"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
FEBRUARY, 2006

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2/28 Brian,

I also started out as a PA State crew guy, and after going out west one year decided it was for me. Now as a Squad Leader on a Type 1 crew I picked up a few things along the way. I was also told as a rookie to carry extra socks, extra shirts, etc…, but I have learned you just need to carry the basics. As a member of a PA State Crew, 9 out of 10 times you will not be spiked out, or too far away from the bus, so just put in to the pack that you really need. Too much weight can kill your moral, after awhile. All of our crew carries the majority of the same stuff, but the extras are spread out through the entire crew, so not one crewmember carries too much, except the saw teams. What you carry in your pack is up to you since there is no SOP for your crew, but here is what we have our folks put in theirs:

Your Fire Shelter (New Generation)
Minimum of 4 quarts of water
4 fusees
1 Bastard File (w/ handle & sheath)
Safety Glasses (clear and dark lenses)
Space Blanket
2 Pairs Gloves (1 used & 1 spare)
Individual First Aid Kit
2 Extra Pairs Ear Plugs
Headlamp (plus extra batteries)
1 M.R.E. (Enough for 2 meals)
20' P-Cord
Toilet Paper
1 Roll of Pink Flagging
2 Light Sticks
Rain Poncho
Cold Wx Gear (Beanie, thermal shirt, etc…)
Sigg Bottles (as assigned)
Sawyer Gear (as assigned)
Box of Batteries (as assigned)
Fiber Tape (as assigned)
Extra Rolls of Flagging (as assigned)
Water Filtration Kit (as assigned)
Belt Weather Kit (as assigned)
Kestrel (as assigned)

As far as what pack to use, that is a tuff one. If you are on a hotshot crew one is given to you so they all look alike, but they are pretty spendy if you are purchasing just one. All of the pack manufactures will tell you that theirs are the best, but I have found that Ruffian Specialties who make ours really hold up to the abuse they go through each year. If you are just going to come out west one or twice every couple of years, I would probably not spend the money like I did when I was in your shoes. The FSS pack is good enough for one trip a year, but that’s it, those things suck if you have to wear it day in and day out.

Hope this helps.

SRJS
2/28 For Zimm,

I am on a state crew in PA. I have been accumulating stuff since day one and the pack has gotten heavy and over stuffed. (Granted it may also be the pack), which could bring up another question. What does everybody think regarding packs? Is the yellow federal pack good (that is what I have and it has worked for me)? I have been looking at all these other packs out there and there are so many options to choose from what have all of you had experience with?

Brian
2/28 Hello All,

Does anyone know how many new jumpers were hired on this season at Redmond? It's just a rumor, but the word on the street is that some well qualified and experienced jumpers were passed over for some much less experienced and much newer personnel, but I'm not believing this unsubstantiated bit of gossip and I figured someone here would know. It was a major topic of heated discussion at a recent mini-reunion, and from the sounds of it a coming topic of discussion for more than just a few of us groundpounders. It wouldn't make good sense from a financial and safety standpoint to hire and train newby types when there are unemployed and trained experienced personnel around, would it? So I'll just assume it's not true unless I learn otherwise.

Fire Ape
2/27 NMAirBear,

I have to agree with Jon Stewart and the Daily Show's assessment of what it takes to work for the current administration. To think up a proposal to cut 21,000 jobs from the U.S. Forest Service and have the huevos to call it the "Green Plan" - it must really take some big trousers to fit those walnuts.

What will they come up with next?

vfd cap'n
2/27 Ab: I just got this from a friend. I am not sure what the source is but it looks like a press article. It should be of considerable interest to TheySaid readers....... NMAirBear

FOREST SERVICE EYES OUTSOURCING TWO-THIRDS OF WORKFORCE
Thousands of Ranger, Biologist, Smoke-Jumper Jobs Out to Bid

Washington, DC —The U.S. Forest Service is studying how to contract out more than two-thirds of its total workforce by 2009, according to agency planning documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). Coming on the heels of Bush administration plans to sell off 300,000 acres of Forest Service land, the agency is also looking to potentially privatize large portions of its environmental, law enforcement, fire-fighting and research operations.

Under the agency plans, 21,350 full-time jobs will soon be under review for possible replacement by private sector firms. The Forest Service has a total of 31,625 full-time jobs, according to Office of Personnel Management figures for FY 2003:

During the current fiscal year, 500 fire-fighting jobs in the aviation program, including the famed smoke-jumpers, will be examined for outplacement to interested contractors;

  • In FY 2007, approximately half of the agency’s law enforcement agents and rangers (600 positions), the jobs of all of its geologists (500 jobs) and 1,100 biologists who prepare environmental studies on the impacts of timber sales, oil and gas leasing and other actions on national forest lands may be put out to bid;
  • In FY 2008, the agency’s entire network of scientists and other researchers (2,000 slots) and 3,000 foresters and range conservation staff positions will be reviewed for outsourcing potential
  • “The Forest Service appears to be having an internal fire sale, with the heart of our national forests put out for bid on eBay,” stated Jeff Ruch, PEER Executive Director. “We may soon see the Weyerhaeuser National Forest patrolled by rent-a-rangers, overseen by private consultants.”

In 2003, an outsourcing plan of similar scope, designed to meet Bush administration outsourcing quotas prior to the 2004 election, was halted by Congressional action. Then, as now, one of the major concerns was the added cost to the Forest Service to conduct the studies and stage the competitions. In its latest proposed budget, the Bush administration is cutting back Forest Service operating funds without providing any new funds to pay for this broad undertaking. In 2003, the Forest Service spent an estimated $360 million on studies but produced no identifiable savings.

Large scale outsourcing also has a dampening impact on sagging employee morale, already depressed by shrinking budgets. To make matters more contentious, the Forest Service is advancing its plan without consulting the unions representing affected employees.

“For decades, this agency has invoked the phrase ‘Forest Service family’ to connote a cohesive, close-knit organization, but this plan puts whole branches of the family on the auction block,” Ruch added, noting that effective contract management has not been one of the strong suits of the federal government. “This whole misguided effort is an example of mindless management by slogan lacking in any analysis as to how to make the Forest Service actually run better or more efficiently.”

###

Read the new Forest Service Outsourcing Plan (pdf file)

This is the Outsourcing Review process that all of the FS is undergoing, dictated by Congress. Readers can ask Tom Harbour about this at the Chief Officers Meeting in Reno tomorrow. Ab.

2/27 According to norcalfire group -
600 acres escaped control burn north of Weed, California on Hwy 97 this past
weekend. One structure lost, strike teams formed from ShastaT NF and TGU
CDF.

It had been quite warm here in norcal for a week, but heavy rain now.

Pyrolsis

2/27 Ab and All,

We burned star thistle on our meadow in Trinity County over the weekend. This was following a full week of sun and some drying winds. Boy was it dry flashy fuel. It was awesome! Good we didn't have winds when it was burning.

Love that little drip torch. (What are the proportions of diesel to gas? My nephew mixed it up and we didn't blow up! Phew. It dripped just fine! What fun!)

I'll send in some photos when I get a chance.

Mellie

2/27 Hey ab,

is all the rain and snow in california and the pac nw have any significant effect on the fire season?

thanks dan

2/27 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated.

Ab.

2/27 Lobotomy,

You have compared the Forest Officer pay scale in a number of posts. I don't know how a Forest Officer compares with the GS 3 and 4 job duties but I suspect the Forest Officer has more responsibilities in law enforcement and as an engine operator. The other two Fire fighter positions used by ODF are the Laborer 1 and 2 series and are the most common positions used in most Districts. These two positions are considered entry level fire positions. The Forest Officer position less so...

Laborer 1 - $1,506 to $ 1,999 per month (eight seasons to make it to the top of the pay scale)
Laborer 2 - $ 1,764 to $2,258 per month. (same as above)

Portal to Portal pay? I wouldn't bet on it... Wouldn't turn it down either...or would I?

Oliver
2/27 AB-

Go to www.scalefirebombers.com to see a few pictures of the aircraft
mentioned in this thread. Click “Fixed Wing-Part 1 and 2”. They are
all there.

“Tanker Fan”
2/27 re Sis-Q Flying Service

I'm glad there are still some folks around that remember. My father was a mechanic at Sis-Q for a number of years. (Dave Greeson) Unfortunately dad passed on Aug. 2004. I remember spending a few long nights on tanker 49. Hope everybody from that place and those days are well.

Jeff Greeson

2/27 Richard Murillo,

Need to talk to you about fire season! Please contact Firestormers.

Firestormer 360-880-3473
2/26 Hey Ab,

I have a question for anybody that might have an answer. I heard that the FS is officially testing the "Super tanker 747"?????

Since I am here, what the heck I might as well ask this too. Since the MEL buildup, has anyone really been at the 100% of MEL?? I am asking cause I know that my forest has only been about 60% and that is a day when all engines are on duty and all crews as well. Alot of engines in north zone are only 5 day effective, because we have folks who say that we have no money!! My question to them is WHY NOT? I know there are funds redirected to other agenda items but fire is fire and that money is for fire plain and simple.

If R5 loses the so called 40 engines, how many are NOPS vs OSC? I believe we will hear alot at the meeting this week, so let's make sure we ask about this and remain FIRM!! One last thing to add to this, who knows where they are gonna make the cuts? If you do the math, 40 engines equals 280 positions cut or 200 depending on the daily staffing levels of the engines. Now if you add all these modules up --just in salaries for 5 day staffing figured as year round it's easier that way-- this is a savings of 89 million dollars. Now if they surplus the engines figuring they will get rid of the older stuff first, at say $25,000 each, it's 1 million... so $90 million saved with the cuts. For 90 million dollars saved I bet that this can become real folks, so we need to make a stand and fight! It's our jobs plain and simple and if you're a new hire with little time in well here is the door, is something you might hear very soon!!

I hope this kinda opens some eyes to this issue cause I know if they are able to save 90 million dollars going back to the pre MEL staffing it looks good on paper!!!!!

NORCAL CAPT

You yourself can ask Tom Harbour these questions on Tuesday at the R5 Chief Officers' Meeting. Ask away... Somebody's got to. Ab.

2/26 So much is now on the table regarding “Doctrine”….

Here you go folks...a doctrine to make anyone step back and think (hopefully)…

( A bit of introduction….I have four children…three of which are now out in the world on their own. One – an 11 year old – is in my face…demanding my attention as a focused adult)

…and this is what I have to say…

“Five words…Courage…Integrity…Leadership…Curiosity…and Concern…”

Any program…education and/or institutional…or (whatever else there might be out there…) address these issues and you’ll be on the right track.

Hey…WO…pay attention….If we can’t raise our children on these basics…how can we raise you?

With utmost hope…

Shari Downhill
2/26 Time flies, so they say.

It seems just like yesterday. Sis Q flying service actually lost three F7F's
in 1974. All within thirty days. Mike Fagen, crashed on take off from
Rhonerville, CA. Bill Benedict and Dick Miller I believe hit trees. Not real
positive on that though.

Bob Forbes
2/25 what to put into a pack:

An answer for Brian in cleaning out his pack. Is he an engine or crew guy. If crew travel
a bit light but have: socks X 3, toothbrush, leatherman, washcloth, 4 liters water (In my
younger days 4 one liter or 1/5 liter bottles), 3 mre (make sure they are ones you like
and none that are old, they taste terrible after a while), 1 extra tshirt, handbook, at least
1 fuses, taskbook, redcard, and what ever else fits.

If engine travel heavy, remember the engine can carry a lot, but your daypack can be light.

Zimm

2/25 Re SIS-Q Flying Service:

Bob,

Back in the 70's SIS-Q flying service flew out Santa Rosa,Ukiah, Paso
Robles fleet included DC-6s, F7Fs, PBY and S2Fs. In 1974 SIS-Q lost
two pilots and two F7F air tankers one accident occurred on take off
from Rohnerville and one near Hopland tail number E31.

Rhino

2/25 Re: Health Hazards of Smoke

Has anyone in the research world of wildland fire considered the health hazards associated with Fusarium Mycotoxins. Of particular interest is the compound called Butenolide.

Fusarium Mycotoxins are fungi found in the soils and within wildland vegetation. When burned, they produce a compound called Butenolide. Butenolide has been found to be harmful to key organs (liver, kidneys, lungs) and is considered to be carcinogenic. The MTDC studies on the health hazards of smoke do not appear to have addressed this hazard.

Hazards from Butenolide are from inhalation and ingestion. When combined with moisture, they may also be an absorption hazard. Allergenic effects have also been noted.

Butenolide compounds can be transported home with you if you bring dirty nomex, boots, or yourself home without proper decontamination. Don’t bring a hazard home.

Recommendations:

1) Re-Open and fund the MTDC Health Hazards of Smoke Program.
2) Wash all PPE at work prior to bringing it home.
3) If exposed to smoke, shower before returning home.
4) Start tracking cancers among wildland firefighters and their families.
5) Start a retro study on cancers among firefighters.
6) Again…. Re-open and fund the MTDC Health Hazards of Smoke Program.

Lobotomy
2/25 Ab and all:

Before this year starts I am cleaning out my line pack. I was wondering what everybody carries so I can get some advice in deciding what to leave and what to get rid (not carry on the line but have available) of. This part of the request may come off strange but I will do my best in asking this part of the question clearly. With packs being customizable, what do you carry in the "full" line pack compared to just the harness and accessory pouch(es)? Also, what do you find works well for fluid storage i.e. the GSA bottles, back pack hydration system, military surplus canteens, or other types of containers or a combination of different ones?

Thank You
Brian
2/25 Ab,

Here's a good idea for changing the ways we do investigations. I believe it's
similar to the peer review process for academic and scientific papers.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/mgmt/briefing_papers/peer_review_panels.pdf

Tahoe Terrie

2/25 To Bob Nance:

Siskiyou Flying Service was one of the early tanker operators in California and flew F7F's and TBMs for CDF as well as the USFS. They were based in Montague in Siskiyou County and later moved their operation to Santa Rosa at the Sonoma County Airport.F7F's flew during the late 50's,60's and 70's and were a fast airtanker. Some pilots made the comment that it was a joy to fly a airtanker with fighter performance.

Allen
2/25 re Katrina Lessons Learned,

Thanks Rogue Rivers for your comments. Ditto on those.

Here are two additional items from the report that have potential effects on the wildland fire program.

"ESF-9 must include the United States Forest Service’s (USFS), DOI and EPA capabilities to perform search and rescue operations. USFS is given the role as primary agency under ESF-4: Firefighting and as supporting agency under ESF-9. DOI is a principal partner with USFS in carrying out ESF-4 functions. As firefighters make up a large percentage of FEMA Urban Search and Rescue teams, their expertise and capabilities should also contribute to search and rescue operations. Under SF-9, the mission statements of USFS and DOI should include the availability of firefighting personnel, not just equipment and supplies, for use in search and rescue operations. ESF-9 must include the capabilities of all participants in the National Search and Rescue Committee.

"In addition, USDA’s Forest Service deployed approximately 300-350 law enforcement officers to the affected area as members of ESF-4 Incident Management Teams. Eventually, over 3,500 Federal law enforcement officers were deployed to the region."

It seems to me and seemed so at the time that the Forest Service performed well and provided the first contingent of federal law enforcement officers, set up good camps, but was under utilized in the fire arena and the ESF function 4 responsibilities.

This is much like H-527 being turned around enroute to Louisiana, as fires burned.

Mellie

2/24 Bluesman,

You got it all jacked up. The discussion was about having CDL drivers who have attended an engine academy. It is a potential regional policy that all CDL drivers that have not attended an engine academy would not be allowed to drive a fire engine. It is probably a result of the two accidents last year on the Cleveland National Forest.

It was focused on the significance of using apprentices to fill vacant AFEO positions, totally irrelevant from the triggering accident(s) causing review of policies and an un-neccessary knee jerk reaction. Much like how 401 is going to MAKE FIREFIGHTERS SAFER.

Was the BOD meeting a joke? Speak freely and feel free to use a moniker.

Lobotomy
2/24 Bluesman, which part of my questioning a "rumor" was incorrect?

I saw the RO memo directing 5 day coverage as an alternative to stay within allocated budgets..It also said my Forest couldn't hire any temporary firefighters....should hold off on hiring non-essential fire positions, etc....  . Which fire positions are non-essential?..... . ya can't hide that as a rumor. It is also pretty clear that Region 5 is in a world of hurt when it comes to this years budget.... EVERY forest was underfunded for the buildups they made under the NFP.

A loss of 40+ engine modules was discussed.... it was also discussed as a part of cost containment measures... don't forget that.

If the letter that came out of the RO is incorrect direction or advice, it should be retracted.

Gizmo
2/24 We're pleased to announce that National Fire Fighter has a new direct link from our Classifieds Page.  We appreciate the companies and organizations who chose us to help market their business.  You can help support us by using our classifieds page as your one-stop shopping gateway.  If you know of other honest and reliable vendors you think should have a place on the page, please let us know about them. 

Thanks, OA.

2/24 Interesting letter on British Columbia's decision to not use fire shelters.

Bluesman

See the link below.  fire-shelter.pdf  Thanks to the other folks who sent this in. Ab.

2/24 Pretty interesting viewpoint and decision. This info would also help
during discussions on Situational Awareness and entrapment avoidance
training.

fire-shelters.pdf  (2,206K pdf file)

Pass it along.

TC

2/24 Does Anybody Know...

hi

was there a tanker company called siskue aviation, a friend of mine named
Norm Silver said he flew F7F;s for them in the 70's.

thanks

Bob Nance
(retired fireman/helicopter pilot)

2/24 Gizmo's post is not correct. The rumor he refers to was from notes
generated at the last BOD meeting and has to do with leadership and having
2 qualified CDL drivers on an engine module to respond to any incident.
Given the slow pace of filling vacant positions in the region, some modules
will be without either qualified leaders or drivers or both and have to cut
back on days effective or be put out of service for the season. Has nothing
to do with MEL.

Sign me "Bluesman"

Thanks for setting the record straight. Ab.

2/24 Ab,

Re: the Tactical Truths.

Has it been six years already since I sent that in? Maybe that helps
explain why I just can't remember where I got it. It could have been email,
or one of those things you see a heavily-xeroxed copy of on the wall of a
crew's ready room, or maybe someone gave it to me in a desperate hope that
some of it would sink in.

I don't think I added much, but I reorganized it to the way it's printed on
your site so that it would be a bit easier to use.

There's some pretty good stuff in there.

BLM Bob
2/24 Ab,

FYI --The Roseburg, Oregon school shooting victim is the son of
the late Vic Monti, of Lassen NF.

Student Critically Injured In Roseburg, Oregon School Shooting

DS

We'll keep him in our thoughts and prayers. Ab.

2/24 Re: Recruitment and Retention…. it’s just a California Problem?

For those looking at entry level or second year employment as a wildland firefighter in the Western U.S., here is the pay you can expect for the 2006 fire season:

Forest Service Temporary Pay – Rest of U.S.
GS-3 - $1881.00 per month / No Benefits
GS-4 - $2111.50 per month / No Benefits

Oregon Department of Forestry
Forest Officer - $2,001 - $2,713 Monthly w/ Benefits (Possible Portal to portal pay in the future)

Wyoming Office of State Lands and Investments, Forestry Division
Helicopter Crewmember - $2080 - $2600 Monthly / Benefits Unknown

Washington Department of Natural Resources
Natural Resource Worker 2 - $2021 - $2537 Monthly / Benefits Unknown

Nevada Division of Forestry
Seasonal Firefighter 1 - $2371.58 - $3441.67 Monthly / Benefits Unknown
Seasonal Firefighter 2 - $2571.67 - $3753.17 Monthly / Benefits Unknown

Idaho State Department of Lands
www.idl.idaho.gov/bureau/administration/seasonal_flyers/seasonalflyer2006.pdf

Utah Division of Forestry, Fire and State Lands
Forestry Technician - $1648.40 - $2281.07 Monthly / Benefits Unknown

Montana Department of Natural Resources and Conservation
Various Positions - $1599.87 Monthly / Benefits Unknown

California Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection
Firefighter 1 - $2333.00 - $2837.00 Monthly w/ Benefits (Including portal to portal pay)

Lobotomy
2/24 > From The Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina: Lessons Learned

Appendix A – Recommendations

"All Federal departments and agencies should align their response structures to NIMS. In accordance with this alignment, the entire Federal response structure should be NIMS based, reporting through one unified command using the same terminology and basic organizational structure. Although ICS is a field command structure, developing an understanding of the ICS at all levels will eliminate confusion, standardize operations throughout the government, and limit unnecessary interference with field command. DHS should lead a review of all Federal department and agency response operations plans to guarantee conformance with NIMS and the NRP, from response teams to command post operations."

Appendix B - What Went Right

"About 3,000 members of the Forest Service also deployed to the region to support response efforts. Arriving in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, and Alabama, Forest Service personnel established support camps, provided aviation assistance, and transported desperately needed supplies to relief workers. The base camps they established were capable of supporting 1,000 emergency responders at each site. They bolstered the destroyed aircraft infrastructure in the region with their own fixed wing planes and helicopters. They also helped navigate the Federal procurement system and successfully obtained needed emergency response supplies. These activities allowed local and state emergency response personnel to focus on response rather than worrying about the supplies and other support they needed."

I would have to wonder how things would have gone better if they allowed more of the Incident Management Teams to manage incidents rather than just providing logistical support in many cases? The press articles today saying the response should be in the hands of the military needs to be really rethought.... they should be in the hands of incident managers.

Rogue Rivers

2/24 Abs,

I'm pretty sure that the sayings attributed to Rand Kapral below are actually from Phoenix Fire Chief Alan Brunacini.  He had a small section of those witticisms in the back of his book Fire Command.  He's now got a book out entitled Timeless Tactical Truths, from which these come.

As a secondary note, I'm now relaxing/recovering after a long week at the Firehouse World conference in San Diego.  It was great so see many of my brothers in blue and even some of those wearing green.  Marc Hawkins and Kelly Gouette put on a great class on the ins and outs of being a Structure Protection Group Sup.  There were several other wildland oriented classes as well, including S290 and S215.  Nice to see us all training in the same sandbox.  I'm pushing the sponsors hard to include more classes to interest the wildland folks.  The more we train and socialize together the better we'll be collectively.

Fish
2/24 Re: Centralizing Functions within the Forest Service

Since the Forest Service has been hog wild lately centralizing functions
(law enforcement, human resources, communications, information
services, etc.), isn't it time for a discussion on centralizing fire?

I work on a Forest that has had a centralized the fire program for over
10 years and it seems to work very well.

Lobotomy
2/24 Would the person using the following I.D. please re-contact the FWFSA regarding your question:
SoCal_firefightersshouldcontinuetobepaidasone. Your e-mail address was invalid.

We are not aware of what you are talking about or the background of your comments. Please
contact the FWFSA with additional information or clarification.

FWFSA_Socal
2/24 There are rumors floating around that Region 5 may be losing 40+ engines
this coming fire season due to budget cuts. There also are rumors that many
fire engines will only be covered five days a week instead of seven.

It's amazing how fast 100% MEL came and went.......

Gizmo
2/24 For the information I requested:

thank you so much!!!

DelRosa IHC reunion guy

2/23 Just a notice to those of you that know Darrell Wittke, a former
smokejumper who jumped out of Boise. Darrell was killed in a motorcycle
accident last weekend near Helena, Montana. More information can be found
in the obituary section of the Helena Daily Record.

Todd Camm
South Zone Fire Management Officer
Middle Fork RD Willamette NF

Ab note from the paper: A memorial service will be held 2 p.m. Saturday, Feb. 25, at the Retz Funeral Home Chapel, Helena. A reception will follow at the West Valley Fire Hall on Forestvale Road. Memorials in Darrell’s name are suggested to the Darrell Wittke’s Children Education Fund, c/o the Elkhorn Federal Credit Union at Fort Harrison, MT 59636.

Todd, please give our condolences to his family if you have an opportunity to speak with them. Ab.

2/23 Kamie-

Thanx. That is basically the info I was looking for. I've read the same thing about them from others but not from someone on the line. I will probably find myself around the ICP since I am trained as an FBAN, RESL, SOF2 or DMOB Unit Leader. Those Corcorans may be well placed in an office/light duty setting. Thanx again. The search continues.

D F

2/23 The Katrina Lessons Learned Report is out.

DHS Website, Press Room

It's 228 pages. The guts of the report is 85 pages, but the recommendations are in the appendix, hmmmm... 17 sections of recommendations... I'm interested in what they think NIMs should be and do. Hopefully they don't recommend undoing any of NIMs. This is of concern because it will determine the next set of policy changes... if any.

Could be a weekend read, in the sun at the ranch, glass of lemonade, large straw hat, feet propped up, while the guys dig the trench... Yeah, right...

Mellie

2/23 Aberdeen -

Generally I just wore my regular work boots, 8" terra lites that are gortex and steel toed. I work in a multi-task workplace with firefighting generally taking up no more than 20% of my time. I decided to buy a 10" unlined boot to use solely for wildland firefighting. The terra's are a good boot but fire wrecks havoc on them and I have no back-up pair. Last weekend I strolled into the local army surplus and was surprised to see a brand new pair of Corcoran jump boots sitting on the shelf. I picked them up. I never seemed to have the time when out west to question the guys or gals on the unit crews which type of boot they preferred or how they maintained them. Thanx for responding.

Dawg Fude

2/23 Dawg Fude...

I'm just assuming here but you must stand morning inspections in them Corcoran's because that's about the only thing they're good for. Ask any Paratrooper, who has more than 5 jumps, about Corcorans. I spent 5 years in Army Airborne units (236 jumps) and my Corcoran's stayed highly shined, but out of the way until the next Class "A" inspection. On the fireline you'd probably be better off with a pair of flip-flops.

Kamie

2/23 Dawg Fude - a quick question regarding your post about boots. Since you stated that you've been out West as a DIVS, what kind of footwear were you wearing when you were a FFT2, FFT1, Crew Boss, Strike Team Leader and earlier assignments as a DIVS?

Aberdeen
2/23 "A good scare is always better than good advice."

Written by the Navajo Scouts on the back of their time card next to a sketch of the
Dude Fire portrayed as a monster throwing fire balls over them as they escaped,
not knowing that the fire had killed 6 of 11 entrapped Perryville Crew behind them.
Experience is a great teacher until it kills you. Teaching is a great experience, but is
good it enough to save you?

Old Sawyer.

2/23 Re firewood, etc

Amazing but not surprising…

I just want to personally send my appreciation to all of you who jumped so quickly when you realized what was needed. Often that’s all it takes. There are so many people who want to help but really aren’t sure how. And, sadly, there are also many people who could really use help, but don’t know exactly how to ask. Hopefully, the “Wood For Krs” effort will send a message in a gentle way…. If you need something…or know someone who needs something, just let it be known. If you don’t feel comfortable posting the information or request in such a public venue as this, contact Vicky Minor or any of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation crew (208) 336-2996) . They are facilitators extraordinaire. Thanks to you too Abs, for your valuable role in this.

Now…for world peace…

Ciao,
Shari Downhill

Remember that OUR Wildland Firefighter Foundation needs 52 Club memberships.
It's a new year. This is our community's "security blanket". OUR Foundation has demonstrated this over and over; this is no BS. The Foundation steps up but only if we SIGN UP! Get your crew to sign up! Ab.

2/23 A firefighter that I have a ton of respect for once told me

”If you over order on a fire and you stop it, you will hear about it for
the rest of the season, If you under order on a fire and you lose it,
you will hear about it for the rest of your career”!!

Firefly

2/23 Hi Ab,

I've been looking over the articles on the "they said" page and I have a
question regarding footwear that is probably a little redundant.

I've bought a pair of Corcoran "jump" boots and am going through the
painful break-in. Do you or anyone you know use these boots for wildland
FF? I've read they are a great jump and parade boot but may be a tad
hard on the feet for heavy field use. Also, from most of the articles and
advice I've gotten, I've decided to treat them with a a leather conditioner
and Nikwax. I've been west fighting fires as a Div Sup and of course see
these hotshot crews working diligently on their boots (probably a better
chance getting a date with their girlfriends than borrowing their boots for
an evening).

Anywho, this is a rookie request so before the pros jump on a "boot"
question, I'll let you know I've researched the subject way too much but
have yet to get an opinion(s) from someone who has actually put their
boots to the black. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dawg Fude

2/22 thanks sting!!! Good reading. I thought it would be good to share with people that hate to look at links.

Lobotomy

> From Rand Kapral as posted in the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Thoughts_and_Sayings.doc

FIRES GIVE THE TEST JUST AHEAD OF THE LESSON.
* The very worst fire plan is no plan (the next worse is two plans).
* The only safe wildfire assumption is assume the worst.
* If you have lots of ideas, you will need lots of help.
* A little effort in the beginning can eliminate the need for lots of effort at the end.
* Move quick--young conditions are easier to control than old ones.
* It is better to get out five minutes too soon than five seconds too late.
* Very little on a fire falls up.
* Don't ever let your inclination to gamble outdistance your fear.
* Safe firefighters are smart firefighters.
* Never confuse repeat fires for routine fires; the same basic deadly elements are present at every fire--there are no routine fires.
* Don't stand too close to people who are always bandaged up.
* If you panic, be certain to run in the correct direction.
* Safety prevents meetings, reviews, and investigations.
* Fires all go out eventually.
* Trust safety, not luck.
* When you're having problems take a partner.
* Don't spend all your chips--always have a tactical reserve.
* Losing your temper generally represents the incipient stage of rectal-
cranial inversion.
* Good procedures are so simple you don't need to write them down to remember them or use a dictionary to understand them.
* When someone screws up, yell at them -- they'll love it.
* Keep working on the basics -- most of us are not advanced enough to make advanced mistakes.
* Be careful of people who close their eyes and open their mouths.
* Educational times on the fire are not always fun times.
* If you don't have a plan, don't add additional resources.
* If you're gonna order, you gotta pay the check.
* Beware of Kamikaze pilots who have gone on 65 missions.
* Experience and education are like oregano--they must be mixed with alot of other stuff to be good.
* Be careful around people who attach status to knowing things you don't.
* Never is a long time.
* Beware of the supervisor who says, "Don't do anything until I get there."
* If you think the cost of fire training is expensive, check out the cost of ignorance.
* There ain't no fair fights on a fire.
* It is difficult to get just a little bit exited.
* Some days on the fireline the best it gets is so-so.
* When you lose your head, the next thing is your ass.
* If the forest burns don't take it personally, you didn't make the woods combustible and you didn't start the bloomin thing.
* If looking at a fire makes you crazy, don't look at it.
* If you can't control yourself, you can't control anything.
* Surprises are nice on your birthday, not on a fire.
* Take firefighting seriously but do not take yourself seriously.
* Always take care of people who are trying to make you look good and make it easy as possible for them to do so.
* Hope for the best -- plan for the worst.
* Everything on a fire is "too" something.
* If you aren't dressed to play, stay in the bleachers and off of the field.
* There are no credit cards on a fire -- you pay for everything you do at the time you do it.
* There aren't any "time outs" on a wildfire.
* The next tragedy will take the pressure off the last tragedy.
* If you are not willing to disagree with a decision and to really THINK, stay home and watch the fire on TV.
* Every fire situation has a limited number of decisions -- they can be made by you or the fire.
* Do not think that you are communicating just because you are talking.
* Most of the time, the first five minutes are worth the next five hours.
* The longer you wait to make a decision, the fewer options you will have.
* Be careful of what you say in difficult situations--offhanded, dumb comments are like aluminum cans--they last forever in the environment.
* The further you are from the last fire the closer you are to the next one.
* There is no connection between the amount of hose on a fire and the amount of water put on the fire.
* Smart people on a fire can tell what is going to happen -- anyone can tell what has happened.
* Don't trust smoke--it can hide what is really going on.
* The most important fire is the one you're on now.
* The more routine decisions you make prior to a fire the more time you will have to make critical decisions during the fire.
* Don't change the rules by breaking them.

Sting and Lobotomy, thanks. Mellie, good memory.

Ab did a search on "Fires give the test just ahead of the lesson" and look what I found from BLM Bob in 2000. He had more "truths" in categories -- We even made a page for them: Tactical Truths

  • Fire Ops,
  • Planning,
  • Working with People,
  • Taking Care of Yourself, and
  • Important Things You Will Learn.

Hey BLM Bob, do you know where these came from? Clearly they've been around for a while... part of wildland firefighter culture.

Searched on this one, too: "Experience is knowledge you gain, right after you need it." Boo (Texas Forest Service) sent that in first time in 2000. That got added to Bob's list and posted later on the Scratch Lines page (in 2004). Good stuff. I'm adding BLM Bob's Tactical Truth link to the Links Page under Miscellaneous so we don't loose track of it again.

Ab.

2/22 What both Bob and NorCal Capt said is correct about having EMS equipment on a fire truck. You never know where you will be or when that kit will be needed. Been there.

My only suggestion on getting a kit is to write down every thing you think you will need and stick with the most necessary items. Gloves, burn kit, gauze etc. My jump kit weights in at around 65lbs and trying to run around with that slung over your shoulder is not easy.

One more vital thing is to get the training because it doesn't do you one bit of good if you have no idea what in the H*LL you are doing.

That may seem pretty strong for a few and I am not out to start a fight, but it is the truth. If you are out of your local area and you end up on a serious accident make sure you get with the local TTC and get the briefing done.

TTC is trained trauma counselor.

Cris

2/22 For those of you ex-Del Rosa Hotshots, don't forget to sign up for the
Del Rosa Hotshot's 60th. Anniversary Reunion.

We are still trying to locate Jose (Joe) Cruz, retired W.O. Director of
Fire and Aviation Management for the Forest Service and former member
of the Del Rosa Hotshots. Any help would be appreciated.... thanks!!

DRHS

He's in Oregon. Ab.

2/22 USDA Forest Service

Tonto National Forest

Rim Forests Begin Fire Restrictions

PHOENIX: February 21, 2006

Drought conditions and increased fire danger have resulted in the implementation of fire restrictions for the Apache-Sitgreaves, Coconino and Tonto national forests beginning February 23 at 8 a.m.

Centered on the Mogollon Rim, the restrictions place limitations on campfires, charcoal fires and smoking. The Tonto National Forest also restricts chainsaw use, welding, operating machinery without spark arresters and discharge of firearms, except while engaged in legal hunting activities. Use of petroleum-fueled stoves, lanterns, and heating devices are allowed within the areas where restrictions apply, and some developed campgrounds are also exempted from these restrictions.

On the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest, fire restrictions cover the area between the Rim Road (Forest Road 300) and the edge of the Mogollon Rim and an area immediately south of Highway 260 bordered by the Young Road (Forest Road 512) on the east and the Mogollon Rim on the south and west. On the Coconino National Forest, restrictions are in place along the Mogollon Rim, east of Highway 87, between the Rim and the Rim Road (Forest Road 300). Fire restrictions on the Tonto National Forest cover all land north of the Control Road (Forest Road 64) between the Irving Power Plant and the Young Road .

The Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest has also implemented a forest closure on Promontory Butte adjacent to the Rim Road . This area is closed to public entry due to high fire danger and the lack of a safe route of travel in the event of a wildfire.

For further information regarding recreation sites and fire restrictions, including maps and additional camping information, please contact the appropriate forest:

Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest, (928) 333-4301, www.fs.fed.us/r3/ansf
Coconino National Forest, (928) 527-3600, www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino
Tonto National Forest, (602) 225-5200, www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto

For general information on fire activity and restrictions in Arizona visit the Southwest Region website at http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc or call toll-free 877-864-6985.
2/22 Dear Rogue:

Don't be shy about dropping names from the Policy Implications report. One of the report participants...Forest Service Director of Fire & Aviation Tom Harbour.

I have shopped that and a number of other pertinent agency generated documents to DC staff for sometime now and also referred to the report during my testimony before the House Federal W& Agency Organization subcommittee last summer.

There is no secret left for the agencies to hide from all of us. The FWFSA's membership structure provides us with a wealth of data & information with members from entry-level to chief officers and now even a US Attorney.

The smoke & mirrors will not work anymore and from my conversations with a number of top brass at the Forest Service, they want us to succeed in getting portal to portal & other benefits. Of course they won't risk their political rear-ends to say so publicly.

The FWFSA has established sufficient credibility on Capitol Hill to the point that the agencies can no longer ignore us or ignore the impact we're making.

The portal to portal issue goes back over 20 years. Each of the land management agencies and a number of reports conclude it makes good policy and, if done the way we want it to be done, save significant tax dollars while reducing, if not entirely eliminating recruitment & retention problems.

OPM & congress discussed basic health benefits for temporary firefighters 14 years ago. So... my face to face question to the Acting Director of OPM last July... who, by the way didn't know our federal firefighters were GS employees or that temporary firefighters don't get benefits was "what are you waiting for... we're here to help."

So don't be shy about name dropping. It is simply clearly time to get the agencies to re-think they way they spend money and take care of their own and save the American taxpayer lots of money in the process and still get a greater "bang for the buck."

I think Mr. Harbour would agree...off the record of course.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
2/22 Tell DM to find out what type SCBAs he has; check web for
local dealer; they may be able to do a train the trainer class
for him.

Past vol. chief in NJ

2/22 Looks like I've gone from "It's cold so I better chop s'more pallets"
("Borrowed" from behind Harbor Freight & Lowes) to "Where am
I going to put all this wood?" in about 3 days.

Jack Sevelson & Ryan Bauer of Plumas IHC showed up Monday
with a load and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation stepped up today
with 2 cords. So it looks like not only will I be warm for the rest of
this winter, but I prolly have a good start on next year.

It really amazes me the number of people who have asked "What
can I do?" in this- I had no idea I was in the hearts and minds of so
many after this long. I really appreciate the help- I'm honestly
surprised by the number of people who wanted to provide some
heat.

I thank all profusely- and my appreciation will continue every time
I load the stove.

Thanks Much-
KRS

Good enough. There are still willing helpers in the works, so don't hesitate to ask for next winter. Ab.

2/21 j. candlish,

I would assume that the NWSA offers that training. Also, in my area, as part of the EERA process, the Forest Service has been offering the training to contractors.

I would check the NWSA site or ask the local Forest Service contracting officer C.O.) or contracting officers representative (C.O.R) where you should obtain approved training.

Rogue Rivers
2/21 Ab,

Since you asked, I have a couple of suggestions for j candlish. But one of them is anatomically impossible.

The other suggestion is that if j candlish wishes to have any kind of decent working relationships with the people who will be signing his/her shift tickets in the future, he/she might want to show some respect for them. His/her post does not portray competence or a safe attitude.

Misery Whip

Could just be lack of knowledge/experience with firefighting?

2/21 I may be late,

I haven't been on in a while, so I may be a little late. I live in Chico, and would be more than happy to help Krs with warmth this winter or next. I can provide manpower only since I am car bound, I do have a saw though. ABs can pass on my e-mail to anyone, I will help in any way possible.

Pyrolysis

Thanks, I'll pass the message along. Ab.

2/21 Honor Guard video/pics -

I would bet that the folks in the Naches RD on the Okanogan/Wenatchee NF would have some pictures of the USFS Honor Guard from the 30 Mile memorial service. The FMO is Gary J<snip>, also IC of WA IMT #1.

FireBill

I passed the info on. Thanks, Ab.

2/21 I'd like to jump in and agree with NORCAL CAPT regarding the wisdom of having EMS gear on all apparatus regardless of each departments designated role. One of the key lessons learned as a result of the Cedar Fire was the value of having this type of equipment available in the event of a serious firefighter injury.

So much emphasis has was placed on pointing fingers and assigning blame for the fatality that focus on many other things that were learned from this incident have lost the attention that they deserve. These need to be brought to the forefront so that others might benefit and learn from this tragedy. At the time of the Cedar Fire, EMS equipment was not part of the regular equipment carried on Novato's Type 3 engines. Fortunately, the crew of engine 6132 had the foresight to pack EMS equipment and IV kits prior to heading down to Southern California.

Their decision to do so quite possibly prevented the Cedar burnover from being a double fatality. The availability of having this equipment allowed the other members of this crew to begin critical treatment for Captain McDonald prior to the arrival of other rescue workers. Novato further benefited by the fact that all members of their crew were paramedics giving an added edge in starting IV's and recognizing that there was a need for an ALS helicopter with a nurse to allow for rapid sequence intubation. This probably saved Captain McDonald's life.

Although it is not realistic to think that paramedics can be assigned to every wildland crew, it is probably to at least prudent to have basic EMS equipment and enough training to intervene in the event of a serious injury. While not having any background in firefighting, it is easy to imagine circumstances that would prevent medical support from reaching the scene of an accident in a timely manner.

Now that the dust is finally settling a bit with the Cedar Fire, I would hope that everyone could reexamine the other lessons from this incident including things such as medical gear, stainless steel brake lines and carbon monoxide monitors for wildland firefighters. Although nothing can change the events of that day, everyone can at least learn from what happened so that things are safer for those that follow on future wildland fires. Both the Novato and Niosh reports outline some recommendations that deserve serious attention to reduce risk as a result of what was learned from this incident.

Keep safe!
Bob Rucker

Novato Report (large pdf file)
Niosh Report

2/21 Readers,

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation (Vicki) is in need of photos and/or video footage of the Forest Service Honor Guard as soon as possible. If anyone has some, please call Burk at the Foundation at (208) 336-2996 to make arrangements to get 'em to them. Vicki is out sick today. Send her some LOVE. We need her healthy and doing her good work.

Thanks,

Ab.

2/21 RJM and all,

I believe the NPS got approval to train for INSIDE structure
firefighting because they 1. are generally isolated and outside of any
fire protection district boundaries, 2. have responsibility for many
buildings including administrative and motels/lodges/stores/restaurants
etc. inside the park boundaries. Think about Yellowstone or Glacier or
Crater Lake, what are the response times from local communities if there is
a fire or accident.

The Rangers are generally the ones who would respond to a structure
incident with appropriate training and equipment, because they are
responsible for public safety in the parks.

The Forest Service has always had the OK to attack structure fires from the
outside of the structure, and to assist other agencies in structure
firefighting when there is a threat to the wildland or under mutual aid
agreements. As far as I know many Forests have SCBA training and use them
when responding to vehicle fires and structure fires.

I don't know where the FS is not providing training to handle other than
wildland incidents. I received this type of training from day one on an
engine in 1976 and have trained my firefighters to safely work on these
incidents ever since. We worked with local city fire departments and cross
trained with them on, structure, vehicle, propane, hazmat incidents and
vehicle accident extrication so we could safely respond and help until
higher trained crews arrived. We help the city guys with wildland training
as well.

Of course the head shed geeks in D.C. and Boise don't support us being
classified as firefighters or being paid as such. Sorry to say that is an
issue that will remain with us until long after I am out of the business.

Regardless of that it is our best interest and our responsibility to train
our Foresters, Forestry Technicians, 401 Biologists and Range Technicians
to safely deal with these incidents within our agency guidelines and to
work with our friends in congress and the FWFSA to change the rules so we
can recognize federal firefighters for what they are, dedicated fire
service professionals.

Backburnfs

2/21 Quality high-res images are needed by Audubon Magazine. Anybody have any or know where Audubon could get some? Ab.

Hi,

I'm interested in some of the Biscuit Fire photos on your website for a story in
Audubon Magazine. Are there high-res (300 dpi at 8x10) images available?
Please let me know.

thanks,
Kim
Photo Editor
Audubon

2/21 Any updates on Steve Burns, the Dechutes NF firefighter injured in TX?

Foxfire
2/21 Lobotomy

I would appreciate it if you did ask that at the
meeting in Reno next week. Thanks for the concern and
I hope you can accomplish what we can't.

DM
2/21 Ab (as always, in my non professional, outsider opinion)

NORCAL CAPT seems to be right on line. Listening to the scanner CNF seems to take on MVAs, assist MVU on medicals, respond to structures; but likely to protect exposures and brush.

Have heard them dispatched to assist with extended CPR, car fires, structures.

NPS does all, trained for it. Why not USFS? (Let me guess, the troops are anything but firefighters, in the eyes of the beancounters.) NPS rangers are not "firefighters" as primary job either, but they have Red Cards and structural quals also.

Looking at the WILDCAD it also appears that various other USFS units respond to MVAs.

Guess I just do not understand all the underlying politics. I was thought 50+ years ago, by the Fire Captain who got me interested in the fire service, if you are ever in any kind of situation "call the fire Department".

I realize a lot of people have had nothing but wildland training, it might scare them to tackle other situations. As NORCAL CAPT implies you gotta handle it all. The service should provide the training.

Most of the crews I spoke with during the Cedar Fire were metro, not wildland but they were doing wildland work. Every engine I saw was rigged for "bump and run" and self defense. That is WUI/wildland tactics, not urban; but they were rigged.

Hoping that the issues can be resolved so that any qualified firefighter can work any type of incident. Also hoping that the beancounters will fund the fire service for what thy have to do; year round.

praying for rain here in SoCAL.

RJM
2/21 All,

Here are 4 papers written in 1991 (pdf file) about the growing interface responsibilities,
changing wildland firefighter roles and mutual aid.  I understand that one of the co-authors
is currently the Special Assistant to Chief Dale Bosworth.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FACTORS INFLUENCING WILDLAND/URBAN INTERFACE EMERGENCY RESPONSES
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams

Introduction. The wildland firefighters' Job is changing, due in large measure to problems associated with the wildland/urban interface. More development is occurring at the edge of forest boundaries, on tracts of private land within forest boundaries, and in metropolitan areas within easy drives of the forest. There are more residents, more tourists, and increased values at risk. Wildland firefighters are increasingly encountering structural fires and other non-wildland fire emergency assistance situations. Historically, it has been common practice for wildland firefighters in the USDA Forest Service to respond to reported structural fires, vehicle fires, vehicle accidents, and other situations where. emergency assistance is required. However, the frequency of these situations is increasing as interface pressures intensify. There are concerns that wildland fire fighting resources are being committed to structural protection at the expense of wildland resources. Moreover, managers, crews, and cooperators are concerned whether their wildland training and equipment adequately prepare them to deal with the increasing and varied emergency response situations they now face.

Questions have also been raised that perhaps it is the complex set of cooperative and mutual aid agreements with State and local fire and emergency response organizations that are placing personnel in non-wildland fire situations. Do the agreements have explicit provisions or create informal expectations that wildland organizations will move beyond their traditional wildland fire fighting role?

These concerns, highlighted by the serious interface fire events of recent years, led the Forest Service to undertake a. policy analysis examining these issues. The study examined agency policy and the actions Forests have taken, or anticipate will be taken, to respond, equip and train in the areas of structural fire, search and rescue, emergency medical assistance, and hazardous materials. <etc>

MUTUAL AID IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE: THE SOLUTION OR THE PROBLEM?
by Hanna J. Cortner
Abstract. In response to the wildland/urban fire interface, many cooperative activities involving both wildland and structural fire organizations have occurred. Drawing from a policy analysis study conducted by the USDA Forest Service, the paper discusses the role of mutual aid and cooperative activities in solving interface problems. Generally, most participants in cooperative agreements see more benefits than costs to agreements. Nevertheless, improvements can be made to remove inequities, reduce exposure to situations that pose risks, and ensure that mutual aid and other forms of cooperative arrangements do not create more interface problems than they solve.

THE CHANGING ROLE OF THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER
by Hanna J. Cortner, Robert M. Swinford, Michael R. Williams
Abstract. Increasing human presence in wildland areas is changing the traditional role of the wildland firefighter. Wildland fire crews are being exposed to more non-wildland fire emergencies, including structural fire, search and rescue, medical assists, and hazardous materials incidents. This paper reports on a policy analysis done by one wildland agency, the USDA Forest Service, that gathered information from field-level. employees and agency cooperators about the scope and magnitude of these types of emergency responses. While no one wanted the Forest Service to become a full-fledged structural fire department or an all-risk emergency responder, several issues that need addressing were identified. They include: training and equipment requirements, accounting and compensation procedures, and cooperative agreements and activities with public safety organizations and the development community.

RESOURCES OR STRUCTURES: FIRE SUPPRESSION PRIORITIES IN THE WILDLAND-URBAN INTERFACE
by Hanna J. Cortner and Ted Lorensen
Abstract. The paper explores the issue of fire suppression priorities in the wildland-urban interface. Tradeoffs between natural resources and structures can occur in two instances: single fire incidents where the presence of structures may influence decisions about what strategies and tactics to use; and multiple fire incidents where resources are sent to the fires where structures are threatened. The entire set of fire planning, analysis, and operational procedures leads to the determination of fire suppression priorities as life, property, and then natural resources. Likewise, social and behavioral factors tip fire suppression priorities toward structures. Options to deal with the threat to resources and the potential resource losses being created by growth of the wildland-urban interface range from maintaining the status quo to reordering suppression priorities.

2/21 Quotes from official Forest Service documents and the quest for ODF
portal-to-portal pay:

> Policy Implications of Large Fire Management: A Strategic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs

"For example, on the Kirk Complex, State and local employees were paid based on a
“Portal to Portal” concept. That is, they are paid from the time they leave their official
station to the time they return. Their hourly rates are also more – about $42/hour for
State and local fire employees compared to about $24/hour for a Federal employee. A
typical shift length for a Federal employee was 14 hours; 24 hours for a nonfederal
employee. In terms of costs to the fire, this translates into about $1,006 per shift for the
State and local employee and $360 per shift for the Federal employee. Clearly, this
creates an issue of morale. Working side by side, one would expect equal pay for equal
work. This inequity must be corrected."

You'd be amazed to see the people who signed that document and the positions they now occupy in the federal government.

Rogue Rivers

2/21 Mellie & Tom,

I found it over on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center. Here is a link to the main page :

www.wildfirelessons.net


The document is located here:

www.myfirecommunity.net/documents/Thoughts_and_Sayings.doc

peace,

sting

2/21 Re SCBAs

I'm sure this is blasphemous but you might want to check with your local BLM counterparts in NorCal. Nameless people tried to take the SCBAs off of CA BLM's rigs in 2004ish and the BLM (up the ranks in CA) fought for the right to give the guys on the ground the equipment they need. Part of the negotiations with Boise led to standardized statewide training including CDs and checklists and stuff on SCBAs. I don't have details but the Ops guys out there do. Do that interagency thing you do so well :-)

Use what you have to stay safe,
BLMgirl

2/21 Mornin':

Do yall do safety training? I'm a wildfire helicopter pilot turned water tender
operator and the forest circus tells me I have to have 8 hours safety training.
They also gave me your company name as a possible source for the training.

Thanks.
j candlish

Readers, any suggestions for j candlish? Ab.

2/21 re: is it 1958 or 2006?

The neat thing about time is the way it comes in cycles. Get to the end of the week, and look, it's Monday again. Save your old calendars - just write in the current year when the days line up right again.

In the mid-50's the push was to actually get rid of the Fire Control series, so the agency firefighters could be classified as forestry and range techs. The reason? Fire managers were losing their good people because the career ladder was so short.

In the 60's, the rest of the country complained about California hotshot crews using the camp title "superintendent" out on the fireline, just the way people whine about today's collar brass. (Helpful hint: those aren't really bugles on the collar, it's a cluster of toilet plungers. The more you have, the more cr*p you get to deal with.)

Is it surprising that SCBAs sit in unopened boxes inside a locked chicken-wire cache? No. The same was probably true of the nomex shirts and fire shelters that first showed up. (When I first got on in the 80's, I heard that airpaks were for sissies anyway. Then I learned that old smoke-eaters never really get old. One look at an open casket funeral tells why they die in their fifties.)

vfd cap'n
2/21 Here are two website you can bookmark if you're interested in following breaking bird flu articles around the world. New articles come out every 5 minutes.

www.flutrackers.com/forum/

www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Bird%20Flu

Bird flu (H5N1) may not seem to be a problem in the United States yet, but it is present in birds in Africa, the Middle East and Europe now and in humans in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India Asia and Southeast Asia.  The virus could easily go pandemic, efficiently infecting humans around the world if it changes genetically to acquire a few more "polymorphisms" (genetic variations). It will have that opportunity in Europe over the next few weeks (or months) to pick up the genetic changes.  When migrating birds return from Africa next week, recombination (sharing of genes) can occur in European pigs if they become co-infected with H5N1 while already carrying H1N1 (the 1918 pandemic strain).

Mellie

My friends, please prepare. Doesn't have to be elaborate, as Striker said on the Flu Watchout page. Consider it an insurance policy for your family, if nothing else:
beans,
rice,
oil (polyunsaturated oil, or lard -keeps without refrigeration, good for flavor),
spices,
canned tomatoes, sauce or puree (contain vitamin C),
daily multivitamin & vitamin C supplement
whatever else you like to eat

2/20 re SCBA

Homey

Good ideas but the problem is we don't have any
local fire dept. within 2 hours of our stations, and
training cost money so you can see where that argument
will go. The forest says every year that it is going
to set up the training then doesn't give it because of
the budget. I would train my crews if I actually got
trained myself but until then the equipment stays in
the boxes in my cache.

DM

2/20 Re: Changes within the Forest Service

www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/fire/hg.shtml

Gizmo
2/20 NORCAL CAPT,

Hear, Hear!! Well said! 2006 bears little resemblance to 1958 much less 1906...
100 years.. Gifford and the fella's did a great job getting the FS off of the ground...
but times have changed...

Yactak
2/20 DM,

Money spent for safety is the best expenditure you could ever make within the
federal government. The second best expenditure would be for your forest to
spend some money and train on those "anchor weights".

If safety equipment has been sitting in boxes due to lack of training, that is a
problem that needs to be corrected. Someone or a few people saw that SCBAs
or turnouts were needed and went through the process to obtain it.

I'll ask the Chair of the R-5 engine captains group about your concerns when I
am in Reno next week.

Lobotomy
2/20 I spoke with Krs at around 1900 tonight.  He let me know that Jack and Ryan from the Plumas Hotshots had come by with a good truckload of wood to fill the immediate need.  I'll pass on anymore as I hear it.  OA.
2/20 Evidently the mission is on to get some wood to Krs today. Heating in winter and cooling in summer are big expenses for him. Maybe we could also help with some donations for air conditioning this summer.

Hopefully OA will have a report later.

Thanks to all who volunteered to come from Idaho, Reno, etc with a load of wood.

Ab.

2/20 Does anyone see the Liaison Officer ICS position being used more now and in
the future? Last year, I was seeing the position in some Unable To Fill
lists and ran into a few people who had been doing some of the training.
Right now, there aren't many Type 1 teams traveling with the position. What
do you know about what might happen with this position?

Still Out There As An AD
2/20 Class C Sagebrush Faller....

Portal to portal pay is the first thing that comes to mind.

viejo

2/20 viejo,

Forest Service personnel that engage in wildland fire and all risk assignments are
NOT recognized as firefighters! We are Forestry Technicians and Forestry Aids!

OK, you may argue that we get firefighter retirement, but I don't know of many
that get kicked out at 57 years old that do not have to get another job.

So, are these the benefits of being 'firemen' that you refer to?

BB
2/20 Ab,

Any idea what length firewood Krs uses? I've been mulling over the thought of taking a load to him. My stuff is about 17-18" and I have some split from two seasons ago or some in rounds from last summer though I imagine he'd need it split. Its about 600 miles down there and I could take about 3/4 cord or so; if I stop in Reno and get lucky I could pay for the trip. If I'm not lucky, well, so it goes.

Tom

Check the post above. I think some wood is on the way. Hopefully OA will tell us if more is needed. Thanks, Ab.

2/20 Hi Ab,

I am sorry Albatross, but I feel you are off base here. If you want to stay behind in times then please feel free. I have been in the fire service as long as you have, and I am sure we have had the same complaints a time or two, but what you are saying is wrong. I am a strong believer that the forest service is way behind in times. Yes, fire training for wildland is top notch but for what we are facing with all risk, its so far behind that it's dangerous. I agree there.

When you have collar brass as one of the topics of your discussion, that's unbelievable. What I figured I would have heard from an FMO is, yes, we need to have the training and be ready for anything. Maybe all you want to do is wildland, but when we keep hearing about this bird flu and more terror attacks on the USA, who in the h*ll are they gonna call, FMO? You and me!

I am sorry if I sound harsh here, but its 2006 not 1958. Lassie is dead and so is Smokey; we need to remember them but, hey, we are in a war overseas and another one here at home. Do you really think that if all these possibilities everyone keeps talking about happen, that the municipal folks can handle it all? WRONG. They cant because they will be tapped in just under a few minutes.

Now, I hope that you are not taking this as an argument. I am just trying to help educate you on what is happening outside of your district. In region 5, well, all the other regions as well, we all have interface problems, right? Who is responsible for them -- US or the Municipal folks? I bet you say the red trucks, right? Well, in a court of law even if you say it's not in our mission, too bad. 'Cause your truck says FIRE on it, Mr FMO, you're guilty as charged and you've lost the lawsuit or, even worse, going to jail for misrepresentation as a fire dept. The public does not know the difference between Red, White, purple ,brown, Yellow and even GREEN fire engines. All they know is FIRE means help and they need it.

You said there's not a place to carry all the gear on the engine. I agree it's alot of stuff and there is not always room for everything, but EMS gear should be standard for all fire rigs. "What about your folks on the engine?" Suppose they get hurt. Are you going to wait for the volunteers? I did not think so!

Now that I am sure I have pissed a few people off, I will apologize for that. SORRY. I hope that you Albatross, you can understand that we are an AGENCY, not just individuals that hate California's ways of firefighting. Out here in Cali we do have the need to go outside of the mission and, well, maybe it's wrong, so why not help us out and ask for the training that we need to meet our needs out here. Don't just sit back watch us try to move forward while you are an anchor. That goes for all of you out there that think we are those dang R5 guys. Remember R5 started the ICS and we also started the Air tanker program so everything in R5 ain't that bad, LOL!

Thanks for your time and if you have to comment please feel free, which I know most will.
Just to say that I am all for us becoming an organized fire service. TRAINING and EDUCATION is key for all of us nation wide.

NORCAL CAPT

2/20 Mellie,

"Fires give the test just ahead of the lesson"

Don't know the origin and I can't remember where I got it many years ago
but it's 3 pages of great, thought provoking stuff. I've used many of the
sayings for safety briefings over the years.

Tom

2/19 DM,

You stated that you have worked for 3 seasons and are still not familiar with the SCBA that are on your engine. Instead of waiting for the forest to put on the training, why not take the initiative to create the training opportunities? How about taking 1-2 training day(s) every month and setting up training sessions with the local fire dept. Have them teach you about vehicle fires, scba usage etc. and you teach them about wildfire tactics, ICS or whatever . This can also go along way at building interagency cohesion.

I do agree that we should not put people at risk when they are not properly trained or equipped.

Stay safe,
Homey
2/19 Ab,

We have an outstanding fire academy program including wildland. How can
we add College of the Siskiyous to your training site?

Dennis DeRoss
Dean, Career & Technical Education
College of the Siskiyous

Welcome, Dennis. I added it to the Two Year College List. Ab.

2/19 Hey Viejo,

What benefits?

Class C Sagebrush Faller
2/19 Old Fire Guy, 6, Pulaski, AZ Trailblazer, Original Ab...

What's that old fire saying about firefighting lessons... something like
"delivery of the lesson and the test in fire are often simultaneous?
I looked on the  quotes to live by page and didn't see the exact quote...
Original Ab, did you tell me that years ago?

Mellie

2/19 6,

Your confusion about the newly adopted doctrine is understandable. I believe we are poised on the threshold of an interesting period. As I read it, doctrine is intended to be an umbrella philosophy that will shape all of the institutional changes that will follow in the coming years. I would be surprised if our senior leaders are not grappling with your question right now. My SA tells me this will be a huge task, maybe one of the biggest the United States Forest Service has ever faced. It will take time to develop an action plan, and for the information and effects to trickle downhill.

My guess is that doctrine will eventually change the shape and size of our organization. In theory, by placing a new emphasis on culture and error resilience, we will eventually create a safer and more efficient wildland firefighting workforce. Figuring out which firefighter decisions are still bound by unbreakable rules, and which are subject to individual discretion, is likely to generate fierce controversy, and will take some time to sort out.

In the end, our leaders will need to clearly communicate “the new way”, whatever that is determined to be, to all wildland firefighters before it can produce the desired effect. Our interagency partners will need to understand our “new way” of doing business as well.

Many of us look forward to going back to the good old days when commander’s intent and individual discretion were the norm. I hope we succeed. And I hope it doesn’t take too long for doctrine to “trickle downhill”, but my hunch is that it will take at least several years to reach saturation among the troops.

Other aspects of doctrine will be on display immediately. Now that the new doctrine is official, it will be interesting to see how we deal with future burnovers/fatalities. If our agency behaves like a High Reliability Organization instead of looking for scapegoats, doctrine will get a boost. But if we have another Cramer-type result, doctrine will be seen by the troops as just another government feel-good initiative.

Lobotomy,

Good stuff lately. My assessment is that the 2004 "Feedback Control - Expectation Management Audit Controls" paper that you referenced is outdated, and that it will need to be altered in light of the development of doctrine which would seem to be in conflict with parts of the paper. Hopefully new doctrine trumps old audit controls.

Check out the 2005 Human Performance in FAM paper on the doctrine site. I heard recently that the WO is working on a new Human Performance AD position and associated issues right now. As I read it, this position will be huge when it comes to implementing doctrinal change. Anybody know more about this?

Abs & all,

I’ve been rereading some of the recent posts concerning doctrine on They Said, and it occurred to me that this website is an important example of what doctrine is all about. For many of us, if you want to hear the unvarnished truth, if you want to know what is happening in the wildland fire world today, if you need support or want to share support, or if you just want to blow off steam, this website has become the safety valve, nerve center, bulletin board and debating society for the wildland fire community. Our government institutions could learn a thing or two from the people who host this site.

A small selection of recent posts provide great examples of doctrinal thinking. Krs needs wood? Everyone in They Said land knows about Krs and his incredibly difficult situation. Boom, the wildland fire community figures out how to make it happen now. Kudos to Shari, Ken, Dan, & all who are helping Krs.

Rich Hawkins is fighting fire with both hands and besieged by hordes of press after standing tall and taking responsibility for a highly publicized escaped prescribed fire, yet he finds time to write They Said to elaborate on a statement he made to the press. Guys like Rich make you proud of this community; his is the kind of Leadership we need more of. His post is also a great statement about the Leadership of the Abs & They Said.

Mike Lohrey wants to get out a press release on NIMO jobs out to as wide a wildland fire audience as possible. Send it to They Said, problem solved.

In a fine example of sharing cutting-edge wildland fire scientific data internationally, Mollysboy posts an Australian report that indicates wildfires may significantly increase in some areas due to global warming.

Maybe Uncle Sugar should be subsidizing the Abs & They Said for fulfilling a basic doctrinal need; you provide a medium for honest, open, and timely communications.

Honest and open communications seem to be in short supply these days. Just watch the news.

If you want to see how faulty organizational communications can negatively affect safety, check out the Columbia Accident Investigation Board Report. I found many striking similarities between the problems that NASA and the Forest Service have faced during the past few decades. I warn you, this report is large but it contains a great deal of wisdom. Here’s the link:
www.nasa.gov/columbia/home/CAIB_Vol1.html

I just finished reading an excellent book entitled “Apollo, Challenger, Columbia; The Decline of the Space Program: A Study in Organizational Communication” by Philip K Tompkins. Dr. Tompkins has worked closely with NASA since the 1960’s and analyzes the gradual decline of NASA’s ability to operate within acceptable safety margins. Dr. Tompkins makes an excellent case that organizations are constituted by communication, and that many of the problems faced by organizations like ours can be improved by promoting open and honest communications.

On the flip side, here are some examples of the opposite of open and honest communications:

NASA Becoming More Politicized, Critics Contend
www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/13856564.htm

And this lovely gem:

Federal Officials Throw Gasoline on OSU Forestry Fire
www.oregonlive.com/editorials

And so it goes.

Misery Whip

Misery Whip, thanks for the kind words. We know we fill a need. We work hard at doing our share, but so does each contributor that makes this community what it is. Thanks to all. Ab.

2/19 Ab:

Attached is an interesting briefing paper with interpretive photos on the
WUI treatments which made it safe for firefighters to protect the structures,
and stopped the running crown fire. I would only add that the thinning by
the Arizona State Land Department and Bray Creek Ranch, LLC,
pursuant to a grant, also helped.

All is quiet now.

Mike J.

Thanks for resending that Mike.
Readers, here's the briefing paper on  fuel treatments that impacted fire behavior on the February Fire in AZ. There art some excellent instructive photos in this.

This is a 60K msword doc that will download if you click this link:  fuel treatment February Fire (60K doc file) Ab.

2/19 Re: Update on Sponsors and Co-Sponsors of H.R. 408. New Co-Sponsor added on Valentines Day.

Keep spreading the word and speaking with your elected officials. 13% of the House of Representatives has now sponsored/cosponsored the Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005. Many other representatives have expressed their support. All it takes is 50% plus one vote to send the bill to the Senate.

Also, check out the new and improved FWFSA website for more information and a much easier process for joining.

Sponsor:
Rep Pombo, Richard W. [CA-11] - 1/26/2005

Co-Sponsors:
	Rep Honda, Michael [CA-15] -1/26/05       Rep Cunningham, (Duke) [CA-50] -1/26/05
	Rep Otter, C.L.(Butch) [ID-1] -1/26/05    Rep Simpson, Michael [ID-2] -1/26/05
	Rep Napolitano, Grace [CA-38] -1/26/05    Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] -1/26/05
	Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] -2/1/05            Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] -2/1/05
	Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] -2/8/05            Rep Weldon, Curt [PA-7] -2/8/05
	Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] -2/8/05          Rep Simmons, Rob [CT-2] -2/9/05
	Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] -3/1/05          Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] -3/1/05
	Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] -3/8/05           Rep Gallegly, Elton [CA-24] -4/6/05
	Rep Michaud, Michael [ME-2] -4/12/05      Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] -4/20/05
	Rep Tauscher, Ellen [CA-10] -4/20/05      Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] -4/21/05
	Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] -5/24/05      Rep Hayworth, J. D. [AZ-5] -5/24/05
	Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] -6/15/05      Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] -6/16/05
	Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] -6/16/05           Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] -6/16/05
	Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] -6/22/05            Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] -6/22/05
	Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] -7/13/05    Rep Gibbons, Jim [NV-2] -7/25/05
	Rep Schiff, Adam B. [CA-29] -11/15/05     Rep Lantos, Tom [CA-12] -2/14/06
FWFSA Member
2/19 Student of fire

You make some good points but what about the forest in R5 that have very little urban interface and we still have to carry these anchor weights (aka SCBAs). I don't understand why the Forest Service in some of these areas even put out the money for SCBAs and turnouts when we could spend that money more wisely. I don't think going out one day a year and putting out a simulated car fire is proper training. I'm going on my third season on a forest in NW Cali and we spent all this money on gear and we still haven't had a training on how to use it. So it still sits in the boxes and we spend thousands every season getting everything tested (equipment and People) but we still don't use it. I'll guarantee that structure firefighters get more than one day of training on cars fires. I don't think every forest in R5 needs to carry all this expensive gear because it never gets used. I think alot of it is people not wanting to be one-up'd by their counter parts down south, well if their doing it we have to.

I just think some of our leaders need to realize that we are wildland firefighters and thats it. We don't need to put our people at further risk, especially when they aren't properly trained.

Still in R5
DM

2/18 Onelick, Dan, the Ken(s), Kent (and all…)

Thanks for this good start. There is a small jag of wood being dropped off to Krs Wednesday – enough to get him through a few days, until we can get a good load delivered. Ken K. found a couple of firewood sellers in the Chico area. The cost range is about standard for this part of the year, but split up between us is completely doable. For simplicity sake, those wishing to pitch in can send a bit ‘o cash to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation tagged as “Wood for Krs Evans.” That way, those who need it can use the donation as a tax write-off. I’ll coordinate with Vicky Minor to get the money to Krs so he can pay the woodman. If somebody else comes up with a good load of wood before that, all the better, Krs can use the $ for parts for the new trike he’s building to get himself around town economically.

Wildland Firefighter Foundation
“Wood for Krs Evans”
2049 Airport Way.
Boise, ID 83705

I’m heading to the east coast until midweek, but will be available via cell or email. Ab has both if anyone has an epiphany. Once we get this little project wrapped up we can turn our attention to world peace.

Thanks
Shari
2/18 Toy Hose Roller Testers Needed!

This past winter I've been working on a 3/4" hose roller prototype-
Which I think I finally have close to completion. I've identified a
few things I want to change for the production model, but they're all
aesthetic. What I need is some real world testing, since I only have
one piece of hose. Any of you guys up for it?

You can see it here: http://crew13.com/hoseroller.htm Once you've had
a look & want to test it, hit the 'send mail' link & I'll take the
first 10. Test it, fill out a small online form when you're done, and
you get to keep it with my thanks.

I'm pretty sure this version is fairly bomber, but I know the folks we
work with, so if it can be broken I'd like to find out now so I can
build a better one before the season hits.

Thanks to all-
KRS

2/18 Old Fire Guy,

You said,

"My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of 'where's the leadership' we have heard following the tragedies since 1994." You also said, "...we need to ensure we operate within our authority."

I agree that training and equipment are important. I also agree that authority is needed. We have all of these in my area.

Foundational Doctrine answers that question and others you ask.

Since the late 1980's, several of the Southern California forests began equipping and training to put out or prevent our traditional ignition sources from extending into the wildland (houses, vehicles, dumps, and traffic collisions). The corner stone of this decision was based upon "Operational Environment" and it was approved by Line Officers (The people who HAVE authority) far before Foundational Doctrine was ever heard of. Was it covered by the "mission"?... it depends how you interpret "Caring for the Land, Serving People"... aka Commanders Intent.

Many urbanized forests (aka WUI areas) do not have the same traditional ignition sources as some forests. In those forests, the traditional ignition sources may be lightning, campfires, or logging operations. People concentrate on mitigating those ignition sources. Likewise, some urbanized forests concentrate on mitigating their ignition sources. They are not undergoing a "mission shift" just concentrating on the safest, most effective, and efficient way to achieve the mission.

While it may not be happening yet in your area now, as National Forests get more urbanized the mission stays the same, but the way you accomplish the mission is decided by leaders. Leaders are adaptable and open to new ideas and change. If they recognize a hazard that is re-occurring (ie vehicle fire ignition sources) they train, equip, and counter the new hazard.

Student of Fire Science

also... we still do not enter burning structures, confined spaces, or go swimming in shark infested waters. If you have people responding to structure, vehicle, and dump fires etc. without proper training and equipment (and it is needed to accomplish the "mission" in your area), step up and be a leader.... Start talking to your line officer about making things safer... All it takes is a JHA to start the ball rolling.... . If it doesn't apply to your area... great... stop bagging on us that it does apply to.

2/18 I have to agree with Old Fire Guy: our (Forest Service) training and mission is wildland fire.

On my district all we have is type 6 engines and tractor/plows. We have a hard time finding enough room for all the wildland equipment, I cant imagine carrying structural equipment/PPE and well as EMS gear. We train and work closely with our local fire depts. and the county 911 dispatchers. We all know our roles, where we overlap and our limitations. In every part of the country that I have worked, the public knows that when a green engine rolls up, we only do wildland and exterior structure protection. When we are dispatched either by the interagency dispatch or the county 911, we all know before we arrive--if structures even have the possibility of being threatened, the fire dept. is paged out as well. Unless our engines are on patrol in the right in the place the fire starts, the fire depts will usually be the first on scene in the interface. Thats their job, be close to the populated areas and protect the structures.

I dont mean to start an argument of Cali vs. the other 49 states, but California (mainly SoCal) folks need to understand that they work in a totally different environment. I am not arguing with the California FF's arguments, but I believe from most people that I have worked with, we dont always have the same concerns/arguments.

-Most of us outside of Cali dont want anything to do with structural/EMS. We compliment and support each other, but are trained and equipped differently.

-Many of us want nothing to do with brass on our collars, and would resist it if we had to wear it.

I am a district FMO with 20 years in the FS, and maybe its just the "old school" in me talking. I dont want to start another "they said" argument with our brother and sister firefighters from California, I would just like to stress that many of the arguments on this board are unique to California. I truly hope that this doesnt start an argument. I would like to hear from other non R5/ Cali. firefighters to see if I am way off base on this or not.

Ab, thanks for having place for honest, open discussion.

Albatross

2/17 Re: The Forest Service Foundational Doctrine

I was looking at all the documents on the new Forest Service Doctrine site, and I came to a paper called "Feedback Control - Expectation Management Audit Controls". It can be found at:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/firesuppression.html.

I believe the document was written in 2004 and has some contradictions to Foundational Doctrine in it. There are seven pages of questions within the document for the Regional Offices, Forests, and Districts to answer validating the implementation of Foundational Doctrine. No questions to be asked at the WO level?

Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but is seven pages of "validation" keeping it simple? Many of the items are post 30 Mile Abatements and Cramer action items that painted us into a box in the first place.

Check for yourself..... Do "Feedback Control - Expectation Management Audit Controls" and "2005 -The First Pulaski Conference" conflict with each other? and if so, why is it being used as a validation tool for the implementation of Foundational Doctrine?

My observation would be to develop an audit/validation tool that follows the six key ideas of doctrine and what the Commanders Intent is:

Mission
Roles
Operations
Leadership & Accountability
Cost Management
Risk & Risk Management

Lobotomy
2/17 Shari,

I took the liberty of taking Krs's need for firewood to the Arboristsite.com.
There are many firefighters from that area that post regularly on that site. I
don't think they know about Theysaid. I hope this helps, it's about as much
as I can do here on the East Coast.

Onelick

Hi Onelick. Glad yer still lurking. Tell those folks about theysaid! Ab.

2/17 I don't think the public cares what agency you work for or the
color of your engine... if you arrive at the scene of an emergency
in vehicle equipped with red lights and a siren and a big sign on it
that says "FIRE" I think the public can reasonably expect trained,
professional action.

If you are going to accept the benefits of firemen, you should be
expected to perform as one.

viejo
2/17 Dan,

I wish I knew some local cutters (firewood or commercial fallers) around Chico, but I don’t. Anybody out there in the close vicinity with a bit of firewood you’d be willing to let go of?

Re: Ag inspectors…Last time we went barreling across the border with firewood for Krs in our F350 nobody gave us a second look. The ag check points don’t seem to be manned these days anyway, and I swear I could be eating an orange when we stopped there in the past and they’d still ask us if we had any produce in the vehicle, and wave us through. Always seemed like a waste of tax payer money to me.

Still trying to make this thing work… Thanks for your $ offer. We’ll figure out how to do this in the next few days. Krs’ stash runs out by late next week.

Shari Downhill
2/17 Oliver et al,

There is a very critical point to be made here on what our fire mission is, and what "leadership" is..... and thank Ab we've got a great forum to debate that point.

My view on this is that leaders allowing employees to engage houses, vehicles, dumps etc., (emergency actions we are not trained for, and nor equipped for) begs for the criticism and the question of "where's the leadership" we have heard following the tragedies since 1994.

Leaders/managers that permit their troops to engage in actions where they lack quals is accepting of and promoting the "make do" attitude. However much we want to get into the mix, take action, and not be on the sidelines or spectators...... we must constrain ourselves to our training, experience, and equipment.

Where else would we draw the line? Got a dozer sitting in a vacant lot without a qualified operator? Why not ask one of the crew to jump into the driver's seat? How about a helicopter when the pilot is off duty? Accident victim with signs of internal bleeding...... where's that spleen? These examples seem ridiculous, and they are. No responsible manager would assign a crew to such a task.

But where's the line? And what are the "trigger points"? Immediate threat to life? Risk of losing a million dollar home? How about a trailer? Or the saving of 100 acres of brush?

I would not be adverse to a change in policy that accepts an expanded role. But until we accept that as part of our mission, and until we provide the training and equipment to perform safely, we need to ensure we operate within our authority. We need our leaders to have the courage to lead. And sometimes that means telling folks to disengage, no matter how unpopular that decision may be.

Old Fire Guy

2/17 Is there anyone else who is confused by the new foundational doctrine? I am reading the stuff on the internet, but still do not understand all of what they are trying to say. I like the philosophy behind it but have been confused by the following statement:

"27. Using principles requires judgment in application, while adherence to rules does not. In combination principles and rules guide our fundamental wildland fire suppression practices and behaviors, and are mutually understood at every level of command"

"Rules cover those things that senior leadership identifies as too important to leave to judgment. They neither require, nor do they benefit from interpretation or discretion."

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/genesis_and_evolution/presentations/2005_posters.ppt (powerpoint)

I can't find anywhere what the "rules" are. Are they the 10 standard fire orders, or are they all of the myriad of existing rules that have caused the situation we are currently in? Or is it somewhere between?

Any thoughts, wisdom, or knowledge out there?

Thanks, 6

2/17 Firefighter died in Australia. Sad news. Ab.
This came in from OB:

From http://cfaonline.cfa.vic.gov.au/mycfa/Show?pageId=publicShowNews&audience=PUBLIC.

This is the 2nd CFA firefighter to be lost this season...

Loss of a CFA firefighter

17/02/2006

It is with deep regret that CFA announces a volunteer firefighter today died on active duty at Barnawartha, near Wodonga, in the state's north east.

A grassfire broke out about 1.30pm and was contained about an hour later.

A female volunteer, aged 41, died after being involved in a tragic vehicle accident on the fireground.

Her family is also involved in the brigade and has been notified.

CFA CEO, Neil Bibby, said:

"While there are no words that can adequately express our grief, our deepest condolences go out to the member's family, friends and fellow brigade personnel.

"There is nothing we can say to alleviate their pain, but we will be there for them. As always, the CFA family will stand behind its members and anyone affected by this devastating loss can be assured of our full support.

"I encourage any CFA member affected by the tragedy to speak to their fellow members and use available counseling services," Mr Bibby said.

The accident is being investigated by CFA, Workcover, police and the coroner.

2/17 Oliver

Seems to me I've seen something like that in colorado papers some time or other.

Rufus

2/17 Ab...Old Fire Guy

Both of you are correct...it is happening (suppression of non wildland fires) and it appears policy is directing fire crews not to engage in any suppressive actions of vehicles, structures and dumps unless it meets certain criteria.

The fireline leadership question is... how can you allow people to work outside of the scope of their duties and be at risk personally for their actions without the legal backing of the agency? Isn't the caveat for legal liability coverage from your employer based upon performing within the scope of your assigned duties?

The agency leadership question is ...have you lost your collective minds? Imagine the front page of the local newspaper showing several wildland engines sitting idle watching an attached garage/carport go up in flames and spreading to the home.

Headline? USFS FIRE WATCHERS REPLACE LOCAL FIRE FIGHTING CREWS damage is estimated in the millions...cont. on page 3

Oliver
2/17 What a great service to support Krs with some firewood, a couple ideas come
to mind on this. Renting a UHAUL could cost as much as having a couple of
cords delivered by a local wood cutter closer to Krs's home. We would
pitch in some cash for that. Also do the California Agriculture inspectors
at the border allow firewood to pass through? I would hate for someone to
get turned around at the check point because of a bug or some other foulup.
Let me know what you decide and if we can send some $ to help out.

Dan Fiorito, Union IHC
2/17 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated.

Ab.

2/17 Contributors,

If something you send does not make it to theysaid, please resend it with a question. (Unless it's photos; I'm behind on those.) Sometimes keywords or attachments get a message tossed into the spam filter either at the server level or at our local computer level. This can occur even if the message comes from a long-time sender. (I pulled Mollysboy out of the trash just yesterday.) Original Ab and I do not have everyone white-listed on all our computers. When I'm away, I post via laptop, for example. It's definitely not as "learned up" as the Abs big wlf.com computers.

I usually tell people when I'd rather not post their message and why. Of course, to tell you I need to be able to reply to your email. If you email and expect a reply if/when your message isn't posted, make sure that you're sending from a valid e-mail addy. I have to laugh when someone's post gets filtered, Ab get flamed, and the flamer has wasted a lot  of go-juice because he or she doesn't have a valid reply email addy. Not Ab's problem...

To the "most recent person" with the bogus email addy: if you'd like, feel free to resend your post with a valid addy and we can have a dialog, if necessary. It may not be necessary; whatever you sent may be perfectly fine for posting. I don't know, as Ab doesn't have a recent message from you; it likely got filtered or you didn't hit the send button.

To chat-ers and those that network through Ab behind the scenes, thanks for sharing information with those who are looking for it. The private messages with good info provide a service to others, too. Ab.

2/17 Ab,

If Shari doesn't get enough people interested in supporting Krs, let me know. I will rent a U-Haul and haul firewood up there myself. I was on the fireline in Kentucky when Krs was injured... just a few miles away and listened to the whole incident.

I feel guilty about this accident because myself and the SOFR had been battling local fire management about the use of the 101st Airborne Division medics and airlift capability in the event of an injury just days before.... we got shut down on our suggestions and normal operating procedures out west..... It may or may not have made a difference but I would have known the best care available would have been provided..... at least ALS care.

Ken

2/17 Ab,

Maybe see if there are any R-6 Apprentices around that use this website going
down to Sacramento For the Academy --that could pick up that wood in Grants
Pass and deliver it to Chico. Just a thought.

RO

R6 Readers, please ask around to new Academy folks. Ab.

2/17 Ab,

The Forest Service website has a new section on Foundational Doctrine.www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/

Attached is an 88 kb .pdf file made by combining Chief Bosworth's cover letter and the 30 principles/beliefs of official doctrine.

vfd cap'n

At the Forest Service site, expand the top link Fire Suppression link for menus leading to all sorts of interesting reading. Ab.

2/17 Re: Leadership and Keeping Firefighters Safe

> From the Congressional Fire Services Institute, Press Release:


LEADERSHIP SAVES LIVES…SO EVERYONE GOES HOME: 18th Annual National Fire and Emergency Services Dinner and Seminars To Focus On Importance of Strong Leadership

More than 2,000 state and national homeland security leaders are expected to attend the 18th Annual National Fire and Emergency Services Dinner and Seminars on April 6th in our nation's capital. Hosted by the Congressional Fire Services Institute (CFSI), the annual tribute will draw attention to protecting our nation's first responders through strong leadership at the local, state and national level.

"Leadership involves individuals and organizations emboldened to bring about positive changes to protect and prepare our nation's first responders, said CFSI Executive Director Bill Webb. "Our overriding goal should always be protecting lives and property, while at the same time ensuring that everyone goes home safe and sound. This is the message that should drive us in our missions and keep us committed to working together."

Information about the dinner and seminars is available on the CFSI website (http://www.cfsi.org/). The seminar schedule begins the afternoon of April 5th at the Hilton Washington and runs through the following morning and afternoon on Capitol Hill. A number of national fire service leaders and Administration officials are scheduled to take part, discussing a range of issues addressing federal programs and legislation, and safety and education initiatives.

The leadership of the Congressional Fire Services Caucus will continue the tradition of serving as honorary chairmen of the dinner, including Senator Joe Biden, Senator John McCain, Senator Paul Sarbanes, Senator Mike DeWine, Congressman Curt Weldon, Congressman Steny Hoyer, Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, and Congressman Rob Andrews. CFSI will pay special tribute to Senator Paul Sarbanes, who announced his retirement effective at the end of this year. One of the strongest advocates for our nation's fire service in the history of Congress, Senator Sarbanes wrote the legislation that created the United States Fire Administration and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation.

For current information about the CFSI dinner and seminars, continue to visit the CFSI website or contact CFSI at (T) 202-371-1277 or (email) cfsi@cfsi.org.

How many land managers, wildland fire manage