regard to Tactical frequencies and how they are assigned to specific divisions. Again, the Communications Unit secures these resources but it is the Operations Section that determines which divisions shall be placed and combined on a specific tactical frequency.

With regard to interoperability equipment, there continues to be more and more available. COMT makes a valid point that equipment from specific agencies is needed in advance to insure proper operation. Without going into specific technical details, it is fair to say that not all interoperability equipment functions as well as might be expected. It's just not 'plug and play'.

CA COML/COMC

Just got word that Wes Shook BC from the LP is retiring. From one R5
aviation TEAM member, thanks for all your help and support throughout the
years. Enjoy your time off, you have certainly earned it. Good Luck!

Frosty

Congrats, Wes, you made it. Thanks for all your contributions to aviation and otherwise. Readers, for those who don't know Wes personally, we'll be loosing a very fine instructor when he retires. Wes, when you retire please don't become a stranger to theysaid. Ab.

Dear Ab, JerseyBoy, Ms. Larson, Mellie, Lance, and fire dogs,

Out of respect for Doc Smith, (father) and entire family, in my limited knowledge I don't know if Kirk Smith's (Mormon Lake) passing had anything to do with his exposure to risks at Los Alamos but he, along with many others, was a great firefighter, husband, father and all around good guy who at a young age (37, I believe) left us on (9/11/02).

I would never think of imposing on Kirk's loved ones about information needed for a correlation between Kirk's crew's assignment and health risks, but I wanted to mention his dedication to fire and our outfit. I feel awkward posting because I am not the best source for info, but Kirk was well liked in our and the fire community and is still greatly missed.

Sincerely,

Redwings741

Thanks for posting Redwings. Kirk was a great guy by all accounts. We lost a good one. Ab.

From Firescribe

Thanks, Mellie, for keeping us heads up.

It seems the tone and level of federal government information is changing, at least as I read it on their websites. They're now telling people to stock up. They're even advising parents to have a plan for home schooling, if kids have to stay home longer than initially thought! To me this stepped up govt direction is a trigger point for re-sizing up the threat.

WHO (World Health Org) also seems worried about the outbreak in Turkey and Europe is very worried.

New York Times
New Bird Flu Cases in Turkey Put Europe on 'High Alert'

"I'm not sure we've seen a cluster like this in terms of numbers, and certainly it's a concern," said Maria Cheng, spokeswoman for the Division of Epidemic Preparedness at the World Health Organization. "Is the virus being transmitted more easily from birds to humans, or even from humans to humans? We need to put all the pieces together before we can come to conclusions."

Article from Reuters
Worried about bird flu? Stock up, Health and Human Services advises

This website from Health and Human Services is fairly new: www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/tab3.html
"Pandemic Flu Planning Checklist for Individuals and Families", www.pandemicflu.gov/planguide/checklist.html lists the following:

• Teaching children to wash hands frequently and appropriately, covering coughs and sneezes with tissues, and modeling the correct behavior
•  Having ready-to-eat canned meats, fruits, vegetables, soups, bottled water and cleaning supplies on-hand for an extended stay at home.
• Having any nonprescription drugs and other health supplies on hand, including pain relievers, stomach remedies, cough and cold medicines, fluids with electrolytes and vitamins.
• Talking with family members and loved ones about how they would be cared for if they got sick or what will be needed to care for them in another home.

Items to have on hand for an extended stay at home:

Examples of food and non-perishables	Examples of medical, health, and emergency supplies
Ready-to-eat canned meats, fruits, vegetables, and soups Protein or fruit bars Dry cereal or granola Peanut butter or nuts Dried fruit Crackers Canned juices Bottled water Canned or jarred baby food and formula Pet food	Prescribed medical supplies such as glucose and blood-pressure monitoring equipment Soap and water, or alcohol-based hand wash Medicines for fever, such as acetaminophen or ibuprofen Thermometer Anti-diarrheal medication Vitamins Fluids with electrolytes Cleansing agent/soap Flashlight Batteries Portable radio Manual can opener Garbage bags Tissues, toilet paper, disposable diapers

The next two days will tell if we're only dealing with a H5N1 virus that is better at transmitting bird to human (which is of concern in and of itself) or if it's gained the capability of transmitting human to human and going pandemic. I'm working my contacts to keep abreast of info coming out of Turkey, but the growing numbers of families infected and what they mean are cause for concern. It's the children and teens who are dying. WHO  is clearly concerned: WHO Teams are on their way to Turkey. Given the number of infected and the numbers of large family CLUSTERS infected, the virus has changed.

My friends, if you do not have extra food in your pantries, please add some to your shopping list next visit to the store. What I keep seeing in my mind's eye is that "time and options" graphic from the Leadership course. Recall that it is wedge-shaped - like a doorstop - with the wide part at the left and the narrow part at the right. The floor axis (horizontal) represents time; the vertical axis represents the number of possible options or choices for action that can save you and your crew's life. At the beginning of an incident we're at the fat part of the wedge: we have many option or choices for action that can save us and our family's lives. As time passes, options decline, choices narrow... If we don't make good choices when we can, we become the "victims" as did for many of those who refused to or could not get out of Katrina's way in New Orleans. Unfortunately, this time when this killer flu bug makes the leap to human-to-human transmission, we're going to have a world of Katrinas.

In my opinion, this bird flu bug is evolving; we are all are moving along that time axis whether we want to recognize it or not. The number of options we can choose from is diminishing. One big factor that will determine who lives and who dies is going to be... who gets infected. We and our families need to be prepared to ride this out at home when the killer flu goes pandemic. Our best bet will be to not get infected. We will need a supply of food at home, food for some months. Because of our just-in-time mode of food and  medicine delivery, each family needs to stock up.

The big picture:
Bad things happen. Over time some really bad things are inevitable. It's part and parcel of being human and living on planet earth. Whether the bad things happen to you and yours "before your time" is in part your choice. It's the result of your leadership and your planning. Lawrence Gonzales, author of Deep Survival, would agree with me. There are things YOU can do. Get about YOUR work of protecting your families, if you haven't yet done so.

Preparation ideas:

• buy extra food when you go to the grocery store, stock up on non-perishables;
• look at the food list on the Bird Flu Watchout page;
• go to one of the websites where people are sharing tips for getting prepared (Curevent.com's Flu Clinic Prep and their General Prep site). If there's too much info there, start more simply.

Don't get caught in denial, become the "deer in the headlights" or wallow too long feeling helpless. You've watched others do that in the face of crisis. You are wildland firefighters! Get over that stuff! There are many simple things you can do. Preparation gives you future options.

Mellie

Mysterious illness could have Katrina ties

Missouri FF

Will do. Ab.

Sarah Larson

Sarah, check Mellie's post below. Ab.

Lobotomy and others (Jersey Boy?) who have talked about this on chat are interested. I am too. As I recall Matt T (Prineville), Rick (Mormon Lake), his AZ FMO Cathie?, Paul Gleason and Rod S are a few who developed cancer. Most are gone from our physical presence now.

Statistical analysis of this kind of thing is a bit hard. You need the data from a number of firefighters, both those who fought fire, digging in possibly radioactive soil at Cerro Grande... and those who did not. You'd need to ask firefighters a slew of other questions relating to other cancer risk factors... well maybe you could limit it to some few important ones. Once you had the data, you could compare the incidence of cancer in firefighters who fought fire at Cerro Grande with similar others who did not... to see if the two groups differ.

There are lots of risk factors for cancer that firefighters are exposed to: sun on skin, breathing smoke particles from the fires you fight, physical stress, sleep deprivation stress, high levels of epinephrine (adrenalin) and cortisol (both kinds of stress hormones). It's hard to quantify some of the risks and the impact they may have on cancer incidence gets tossed in the big old "random variability" category if you can't figure out how to quantify them. Further complicating things: some firefighters smoke or chew and those two habits greatly increase a person's risk for cancer.

For some individual hard-to-measure risk factors, you're going to have to assume that all firefighters have exposure to them. Other risk factors like tobacco either must be accounted for or controlled for in analysis. If you can measure and control mathematically for the contributions of risk factors A and B and C to (possible) differing cancer rates between those who did and didn't fight fire at Cerro Grande, you can begin to get at whether Cerro Grande itself is also a causal factor - or is one of the LARGE causal factors for cancer -- over and above the other risk factors that all or most may have.

I think the thing that struck me about the cancers that I'd heard of in wildland firefighters -- who were at Cerro Grande or at Hanover -- is that they are the more rare and unusual cancers. Someone could look into that. Maybe Original Ab could make us a database that firefighters could contribute to.

I love you, Lance. It was a blessing to get to work with you, with Matt Taylor and with Nancy Larson (Matt's mom) as we explored options on his behalf. You were a very good friend and mentor to him. I'd trust you to watch my back anytime. Tell your lovely wife hello from me.

Mellie

I an observation, a couple of questions and something I would like wildland fire fighters to consider when taking assignments.

Before I ask my questions I have to preface them with an observation. So far in my very limited knowledge of the crews and fire fighters involved, I know of at least three and possibly four cases of fire fighters suffering from cancer after they were involved in suppression/prescribed fire actions at Los Alamos in 1999.

I cannot come even close to implying that their forms and contracting of cancer was caused by their involvement in that fire situation. To say I lack the skills, knowledge, training, and expertise to make such a supposition would be a tremendous understatement. I have heard stories and accounts of where some of the crews went, and those were described as questionably safe and in some cases in areas that were off limits to normal access (whatever that meant).

Question #1 is this: Does anyone else know of any other fire fighters who took part in this particular prescribed fire/suppression effort that has suffered from cancer of any kind?

Question #2 is for anyone with some talent, interest or knowledge in statistical analysis: How likely or what is the
percentage/chance/statistical probability that 4 people from X number of crews could contract cancer within 2-4 years of a fire assignment in Los Alamos given that they were all young, strong and healthy and cancer did not run in their families and wildland fire fighters as far as my knowledge have not suffered from cancer (in my experience) during the ages they are
allowed to fight fires?

Given the above questions and the people I know who have had or died from cancer, what I would like you to consider is this: if in the future you or your crew gets an assignment in an area that may be radioactive or at some time may have had atomic radiation present, think carefully before accepting such an assignment. Those are not the kind of dangers we have traditionally faced before or considered as dangerous or risky. Consider the potential risk of illness in the short or longer term and the possible loss of health or life.

Thank you again, most respectfully

Lance Honda

Good questions, Lance. This was discussed on theysaid a bit more than a year ago. It has been a recurrent topic in chat. I know of at least five groundpounders. Ab.

Your challenge Frank, is to see that it ends up where it belongs, and after working an entire career at the district level I sincerely wish you luck.

the cynic

About 10 people from two families have bird flu in Turkey. Two of the original 4 children who presented with symptoms several days ago are dead. There are not enough ventilators in the hospital in Van to treat all patients.

These are the first cases of bird flu outside of South East Asia and they're in clusters involving 2 families. It seems likely that this is still bird-to-human transmission and they got the virus from touching and/or slaughtering their chickens. The next few days should clarify the mode of transmission.

(Danfromord, I'm not anxious, just keeping people appraised. I know you think the bird flu pandemic, if it comes, will be simply a "flash". I think it is clearly coming, given the spread in birds and the changing genetic makeup which we can now identify. I also believe it will be much more than than a "flash" and there's much families and communities can do to be prepared.)

From CNN: Turkey says dead boy had bird flu

From Reuters:  Second Turkish child dies from bird flu

Mellie

PS 1/5 update: I just heard from a Turkish friend that the number of people hospitalized with birdflu like symptoms is growing (symptoms include pneumonia, bleeding gums, and difficulty breathing). They're still trying to pin down numbers. The hemorrhagic (bleeding) component is worrisome. In addition, it's unusual to have this many infections in a bang like this in four sparsely populated provinces. It seems that the H5N1 (bird flu) virus is evolving to be more transmissable to humans, even if it is still bird to human transmission. While it doesn't appear that it has evolved to human-to-human transmission yet, the efficiency of H5N1 infections of humans seems to have increased. When the gene sequences are submitted to genBank, we'll likely have more info regarding increased risk to humans (or not). Before then the pattern of infection and deaths should give us more clues. Here are the numbers he thinks are infected:

• 15 patients hospitalized in the city of Van  -->14 patients from the town of Ağrı (includes members of 2 families, including the 2 kids who died) and one patient from Van
• 5 patients from the town of Horasan hospitalized in Erzurum
• 6 patients from the town of Aralık in Igdir County (if these were sent to Van, this could be overlap)

Everyone here knows that there are lots of ways mis-information can be heard and get passed on when fighting fire. In this technological age there are lots of public "ears" listening in on comm unit information passed between crews and team members in an emergency. People listening want info, they may want to help, some are just curious. They're often hoping and praying for the miracle.

It's my experience that firefighters do a good job of being circumspect over the airways. They're knowledgeable regarding how info on an incident should and shouldn't be shared. We all need to continue being careful not to cause unnecessary anxiety or to provide hope, only to snatch it away.

We try our best to be careful here and are glad that this community continues to post responsibly to the Hot List Forum. Ab.

Frank: haw, haw on the PS... It came in from a Forest Service retiree who is still involved in fire. Ab.

For those wanting to cite references it was from Volume 4 Number 10. Ab.

Just to add to what everyone else has said, fire behavior in Texas right now is not what these people around here are used to. I have seen extreme behavior like this out west but never here at home. I was on the Airport, which was in Mineral Wells, and the Huckabay fires sunday through tuesday. Sunday at the airport the SEATs were grounded because the fire ran onto the field and they could not launch. Our engines knocked it down enough and they started taking off on a taxi way, coming around and dropping to save the retard plant! The fire went to 1800 acres and lost 14 structures including 8 homes. Fired out dozer line all day monday at Huckabay after they had lost I do not know how many homes the night before. Last estimate on it was right at 3000 acres. Stay tuned to this channel.

LL

Welcome. Thanks for the info. I forwarded it on. Ab.

Jim, thanks, but see the post above. I just emailed a copy off. Ab.

Leather boots and gloves aren't an issue. You have no choice. You can pack your gear with high energy snacks and protein bars and forgo the slab of meat on white but what happens after the fifth shift in some lonesome section of the Arizona strip when you realize you're empty and there isn't a health food store for hundreds of miles. You can't live off of the applesauce and tabasco in the MREs and be useful for anything. A crew is as strong as the weakest link.

Another thing to face as a vegan fire fighter is philosophical is that YOU are directly involved in suppression which can often do more ecological harm than good. The snags - the precious songbird, ringtail cat and woodpecker habitat, the drool coming off your comrades because they want to fall them.... all in the name of safety, when you know that's bullsh/t and it's more about practice and fun. Did you know you can still see the ruts from the old covered wagon wheels going across the desert, yet we blaze fireline in it...yea, to be a vegan in fire.... evolve through adaptation.

Make alot of money and donate to the Humane Society.

Good Luck, Peace.
Maddog2

Welcome Maddog2. I added the 2.
Maddog (the original) was from the Plumas. He hasn't written in in a while, but he's still part of this community. He was always a carnivore. Ab.

RedCardJason

An Examination of the Forest Service, Its Challenges, Budgets and Performance Trends (large 2,524 K ppt file)
Lots of graphs and comparative info here. Ab.

Welcome RedCardJason. Good comments and questions. Ab.

Do you have any photos and information that you can share
about your Model T fire engine?

Thanks
-Keith T

Only Model T I know of is pictured HERE, click on the words below the image for application info. Anyone have contact info, phone number, etc? Ab.

I agree, but I do know there has been a request from Texas and OK. There is FEMA grant paperwork summated by both states. As for here in NM we are working the State Resource Management Plan, and the 80000 acre that is burning here is under control as of today, I know I sent 3 1 ton truck loads of foam there today. We will need the help, here in our County alone, there have been 16 wildland fires dispatched since 12:01 am on Jan. 1. We have not had any measurable rainfall in over 60 days, after an abnormally wet Spring and Summer. So we have the undergrowth to have a 2000 all over again, as long as Fins and Feathers doesn’t do a prescribed burn on an Extrame day again in Los Alamos. That is just a little poke folk, don’t get mad ok.

Jeff C

Just today alone two Type 2 IA FS regular crews and at least a dozen OH operational positions were sent today to Texas and Arkansas from NOPS forests. Came close to sending a Type 1 IMT but the Southern area deployed one of their own. So if you are available to take a fire assignment, call your dispatch center and let them know. Texas and OK need help and they are asking for it.

NOPSer

Keith

JC

Welcome, JC. Ab.

Weather is wild card in Oklahoma, Texas fires: Blazes force evacuations

250,000-3,000 acres burned; more than 200 homes lost

Links to fire video taken near Oklahoma City and in Texas.

TX FS

Be safe. Ab.

The problem with CDF's PPE upgrade has to do with procurement from PIA
(Prison Industries). When CDF made the change to the newer style nomex,
which has better pockets and reflective material, they had just done a major
purchase of the old style nomex in both yellow and orange, several thousand
sets I understand. So prior to issuing the new style nomex, the old product must
be used up, so we see folks with the new styles, but unless you get it on a
incident, as most service centers are not giving it out yet.

That is why it takes so long. FYI

BDU medic

Keith