During the current fiscal year, 500 fire-fighting jobs in the aviation program, including the famed smoke-jumpers, will be examined for outplacement to interested contractors;

• In FY 2007, approximately half of the agency’s law enforcement agents and rangers (600 positions), the jobs of all of its geologists (500 jobs) and 1,100 biologists who prepare environmental studies on the impacts of timber sales, oil and gas leasing and other actions on national forest lands may be put out to bid;
• In FY 2008, the agency’s entire network of scientists and other researchers (2,000 slots) and 3,000 foresters and range conservation staff positions will be reviewed for outsourcing potential
• “The Forest Service appears to be having an internal fire sale, with the heart of our national forests put out for bid on eBay,” stated Jeff Ruch, PEER Executive Director. “We may soon see the Weyerhaeuser National Forest patrolled by rent-a-rangers, overseen by private consultants.”

In 2003, an outsourcing plan of similar scope, designed to meet Bush administration outsourcing quotas prior to the 2004 election, was halted by Congressional action. Then, as now, one of the major concerns was the added cost to the Forest Service to conduct the studies and stage the competitions. In its latest proposed budget, the Bush administration is cutting back Forest Service operating funds without providing any new funds to pay for this broad undertaking. In 2003, the Forest Service spent an estimated $360 million on studies but produced no identifiable savings.

Large scale outsourcing also has a dampening impact on sagging employee morale, already depressed by shrinking budgets. To make matters more contentious, the Forest Service is advancing its plan without consulting the unions representing affected employees.

“For decades, this agency has invoked the phrase ‘Forest Service family’ to connote a cohesive, close-knit organization, but this plan puts whole branches of the family on the auction block,” Ruch added, noting that effective contract management has not been one of the strong suits of the federal government. “This whole misguided effort is an example of mindless management by slogan lacking in any analysis as to how to make the Forest Service actually run better or more efficiently.”

###

Read the new Forest Service Outsourcing Plan (pdf file)

This is the Outsourcing Review process that all of the FS is undergoing, dictated by Congress. Readers can ask Tom Harbour about this at the Chief Officers Meeting in Reno tomorrow. Ab.

It had been quite warm here in norcal for a week, but heavy rain now.

Pyrolsis

We burned star thistle on our meadow in Trinity County over the weekend. This was following a full week of sun and some drying winds. Boy was it dry flashy fuel. It was awesome! Good we didn't have winds when it was burning.

Love that little drip torch. (What are the proportions of diesel to gas? My nephew mixed it up and we didn't blow up! Phew. It dripped just fine! What fun!)

I'll send in some photos when I get a chance.

Mellie

thanks dan

Ab.

I'm glad there are still some folks around that remember. My father was a mechanic at Sis-Q for a number of years. (Dave Greeson) Unfortunately dad passed on Aug. 2004. I remember spending a few long nights on tanker 49. Hope everybody from that place and those days are well.

Jeff Greeson

If R5 loses the so called 40 engines, how many are NOPS vs OSC? I believe we will hear alot at the meeting this week, so let's make sure we ask about this and remain FIRM!! One last thing to add to this, who knows where they are gonna make the cuts? If you do the math, 40 engines equals 280 positions cut or 200 depending on the daily staffing levels of the engines. Now if you add all these modules up --just in salaries for 5 day staffing figured as year round it's easier that way-- this is a savings of 89 million dollars. Now if they surplus the engines figuring they will get rid of the older stuff first, at say $25,000 each, it's 1 million... so $90 million saved with the cuts. For 90 million dollars saved I bet that this can become real folks, so we need to make a stand and fight! It's our jobs plain and simple and if you're a new hire with little time in well here is the door, is something you might hear very soon!!

I hope this kinda opens some eyes to this issue cause I know if they are able to save 90 million dollars going back to the pre MEL staffing it looks good on paper!!!!!

NORCAL CAPT

You yourself can ask Tom Harbour these questions on Tuesday at the R5 Chief Officers' Meeting. Ask away... Somebody's got to. Ab.

An answer for Brian in cleaning out his pack. Is he an engine or crew guy. If crew travel
a bit light but have: socks X 3, toothbrush, leatherman, washcloth, 4 liters water (In my
younger days 4 one liter or 1/5 liter bottles), 3 mre (make sure they are ones you like
and none that are old, they taste terrible after a while), 1 extra tshirt, handbook, at least
1 fuses, taskbook, redcard, and what ever else fits.

If engine travel heavy, remember the engine can carry a lot, but your daypack can be light.

Zimm

Bob,

Back in the 70's SIS-Q flying service flew out Santa Rosa,Ukiah, Paso
Robles fleet included DC-6s, F7Fs, PBY and S2Fs. In 1974 SIS-Q lost
two pilots and two F7F air tankers one accident occurred on take off
from Rohnerville and one near Hopland tail number E31.

Rhino

Here's a good idea for changing the ways we do investigations. I believe it's
similar to the peer review process for academic and scientific papers.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/mgmt/briefing_papers/peer_review_panels.pdf

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Rogue Rivers for your comments. Ditto on those.

Here are two additional items from the report that have potential effects on the wildland fire program.

"ESF-9 must include the United States Forest Service’s (USFS), DOI and EPA capabilities to perform search and rescue operations. USFS is given the role as primary agency under ESF-4: Firefighting and as supporting agency under ESF-9. DOI is a principal partner with USFS in carrying out ESF-4 functions. As firefighters make up a large percentage of FEMA Urban Search and Rescue teams, their expertise and capabilities should also contribute to search and rescue operations. Under SF-9, the mission statements of USFS and DOI should include the availability of firefighting personnel, not just equipment and supplies, for use in search and rescue operations. ESF-9 must include the capabilities of all participants in the National Search and Rescue Committee.

"In addition, USDA’s Forest Service deployed approximately 300-350 law enforcement officers to the affected area as members of ESF-4 Incident Management Teams. Eventually, over 3,500 Federal law enforcement officers were deployed to the region."

It seems to me and seemed so at the time that the Forest Service performed well and provided the first contingent of federal law enforcement officers, set up good camps, but was under utilized in the fire arena and the ESF function 4 responsibilities.

This is much like H-527 being turned around enroute to Louisiana, as fires burned.

Mellie

Thanks, OA.

See the link below.  fire-shelter.pdf  Thanks to the other folks who sent this in. Ab.

fire-shelters.pdf  (2,206K pdf file)

Pass it along.

TC

hi

was there a tanker company called siskue aviation, a friend of mine named
Norm Silver said he flew F7F;s for them in the 70's.

thanks

Bob Nance
(retired fireman/helicopter pilot)

Sign me "Bluesman"

Thanks for setting the record straight. Ab.

FYI --The Roseburg, Oregon school shooting victim is the son of
the late Vic Monti, of Lassen NF.

Student Critically Injured In Roseburg, Oregon School Shooting

DS

We'll keep him in our thoughts and prayers. Ab.

"All Federal departments and agencies should align their response structures to NIMS. In accordance with this alignment, the entire Federal response structure should be NIMS based, reporting through one unified command using the same terminology and basic organizational structure. Although ICS is a field command structure, developing an understanding of the ICS at all levels will eliminate confusion, standardize operations throughout the government, and limit unnecessary interference with field command. DHS should lead a review of all Federal department and agency response operations plans to guarantee conformance with NIMS and the NRP, from response teams to command post operations."

Appendix B - What Went Right

"About 3,000 members of the Forest Service also deployed to the region to support response efforts. Arriving in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, and Alabama, Forest Service personnel established support camps, provided aviation assistance, and transported desperately needed supplies to relief workers. The base camps they established were capable of supporting 1,000 emergency responders at each site. They bolstered the destroyed aircraft infrastructure in the region with their own fixed wing planes and helicopters. They also helped navigate the Federal procurement system and successfully obtained needed emergency response supplies. These activities allowed local and state emergency response personnel to focus on response rather than worrying about the supplies and other support they needed."

I would have to wonder how things would have gone better if they allowed more of the Incident Management Teams to manage incidents rather than just providing logistical support in many cases? The press articles today saying the response should be in the hands of the military needs to be really rethought.... they should be in the hands of incident managers.

Rogue Rivers

thank you so much!!!

DelRosa IHC reunion guy

Ab note from the paper: A memorial service will be held 2 p.m. Saturday, Feb. 25, at the Retz Funeral Home Chapel, Helena. A reception will follow at the West Valley Fire Hall on Forestvale Road. Memorials in Darrell’s name are suggested to the Darrell Wittke’s Children Education Fund, c/o the Elkhorn Federal Credit Union at Fort Harrison, MT 59636.

Todd, please give our condolences to his family if you have an opportunity to speak with them. Ab.

Thanx. That is basically the info I was looking for. I've read the same thing about them from others but not from someone on the line. I will probably find myself around the ICP since I am trained as an FBAN, RESL, SOF2 or DMOB Unit Leader. Those Corcorans may be well placed in an office/light duty setting. Thanx again. The search continues.

D F

DHS Website, Press Room

It's 228 pages. The guts of the report is 85 pages, but the recommendations are in the appendix, hmmmm... 17 sections of recommendations... I'm interested in what they think NIMs should be and do. Hopefully they don't recommend undoing any of NIMs. This is of concern because it will determine the next set of policy changes... if any.

Could be a weekend read, in the sun at the ranch, glass of lemonade, large straw hat, feet propped up, while the guys dig the trench... Yeah, right...

Mellie

Generally I just wore my regular work boots, 8" terra lites that are gortex and steel toed. I work in a multi-task workplace with firefighting generally taking up no more than 20% of my time. I decided to buy a 10" unlined boot to use solely for wildland firefighting. The terra's are a good boot but fire wrecks havoc on them and I have no back-up pair. Last weekend I strolled into the local army surplus and was surprised to see a brand new pair of Corcoran jump boots sitting on the shelf. I picked them up. I never seemed to have the time when out west to question the guys or gals on the unit crews which type of boot they preferred or how they maintained them. Thanx for responding.

Dawg Fude

I'm just assuming here but you must stand morning inspections in them Corcoran's because that's about the only thing they're good for. Ask any Paratrooper, who has more than 5 jumps, about Corcorans. I spent 5 years in Army Airborne units (236 jumps) and my Corcoran's stayed highly shined, but out of the way until the next Class "A" inspection. On the fireline you'd probably be better off with a pair of flip-flops.

Kamie

Old Sawyer.

Amazing but not surprising…

I just want to personally send my appreciation to all of you who jumped so quickly when you realized what was needed. Often that’s all it takes. There are so many people who want to help but really aren’t sure how. And, sadly, there are also many people who could really use help, but don’t know exactly how to ask. Hopefully, the “Wood For Krs” effort will send a message in a gentle way…. If you need something…or know someone who needs something, just let it be known. If you don’t feel comfortable posting the information or request in such a public venue as this, contact Vicky Minor or any of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation crew (208) 336-2996) . They are facilitators extraordinaire. Thanks to you too Abs, for your valuable role in this.

Now…for world peace…

Ciao,
Shari Downhill

Remember that OUR Wildland Firefighter Foundation needs 52 Club memberships.
It's a new year. This is our community's "security blanket". OUR Foundation has demonstrated this over and over; this is no BS. The Foundation steps up but only if we SIGN UP! Get your crew to sign up! Ab.

”If you over order on a fire and you stop it, you will hear about it for
the rest of the season, If you under order on a fire and you lose it,
you will hear about it for the rest of your career”!!

Firefly

I've bought a pair of Corcoran "jump" boots and am going through the
painful break-in. Do you or anyone you know use these boots for wildland
FF? I've read they are a great jump and parade boot but may be a tad
hard on the feet for heavy field use. Also, from most of the articles and
advice I've gotten, I've decided to treat them with a a leather conditioner
and Nikwax. I've been west fighting fires as a Div Sup and of course see
these hotshot crews working diligently on their boots (probably a better
chance getting a date with their girlfriends than borrowing their boots for
an evening).

Anywho, this is a rookie request so before the pros jump on a "boot"
question, I'll let you know I've researched the subject way too much but
have yet to get an opinion(s) from someone who has actually put their
boots to the black. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dawg Fude

Sting and Lobotomy, thanks. Mellie, good memory.

Ab did a search on "Fires give the test just ahead of the lesson" and look what I found from BLM Bob in 2000. He had more "truths" in categories -- We even made a page for them: Tactical Truths

• Fire Ops,
• Planning,
• Working with People,
• Taking Care of Yourself, and
• Important Things You Will Learn.

Hey BLM Bob, do you know where these came from? Clearly they've been around for a while... part of wildland firefighter culture.

Searched on this one, too: "Experience is knowledge you gain, right after you need it." Boo (Texas Forest Service) sent that in first time in 2000. That got added to Bob's list and posted later on the Scratch Lines page (in 2004). Good stuff. I'm adding BLM Bob's Tactical Truth link to the Links Page under Miscellaneous so we don't loose track of it again.

Ab.

My only suggestion on getting a kit is to write down every thing you think you will need and stick with the most necessary items. Gloves, burn kit, gauze etc. My jump kit weights in at around 65lbs and trying to run around with that slung over your shoulder is not easy.

One more vital thing is to get the training because it doesn't do you one bit of good if you have no idea what in the H*LL you are doing.

That may seem pretty strong for a few and I am not out to start a fight, but it is the truth. If you are out of your local area and you end up on a serious accident make sure you get with the local TTC and get the briefing done.

TTC is trained trauma counselor.

Cris

He's in Oregon. Ab.

Past vol. chief in NJ

Good enough. There are still willing helpers in the works, so don't hesitate to ask for next winter. Ab.

Could just be lack of knowledge/experience with firefighting?

I haven't been on in a while, so I may be a little late. I live in Chico, and would be more than happy to help Krs with warmth this winter or next. I can provide manpower only since I am car bound, I do have a saw though. ABs can pass on my e-mail to anyone, I will help in any way possible.

Pyrolysis

Thanks, I'll pass the message along. Ab.

I passed the info on. Thanks, Ab.

So much emphasis has was placed on pointing fingers and assigning blame for the fatality that focus on many other things that were learned from this incident have lost the attention that they deserve. These need to be brought to the forefront so that others might benefit and learn from this tragedy. At the time of the Cedar Fire, EMS equipment was not part of the regular equipment carried on Novato's Type 3 engines. Fortunately, the crew of engine 6132 had the foresight to pack EMS equipment and IV kits prior to heading down to Southern California.

Their decision to do so quite possibly prevented the Cedar burnover from being a double fatality. The availability of having this equipment allowed the other members of this crew to begin critical treatment for Captain McDonald prior to the arrival of other rescue workers. Novato further benefited by the fact that all members of their crew were paramedics giving an added edge in starting IV's and recognizing that there was a need for an ALS helicopter with a nurse to allow for rapid sequence intubation. This probably saved Captain McDonald's life.

Although it is not realistic to think that paramedics can be assigned to every wildland crew, it is probably to at least prudent to have basic EMS equipment and enough training to intervene in the event of a serious injury. While not having any background in firefighting, it is easy to imagine circumstances that would prevent medical support from reaching the scene of an accident in a timely manner.

Now that the dust is finally settling a bit with the Cedar Fire, I would hope that everyone could reexamine the other lessons from this incident including things such as medical gear, stainless steel brake lines and carbon monoxide monitors for wildland firefighters. Although nothing can change the events of that day, everyone can at least learn from what happened so that things are safer for those that follow on future wildland fires. Both the Novato and Niosh reports outline some recommendations that deserve serious attention to reduce risk as a result of what was learned from this incident.

Keep safe!
Bob Rucker

Novato Report (large pdf file)
Niosh Report

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation (Vicki) is in need of photos and/or video footage of the Forest Service Honor Guard as soon as possible. If anyone has some, please call Burk at the Foundation at (208) 336-2996 to make arrangements to get 'em to them. Vicki is out sick today. Send her some LOVE. We need her healthy and doing her good work.

Thanks,

Ab.

I believe the NPS got approval to train for INSIDE structure
firefighting because they 1. are generally isolated and outside of any
fire protection district boundaries, 2. have responsibility for many
buildings including administrative and motels/lodges/stores/restaurants
etc. inside the park boundaries. Think about Yellowstone or Glacier or
Crater Lake, what are the response times from local communities if there is
a fire or accident.

The Rangers are generally the ones who would respond to a structure
incident with appropriate training and equipment, because they are
responsible for public safety in the parks.

The Forest Service has always had the OK to attack structure fires from the
outside of the structure, and to assist other agencies in structure
firefighting when there is a threat to the wildland or under mutual aid
agreements. As far as I know many Forests have SCBA training and use them
when responding to vehicle fires and structure fires.

I don't know where the FS is not providing training to handle other than
wildland incidents. I received this type of training from day one on an
engine in 1976 and have trained my firefighters to safely work on these
incidents ever since. We worked with local city fire departments and cross
trained with them on, structure, vehicle, propane, hazmat incidents and
vehicle accident extrication so we could safely respond and help until
higher trained crews arrived. We help the city guys with wildland training
as well.

Of course the head shed geeks in D.C. and Boise don't support us being
classified as firefighters or being paid as such. Sorry to say that is an
issue that will remain with us until long after I am out of the business.

Regardless of that it is our best interest and our responsibility to train
our Foresters, Forestry Technicians, 401 Biologists and Range Technicians
to safely deal with these incidents within our agency guidelines and to
work with our friends in congress and the FWFSA to change the rules so we
can recognize federal firefighters for what they are, dedicated fire
service professionals.

Backburnfs

Hi,

I'm interested in some of the Biscuit Fire photos on your website for a story in
Audubon Magazine. Are there high-res (300 dpi at 8x10) images available?
Please let me know.

thanks,
Kim
Photo Editor
Audubon

Here are 4 papers written in 1991 (pdf file) about the growing interface responsibilities,
changing wildland firefighter roles and mutual aid.  I understand that one of the co-authors
is currently the Special Assistant to Chief Dale Bosworth.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FACTORS INFLUENCING WILDLAND/URBAN INTERFACE EMERGENCY RESPONSES
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams

Introduction. The wildland firefighters' Job is changing, due in large measure to problems associated with the wildland/urban interface. More development is occurring at the edge of forest boundaries, on tracts of private land within forest boundaries, and in metropolitan areas within easy drives of the forest. There are more residents, more tourists, and increased values at risk. Wildland firefighters are increasingly encountering structural fires and other non-wildland fire emergency assistance situations. Historically, it has been common practice for wildland firefighters in the USDA Forest Service to respond to reported structural fires, vehicle fires, vehicle accidents, and other situations where. emergency assistance is required. However, the frequency of these situations is increasing as interface pressures intensify. There are concerns that wildland fire fighting resources are being committed to structural protection at the expense of wildland resources. Moreover, managers, crews, and cooperators are concerned whether their wildland training and equipment adequately prepare them to deal with the increasing and varied emergency response situations they now face.

Questions have also been raised that perhaps it is the complex set of cooperative and mutual aid agreements with State and local fire and emergency response organizations that are placing personnel in non-wildland fire situations. Do the agreements have explicit provisions or create informal expectations that wildland organizations will move beyond their traditional wildland fire fighting role?

These concerns, highlighted by the serious interface fire events of recent years, led the Forest Service to undertake a. policy analysis examining these issues. The study examined agency policy and the actions Forests have taken, or anticipate will be taken, to respond, equip and train in the areas of structural fire, search and rescue, emergency medical assistance, and hazardous materials. <etc>

MUTUAL AID IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE: THE SOLUTION OR THE PROBLEM?
by Hanna J. Cortner
Abstract. In response to the wildland/urban fire interface, many cooperative activities involving both wildland and structural fire organizations have occurred. Drawing from a policy analysis study conducted by the USDA Forest Service, the paper discusses the role of mutual aid and cooperative activities in solving interface problems. Generally, most participants in cooperative agreements see more benefits than costs to agreements. Nevertheless, improvements can be made to remove inequities, reduce exposure to situations that pose risks, and ensure that mutual aid and other forms of cooperative arrangements do not create more interface problems than they solve.

THE CHANGING ROLE OF THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams
Abstract. Increasing human presence in wildland areas is changing the traditional role of the wildland firefighter. Wildland fire crews are being exposed to more non-wildland fire emergencies, including structural fire, search and rescue, medical assists, and hazardous materials incidents. This paper reports on a policy analysis done by one wildland agency, the USDA Forest Service, that gathered information from field-level. employees and agency cooperators about the scope and magnitude of these types of emergency responses. While no one wanted the Forest Service to become a full-fledged structural fire department or an all-risk emergency responder, several issues that need addressing were identified. They include: training and equipment requirements, accounting and compensation procedures, and cooperative agreements and activities with public safety organizations and the development community.

RESOURCES OR STRUCTURES: FIRE SUPPRESSION PRIORITIES IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE
by Hanna J. Cortner and Ted Lorensen
Abstract. The paper explores the issue of fire suppression priorities in the wildland-urban interface. Tradeoffs between natural resources and structures can occur in two instances: single fire incidents where the presence of structures may influence decisions about what strategies and tactics to use; and multiple fire incidents where resources are sent to the fires where structures are threatened. The entire set of fire planning, analysis, and operational procedures leads to the determination of fire suppression priorities as life, property, and then natural resources. Likewise, social and behavioral factors tip fire suppression priorities toward structures. Options to deal with the threat to resources and the potential resource losses being created by growth of the wildland-urban interface range from maintaining the status quo to reordering suppression priorities.

"For example, on the Kirk Complex, State and local employees were paid based on a
“Portal to Portal” concept. That is, they are paid from the time they leave their official
station to the time they return. Their hourly rates are also more – about $42/hour for
State and local fire employees compared to about $24/hour for a Federal employee. A
typical shift length for a Federal employee was 14 hours; 24 hours for a nonfederal
employee. In terms of costs to the fire, this translates into about $1,006 per shift for the
State and local employee and $360 per shift for the Federal employee. Clearly, this
creates an issue of morale. Working side by side, one would expect equal pay for equal
work. This inequity must be corrected."

You'd be amazed to see the people who signed that document and the positions they now occupy in the federal government.

Rogue Rivers

I found it over on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center. Here is a link to the main page :

www.wildfirelessons.net

The document is located here:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Thoughts_and_Sayings.doc

peace,

sting

I'm sure this is blasphemous but you might want to check with your local BLM counterparts in NorCal. Nameless people tried to take the SCBAs off of CA BLM's rigs in 2004ish and the BLM (up the ranks in CA) fought for the right to give the guys on the ground the equipment they need. Part of the negotiations with Boise led to standardized statewide training including CDs and checklists and stuff on SCBAs. I don't have details but the Ops guys out there do. Do that interagency thing you do so well :-)

Use what you have to stay safe,
BLMgirl

Do yall do safety training? I'm a wildfire helicopter pilot turned water tender
operator and the forest circus tells me I have to have 8 hours safety training.
They also gave me your company name as a possible source for the training.

Thanks.
j candlish

Readers, any suggestions for j candlish? Ab.

www.flutrackers.com/forum/

www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Bird%20Flu

Bird flu (H5N1) may not seem to be a problem in the United States yet, but it is present in birds in Africa, the Middle East and Europe now and in humans in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India Asia and Southeast Asia.  The virus could easily go pandemic, efficiently infecting humans around the world if it changes genetically to acquire a few more "polymorphisms" (genetic variations). It will have that opportunity in Europe over the next few weeks (or months) to pick up the genetic changes.  When migrating birds return from Africa next week, recombination (sharing of genes) can occur in European pigs if they become co-infected with H5N1 while already carrying H1N1 (the 1918 pandemic strain).

Mellie

My friends, please prepare. Doesn't have to be elaborate, as Striker said on the Flu Watchout page. Consider it an insurance policy for your family, if nothing else:
beans,
rice,
oil (polyunsaturated oil, or lard -keeps without refrigeration, good for flavor),
spices,
canned tomatoes, sauce or puree (contain vitamin C),
daily multivitamin & vitamin C supplement
whatever else you like to eat

Homey

Good ideas but the problem is we don't have any
local fire dept. within 2 hours of our stations, and
training cost money so you can see where that argument
will go. The forest says every year that it is going
to set up the training then doesn't give it because of
the budget. I would train my crews if I actually got
trained myself but until then the equipment stays in
the boxes in my cache.

DM

Hopefully OA will have a report later.

Thanks to all who volunteered to come from Idaho, Reno, etc with a load of wood.

Ab.

Portal to portal pay is the first thing that comes to mind.

viejo

Any idea what length firewood Krs uses? I've been mulling over the thought of taking a load to him. My stuff is about 17-18" and I have some split from two seasons ago or some in rounds from last summer though I imagine he'd need it split. Its about 600 miles down there and I could take about 3/4 cord or so; if I stop in Reno and get lucky I could pay for the trip. If I'm not lucky, well, so it goes.

Tom

Check the post above. I think some wood is on the way. Hopefully OA will tell us if more is needed. Thanks, Ab.

When you have collar brass as one of the topics of your discussion, that's unbelievable. What I figured I would have heard from an FMO is, yes, we need to have the training and be ready for anything. Maybe all you want to do is wildland, but when we keep hearing about this bird flu and more terror attacks on the USA, who in the h*ll are they gonna call, FMO? You and me!

I am sorry if I sound harsh here, but its 2006 not 1958. Lassie is dead and so is Smokey; we need to remember them but, hey, we are in a war overseas and another one here at home. Do you really think that if all these possibilities everyone keeps talking about happen, that the municipal folks can handle it all? WRONG. They cant because they will be tapped in just under a few minutes.

Now, I hope that you are not taking this as an argument. I am just trying to help educate you on what is happening outside of your district. In region 5, well, all the other regions as well, we all have interface problems, right? Who is responsible for them -- US or the Municipal folks? I bet you say the red trucks, right? Well, in a court of law even if you say it's not in our mission, too bad. 'Cause your truck says FIRE on it, Mr FMO, you're guilty as charged and you've lost the lawsuit or, even worse, going to jail for misrepresentation as a fire dept. The public does not know the difference between Red, White, purple ,brown, Yellow and even GREEN fire engines. All they know is FIRE means help and they need it.

You said there's not a place to carry all the gear on the engine. I agree it's alot of stuff and there is not always room for everything, but EMS gear should be standard for all fire rigs. "What about your folks on the engine?" Suppose they get hurt. Are you going to wait for the volunteers? I did not think so!

Now that I am sure I have pissed a few people off, I will apologize for that. SORRY. I hope that you Albatross, you can understand that we are an AGENCY, not just individuals that hate California's ways of firefighting. Out here in Cali we do have the need to go outside of the mission and, well, maybe it's wrong, so why not help us out and ask for the training that we need to meet our needs out here. Don't just sit back watch us try to move forward while you are an anchor. That goes for all of you out there that think we are those dang R5 guys. Remember R5 started the ICS and we also started the Air tanker program so everything in R5 ain't that bad, LOL!

Thanks for your time and if you have to comment please feel free, which I know most will.
Just to say that I am all for us becoming an organized fire service. TRAINING and EDUCATION is key for all of us nation wide.

NORCAL CAPT

Tom

We have an outstanding fire academy program including wildland. How can
we add College of the Siskiyous to your training site?

Dennis DeRoss
Dean, Career & Technical Education
College of the Siskiyous

Welcome, Dennis. I added it to the Two Year College List. Ab.

What's that old fire saying about firefighting lessons... something like
"delivery of the lesson and the test in fire are often simultaneous?
I looked on the  quotes to live by page and didn't see the exact quote...
Original Ab, did you tell me that years ago?

Mellie

Maybe Uncle Sugar should be subsidizing the Abs & They Said for fulfilling a basic doctrinal need; you provide a medium for honest, open, and timely communications.

Honest and open communications seem to be in short supply these days. Just watch the news.

If you want to see how faulty organizational communications can negatively affect safety, check out the Columbia Accident Investigation Board Report. I found many striking similarities between the problems that NASA and the Forest Service have faced during the past few decades. I warn you, this report is large but it contains a great deal of wisdom. Here’s the link:
www.nasa.gov/columbia/home/CAIB_Vol1.html

I just finished reading an excellent book entitled “Apollo, Challenger, Columbia; The Decline of the Space Program: A Study in Organizational Communication” by Philip K Tompkins. Dr. Tompkins has worked closely with NASA since the 1960’s and analyzes the gradual decline of NASA’s ability to operate within acceptable safety margins. Dr. Tompkins makes an excellent case that organizations are constituted by communication, and that many of the problems faced by organizations like ours can be improved by promoting open and honest communications.

On the flip side, here are some examples of the opposite of open and honest communications:

NASA Becoming More Politicized, Critics Contend
www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/13856564.htm

And this lovely gem:

Federal Officials Throw Gasoline on OSU Forestry Fire
www.oregonlive.com/editorials

And so it goes.

Misery Whip

Misery Whip, thanks for the kind words. We know we fill a need. We work hard at doing our share, but so does each contributor that makes this community what it is. Thanks to all. Ab.

Attached is an interesting briefing paper with interpretive photos on the
WUI treatments which made it safe for firefighters to protect the structures,
and stopped the running crown fire. I would only add that the thinning by
the Arizona State Land Department and Bray Creek Ranch, LLC,
pursuant to a grant, also helped.

All is quiet now.

Mike J.

Thanks for resending that Mike.
Readers, here's the briefing paper on  fuel treatments that impacted fire behavior on the February Fire in AZ. There art some excellent instructive photos in this.

This is a 60K msword doc that will download if you click this link:  fuel treatment February Fire (60K doc file) Ab.

	Rep Honda, Michael [CA-15] -1/26/05       Rep Cunningham, (Duke) [CA-50] -1/26/05
	Rep Otter, C.L.(Butch) [ID-1] -1/26/05    Rep Simpson, Michael [ID-2] -1/26/05
	Rep Napolitano, Grace [CA-38] -1/26/05    Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] -1/26/05
	Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] -2/1/05            Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] -2/1/05
	Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] -2/8/05            Rep Weldon, Curt [PA-7] -2/8/05
	Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] -2/8/05          Rep Simmons, Rob [CT-2] -2/9/05
	Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] -3/1/05          Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] -3/1/05
	Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] -3/8/05           Rep Gallegly, Elton [CA-24] -4/6/05
	Rep Michaud, Michael [ME-2] -4/12/05      Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] -4/20/05
	Rep Tauscher, Ellen [CA-10] -4/20/05      Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] -4/21/05
	Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] -5/24/05      Rep Hayworth, J. D. [AZ-5] -5/24/05
	Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] -6/15/05      Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] -6/16/05
	Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] -6/16/05           Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] -6/16/05
	Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] -6/22/05            Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] -6/22/05
	Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] -7/13/05    Rep Gibbons, Jim [NV-2] -7/25/05
	Rep Schiff, Adam B. [CA-29] -11/15/05     Rep Lantos, Tom [CA-12] -2/14/06

I just think some of our leaders need to realize that we are wildland firefighters and thats it. We don't need to put our people at further risk, especially when they aren't properly trained.

Still in R5
DM

This past winter I've been working on a 3/4" hose roller prototype-
Which I think I finally have close to completion. I've identified a
few things I want to change for the production model, but they're all
aesthetic. What I need is some real world testing, since I only have
one piece of hose. Any of you guys up for it?

You can see it here: http://crew13.com/hoseroller.htm Once you've had
a look & want to test it, hit the 'send mail' link & I'll take the
first 10. Test it, fill out a small online form when you're done, and
you get to keep it with my thanks.

I'm pretty sure this version is fairly bomber, but I know the folks we
work with, so if it can be broken I'd like to find out now so I can
build a better one before the season hits.

Thanks to all-
KRS

"My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of 'where's the leadership' we have heard following the tragedies since 1994." You also said, "...we need to ensure we operate within our authority."

I agree that training and equipment are important. I also agree that authority is needed. We have all of these in my area.

Foundational Doctrine answers that question and others you ask.

Since the late 1980's, several of the Southern California forests began equipping and training to put out or prevent our traditional ignition sources from extending into the wildland (houses, vehicles, dumps, and traffic collisions). The corner stone of this decision was based upon "Operational Environment" and it was approved by Line Officers (The people who HAVE authority) far before Foundational Doctrine was ever heard of. Was it covered by the "mission"?... it depends how you interpret "Caring for the Land, Serving People"... aka Commanders Intent.

Many urbanized forests (aka WUI areas) do not have the same traditional ignition sources as some forests. In those forests, the traditional ignition sources may be lightning, campfires, or logging operations. People concentrate on mitigating those ignition sources. Likewise, some urbanized forests concentrate on mitigating their ignition sources. They are not undergoing a "mission shift" just concentrating on the safest, most effective, and efficient way to achieve the mission.

While it may not be happening yet in your area now, as National Forests get more urbanized the mission stays the same, but the way you accomplish the mission is decided by leaders. Leaders are adaptable and open to new ideas and change. If they recognize a hazard that is re-occurring (ie vehicle fire ignition sources) they train, equip, and counter the new hazard.

Student of Fire Science

also... we still do not enter burning structures, confined spaces, or go swimming in shark infested waters. If you have people responding to structure, vehicle, and dump fires etc. without proper training and equipment (and it is needed to accomplish the "mission" in your area), step up and be a leader.... Start talking to your line officer about making things safer... All it takes is a JHA to start the ball rolling.... . If it doesn't apply to your area... great... stop bagging on us that it does apply to.

On my district all we have is type 6 engines and tractor/plows. We have a hard time finding enough room for all the wildland equipment, I cant imagine carrying structural equipment/PPE and well as EMS gear. We train and work closely with our local fire depts. and the county 911 dispatchers. We all know our roles, where we overlap and our limitations. In every part of the country that I have worked, the public knows that when a green engine rolls up, we only do wildland and exterior structure protection. When we are dispatched either by the interagency dispatch or the county 911, we all know before we arrive--if structures even have the possibility of being threatened, the fire dept. is paged out as well. Unless our engines are on patrol in the right in the place the fire starts, the fire depts will usually be the first on scene in the interface. Thats their job, be close to the populated areas and protect the structures.

I dont mean to start an argument of Cali vs. the other 49 states, but California (mainly SoCal) folks need to understand that they work in a totally different environment. I am not arguing with the California FF's arguments, but I believe from most people that I have worked with, we dont always have the same concerns/arguments.

-Most of us outside of Cali dont want anything to do with structural/EMS. We compliment and support each other, but are trained and equipped differently.

-Many of us want nothing to do with brass on our collars, and would resist it if we had to wear it.

I am a district FMO with 20 years in the FS, and maybe its just the "old school" in me talking. I dont want to start another "they said" argument with our brother and sister firefighters from California, I would just like to stress that many of the arguments on this board are unique to California. I truly hope that this doesnt start an argument. I would like to hear from other non R5/ Cali. firefighters to see if I am way off base on this or not.

Ab, thanks for having place for honest, open discussion.

Albatross

I took the liberty of taking Krs's need for firewood to the Arboristsite.com.
There are many firefighters from that area that post regularly on that site. I
don't think they know about Theysaid. I hope this helps, it's about as much
as I can do here on the East Coast.

Onelick

Hi Onelick. Glad yer still lurking. Tell those folks about theysaid! Ab.

There is a very critical point to be made here on what our fire mission is, and what "leadership" is..... and thank Ab we've got a great forum to debate that point.

My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of "where's the leadership" we have heard following the tragedies since 1994.

Leaders/managers that permit their troops to engage in actions where they lack quals is accepting of and promoting the "make do" attitude. However much we want to get into the mix, take action, and not be on the sidelines or spectators...... we must constrain ourselves to our training, experience, and equipment.

Where else would we draw the line? Got a dozer sitting in a vacant lot without a qualified operator? Why not ask one of the crew to jump into the driver's seat? How about a helicopter when the pilot is off duty? Accident victim with signs of internal bleeding...... where's that spleen? These examples seem ridiculous, and they are. No responsible manager would assign a crew to such a task.

But where's the line? And what are the "trigger points"? Immediate threat to life? Risk of losing a million dollar home? How about a trailer? Or the saving of 100 acres of brush?

I would not be adverse to a change in policy that accepts an expanded role. But until we accept that as part of our mission, and until we provide the training and equipment to perform safely, we need to ensure we operate within our authority. We need our leaders to have the courage to lead. And sometimes that means telling folks to disengage, no matter how unpopular that decision may be.

Old Fire Guy

"27. Using principles requires judgment in application, while adherence to rules does not. In combination principles and rules guide our fundamental wildland fire suppression practices and behaviors, and are mutually understood at every level of command"

"Rules cover those things that senior leadership identifies as too important to leave to judgment. They neither require, nor do they benefit from interpretation or discretion."

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/genesis_and_evolution/presentations/2005_posters.ppt (powerpoint)

I can't find anywhere what the "rules" are. Are they the 10 standard fire orders, or are they all of the myriad of existing rules that have caused the situation we are currently in? Or is it somewhere between?

Any thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge out there?

Thanks, 6

From http://cfaonline.cfa.vic.gov.au/mycfa/Show?pageId=publicShowNews&audience=PUBLIC.

This is the 2nd CFA firefighter to be lost this season...

Loss of a CFA firefighter

17/02/2006

It is with deep regret that CFA announces a volunteer firefighter today died on active duty at Barnawartha, near Wodonga, in the state's north east.

A grassfire broke out about 1.30pm and was contained about an hour later.

A female volunteer, aged 41, died after being involved in a tragic vehicle accident on the fireground.

Her family is also involved in the brigade and has been notified.

CFA CEO, Neil Bibby, said:

"While there are no words that can adequately express our grief, our deepest condolences go out to the member's family, friends and fellow brigade personnel.

"There is nothing we can say to alleviate their pain, but we will be there for them. As always, the CFA family will stand behind its members and anyone affected by this devastating loss can be assured of our full support.

"I encourage any CFA member affected by the tragedy to speak to their fellow members and use available counseling services," Mr Bibby said.

The accident is being investigated by CFA, Workcover, police and the coroner.

Seems to me I've seen something like that in colorado papers some time or other.

Rufus

Ab.

If something you send does not make it to theysaid, please resend it with a question. (Unless it's photos; I'm behind on those.) Sometimes keywords or attachments get a message tossed into the spam filter either at the server level or at our local computer level. This can occur even if the message comes from a long-time sender. (I pulled Mollysboy out of the trash just yesterday.) Original Ab and I do not have everyone white-listed on all our computers. When I'm away, I post via laptop, for example. It's definitely not as "learned up" as the Abs big wlf.com computers.

I usually tell people when I'd rather not post their message and why. Of course, to tell you I need to be able to reply to your email. If you email and expect a reply if/when your message isn't posted, make sure that you're sending from a valid e-mail addy. I have to laugh when someone's post gets filtered, Ab get flamed, and the flamer has wasted a lot  of go-juice because he or she doesn't have a valid reply email addy. Not Ab's problem...

To the "most recent person" with the bogus email addy: if you'd like, feel free to resend your post with a valid addy and we can have a dialog, if necessary. It may not be necessary; whatever you sent may be perfectly fine for posting. I don't know, as Ab doesn't have a recent message from you; it likely got filtered or you didn't hit the send button.

To chat-ers and those that network through Ab behind the scenes, thanks for sharing information with those who are looking for it. The private messages with good info provide a service to others, too. Ab.

If Shari doesn't get enough people interested in supporting Krs, let me know. I will rent a U-Haul and haul firewood up there myself. I was on the fireline in Kentucky when Krs was injured... just a few miles away and listened to the whole incident.

I feel guilty about this accident because myself and the SOFR had been battling local fire management about the use of the 101st Airborne Division medics and airlift capability in the event of an injury just days before.... we got shut down on our suggestions and normal operating procedures out west..... It may or may not have made a difference but I would have known the best care available would have been provided..... at least ALS care.

Ken

Maybe see if there are any R-6 Apprentices around that use this website going
down to Sacramento For the Academy --that could pick up that wood in Grants
Pass and deliver it to Chico. Just a thought.

RO

R6 Readers, please ask around to new Academy folks. Ab.

At the Forest Service site, expand the top link Fire Suppression link for menus leading to all sorts of interesting reading. Ab.

Until such time that we do expand our role, and we support that with training and equipment, supervisors need to provide the leadership to ensure their folks follow current policy, and work safely. Until such time that structure quals, and vehicle quals are made additions to red cards, it is our duty to not engage them. Responsible leadership carries that imperative.

Old Fire Guy

Old Fire Guy, I say this with lots of respect for you. Regardless of the stated role of Fed wildland firefighters, wildland firefighters in the west already act as first responders, deal with hazardous materials and, on occasion, fight structure fires until the "official" fire department arrives, sometimes as much as an hour or more later. The interface is too extensive and the western distances are too great to do otherwise. Ab.

Is anybody out there making a North/South trek down Interstate 5 past Grants Pass and heading to or past Chico? Krs Evans needs a load of firewood for his monster stove and we’d like to get some to him. However, we won’t be able to get down that way for a few weeks yet. But, with all the training going on in all three Western states and rigs driving up and down I-5 pretty much non-stop we’re hoping to talk someone into stopping by with a truck so we could fill it with firewood for Krs. Any big hearted hot shots out there willing to help? Spring is coming but not soon enough for Krs’ firewood stash.

If you’re interested and able to help us coordinate on this, have Ab forward your email to me.

Thanks
Shari Downhill

Good idea, Shari. I'll put people in touch. Ab.

Click the logo at the top of the page to go to the FWFSA website. Ab.

The following text has been adapted for FireNet's international subscribers from the latest Australian Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre information update. The reported work is specific to Australia but should be of interest to fire managers worldwide.

The Australian Bushfire CRC funded research on historical fire weather data undertaken by Dr Chris Lucas at the Bureau of Meteorology and supervised by Dr Neville Nicholls was a critical input to the CSIRO work.

The CSIRO was contracted by the Australian Greenhouse Office, and the Tasmanian, New South Wales and Victorian state Governments to assess the potential changes in fire weather over southeast Australia under climate change scenarios.

The study, undertaken by Dr Kevin Hennessy at the Division of Marine and Atmospheric Research with Bushfire CRC researchers Dr Chris Lucas and Dr Neville Nicholls from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology uses projections of likely climate in 2020 and 2050 under a range of greenhouse gas and aerosol emissions drawn from two CSIRO climate models as the basis for the likely climate in those years.

The researchers conclude that at most sites the frequencies of very high or extreme fire weather days would increase by 4-25% by 2020 and 15-70% by 2050 if the model projections are correct. The changes are greatest in the inland, and relatively less along the coast and in Tasmania.

Is extreme fire weather is a highly unusual event, and the climate models may not necessarily simulate the statistical distribution of these extremes correctly, the study uses the historical distribution of fire weather as a base and modifies these distributions by the simulated climate changes to estimate the likely change in fire weather climatology. The historical distribution of observed fire weather was computed in the Bureau of Meteorology Research Centre as part of the Bushfire CRC research conducted there.

The study acknowledges a number of limitations, including the possibility of different results being obtained from different climate models, the quality of some of the data used in generating the historical fire danger time series, and that fuel availability, rainfall distribution, and possible circulation changes may also affect the fire weather regime in the future.

As part of the Bureau of Meteorology's cooperative research with the Bushfire CRC, a project is underway to assess the potential for seasonal prediction of fire weather in Australia. This is a long term project that is establishing high quality climate data sets of fire weather elements, and aims to understand the relationships between variability in these elements and the global circulation features that influence their variability as the first step to potential prediction. The results of this study will be applicable to future climate change studies.

Bushfire CRC chief executive officer Kevin O'Loughlin said the research was a welcome addition to the debate on the potential impact of climate change and would help refine ongoing related research within the Bushfire CRC.

"The cooperative work on understanding the historical data being undertaken by the Bureau for the Bushfire CRC's fire agency partners is invaluable," Mr O'Loughlin said.

"Fire-fighting and land management agencies will now be able to better prepare for the long-term impact of climate change. If climate change means that bushfires could become an even more regular feature on the landscape then planning must begin on how best to allocate resources to fire prevention, land management and fire fighting."

A copy of the Minister's press release can be found at:

www.deh.gov.au/minister/env/2006/mr14feb06.html

and the report can be downloaded from:

www.greenhouse.gov.au/impacts/publications/pubs/bushfire-report.pdf (pdf file)

Mollysboy

One dead in bushfire plane crash (16-02-2006)

A PILOT has been killed when his water-bomber aircraft crashed
while fighting a bushfire in south western NSW.

The full story is available at:
http://news.com.au

Here's the draft of the NIFC National Wildland Fire Outlook for February through
June '06.

JS

Thanks JS. Sorry for the rough formatting. I converted the fatty word doc to html. The photos were a problem. If anyone would like the original, let me know and I'll send it. Ab.

Structure Fires, Vehicle Fires, and Landfill Fires
Structure, vehicle, and dump fire suppression is not a functional responsibility of wildland fire suppression resources. These fires have the potential to emit high levels of toxic gases. Firefighters will not be dispatched to structure, vehicle, or dump fires unless there is a significant threat to lands and resources that are under agency protection, including by protection agreement. Firefighters will not take direct suppression action on structure, vehicle, or dump fires. This policy will be reflected in suppression response plans."

"Should firefighters encounter structure, vehicle, or dump fires during the performance of their normal wildland fire suppression duties, firefighting efforts will be limited to areas where the fire has spread onto agency protected lands. Structure protection will be limited to exterior efforts, and only when such actions can be accomplished safely and in accordance with established wildland fire operations standards."

It is time for land managers to understand that fire managers are managing fire of all kinds. Structure, vehicle, and dump fires are ignition sources. They are confined to a general location that is best suppressed from the confined location. If they expand into the wildlands, they increase the exposure to wildland firefighters. Trained wildland firefighters can safely extinguish a non-traditional ignition source from extending into the wildland. The most hazardous position is to be in an defensive fire posture and try to contain a fire that has escaped into the wildland areas.

When you make a policy that says, "Structure, vehicle, and dump fire suppression is not a functional responsibility of wildland fire suppression resources"..... "Should firefighters encounter structure, vehicle, or dump fires during the performance of their normal wildland fire suppression duties, firefighting efforts will be limited to areas where the fire has spread onto agency protected lands.".... "Firefighters will not take direct suppression action on structure, vehicle, or dump fires."

You folks making policy from glass offices need to get out some and see how much wildland is protected from wildland firefighters taking "direct action" on structural, vehicle, and dump fires. You also need to understand that firefighting is firefighting.... get over the fact that we (wildland firefighters) concentrate on wildland areas.... the science is fire science and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or biological scientist to understand it.... a normal person can.

If the current "policy" is in effect.... the urbanized forest areas will be operating directly against policy again...... Just like the 2003 siege that prompted the Foundational Doctrine...... When policies don't make sense.... wildland firefighters concentrate on safety. Educated line officers signed off on the procedures that local wildland firefighters are using. If you don't agree, attack the line officers who are authorizing the wildland firefighting actions...... not the wildland firefighters.
In any case, be prepared to be educated on the Fire Science of Wildland Fire if you question local line officer decisions or local fire manager decisions.

Bring it on.... Keep it simple... Stick to facts.... How many federal wildland firefighters have been injured or killed putting out vehicle fires, structural fires, or dump fires?..... How may wildland firefighters have been killed or injured from vehicle, structure, or dump fires that have escaped into the wildland?

Lobotomy

SUV starts seven fires
By: North County Times

RAMONA ---- Fire officials were trying Friday to find the owner of a sport-utility vehicle that allegedly started seven spot fires beside Highway 78, about five miles east of Ramona.

The fires were caused by a faulty catalytic converter on the SUV, said Capt. Gary Eidsmoe, investigator for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

Eidsmoe saw the small string of fires about 6:15 p.m. as he happened to drive down the highway. Someone else had spotted them, too.

"A witness physically pulled him (SUV driver) over and told him his vehicle was starting fires," Eidsmoe said. "He drove off."

The captain said the witness got a license plate number. The owner will be tracked down and told that if the vehicle starts any more fires he will be liable for any costs, Eidsmoe said.

(Eidsmoe is MVU Prevention 3321, I believe)

RJM

                                        ---------------------------------|
      Sports Drinks                    |                                 |
                                        ---------------------------------|
  Guidelines—Consult the               |                                 |
  nutrition information                |                                 |
  label found on the                   |                                 |
  product’s package. The               |                                 |
  information covers the               |                                 |
  constituents in the                  |                                 |
  mixed or liquid state                |                                 |
  and is presented per                 |                                 |
  liter of fluid (1 L =                |                                 |
  1.0567 qt). Because                  |                                 |
  manufacturers list                   |                                 |
  products for 8, 12, or               |                                 |
  16 oz servings, it may               |                                 |
  be necessary to                      |                                 |
  convert ounces to                    |                                 |
  liters:                              |                                 |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
       Multiply by      |              | 4.2 to convert an 8-oz serving  |
                        |              | to liters.                      |
                        |              | 2.8 to convert a 12-oz serving  |
                        |              | to liters.                      |
                        |              | 2.1 to convert a 16-oz serving  |
                        |              | to liters.                      |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  For 21 g of                          |                                 |
  carbohydrate in a                    |                                 |
  12-oz serving,                       |                                 |
  multiply 21 g by 2.8                 |                                 |
  to get grams per liter               |                                 |
  (21 x 2.8 = 58.8 g/L).               |                                 |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Serving size          |              | 1 L                             |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Calories per serving  |              | 180 to 320 kcal/L               |
 -----------------------+--------------+---------------------------------|
| Carbohydrate          | Total        | 45 to 80 g/L (4.5 to 8 percent) |
|-----------------------+--------------+---------------------------------|
| Carbohydrate          | Type         | glucose, sucrose, maltose,      |
|                       |              | maltodextrin, or fructose (try  |
|                       |              | to avoid products where fructose|
|                       |              | or high fructose corn syrup is  |
|                       |              | the first carbohydrate in the   |
|                       |              | list of ingredients)            |
|-----------------------+--------------+---------------------------------|
  Sodium                |              | 140 to 500 mg/L                 |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Potassium             |              | 80 to 308 mg/L                  |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  The following                        |                                 |
  ingredients are not                  |                                 |
  required, either                     |                                 |
  because the ingredient               |                                 |
  is provided in meals                 |                                 |
  or there is no                       |                                 |
  substantial proof that               |                                 |
  these ingredients                    |                                 |
  contribute to                        |                                 |
  performance or immune                |                                 |
  function when they are               |                                 |
  provided as a                        |                                 |
  supplement. Ephedra,                 |                                 |
  guarana, or other                    |                                 |
  herbal products are                  |                                 |
  not acceptable.                      |                                 |
  Vitamins should not                  |                                 |
  exceed 100 percent of                |                                 |
  the recommended                      |                                 |
  dietary allowance.                   |                                 |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Protein               |              | 0 to 15 g/L                     |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Magnesium             |              | 0 to 56 mg/L                    |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Vitamin C             |              | 0 to 100 mg/L                   |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Vitamin E             |              | 0 to 160 IU/L (international    |
                        |              | units per liter)                |
                         --------------+---------------------------------|
  Sports drinks that                   |                                 |
  meet the                             |                                 |
  specifications                       |                                 |
  include:                             |                                 |
  Advocare Pos-3*                      |                                 |
  All Sport*                           |                                 |
  Cytomax                              |                                 |
  Comp 1 (Arizona Sports               |                                 |
  Drink)                               |                                 |
  Enervit G*                           |                                 |
  Extran Thirstquencher*               |                                 |
  G Push**                             |                                 |
  GU20                                 |                                 |
  Gatorade                             |                                 |
  Powerade*                            |                                 |
  Revenge Sport                        |                                 |
                                        ---------------------------------|
  *High fructose, **High               |                                 |
  sodium                               |                                 |
                                        ---------------------------------|
  A higher carbohydrate                |                                 |
  concentration (for                   |                                 |
  instance, 10 percent                 |                                 |
  or 100 g/L and 400                   |                                 |
  kcal/L) can be                       |                                 |
  tolerated after work,                |                                 |
  when the crew is                     |                                 |
  traveling or awaiting                |                                 |
  transport. The                       |                                 |
  addition of some                     |                                 |
  protein (a ratio of 1                |                                 |
  g of protein for 4 g                 |                                 |
  of carbohydrate)                     |                                 |
  within 2 h after work                |                                 |
  may reduce muscle                    |                                 |
  stress and accelerate                |                                 |
  replacement of muscle                |                                 |
  glycogen. Fruit drinks               |                                 |
  or colas provide                     |                                 |
  carbohydrate, and                    |                                 |
  solid food snacks can                |                                 |
  supply additional                    |                                 |
  carbohydrate, protein,               |                                 |
  and electrolytes. A                  |                                 |
  total of 300 to 500                  |                                 |
  kcal of carbohydrate                 |                                 |
  energy (liquid and                   |                                 |
  solid) is recommended                |                                 |
  within 2 h after work.               |                                 |
                                        ---------------------------------|

Rocky Mountain Member

I would just like to get people's opinions this topic.
I am a call-when-needed firefighter out here in the Northeast and we are getting ready for the yearly pack test. Part of this as you all know is having to fill out the Health Screening questionnaire. I was always told this is to hopefully figure out if some one is at risk of having a massive heart-attack during the middle of the test. A very good reason.

Well one of the questions on the Health Screen is do you ever take any prescribed or over the counter med. I checked this box because I take a daily med. Now this med. has NOTHING to do with my heart or anything even close, but it requires me to have a physical. Fine I figure the USFS will pay no problem. The only thing is that the physical they require the Doctor to do appears to me (and I'm not a MD) to do nothing to check your heart. Yes they listen to it and take your blood pressure but other than that nothing. More time is spent on hearing and vision.

If the goal is to save people from dying with a 45 lbs pack on their back this exam seem like a waste of time. Do others feel the same?

EasternFF

I'm fairly sure they'll train you, unless they said otherwise. As far as equipment, check here on the FAQ page and click the link to the list of suggestions: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/faq.htm#what5. Readers, has anything changed? Any new items to add or old ones to delete? Ab.

I don't know the details, but I think Gatoraide is not so good regarding
electrolytes for dehydration as first thought. My recollection is that it's not
as well constituted as it could be. Does anyone have more details?

NorCal Tom

“While recognizing the positive steps made in the proposed 2007 federal budget, I’d be remiss if I did not note my concerns that enough funding isn’t allocated to prevent and contain wildfires in Arizona and the Southwest. As Arizona is seeing its driest winters in history, the fires that engulfed the Payson area have ravaged over 3000 acres of National Forest. The budget proposal for the Forest Service cuts fire preparedness by $10 million and other fire operations by nearly 36 percent. Preventing and containing wildfires on National Forests is a federal responsibility, and I am not convinced that there is enough funding in this budget to reduce the wildfire risk to our communities and the surrounding landscapes.”

Here’s the link to the whole article:

www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_27263462.shtml

Thank you, Senator Kyl. Wildland firefighters truly appreciate the support of those elected officials who understand that diminished budgets directly impact our ability to safely and effectively suppress wildland fires.

Misery Whip

WHAT IS HYPONATREMIA?
This is a condition in which there is a very low concentration of sodium in your blood. It is also seen in conjunction with WEIGHT GAIN (not weight loss) and most often occurs during endurance exercise lasting more than 5 to 7 hours. (From: http://www.halcyon.com/gasman/water.htm) More specifically, hyponatremia develops as sodium and free water are lost and replaced by fluids, such as plain tap water, half-normal saline, or dextrose in water.. Basically, this condition occurs when a person takes in too much water and not enough salt.

WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS?
The answer to this question is the scary part and why this is such a medical emergency when it occurs.

Many of the symptoms are NEUROLOGICAL in origin. Level of alertness can range from agitation to a coma state. Variable degrees of cognitive impairment (eg, difficulty with short-term recall; loss of orientation to person, place, or time; frank confusion or depression). Other symptoms include seizure activity and irrational behavior. In patients with acute severe hyponatremia, signs of brainstem herniation, including coma; fixed, unilateral, dilated pupil; decorticate or decerebrate posturing; and respiratory arrest. Coma and seizures usually occur only with acute reduction of the serum sodium concentration to less than 120 mEq/L.

Peace.

KCP

Thanks, nice ones. I put them on the Fires 29 photo page. I have a lot of photo catching up to do. I'd best get to it soon. Ab.

Ab,

I would like to thank the Prineville Shots, Redmond Jumpers and everyone involved with the making of the Into the Firestorm series. I am a deployed reservist that is going to end up missing 2 fire seasons and that series has been some real entertainment for me. It reminds me why I want to get back to my ranger district and get back to work! The guys I am deployed with think I am nuts for working wildland fire, but can see a lot of the beauty of the job. I am sorry that the various crews received so much flak about the perceived safety violations. At least it sparked some good discussions.

I am also glad to see discussions about the Cramer fire have come up again. Thank you everyone (Miserywhip, NMairbear, Lobotomy, ETC) for continuing to think about it. That fire is very personal to me and the political repercussions of that fire are far-reaching. Safety of my crew is #1, but more rules and regulations just tend to confuse people. The KISS method should apply to safety.

I have been lurking quite a bit on this board, and it is also a lifeline to the business I so enjoy. You all be safe and have a good season!

Domaque.

P.S. Whenever I tell someone I work Wildland fires, I get the question "Are you a jumper?" I tell them that I am not, and that I am an Engine Slug, and they loose all interest. The dang Jumpers get all of the good press! :>)

Doing some research... Thx...

Strider

Ab.

However, I am completely serious when it comes to shedding light on things that threaten federal wildland firefighters. If people want to look at my recent posts as politically slanted, that’s their business. But I regard what has been going on for the past several years as above politics, and a serious threat to the Forest Service and wildland firefighter safety.

If the Democrats were in charge of the White House and both houses of Congress right now, and making the same kinds of radical changes the federal land management agencies have been forced to endure since 2001, I would be challenging their actions with the same degree of dismay I’ve displayed of late. I can’t explain it much plainer than that.

Beej,

Outstanding post, you’re a good writer and represent the dirtslinger perspective well. You need to post here more often.

Misery Whip

Rich, it's easy to misspeak when dealing with all the legalities. Maybe we need a substantial course in firefighter law in which we practice with all the legal terms and procedures so they roll right off our tongues. Thanks for writing in to clarify. Ab.

www.coulsongroup.com/media.htm

-oohello

Steven Burns from the Deschutes National Forest  (OR) is in Critical but stable condition. He sustained a broken leg, broken pelvis, head injury, and broken vertebrae while working on a fire in TX, that's all we know for now..... JAM

This news release came out: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
News Release
from the Texas Forest Service

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – DRAFT DRAFT

Date: February 10, 2006

Firefighter Injured on Montague County Wildfire

The Texas Forest Service reports that a wildland firefighter was injured yesterday evening while assisting on a wildland fire in Montague County. Steven Burns, 43, from Deschutes National Forest located in Bend, Oregon, is currently in critical but stable condition at John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth. He has been with the U.S. Forest Service since 1989.

The injury occurred while Burns was working on the Hildreth Pool Road Fire at 7:45 pm last night. Paul Hannemann, Incident Commander on the North Central Texas Initial Attack Incident, said “It saddens us when any of our firefighters are hurt. Wildland firefighting is a dangerous business and the safety of our personnel is our top priority.”

Texas Forest Service Director, James Hull, stated “Our hearts and prayers go out to Steve and his family.” He continued, “The Texas Forest Service and the citizens of Texas thank Steve and those individuals who have responded to one of the worst fire seasons we have had in over 50 years.”

Steve's condition has been designated as serious, fir which we're all grateful. We hope he gets well soon. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is working with the liaison from the Deschutes NF to cover costs to his family. Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers. Ab.

After the investigations are completed, they will be turned over to the U.S. Attorneys Office to see if negligence was involved. If negligence was involved, "they" will have to pay the suppression costs.

The way it was portrayed by the media was that the folks who lit the match were heading to the gallows. "They" is the question.....

> From a local perspective in fire management, I know my actions must be first reviewed by the OGC (Office of General Council)... OGC determines if my actions were within the scope of my duties.... OGC determines the facts of whether the Burn Boss is protected by the Federal Tort Claims Act or if they were negligent or grossly negligent in their duties.

After Cramer and 30 Mile, we know that "apparent" negligent or gross negligent actions are reviewed by non educated firefighters..... but the Scope must addressed if you are ever going to have someone be a burn boss or IC ever again.

If an action goes to the USAO.... there is a perception that a law has been broken.

Gizmo

1. Completed Application Form with all appropriate signatures.
2. Completed Experience.
3. Completed Training with attached copies of course completion certificates.
4. Completed Position Task Book or documentation of historical experience that demonstrates the knowledge, skills and abilities for the applied for position.
5. An original letter on Department letterhead and signed by the Fire Chief (or designee), describing the applicant’s specific background as it relates to the occupational experience requirement, must be included.

Applicants seeking 100/200 level certifications should submit applications to their Fire Chief.
Applicants seeking 300 level certification should submit applications to their OES Operational Area Coordinator.
Applicants seeking 400 level certification should submit applications to their OES Regional Coordinator.
Applicants seeking 500/600 level certifications should submit applications to the PACE V Committee through State Fire Training.

After August 2006, you will have to have the appropriate taskbooks signed off prior to performing a position on fire assignments, especially federal fire assignment in California. And of course as OES and California fire agencies become more involved in out of state assignments, it only makes sense to have this process in place.

As a fire service professional coming from Arizona and now working for CDF, the majority of my certifications did not apply to the California "system". Fortunately my red cards, taskbooks, and related documentation have served me well during the "peer review process". As a carded STEN/TFLD, MEDL, TNSP, and ICT3/DIV trainee, my quals have followed me into the CDF/OES ERD.

Further, I am currently working with my training folks in my CDF unit in adopting the "red card" system. We have several folks in our unit who have the potential in responding to out of state assignments or assist the feds with thier local volunteeer fire department, and it just makes sense that we offer our folks red cards to help them in their future endeavors.

Lets all remember, red cards are not a "federal" thing. Red cards is simply a document that proves that the individual is 1. properly trained for the position, 2. is physically "ready" for the position, and that they belong " to a reputable fire agency." As with everything out there, there are flaws.

Hope this clears up any questions that you have. Your FMO is wrong in saying that only fires fought by that agency counts. I wonder if that FMO has ever fought a fire on someone else's land. I'm sure if that person did, they counted it towards their fire experience (they would have to if they got paid to fight that fire!!)

AZ Trailblazer

Hi AZ Trailblazer, glad to see you're still lurking... and that you've still got MOC's back. Ab

Good comments. I think those reading theysaid have gotten better perspective on the Firestorm Series since the discussion first erupted here. You're right, a good leader must have the training and experience to lead in the right direction. Thanks, Beej, your list of real safety issues deserve to be highlighted with bullets.

REAL SAFETY ISSUES:

• employee morale as the job expectations change rapidly in the near future (401 series),
• the impending retirement and loss of experience coupled with the ensuing rapid advancement for some with questionable experience and judgment,
• funding and long-term job stability,
• recruitment and promotion practices, and
• the need for employee performance evaluations that mean something (and let’s all stop the practice of promotion to eliminate problem employees).

I just happened to bumble across one of the old conversations somewhere about a mixer truck for a water tender and wanted ya'll to know a few things about it.

First it’s a little inefficient ,as the truck only holds 1500-2000 gallons, still not bad though.

Second they are useless in steep terrain due to the fact that the water will run out of the back of the drum unless they are going backwards uphill, backwards is not out of the question though. As a former mixer driver myself, I am capable of going 80 mph about anywhere.

The truck has generally 350 hp and 450- 600 flbs of torque. Water is roughly 8 lbs per gallon on the high side so 2000 gallons weighs roughly 16000 lbs . Concrete weighs roughly 4000 lbs per yard and a big mixer is capable of carrying up to 12 yards. Weight is not an issue.

The concrete chips that may come out of the drum can be ugly so you inform the driver not to "dry" the drum just get most of it out. Also just a tip: set up your suction as far away as you can from where the water is inlet to let sand and any debris fall out, also tell the batch plant that you can only have washed out trucks and you shouldn’t get much for chunks.

Thanks

Im a 10 year red carded volly in western CO. Water can be a huge issue here! Everytime I flush I smile and think about cali!

RV

Sounds logical to me. Ab.

Jim Hart

I think I know who you are talking about. he is an intelligent man but I get so frustrated with his continued bashing of the fire service. He lives on the coast. No clue but, what he thinks. I usually respect his opinion but he does take crusades and fire service bashing is popular now (to him). He gets on it too often for me who only listens to him 30 to 40 minutes a day as I drive home. If we are talking the same man he does great for the Military and I respect that; however if you want, and Ab will share our addresses, let's organize a mail blitz to try and educate him.

He harps on "CDF telling the Sheriff not to use the 100 gallon bambi bucket" in smoke at sunset. The pilots are alive today. If they had tried, they may well not be. "Dem rules are written in blood". I talked with the CNF guys trying to deal with it, about 2030 Saturday, as it went west; they had too few resources and wind was coming up. They could have had every CDF and CNF engine and crew normally stationed in SD county and the outcome that first night would have not been too much different with the wind. Everyone wants to harp on what was lost; nobody mentions what was saved. By Sunday evening, I had imagined there would have been 20,000 structures destroyed. the troops that came in did a great job. Just too much wind driven fire and too many structures with no defendable space.

RJM

Thanks, OA.

Angel is contained at 35 acres. Another 10 acre fire - Camino - in MVU close to contained (80%). Good job. Be safe out there. Ab.

I'm not sure they say. It is an 8" boot for men's sizes, just not for small women's sizes. Ab.

Hey Misery Whip, 007 and all.

It's good to see that THEY SAID posters still have a sense of humor.

Try these on for size.

"Cut it back and burn it black." "Pave it and paint it green." "Earth
First we'll log the other planets later." "I may not be smart but I can
lift heavy objects."

"The tuna doesn't taste as good as it used to, since they took the dolphin
out." " We should have clear cut Mt. St. Helens."

"Tourism does not build roads or schools."

"Hillary, Hillary, Hillary, Hillary."

Sending a T2 crew to SW tomorrow.

Ya all have fun now and BSAFE.

Backburnfs

Cliff, probably your best bet is to come to chat in the evenings and ask questions. (Button is at the top of this page.) Many of the regulars from SoCal are fighting fire at the moment, but keep an eye on the chat room to see if anyone's there and drop in if there is. Ember is moderator. She can probably give you an idea of who might visit when. Ab.

I have worn white's since 1966 and always have had very good luck with
them. I have had my boots rebuilt more than once without a problem.

Then the last time I wanted a pair rebuilt they called and told me the same
thing they couldn't rebuild them I had to buy a new pair. They weren't that
bad, just the soles were in bad shape. I have sent in whites that were in
much worse shape and they rebuilt them.

I don't think I will be buying anymore whites.

Thanks

KB

Ab,

Some information I found to share.
I believe in So. Cal our Fire Season never ended and we are rolling right into 2006 with increasing fire activity.

Tx
CDF Jake

PROGNOSTIC DISCUSSION FOR LONG-LEAD SEASONAL OUTLOOKS
NWS CLIMATE PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
830 AM EST THU JAN 19 2006

Summary of the outlook for non-technical users

The main factors which usually influence seasonal climate include

1. EL NINO AND LA NINA - which together make up ElNino/southern
   oscillation or ENSO -
2. TRENDS - the difference between the most recent 10 or 15 tear mean of
   temperature or precipitation for a given location and time of year and the
   30-year climatology period (currently 1971-2000) -
3. TROPICAL 30-60-DAY OSCILLATION- which may affect climate
   variability within a season -
4. THE NORTH ATLANTIC OSCILLATION - or NAO - and
5. PERSISTENTLY DRY or WET SOILS in the summer and SNOW and
   ICE COVER ANOMALIES in the winter.

WEAK LA NINA CONDITIONS HAVE DEVELOPED DURING THE PAST FEW MONTHS... AS SSTS IN
THE CENTRAL EQUATORIAL PACIFIC HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY NEGATIVE. HOWEVER
SINCE THIS IS A WEAK LATE DEVELOPING EPISODE... IT IS NOT CLEAR IF TYPICAL LA
NINA IMPACTS WILL BE OBSERVED OVER NORTH AMERICA.

THE TEMPERATURE OUTLOOK FOR FEBRUARY-MARCH-APRIL (FMA) 2006 CALLS FOR
WARMER-THAN-NORMAL CONDITIONS IN THE MID-ATLANTIC AND IN THE SOUTHWEST AND
SOUTH-CENTRAL U.S. FROM CALIFORNIA THROUGH TEXAS. TEMPERATURES ARE EXPECTED TO
BE NEAR-AVERAGE FROM CENTRAL MONTANA WESTWARD THROUGH WASHINGTON AND NORTHERN
OREGON. ELSEWHERE THERE ARE EQUAL CHANCES OF WARMER-THAN... COOLER-THAN OR
NEAR-NORMAL TEMPERATURES DURING FMA. ABOVE NORMAL TEMPERATURES ARE ANTICIPATED
IN HAWAII.

THE PRECIPITATION OUTLOOK FOR FMA CALLS FOR DRIER THAN NORMAL CONDITIONS IN THE
EXTREME SOUTHEAST AND ALSO IN THE SOUTHWEST AND CENTRAL PLAINS. THIS IS A
CONSISTENT RESPONSE TO WEAK LA NINA CONDITIONS AND IS PRESENT TO SOME DEGREE
AMONG MOST SEASONAL FORECAST TOOLS... PARTICULARLY THE DYNAMICAL MODELS.
ELSEWHERE THERE ARE EQUAL CHANCES OF PRECIPITATION BEING WETTER-THAN...
DRIER-THAN... OR NEAR-MEDIAN DURING FMA. ABOVE-MEDIAN PRECIPITATION IS
ANTICIPATED OVER HAWAII.

BASIS AND SUMMARY OF THE CURRENT LONG-LEAD OUTLOOK
NOTE: FOR GRAPHICAL DISPLAYS OF THE FORECAST TOOLS DISCUSSED BELOW SEE:
www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/90day/tools/briefing/

You can look through some of the images online. Beautiful isolation of form, my opinion. More than just Kansas, also Louisiana. Ab.

Ab.

Weather threatens as crews battle Calif. wildfires

Thanks Kel. Ab.

Strong Northeast winds flowing off the Mogollon Rim in Arizona last night caused the fire to run and spot all night long. Low fuel moisture is causing fuels to burn fast and hot. Spots to a half mile. Regarding my little ranch "It rained spot fires all over us all night" and "We could not have saved the structures if we hadn't burned last November." The fire spotted through my place and ran south on the east and west sides around my place and ran West toward Webber Creek (Camp Geronimo and Geronimo Estates) where they are now doing structure prep work.

A Type II Team has been ordered (Philbin's Team I think). Tankers ordered from Missoula and Arkansas. Lost our waterline to the spring. Concern remains the fire may double back on the south and run back up canyon to my place. These winds are not unusual, so it's going to be a difficult fire season in Arizona.

Mike J.

Be Safe. Ab.

So, I just want to say really think about what kind of boots you are
buying. Can you afford to replace a set of Whites at the price of $390.00
every couple of years since their rebuild program isn't that good and are
the oils that Whites sell and recommend for their boots, the best for them
or just a product that will help them make more money.

fsfireman381

i had the exact same reaction to that article. I e-mailed it widely as an
example (unfortunately) of how the real world works . . . .

grl4ster

California wildfire believed started from escaped controlled burn

Bummer...

Inciweb (accessible via our news page) says "human" cause. As I understand it, the burn was done last Thursday when there was no forecast of Santa Ana winds. The fire is thought to have been caused when holdover embers in a root system rekindled. There is a regional team investigating what was done (or not done) on the ground and what, if anything, could be done differently next time.

Ok just got some more info in and will post it above. Ab.

JR

BE

And if those homes had been in my area of Washington a lot of them would have burned for sure. We do not have those kinds of resources to fight homes that do not have a defendable space around them. Those home owners are putting Fire Fighters lives in danger and need a wake up call. It is criminal to live that way in my mind and then ask people to defend my stupidity way of living in a area ripe to burn out of control.

Region 6

The February Fire along the Mogollon Rim (AZ) is an escaped camp fire, still above the Highline Trail. East side is against the prior Packrat Fire at North Sycamore Creek. West side is at the 1990 Bray Fire. They are using my place for helicopter dips, etc. The fuel break which we burned in November should protect our structures unless the fire goes way south where the fuel break was not fully burned yet.

Kehl Fire, Bray Fire, December Fire, Packrat Fire, Webber Fire, and now February! I would go up to the Ranch but have to teach Fire Law Thursday in Tucson. They know where the keys are to get out of the cold . . .

Mike J<snip>.

The Investigation Team endeavored to provide meaning and context to this incident in the hope that our efforts will create a greater sense of urgency and commitment to safety. The Forest Service and all organizations involved in wildland fire suppression, and especially each individual, need to rededicate themselves to the fundamental principle that a choice for safety is the right choice -- every time.

Rebecca Welch had little experience to draw on as she watched the approaching fire. Her only assets at this time were her judgment, her training, and the fire shelter itself. But at a critical moment she decided to move to the road. There she positioned herself along the roadside, and moments later deployed her fire shelter, even sharing the precious space inside with two civilians, saving their lives as well. The simple choices she made had profound impacts on the lives of three people.

Safety is an uncompromising master. Most people compromise safety routinely in their daily activities, usually with no consequences. But neglect of safety eventually leads to "near misses," and near" misses lead to accidents, some with tragic consequences.

Fire suppression can be a dangerous business, and it has a history of tragic deaths. Safety and fire suppression need not be mutually exclusive, and safety must come first. We need to drive this message home with every agency, every crew, every manager, and every wildland firefighter involved in fire management and suppression.

I don't know which half of what I said you don't agree with. I agree with all of your post.
If you want to talk more, send me an email and Ab will forward it on.

Mellie

MOC and OFG, you two have been posting here for years. Rather amazing to think how long this community has been sharing info. Ab.

Thanks Ron, we like updates here, but here's the best idea for breaking fire information. Go to the Fire News page (permanent button in the top menu of this page). If you haven't done so already, sign up for the Hot List Forum via that page. Firefighters are posting updates there and someone put up a link at the crack'o'dawn today to the Mt. Wilson cam. We've been watching the changing fire column all day. On the Fire News page there are also links to Inciweb, WildCad for tracking new incidents and resources in real time, the CHP Site including fire with road closures and evacuations, Fire News via the internet media including video clips, GACC news, and Fire Maps of various sorts. It's a rich resource. Thanks to Original Ab for gathering it all together and creating the "One Stop Fire News Page" page last year.

Be Safe. Ab.

- Batchmaster

Got a link or phone number so the person asking -- Deb -- can clarify this? If Captain Evil is is incorrect, I can remove their post. I don't know CDF pay arrangements or who to call to find out. Ab.

Experts Predict Devastating Ariz. Wildfire Season
www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2006/02/03/65031.htm

New fire is taking off on the Cleveland NF, near Corona/Orange; 100 acres.
From 60 mi away looks like a summertime fire not like it's Feb. -- column is
building. It's dry, rainfall is 25% of normal. Engines from neighboring forests
are en route. I'll keep you posted as I'm able. Winds expected tomorrow.

SoCal Fed

Thanks for that heads up. Details with location and web cam link are posted on the Hot List Forum. Be safe. Ab.

"18.22 – Specific Requirement. For fire-related activities, wear all leather, lace up,
8-inch minimum (204 mm) boots, with nonskid or lug soles."

In looking at the La Sportiva's that people seem to be buying for firefighting (La Sportiva Glacier Mountaineering Boot), they seem to be a good boot. Just not the kind that meets my needs or the safety standard as found in the Health and Safety Code Handbook.

My first season, I bought a pair of Red Wings. I had been a Paid Call Firefighter with CDF and they had worked pretty well for me in the past. The problem was they fell apart on my second fire of the season. Luckily, my Superintendent had an extra pair of 8" Whites in his truck and gave them to me. I still have that pair of Whites and they are rebuilt every few years along with my other pairs. They are pretty darn good boots since they have lasted for nearly 22 years. My second season, I began ordering Whites with 12" uppers after burning myself in a stump hole in Montana. I have an assortment of Whites boots from 8" to 12" that I wear depending upon the circumstances.

There are also other great boots available. Nicks, Drews, Hawthorn, and others are all good boots to wear depending upon how well they meet your needs and the needs for safety. La Sportiva boots may also be a good boot for firefighting. I stuck with Whites because they met my needs and I was familiar with their performance.

So, what is my point?

New firefighters: Ask your new supervisor what type/style/size of boot you should buy for your first season. Shop around.

Returning firefighters: Use your knoggin to decide what boot is best for you and your wildland firefighting mission.

Supervisors: Impart your knowledge about "boots".

Fire and land managers: Rely upon your firefighters, supervisors, and fire managers to decide what "boot" is best. Continually re-evaluate safety and see if previous mission and safety standards are relevant to the conditions and circumstances, and correct things that could get people killed or severely injured. Disregard the trivial things such as gloves or sleeves rolled up, they don't kill people. Concentrate on the real basics.

Lobotomy

P.S. - I could wear flip-flops and shorts for most of the fires I manage. Biggest safety hazard I have is stubbing a toe on the accelerator pedal and getting a sunburn on my legs if I wear shorts. I still wear my 8-12 inch Whites and my nomex pants depending upon the circumstances, but am open to hearing if a new style of boot might be appropriate for others or myself.

P.S.S. - From the Health and Safety Code, "Sentences in bold italic type indicate that a fatality resulted because of a failure to comply with a standard operating procedure or practice." Concentrate on those safety items first and validate the statements of operating procedures and practice that may or may not make firefighters safer.

I recently viewed episode two. I thought it was excellent. I'm an
ex-ground pounder myself, now tied to a computer. The series
showcases what wildland firefighters do. Most people don't have
a clue about what happens out there on the line or what a line is.

I saw safety briefings and safety zones being flagged. There were
discussions about tactics not to mention the finer points of cooking
Spam. The series shows wildland firefighters kicking some serious
butt. I did see some gloves off and rolled up sleeves. There was a
lot of experience out there and they know what they are doing. The
series depicts wildland firefighters and their respective agencies in
a positive light. Sorry for being so proactive. I would recommend
writing your regional FMO if the gloves off and rolled up sleeves
are keeping you up at night.

Sleepless in Boise

Thanks for the heads up. I might record it so it's all on one tape. Ab.

So does the 'other duties as assigned' part of our job description mean the gov't can put us into any situation they please with a little obligatory 'training'? I'm a little leery of giving them carte blanche to use WLFF's for any task they please under the banner of 'All Risk' - at least in my corner of the Region 4 world, we are neither trained nor funded to be an 'all risk' outfit.

Many FF's jump at the chance to help out in a crisis, but I don't think that means every firefighter is obligated to face the risks of a situation outside of our primary purpose, suppressing wildfires.

Kibby

Ive always liked your take on things... But this time I have to half disagree with you on the bird flue issue and F.S. fire fighters responding. On my forest we have a choice to turning down off forest assignments. My management backs our play when someone breaks the rules or we think its just to sketchy. Everyone has the right to refuse an assignment on the line, its in the IRPG. Fire fighters have a right to have there safety concerns addressed and mitigated before engaging. The "can do attitude" is gone, we are in a new generation that teaches us to think before acting.

Doctors and Cops take a legal oath of office, I'm sure it which binds them to perform. A first responder has the option not to engage if it's not an on the job response. Furthermore any medical responder probable would tell you the "what for" if they did not have the proper PPE.

I seem to remember a part in the job description about protecting "life, property and resources". From that statement we first protect and ensure the safety of the firefighter before all else! Be it medical, haz mat, fire response, or even project work

Its a dangerous job. We have these rule to protect us when respond to anything. Our rules were paid for in blood.

When we respond to those rare events like shuttle recovery or hurricane relief we still mitigate the hazards before taking action. That is were the rub comes in. Bird flue is scary stuff. The safety concerns would have to be addressed and mitigated, training and PPE would have to be provided. Then that might make the employee feel a little safer in attempting this type of work. We work an all risk job when we have the confidence to safely engage.

Id take the training, Id purchase the PPE for my forest, and....... yes I probably would respond.

Fireslug

An employer has a legal duty to provide a safe workplace - enforceable for example by OSHA. Breach of a legal duty owed to another creates a cause of action enforceable in court. Strangers with no relationship have no legal duty to rescue each other, but a good samaritan, once the rescue is initiated, creates a legal duty on herself to complete the attempt with due care, the theory being that others including the person at risk are now relying on the good samaritan, which affects their own reactions or lack thereof. Laws have been adopted to immunize the good samaritan from a negligence claim, absent willful misconduct, but the legal duty is created. I understand my own moral duty to undertake the rescue of a stranger but can't speak for anyone else.

Firefighters will enjoy Professor Thackaberry's paper from the last IAWF Safety Summit: www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Thackaberry.pdf (pdf file) explaining the evolution from "virtue ethic" to "duty ethic" in the fire service. I look forward to some shift back to virtue based ethic and away from duty based ethic with Doctrinal Change.

This is from the Professor's Abstract:

"Using ethical theory as a lens for analysis, the paper shows how the original Fire Orders attempted to codify an individual “virtue ethic” for firefighter safety traditionally managed through narrative write-ups. However, their introduction simultaneously ushered in an individual “duty ethic” that would come to eclipse the virtue ethic over time. The findings from the South Canyon fire accident investigation reflect an organization at odds with whether it manages safety as a virtue or safety as a duty."

Old Sawyer

Dear Kevin:

I'm sure Vicki appreciates your comments but I would have to assume (Vicki, correct me if I'm wrong) that she would be the first to tell you to "call & join the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation does wonderful things for so many. However it is the FWFSA's primary goal and objective to improve pay, benefits and working conditions for our Nation's federal wildland firefighters through the legislative/political process.

Each issue you address is on our "political" plate. We rely on our members who span the entire spectrum of rank and responsibility in wildland firefighting, to inform us as to what is going on in any given region, forest, etc.

Since the FWFSA has earned and established its credibility in DC, we are in a position to address your particular concerns with the proper elected officials. All the land management agencies know the FWFSA is keenly aware that what congress appropriates for preparedness & fire, doesn't always get to where it should. They also know that, armed with accurate data about such issues, we will not hesitate to address the matter with the appropriate folks in DC.

However we need voices such as yours to be even more effective. It takes a great deal of time, effort & money to educate congress on your issues and secure their understanding and effective support for changing the status quo.

Whether you're Forest Service, Park Service, BLM, BIA or Fish & Wildlife, we help you ensure your voice is heard to effect positive change.

Strand up and let your voice be heard. Visit our web site at www.fwfsa.org or call me personally anytime at 208-775-4577. I look forward to hearing from you.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

I understand Vicki is out at some mtg hanging with some hotshots. She should be back to check her computer late today. Ab.

Those that want the flyer, email and Ab will send it.

Remember that "Every firefighter is entitled to a safe assignment." is our standard. In firefighting safety is a platform supported by

1. Training
2. Experience
3. Physical Fitness and
4. PPE.

Remove any of those supports and the platform becomes unstable, and the assignment unsafe.

Just as in fire, you have the right, and the obligation to turn down an unsafe assignment. Do not accept those assignments for which you lack the training, experience, fitness, or PPE. Accepting such an assignment can only endanger yourself and others.

Old Fire Guy

Better look close at your job description. I'll bet it says 'other duties as assigned' or some facsimile. Besides if you're a federal firefighter you're probably just a forestry technician and this is an All Risk Management world and you will go choke chickens if that is your assignment. Anybody out there go to San Diego County during the Newcastles Disease outbreak a few years ago? We do go and will go to all and any assignment as requested. Pick a job; shuttle recovery, hurricane relief, earthquakes, floods, etc. And they did train us to choke chickens down south.

DR

7107

7107 and other posters, please demonstrate those good leadership skills and keep discussion to issues. Attacking groups that are also members of the wildland firefighting community does not lead to dialog that informs us. Ab.

Beer in fire camp and or on assignments at all was a regular part of the good ol' forest service, even at the stations after hours for a few cold ones before the night off, but times have changed probably for the better.
And if anybody is waiting for 390 or TFL class to learn and understand rate of spread then they are waiting way too long. You should know and understand ROS way before that. Right after you learn to 'Base all action on current and expected fire behavior' would be a good time. Look into FLAME or appendix B if any of you need help.

Take Care,
AnotherDave

Ab.

My family is first now, so I will try not to expose them to any more dangers than I have to. If it happens, I don’t see where Wildland Fire Fighters are going to be able to do that much. There are other groups set up for this and if they are not, they need to be! Wildland Fire Fighters are not pawns to be used for anything that comes along they did not plan for. We are not trained for this type of work and should not be doing it in my opinion.

Region 6

OA

You talked about duty, basically making the distinction between a moral duty and the duty associated with your contracted job, so I guess that would be more like a legal duty, wouldn't it? It made me think. The police in New Orleans that left their posts bailed out on their "legal duty"; some may have felt that their "moral duty" to their families took precedence. Looking at their situation from a purely legal perspective, they should have resigned their position early on, or they should have not signed up in the first place. Otherwise it would feel a bit to me like deserting your post. But don't you also have a "contract" with your spouse, an obligation to protect and provide for your children?

A similar conflict might arise if a doctor who was responsible for patients just walked out, or a first responder performing CPR just quit without first getting someone to take over. In contrast is the retired doc who feels drawn to help in a crisis. Is moral duty more determined by feelings and legal duty determined by legal agreement only? Old Sawyer?

OK so what about someone on a fire team called to New York City or LA to handle DMORT during the bird flu pandemic? Say they had joined the team but don't know what they're getting into. They have no training in mitigating pandemic risk, they have limited PPE because the whole world is needing it at the same time, and they have children at home across the country who need their protection to survive?

Wooah, that's pretty heavy.... VFD Capt, do you have a family? Can you imagine yourself in that situation? What would you have to consider in making your decision? Misery Whip? Anyone? Any of those SJs out there had ethics classes on their way to getting their degrees? Hop right in. I don't think there's a right answer... just one you'd have to live with.

Mellie again

Lobotomy, any idea when we'll get to see the new Doctrine? The Sagebrush Faller's comments seem pertinent.

Good Firestorm show on the Discovery Channel last night. I look forward to them... Invite a different set of family and friends to each showing...

Tahoe Terry

I laughed til I cried! EMBO, since it seems Johnny Wannabe isn't going to reply, would you tell us what you mighta been looking for in those questions? I assume it's not a particular answer in each case. Here, I'll go first:

1. If you were dispatched to choke chickens as many of us were a few years ago, would you be willing to choke your own chicken back at the farm or ranch which ever it may be?

Yes, pluck and cook 'er too. Need to bleed 'er out, then need boiling water for the plucking. (Would require PPE if there's a chance they're infected, but then why would we be cooking?) Glad you didn't ask me about choking my cat!

2. Say you're sitting in a scab flat in the middle of nowhere, your pack is off and you're shaded up waiting for the helicopter to come get you because your pack is too heavy, what meal would you want at that very moment? If it’s soup what kind of soup?

Abercrombie's white bean chicken chili soup. And a dill pickle, please.

3. You come across a fellow firefighter high grading the last pork rib MRE. You proceed to get in an altercation, what hold or move would you use to subdue the poacher, for instance half nelson, full nelson or maybe the elusive father nelson?

Full lip lock??? I'm not so good at the nelsons anymore, not even the willie-nelson, which I've used in the most dire circumstances. I figure the lip lock would make 'im cry uncle fastest just to get me off 'im!! Heck, he'd probably be thrilled to give me the last pork rib MRE!

4. Some of us carry pictures, letters or some sort of memento or keepsake, like a rock that would fit in your pocket to remind us of things that are important to us. What would you carry that you could pass on or even touch people with?

My little pink sandy stone from my Storm King hike. It evokes so many images, of the trip up there that Christmas day, of the hike in the snow, the silence, the peace, of my visit with the Brinkleys years later, the sense of shared community and commitment to safety, the feeling that we can never forget those we've lost and the lessons learned, the good friends and companions, the job well done without fanfare, just well done as it should be...

5. If you had to be involved emotionally or physically with a club, what kind of club would it be?

This community at theysaid, with get-togethers whenever the opportunity arose. (Gizmo I'm with you!) As a kid my favorite was swim team. Although I didn't spend much time actually socializing, we swam hours and hours of laps a day and were bonded physically, often rhythmically (reach, pull, glide) -- each in our solitary but unified pursuit of training to swim our swim, to win our event, to go beyond what we thought we could do. Just to be it.

6. If you were in a band in the off season and you didn’t have a real instrument while fighting fires, what imaginary instrument would you play?

Play right now, without time to practice? glockenspiel or cymbals or spoons, depending on my mood --because those were some I loved playing as a youth and my body knows them. If I were going to be in a band in the off season now and I could, I'd play base like Dennis Hulbert. Yep, if I was required to choose a new imaginary instrument today, I might have to practice up on "air base". Those deep (imagined) notes resonate...

Your turn...

Mellie

Region 6

Changed it. Ab.

It's interesting to read the comments regarding the pay rate of CDF
seasonals. Their pay rate is higher than a lot of other agencies. The
overtime issue of 0000-0500 is even if you get toned out then canceled,
you still are paid the full 24hr. You take Forest Service or any other
Fed agency, once they come off the fire line, the clock stops at fire
camp or station. Many times you find crews elect to stay on line for 2
or more days without leaving the line in order to keep the hazard pay
etc. Once they are in camp, the fed crew are on "freebee" time, yet they
cannot leave either.

The 19 hour work week is still a good deal. Work 8-5pm, basically off at
dinner time. Maybe do some training with the volunteers (still on the
clock) or take the utility and head for an ice cream run (and still
paid).

RB

C.S.

Here here!!! Great points on using modern technology for boots! I hate traditional fire boots - the heel causes even more force to be placed on the ball and toes of the foot (not a good thing on any slope for those of use with arches). I personally think there is a great niche out there for any boot maker who can make a comfortable, safe, quality fire boot! I like La Sportivas too - but they could be even better!

Hycatal

They finally posted the 2006 Hot Topics on the wfstar web site www.nifc.gov/wfstar/index.htm.
Of course the video and other material won't be out until March. The way it's looking in AZ
we will be way into fire season by then.

Rimfire

Count me in for any such "conference", anywhere, any time.

Old Sawyer

SB

So be ready to spend the summer here !!

Tom (humboldt fire lookout, AZ )

I just took my Refresher Class from Tom Leuschen in Twisp, Washington. Risk
Management was one of the topics and taught quite well by him. I have a
different outlook on fires now and learned alot in the class! Wish all could get
their training from him, I know I will next year.

Region 6

• We loose on average 100 structure and wildland firefighters a year.
• 25% of those 100 deaths are deaths of wildland firefighters.
• There are many more structure firefighters across the United States than there are wildland firefighters.

Breaking this down per capita:

• We loose 1 in every 1,000 wildland firefighters per year.
• In contrast, structure firefighters loose 1 in every 20,000 firefighters per year.

In comparison with other federal employees in high-risk jobs:

• Next to astronauts, wildland firefighters suffer more losses per capita than any other federal employee.
• Wildland firefighters have more losses even than the military.

In my visit with Dale Bosworth I asked him -- because of work we do here at the Foundation -- not to cut back on wildland firefighters. Cuts would stretch firefighting lines too thin and leave remaining firefighters far too vulnerable. He assured me that reduction in firefighter forces is only a rumor and that there will be no wildland firefighter cutbacks.

I feel that Dale truly cares about all of us in the federal wildland fire community and that his reply to me comes from his heart -- and is not filtered through the politics in Washington. I feel he will do his very best to connect what is handed to him for fire from Congress, with our firefighter reality on the ground. We must keep our wildland firefighters safe. One way to do this is to insure that we maintain the same numbers of trained and experienced firefighters on the ground so we can accomplish the firefighting job that our citizens expect.

I want to say again how very much I appreciate Dale's connection with the reality of firefighters on the ground and reiterate that he's a man of integrity and honor in Washington. I feel he has a fire heart.

Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Search wlf.com on the name. Last I heard they meet requirements for men but not for some smaller women in that they weren't tall enough (not 8") in smaller sizes. Ab.

Tmo Spike

Sounds like you had a good career, Ab.

I was wondering if anyone from the CDF can give me some details on the pay of a seasonal firefighter1. I understand they work 4- 24 hour shifts... do you get overtime after 8 hours worked every day? Over 40 hours in a week? Working a 72 hour work week sounds grueling. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
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Deb