Discussion: A review of recently reported SAFECOMs indicates that a trend is becoming evident;
pre-flight inspections are not being thoroughly completed, and checklists are not being utilized. This of
course is not true in every case, but it is occurring with enough regularity that it warrants attention.
Several of the following incidents could have been prevented with proper pre-flight inspections and by
using checklists. Fatigue, complacency or a false sense of urgency to accomplish a mission can all be
contributing factors in incomplete pre-flight inspections or failure to use a checklist.
A few recent incidents include: pilots taking off without checking fuel, starting helicopters with rotors
tied down, loose fuel caps, unlatched windows, and doors not properly shut. Many of these incidents
could have had severe consequences. The following excerpts are from a few of the SAFECOMS:

Click here to read the rest of the pdf file of the alert. Ab.

New GAO Report:

Wildland Fire Rehabilitation and Restoration: Forest Service and BLM Could Benefit from
Improved Information on Status of Needed Work GAO-06-670, June 30, 2006
Abstract Highlights-PDF   PDF

Govt Watcher

SUMMARY: The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) is issuing proposed regulations to amend the criteria under which OPM may grant dual compensation (salary off-set) waivers on a case-by-case basis, or delegate waiver authority to agencies. This amendment clarifies that OPM may grant or delegate to agencies the authority to grant such waivers in situations resulting from emergencies posing an immediate and direct threat to life or property or situations resulting from unusual circumstances that do not involve an emergency.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Janice Warren, 202-606-2367 or e-mail: janice.warren@opm.gov
[PDF[75 KB] or TEXT]

Here is my list:
To Joe Hill, I am sorry that I even spoke up and by not having "Your" strong intellectual mind.
Original AB, I am sorry that I do not have your writing ability.
"Signed", I am sorry for not being quiet and offending you.
FireFighters Back FireFighters, I am sorry for making you upset.
YM, I am sorry that you hate landowners so much that you had to criticize them on this site. I am sorry for making you do that.
I thought we could all step back and try to take a look outside the box from a different angle, but I was wrong and I have the courage to admit it.
We all risk our lives no matter if we are paid or not.

Cris

Firefighters are getting tired, worn down and sometimes need to hydrate more than they have been doing. SoCal had problems with firefighters dealing with 100+ temps. Hot days and cold nights in NorCal make people susceptible to colds. It has been cold at night in norcal and hot during the day.

Here are a couple of useful sites relating to these issues. Heads up.

§ Heat Stress: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/fitness/heat_stress//hs_pg1.html
§ Fatigue Intro: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/fatigue.htm
§ Signs of Fatigue: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/signs.htm

Todd

Nice page explaining levels of engagement. HAW HAW on the Nerd comment. Not true, but funny. Ab.

Thanks 2cents for prescribed fire definitions. That's what I thought about "let it burn" (bad word, bad, bad).
I have a friend who thinks we should let most fires burn. Nice guy but he doesn't really know much about fire. (I didn't either before my summerjob last year. Still don't know much, but know how to sharpen a pulaski.) Anyways, I've been trying to educate him and I'm trying to talk him into fighting fire next summer...

What about wildfire (not prescribed fire) that is described as being "monitored" and having no active ground pounding or air show going on? Other day I heard some residents in Redding (near the norcali fires) saying "they're just letting it burn". I told them it wasn't a matter of "letting", it was the reality that there were no resources to do anything more than watch the fire and make plans for if they got those hotshot crews or that airtanker they needed. People assume we have enough fire resources to protect anything. If only they knew...

Jody

Let me try to explain this, as I am from a forest that
is very WFU Wildland Fire Use oriented. The term "let
burn" or "let it burn" was used by firefighters back
when PNF Prescribed Natural Fires were the rage. It's
a term that stuck, but was and is very out of place in
today's WFU fires. These type of fires are managed for
resource benefits, and not left to "let burn". Trigger
points are set by management teams, where if certain
events occur or the fire gets to a certain ridge then
pre-identified actions will occur, IE lines put in to
redirect, backfires lit to prevent it from escaping
predefined boundaries. And yes, fire will always be
monitored. Sometimes the monitoring is an overflight
every 3 days, or a crew hikes in to check it every
couple days. It depends on the incident. Our forest
has had WFU fire that are a 1/10 acre and we have had
multiple 5000+ acre complexes going at the same time.
The terms "Let Burn" or "Let it Burn" should be
removed from the firefighters vocabulary. Fires are
"Managed".

Someone else can explain the engage/disengage.

Hope this helps.
Sign me, My 2cents

You asked,

What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?

That is usually about the time we are at preparedness level 5. You can work it from there I bet.

lol

KD

I'm fairly new to fire and trying to understand nuances of some terms. It's interesting to me how they're used by firefighters, if they are, and how the public might "take them".

What are the differences between "let burn" and "monitor". Monitoring just means watching the fire, right?

• It's associated with prescribed fire "for resource use".
• It might also be watching the fire because that's all you can do.

When do you quit monitoring? Is monitoring a strategy or a tactic?

Do we ever just "let it burn"?

What about "disengage". It might sound bad to the public that is in a panic, like we're not trying, but on the ground we do need to disengage or back off from a fire sometimes. The fire orders are rules of engagement and disengagement, like the right tactics to apply if the fire changes.

Jody,
(I think I'm related to Nerd on the Fireline)

Be safe. Stay alert to the weather.

NorCal Tom

Here is the link for MSNBC, to nominate Vicki Minor and the WFFF for their GREAT
Support to the Wildland Fire Service Community. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10397946/

Retired BC

The local FS ranger stations are a little more aware of the issues, politics and personalities. In North Dakota, many of the issues are being worked through because of us offering training in the winter for some of the local fire departments. I still see volunteer fire departments and locals doing things on the fireline that scare me and make me worry about their safety. I know some of you might say that we should throw the safety hazard people off of the fireline, but how do you throw a rancher off of his own property? You need a local sheriff for that. I had a rancher inform me that he had been fighting fire in this country for thirty years. I did not tell him that in my 11 years as a fire fighter, I had probably seen 5 times as much fire. What the rancher sees is a younger government guy in a Fed rig coming to intrude further in his life. Sometimes the best you can do is assume the worst, keep your situation awareness up and have about seven escape routes.

When you get into larger fires that require an Incident Management Team, politics take on a whole different level. While being a FOBS on the Roberts Complex in Glacier National Park, I watched a team make some big political blunders while dealing with the locals. The IMT was from California and was used to doing things like they would in California. The team did well with dealing with the tactics and strategy of dealing with the fire, but at their level, They have to be aware of the political landscape and have tactics and strategy to deal with that. Much cussing ensued, and many of the local and state resources pulled out of dealing with the IMT. Most of what I saw was silliness from both sides. Regardless, politics are an issue on the fire and have to be dealt with. By the sounds of both Mollysboy and Misery Whips post, they deal with the politics regularly and probably have a better opinion than mine.

As for rebuilding fence, I did a bunch of that on the Clear Creak Fire in Idaho a few years back. Funny thing is, I was rebuilding it after a hotshot crew did it. They made a lot of rookie mistakes! :>) I think most hotshots like to build fireline rather than fenceline!

Also, on the Clear Creak Fire, I got to work with a bunch of Marines that were sent out from North Carolina to help fight fires in 2000. Being former Active duty Navy and a Navy reservist, the "Squid" and "Jarhead" Jokes were flying! I had a great time working with them.

Sign Me

Domaque (PO1)

Thanks for the informative perspective, Domaque. Ab.

MSNBC.com, click Nightly News in the top center, then in the left column, click Making a Difference.

What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?

Lancer 212

Great idea Sylvia; I'll do it. Vicki deserves it. The Foundation she envisioned and made real demonstrates its value daily.

I know that with the fire raging around Orleans this last week, I've thought often of our three firefighters who died on the Stanza. Having the IC pull his firefighters off the Orleans complex of fires as they exceeded safe capabilities to fight them-- well -- it made me think that Heather, John & Steve were up there watching out and guiding the process. This Ab will not forget them. They live on in many hearts and minds.

Norm Silver, BC Retired CDF

Best wishes. Ab.

It's been fun while it lasted, but it's time to put this Burns thread to bed.

Ab.

So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the fences
lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed
their stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?

I can barely afford my 1/4 acre and my 900 square foot house working hard
at a govt job. I am not inclined to donate anything to millionaire
"ranchers" because their grass (that will grow back) and their fences were
burned by grass fires that are part of the land they work. If they work on
the range, and aren't prepared for range fires, they deserve whatever
situation they're in.

Yes, I have been out on a lot of ranch fires, and dealt with a ton of
hostile ranchers, many of whom roll around their giant properties, back to
their 300 or 400,000 houses in brand new 1 ton trucks that cost about half
what I paid for my house.

I will work my a$$ off fighting fire because it's something I love to do,
not because of any sympathy I have for the foolish people who live in the
interface and flip out when the government rescue provided to them at no
cost does not meet their standards. The ranchers' attitude seems to be that
they're owed something by the government they hate, and work to minimize.
Perhaps the ranchers who are in such a "hardship" could sell the 40,000
truck and the giant houses and the million dollar land in order to make
ends meet? If they had a federal engine and crew staged near their land
for IA, they'd bitch about that too, it's the rancher's paradox, they bleed
the federal government for cheap grazing and agricultural subsidies and
complain about fire protection but will vote for low-tax small government
representatives every time.

You seem to rely on people's ignorance of how ranchers live, like the "old
western" struggling-rancher cow-camp BS...I haven't seen a struggling
rancher in 20 years-every one I see is in a shiny new truck heading back
to a million dollar property... no sympathy here.

Think about this: how many times have you had to negotiate with or pay a
hostile landowner for "land use" or "water use" to fight a fire on or
threatening their land.... I have seen this a great many times.

and hotshots should not be building rancher's fences for them at
PL5... sheesh.

-YM

You wrote in your report about a couple killed in a fire on their own land but couldn't remember the incident.
The couple died almost 10 years ago, Labor Day weekend. They were in fine fuels when the truck they were in got a flat tire, while changing it the wind shifted direction and over came the truck.
How do I remember it so well? That same weekend an arsonist came through our area and started 13 fires. Talk to D. Williams for more info.

Cris

Our loyalty was not sold "cheaply" as you say for a new truck. Out of three (3) representatives for our state only Conrad wrote back to us to show his support of our request for a grant to buy that new truck.

As I asked before, but none of you answered, when was the last time you had a landowner in your rig or dealt with that person who not only lost a years worth of hard work in just a few moments, but now has to face the prospect of cleaning up the mess?

Conrad spoke with the people most affected in the fires and had lost the most. So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the fences lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed their stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?

I got an idea take off your fire boots and go walk a couple miles in their boots.

Conrad spoke to the landowners and got mad because they were mad.

So which one of you talked to the landowners and found out the best place to set up a defense? No one?

Conrad is still a good man in my book no matter what. He speaks his mind no matter what. To me that's better then a fence sitting person who can't answer a straight question.

FireFighters back FireFighters,

Your remark about Senators criticizing returning troops about a "poor" job. That has already happened. Where were you? They just didn't have the guts to face them and do it.

It is also amazing that people are demanding that he he become responsible for his words, but if any of you finally decide to look back in the achives here, why don't you look up where you were all demanding someone take responsibility for their actions that caused the loss of life in a fire blow up.

All his words did is cause hurt feelings, but their actions caused loss of life. So which is worse?

Cris

It's good to hear that Conrad Burns helped your department get some much needed fire equipment like a Type 6 engine. I'm sure that if your department has a legitimate need for continued Federal support that Senator Jon Tester will be the first in line to support those needs.

You made some assumptions about my background ("I guess you have never had a pissed off land owner in your rig with you before....."), and so I probably need to fill in a few blanks. Yeah, I've had lots of pissed off land owners in my rig before: for 13 years, I was in Fire with the USFS in some super-conservative, Fed-hating ranching communities in Eastern Oregon. I not only heard from them from the front seats of rigs, but also after church on Sunday, at Little League baseball games, at PTA meetings, in the pizza parlor/beer hall, at County Fair and at the cattle auction yard, See, I raise cows, irrigate and put up hay, so those pissed off landowners are my friends and neighbors too! In addition to that, I've been doing the Ops Chief 1 job on National IMTs since 1986, and have been yelled and screamed at by the best of them, from "Biscuit" to "Big Bar" to the "Sunrise fire" on Long island New York.

You're proud of being a Marine, and rightfully so! I spent 3+ years on active duty with the US Army during the VietNam era (1968-1972), and another 25 years in the National Guard. I feel a strong sense of loyalty to them as a large group, but totally disassociate myself from other Army vets like Lt. William Calley (ever hear about My Lai?), or the ex-Army wacko that blew up the Fed Building in Oklahoma City. The same for those Army troops that disgrace the uniform in Abu Graib or rape and kill little girls in Haditha.

You ask if I know Conrad: well, I've lived and worked in Montana the entire time that he's been in the US Senate, and have shaken his hand on several occasions . Montana is a small State with less than 1 million folks, so our Senators are always close to us, and their votes on each Bill is reported weekly in my local paper. So yeah, I think I know Conrad!
Lastly, you say that Conrad represents the land owners and not "out-of-staters": BULL!

He's a Senator that is supposed to not only represent Montanans (which includes alot of wildland firefighters that aren't "landowners"), but he's also a member of an elite group of 100 women and men that are supposed to do the right thing for all the citizens of the US, not just big ranchers in eastern Montana that contribute to his campaign fund.

But the real issue here is not if Conrad was a good Marine or if I've ridden with pissed off landowners: the issue is that a US Senator abused his power to intimidate and belittle some USFS firefighters who really couldn't fight back. If Conrad went into a bar outside of Camp Pendleton and bad-mouthed the Marines, US Senator or not, he'd be wearing his teeth on a necklace.

My votes are for the Augusta IHC, and soon-to-be Senator Jon Tester.

Mollysboy

A friend of mine with San Bernardino County Fire (Sawtooth and Millard, not to mention the Old Fire a few years ago) is researching the issue. His department has the stuff cached at different locations for use and very little info was provided from the vendors reps.

As for Sen. Burns, it would not be a bad idea to e-mail his office regarding every funding issue that I have seen come up in the past year. Since he brought up the Homeland Security comparison, he obviously has slept through the Federal Wildland Fire Service's funding issues, which are not as important, in his eyes. The exhausted firefighters behaved far more professionally than the overpaid and underworked public representative.

Fyr Etr

Earthpig

psssst, I'll agree with you that the hotshots are professional firefighters. I'll also disagree on other points: some hotshots have written in; they do feel slighted; others on the fireline don't have their laptops along. "Tool time" replaces keyboarding when so many fires are raging. Ab.

Ab will pass the info on.

You're right, even politicians have the right to express themselves and their opinions in a public forum. They also have a right to behave in any fashion they see fit, so long as it is not contrary to orderly norms of society.

However, like everyone else, they have are responsible for the content and consequences of that speech and behavior. The public and professional outrage that is being generated is a manifestation of those consequences. He is a public figure, an elected official that presumptively should subscribe to more stringent standards of decorum than the average citizen. His diatribe was crude, profane, and peculiarly misdirected toward a group of guys and gals who swing tools for living and pay his salary. In that sense, he was nothing more than a bully. He must have been hiding behind his pompous image as "The Senator" when he popped off because I can't imagine most shots putting up with that kind of bulls@#$t abuse from any other pasty faced codger in the crowd.

It is irrelevant that Senator Burns personally or professionally enriched your life. That's what we call out here in hill country "anecdotal" and not a salient point in the current whirlwind of discussion. I'm glad you got a nice new rig out of the bargain but I can't believe that you would sell your loyalties so cheaply. As far as substituting an organizational allegiance for critical thought (i.e.: "Semper Fi", Marines back marines!), I've always believed it to be the crutch of an intellectual weakling. By that same line of thinking, you backed the play of Lee Harvey Oswald, or Charles Whitman simply because they once wore the same clothing you did. Try a little more stringency, and you'll have a better grasp of what free speech really is all about.

Joe Hill

i just wanted to thank you all for your hard work and dedication fighting the fires out here in MT. If it wasnt for you, the whole state may have gone up in smoke. please dont let his comments deter your from coming back to help us. sen burns' is not how all people here in MT think and act.

as the girlfriend of a firefighter, i know how much you sacrifice to save someones house, land, car, animals and not to mention time away from your families. we should be thanking you instead of cutting you down.

thanks a bunch guys and gals!!!
jennifer stokes
billings MT

MG

Mollysboy,

I guess you have never had a very P**sed off land owner in your "rig" with you before. I have. Try it some time it is a real blast. Best thing to do is be quiet and say nothing.

As for Conrad Burns too bad you don't know the man.

If it wasn't for Conrad our fire company wouldn't have gotten a new type6 fire truck.

So what if he speaks what's on his mind. I thought that was Free Speech. As for the fire fighters get over it.

Conrad spoke to the landowners first because they are the ones most affected by these fires and had lost the most. How many of the landowners were out there fighting the fires before the DNRC and the "paid" firefigters showed up? I have a good idea that a good majority of them were out there. How many of them have been fighting fires on their land before you were even born? I personally know a few.

Conrad represents the landowners not the out of state firefighters.

Well that is all I have to say for now except:
Conrad if you read this "Semper Fi!" Marines back Marines.

Cris (PFC)

Any base that uses thermogel will have the MSDS. I don't know who is.

Fly

We were just sent the notices that we are going to level 5. Need to get all
the overhead on the area together to read the bulletins and explain what this
means.

KD

This is so much fun I can't stand it!

Seriously, you cannot believe what an embarrassment this clown has been
for the past 18 years - and to think that wildland firefighter-bashing could
lead to his ultimate demise is too good to be true!

Gash Creek fire on the Bitterroot is getting a head of steam up this PM with
100 F and winds too. If we get dry lightning in the next few days, we're off
to the races!

Aberdeen

Time to yeller up. NorCal is off to the races too. Ab.

Mollysboy

Burns' criticism cut from report
www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/07/28/news/mtregional/news05.txt

Whooooo'whee, this is not good press for the Senator. The story is propagating across the country... Google results Oh my, here's one that includes a link to theysaid... Nice job, Casey! www.greatfallstribune.com

Jeff, Jesse and the Eldorado want to express our sincere thanks.

I know that information is slow to be released and many are wondering
about their condition. What I've found out is that any information that is
released must come from one of them. The hospital, doctor and nurses can't
release any information to me. It must come from them. So, I can report
that both are improving, but with healing comes intense pain. Jeff could
possibly be released as early as Monday but must be able to change bandages
and cleanse wounds without medication before release. Jesse will be at
least another week. As reported both have second degree burns. Can't give
exact dates as it depends on many things. Both Jeff and Jesse appreciate
the calls and well wishes.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation came through as usual with immediate
support to the families; flying Jeff's mom out and finding her a hotel. No
policy nonsense to have to deal with. They secured rooms for us as well
until we could put it on our cards. They are truly appreciated. If you'd like
to send a card to Jeff and Jesse the address is:

University Medical Center,
1800 West Charleston,
Las Vegas, NV 89102.

Live plants or flowers are not allowed in the Burn Unit.

Visits from the Bear Divide and Klamath Hotshots really meant a lot to Jeff
and Jesse. Calls from many other crews as well. It's great to see this kind
of support and concern. Thanks to all.

The rest of the crew is doing well and coming through this together.
There are too many people to mention who have stepped up to help out.
Clark County Fire, the HTF and BLM just to mention a few. If you're
compelled to want to help in some way, the best thing you could do
is to donate to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Thanks again
and I'll get updates out as I get them.

Gary Humphrey
Eldorado National Forest
South Division Chief

Thanks for the update. Ab.

Thanks.

Fyr Etr

Captain Ron

I can't tell you how or why the ADs are FLSA exempt. I can tell you to contact people in the Alaska State Forestry Department and ask them what happened to their EFF (their version of AD) a few years back.

They didn't have to pay OT and got sued. Now they pay OT, but they dropped the rates back when they switched over, to make up the difference.

I don't know any more than that though.

KD

From the Rapid City Journal:
www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/07/27/pmedition/news/news01.txt

"Two fire injuries on smaller fires in the northern Black Hills have resulted in firefighters being taken to hospital. One firefighter suffered from severe heat exhaustion and was taken by ambulance to a hospital. Another, a smoke jumper, was injured jumping on a small fire and was flown to Rapid City for treatment."

S

Skuabird

Senator sorry for criticizing firefighters
Burns confronted crew at airport, said they did 'poor job'
The Associated Press
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14068593/

Updated: 10:16 p.m. MT July 27, 2006

HELENA, Mont. - Sen. Conrad Burns apologized Thursday for criticizing a firefighting team for their work on a blaze in southern Montana, saying his frustration came from a meeting with upset landowners.

Burns confronted members of a Virginia firefighting team at an airport and told them they had done a "poor job," according to a state official's report obtained Thursday.

"In retrospect, I wish I had chosen my words more carefully," Burns said in a statement. "My criticism of the way the fire was handled should not have been directed at those who were working hard to put it out."

Members of the "hotshot" wildfire crew said Burns confronted them in the Billings airport Sunday while they were awaiting a flight home, according to a report by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation employee.

The firefighters said Burns told them they had done a "poor job" and should have listened to the concerns of ranchers, the report said.

"My frustration came from meeting with landowners who were critical of the way the fire was handled," Burns said. "Whatever the reason, I should have simply thanked those who worked hard to put out the fire."

The hotshot crew was battling a 143-square-mile wildfire near Pompeys Pillar National Monument, east of Billings. The blaze started July 12 and was contained last week.

Rosenthal, who prepared her report at the direction of agency supervisors, said she was sent to the airport to meet with Burns after reports of an "altercation."

"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area," Rosenthal wrote. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."

She said Burns also was concerned and upset about the "command and control" system for firefighting efforts and made "several comments about us `not letting ranchers fight the fire on their own land.'"

She said she responded that that safety is always a priority.

"He replied, `We're fighting a war on terror and we're concerned about safety there too, but we're out there doing it,'" Rosenthal wrote.

The superintendent of the hotshot team, Jeff Koenig based in Staunton, Va., confirmed his team encountered Burns at the airport, but referred questions to spokeswoman JoBeth Brown.

Brown said members of the team who were present "have chosen not to say anything more about this."

"They're firefighters first," she said, "and they're really just interested in fighting fire."

Bob Harrington, forestry division administrator for the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, said Thursday that Rosenthal's conversation with Burns was cordial. However, Harrington said the firefighters reported a less cordial exchange with the senator.

'Utmost respect'

"I wasn't present for that, nor was Paula, but it is my understanding from discussions that there was some level of lively discussion, shall we say?" Harrington said. He declined to elaborate.

Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, which represents federal firefighters, said he was disappointed Burns confronted the hotshot team.

"We have expressed our support for him in the past," Judd said. "But to make a point of blistering a bunch of hotshots, it's really disconcerting."

Burns, a Republican facing a tough re-election challenge this fall, said Thursday he has since addressed his concerns about the fire's handling to the proper officials.

"Please accept my apology for any hard feelings that my comments may have caused," Burns said. "I have the utmost respect for the job firefighters have done in Montana."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights, economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. . For more information, please see: www.law.cornell.edu Ab.

Comments

Fire grew twice the size over night, about 100+ acres. There are 46 fire fighters that were flown in to a helispot that was created yesterday. The crews spent the night up there last night. At 1000 hrs this morning, the IC (Incident Commander) of this fire reported that the whole bottom of the fire had rolled out, due to extremely steep terrain. He requested 4 Type1 crews and two Type2 helicopters for exclusive use on this fire. Operations Chief (Jameson) informed him that no Type1 crews or additional helicopters were available in the Region. Jameson offered Type2 crews, but the IC declined. He stated that the terrain and conditions of the fire were unsuitable for Type2 crews.

The IC also stated that he can hear fire below them, but is unable to see it. Lookout on Orleans Mtn, and is unable to see the fire anymore due to the current inversion. Orleans Complex IC (Annand) made the call to disengage the fire and to have all resources pulled off the mountain. Currently the helicopter is shuttling people off the fire.

This is a classic "Cramer Fire" situation. Good call by the IC to get those fire fighters off the mountain. When the inversion lifts, (which is starting to happen now) we are expecting the fire to make major runs. The microwave is starting to be affected. Orleans lost all long distance service at 0930hrs, and local service is hit and miss. Currently we are not affected at Oak Bottom Fire Station / Somes Bar. The only communication by telephone Orleans has with Fortuna Dispatch right now is the one "tie-line". Radio and repeaters are not affected at this time. So if you loose contact with me or anyone else from Orleans / Somes Bar, you know that the microwave was over run by the fire.

We are doing the best we can, but resources are stretched through-out the state of California. We have pending resource orders and they are trying to be filled ASAP. We have just become the State's number 2 priority because of the resources and watershed that are threatened. I will keep you all informed when I can, for as long as I can.

Hot List poster

Annand, a leader who made the right choice. Way to walk the walk. Ab.

What would one expect from a Senator who's previous job before the
Senate was the Ag. Reporter on a Montana Television Network.

Toss the Bum out. He embarrasses Montana.

Pitch Pocket

As the just-retired Supt of the Ukonom handcrew and with thirty years of experience there, I would just like to warn all of you that may be on your way there to work on the fires, to be very heads up. There have been at least two years in the past five with heavy snow breakage between the 2000 and the 4000 foot range. The fuels are dry and heavy and anyone that has ever been in that country knows it's steep, very few safety zones, lots of roll out.

Have good lookouts, know when the inversion is going to break. Remember there is nothing out there worth one person.

Supt.

Thanks Supt. Ab.

Firemark glad to see you here offering your opinion. Ab.

Hi LAVE. Glad you're still lurking about.
That's a good bit of info for posting on the HotList Forum. There are probably others who can fill you in. That page has been cooking with flaming details. Ab.

The AP has contacted Casey at the FWFSA regarding Senator Burns' comments to the Augusta hot shots in the airport on their way home from weeks of dirty, tiring fire duty in Montana.

<rant>

Why should Burns comment to hotshots except to say "THANK YOU VERY MUCH"? What do hotshots have to do with the management-strategy-tactics of a very large Montana fire? Fire Teams commanded by ICs do the professional large-scale planning. Hotshots deal with their assigned piece of ground - AND THEY DO IT VERY WELL. They're our much-needed "boots and Pulaski's on the fire ground".

Military Analogy: It would be like the Senator Burns waylaying some homeward-bound Green Berets, Rangers or Seals in an airport after their long, wearing tour of war duty to tell them they should have found a civilian who was not in their chain-of-command and taken orders from him or her. I think not.

The old firefighter in me says, "A verbal blindside delivered by a Senator (or anyone else who should know better) against some of our own, deserves an inbox overflowing with the logical consequences..."

</rant>

haw haw haw... Ab.

Forest Service folks, sign up for the Honor Guard. We all need your participation. It's a great service that the Honor Guard does. Ab.

Didn't mean to tar all of Montana with the Senator's brush, not my intention
at all......... just meant that this just may be a landmark, in more ways than one,
after seeing Casey's post, to get the firefighter message out to 'real' listeners.....

Firefox

Montana's got good folks, don't tar the state with the Senator's tar brush. Ab.

Haw haw, there have been mutterings here from the office walls... <snort> "Not the first time Burns has made an a$$ of himself."

They have been through a CISD and I am sure there will be more to follow. One of the crewmembers assured me that they were all doing an excellent job of communicating with one another and have the greatest group of shoulders (the entire crew) to lean on. Sometimes there is nothing more effective than your best friend who you work side by side with and who was "there". There is an amazing network of Eldorado NF folks ranging from the Forest Supervisor down to first year firefighters helping all of these guys and their families with whatever they need.

Thanks for your concern.

Published on Thursday, July 27, 2006.
Last modified on 7/27/2006 at 12:15 am
Burns criticizes firefighters, says they didn't heed ranchers

By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau
HELENA - Republican Sen. Conrad Burns chastised a group of firefighters over the weekend for doing a "poor job" dousing a 92,000-acre blaze near Billings, a state report shows.

Burns and the firefighters - members of the Augusta Hot Shots from the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in Virginia -were at Billings Logan International Airport awaiting flights, according to Burns and Forest Service representatives.

Burns approached the firefighters and told them they had "done a poor job" and "should have listened to the ranchers," according to a report prepared by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation employee who was sent to the airport to speak with the senator.

Rosenthal wrote in her report that she received word of an "altercation" between Burns and the Hot Shot crew. The crew had been in Montana working on the Bundy Railroad fire near Worden.

The 92,000-acre timber, grass and sagebrush fire was contained on July 19, and the 368 people who came to fight it began dispersing a few days later.

Burns had been in Billings to commemorate the new interpretive center at Pompeys Pillar, the sandstone bluff near the Yellowstone River where explorer William Clark scratched his signature while on the Lewis and Clark Expedition.

Burns had also met with local ranchers affected by the blaze.

Matt Mackowiak, a Burns spokesman, said he didn't think Burns met with any of the fire bosses handling the fire.

By the time Rosenthal reached the airport, the interaction had ended. Burns told her he was concerned that fires are run out of the National Interagency Fire Center, in Boise, Idaho, which he called "ridiculous."

"The government needs to listen to these ranchers," the report quotes Burns as saying.

Mary Sexton, director of the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, said in an interview that the National Interagency Fire Center does not run individual fires but is the national hub for fire information and available resources. Beneath the Boise center are several regional dispatch centers, including one for the northern Rocky Mountain area in Missoula. Individual fires are managed by the fire bosses on the ground, Sexton said.

Burns also said he was concerned that fire bosses don't let ranchers fight fire on their own land. Rosenthal wrote in her report that she told the senator that "private citizens were integral to our success, as were (volunteer fire departments), county governments" and others.

Sexton said fire teams - the groups of national and local fire experts who come to manage and fight large fires - cannot tell private landowners what to do. They cannot force them to evacuate or prevent them from fighting fire on their own land. However, Sexton said fire bosses prefer to know where all people working on a fire are - including landowners - and may ask landowners not to help in the interest of safety.

Burns also said he had heard from one rancher that fire crews on the Bundy Railroad fire put a strip of fire retardant on the edge of Bureau of Land Management federal land, implying the fire crews were more interested in protecting public land than private.

"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area," Rosenthal's report reads. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."

Rosenthal's report said she would take Burns' concerns back to agency officials, and Burns thanked her for taking the time to listen to him.

Dan Jerome, a spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service in the agency's Washington, D.C., office, said the agency has heard from Burns regarding his concerns.

"Essentially, the senator had some issues with a fire and we heard those," Jerome said. "He talked to the crew about those. Generally, the place to talk about them is with the Forest Service. Meanwhile, the crew is out fighting fire, and we're proud of the work they do."

Jerome said the agency is working on addressing Burns' concerns.

Mackowiak said Burns has been hearing from Montanans affected by wildfire for weeks.

"As a result, he very responsibly reaches out to policymakers in Washington to make sure that all coordination is being done in the best and most reasonable manner," he said.

Burns talked to Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey about his concerns, Mackowiak said, and Rey has since personally called the ranchers with whom Burns spoke. The Forest Service is part of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Burns wants to make sure that fire policy is "adequate and adaptive," Mackowiak said, and the senator is pushing for emergency assistance for ranchers and landowners affected by the blazes.

Copyright © The Billings Gazette, a division of Lee Enterprises.

S

Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights, economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. . For more information, please see: www.law.cornell.edu Ab.

To all of those who hear bits and pieces, please be careful not to spread rumors. I work with them and have first hand knowledge of the incident. As you can imagine the whole crew as well as co-workers, friends and family are in the middle of a very emotional ordeal right now, not only because of the incident but also the treatment afterwards ie; medi-vac/hospital (details will be given later). Hear-say can only make things worse.

Keep them on your minds and in your hearts.

ABO

A great gal, Cathy Risdon from the Clark Co Fire Dept employee assistance program has arranged places for the moms to stay in Las Vegas. (Clark Co is the county Las Vegas is in.) It's so great to have the structure firefighters support teams helping the moms and working with our wildland supporters at the Foundation. Wildland or structure, vollie, state, county or fed, we have a remarkable community of firefighters!

One of the two shots is doing so well he may be released in the next day or two. The second one will need longer treatment. I hope the crew is getting critical incident stress debriefing, they must be, and it's important for those who were not too affected to be present so their fellow firefighters can work through and integrate the incident. I have my fingers crossed for all those guys.

For everyone following the columns in the northern part of California, here's a good link:
Fire Information Summary

Mellie

Fire behavior has been extreme at times over the last days with the thunderclouds overhead. Be safe. Do not compromise LCES. Resources are very short. Many of the lightning fires in the wilderness areas and surrounding forests are likely to burn longer term since they're not being picked up on IA or EA due to fuel, terrain and resources. We're dealing with fuel and topography driven fires, folks, a number of which will go until the rains come if they're not picked up soon.

Mellie, we may get one of your famous hugs soon. Fire up the huggin' arm and your great laugh.

NorCal Tom.

Fire crews I work with were on the scene about 40 yards below the hot shots and witnessed the whole ordeal.

(As "actual" visuals may be lost in the final reports, this is the best view I can give)

A dozer line was established. The "new" type 2 team was in place. The order was given to burn it out and thus, the fire would be out. Local fire fighters on the scene noticed a thundercloud in the sky. In this area, a single thundercloud designates high erratic winds (up to 45 mph) with "dust devils" in normal conditions.

The burn proceeded. One of the areas infamous "dust devils" hit the fire. Eye reports say this was a "huge" whirlwind. (I have seen them up to an acre in width, my interpretation would be a whirlwind covering 1/2 to one acre..........this is not confirmed as I had other questions for the crew when I talked to them.)

Some of the hotshots ran in one direction on the dozer line, around into the safe black, and back to safety. Other crew members ran toward my crews' engines on the dozer line. The actual words were "they were 'entrapped' "(not over run). They said it happened fast - no time for shelter deployment.

I believe that in the final report "local weather influences" should be discussed. Many times in my career, I have gained more knowledge on weather from the locals before entering a fire, than generic reports can accurately interpret for a whole district.

"Tuffy"

Our problem, as with so many other volunteer fire departments, is with keeping up on current regulations and trainings to keep our people safe. Our chief wants to "retire", step down to give him time to deal with his health issues. We have no one in the dept. who is able to or interested in assuming the responsibilities. What we need most is someone with firefighting and/or administrative experience who wants to retire to a beautiful area and wouldn't mind being involved in a small, laid-back community.

I guess where I'm headed is, how do we, and where do we, go about advertising and promoting ourselves and our need to interested people? Are there publications, websites, organizations, etc. that we could contact? Our entire county has a population of about 13,000, and there aren't a lot of qualified people just waiting around! Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

You may notice I've sent this e-mail to another person; that is the Chairman of our District Board. I look forward to your response.

Thanks,

Eric Blomberg

Eric, I know your community and your fire department. Very nice spot, along Hwy 299 30-40 min west of Redding. Readers, anyone out there looking for a great place to retire, this is it.

I don't have any answers for you Eric, but maybe some of our readers will have ideas. Ab.

the Las Vegas Sun

"Six firefighters injured in wildfire northwest of Winnemucca" .
www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2006/jul/26/072610035.html

The WFF is flying the mom of one of the hotshots to Las Vegas and has made arrangements for her hotel. Burk is on it.

Three hotshots had minor burns and were treated in camp and then driven to the hospital, treated and released. Of the other three who were flown, one was treated and released from the hospital in Winnemucca; two were transported to the Las Vegas burn center. They have second and first degree burns over 50% of their bodies but no airway involvement (that is, no inhalation burns - very good news). We expect the 24 hour Report to be out in a timely manner. As you know it will have bare-bones info. The 72 Hour Report should provide more details. We're periodically briefed and when we are, we'll post it here.

For more info, see the release below. It just came in. Ab.

Thanks. Ab.

Preference for crew bosses will be first given to the previous crew bosses that helped in basic academies, then to the assistant crew bosses who helped. All interested parties are encouraged to apply, even if you have not participated in the academies before. Remember, there are no assistant crew bosses at the advanced academies.

For formal instructional cadres, we have three slots open for S-234 and three for S-290. We will also solicit interest in the “Third Instructor” or liaison positions to assist MCS in L-380, Fireline Leadership. Please use the instructor application for 3rds.

Call Scott Whitmire at 916-640-1061 or 916-717-6615 (cell) for info.
For BLM call Rick Roach at 916-640-1080 or 916-997-6655 (cell).

Please call or submit an application even if you do not know your training/work schedules for the winter. We can adjust scheduling on our end.

This is one of the best venues for learning and enhancing leadership and instructional skills. The academies also offer a golden opportunity to positively influence our new career fire employees.

Scott Whitmire
Assistant Coordinator
National Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program

The Eldorado Hotshots have been involved in a burnover on New York Peak fire, NW of Winnemucca Nevada. Three were hospitalized. One was treated and released. Assessments of two others were that they have 2nd degree burns over 35 % of their bodies. They were transported to Las Vegas for treatment.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is apprised of the situation and is standing by to help with arrangements and costs if help is necessary.

As more information becomes available, we'll let you know.

My thoughts and prayers for those involved.

Please be safe out there. This is a dangerous job.

Ab.

For anyone interested in some "heavy lifting" reading this summer (as time and the fires allow), check out Kennedy's new book "Wildfire and Americans: how to Save Lives, Property and Your Tax Dollars".