NIFC Public Affairs has put out a 23-page Talking Points document. What
caught our eye was the first two sections devoted to the AD pay plan issues.

But there are other items of interest addressed, including preparedness.

Needless to say, we don't feel the 2 Talking Points on the AD issue address
the core problems, but they sure do put the government's efforts in a
positive light!! Not a surprise though. ADFA plans to respond with a
logical analysis. We will undoubtedly utilize legislative assistance on the
matter (unfortunately this seems to be the only way to get a response).

We've got a link to the Talking Points document on our web page at
www.adfirefighter.org or perhaps Ab you could place a link to the
attached here: Wildland Fire Talking Points (pdf file)

Comments welcome as usual (click name below)

Hugh Carson
Chair, AD Firefighters Association

<cracking up> <rolling on floor> Are you mocking Mellie???

You said... "You guys rock. Mellie too. <batting her eyes, blushing, shucks, gawrsh>"

Correction, if it was really Mellie you were characterizing, it woulda been <batting eyes> <blushing> (Note the closed carrots between attributes. Mellie's grammar queen and analytical coding characteristics carry over even to the fire internet...

Mellie has never assumed a <gawrsh> attitude that I know of. After all, under that Mellie facade there is a hotshot's ego (of the best sort). By that, I mean Mellie is a can-do perfectionist but doesn't need to take the personal credit -- so long as the job gets done impeccably...

Now Mellie has been known to throw in a <little madonna smile> from time to time, among other things...

Mellie

I think that some people have hit the issue right on the head. There is a huge amount of acreage being burned but there is no real knowledge in the media of the budget being cut out. I think that if the public were able to see what is going on, I think that they may have something to say. The federal agencies that are fighting all these fires, and see a need for more funding, should be putting it out to the media with facts.

We should not be bumping the numbers up in order to receive EXCESS funding the way that the higher ups are playing down the money issue by saying that we are doing fine, though. We should hold up our integrity and respect towards the public and present an honest appraisal.

That is all I can say right now.

6thyrrookie

If you can get the data, I can crunch it and display it any which way you want.

Still Out There as an AD

Cramer Fire. Ab.

HAW HAW... Ab.

Thanks for putting some numbers on my speculations. I
had kind of an image in my head, and I'm not sure how
to go about putting numbers to it, but it might be
enlightening (and you did say you'd never met a
statistic you didn't like...). Okay, picture a bar
chart, like they use for rainfall. Put the months on
the horizontal axis, with December in the middle, and
then put total firefighter hours on assignment,
nationwide or for a given region, on the vertical
axis. For Most years, there's going to be dip in the
center of the graph; not to zero, but not far from it.
Anecdotally, I think that this year the dip was not
nearly as low as usual, meaning that the off season
was less off than it's been in quite a while. So I'm
thinking not so much of year-to-date as 'typical
end-of-season' to 'typical beginning-of-season'. The
year-to-date numbers are scary, though.

Nerd on the Fireline

"Senators fear cuts will harm ability to fight Southwest wildfires"
www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060329-1311-wst-southwestwildfirebudget.html

Condolences... Could you please let us know about services? Ab.

Just to let ya know I do love my job and I like working where I work. The problem I have is we should be getting better pay and benefits, if the old blood ideas were to realize that yeah back in 1972 when they started $1.89 and hour was an ok wage. At that wage you could make with overtime at say 400 hours a year $5063 before taxes. Its 34 years later and $5063 would not buy a cheap car! Ok I might have blown off course here a bit, but I get rattled about our pay!

The thing I do want to say is this. It is 2006: 20 years ago a CDF FC made what I make now hourly, but they made more 'cause the 72 hour shift. So why do you think they have got their big pay raises? I will tell ya, alot of there folks got tired of being broke, retention problems, a higher tax base due to more people and business, which creates a higher call volume, and I figure most of all they got fed up with the gas station attendant wages, and fought the state!

I am a member of the FWFSA Ab, just so your comment is answered! I am trying to help out by getting others to join! My problem is this I talk to folks and hear them say yeah right its not ever going to happen, a pay raise huh!!! Even R5 fire and aviation officer Ray Q said its not going to happen anywhere in the near future, maybe 20 or 30 years long after I retire he said. So with attitudes like that how do you ask them to help us fight for what's right?

So next time when you have the urge to tell folks what they should do, THINK before you speak. I have done all the CDF stuff, I have joined FWFSA, and most of all I have cared what is going to happen to my future. No matter what the agencies say about retention or OPM says about it, it does have a major impact on the USFS, BLM, USFWS, BIA, and the PARK SERVICE. They want me to tell my employees how beautiful it is to work here and they pay you to look at the trees and smell the fresh air, AGHH its all cr*p. Just ask a seasonal FF here in CA if they would like to make more money and have a better schedule plus benefits and retirement as a temp, what are they going to say no I like the fresh air? NOT!!!

Have a great day guys and remember your 2 cents might just be your next pay raise.

NORCAL CAPT

HAW HAW. Excellent closing one liner!!! Ab.

Graveside services will be held for Joe Ely on Saturday, April 8, at 11
a.m. at the Glen Oaks Memorial Park, in Chico, (corner of Hegan Lane and
Midway). There will be a reception afterwards (I don't know the location).

Denny Bungarz (retired MNF FMO & Glenn County Supervisor) has set up the
"Joe Ely Memorial Fund" to relocate and maintain the Air Tanker Plaque at
the Willows Airport. Contributions in Joe's memory can be sent to

The Joe Ely Memorial Fund
Glenn County Department of Finance
516 W. Sycamore Street,
Willows, CA 95988.

A couple pics attached

TC

Joe Ely at Rattlesnake Memorial Dedication
Plaque he was reading

Thanks,
Karen

Thanks, Karen.
Readers, you may contribute to the fund by sending a tax-deductible donation made out to the Paul Gleason Wildland Fire Scholarship Fund to:

CSU Foundation
P.O. Box 1870
Fort Collins, CO 80522

Ab note: Here's the info on the scholarship available via dropdown menu (Forest, Rangeland and Watershed Stewardship) on the bottom of this page: http://taurus.cnr.colostate.edu/apps/scholarship/index.cfm
Let's make this an ongoing tribute to Paul.

The Paul Gleason Wildland Fire Scholarship

Description of Scholarship:
The Paul Gleason Wildland Fire Scholarship was established in memory of Paul. Paul was a highly skilled and respected wildland firefighter who dedicated his 38 year field career to improving firefighting safety for his many colleagues. An expert in firefighting operations, fire behavior, and fire ecology, he worked on over 500 wildland and prescribed fires throughout the United States. In doing so, Paul supervised hotshot crews for over 20 years, co-pioneered sawyer safety training for firefighters and developed the Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes and Safety Zones (LCES) safety concept now taught to all wild land firefighters. He was renowned for his engaging style as an instructor. After mandatory firefighter retirement at age 55 in 2001, Paul served at Colorado State University as a well-loved adjunct Professor of Fire Science until his untimely death in 2003. A true leader and mentor to thousands of people, Paul always identified first with the "ground-pounder" and taught that every firefighter on the line has a personal responsibility for his or her own safety by becoming a "student of fire".

Criteria of Scholarship:
Recipient must be an undergraduate student in the Department of Forest, Rangeland and Watershed Stewardship. Recipient must maintain a GPA of at least 2.5. Recipient must demonstrate an interest and background in fire science, with special consideration given to an applicant who is currently a wildland firefighter or holds a firefighting qualification.

Number of Scholarships Awarded: 1
Dollar Amount of Scholarship: $1000

JE

I thought I would take this opportunity to bring folks up to date regarding the AD Firefighter Association, the progress of our initiatives, as well as offer my own take on where we need to go (a view that is hopefully pretty much aligned with the ADFA Board's vision)

The title of this e-mail message: "ADFA: A glass half empty or a glass half full?" says it all.

Depending upon the way you look at the world, ADFA has either accomplished "something" (i.e., "a glass half full") or "very little" (i.e., "a glass half empty"). Personally I've always been a "half full glass" type (though some might offer I've always been pretty full of something else!!).

So let's recount what we as an organization have done in the 3 years since we started ADFA. And we'll cover what we haven't done, since that's of great importance in what I consider a turning point in the life of this organization.

Three years. March of this year is the anniversary date of when I came back from teaching in Missoula so incensed by the 2003 rates that I threw together a web page that weekend and we had 75+ members by the next Wednesday. Lots of water under the bridge since then. A few successes, but many large challenges that remain.

OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS

• We have an organization of 295 members, of which 56 are non-retired ADs, and 239 are ADs who are retired from the fire service (federal, state, local).
• We have many "sympathetic" non-members, including ADs that do not join for whatever reason (fear of retribution, "non-joiners," do not agree with ADFA's approach, etc.). Of equal importance are the many fire management and fire operations folks throughout the country who recognize the value of the AD firefighter and support ADFA's goals.
• We have a set of Bylaws, are incorporated in the State of Idaho, are a recognized non-profit organization under IRS Code 501(c)(5), and have a legal firm that handles our (infrequent) corporate issues.
• ADFA initiated a Legislative Outreach program early last Spring in order to counter-act the 2005 AD Rate Proposal in which most positions were cut $2-$7 an hour. We feel that ADFA, along with agency folks who saw the folly of these cuts, were instrumental in the agencies' rescinding the 2005 Proposal and using the 2004 rates for 2005. ADFA has a comprehensive Legislative Web Page with copies of our correspondence as well as the names, addresses, and phone/fax numbers of the 535 US Legislators in the House and Senate and 50 State Governors.
• We have established a good relationship with Senator Larry Craig's Office in Idaho and Greg Walden's Office in Oregon, as well as the Governors' staffs in NM, PA, and MT. This is a DIRECT RESULT of the Spring 2005 Legislative Outreach Program ADFA implemented by faxing 535 US legislative Members and 50 State Governors, along with your individual, personal letters to your elected representatives. These staffs are aware of the issues, including pay inequality and non-standard treatment of ADs. ADFA has been waiting for the release of the 2006 rates to determine our course of action with the legislative representatives. Senator Craig's staff person was particularly interested in the OPM Review the agencies had requested of the AD process. To our knowledge, the OPM review was cursory at best: rather than looking at the process by which AD rates are established, OPM apparently merely reaffirmed the applicability of the 1951 AD Pay Authority, with which we strongly disagree.
• The 2006 AD Rate Schedule has modest increases for many positions, will not cut but will freeze hourly rates for others (Unit Leaders and ST Leaders), and has outrageous cuts for a few (e.g., Support Dispatcher). We feel that ADFA, in emphasizing the experience base of ADs, was responsible for grading ADs at the mid-step level 5 rather than at Level 1, which resulted in these small increases. However, a $2.50 increase is pretty slim pickings for (1) 3 years of hard work and (2) no hourly increases for several years now (the increases do not even keep up with inflation over the number of years since any type of increase was authorized).
• ADFA is pursuing access to the rating/ranking work for each AD position that was performed by the NWCG AD Position Leveling Committee and which resulted in the 2006 AD Pay Bands A-L. Through examination of this work, ADFA may be able to offer the agencies assistance in resolving positions that appear to be severely undergraded.
• For two years, ADFA has been stressing that contracting of personal services would provide a vehicle that (1) would allow the market to determine the rates, thus immediately and effectively ridding us collectively of the major item of disagreement, i.e., pay, and (2) would eliminate most if not all the various bones of contention and unequal treatment (use of cell phones, rental cars, laptops, etc - the list is endless) that create further conflict between the fire and AD communities. Region 8 of the USFS was a test bed for non-fire contracting to replace agency Katrina logistics/planning teams, and several companies currently have contracts.
• ADFA joined the National Wildfire Suppression Association (NWSA), envisioning that we and this body could be useful to one another and mutually supportive.

OUR CHALLENGES

• The agencies continue to utilize an outdated, outmoded vehicle, the 1951 AD Pay Authority, to hire supplementary emergency personnel in the 21st century. With no overtime included for ADs under this Authority, the rates are highly unequal compared to GS employees who receive true overtime. Differences in 2-week paychecks between a GS employee and an AD employee range from the several hundreds to the several thousands of dollars (a comprehensive analysis of Pay Inequality is on our web site). We have yet to meet our goal of "Fair Pay For Work Performed."
• Certain elements within the agencies are highly resistant to contracting of personal services. We believe several fire management groups including Geographic Area Coordinating Groups would like to go to this mechanism for fire, but the administrative side of the house is not buying in.
• Assisting the agencies in solving the numerous non-pay issues that each and every AD firefighter appears to encounter each and every fire season
• Maintaining a Board of Directors in a volunteer organization. Despite two e-mails to the membership about three vacant positions coming up for re-election (Vice-Chair/Chief Operating Officer, Secretary, and National Membership Coordinator), only one nomination has been received by the 3/28 due date.
• Maintaining a membership that does not get discouraged by actual or perceived lack of progress.

Alternatively, he could become active, even more active in the FWFSA. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Land Management Agency Housing Improvement Act of 1992 (aka the Ranger Fair Housing Act.)

A BILL

To improve the administration and management of public lands, National Forests, units of the National Park System, and related areas by improving the availability of adequate, appropriate, affordable, and cost effective housing for employees needed to effectively manage the public lands.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Land Management Agency Housing Improvement Act of 1992'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

As used in this Act, the term--

(1) `public lands' means Federal lands administered by the Secretary of the Interior or the Secretary of Agriculture; and

(2) `Secretaries' means the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Agriculture.

SEC. 3. EMPLOYEE HOUSING.

(a)(1) To promote the recruitment and retention of qualified personnel necessary for the effective management of public lands, the Secretaries are authorized to--

(A) make employee housing available, subject to the limitations set forth in paragraph (2), on or off public lands, and

(B) rent or lease such housing to employees of the respective Department at a reasonable value.

(2)(A) Housing made available on public lands shall be limited to those areas designated for administrative use.

(B) No private lands or interests therein outside of the boundaries of Federally administered areas may be acquired for the purposes of this Act except with the consent of the owner thereof.

(b) The Secretaries shall provide such housing in accordance with this Act and section 5911 of title 5, United States Code, except that for the purposes of this Act, the term--

(1) `availability of quarters' (as used in this Act and subsection (b) of section 5911) means the existence, within thirty miles of the employee's duty station, of well-constructed and maintained housing suitable to the individual and family needs of the employee, for which the rental rate as a percentage of the employee's annual gross income does not exceed the most recent Census Bureau American Housing Survey median monthly housing cost for renters inclusive of utilities, as a percentage of current income, whether paid as part of rent or paid directly to a third party;

(2) `contract' (as used in this Act and subsection (b) of section 5911) includes, but is not limited to, `Build-to-Lease', `Rental Guarantee', `Joint Development' or other lease agreements entered into by the Secretary, on or off public lands, for the purposes of sub-leasing to Departmental employees; and

(3) `reasonable value' (as used in this Act and subsection (c) of section 5911) means the base rental rate comparable to private rental rates for comparable housing facilities and associated amenities: Provided, That the base rental rate as a percentage of the employee's annual gross income shall not exceed the most recent American Housing Survey median monthly housing cost for renters inclusive of utilities, as a percentage of current income whether paid as part of rent or paid directly to a third party.

(c) Subject to appropriation, the Secretaries may enter into contracts and agreements with public and private entities to provide employee housing on or off public lands.

(d) The Secretaries may enter into cooperative agreements or joint ventures with local governmental and private entities, either on or off public lands, to provide appropriate and necessary utility and other infrastructure facilities in support of employee housing facilities provided under this Act.

SEC. 4. SURVEY OF RENTAL QUARTERS.

The Secretaries shall conduct a survey of the availability of quarters at field units under each Secretary's jurisdiction at least every five years. If such survey indicates that Government owned or suitable privately owned quarters are not available as defined in section 3(b)(1) of this Act for the personnel assigned to a specific duty station, the Secretaries are authorized to provide suitable quarters in accordance with the provisions of this Act. For the purposes of this section, the term `suitable quarters' means well-constructed, maintained housing suitable to the individual and family needs of the employee.

SEC. 5. SECONDARY QUARTERS.

(a) The Secretaries may determine that secondary quarters for employees who are permanently duty stationed at remote locations and are regularly required to relocate for temporary periods are necessary for the effective administration of an area under the jurisdiction of the respective agency. Such secondary quarters are authorized to be made available to employees, either on or off public lands, in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(b) Rental rates for such secondary facilities shall be established so that the aggregate rental rate paid by an employee for both primary and secondary quarters as a percentage of the employee's annual gross income shall not exceed the Census Bureau American Housing Survey median monthly housing cost for renters inclusive of utilities, as a percentage of current income, whether paid as part of rent or paid directly to a third party.

SEC. 6. SURVEY OF EXISTING FACILITIES.

(a) Within two years after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretaries shall survey all existing government owned employee housing facilities under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior and the Department of Agriculture, to assess the physical condition of such housing and the suitability of such housing for the effective prosecution of the agency mission. The Secretaries shall develop an agencywide priority listing, by structure, identifying those units in greatest need for repair, rehabilitation, replacement or initial construction, as appropriate. The survey and priority listing study shall be transmitted to the Committees on Appropriations and Energy and Natural Resources of the United States Senate and the Committees on Appropriations and Interior and Insular Affairs of the United States House of Representatives.

(b) Unless otherwise provided by law, expenditure of any funds appropriated for construction, repair or rehabilitation shall follow, in sequential order, the priority listing established by each agency. Funding available from other sources for employee housing repair may be distributed as determined by the Secretaries

SEC. 7. AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.

There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary to carry out this Act.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: March 27, 2006
To: Mark Rey, Undersecretary of Agriculture
From: Bill Dougan, President NFFE

Subject: Competitive Sourcing Study Proposed For Fire and Aviation Management

As I am sure you are well aware, through several conversations and electronic communications we have had on the subject, the Union is very concerned over the fact that the Forest Service continues to move forward on proposing to study, and ultimately compete, some or all of the work functions within Fire and Aviation Management. While we obviously have major concerns over the competitive sourcing initiative as a whole, which I am sure you are aware of, we are particularly concerned over this move to compete work functions in fire and aviation management.

One major area of concern is the fact that this competitive sourcing study is proposed to be done in an interagency fashion, with the study looking at the fire functions within all five federal agencies with wildland firefighting responsibilities. This presents huge problems with consistency and accuracy of data related to defining the work to be studied, as well as ultimately designing an MEO for purposes of bidding on the work to be performed. There continues to be differences in the definition of inherently governmental vs. commercial work between USDA and DOI, resulting in different categorization of positions (and the work they perform) for purposes of determining what work is appropriate or not appropriate to include in the competitive sourcing study. In addition, there are differences in requirements between USDA and DOI with respect to conducting feasibility studies prior to launching a competitive sourcing competition; again, these differences create the potential for differences in what work should, or could, be competed. And finally, it seems that there is a huge problem of trying to coordinate any such interagency effort between two Departments and 5 agencies/bureaus; the bureaucratic layers and differences between Departments and agencies/bureaus threatens to complicate the communication and coordination needed to the point of making it impossible to reach agreements and make decisions during the A-76 process.

There is also the unresolved issue of how to handle collateral fire duties, and the militia, which has not been successfully dealt with during any of the previous competitive sourcing competitions conducted by the Forest Service. Early on, the Union raised the issue of the need to figure out how to deal with the collateral fire duty work many of our employees perform, as members of the militia. This is work that is outside of the work performed by employees assigned to the fire organization, but is work that is crucial to the successful accomplishment of the fire organization and agency’s mission with respect to fire suppression, hazardous fuels reduction, and other fire-related work functions. About three years ago, the Union sat down with agency and Department managers in an attempt to address this issue, but the work was never completed; subsequent inquiries by the Union have either gone unanswered or have failed to respond with a plan and approach to deal with this problem. Repeated contacts with Tom Fitzpatrick, Program Manager for the Competitive Sourcing Office in the agency, has resulted in nothing more than an acknowledgement that the issue is still unresolved and “that is something we need to work on.”

I would submit that the agency cannot continue to ignore or side-step this issue any longer, given the decision to move forward with looking at competing fire functions under A-76. A significant amount of the work fire accomplishes is accomplished with the militia through employees with collateral duties. It is crucial to look at the work and determine what the work is, and how it will continue to be done, in light of potentially significant changes being proposed to the fire organization as a result of having to compete under A-76; indeed, if a contractor was to be successful in taking work currently done by our fire organization employees, what effect would that have on identical or similar work being performed by the militia?

The agency has invested a tremendous amount of resources (money, time and people) in training the militia workforce and ensuring they are made available to answer the call when the fire bell rings. The level of skill and amount of time required for these employees to obtain the necessary training and experience to hold many of the ICS positions is significant. It is unthinkable that the agency would be willing to risk losing that expertise and skill as well as the monetary investment in both the fire organization and militia. If work is outsourced, contractors will have difficulty in maintaining a workforce with the adequate skill sets needed to perform this work year after year.

Contractors providing fire-related services to the agency have had a less-than-satisfactory safety record. The long string of accidents, fatalities, injuries, and media coverage with the contract workforce in fire portrays a disaster waiting to happen. The recent USDA OIG audit report on Forest Service contract fire crews cites “serious control weaknesses with respect to the firefighting contract crews.” These weaknesses range from safety violations to lack of documentation for qualifications for fire positions. Is this the workforce that we want to hand the responsibility to for fire suppression and other fire work functions in the federal government? How will such actions be viewed by the public who lives and works on federal lands and in the wildland/urban interface? It seems to me we are risking public safety and failing to redeem our mission as stewards of the land by contemplating such changes.

Finally, I am also distressed that the recent March 21 letter to field managers announcing the data call for work activities performed by fire and aviation management employees, and which forms the basis for determining “what” work functions will be looked at during the feasibility study, gave only a 10 day response time for the data to be gathered and sent in. This timeframe seems woefully inadequate if an accurate accounting of the work currently being done is being asked for. Once again, in the rush to move forward, the agency is going to likely be doing so with incomplete and inaccurate data that forms the basis for choosing which functions will ultimately be competed under A-76.

I would be happy to meet or speak with you more about these concerns should you need more information or want to discuss the issues raised.

Cc: Hank Kashdan, Deputy Chief Business Operations

Here's the Influenza Workforce Protection Plan the Bosworth mentioned:
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/fs_influenza_protection.doc (doc file; clicking will download it)

Silk

Thanks, Silk. Good info here. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

March 16, 2006

Dale Bosworth, Chief
U.S. Forest Service
1400 Independence Ave. SW
Washington, DC 20250

Dear Chief Bosworth:

On behalf of the members and the Board of Directors of the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, I want to clarify who we are and the source of information we obtain and often pass along to Congress in order to improve the pay, benefits and working conditions of our Nation’s federal wildland firefighters.

The FWFSA is an employee association whose origins date back to 1991. As an employee association, our greatest asset is our diverse membership ranging from entry-level firefighters to chief officers. As a result of that membership, we are fortunate to receive significant information from our members about staffing, budgets, the concerns about criminal prosecution post Cramer & Thirty Mile etc.

For several years now we have communicated with the Forest Service & other land management agencies informing them of our efforts to improve pay, benefits & working conditions for our firefighters. I spoke with you personally at Lake Arrowhead during hearings held by the Resources Committee. I received nothing but a blank stare.

We have been straightforward with our goals and objectives, not to mention our strategies. We have invited & encouraged the Forest Service to work with us on issues such as proper firefighter classification; portal to portal pay; inclusion of hazard pay for prescribed burns; basic health care for temporary firefighters and other issues only to be summarily ignored as a non-entity.

Fortunately, over the last few years, one body has begun to listen to us…Congress. This has resulted in the elimination of the overtime pay cap for federal wildland firefighters in 2000 and the increasing interest in HR 408, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act currently drawing bipartisan support in Congress.

Quite candidly, we believe if the Forest Service is going to oppose or object to legislation which we believe to not only benefit federal wildland firefighters but America’s taxpayers, we have a duty to educate Congress on issues of concern, specifically fiscal management of fire suppression/preparedness budgets.

Each day I receive phone calls and emails about staffing cuts, engines being manned 5 days a week instead of 7 etc., all in a year in which the FY ’06 outlook has identified the fact that nationally, we have already burned nearly 10 times the 10 year average in acreage as of February 3rd. We are already seeing devastating fatal fires in Texas. Engines are being parked, forests can’t hire and recruitment & retention remains a very serious issue.

We are also extremely disappointed in what appears to be your decision to audit engine captain positions and attempt to downgrade GS-8 engine captains to GS-7s. What kind of message does this send to your firefighters?

We are also disappointed in learning that the Forest Service apparently is looking for someone to “blame” for the information we have recently submitted to congress. Such information is no secret…especially when you represent hundreds upon hundreds of firefighters occupying all positions within the fire service. We don’t rely on regional foresters or forest supervisors or anyone else other than our members to provide information to us.

All we seek is what we believe Congress & the American public also seek. Money appropriated by Congress for suppression & preparedness budgets should go to suppression & preparedness budgets. If you need more, you ask for more, not worry about political rear-ends. It would be a welcome change to have the leadership of the Forest Service stand up and actually work to improve things for its firefighters.

Its time for the Forest Service leadership to stand up for its firefighters and help stem the tide of firefighters leaving the federal service for more lucrative careers with state and municipal agencies or retiring early because they are fed up with the system. The brave men & women who serve you and the citizens of this country deserve your support and your steadfast commitment to seeing that they get what they deserve in pay, benefits & working conditions.

If the Forest Service leadership is unwilling to make that commitment for its employees who risk their lives so often, and lose them as well, then might I suggest it give us the ball, get out of the way and let us run with it.

Sincerely,

Casey Judd
Business Manager

"I have spent most of my career as a hotshot, including 12 years as a Supt. I am now on the other side of the radio as an FMO. Early on I became convinced that, as a fireline supervisor, I was responsible for the safety of my crew. There was no way anyone 75 miles away could compromise the safety of my crew. No way, no how."

That may very well be true for shots and jumpers who have such a high caliber of crew leadership, cohesion, training and experience. For others, including some recent entrapment fatalities, it's not quite the case.

vfd cap'n

Thanks for the contact info.

6thyrrookie

I want to say "Thank You" to John Maclean. for his apology regarding the
rumor spread about Heath and Allen. I hope their folks are still observing
this site.

All of us say things at one time or another that we soon regret. I felt
the apology was genuine and it took guts for him to express it. I know
I've been in situations where I've opened my mouth and out jumped a
havoc-wreaking gremlin that could not be retrieved. - leaves you squirming
until time brushes it away. (Luckily you screen our e-mails so we're not
squirming when we read our emotional responses the day after...thanks for
that last one.)

I hope the Heaths and Allens know how much they are thought about by
thousands of people in this community that they don't know. I can't
imagine the agony of losing a child, let alone having to endure it in
public.

-kj

“If I am a FFT2 I do not want some unknown FMO to keep me safe, I want my Crewboss, Engine Captain, etc. to do the job. I challenge you to find one IHC Supt or smokejumper sqaudleader who would admit that the safety of the tactics they employ could be compromised by management far removed from the scene.”

Here's how my mind interpreted the two sentences:

I trust my safety to my immediate supervisor. When fighting fire, hotshot and smokejumper supervisors do not allow safety to be compromised, especially by someone not on the fire.

Maybe Tim and I just have a similar background, mental slides, or see through the same lenses, cause I thought I knew exactly what he meant. I'm not sure how it could be twisted to mean that fmos or line officers cannot compromise safety. Weird how two such differing conclusions can be drawn from the same words isn't it?

SteveM

That email from Bosworth is also posted below. Ab.

gh

Though I was away from home when the posts about me and my work first hit TheySaid, I've been reading them. I wanted to reply immediately to the Heaths and Allens, who have been unnecessarily hurt by what was said in Reno and by the inevitable misunderstandings that followed -- in fact, I wrote a response the first day this started, but the computer at the hotel where I was staying wouldn't send it. The unfortunate tone of some subsequent posts, however, has made me wary about replying at all. After talking to Mellie, however, and receiving her assurance that she also would like to see a conclusion to the current exchanges, I am making the following reply, beginning with my view of what happened at the Reno conference.

Debra Roth, as I understand it, was invited to the Reno conference to give a defense lawyer’s point of view on the question of criminal liability for firefighters because a prosecutor, Mike Johns, had spoken on the same issue at a previous conference. The issue is important, and the organizers did a service by inviting both speakers; they aren’t responsible for how things turned out.

I sat in on Ms. Roth’s session after giving a presentation of my own, which Ms. Roth attended. She referred to me several times during her talk and was very much aware that I was in the audience. She repeatedly corrected me about Tom Craven’s age – she said 32, I had said 30 in my presentation. (He was born in January, 1971, which means he was 30 at the time of the Thirtymile Fire, in which he perished.)

While describing how her law firm had represented some fire managers involved with the Cramer Fire, Roth solicited from the audience “rumors” about why the two firefighters lost on that fire, Jeff Allen and Shane Heath, had spent so many hours on the ridgeline before they were burned over. It was an odd thing to request – a lawyer soliciting rumors? For a while nobody answered. She became insistent, however, repeating her question until a member of the audience (not me) replied, “sport falling.” That didn’t satisfy her. She asked several more times for other rumors.

Rightly or wrongly, I felt drawn out by her questions. She had been using my name freely and challenging me on points of fact where I was sure I was right. And so, very foolishly, I reported the rumor that drugs had been involved.

I immediately regretted making the remark, and have come to regret it even more since then. It has caused the Heaths and Allens a hurt that is the opposite of what I and any other sensible person wish for them. I should have kept my mouth shut.
I and others expected Ms. Roth to discuss the credibility of the rumors. I tried a couple of times to break in and say something about their credibility – no one knows exactly what happened on the ridgeline except the two young men who were there. Instead, Ms. Roth used the rumors she had solicited to discuss what her law firm had done to pressure authorities not to proceed further against their clients; at least that’s my understanding of what she was doing; her presentation confused me and others. The rumors, as I understood it, would have been raised in defense if the authorities had persisted with charges. I feel sucker punched. But I said what I said.

The only good that has come of all this has been the opportunity for the Heath and Allen families to answer the rumors, though from the anguish that is clear in their posting any benefit came at a very high price for them. I’m sorry I had a role in the business. I offer my apology to the Heaths and Allens, and also to those of goodwill who have expressed concern.
A couple of points about the posts regarding me and my work.

First, an author’s best defense is his writing. I sign my work. Fire on the Mountain and Fire and Ashes have stood up factually and in other ways to years of intense public, media, and agency scrutiny.

Second, I thank those writers – even the critical ones -- who have put forward thoughtful positions, taken a civil tone, and put their names on their posts.

Sincerely, John Norman Maclean

Let me share "my take" on the defense lawyer's presentation in Reno including the possible human factors considerations leading up to John Maclean's involvement. I'd also like to correct or clarify a few more points made by the lawyer. (For those who like spatial orientation... I was sitting in the back left of the wide conference room. John Maclean says he was in the right center-ish section. Ray Q was in the front-right center. It was a huge room.)

For organizational purposes, this presentation will utilize phases found in some fire investigations. My emphasis is on human factors. I do not seek to blame, but to facilitate lessons learned.

Pre-entrapment Phase:

I came to Ms. Roth's talk interested in what a legal defense professional had to say about professional liability. I expected

• the presentation would shed additional light on the kinds of investigations and procedures that follow a burnover or near miss.
• we'd learn the parameters of the legal playing field so we could all have a mental map of how the legal system works, including what a firefighter should or shouldn't say without a lawyer being present.
• the presentation would follow the logical "rules":
  • introduction where the audience is told what will be covered;
  • content is clearly and logically presented;
  • summary and reiteration of the few most important points, aka "the take home message".

Context of my interest: We all know the legal quandary professional firefighter managers are faced with these days given all the rules that have grown out of fatality fires. During the Southern California 2003 conflagrations, firefighters had to fight fire under some extreme interface fire conditions in which it's impossible to fight fire safely and simultaneously document ALL the many rules and checklists the way a Grand Jury and court of law seems to want these days. So firefighters now live in a certain, sometimes confusing legal reality. How do they do the best job possible given the new legal parameters?

OK, so I expected some answers and this is what I thought the event organizers were looking for in her presentation too -- some clarity from a legal professional crafted for present and future Incident Managers and others at legal risk fighting fire in a complex organization in a very high risk environment...

1. Specifically, if the worst happens on your watch,
   • how to avoid indictment,
   • what are the legal liabilities,
   • how to avoid them,
   • differences between criminal, civil and administrative liabilities;
   • types of investigations, their order and how they relate to the next step of legal quagmire
   • agency accident investigation,
   • OSHA safety investigation,
   • accountability investigation that can result in disciplinary action;
   • USDA / OIG criminal investigation,
   • etc.
2. Possibly also the reasons why fire managers should consider getting professional liability insurance or at least enough information so they could decide.

Entrapment Phase:

In my opinion, Ms. Roth had a good powerpoint, a plan, and her talk started quite well. It was the last guest presentation of the excellent conference. The audience seemed relaxed, open and interested. She said she'd take questions as she went along. I don't think I was alone in feeling we would learn some very good, valuable things, maybe even gain some insights or understand some details available only to someone close to recent worrying legal processes. It seemed she'd made it clear that she'd entertain questions that might arise if anything needed clarifying.

She said she and her partner had been the defense lawyers for several people on the 30mile Fire and also for several people on the Cramer Fire, as a result of them having professional liability insurance. She presented her first few slides. The legal info was clear. She engaged the audience. At some point she began interjecting comments relating to the 30-mile and Cramer fires and referred to a vehicle accident that led to firefighter deaths. She solicited information . . . and then rumors from the audience.

She spoke and it seemed she was verifying a good number of her comments about the 30mile Fire with a person in the audience who I assumed was her legal partner. "As John knows..." "John will even agree with me on this." (I found out later she was addressing John Maclean whom she had only met a brief time before.)

As her talk progressed, I was shocked that some of her comments were incorrect. It seemed to me that the only follow-up questions she allowed were ones she liked. Some other comments she solicited left incorrect impressions. It was confusing, and became more and more unclear to me what she was really trying to convey.

Here are some of her statements that I feel were in error or misled the audience:

• Tom Craven was 32. I don't know why she harped on 32. He was 30 when he died. His age was inconsequential to any point of interest in her talk. Regardless of his age he died way too young. (Aside: I was lucky enough to have known Tom. He'd been a student at a local college where I'd taught some night classes. He was a special person. Great guy, star athlete. He could get it done. I really liked his empathic reassuring style. He had a knack for working with people and putting them at ease.)
• The drug use rumor she elicited from John Maclean regarding Shane and Jeff on the Cramer Fire. She did not correct or clarify it except to say that the Forest Service allowed no autopsy. Not true. That she did not know or did not choose to clarify was confusing and upsetting.
• The brief, off-the-cuff comment she made about the driver of the van of young people who'd been drinking before going 90 mph and killing everyone in a head-on crash. If she was referring to the young people on the firefighting contract crew from Oregon, she was just wrong. I did some of the research to obtain contact info on a forensic specialist in TX who's studied alcohol breakdown products in bodies of people who have died in crashes. High alcohol level in such crash victims is attributable to biochemical breakdown products. Charges were never brought if I recall correctly. Why even bring that one up? Or if you do, have the facts straight.
• On the 30mile fire, claiming that the escaped campfire with half-eaten hotdog and the inoperable pumps caused the deaths. Ray Quintanar got her to correct herself on that one.
• The heartless fire investigators that interviewed her client firefighters way too soon after the 30mile burnover, never mind that it's the correct thing for investigators to do from a stress and memory perspective.

Burnover Phase:

So there's the context of John Maclean's comment. Should he have repeated a rumor? No. He shouldn't have said it. But in my opinion, she went fishing and she chummed him in. When she first asked for rumors, a number of people in the audience, myself included, were thinking or saying too much cutting, sport falling, joy logging. That was one rumor. -- UNTRUE --

But she didn't want that one. She kept casting out the rumor line more and more insistently, and lo and behold, a river ran through it and John Maclean bit. (Sorry John, I couldn't resist…) If I'd known that rumor would I have bit? maybe, I've said some unthinking stupid things in my time with the best of intentions... but <snip> was sitting next to me and I sure hope he woulda wacked me - HARD- as I opened my mouth <fishlike>!)

After Action Review and Lessons Learned:

John shouldn't have said it; he regrets it greatly for the pain it's caused; he'd take it back if he could and I feel for him. (In my estimation, he jumped in to provide an answer, expecting dialog and clarification. Confusion. Heck, I was confused too!!!)

I think the much greater responsibility for rumor and misinformation lies with the lawyer who consciously or unconsciously (lawyer habit?) involved the jury, er, audience. Putting on my human factors hat again... from her perspective there might be a human factors explanation as well. I just can't put myself inside a lawyer's head to figure out what it would be.

I don't know if anyone else found it ironic that Gordon Graham, the risk management man, speaker extraordinaire, and also a lawyer told the conference the day before

America was founded as a nation of laws. The good news is that the US operates under a rule of law. The bad news is that between 1776 and 2006, someplace in the mid-'60, we became a nation of lawyers ...

I can see him in my mind's eye as I share my disillusionment with him...
<big low very deep raspy ahh-haaaahh accompanied by his slow nod of assent> <the gleam in his eye>

He might say as well,

There are 3 rules of Risk Management:

1. There are no new ways to get in trouble
2. There's always a better way to stay out of trouble
3. Things that go wrong in life are predictable, predictable is preventable.

This is my offering to all reading. It's "my take" on the defense lawyer's presentation and John's involvement, another slide for the slide tray... Gordon is right on. Others who were there no doubt have their truth. Mine is not definitive. If anyone has good notes on Ms. Roth's main points, would you please send them in? Somehow my thoughts and note-taking got sidetracked.

Mellie

PS Anyone needs to, feel free to contact me through Ab. I'm happy to talk. (I'd rather not have personal contact info on the web.) Also ...I believe John's writing stands on its own. It's understood that any writing always comes from the perspective of the writer and different human beings view the world through different "lenses", so to speak. Mine are rose colored, I've been told.

We got word at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation that Destry Horton, the volunteer firefighter from Oklahoma has died from his burns. We're checking into sending the family a WFF statue from the wildland fire community. I talked with the Union rep and he said there should be no problem with Destry's family receiving PSOB. That, at least is a relief.

Burk Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Sad news. Burk, next time you talk with any of those folks, please offer our condolences. Thank you for being there and keeping tabs on the help and support firefighters around the country need. Those Oklahoma, Texas, Southwestern folks are some of the nicest, helping-est  people out there. Ab.

KD

Please send my thanks to everyone who has answered with contacts in
the other regions. I really appreciate their rapid replies and help.

Lobotomy

I write because I have the dubious honor of being the last CDF fire lookout staff that manned a tower in 2005. Possibly the last CDF full time lookout ever. I am trying and keep CDF's fixed detection system operable and funded and am looking for others to help by writing their state government representatives, or anyone else they can think of that may apply, indicating support for funding/staffing all CDF fire lookouts. Any takers? An email to the Governor could help to. Contact info can be found on the ca.gov home page.

Thanks, hope to be watching over some of you during the 2006 season.

wojlookout

This Ab will write in...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

News coverage has been full of information and predictions about avian influenza and the potential for a world-wide incident similar to the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918. I’d like to give you my take on this.

While I think it is good business to do some organizational and personal contingency planning, I don’t want people to panic and assume the worst case scenario. The Forest Service is the best organization I know of at planning for and managing emergencies. We need to bring that expertise to this potential in a calm and professional manner.

Attached is a copy of Avian Influenza Bulletin #1. This is the first of our periodic information updates on the avian influenza and potential pandemic. We will send status reports and new information as it becomes available in the future.

We also recently distributed an Influenza Workforce Protection Plan. This document provides direction for field units on developing local plans. Bulletin #1 describes several other actions underway for communicating up-to-date, factual information on this emerging issue.

There are many unknowns at this point. While experts think avian influenza will probably get to the United States sometime in the next year by migrating wild birds, no one knows if it will mutate which would set the stage for a potential pandemic influenza outbreak. It would be wise to be prepared and I know we will be.

That’s my take.

Dale Bosworth,
Chief, USDA Forest Service

USDA Forest Service Avian Influenza Bulletin #1

Does anyone have a copy of the Influenza Workforce Protection Plan he mentions? Ab.

HAW HAW  Ab.

Did you look on the FAQ page. There's a list there. Ab.

"On the HR Director's conference call we were informed that the Chief has
asked the WO HR office to pull together a team to review the classification
decision regarding the grade level of these positions. As you know, the
outcome of the review conducted in 2002 was that the positions are GS-7
based on the General Schedule Supervisory Guide. The review was initially
conducted in Region 3. Given the broad impact if the decision were
implemented agencywide, the team will be looking at this one more time to
ensure that all options are considered."

My observations....

1) Chief Bosworth wasn't the Chief at the time the original 1997 classification for position description N8017 was made or the 2001 UPHELD classification audit was held. BUT HE REFUSES TO LISTEN TO HIS EXPERTS or HISTORICAL fact from the people who were there...... his original classifiers and his wildland firefighters.

2) The 2002 Review was directed by the Chiefs office..... It directed that some Engine Captains would be GS-7's and the majority would be GS-6's.

3) The GSSG (General Schedule Supervisory Guide) was incorrectly applied and did not account for recent classification decisons or changes to the job as reflected by duty changes and supervisor statements. The Region 3 Audit even incorrectly evaluated factors 1, 4, and 5 at the contest of fire managers who said they were not adequately evaluating the duties of the position.

4) Broad Impact.... duh.... If a downgrade occurs, it will be the downfall of the agency.

For those of you not in the loop... the BS thing we are dealing with is that the base level of work in wildland firefighting is now described as the GS-4 level by the WO....... Engine Captains now rate out as GS-6's....... If the agency is kind enough to call them "Supervisors"..... then they rate out as GS-7's IF they (the Agebcy) include the agency interpretation of the GSSG. \The Region 5 Review had a completely different take on the issue.

A seperate classification group worked for hundreds of hours making these positions bomb proof. A completely professional group of classifiers classified position description N8017.

PD N8017 was challenged to OPM by a Region 3 classification appeal as to why it did not apply in Region 3. It caused a wide spread desk audit in Region 5 in 2001.

After the Region 5 desk audit, the position of GS -8 Engine Captina was upheld by internal FS classifiers. In fact, it was only 85 points from being upgraded to GS-9.

With all of the "Doctrinal Change" and the requirements for "All Risk" response (and no changes to the PD's), any educated classification specialist would see that the PD's are properly classified. If not, they open up a bag of worms they may not be prepared to deal with. Upgrade of Engine Captains to GS-9's.

Lobotomy

After the smoke had cleared I found out that we had almost driven into a
ditch, which would have gotten us in front of the fire.

Better safe then sorry.
Cris

Okla. Firefighter Burned In Wildfire Dies
Volunteer Was Badly Injured In Early March Fire

Condolences to family and friends... Ab.

Thanks, Marty. 1980 was before fire data- and record-keeping was done on the web. That didn't really start until about 1998 or '99. How far things have come in a very few years. Look at the 209 database. Rich. Now there was an inspiration! Of course if we have a worst case scenario pandemic with 60% of workers staying home, and the web goes down due to people working from home, we could be in deep trouble in the fire world. Ah well, we'll let the WO people who make the big bucks plan for that. Ab.

Ray/Ed:

On the HR Director's conference call we were informed that the Chief has
asked the WO HR office to pull together a team to review the classification
decision regarding the grade level of these positions. As you know, the
outcome of the review conducted in 2002 was that the positions are GS-7
based on the General Schedule Supervisory Guide. The review was initially
conducted in Region 3. Given the broad impact if the decision were
implemented agencywide, the team will be looking at this one more time to
ensure that all options are considered.

The team is tentatively scheduled to meet April 4 and 5 in Portland. The
team will consist of a WO Classifier, a R5 Classifier (Sheila Turbinton), a
BLM Classifier, an R5 Fire Engine Captain (designated by FAM) and Ed
Hollenshead in his new capacity as Dep Director, FAM. You should be
hearing from a WO contact on this as they work to set the meeting up.

We were also informed that the WO will issue a letter soon to all R/S/A's
informing us that we can not establish any new GS-462-8 Engine Captains and
that we should not fill any vacancies at the GS-8 level until this issue is
resolved. I know from the HR staff that there are numerous certs out for
Engine Captains, many of which selections were expected to be made within
the week. I asked the HR staff to proceed to fill the positions at the 7
if they were advertised that way and if we make any job offers at the GS-8
level prior to the WO direction coming out, we need to let the selectee
know what is going on and the possibility that the positions can be no
higher than the GS-7 level.

Also on yesterday, Dan Dufrene sent a message out to a host of folks
stating that the Region has cancelled all vacancy announcement and outreach
notices for the GS-462-8 Engine Captains. This is not the case. No
announcements have been cancelled and outreach has not been halted. I
clarified this yesterday in conversation with Dan. At this point I am
trying to do some rumor control regarding this piece of misinformation.
Please get the word out that we have not cancelled announcements nor have
we stopped outreach.

If you have questions, please call.

Marcia K. Staten
Director, Human Resources
Pacific Southwest Region

Sign me, Wondering

It's my understanding that the new R5 Forester also has supported wildland firefighters in R5. The details may come to me. If anyone knows, please spout off. This site should be about thanking good people as well as pointing out limitations. Any other endorsements? Ab.

I tell all my people that they should read as many books about fire and by fire fighters as possible. Then I want them to ask questions. I start conversations about what they have read. A few times I have been able to introduce them to people who were actually at South Canyon and on the forest(s) of 30 Mile.

I was lucky enough to have several talks with Paul Gleason about the fatality fires he had been on and experiences he had had. I learned a lot, and try to pass it on.

The one thing I try to bring forward in every firefighters mind, at all levels, is this. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY. If something doesn't seem right, ask questions. If you have a concern, and no one else seems to, bring it up. I have pulled out of fires to regroup on the basis of questions asked by people on their first I.A.  Everyone on the fireline has the responsibility to watch out for themselves and the people around them. This looking to blame someone, that isn't what firefighters are about. From my experience most of us are looking to help someone.

Kind of a ramble but I am sitting here getting a sick feeling inside reading all this. We have bigger problems. By 2010 how many of us will still have jobs? The fire year is looking to be a busy one. All predictions for hurricanes are that there are going to be more 'canes and stronger ones this year.

KD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> From HARV FORSGREN, Regional Forester, Southwest Region in a letter to the Chief of the Forest Service, Dale Bosworth.

"I respectfully disagree with this decision and request reconsideration based upon what I believe to be incorrect assumptions presented in the evaluation statement."

"I have requested and received support from all other Regional Foresters to act on their behalf in my request."

"With the concurrence of Line Officers and Unit Fire Management Officers and Region Fire Management, it was determined that many locations in Region 3 met the criteria of the GS-8 because of changed management and fire environment conditions since 1997."

"A regional classification field review in 2002 of the Prescott National Forest resulted in the approved use of the GS-8 position description in the Region where the criteria was met. Forests proceeded with the GS-8 positions where applicable."

"As per your letter of March 13, 2001 which stated “the Appropriateness of the GS-8 Fire Engine Captain and Fire Engine Operator would need to be determined by classification specialists at the regional level and most likely verified by desk audit.”

"In March 2005 additional guidance was issued without field input that arbitrarily included the addition that the GS-462-8 position was again for R-5 forests only."

"In 2004 the Chief directed implementation of the Interagency Fire Program Management Qualifications Standards (IFPM)."

"The guide assigned the grade level to be GS-7/8 for the Engine Module Supervisor."

"We understand that the GS-8 Standard Position Description was based on supervising at least seven crew members to provide five-person staffing for seven days per week through the field season and crediting of physical dispersion as a special situation. We strongly disagree that the use of the Standard Position Description is only appropriate in California and we submit that the Southwestern Region has comparable complexities. We also disagree on segments of the decision where our regional evaluation was downgraded for program scope and effect and base level determination affecting supervisory duties and responsibilities."

"The decision only credits our Engine Captain with supervising work that is routine in nature and states that the majority of the work is at the GS-4 level."

"The configuration of the crew, engine, and training standards are nationally set and identical to Region 5."

"The decision also fails to give credit for the complexity of the work. This work typically ranges from operating a large, complex fire engine while supervising the crew, to becoming an incident commander responsible for supervising multiple interagency resources. Supervision of operation of the engine is not routine and varies from incident to incident depending upon the location of the incident, forest or wildland urban interface. The engine supports the work of the crew, which must be trained to operate in hazardous environments, extreme weather conditions, to build hand lines or deploy hose packs for long periods. The Engine Captain under time critical decision situations, is constantly evaluating, identifying, and analyzing strategy and tactics for a variety of forest, range, and interface mix, often in a unified command with other agencies and municipal fire districts. The challenges that face our Engine Captains in the wildland urban interface have increased in the last decade due to the encroachment of residential, commercial and human activities within and adjacent to our National Forest boundaries. They are dealing today with directing suppression actions on incidents with resource and structure values measured in the millions and not uncommonly billions of dollars."

"In addition the decision goes on to say “This factor is a critical difference in the GS-8 national SPD because the GS-8 position was designed for a fire program with the complexities found in southern California. The fire program in southern California is the most complex program in the agency. The fire seasons are longer than other parts of the country. The GS-8 position description is appropriate for use for positions supervising Type III engines with a crew comprised of at least seven individuals, the intent being to provide five person staffing seven days per week throughout the field season.”

"The critical difference in classification centers around the concept that only southern California, Region 5, has the fire complexities that justified the GS-8 grade in 1997. This concept appears to remain locked in time and fails to recognize the fire management, social, and environmental changes that have occurred service-wide across the nation since 1997."

"Much as the southern California complexities are considered applicable across all of California the same complexities now exist nation-wide."

"Given credit for the above factors, we feel that our position is properly classified at the GS-8 level. Based on potential negative ramifications to all Forest Service Regions, I request that this decision be reexamined and that it be reviewed openly and fairly."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ab and All-- To sum it all up:

The Regional Forester said, with concurrence from the other Regions Foresters -

"I have requested and received support from all other Regional Foresters to act on their behalf in my request."

"Much as the southern California complexities are considered applicable across all of California the same complexities now exist nation-wide."

R3er

Additional job vacancies on the Jobs Page today.  Pacific Wildfire is looking for EMTs and Firefighters across several States.

Ab.

We have used 50:1 in a stove and it does work - it leaves a ton of soot on your cooking stuff though, i am sure its the oil burning off and sticking to everything. It also clogs jets as oil and gas is dirty stuff to begin with. You can also use a couple of fusees cut in half lengthwise to get the sulfur out, pile this up in a shallow pile and light to boil water rapidly. It stinks to high hell, causes night blindness if you watch it, and will burn through most aluminum cookery if you let it. Otherwise you can boil a gallon of water in about 120 seconds using the fusees. Be sure to cover the water to keep the sulfur taste out or it tastes like hot springs water.

Later and be safe

Eric

OK, Readers, can we quit with <snip>? Ab.

I didn't mention South Canyon in my post. My comments had nothing to do with South Canyon and I didn't offer my experience as an insult to <the original poster>. However, I do stand by my statement that inexperienced journalists are, in my opinion, an intrusion... pain in the arse...etc..etc.. Point of clarification, my post about these intrusions were not directed towards <the original poster>. In fact the only thing in my post directed towards you was my disagreement with calling the work of this author creative non-fiction. I expected a rise out of you but this time you took my post too personally.

I have read the work of other journalists who had obviously taken the time to understand the subject matter they were writing about and though I didn't always agree with them I respected their points of view. Other authors have a biography that include time on the line. This line experience gives these writers the ability to not only be creative but also objective in their pursuit of a story.

Lets talk a little bit about experience...I haven't survived 34 years in the business without gaining some knowledge along the way. I have less experience than some and more than others. My father didn't fight fires so I had to learn not only the skills but the culture of the ever changing fire organizations to survive in this profession. I can be a dinosaur at times and a progressive thinker and doer at other times. I learn things from my peers and the new recruits. I continue to be amazed by the capacity of wild fire organizations to adapt to changes in environments be they social or physical. I admire the individuals who choose to become wild land fire fighters and support t, like Chief Dan George said in the movie Josey Wales, their "struggle to persevere". My humble fire line experience allows me to provide this support in my own way. To be clear an un-muddled... I choose not to support the opinions of the author being discussed on this forum.

Oliver

Over the last couple of weeks a few topics here have provoked more passionate or emotional response than normal. We generally consider volatile debate positive and beneficial to the forum since opposing opinions or perspectives are more likely to be expressed and occasionally even committed lurkers are stimulated to respond.

While we enjoy a rousing, aggressive discussion as much as our audience, it can become much more complicated to moderate. We strive to maintain an impartial and evenhanded approach and conform to our objective of allowing a “free speech” area. That being said, there has always been a somewhat obscure gray area between the lines of what we judge acceptable or unacceptable for posting. Our decisions to decline posting some messages while posting others have understandably angered a few folks. In an attempt to help us and you to define and better understand the construction of an acceptable post, we are developing a list of guidelines we’ll use to establish a “policy”. We sincerely desire your honest input with this project.

The first guideline we are implementing immediately is the rejection or return for revision of any message that is directed towards a previous person instead of the subject matter in their post, if using their moniker or name makes the post more about the "who" than the "what" (that is more about their personality rather than the content of the message). It has been common and allowable to begin a reply to an existing message by referring to it using the poster’s name or alias. Often this is not a problem, as with discussion of boots or with kudos to a supervisor. In addition this may allow frequent readers to quickly associate the new message to a previous thread. However, we find it also can promote hostility between two or more writers instead of providing civil debate beneficial to all readers. We often ask posters to stick to issues not personalities, but we would like to see people responsibly crafting messages more like they're an after action review, more about the what not the who. We Abs have gotten tired of sending messages back and asking for a re-write. It takes hours out of our day. We know you've had training in this leadership quality. It would be nice to see more of it demonstrated in your posts here. If you’d like to discuss an issue with another person directly, we suggest inviting them to our Chat Room.

The next new guideline is that opposing opinion on any message is welcome and encouraged, but personal attacks on the poster must be avoided. It is pointless and counterproductive to accuse or belittle other posters’ motives, background, or character in order to dispute or disprove their message.

Since the emails are incoming as this is being written, you may already be subject to the new guidelines without being aware of them. If so, you will receive a reply requesting you update your post to conform to the new guidelines. As we continue, with your help, to develop and refine these guidelines, a page is being created and a prominent link will be provided for easy access. We encourage your input on this issue along with any others you feel pertinent and look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks for reading and for your continuing (or new) contributions.

Original Ab and Ab.

One of the heads of the union states: they are planning on studying much of the fire and aviation management organization for the forest service and the other agencies. All 5 of the federal agencies will be doing a A-76 interagency study of fire management. They do not state how they are going to do it. The union is very concerned about this study.

After having seen the poor attempts the Forest Service has done with theses A-76 studies (IT, fleet maintenance, personnel etc.) I can only imagine how screwed up this will be, but if this is true you can bet we the employees will lose either by reduced grades or tours or our jobs!

Anyhow I cannot always keep up with all the A-76 study stuff, so has anyone out there heard anything else or seen anything about it?

Driptorch

We have fire folks who want to do their jobs safely and well, we have journalists who want to document the lives and actions of firefighters. Journalists can enable firefighters to function safely by bringing fire and all its attendant issues to public attention; public attention influences agency policy and legislation. Awareness encourages defensible space, which makes our jobs easier and safer. Firefighters can enable journalists to do their jobs by granting them access and insight. Journalists are not firefighters. Firefighters are not journalists. We can never really UNDERSTAND each other's viewpoints without having done both jobs for extended periods of time, but we can empathize.

I know a couple of things about Shari's background, and I believe she's in a better position to empathize than most. Journalists can act as interpreters, allowing the public vicarious access, and empathy, to the world of firefighters. It's easy to say from a fire point of view that we don't need journalists, and from a strictly functional point of view that's true. But we exist within a social and political framework, and journalists enable us to influence bits of that framework that are important, and that we can't otherwise reach.

My main point is that empathy is a tricky thing, because between the access and insight that firefighters try to give journalists, and the story that gets to the public, the message gets filtered through the storyteller's life experiences and preconceptions, their prejudices and beliefs. I know there's some folks on the site who remember about two years ago and article came out on slate.com about how lazy and overpaid firefighters are, and I think somebody commented (Lobotomy? NCbrush6?) that the reporter sounded like a firefighter had stolen his girl. Anyway, empathy is tricky and subjective, but we need that empathy; empathy is why sometimes journalism tells us more than fatality investigations.

Good journalism is empathy with strict regard for the truth, and with careful control and full understanding on the part of author of his or her own biases. We can react with in shock or betrayal when something comes out in print that contradicts our own self-images, or our own preconceptions about an event. This is normal. If you step back, it usually tells us more about the preconceptions and biases of the author than about anything else. Then you either work around those biases, try to change them, or deny that person access. When something is factually wrong, as in the rumor about the Cramer boys, we can refute it as forcefully as practicable (I cried when I read that post). But name calling and generalizations about whole professions based on the conduct of few gets us nowhere.

Firefighting and journalism have a symbiotic relationship; how else do we get voters who have never seen flame in its natural habitat to care about us if we don't have effective communication with, and through, journalism?

There's a bunch more I'd like to say, but it's late, and this post is long. We all want safer firefighters, more effective communication, and mutual respect.

(tired) Nerd on the Fireline

Thanks Nerd. Good points. Ab.

Thanks TC, I look forward to  posting whatever you can find.

Hate to disagree with you on the creative non-fiction title for John Maclean but I do. Maybe we need to put some S courses together for journalists so they would have the skill sets needed to be professional with their journalistic intrusions into the wildland fire world. For those that want to book this particular speaker I would offer this...It's hard to keep the camel out of the tent once its head is in...

As for having differing opinions... bobble headed figurines all have one thing in common... but sometimes you need to shake your head in a sideways motion to exercise your given right to disagree. The difference with JM's opinions and mine is experience on the line. When you and I disagree the difference is that you can write better than me.

Oliver

The flu bug that could bring the world to its knees

Print this one off and send it to your family members,  friends, and to your Safety Officers. Ab.

Amazing what an engine audit followed by one or two posts will do. It has been rather lively. I've been busy with meetings, etc, and not paying extra close attention... (Mollysboy, who is disagreeing about Cramer? I thought Jodi and Steve wrote an important letter and some logical comments followed from that. What do you disagree with? I don't hear any of those contributors really disrespecting each other, just asking questions and making comments.) Ab.

Union IHC Logo

Nice. I'll post the bigger one on the logos page when I have time. Ab.

Keep a personal personnel file of your own. Get a copy of everything that is presently in your official personnel folder (OPF). Continually update your personal copy. Every personnel action, performance appraisals including fire ratings, job descriptions, etc. Don't throw anything remotely related to your employment away, put it in your personal folder. When I retired my personal personnel folder was five times as thick as my Official personnel folder. You never know when a new regulation of something comes along and you will need to document your work history.

Yes I needed mine to document my work history to qualify for firefighter retirement when that first came along about 1975.

Tom Jones

KD

VOL Dave

Readers, can you help Marty out? Ab.

SoCal-Capt,

Don't forget the real world simulation from the fire folks from the Cleveland, San Bernardino, and Angeles National Forests..... as well as the participants from CDF and County fire. Actual fire simulations were the key to understanding the position of a wildland fire captain's duties.

Engine Captains from throughout Region 5 participated. Several FEOs from Region 5 also were reviewed.

SoCalCapt, the classifiers read your statement but didn't understand it in their blurred and undereducated professional eyes. They needed a real world demonstration to put images with facts..... ie- the Mill Creek exercise. The exercise went well showing physical dispersion... It went even better when the topography and rainfall made communications useless just as it does on a normal fire.......

Hopefully they will do the same thing in this audit..... if not, they are not looking at the real picture of being an engine captain or the real duties of an engine captain. If they fail to look at the "big picture", it will be the biggest class action classification review ever........ And the Captains will win again. It is a battle they should not instigate unless they know their facts. The battle could be turned upon them and make Engine Captains GS-9's as they are with DoD Station Captains...... But we "should never compare forestry technicians with firefighters"? Or should we?

CNF Capt in 2001

The engine captain is still supervising this whole operation WHILE HE OR SHE IS PHYSICALLY DISPERSED FROM THE WORK BEING PERFORMED but still responsible for that work performed and the safety of crewmembers performing it.

One example in the GSSG states "a supervisor working in a large warehouse or factory where physical dispersion makes supervision difficult". How could any classifier not realize that physical dispersion does exist with these positions. For anyone interested in the matters of the classification, please read the two above guides and relate them to your official PD. That is how these positions were classified and certified.

SoCal-Capt
(Now a PO'd BC/ADFMO who supports the Captains and can't figure why this is happening again)

Thanks Matt. Our condolences to all. Ab.
Hey TC is Joseph Ely in one of these photos you took last July? If not, does anyone have a photo to share?
photos: Rattlesnake dedication 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (thumbnail only); plaque

The issue that seems to be at the forefront is the term "physical dispersion". It can be found under the General Schedule Supervisory Guide under "Special Conditions".

The evaluation statement for Position Description N8017 (GS-8 Engine Captain) states the following in regards to physical dispersion:

"The engine crew is routinely subject to physical dispersion during emergency responses, creating an inherent difficulty for the supervisor even on small incidents. This results in work being carried out at more than one separate location. The supervisor is responsible for the employees while they are at other locations while on the home unit, as well as on fire assignments. The incumbent frequently supervises work that is being performed in different locations. The supervision and communication with subordinates is routinely complicated by limited visual contact (due to smoke, terrain, vegetation, etc.), unreliable radio communication, night-time work assignments, and crew members frequently changing locations. Credit is given for this factor."

Classifiers Handbook:
www.opm.gov/fedclass/clashnbk.pdf (pdf file)

Grade Level Guide for Aid and Technical Work in the Biological Sciences:
www.opm.gov/fedclass/gs0400.pdf (pdf file)

General Schedule Supervisory Guide:
www.opm.gov/fedclass/gssg.pdf (pdf file)

Since the initial classification in 1997 and the subsequent classification audit in 2001, the duties have changed quite a bit. Here is an example: Special Situation - 1 - Variety of Work....

"1. Variety of Work: There is only one type of work associated with this position -- forestry technicians engaged in wildland fire suppression. No credit is warranted for this factor."

For areas that are required to have medical first responder and hazmat first responder, this meets the factor and credit should be awarded.

Lobotomy

My style is to look at interpersonal interactions from all possible directions, to try to understand particular events from a human factors viewpoint, to try to see the world through the lens of the other person before attributing their behavior to "bad" intentions or any intentions at all. Maybe they're just thought-less?

I don't see the world as black or white (and sounds like you don't either), but I'm interested in what might live in the variety of greys that could further illuminate us to ourselves, or what might live in the white, leading to a little more grey, leading to a little more grey, leading to a little more grey, until it's black as night... And could I please get some night goggles while I'm at it???... I know, I'm a bit off-norm that way, but people fascinate me, nah, not everybody, but the people I get interested in fascinate me. <see, now you're in trouble, yj>

I don't feel anything negative about you at all. You say I've seemed to respond as a contrarian (my word) to you on theysaid. Probably true... let me apologize in advance... here's what I go thru... when confronted with hard and fast opinions or anger and I don't know the person, I generally find myself wanting to soften edges for all and get some mental breathing room. This allows me to maintain my flexibility of thought and exploration, to get a fuller picture if that's possible. I like to have the freedom to hold the person/ incident/ interaction/ decisions made/ choices in my hand, turn them/it to scrutinize from all directions, see the details, if any, to learn from. (Hopeless, eh?)

People don't go out and decide to do things that turn out bad for themselves and others. Most of us don't. But it does happen. I learn from others when I can look at situations and ask, "How would I have done that differently? Would I have? What might not be apparent here?" I know there are times I might have appeared callous or self-serving or opinionated or lacking leadership, just as I judge others to be from time to time. Does that mean I intended to be any of those things or that I am those things at my core? Does it mean that they are? Does it mean I should change my behavior? Hmmm, maybe behavior change is in order. For me the possibility always exists... The only way I can evaluate that is to bring my KSAs to bear on everything I see, feel and hear. Feedback, communication is key to change.

Yellowjacket, thanks for the honesty. I'd love to give you a hug. <big warm enveloping bear hug> Thanks for your honest contributions to the dialog. (If ever you want to get in touch on the phone or by email Ab will give you my info...)

Mellie

Aside: One thing that crosses my mind occasionally... Competence... <fret fret> Original Ab has said he'd tell me if I'm incompetent. Ever since the research showing incompetents never know they're incompetent, I have doubted whether I'd ever see that in myself.... <big eyes> <full of wonder> <desiring to see all>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 6150-1 Date: March 17, 2006
Route To: (5100)
Subject: Classification of Engine Captains
To: Regional Foresters

OPTIONAL REPLY DUE MARCH 29, 2006

As you are aware, the grade levels of Engine Module Supervisors/Engine Captains are not consistent Forest Service-wide. The discrepancy in grade levels became even more apparent during the fire hiring build-up in 2001. A team was convened to conduct desk audits of Fire Engine Captains and Fire Engine Operator positions in California. The team concluded that the Fire Engine Captains were correctly classified as Supervisory Forestry Technicians, GS-462-08. The grade level of the Engine Captains was based on supervisory responsibilities, and, in particular, the crediting of physical dispersion as a special situation.

A recent classification appeal from Region 3 has caused us to revisit the classification of these positions. Because there are now over 250 GS-8 Engine Captains in Regions 2, 3, 4 and 5, the Chief has asked the Human Capital Management Staff to convene a team to review the classification of these positions. The team will be comprised of classification specialists from the Washington Office and several regions, an Engine Captain from R-3 and R-5, the Deputy Director of F&AM in R-5, an Engine Captain and a classification specialist from the Bureau of Land Management, and a union representative. The team will review both the supervisory and nonsupervisory work and the Factor Levels credited, and will consider the effect, if any, that future anticipated changes in the fire program will have on these positions.

We realize that your Human Resources staffs are stretched very thin, but we are hopeful that we can have at least several Regional classifiers participate in this review. The team will meet in the R-6 Regional Office in Portland on April 4-5 from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. to complete the review. Please advise Kathleen Burgers, Director, Human Capital Management, by March 29, if your Regional classifier or another experienced classifier can participate. We request that Regions 3 and 5 provide the name of an Engine Captain who will best represent your respective Region.

Until this review is completed, you are directed not to fill any new or vacant GS-8
Engine Captain positions. If you need to fill an Engine Captain position, you may use the national interagency Avue Position File (AFM07C) for a GS-462-07 or a Regional standard position description at the GS-6 or GS-7 level. If the position was previously classified at the GS-8 level, you may include language in your vacancy announcement that the incumbent may be promoted non-competitively to the GS-8 level, subject to a classification review. If you have an open announcement for a GS-8 Engine Captain, you must advise potential selectees that the classification of the position is under review and that the review could result in the position being classified at the GS-7 level.

We are confident that an open and fair review of Engine Captain positions, both in California and elsewhere in the Forest Service, will result in a sound classification determination. We will advise you of the results of the review by April 21.

Questions may be directed to Gary Wilson, Branch Chief, Benefits, Pay, Performance and Classification, at (703) 605-0865 or via e-mail to gwilson@fs.fed.us or to Kathleen D. Burgers, Director, Human Capital Management, at (703) 605-4532 or via e-mail to kburgers@fs.fed.us.

/s/ Jacque Myers (for): /s/ Kent Connaughton (for):
HANK KASHDAN JAMES E. HUBBARD
Deputy Chief for Business Operations Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry

cc: Michael Bunten
pdl wo OPS HRM class officers
pdl wo OPS HRM employment officers
pdl wo OPS HRM personnel officers

Thanks for the heads up Melissa. Looks like some fun events coming up. Thanks for all you do.

Readers, if you haven't yet joined the 52 Club for the year, please do so. Get your co-workers to sign up. This is our Foundation. Joining the 52 is easy and it protects all of us should trouble occur. In this case, maybe folks could dig a bit deeper to help our great TX and OK volunteer firefighters who were injured. I'm sending my check in. Ab.

You really don't want to ask me how much I make per month. But thanks for the details, I think... Ab.

For Those Who Fell

To those who stir when they ring the bell
To those who fly for those who fell
To those who sleep on Storm King Hill
And to the call no longer will
Rise up and feel the dragons breath
Stood tall among us and then faced death
They humbly bring us to our knees
As we pray to God our Father please
Give us the strength to stand the test
To honor those who have gone to rest
Up on that mountain steep and tall
Remind us Lord that we can fall
And make us ever mindful still
That the sustaining fire of life can kill
We promised Lord to never forget
And to fourteen we owe a debt
And so each time I hear the bell
I go to fly for those who fell
Help me remember most of all
I as easy could also fall
Remind me of ten orders true
And eighteen things I should not do
Give me the strength of Angels wings
And wisdom to remember things I should not forget
And to fourteen I owe a debt
They left their moms, dads, husbands and wives
And won't be there to shape their children's lives
And so each time I hear the bell
You know I fly for those who fell

Chris M. Schenck, 4/2000

Thanks. Ab.

It's nationwide where the GS-8 Engine Captains Classification Audit applies. I think that happens April 4-8 in Portland. Like last year, it's one thing and another and the hiring process gets pushed back and back. Ab.

Casey,

With all due respect, our Store Managers, on average, have been with the company for over 13 years and average in excess of $100,000 in total compensation per year. In addition to the Store Manager position, there are three additional levels of restaurant management positions: 2nd Manager, 3rd Manager, and 4th Manager. Average annual compensation for these levels of management are: 2nd Managers - $50,000/year, 3rd Managers - $41,000/year, and 4th Managers - $33,000/year. In addition to cash compensation, all managers enjoy a comprehensive benefits package including paid vacations, a 401k program, and medical, dental, vision, and life and travel insurance coverage.

We also hire our entry level employees at $9.00 per hour. After a short period, these employees can rapidly progress to $12.00 per hour. We offer full benefits to all of our full time associates.

We are actively recruiting current and retired federal employees who think like Aberdeen. We expect future expansion to Missoula, Seattle, Salt Lake City, Denver, and Albuquerque. Come join the team!!!

All tongue in cheek....

In-N-Out Burger

Todd

Let me see if I've got this all correct: you make a career choice, with your eyes wide open about pay and benefits, to become a wildland firefighter on the Fed side of the road. You then start making some life-style choices: living in a high cost of living area, getting married, having babies, buying homes. These lifestyle choices exceed your earnings, and you're no different than a school teacher, wildlife biologist or nurse's aid in similar circumstances: you've made the choices, and they're tough ones, but the taxpayers have chosen not to give you greater rewards.

Remember that as a Fed, except for the locality pay, you're measured against the National Standard that applies in Adin CA, Baker City OR, Colville WA, and Rolling Fork, Mississippi. There are different levels of complexities in all these areas, but will probably never be recognized at the National Level, just like being paid as a GS-12 District Ranger in towns with 300 people and no resource conflicts versus being in Bend Oregon or Missoula Montana with non-stop conflicts on every resource management action.

People have to make choices, factoring in all their conflicting needs/wants/desires: early in my career, I decided that moving to Bend, Oregon was my career dream! By the time I became strongly competitive for jobs there, I knew that I and my family couldn't afford to live there, so we adjusted our goals and aimed for something different. Had I gone there, and let my lifestyle exceed my earning capacity, do you think the "Uncle Sugar" would bail me out?

The reason that "In & Out" or MacDonald's pays good money in your areas is only because they Cannot get anyone to work there for $5-6-7 per hour. It's called the "law of supply and demand" in the private sector. Right now, the USFS doesn't feel the shortage (nationally) by paying GS-7 or 8 wages for engine crew leaders, and so isn't motivated to find ways to pay more.

Please believe that I'm not insensitive to your economic concerns, but only trying to paint the picture as clearly as possible so that you don't spend your career frustrated and angry about issues will likely never see change at the National Level.
If the USFS cannot fill these jobs, and other agencies and/or contractors are not an acceptable alternative to fill them, maybe then there will be some movement forward on your concerns.

How long are you willing to wait?

Aberdeen

Tender R6

We posted on this last week. No doubt he should have had his nomex on, but when a kid firefighter vollie fell off his truck as it was driving away, our now injured firefighter jumped out of the truck and wrapped the kid in something (blanket, turnouts, who knows what?) that protected the kid as the fire burned over. My prayers are for him and his family and friends. His action was selfless.

Tender R6, I echo your words to everyone here... "Be safe out there!" and add, Mitigate the pre-entrapment risks. Every time! Ab.

I too was at the Safety Summit in Missoula last April to hear John speak, and I did not interpret his talk as negatively as apparently some others have. And that’s fine. To each their own. At least he got people to think about and debate some of these pressing issues. My hope is that John never has to write another book about some tragedy fire, and my guess is that he would agree. Sure, people can disagree with him and his stance on these fires, but in my mind, he’s on our side.

Couplemorechains

kd

Risk Communication:
www.pandemicflu.gov/rcommunication/

1. If the foreman is not directly responsible for his crewmembers, who is?
2. If the foreman is not responsible for those individuals, why would someone several links higher in the chain of command be held accountable for them in a legal setting?

I am not saying that mistakes weren't made at all levels, but much like South Canyon, when the Prineville foreman turned around on the line because he was uncomfortable, something should have clicked and triggered a reaction before the situation spiraled out of control. AND IN BOTH CASES THE CHANCE DID PRESENT ITSELF.

Monday morning quarterbacking and hindsight is always 20/20, so we will never know for sure what went through the minds of both foremen in each situation as it unfolded. What I know as a squaddy on an IHC, though, is that I am responsible for my men and I am accountable to them. I have worked on a rappel ship also, and our sop was that for any mission, the helicopter was dedicated to support for the folks on the ground and unavailable for maintenance or other missions. Whoever the dedicated helicopter manager was for the day was in charge of general oversight of the operation.

I am not trying to bash or bag on anyone, because all of the holes in the swiss cheese just happened to line up perfectly. My biggest problem with the Cramer debacle is that now the decision makers several rungs up the ladder are being held legally accountable for errors made on the fireground.

To me, this just creates a cult of fear, not a cult of safety. The message this sends to me is that if I make a mistake, it is the IC's fault, and secondly, that if I am the IC I can't avoid micromanagement without the risk of being found criminally negligent if something goes horribly horribly wrong.

Any lessons learned from the Cramer Fire seem, to me, to be buried beneath bureaucratic red tape and the threat of legal recrimination.

The real lesson learned -- Don't be a type III IC. Sad but true.

Class C Sagebrush faller

ps--food for thought. Aren't fires and prescribed burns much larger with higher intensities, on the whole, now more than they were in the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's?

Hey, if they can help, more power to them... if you know these folks, I think a lot of us would be very interested if they'd be willing to put up a little 'micropresentation' on theysaid, with maybe some more info on who they are, and (with the understanding that they might not be interested in full disclosure for patent/intellectual property reasons) some technical detail. I couldn't get the pdf file to open, so maybe it's there and I didn't see it. You have to admit that the lack of technical detail on the site kind of cuts into their credibility, as does the lack of names and reciprocal exposure from the Caldon side. I don't recognize your handle, but if you've been lurking long, you should know that there's some pretty well connected, and very well informed, people who contribute to the site. Through what forums did the Pyrorazor folks solicit involvement from the wildland fire community? If it's just two guys thinking outside the box, great, everything has to start somewhere, but at the risk of sounding incredibly cynical (and potentially hostile, which is not my intention), I'd love to hear back from them when they've raised some capital. Two guys, one website, and some good intentions do not an innovation make.

Nerd on the Fireline

Technically you are right because the FS Manual specifically says all supervisors are responsible for the safety of their subordinates, but there is nothing I could find in job descriptions, manual guidance, helibase operations or anything else in writing which defined who is responsible for safety of a helitack team clearing a helispot on a fire, large or small. Glad to hear you are among those who take the initiative to get it done safely, written down or not.

As we implement Doctrine it will take some serious work to boil down all the rules to those which are essential, clear, unambiguous and never to be violated, and then rely on well trained people who understand and practice safety, understand fire behavior and follow commander's intent, like you apparently do with those you lead and teach. My point to Class 3 Sagebrush Faller (great name - I am not good enough to claim Faller status) and Toolshed, who raised the question, was just to note that their question was a fair one, (thus the research) and the answer is not written down anywhere. Whether it should be written down somewhere or should be understood without it, is one of those issues the people implementing Doctrine will need to seriously consider.

Old Sawyer.

1) When was the last time you looked at the housing costs in and around
Missoula, Boise, or Spokane for example? and

2) When was the last time, if ever, were you on a district trying to manage
a fire program that has recruitment and retention problems?

Lobotomy

In regards to the PyroRazor company. They're concept caught my interest so I got to meet those folks involved. They're official job is with Caldon Biotech in an entirely different field (Read the PDf file on the Pyrorazor). However, because the devastation and fatalities they have read about on wildland fires, they wanted to create something that could help the community and firefighters. What you see in the web site is all CONCEPTIONAL (Just an idea). They are trying to research and work with whoever. They have asked anyone who likes to "Think outside the Box" in the wildland fire arena for advice and direction. When I spoke with them, they had this idea, but did not know where to go from there. I have referred them to San Dimas and Missoula Fire Lab. I know looking at this type of technology is a bit Sci Fi but so was the thought of ever having a 747 Airtanker or the pilots back 50 years ago who wanted to use crop dusters on wildfires. I believe it will take years of research before we ever see missiles or bombs being dropped on fires. However, I do see a large use with the UAV's on wildfire. Just think of an UAV that can stay up for 16 hours or more and provide real time information such as Recon, GIS Mapping, weather, fire behavior, heat signatures, etc.... So to put down the issue of this being a scam, it is not. It's just two guys thinking outside the box, and where would we be today if nobody did??

Geeknoid

Just a thought.
NZ Helitack

On most issues I agree with you, BUT I don't on this one. My guys are my and my supt's responsibility on a large fire incident, just like squads on a hotshot crew are the supt's responsibility even if they are working different sections of line.

Now with that said, Initial Attack may be different when you have to deploy multiple sets of rappellers on multiple fires. You still are responsible for properly sizing up that response and delivering your firefighters to a safe site. On a large fire -- as a helitack captain -- it is my and my supt's responsibility to make sure the areas that my firefighters are working  in is safe, no matter what their assignment, and that LCES is covered. We provide our own lookouts and rarely if ever rely on someone else. I would hope the experts you consulted would take another look at this. I would not want to work on a crew where the supt washes his/her hands of safe fire-ground operations as soon as they deploy their firefighters and return to helibase. Large incidents require additional levels of supervision than single tree lightening strikes just for the complexity of communication, size, and scale of operations.

Accountability goes a heck of a lot further than just taking the blame after things get scary, accountability is 3 dimensional. Accountability is your contract with your firefighters that you will seek out the safest course of action when deploying your crew, Accountability is to the agency that you will operate only to level in which you are trained and not purposely deviate from safe firefighting tactics. That you will provide for foreseeable contingencies and communicate them to your subordinates and supervisors. Lastly accountability is putting yourself on the mat if things do go wrong, take your lumps, and hopefully move on.

Maybe this is just my philosophy, but I would hope there are more helitack supts and capts that are looking out for their folks. As far as is this written down somewhere? I doubt it, but common sense overrides paperwork on the fire-ground.

I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've been doing this awhile and had this philosophy well before Cramer.

JD

Having been on 10 fatality fires throughout my career, this topic was near and dear to me. This post is not directed at anyone or at any policies. Just my thoughts.

I have to agree with you. I was at the Missoula presentation of Mr. Maclean also. For me, both his speech and his video showed disrespect for both the lives lost, and the survivors (families, friends, co-workers, students, etc....). It also showed a great misunderstanding of "human factors" and the study and prevention of the causes of fatality fires.

When I had heard that Region 5 had invited Mr. Maclean to be the keynote speaker at the Cal Yarborough awards, I was a little set back. I could only think to myself that "we" paid for this keynote speaker to sell and autograph his books...... I also wondered what Cal Yarborough would think even though I never met him. I also wondered what Paul Gleason would think.

After sitting back for a couple of weeks, I believe (and hope) that there must have been something more behind Mr. Macleans writings other than publicity and book selling. There is something, either from his dad's teachings and past in wildland fire, or something he has experienced in his career as a journalist that leads him to write about wildland firefighting in the style he does. None of us can understand his reasons unless he explains them to us.

Hopefully, when Mr. Maclean writes and speaks, he will consider that the subjects of his writings and speeches are people who are fallible. The people who buy his books are wildland firefighters, their families, and their friends. Wildland firefighters, families, and friends are deeply affected by everything that occurs in the "community".... be it said, done, heard, seen, or rumored. It affects us all in one way or the other.

When there is a fatality, escaped prescribed burn, near miss, or even a trivial review such as the GS-8 Engine Captains Classification Audit..... remember, the folks on the receiving end of "the stick" are people...... Treat them with the respect and dignity they deserve.... then lessons will be learned. Assign blame or assign guilt as most of our "investigations" and "reviews" do, then you lose the lessons learned again.

Just some gut feelings.

Lobotomy

P.S..... GS-8 Engine Captains (Regions 3, 4, 5, 8, and 9) need to get on the ball if they hope to maintain their GS ratings in the current "review". Ask the GS-8 Captains from Region 5 how they gained "lessons learned" in the last position classification audit. It's not a California thing.

We're working with the isp to get it back up. As some of you are pointing out, chat is out too. Ab.

Lately there have been some comments on this board about not getting called for positions that were listed "UTF" at the GACCs. There are a couple of glitches in ROSS that could make you unavailable. When you use the self status program, be sure you click somewhere else on the form after changing your status and then be sure to hit the "SAVE" button. If the change is still highlighted when you hit "SAVE", it reverts to the original setting.

If you have an "Unavailability Period" showing, make sure you remove it even if it has expired. If it is showing, you are not statused available even if the availability box is checked. Hopefully the folks at ROSS will fix these problems.

A special thanks to the folks at Central Nevada Interagency Dispatch Center for finding these problems and reporting them!!!

Please spread this information to all who use the ROSS self status system.

Thanks,
Radio Guy

I can only offer my condolences to the parents, who were brave enough
to speak up on the site.

Really wanted to wish all a happy St. Patty's day and rain to the plains.

A simple question, why cannot CDF share some of the S2T's with Texas?
Sure not needed here now.

And my condolences to the Fire Community and his family, on the loss of
Captain Patrick Henry.

RJM

After inquiring of experts and a lot of research, I never could find anything
in writing which places safety responsibility on a helibase manager or helitack
team supervisor, for on scene safety of Helitackers constructing a Helispot
n a remote part of a fire. Likely they may lack the factual knowledge to even
do so effectively from a distance. Nor is it in writing designating anyone else
in particular for this supervisory task. Seems to be a hole in our supervisory
structure unless someone takes the initiative to get such a crew truly integrated
into the operation with an assigned supervisor who can confirm LCES is in
place and keep it in place in a dynamic manner.

Old Sawyer

Come on WO, do you think we all live in crew housing? My kids eat from your allocated dollars!!

Look at Flagstaff, Denver, Santa Barbara, Vegas, Tahoe, and many more. I know Cali has different fire responsibilities in certain areas because I work here, but It's not just a Cali thing when it comes to cost of living. Retention doesn't matter to the WO because we just leave positions vacant or fill them with any warm body who fits the minimum quals. Retention will never be an argument the WO will look at. BOTTOM LINE is all they understand.

Feed Me!

Ab.

jd, I think it's hard to know another person's true intention. Our experience with vfd capt is that he has integrity. Maybe he just needs to hear more of your perspective behind the scenes. These deaths have not been easy for any of us. Ab.

Psychological research shows that in the face of a death, people want to be helpful to those who survive, friends and family. Research also shows that most people don't know exactly what to do or how to act to be helpful. What's helpful for one will not be helpful for another. It's easy to misinterpret the intent of what is being said or done.

Please don't fault the line officers for not knowing, if it appears to you that they don't. It's a very hard thing to get it right 100% for every person. My guess is that they're trying to be sensitive and aware and helpful. Often in that position, whatever they say or do will meet with someone's disapproval.

Mellie

I know I haven't been doing much besides lurking
lately, but I poked into the pyrorazor thing a bit.
For one thing, the website kind of reminds me a scam
that was running in central California for a
while...the company marketed 'the ultimate hanger'
which would hang anything anywhere, only $19.99, and
anybody who ordered it got a nail. Anyhow, did anybody
but me notice that there's nothing they claim to do
that you couldn't do with a waterballoon slingshot?

Also, they reference Caldon Biotech a lot, but the
Caldon biotech site never mentions them. I tried
calling the contact number, and it's Caldon Biotech as
well, but it's just a message, with no mechanism for
getting ahold of a real person, and no mention of
Pyrorazor on the message. If you do a websearch on
pyrorazor, you get nothing. The technical information
on the site is nonexistent, many of the links and
documents don't open, and the 'schematic diagrams'
look to be done in Microsoft Paint, and they don't
enlarge. Unless and until more substantial
confirmation (such as a Pyrorazor rep showing up on
the site, or at a wildlandfire conference), I'd just
class this as a very slick website construction
project done by a high school or college student.

Nerd on the Fireline

"Rumors" were solicited by the lawyer as I understand it. When you engage an audience with a question, it gives you deniability of a certain kind. Lawyers must know this? or am I too cynical?

We Abs hear all kinds of rumors here; we try to confirm/disconfirm them, or they don't make it to theysaid. We never heard that one, not even a whisper. You're the first person I know who mentions having heard it, besides the lawyer and the person who named the rumor. Ab. ©

I agree. Ab.

I’ve had enough experience with mobilization to know that Name Request/Suggests can
be a royal pain. At the same time, it can be extremely frustrating to wait for a resource
on an incident knowing that a qualified person is available, only to have the order come
back “UTF.” Seems like there should be some flexibility all the way around to make sure
needs are met with a system that doesn’t always work perfectly.

Still Out There as an AD

Matt Streck

Our best to Patrick Henry's family and friends. May he rest in peace. Ab.

The quote from the Mob Guide is correct and has been adhered to by NICC with very few exceptions this year so far, with the exception of some 'very special' requests. Ditto "name suggests", although they are filled more readily. Interestingly, when we get rockin' and rollin' at PL4+ if your grandmother's name is in ROSS and you name suggest/request her, the chances of her showing up are very good.

FT

On the Mist blowers, yeah, we use them all the time in SHORT grass. They
are pretty much ineffective at over a foot flame length, anything less than
1' & you can really make some progress. Just another tool to have in the
tool box, not effective on everything, but highly effective in very short
grass.

"Burnt" < got tagged with that one years ago & kinda like it.....

In response to the question about how R3 is doing red card issues so early in the season, by the way we have been fighting U/I fires here in New Mexico since November on at least a weekly basis. The powers that be in 2004 issued a memo, www.nwcg.gov/pms/docs/clarification.pdf, that the locals are in charge if it is within there response areas. I know there is a large federal operation going on in West Texas and they have been called in to assist. But here in New Mexico we did our standards class and pack test the first week of the new year, how fun that was getting the holiday food off so fast. So if that helps there you go, if not come on down we will get you pack tested on almost any day of the week somewhere in the state. Severity patrols are on going, the shot crews are coming on line in the next 2 weeks and the helitack is up and running already.

Welcome to the 2005 fire season that never stopped here.

Jeff C.

Can I have some of what's made you tipsy? Maybe I need a vacation...? Ab.

"The second 'remember' is that when firefighters are killed, every one of us has a high priority responsibility to study the event, learn from it and do whatever it takes to make sure it is never repeated. That has to occur at the smallest rural firehouse to the biggest city firehouse, and it must affect every firefighter-no matter what.

"And when we are done learning, we have to make sure everyone you run calls with learns too. Who gets that done? You. By spreading the facts. Not some of the BS that goes on in some chat rooms, bulletin boards and forums, but by all of us getting the facts from the reports and from the affected FD's, and putting it in the faces of those who go with us to fires. Include it in drills, trainings, e-mails, whatever it takes to keep this stuff in their faces so they-we-us cannot forget and will not repeat history. Keeping it in their faces works. We just have to want to do it."

Maybe I'm foolish enough to think that's a good plan. There is nothing false in our claims of improving firefighter safety.

vfd cap'n

CB

Does anyone know of a site that has posting of the various
kinds of hose packs past and present? I am helping a relatively new
fire fighter with setting up these packs.... and it's been a lonnnnng time
since I hoisted a hose pack!

well worn one

Signed: wanting to know more

I have rearranged my money in my Thrift Savings Plan to the G fund until
the avian flu problem either passes or happens. I had the bulk of my money
in the I and S funds (both overseas, high growth-high risk funds).

Peregrine

E-mail Ab if you would like my contact info.

DMR

NIFC is adjacent to the airport, as is the jump shack. Does NIFC have a gift shop? The Monument and Wildland Firefighter Foundation are very close by too. Have fun. Ab.

Just A short note to say that down-under we are thinking of the
firefighters in Texas and our thoughts go to the families that have lost
loved ones, we can only hope the weather give them a break which they
desperately need.

Take care and look up out there,
Snow
Tathra rural fire brigade.

JS

The feedback we have received from our members is that not only are the products tastier, the science behind them is far superior to Gatorade, Powerade etc. As a result of that feedback, the FWFSA has endorsed the use of Firefighter Brand products and hope to assist the company in introducing the product to more wildland firefighters this upcoming season.

Just as important as the science and taste is that a portion of gross profit from the sales of Firefighter Brand are donated to local and national fire organizations. In the case of products ordered by the land-management agencies, or any wildland firefighting group for that matter, the Wildland Firefighter Foundation will benefit from donations.

If you'd like further information on these products, please feel free to visit their web site or contact Bruce Burke, President at 203-847-9125 (tell him the FWFSA sent you) or 488 Main Ave. 2nd Floor, Norwalk, CT 06851.

We truly believe these are superior products. They benefit the firefighting community and we should encourage our wildland firefighters to seek out these products as often as possible.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association

The fire rips when the winds are up. Be safe.
Sally

Heres a great link listing TICC's response as of this morning to the texas fires.
lots of resources moving around.
http://tfsfrp.tamu.edu/wildfires/Branch.jpg (map)

eric

I have been in fire for only four years, all of which on seasonal handcrews. I have done some research on budgets, the way they affect agencies, etc. But a lot of it still does not make sense. I have come to the point where I need to decide if I am to join a state shot crew, or federal shot crew. Currently I work for a state type 2 IA crew out of the northwest. Both shot crews have a lot to offer, but I am still torn on which to go with. I want to be in this for the long run, but with all the talk of budgets, career positions, etc, I am not sure if a federal position is better than a state, or vice versus. Or, is one agency better in the long run, than another? I started off with a private crew, so I am not in tune with all this as I wish I was. Any pointers, tips, insights, would be helpful. I also apologize for a ramble of a email. Hopefully some of it makes sense.

thanks
undecided.

How Will Bird Flu Change Your Life?
A Look at What Could Happen at Home, Work, School and in Your Community

I did not attend the Chief Officers meeting and therefore have no knowledge of what rumors were or were not circulated. But rumors serve little purpose other than to cause pain, and such is evident here.

The loss you feel can only be imagined by we who have grown children near the ages of Jeff and Shane. Please know that they are still included in our thoughts and prayers.

I know of no responsible fire manager who for one moment gives serious consideration to the rumor you mentioned. We fire managers in the FS cannot fully understand this tragedy as so much of the report remains redacted. But from what we have learned, I believe we have made, and will continue to make changes to reduce the risk to future young firefighters.

It touched me to hear you speak of Shane as always being with you. God bless you both.

Old Fire Guy

I was there and saw what happened with my own 2 eyes and knew the situation was dire from the moment the fire blew. these young men put their lives on the line day in and day out. my opinion is that we (being the fire community) need to make sure these young men's memories are not tarnished by people who werent there (there being on a fire in general). we all know the risks. now we have to worry if we do lose our lives in a tragic fire situation (god forbid) we have to worry about being slandered and attacked after we're gone.

concerned contractor

Jodi and Steve, thanks for being the shining lights you are. You enrich
all you touch. I'm honored to know you.

Mellie

I have been available for over a week here in R6 TFLD/STEN ICT4
how come no call
i see the UTF list and still wonder are the local GACC's filling the orders?

Signed:
Want to Run N Gun but got to get out of the snow first.

Readers, this comes in from Jodi and Steve Heath, Shane Heath's parents, who also consulted with Diz and Bill Allen, Jeff Allen's parents. Shane and Jeff died on the Cramer Fire two and a half years ago. Ab.

Fire Community,

A fire friend brought to our attention that a speaker at the chiefs meeting felt a need to start a hurtful rumor about Shane and Jeff. We must correct this. It is not true. Those who brought it up and spoke about it failed to mention that it is not true.

Let me say at the beginning that it is hurtful that families have to defend their dead sons from untrue rumors. We shouldn't be here having to post this. Having to defend the boys makes us sad. (Yes, I know they were young men responsible for themselves when they died, but I'll forever call them my boys.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ms Roth, being a lawyer is no excuse. Being from Washington DC is no excuse. Not being a firefighter is no excuse. It is unprofessional and unfair for any human being to ask for rumors from an audience and then not dispel the rumor or support it with fact. Evidently you did neither. All I can conclude is that you wanted the rumor to appear true to suit your own purposes. You no doubt know that a rumor tossed out in the guise of a question can have a hurtful and damaging life of its own. Shame on you.

The fire community is a small community, a fire family. People feel strongly and are connected. Tossed out at such a prestigious meeting and not immediately rebutted, a rumor is what people might remember years later as a possible explanation for tragedy. The only problem is, this rumor is not true.

Mr. Maclean, as a writer, I'd think you would have proof of such a rumor before voicing it, or maybe I was misinformed and you write fiction, not nonfiction books. Shame on you.

Ms Roth asked "What were 'those guys' doing out there for 5-1/2 hours?" And the rumor you and Maclean say... is that they were smoking marijuana.

Not so. Shane's autopsy report shows he was clean. I have it right here. And the government entity awarding the cash settlement surely wouldn't have made the award to the boys otherwise. If you check the records, they never do.

Ms Roth, you said it was 5-1/2 hours.

Yes it was 5-1/2 hours from the time they flew out of Cove Creek until they were burned over, but what does that mean in context?

That day Shane and Jeff were just back from a slow, dry, uneventful fire assignment in Utah. They were happy to be home working in their mountains. The day was clear and bright.

They flew out of Cove Creek at 9:29 AM. By the time they flew over H2 and talked with the crew foreman about what needed to be done, rappelled, got their equipment down and ready, I doubt if they started cutting before 10:15 or 10:30. I'm sure that they took a few water breaks (it was a little warm that day; I think 103^o). They may even have stopped to eat a sandwich, who knows?

Their job that day was to make H2 a two-way and as safe as possible for helicopters and crews to land and take off from later, possibly even for a medium helicopter to have landing room. From the air it may have looked like only "a snag and 6 trees" needed to be cut, but when those boys got down there and sized it up, there was more to do: more than 100 trees needed to be cleared.

Shane loved to cut down trees, no doubt about that, but he also grew up doing the very best job he could do. Falling trees is time consuming, hard and dangerous work. Not all trees at H2 were easy. On large trees, the boys had to spot each other, make multiple cuts, work with wedges, and gauge the direction of the fall. In part, they were working along a ridge on sloping ground. Some trees were diseased. Those had to be handled carefully to be safe. They couldn't just fall the trees and let them lay. Some had to be cut into lengths and then dragged off or rolled away. No, it was not as easy as it looked from the air.

A smokejumper who was on the investigation team said "Don't let anyone make you doubt those guys were doing anything but working their asses off."

Ms Roth, unless you've walked the ridge, humped the slope carrying weight on your shoulders and cut trees, do you really have a right to question what they were doing or speculate about how long it took? Growing up on a large farm, Shane was taught to work hard and not do a job half-assed. Is it really a bad thing to say they did a better job than they needed to and that they worked hard for quite a while? Doing the job well, persisting at it, to us as parents, it says we raised them right.

June of 2004 we walked H2, and that ridge and came to understand so many things. We have seen all the work that Shane and Jeff had done that day. We sat beside the spot where Shane fell and died that day. It was so very hard. We sat there and sifted our hands through that spot and gathered the hooks and eyes and screws from his boots. A yellow nomex shirt had been laid down to mark where Shane had fallen that day. I picked it up to straiten it out and found that there was still a lot of ash underneath it, feeling that these ashes were a part of Shane I gathered them with great care and put them in a small leather pouch a wonderful friend had given me just for that purpose.

What went wrong? In my opinion, a lot of things. We'll never know exactly what. But I am sure it was a collective tragedy, a group effort or maybe a group oversight, not just one person's fault. The two boys were there on the mountain and working hard, thinking someone was watching the fire that seemed so far away. Alan Hackett failed to place a spotter to the east that day. Early in the afternoon Alan Hackett made the decision not to use H2, but failed to relay that to the Helibase so they could retrieve Jeff and Shane. He talked about having to get them off that ridge forty minutes before the burn over, but again failed to give anyone that order. Also early in the afternoon a decision was made to do a 30hr routine maintenance on one of the helicopters, making it unavailable for pickup.

What human factors led to Alan Hackett's oversight? It's reported that Alan had family problems. In addition to that, the report states that he was doing too many things: working on several fires, while continuing with forest responsibilities following a merger of two forests due to budget cuts. Alan was wearing several hats at once, too many hats to be safe.

On the evening of the 21st Randy Lambeth the FAO went to Rick Hafenfeld (Patty Bates husband) and the OSO and asked him to let Patty Bates (Alan Hackett's supervisor) know that Alan didn't have a grasp on the fire and things were going badly. On the morning of the 22^nd Patty approached Randy and said “Rick tells me you have a problem with Alan.” Randy went on to tell her of his concerns and that things were out of control. She made a not so nice comment and then told Randy that Alan would remain as the IC. So even though Alan's difficulties and unfitness were brought to her attention twice, she did not remove him from command.

And then the irony... the names and how the chance similarities in names confused radio communication.

There was Shane Heath at H2 and Heath Hand the crew boss at H1
There was Jeff Allen at H2 and Alan Hackett the IC.
Alan Hackett and others were talking to Heath Hand. Others were talking with various members of both crews. Normally in communicating, firefighters refer to other firefighters by their last names, but probably there was confusion on both the Heath and Alan names. Other people listening to the radio traffic could have easily gotten confused about who was talking with whom, who knew what, and where they were going on what ship.

Whatever the cause, there was information that never got to the boys. If they had been told that the plan to use H2 that night had been abandoned, or that they had no spotter to the east... If they'd known fire had rolled out from the ridge into the second drainage -- the Cache Bar -- and was taking off to the west, they would have known the dangerous new direction of the fire's advance. Instead they kept working, thinking the fire was to the west. If….If….If….

By the time a helicopter was ready to leave and attempt a pickup, the smoke was too thick -- visibility was zero. When the boys realized the smoke was too thick, their last communication was that they were "bugging out". They ran up the ridge to the west. Unbeknownst to them, they were running directly into the Cache Bar arm of the fire.

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

We're trying to move on. It is very sad to us that some of the people involved in Shane and Jeff's deaths won't own their own part in the creation of this tragedy, so they can move on, so we all can move on. As I mentioned, we don't believe it was any one person's fault. It was a cluster, created by a collective of people who were not aware, by agency policy and by circumstances of communication. If only Shane and Jeff could have had inkling ahead of time to turn down the assignment completely... How would they have known that? Maybe Shane and Jeff should have known to ask the right questions and keep on asking them. Hopefully firefighters in the future will do that. Shane and Jeff assumed their supervisors were fully functioning and watching their backs, which was clearly not the case. Hopefully supervisors in the future will truly supervise or excuse themselves from command. Hopefully their supervisor will supervise when a problem in the chain of command is brought to their attention, especially if it's brought to their attention repeatedly. It's called LEADING: you know, when in charge, take charge! And when any of you recognize that communication is unclear for whatever reason, similar names or otherwise, please step up and clear it up.

Are we angry at this rumor? Yeah we're angry - hurt angry - but Shane's right here always and he whispers, "Be strong Mom, Dad. I'm right here beside you and I love you."

Jodi and Steve Heath
©

Thanks Jodi and Steve.
More on the various Cramer reports and commentary from a number of people, starting here:
www.wildlandfire.com/arc/arc.htm#cramer and at coloradofirecamp.com
Photo of Jodi, Zack and Steve at the Boise Airport dedication of the wildland firefighter statue last year. It was our pleasure to meet and get to know them. Ab.

Our staff had the pleasure of meeting and talking with Bruce Burke, the president of the company, at a recent conference.  We were impressed with their selection of "hazmat free" beverage and food products and even more impressed with the companies commitment to returning a portion of their sales to local, state, and national firefighting support organizations including the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. 

Check out their informative website for details on a variety of good tasting (we sampled many of them at the conference) and "good for you" products. 

OA.

SB

"When and if I hear about reductions in firefighting resources confirmed by my
RF, the phones will be ringing and the emails will be flying all across this country.
Multiply that by “all of you” and I think we will be able to get our point across."

At the point the reductions are confirmed, it is too late for corrective action.

Sign me.... Better proactive than reactive

Parents of Thirtymile fire victim sue 2 Forest Service officials

Ken and Barbara Weaver of Yakima filed suit in U.S. District Court in Yakima on Tuesday, alleging that Forest Service employees Maureen Hanson and George Jackson violated the civil rights of their 21-year-old son Devin, one of four firefighters killed in the blaze.

The lawsuit accuses Hanson and Jackson of "impairing" a separate lawsuit the victims' families had filed against the companies that produced the emergency fire shelters used by the firefighters. That lawsuit was settled Tuesday. Terms were not disclosed.

The latest lawsuit alleges that Hanson, a Forest Service supervisor in Wenatchee, destroyed the actual shelters used by the firefighters. Jackson, a fire investigator working in Missoula, Mont., withheld "crucial" information about the shortcomings of the shelters from the families, the lawsuit contends.

Loss of this evidence forced the Weavers to settle their claims for much less than they otherwise would have, according to the lawsuit, which seeks at least $3 million in damages.

I wonder when Fed employees will face the same charges? Not!!

Heli Pilot

"Gale A. Norton, the first female secretary of the interior, yesterday
announced she is stepping down from her Cabinet post after more than five
years to pursue private-sector opportunities."

I thought that was what what she had been doing for 5 years as Secretary
(e.g., pursuing/enhancing the private sector)

Tongue in cheek(iness)

Hugh

“In a resignation letter to Bush, Norton said she is ready to leave government for a private sector job, which is likely to prove much more lucrative. After five years in Washington, the former Colorado attorney general from Denver said she and her husband hope to "end up closer to the mountains we love in the West."

"Mr. President, this department has climbed the mountaintop in terms of achieving the goals we set out to accomplish," wrote Norton, whose resignation takes effect at the end of March.

"Now I feel it is time for me to leave this mountain you gave me to climb, catch my breath, then set my sights on new goals to achieve in the private sector."

My hunch is that her resignation has less to do with a desire to “end up closer to the mountains we love in the West” than the fact that she is starting to smell like a dead fish in an administration that has recently been sprouting more leaks than the New Orleans levies during Katrina.

Another armchair quarterback,

The pyrorazor looks like another quack idea that will join the list of Really Stupid Inventions which includes firefighting blimps, plastic waterbombs, and other poorly thought out inspirations. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that this website is part of a scam to fool some unsuspecting suckers into investing in this farce. Nice graphics though.

Misery Whip

Squeak trees, now there's a good 'un. Ab.

From the Rx-300 class the book answer for accountability (which I think is pretty good) is:

1. Do you have a plan?
2. Is it a good plan?
3. Did you follow the plan?

#1 seems like a Darwin Award question.
#2 is still an issue, much to my frustration. I was part of an Rx program review and looking at their burn plans, and they were garbage. This was a unit with a large Rx program (and a large history or Rx escapes). Other plans from our agency and others are sometimes lacking, especially in having a verifiable prescription.
#3 seems like it is most often the result of a plan that does not meet the #2 criteria. (I did not think we needed that many engines.) Even if that was not a contributing factor in an escape the Burn Boss will get crucified for not following a plan.

I was on two project fires in the 1970s that were escaped Rx fires. 1 resulted in a fatality, I don't know that we did any better in the old days.

Unpredicted high winds = act of God.......If that was the case you can bet that the NWS is actively looking into it through their internal review process. They have a formalized process for anytime they miss an event, such as a tornado with no tornado warning in place.

Rx fire is an unquantifiable tradeoff. How do you measure the number of houses that did not burn because of treatments next to communities? Any time you strike a match there is some level of risk. What level of risk are individuals and agencies will to accept? I am willing to accept as much risk as there is......as long as questions 1, 2, and 3 are answered yes.

Sorry for the lecture.

6

KD

Some of us are interested in communicating and understanding and learning something. This forum is about sharing  information. Occasionally it gets heated, but firefighters usually find they have more in common than they thought, especially when there's good info provided. When the barrels go down, more info usually comes out. Stick around if you like, you'll see... Ab.

Steve Burns (from Oregon) who was in the dozer accident in Texas is still in the hospital in Texas. He'll be there a while. He has plates in his hips and healing -- to get good enough to go home -- is a long slow process. The Foundation is paying his house payments until the financial waters calm down.

Destiny Horton --the worst hurt of the 7 volunteer firefighters that were burned over in Oklahoma -- is undergoing further surgery. Both his arms will be amputated from the elbow down and he'll loose his left foot. He was driving the truck when a kid fell off the back. He stopped, ran back and threw either a blanket or a fire shelter over him. The kid was relatively OK, but Destiny was severely burned. Burk was able to contact Destiny's mother-in-law after the accident. She said the community and extended community in OK are providing lots of support at this time. The Foundation will keep in touch and see if they need help later.

Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks for your concerns.

Vicki Minor

My best wishes for their healing. Ab.

Misery Whip,

New guy here. See you here bunches. 35 years retired wildland, and
like most of those here.. "been there, done that". Congrats to all.
Regarding the Hotlum Burn................... you are correct in
saying the winds were 60 to 80. I happened to be coming thru on 97
that day as it crossed from south to north over 97. It was burning as
if it were late September of a dry year.... there were USFS rigs, FPD
rigs and others rolling up and down the highway with their reds
flashing brightly................... laughable to me. At one point I
tried to exit my pick-up against the wind... NOT!! A steady 50 with
gusts well over 75 to say the least.

Now to comment some. You write that the poor single dispatcher was
working three (WOW>>THREE?) fires and did not hear the Red Flag
warnings................. three fires is child's play for a
dispatcher on winter time fires. Did the budget cuts you refer to
take away her hearing???
You also comment on contract crews with falsified training
records...... bad for the Department and shameful doings by the
contractor................... however, do you really think that the
outcome would have been different if they would have had the
legitimate training............... not really.
Just getting started.......... more to follow.... film at eleven.

DANNYBOY

Thank you for your time.
Kelly Soulliere

Another armchair quarterback

Slick marketing, with a piece of the elkbath photo at the end... Ab.

DC(ret)

Your latest post was right on. I have become nauseated reading the
he said / she said over this incident. While both sides have had good
points, they both seemed to be laced with a little emotion or anger.

A good point, experienced analysis, and a civil tone, is what makes
this forum a great learning tool for all of us in wildland fire (Green,
Red, or Purple).

Fireout

The things to think about, as far as crew carriers are concerned, are how
many miles are you going to put on them and how much time your crews are
spending in them. Crew buggies are great if you're spending 110 days on
fire because you have all of your equipment and the guys have their own
little "space". The Ford and International carriers aren't cheap. The
thing about using SUV's is their fuel economy and efficiency for long
hauls. Here in the Southwest we see crews from the Southeast,
predominately, on fires with these types of vehicles. Most of these guys
are running with 3 SUV's and a couple of 6- packs for their gear. Most of
the MEL crews (San Juan, Warm Springs, Navajo) used these until they got
their crew buggies. The SUV's are fuel efficient for crew operations but
the sacrifice is crew comfort and long range affordability (diesel engines
in the crummies). Another thing to think about is CDL regulations. The new
International buggies are over 26,000 lbs, so you have to certify your
drivers.

Hope that helps.
R3 Hotshot

-thank you for your time-
KYle

What forest are you from? You are either misinformed
or your forest is in for a boot in the ass. My forest,
in R-5, has cut back all our engines from 7 to 5 day a
week staffing, cut funding in training, are not
staffing lookouts fulltime, are not filling positions,
have dropped many vehicles from the fleet (sharing
vehicles), due to the 5 day staffing on engines are
only hiring a couple temps, we are looking at what
engines and possibly what crews we can cut to
"survive" within our budget. "Business as Usual" I
don't think so.

Sign me,
bummed and broke

Line Officers at the Chiefs Meeting told the WO reps that come the end of the month, they would cut engines that are not funded. They say we can't start the season on a maybe. People put themselves at risk on a maybe.

These are Line Officers in areas with tons of interface and multi-million dollar homes (that do have safety clearance around them) and reservoirs at risk. You can bet your bottom dollar if word doesn't come down from Mark Rey to OK those budgets and this leads to engines being unstaffed and if the area burns, it will be Mark Rey held accountable.

How about writing Mark Rey.

They could think of it this way: If they give the money, they get the political ball off their backs.

• Enough fire forces mean we won't have an increase in Initial Attack escapes.
• The Hispanic Settlement Agreement folks will continue to feel the FS is doing its best. We certainly provide the cover on that legal arrangement.
• Less Severity money will need to be requested to fight those big costly fires we're likely to have.
• And the inside new legal info from that lawyer <shark> Debra (can't remember her last name) from DC who spoke...
  She said that with fire now on the radar of OIG & OSHA, managers on up the chain can be cited even if they don't know about what actually happens on the ground way down under their command. So, cut the budget that cuts staffing for a bunch of engines... fodder for the legal sharks? (Seems a bit far out, unfair and topsy-turvy. Maybe someone should follow up to see if this could occur.)

OK, 'nuf for now. Bye to all you dudes and dudettes and doodahs.

Tra la, <skipping through hail!>
Mellie

Dannyboy

Aviation Special Investigation Report
Special Investigation Report on
Emergency Medical Services Operations

NTSB Number SIR-06/01
NTIS Number PB2006-917001
PDF Document (2.6 M)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

USDA Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Briefing Paper
Date March 3, 2006
Topic: Comparing the 2005 and 2006 AD Pay Plan

Issue: The 2006 AD pay plan will have 12 pay bands (AD-A through AD-L) vs. the previous AD-1 through AD-5. While the majority of the positions will have an increase in pay rate; some position’s rates will be reduced due to classifications and leveling.

Background: In 2004 the National Wildfire Coordinating Group asked the Incident Business Practices Working Team to analyze the use of the AD pay plan, its covered positions and associated pay rates. In collaboration with Subject Matter Experts and Human Resource Specialists, positions were classified and a revised pay plan was developed that clarified language and developed consistent uses and pay rates across agencies and geographic areas.

Key Points: The original revised plan proposed for 2005 set pay rates, based on job classification and evaluation of duties at the equivalent of a step 1 in the WG/GS pay scale. This caused the rates for approximately 80% of the positions in the plan to go down. Concerns about the decreases put the proposed plan on hold until further analysis and an OPM review could be completed. In 2005, the 2004 pay plan, including rates, was utilized.

For 2006, DOI and FS Human Resources pay specialists agreed to utilize the mid level of the GS/WG pay scales in the rate calculation formula. By calculating the formulas with the mid-step, the majority of the positions would receive an increase in pay, however approximately 38% would still go down, primarily the Unit Leader and Strike Team Leader positions.

In order to reduce these impacts, a proposal to “freeze” the rates for these pay bands at the 2005 level has been agreed to by DOI and Forest Service Fire Leadership. Once annual cost of living adjustments bring these rates to the 2005 levels, they would then increase at the same increments as the remainder of the pay bands. This may result in these positions not seeing an increase for several years. Alaska and Hawaii rates are not affected by this proposal. In this scenario 21 positions would still receive a decrease in pay, due to the classification of the positions placing them in more appropriate pay bands. Statistically, these 21 positions comprise approximately 5% of all ADs hired annually.

Many of the most critical and utilized positions filled by the AD community will have rate increase from 10 to 15% from the AD-1 through 5 rates used the past three years.

DOI hires 69% of the casuals nationally; FS hires 31%. 75% of the casuals hired during the period 2000-2004 fell in the AD-1 through AD-4 rates classification with 50% of those FFT2 (firefighter type 2).

Adjustments to the plan can be made through an established annual review process. Details of this process are being worked on collaboratively with Human Resources.

Annual rate increases to the plan will correspond to the “Rest of US” Federal pay increases.

Contact: Mary Ann Szymoniak 208-387-5944 or Emmy Ibison 406-329-3463

SAR

See you all in the SW soon,

Nepper

It's not that people are confrontational, it's that we come from different agencies and contract organizations and some are retired while some are still "in the loop". We have different perspectives. We share them.

CDF has always worked at Public Relations on fires. They really WORK IT from what I see. I wish we could do as well. They know the value of having the public on their side. CDF has avoided at all costs the appearance of mistakes and/or wrongdoing. That's hard to do when there are now millions of rules and procedures to be followed, and lawyers and the public are cynical of government and expect firefighters to be "held accountable" in a very rule bound way and it's all very emotional with fire. CDF has been and is working daily at staying out from under the scrutiny of the state level equivalent of OIG, OSHA, etc that the feds have to deal with.

I think it is only a matter of time, a short time, before CDF will be thrust into the lawyers limelight (thrown to the sharks) and made to adhere to the same legal morass following any problem -- as we feds are now. I thought it might happen with the last CDF tragedy, but you all dodged the bullet. I'm glad for that. When the lawyer sharks get their teeth into CDF, you may get on the same page as the rest of us feds ff with respect to more serious leadership training and common standards of operation we all should be agreeing on.

Regarding learning, you're preaching to the choir on that. Professional firefighters, we train and learn all the time. God, Mother, apple pie and training as my dear old dad used to say.

NorCal Tom

He expects it to come to the US via migratory birds within the next 3 months.

www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/conditions/03/09/chertoff.bird.flu/index.html

Click on the flight path video clip. In his brief talk he says the USDA knows how and will take care of it.

Mellie

Move to Idaho...that'll cure whatever ails ya. Maybe you picked up something
from those darn firefighters in Reno.

Get well soon.
Casey

This Ab's got it too, and I never get sick... Nonstop coughing, serious lung involvement. Doc this morning. I'm reassured it's not bird flu because I'm not dead yet, but that's about the only upside. Ab.

AV

Better than the roughouts though; I feel are the mountaineering style boots many hotshots and jumpers have switched to. Do a search on theysaid and you will get some intel on that phenomenon (hopefully that doesn't complicate your decisions)! Specifically the Lasportiva Makalu. Word of caution- measure the pair in your size to make sure you are at or above the 8" minimum limit

RogueDrogue

I wasn't fighting fire in the 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's when no one apparently made a mistake on a Rx fire due to their superior ability and knowledge, however, I have spent a good portion of my career since 2000 studying the mistakes that killed more than a few of our fellow firefighters in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Nostalgia can be alot like a dog enjoying the taste of its own vomit.

007

Forest Service Eyes Outsourcing Two-Thirds Of Workforce

JS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

March 7, 2006

The Honorable Senator Pete V. Domenici
Chairman, Senate Energy & Natural Resources Committee
364 Dirksen Senate Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Senator Domenici:

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association is a national employee association whose members are federal wildland firefighters employed by all five land management agencies. Our members span the entire spectrum of fire positions from entry-level firefighter to forest fire chief and even includes a U.S. Attorney.

We are writing to you and other members of the committee to apprise you of our serious concerns with what we consider to be fiscal mismanagement by the Forest Service and misleading statements from it’s leadership as it relates to funds sought from, or appropriated by congress for fire suppression & preparedness budgets over the past several years, including the recent committee hearings on the FY ’07 Forest Service Budget.

As I indicated, the breadth of our membership provides our Association with ample data from those that actually perform fire suppression and those that command such incidents. Clearly the information we have provided to a variety of congressional offices over the years is information the land-management agencies and in fact OPM prefer that we not divulge to Congress.

Further, as a result of our information passing frequent credibility tests on Capitol Hill, we have been able to develop significant bipartisan relationships in an effort to educate members of congress as to what is actually happening on the fire lines. As a result, we are honored to have a bipartisan group in Congress supporting H.R. 408, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act. This legislation is revenue neutral and would require the land-management agencies to become more cost-effective and efficient in the manner in which they utilize appropriated funds for fire suppression & preparedness.

Just a year ago on March 2, 2005, Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth appeared before your committee regarding the Forest Service FY ’06 Budget Request. A member of the committee expressed concern for the reductions in the USFS fire preparedness budget to which Chief Bosworth replied: “ With the Forest Service FY ’06 preparedness budget, the agency is committed to maintaining firefighter readiness comparable to the FY 2005 level without sacrificing firefighter safety.”

Chief Bosworth was asked to identify the FY ’06 preparedness funding for each of the 10 regions. His answer totaled $561,333,000. Congress appropriated $ 676,000,000. Our obvious questions:

• Where did the other $114,667,000 end up & who approved it?
• How will this reduced firefighting capability affect firefighter/public safety?
• How will this affect resource & community protection?

More recently on February 28, 2006, Chief Bosworth again appeared before your committee to discuss the president’s budget proposals for the Forest Service. In typical eloquent bureaucratic rhetoric, the Chief proceeded to tout the accomplishments of the Forest Service.

In discussing Forest Service successes, his comments indicated that the “Forest Service controlled 99% of all unwanted and unplanned fires during initial attack.” While that may sound impressive, it has far more to do with Mother Nature and a mild fire season than Forest Service policy.

Most disturbing is that while touting the 99% figure and all of the successes, he failed to alert the committee that according to the National Wildland Fire Outlook Report for February through June 2006 prepared by the Predictive Services Group from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, as of February 3, 2006, 340,589 acres had already burned nationally, nearly 10 times the 10-year average for that date of approximately 49,000 acres!

On the day Chief Bosworth was providing testimony before your committee stating that the agency was committed to maintaining firefighter readiness without compromising firefighter safety and Mark Rey, Under Secretary of Agriculture was assuring the committee that “ the Forest Service & DOI will maintain sufficient readiness resources to suppress more than 98% of wildfires on initial attack”, Forest Service Fire & Aviation Director Tom Harbour was at the Forest Service’ Chief Officers conference in Reno Nevada confirming significant cuts throughout the Western United States. The preparedness resources Congress has appropriated funds for but which will not be funded by the Forest Service in FY ’06 in California alone are:

48 fire engines
7 Type 1 hand crews
1 Type 2 hand crew
12 water tenders
Misc. other resources (prevention, dispatch, dozers etc.)
A total of 515 firefighters

According to Region 5 officials at the conference, they indicate they will be "trying to find ways to juggle around funds to make sure there are no cuts of equipment…so far." The regional office indicates R5 will be at MEL (most efficient level) minus 20, in other words 80% MEL. As a result some forests are already reporting they will be down to 50% firefighting production capacity/capability on any given day.

We believe you and others on the committee would agree that given the FY’06 wild fire outlook, such cuts significantly increase the risk to the health & safety not only of our firefighters, but our Nation’s citizens.

Why the cuts? We believe the Forest Service has systematically misused appropriated funds from both the Preparedness and Suppression budgets to fund other non-fire programs that have nothing to do with the intent or purpose of the National Fire Plan.

As an example, you may recall that at the recent committee hearing, Chief Bosworth indicated the Forest Service had begun its Business Operations Transformation Program which, according to the Chief would, among other things, advance the efficiency of its “budget & finance” operations. He specifically referenced the Albuquerque Service Center which became operational in 2005. Sadly, he did not inform the committee that in order for the center to become operational, the Forest Service raked $100,000,000 off the top of the fire suppression budget leaving many engines understaffed and some unmanned.

Senator, we are not in the business of criticizing government agencies. Our goals & objectives are to improve the pay, benefits & working conditions for our Nation’s federal wildland firefighters. These “all risk” firefighters risk their lives throughout the year, not only responding to wildfires and a myriad of emergency incidents but to FEMA assignments where they work without being paid proper overtime.

As we seek continued support for HR 408 and work to educate the Senate so as to secure a companion bill, such education becomes increasingly difficult when the agencies who routinely respond to such legislative proposals as being “too expensive” are allowed to go unchecked and misuse appropriated funds intended for our firefighters in their efforts to protect our Nation’s natural resources and it’s citizens real & personal property.

We urge you and others from this committee to start asking some serious questions and refrain from simply accepting the year to year bureaucratic rhetoric provided by the agencies. Our firefighters and the taxpayers of this country deserve no less. We would be honored to assist these efforts in any way we can.

Respectfully submitted:

Casey Judd
Business Manager

I checked around and you're right. Thanks for tutoring us, shock jock. Ab.

“I don't want to start a witch hunt regarding the causes of the Hotlum escape, but I do believe that someone or a group of someone's should be held accountable. In California, as you know, it is common to cite the individual who lit the fire for criminal action and to hold them or their company liable for civil damages.”

And then Viejo said, “I don't like incompetence in any agency and will comment on it as the acts occur.”

That’s pretty strong stuff. These aren’t hypothetical people you’re talking about, the people associated with the Hotlum escape are real flesh and blood people who right now are going through one of the worst experiences that any firefighter can experience. Every nuance of every detail on that burn is being scrutinized by investigators and their peers. No matter what the outcome, this incident will haunt these folks for the rest of their careers.

I find it a little sad that a former firefighter would attack these people publicly before even knowing what the facts were. I expect hysteria from the public, but not from people who should know better.

So, which is more rude or unfair; someone who uses hypothetical questions and stinging humor to tweak an anonymous person’s ego on a website, or someone who accuses real human beings of incompetence and demands punishment without knowing what the facts are, especially at a time when those people really could use some support and empathy?

By the way, rumor has it that 60-80 mph winds (!) blew out the Hotlum burn. Do you still feel as smug about your call for punishment as you did before?

The beauty of this site is that it provides a forum for many different opinions. But if you, or anyone else, want to use this site in the future as a venue for attacking honorable firefighters, then you can anticipate another response from me.

Misery Whip

To expect that everything will go right 100% of the time is delusional, which I think much of the public expects this. Look at the FEMA issue with Hurricane Katrina. The public seems to think that FEMA is a national fire department standing by to rush to the rescue. In my opinion, FEMA should change their name to the Federal Emergency Check Agency (FECA). (Somebody find a L for that acronym!) FEMA was never intended to act in that manner but the public expects it too anyway.

I also think that our some of our leaders worry more about public perception and their careers than doing the right thing and backing our ICs when things go wrong. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the IC of the Cramer incident had requested a Type 2 team to take over the day before the fatalities. I assume it was because he thought it was getting beyond his ability to handle the fire. Where rules broken on Cramer? Yes. Is the IC responsible? Yes. As were many others who took part in that fire. I was not there, but I acted as an assistant instructor for several classes that members of the Indianola Fire Crew attended. I wish there was something I could have done to prevent that whole incident.

I understand that much of the discussion was about prescribed burns, but the issue about lack of support remains the same in my mind. I try to approach wildfires and prescribed burns with the same attitude.

You all keep on posting and defending your views. You are all a lot closer than you know. But I have to have a petty parting shot to all three of you..... I am calling you ALL DUDE,DUDE,DUDE!
:>)
Have a safe season,
Domaque.

Good request. Lets get those letters coming in from all over the US. Ab.

That being said, when it's time for me to put a crew together, I always try to get the seasonals first and the permies last. But what salary someone makes doesn't really concern me; it's their experience and attitude. It really is a drop in the bucket compared to heli-mopping, stuff that gets wasted at camps, etc.

If the FS REALLY wanted to save money, they might look at how much it is costing to do "baseline" physicals for all arduous WCT takers. Blood work, vision, (EKGs for everyone over 40) is not cheap!! Or is that only my region that is doing this?

"Grandma"

HAW HAW, ya right, great innuendo. We have posted everything that has come into our mailbox from you. Sometimes our spam filter sorts out a variety of monikers/contents, especially if I am out of town and working from my laptop. It often seems to be more attuned to possible crap as well as sometimes filtering non-crap that comes in... Hey, feel free to email all your friends as an alternative. In many cases when people plan to do something, it's good to plan and execute behind the scenes. I'd also be happy to copy and paste your messages and send them to those who have shown an interest. Let me know. Ab.

Here's an example of a fire budget letter a friend sent to his congressmen and women. Feel free to modify and use it. Send it to both your Senators and to your House of Representatives person. You might also want to send a copy to Jerry Lewis, head of the Appropriations Committee. I heard firefighters saved his home during the 2003 firestorm in Southern California. He has some control over the purse strings. Get friends and family to send it. We need to do this.

Hardcopy with a stamp is best. There's something impressive about the stack of letters getting bigger and bigger. Here's where you can look them up: on the Contact your congressman. I'm having a "write your congressman" party Friday night... fun way to get it done.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Honorable Congressman/woman (Name)
(Address) Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Dear Congressman/woman (Name),

I am writing you today to express my concerns over how the Forest Service is implementing it's FY 2006 Fire Preparedness Budget. With the current direction, public and firefighter safety will be at risk this fire season.

The FY 2006 fire preparedness budget is $676 million, a slight decrease of only $500,000 from the previous year. The Forest Service has been misusing this allocation to fund other non-fire programs that have nothing to do with the intent or the purpose of the National Fire Plan.

Congress approved the $676 million for fire preparedness. Because the Forest Service has been misusing these funds, significant cuts are possible throughout the Western United States. These are the preparedness resources that are "unfunded" for this fiscal year in California:

1) 48 Fire Engines
2) 7 Type 1 Hand Crews
3) 1 Type 2 Hand Crew
4) 12 Water Tenders
5) Misc. Other Resources (Prevention, Dispatch, Dozers, etc.)
6) A total of 515 firefighters.

Regarding the FY 2006 budget, Under Secretary Mark Rey said, "The Forest Service and DOI will maintain sufficient readiness resources to suppress more than 98% of wildfires on initial attack. This represents the same approximate level of readiness that has occurred over the past several years."  I am sure you will agree that Mr. Rey mislead Congress by this statement. A loss of 515 firefighters is not "the same approximate level of readiness".

I am requesting that you take a look into this problem and provide congressional oversight over the Forest Service. This problem is occurring throughout the United States. Preparedness funding and its improper use to fund other programs within the Forest Service is a hazard to the safety of our firefighters, the public, and our communities.

Thank you, as always, for your time on this critical subject. Quick action by your office and Congress can correct this problem before fire season arrives. I can be reached at (xxx) xxx-xxxx or by e-mail at xxx@xxxx.xxx

Sincerely yours,

(Your name)
(Your address)

I personally I have worked with this crew on many fires last year. I believe Joel is the sup or at least was last year. They came across as a great crew. Always willing to help our shot crew with any possible help. My sup had a lot of good to say about them as did our crew. One thing, they are NOT lazy. I would go for it.

skimore

I guess we would do everything right if we did it our way.

To add a response to viejos' how the people "expect professionals", he should go back to basic 190. Three factors that influence fire behavior are fuel, weather, and topography. With WEATHER BEING THE LEAST CONSTANT.

On all the prescribed burns i've been to, we have had the normal forecasts, spot forecasts, and anything else that was relevant toward weather. After having all that information, we still delegated people to take weather. If it is that important for a burnboss to have people taking weather at hourly increments to see if the weather stays the same, then I think it's possible an unexpected wind event could happen. Also, look how often forecasts are actually right; half of the time they are not.

I think they should change the title incident commander to infallible commander due to the fact that if they even look at someone crosseyed they're criticized.

AKH

If you look on our Links page under jobs, there's a link to hotshot crew info nationwide and contacts. It does not appear that they have a web page. Anyone have more information? Ab.

Been contracting for several years now and there never seemed to be a
problem of under staffing on the fires. The problem was there are too many
contractors wanting to fight fires, so a lot would get called out from a
few days a season to none at all! This is a problem that is hard to deal
with. The USFS is trying to come up with a way to limit the amount of
Tenders and Type 6 Engines in Region 6. That way we all can get more
work and the ones that do work will be high quality contract crews. I for
one do not want to be on the cutting room floor, so I will do my best to
provide the best service and equipment I can.

This is a problem because a lot of people think you can make a killing fighting fires.
They come into the program and get a big surprise: they don’t work most of
the year. They make a big investment in equipment and the bills come rolling in
to be paid and they sit at home wondering why they are not on the fires.

Problem is, they only need so many so many crews and pieces of equipment
to do the job. The other problem is there is only so many fires during a
season to be put out. It is a risk to go into this line of work. The ones
who can stick it out and have their equipment paid for have a better
chance of success doing it.

If I was to buy 8 Tenders and expected them to be put to work all year,
 it would be a joke. Try to keep 8 qualified drivers all insured, 8 Tenders
all insured and maintained and then not roll for 6 months! Big time cash
flow problem and a disappointing end to a business adventure. So the
trick is to stay small so you can afford to not work all the time and
hope for the best. You are not going to get rich doing this line of
work and as long as there are still people out there thinking you will,
there will be too many contractors competing for the same work.

R6 Tender

We must remember that the leather used for rough outs and smooth out boots are the same. How one would hold more water than the other is a mystery to me. I must admit I am a little biased towards the rough outs though, they are the most comfortable boots I have used and I no longer wear my smooth boots. I regularly sleep in my rough outs, they are that comfy.
\
Jay

Catching up on my reading; I was interested in the discussion on Diversity Hiring at the Redmond Smokejumper Program. If I understand it correctly; trained seasonals, most likely from last year’s rookie class, did not get hired back at Redmond to make room for rookie diversity candidates to be trained this year.

If my memory serves me, it was just about twenty years ago that this same tactic was used at Redmond. The trained jumpers that got passed over eventually were reinstated after grieving their case. Bill might want to research the diversity programs at other bases to find out how they have avoided this unfortunate situation.

Pitch Pocket

-CDF Chief John Hawkins:
"An IC's Perspective on the Cedar Fire"

-USFS Safety Chief Ed Hollenshead:
"Doctrinal Change"

-Dr. Jennifer Thackaberry-Ziegler:
"Ethical Dilemmas in Wildland Fire Safety"

Reduced registration rates are available through March 14.

The conference will be in Pasadena, California, April 25-27, 2006, with an optional Staff Ride (or field trip) on April 28. The Staff Ride will be an opportunity to learn from and explore the circumstances surrounding the nearby Loop Fire of 1966, which was a disaster for the El Cariso Hot Shots.

More information can be found on the IAWF web site at:
www.iawfonline.org/summit/overview.shtml

Bill Gabbert
International Association of Wildland Fire

Sounds like a good one. Ab.

Someone wanted more info on burning star thistle. This is from my
experience. Burning to control most thistle plants needs to take place
after the heads have formed on the plants, but before they've gone to seed.
In my area, this can be anytime early to late june depending on weather.
Usually this time of year, the thistle itself will not burn, but the heat
generated will kill it. For this reason a head fire is best, backing fires
don't usually put out enough heat to do the job. It can take anywhere from
3-7 years of burning, every year, before the seed bed has been gotten rid
of, so if you miss a year, you could be starting over again. For firing,
the mixture in the torch is not that important, however 3:1 is good.
Fuzee's will also work fine.

Another method not involving fire is irrigation. Or just manually pulling
up the plants every year before they go to seed.

Anyone else have any ideas and/or experience doing this????

TC

KD

In the late 80's I was on a BD crew in R6. We primarily were doing slash burns in old growth logging shows. The University of Washington sent a research team out to walk with us carrying air filter/moniter backpacks to see just what we inhaled and at what levels. We never heard anything official but one of the students later told us it was amazing how far over any and all safety levels we were for inhalents in the workplace. I always wondered if the reason nothing official was ever said or announced was because they were afraid they would have to pay us more, I.E. hazard on RX. We sucked way more smoke on RX than we ever did on wildfire. On the other hand, how else are we supposed to do our jobs?

KD

Our representatives are looking for good information from professional
wildland firefighters.

Todd from NorCal

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Bingaman Raises Concerns About Proposed Cuts to Forest Services Preparedness Program

Contact:
Jude McCartin
Maria Najera
703 Hart Building
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20510
(202) 224-5521

WASHINGTON – At a Capitol Hill hearing today, U.S. Senator Jeff Bingaman today said he was very concerned about the White House's proposal to cut $10 million Forest Service's Fire Preparedness program.

"Parts of the West are experiencing some of the driest conditions on record. In the Southwest, we are struggling to prepare for what looks to be a catastrophic fire season with a Fire Preparedness program that was cut by more than 20%—and that was on top of cuts from the year before. This budget proposes yet another cut of $10 million to the national Preparedness program, dramatic cuts in State Fire Assistance, and virtual elimination of the Fire Rehabilitation program," Bingaman said.

"The lack of funding for hazardous fuels reduction projects also is a concern. We have tens-of-thousands of acres of projects in the Southwest alone that are ready for immediate implementation but for a lack of funds. The local staff of the Forest Service has worked very hard with our communities to put these projects together. They have done their part. This budget does not do its part to get those projects off of the shelf and on to the ground," he added.

Bingaman made his remarks at a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing on the fiscal year 2007 Forest Service budget. He is the top Democrat on the committee.

Bingaman is committed to working in a bipartisan way to ensure there is enough funding in this drought year for firefighting and post-fire restoration.

About the star thistle, you got any eradication info, even just word-of-mouth wisdom on what to do and when for best results? I heard (well, someone held up fingers during one of the talks in Reno) that the fuel ratio for drip torches is 3:1, I assume that's  fuel oil to gas?

unsigned

I got a kick out of Misery Whip’s hypothetical situations. I have heard
that there is an opening on the Bunghole NF.

Any info on said opening?

couplemorechains@yahoo.com

Checked the jobs page? Ab.

"...the USDA Forest Service and the Department of the Interior are working to successfully implement the key points outlined in the National Fire Plan by taking the following steps:

1. Assuring that necessary firefighting resources and personnel are available to respond to wildland fires that threaten lives and property
2. Conducting emergency stabilization and rehabilitation activities on landscapes and communities affected by wildland fire
3. Reducing hazardous fuels (dry brush and trees that have accumulated and increase the likelihood of unusually large fires) in the country's forests and rangelands
4. Providing assistance to communities that have been or may be threatened by wildland fire
5. Committing to the Wildland Fire Leadership Council, an interagency team created to set and maintain high standards for wildland fire management on public lands."

Item #1. "ASSURING THAT NECESSARY FIREFIGHTING RESOURCES AND PERSONNEL ARE AVAILABLE TO RESPOND TO WILDLAND FIRES THAT THREATEN LIVES AND PROPERTY: An ongoing priority of the National Fire Plan is ensuring that the agencies of the Departments of Agriculture and Interior maintain a world-class firefighting organization. The Departments will continue to provide all necessary resources to ensure that the fire suppression workforce is at the highest efficiency possible in order to protect life and property in as safe a manner as possible. During the life of the National Fire Plan, major efforts to address the shrinking firefighting workforce have been undertaken, including hiring of additional permanent and seasonal firefighters and permanent fire management staff.

Enhanced training and leadership development opportunities for firefighters and fire managers continue to be delivered through the Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program, the Fire Use Training Academy, and the Prescribed Fire Training Academy. Through these academies, more than 500 people have been trained yearly since the inception of the National Fire Plan."

My opinion on that: BUDGET CUT AND BEING MISDIRECTED

Item #2. "CONDUCTING EMERGENCY STABILIZATION AND REHABILITATION ACTIVITIES ON LANDSCAPES AND COMMUNITIES AFFECTED BY WILDLAND FIRE: In the aftermath of catastrophic wildland fires, emergency stabilization and post-fire rehabilitation work improves lands that are unlikely to recover naturally from the effects of wildfires. Emergency stabilization treatments are essential to protecting lives and properties downstream of burned areas. This work, often implemented over the course of several years following a wildfire, includes reforestation, road and trail rehabilitation, fence replacement, fish and wildlife habitat restoration, invasive plant treatments, and replanting and reseeding with native or other desirable vegetation."

My opinion on that: BUDGET CUT BIG TIME IN 2007

Item #3. "REDUCING HAZARDOUS FUELS (DRY BRUSH AND TREES THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED AND INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD OF UNUSUALLY LARGE FIRES) IN THE COUNTRY'S FORESTS AND RANGELANDS: In response to the risks posed by heavy fuels loads -- the result of decades of fire suppression activities, sustained drought, and increasing insect, disease, and invasive plant infestations -- the National Fire Plan established an intensive, long-term hazardous fuels reduction program. Hazardous fuels reduction treatments are designed to reduce the risks of catastrophic wildland fire to people, communities, and natural resources while restoring forest and rangeland ecosystems to closely match their historical structure, function, diversity, and dynamics. Such treatments accomplish these goals by removing or modifying wildland fuels to reduce the potential for severe wildland fire behavior, lessen the post-fire damage, and limit the spread or proliferation of invasive species and diseases. Treatments are accomplished using prescribed fire, mechanical thinning, herbicides, grazing, or combinations of these and other methods. Treatments are being increasingly focused on the expanding wildland/urban interface areas.

The Healthy Forests Initiative and the Healthy Forests Restoration Act have equipped land managers with additional tools to achieve long-term objectives in reducing hazardous fuels and restoring fire-adapted ecosystems."

My opinion on that: AGENCY FOCUS

Item #4. PROVIDING ASSISTANCE TO COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN OR MAY BE THREATENED BY WILDLAND FIRE: Communities need many types of assistance, and community participation is at the core of carrying out citizen-driven solutions to reduce the risks of fire in the wildland/urban interface. Agencies provide support for educating citizens on the effects of fire, community fire protection planning, and training and equipping rural and volunteer firefighters. Through a variety of grant programs including Rural, State, and Volunteer Fire Assistance and Economic Action Programs, delivered by the Agencies and the State Foresters, communities can take action to live safely in fire-prone areas."

My opinion on that: CUT TO THE POINT OF NON-EXISTENCE IN 2007.

Item #5. "COMMITTING TO THE WILDLAND FIRE LEADERSHIP COUNCIL, AN INTERAGENCY TEAM CREATED TO SET AND MAINTAIN HIGH STANDARDS FOR WILDLAND FIRE MANAGEMENT ON PUBLIC LANDS: Oversight, coordination, program development, integration, and monitoring are critical to successful implementation of the National Fire Plan. Well-articulated, consistent policies and procedures provide for better oversight and review, and lead to greater accountability. To this end, the Wildland Fire Leadership Council is committed to ensuring the highest level of accountability."

My opinion on that: BUNCH OF BUREAUCRATS WHO HAVE FAILED TO ENSURE THE INTENT OF CONGRESS.

The Forest Service and the USDI Agencies made a commitment to the National Fire Plan. They need to stick by it and let Congressional leaders properly fund it.

Nor Cal Tom

I want to add some more information regarding the health hazards of smoke since everyone sat so quietly without comment. Butenolide (discussed on 2/25/2006) is just one of many metabolites found in smoke. Another key metabolite is known as Aflatoxin. There are hundreds of other metabolites found in smoke that are hazardous. They all come from various mycotoxins with Fusarium Sp. being a common one found in the wildland areas.

From www.themoldsource.com/mold/toxins.html:

“The secondary metabolites, called mycotoxins (myxo=fungus; toxins), are produced to give fungi a competitive edge against other microorganisms, including other fungi. There are over 200 recognized mycotoxins, however, the study of mycotoxins and their health effects on humans is in its infancy and many more are waiting to be discovered. Many mycotoxins are harmful to humans and animals when inhaled, ingested or brought into contact with human skin. Mycotoxins can cause a variety of short term as well as long-term health effects, ranging from immediate toxic response to potential long-term carcinogenic (cancer-causing) and teratogenic (birth defect causing) effects. Symptoms due to exposure to mycotoxins include dermatitis, cold and flu symptoms, sore throat, headache, fatigue, diarrhea, and impaired or altered immune function, which may lead to opportunistic infection.”

From www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm99512801/index.htm

“Smoke has always been a problem for wildland firefighters. Research conducted in the 1960's and 70's on the health effects of smoke exposure was not conclusive. The 1987 fires in northern California and the 1988 Yellowstone fires raised serious concerns about the effects of forest fire smoke on the health of wildland firefighters.”

The study of smoke in the 1990’s and in early 2000 was also inconclusive. It was a flawed study that looked at carbon monoxide, respirable (breathable) particulate matter, formaldehyde, acrolein, and benzene as the key hazards in smoke…… they failed to look outside the box or listen to the folks who were suffering from smoke exposures. One person even said to me, “You must just be sensitized to smoke” when I explained what I have been suffering with since 1987.

Wildland firefighters and their family members continue to die from “rare” cancers…. suffer from liver, kidney, and brain ailments, and have lung problems…. How long will it take for the researchers and the various other “expert ologists” in the wildland fire program to listen to the wildland firefighters?

The rare cancers aren’t rare in the wildland fire community…. I don’t have cancer as of this posting…. But I do have screwed up lungs and a passion for safety and saying BS where BS is due. If I keep asking questions or making statements, it’s because I want some of the researchers to do their damn jobs!!!! Listen to the firefighters if you are doing fire research.
Don’t even get me going on the Pack Test and why firefighters keep dying taking it….

Lobotomy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3/6/2006 – Tahoe Terrie posts a link for the public, the press, and Congress to ask questions about why the National Fire Plan is not providing adequate resources in the Western United States. Note how many of them are political appointees and how much time they have had being a firefighter.... they are known as the Wildland Fire Leadership Council....

3/5/2006 - R6er with engine on blocks calls into question statements made by Dale Bosworth, Chief of the Forest Service, to Congress on March 2, 2005 and to Vicki Minor (as posted 2/1/2006).

3/4/2006 – R5 engine slug calls into question statements made by Mark Rey, Undersecretary for Natural Resources and the Environment.

3/3/2006 – Mellie and Gizmo confirm that potential cuts are real and looming after attending the Region 5 Chief Officers Conference. Lots of discussions about A-76 and budget "cuts". Over 500 people in attendance at the Conference including Hotshots, Engines, Helitack, Smokejumpers, Chief Officers, Line Officers and the public.

3/3/2006 – TCS said (regarding the 2006 AD Memorandum), “Get ready, folks! Not only does this come on the verge of what promises to be a major wildland fire season in the southern tier of states, it also promises to negatively affect the largest number of firefighters in the history of federal wildland firefighting.” (Note: AD firefighters are always getting overlooked in their importance to the wildland fire community and their influence on safety.)

3/3/2006 – Azfirefighter addresses concerns over the State of Arizona not funding severity resources. (Note: Assistance programs under State and Private Forestry, USFS, received big cuts in FY 2006 and even larger planned cuts in FY 2007.)

2/27/2006 – Outsourcing Plan is posted on They Said.

2/24/2006 – Gizmo calls BS on Bluesman.

2/24/2006 – Bluesman said, “Gizmo's post is not correct.”

2/24/2006 – Gizmo said, “There are rumors floating around that Region 5 may be losing 40+ engines this coming fire season due to budget cuts. There also are rumors that many fire engines will only be covered five days a week instead of seven.”

2/3/2006 – Casey Judd said, “Since the FWFSA has earned and established its credibility in DC, we are in a position to address your particular concerns with the proper elected officials. All the land management agencies know the FWFSA is keenly aware that what congress appropriates for preparedness & fire, doesn't always get to where it should. They also know that, armed with accurate data about such issues, we will not hesitate to address the matter with the appropriate folks in DC.”

2/2/2006 – Kevin Joseph said, “I appreciate the work you do at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. It is important that someone speaks out on behalf of wildland firefighters. The "Rumor" that there will be cutbacks on wildland firefighters is, unfortunately, very true. We received drastic cutbacks last year in both USFS and BLM fire management programs on my unit and they are continuing.”

2/1/2006 – Vicki Minor said, “In my visit with Dale Bosworth I asked him -- because of work we do here at the Foundation -- not to cut back on wildland firefighters. Cuts would stretch firefighting lines too thin and leave remaining firefighters far too vulnerable. He assured me that reduction in firefighter forces is only a rumor and that there will be no wildland firefighter cutbacks.”

Memorial services will be on Friday, March 10, at the Santa Barbara Elks Lodge located at 150 N. Kellogg Avenue (north of Calle Real between Fairview and Patterson Avenues). The service will start at 10:00 a.m.

You can send letters of condolence to Joyce Buck and family at 464 Coronado Drive, Goleta, CA 93117.

TP

Thanks for the info TP. Sounds like he left his mark and will be missed. Ab.

There some helitack positions open for the jumpers that didn;t get
picked-up. LMAO

Stirabia

Here are some of the people that should be contacted by the press and the
politicians as to why they haven't fulfilled their contract (memorandum of
understanding www.fireplan.gov/leadership/memorandum.html) with
Congress and the American people:
www.fireplan.gov/leadership/members.html

Tahoe Terrie

Just a heads up. Now house cats in Germany and Austria are testing positive
for bird flu. Cats are mammals like humans. Does this mean the H5N1 virus is
more transmissible to humans? This species barrier jump is not what scientists
like to see. In studies done in the lab, cats were injected with the virus, allowed
to eat infected meat and healthy cats were housed with infected cats. All cats died.
It appears the virus transmits cat to cat in addition to bird to cat shown in SE
Asia where hundreds of large cats died in a game preserve. Will will the virus
transmit cat to human and human to human to go pandemic soon is the question.

Please put some extra food and water, and vitamins aside for your families. Ask
your doc to prescribe you a small stock of Rx meds.

Love you all.
Mellie

FluTrackers.com for up to date birdflu info.

The vacancies are not considered as part of the "unfunded" positions. As I
understand it, Region 5 is committed to fill all of its fire positions. The positions
you are seeing are open continuous rosters and positions being advertised at
the GS-7+ level when no open continuous roster exists.

Mellie

"Viejo" brings out some rather salient points. However...you seem to take offense at that and want to discredit him/her by attempting to suggest that "Viejo" has somehow always "has a bone to pick with USFS". You also say that we're not "supposed to get into personalities". You ask Abs why that is...! Take a look at your own post there Tommy Boy and you'll have to admit that perhaps YOU might be a little too overbearing and more than a little full of yourself.

Is there always supposed to be something wrong with a knee jerk reaction? We all are guilty of having them...get over it there in Northern California. Nobody in this forum is always right about everything...yourself included...but this time, my vote is with "Viejo".

COPTER100

Copter100, I made the comment about knee jerk, not "Tommy Boy" (hawhaw). I definitely do not feel knee jerk is an entirely bad thing and I always hope the typing hands are connected to the knee gone wild when there are good points made. Seems like several were. Sometimes that's what keeps this site going on a sleepy-eyed Sunday... That said, it's rare that flaming or red-truck/green-truck polarization creates an optimal environment for lessons learned. Ab.

KD

No. Readers, want to elaborate? Ab.

And from the CDF culture and from the ODF culture, etc. Ab.

NorCal Tom

PS:: Ab, I know we're not supposed to get into personalities, but if you search
theysaid on viejo, you see he always has a bone to pick against the Forest
Service, never any other agency. Why is that, eh?

Something to do with kneejerk powering typing fingers??? Ab.

I'm in a searching mood...

Re:  2/24 Bob Nance Inquiry
He might mean Siskiyou Aviation
www.sisqaviation.com

Re: 3/3 Texas dozer incident:
Couldn't locate a news update, but www.wffoundation.org/
is accepting donations in Steve's name.

Elaine

viejo

“Efficient Response to Wildfires: While the effective treatment of hazardous fuels provides the long-term protection of communities and natural resources from the threat of catastrophic wildfire, the agency must also continue to address fire preparedness. The Forest Service and DOI will maintain sufficient readiness resources to suppress more than 98% of wildfires on initial attack. This represents the same approximate level of readiness that has occurred over the past several years.”

Forest Service Budget Justifications for FY 2006:

“The FY 2006 President’s Budget contains an increase in the Wildland Fire Management program of $3.8 million after adjusting for non-emergency funding and the movement of hazardous fuel funding to NFS. Highlights include Wildfire Suppression Operations funded at $700.5 million, an increase of $51.6 million, and Preparedness funded at $676 million, which is consistent with the 2005 enacted level. The President’s Budget proposes to move hazardous fuel funding to the National Forest System to improve implementation of the program during severe wildland fire seasons, as well as to improve coordination.”

“To distribute preparedness funds efficiently, the Forest Service calculates a Firefighting Production Capability (FFPC) based on the level of funding provided. FFPC equates specific number and mix of resources (e.g. personnel and equipment) identified in local unit’s National Fire Management Analysis System (NFMAS) plans. FFPC represents the total fireline building capability of all firefighters and equipment if all were deployed at one time. Fireline building capability is measured in chains per hour, where one chain equals 66 feet.”

“For FY 2006, the agency will maintain a level of readiness approximate to that attained in 2004. This will be achieved through efficiencies implemented in the program leadership functions and agency-wide overhead. This level of readiness will be maintained consistent firefighter safety as the primary consideration in all aspects of the wildfire suppression management program including training, deployment, suppression, and demobilization.”

“The FY 2006 President’s Budget proposes $676.01 million for Preparedness; a decrease of almost $0.5 million from the FY 2005 enacted level. At this level of funding, the agency will maintain a level of readiness similar to the level attained in FY 2004.”

So, if the FY 2006 NATIONWIDE budget for fire preparedness was only cut by ½ million dollars, where did the rest of the money go?

R5 Engine Slug

AV

The biggest misconception throughout the entire universe is that firefighters will lose their connection with the land if they are properly classified as firefighters. Ask the biologists, the archaeologists, the botanists, the foresters, etc if they lost the connection with the land.

Stop making out firefighters as the bad guys in land management. Start with asking the other professions if they lost contact with land management by allowing the fire managers to exercise their profession?

Ask the easy questions before you ask the tough questions.

Just another thought

I take it keeping contact with the land was one of the reasons given in developing some issue or argument at the Chiefs' meeting? Ab.

Arizona had let loose a severity contract and put some of the work out to bid.
Thats what I am told from an AZLand associate of mine.
aside - thats the skinny anyways

be safe - have fun
Eric

1) Where was the money intended for preparedness staffing directed to and who approved it?
2) How will this reduced firefighting capability affect firefighter and public safety? and
3) How will this affect resource and community protection?

These will be tough questions to answer.

Gizmo

Gizmo or whoever said something last week about cuts was right.

Resources will be cut in R5 this next season unless something changes with the budget allocation. I understand the pinch the WO is in with the squeeze from above from george-dubya. Gordon Graham says the size of the pie is a choice, not a foregone limitation. (He suggested this book: The Fair Tax Book by Neil Boortz. OMG, I just looked at this! I used to be a liberal environmentalist! What am I coming to!!! The things this ol gal has to lip lock or lay a Willie Nelson on, to bring about change!)

OK, so how can we do this change next week? Any chance we could get a media blitz going?

• Those socal talk show guys that some of you (RJM and others) wanted to "school" in the ways of fire... how about you give them some real projected CA budget numbers as part of that schooling?
• We could write up some press releases with photos of green engines that won't be available this year, could do them in B/W and color for the local papers, especially Big Bear and south - the parts that are bound to burn. Get your spouses and kids on it. Make it a classroom project at your kids' schools. Heck, we need to tell the public and congress what we need to do the job on IA and EA.
• We could send copies to Senators and Congress people. I'll call on my friends and family. They're always up for a "theme" barbeque. (I won't tell them about that book, well, maybe a few who are in the middle of working on taxes!)

Should I get a few written pieces together that people could modify and send? Snail mail is best. Reporters will take it anyway you give it. We have to do this soon. If no decision is made, the Line Officers say they're going to have to declare the cuts. We can't go into fire season in earnest not knowing what we have. If there's no engine to safely send, we need to have it stated up front that we could be loosing starts on IA if it's as bad a season as it looks like it could be.

Mellie

PS: you R3 and R8 folks. Sorry to hear about the OK burnover. I hope all are alright and recovering.

Can we help you out with getting your message about resources to congress, etc?

Everyone, please keep up with the spread of birdflu around the globe. Some of my professional med friends do a fine job reporting here: www.flutrackers.com/forum/

I really do not think the pack is the issue, bigger pack mean more stuff, smaller pack means what you do need you can't take. Somewhere in the middle is probably the best. The big thing to remember is your not on a camping trip, but there to work. Yea, the work is a blast, but you still need the tools to do the job. Staying basic seems to have always worked well for me. forgot one item the last email, get a P-38 can opener. They work to good to not have. Be safe, maybe see you it you come west this year. I hang out in the Northwest mostly.

Zimm

Here are the two reports associated with the dozer accident in TX. Both contain
information that may be subject to change pending further investigation.

Texas Dozer Accident Initial & Preliminary Reports

R6

How is the person doing? Ab.

I carry a Ruffian pack and I'm not a sawyer anymore, so here's what I carry:
1 -100oz camel back
4 -1qt GSA canteens ( they fit better in most packs)
1 wool knit cap
1 lightweight fleece top
1 poncho, rip stop nylon
1 pair boot socks
1 hi-graded MRE, (enough real food to last you 24 hours, get rid of all the
packaging and heaters, etc)
all the required equipment (headlamp, fire shelter, 1st aid kit, etc)

Then you have to think about specialized equipment. I carry
6 fussees,
a box of quickfire flares,
a box of .22 rounds,
a flare gun,
a Garmin Vista GPS,
a Kestral (which are junk anyway, Forest SOP),
belt weather kit, and
two siggs of saw gas and oil,
a box of aa batteries,
a roll of fiber tape, and
2 rolls of pink flagging.

This minimum type pack weighs about 35 pounds.
weigh in p-cord, saw kits, and whatever else you might have to carry up a
hill (mark III pump?) and the bottom line is: what do you really need to
last you 24 hours unsupported?

R3 Hotshot

Thanks Bill for stepping up publicly. Posters who are interested in this, here's your contact info. Ab.

Ray said something like "You can know what your future holds if
you define it." There was more. They must have videotaped it.

Todd

Contact the Governor of Arizona by snail-mail or email.

CONGRATULATIONS to

Buck Silva current recipient of the

Cal Yarborough Award, for outstanding Division Chief.

Awarded by the R5 Division Chiefs to one of their own.

That Chief Officers Meeting (Changing Faces of the Forest Service theme) has to be one of the best I have been to in many years. Others have been good, but this was "over the top." The Washington Office showed up and actually listened and dialoged. Kent Connaughton (sp?), Tom Harbour, Hank Kashdan. Didn't agree with some (lot) of what they said but good to have the conversations.

Good presentation and interaction with a Human Resources woman. Felt she's working on solutions hopefully with some success. Sorry, can't remember her name.

Gordon Graham was stupendous as always, especially delightful in his caricature of lawyers -- had everyone clutching their sides. Also good were his humorous comments on the effectiveness of job fairs in hiring. Did that ring true or what!

He gave some excellent information on risk assessment, starting with:

• "There are no new ways to get in trouble.
• We must always seek better ways to stay out of trouble.
• Minimum standards are not good enough."

I liked his comment on bureaucrats and the size of the budget pie too. Reminded me of Casey. Maybe I can summarize a few of his other points when I can.

Laurence Gonzales (Deep Survival) was also good -with his discussion of the role of human factors in decision making:

• "Emotional bookmarks" control behavior.
• Risk/reward loop sets us up for making irrational decisions.
• All learning is physical.

More things:

• Thinking can go bad when you're dehydrated. (reminded me of discussion here)
• Bad choices combined with "dodging the bullet" may not lead to good choices next time if you like the rush of the near miss. (reminded me of what a hotshot said here and what Campbell has said for years)

Ray had a good one liner at closeout. I don't remember exactly what it was.

NorCal Tom

Congrats on the receiving the Humanitarian Award, Vicki. Glad to hear
Harbour appreciating the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Nice female
statue. Can we have a picture?

Good job on the Conference, Chiefs Cadre. Jim Smith, you're awesome.

Tahoe Terrie

Awards, added it. Ab.

There is info on the Shasta-T escape in the Hot List Forum (available off the News Page), though a few days old now.  One news media link with some info here: www.mercurynews.com

Oliver

Do either of you know if there are really gender quotas that have to be met? I thought that was a thing of the past and not even legal. I made a couple of calls but haven't received responses yet. I'll just keep calling and writing until I get some sort of response. It felt like no one wants to talk about it, and now I see why. I'm sort of shocked at it all. What does it say when a trained jumper in good standing can't get back to it? It would save the program a LOT of money, but I guess that's not a problem with the programs now. Things have sure changed in the past three years, cause that didn't seem to be the case before.

I probably need to channel my anger into letters to my congressman. If anyone on here has suggestions please let me know. The mouth on me will say something I might regret without help from other wiser and more experienced in the fire world.

It's probably just me, but this just doesn't sound right to me.

Fire Ape