During the current fiscal year, 500 fire-fighting jobs in the aviation program, including the famed smoke-jumpers, will be examined for outplacement to interested contractors;

• In FY 2007, approximately half of the agency’s law enforcement agents and rangers (600 positions), the jobs of all of its geologists (500 jobs) and 1,100 biologists who prepare environmental studies on the impacts of timber sales, oil and gas leasing and other actions on national forest lands may be put out to bid;
• In FY 2008, the agency’s entire network of scientists and other researchers (2,000 slots) and 3,000 foresters and range conservation staff positions will be reviewed for outsourcing potential
• “The Forest Service appears to be having an internal fire sale, with the heart of our national forests put out for bid on eBay,” stated Jeff Ruch, PEER Executive Director. “We may soon see the Weyerhaeuser National Forest patrolled by rent-a-rangers, overseen by private consultants.”

In 2003, an outsourcing plan of similar scope, designed to meet Bush administration outsourcing quotas prior to the 2004 election, was halted by Congressional action. Then, as now, one of the major concerns was the added cost to the Forest Service to conduct the studies and stage the competitions. In its latest proposed budget, the Bush administration is cutting back Forest Service operating funds without providing any new funds to pay for this broad undertaking. In 2003, the Forest Service spent an estimated $360 million on studies but produced no identifiable savings.

Large scale outsourcing also has a dampening impact on sagging employee morale, already depressed by shrinking budgets. To make matters more contentious, the Forest Service is advancing its plan without consulting the unions representing affected employees.

“For decades, this agency has invoked the phrase ‘Forest Service family’ to connote a cohesive, close-knit organization, but this plan puts whole branches of the family on the auction block,” Ruch added, noting that effective contract management has not been one of the strong suits of the federal government. “This whole misguided effort is an example of mindless management by slogan lacking in any analysis as to how to make the Forest Service actually run better or more efficiently.”

###

Read the new Forest Service Outsourcing Plan (pdf file)

This is the Outsourcing Review process that all of the FS is undergoing, dictated by Congress. Readers can ask Tom Harbour about this at the Chief Officers Meeting in Reno tomorrow. Ab.

It had been quite warm here in norcal for a week, but heavy rain now.

Pyrolsis

We burned star thistle on our meadow in Trinity County over the weekend. This was following a full week of sun and some drying winds. Boy was it dry flashy fuel. It was awesome! Good we didn't have winds when it was burning.

Love that little drip torch. (What are the proportions of diesel to gas? My nephew mixed it up and we didn't blow up! Phew. It dripped just fine! What fun!)

I'll send in some photos when I get a chance.

Mellie

thanks dan

Ab.

I'm glad there are still some folks around that remember. My father was a mechanic at Sis-Q for a number of years. (Dave Greeson) Unfortunately dad passed on Aug. 2004. I remember spending a few long nights on tanker 49. Hope everybody from that place and those days are well.

Jeff Greeson

If R5 loses the so called 40 engines, how many are NOPS vs OSC? I believe we will hear alot at the meeting this week, so let's make sure we ask about this and remain FIRM!! One last thing to add to this, who knows where they are gonna make the cuts? If you do the math, 40 engines equals 280 positions cut or 200 depending on the daily staffing levels of the engines. Now if you add all these modules up --just in salaries for 5 day staffing figured as year round it's easier that way-- this is a savings of 89 million dollars. Now if they surplus the engines figuring they will get rid of the older stuff first, at say $25,000 each, it's 1 million... so $90 million saved with the cuts. For 90 million dollars saved I bet that this can become real folks, so we need to make a stand and fight! It's our jobs plain and simple and if you're a new hire with little time in well here is the door, is something you might hear very soon!!

I hope this kinda opens some eyes to this issue cause I know if they are able to save 90 million dollars going back to the pre MEL staffing it looks good on paper!!!!!

NORCAL CAPT

You yourself can ask Tom Harbour these questions on Tuesday at the R5 Chief Officers' Meeting. Ask away... Somebody's got to. Ab.

An answer for Brian in cleaning out his pack. Is he an engine or crew guy. If crew travel
a bit light but have: socks X 3, toothbrush, leatherman, washcloth, 4 liters water (In my
younger days 4 one liter or 1/5 liter bottles), 3 mre (make sure they are ones you like
and none that are old, they taste terrible after a while), 1 extra tshirt, handbook, at least
1 fuses, taskbook, redcard, and what ever else fits.

If engine travel heavy, remember the engine can carry a lot, but your daypack can be light.

Zimm

Bob,

Back in the 70's SIS-Q flying service flew out Santa Rosa,Ukiah, Paso
Robles fleet included DC-6s, F7Fs, PBY and S2Fs. In 1974 SIS-Q lost
two pilots and two F7F air tankers one accident occurred on take off
from Rohnerville and one near Hopland tail number E31.

Rhino

Here's a good idea for changing the ways we do investigations. I believe it's
similar to the peer review process for academic and scientific papers.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/mgmt/briefing_papers/peer_review_panels.pdf

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Rogue Rivers for your comments. Ditto on those.

Here are two additional items from the report that have potential effects on the wildland fire program.

"ESF-9 must include the United States Forest Service’s (USFS), DOI and EPA capabilities to perform search and rescue operations. USFS is given the role as primary agency under ESF-4: Firefighting and as supporting agency under ESF-9. DOI is a principal partner with USFS in carrying out ESF-4 functions. As firefighters make up a large percentage of FEMA Urban Search and Rescue teams, their expertise and capabilities should also contribute to search and rescue operations. Under SF-9, the mission statements of USFS and DOI should include the availability of firefighting personnel, not just equipment and supplies, for use in search and rescue operations. ESF-9 must include the capabilities of all participants in the National Search and Rescue Committee.

"In addition, USDA’s Forest Service deployed approximately 300-350 law enforcement officers to the affected area as members of ESF-4 Incident Management Teams. Eventually, over 3,500 Federal law enforcement officers were deployed to the region."

It seems to me and seemed so at the time that the Forest Service performed well and provided the first contingent of federal law enforcement officers, set up good camps, but was under utilized in the fire arena and the ESF function 4 responsibilities.

This is much like H-527 being turned around enroute to Louisiana, as fires burned.

Mellie

Thanks, OA.

See the link below.  fire-shelter.pdf  Thanks to the other folks who sent this in. Ab.

fire-shelters.pdf  (2,206K pdf file)

Pass it along.

TC

hi

was there a tanker company called siskue aviation, a friend of mine named
Norm Silver said he flew F7F;s for them in the 70's.

thanks

Bob Nance
(retired fireman/helicopter pilot)

Sign me "Bluesman"

Thanks for setting the record straight. Ab.

FYI --The Roseburg, Oregon school shooting victim is the son of
the late Vic Monti, of Lassen NF.

Student Critically Injured In Roseburg, Oregon School Shooting

DS

We'll keep him in our thoughts and prayers. Ab.

"All Federal departments and agencies should align their response structures to NIMS. In accordance with this alignment, the entire Federal response structure should be NIMS based, reporting through one unified command using the same terminology and basic organizational structure. Although ICS is a field command structure, developing an understanding of the ICS at all levels will eliminate confusion, standardize operations throughout the government, and limit unnecessary interference with field command. DHS should lead a review of all Federal department and agency response operations plans to guarantee conformance with NIMS and the NRP, from response teams to command post operations."

Appendix B - What Went Right

"About 3,000 members of the Forest Service also deployed to the region to support response efforts. Arriving in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, and Alabama, Forest Service personnel established support camps, provided aviation assistance, and transported desperately needed supplies to relief workers. The base camps they established were capable of supporting 1,000 emergency responders at each site. They bolstered the destroyed aircraft infrastructure in the region with their own fixed wing planes and helicopters. They also helped navigate the Federal procurement system and successfully obtained needed emergency response supplies. These activities allowed local and state emergency response personnel to focus on response rather than worrying about the supplies and other support they needed."

I would have to wonder how things would have gone better if they allowed more of the Incident Management Teams to manage incidents rather than just providing logistical support in many cases? The press articles today saying the response should be in the hands of the military needs to be really rethought.... they should be in the hands of incident managers.

Rogue Rivers

thank you so much!!!

DelRosa IHC reunion guy

Ab note from the paper: A memorial service will be held 2 p.m. Saturday, Feb. 25, at the Retz Funeral Home Chapel, Helena. A reception will follow at the West Valley Fire Hall on Forestvale Road. Memorials in Darrell’s name are suggested to the Darrell Wittke’s Children Education Fund, c/o the Elkhorn Federal Credit Union at Fort Harrison, MT 59636.

Todd, please give our condolences to his family if you have an opportunity to speak with them. Ab.

Thanx. That is basically the info I was looking for. I've read the same thing about them from others but not from someone on the line. I will probably find myself around the ICP since I am trained as an FBAN, RESL, SOF2 or DMOB Unit Leader. Those Corcorans may be well placed in an office/light duty setting. Thanx again. The search continues.

D F

DHS Website, Press Room

It's 228 pages. The guts of the report is 85 pages, but the recommendations are in the appendix, hmmmm... 17 sections of recommendations... I'm interested in what they think NIMs should be and do. Hopefully they don't recommend undoing any of NIMs. This is of concern because it will determine the next set of policy changes... if any.

Could be a weekend read, in the sun at the ranch, glass of lemonade, large straw hat, feet propped up, while the guys dig the trench... Yeah, right...

Mellie

Generally I just wore my regular work boots, 8" terra lites that are gortex and steel toed. I work in a multi-task workplace with firefighting generally taking up no more than 20% of my time. I decided to buy a 10" unlined boot to use solely for wildland firefighting. The terra's are a good boot but fire wrecks havoc on them and I have no back-up pair. Last weekend I strolled into the local army surplus and was surprised to see a brand new pair of Corcoran jump boots sitting on the shelf. I picked them up. I never seemed to have the time when out west to question the guys or gals on the unit crews which type of boot they preferred or how they maintained them. Thanx for responding.

Dawg Fude

I'm just assuming here but you must stand morning inspections in them Corcoran's because that's about the only thing they're good for. Ask any Paratrooper, who has more than 5 jumps, about Corcorans. I spent 5 years in Army Airborne units (236 jumps) and my Corcoran's stayed highly shined, but out of the way until the next Class "A" inspection. On the fireline you'd probably be better off with a pair of flip-flops.

Kamie

Old Sawyer.

Amazing but not surprising…

I just want to personally send my appreciation to all of you who jumped so quickly when you realized what was needed. Often that’s all it takes. There are so many people who want to help but really aren’t sure how. And, sadly, there are also many people who could really use help, but don’t know exactly how to ask. Hopefully, the “Wood For Krs” effort will send a message in a gentle way…. If you need something…or know someone who needs something, just let it be known. If you don’t feel comfortable posting the information or request in such a public venue as this, contact Vicky Minor or any of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation crew (208) 336-2996) . They are facilitators extraordinaire. Thanks to you too Abs, for your valuable role in this.

Now…for world peace…

Ciao,
Shari Downhill

Remember that OUR Wildland Firefighter Foundation needs 52 Club memberships.
It's a new year. This is our community's "security blanket". OUR Foundation has demonstrated this over and over; this is no BS. The Foundation steps up but only if we SIGN UP! Get your crew to sign up! Ab.

”If you over order on a fire and you stop it, you will hear about it for
the rest of the season, If you under order on a fire and you lose it,
you will hear about it for the rest of your career”!!

Firefly

I've bought a pair of Corcoran "jump" boots and am going through the
painful break-in. Do you or anyone you know use these boots for wildland
FF? I've read they are a great jump and parade boot but may be a tad
hard on the feet for heavy field use. Also, from most of the articles and
advice I've gotten, I've decided to treat them with a a leather conditioner
and Nikwax. I've been west fighting fires as a Div Sup and of course see
these hotshot crews working diligently on their boots (probably a better
chance getting a date with their girlfriends than borrowing their boots for
an evening).

Anywho, this is a rookie request so before the pros jump on a "boot"
question, I'll let you know I've researched the subject way too much but
have yet to get an opinion(s) from someone who has actually put their
boots to the black. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dawg Fude

Sting and Lobotomy, thanks. Mellie, good memory.

Ab did a search on "Fires give the test just ahead of the lesson" and look what I found from BLM Bob in 2000. He had more "truths" in categories -- We even made a page for them: Tactical Truths

• Fire Ops,
• Planning,
• Working with People,
• Taking Care of Yourself, and
• Important Things You Will Learn.

Hey BLM Bob, do you know where these came from? Clearly they've been around for a while... part of wildland firefighter culture.

Searched on this one, too: "Experience is knowledge you gain, right after you need it." Boo (Texas Forest Service) sent that in first time in 2000. That got added to Bob's list and posted later on the Scratch Lines page (in 2004). Good stuff. I'm adding BLM Bob's Tactical Truth link to the Links Page under Miscellaneous so we don't loose track of it again.

Ab.

My only suggestion on getting a kit is to write down every thing you think you will need and stick with the most necessary items. Gloves, burn kit, gauze etc. My jump kit weights in at around 65lbs and trying to run around with that slung over your shoulder is not easy.

One more vital thing is to get the training because it doesn't do you one bit of good if you have no idea what in the H*LL you are doing.

That may seem pretty strong for a few and I am not out to start a fight, but it is the truth. If you are out of your local area and you end up on a serious accident make sure you get with the local TTC and get the briefing done.

TTC is trained trauma counselor.

Cris

He's in Oregon. Ab.

Past vol. chief in NJ

Good enough. There are still willing helpers in the works, so don't hesitate to ask for next winter. Ab.

Could just be lack of knowledge/experience with firefighting?

I haven't been on in a while, so I may be a little late. I live in Chico, and would be more than happy to help Krs with warmth this winter or next. I can provide manpower only since I am car bound, I do have a saw though. ABs can pass on my e-mail to anyone, I will help in any way possible.

Pyrolysis

Thanks, I'll pass the message along. Ab.

I passed the info on. Thanks, Ab.

So much emphasis has was placed on pointing fingers and assigning blame for the fatality that focus on many other things that were learned from this incident have lost the attention that they deserve. These need to be brought to the forefront so that others might benefit and learn from this tragedy. At the time of the Cedar Fire, EMS equipment was not part of the regular equipment carried on Novato's Type 3 engines. Fortunately, the crew of engine 6132 had the foresight to pack EMS equipment and IV kits prior to heading down to Southern California.

Their decision to do so quite possibly prevented the Cedar burnover from being a double fatality. The availability of having this equipment allowed the other members of this crew to begin critical treatment for Captain McDonald prior to the arrival of other rescue workers. Novato further benefited by the fact that all members of their crew were paramedics giving an added edge in starting IV's and recognizing that there was a need for an ALS helicopter with a nurse to allow for rapid sequence intubation. This probably saved Captain McDonald's life.

Although it is not realistic to think that paramedics can be assigned to every wildland crew, it is probably to at least prudent to have basic EMS equipment and enough training to intervene in the event of a serious injury. While not having any background in firefighting, it is easy to imagine circumstances that would prevent medical support from reaching the scene of an accident in a timely manner.

Now that the dust is finally settling a bit with the Cedar Fire, I would hope that everyone could reexamine the other lessons from this incident including things such as medical gear, stainless steel brake lines and carbon monoxide monitors for wildland firefighters. Although nothing can change the events of that day, everyone can at least learn from what happened so that things are safer for those that follow on future wildland fires. Both the Novato and Niosh reports outline some recommendations that deserve serious attention to reduce risk as a result of what was learned from this incident.

Keep safe!
Bob Rucker

Novato Report (large pdf file)
Niosh Report

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation (Vicki) is in need of photos and/or video footage of the Forest Service Honor Guard as soon as possible. If anyone has some, please call Burk at the Foundation at (208) 336-2996 to make arrangements to get 'em to them. Vicki is out sick today. Send her some LOVE. We need her healthy and doing her good work.

Thanks,

Ab.

I believe the NPS got approval to train for INSIDE structure
firefighting because they 1. are generally isolated and outside of any
fire protection district boundaries, 2. have responsibility for many
buildings including administrative and motels/lodges/stores/restaurants
etc. inside the park boundaries. Think about Yellowstone or Glacier or
Crater Lake, what are the response times from local communities if there is
a fire or accident.

The Rangers are generally the ones who would respond to a structure
incident with appropriate training and equipment, because they are
responsible for public safety in the parks.

The Forest Service has always had the OK to attack structure fires from the
outside of the structure, and to assist other agencies in structure
firefighting when there is a threat to the wildland or under mutual aid
agreements. As far as I know many Forests have SCBA training and use them
when responding to vehicle fires and structure fires.

I don't know where the FS is not providing training to handle other than
wildland incidents. I received this type of training from day one on an
engine in 1976 and have trained my firefighters to safely work on these
incidents ever since. We worked with local city fire departments and cross
trained with them on, structure, vehicle, propane, hazmat incidents and
vehicle accident extrication so we could safely respond and help until
higher trained crews arrived. We help the city guys with wildland training
as well.

Of course the head shed geeks in D.C. and Boise don't support us being
classified as firefighters or being paid as such. Sorry to say that is an
issue that will remain with us until long after I am out of the business.

Regardless of that it is our best interest and our responsibility to train
our Foresters, Forestry Technicians, 401 Biologists and Range Technicians
to safely deal with these incidents within our agency guidelines and to
work with our friends in congress and the FWFSA to change the rules so we
can recognize federal firefighters for what they are, dedicated fire
service professionals.

Backburnfs

Hi,

I'm interested in some of the Biscuit Fire photos on your website for a story in
Audubon Magazine. Are there high-res (300 dpi at 8x10) images available?
Please let me know.

thanks,
Kim
Photo Editor
Audubon

Here are 4 papers written in 1991 (pdf file) about the growing interface responsibilities,
changing wildland firefighter roles and mutual aid.  I understand that one of the co-authors
is currently the Special Assistant to Chief Dale Bosworth.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FACTORS INFLUENCING WILDLAND/URBAN INTERFACE EMERGENCY RESPONSES
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams

Introduction. The wildland firefighters' Job is changing, due in large measure to problems associated with the wildland/urban interface. More development is occurring at the edge of forest boundaries, on tracts of private land within forest boundaries, and in metropolitan areas within easy drives of the forest. There are more residents, more tourists, and increased values at risk. Wildland firefighters are increasingly encountering structural fires and other non-wildland fire emergency assistance situations. Historically, it has been common practice for wildland firefighters in the USDA Forest Service to respond to reported structural fires, vehicle fires, vehicle accidents, and other situations where. emergency assistance is required. However, the frequency of these situations is increasing as interface pressures intensify. There are concerns that wildland fire fighting resources are being committed to structural protection at the expense of wildland resources. Moreover, managers, crews, and cooperators are concerned whether their wildland training and equipment adequately prepare them to deal with the increasing and varied emergency response situations they now face.

Questions have also been raised that perhaps it is the complex set of cooperative and mutual aid agreements with State and local fire and emergency response organizations that are placing personnel in non-wildland fire situations. Do the agreements have explicit provisions or create informal expectations that wildland organizations will move beyond their traditional wildland fire fighting role?

These concerns, highlighted by the serious interface fire events of recent years, led the Forest Service to undertake a. policy analysis examining these issues. The study examined agency policy and the actions Forests have taken, or anticipate will be taken, to respond, equip and train in the areas of structural fire, search and rescue, emergency medical assistance, and hazardous materials. <etc>

MUTUAL AID IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE: THE SOLUTION OR THE PROBLEM?
by Hanna J. Cortner
Abstract. In response to the wildland/urban fire interface, many cooperative activities involving both wildland and structural fire organizations have occurred. Drawing from a policy analysis study conducted by the USDA Forest Service, the paper discusses the role of mutual aid and cooperative activities in solving interface problems. Generally, most participants in cooperative agreements see more benefits than costs to agreements. Nevertheless, improvements can be made to remove inequities, reduce exposure to situations that pose risks, and ensure that mutual aid and other forms of cooperative arrangements do not create more interface problems than they solve.

THE CHANGING ROLE OF THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams
Abstract. Increasing human presence in wildland areas is changing the traditional role of the wildland firefighter. Wildland fire crews are being exposed to more non-wildland fire emergencies, including structural fire, search and rescue, medical assists, and hazardous materials incidents. This paper reports on a policy analysis done by one wildland agency, the USDA Forest Service, that gathered information from field-level. employees and agency cooperators about the scope and magnitude of these types of emergency responses. While no one wanted the Forest Service to become a full-fledged structural fire department or an all-risk emergency responder, several issues that need addressing were identified. They include: training and equipment requirements, accounting and compensation procedures, and cooperative agreements and activities with public safety organizations and the development community.

RESOURCES OR STRUCTURES: FIRE SUPPRESSION PRIORITIES IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE
by Hanna J. Cortner and Ted Lorensen
Abstract. The paper explores the issue of fire suppression priorities in the wildland-urban interface. Tradeoffs between natural resources and structures can occur in two instances: single fire incidents where the presence of structures may influence decisions about what strategies and tactics to use; and multiple fire incidents where resources are sent to the fires where structures are threatened. The entire set of fire planning, analysis, and operational procedures leads to the determination of fire suppression priorities as life, property, and then natural resources. Likewise, social and behavioral factors tip fire suppression priorities toward structures. Options to deal with the threat to resources and the potential resource losses being created by growth of the wildland-urban interface range from maintaining the status quo to reordering suppression priorities.

"For example, on the Kirk Complex, State and local employees were paid based on a
“Portal to Portal” concept. That is, they are paid from the time they leave their official
station to the time they return. Their hourly rates are also more – about $42/hour for
State and local fire employees compared to about $24/hour for a Federal employee. A
typical shift length for a Federal employee was 14 hours; 24 hours for a nonfederal
employee. In terms of costs to the fire, this translates into about $1,006 per shift for the
State and local employee and $360 per shift for the Federal employee. Clearly, this
creates an issue of morale. Working side by side, one would expect equal pay for equal
work. This inequity must be corrected."

You'd be amazed to see the people who signed that document and the positions they now occupy in the federal government.

Rogue Rivers

I found it over on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center. Here is a link to the main page :

www.wildfirelessons.net

The document is located here:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Thoughts_and_Sayings.doc

peace,

sting

I'm sure this is blasphemous but you might want to check with your local BLM counterparts in NorCal. Nameless people tried to take the SCBAs off of CA BLM's rigs in 2004ish and the BLM (up the ranks in CA) fought for the right to give the guys on the ground the equipment they need. Part of the negotiations with Boise led to standardized statewide training including CDs and checklists and stuff on SCBAs. I don't have details but the Ops guys out there do. Do that interagency thing you do so well :-)

Use what you have to stay safe,
BLMgirl

Do yall do safety training? I'm a wildfire helicopter pilot turned water tender
operator and the forest circus tells me I have to have 8 hours safety training.
They also gave me your company name as a possible source for the training.

Thanks.
j candlish

Readers, any suggestions for j candlish? Ab.

www.flutrackers.com/forum/

www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Bird%20Flu

Bird flu (H5N1) may not seem to be a problem in the United States yet, but it is present in birds in Africa, the Middle East and Europe now and in humans in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India Asia and Southeast Asia.  The virus could easily go pandemic, efficiently infecting humans around the world if it changes genetically to acquire a few more "polymorphisms" (genetic variations). It will have that opportunity in Europe over the next few weeks (or months) to pick up the genetic changes.  When migrating birds return from Africa next week, recombination (sharing of genes) can occur in European pigs if they become co-infected with H5N1 while already carrying H1N1 (the 1918 pandemic strain).

Mellie

My friends, please prepare. Doesn't have to be elaborate, as Striker said on the Flu Watchout page. Consider it an insurance policy for your family, if nothing else:
beans,
rice,
oil (polyunsaturated oil, or lard -keeps without refrigeration, good for flavor),
spices,
canned tomatoes, sauce or puree (contain vitamin C),
daily multivitamin & vitamin C supplement
whatever else you like to eat

Homey

Good ideas but the problem is we don't have any
local fire dept. within 2 hours of our stations, and
training cost money so you can see where that argument
will go. The forest says every year that it is going
to set up the training then doesn't give it because of
the budget. I would train my crews if I actually got
trained myself but until then the equipment stays in
the boxes in my cache.

DM

Hopefully OA will have a report later.

Thanks to all who volunteered to come from Idaho, Reno, etc with a load of wood.

Ab.

Portal to portal pay is the first thing that comes to mind.

viejo

Any idea what length firewood Krs uses? I've been mulling over the thought of taking a load to him. My stuff is about 17-18" and I have some split from two seasons ago or some in rounds from last summer though I imagine he'd need it split. Its about 600 miles down there and I could take about 3/4 cord or so; if I stop in Reno and get lucky I could pay for the trip. If I'm not lucky, well, so it goes.

Tom

Check the post above. I think some wood is on the way. Hopefully OA will tell us if more is needed. Thanks, Ab.

When you have collar brass as one of the topics of your discussion, that's unbelievable. What I figured I would have heard from an FMO is, yes, we need to have the training and be ready for anything. Maybe all you want to do is wildland, but when we keep hearing about this bird flu and more terror attacks on the USA, who in the h*ll are they gonna call, FMO? You and me!

I am sorry if I sound harsh here, but its 2006 not 1958. Lassie is dead and so is Smokey; we need to remember them but, hey, we are in a war overseas and another one here at home. Do you really think that if all these possibilities everyone keeps talking about happen, that the municipal folks can handle it all? WRONG. They cant because they will be tapped in just under a few minutes.

Now, I hope that you are not taking this as an argument. I am just trying to help educate you on what is happening outside of your district. In region 5, well, all the other regions as well, we all have interface problems, right? Who is responsible for them -- US or the Municipal folks? I bet you say the red trucks, right? Well, in a court of law even if you say it's not in our mission, too bad. 'Cause your truck says FIRE on it, Mr FMO, you're guilty as charged and you've lost the lawsuit or, even worse, going to jail for misrepresentation as a fire dept. The public does not know the difference between Red, White, purple ,brown, Yellow and even GREEN fire engines. All they know is FIRE means help and they need it.

You said there's not a place to carry all the gear on the engine. I agree it's alot of stuff and there is not always room for everything, but EMS gear should be standard for all fire rigs. "What about your folks on the engine?" Suppose they get hurt. Are you going to wait for the volunteers? I did not think so!

Now that I am sure I have pissed a few people off, I will apologize for that. SORRY. I hope that you Albatross, you can understand that we are an AGENCY, not just individuals that hate California's ways of firefighting. Out here in Cali we do have the need to go outside of the mission and, well, maybe it's wrong, so why not help us out and ask for the training that we need to meet our needs out here. Don't just sit back watch us try to move forward while you are an anchor. That goes for all of you out there that think we are those dang R5 guys. Remember R5 started the ICS and we also started the Air tanker program so everything in R5 ain't that bad, LOL!

Thanks for your time and if you have to comment please feel free, which I know most will.
Just to say that I am all for us becoming an organized fire service. TRAINING and EDUCATION is key for all of us nation wide.

NORCAL CAPT

Tom

We have an outstanding fire academy program including wildland. How can
we add College of the Siskiyous to your training site?

Dennis DeRoss
Dean, Career & Technical Education
College of the Siskiyous

Welcome, Dennis. I added it to the Two Year College List. Ab.

What's that old fire saying about firefighting lessons... something like
"delivery of the lesson and the test in fire are often simultaneous?
I looked on the  quotes to live by page and didn't see the exact quote...
Original Ab, did you tell me that years ago?

Mellie

Maybe Uncle Sugar should be subsidizing the Abs & They Said for fulfilling a basic doctrinal need; you provide a medium for honest, open, and timely communications.

Honest and open communications seem to be in short supply these days. Just watch the news.

If you want to see how faulty organizational communications can negatively affect safety, check out the Columbia Accident Investigation Board Report. I found many striking similarities between the problems that NASA and the Forest Service have faced during the past few decades. I warn you, this report is large but it contains a great deal of wisdom. Here’s the link:
www.nasa.gov/columbia/home/CAIB_Vol1.html

I just finished reading an excellent book entitled “Apollo, Challenger, Columbia; The Decline of the Space Program: A Study in Organizational Communication” by Philip K Tompkins. Dr. Tompkins has worked closely with NASA since the 1960’s and analyzes the gradual decline of NASA’s ability to operate within acceptable safety margins. Dr. Tompkins makes an excellent case that organizations are constituted by communication, and that many of the problems faced by organizations like ours can be improved by promoting open and honest communications.

On the flip side, here are some examples of the opposite of open and honest communications:

NASA Becoming More Politicized, Critics Contend
www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/13856564.htm

And this lovely gem:

Federal Officials Throw Gasoline on OSU Forestry Fire
www.oregonlive.com/editorials

And so it goes.

Misery Whip

Misery Whip, thanks for the kind words. We know we fill a need. We work hard at doing our share, but so does each contributor that makes this community what it is. Thanks to all. Ab.

Attached is an interesting briefing paper with interpretive photos on the
WUI treatments which made it safe for firefighters to protect the structures,
and stopped the running crown fire. I would only add that the thinning by
the Arizona State Land Department and Bray Creek Ranch, LLC,
pursuant to a grant, also helped.

All is quiet now.

Mike J.

Thanks for resending that Mike.
Readers, here's the briefing paper on  fuel treatments that impacted fire behavior on the February Fire in AZ. There art some excellent instructive photos in this.

This is a 60K msword doc that will download if you click this link:  fuel treatment February Fire (60K doc file) Ab.

	Rep Honda, Michael [CA-15] -1/26/05       Rep Cunningham, (Duke) [CA-50] -1/26/05
	Rep Otter, C.L.(Butch) [ID-1] -1/26/05    Rep Simpson, Michael [ID-2] -1/26/05
	Rep Napolitano, Grace [CA-38] -1/26/05    Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] -1/26/05
	Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] -2/1/05            Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] -2/1/05
	Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] -2/8/05            Rep Weldon, Curt [PA-7] -2/8/05
	Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] -2/8/05          Rep Simmons, Rob [CT-2] -2/9/05
	Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] -3/1/05          Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] -3/1/05
	Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] -3/8/05           Rep Gallegly, Elton [CA-24] -4/6/05
	Rep Michaud, Michael [ME-2] -4/12/05      Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] -4/20/05
	Rep Tauscher, Ellen [CA-10] -4/20/05      Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] -4/21/05
	Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] -5/24/05      Rep Hayworth, J. D. [AZ-5] -5/24/05
	Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] -6/15/05      Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] -6/16/05
	Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] -6/16/05           Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] -6/16/05
	Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] -6/22/05            Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] -6/22/05
	Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] -7/13/05    Rep Gibbons, Jim [NV-2] -7/25/05
	Rep Schiff, Adam B. [CA-29] -11/15/05     Rep Lantos, Tom [CA-12] -2/14/06

I just think some of our leaders need to realize that we are wildland firefighters and thats it. We don't need to put our people at further risk, especially when they aren't properly trained.

Still in R5
DM

This past winter I've been working on a 3/4" hose roller prototype-
Which I think I finally have close to completion. I've identified a
few things I want to change for the production model, but they're all
aesthetic. What I need is some real world testing, since I only have
one piece of hose. Any of you guys up for it?

You can see it here: http://crew13.com/hoseroller.htm Once you've had
a look & want to test it, hit the 'send mail' link & I'll take the
first 10. Test it, fill out a small online form when you're done, and
you get to keep it with my thanks.

I'm pretty sure this version is fairly bomber, but I know the folks we
work with, so if it can be broken I'd like to find out now so I can
build a better one before the season hits.

Thanks to all-
KRS

"My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of 'where's the leadership' we have heard following the tragedies since 1994." You also said, "...we need to ensure we operate within our authority."

I agree that training and equipment are important. I also agree that authority is needed. We have all of these in my area.

Foundational Doctrine answers that question and others you ask.

Since the late 1980's, several of the Southern California forests began equipping and training to put out or prevent our traditional ignition sources from extending into the wildland (houses, vehicles, dumps, and traffic collisions). The corner stone of this decision was based upon "Operational Environment" and it was approved by Line Officers (The people who HAVE authority) far before Foundational Doctrine was ever heard of. Was it covered by the "mission"?... it depends how you interpret "Caring for the Land, Serving People"... aka Commanders Intent.

Many urbanized forests (aka WUI areas) do not have the same traditional ignition sources as some forests. In those forests, the traditional ignition sources may be lightning, campfires, or logging operations. People concentrate on mitigating those ignition sources. Likewise, some urbanized forests concentrate on mitigating their ignition sources. They are not undergoing a "mission shift" just concentrating on the safest, most effective, and efficient way to achieve the mission.

While it may not be happening yet in your area now, as National Forests get more urbanized the mission stays the same, but the way you accomplish the mission is decided by leaders. Leaders are adaptable and open to new ideas and change. If they recognize a hazard that is re-occurring (ie vehicle fire ignition sources) they train, equip, and counter the new hazard.

Student of Fire Science

also... we still do not enter burning structures, confined spaces, or go swimming in shark infested waters. If you have people responding to structure, vehicle, and dump fires etc. without proper training and equipment (and it is needed to accomplish the "mission" in your area), step up and be a leader.... Start talking to your line officer about making things safer... All it takes is a JHA to start the ball rolling.... . If it doesn't apply to your area... great... stop bagging on us that it does apply to.

On my district all we have is type 6 engines and tractor/plows. We have a hard time finding enough room for all the wildland equipment, I cant imagine carrying structural equipment/PPE and well as EMS gear. We train and work closely with our local fire depts. and the county 911 dispatchers. We all know our roles, where we overlap and our limitations. In every part of the country that I have worked, the public knows that when a green engine rolls up, we only do wildland and exterior structure protection. When we are dispatched either by the interagency dispatch or the county 911, we all know before we arrive--if structures even have the possibility of being threatened, the fire dept. is paged out as well. Unless our engines are on patrol in the right in the place the fire starts, the fire depts will usually be the first on scene in the interface. Thats their job, be close to the populated areas and protect the structures.

I dont mean to start an argument of Cali vs. the other 49 states, but California (mainly SoCal) folks need to understand that they work in a totally different environment. I am not arguing with the California FF's arguments, but I believe from most people that I have worked with, we dont always have the same concerns/arguments.

-Most of us outside of Cali dont want anything to do with structural/EMS. We compliment and support each other, but are trained and equipped differently.

-Many of us want nothing to do with brass on our collars, and would resist it if we had to wear it.

I am a district FMO with 20 years in the FS, and maybe its just the "old school" in me talking. I dont want to start another "they said" argument with our brother and sister firefighters from California, I would just like to stress that many of the arguments on this board are unique to California. I truly hope that this doesnt start an argument. I would like to hear from other non R5/ Cali. firefighters to see if I am way off base on this or not.

Ab, thanks for having place for honest, open discussion.

Albatross

I took the liberty of taking Krs's need for firewood to the Arboristsite.com.
There are many firefighters from that area that post regularly on that site. I
don't think they know about Theysaid. I hope this helps, it's about as much
as I can do here on the East Coast.

Onelick

Hi Onelick. Glad yer still lurking. Tell those folks about theysaid! Ab.

There is a very critical point to be made here on what our fire mission is, and what "leadership" is..... and thank Ab we've got a great forum to debate that point.

My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of "where's the leadership" we have heard following the tragedies since 1994.

Leaders/managers that permit their troops to engage in actions where they lack quals is accepting of and promoting the "make do" attitude. However much we want to get into the mix, take action, and not be on the sidelines or spectators...... we must constrain ourselves to our training, experience, and equipment.

Where else would we draw the line? Got a dozer sitting in a vacant lot without a qualified operator? Why not ask one of the crew to jump into the driver's seat? How about a helicopter when the pilot is off duty? Accident victim with signs of internal bleeding...... where's that spleen? These examples seem ridiculous, and they are. No responsible manager would assign a crew to such a task.

But where's the line? And what are the "trigger points"? Immediate threat to life? Risk of losing a million dollar home? How about a trailer? Or the saving of 100 acres of brush?

I would not be adverse to a change in policy that accepts an expanded role. But until we accept that as part of our mission, and until we provide the training and equipment to perform safely, we need to ensure we operate within our authority. We need our leaders to have the courage to lead. And sometimes that means telling folks to disengage, no matter how unpopular that decision may be.

Old Fire Guy

"27. Using principles requires judgment in application, while adherence to rules does not. In combination principles and rules guide our fundamental wildland fire suppression practices and behaviors, and are mutually understood at every level of command"

"Rules cover those things that senior leadership identifies as too important to leave to judgment. They neither require, nor do they benefit from interpretation or discretion."

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/genesis_and_evolution/presentations/2005_posters.ppt (powerpoint)

I can't find anywhere what the "rules" are. Are they the 10 standard fire orders, or are they all of the myriad of existing rules that have caused the situation we are currently in? Or is it somewhere between?

Any thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge out there?

Thanks, 6

From http://cfaonline.cfa.vic.gov.au/mycfa/Show?pageId=publicShowNews&audience=PUBLIC.

This is the 2nd CFA firefighter to be lost this season...

Loss of a CFA firefighter

17/02/2006

It is with deep regret that CFA announces a volunteer firefighter today died on active duty at Barnawartha, near Wodonga, in the state's north east.

A grassfire broke out about 1.30pm and was contained about an hour later.

A female volunteer, aged 41, died after being involved in a tragic vehicle accident on the fireground.

Her family is also involved in the brigade and has been notified.

CFA CEO, Neil Bibby, said:

"While there are no words that can adequately express our grief, our deepest condolences go out to the member's family, friends and fellow brigade personnel.

"There is nothing we can say to alleviate their pain, but we will be there for them. As always, the CFA family will stand behind its members and anyone affected by this devastating loss can be assured of our full support.

"I encourage any CFA member affected by the tragedy to speak to their fellow members and use available counseling services," Mr Bibby said.

The accident is being investigated by CFA, Workcover, police and the coroner.

Seems to me I've seen something like that in colorado papers some time or other.

Rufus

Ab.

If something you send does not make it to theysaid, please resend it with a question. (Unless it's photos; I'm behind on those.) Sometimes keywords or attachments get a message tossed into the spam filter either at the server level or at our local computer level. This can occur even if the message comes from a long-time sender. (I pulled Mollysboy out of the trash just yesterday.) Original Ab and I do not have everyone white-listed on all our computers. When I'm away, I post via laptop, for example. It's definitely not as "learned up" as the Abs big wlf.com computers.

I usually tell people when I'd rather not post their message and why. Of course, to tell you I need to be able to reply to your email. If you email and expect a reply if/when your message isn't posted, make sure that you're sending from a valid e-mail addy. I have to laugh when someone's post gets filtered, Ab get flamed, and the flamer has wasted a lot  of go-juice because he or she doesn't have a valid reply email addy. Not Ab's problem...

To the "most recent person" with the bogus email addy: if you'd like, feel free to resend your post with a valid addy and we can have a dialog, if necessary. It may not be necessary; whatever you sent may be perfectly fine for posting. I don't know, as Ab doesn't have a recent message from you; it likely got filtered or you didn't hit the send button.

To chat-ers and those that network through Ab behind the scenes, thanks for sharing information with those who are looking for it. The private messages with good info provide a service to others, too. Ab.

If Shari doesn't get enough people interested in supporting Krs, let me know. I will rent a U-Haul and haul firewood up there myself. I was on the fireline in Kentucky when Krs was injured... just a few miles away and listened to the whole incident.

I feel guilty about this accident because myself and the SOFR had been battling local fire management about the use of the 101st Airborne Division medics and airlift capability in the event of an injury just days before.... we got shut down on our suggestions and normal operating procedures out west..... It may or may not have made a difference but I would have known the best care available would have been provided..... at least ALS care.

Ken

Maybe see if there are any R-6 Apprentices around that use this website going
down to Sacramento For the Academy --that could pick up that wood in Grants
Pass and deliver it to Chico. Just a thought.

RO

R6 Readers, please ask around to new Academy folks. Ab.

At the Forest Service site, expand the top link Fire Suppression link for menus leading to all sorts of interesting reading. Ab.