The Law of Air Guitar and others,

You bring up some good points. I think many in the wildland firefighting profession have been doing risk analysis for years and just never realized it. I also believe that some land managers have, and continue to do, risk analysis by sitting at their desks and making more rules for the fire program. Fire management, at least in the Forest Service, has a new doctrine that is having the bugs worked out of it.... a doctrine that takes many of us back to the times we started as a wildland firefighter.

Risk analysis is a key process in reaching the “Commander's Intent”, or “Leader's Intent” as found throughout the changes being addressed in Doctrinal Review. Probably the most important “intent” of today’s wildland fire mission is that each firefighter returns home safely after every assignment. That principle intent is “Fight fire aggressively but PROVIDE for SAFETY first.”

In Fire Suppression: Foundational Doctrine (USDA Forest Service, 2005), the following quotes may be useful in understanding the concept:

> Tom Harbour, Director of Fire and Aviation Management

“Let me open with a quote I like from Dee Hock (Visa founder): ‘Simple clear purpose and principles give rise to complex intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple stupid behavior.’ We are focused on defining those simple clear principles that will encourage complex intelligent behavior.”

> Mark Smith, Mission Centered Solutions

“Doctrine is the body of principles (not rules) that guides an organization’s activities and actions. A principle is the moral or ethical standard that forms the foundation of judgment, mode of action, decision, and behavior. Doctrine is the expression of the fundamental framework, concepts, and principles that guide the planning and conduct of operations. It is authoritative but flexible. Doctrine must be definitive enough to guide specific operation, yet adaptable enough to address diverse and varied situations.”

> Document Body

“Though the environment and the mission of the wildland fire fighter is demanding increased agility in decision making, the fire fighters’ ability to adapt and react has become more constrained. Fire line performance expectations have become increasingly rules-driven at the expense of addressing the fundamental human factors that lead to critical decision errors, delayed judgments, and improper actions.”

Now let’s get back to the point and use the sleeves up vs. down discussion as a basis for Doctrinal Review. Some posters believe that you should always have your sleeves down, while others believe it is appropriate for the supervisors to allow variation of the rule. Who is right? The answer is both, depending upon risk analysis and the “Commanders Intent”.

Risk analysis is something that is learned from experience and not the NWCG Risk Analysis Checklist. Using the risk analysis technique, a supervisor on a hotline assignment may determine that all the firefighters may need to have their sleeves rolled down to prevent burn injuries. They also may determine that sleeves need to be rolled down to prevent exposure to cuts from chaparral or exposure to poison oak. Contrarily, a supervisor using risk analysis under a different set of circumstances may determine the greatest threat of safety may be heat stress and allow his or her firefighters to roll their sleeves up. Both of the supervisors are meeting the “Commanders Intent”.

Before you jump to the keyboard for a reply, ask yourself these questions. Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, who wants people to come home each day or a commander that wants people to follow rules that may or may not apply to each situation found in the wildland firefighting environment? Are you a commander, or do you have a commander, using risk management, experience, and education to make the best decisions? Doctrinal Review is what it is all about.

Lobotomy

P.S. – I still can’t find a reason that someone would wear a shirt soaked in oil and exhaust, sleeves up or down, on or near the fireline. It exposes the wearer to both short term (fire) and long term (health) hazards…. God only knows what it exposes their families to.

Great comments a few days back..... Are you one of the REAL
Warthogs?? If so, one squeel (salute) for you.

RC

Thought it would be timely to let all of you know the current situation associated with NIMO. At the December meeting of the NFAEB, the following decisions were made:

• Recruit and fill 2 NIMO teams this year (Proposed location is the SE (Atlanta) and the West (Boise).
• Recruit and fill the NIMO coordinator position in Boise.
• Monitor the effectiveness of these teams in meeting objectives before filling any additional teams (annual decision by NFAEB).

A follow-up conference call was held on Jan. 24 with the Regional FS FAM

Directors where the following was shared by the WO (FAM):

• FS will fund the first two teams.
• Salaries will be paid from suppression.
• Outreach should begin with the month.
• Target for vacancy announcement is April.
• All available qualified personnel may apply (Temporary and Term positions - will be flown both Demo and agency wide) IPA's if needed will be used for non-fed partners.
• Looking at virtual offices to reduce moving costs and potential problems of establishing appropriate office space.

I'll keep you posted as I hear more, and Marc Rounsaville is planning on discussing NIMO at the annual meeting. Thanks, ML

Michael H. Lohrey
Incident Commander, PNW National Team 2
Chair, National IC/AC Group

JS

In the spring of 1968 I left home in my 57 Chevy for a helitack job, and asked my best friend to take care of my girlfriend. He took way too much care of her, impairing our friendship for-- always. On the other hand, I also happened to fall for a young lady, Kathy, that summer whom I met at the local dance hall with my helitack team. We had a wonderful romance and remained friends, but I ended up marrying Kathy’s best friend, Lynn, who I met at Kathy’s cabin the next summer while on the helitack team again. She was the most outgoing, gregarious and fun person I had ever met, the opposite of my own overly serious and introverted personality.

When I lead the hotshot crew in 1971 Lynn was right there with me and the crew, organizing softball games, playing cards with us, teaching the shy crew-members how to dance to the cowboy music. One evening after a fire we all went to the local bar- steak house- pool room- dance hall for dinner. I had picked up Lynn and showered. Many of the crew had not bothered to clean up. Lynn was beating most of the crew at pool when she asked some drunk lady to move a little so she could make a tight shot, but the drunk started a fight with her.

The crew and I broke up the cat-fight but in the process a local tough guy with a bad reputation slugged me in the side of the face and we got into it. Despite their impaired situational awareness, the crew had us quickly paralyzed with bear hugs, in a pile on the bar-room floor. We introduced ourselves as we suspiciously loosened our grips. The local tough guy apologized, saying he wouldn’t have hit me if he had he known who I was. We bought each other a beer and Lynn finished whipping the crew at pool.

Over that summer, unwittingly, Lynn did more to further our group dynamics and build crew cohesion than I could have ever done. Lynn became chronically ill from cystic fibrosis. Even during her many hospitalizations, her room was always filled with friends, flowers, card games and joy. When the doctors had done all they could, Lynn came home with grace, and died peacefully in our bed. This ended my connection to people I was with in the fire service. These were among the most exciting, challenging and romantic times of my life. I eventually remarried, raised a family and lived happily ever after, but I always remember with great fondness my time with the fire service, with my crew members, with the people I met along the way- always.

But tomorrow I will be up early to discuss fire law with a hundred hotshot supervisors from Regions 3, 8 and 9. An opportunity to meet with some of the best people on Earth- always.

Old Sawyer

Sweet. Ab.

Hi Ab,

Just a heads up on the fad of the LaSportiva boots that several are trying out. LaSportiva has a terrible warranty process. I purchased a pair of the Makalu and had a flaw in workmanship. Went to the retailer and they tried to replace the boot but the boots have to be sent back to LaSportiva and they decide if it warrants a repair, replacement, etc. Retailer even called the company and told them the boot was faulty and wanted to replace them. No way, the boot had to be sent in.

Next question- What do you do while you wait for them to decide? Do you have an extra pair laying around? I would stick with the firefighting boot companies that have always been there! I know of an example where a guys boots broke down on a fire. Called the boot company and a pair were sent overnight to the fire camp. No questions asked! So beware.

CS

Ab thanks for forwarding the feedback. Yeah, power lines...

I still see vehicles parked and staged, ICP's and DP's under power lines.
Some folks still need to look up once and a while.

Thanks for the input . . . .and the opportunity to ask.

Dave C

The final day for getting your prework to the r5 490 coordinator is fast
approaching. Please have it in by the 10th. And study hard, version 3
of behave plus.

Last year we had some folks claim that the turn around time for the
prestudy and prework is too quick, can I ask how fast you would
respond to a fire assignment?

And what else are people with this course on their training developmen
plan doing in January anyway?

Take care,
anotherdave

Iraqi health authorities go on bird flu alert
Five mobile hospitals with special equipment were due to arrive in northern Iraq later today.

HeeeEEEYYYYYyyyy!! I'm not THAT old! ..ok, well meb'be I am. Lets just say that we were still wearin' the old wide orange fire shelter at the time. And to be honest, of the 2 times that forbidden nectar was partaken of in inappropriate times in my career, I will say it was definitely never done in excess...we (the crew elders) wouldn't allow it. Just a nice cold one after a long day. RE the photo: Nope, that was a picture taken the morning after a crew get together. Completely legit.

OK, here is an anti "Always moment": After a particularly long shift (way before the 16hr limits of today), a group of crews finally made it into camp one evening.( I believe this was at the same Happy Camp that someone mentioned recently, but of course a different fire). We bellied up to the chow wagon in anticipation of some hot food and low and behold they were taking the sandwiches out of the remainder of the days sack lunches and grilling them up for us! GRRRRR. The regional guru at the time caught wind of it and the last I saw of him he was stomping off to some bigwig tent. By the time we got up the next morning a brand new caterer was moved in and set up ready to go. YEA!!!!!!

Pulaski

MS
MVU

His note:

Fellow Firefighters,

Today I end my firefighting career with CDF spanning some 48 years. I leave you
with my favorite axiom that applies not only on the fire line: “Only the spirit of attack
born in a brave heart will bring success on the fire ground.”

I got to live the dream!

Bill Clayton
Firefighter

Thoughts and prayers for Will's family and friends... sad day.

Mellie

Pulaski is not a young wip'er'snapper. I'm sure this was some looong years ago during his handcrew days... Wann'a fill us in on the year, P? Were these the remains? Ab.

Thanks for the information, Sandy. Condolences to Will's family, to you and your crew and to all who knew Will and called him friend. Please be safe everyone. Ab.

Former HS

Condolences. Ab.

“…The ‘design set of rules,’ written to meet the worst-case scenario
imagined, were bound to be interpreted as overly controlling and as an
unreasonable burden on operators in the field. In contingency language, the rules
didn’t match the situation most of the time.

"When the rules don’t match, pragmatic individuals adjust their behavior
accordingly; they act in ways that better align with their perceptions of current
demands. In short, they break the rules. According to General Carleton, the Task
Force Commander who took over after General Pilkington was relieved:
‘Violations of policy and guidance occur minute by minute out there. Some are
willful violations, but most are not.’…

"Such mismatches between the local demands of the situation and those of
global design rules occurred with increasing regularity as operators gained
personal experience in the field. As a result, the pervasive demands of day-to-day
practice inevitably shifted the logic of action from one based primarily on formal
rules, to one driven more tightly by the task—the ever-present demands of
minute-to-minute practice. Over time, the seductive persistence of pragmatic
practice loosens the grip of even the most rational and well-designed formal
procedures. I call this phenomenon ‘practical drift’—the slow, steady uncoupling
of local practice from written procedure…” (Snook 2000, p. 192-194)

I believe that it was this process of "Practical Drift" that people picked up on when watching the Discovery Channel series, and has led to such vociferous debate.

One other comment--
Many now have commented on how far wide of the mark the show has missed the "reality" of being on the line.  Small wonder, when the only way to capture the reality of being on a fire is to do it.  I would like to postulate that instead of capturing reality, the series has done a good job of capturing the flavor, or the spirit, of  the experience, which is all that the producers could really hope to do.  Food for thought.

Class C Sagebrush Faller

Glad you and your family made it Casey. Your house looks great. Lots of defensible space around it. Lots of room for those kids to grow up in too. Ab.

Our Fire Department is trying purchase through GSA. Our State does not allow it
unless we are covered by our Forest Fire Service. We are not.

So can anyone help with this?
Fire Chief John D'Ascensio

KCP,

I'm not ignoring you on the cancer and extreme athlete risk issues, just trying to
get a moment to reply. Thanks for the heads up on that issue.

Women extreme-athletes frequently have their hormones messed up which results
in cessation of menstruation. This is true of marathoners, gymnasts, and others like
wildland firefighters who engage in long-term, physically stressful training/working
regimens. Men probably are equally changed hormonally, there are just no markers
that give the outward sign.

If we add in other environmental stressors such as smoke and all the electronic gear
you carry on your bodies for long hours, I have no doubt that there's a toll (increased
"allostatic load") on the body that increases your risk for cancer.

Yep, I be thinking on it.

Mellie

“I think it is an unfortunate circumstance for wildland firefighters that duty calls for more than what the job description says. It might be the bird flu, a terrorist attack, or the next big California quake. Fairly or unfairly - with or without proper training or equipment - "green pants" are expected to respond.”

There are several different definitions for the word “duty” in the dictionary. If you are referring to the definition of duty as something that must be done for moral reasons, then I agree that I will probably count myself among the thousands of “green pants” who will answer the all-risk call when it comes again. As we know it surely will.

But there is another definition of duty, in which both parties have obligations through previous agreements, that is not presently being met by the federal land management and disaster management agencies. I currently work in a secondary wildland firefighter position, my primary job is something else. There is no mention of all-risk in my job description. Officially, no one has ever told me that I must respond to all-risk incidents. I have received zero training in all-risk.

On the fire side, I have a ton of training I’ve received over the years. I pretty much know the risks in wildland fire and feel that it is a reasonable bargain to take these risks, even though I have seen dozens of friends and acquaintances die during my career. In return for what I give and risk when I work on fires, I make a living and derive satisfaction from this work. I accept that it is my duty to be a wildland firefighter and to respond as such when called.

So are you implying that my previous obligation and agreement to be a wildland firefighter means that I must now also expose myself to EXTREMELY hazardous environments and chaotic civil circumstances without any renegotiation of that agreement? It seems to me that if our government wants to use us in a capacity for which we are not trained, then they have a DUTY TO US to tell us up front that they want us to perform these missions, what we are expected to do on these missions, to tell us about the risks of these missions, and to pay, equip, and train us appropriately.

All-risk at least deserves hazardous duty pay, don’t you think?

The latter definition of duty is the one I have been using.

By the way, as much as I respect Jim Cook, Jim Saveland’s excellent paper from the 2005 Wildland Fire Safety Summit “Integral Leadership and Signal Detection for High Reliability Organizing and Learning” indicates there has been no real recent downward trend in entrapment fatalities. Here’s the link:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Saveland.pdf

EMBO,

You old far*, it was really good to see your post on They Said. What dark hole have you been hiding in?

Misery Whip

Stanford to begin human tests of bird flu vaccine

Stanford Medical Center is already recruiting research volunteers so they can begin the screening process. They are looking for healthy adults between the ages of 18 and 64 to take part in the experimental testing. The phone number to volunteer is (650) 498-7284.

They just posted the trial on their website. http://vaccines.stanford.edu/clinical_trials.html

A randomized, placebo-controlled, Phase I/II, dose-ranging study of the safety, reactogenicity, and immunogenicity of intermuscular inactivated influenza A/H5N1 vaccine with different adjuvants in healthy adults

• SUMMARY: The emergence of the avian influenza virus strains in human populations outside of the U.S. has added urgency to ongoing efforts to develop plans for responding to potential world-wide outbreak. Three influenza pandemics have occurred during the last century. This study is sponsored by the NIH and will help us compare the safety and immune response of varying doses of an avian influenza vaccine, either alone or when combined with adjuvants (substances designed to enhance immunity). The vaccine will be administered to healthy adults by intramuscular injection in the arm as two doses, given one month apart.
• The study will involve one screening visit and six clinic visits over a 7-8 month period. At the first and third clinic visits, subjects will receive an avian flu vaccine given in one of 8 possible combinations. It is also possible (1 chance in 9) that subjects will receive a placebo vaccine. A blood sample will be taken at each of the screening and clinic visits. Subjects will receive reimbursement for completed study visits ($30.00 per visit). There will be no costs for participation.
• ELIGIBILITY: We are enrolling healthy adults who are 18 to 64 years of age.

FOR MORE INFORMATION: Please contact the Stanford-LPCH Vaccine Program at (650) 498-7284.

Enrollment may close quickly, so please call as soon as possible if interested

(For further information regarding your rights as a participant, please call 1-866-680-2906 or write the Administrative Panel on Human Subjects in Medical Research, Administrative Panels Office, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-5401.)

Mellie

Once again, thanks to all involved. Ab.

The closest fire camp to the movie Always that I have experienced in 32 years of fighting fire with the CDF was the Lexington Fire in the mid 1980’s.

The fire camp was set up at a park and along with the standard feeding arrangements; there were “portable” food kitchens like the kind you would see at a State Fair. They had pizza, snow cones and the other usual Fair Food, there was an AT&T area set up so firefighters could call home, all at no cost! They even provided Massage Tables (quite the line for the service) to ease the fire fighters sore muscles. Of course we slept on the ground….but the rest of the camp was pretty amazing.

With the bag lunches the next day, came the biggest surprise. I was supervising an Inmate hand crew at the time, and when I opened my lunch to see the contents, was surprised to find a Budweiser in the bag! The Captains quickly checked the other lunches and lo and behold each of the brown bags contained a Bud!

Firefly

You were expected to be "older bud'wiser"? Ab.

1. Do smokejumpers ever get the chance to fight bigger and more complex fires like the ones that the Hotshot’s are shown fighting?
2. After watching the show, I am beginning to see the hierarchy. Hotshot’s big fires, Smokejumpers little fires. How many years do you have to be a smokejumper before you can graduate to the ranks of Hotshot? (Do you have to have experience before you become a smokejumper? skydiving, camping, hiking etc.)
3. Is it common for Smokejumpers to not have tools when fighting fire? Or did I miss something on the last episode of the show?
4. Are there any Hotshot crew’s near Walla Walla, WA (my home town)?

I play a wicked air guitar and have been practicing an air guitar version of Whitney Houston’s “I will always Love you.”

Sincerely,
Johnny Wannabe-a-hotshot

HAW, HAW, HAW great trolling. Ab.

I did not change Ken's name to initials (as I do with ALL posts) because we know Ken already. If you want a pic to go with the name, scroll back to one of the last posts on the 2x52 mile run. Yeah, he helped raise mega-bucks for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation last year. Ab.

EMBO

Sign up NOW!

OB

The FWFSA website is being revamped. It's easy to sign up. Ab.

The Wyoming Office of State Lands and Investments, Forestry Division, is currently recruiting supervisors and crewmembers for the Wyoming Helitack Crew for the 2006 Fire Season. See their announcement on the Jobs Page.

Ab.

Welcome RP, glad something pushed your button. I think the process here has been just ducky. People state their mind, people re'butt, we come to some common understanding, even the ones who cited safety issues at the beginning have a differen't perspective, I'll bet. We're all watching avidly. The Public is tuning in. My guess is they'll run the show again the next time fire hits the news. We're getting waaaay too much email from young people wanting to be wildland firefighters - hotshots and smoke jumpers. Better the show aired now when they can actually apply for firefighting jobs and work their way up to hotshot or SJ caliber and experience. Gives 'em some time to practice their air guitar too. (I finally retired mine, but I loved that thing.) Ab.

Welcome RJM. Ab.

Undoubtedly it will be what it will be, but I think the conditions in the SW are set up for a very active season there. Kibby said no rains for the last 100 days. Maybe no rains until the monsoon? Could be a year like 1996 in the SW . If so, could be exciting. Be safe! Ab.

I know all personnel were out of there because I was the one to make sure of it. As for the drop, I did forget to mention that there was a considerable amount of old punky snags burning and had requested a few low drops, you know aerial tree falling. One thing about the show is a least they have shown interest in our profession.

Socal Cap
P.S. What type of plane do you fly?

Sounds like a good experience. My closest to "Always" was Seiad Valley in
1987. Community really took care of us. Camp was there for a long time.

Things I saw:

Large screen television brought in to watch the baseball playoffs.

JiffyPop available to crews to cook over the camp salamanders at night.

There was a townhall dance/band one evening.

R&R was arranged to go to Medford, but IC allowed the crews that wanted
to stay in place and just relax for two days. Locals provided free "guide"
service for salmon fishing......I remember a type 2 crew from Tennessee
member caught a 20 pound salmon. He said it was the experience of a
lifetime for him. Another local traded him a smoked salmon for his fresh
caught, so there was a special treat at dinner that night.

Never did catch up with Holly Hunter though....

Old Fire Guy

AV

Hi there,

I was interested in learning more about the Smokejumpers here in Central
Oregon. I saw on the "They Said" portion of your website a Redmond,
Oregon smokejumper by the name of Gary Atteberry, is there any way to
get in touch with him? I have many questions about being a smokejumper
and would like to know more. Thank you for your help and have a great
day!

Deanna

There's a smokejumpers' forum here: www.smokejumpers.com/ You can always find that link on our links page.
Here's some info on what smokejumpers do and a sj base contact list: www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/index.html
Now don't you go botherin' Gary. (gosh, the unexpected effects of stardom!) Ab.

By the way.....the t-shirt post reminded me.

I thought a neat way to raise a few extra bucks for the run would be to sell advertising on my shirt. If any hotshot, helitack, etc crews out there want...send me a patch, and I will sew it on my shirt for the run. This shirt currently is on the wall in Boise at the WFF and will be returned there after this event.

Right now, There's a Fulton HS and generic Smokejumper patch. Texas Canyon and Bear Divide will get a spot (fee waived for running with me last year).

If anyone is interested, I thought a flat rate of $20.00 would be cool, huh? I'm a pretty little guy so space is limited. Although there will be two shirts (night and day).

If you folks think this is a good idea, I will give my home address to Ab.

Later, KCP

Little guy?... big heart. Take care of that knee. Ab.

The t-shirt collection is just about complete; only lacking two shirts from having all of them that are currently in the system  along with some real treasures. Still missing Mt. Taylor and Vandenberg.

Anyway I wanted you to know that the book of stories connected with the shirts is coming along. I try and write in it every week and Mellie is going to help... Hopefully to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

Someone asked me the other day what I was going to do when I had all the shirts collected. Well I found quite a few older shirts, so I guess I will try and find them... with stories...

There are 133 in the collection currently displayed on the wall at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. That's amazing!!!! I would also like to invite everyone who gets to Boise to check them out at the foundation. They have been quite a hit according to Vicki.

Rowdy

List of shirts still needed:

Current shirts:

Mt. Taylor
Vandenberg

Older shirts:

Here's the page of shirts Rowdy has with the people who gave them to him... and links to 2 photos of the wall. Seeing is believing and it's even more awesome to be there exercising all the senses. Ab.

Wish they would show more equipment on the line and less close ups of the flames and sparks. The camera man and cutting room is sure doing its best to make it look like the people and trucks are in those flames! Funny how a camera can zoom into a hot spot and make it look like it is all around you. You see some crews totally dressed for fires and some not. Like they are two different groups on the same fire? Still seems to be a lot of safety issues in PPE but this film is designed for drama and action shots.

Looking forward to the next one but most of all it is getting me pumped up for the 2006 fire season! I wish our snow would melt faster and summer was here!

Region 6

Just a quick note on the low drop by the S-2.

Two factors:

• First, the shot was taken with a telephoto lens and looks a lot
  lower than it really is... low yes but:
• ALL fire personnel were out of the drop zone while the aircraft
  applied the retardant and because of the canopy closure the
  planes have to get lower for effective penetration.

Remember 10s&18s & LCES...

Socal Cap

Just call this community "reliable" for coming up with intel. Ab.

Quite an amusing portrait of wildland firefighting....
The air guitar dude on Prineville was sure cool. Speaking of Prineville-
Good critique about tree falling- it is important to not drop trees on your fellow firefighters.
And I hope the burn heals up on that other guy.
You guys need to remember to whistle whenever you carry your handtools on your shoulders!
At least then when you fall on your handtools you will do so cheerfully.
One or two instances of these things might not matter, but when taken in its entirety, maybe it's time for
Prineville to take a long look into its soul. "Cool" only matters to mindless spectators -it has no place on the fireline. I know -this stuff happens to us all, no need to expect different.
Neither should we expect anything to change in the death and injury stats which heap ever more
liability and checklists on those of us who manage this mess.
I don't need to hear any sniveling about the "twisted media", I have been around the block enough to realize what was sensational hallucination and what was crew attitude during this exclusive TV extravaganza.
By next summer, maybe Prineville's standards will match our expectations of what a Type 1 Crew is supposed to be. I sure hope so.
Until then thanks for the entertainment.
To the jumpers- Howie Long would be proud.
PS-Where do I get one of those green hard hats?

Old, Pissed Off Warthog

(chuckle) Warthog, if yer serious about the green Bullard, Supply Cache has them. Click the sponsor banner at the top of the page. Ab.

Anyone know how to reach Doug? Ab.

Of course we'll work together. Wouldn't miss the fun. OA, Vicki and Melissa have had their heads together on various projects for the last few days. I don't doubt this one has been discussed at least in passing. Ab.

"Attitudes and leadership are universal factors that influence safe fire suppression. The Interagency Management Review Team should explore actions that will strengthen sensitivity to basic safety standards so they permeate every fiber of our strategy, tactics, and basic fire operations."

Perhaps we're getting close to reaching that goal. Certainly there is a "sensitivity to basic safety standards" that was not evident a decade ago. Not every fiber is permeated yet, but enough to cause the firestorm over the Firestorm program.

vfd cap'n

ps, I've missed both episodes because of station meetings, but my father has been impressed by the gritty portrayal of life on the fireline.

I was jumping out of MSO when the movie was made. They actually paid the FS for some practice jumps on the Koonai during a control burn to simulate a fire jump but none of the footage ever made it to the screen. I'm older than most, not as old as some, but I can remember the days (35+ years ago) when carrying a flask on the line was common, as was beer in the fire camps, and driving govt vehicles to the bars when on project assignment. The Alaska fire service used to provide shuttle service to the various entertainment centers in downtown FBX. I don't suppose they still do that?

Joe Hill

Better rush right out to the WFF, or swing by the monument or the wildland firefighter statue at the Boise Airport. He's been helping out at the Foundation over the last few days while enjoying the warm, sunny balmy weather (tongue firmly in cheek, brrrrr)... If you see him, give him a yah'hoo; bet it would surprise the pants off him. This message will self-destruct in about two hours! (hawhaw)

Ab. (while the Original Ab-ster's away, the other Ab will play!)

I think we need to look at the positive aspects of this program. I've worked on fires for many years as a smokechaser, helitak, and as a jumper. I now work as an information person. I've been involved with many different fire projects such as escorting film crews to fires, working as a consultant/editor with authors, and as a technical advisor on a couple of major feature films. Let me say this. It's all for public viewing and entertainment.

Also, no author, director/screenwriter gets it right or perfect. Ask anyone in any given profession that have had their work portrayed in a feature film, book or documentary, what they think about the finished product. The majority of professionals will scoff at what they've seen and that's just human nature. We're all very serious about what we do regardless of our jobs. We all want to be portrayed as honestly as we can and it's normal for us to criticize those people who put in thousands of hours of hard work and effort trying and believing they are doing us justice. Well maybe these media folks don't get it just right. Maybe we and the millions of viewers including our elected Senators and Representatives (think budgets here) are looking through a very brief window into what exactly it is we professionals are trying to accomplish. Newspaper reporters rarely get the story straight either, but the next day their story is on the bottom of the birdcage.

What we are experiencing now with these various media is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Three years ago I had a very pushy fellow from CNN tell me he was going to become embedded with smokejumpers for an entire summer. He also told me he had skydiving experience and his plan was to jump into fires so he could report on these jumper fires "Live" to the American public. I explained our policies and hopefully educated this wayward guy in what exactly he could or could not do. He still didn't budge and indicated that he had been in Iraq and embedded with various military units with, "hot lead flying everywhere." Much to his dismay, I told him it wasn't going to happen. We professionals, working as public servants need to help these media folks and educate them as best as we can. Just because they have agendas doesn't mean they're headed in the right direction.

As for the safety aspects of "Into the Firestorm." I always had my gloves, fireshelter, hardhat, and Nomex with me, but I couldn't always wear it all at the same time. Certain things can get in the way of work.

Have a safe and great 2006.

FF-49

I enjoyed the show last night. Had no interest in rewinding and throwing it in slow'mo' to see who was wearing what, when. Ab.

J

Well, don't wait too long. It's likely on a RipVanWinkle timeframe. You can always check the Hot List Forum on this site under FireNews. Lot'sa action there! And the team lists that are available via our FireLinks page under fed'ral. Ab.

Firefighter Charged With Arson in Nevada

Got this from a firefighter friend who asked what might be done ahead of time to help:

... this family of firefighters... we need to stick together and start helping the
people that are about over the edge. I don’t know if talking to people thinking
this way would help, but could it? I'm having a hard time with this.

I want to know, if we can identify people who might be prone to arson, could we help
them avoid that behavior?

Firescribe

Keith

I hope everyone can watch the next 4 episodes for there pleasure and if not, I suggest that you read a good book. Enjoy them, because I will be greatly surprised if any fire crew will ever let a film crew shoot footage again.

b

I, for one, hope that's not the case. Ab.

It is a statistical fact that flying to and from a fire is actually safer than driving. Parachuting is considered so safe the Smokejumpers are not entitled to Hazard Pay for their jumps, no glamour there. If the agency practiced true statically based risk management every fire would be jumped. It's a statistically safer means of delivering firefighters to a fire.

Bsel

Air guitar. Ab.

Thanks, JJ. Ab.

Gary and RR make good points and having worked with them for the last 5 years I can tell you that they are safe and very competent jumpers. I would love to write more, but I think they did a good job expressing my feelings and concerns in fire. Plus if I keep going it may turn into personal attacks at some of the stupid things people have written.

To the person wanting to know how they made it to the echo mountain fire.....The film crew hired an ex-jumper to help them navigate through the woods and keep them safe on the fire line. It was good timing and allot of running through the woods.

Watch the show and take it for what it is A SHOW! and please stop wearing your leather gloves clipped to your belt loop in the bar.

jh

I'm looking forward to tomorrow night's show. I think this series is a very good thing. I am willing to participate in such a show. If I did, the things to be discussed would probably be similar to what is being discussed this time around.

Just Another Firefighter,
I was not implying that the "Into the Firestorm" series should be a training film. I wasn't even suggesting that it was perfectly realistic in every detail. The flavor was realistic. I appreciate Gary's and RR's clarifications. What they said was what I thought likely about how it happened and what got focused on. I just felt that Squib was a bit strong on the 'I don't do this and I don't do that'. I was trying to keep the discussion about 'the what, not the who' so I didn't mention his name in that context. Sorry if I was unclear. Overall I don't think anyone needs defending (or vilifying (sp?)).

I have my tivo set to record for tomorrow... fire and bird flu

NorCal Tom

I acknowledge it's the northern winter and the quiet time up there allowing for
introspection, however things are still happening in the rest of the world..

Firefighters mourn their loss

OB

Our condolences OB. No man is an island. The world is small. Please give our best to friends and family of Trevor Day if you have the opportunity. Do you have an address where we can send our condolences? Ab.

OK I see your point, but let's keep this in perspective. Experience plays into common sense decision-making and into depth of situational awareness. You may have it, others who are younger, don't.

What about the new firefighters, say 18-22 year olds, who are without much fire experience and haven't had the "licks" that show them they're not invincible? They don't yet have those "watchout" common-sense slides in the mental slide tray. Say they don't wear their gloves or they don't roll down their sleeves when they logically should.

Some do push the limits their squaddies and supts set. It gets old fast when you have to ride herd on those who don't have the experience to ride herd on themselves. That's why the culture of safety is critical and should be modeled from the top down. As "old Alvord" once said, parents usually don't let kids play in the street on their own until they've done it for some time under the watchful eye and common sense of an older brother or sister. The experienced ones model and explain to the younger. If they violate a logical safety standard, they explain why.

So I'll add to what you said. You need to be aware of the message you send when you don't wear a shelter or other PPE. It may be common sense and safe to you. To the inexperienced and without your explanation, it may not be the same message.

NorCal Tom

Oprah Winfrey is going to have Dr. Michael Osterholm (sp?) on her show tomorrow talking about the coming bird flu pandemic. Today my daughter (east coast) told me her topic was terrorism. At the end of today's show, she set things up for tomorrow. She said:

"I URGE you to watch tomorrow's show and prepare to
have your eyes opened in a HUGE way. It may be one
of the most important shows we've ever done."

I can't watch it until I get home tomorrow, but I'm set up to tape it. I hope everyone who can watch it will watch. If you firefighters don't want to watch Oprah, get your Significant Other to watch and ask her/him some questions afterwards. I need to order my N-95 masks tonight, before the run on them.

Hotshot's mom

They sure taught me well -
grl4ster

Haw haw, we all are subject to that knee jerk. We Abs got together night before last. Reading over the replies, we were both ready to rush to the keyboard willy nilly to toss in our 2 cents worth! Ab.