Discussion: A review of recently reported SAFECOMs indicates that a trend is becoming evident;
pre-flight inspections are not being thoroughly completed, and checklists are not being utilized. This of
course is not true in every case, but it is occurring with enough regularity that it warrants attention.
Several of the following incidents could have been prevented with proper pre-flight inspections and by
using checklists. Fatigue, complacency or a false sense of urgency to accomplish a mission can all be
contributing factors in incomplete pre-flight inspections or failure to use a checklist.
A few recent incidents include: pilots taking off without checking fuel, starting helicopters with rotors
tied down, loose fuel caps, unlatched windows, and doors not properly shut. Many of these incidents
could have had severe consequences. The following excerpts are from a few of the SAFECOMS:

Click here to read the rest of the pdf file of the alert. Ab.

New GAO Report:

Wildland Fire Rehabilitation and Restoration: Forest Service and BLM Could Benefit from
Improved Information on Status of Needed Work GAO-06-670, June 30, 2006
Abstract Highlights-PDF   PDF

Govt Watcher

SUMMARY: The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) is issuing proposed regulations to amend the criteria under which OPM may grant dual compensation (salary off-set) waivers on a case-by-case basis, or delegate waiver authority to agencies. This amendment clarifies that OPM may grant or delegate to agencies the authority to grant such waivers in situations resulting from emergencies posing an immediate and direct threat to life or property or situations resulting from unusual circumstances that do not involve an emergency.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Janice Warren, 202-606-2367 or e-mail: janice.warren@opm.gov
[PDF[75 KB] or TEXT]

Here is my list:
To Joe Hill, I am sorry that I even spoke up and by not having "Your" strong intellectual mind.
Original AB, I am sorry that I do not have your writing ability.
"Signed", I am sorry for not being quiet and offending you.
FireFighters Back FireFighters, I am sorry for making you upset.
YM, I am sorry that you hate landowners so much that you had to criticize them on this site. I am sorry for making you do that.
I thought we could all step back and try to take a look outside the box from a different angle, but I was wrong and I have the courage to admit it.
We all risk our lives no matter if we are paid or not.

Cris

Firefighters are getting tired, worn down and sometimes need to hydrate more than they have been doing. SoCal had problems with firefighters dealing with 100+ temps. Hot days and cold nights in NorCal make people susceptible to colds. It has been cold at night in norcal and hot during the day.

Here are a couple of useful sites relating to these issues. Heads up.

§ Heat Stress: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/fitness/heat_stress//hs_pg1.html
§ Fatigue Intro: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/fatigue.htm
§ Signs of Fatigue: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/signs.htm

Todd

Nice page explaining levels of engagement. HAW HAW on the Nerd comment. Not true, but funny. Ab.

Thanks 2cents for prescribed fire definitions. That's what I thought about "let it burn" (bad word, bad, bad).
I have a friend who thinks we should let most fires burn. Nice guy but he doesn't really know much about fire. (I didn't either before my summerjob last year. Still don't know much, but know how to sharpen a pulaski.) Anyways, I've been trying to educate him and I'm trying to talk him into fighting fire next summer...

What about wildfire (not prescribed fire) that is described as being "monitored" and having no active ground pounding or air show going on? Other day I heard some residents in Redding (near the norcali fires) saying "they're just letting it burn". I told them it wasn't a matter of "letting", it was the reality that there were no resources to do anything more than watch the fire and make plans for if they got those hotshot crews or that airtanker they needed. People assume we have enough fire resources to protect anything. If only they knew...

Jody

Let me try to explain this, as I am from a forest that
is very WFU Wildland Fire Use oriented. The term "let
burn" or "let it burn" was used by firefighters back
when PNF Prescribed Natural Fires were the rage. It's
a term that stuck, but was and is very out of place in
today's WFU fires. These type of fires are managed for
resource benefits, and not left to "let burn". Trigger
points are set by management teams, where if certain
events occur or the fire gets to a certain ridge then
pre-identified actions will occur, IE lines put in to
redirect, backfires lit to prevent it from escaping
predefined boundaries. And yes, fire will always be
monitored. Sometimes the monitoring is an overflight
every 3 days, or a crew hikes in to check it every
couple days. It depends on the incident. Our forest
has had WFU fire that are a 1/10 acre and we have had
multiple 5000+ acre complexes going at the same time.
The terms "Let Burn" or "Let it Burn" should be
removed from the firefighters vocabulary. Fires are
"Managed".

Someone else can explain the engage/disengage.

Hope this helps.
Sign me, My 2cents

You asked,

What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?

That is usually about the time we are at preparedness level 5. You can work it from there I bet.

lol

KD

I'm fairly new to fire and trying to understand nuances of some terms. It's interesting to me how they're used by firefighters, if they are, and how the public might "take them".

What are the differences between "let burn" and "monitor". Monitoring just means watching the fire, right?

• It's associated with prescribed fire "for resource use".
• It might also be watching the fire because that's all you can do.

When do you quit monitoring? Is monitoring a strategy or a tactic?

Do we ever just "let it burn"?

What about "disengage". It might sound bad to the public that is in a panic, like we're not trying, but on the ground we do need to disengage or back off from a fire sometimes. The fire orders are rules of engagement and disengagement, like the right tactics to apply if the fire changes.

Jody,
(I think I'm related to Nerd on the Fireline)

Be safe. Stay alert to the weather.

NorCal Tom

Here is the link for MSNBC, to nominate Vicki Minor and the WFFF for their GREAT
Support to the Wildland Fire Service Community. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10397946/

Retired BC

The local FS ranger stations are a little more aware of the issues, politics and personalities. In North Dakota, many of the issues are being worked through because of us offering training in the winter for some of the local fire departments. I still see volunteer fire departments and locals doing things on the fireline that scare me and make me worry about their safety. I know some of you might say that we should throw the safety hazard people off of the fireline, but how do you throw a rancher off of his own property? You need a local sheriff for that. I had a rancher inform me that he had been fighting fire in this country for thirty years. I did not tell him that in my 11 years as a fire fighter, I had probably seen 5 times as much fire. What the rancher sees is a younger government guy in a Fed rig coming to intrude further in his life. Sometimes the best you can do is assume the worst, keep your situation awareness up and have about seven escape routes.

When you get into larger fires that require an Incident Management Team, politics take on a whole different level. While being a FOBS on the Roberts Complex in Glacier National Park, I watched a team make some big political blunders while dealing with the locals. The IMT was from California and was used to doing things like they would in California. The team did well with dealing with the tactics and strategy of dealing with the fire, but at their level, They have to be aware of the political landscape and have tactics and strategy to deal with that. Much cussing ensued, and many of the local and state resources pulled out of dealing with the IMT. Most of what I saw was silliness from both sides. Regardless, politics are an issue on the fire and have to be dealt with. By the sounds of both Mollysboy and Misery Whips post, they deal with the politics regularly and probably have a better opinion than mine.

As for rebuilding fence, I did a bunch of that on the Clear Creak Fire in Idaho a few years back. Funny thing is, I was rebuilding it after a hotshot crew did it. They made a lot of rookie mistakes! :>) I think most hotshots like to build fireline rather than fenceline!

Also, on the Clear Creak Fire, I got to work with a bunch of Marines that were sent out from North Carolina to help fight fires in 2000. Being former Active duty Navy and a Navy reservist, the "Squid" and "Jarhead" Jokes were flying! I had a great time working with them.

Sign Me

Domaque (PO1)

Thanks for the informative perspective, Domaque. Ab.

MSNBC.com, click Nightly News in the top center, then in the left column, click Making a Difference.

What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?

Lancer 212

Great idea Sylvia; I'll do it. Vicki deserves it. The Foundation she envisioned and made real demonstrates its value daily.

I know that with the fire raging around Orleans this last week, I've thought often of our three firefighters who died on the Stanza. Having the IC pull his firefighters off the Orleans complex of fires as they exceeded safe capabilities to fight them-- well -- it made me think that Heather, John & Steve were up there watching out and guiding the process. This Ab will not forget them. They live on in many hearts and minds.

Norm Silver, BC Retired CDF

Best wishes. Ab.

It's been fun while it lasted, but it's time to put this Burns thread to bed.

Ab.

So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the fences
lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed
their stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?

I can barely afford my 1/4 acre and my 900 square foot house working hard
at a govt job. I am not inclined to donate anything to millionaire
"ranchers" because their grass (that will grow back) and their fences were
burned by grass fires that are part of the land they work. If they work on
the range, and aren't prepared for range fires, they deserve whatever
situation they're in.

Yes, I have been out on a lot of ranch fires, and dealt with a ton of
hostile ranchers, many of whom roll around their giant properties, back to
their 300 or 400,000 houses in brand new 1 ton trucks that cost about half
what I paid for my house.

I will work my a$$ off fighting fire because it's something I love to do,
not because of any sympathy I have for the foolish people who live in the
interface and flip out when the government rescue provided to them at no
cost does not meet their standards. The ranchers' attitude seems to be that
they're owed something by the government they hate, and work to minimize.
Perhaps the ranchers who are in such a "hardship" could sell the 40,000
truck and the giant houses and the million dollar land in order to make
ends meet? If they had a federal engine and crew staged near their land
for IA, they'd bitch about that too, it's the rancher's paradox, they bleed
the federal government for cheap grazing and agricultural subsidies and
complain about fire protection but will vote for low-tax small government
representatives every time.

You seem to rely on people's ignorance of how ranchers live, like the "old
western" struggling-rancher cow-camp BS...I haven't seen a struggling
rancher in 20 years-every one I see is in a shiny new truck heading back
to a million dollar property... no sympathy here.

Think about this: how many times have you had to negotiate with or pay a
hostile landowner for "land use" or "water use" to fight a fire on or
threatening their land.... I have seen this a great many times.

and hotshots should not be building rancher's fences for them at
PL5... sheesh.

-YM

You wrote in your report about a couple killed in a fire on their own land but couldn't remember the incident.
The couple died almost 10 years ago, Labor Day weekend. They were in fine fuels when the truck they were in got a flat tire, while changing it the wind shifted direction and over came the truck.
How do I remember it so well? That same weekend an arsonist came through our area and started 13 fires. Talk to D. Williams for more info.

Cris

Our loyalty was not sold "cheaply" as you say for a new truck. Out of three (3) representatives for our state only Conrad wrote back to us to show his support of our request for a grant to buy that new truck.

As I asked before, but none of you answered, when was the last time you had a landowner in your rig or dealt with that person who not only lost a years worth of hard work in just a few moments, but now has to face the prospect of cleaning up the mess?

Conrad spoke with the people most affected in the fires and had lost the most. So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the fences lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed their stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?

I got an idea take off your fire boots and go walk a couple miles in their boots.

Conrad spoke to the landowners and got mad because they were mad.

So which one of you talked to the landowners and found out the best place to set up a defense? No one?

Conrad is still a good man in my book no matter what. He speaks his mind no matter what. To me that's better then a fence sitting person who can't answer a straight question.

FireFighters back FireFighters,

Your remark about Senators criticizing returning troops about a "poor" job. That has already happened. Where were you? They just didn't have the guts to face them and do it.

It is also amazing that people are demanding that he he become responsible for his words, but if any of you finally decide to look back in the achives here, why don't you look up where you were all demanding someone take responsibility for their actions that caused the loss of life in a fire blow up.

All his words did is cause hurt feelings, but their actions caused loss of life. So which is worse?

Cris

It's good to hear that Conrad Burns helped your department get some much needed fire equipment like a Type 6 engine. I'm sure that if your department has a legitimate need for continued Federal support that Senator Jon Tester will be the first in line to support those needs.

You made some assumptions about my background ("I guess you have never had a pissed off land owner in your rig with you before....."), and so I probably need to fill in a few blanks. Yeah, I've had lots of pissed off land owners in my rig before: for 13 years, I was in Fire with the USFS in some super-conservative, Fed-hating ranching communities in Eastern Oregon. I not only heard from them from the front seats of rigs, but also after church on Sunday, at Little League baseball games, at PTA meetings, in the pizza parlor/beer hall, at County Fair and at the cattle auction yard, See, I raise cows, irrigate and put up hay, so those pissed off landowners are my friends and neighbors too! In addition to that, I've been doing the Ops Chief 1 job on National IMTs since 1986, and have been yelled and screamed at by the best of them, from "Biscuit" to "Big Bar" to the "Sunrise fire" on Long island New York.

You're proud of being a Marine, and rightfully so! I spent 3+ years on active duty with the US Army during the VietNam era (1968-1972), and another 25 years in the National Guard. I feel a strong sense of loyalty to them as a large group, but totally disassociate myself from other Army vets like Lt. William Calley (ever hear about My Lai?), or the ex-Army wacko that blew up the Fed Building in Oklahoma City. The same for those Army troops that disgrace the uniform in Abu Graib or rape and kill little girls in Haditha.

You ask if I know Conrad: well, I've lived and worked in Montana the entire time that he's been in the US Senate, and have shaken his hand on several occasions . Montana is a small State with less than 1 million folks, so our Senators are always close to us, and their votes on each Bill is reported weekly in my local paper. So yeah, I think I know Conrad!
Lastly, you say that Conrad represents the land owners and not "out-of-staters": BULL!

He's a Senator that is supposed to not only represent Montanans (which includes alot of wildland firefighters that aren't "landowners"), but he's also a member of an elite group of 100 women and men that are supposed to do the right thing for all the citizens of the US, not just big ranchers in eastern Montana that contribute to his campaign fund.

But the real issue here is not if Conrad was a good Marine or if I've ridden with pissed off landowners: the issue is that a US Senator abused his power to intimidate and belittle some USFS firefighters who really couldn't fight back. If Conrad went into a bar outside of Camp Pendleton and bad-mouthed the Marines, US Senator or not, he'd be wearing his teeth on a necklace.

My votes are for the Augusta IHC, and soon-to-be Senator Jon Tester.

Mollysboy

A friend of mine with San Bernardino County Fire (Sawtooth and Millard, not to mention the Old Fire a few years ago) is researching the issue. His department has the stuff cached at different locations for use and very little info was provided from the vendors reps.

As for Sen. Burns, it would not be a bad idea to e-mail his office regarding every funding issue that I have seen come up in the past year. Since he brought up the Homeland Security comparison, he obviously has slept through the Federal Wildland Fire Service's funding issues, which are not as important, in his eyes. The exhausted firefighters behaved far more professionally than the overpaid and underworked public representative.

Fyr Etr

Earthpig

psssst, I'll agree with you that the hotshots are professional firefighters. I'll also disagree on other points: some hotshots have written in; they do feel slighted; others on the fireline don't have their laptops along. "Tool time" replaces keyboarding when so many fires are raging. Ab.

Ab will pass the info on.

You're right, even politicians have the right to express themselves and their opinions in a public forum. They also have a right to behave in any fashion they see fit, so long as it is not contrary to orderly norms of society.

However, like everyone else, they have are responsible for the content and consequences of that speech and behavior. The public and professional outrage that is being generated is a manifestation of those consequences. He is a public figure, an elected official that presumptively should subscribe to more stringent standards of decorum than the average citizen. His diatribe was crude, profane, and peculiarly misdirected toward a group of guys and gals who swing tools for living and pay his salary. In that sense, he was nothing more than a bully. He must have been hiding behind his pompous image as "The Senator" when he popped off because I can't imagine most shots putting up with that kind of bulls@#$t abuse from any other pasty faced codger in the crowd.

It is irrelevant that Senator Burns personally or professionally enriched your life. That's what we call out here in hill country "anecdotal" and not a salient point in the current whirlwind of discussion. I'm glad you got a nice new rig out of the bargain but I can't believe that you would sell your loyalties so cheaply. As far as substituting an organizational allegiance for critical thought (i.e.: "Semper Fi", Marines back marines!), I've always believed it to be the crutch of an intellectual weakling. By that same line of thinking, you backed the play of Lee Harvey Oswald, or Charles Whitman simply because they once wore the same clothing you did. Try a little more stringency, and you'll have a better grasp of what free speech really is all about.

Joe Hill

i just wanted to thank you all for your hard work and dedication fighting the fires out here in MT. If it wasnt for you, the whole state may have gone up in smoke. please dont let his comments deter your from coming back to help us. sen burns' is not how all people here in MT think and act.

as the girlfriend of a firefighter, i know how much you sacrifice to save someones house, land, car, animals and not to mention time away from your families. we should be thanking you instead of cutting you down.

thanks a bunch guys and gals!!!
jennifer stokes
billings MT

MG

Mollysboy,

I guess you have never had a very P**sed off land owner in your "rig" with you before. I have. Try it some time it is a real blast. Best thing to do is be quiet and say nothing.

As for Conrad Burns too bad you don't know the man.

If it wasn't for Conrad our fire company wouldn't have gotten a new type6 fire truck.

So what if he speaks what's on his mind. I thought that was Free Speech. As for the fire fighters get over it.

Conrad spoke to the landowners first because they are the ones most affected by these fires and had lost the most. How many of the landowners were out there fighting the fires before the DNRC and the "paid" firefigters showed up? I have a good idea that a good majority of them were out there. How many of them have been fighting fires on their land before you were even born? I personally know a few.

Conrad represents the landowners not the out of state firefighters.

Well that is all I have to say for now except:
Conrad if you read this "Semper Fi!" Marines back Marines.

Cris (PFC)

Any base that uses thermogel will have the MSDS. I don't know who is.

Fly

We were just sent the notices that we are going to level 5. Need to get all
the overhead on the area together to read the bulletins and explain what this
means.

KD

This is so much fun I can't stand it!

Seriously, you cannot believe what an embarrassment this clown has been
for the past 18 years - and to think that wildland firefighter-bashing could
lead to his ultimate demise is too good to be true!

Gash Creek fire on the Bitterroot is getting a head of steam up this PM with
100 F and winds too. If we get dry lightning in the next few days, we're off
to the races!

Aberdeen

Time to yeller up. NorCal is off to the races too. Ab.

Mollysboy

Burns' criticism cut from report
www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/07/28/news/mtregional/news05.txt

Whooooo'whee, this is not good press for the Senator. The story is propagating across the country... Google results Oh my, here's one that includes a link to theysaid... Nice job, Casey! www.greatfallstribune.com

Jeff, Jesse and the Eldorado want to express our sincere thanks.

I know that information is slow to be released and many are wondering
about their condition. What I've found out is that any information that is
released must come from one of them. The hospital, doctor and nurses can't
release any information to me. It must come from them. So, I can report
that both are improving, but with healing comes intense pain. Jeff could
possibly be released as early as Monday but must be able to change bandages
and cleanse wounds without medication before release. Jesse will be at
least another week. As reported both have second degree burns. Can't give
exact dates as it depends on many things. Both Jeff and Jesse appreciate
the calls and well wishes.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation came through as usual with immediate
support to the families; flying Jeff's mom out and finding her a hotel. No
policy nonsense to have to deal with. They secured rooms for us as well
until we could put it on our cards. They are truly appreciated. If you'd like
to send a card to Jeff and Jesse the address is:

University Medical Center,
1800 West Charleston,
Las Vegas, NV 89102.

Live plants or flowers are not allowed in the Burn Unit.

Visits from the Bear Divide and Klamath Hotshots really meant a lot to Jeff
and Jesse. Calls from many other crews as well. It's great to see this kind
of support and concern. Thanks to all.

The rest of the crew is doing well and coming through this together.
There are too many people to mention who have stepped up to help out.
Clark County Fire, the HTF and BLM just to mention a few. If you're
compelled to want to help in some way, the best thing you could do
is to donate to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Thanks again
and I'll get updates out as I get them.

Gary Humphrey
Eldorado National Forest
South Division Chief

Thanks for the update. Ab.

Thanks.

Fyr Etr

Captain Ron

I can't tell you how or why the ADs are FLSA exempt. I can tell you to contact people in the Alaska State Forestry Department and ask them what happened to their EFF (their version of AD) a few years back.

They didn't have to pay OT and got sued. Now they pay OT, but they dropped the rates back when they switched over, to make up the difference.

I don't know any more than that though.

KD

From the Rapid City Journal:
www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/07/27/pmedition/news/news01.txt

"Two fire injuries on smaller fires in the northern Black Hills have resulted in firefighters being taken to hospital. One firefighter suffered from severe heat exhaustion and was taken by ambulance to a hospital. Another, a smoke jumper, was injured jumping on a small fire and was flown to Rapid City for treatment."

S

Skuabird

Senator sorry for criticizing firefighters
Burns confronted crew at airport, said they did 'poor job'
The Associated Press
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14068593/

Updated: 10:16 p.m. MT July 27, 2006

HELENA, Mont. - Sen. Conrad Burns apologized Thursday for criticizing a firefighting team for their work on a blaze in southern Montana, saying his frustration came from a meeting with upset landowners.

Burns confronted members of a Virginia firefighting team at an airport and told them they had done a "poor job," according to a state official's report obtained Thursday.

"In retrospect, I wish I had chosen my words more carefully," Burns said in a statement. "My criticism of the way the fire was handled should not have been directed at those who were working hard to put it out."

Members of the "hotshot" wildfire crew said Burns confronted them in the Billings airport Sunday while they were awaiting a flight home, according to a report by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation employee.

The firefighters said Burns told them they had done a "poor job" and should have listened to the concerns of ranchers, the report said.

"My frustration came from meeting with landowners who were critical of the way the fire was handled," Burns said. "Whatever the reason, I should have simply thanked those who worked hard to put out the fire."

The hotshot crew was battling a 143-square-mile wildfire near Pompeys Pillar National Monument, east of Billings. The blaze started July 12 and was contained last week.

Rosenthal, who prepared her report at the direction of agency supervisors, said she was sent to the airport to meet with Burns after reports of an "altercation."

"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area," Rosenthal wrote. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."

She said Burns also was concerned and upset about the "command and control" system for firefighting efforts and made "several comments about us `not letting ranchers fight the fire on their own land.'"

She said she responded that that safety is always a priority.

"He replied, `We're fighting a war on terror and we're concerned about safety there too, but we're out there doing it,'" Rosenthal wrote.

The superintendent of the hotshot team, Jeff Koenig based in Staunton, Va., confirmed his team encountered Burns at the airport, but referred questions to spokeswoman JoBeth Brown.

Brown said members of the team who were present "have chosen not to say anything more about this."

"They're firefighters first," she said, "and they're really just interested in fighting fire."

Bob Harrington, forestry division administrator for the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, said Thursday that Rosenthal's conversation with Burns was cordial. However, Harrington said the firefighters reported a less cordial exchange with the senator.

'Utmost respect'

"I wasn't present for that, nor was Paula, but it is my understanding from discussions that there was some level of lively discussion, shall we say?" Harrington said. He declined to elaborate.

Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, which represents federal firefighters, said he was disappointed Burns confronted the hotshot team.

"We have expressed our support for him in the past," Judd said. "But to make a point of blistering a bunch of hotshots, it's really disconcerting."

Burns, a Republican facing a tough re-election challenge this fall, said Thursday he has since addressed his concerns about the fire's handling to the proper officials.

"Please accept my apology for any hard feelings that my comments may have caused," Burns said. "I have the utmost respect for the job firefighters have done in Montana."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights, economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. . For more information, please see: www.law.cornell.edu Ab.

Comments

Fire grew twice the size over night, about 100+ acres. There are 46 fire fighters that were flown in to a helispot that was created yesterday. The crews spent the night up there last night. At 1000 hrs this morning, the IC (Incident Commander) of this fire reported that the whole bottom of the fire had rolled out, due to extremely steep terrain. He requested 4 Type1 crews and two Type2 helicopters for exclusive use on this fire. Operations Chief (Jameson) informed him that no Type1 crews or additional helicopters were available in the Region. Jameson offered Type2 crews, but the IC declined. He stated that the terrain and conditions of the fire were unsuitable for Type2 crews.

The IC also stated that he can hear fire below them, but is unable to see it. Lookout on Orleans Mtn, and is unable to see the fire anymore due to the current inversion. Orleans Complex IC (Annand) made the call to disengage the fire and to have all resources pulled off the mountain. Currently the helicopter is shuttling people off the fire.

This is a classic "Cramer Fire" situation. Good call by the IC to get those fire fighters off the mountain. When the inversion lifts, (which is starting to happen now) we are expecting the fire to make major runs. The microwave is starting to be affected. Orleans lost all long distance service at 0930hrs, and local service is hit and miss. Currently we are not affected at Oak Bottom Fire Station / Somes Bar. The only communication by telephone Orleans has with Fortuna Dispatch right now is the one "tie-line". Radio and repeaters are not affected at this time. So if you loose contact with me or anyone else from Orleans / Somes Bar, you know that the microwave was over run by the fire.

We are doing the best we can, but resources are stretched through-out the state of California. We have pending resource orders and they are trying to be filled ASAP. We have just become the State's number 2 priority because of the resources and watershed that are threatened. I will keep you all informed when I can, for as long as I can.

Hot List poster

Annand, a leader who made the right choice. Way to walk the walk. Ab.

What would one expect from a Senator who's previous job before the
Senate was the Ag. Reporter on a Montana Television Network.

Toss the Bum out. He embarrasses Montana.

Pitch Pocket

As the just-retired Supt of the Ukonom handcrew and with thirty years of experience there, I would just like to warn all of you that may be on your way there to work on the fires, to be very heads up. There have been at least two years in the past five with heavy snow breakage between the 2000 and the 4000 foot range. The fuels are dry and heavy and anyone that has ever been in that country knows it's steep, very few safety zones, lots of roll out.

Have good lookouts, know when the inversion is going to break. Remember there is nothing out there worth one person.

Supt.

Thanks Supt. Ab.

Firemark glad to see you here offering your opinion. Ab.

Hi LAVE. Glad you're still lurking about.
That's a good bit of info for posting on the HotList Forum. There are probably others who can fill you in. That page has been cooking with flaming details. Ab.

The AP has contacted Casey at the FWFSA regarding Senator Burns' comments to the Augusta hot shots in the airport on their way home from weeks of dirty, tiring fire duty in Montana.

<rant>

Why should Burns comment to hotshots except to say "THANK YOU VERY MUCH"? What do hotshots have to do with the management-strategy-tactics of a very large Montana fire? Fire Teams commanded by ICs do the professional large-scale planning. Hotshots deal with their assigned piece of ground - AND THEY DO IT VERY WELL. They're our much-needed "boots and Pulaski's on the fire ground".

Military Analogy: It would be like the Senator Burns waylaying some homeward-bound Green Berets, Rangers or Seals in an airport after their long, wearing tour of war duty to tell them they should have found a civilian who was not in their chain-of-command and taken orders from him or her. I think not.

The old firefighter in me says, "A verbal blindside delivered by a Senator (or anyone else who should know better) against some of our own, deserves an inbox overflowing with the logical consequences..."

</rant>

haw haw haw... Ab.

Forest Service folks, sign up for the Honor Guard. We all need your participation. It's a great service that the Honor Guard does. Ab.

Didn't mean to tar all of Montana with the Senator's brush, not my intention
at all......... just meant that this just may be a landmark, in more ways than one,
after seeing Casey's post, to get the firefighter message out to 'real' listeners.....

Firefox

Montana's got good folks, don't tar the state with the Senator's tar brush. Ab.

Haw haw, there have been mutterings here from the office walls... <snort> "Not the first time Burns has made an a$$ of himself."

They have been through a CISD and I am sure there will be more to follow. One of the crewmembers assured me that they were all doing an excellent job of communicating with one another and have the greatest group of shoulders (the entire crew) to lean on. Sometimes there is nothing more effective than your best friend who you work side by side with and who was "there". There is an amazing network of Eldorado NF folks ranging from the Forest Supervisor down to first year firefighters helping all of these guys and their families with whatever they need.

Thanks for your concern.

Published on Thursday, July 27, 2006.
Last modified on 7/27/2006 at 12:15 am
Burns criticizes firefighters, says they didn't heed ranchers

By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau
HELENA - Republican Sen. Conrad Burns chastised a group of firefighters over the weekend for doing a "poor job" dousing a 92,000-acre blaze near Billings, a state report shows.

Burns and the firefighters - members of the Augusta Hot Shots from the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in Virginia -were at Billings Logan International Airport awaiting flights, according to Burns and Forest Service representatives.

Burns approached the firefighters and told them they had "done a poor job" and "should have listened to the ranchers," according to a report prepared by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation employee who was sent to the airport to speak with the senator.

Rosenthal wrote in her report that she received word of an "altercation" between Burns and the Hot Shot crew. The crew had been in Montana working on the Bundy Railroad fire near Worden.

The 92,000-acre timber, grass and sagebrush fire was contained on July 19, and the 368 people who came to fight it began dispersing a few days later.

Burns had been in Billings to commemorate the new interpretive center at Pompeys Pillar, the sandstone bluff near the Yellowstone River where explorer William Clark scratched his signature while on the Lewis and Clark Expedition.

Burns had also met with local ranchers affected by the blaze.

Matt Mackowiak, a Burns spokesman, said he didn't think Burns met with any of the fire bosses handling the fire.

By the time Rosenthal reached the airport, the interaction had ended. Burns told her he was concerned that fires are run out of the National Interagency Fire Center, in Boise, Idaho, which he called "ridiculous."

"The government needs to listen to these ranchers," the report quotes Burns as saying.

Mary Sexton, director of the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, said in an interview that the National Interagency Fire Center does not run individual fires but is the national hub for fire information and available resources. Beneath the Boise center are several regional dispatch centers, including one for the northern Rocky Mountain area in Missoula. Individual fires are managed by the fire bosses on the ground, Sexton said.

Burns also said he was concerned that fire bosses don't let ranchers fight fire on their own land. Rosenthal wrote in her report that she told the senator that "private citizens were integral to our success, as were (volunteer fire departments), county governments" and others.

Sexton said fire teams - the groups of national and local fire experts who come to manage and fight large fires - cannot tell private landowners what to do. They cannot force them to evacuate or prevent them from fighting fire on their own land. However, Sexton said fire bosses prefer to know where all people working on a fire are - including landowners - and may ask landowners not to help in the interest of safety.

Burns also said he had heard from one rancher that fire crews on the Bundy Railroad fire put a strip of fire retardant on the edge of Bureau of Land Management federal land, implying the fire crews were more interested in protecting public land than private.

"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area," Rosenthal's report reads. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."

Rosenthal's report said she would take Burns' concerns back to agency officials, and Burns thanked her for taking the time to listen to him.

Dan Jerome, a spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service in the agency's Washington, D.C., office, said the agency has heard from Burns regarding his concerns.

"Essentially, the senator had some issues with a fire and we heard those," Jerome said. "He talked to the crew about those. Generally, the place to talk about them is with the Forest Service. Meanwhile, the crew is out fighting fire, and we're proud of the work they do."

Jerome said the agency is working on addressing Burns' concerns.

Mackowiak said Burns has been hearing from Montanans affected by wildfire for weeks.

"As a result, he very responsibly reaches out to policymakers in Washington to make sure that all coordination is being done in the best and most reasonable manner," he said.

Burns talked to Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey about his concerns, Mackowiak said, and Rey has since personally called the ranchers with whom Burns spoke. The Forest Service is part of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Burns wants to make sure that fire policy is "adequate and adaptive," Mackowiak said, and the senator is pushing for emergency assistance for ranchers and landowners affected by the blazes.

Copyright © The Billings Gazette, a division of Lee Enterprises.

S

Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights, economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. . For more information, please see: www.law.cornell.edu Ab.

To all of those who hear bits and pieces, please be careful not to spread rumors. I work with them and have first hand knowledge of the incident. As you can imagine the whole crew as well as co-workers, friends and family are in the middle of a very emotional ordeal right now, not only because of the incident but also the treatment afterwards ie; medi-vac/hospital (details will be given later). Hear-say can only make things worse.

Keep them on your minds and in your hearts.

ABO

A great gal, Cathy Risdon from the Clark Co Fire Dept employee assistance program has arranged places for the moms to stay in Las Vegas. (Clark Co is the county Las Vegas is in.) It's so great to have the structure firefighters support teams helping the moms and working with our wildland supporters at the Foundation. Wildland or structure, vollie, state, county or fed, we have a remarkable community of firefighters!

One of the two shots is doing so well he may be released in the next day or two. The second one will need longer treatment. I hope the crew is getting critical incident stress debriefing, they must be, and it's important for those who were not too affected to be present so their fellow firefighters can work through and integrate the incident. I have my fingers crossed for all those guys.

For everyone following the columns in the northern part of California, here's a good link:
Fire Information Summary

Mellie

Fire behavior has been extreme at times over the last days with the thunderclouds overhead. Be safe. Do not compromise LCES. Resources are very short. Many of the lightning fires in the wilderness areas and surrounding forests are likely to burn longer term since they're not being picked up on IA or EA due to fuel, terrain and resources. We're dealing with fuel and topography driven fires, folks, a number of which will go until the rains come if they're not picked up soon.

Mellie, we may get one of your famous hugs soon. Fire up the huggin' arm and your great laugh.

NorCal Tom.

Fire crews I work with were on the scene about 40 yards below the hot shots and witnessed the whole ordeal.

(As "actual" visuals may be lost in the final reports, this is the best view I can give)

A dozer line was established. The "new" type 2 team was in place. The order was given to burn it out and thus, the fire would be out. Local fire fighters on the scene noticed a thundercloud in the sky. In this area, a single thundercloud designates high erratic winds (up to 45 mph) with "dust devils" in normal conditions.

The burn proceeded. One of the areas infamous "dust devils" hit the fire. Eye reports say this was a "huge" whirlwind. (I have seen them up to an acre in width, my interpretation would be a whirlwind covering 1/2 to one acre..........this is not confirmed as I had other questions for the crew when I talked to them.)

Some of the hotshots ran in one direction on the dozer line, around into the safe black, and back to safety. Other crew members ran toward my crews' engines on the dozer line. The actual words were "they were 'entrapped' "(not over run). They said it happened fast - no time for shelter deployment.

I believe that in the final report "local weather influences" should be discussed. Many times in my career, I have gained more knowledge on weather from the locals before entering a fire, than generic reports can accurately interpret for a whole district.

"Tuffy"

Our problem, as with so many other volunteer fire departments, is with keeping up on current regulations and trainings to keep our people safe. Our chief wants to "retire", step down to give him time to deal with his health issues. We have no one in the dept. who is able to or interested in assuming the responsibilities. What we need most is someone with firefighting and/or administrative experience who wants to retire to a beautiful area and wouldn't mind being involved in a small, laid-back community.

I guess where I'm headed is, how do we, and where do we, go about advertising and promoting ourselves and our need to interested people? Are there publications, websites, organizations, etc. that we could contact? Our entire county has a population of about 13,000, and there aren't a lot of qualified people just waiting around! Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

You may notice I've sent this e-mail to another person; that is the Chairman of our District Board. I look forward to your response.

Thanks,

Eric Blomberg

Eric, I know your community and your fire department. Very nice spot, along Hwy 299 30-40 min west of Redding. Readers, anyone out there looking for a great place to retire, this is it.

I don't have any answers for you Eric, but maybe some of our readers will have ideas. Ab.

the Las Vegas Sun

"Six firefighters injured in wildfire northwest of Winnemucca" .
www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2006/jul/26/072610035.html

The WFF is flying the mom of one of the hotshots to Las Vegas and has made arrangements for her hotel. Burk is on it.

Three hotshots had minor burns and were treated in camp and then driven to the hospital, treated and released. Of the other three who were flown, one was treated and released from the hospital in Winnemucca; two were transported to the Las Vegas burn center. They have second and first degree burns over 50% of their bodies but no airway involvement (that is, no inhalation burns - very good news). We expect the 24 hour Report to be out in a timely manner. As you know it will have bare-bones info. The 72 Hour Report should provide more details. We're periodically briefed and when we are, we'll post it here.

For more info, see the release below. It just came in. Ab.

Thanks. Ab.

Preference for crew bosses will be first given to the previous crew bosses that helped in basic academies, then to the assistant crew bosses who helped. All interested parties are encouraged to apply, even if you have not participated in the academies before. Remember, there are no assistant crew bosses at the advanced academies.

For formal instructional cadres, we have three slots open for S-234 and three for S-290. We will also solicit interest in the “Third Instructor” or liaison positions to assist MCS in L-380, Fireline Leadership. Please use the instructor application for 3rds.

Call Scott Whitmire at 916-640-1061 or 916-717-6615 (cell) for info.
For BLM call Rick Roach at 916-640-1080 or 916-997-6655 (cell).

Please call or submit an application even if you do not know your training/work schedules for the winter. We can adjust scheduling on our end.

This is one of the best venues for learning and enhancing leadership and instructional skills. The academies also offer a golden opportunity to positively influence our new career fire employees.

Scott Whitmire
Assistant Coordinator
National Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program

The Eldorado Hotshots have been involved in a burnover on New York Peak fire, NW of Winnemucca Nevada. Three were hospitalized. One was treated and released. Assessments of two others were that they have 2nd degree burns over 35 % of their bodies. They were transported to Las Vegas for treatment.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is apprised of the situation and is standing by to help with arrangements and costs if help is necessary.

As more information becomes available, we'll let you know.

My thoughts and prayers for those involved.

Please be safe out there. This is a dangerous job.

Ab.

For anyone interested in some "heavy lifting" reading this summer (as time and the fires allow), check out Kennedy's new book "Wildfire and Americans: how to Save Lives, Property and Your Tax Dollars".

It offers a unique view on our WUI situation from a non-firefighter who's been deeply involved in natural resources management for many years. While all of his facts on wildfire fatalities are non correct, taken in the bigger context of offering new ideas, it's a good read the will stimulate your thoughts about the world we fight fire in.

Dick Mangan

Some areas/agencies sent the bulletin out thursday afternoon, July 20.

If some did and some didn't, why the difference? I think that may be
where the focus of any questioning should be. Where was/is the
communication breakdown?

KD

...ncbrush

1. Fixes for the interference issues between the Humboldt-Toiyabe NF and the San Bernardino NF:
• The power output will be lowered on the Mt Keller Repeaters. This will not reduce coverage on the San Bernardino but should keep it from getting Humboldt-Toiyabe's bleedover.
• The Humboldt-Toiyabe will be tone protected so it won't get the San Bernardino bleedover.
2. Re the Comm Center in a trailer:
   The Comm Center on the San Bernardino is moving into a new Supervisor's Office. It has been operating out of an BLM Comm van during construction. It will soon be moved into its permanent facility.
3. Mt Keller -- where the repeater is located -- lost power on Saturday. Power converted to backup but no one knew. The repeater went down when the backup batteries were drained. Power was restored asap and batteries were recharged.

In reply to the Region 5 Engine Module Configuration Requirements letter discussed by "Where have you gone RQ".

• The clarification is to make engine deployments more flexible as SteveM said; the form/table is to track the changes.
• There was a process involved in deciding to send out the new letter. There were requests from the field, citing "too much ambiguity" on the first letter originally sent out by RQ before his retirement. The new letter attempted to address those and see how often there's a deviation from policy.
• The form only needs to be filled out when people deviate from policy, not necessarily every day.

Ab.

What the hell is a "mild" burn?

Old Fire Guy

Be Safe.

http://ww2.rvcfire.org/firepio/process?action=viewIncident&id=21670 (pdf file)

Firefighter injuries:
1 with mild to moderate burns transported to Arrowhead Real Burn
Center for further evaluation.

SoCaF

Thanks, Ab.

Important points and more releases/details on the Little Venus Entrapment

Glad to hear it. Ab.

You might want to check your status in ROSS too. We just started using it this year and there have been a few issues that have shown up, some had people that were available showing up as unavailable.

Employment issues

I'm rather surprised there has been so little talk about the region taking over hiring, we have had huge delays, no local input into the hiring etc. Jobs that were flown in Feb, were just filled in June, the backfill will probably take until next Feb. We can't even fill temp jobs at the moment.

The ENGB / ENOP issue is causing some of our modules to run 5 days, not because of a shortage of class B drivers / crew but because of the shortage of ENOP qualified drivers, we have had a hard time keeping the 5/6 level filled.

CDF has made a major change in the working conditions of their seasonals, from a 96 hour week to a 72 and they are getting more money out of it too. We've already lost several experienced seasonals and have many others that plan to apply next year. Add to this the fact California has legislation pending to allow Feds to buy their time into the state / county retirement system and next year could be "interesting" for those who are still green. A starting Captain for CDF makes 2x that of a Fed wildland Captain, a CDF seasonal makes about the same as a Fed wildland Captain.

I can't believe the apparent lack of interest in the idea a wildland series could actually be a reality, its only been a little over a month and its already through 1/2 the process. Looks promising, I thought there would be more excitement about this.

Other stuff

Seems like entrapments are up this year, thankfully all have been fairly minor so far but it looks like were looking at a busy season with alot of distractions. Hope we can avoid any serious injuries.

Just wanted to extend my thanks to Casey and the FWFSA, great job, the issues being brought to congress have helped me maintain a positive attitude despite some serious issues being dropped on us from above.

in the words of Kermit, sign me

its not easy being green

Glad yer writing in. Ab.

The Hot List Forum is awesome. Thanks OA for creating it! SoCal is reporting lightning fires from yesterday.

I know resources are in short supply. Please choose tactics that fit your KSAs, resources, etc. Safety first!

Mellie

Aberdeen,

Are you kidding? Most of the GACCs can't/won't even update their News and Notes pages, with the notable exception of the Western Great Basin. They do a great job. SoCal hasn't updated since July 19th. They've got Kerr's team and maybe Garwood's team out since then. Nope, no news here... nothing to see, move along folks.

I've had a hard time this year ordering FS folks who show as available in ROSS for needed positions that the GACC says are UTF. Don't even get me started on not ordering local government folks to "save money" at the expense of having no resources on the fire.

I know that GACC's are short staffed, but c'mon now...

JF

I attended the Wildland Fire Fighter Specialist Apprenticeship program in California in 1992. I am unable to find my transcripts of courses completed. I have the certificates but no courses. I could use any suggestions on where to find them. I have already tried the state of California.

Thanks

Tamara Cowles

I read what you wrote and it brought to mind a recent phone call I got.
The local Sheriffs office called asking if our fire company had a white truck.
We have a type 6 Ford F-350 white truck that is owned by our fire company.
What they failed to ask was if it was a DNRC truck.
We were willing to send our truck if they could have gotten a crew together, but nobody bothered to call us back.
There are plenty of resources out there but they never call them all in for a fire.
I'm in north central MT.

Cris

I wondered what the problem was with the scanner. Dangerous situation, no?

If this is chronic, someone needs to submit a safenet.

Todd

Hi Concerned. Welcome to theysaid.

It's not a memorial; it's bigger than that.

It's a Monument, hence it serves many functions and means different things to different people. Here are some explanatory pages from the WFF website:
Wildland Firefighter Monument
Firefighter Monument History
Honoring the Fallen via the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, has a section on Monument Bricks.

I especially like that The Monument is a tribute to honor all of America's wildland firefighters and the people who support them. From the Vision expressed at the dedication ceremony:

"The Interagency Wildland Firefighters Monument is a place where people can appreciate, celebrate, reflect on, mourn, imagine and enjoy the wildland fire community’s endeavors and outcomes. The monument serves no single purpose or role; it is meant to be enjoyed by people from all walks of life."

Canyon fire from Lick Observatory, 3 minute pictures put into a Quicktime movie: mostly Plume, some fire at night.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/canyonFire.mov

Very nice. (Ab can't remember moniker. People, please add your moniker or initials at the bottom of your post.)

"In order to determine the effects of implementing this direction, the
attached monitoring plan must be completed and maintained between
now and the end of November."

Signed,
Where have you gone RQ? A region turns its lonely eyes to you...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 5130
Date: July 10, 2006
Route To:
Subject: Region 5 Engine Module Configuration Requirements
To: Forest Supervisors

Operating under the direction issued in the Region 5 Engine Staffing letter issued on May 22, 2006, has resulted in some unintended consequences negatively affecting program agility, budget, and capability to provide interagency support. In response, I am superseding the May 22, 2006 letter. The purpose of this direction is to meet the intent of that letter by providing adequate leadership on our engines, and simultaneously improve our organizational capacity and ability to respond. Of course, crew safety will always be the primary consideration when applying this direction.

The Region 5 Standard Fire and Fuels Management Module Organization (SFFMMO) was developed by the Fire and Aviation Management Board of Directors (BOD) and outlined in the March 29, 2005 letter with subject “Standard Fire and Fuels Management Module Organization.” The SFFMMO was approved by each Forest Supervisor, the Regional Fire Staff, and the BOD. The standard was developed to provide a cost-effective way of doing business while continuing to provide safety, leadership and operational effectiveness on the modules. The Region 5 standard module configuration has not changed; Region 5 will continue to follow the SFFMMO.

According to the SFFMMO, the standard staffing for Type III engines is five fire personnel per day, seven days per week. This is commonly referred to as 5.0 staffing. The daily configuration for 5.0 staffing continues to include an Engine Boss (ENGB) who is not driving the engine and a qualified driver with Class B license and appropriate endorsements. The remaining three positions are comprised of a combination of senior firefighters, an apprentice, and a temporary position as displayed in the SFFMMO.

Exceptions to the SFFMMO for Type III Engines:

1. Based on the unavailability of module personnel due to fire assignments, illness, or annual leave, the Duty Officer may direct an engine to respond to an incident while deviating from the standard 5.0 staffing. The minimum staffing level under this scenario will consist of a qualified Engine Boss (ENGB) who is not driving the engine, a qualified driver with Class B license and appropriate endorsements, and an additional qualified firefighter.

2. Under rare circumstances, limited to initial attack on the home unit and when outside the normal work day, a Duty Officer may dispatch an engine staffed only by a qualified Engine Boss (ENGB) with a Class B license and appropriate endorsements, and two additional qualified firefighters.

In order to determine the effects of implementing this direction, the attached monitoring plan must be completed and maintained between now and the end of November. The results will be reviewed and discussed by the BOD at their regularly scheduled meeting in December, where they will develop a recommendation as to whether to finalize this direction as a supplemental directive prior to fire season 2007.

Any questions or comments regarding this letter should be directed to Ed Hollenshead, Acting Regional FAM Director, at 707-562-8925. The March 2005 letter, associated attachments, and the May 2006 letter are enclosed for reference purposes.

/s/ Beth G. Pendleton (for)
BERNARD WEINGARDT
Regional Forester

Enclosures
cc: Ed Hollenshead
Peter Tolosano
Susie Stingley
Michael Lococo
Ralph Domanski
Forest Fire Management Officers

2006 Region 5 Engine Module Configuration Monitoring
Forest ________________

1/ Check all that apply
2/ Provide any information regarding the consequences (+/-) that can be attributed to responding with the modified level

Per North Ops @ 0800: Lightning activity in North Ops late last night from the Tahoe NF north through the eastern Plumas NF, Lassen NF and East Side PSA. Some isolated activity on the Shasta Trinity NF and Klamath NF. MWS

JDB

JDB

Well, hey, we all know where the REAL communication takes place! <haw, haw> Ab.

Rob

JDB

Been There

Great report! I’ve been out of the wildland firefighting business for a number of years now, but follow the activity closely. As I live in the Southern Sierra’s I’m always

Curious of where the troops are deployed and the status for a local response if needed.

As far as low level large frame aircraft are concerned, I have spent a lot of time in close proximity to this activity. I’m at a R&D facility where this type of op is not uncommon. I have to admit though it does tend to influence your situational awareness when you are that close to that much metal coming your way. However I have never experienced any issues with wake turbulence or any other type of vortex. This issue would be predominant for a smaller aircraft following the big guy. The normal wait period for smaller aircraft is generally 3 minutes for landing or take off. Our main runway is 200’ wide and it seems our greatest issue is FOD particularly on a take off roll.

This would be particulates being blown up onto the runway from the jet blast of a large frame aircraft.

I am curious as to thoughts regarding Evergreen’s 747. It’s capacity is 23,000 ga. As was noted in earlier comments, this large of tanker is not an every day use thing,

But I envision that in certain situations it would have a positive effect. Would this much water (not so much retardant) have a positive effect on humidity levels if dropped from altitude? It seems that this type of application could have a real effect on a fire environment. Any input here?

For my education….

R. Aday
ARFF Chief
KMHV

Ab.

We are talking about two different phenomena here:

1. Horizontal roll vortices -- this is a fire induced situation.
It occurs when there are low winds (less than 10 mph), average
humidities, and relatively flat ground. The largest one I
personally witnessed happened on July 1, 1988. The smoke columns
rise and are parallel to the ground. They then start to rotate --
like a horizontal tornado. Lastly, they collapse sending embers
down everywhere. Four of us were trapped in the fire. This
all happens within about two minutes. Also, this occurs during
low fire intensity and therefore causes a serious, sudden,
unexpected blowup.

2. Wing tip vortices -- this is from turbulence off the wing
tips of large air tankers. I have seen research on this but not
sure if it occurred during the situation I was in. I have been
told that wing tip vortices can accelerate horizontal roll vortices.

Somewhere, I have research papers on this. Also, it is discussed
on a video that was done on this fire. It grew to about 1200 acres
in four hours.

GC

Thanks GC. For those interested: Wake Turbulence Review
Sounds like the DC-10 was dropping from 300'. Ab.

Thanks for the real data regarding the DC 10 drops. Facts as you have posted them
are the basis for informed decision making. Good work on your part as always!

Yactak

Stanley

Thanks, I know that, just wondering why they are not being used after all the noise about deployment.

Yellow Angel
Thank you, I was in the neighborhood, wrong base; I am recalibrated.

The question still remains why are they not being used?

Ab

You have any thoughts on that?

Great information on the Carding of the DC-10. CDF is obviously being very methodical about this. I think this is both fiscally responsible and prudent from a safety standpoint. Well qualified lead plane, thought out plan for the operation.

By the way, is the pilot the only one on the CDF OV-10's or is he just a driver for the Airboss? I think I sometimes hear 2 different voices on the same AA but not sure. I suppose I could drive to the Ramona Base and ask, but it is hot there.

And thanks to "jimhart" for his informative post on the fuel situation.

Thank you Ab for all the good information exchange. Keeps people up to date and you jump in where BS erupts.

RJM

Inciweb on Little Venus. Ab.

Want to come out West?? We still have slots on our T2IA Crew:
Its a Forest Service regular hand crew; Call 541-498-2239

Ask for Robert or Jill.

“The OIG process has been bastardized through lack of experience in the investigative process by investigators and by meddling by the folks mentioned above (Rey and Bosworth). If the bill was implemented properly, a highly skilled cadre of wildland fire entrapment investigators would have been hired.... not a rag tag group of "fraud" investigators.”

Since you’re concerned about getting facts correct, I’m sure you know I am an advocate of professional investigations by culturally sympathetic wildland fire entrapment investigators. You said if the bill was implemented properly, a highly skilled cadre of wildland fire entrapment investigators would have been hired etc. I’m curious to know how you came by that FACT, and the FACTS about Bosworth & Rey. I’ve not heard a whisper anywhere of those FACTS before today.

You also said,

“The bill that was passed to require an independent investigation of Forest Service fatal fires WAS the DOC. HASTINGS bill introduced and passed in the House, NOT the Maria Cantwell version. Somehow, many people keep saying and pointing attacks at the Cantwell version without knowing the facts. Anyone who keeps saying the "Cantwell Bill" loses all credibility without speaking to JUST the facts and intent of the legislation...”

I’ll concede your point about the Hastings bill being the bill that was passed into law, but Hastings and Cantwell both submitted versions of a similar bill after Thirtymile. Doc Hastings seems to have faded out of the picture but Maria Cantwell is still out there stumping, now apparently for OSHA fines for firefighters.

But since you put “Cantwell Bill” in quote marks, I’d say I have a reason to complain about YOU misquoting me. Where did you find those words in my 7/12 post? Sounds to me like you’re trying to put words in my mouth and then attack me for them.

You also said,

“Somehow, the sh*t needs to start rolling uphill to effect change for firefighter safety. The folks who are resistant to change and who are causing the change for safety to fail, and result in increased risks to firefighters that are doing their jobs as they are trained and instructed..... and to be potential targets of civil and criminal prosecution for doing their jobs..... all along while the true problem (culprit) is never addressed or reaches the radar screen... should be the targets of any investigations... not the troops in the field.”

You’re preaching to the choir, Lobotomy. If you’ve been following my They Said rants, you know I’ve said that on many occasions in many ways. And I’ve gone beyond “somehow,” I have proposed that an investigation empowered on the level of the Dryden Investigation or Columbia Accident Investigation will be required to get us beyond our present predicament.

The knowledge and skills to do such an assessment exist in our country today, but it usually requires a great crisis for politicians to exercise the will to put forth such a proposition. My guess is that it will take 20+ people killed on a burnover to generate that level of political angst.

I usually like your posts but this sucker punch was weak and petty. I expected better from you.

Misery Whip

Just to add to what Dennis Brown and Ray Chaney posted regarding the use of the DC-10.

I was on the Sawtooth and saw how effective this aircraft can POTENTIALLY be. The two drops included a line of retardant 1.3 miles long and 26 feet wide with good saturation on the ground and no apparent debris was knocked out of the timber canopy onto the ground where the drops were made. This WILL NOT BE A REPLACEMENT FOR THE S-2T, but another tool in our toolbox. The cost: $26,500/hour with a three hour minimum plus the cost of the retardant at 12,000 gallons per load. That’s about a $100,000 commitment and it will take a minimum of 24 hours to activate the program. You won’t see it on initial attack at that cost! However, where there is a threat to life and property in urban interface areas or communities (such as last year’s Topanga fire in S.Cal), or infrastructure such as 500KV powerlines, the use would be warranted. More evaluation is needed and more training required, on how to best use this new tool, but the initial results are promising that this may become a viable tool.

Kelley Gouette
Battalion Chief/Air Operations
CDF/San Luis Obispo County Fire

Just in...... TC

Little Venus Wildland Fire Use
Shoshone National Forest, Wyoming

Yesterday afternoon, a ten-person Fire Use Module (USDI BLM – Grand
Junction District, Unaweep Fire Use Module) deployed fire shelters on the
Little Venus Fire Southwest of Cody, Wyoming. All crewmembers were safely
evacuated and no burn injuries were sustained. Crewmembers were evaluated
at a local hospital for smoke inhalation and were subsequently released.

Current fire size is estimated to be 10,000 acres. There is potential for
the fire to burn another 80,000 acres (within the originally defined MMA)
over the next six weeks.

Lightning ignited the fire on June 19, 2006 in the Venus Creek Drainage, 30
miles west of Meeteeste WY (T47N, R105W, Sec 28, 44 04' 56”, 109 24' 35").
Decision to manage as wildland fire use was based on initial size-up which
indicated that the fire

· Was located in an area approved for wildland fire use
· Posed little threat to private property and populated areas
· Would reduce fire hazard in an extensive area of beetle-killed spruce-fir/lodgepole

The Northern Rockies Fire Use Management Team (Weldon) developed a short
term plan for management and then a more in-depth long term assessment and
management plan. Although the fire is still burning entirely on Forest
Service ownership it has crossed the previously established eastern
boundary of the Maximum Manageable Area (MMA). Prior to July 18, 2006 the
fire burned within the parameters of both of those plans.

Strategy for management of this fire has shifted to suppression due to the
shelter deployment and threats to private land. Five (5) highly defendable
structures on private land and one owned by Wyoming Fish and Game
Department are threatened.

An investigation team has been ordered to determine the reasons for the
deployment. The team is being led by White River Forest Supervisor,
Maribeth Gustafson. Tim Foley, Grand Junction District - BLM is the DOI
representative on the team

Thanks for that info. Little Venus Fire website. Be Safe All. Ab.

DW

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The California Department of Forestry has carded and approved for use a DC-10 airtanker. This aircraft is owned and operated by "10 Tanker Air Carrier, LLC" and will be for CDF use only at this time dropping only within the State's Direct Protection Area, (DPA). The aircraft is based and will be working and reloading out of the Victorville airport only at this time.

The aircraft will be carrying 12,000 gallons of retardant and has an interim Interagency Airtanker Board approval. The DC-10 tanker has been assigned the designator of Tanker 910.

The following operational considerations have been put in place by the evaluation team as precautions for the overall safety of this operation and any other incident aircraft that are assigned to incidents that it may be working. As this aircraft is worked on actual incidents and experience with the aircraft in different terrain and conditions are observed, these
considerations may be adjusted one way or the other.

1. The pilots are carded for airtanker drops, but are not initial attack rated.
2. All runs by this airtanker will be conducted with and under the supervision of a Leadplane. At present, CDF is assigning one of their OV-10 Broncos with a qualified Leadplane pilot (recently retired Forest Service Leadplane pilot) for this mission. Until such time as the Forest Service or BLM begins using this asset, this will be the only approved Leadplane combination that will be used with Tanker 910. If the CDF "Lead" is not available, the DC-10 will not be used.
3. No integration with other incident aircraft is planned for at this time. ATGS and Lead will assure that other incident aircraft are separated sufficiently to avoid any potential conflicts. As information is gathered and people get used to the capabilities and limitations of this aircraft different parameters may be developed.
4. Every attempt will be made not to disrupt the flow of other incident aircraft with the use of the DC-10. Other aircraft will remain clear of the drop area of this aircraft for 3 minutes after the drop run as per standard FAA wake turbulence avoidance procedures. ATGS and Lead will advise incident aircraft of this and not clear aircraft into this area during this period.

Flight profiles for this aircraft during testing were not that much different then a conventional large airtanker and should not require any large increase in airspace requirements to complete this mission. Drop characteristics are also similar as they are using a constant flow tank similar to what you would see on a P-3 or an Erickson Skycrane. Drop heights will be kept higher, in the 200 to 300 foot range due to the increased volumes available and to make sure that initially we are not causing any problems on the ground. Again, this tanker has interim approval from the IAB and has demonstrated that they can make drops safely from 200'.

The Forest Service is working with 10 Tanker Air Carrier, LLC towards approval as well, but additional information and documentation to meet current Forest Service requirements is required.

Dennis W. Brown
Pacific Southwest Region
Aviation Safety Manager

Here's Lobotomy's specific breakdown: Teams Committed or On Order - 07/18/06

"On 7/12 you said... "Speaking of investigations, I found an interesting article today on Thirtymile and Maria Cantwell’s continuing misguided campaign to punish firefighters who make errors in judgment."
I usually agree with you and applaud your posts, but this time I have to step in and disagree..."

I found your remarks right on target and you captured my thinking perfectly. Well said man, and thanks for the facts!

Sign me,

GGFire

What are the differences between the two and what are the potential safety implications, if any, for firefighters on the ground? Ab.

AL

You have to ask yourself what is carrying the fire. Well, what was carrying
the fire on the Sawtooth the first two or three days was heavy grass
cover (heavier than normal due to sufficient rain during the short desert
growing season), with scattered jackpots of heavier fuel. Does that sound
familiar? With Fuel Model 2 and 35 mph winds and fuel mositures in the sub
5% range, BEHAVE outputs are ROS 1865 Ft/minnad 48' flames. This is in the
realm of what I saw. It was very similar to fuel model 2, so we used fuel
model 2. The report is accurate. And I am not on the investigation team, I
do have intimate knowledge of the fire behavior.

Fireball XL5

Avian Influenza Bulletin Number 3

July 14, 2006

There have been numerous developments in the planning for a possible avian influenza outbreak and/or a human influenza pandemic in the United States since Avian Influenza Bulletin #2. The purpose of today’s bulletin is to summarize some of those developments and give everyone some indication of Forest Service actions and things to come.

USDA Avian Flu Brochure

USDA has produced an avian flu brochure that will be distributed nationwide over the next few weeks. The brochure is an excellent document for employees and their families to reference for information concerning avian flu. The brochure addresses such issues as: What is the avian influenza? How can people be affected by avian influenza? What USDA is doing to protect the United States, including wild bird surveillance and testing. Due to the potential for avian influenza
along bird migratory routes, the first production run of the brochures will be distributed to USDA northwest locations, including FS visitor centers. The second production run will be distributed nationally to FS regions.

Interagency DOI/FS Response and Preparedness Plan

The Draft Interagency Response and Preparedness Plan is under review at DOI and was presented to the Forest Service Executive Leadership Team (ELT) on July 11. The ELT is reviewing the plan and will provide comments on the draft to the interagency committee developing the plan. Additional information is needed from OPM related to personnel issues and policies, which may delay finalizing the plan. The plan contains numerous appendixes including interim plans by USDA’s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) for personal protective equipment requirements for responders to a highly pathogenic avian influenza event, as well as deployment screening questionnaires and other key information and checklists.

R/S/A Influenza Workforce Protection Plans

Nearly all R/S/As have reported that they have drafted and/or published Influenza Workforce Protection Plans. Many R/S/As continue to provide the Washington Office (WO) with updates to their plans. The next step will be to test the plans for viability. We expect to receive additional guidance on testing in the coming month.

COOP and the WO Influenza Workforce Plan

The Washington Office is currently soliciting input to the WO Avian Influenza Workforce Plan Annex to the WO Continuity of Operation (COOP) Plan from members of the Associate Deputy Chief’s Working Group for Avian Influenza. Comments, additions, and recommended changes will be integrated into the annex before final approval and before addition to the WO COOP Plan. Once the annex is published, the WO will implement the plan through a series of employee notification tests and table-top exercises.

A COOP Plan and Avian Influenza/Pandemic Annex is also under development for the Albuquerque Service Center.

OPM Guidelines Update

The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) Pandemic Influenza Information website is located at:
http://opm.gov/pandemic/. This new feature provides employee and agency guidance for existing policies relating to hiring and leave flexibilities, and medical program management. Additionally, a number of important links are made available and the site is updated regularly.

Avian Influenza Surveillance Program

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is working with the Departments of Agriculture, the Interior, and Health and Human Services to monitor bird populations for the earliest possible detection of the H5N1 virus if it enters this country. The plan contains five major strategies:

• Testing wild birds that have died or are sick offers the highest and earliest probability of detecting the H5N1 strain should it be introduced into this country by migratory birds. This strategy expands existing programs to investigate disease outbreaks.
• Sample testing of live wild birds will target those species that represent the highest risk of being exposed to, or infected with, the H5N1influenza strain because of their migration patterns. Many populations of migratory birds that nest in Alaska
  spend winter in parts of Asia where the virus is endemic.
• Sample testing of hunter-killed and subsistence harvested birds at check stations operated by the USFWS and State natural resource agencies supplements the samples from live wild birds.
• Monitoring and testing of sentinel animals such as duck flocks that can be placed in wetland areas where they will commingle with wild birds. The ducks are then monitored and tested for the virus.
• Environmental sampling monitors water and/or fecal samples from waterfowl habitat. The USFWS has submitted or finalized funding agreements with the States of WA, NV, UT, MT, and OR, and with the U.S. Geological Survey, to fund wild bird surveillance in Pacific Flyway States other than Alaska.

The USFWS in Alaska currently has 16 projects in the field collecting samples from live birds. July is anticipated to be the busiest sampling time, with 28 projects in the field at peak sampling. To date, 3,626 live birds in Alaska have been tested and the H5N1 virus has not been detected.

Employee and Public Awareness Effort

The best thing you can do for yourself, coworkers, and your family is to find out everything you can about avian influenza and pandemic influenza outbreaks. The potential for the avian influenza to mutate and become a human influenza pandemic
continues to receive a lot of media coverage and is of concern to everyone. The White House and all of the Federal Government are working diligently to prepare and plan for this contingency. A critical part of that effort includes publishing communication products on websites to support Government, State, and individual and community planning efforts.

Keywebsites include:

General Information:

• www.avianflu.gov/
• www.pandemicflu.gov
• www.usda.gov/birdflu
• fsweb.wo.fs.fed.us/fire/fam/avian.html

Prevention: avoiding the spread of colds and flu – workplace hygiene

• www.cdc.gov/flu/protect.htm
• www.cdc.gov/germstopper/resources.htm

Preparedness:

• www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/pdf/individuals.pdf (small pdf file)
• www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/pdf/guide.pdf (small pdf file)

Hunter precautions and field biologists handling wild birds:

• http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/wildlife_health_bulletins/

What is Going On in Your State?

As mentioned before, it is the individuals’ responsibility to find out everything they can about avian influenza and pandemic  influenza outbreaks.

Another source of information, in addition to the Federal Government, USDA, and the Forest Service Web sites mentioned above is the State/locality information site.

If you go to: www.pandemicflu.gov/usamap.html and click on your State, you will find out such things as the status of your State pandemic planning; local State agriculture, health, and wildlife information; Federal funding assistance for States; and other related information. This information, in case of an outbreak of avian influenza, may be critical to you and your family’s health and welfare.

"If I was an investigator and investigating wildland firefighter fatalities or near miss incidents, I would start at the top and look at the statement(s) of the folks who really make decisions... Mr. Mark Rey and Chief Dale Bosworth. Recent Congressional Testimony (both House and Senate) can be proven to be factually incorrect and leaning towards contempt of Congress... if not outright perjury."

I wonder if you or others in the wildland fire community can clarify and give facts about what has been said to the Congress, the public, and our local elected officials..... and how that info differs from what is actually happening on the ground? There seems to be lots of confusion about how the federal agencies are prepared for this fire season, and they seem to be missing the boat somehow.

I also wonder if the Q man is still out there as a "new" retiree amongst other retirees who have a great interest in wildand fire...#1 Goal keeping folks safe...... now is the time to speak up my friends to protect firefighters.

Lobotomy, any facts? Or are we going to wait to the end of fire season to calculate our "losses" yet again?

Gizmo

noname

Thanks, this was posted on the Hot List Forum yesterday as well. Text sent in by SPFDBC below. Ab.

National Aviation Office
Bureau of Land Management
3833 South Development Avenue
Boise, Idaho 83705

Notice: Temporary Stand Down

Due to the frequency, and number of Aviation Incidents involving aircraft owned and operated by New Frontier Aviation, of Ft. Benton Montana, all the Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs) owned and/or operated by New Frontier Aviation, of Ft. Benton, Montana will be temporarily stood down for a period of not less than 48 hours, pending a review by Aviation Management Directorate.

This “Stand Down” is to be effective starting at 1000 MDT, on July 17, 2006.

A Notice will be issued when these aircraft are to be returned to service.

During this time period, no SEAT of New Frontier Aviation will be flown, but will remain on Availability, unless otherwise identified as unavailable.

The following SEATs are those identified by AMD as the aircraft affected.

T-461 M18 N4326M
T-464 M18 N92043
T-466 M18T N466AT
T-475 M18T N4QT
T-463 M18 N9152X
T-470 M18T N13458
T-471 M18T N7813T
T-489 M18T N110AF
T-469 M18T N116BS
T-455 M18T N455TG
T-467 S2r-660-T65 N660TR
T-407 AT802 N48523H
T-472 AT802 C-GLLG

If you have any questions please contact the National SEAT Coordinator ( 208-387-5419)or the National SEAT Program Manager (208-387-5872)
_________________________

SPFDBC

Thanks for what you do, jimhart, for firefighters and for fire. Ab.

Thanks for the Hot List forum and thanks to the dispatchers and others who let us know about breaking fires. I also use other links on the news page, the gaccs, the wildweb, the maps. Could you please add ESRI to the maps list, at least for this season? (I even had a scanner link running in the background the other day.)

I'm also finding your CA Fires '06 useful as it includes fires from CDF and counties as well as fed. It's nice to have the links all in one place.

Tahoe Terrie

Added ESRI.
We appreciate the thanks. We also appreciate the contributions of the wildlandfire.com community. Ab.

www.inciweb.org/

Todd

Maybe they're transitioning to including the Heart Incident. For what's going on there check CA Fires '06. Ab.

Weather, for one day a friend, could become firefighters' foe
also: A unique DC-10 helps crews.
www.pe.com

The DC-10, capable of hauling four times as much water or fire retardant as the largest conventional air tankers, made two passes over the Sawtooth Complex Fire. The jet dumped a swath of red retardant that stretched three-quarters of a mile between the fire front and the Big Bear mountain resort, said Rick Hatton.

The DC-10 made 2 drops yesterday and built 3/4 mile of retardant line.
It was very successful for treating a large prominent ridgeline.

Here are the requirements the all current tanker pilots have to meet:

50 drops on active fires
200 hours of low level and mountain
100 hours in the last 12 months
3 letters of recommendation from Lead Plane Pilots
2 letters of recommendation from IA captains

I don't know if the DC-10 pilot has to meet these requirements.

Fly

Nice maps. I added a link to the running CA Fires '06 page. Ab.

Fuel Model 2

Characteristics
This type consists of open grown pine stands. Trees are widely
spaced with few understory shrubs or regeneration. Ground
cover consists of mountain grasses/and or needles and small
woody litter. This model occurs in open-grown and mature
Ponderosa pine stands in the foothill to montane zone.

Common Species/Species
The predominate tree species is Ponderosa pine. This type may
include some scattered Douglas fir. Other tree and shrub
species include Common and Rocky Mountain Juniper,
Buckbrush, Bitter brush, and Mountain

Were the investigators who issued the report trained in fire behavior, human factors, and fuels identification? More info is needed... the 72 Hour Report is flawed and should be flushed.... FUBAR.

Gizmo

I was a member of the EL Cariso Hotshots in 1961 and 1962. In 1962 we were issued orange fire retardant shirts. We had metal hardhats, bought our own boots and clothing. Most of us had our own survival kit made up of war surplus canteen covers and metal cup. We carried fish hooks, bullion cubes salt and a few other small items.

This web site is a great site! I enjoy reading any information on old crews and I try to keep up with the fires and crews of today. My days as a Hot Shot are treasured. I have a few pictures and film of fires back then from Southern California to Idaho and Montana. I worked for Doug Campbell, Gordon King and Marvin Stout in 1961 and 1962.

Thanks for your website.

Richard A. “Buddy” Vandiver

Welcome Buddy. One of the old guys, eh. I'd be happy to send your message on to Doug and Gordon. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Marvin. Ab.

GREEN SHEET/72 HOUR REPORT

A Joint Investigation By:
Bureau of Land Management
San Bernardino County Fire Department and
California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection

Wildland Fire Entrapment
Minor Burn Injuries and Smoke Inhalation

Fire Engine Damage

Command Vehicle Damage

July 11, 2006

Sawtooth Complex

Incident Number 06-CA-BDU-007229
Accident Investigation Incident Number CA-CSR-059

SUMMARY

The following information is a preliminary summary of an incident with entrapments that occurred on a vegetation fire in which fire engines and a command vehicle received minor fire damage. Four firefighters suffered minor injuries.

CONDITIONS

Location:
Incident 1 - involving BLM Captain 3636 occurred approximately two miles southwest of the intersection of Keys Ranch Road and Pioneertown Road, which is located approximately 1 and 1/2 miles northwest of Pioneertown.

Incident 2 - involving San Bernardino County Fire Department (BDC) Engine 122 occurred at Paloma Avenue and Lariat Trails, in Pioneertown.

Incident 3 - involving BDC Engine 122B occurred on Lariat Trails near Paloma Avenue, in Pioneertown.

[LOCATION  MAP]

Fuel:
Type: Fuels in the Pioneertown area are a mix of (Fuel Model 2) Pinyon Pine, California Juniper with scattered Joshua Trees, and a heavy grass component.

Loading: The fuel bed ranged from 2-3ft. in height. Fuel loadings varied 2-5 tons per acre.

Continuity: Fuel was very continuous with no significant break in the continuity.

Live Fuel Moisture: Evaluations indicated live fuel moisture of 58%. The fuel loading was higher than that of the normal limits due to the above normal rainfall in 2004 and 2005.

Dead Fuel Moisture: Fine dead fuel moisture indicated 1 hour time-lag fuel moisture of 3-4%. The ignition probability of a firebrand landing in receptive fuels was 100%

Weather:
Temperature: High 90s
Relative Humidity: 5-8%
Winds: Southwest 11-20 mph G 37

Fire Behavior:
The burning conditions were caused by an upper-level trough which passed over Southern California, resulting in strong gusty winds over the fire area. The weather combined with heavy fuels created extreme burning conditions. These weather conditions were not forecasted in the morning fire weather. On scene fire personnel reported very extreme wind gusts, plume dominated fire behavior, and area ignition.

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS

Incident 1 - BLM Captain 3636

On July 11, 2006, at approximately 1332 hours, BLM E3636, E3632, and BLM DIV 3604 were dispatched for structure protection in the Pioneertown area. Captain 3636 responded separately in his utility vehicle.

Arriving at the scene ahead of the engine crews, Captain 3636 met with CDF Prevention 3522 and received the instructions to drive to Keys Ranch Road then head west to evaluate structures for protection. Captain 3636 met CDF E3586 along Keys Ranch Road and instructed them to follow him further up an unnamed road to assist in fire protection.

Approximately one mile up the road in a northwest direction they arrived at a large residential structure with approximately a three-quarter acre clearing adjacent to it. A civilian at the scene told Captain 3636 there were two more residential structures toward the mouth of the canyon where the fire was approaching. Captain 3636 then radioed DIV 3604 instructing him to hold all incoming resources at the large three-quarter acre clearing (safety zone) while he scouted further.

The road narrowed and had thick vegetation on both sides but Captain 3636 could still observe the fire’s progress and felt he could proceed safely based on the fire behavior. He continued until he reached a large two-story residential structure at the end of the road.

Before he had time to get out of his vehicle to assess the structure, the fire front hit with black out conditions including high velocity winds and extreme heat. Realizing that he had no escape options, he remained in his vehicle while the fire front passed by him.

Captain 3636 radioed DIV 3604 to let him know of his situation. He then radioed P3522 on RED net to ask for air support. Given the extreme conditions of wind and smoke, air support was not feasible.

While taking refuge in his vehicle Captain 3636 crawled into the back seat of his vehicle and pulled his fire shelter out of his web gear for easier access if needed. He returned to the driver seat to back up his vehicle due to fire impingement to the front of the vehicle.

Captain 3636 maintained his refuge in the vehicle until the smoke and flames had visibly cleared and he knew the fire front had passed. He radioed DIV 3604 and P3522 to let them know he was safe.

Incident 2 - San Bernardino County E122

On July 11, 2006 at approximately 1300 hours, San Bernardino County E122 was assigned to provide structure protection for homes in the Pioneertown area, as part of a structure protection group on the Sawtooth Complex Fire.

The task force group leader BDC BC 137 was in charge of BDC E121, E122, E36, E451 and E122B. E122B was operated by the City of 29 Palms Fire Department Station 421 personnel.

After the task force began clearing vegetation from around structures, they were called to provide support for strike teams in the Keys Ranch Road area. The groups fought fire using bump and run tactics and then returned to the Paloma Avenue and Lariat Trails to continue providing structure protection. The crew returned to the residential structure clearing brush, then noticed the changing fire behavior. High velocity winds blew into their assigned area causing the fire to rapidly spread towards their location. The engine crew took refuge in E122 to escape the extreme fire activity. While taking shelter in the rear of the engine cab, the crew heard escaping refrigerate gas from the roof-mounted air conditioning unit.

The fire blew over E122; the captain evaluated crew conditions and returned to the pre-established safety zone of San Bernardino County Fire Station 38. BC137 performed group safety checks and medical treatment was provided to crew members by a county medic ambulance. Three firefighters were treated for minor burns and smoke inhalation and were transported to a local area hospital.

Incident 3 – 29 Palms E122B

BDC E122B, operated by City of 29 Palms personnel, positioned at two residential structures on Lariat Trails. The crew prepared for structure protection and observed the fire at a distance, estimating a half mile from their location moving towards them at a moderate rate of spread. The crew continued to protect the structures when the fire spread increased significantly. The crew sought refuge in the garage of the residence.

The smoke level in the garage began to drop and the heat increased as the roof of the garage ignited and the house burned. Due to the Fire Captain’s command presence, the crew remained calm and escaped through a garage window and observed their engine still intact. They entered the engine and drove back to the strike team pre-established safety zone at San Bernardino County Station 38.

During the drive to the fire station the crew experienced zero visibility. At one point they slowed down to make a turn near a burning Joshua tree where the engine received minor damage. A firefighter sitting in the back of the open rear cab fire engine sustained minor burns to her back when turning away from the radiant heat. She wore all her wildland PPE.

The fire engine and crew arrived safely at the pre-established safety zone and the injured firefighter was treated for the burn injury and transported by ambulance to the hospital. There she was treated and released returning back to her crew.

INJURIES/DAMAGES

Incident 1 - BLM Captain 3636
Injuries

• No injuries.

Damage

• The damage of the BLM command vehicle consisted of: melted front vehicle lenses; melted the driver-side mirror; and minor scorching to the paint at the front and rear of the vehicle.

Incident 2 - San Bernardino County E122
Injuries

• 1 firefighter received minor burns, and was transported to a local area hospital treated and released. The firefighter was released from duty for one day due to the injury.
• 2 firefighters were observed for smoke inhalation, treated and released.

Damage

• Damage to BDC E122 consisted of: moderate blistering of paint on left side of the engine; melting of the rubber seal around the driver’s side rear cab window which cracked the windshield; melting of the plastic gauge covers and plastic name plates on the pump panel; melting of the light bar on top of the cab; damage to the air conditioning system on the roof of the cab; and melting of the rear hose bed covers.

Incident 3 - Palms E122B
Injuries

• 1 firefighter from the City of 29 Palms Fire Department from Station 421 suffered minor first degree burns on the right shoulder and neck, and smoke inhalation. The firefighter was treated at the hospital and was released.

Damage
• The damage to BDC 122B operated by 29 Palms Station 421 personnel consisted of: cracked windshield and side window; melted pump panel gauges; and minor scorching of the body paint on the front of the cab.

SAFETY ISSUES FOR REVIEW

• Continue to re-evaluate fire weather and current burning conditions.
• Line supervisors need to continually weigh risk versus benefit in their strategy and tactics.
• Review the practice of taking refuge inside fire engines and vehicles as a last resort while in light flashy fuels during fire suppression activities.
• Review the practice of taking refuge in structures as a last resort.

You can download the report in doc form here: Sawtooth Entrapment 72 Hr Report

For those interested in what larger aircraft and those flying in their vicinity have to
contend with, here's a good discussion of wake turbulence.

Wake Turbulence Review

Bob

Anyone know what the fire training requirements are for the pilot? Is it the same as for current AT pilots?

Prop-wash can affect fire on the ground. Anyone know what wake turbulence does to fire on the ground or to the "fire environment" above the fire? Ab.

DS

On the Big Bear scanner they were warning ground crews there was a big drop coming.

Here's the story and some info on the DC-10:
www.pe.com/digitalextra/metro/wildfires/stories/PE_News_Local_D_tanker15.2

JC

To my knowledge CDF only has Type 1 Incident Management Teams, and I believe there are 10 in the state. They never had type 2 IMTs, because local resources command all incidents until a Type 1 Team is requested.

Question: Do their Type1 IMTs train to the NWCG levels for Type 1, like attendance at 520?

From my past experience in CDF they are trained at the same levels as National IMTs. When I worked CDF before my retirement the end of 2003, they annually required all IMT members to attend refresher courses as set by the national level.

Captain Ron S (ret)

Goes back to the beginning days of NWCG 310-1. ICS is/was supposed to max at the 400 level of training. Remember it is supposed to all inclusive of any/all wildland agencies nationally.

The Feds wanted to continue to do something more so they did the 520/620 thing, used to be known as Fire Generalship during the LFO period. Those classes were the after-actions related to fatality fires in the mid/late 50's. Feds, mostly USFS, did things like used internal direction dictating what they considered Type 1 Teams. The other fed agencies went along so they could play at that level. No other levels of govt. needed higher training to be NIIMS compliant. So, when CDF started going to preset teams is the late eighties, they fit the 310-1 requirements for a Type 1 TM. During the same period it could have been said that the Fed "T2 " teams were actually, in many cases, performing as T1 teams; as long as you went with the NWCG 310-1. And, that document has/had its roots in FIRESCOPE.

The States (not just CDF & FP) have now developed an equivalent program to the Fed 520 class (not sure about 620 level). And I believe that it was been put on at least once, if not more times.

The stated reason for not using CDF teams on R5 FS fires had to do with reciprocity issues. CDF said that Fed T1 teams would not be used on state incidents but they were okay with working fed incidents. The consequences was the almost total exclusion on CDF participation in the Fed 520 Advanced Incident Class in the recent past.

Not sure how the CDF teams would fit into the single "I" NIMS definitions of incident complexity and typing that's out there now.

Still a duffer.

The Fire Planning and Mapping Tools runs a day or more behind in posting updates.

Ab.

Update, National Type I Team status: Team 2 (Molumby) has been ordered for the Millard Complex. Team 5 (Dietrich) will stand down due to fire activity on the IC's home forest. Team 1 (Feser) will be on 2 hr call in California and Team 3 will be on 2 hr call National. Team 4 (Opliger) is on assignment in Quesnel British Columbia. MWS

Todd

Be Safe everyone.

NorCal Tom

52 Club sign-up

Also the latest versions allow you to "hover" over the picture and a box pops up in the upper left corner allowing SAVE, PRINT, EMAIL or OPEN My PICTURES. Lose the box, just move the pointer off the picture then back on it.

Trying to be helpful.

RJM

Date: May 30, 2006
Route To:
Subject: Results of Review of Engine Captain Positions
To: Regional Foresters

I recently directed the Human Capital Management (HCM) staff to convene a small team of classification specialists and fire management subject matter experts from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the Forest Service to review the classification of Supervisory Forestry Technician (Engine Captain) positions at the GS-08 level. In early April, the team reviewed both the supervisory and non-supervisory work of GS-08 Engine Captain positions, and expanded their findings to encompass all engine types. I have accepted their determination that the GS-08 grade level is supportable for an Engine Captain of a Type III or IV engine in areas with the added complexities of wildland-urban interface, including proximity of high-value improvements, and regular and recurring all-hazard incidents and frequent interagency jurisdictional issues and coordination requirements, and that the GS-07 grade level is supportable for all engine types when these complexities are not present.

It is important to note that the difference in grade does not represent a difference in the Agency’s performance expectations for knowledge, skills and abilities of an Engine Captain; they are the same for all Engine Captains, regardless of engine type. This is particularly salient as it supports our mobile forces concept for fire suppression, use, and support.

The interagency classification team will be developing an interagency position description for a GS-08 Engine Captain within the next few months. In the meantime, new Agency Position Files (APFs) in Avue have been established by the HCM Staff for your use. See enclosure for classification guidance and the list of APF’s.

Where it is determined that upgrades to encumbered positions are warranted, you are authorized to proceed with non-competitive promotions based on a reclassification study of this work. Where it is determined that existing grade levels are correct, it will be necessary to reassign employees to new position descriptions; however, we are asking that you hold off on reassignments until the interagency position descriptions have been developed. As a reminder, in accordance with CFR 511.704(a) (4), an employee whose position is upgraded is not entitled to back pay.

Questions may be directed to Joan Shelly, HR Specialist (Classification) at
(215) 257-3190 or via e-mail to jmshelly@fs.fed.us.

/s/ Dale N. Bosworth
DALE N. BOSWORTH
Chief

Enclosure

cc: Michael Bunten
pdl wo OPS HRM class officers
pdl wo OPS HRM employment officers
pdl wo OPS HRM personnel officers
Kathy Burgers
Tom Harbour

Video clip (large 4730K wmv file)

Fire Geek

Here's a Desert Sun news article to accompany the video clip; about halfway down.
http://cgi.desert-sun.com/firelive.shtml

very kewl.

Millard and Sawtooth Complex Maps, captured from a real-time fire and mapping tool

You can add or subtract features like cities and communities, SRA of CDF, BLM, FS, wilderness, etc. In several maps I had the locator on and there's a little box in the upper lefthand corner that shows where in California the fires are burning. In one I highlighted the wilderness option. You can zoom in to see street names.

Again, thanks to GIS Girl for her big part this project. I'm sorry she's left BLM, but know her KSAs will continue to benefit fire.

Ab.

Ab,

I've been in direct contact with immediate family of one of the 4-man crew injured Tuesday 7/11/06; Sawtooth Complex. He was back to work next day. Only a guess; based on my understanding of the incident; the 3 others are probably in the same condition.

This is really kicking. Tuesday PM had aerial attack directly over my house; too many passes to count. Watched successful burn-out terminate 1/4 mile from my home. It's all they report: hi temps, winds, etc.
Many thanks to all firefighters doing the jobs they do - be safe.

MP

Good enough. By the way, I was looking at all the mapping options available on the wlf.com News page Fire Maps links and was really appreciating your contributions: Fire Planning & Mapping Tools from the California Fire Alliance & USGS. You did some very fine work on that. Who would think that firefighters could GPS the fire boundaries upload it and we have instant info on the web... and the Public can go get it, you don't have to send it to them and it can help them make choices about when and where to evacuate. Remarkable.
Best of everything in your new job. (Glad to see you're still posting.) Ab.

Here we go! Everybody comes home...

SoCal CDF

You are correct, FS uses NS threads on inch and a half, and NPSH Tapered
on one inch. I keep this note in my wallet so I don't have to remember when
purchasing fittings.

Old Sawyer.

AL

I heard the accident investigation team was supposed to be there today. Be safe all. Ab.

Ab hopes everyone who can attend will do so.

I'm in the process of designing foam nozzles for all common sizes of
wildland hose- 3/4" is easy, but I'm having trouble finding the
appropriate fitting(s) for 1" & 1.5" hose. If I remember correctly
1.5" has NST threads while 1" has NPSH. (Please correct me if I'm
wrong..)

So my dilemma is this: I can make the nozzle but without the proper
threads it's useless to everyone. The potential fix? Next time someone
busts a hose, could you chop the ends off & send 'em to me? Then I can
be certain while wandering around the plumbing shop that I'm getting
the right thing. (That act of kindness will place you ontop of the
"test this please" list..)

If I had a wildland type station nearby I'd just go ask, but...

Thanks Much-
KRS

Readers, for those who don't know KRS, he's a creative ex-hotshot. Take a look at one of his useful creations, for sale on wildlandfire.com: King Radio - Cell Phone Adapter. Ab.

This Space Available

Many thanks. Ab.

Noname

If you're interested in following breaking fires and not registered for the Hot List Forum, you're missing out. It's easy. Click the News button in the header. Ab.

www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/07/11/news/state/20-columbusfire_g.txt

MT FF

I checked and added the new one to the Current California Fires '06 page. Ab.

You need to check with your local forest for your availability. The Plumas
requested multiple times agency or local government engines but none were
available. We did manage to get on a few local government engines but the
only thing available were contractors. SO check with your boss to find out
were the problem really lies.

JE

I think it should say Preliminary Findings or Preliminary Subjective Findings,
not Preliminary Factual Findings. Lets not bias things here before we really
have some detailed facts.

I'm glad they got the report out. I'm glad both firefighters are OK.

Tahoe Terrie

After the first day of the Boulder fire, the GACC requested 15 engines, (Type
Any) and 10 crews T2, (no other types were avail) from NICC. Then after
they passed inspection, and were all committed, the GACC requested 10
crews and 15 more engines. After they passed, all but about 5 were committed
to fires, the others were hosted by local forests.

When the fires started releasing resources, the contract resources were the
first resources to be released, we kept them available locally until resource
that had been out of GACC were rested up and had returned to duty.

Sure WildCAD might have "said" resources were sitting. Think that through.
Some were o/s, some not staffed, some on mandatory R/R or the forest was on
drawdown and no more could be sent.

If you didn't think much was going on in the Pacific Southwest Region the
last two weeks or so, you haven't been at NOPS or SOPS these last few
weeks.

NOPS

Appreciate the insights. Ab.

HR 5697 Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act has Passed in the House Committee on Government Reform. It is now in the House. The Bill is attached below.

Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act (Introduced in House) HR 5697 IH

                               109th CONGRESS
                                 2d Session
                                 H. R. 5697

 To provide for the appropriate designation of certain Federal positions
 involved in wildland fire suppression activities.

                      IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                               June 28, 2006

 Mr. POMBO (for himself and Mr. PORTER) introduced the following bill;
 which was referred to the Committee on Government Reform.

                                   A BILL

 To provide for the appropriate designation of certain Federal positions
 involved in wildland fire suppression activities.

       Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
       United States of America in Congress assembled,

 SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

       This Act may be cited as the `Federal Wildland Firefighter
       Classification Act'.

 SEC. 2. REQUIREMENT.

       (a) In General- In the administration of chapter 51 of title 5,
       United States Code, the Office of Personnel Management shall ensure
       that the official title assigned under such chapter to any class or
       other category of positions described in subsection (b) shall
       include the designation of `Wildland Firefighter' or words to that
       effect.

       (b) Applicability- This section shall apply in the case of any class
       or other category of positions that consists primarily or
       exclusively of forest technician positions, range technician
       positions, or any other category of positions the duties and
       responsibilities of which may include significant wildland fire
       suppression activities (as determined by the Office).

 SEC. 3. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.

       Nothing in this Act shall be considered to require any change in the
       pay, benefits, or other terms or conditions of employment that apply
       with respect to any category of employees or positions.

 SEC. 4. DEFINITIONS.

       For purposes of this Act--

             (1) the terms `class', `employee', and `position' shall have
             the meanings set forth in section 5102 of title 5, United
             States Code; and

             (2) the terms `forest technician position' and `range
             technician position' shall have the meanings specified by the
             Office of Personnel Management.

Mellie (ps, I miss John Wendt at times like this. He had lots of savvy answers.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: Please see the text immediately below, from
Ethics Advisor Lori Delgado in the Washington Office. As the attachments
state, Forest Service personnel are no longer allowed to sit, in their
official capacities, as fiduciary members of non-Federal organizations.
The message requires me to send the W.O. a written report next month. To
make it possible for me to send the folks in Washington a valid report, I
ask that each forest supervisor and each staff director send me either (a)
the name of any person within that supervisor's or director's organization
who is sitting in his or her official capacity as a fiduciary -- i.e. a board
member, executive committee member, or the like -- of any non-Federal
organization, or (b) send me a negative report saying that no employees
within that supervisor's or director's organization are so involved.

Please understand that this is not a matter of misconduct. The strict
prohibition against participation in a fiduciary role is new. Employees
may have been quite properly participating as fiduciaries in non-Federal
entities in the past. But according to new national guidelines, I must
verify that any persons in any such roles are notified to resign from such
positions. So no corrective or punitive action will be contemplated
(unless someone refuses to resign his or her fiduciary position in a
non-Federal organization), although some employees may have to modify the
roles they have in those other organizations.

Thank you. I look forward to hearing from each of you. Please respond to
me, with either a list of names or a negative report, no later than August 1. <snip>

• All radio communication on tactical, command and air-to-ground
  frequencies will be in the English language.
• All supervisors of personnel engaged in fire suppression and prescribed
  fire operations will be able to read write and speak English sufficient to
  understand and communicate in English. All supervisors must also be able to
  communicate in the language of the individuals they directly supervise.
• These standards will be applied to agency and contracted personnel.

Also found in the Red-Book in Appendix Z. Crew bosses and FFT1s.

Anyone have the documentation reference of requirements for overhead of Spanish-speaking only crews? As I recall, last year there was a regulation that the overhead of a Spanish-speaking crew needed to speak Spanish to be able to direct their crew. At some point it was discovered that one crew's overhead could not speak English... It only makes sense that they should be able to communicate both up- and down-stream --> bilingual. Ab.

In Reply
Refer To: 9210 (UT-020)

July 11, 2006

To: Glenn Carpenter Salt Lake Field Office Manager and Acting Associate State Director

Subject: Expanded (72 hour) Report for Scorpio Fire Entrapment

The following report is the Expanded 72 Hour Report for the incident involving two fire fighters entrapped during burnout operations on the Scorpio Fire. This report contains information from the preliminary report previously given on the NFES 0869 as well as additional details regarding the incident. This report is a preliminary report and is subject to change. The final report will follow within 45 days.

Personnel entrapped on the Scorpio Fire

Greg Vander Werff – Shelter was deployed, injury was a second degree burn to left arm/elbow
Fred Alldredge – Entrapped on fire, no shelter deployment, no injuries

Introduction

On June 30, 2006 two firefighters from the BLM Salt Lake Helitack Crew were entrapped while conducting a backfire operation on the Scorpio Fire in the Hog Up Mountains, Box Elder County, Utah. One member of the crew felt it necessary to deploy his shelter for protection and the other sought refuge in a wash from the smoke and embers. The crewmember that deployed his shelter was treated for a second degree burn on his left elbow.

The Scorpio Fire was under the jurisdiction of the Salt Lake Field Office, Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The Salt Lake Field Office in conjunction with the Utah State Office initiated the investigation regarding the entrapment. The investigation team collected information from a site visit, data collected, and individual interviews with personnel involved with the incident.

Narrative

Salt Lake Helitack was dispatched to the Scorpio fire on the afternoon of June 30th with 4 crew members and pilot on board helicopter 1BH. The crew arrived at the advancing fire front, flying from a southern direction and continued north over the fire to the heel. The Crew estimated the fire to be over 1,000 acres at that time. Upon arrival, the fire was noted to be making a good run from the northeast to the southwest. 1BH sat down on the northeast end of the fire, dropping off two crewmembers which initiated a backfire from the road. Helicopter 1BH then proceeded with the remaining crewmembers to the heel of the fire where they tied in with engines from the Volunteer Fire Department. One crewmember, an ICT4 trainee stayed with the volunteer engines to direct and assist the activities at the heel and west flank of the fire while the ICT4 on the fire stayed with helicopter 1BH to continue the recon.

At approximately 18:00 hours additional resources from the BLM Salt Lake Field Office arrived on scene at the north end of the fire to aid in suppression activities. At this time the fire began to exhibit extreme fire behavior as a result of strong downdraft winds associated with a thunder cell tracking over the fire. Firing operations were compromised due to the changing weather conditions. Upon arrival, Engine 438 was sent along the east flank in order to aid with the backfire, but was unable to reach the two helitack crewmembers because of the extreme fire behavior and lack of visibility. The crewmembers conducting backfire operations on the east flank experienced a strong wind shift that carried the fire across the road. Firing operations were suspended and the two crewmembers tried to rendezvous in the black. Due to high wind conditions and reduced visibility, they were unable to meet. Because of the extreme fire behavior, one crewmember took shelter in a small wash within the black and endured the event with his pack turned into the wind and shroud in place. The other crewmember deployed his shelter beside the road in a narrow strip of black created from the firing operation. While in the shelter, the crewmember received a burn on his left elbow.

As the front passed, the two helicopter crewmembers located each other and were joined by Engine 438 at the shelter deployment site. At this time the type III IC arrived on scene and ordered all resources to gather at the heel of the fire.

Preliminary factual findings

The following findings were noted as contributing factors leading up to and determining the outcome of the entrapment on the Scorpio Fire. These findings will be discussed in detail within the Final Report.

• Inadequate weather information obtained and distributed during suppression activities
• Incomplete briefing
• LCES not in place
• Ineffective use of resources
• Overhead engaging in suppression activities neglected primary oversight duties
• Fire experienced extreme wind event from passing thunder cell
• Effective use of shelter training and PPE during deployment

Investigation Team

Randy Peterson
Paul Briggs
Tracy Dunford

Interesting.............. Check out the contributing factors. Will we
ever learn?

TC

EL

EL, For safety sake crew members must be able to communicate with overhead. It's up to a company to head up its Spanish speaking crews - if they have any - with someone who can communicate with them. So yes, the supervisor must speak the language of their crew as well as English. Only makes sense. LCES. Ab.

Heliteam of six (1 Portuguese and 5 Chileans) are surrounded and caught by the
flames in fire in Portugal. Anyone know more on this?

Five firefighters die in a helitanker crash in the Canary Islands (Sikorsky S-61N
from Helicsa Helicópteros now owned by Helisureste; article has it wrong)
in Spanish www.elpais.es 
English machine translation: HERE

SinNombre

PS, This firefighting plane (Beriev 200 amphibious turbojet airtanker) on loan
from Russia almost crashed and is grounded...
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Portugal_receives_Russian_aerial_firefighting_airplane

It started some spot fires when it dumped fuel. A CL-215 put out the spots.
from article: "Plane to battle fires causes fire" by João Miguel Tavares

promo video of the plane www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1_X_l_smw

Other info from Europe: Listing of Airtankers in Europe (lots of them!)

Condolences to families and friends. Ab.

I also would like to voice my opinion:

There were three different companies as well as crews from Oregon on this R5 fire. A lot of equipment was sitting around according to the wildcad. We need as Federal Wildland Firefighters to voice our opinions to our congressmen and as well as the public to tell our congressmen and congresswomen what is going on in region 5 if this is our future.

Yet another R - 5er

Not only were USFS R5 engines passed-up but so were California Region 5, Plumas County located contract engines and tenders (on the Boulder Complex). North Ops and the Plumas have no desire to help, promote or hire in-state or local business. The Plumas has been very lax in hiring locally and they have very little interest in helping the local economy.

No Sense

Imbedded in the flashes are the following stats:
over 1,000 calls
44 vegetation fires
17 structure fires
42 hazardous conditions
68 medical aid calls
204 additional emergency calls
No fatalities

Very effective. CDF is also effective at letting the public know what they do. The
Forest Service is not so good... FS was getting better in R5, but nothing lately.
What happened? How do you get funding when no one knows what you do?

Thunderstorm watchout

RS

Nice ones. Ab.

Many new So Cal starts reported on the Hot List Forum, including the one you were listening to. Be safe all. Ab.

Northern California Seasonal Fire Weather/Fire Potential Outlook July – October 2006 (pdf file)

San Bernardino has two complexes started by lightning and complicated by thunderstorm activity:

1. The Millard Complex near Cabazon. Three fires in the San Gorgonio Wilderness, erratic fire behavior with spotting. Walker's team is ordered.
2. The Sawtooth Complex near the Pioneertown Community. Yucca Valley and Morongo Valley Community are threatened.

Also, the Pushwalla Complex is burning in Joshua Tree National Park. Good progress on that one today but still a ways from containment.

Thunderstorm watchout

"Start asking questions earlier on, about where we're going with the fire." Marshall Brown, Entiat IHC supt. www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr4/marshall_brown_stand2.mp3

vfd cap'n

ps, Thanks to the fire performer, formerly known as BLM Bob.

Readers/trainers, also check Lessons from the 30 Mile Fire - training materials For future reference if you're trying to find these fast -- and other training materials relating to 30mile or other fires, go to our Archives page under Documents worth Reading. Ab.

Thanks Bill. We lost some great young people that day. Photos.

If you have a chance, just take a moment of SILENCE for those who died, and STAY SAFE OUT THERE.

NorCal Firegirl

Storm King photos (first 6) and description. Ab.

Bob, best wishes in your new endeavors. Keep reading here and if something stimulates you to put fingers to keyboard, please write in. Thanks for your many contributions to fire through the years. Ab.

“Although firefighting companies have existed for decades, the industry has expanded rapidly in recent years. This has been in response to a series of large fires, to reductions in public-agency firefighting resources, and to reduced job opportunities in other parts of the forest industry.

The expansion has not been without growing pains. While many contractors have consistently performed well, others have had problems including poor crew supervision, language barriers, unqualified personnel, equipment deficiencies, alcohol and drug use, and inadequate incident performance.”

“The number of Hispanic crews in the Northwest has increased markedly in recent years. A count of Spanish surnames on crew rosters suggests that about 85 percent of current contract firefighters are of Hispanic descent. This rough estimate doesn’t indicate how many crew members speak English.

There is no contract requirement that supervisors on contract crews speak any language other than English. There is a requirement that supervisors be able to communicate with the workers for whom they are responsible. This is essential to ensure that all personnel are made aware of safety hazards that can develop quickly in firefighting.”

“Contractors must certify that they have complied with federal immigration laws, and must fill out the I-9 forms required of all employers.

Because social security number anomalies are common among illegal immigrants, contractors this year are being asked to take extra steps to verify the numbers they are given. Land management agencies are working increasingly with federal immigration authorities, the experts in this area, to improve monitoring if(sp) immigration status.”

I don’t know how you folks read those official contract website quotes, but they sound to me like an admission of some extremely serious problems that have not yet been rectified.

I know this is a hard pill for contractors to swallow, but I believe it is just bad strategy to use contract wildland firefighters in large numbers. In a previous post I referred to a book called “Apollo, Challenger, Columbia: The Decline of the Space Program; A Study in Organizational Communication". If you are a fed firefighter, I defy you to read this book without seeing the similarities between NASA’s increasing use of contractors and subsequent decline, and the contractor related problems we now see on the firelines.

For the folks who don’t seem to understand the relationship of culture to safety, I suggest you read the book “Managing the Unexpected”. When it comes to fireline safety, an organization’s culture can spell the difference between safety and disaster. I have found that when it comes to contractors, there are as many cultures as there are companies. Some are ok, some are simply awful. Care to guess which kind fed fire supervisors tend to remember?

For many reasons, I don’t think contract firefighting has worked well overall or will ever live up to its billing as a way to save the federal government money. I believe we need to get back to building a 100% MEL fed organization so that we will continue to have a large enough pool of excellent people from which to select our future fire managers, so that our wounded culture can heal, and also because at the end of the day I am a taxpayer too.

Misery Whip

File Date: July 4, 2006

Subject: 24 Hour report
Fire # CUG9 Big Draw Fire, personal injury incident
Twin Falls District, (Jarbidge Field Office) Bureau of Land Management
Date of Incident: July 2, 2006

To: Chris Simonson, Fire Management Officer

(24 Hour Report)

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE

Name of Injured: Thane Peters (Family has been notified)

On July 2, 2006 at approximately 1900 hours, Thane Peters was participating in wild fire suppression activities on the Big Draw fire, southeast of the Mountain Home Air Force Base’s Sailor Creek training range. Mr. Peters was working with a hose at the left front of his assigned type IV engine, number 2416 when he apparently tripped and fell to the ground. His legs were run over by the left front tire of the engine breaking his right femur and fracturing his left foot. His condition was stabilized on the scene and he was transported to Magic Valley Hospital in Twin Falls via a U.S. Forest Service helicopter that was also assigned to the fire. He was treated for his injuries and has yet to be released from the hospital.

The investigation of the incident is ongoing.

/s/ George Rummele
George Rummele
Safety Officer

Article with human interest details posted below: "FF injured, not fallen"... Follow the link. Ab.

She is in her mid 80's and still goin' strong. Congrats to her.

Sign me X ENGB BIA

So she was born in about 1926. Can you find out when she started or how many years she's done it? What are the biggest changes she's seen in fire, in looking out for fire or in fighting fire... or a good story or two - best memory, worst memory? Ab.

Housing allowance for feds? Some execs say yes...
By AIMEE CURL
Federal Times
July 05, 2006

Federal leaders in Los Angeles and San Francisco plan to push a bold new idea for battling recruitment and retention problems in high-priced cities:

Instead of locality pay, give feds a military-like housing allowance. "Although there's a recognition that locality pay is broken, there has not been any wholesale effort to change it," said Kathrene Hansen, executive director of the Greater Los Angeles Federal Executive Board. "Everyone's been tweaking locality pay and market-based pay around the edges, but no one's been saying, 'Let's address the problem head on.' Obviously the military figured this out years ago. It's not a new idea, but a new application of it." Called the Variable Housing Allowance, it would replace locality pay in areas where federal workers receive more money based on a higher cost of living. The 1990 Federal Employees Pay Comparability Act created locality pay as a way to reduce pay disparity between the federal and nonfederal work forces in some cities. (Read the rest of the article via the link. Ab.)

Kathrene Hansen
Executive Director
Greater Los Angeles Federal Executive Board
Kathrene.Hansen @ dhs.gov

Searching through the SAFECOMS and saw two for...
possibly H-527? Does anyone have any info, they
sounded pretty serious... hope everyone is/was okay.

Sign me "WANDERING."

About a week or 10 days ago the AG crew was in Arizona when their helicopter made a hard or rough landing. All were OK. The incident is being followed up with investigation, inspections, etc. It may be a case of too high, too hot and too heavy, but that's speculation. We'll know when the investigation is complete. It's being handled by the aviation folks.

Our best thoughts as always with the crew. Photos of the AG helo and crew from past years: Arroyo Grande Flight Crew Ab.

Firefighter injured, not fallen

TWIN FALLS The thought that he might not survive only lasted a moment as the tire of a 32,000-pound fire engine rolled up his legs.

But when the tire stopped at his hips, Thane Peters knew he would live to fight another fire.

On Sunday, the 24-year-old arrived at the head of a fire south of Glenns Ferry with his U.S. Bureau of Land Management fire crew. (For more, follow the link...)

The first female lookouts were

1913, Hallie Morse Daggett, Eddy's Gulch Lookout, Klamath NF. Ranger W.H McCarthy listed her qualifications as "an ardent advocate of the Forest Service, not afraid of anything that walks,creeps or flies, and a perfect lady". She started work June 1, 1913 and remained on the job for 14 years.

Harriet Kelley of the Tahoe NF, and Mollie Ingoldsby of the Plumas NF became lookouts in 1918.

Campfire permits
In 1915 the Angeles National Forest was the first to require campfire permits, by 1920 all Southern California forests required the permits.

Unusual patrol vehicles

The Tahoe NF used a 26 foot gasoline powered launch stationed on the Northwest shore of Lake Tahoe. It patrolled the lake looking for fires from 1910-1918.

The Sierra NF used motorcycle patrolmen beginning in 1912. In 1913, the Sierra NF began using a Model T runabout outfitted with railroad wheels to patrol the tracks of the San Joaquin and Eastern railroad tracks.

The Angeles NF possibly had the first aerial patrol in 1913 when Ranger Parnay rode with a pilot observing a series of test fires. In 1916 the Angeles experimented with the use of hot air balloons to detect fires.

1919 saw the first organized use of aircraft for patrol in California when the US Army Air Service and the US Forest Service worked together to patrol the Angeles and Cleveland National Forests.

Source:
Fire in the Forest, A history of forest fire control on the national forests in California, 1898-1956. Robert W. Cermak

AW

Thanks, I added those to IMWTK. Ab.

Thanks!

Cy

1/13 - "One last thing; you know it's only been less than five years since the first investigation report was published on-line in 1999. We shouldn't take it for granted. It used to often be really, really hard to get your hands on reports. I've got some rare original ones like the 1976 Battlement Creek fire and the 1983 Mound House fire. The reports are so much better distributed now than back in the day. Talk about hard for the youngsters and groundpounders to get the information. We should be glad for the progress made there." www.wildlandfire.com/arc/2004a_jan.htm

Do you still have the Battlement Creek report? Would you be willing to let me borrow it or send me a quality, digital scan? I've been working off a copy of a copy, with really poor image quality. And, what the Lessons Learned Center has in the database is no better (except for some interesting underlining of key phrases.)

I have most of the text scanned or re-typed, but the image quality is really poor on the maps and photos. I would dearly love to give the wildfire community photo-quality images from the original report. Ab has my contact info.

By the statistics, over two-thirds of burnover fatalities involve firefighters under the age of 30. I can't help but think that these kids can still learn from a fire that will have a 30th anniversary in less than two weeks.

vfd cap'n

ps, I just re-read the note Ab added to that original post, asking to borrow the reports. I'm hoping I'm a better beggar.

Nice job, you make some excellent points in this forum. We all need to make sure our
elected (or wantabee elected) officials continue to hear from people yourself and from
all of us.

Below is the budget results the past few years and what we have to look forward to from
our current representatives. If your Forest, BLM District or Park was broke this year,
just wait until next year. If you ever thought about making a lot of noise, the next 4 months
is the best chance you have that someone is going to listen.

VOTE November 7th............

MS

A friend brought my attention to the posting on women's showers (below) and someone wanting the "real story" and suggested I respond, since I was there. In the early/mid seventies we went out for one of those one day shifts when the supe turns down a helicopter ride out because "we'd rather walk out" and we knew we were in for it -- what followed was consecutive, sweltering hot 24 hour shifts of cutting line, hot shoveling, and cutting line around hot spots, sleeping on the line for days.

We finally got back into fire camp and were beat. Everyone on my assembled crew started taking showers (the old open-air ones) and told me the Women's Showers were 1-2. (I was told because this was when most of the men did not want showers). I went at 1. "Sorry" said the shower manager. Too many guys want showers, the Women's Hours will be at 2. At 2 I was told it was 4. At 4 it was 5 and on and on. He was getting a real kick out of this now, since he probably had never been on the line in his life, but this really wasn't funny on any level anymore, since I clearly wasn't going to get a shower.

I was furious by now and he thought that was even funnier. I just took my stuff and walked in -- was there ever a commotion "you can't go in there!" he was yelling in panic from the door, because now he was in trouble. You could have heard a pin drop in the showers, believe me, the showers were full, and I was just grim faced, you could have fried an egg on my head, looking straight ahead and just getting my shower and getting out of there. Yes, I'm pretty sure some guys fled. But I also appreciate there were so many guys, both in the shower and who heard about it on the lightning-fast grapevine in camp, that were simply kind and respectful and just understood how much it meant to get a hot shower as a firefighter after so long on a hot assignment and were apologetic I had to make a stink and do that to make my point.

After that there were Women's Hours posted on the shower and they kept them and that guy disappeared. As years went by it seemed like women in the showers became some kind of joke or gag -- but back in those days there were a lot of guys who just didn't think I should have had to do that.

Thanks.
Sincerely,

An Old Salt (now)

Thanks "Old Salt". Good to have the first-hand story about when you were a young, dirty and (no doubt) salty grunt, just wanting a shower. I put it on the IMWTK page at the bottom. I need to incorporate other historical info that's come in over the last month on fire camp showers as well. Also anyone know when Linda Szczepanik became IC or Jeanne Pincha-Tulley? Ab.

Tony Petrilli's witness statement - 96k pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics: http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos158.htm

"Median hourly earnings of fire fighters were $18.43 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $13.65 and $24.14. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $9.71, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $29.21. Median hourly earnings were $18.78 in local government, $17.34 in the Federal Government, and $14.94 in State government."

"Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $58,920 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $46,880 and $72,600. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $36,800, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $90,860. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned about $60,800 a year."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nearly 50 years ago, this statement was found in the 1957 Report to the Chief

"Career limitations in the present fire control aid series result in the loss of well qualified fire men to woods and other industries, state and county protection agencies, and other jobs where better careers are available. This situation makes it difficult to recruit and develop additional suitable men in this category."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As the years go by, problems that aren't properly addressed will just simmer..... this problem has been simmering for far too long.

Lobotomy

Most units are handling new starts and holdover fires from recent lightning with no
problems reported. Fires are mostly Class AB. Units report IA forces are stretched.

www.nwccweb.us/content/products/intelligence/amreport.pdf (pdf file)

This past week we received our July issue of Wildland Fire Magazine. This is the
first year I didn't see a mention of South Canyon in a July issue.

In August 1994 my wife and one of our sons walked off of Hell's Gate ridge and
were picked up on I 70 by Sonny Lasalle. On our way back to Glenwood Springs
I told Sonny not to forget what happened because when we forget it will happen
all over again. I also told Mike Dombeck, Jack Ward Thomas and others I was
going to be a boil on their A$$ until the day I died so this wouldn't happen again.

I hope we haven't reached that point that we are forgetting. We still have many
firefighters out there we love and care for, So Let's Not Forget.

STAY SAFE OUT THERE.

KB

The families of those 14 have added so much to WFF. They share with and mentor the new families that come our way, giving them hope and sharing in their sorrow. They continue to help fund this Foundation. They send photos of newborn babies that come into their families' lives. They share their favorite memories, their laughter and tears. Levi Brinkley's Dad gave me this remembrance and we have it hanging on the wall with the pictures of the firefighters we lost that day:

WHAT WE LEARNED.......
The lives of the 14 firefighters on Storm King serve as a
constant reminder for all firefighters today. We learned that
human life is more precious that any home, property, or
landscape and that safety should guide firefighters' decisions.

We send our deepest sympathy to the families of Storm King.
We also send our sympathy and remembrance to the firefighters and friends whose lives were touched and changed by this tremendous loss.

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Thanks for attaching the links to show the sources of the 33% attrition rate among Forestry Technicians in Montana for 2005. It really helps to put the numbers in a much clearer perspective.

The 2 charts you've referenced show that there were in fact 1092 Forestry Technicians working for the USFS in 2005: 361 of them had less than 2 years experience, and were working in ALL aspects of forestry work like timber marking, trail maintenance as well as fire, and 315 of them quit the agency. Since Montana has a relatively short field season, and summer students are still an important component of the workforce, I'm guessing that that's where many of these resignations came from, as the students quit to go back to school in late August and early September.

Probably more telling, compared to the retention problems in Southern California, is that there were 623 Forestry Technicians in Montana with more than 4 years experience, and only 22 (6%) quit in 2005. To me, this number reflects an extremely stable workforce, maybe because they like the agency, the job and the pay; maybe because there aren't better paying competitors in the local market.

Whatever the reasons, the numbers show that the experienced Forestry Technicians in Montana (in all the forestry areas including Fire) are staying around in very high percentages.

None of the above should be interpreted as making light of the seriousness of retaining qualified folks, regardless of their duration on the job. Hiring, training and retaining the next generation of workers is an important task for all of us, regardless of the industry or geographic location.

Now, if someone came in and offered these same Forestry Techs a job in Montana that paid $100,000+ with the work schedules that the departments in SoCal have (more time for hunting, fishing, hiking), I'd lay money on the line that the % of "quits" would be significantly higher, but those kind of wages aren't out there in the "Last Best Place".

Again, thanks for providing the data that allows us to take some of the emotion out of our discussions and replace it with real numbers.

Dick Mangan

Just confirming shelter deployment on Scorpio incident west of Great Salt
Lake. don't have details on this other than to say that the person is OK.

noname

Have not been on the site for awhile (too long) and I see some of the same common threads discussed annually - but it's good to see people noticing that the costs of running separate fire programs is getting prohibitive and redundant.... and are speaking up about its pros and cons. I picked this point up in several threads, altho subtle, the grapevine has its eye on concepts now in place in the wildland fire community and I am particularly glad it is being spoken up to.

What we all ought to know is that there is a current NWCG sponsored, and legislatively mandated, on-going effort to examine and rectify the BUSINESS FOCUS and functional business areas of wildland fire management. The National Wildland Fire Enterprise Architecture project, or NWFEA for short is the initiative that is building the future forest fire fighting business transformation strategy, the blueprint for implementation, and the methodologies that will change the way agencies, states and cooperators manage wildland fire as a single line of business / An enterprise with a focus on eliminating redundant and inefficient fire business practices, streamlining costs and dysfunctional systems so the wildland fire community can function as if it were a single business (like a corporation in the private sector) - and looking at all of the needed, and non-needed sub-focus areas of the wildland fire enterprise.

The issues are on the table NOW, the tools are in development NOW, and the transition plans are being forged. It will happen and more likely sooner - than later.

This is not stovepiping the organization, nor is it a mix of fire fighting doctrines, or the start of a single wildland firefighting entity / it is the launch of a sensible and practical exercise that plans to run the business (enterprise) of wildland firefighting in a more cohesive, standardized and cost effective manner. The NWFEA goal is to make every dollar spent in the national fire community go further, identify and eliminate stupid and dumb redundancies, and stream-line asinine and dysfunctional interagency fire business functions. It's not a pipe dream - its happening, and the table is getting set NOW for out year budgeting. Perhaps not the next cycle - but probably a lot sooner that 2020, as some visionaries view things.

What ICS was in its beginnings and what is has evolved into now as a world wide model, is about to happen with the interagency evolution of getting rid of old one agency - one business line of practices. Think of running the wildland fire enterprise like a Fortune 500 company. Would not this be a doable - if not noble goal. Well, times are changing. National Leadership is not asleep at the wheel. It is coming.

And honestly, its time for sacrosanct, untouchable single fire entities to really examine how they are going to fit. What may appeal now as the cream of the iceberg may tip under its own growing weight. Honestly - doesn't it make sense that some of the remaining "codger corporate memory" does see and understand s the writing on the wall - that we are all operating in a bigger sandbox then we think we can manage alone. And doesn't it make sense to eliminate bad business? It makes a whole lot of sense to me that there truly remain some visionaries that have taken their heads out of the sand.

Just glad to hear the first tremors of the conversation rippling thru the 'theysaid dialogues.
Remember none of us is as smart as all of us - and none of us can afford to do "it" without each other anymore.

I think by 2010 the business drivers of fire management programs (FUNDING) will be more unified and focused. Waste and redundancies (especially some of the 'rave' overcost operations' exclusively will see even tougher times ahead) if they don't weigh into the concept. Just wanted to take some time to check in. Fire Leadership has its fingers wrapped around some good things. Changes are coming and the edge of the rut is not the horizon. Every entity evolves. Fire business is no exception.

- "Forks in the Trail"

AS

Is back up and running again (I think) seems to have been a server problem
of some type.

TC

Firefighting is an interagency effort across many regions with varying topography, having varying interface constraints, varying policies and politics. Besides fed, state, local, municipal firefighters, resources include contract firefighters, vollies, and AD firefighters, airtanker pilots, helicopter resources, etc. On fires I've been on, all groups have a role to play; all groups cost different amounts. Training and performance, safety, and maintenance of a core group of fire professionals that will grow up to become the IMTs of the future must be taken into account. A good business would factor in true costs at every step, would hire and train the best, would oversee and fire those that don't measure up for whatever reason. There would also be a projected budget that could be counted on, so that long range goals could be achieved.

Of necessity, it sounds more and more like the hardcore business approach will be coming. The Forest Service is not the FS of 100 years ago. If the WO FS is going to hijack big fire money for stove-piping finance, IT, and maintenance shops, it should be especially careful not to compromise resources or safety.

One other thing: In the new scheme of things, the Forest Service (plus the President and Congress) will have to decide if the Incident Management Teams will continue. I think the Fire Teams are an incredible resource for this nation. Deciding to streamline fire, to downsize resources because money was raked off for other FS functions, to cut fire resources and eventually training -- all this is likely to have an additional effect of eliminating national fire teams down the road... You can't just snap your fingers and they appear out of nowhere. Fire managers must be grown as professionals; our fire leaders have been trying to foster such growth from the ground up since the National Fire Plan came out.

A viable professional fire program takes years to build. In contrast, it can take as little as one or two seasons to make everything disappear. (Kind of like pumping too much water out of an aquifer (underground river) in the SW, until it collapses.)

On the face of it, Misery Whip, I liked your post.
Similarly, Debbie Miley I liked your post.
I can see each of your perspectives. I don't think either one is the whole story, but then, you never said they were.

I need to read more deeply and catch up after being away...
Just wanted to check in.

Love you all!

Mellie

I didn't make it to the Q party - was on a fire. Was he roasted and toasted
to perfection?

Strider

Deborah Miley
Independent Consultant to NWSA

Well said, Debbie. Thanks for the professional private sector perspective. Thank you all for NWSA. Ab.

I have never seen so many fires started from lightning in the last 10
years living here in Okanogan. We have had over 57 starts in 24 hours off
the reservation and around 12 starts last night on the Colville
Reservation. We are still getting new starts off the lightning storm this
morning. Lots of these fires have nobody on them yet. The big one I think
named Spur Fire(#213) is about 25 miles from me and a few miles outside
of Winthrop, WA. We were having gusts of up to 29 MPH last night which
was not helping. Little rain in some areas dry temps in the 90s also.

This could turn into a big mess today and resources were pretty much used
up yesterday. Contract Crews, Engines and Tenders going out and I probably
will be called myself since we don't have enough local USFS and DNR
people to stop them.

Region 6 Tender

Be safe. Ab.

Ab note: This 14 minute video is specifically directed toward law enforcement but as Hickman says, it's important for all working along roadways. I've taken the liberty to substitute "wildland firefighter" for "officer" in the following video description. There are some excellent points all should consider:

Your Vest Won’t Stop This Bullet (Move Over Video) tells drivers to pay attention and wildland firefighters to take five precautions when needing to stop along a highway. The first deals with stop location; wildland firefighters should try to avoid stopping at blind curbs, hillcrests, hidden areas or areas with narrow or non-existent shoulders. Secondly wildland firefighters should be aware of surrounding traffic; more often wildland firefighters with more experience and familiarity with the area end up making judgment errors because they are too comfortable in the situation. In addition, wildland firefighters should always find an escape route for the incident. After the incident they should enter traffic safely and, lastly, wildland firefighters should pack (the trunk of) their vehicles in order to avoid explosions caused by fuel tank piercing.

To view the video, go to www.dps.mo.gov/home/dpshome.htm. In the upper left corner click on the "Move over video". (Note that the Netscape browser does not show the Missouri home page in its entirety.) Ab.

nhallisey

Looks like the Mendocino isn't posting anymore. I looked on the main
Wildweb page and they aren't there anymore.

KM

This is the last link we had: http://63.196.254.151/WildWeb/WCMNF.htm No action since June... Ab.

Helicopter crashes near Grande Prairie
www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2006/07/04/chopper-crash.html

SmokeDawg

The National Multi-Agency Coordination Group (MAC) establishes Preparedness
Levels throughout the calendar year to help assure that firefighting resources
are ready to respond to new incidents. Preparedness Levels are dictated by
burning conditions, fire activity, and especially resource availability.

The five Preparedness Levels range from I to V, with V being the highest level.
Each Preparedness Level has specific management directions. As the Preparedness
Levels rise, more federal and state employees become available for fire
mobilization if needed.

Preparedness Level I – No large fire activity is occurring. Most geographic
areas are experiencing low to moderate fire danger. There is little or no
commitment of national resources.

Preparedness Level II – One region of the country is experiencing high fire
danger. Wildland fire activity is occurring, and there is a potential for
escapes to larger fires.

Preparedness Level III – Two or more regions of the country are experiencing
wildland or prescribed fire activities requiring a major commitment of national
resources. Additional resources are being ordered through the National
Interagency Coordination Center. Incident Management Teams are committed in two
or more regions, or 275 crews are committed nationally.

Preparedness Level IV – Two or more regions of the country are experiencing
incidents requiring Type I Teams. Competition exists for resources between
Geographic Areas. Or when 425 crews or five Type I Teams area committed
nationally. Some firefighting resources may be pre-positioned to respond to
predicted incidents and liaisons are established with the military and Canadian
resources.

Preparedness Level V – Several Geographic Areas are experiencing major incidents
which have the potential to exhaust all agency fire resources. When 550 crews
are committed nationally. Canadian Liaison and a coordinator for military
mobilization are asked to participate in national planning.

NOPS

Haven't heard of any shelter deployment in Utah, but there was a fire shelter deployed by a CDF engine crew on the Balls Canyon Fire near Reno, NV early last week. Not a rumor- fact.

No injuries, sounds like it was precautionary- heard on a conference call that the engine became stuck/disabled, the crew entered the cab, one person popped a shelter as a precaution, and aircraft protected the engine from impingement, with no damage to the engine either. Sounds like the crew and overhead handled the situation correctly when it counted.

I also have not seen anything in writing through official channels, but it was mentioned on the same conference call that the investigation would be conducted under a format known as "peer review". I'm a Fed (Non- FS), and have never heard of this process.

I also agree that something official needs to be published, and soon, for learning purposes. I hope "peer review" isn't a veiled term for "we'll take a look at ourselves and write a report about ourselves", but I think it has more to do with the interagency review process (CDF in Nevada on a FS fire- you can imagine the politics, legal issues, etc.).

Regardless of the circumstances, injuries, equipment damage, or process, something led up to this, and I feel that the Agencies aren't doing their firefighters any favors by not telling us how to avoid a similar situation.

My two cents.
Sign me- Tired already in GB.

Sign me Contractor ENGB

SUMMARY OF FIRE ACTIVITY ACROSS THE UNITED STATES

RESOURCES COMMITTED

KD

Thanks Casey for all your hard work. Question though, what effect will this have on the 401 "General Biologist" implementation.

Long time member FWFSA

I started on a Green Hornet 2X4 and then we were issued
a Mormon Harrington cabover 4X4. They both had a Wisconson
air cooled pump engine on a 4 stage centrifugal pump.
This photo was taken at the old FS station on San Marcos
Pass, on the LP on June 22, 1953.

Good ole days,
Doug Campbell

Reduced size pic of Doug and "tanker" when he was a kid. AW, feel free to email him at his website. Link on the Classifieds page. Ab.

You are on target with your thoughts of cooperation to reduce redundancies.
Take a look at the Minnesota Interagency Fire Center as an example. State
of MN along with FS, F&WS, NPS, BIA, DEM (Dept. Emergency Mgt) have
co-located their "cache" and work together on all risk incidents. Too much
to go into detail here, but they found that costs went down, and responses
are more efficient.

Old Fire Guy

Bert, you should also email someone at the AirTanker Pilots Board and ask if you can be included in their forum. Ab.

I do agree, in time as communities do the right things to protect themselves, we will be able to let back country fires burn more freely. But I think it will take alot longer than 2020 for that to happen. I think Smokejumpers' jobs will be safe beyond then. As you may or may not know, smokejumpers are not limited to back country fires. That has been the traditional role and the bread and butter of the program for years. But the the jumper program has been evolving beyond those traditional roles the last several years. Here's a few ways:

1. The key to aggressive IA in any venue is getting firefighters to the scene quickly. The jumpers' high speed aircraft plays right into that concept. Depending on the type and number of aircraft, an emerging fire could get 8 to 40 or more smokejumpers converging from different bases in a fairly short period of time. It's an idea that all fire going personnel need to realize. Jumpers can be used in almost any fire situation in which many firefighters are needed quickly whether it's near roads or not. The aircraft is the transportation, one of the same reason we use helicopters, but the fixed wings are faster.

2. The jumpers are cultivating ICT3s, a role which many people do NOT want to fill due to all the possible legal ramifications. Jumpers can, will be and are dispatched to fires to set up the framework for an Type 3 organization. They are willing to step up leadershipwise to fill that role.

3. Jumpers are aggressively getting involved in Wild Fire Use. Fast deployment to these fires can help managers get initial information to help them make timely decisions on how to proceed. And because of the payloads of their aircraft, they can be given enough supplies to be self sufficient for a long time.

These are just a few ways the jumpers are evolving. As you can tell, I am a smokejumper (for the last 28 years) and this probably sounds like a sales pitch but I do think it's important for everyone out there to understand the capabilities of ALL their tools they have available to them. I wish I had a dime for every time someone said to me, " I didn't know you guys could do that".

Just remember, the plane and parachute are just the way we get to the fire. Everyone has to get there somehow. Engine, crew buggy, helicopter, etc. Once we are all there, we are all firefighters working together.

SMKJ79

But rather than getting into a subjective verbal/email "pi**ing contest about "my Dodge is better than your Ford, which is better than her Chevy", it seems that a solid economic analysis would be a good starting point: how much appropriated USFS $$ goes to each of the 4 southern forests for their fire program (total $$, not just those that reach the groundpounders); how many acres are being protected; number of fires, acres, etc.

Then, some input on what neighboring agencies (CDF, LA County, Orange County, etc) would charge the Feds for comparable levels of protection.

My old green underwear starts itching furiously when I think about breaking the nearly 100 years of tradition by getting away from a USFS fire presence, but I'm also reminded of the old saying that "if we keep on doing what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten". As a taxpayer, I believe it's time for the question to be asked, and looked at with complete objectivity.

There was an earlier reference that alluded that if SoCal wasn't under USFS fire, the same would occur in Albuquerque, Flagstaff and Missoula: seems unlikely, since there are not other large agencies that have large programs, people/equipment and pay mega-bucks to steal away USFS fire folks in any of those areas. A fire job with the USFS in my area is still a highly desired position that pays way better than the "competition".

The rest of the USFS is already looking hard, and implementing, contracts for lots of their land management activities; fire management, with it's big bucks and high visibility, cannot avoid the spotlight forever.

Aberdeen

Geez folks:

It's the 4th of July and we're back at it with the greens vs blues vs reds etc.

To those in the CDF & Municipal departments...you and your unions have the luxury of negotiating lucrative contracts with management. Feds don't. We have to change the federal law...and that literally takes an act of Congress.

I can't blame any federal firefighter who "jumps ship" for better pay & benefits. I've had the honor of being on the California Professional Firefighters (CPF) Executive Board and as the representative of federal firefighters in California, was always somewhat frustrated that we did not enjoy the same negotiating parameters the state & municipal firefighters enjoy.

However I have found my spot...working for federal wildland firefighters as the most rewarding, frustrating, honorable job I have ever held. Our federal wildland firefighters have been abused and treated like 2nd class citizens by the Agencies of the Federal Government for far too long. If you, as federal wildland firefighters want or need to make the jump, go ahead. But I am damned determined with the rest of the FWFSA to make the federal wildland fire service THE place to work and make a career.

Many of our accomplishments & successes will come too late for those who have steadfastly remained in green throughout their careers and will leave the service soon. But when I see buggy after buggy of hotshots and hear from our members across the country I know that they are worth fighting for.

As far as flatlanders vs wildland folks...I spent 24 years as a structural firefighter, finishing up as an Asst. Chief. On several occasions I had the "furtune??!" of taking an engineto a wildfire up I-80 or up along 50. That &$%# IS work. I'd much rather be in the middle of a fully charged warehouse of deathly chemicals than do what our federal wildland firefighters do day in and day out.

No one firefighter is better than the other. But my hat tips to the wildland folks not only for what they go through on the fire line but what they have to endure from their employers...

Now...play nicely and have a safe and happy fourth...whether you're racing down Santa Monica Freeway in a red truck or winding your way up to Lake Arrowhead in a green buggy...

CAsey

Seems like maybe you haven't been keeping up with the times. Yellow Angel said it well, stating that your brush was awful broad. I work in a joint CDF / USFS facility and share many of the same experiences and stories with my green brothers. Team Green has some outstanding individuals, and some that aren't, just like mine and every other organization in the world. The "tastes great, less filling" argument went out long ago. This forum should be used for intelligent discussion on "actual" issues and get rid of the 3rd grade my Dad can beat up your Dad bs.

Fireout

I think intothewind was hinting at an important issue that must ultimately be addressed in California. That issue is redundancy. We have Fed, State and County fire depts with resource redundancies and each with their own bureaucracies and additional responsibilities. If I recall correctly, the combined budgets for Fed, State and county fire is around 2 billion dollars, and that may be only for SoCal. It just seems that from a business perspective we should be able to streamline these redundant fire organizations somehow, especially in SoCal. Of course you've got to also think about power and control... and politics...

Just thinking out loud...

Mellie

We contract counties, unlike the green machine, have multiple risk missions 24-7, and therefore multiple personalities in our people. Sure, our flat landers are occasionally pulled up the hill to fight a big one. And occasionally some of what you say is true when applied to folks who don't like wildland fire.... much can be said the same of federal managers who don't like fire particularly either. But it doesn't apply to all of us! There are a lot of folks in all of the contract counties that love wildland fire and do an outstanding job, some are among the best wildland fire fighters I know. And, FYI, I have spent my time in my whites on the ground myself, and I know for a fact your characterizations don't fit. So time to quit poisoning the well, we all need each other. With the fed cutbacks in particular, they can't pull off the IA in my backyard forests like they used to, and I know we depend on our Forest Service partners to pull off the mission as well. Let's face it, were in this together....and were a lot more alike than we ever were different. Please pick your fights elsewhere.

Contract County Guy

Your remarks about urban interface make me think about all of the housing developments going up in the forests all over the western mountains. In our area we have a couple areas where it is unspoken to NEVER go into those developed areas in a fire.

In a recent trip to the Kalispell area there were some places I could not put myself or any firefighter that I know in there because it is not defendable. There was only one home that I saw that was defendable; no surprise, it belongs to a volunteer firefighter. From what I was told he has tried to make his neighbors see the advantage of keeping the fuels down around their homes, but you can tell that they are not listening.

No surprise here, but there are small fires starting around MT. Wait a couple days and be ready. It is hot and dry and all that early rain brought out the fine fuels. Be ready.

Cris

Anyone heard anything about a shelter deployment on one of the fires in Utah. I may have just awakened from my retirement nap, but thought that even though the facts are not out....the WORD should be as a safety precaution. The light fuels in the Great Basin are extremely thick this year, and this should be at least recognized, but from what I hear, the crews on the fire were told to keep their traps shut. Bunch of baloney from my standpoint as a Monday a.m. quarterback -- sounds like management trying to cover their you know whats. Seriously, though, does anyone know -- has the policy changed on reporting such incidents, or are we taking a secret approach to safety now days?

Cache Queen

Your comments on So Cal Urban Interface are interesting. I spent many many years in So Cal before I retired last year. If you honestly think that CDF or Counties can handle the Urban Interface problem better, I want some of what you're smoking.

I will take some heat for what I have to say but here goes:

Most all Counties including the biggest Co. Fire department crews rarely get off the rig and fight fire unless two things happen

1. its flat ground and they can drag their reel or jump line to it,
2. a rarer chief tells them to get off and go to work, the crews are inmates and have worked hard to earn the title orange sleeping bags.

CDF is much the same and their folks today are too busy trying to be like the Municipal fire departments. If you think they will staff stations at places like Apache Saddle, Fig, Chilao, Monte Cristo, BDF Big Pine, San Juan or Oak Grove then you're dead wrong. That first does not even consider cost for the contract because they aint cheep, and they are damned expensive when the fire escapes. Besides the FS has been doing a good job fighting interface fires in So Cal for over 50 years. When the chips are really down, the green engines can be counted on for being there out in the pucker brush fightin fire while the red ones are grandstanding for the media, staged or just pulling out.

Believe Lobotomy said it right: with knowledge training and experience the feds can do quite well especially if the budget wizards pay attention to the overall big picture and spend some now and save alot more in the future.

FS is in a down staffing cycle which happens ever 20-25 years due to big buildups and then retirements. There is alot of young talent out there. They just need some time. The present training Quals and certs process has that all screwed up because the talented ones are held back because of the mediocre ones.

Old timer

Contractors may not be the answer but they certainly are a "piece of the puzzle". Many contractors are excellent fire fighters, who live in "fire country" and have a keen interest in suppressing fires that are affecting their families and communities. Many of those same contractors work in the timber industry during the rest of the year and to see their lively-hood go up in smoke is counterproductive to providing a living for they and their families.

Oregon has used contractors for over 20 years as an integral part of their over-all fire fighting forces and it has been quite effective.

The contracts (PNW Interagency Crew and Engine/Water Tender) have come a long way since 1990 and so have many of the crews. Yes, there are still crews who aren't the best but there are also many crews who are very good and take a great deal of pride in what they do as a part of the fire fighting community.

Sign me,

Contractors have their place too

Hear hear. Ab.

For those that have access to FS network, photos and updated maps are
posted daily at:

ftp://r5fs09n.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/fmp/WFU/2006%20Fire%20Use/MNF/YollaBolly_Complex/

TC

Noname

Thank you
Sonja J

I am also going to post this on familysaid.
First of all, you need to know his crew's name. It would also be good to find out what fire his crew was sent to. First time he calls in, ask him. Then you can look for specific fire information in a number of places. Readers, any other pointers? Ab.

You are correct however, in your pointing out the very real fact that people in the fire service... no matter the color of their uniform... still have to provide and care for their family. The United States Forest Service does not recognize this fact, as evidenced by their refusal to adequately compensate their fire going personnel at the lower ranks.

While it may seem a bitter pill to swallow, those folks who transition from the Federal Firefighting Force into State and other local governmental agencies will receive a good wage, far better working conditions and at last... a fair and unbiased chance to promote on their individual merits and qualifications. Gook luck to all of them... and for those of you who choose to remain with a Federal Agency that is lying to its employees and turning its' back on its Emergency Responders... well... you're sadly going to need more than luck. Continue to fight the good fight...and take care of one another.

COPTER100

WS

Firefox

PT

Its not bad when you have one person leave for better pay and benefits
two weeks ago. Now I was just informed I'll be having two more from
my module leaving for CDF. What's really bad is these folks would love
to have given us a 2 week notice. But they're being forced to show up on
two day notice.  Being told, "show up or will find somebody else."

signed
There were 8, now there are 5.

The law enforcement branch was chimney piped after a relatively small incident at the district level. It somehow came to light that several violations were overlooked in a local timber sale, when the LEO on the district started investigating why they had not been reported by the Timber Inspector for that sale, he discovered that the FS employee was also working part time for the contractor hired to do the sale. The LEO reported this information to his direct supervisor, the District Ranger, who decided that the problem would be taken care of in house for fear of looking bad. Eventually, the forest supervisor found out about it, pretty soon the public found out about it, and eventually it made its way up the WO and before you know it it’s an issue before Congress. The issue was that here we had law enforcement officers, classified as such, who received specific training, carried weapons, were specialized professionals, being supervised by people who were A: not qualified in the law and B: not in a position to supervise objectively, regarding the law. Law enforcement was an aspect of the forest service that needed to be run independently of politics, PR, and fear of personal reliability over doing what was right. Congress saw that, but it took an incident that made the government look bad for any one to realize it or do anything about it.

Fire Management isn’t just about making sure places don’t, or do, burn. Peoples' lives are at stake, firefighters, home owners, any one who uses public lands. I hope it doesn’t take an incident that makes the FS look bad, that cost people their lives, for them to realize that firefighters should be supervised by actual firefighters. Fire Management needs to implemented by people who know what they're doing, and ultimately know that they are doing the right thing to ensure both proper forest fire management and safety. Whether or not the FS realizes it, or if they do and just don’t care, either way, it doesn’t matter, but the tax paying public expects them to take care of their lives and property when fires start. I hate to wish for bad things to happen, but I really hope the FS gets caught with their pants down this season, so that the public and Congress can see what’s really going on, and that it’s not all about money.

Sign me-

A lurker, just adding my two cents