"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
JANUARY, 2006
Home of the Wildland
Firefighter
| DATE |
|
| 1/31 |
Old Sawyer,
Maybe someday They Said will have a day when we all get together and
"de-cloak" from our monikers... A day that wildland firefighter safety is
finally realized. Until then, we each have to do what we think is best for
safety. That would be a dam* good "party" once we get there... oops.. I
shoulda said "conference".
We are on the right track... just not quite there yet. Thanks for spreading
the word about safety.
Gizmo |
| 1/31 |
little embo,
It’s OK if you want to go back to being EMBO, as there is no other living
EMBO of which I am aware. My previous post was just an emboism, to pay
tribute to your bold emboness. After all, embo is a state of mind, isn’t it?
Who am I to say you are not EMBO? We all feel like EMBO at times. Be EMBO
and stand proud! Or whatever.
Misery Whip |
| 1/31 |
Re: Risk Analysis The Law of Air Guitar and others,
You bring up some good points. I think many in the wildland firefighting
profession have been doing risk analysis for years and just never realized
it. I also believe that some land managers have, and continue to do, risk
analysis by sitting at their desks and making more rules for the fire
program. Fire management, at least in the Forest Service, has a new doctrine
that is having the bugs worked out of it.... a doctrine that takes many of
us back to the times we started as a wildland firefighter.
Risk analysis is a key process in reaching the “Commander's Intent”, or
“Leader's Intent” as found throughout the changes being addressed in
Doctrinal Review. Probably the most important “intent” of today’s wildland
fire mission is that each firefighter returns home safely after every
assignment. That principle intent is “Fight fire aggressively but PROVIDE
for SAFETY first.”
In Fire Suppression: Foundational Doctrine (USDA Forest Service, 2005),
the following quotes may be useful in understanding the concept:
> Tom Harbour, Director of Fire and Aviation Management
“Let me open with a quote I like from Dee Hock (Visa founder):
‘Simple clear purpose and principles give rise to complex intelligent
behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple stupid
behavior.’ We are focused on defining those simple clear principles that
will encourage complex intelligent behavior.”
> Mark Smith, Mission Centered Solutions
“Doctrine is the body of principles (not rules) that guides an
organization’s activities and actions. A principle is the moral or
ethical standard that forms the foundation of judgment, mode of action,
decision, and behavior. Doctrine is the expression of the fundamental
framework, concepts, and principles that guide the planning and conduct
of operations. It is authoritative but flexible. Doctrine must be
definitive enough to guide specific operation, yet adaptable enough to
address diverse and varied situations.”
> Document Body
“Though the environment and the mission of the wildland fire fighter
is demanding increased agility in decision making, the fire fighters’
ability to adapt and react has become more constrained. Fire line
performance expectations have become increasingly rules-driven at the
expense of addressing the fundamental human factors that lead to
critical decision errors, delayed judgments, and improper actions.”
Now let’s get back to the point and use the sleeves up vs. down
discussion as a basis for Doctrinal Review. Some posters believe that you
should always have your sleeves down, while others believe it is appropriate
for the supervisors to allow variation of the rule. Who is right? The answer
is both, depending upon risk analysis and the “Commanders Intent”.
Risk analysis is something that is learned from experience and not the
NWCG Risk Analysis Checklist. Using the risk analysis technique, a
supervisor on a hotline assignment may determine that all the firefighters
may need to have their sleeves rolled down to prevent burn injuries. They
also may determine that sleeves need to be rolled down to prevent exposure
to cuts from chaparral or exposure to poison oak. Contrarily, a supervisor
using risk analysis under a different set of circumstances may determine the
greatest threat of safety may be heat stress and allow his or her
firefighters to roll their sleeves up. Both of the supervisors are meeting
the “Commanders Intent”.
Before you jump to the keyboard for a reply, ask yourself these
questions. Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, who wants people
to come home each day or a commander that wants people to follow rules that
may or may not apply to each situation found in the wildland firefighting
environment? Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, using risk
management, experience, and education to make the best decisions? Doctrinal
Review is what it is all about.
Lobotomy
P.S. – I still can’t find a reason that someone would wear a shirt soaked
in oil and exhaust, sleeves up or down, on or near the fireline. It exposes
the wearer to both short term (fire) and long term (health) hazards…. God
only knows what it exposes their families to. |
| 1/31 |
POd Warthog Great comments a few days back..... Are you one of the REAL
Warthogs?? If so, one squeel (salute) for you.
RC |
| 1/31 |
FYI-
BLMgirlThought it would be timely to let all of you know the current situation
associated with NIMO. At the December meeting of the NFAEB, the following
decisions were made:
- Recruit and fill 2 NIMO teams this year (Proposed location is the SE
(Atlanta) and the West (Boise).
- Recruit and fill the NIMO coordinator position in Boise.
- Monitor the effectiveness of these teams in meeting objectives before
filling any additional teams (annual decision by NFAEB).
A follow-up conference call was held on Jan. 24 with the Regional FS FAM
Directors where the following was shared by the WO (FAM):
- FS will fund the first two teams.
- Salaries will be paid from suppression.
- Outreach should begin with the month.
- Target for vacancy announcement is April.
- All available qualified personnel may apply (Temporary and Term
positions - will be flown both Demo and agency wide) IPA's if needed will be used for non-fed partners.
- Looking at virtual offices to reduce moving costs and potential
problems of establishing appropriate office space.
I'll keep you posted as I hear more, and Marc Rounsaville is planning on
discussing NIMO at the annual meeting. Thanks, ML
Michael H. Lohrey
Incident Commander, PNW National Team 2
Chair, National IC/AC Group |
| 1/31 |
FYI:
The 2006 version of the PMS 310-1, Wildland Fire Qualification System
Guide, is now available. There are changes from the previous version so I
recommend getting familiar with it. There will be a question and answer
session offered this spring regarding qualifications, training and task
books. The link to the document is below:
www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/PMS310-1.pdfJS |
| 1/31 |
Always In the spring of 1968 I left home in my 57 Chevy for a helitack
job, and asked my best friend to take care of my girlfriend. He took way too
much care of her, impairing our friendship for-- always. On the other hand,
I also happened to fall for a young lady, Kathy, that summer whom I met at
the local dance hall with my helitack team. We had a wonderful romance and
remained friends, but I ended up marrying Kathy’s best friend, Lynn, who I
met at Kathy’s cabin the next summer while on the helitack team again. She
was the most outgoing, gregarious and fun person I had ever met, the
opposite of my own overly serious and introverted personality.
When I lead the hotshot crew in 1971 Lynn was right there with me and the
crew, organizing softball games, playing cards with us, teaching the shy
crew-members how to dance to the cowboy music. One evening after a fire we
all went to the local bar- steak house- pool room- dance hall for dinner. I
had picked up Lynn and showered. Many of the crew had not bothered to clean
up. Lynn was beating most of the crew at pool when she asked some drunk lady
to move a little so she could make a tight shot, but the drunk started a
fight with her.
The crew and I broke up the cat-fight but in the process a local tough
guy with a bad reputation slugged me in the side of the face and we got into
it. Despite their impaired situational awareness, the crew had us quickly
paralyzed with bear hugs, in a pile on the bar-room floor. We introduced
ourselves as we suspiciously loosened our grips. The local tough guy
apologized, saying he wouldn’t have hit me if he had he known who I was. We
bought each other a beer and Lynn finished whipping the crew at pool.
Over that summer, unwittingly, Lynn did more to further our group
dynamics and build crew cohesion than I could have ever done. Lynn became
chronically ill from cystic fibrosis. Even during her many hospitalizations,
her room was always filled with friends, flowers, card games and joy. When
the doctors had done all they could, Lynn came home with grace, and died
peacefully in our bed. This ended my connection to people I was with in the
fire service. These were among the most exciting, challenging and romantic
times of my life. I eventually remarried, raised a family and lived happily
ever after, but I always remember with great fondness my time with the fire
service, with my crew members, with the people I met along the way- always.
But tomorrow I will be up early to discuss fire law with a hundred
hotshot supervisors from Regions 3, 8 and 9. An opportunity to meet with
some of the best people on Earth- always.
Old Sawyer
Sweet. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Re: LaSportiva Boots Hi Ab,
Just a heads up on the fad of the LaSportiva boots that several are trying
out. LaSportiva has a terrible warranty process. I purchased a pair of the
Makalu and had a flaw in workmanship. Went to the retailer and they tried to
replace the boot but the boots have to be sent back to LaSportiva and they
decide if it warrants a repair, replacement, etc. Retailer even called the
company and told them the boot was faulty and wanted to replace them. No
way, the boot had to be sent in.
Next question- What do you do while you wait for them to decide? Do you
have an extra pair laying around? I would stick with the firefighting boot
companies that have always been there! I know of an example where a guys
boots broke down on a fire. Called the boot company and a pair were sent
overnight to the fire camp. No questions asked! So beware.
CS |
| 1/31 |
Ab,
The NIOSH report on the Tuolumne Fire is at
www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200440.html
vfd cap'n |
| 1/31 |
Refresher topics: Ab thanks for forwarding the feedback. Yeah, power
lines...
I still see vehicles parked and staged, ICP's and DP's under power lines.
Some folks still need to look up once and a while.
Thanks for the input . . . .and the opportunity to ask.
Dave C |
| 1/31 |
Ab
My condolences to the Wildland Fire Community on the loss of 2 respected
members.
The loss of a trusted associate is always traumatic, no matter what world
one lives in.
At least they did not pass on the line; even though one was traumatic.
My wishes for solace to the families, friends and team members left behind.
May God Bless them and take them into his arms.
RJM |
| 1/31 |
490 The final day for getting your prework to the r5 490 coordinator is
fast
approaching. Please have it in by the 10th. And study hard, version 3
of behave plus.
Last year we had some folks claim that the turn around time for the
prestudy and prework is too quick, can I ask how fast you would
respond to a fire assignment?
And what else are people with this course on their training developmen
plan doing in January anyway?
Take care,
anotherdave |
| 1/30 |
Good evening:
I am a former Army officer (active duty 1982-1986) and currently a member of
an online forum that is tracking the development and spread of a highly
pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) strain referred to as H5N1. My concern is
for the troops in Iraq and neighboring countries in the Middle East who may
be exposed to this virus.
A teenage girl from the town of Sulaymaniyah in northern Iraq died on
January 17, 2006 after presenting with symptoms consistent of having
contracted avian influenza. Test results performed by a U.S. Navy Medical
Research Unit in Cairo, Egypt on samples from the girl confirmed the
presence of the H5N1 strain. Those results were just released today. In
addition, an Iraqi man identified as a relative (uncle) of the girl who died
also presented with similar symptoms several days later. He, too, has died.
While there is no confirmed indication of this virus transmitting
efficiently from human to human, evidence from an outbreak in Turkey
that began January 1, 2006 indicates that the virus has likely developed at
least a limited human to human transmission capability.
If there is anything that you might suggest as a way to get information
about this to the troops, it would be appreciated. I am including a link to
a thread at the forum that specifically addresses the developments in Iraq.
www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37153 The website is called
Curevents.com.
Regards,
John Diedrich
Iraqi health authorities go on bird flu alert
Five mobile hospitals with special equipment were
due to arrive in northern Iraq later today. |
| 1/30 |
I am helping to instruct this year's Fire Refresher Training on my forest
and am interested in gathering some thoughts and concerns from all over.
I am sending out emails to a few fire folks that may have some input...
large or small. I am charged with presenting the Risk Management and
10 & 18 portion of the refresher. I don't want this years to be the typical
canned information... and want it to hit some current issues that may be
resolved there and then... or at least discussed and thought about. I am
not looking to start another forum on safety issues... just some things
that may need to be brought up this year. I have not received any new
refresher training info for this year so I am sending out this message.
I have my own issues to add... but ANY input will be greatly
appreciated. You can post it in here for all to see or just email me
directly . .if that is allowed in here.
For those concerned... Hope your travel home from TX was safe.
Happy Trails to all
Dave Canning FOBS TX-IA dcanning@ fs.fed.us |
| 1/30 |
Memorial Bar-B-Q for Dale will be held at Paskenta Community Hall on
Saturday, February 4 @ 1 p.m. in the town of Paskenta. Paskanta is about
15 miles west of Corning on county Road A9.
The family is requesting Donations in leu of Flowers. Please send donations
to St. Elizabeth Hospice, 1425 Vista Way, Red Bluff, California 96080.
Please make checks payable to: St. Elizabeth Hospice in Memory of Dale
Nichols. If you want you can send along with your donation a separate
piece of paper, if you want an acknowledgement sent to the family.
Cards to the family can be sent to:
Flint Nichols & his Sisters
P.O. Box 1223
Corning, California 96021 |
| 1/30 |
Ab, HeeeEEEYYYYYyyyy!! I'm not THAT old! ..ok, well meb'be I am. Lets just
say that we were still wearin' the old wide orange fire shelter at the time.
And to be honest, of the 2 times that forbidden nectar was partaken of in
inappropriate times in my career, I will say it was definitely never done in
excess...we (the crew elders) wouldn't allow it. Just a nice cold one after
a long day. RE the photo: Nope, that was a picture taken the morning after a
crew get together. Completely legit.
OK, here is an anti "Always moment": After a particularly long shift (way
before the 16hr limits of today), a group of crews finally made it into camp
one evening.( I believe this was at the same Happy Camp that someone
mentioned recently, but of course a different fire). We bellied up to the
chow wagon in anticipation of some hot food and low and behold they were
taking the sandwiches out of the remainder of the days sack lunches and
grilling them up for us! GRRRRR. The regional guru at the time caught wind
of it and the last I saw of him he was stomping off to some bigwig tent. By
the time we got up the next morning a brand new caterer was moved in and set
up ready to go. YEA!!!!!!
Pulaski |
| 1/30 |
CDF Division Chief Bill Clayton sent the below e-mail to the San Diego Unit
this morning. His State e-mail will remain active so if you would like to
drop him a farewell he can be reached at Bill.Clayton@ fire.ca.gov
MS
MVU
His note:
Fellow Firefighters,
Today I end my firefighting career with CDF spanning some 48 years. I
leave you
with my favorite axiom that applies not only on the fire line: “Only the
spirit of attack
born in a brave heart will bring success on the fire ground.”
I got to live the dream!
Bill Clayton
Firefighter
|
| 1/30 |
Our thoughts and prayers go out to Dales family, friends and to his
second family the Eldorado Hotshots. Hang in there sandy.
Howard
Prineville Hotshots |
| 1/30 |
I'll miss Dale and his good cheer. My best thoughts for his family.
Thoughts and prayers for Will's family and friends... sad day.
Mellie |
| 1/30 |
Ab,
We are quite sad to hear that Dale Nichols passed away last Friday.
Condolences to his family and friends.
Kenton and Heidi Wills
Regarding
Photo,
Dale Nichols is on the left, what a smile! |
| 1/30 |
TC - Thanks for the note on Dale. I have some fond memories of him and L.S.
station.
Always moment:
After a long shift cutting line we ended up down at a resort on a major
river. We sent one poor sap to hump back up to the top to bring our bus down
to the bottom (this was pre crew carrier days). As we were sitting there,
the resort owner came out and asked if we all wanted something to drink. Of
course we said yes, figuring he would bring out some lemonade or something.
Well... a few minutes later he comes out with several cases of beer, a
couple jugs of wine and other associated.... beverages. We all just sort of
stopped, no one wanting to step forward to take ahold of the forbidden
liquid. .. That was until the crew supt bellied up and grabbed a brew.
Needless to say, we were all happy campers by the time the bus got back to
pick us up.
I'm sure I have a few other "Always moments" bumpin around in my empty
head...when I remember them I will sent them in. This is a good lighthearted
subject.
PulaskiPulaski is not a young wip'er'snapper. I'm sure this was some
looong years ago during his handcrew days... Wann'a fill us in on the year,
P? Were these
the remains? Ab. |
| 1/30 |
It saddens me to inform you that this past weekend, Eldorado Hotshot Will
Reid lost his life in a vehicle accident. Will spent the last 3 seasons on
the crew as a sawyer. He was one of the finest employees and hardest
workers ever to come through our program. As more information becomes
available, we will send it out via email or you can check our website,
www.eldoradohotshots.org. Please keep the Reid family in your thoughts
and
prayers.
In lieu of flowers, donations can be made for the Reid family at the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
www.wffoundation.org
Thank you all for your support right now.
-sandyThanks for the information, Sandy. Condolences to Will's family,
to you and your crew and to all who knew Will and called him friend. Please
be safe everyone. Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Ab,
I'm sad to report that Will Reid on the Eldorado Hotshot crew died over the
weekend in a car crash. As more details are available I'll let you know.
Former HS |
| 1/30 |
Howdy Ab,
How and when did the label "hotshot" get applied to experienced Type 1
crews? It's a trivia question, but I seriously would like to know.
And to Law of Air Guitar: Good observation. As a dear and sometimes
brilliant colleague asserted, the cost and risk of fighting fires is not
justifiable when you consider benefit only in terms of houses and trees not
burned. However, it is justified (to us who live the dream) if you measure
benefit as seasons spent working your ass off with your best friends in the
most beautiful places ordinary folks never see.
Kierkegaard also said, "When you can't do what you ought to do, do very well
what you can do." And, "the greatest danger is not to take the risk."
Zendigger |
| 1/30 |
For anyone that knew Dale Nichols, he pasted away at 11:30 Friday evening.
He had been battling cancer for some time. According to Flint (his son) he
went peacefully. Do not know of the arrangements but will let you all know
if I here anything. Dale retired several years ago as an engine captain on
the Mendocino N.F., but stayed involved with the Forest Service as a
contractor restoring historic buildings.
TC
...if we live in forgiveness we die in our dreams - Ray Wylie Hubbard
Condolences. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Hey Ab:
The most like "Always" thread is fun and really brought back some memories.
Like Old Fire Guy, my most surreal experience clearly goes to Northern
California 1987. I was on the, most inappropriately named, "Happy Complex."
In, the most inappropriately named, Happy Camp, California. Recollections:
-30 days in smoke down your feet
-A sharp NPS ranger in the Medical Unit who set up "Oxygen tents" to treat
CO poisoning
-A retired dentist for a driver who had the DOE doing nuclear winter
experiments on tomato plants in his garden
-Lots of bored pilots of grounded helicopters (you can imagine)
-A camp that grew by hundreds without adding chow, telephone, sanitary
facilities - lines that looked like the opening of "Star Wars" (and in some
ways the Star Wars bar scene) - you can imagine
-Native American firefighters drumming (on all nature of improvised drums)
late into the night. Better than most pow-wows, but hard to sleep
-Eskimo firefighters on their first trip to the Lower 48
-A barn full of pot at the Division break
-A Operations Chief telling us at morning briefing "Make sure your people
have their fire shelters today, because they're gon'na need 'em"
-A conversation when my dozer bosses, from the State of Georgia, and I said
"repeat" a least five times each before agreeing to meet at the drop point
where we could see each others' lips
-An LEO, assigned to the division, who was apparently the guy everyone
picked on in high school and contract fallers, assigned to the division, who
were apparently the guys who picked on him
-Deep sea fishing off Crescent City for R&R, followed by a dinner of fresh
caught Cod at the charter Captain's house
-My friend and Branch Director telling some rude, uncaring de-mob p*ke in
Yreka that he might want to check his list again, because if the name of a
young lady from his forest wasn't on the list he was going to "kick
someone's a**, and your name is at the top of the list." (funny after
another check, her name was, in fact, on the list!)
Ah, the Glory days!
Sign me,
GGFire |
| 1/29 |
Abs, All--
There is a section in the link Misery Whip posted that cuts to the heart of
the matter as to the safety discussion regarding Into the Firestorm:
“…The ‘design set of rules,’ written to meet the worst-case scenario
imagined, were bound to be interpreted as overly controlling and as an
unreasonable burden on operators in the field. In contingency language,
the rules
didn’t match the situation most of the time.
"When the rules don’t match, pragmatic individuals adjust their behavior
accordingly; they act in ways that better align with their perceptions
of current
demands. In short, they break the rules. According to General Carleton,
the Task
Force Commander who took over after General Pilkington was relieved:
‘Violations of policy and guidance occur minute by minute out there.
Some are
willful violations, but most are not.’…
"Such mismatches between the local demands of the situation and those of
global design rules occurred with increasing regularity as operators
gained
personal experience in the field. As a result, the pervasive demands of
day-to-day
practice inevitably shifted the logic of action from one based primarily
on formal
rules, to one driven more tightly by the task—the ever-present demands
of
minute-to-minute practice. Over time, the seductive persistence of
pragmatic
practice loosens the grip of even the most rational and well-designed
formal
procedures. I call this phenomenon ‘practical drift’—the slow, steady
uncoupling
of local practice from written procedure…” (Snook 2000, p. 192-194)
I believe that it was this process of "Practical Drift" that people
picked up on when watching the Discovery Channel series, and has led to such
vociferous debate.
One other comment--
Many now have commented on how far wide of the mark the show has missed the
"reality" of being on the line. Small wonder, when the only way to capture
the reality of being on a fire is to do it. I would like to postulate that
instead of capturing reality, the series has done a good job of capturing
the flavor, or the spirit, of the experience, which is all that the
producers could really hope to do. Food for thought.
Class C Sagebrush Faller |
| 1/29 |
Re: Johnny Wannabe-a-hotshot
I have a few questions to ask you before I hire you as a smokejumper.
1. Seems to me from your message that you were raised on either a farm or a
ranch of some kind. My question is if you were dispatched to choke chickens
as many of us were a few years ago, would you be willing to choke your own
chicken back at the farm or ranch which ever it may be?
2. Say you're sitting in a scab flat in the middle of nowhere, your pack is
off and you're shaded up waiting for the helicopter to come get you because
your pack is too heavy, what meal would you want at that very moment? If
it’s soup what kind of soup?
3. You come across a fellow firefighter high grading the last pork rib MRE.
You proceed to get in an altercation, what hold or move would you use to
subdue the poacher, for instance half nelson, full nelson or maybe the
elusive father nelson?
4. Some of us carry pictures, letters or some sort of memento or keepsake,
like a rock that would fit in your pocket to remind us of things that are
important to us. What would you carry that you could pass on or even touch
people with?
5. If you had to be involved emotionally or physically with a club, what
kind of club would it be?
6. If you were in a band in the off season and you didn’t have a real
instrument while fighting fires, what imaginary instrument would you play?
Ps: sorry Misery Whip wrong embo, I’ll have to change to little embo!!!!
little embo |
| 1/29 |
Hi to all:
The business office for the FWFSA is now in Inkom, Idaho. While continuing
to endure the incompetent efforts of a major moving company (probably should
have been called the Three Stooges Moving Company), we are getting a few
things to the house despite the intermittent snow.
The new phone number for the business office is: 208-775-4577 and the
mailing address is:
P.O. Box 517
Inkom, Idaho 83245
For all you lurking BLM firefighters around Pocatello etc., I hope to hear
from you and inform you as to what the FWFSA is doing for you and how you
can have your voice be influential and effectively heard in DC.
At the very least, those of you not members in Idaho & Montana should join
just because of all the %#&^ I've had to endure getting up here to "God's
Country.." It's gorgeous.
Please feel free to call or e-mail me at any time;
Hope all is well with everyone.
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSAGlad you and your family made it Casey. Your house looks great.
Lots of defensible space around it. Lots of room for those kids to grow up
in too. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
GSA Purchasing: Our Fire Department is trying purchase through GSA. Our
State does not allow it
unless we are covered by our Forest Fire Service. We are not.
So can anyone help with this?
Fire Chief John D'Ascensio |
| 1/29 |
Abs:
Along the "Always" thread:
In the 80's I had the pleasure of being a collateral duty airtanker base
manager in addition to being an AFMO, ICT3, etc. The base was located on an
Air National Guard field and of course there was an Officer's Club with a
well-attended lounge.
During fire seasons (this is in the Southeast) we would have our busy days.
The evening debriefings were, of course, held well after dark at the O. Club
and would, of course, include all involved and a few beers.
Serene humility always prevailed regarding the day's events albeit driven by
a few spirits. Great stories were told. Respect for all involved always held
the upper hand. We were all most aware of the gravity of our next day's
duties and went home or to hotel early.
I made some of the best friends of my lifetime during this period. Several
of them are no longer with us. We all really do miss them. The O. Club has a
small memorial to a few of them. I am told that thes debriefings are shortly
to no longer be as the base is being closed.
The movie "Always" happened in the late 80's and caused all of us a good
laugh. The movie was very unlike the life we felt we all led. It was a
movie, a fantasy, a concoction of what things are like according to movie
makers. It did, however, glorify to the general public what we do for a
living and for that I can say we were all proud. The reality is that we all
worked very hard to do a very good job of putting wildfires out and to take
whatever opportunities we could to enjoy the friendship of the folks we were
working with. And we still do.
In memory of some really great fire aviators.
NMAirBear |
| 1/29 |
Re Firefighting and Health: KCP,
I'm not ignoring you on the cancer and extreme athlete risk issues, just
trying to
get a moment to reply. Thanks for the heads up on that issue.
Women extreme-athletes frequently have their hormones messed up which
results
in cessation of menstruation. This is true of marathoners, gymnasts, and
others like
wildland firefighters who engage in long-term, physically stressful
training/working
regimens. Men probably are equally changed hormonally, there are just no
markers
that give the outward sign.
If we add in other environmental stressors such as smoke and all
the electronic gear
you carry on your bodies for long hours, I have no doubt that there's a toll
(increased
"allostatic load") on the body that increases your risk for cancer.
Yep, I be thinking on it.
Mellie |
| 1/28 |
vfd cap’n,
Ahem. We seem to have an ongoing misunderstanding about the definition of
duty. In your 1/23 post, you said:
“I think it is an unfortunate circumstance for wildland firefighters
that duty calls for more than what the job description says. It might be
the bird flu, a terrorist attack, or the next big California quake.
Fairly or unfairly - with or without proper training or equipment -
"green pants" are expected to respond.”
There are several different definitions for the word “duty” in the
dictionary. If you are referring to the definition of duty as something that
must be done for moral reasons, then I agree that I will probably count
myself among the thousands of “green pants” who will answer the all-risk
call when it comes again. As we know it surely will.
But there is another definition of duty, in which both parties have
obligations through previous agreements, that is not presently being met by
the federal land management and disaster management agencies. I currently
work in a secondary wildland firefighter position, my primary job is
something else. There is no mention of all-risk in my job description.
Officially, no one has ever told me that I must respond to all-risk
incidents. I have received zero training in all-risk.
On the fire side, I have a ton of training I’ve received over the years. I
pretty much know the risks in wildland fire and feel that it is a reasonable
bargain to take these risks, even though I have seen dozens of friends and
acquaintances die during my career. In return for what I give and risk when
I work on fires, I make a living and derive satisfaction from this work. I
accept that it is my duty to be a wildland firefighter and to respond as
such when called.
So are you implying that my previous obligation and agreement to be a
wildland firefighter means that I must now also expose myself to EXTREMELY
hazardous environments and chaotic civil circumstances without any
renegotiation of that agreement? It seems to me that if our government wants
to use us in a capacity for which we are not trained, then they have a DUTY
TO US to tell us up front that they want us to perform these missions, what
we are expected to do on these missions, to tell us about the risks of these
missions, and to pay, equip, and train us appropriately.
All-risk at least deserves hazardous duty pay, don’t you think?
The latter definition of duty is the one I have been using.
By the way, as much as I respect Jim Cook, Jim Saveland’s excellent paper
from the 2005 Wildland Fire Safety Summit “Integral Leadership and Signal
Detection for High Reliability Organizing and Learning” indicates there has
been no real recent downward trend in entrapment fatalities. Here’s the
link:
www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Saveland.pdf
EMBO,
You old far*, it was really good to see your post on They Said. What dark
hole have you been hiding in?
Misery Whip |
| 1/28 |
Re bird flu:
Stanford to begin human tests of bird flu vaccine
Stanford Medical Center is already recruiting research volunteers so they
can begin the screening process. They are looking for healthy adults between
the ages of 18 and 64 to take part in the experimental testing. The phone
number to volunteer is (650) 498-7284.
They just posted the trial on their website.
http://vaccines.stanford.edu/clinical_trials.html
A randomized, placebo-controlled, Phase I/II, dose-ranging study of the
safety, reactogenicity, and immunogenicity of intermuscular inactivated
influenza A/H5N1 vaccine with different adjuvants in healthy adults
- SUMMARY: The emergence of the avian influenza virus strains in human
populations outside of the U.S. has added urgency to ongoing efforts to
develop plans for responding to potential world-wide outbreak. Three
influenza pandemics have occurred during the last century. This study is
sponsored by the NIH and will help us compare the safety and immune
response of varying doses of an avian influenza vaccine, either alone or
when combined with adjuvants (substances designed to enhance immunity).
The vaccine will be administered to healthy adults by intramuscular
injection in the arm as two doses, given one month apart.
- The study will involve one screening visit and six clinic visits
over a 7-8 month period. At the first and third clinic visits, subjects
will receive an avian flu vaccine given in one of 8 possible
combinations. It is also possible (1 chance in 9) that subjects will
receive a placebo vaccine. A blood sample will be taken at each of the
screening and clinic visits. Subjects will receive reimbursement for
completed study visits ($30.00 per visit). There will be no costs for
participation.
- ELIGIBILITY: We are enrolling healthy adults who are 18 to 64 years
of age.
FOR MORE INFORMATION: Please contact the Stanford-LPCH Vaccine Program at
(650) 498-7284.
Enrollment may close quickly, so please call as soon as possible if
interested
(For further information regarding your rights as a participant, please call
1-866-680-2906 or write the Administrative Panel on Human Subjects in
Medical Research, Administrative Panels Office, Stanford University,
Stanford, CA 94305-5401.)
Mellie |
| 1/28 |
Re: Into the Firestorm Discovery Channel Series:
RP,
I was involved in the production of the Discovery Channel special. I am an
Assistant District Fire Management Officer (Battalion Chief) for the Forest
Service.
In early summer, I was contacted by my Forest FMO (Chief) about a production
company desiring to film our crews and engines during the 2005 fire season
for a Discovery Channel special. As customary, this Discovery Channel
special was approved by the Washington Office public affairs staff before
any official participation. A meeting was arranged to discuss the specifics.
The first meeting was attended by the following: the Forest FMO (Chief),
Deputy FMO (Deputy Chief), the forest public affairs officer (PAO), myself,
and two Supervisory Forestry Technicians (One Engine Captain and one Hotshot
Supt.). Also in attendance were the Supervising Producer and an Assistant
Producer of the Discovery Channel special.
During this first meeting, it was discussed that our local portion of the
production would be following one of our hotshot crews and one of our engine
modules. We were also told that they would be filming in Region 6 and
possibly some CDF units. Our participation further expanded to include our
other hotshot crew and our helitack crew due to a slow fire season.
There would be a producer type person and one or two camera people following
each of the modules. What was different about this show was that the
producers and photographers were not going to be constantly shadowed by a
Forest Service PAO person or someone to watch out for their safety.
As part of the meeting, it was agreed upon that since we were not going to
be providing a “minder”, the Forest Service would provide S-130, S-190,
LCES, and Standards for Survival as a prerequisite for our local
participation in the production. The production company agreed even though
they had no requirement to do so. By law, in California and Oregon, the
press/media have free access unless they are interfering with operations.
Around 30 employees of the production company received the training
including field drills such as handline construction and doing hoselays.
They also deployed the new and old style fire shelters. They got down and
dirty just like all of us do. They received a certificate that they had
completed Basic Wildland Firefighter Training according to NWCG standards.
The people who were doing the editing (producers) were on the same fireline
as the photographers.
What I think some people are missing from the Discovery Channel special is
how the 30 or so people doing the production bonded with the wildland
firefighters….. They ate, drank, and slept with wildland firefighters during
much of this production.
What scared me the most was that the production company folks went out to
kick back and drink a “few” beers or hang with the folks who were providing
the training and get to know them… then it dawned on me… There is no reason
to be pissed off at anything they show… they, like us, have had wildland
firefighter training.
The next morning, the instructor did a power hike with the HUNG OVER
production folks just as he would have done with any other new firefighter…
lets just say they learned………
LobotomyOnce again, thanks to all involved. Ab. |
| 1/28 |
Re movie Always: The closest fire camp to the movie Always that I
have experienced in 32 years of fighting fire with the CDF was the Lexington
Fire in the mid 1980’s.
The fire camp was set up at a park and along with the standard feeding
arrangements; there were “portable” food kitchens like the kind you would
see at a State Fair. They had pizza, snow cones and the other usual Fair
Food, there was an AT&T area set up so firefighters could call home, all at
no cost! They even provided Massage Tables (quite the line for the service)
to ease the fire fighters sore muscles. Of course we slept on the
ground….but the rest of the camp was pretty amazing.
With the bag lunches the next day, came the biggest surprise. I was
supervising an Inmate hand crew at the time, and when I opened my lunch to
see the contents, was surprised to find a Budweiser in the bag! The Captains
quickly checked the other lunches and lo and behold each of the brown bags
contained a Bud!
Firefly
You were expected to be "older bud'wiser"? Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Start planning now, the IAWF is having two conferences in 2006. In March
it's the 1st Fire Behavior and Fuels Conference: Fuels
Management--How to Measure Success, then April brings the 9th
Wildland Fire Safety Summit. See the details and links on the
Classified Page under Announcements/Notices. OA. |
| 1/27 |
To all:
As the great existentialist Kierkegaard once said, “Where is the love?” (or
was that the Black Eyed Peas?) The question rings as the current debate of
fire line safety rattles ad nauseum.
This forum, whether you view it as academic or ignorant, provides us with a
channel to vent our frustrations. In the world of wildland firefighting,
corrupted by bureaucratic bumbling and complicated by the dynamics of
unfulfilling theoretic modeling, our frustrations run deep as poof dirt in
Northern Nevada and the ash of perished tundra in Alaska. Every year, in the
season of fire hibernation, we fire fighters, presumably out of boredom take
to rearranging the furniture of our discontent. Last year at this time they
told us that we needed to buy professional liability insurance or face
criminal prosecution. Years before they speak of how Swiss cheese effects
the flight of aircraft or the trigger points of contingent thresholds within
due diligence as a function of Monte Carlo Risk Analysis.
I refuse to engage any subject in a spirit of criticism without providing a
solution. After years of being a student of Risk Analysis, I have come to
understand one irrefutable law that spans the concept of Benefit-Cost
Analysis (BCA), Leadership, Safety, and yes even efficient fire suppression.
The Law of Air Guitar. |
| 1/27 |
To all:
I’ve watched two episodes of “Into the firestorm” and I am anxious to learn
more about fire fighting. I want to be a Hotshot but have a couple
questions.
- Do smokejumpers ever get the chance to fight bigger and more complex
fires like the ones that the Hotshot’s are shown fighting?
- After watching the show, I am beginning to see the hierarchy.
Hotshot’s big fires, Smokejumpers little fires. How many years do you
have to be a smokejumper before you can graduate to the ranks of
Hotshot? (Do you have to have experience before you become a
smokejumper? skydiving, camping, hiking etc.)
- Is it common for Smokejumpers to not have tools when fighting fire?
Or did I miss something on the last episode of the show?
- Are there any Hotshot crew’s near Walla Walla, WA (my home town)?
I play a wicked air guitar and have been practicing an air guitar version
of Whitney Houston’s “I will always Love you.”
Sincerely,
Johnny Wannabe-a-hotshot
HAW, HAW, HAW great trolling. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
The Oregon Department of Forestry is accepting applications for Seasonal
Forest Officers, with full-time positions located throughout Oregon. Please
see the details on the
Jobs Page.
Thanks, OA. |
| 1/27 |
Gotta agree with RP.
My hat's off to Prineville and Redmond (and the other FF's appearing on
'Firestorm") for being gutsy enough to let film crews record their every
move for an audience of thousands in the first place. That kind of 'fame'
doesn't sound like a heck of a lot of fun.
IMHO, some people (including me) weren't aware of how MUCH splicing and
dicing goes on in the making of these documentary-style shows, at least
until those in the know pointed it out. Most of the criticism seemed well
intentioned, not mean-spirited, but a lot of it revolves around scenes that
apparently had little connection to reality. The result: frustration on all
sides. For what it's worth, in my few encounters with Prineville and Redmond
on the line they've been nothing but safe and professional.
I hope that new FF's are savvy enough to realize that the difference between
TV and reality applies to our profession as much as any other. Maybe it's
something that should be addressed in basic training classes. (At least for
some of us - when I first looked into fire jobs, as an utterly clueless
secretary from the 'burbs, I thought newbies got to jump out of airplanes
the first year, and lived in 'Always'-style fire camps when away from home.)
But in light of Firestorm's inaccurate depiction of events and
circumstances, holding up the participating crews as bad examples of
fireline safety would be exceedingly unjust.
Just my two cents,
Kibby |
| 1/27 |
GIS Girl.
Absolutely. Once Tony and I figure it out, we will get the route to you. The
general area is from Red Rock State Park (on hwy 14 near Ridgecrest) through
the desert (California city) and hopefully, I need to call them, through
Edwards Air Force Base......to Fox field. Then down Sierra Hwy (instead of
Bouquet Canyon)....into Newhall and Santa Clarita.
Went for a second opinion on my knee today. Yep, apparently all I needed was
a 5 inch piece of tape. Uh huh, just to pull my Patella over a schosh.
Lesson learned, don't mess with non sports medicine Docs.
Guys, I'm done with the whole S-2 thing. My original post was a JOKE.
Peace,
Kenneth C. PerryI did not change Ken's name to initials (as I do with
ALL posts) because we know Ken already. If you want a pic to go with the
name, scroll back to one of the last posts on the 2x52 mile run. Yeah, he
helped raise mega-bucks for the
Wildland
Firefighter Foundation last year. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Original Ab notes on recent firestorm posts:
1/24 joatmon decried there weren’t any postings or feedbacks on some tv-show-related
website. I say, not too surprising from where I sit. I wrote in and told
them to come here and see how their documentary was received.
1/23 young and dumb in region 1: *best question award!* Just how were those
arriving smokejumpers filmed from the ground on their way to a fire? (and
informative that someone wrote in with the answer)
1/23 A Firefighter: signs themselves with a moniker, but want’s Norcal Tom
to come out of the shadows. I know who NorCal Tom is and know if they did
step forward, you’d realize what a large shadow they cast.
1/23 jh: “Just like the other guys and girls that I work with, I stay away
from these kinds of discussions”.
The discussions you stay away from are about Safety? Hotshots? Smokejumpers?
What?
The They Said It page isn’t a chat room, though we do have one available.
But not to worry about entering there, most “angry” folks don’t last long.
1/24 b: said “I can't believe the free time that people have to critique
us”.
Oh my boy, the folks here make it a priority to create the time to critique
just about anyone. Don’t feel picked on, they’ve critiqued, criticized,
blasted, wrote letters to, and otherwise made their opinions known. It’s
called information sharing. Whether you like the info you read; whether
you’re a frequent participant or lurker, wouldn’t you rather know what
people are thinking about? Especially when the focus may be near and dear to
you? If this tv show would have run 10 years ago, who would determine how
the audience felt about it? The tv, of course. ....Not anymore.
Rest assured we’ll all be watching the rest of the series. Not because we
feel we are any good at being critics, just because we are all firefighters
and we can see ourselves in what we see.
1/25 J said: “I wish the yahoos that have all this time to rip on these guys
could put as much heart into going to congress. . .”
I know some of the folks doing the ripping are FWFSA members and are doing
all they can to make their representatives hear them. The movers and the
shakers that bring about change for all of us. (Join the FWFSA. Make your
voice heard.)
And to say that “so many people are around to voice their opinion on what we
did wrong but, those same people aren't around to do the real work”, well I
disagree on that one. Contributors here are hard workers. Many are the major
agents of change on the ground. Some are youngsters. Some have been around
for many years. Some are retired but still contributing to improving safety.
Remember also that it isn’t only in your neck of the woods that the budgets
are pinching. Lots'o'people including some who post here are overloaded with
too much work and too little time and resources. |
| 1/27 |
Re: PO'd off Warthog
You sound like you have a great deal of experience with being a
hotshot and a jumper. It would be "great" to hear more from you.
Please share with us more of your experience.
EMBO |
| 1/27 |
While talking with the President of FWFSA Mike
Preasmeyer on the Plunge fire the other day, he made a
comment that I thought was simple yet profound " If
all the folks who use prefix 11 on their payroll
sheets in front of the overtime code 21 and are NOT
members of the FWFSA, they should be ashamed of
themselves".
For $10 a pay period from all those folks, we could as
an association be a force to be reckoned with.
Sign up NOW!
OB
The FWFSA
website is being revamped. It's easy to sign up. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
The Jobs Page and
Series 0462 (Forestry Technician)
& Series 0455 (Range Technician)
jobs pages and Series 0401
("professional" Biologist) are updated.
The Wyoming Office of State Lands and Investments, Forestry Division,
is currently recruiting supervisors and crewmembers for the Wyoming Helitack
Crew for the 2006 Fire Season. See their announcement on the
Jobs Page.
Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Re: Firestorm
AB
I find it interesting that the only people with enough guts to use their own
names in their response to action's that are portrayed in the show are ones
who were actually involved. This is actually comical. It appears to me that
the criticism comes from many that lack experience or any common sense and
fail to have any knowledge about the world around them. Has this created a
good debate? This is not a debate or even a discussion. This is a forum for
ignorance. If you have something to say, stand up and say it! Show your
self!
I am well aware of how this show was produced. The film was shot by several
cameras manned by fire trained camera men and women. Hours up on hours of
tape were handed over to an editing crew that did not ever step foot on
filming locations or even know any of the people being filme d. It was
edited in a production facility in California by people who have the job
putting together a job that the Discovery Channel would buy! The on-site
crew turned everything over to these departments to put together something
good. If it was not, it would have never hit the screen. The Discovery
Channel DID NOT PAY TO HAVE THIS FILMED! It was by a company that creates
films and sells them to the highest bidder. In this example, after the
success of "The Deadliest Catch", the company was told, "go out and film
firefighting and let us see what you come up with. If it is good we might
use it".
Now with that in mind (if you can). Do you not think that this was
dramatized? That the context was distorted? That the sequence was pasted
together to give the best entertainment rating for its intended viewing
audience? This is a show for, T.V. VIEWING ENTERTAINMENT! The discussion
about s how being construed as training and what will young people think
seeing a firefighter w/o gloves! What you are saying is that these people
are too weak to know the difference between reality and entertainment. Most
alarming are the people that are running into their classrooms to say, "Do
not believe this, this is not how it is supposed to be done!" Well if you
can not tell the difference, you have absolutely no business in this
business. What this forum has created is a site for people to surface with
autonomy and make accusations that only show their ignorance. Again, STEP UP
TO THE PLATE FOLKS, raise your hand show us who you are. I for sure want to
know because when the going gets tough and you are in the area. I will know
that you are not a person to rely on.
The firefighters in this show are the ones you can count on to get the job
done and done right! So watch the show and get a life. Go out and watch a
good training film in something other then firefighting because this is not
where you belong!
RP
Central Oregon Firefighter (32 years)Welcome RP, glad something pushed
your button. I think the process here has been just ducky. People state
their mind, people re'butt, we come to some common understanding, even the
ones who cited safety issues at the beginning have a differen't perspective,
I'll bet. We're all watching avidly. The Public is tuning in. My guess is
they'll run the show again the next time fire hits the news. We're getting
waaaay too much email from young people wanting to be wildland firefighters
- hotshots and smoke jumpers. Better the show aired now when they can
actually apply for firefighting jobs and work their way up to hotshot or SJ
caliber and experience. Gives 'em some time to practice their air guitar
too. (I finally retired mine, but I loved that thing.) Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Socal Cap & KCP
Regarding what is too low!
During the Cedar Fire IA, on the morning of the first day, I watched 3 CDF
S2s make successive drops on the W flank of Mt. Gower in Ramona. They were
all “nap of the earth” and below the top of the ridge they were dropping on.
Wind was terrible; they seemed to be trying to protect an Equestrian Center
until the horses were evacuated.
Still can tell the chaparral they got the goo on from the newer stuff. Most
of it broke up and drifted away though.
I was not more than ½ mile from, and looking parallel to, the drop line and
at an elevation about 100 feet below the line they were trying to lay; my
neighbors and I were wondering why they were even trying. The horses did get
evacuated; the center did suffer some, but not too much, damage.
My respect to those pilots. They should not have been flying but they were
there trying to “do what they do”. Protect life and property. Not a FF,
however have read much about the “rules” of Air Ops”.
This also ties with the thread of the Firestorm series; sometimes you make a
personal decision to “bend” the rules because you have “Situational
Awareness”. I know I have; and I agree that sometimes one has to, or can,
bend rules safely because you are SA of the conditions and the “why” of the
rules thus allowing you to bend them to do a job better and more
effectively. If you don't know the what and why of the rules; FOLLOW THEM.
Was call brush FF for a short time, long ago; but worked with hazardous
materials for many years.
RJMWelcome RJM. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Hi Ab,
I want to inform your readers of a experience I had this summer and ask for
thoughts and opinions.
This isn't exactly fire related; it concerns incident aviation SafeComs.
At Rocky Mountain National Park a very large search and rescue happened last
summer. At its peak, this SAR was using hundreds of people and dog teams and
a helibase with 5 helicopters. The incident was being managed by a NPS Type
2 All-Risk team. I was working on the helibase as a HECM. We had many, many,
MANY safety violations. I know that at least 10 SafeComs were submitted.
However, only 2 SafeComs have been posted on the SafeCom site (05-0596,
05-0614).
I have been HECM qualified (and worked on helibases and as HECM on crews
while on fires yearly) since 1998. The days I spent on this helibase were
the scariest I have ever experienced - I think it is luck and only luck that
kept us from killing a searcher. I daily considered whether or not I should
continue working on the helibase and did request a new position in the
search after 4 days.
The fact that the other 8 (9?) SafeComs have not been posted is extremely
disturbing to me. This situation appears to be very political and goes
against everything I have ever learned (and taught others) about SafeComs.
Are these SafeComs being censored? Are SafeNets censored too?
Does anyone know anything about this? Has anyone ever experienced something
similar? I feel powerless - I know the AOBD and the Helibase Manager have
also been trying to find out what is going on with the other SafeComs, to no
avail.
In my opinion, politics overcoming safety is wrong.
Hycatal |
| 1/26 |
A wise fire person told me that predictions are for fools (that is
predictions of fire
seasons). It is what it is!
Fossilbird
"Bueno Suerte"Undoubtedly it will be what it will be, but I think the
conditions in the SW are set up for a very active season there. Kibby said
no rains for the last 100 days. Maybe no rains until the monsoon? Could be a
year like 1996 in the SW . If so, could be exciting. Be safe! Ab. |
| 1/26 |
S2 drop: I know all personnel were out of there because I was the one to
make sure of it. As for the drop, I did forget to mention that there was a
considerable amount of old punky snags burning and had requested a few low
drops, you know aerial tree falling. One thing about the show is a least
they have shown interest in our profession.
Socal Cap
P.S. What type of plane do you fly? |
| 1/26 |
COMT Sounds like a good experience. My closest to "Always" was Seiad
Valley in
1987. Community really took care of us. Camp was there for a long time.
Things I saw:
Large screen television brought in to watch the baseball playoffs.
JiffyPop available to crews to cook over the camp salamanders at
night.
There was a townhall dance/band one evening.
R&R was arranged to go to Medford, but IC allowed the crews that
wanted
to stay in place and just relax for two days. Locals provided free
"guide"
service for salmon fishing......I remember a type 2 crew from Tennessee
member caught a 20 pound salmon. He said it was the experience of a
lifetime for him. Another local traded him a smoked salmon for his fresh
caught, so there was a special treat at dinner that night.
Never did catch up with Holly Hunter though....
Old Fire Guy |
| 1/26 |
Hey Ken re 52x2 run-
If you're setting up a team I volunteer to be the GIS Specialist (GISS) in
your plans unit
Give me your route and enough time and I'll try and give you a movie
flythrough of the
course... We can also make some maps for WFF promotions, publicity stuff to
send to
any media, whatever you deem fun.
Let me know- ab has my e-mail and such.
Smiles,
GISgirl |
| 1/26 |
Anyone have any predictions on the '06 fire season?
How are the snow packs out there?
AV |
| 1/26 |
Hi there,
I was interested in learning more about the Smokejumpers here in Central
Oregon. I saw on the "They Said" portion of your website a Redmond,
Oregon smokejumper by the name of Gary Atteberry, is there any way to
get in touch with him? I have many questions about being a smokejumper
and would like to know more. Thank you for your help and have a great
day!
Deanna
There's a smokejumpers' forum here:
www.smokejumpers.com/
You can always find that link on our links page.
Here's some info on what smokejumpers do and a sj base contact list:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/index.html
Now don't you go botherin' Gary. (gosh, the unexpected effects of stardom!)
Ab. |
| 1/26 |
52x2 run: By the way.....the t-shirt post reminded me.
I thought a neat way to raise a few extra bucks for the run would be to sell
advertising on my shirt. If any hotshot, helitack, etc crews out there
want...send me a patch, and I will sew it on my shirt for the run. This
shirt currently is on the wall in Boise at the WFF and will be returned
there after this event.
Right now, There's a Fulton HS and generic Smokejumper patch. Texas Canyon
and Bear Divide will get a spot (fee waived for running with me last year).
If anyone is interested, I thought a flat rate of $20.00 would be cool, huh?
I'm a pretty little guy so space is limited. Although there will be two
shirts (night and day).
If you folks think this is a good idea, I will give my home address to Ab.
Later, KCP
Little guy?... big heart. Take care of that knee. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
Ab, The t-shirt collection is just about complete; only lacking two shirts
from having all of them that are currently in the system along with
some real treasures. Still missing Mt. Taylor and Vandenberg.
Anyway I wanted you to know that the book of stories connected with the
shirts is coming along. I try and write in it every week and Mellie is going
to help... Hopefully to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
Someone asked me the other day what I was going to do when I had all the
shirts collected. Well I found quite a few older shirts, so I guess I will
try and find them... with stories...
There are 133 in the collection currently displayed on the wall at the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation. That's amazing!!!! I would also like to
invite everyone who gets to Boise to check them out at the foundation. They
have been quite a hit according to Vicki.
Rowdy
List of shirts still needed:
Current shirts:
Mt. Taylor
Vandenberg
Older shirts:
Chilao
Catalina
Bitterroot I.R.
Flathead I.R.
Coeur D’ Alene
Kaniksu
Lolo I.R.
Slate Creek
Gibhorn I.R.
Pike I.R. |
Gila I.R.
Sawtooth I.R.
Deshutes I.R.
Roughriders
Wallow-Whitman I.R.
Ozena
Oak Grove
Monterey
Inyo |
Here's the
page of shirts Rowdy has with the
people who gave them to him... and links to 2 photos of the wall. Seeing is
believing and it's even more awesome to be there exercising all the senses. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
Well another great Firestorm show again. Wish they would show more
equipment on the line and less close ups of the flames and sparks. The
camera man and cutting room is sure doing its best to make it look like the
people and trucks are in those flames! Funny how a camera can zoom into a
hot spot and make it look like it is all around you. You see some crews
totally dressed for fires and some not. Like they are two different groups
on the same fire? Still seems to be a lot of safety issues in PPE but this
film is designed for drama and action shots.
Looking forward to the next one but most of all it is getting me pumped
up for the 2006 fire season! I wish our snow would melt faster and summer
was here!
Region 6 |
| 1/26 |
So Cal Capt.
A. The forward speed of the retardant is what I was looking at. Retardant
should be dropped at a height that allows it to stop its forward motion and
fall like rain, just before it hits the vegetation. Usually 150 ft. or so
(airpeed, wind speed etc. have an effect, but extremely minor). Thickness of
the fuels doesn't have anything to do with it. In fact a low drop in heavier
fuels causes shadowing of the retardant, thus making it less effective.
Heavier fuels require a higher coverage level, not a lower drop.
B. How do we know that all of the personnel were clear?
C. My comment was just a tad sarcastic. I am an aerial firefighter, and I
have requested drops lower than normal, for various reasons. My point was
that if you're not familiar with what you are looking at, you notice little
things that others might not. Don't you think police officers watching
"COPS" see safety infractions all the time on that show? I imagine that many
think that show is not showing what it is "truly" like out on the streets.
Peace, KCP |
| 1/26 |
We just got this: A good new addition to the pandemicflu.gov site on what
faith based and community groups can do to prepare for the pandemic. Share
it with groups in your communities. Check it out via our link on our
bird flu watchout page. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
RE: Into the Firestorm: Just a quick note on the low drop by the S-2.
Two
factors:
- First, the shot was taken with a telephoto lens and looks a lot
lower than it really is... low yes but:
- ALL fire personnel were out of the
drop zone while the aircraft
applied the retardant and because of the canopy
closure the
planes have to get lower for effective penetration.
Remember
10s&18s & LCES...
Socal Cap |
| 1/26 |
Ab,
Haw, Haw! To your response to my chagrin at SoOps Intel being asleep at the
wheel!
Trust me, when I got home and realized there was a fire in Plunge Creek, the
Hot List
was the first place I went. I know News & Notes is not going to be on top of
anything!
That is the problem, and why I keep bringing it up. Sad isn't it.
Still WaitingJust call this community "reliable" for coming up with
intel. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
RE: Into the Firestorm Quite an amusing portrait of wildland
firefighting....
The air guitar dude on Prineville was sure cool. Speaking of Prineville-
Good critique about tree falling- it is important to not drop trees on your
fellow firefighters.
And I hope the burn heals up on that other guy.
You guys need to remember to whistle whenever you carry your handtools on
your shoulders!
At least then when you fall on your handtools you will do so cheerfully.
One or two instances of these things might not matter, but when taken in its
entirety, maybe it's time for
Prineville to take a long look into its soul. "Cool" only matters to
mindless spectators -it has no place on the fireline. I know -this stuff
happens to us all, no need to expect different.
Neither should we expect anything to change in the death and injury stats
which heap ever more
liability and checklists on those of us who manage this mess.
I don't need to hear any sniveling about the "twisted media", I have been
around the block enough to realize what was sensational hallucination and
what was crew attitude during this exclusive TV extravaganza.
By next summer, maybe Prineville's standards will match our expectations of
what a Type 1 Crew is supposed to be. I sure hope so.
Until then thanks for the entertainment.
To the jumpers- Howie Long would be proud.
PS-Where do I get one of those green hard hats?
Old, Pissed Off Warthog
(chuckle) Warthog, if yer serious about the green Bullard, Supply
Cache has them. Click the sponsor banner at the top of the page. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
Ab, there is the following fire engine photo on
Engines 11 photo page of wildlandfire.com (bottom left):
CDF Powerwagon: 1957 CDF Dodge Power Wagon restored by myself. Photo
compliments of Doug Kunst.
I would like to contact the owner. I am looking for a CDF 1950's era Dodge
Power Wagon to replica in a scale model.
Thanks!
Art DeyoAnyone know how to reach Doug? Ab. |
| 1/25 |
Well, it's just over 4 months to go till the next ultra-run. Anyone know of
someone that has a right knee they could spare me until June 4th? Having a
little issue right now, and waiting on my insurance co. to approve the use
of Supartz (a synovial fluid replacement.....made from rooster
combs....probably made in China....and they've killed all their
chickens...maybe why it's so expensive.???) So, I've been limiting my
mileage and sticking to trails, as much as possible.
I'm not sure when Melissa and Vicki want to start to "advertise" this
officially. But it wouldn't hurt to start getting the word out now before
fire season starts....Oh wait, it already has. That's right. Tony Duprey
will be the "ref" again. Haven't picked the exact route yet, although the
second half will be from Fox to Santa Clarita again. Slightly different
route, from there, this time. Total mileage will be 104.8 miles. The "point
eight" is for "me" so that it is 4 consecutive marathons.
I'll be looking for a medic type (EMT or paramedic) to hang with the support
team especially for the night portion, as we will be in the middle of
nowhere.
Still tring to figure out who/how many runners (teams, etc) may want to run
so we can figure out the logistics. A crew relay race from Fox to Santa
Clarita on the 3rd was discussed. It would be nice to know if we can make
that happen, so we can interface with LACO Sheriff's office, etc. And, if
enough folks want to try to do something like that, it would be a good idea
to set up a little ICS structure of people that can plan and execute
it.....Quite frankly so I don't have to worry about it. Although I would
certainly help.
Anyway, I hope we can make this event at least as successful as the last
one. If not doubley so. Let's start getting the word out now, so we can
reach as many people as we can.
MELLIE: I've been reading a few posts Re: cancer, etc. There has been some
research done lately as to higher than average cancer rates among endurance
athletes....Which of course wildland firefighters are. Anyway, I tried to
get some links for it at lunch today, but was "Dyna-Blocked". Seems that
because of the massive amounts of O2 processed by these individuals, they
produce higher levels of Free Radicals in their systems......Sounds like a
good project for you. More free radicals+smoke and all the other crap that
firefighters deal with?????? Anyway, I've made sure that I'm getting a
higher level of anti-oxidants in my diet.
About jumping and hazard pay. The reason that rookie smokejumpers were given
an automatic GS-5 and second year jumpers a 6 was a deal they made years
ago, as I understand it, so that they would not have to pay hazard for
jumps. Kind of like L.E's getting a factored in H-pay. Although, I guess now
the 5 and 6 are no longer automatic. I can tell you that when we made test
jumps, we were paid hazard due to the use of non-standard equipment
(canopies, harnesses, etc.)
And finally....That S-2 drop was wayyyy tooooo low last night on
"firestorm". See how you can pick out safety issues if you know what you are
looking at? How many of you noticed that?
Again, let's get the word out, and do some more good. Ab, I hope we can work
together again during the run.
Later, KCPOf course we'll work together. Wouldn't miss the fun. OA,
Vicki and Melissa have had their heads together on various projects for the
last few days. I don't doubt this one has been discussed at least in
passing. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
Ab,
This recommendation came from the South Canyon Fire investigation report:
"Attitudes and leadership are universal factors that influence safe
fire suppression. The Interagency Management Review Team should explore
actions that will strengthen sensitivity to basic safety standards so
they permeate every fiber of our strategy, tactics, and basic fire
operations."
Perhaps we're getting close to reaching that goal. Certainly there is a
"sensitivity to basic safety standards" that was not evident a decade ago.
Not every fiber is permeated yet, but enough to cause the firestorm over the
Firestorm program.
vfd cap'n
ps, I've missed both episodes because of station meetings, but my father has
been impressed by the gritty portrayal of life on the fireline. |
| 1/25 |
Hi Ab,
First thanks to all of you for what you do.
"Into the Firestorm" finally had it's debut up in Western Washington in the
Pacific Northwest and I viewed the first show last night. After reading all
the previous posts about line gear and rolled up sleeves, I was eager to
view what the media had to say about wildfire and firefighters.
I'd have to say that I found all the earlier posts to be out of balance with
the entire first segment. I don't deny that the footage used was
unfortunate, but when I viewed all the additional footage and dialogue
devoted to safety in sizing up a fire, and insuring tactical objectives do
not compromise fire fighter safety, I 'd be inclined to believe that our
profession received better than average media treatment.
I especially want to thank the Redmond Jumpers, and Hotshots for doing an
admirable job representing our profession to the media. I've had plenty of
opportunities to work with both groups many times as a member of one of
Washington's Interagency Incident Management Teams here in Washington and
down in Oregon, and they never disappoint. Keep up the good work, and I for
one don't think two seconds of rolled up sleeves equals forty minutes of
excellent and safe firefighting!
Norwester |
| 1/25 |
I want to get into wildland fire fighting/smoke jumping. Right now I am in
collage but I dont know what for yet. I go to Northern Michigan University
in Marquette MI. Is it good to have some sort of degree? I think it would be
really existing to do with my life. My name is shawn gray and i was just
wondering how to get started.
Shawn Gary
email- sgray@ nmu.edu |
| 1/25 |
"Always" the movie: I was jumping out of MSO when the movie was made. They
actually paid the FS for some practice jumps on the Koonai during a control
burn to simulate a fire jump but none of the footage ever made it to the
screen. I'm older than most, not as old as some, but I can remember the days
(35+ years ago) when carrying a flask on the line was common, as was beer in
the fire camps, and driving govt vehicles to the bars when on project
assignment. The Alaska fire service used to provide shuttle service to the
various entertainment centers in downtown FBX. I don't suppose they still do
that?
Joe Hill |
| 1/25 |
IAWF Board member Tony Blanks from Tasmania posted this on "Firenet":
For Australian FireNetters who may be interested, the following info is
shamelessly copied from a bulletin produced by the Australasian Fire
Authorities Council For those in North America, multiply the areas given in
hectares by 2.5 to get the area in acres.
Overview of fire situation
Victoria and South Australia.
Wednesday 25 January 2006
The fire situation in South East Australia is heavily taxing the resources
of State fire agencies. In addition, severe fire weather has been forecast
for the new few days. Consequently, support resources have been requested by
Victoria and South Australia.
Fire Situation Overview
1.SOUTH AUSTRALIA
South Australian firefighters are still working on the Ngarkat Fire (North
Eastern) and Kangaroo Island fire. However, both are in a contained state.
There are no going fires at present. However, the state has a blanket of
smoke in many areas resulting mainly from the fires in Victoria.
2.VICTORIA
Around 1,000 CFA and DSE personnel are managing a large number of fires at
present. The main fires being:
· In the Grampians (western Victoria) where the 105,000 ha fire is
threatening 6 townships.
· Near Anakie (between Geelong and Ballarat) which burnt 7,000 ha and closed
the Geelong-Ballan Road.
· Moondara fires where 132,000 ha have been burnt near Erica. The risk
continues under today's NE winds, particularly for pine plantations north of
Yallourn North.
3. WESTERN AUSTRALIA
The tropical cyclone over the Tiwi Islands brought favourable conditions to
southern Western Australia. Approximately 2-3mm of rainfall fell overnight
on their major fire near Dwellingup. This aided the fire suppression. Now
the focus is on consolidation via tracking and mopping up.
Firefighter Resource Movements
1. SOUTH AUSTRALIA
(i) Aircraft
Under the NSFC arrangements, the Sydney based Bell 214B, operated by
McDermott Aviation has been deployed to South Australia for a period up to
Friday, 27th January.
(ii) Firefighters
· Strike teams are travelling from NSW Rural Fire Services to provide
support. The contingent consists of 9 light and 10 heavy units with 98
firefighters.
· There is a possibility that these NSW resources may be further redeployed
to Victoria should South Australia be able to improve its fire risk and
should Victoria's situation worsen.
· Both NSW and Qld have provided air attack supervisors to SA to assist with
their operations.
2.VICTORIA
(i) Aircraft
The Sydney based Skycrane operated by Sydney Helicopter Service has been
moved under NAFC arrangements from NSW to Victoria. It is expected to stay
at least until Friday, 27th January.
(ii) Firefighters
· A contingent of NSW firefighters is currently in or in transit to
Melbourne. This NSW contingent comprises 140 firefighters from Rural Fire
Service, NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service and Forests NSW. They will
have with them 10 heavy and 9 light tankers. At this stage the firefighters
will be deployed to the Grampians and Mondarra fires.
· NSW is also forming another contingent of 100 personnel for deployment to
Victoria later today.
Tasmania is considering a request for the formation of 50 firefighters to be
deployed to Victoria.
Regards,
Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania
sent in by Dick Mangan |
| 1/25 |
Want to catch a glimpse of Original Ab - any of you folks in Boise?
Better rush right out to the WFF, or swing by the monument or the
wildland firefighter statue at the Boise Airport. He's been helping out at
the Foundation over the last few days while enjoying the warm, sunny balmy
weather (tongue firmly in cheek, brrrrr)... If you see him, give him a
yah'hoo; bet it would surprise the pants off him. This message will
self-destruct in about two hours! (hawhaw)
Ab. (while the Original Ab-ster's away, the other Ab will play!) |
| 1/25 |
Had to comment on the Always Movie. I think in '84 I was on a fire in
Eastern Montana, near St. Marys.
Anyway Spielberg was already working on Always and sent a crew up to get
some background footage of retardant. The day they arrived it was over and
snowed that night. Lots of FS folks in nomex went to the bar in St. Marys
(east entrance to Glacier NP) and we closed down the bar. Lots of Government
vehicles in the parking lot to take us the 1 mile back to camp (safety
issue/ grizzly bears??). I remember shots of peppermint schnapps with beer
chasers with a couple of jumpers.
The Always crew was at the bar and I recall them being somewhat obnoxious.
So I think they got the wrong Idea. So there was music and dancing and drunk
people in Nomex. Ah the bad old days!
I also was in the discovery movie Wildfire (my 5 minutes) for the prescribed
fire portion. The production crew was all from the UK and they were drinking
Miller GD at lunch. They told me they left the excess in the creek (for us).
I went back a year later and it was still there (and could still be). My how
things have changed.
Recently retired Z |
| 1/25 |
Into the Firestorm on the Discovery Channel I think we need to look at the
positive aspects of this program. I've worked on fires for many years as a
smokechaser, helitak, and as a jumper. I now work as an information person.
I've been involved with many different fire projects such as escorting film
crews to fires, working as a consultant/editor with authors, and as a
technical advisor on a couple of major feature films. Let me say this. It's
all for public viewing and entertainment.
Also, no author, director/screenwriter gets it right or perfect. Ask anyone
in any given profession that have had their work portrayed in a feature
film, book or documentary, what they think about the finished product. The
majority of professionals will scoff at what they've seen and that's just
human nature. We're all very serious about what we do regardless of our
jobs. We all want to be portrayed as honestly as we can and it's normal for
us to criticize those people who put in thousands of hours of hard work and
effort trying and believing they are doing us justice. Well maybe these
media folks don't get it just right. Maybe we and the millions of viewers
including our elected Senators and Representatives (think budgets here) are
looking through a very brief window into what exactly it is we professionals
are trying to accomplish. Newspaper reporters rarely get the story straight
either, but the next day their story is on the bottom of the birdcage.
What we are experiencing now with these various media is just the proverbial
tip of the iceberg. Three years ago I had a very pushy fellow from CNN tell
me he was going to become embedded with smokejumpers for an entire summer.
He also told me he had skydiving experience and his plan was to jump into
fires so he could report on these jumper fires "Live" to the American
public. I explained our policies and hopefully educated this wayward guy in
what exactly he could or could not do. He still didn't budge and indicated
that he had been in Iraq and embedded with various military units with, "hot
lead flying everywhere." Much to his dismay, I told him it wasn't going to
happen. We professionals, working as public servants need to help these
media folks and educate them as best as we can. Just because they have
agendas doesn't mean they're headed in the right direction.
As for the safety aspects of "Into the Firestorm." I always had my gloves,
fireshelter, hardhat, and Nomex with me, but I couldn't always wear it all
at the same time. Certain things can get in the way of work.
Have a safe and great 2006.
FF-49
I enjoyed the show last night. Had no interest in rewinding and
throwing it in slow'mo' to see who was wearing what, when. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
I just wanted to say props to the men and women of Prineville and Redmond. I
had a great time working with many of you over the past summer. I wish the
yahoos that have all this time to rip on these guys could put as much heart
into going to congress to figure out a stable budget, maybe even voice their
opinions to the right people who might give us more funding to train and
bring up the organization to a higher level. It seems that so many people
are around to voice their opinion on what we did wrong but, those same
people aren't around to do the real work.
J |
| 1/25 |
So, there is a ~500 acre fire on the Berdoo, yet the SoOps Intel site says
nothing about it. Well, it has not been updated for almost 2 weeks, so
I guess that makes sense... ?!?!?
Oh, and the links to the team's sites don't work either.
I will keep harping on this till someone down there wakes up!
Still WaitingWell, don't wait too long. It's likely on a RipVanWinkle
timeframe. You can always check the Hot List Forum on this site under
FireNews.
Lot'sa action there! And the team lists that are available via our
FireLinks page under fed'ral. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
From Firescribe, one of them:
Firefighter Charged With Arson in Nevada
Got this from a firefighter friend who asked what might be done ahead of
time to help:
... this family of firefighters... we need to stick together and
start helping the
people that are about over the edge. I don’t know if talking to people
thinking
this way would help, but could it? I'm having a hard time with this.
I want to know, if we can identify people who might be prone to arson,
could we help
them avoid that behavior?
Firescribe |
| 1/24 |
Greetings all,
I am just getting to see the second episode of Firestorm, I did recognize
the helo that long lined supplies into the shots as dropping water for us
here in east Texas. Small world ain't it!
Got word today that several resources are demob'ing since we got a good rain
over the weekend, I, for one, appreciate all the help that we have gotten
from everyone.
Ken Hancock, the Volunteer Firefighter that was struck by a train responding
to a wildfire was released from the hospital on the 9th of Jan. He has
started rehab therapy and is starting to walk around a bit, he's a very
lucky man.
Thanks to Vicki Minor and the
Wildland Firefighter
Foundation for all of their help and encouragement to the Hancock
family.
Stay safe all,Keith |
| 1/24 |
Into the Firestorm is on the Discovery Channel at 2200. |
| 1/24 |
The closest to Always I have experienced was the
Hayman Fire, CO, Castle Rock ICP. It was near Denver
and there was a lot of support from the community.
Food; The Red Cross was cooking good stuff, and
homemade goodies were coming in and everyone was
eating there. The IC had declared that firefighters
had to eat at the Contract Kitchen at the Morning
briefing. Bad day to make that declaration, as Texas
Roadhouse brought out their barbecue pits and set
upwind of the ICP, needless to say the Team did not
put out a good example that day.
Massage; There were 3 chiropractors that came in and
treatment was free. There were also three Lady's in
shorts and tank tops with massage tables that had the
guys lined up, I passed as I did not want to pitch a
tent in front of the crowd.
Shopping; The Red Cross had all kinds of donated stuff
they were handing out, personal care, clothes, undies,
you name it. Personally I would have weighed crews
leaving to check if they had 50 lbs of pack with them,
it was looking bad with all the stuff some crews took
away.
Alcohol; There was one grateful elderly home owner
that drove thru Camp in a big Mercedes handing out
cold beer until someone told them they could not do
that. (I missed that one).
Tunes; Sad to say that with ICP at the Fairgrounds, we
cancelled a few big name concerts that were going to
happen there. But sometimes someone has a guitar or a
character with a banjo.
There are some times when you can't believe they pay
you to do Fire sometimes, then other times you wonder what in the heck you
were thinking. I feel for the
first time firefighter that got to experience it and
be disappointed at the next fire.
COMT |
| 1/24 |
echo mt:
Quick response to the question that was posted as to
the risk analysis and the option to jump the fire.
The day prior to the fire jump: a local crew started
to hike in, during which time it was determined to be
a greater task than originally planned. For reasons
unknown to me, they turned around. That evening it was
determined that the fire (30'X30' tops and human
caused) would be staffed in the AM using jumpers. We
received the request the night before that we would be
going. The coordinates were relayed to the film team,
and the x-jumper accompanying the group. That is how
they got into the fire in time to film. Lots of
footage from several angles, and several other fires
that were all put together for entertainment (i was
followed for a month and a half; on and off the
clock). I will not go any further for now, except that
I can't believe the free time that people have to
critique us.
I hope everyone can watch the next 4
episodes for there pleasure and if not, I suggest that
you read a good book. Enjoy them, because I will be
greatly surprised if any fire crew will ever let a
film crew shoot footage again.
b
I, for one, hope that's not the case. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
The Risk Management question is a good one.
It is a statistical fact that flying to and from a fire is actually safer
than driving. Parachuting is considered so safe the Smokejumpers are not
entitled to Hazard Pay for their jumps, no glamour there. If the agency
practiced true statically based risk management every fire would be jumped.
It's a statistically safer means of delivering firefighters to a fire.
Bsel |
| 1/24 |
So, if "Into the Firestorm" has been sufficiently critiqued....let's
lighten the discussion.
Reference: "Always" with Richard Dreyfuss, Holly Hunter, John Goodman,
Audrey Hepburn (my personal favorite firefighting film).
Question: What is the closest you have been to a fire camp experience as
portrayed in the film? Live band, fried chicken, cold beer, and grubby
firefighters?
Winning story earns a chorus of "Buuullllllllllsh*****" from the rest of
us.
Old Fire GuyAir guitar. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
G'day Ab
OB rang and asked if I could chase up where to send condolences for Captain
Trevor Day as I'm a long term firey in the same organisation as Trevor
(CFA). Unfortunately I was unable to determine whether his brigade has email
(they certainly don't have a webpage) and currently his Region (the
administrative headquarters) is busy with controlling the major fires in the
area as well as the tragedy of this accident.
Consequently I have set up a thread in the International Firefighters' Day (IFFD)
forum where people can leave their condolence messages for his friends and
family which I will ensure are sent through to the relevant people. The link
is:
www.iffd.net/iffdforum/viewtopic.php?t=48
You may also wish to check out the IFFD website
www.iffd.net and possibly
put a link to it on your site (that OB has so kindly directed me to). (IFFD
was initially begun due to tragic loss of 5 firefighters at a wildfire in
1998).
Thanks for setting up a great website - I look forward to exploring it.
Cheers
JJThanks, JJ. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
ALRIGHT FOLKS...
WOW...not a single (there is 1 now...) FEED-BACK, or OPINION IS POST CHANNEL.COM IN RELATION TO THE SHOW. r>
SAD, SAD, SAD...
http://community.discovery.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/8081928318
Check this link, or if it doesn't work just go to the main site and follow
your nose.
*bewildered*
-Joatmon |
| 1/24 |
If the film crew hiked into the Echo Mountain fire, and was able to get
there... as the video shows , as the jumpers were performing operations...
why was it jumped? Was this a risk management process or glamour for the
boys? Sign me, Curious |
| 1/23 |
Just like the other guys and girls that I work with, I stay away from these
kinds of discussions. However after having received a call from my buddy on
Prineville I thought I should check it out. What I have found is sad, This
is a chat-room full of angry people.......News-flash you were not there with
us, you don't know how safe we are, so stop criticizing us. The guys from
Original Productions shot hundreds of hours of footage, some is real and
some is exaggerated. It was cut so that people would want to talk about and
watch it, it obviously worked. Gary and RR make good points and having
worked with them for the last 5 years I can tell you that they are safe and
very competent jumpers. I would love to write more, but I think they did a
good job expressing my feelings and concerns in fire. Plus if I keep going
it may turn into personal attacks at some of the stupid things people have
written.
To the person wanting to know how they made it to the echo mountain
fire.....The film crew hired an ex-jumper to help them navigate through the
woods and keep them safe on the fire line. It was good timing and allot of
running through the woods.
Watch the show and take it for what it is A SHOW! and please stop wearing
your leather gloves clipped to your belt loop in the bar.
jh |
| 1/23 |
Thanks, A Firefighter.
I don't have a beef with what was or wasn't done in the "Into the Firestorm"
piece. Filmmakers are notorious for splicing film out of order to entertain
and to send the message they want to send in an artistic way. I thought the
message overall was good: crew cohesion, crew watching out, overhead
attentiveness, overhead corrections, lookouts, briefings, etc. as well as
good humor, virtuous air guitar, hard work in beautiful country. The
filmmakers had real insight.I'm looking forward to tomorrow night's show.
I think this series is a very good thing. I am willing to participate in
such a show. If I did, the things to be discussed would probably be similar
to what is being discussed this time around.
Just Another Firefighter,
I was not implying that the "Into the Firestorm" series should be a training
film. I wasn't even suggesting that it was perfectly realistic in every
detail. The flavor was realistic. I appreciate Gary's and RR's
clarifications. What they said was what I thought likely about how it
happened and what got focused on. I just felt that Squib was a bit strong on
the 'I don't do this and I don't do that'. I was trying to keep the
discussion about 'the what, not the who' so I didn't mention his name in
that context. Sorry if I was unclear. Overall I don't think anyone needs
defending (or vilifying (sp?)).
I have my tivo set to record for tomorrow... fire and bird flu
NorCal Tom |
| 1/23 |
NorCalTom...I don’t imagine that the hotshots or the jumpers had the
intention of providing a training film, looks to me they were just filmed
doing their jobs. Seems to me that how younger firefighters interpret that
depends on the quality of the training they are receiving at home. If you
have young firefighters to "mold" as you call it don’t rely on a TV program
to do it.
By the way I have never seen a FS/BLM/DFWL unit that could take that kind of
scrutiny unscathed. Anyone who currently does know of one let me know I'm
ready for a transfer.
Just Another Firefighter |
| 1/23 |
Thanks NorCal Tom!
Your insight is refreshing. I know of a film crew interested in following
around some firefighters next summer. They are very good at capturing your
every move and manipulating it for entertainment purposes. Tom if, by
chance, you are in charge of an overhead team in Northern California that's
even better. The entire fire community can spend all next winter critiquing
several episodes of the actions of every firefighter under your command from
the cozy comforts of our living room recliners (rolled-up shirt sleeves and
all) and holding you and everyone under you on your team accountable. Note:
The Hot Shot crew was working for a OH team. NorCal Tom, come out of the
shadows and step up to the plate like the Hotshots and Jumpers so we can
introduce you to a couple of film crews. If you're all about what you say
your about that is great. Lets see you, or anyone one else for that matter,
in action on film as a role model for others, that's leadership.
A Firefigher |
| 1/23 |
Oz LODD I acknowledge it's the northern winter and the quiet time up there
allowing for
introspection, however things are still happening in the rest of the world..
Firefighters mourn
their loss
OB
Our condolences OB. No man is an island. The world is small. Please
give our best to friends and family of Trevor Day if you have the
opportunity. Do you have an address where we can send our condolences? Ab. |
| 1/23 |
Squib, OK I see your point, but let's keep this in perspective. Experience
plays into common sense decision-making and into depth of situational
awareness. You may have it, others who are younger, don't.
What about the new firefighters, say 18-22 year olds, who are without
much fire experience and haven't had the "licks" that show them they're not
invincible? They don't yet have those "watchout" common-sense slides in the
mental slide tray. Say they don't wear their gloves or they don't roll down
their sleeves when they logically should.
Some do push the limits their squaddies and supts set. It gets old fast
when you have to ride herd on those who don't have the experience to ride
herd on themselves. That's why the culture of safety is critical and should
be modeled from the top down. As "old Alvord" once said, parents usually
don't let kids play in the street on their own until they've done it for
some time under the watchful eye and common sense of an older brother or
sister. The experienced ones model and explain to the younger. If they
violate a logical safety standard, they explain why.
So I'll add to what you said. You need to be aware of the message you
send when you don't wear a shelter or other PPE. It may be common sense and
safe to you. To the inexperienced and without your explanation, it may not
be the same message.
NorCal Tom |
| 1/23 |
RE: Discovery Series
Fellow Wildland Fire Fighters!
I routinely work on an overhead team during the summer months. I
deliberately don’t carry my fire-shelter on me while sitting, or traveling
in a vehicle on wildfires… It rides in the back of my truck, or exterior
side compartment. There is no waiver that I know of excusing myself, or any
other firefighter from having to wear a fire-shelter while sitting, or
traveling in a vehicle on an uncontrolled fire. I guess I’m in VIOLATION of
a PPE rule, as is the rest of my team- the same goes for all my engine
cohorts. I can, and will, argue that my shelter in the back of my vehicle is
readily available and close at hand, and always is. The same ought to be
said for the Hotshots and Jumper’s when they had their shelters positioned
next to them on the ground. People in vehicles should not have the luxury of
being excused from carrying a fire-shelter at all times just because they
have a vehicle that “carries” their fire-shelter for them. A vehicle is not
a fire-shelter or approved safety zone and it’s loaded with flammable fuel.
Where’s the common sense? That’s my point. We need more of it. So the
jumpers took-off their packs containing fire shelters and positioned them on
the ground next to them, took off their gloves, rolled-up their sleeves and
got to work mopping-up a very small piece of burnt earth using their tools
and bare hands. It looked to me like they had solid black- the safest place
to be, a safety zone.
How about this: A firefighter traveling inside and around a wildfire, seat
belted to the inside a vehicle containing 30+gallons of gasoline, and
perhaps some cans of gas and diesel fuel in the back, no gloves on, and no
hardhat on, and not wearing a fire-shelter. Wow! It sounds pretty bad
doesn’t it? Technically that person is on a wildfire not wearing PPE. Rules
are absolutes. Bending/Breaking rules on fires, we never do that!!! No doubt
the overhead in the vehicle would be misinterpreted as one of those “rogue”
firefighters you hear about. Think about it..
Good thing that TV crew wasn’t following me around capturing every moment
for all the fire community to critique. My every day actions could easily be
taken out of context… For example, I routinely work without gloved hands.
The gloves are on, and then they’re off, and then back on. I set them aside
for extended periods of time to operate my portable radio, feel in the
blackened ash for heat, and handle my flammable paperwork. I roll-up my
sleeves just enough to prevent chaffing from the dust/sleeve combination
while feeling my way through the cold ash on small spots outside the line. I
occasionally undo the top two, three or more buttons on my fire shirt on hot
days... What a rogue I am.. The air conditioning in the vehicle never works
and we all know how hot and dusty it can get on those fires- particularly
when leaning over a scolding hot truck hood, reviewing plans, or reading a
map. I regularly find myself inadvertently rolling back my sleeves in
reaction to the stifling heat.... I deliberately wear an old style fire
shirt that I don’t keep totally clean (canary yellow). Otherwise, people
might think I haven’t been working, or look seasoned enough to be leading
others…
Lets get away from the myopic, hypersensitive application of the ever
conflicting rule based system and avoid the hypocrisy we continue mire our
fire program in. It does nothing to improve safety. Lets bring about true
change thru positive open dialog and support one another. The Discovery
series will help. Support the folks participating in the show. They’re doing
a difficult job in a dynamic environment and should be commended for
stepping up to the plate.
Squib
25+ Years working hard on the fireline. |
| 1/23 |
Firefighters, Oprah Winfrey is going to have Dr. Michael Osterholm (sp?)
on her show tomorrow talking about the coming bird flu pandemic. Today my
daughter (east coast) told me her topic was terrorism. At the end of today's
show, she set things up for tomorrow. She said:
"I URGE you to watch tomorrow's show and prepare to
have your eyes opened in a HUGE way. It may be one
of the most important shows we've ever done."
I can't watch it until I get home tomorrow, but I'm set up to tape it. I
hope everyone who can watch it will watch. If you firefighters don't want to
watch Oprah,
get your Significant Other to watch and ask her/him some questions
afterwards. I need to order my N-95 masks tonight, before the run on them.
Hotshot's mom |
| 1/23 |
Re: going to the Southern Area
I know Arizona State resources cant go out due to $$$$$$$$$$. The State
doesn't have enough money to pay the departments and wait to get reimbursed
from the southern states or Feds. There are plenty willing to go, like
myself. Engines, STEL, etc. Federal resources can go, but Arizona State
resources (all fire departments) cannot. Kind of a depressing situation, and
one we hopefully can get changed.
AZfirefighter |
| 1/23 |
Can we stop talking about such minute issues as rolled up sleeves and
smelly hot shots and discuss a real safety concern? Three firefighters were
entrapped this past summer and deployed fire shelters. Check out the
I90 report.
www.fs.fed.us/r1/fire_r1/
Thanks
stil jumpn' |
| 1/23 |
Misery Whip:
I think it is an unfortunate circumstance for wildland firefighters that
duty calls for more than what the job description says. It might be the bird
flu, a terrorist attack, or the next big California quake. Fairly or
unfairly - with or without proper training or equipment - "green pants" are
expected to respond.
BSEL wrote this fallacy in a 1/21 post:
"It is a well-known fact that the number of fireline fatalities has
exponentially increased since its introduction."
Actually, Jim Cook has documented the opposite trend. Wildland firefighter
entrapment fatalities have seen a continued, steady decline since the
introduction and widespread use of fire shelters. The full paper is at
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/usfs_doctrine/entrapment-fatality-trends.htm
vfd cap'n |
| 1/23 |
Ab & All,
I just got back from an assignment in Oklahoma, and we had a heck of a time
ordering resources, especially overhead. Although Oklahoma is ordering
resources from the Southern State Compact first (13 southern state agreement
to send state resources), even when went to ROSS, we had trouble filling
orders. I am assuming Texas is in the same situation. I know this is a
downtime for many of us, and think that is why there aren’t more people in
ROSS. So…..if you are interested in going out, please make yourselves
available in ROSS!
Take care,
Information Diva |
| 1/23 |
Regarding Into the Firestorm...
I had a question for the Redmond jumpers about something that has been
bothering me since I saw the show: How did the camera crew get to the
Echo Mountain fire?
Cheers on this fine Monday morning....
Young and Dumb in Region One |
| 1/22 |
I've had the benefit of working with and learning from the boys and girls
from Redmond for many, many years while rx burning and fighting fire in the
SE. Situational awareness and safety is what they are ALL about. The
documentary, as Gary and RR said, didn't capture the real story and all the
training, all the briefings, all the experience and background they take
with them everytime they hit a fire. Newbies would benefit from working side
by side with the men and women from both prineville and redmond.
They sure taught me well -
grl4ster |
| 1/21 |
Abs, All--
I would first like to tender my apologies for any inflammatory comments I
made earlier. I was angered and frustrated, and didnt really think before I
hit the send button.
What it is that angers and frustrates me is that we, as hotshots, finally
got equal billing with the Jumpers, our day in the sun as it were, and all
that people could think to do was rip on us and assume that we just
willfully break regulations willy nilly without any forethought or reasons
why. The engine folks, and there are many good ones, bore the brunt of my
wrath because on our district they are the ones that fuel these kinds of
jibes and try to do anything they can to cripple our program, that they
might get more assignments and we, fewer.
Engines are big and powerful, and whenever someone sees one they immediately
think "Yeay, the firefighters are here to help us!" More often than not,
when we arrive, we are viewed as convicts and subject to impolite scrutiny.
So, the comments made touched a nerve more than anything, and I responded
whilst my ire was still roused.
That being said, there is a definite disconnect between policy makers and
ground personnel. With all of the safety regulations and checklists, it is
nigh on impossible to adhere strictly to all of them and still maintain any
sort of productivity. So we do what we do best..... mitigate risk.
If you followed any of my previous posts at all regarding the Cramer fire,
you know that I believe in individual firefighter accountability, and this
has been beaten into me by my supe, foreman, squaddies, and crew members for
a long time now. We show our rookies what is expected of them, how to stay
safe, and how to judge and monitor fire, but eventually the gloves have to
come off and they must be allowed to make their own judgments.
Another word about sleeves up and gloves off, as these are the most common
infractions on our crew--
If fire behavior is picking up, most people will unconsciously roll down
their sleeves and adjust their gloves. The organism is smart enough to
protect itself. I know of one very solid hotshot crew that doesnt carry
helmet shrouds on the theory that they insulate the firefighter too much
from their environment, and this can be a bigger safety hazard than the
protection afforded.
Think about it -- haven't you ever stuck in there longer and took more heat
because you had a shroud? Or stretched your shirtsleeves to cover over that
little patch of skin between your gloves and cuffs? I bet you have without
thinking about it, and this is what that crew is striving to avoid; hiding
behind technology. I think that there is wisdom in it.
So, that is my piece, and I apologize again for any hurt feelings. Any posts
incoming that slam me for my previous writing are well deserved. My bad.
Class C Sagebrush FallerHaw haw, we all are subject to that knee jerk.
We Abs got together night before last. Reading over the replies, we were
both ready to rush to the keyboard willy nilly to toss in our 2 cents worth!
Ab. |
| 1/21 |
Hi, Ab.
A few people hit on it, but most have totally missed it. You can have all
your PPE on and wear your shelter to bed, but it wont do you any good unless
you have SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. Unfortunately, SA cannot be issued. Good SA
comes from training and experience. When you spend as much time on the line
| |