"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
July, 2006
Home of the Wildland
Firefighter
| DATE |
|
| 7/31 |
We offer our thanks to buffy for bringing to our attention there was a lack
of navigation once folks entered the Hotlist Forum. While we take some small
bit of pride in trying to think "outside the box", it seems in this case
we'd failed to provide our audience a way out of one.
And to the person advising us that They Said It would be easier to read if
it was just black text on a white background, we reply, "but then you
couldn't walk down government hallways peering in the doors and seeing that
nice yellow/orange glow reflected on the face and eyes of those watching you
pass."
We appreciate and look forward to our viewers' input. Without your
participation we wouldn't be here. As we conclude the end of this last day
of the month of July, we are pleased to see that we have again achieved new
highs for new visitors, returning visitors, and pages viewed. While we may
have lost one argumentative writer from Montana and another writer who swore
to never come back because we refused to post their hostile comments, at the
same time we're happy to welcome several thousand new viewers.
As we near our tenth year of commitment to providing a communication link to
what you all think is important and feel strongly about, we feel we must be
do'in something right. Thanks again to buffy for pointing out our lack of
thought!
OA. |
| 7/31 |
Anybody notice the Happy Camp Complex on the Klamath? Almost ran screaming
from the room when I saw that one on the Sit Report! Still scarred from
Happy Camp Complex ca. 1987. Who remembers that one? The source of some of
my most surreal fire experiences. I wonder if it is as smoky this time?
GG Fire |
| 7/31 |
Ab & All,
Like many others, I have been wondering what, if anything, is happening with
Doctrine. The NIFC Doctrine website hasn’t changed in months. I recently
heard from a usually reputable source that the Aviation Doctrine developed
in January 2006 at the second Pulaski Conference was gutted by our national
(ahem) leadership to the point it was no longer recognizable. Is this why it
hasn’t been added to the Doctrine info on the NIFC FS site? Is real Doctrine
achievable under Mark Rey and the present administration? Will the next
Pulaski Conference happen even if the Aviation Doctrine isn’t incorporated
with the original? Is Doctrine dead? Does anybody care?
Misery Whip |
| 7/31 |
An Interagency Aviation Safety Alert just came in. Ab. Discussion: A
review of recently reported SAFECOMs indicates that a trend is becoming
evident;
pre-flight inspections are not being thoroughly completed, and checklists
are not being utilized. This of
course is not true in every case, but it is occurring with enough regularity
that it warrants attention.
Several of the following incidents could have been prevented with proper
pre-flight inspections and by
using checklists. Fatigue, complacency or a false sense of urgency to
accomplish a mission can all be
contributing factors in incomplete pre-flight inspections or failure to use
a checklist.
A few recent incidents include: pilots taking off without checking fuel,
starting helicopters with rotors
tied down, loose fuel caps, unlatched windows, and doors not properly shut.
Many of these incidents
could have had severe consequences. The following excerpts are from a few of
the SAFECOMS:
Click here to read the rest of the
pdf file of the alert. Ab. |
| 7/31 |
Ab, New GAO Report:
Wildland Fire Rehabilitation and Restoration: Forest Service and BLM Could
Benefit from
Improved Information on Status of Needed Work
GAO-06-670, June 30,
2006
Abstract Highlights-PDF PDF
Govt Watcher |
| 7/31 |
July 21, 2006 [Proposed Rules]
Reemployment of Civilian Retirees To Meet Exceptional
Employment Needs
SUMMARY: The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) is
issuing proposed regulations to amend the criteria under which OPM may grant
dual compensation (salary off-set) waivers on a case-by-case basis, or
delegate waiver authority to agencies. This amendment clarifies that OPM may
grant or delegate to agencies the authority to grant such waivers in
situations resulting from emergencies posing an immediate and direct threat
to life or property or situations resulting from unusual circumstances that
do not involve an emergency.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Janice Warren, 202-606-2367 or e-mail: janice.warren@opm.gov
[PDF [75
KB] or
TEXT ] |
| 7/31 |
Apologies: Here is my list:
To Joe Hill, I am sorry that I even spoke up and by not having "Your" strong
intellectual mind.
Original AB, I am sorry that I do not have your writing ability.
"Signed", I am sorry for not being quiet and offending you.
FireFighters Back FireFighters, I am sorry for making you upset.
YM, I am sorry that you hate landowners so much that you had to criticize
them on this site. I am sorry for making you do that.
I thought we could all step back and try to take a look outside the box from
a different angle, but I was wrong and I have the courage to admit it.
We all risk our lives no matter if we are paid or not.
Cris |
| 7/31 |
Ab,
Firefighters are getting tired, worn down and sometimes need to hydrate
more than they have been doing. SoCal had problems with firefighters dealing
with 100+ temps. Hot days and cold nights in NorCal make people susceptible
to colds. It has been cold at night in norcal and hot during the day.
Here are a couple of useful sites relating to these issues. Heads up.
§ Heat Stress:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/fitness/heat_stress//hs_pg1.html
§ Fatigue Intro:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/fatigue.htm
§ Signs of Fatigue:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/h_s_rpts/spring_2002/signs.htm
Todd |
| 7/31 |
Jody,
"Disengage" has fallen out of favor, at least from the agency perspective.
Here's a pretty good explanation from a Safety Zone newsletter from last
year:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/council/newsletters/sept_05/sep05.html
Disengagement got to be a real big problem during the 2002 fire season, in
the aftermath of Thirtymile. Crews could say they were "disengaging for
safety reasons" and take the rest of the day off at firecamp, or somewhere
else in the shade. The DRAW-D concept allows us to address safety concerns
and mitigate risks without abandoning the fight entirely.
And, yes, we are all related to Nerd. She's a sister to about a million
firefighters around the country, which must make it real tough for her to
get a date.
vfd cap'nNice page explaining levels of engagement. HAW HAW on the
Nerd comment. Not true, but funny. Ab. |
| 7/31 |
Re: Jody "Let Burn" and "Monitor" Thanks 2cents for prescribed fire
definitions. That's what I thought about "let it burn" (bad word, bad, bad).
I have a friend who thinks we should let most fires burn. Nice guy but he
doesn't really know much about fire. (I didn't either before my summerjob
last year. Still don't know much, but know how to sharpen a pulaski.)
Anyways, I've been trying to educate him and I'm trying to talk him into
fighting fire next summer...
What about wildfire (not prescribed fire) that is described as being
"monitored" and having no active ground pounding or air show going on? Other
day I heard some residents in Redding (near the norcali fires) saying
"they're just letting it burn". I told them it wasn't a matter of "letting",
it was the reality that there were no resources to do anything more
than watch the fire and make plans for if they got those hotshot crews or
that airtanker they needed. People assume we have enough fire resources to
protect anything. If only they knew...
Jody |
| 7/31 |
Re: Jody "Let Burn" and "Monitor" Let me try to explain this, as I am from
a forest that
is very WFU Wildland Fire Use oriented. The term "let
burn" or "let it burn" was used by firefighters back
when PNF Prescribed Natural Fires were the rage. It's
a term that stuck, but was and is very out of place in
today's WFU fires. These type of fires are managed for
resource benefits, and not left to "let burn". Trigger
points are set by management teams, where if certain
events occur or the fire gets to a certain ridge then
pre-identified actions will occur, IE lines put in to
redirect, backfires lit to prevent it from escaping
predefined boundaries. And yes, fire will always be
monitored. Sometimes the monitoring is an overflight
every 3 days, or a crew hikes in to check it every
couple days. It depends on the incident. Our forest
has had WFU fire that are a 1/10 acre and we have had
multiple 5000+ acre complexes going at the same time.
The terms "Let Burn" or "Let it Burn" should be
removed from the firefighters vocabulary. Fires are
"Managed".
Someone else can explain the engage/disengage.
Hope this helps.
Sign me, My 2cents |
| 7/31 |
Lancer212, You asked,
What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?
That is usually about the time we are at preparedness level 5. You can
work it from there I bet.
lol
KD |
| 7/31 |
Ab, I'm fairly new to fire and trying to understand nuances of some terms.
It's interesting to me how they're used by firefighters, if they are, and
how the public might "take them".
What are the differences between "let burn" and "monitor". Monitoring
just means watching the fire, right?
- It's associated with prescribed fire "for resource use".
- It might also be watching the fire because that's all you can do.
When do you quit monitoring? Is monitoring a strategy or a tactic?
Do we ever just "let it burn"?
What about "disengage". It might sound bad to the public that is in a
panic, like we're not trying, but on the ground we do need to disengage or
back off from a fire sometimes. The fire orders are rules of engagement and
disengagement, like the right tactics to apply if the fire changes.
Jody,
(I think I'm related to Nerd on the Fireline) |
| 7/31 |
Heads up on the weather that could seriously influence the NorCal fires.
There was a weather conference call yesterday. Meteorologists are predicting
thunder cells and dry lightning to accompany a new front. They're predicted
to begin this evening. We saw the wispy high "mares tales" clouds yesterday
that predict the front's arrival within a day or two. Be safe. Stay
alert to the weather.
NorCal Tom |
| 7/31 |
Ab and ALL, Here is the link for MSNBC, to nominate Vicki Minor and the
WFFF for their GREAT
Support to the Wildland Fire Service Community.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10397946/
Retired BC |
| 7/31 |
To Chris (PFC), Mollysboy, and Misery Whip.
I have actually enjoyed the last bit of postings by you all. Chris, your
posting did push a lot of buttons, and that is a good thing. Being an Engine
Boss for the USFS in Western North Dakota, I have dealt with a lot of pissed
of Ranchers. Most of them are not happy with big Government in the first
place, as most of them deal with us on grazing issues, and if the fire
started on their own property, they are afraid we are going to charge them
for the cost.
The local FS ranger stations are a little more aware of the issues,
politics and personalities. In North Dakota, many of the issues are being
worked through because of us offering training in the winter for some of the
local fire departments. I still see volunteer fire departments and locals
doing things on the fireline that scare me and make me worry about their
safety. I know some of you might say that we should throw the safety hazard
people off of the fireline, but how do you throw a rancher off of his own
property? You need a local sheriff for that. I had a rancher inform me that
he had been fighting fire in this country for thirty years. I did not tell
him that in my 11 years as a fire fighter, I had probably seen 5 times as
much fire. What the rancher sees is a younger government guy in a Fed rig
coming to intrude further in his life. Sometimes the best you can do is
assume the worst, keep your situation awareness up and have about seven
escape routes.
When you get into larger fires that require an Incident Management Team,
politics take on a whole different level. While being a FOBS on the Roberts
Complex in Glacier National Park, I watched a team make some big political
blunders while dealing with the locals. The IMT was from California and was
used to doing things like they would in California. The team did well with
dealing with the tactics and strategy of dealing with the fire, but at their
level, They have to be aware of the political landscape and have tactics and
strategy to deal with that. Much cussing ensued, and many of the local and
state resources pulled out of dealing with the IMT. Most of what I saw was
silliness from both sides. Regardless, politics are an issue on the fire and
have to be dealt with. By the sounds of both Mollysboy and Misery Whips
post, they deal with the politics regularly and probably have a better
opinion than mine.
As for rebuilding fence, I did a bunch of that on the Clear Creak Fire in
Idaho a few years back. Funny thing is, I was rebuilding it after a hotshot
crew did it. They made a lot of rookie mistakes! :>) I think most hotshots
like to build fireline rather than fenceline!
Also, on the Clear Creak Fire, I got to work with a bunch of Marines that
were sent out from North Carolina to help fight fires in 2000. Being former
Active duty Navy and a Navy reservist, the "Squid" and "Jarhead" Jokes were
flying! I had a great time working with them.
Sign Me
Domaque (PO1) Thanks for the informative perspective, Domaque. Ab. |
| 7/31 |
Misery Whip I did forget one more thing.
10 years volunteer fighting fires. This fall 11.
Full time volunteer for 5years as President and the most highly trained
firefighter in our company. Also looking at FF1 academy.
Cris |
| 7/30 |
silly silly silly silly postings lately with the
exception of sylvia's idea. come on folks let's focus
on things that really matter. let's not let some
poster hijack this forum with nonsense. don't reply
to the chuckle heads who obviously just want
attention.
hey sylvia, i'll get my friends to nominate vicki.
any other takers?
jdMSNBC.com, click Nightly
News in the top center, then in the left column, click
Making a
Difference. |
| 7/30 |
7107 you have a problem: your system says "User unknown"... when I reply to
sender. |
| 7/30 |
Ab, What happens when the school year begins and the troops start heading
back to class? Does the FS have another hiring phase?
Lancer 212 |
| 7/30 |
Ab:
I've emailed before but it wasn't posted, so I am trying this way. If you
received it and chose not to post, please disregard; however, here goes:
There is a segment of NBC Nightly News that showcases individuals who are
"Making a Difference" I have nominated Vicki Minor from Wildland Firefighter
Foundation. The creation of the Foundation from the dust left of fires
following Storm King, to the Foundation today is a story of worth letting
the world know. We all know that through her efforts, the families and
survivors of the fallen and injured benefit greatly, financially and
emotionally. Her heart is far bigger than any fire, and the spirit-fire
within her burns with the intensity of many suns.
I am asking that anyone who has benefited from the huge hearts of the
Foundation and the people who work there, to please go to the Making a
Difference site and nominate her as well. More than one nomination may pique
their interest.
I am not very computer savvy, But I know that your computer gurus will be
able to provide a link to the page. First, it's MSNBC.com, click Nightly
News in the top center, then in the left column, click Making a Difference.
A few days ago was the fourth anniversary of the Stanza Fire engine
rollover. My daughter, Heather, died that night in 2002, along with Steve
and John. Vicki and the foundation's efforts have been essential to my
journey toward healing, and my very survival. I know that I am not the only
one who feels that way, and this venue seems to be a good way to get this
information out.
I also know that Vicki is far too humble to think that she should be singled
out in such a way, but if she had not prayed to the firegods and the spirits
of those burned over on Storm King, this wonderful organization, and the
monument, would not be.
What better way to honor the men and women of all of the Storm Kings and
Stanzas past and future, than to make known to the world the person
responsible for the Foundation. Perhaps it may even generate much needed
financial support so that the Foundation can grow and continue to help
others.
Respectfully,
Sylvia Kratzke
PS: Remember to join the
52
Club, everyoneGreat idea Sylvia; I'll do it. Vicki deserves it.
The Foundation she envisioned and made real demonstrates its value daily.
I know that with the fire raging around Orleans this last week, I've
thought often of our three firefighters who died on the Stanza. Having the
IC pull his firefighters off the Orleans complex of fires as they exceeded
safe capabilities to fight them-- well -- it made me think that Heather,
John & Steve were up there watching out and guiding the process. This Ab
will not forget them. They live on in many hearts and minds. |
| 7/30 |
Ab, I agree, just one more thought, please.........
Cris, this is not about hay, horses, land, crops, Montana, politics, Federal
Firefighters, strategy, tactics or the Augusta IHC. This is about
inappropriate actions by a person to another person(s). This is about
respect and how we interact with each other.
Presidents, Senators, FMO's, IHC Supts and Firefighters are all humans and
can make mistakes. A Leader will acknowledge the mistake, learn from the
mistake and apologize for the mistake.
The views expressed in this forum about the Senators actions would be the
same if it was a Forest Service FFMO or Division Supv who went on a rant.
Cris, if you know the Senator or someone in the Senators office, and you
think he should apologize call them and express your support for Sen Burns,
however recommend to them that the Senator should call the local unit, or
plan a trip to Va. the next time he's in DC to meet with the IHC.
Read David M. Shoup's, General, US Marine Corp write up on making mistakes.
Basically, if one does not make a mistake, they are usually not in the game,
or not out in front trying to improve how the game is being played.
The Senator needs an opportunity to show leadership by picking up the phone
and doing the right thing.
Sign,
My thoughts............ |
| 7/30 |
Ab note to the person with the invalid email addy (has data.com in it): I
will not post your emails unless we can dialog about their content. Email me
from an account I can reply to and we can have a little talk. Ab. |
| 7/30 |
Ab,
Here's something I find interesting. Take a look at the regional FS Fire &
Aviation homepage links below. The R3 Southwest and R2 Rocky Mountain both
re-direct to interagency pages hosted by NIFC. The R8 Southern link is only
an index of folders and files. Many of the regions have information about
getting hired as a seasonal fed firefighter, but R1 Northern Rockies page is
almost exclusively devoted to helping people become contractors
For people in Montana, that may just be a reflection of (or may foster) an
attitude of dissatisfaction with out-of-state resources or Boise
involvement.
vfd cap'n
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/fire/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/fire/ |
| 7/29 |
Ab,
Thanks for the info on Bill. He was an HFEO for me for five years and was a
great hand. He knew fire, mechanics, farming and how to just be a genuine
good hand. I do thank God for the time I worked with Bill and we'll keep him
in our prayers. His Nur Ranch business card describes "Two Country Nuts" for
him and Lois. That is a great sense of humor too.
Norm Silver, BC Retired CDF |
| 7/29 |
To All Firefighters Past and Present,
We need alot prayers and get well cards for a retired CDFer, Bill Buntain.
Bill is very ill right now, he had surgery last week to remove a cancerous
tumor and is fighting to stay around for a couple more years. We were down
there yesterday in Red Bluff to visit with Bill and his Dear Wife Lois. Lois
would sure appreciate alot of prayers and some get well cards for Bill.
Bill spent 25 years with CDF in Tehama County, and has been retired for 21
years. He was a Heavy Equipment Mechanic and Dozer Operator on many fires
throughout the state. Bill is 78 years old and one tough guy, but like I
said, he is very ill. Bill is home for a few days to recoup, then hopefully
they will be able to begin Chemo.. if all works out.
Please send get well cards to:
Bill Buntain
22080 Riverside Ave
Red Bluff, CA 96080
Thank You Kindly,
K & HBest wishes. Ab. |
| 7/29 |
OK Folks,
It's been fun while it lasted, but it's time to put this Burns thread
to bed.
Ab. |
| 7/29 |
Misery Whip,
Try age mid 30's. Basic, Intermediate,S-290,S-230,S-231. 2 kids, never red
carded. Kids need to be older before I do that. Plans for IC this winter.
Honorable Discharge 12 years ago. I won't go into the rest of my "Full"
life, just will say this; I cherish each breath of air I breathe and I'm
glad I'm a survivor.
It looks like my posts pushed alot of buttons.
Life goes on. We can all agree to disagree.
See ya on the next round.
Cris |
| 7/29 |
cris-
you said
So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the
fences
lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed
their stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?
I can barely afford my 1/4 acre and my 900 square foot house working hard
at a govt job. I am not inclined to donate anything to millionaire
"ranchers" because their grass (that will grow back) and their fences were
burned by grass fires that are part of the land they work. If they work on
the range, and aren't prepared for range fires, they deserve whatever
situation they're in.
Yes, I have been out on a lot of ranch fires, and dealt with a ton of
hostile ranchers, many of whom roll around their giant properties, back to
their 300 or 400,000 houses in brand new 1 ton trucks that cost about half
what I paid for my house.
I will work my a$$ off fighting fire because it's something I love to do,
not because of any sympathy I have for the foolish people who live in the
interface and flip out when the government rescue provided to them at no
cost does not meet their standards. The ranchers' attitude seems to be that
they're owed something by the government they hate, and work to minimize.
Perhaps the ranchers who are in such a "hardship" could sell the 40,000
truck and the giant houses and the million dollar land in order to make
ends meet? If they had a federal engine and crew staged near their land
for IA, they'd bitch about that too, it's the rancher's paradox, they bleed
the federal government for cheap grazing and agricultural subsidies and
complain about fire protection but will vote for low-tax small government
representatives every time.
You seem to rely on people's ignorance of how ranchers live, like the "old
western" struggling-rancher cow-camp BS...I haven't seen a struggling
rancher in 20 years-every one I see is in a shiny new truck heading back
to a million dollar property... no sympathy here.
Think about this: how many times have you had to negotiate with or pay a
hostile landowner for "land use" or "water use" to fight a fire on or
threatening their land.... I have seen this a great many times.
and hotshots should not be building rancher's fences for them at
PL5... sheesh.
-YM |
| 7/29 |
Hey Cris,
Why don't you call Conrad and tell him to put his boots on and help build
some fence. If he is so worried about the ranchers, I am sure he can take
some time out of his busy schedule to help out.
Good for you for helping out donating hay, I think that is called helping
out in YOUR community. It's a little hard for the rest of us who don't live
in Montana to help build fence or donate. That would be like me asking you
to come out to California and help build over 100 hundred homes that were
lost in the San Bernardino fires a few weeks ago?
I hope you can see were this is going.....
An-R5er |
| 7/29 |
More backsliding from Conrad; from today’s Billings Gazette:
www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/07/29/news/state/30-burns.txt
Now he says there was “no anger” during the described “altercation” with the
Augusta Hotshots. I’m starting to wonder what it was that he apologized for
in the first place.
The original article described an apparently belligerent Burns confronting
the Augusta crew in the Billings airport. It also said other Forest Service
employees were alarmed enough to call Paula Rosenthal, which is what brought
this matter to public attention. The Burns quotes after the incident
indicate he was still angry enough to make critical comments to Ms.
Rosenthal about firefighters sitting around and being “wasteful.” I would
really like to know what actually transpired between Conrad & the hotshots.
I also wonder if the Augusta crew isn’t commenting because they prefer not
to or because some gubmint official is telling them to keep quiet. How about
it? Would anyone who was there care to comment? Remember, you can post here
anonymously on your own computer on your own time and there isn’t a damn
thing the gubmint can do about it.
Mollysboy,
Good response to PFC Cris.
PFC Cris,
I’ve seen your posts here recently and have begun to form a mental image of
you based on your posts. Correct me if I’m wrong; my guess is that you’re
pretty young, about mid twenties or less, without a lot of wildland fire
experience, probably red-carded as a Firefighter Type 1 or 2. Sounds like
you work part-time for a small rural or volunteer fire department in eastern
Montana. Also, based on your PFC signature and other clues, I’d guess that
you probably recently completed your service with the Marines. If I’m
correct so far, good on ya. This country needs people who are willing to
step up. Again, please correct me if my assumptions about you based on your
posts are wrong.
As a former serviceman and firefighter, you are certainly welcome to express
your opinions on this site. But it might behoove you to know that some of
the people you are presuming to lecture here have probably been fighting
fire longer than you have been alive. Many of them work on Type 1 & 2 IMTs.
Your assumption that other They Said posters haven’t ever been exposed to
angry ranchers with burned up properties is just downright silly.
Mollysboy said it well; anyone who has been in this business any length of
time has seen on many occasions the grief and disappointment that comes in
the aftermath of a large WUI fire. But we don’t quit fighting fire safely,
no matter what angry landowners, or ignorant Senators, say.
If you continue your career as a firefighter, you’ll find that landowners
berating the government and making outrageous statements about firefighter
performance comes with the territory. Powerful politicians verbally abusing
hardworking firefighters who have nothing to do with the strategic decisions
on a fire is NOT normal. This is an aberration and deserves our strongest
contempt.
You are certainly welcome to defend Conrad if you feel you need to. Just
don’t forget that you will be judged by the company you keep (or defend).
Misery Whip |
| 7/29 |
Paula, You wrote in your report about a couple killed in a fire on their
own land but couldn't remember the incident.
The couple died almost 10 years ago, Labor Day weekend. They were in fine
fuels when the truck they were in got a flat tire, while changing it the
wind shifted direction and over came the truck.
How do I remember it so well? That same weekend an arsonist came through our
area and started 13 fires. Talk to D. Williams for more info.
Cris |
| 7/29 |
Cris (PFC),
In response to "Senators criticizing returning troops about a "poor" job.
That has already happened. Where were you? They just didn't have the guts to
face them and do it."
I am well aware of the actions of some of our distinguished members of
congress. My point wasn't about "guts", it was about your weak point about
"freedom of speech" and "speaking their mind". As it was already pointed
out, the good senator was an out of line, spoiled brat, rude, bully that hid
behind his status as a senator. If you can't see that it's a waste of time
to try and explain any further. Good luck with your Type 6.
"Firefighters back Firefighters" |
| 7/29 |
Joe Hill, Our loyalty was not sold "cheaply" as you say for a new truck.
Out of three (3) representatives for our state only Conrad wrote back to us
to show his support of our request for a grant to buy that new truck.
As I asked before, but none of you answered, when was the last time you
had a landowner in your rig or dealt with that person who not only lost a
years worth of hard work in just a few moments, but now has to face the
prospect of cleaning up the mess?
Conrad spoke with the people most affected in the fires and had lost the
most. So which one of the hot shot crews is going to help rebuild the fences
lost? Which one of you is going to buy or donate hay so they can feed their
stock?
(We are donating 2 tons of hay to anybody who needs it)
What about the rest of you?
I got an idea take off your fire boots and go walk a couple miles in
their boots.
Conrad spoke to the landowners and got mad because they were mad.
So which one of you talked to the landowners and found out the best place
to set up a defense? No one?
Conrad is still a good man in my book no matter what. He speaks his mind
no matter what. To me that's better then a fence sitting person who can't
answer a straight question.
FireFighters back FireFighters,
Your remark about Senators criticizing returning troops about a "poor"
job. That has already happened. Where were you? They just didn't have the
guts to face them and do it.
It is also amazing that people are demanding that he he become
responsible for his words, but if any of you finally decide to look back in
the achives here, why don't you look up where you were all demanding someone
take responsibility for their actions that caused the loss of life in a fire
blow up.
All his words did is cause hurt feelings, but their actions caused loss
of life. So which is worse?
Cris |
| 7/29 |
PFC Cris, It's good to hear that Conrad Burns helped your department get
some much needed fire equipment like a Type 6 engine. I'm sure that if your
department has a legitimate need for continued Federal support that Senator
Jon Tester will be the first in line to support those needs.
You made some assumptions about my background ("I guess you have never
had a pissed off land owner in your rig with you before....."), and so I
probably need to fill in a few blanks. Yeah, I've had lots of pissed off
land owners in my rig before: for 13 years, I was in Fire with the USFS in
some super-conservative, Fed-hating ranching communities in Eastern Oregon.
I not only heard from them from the front seats of rigs, but also after
church on Sunday, at Little League baseball games, at PTA meetings, in the
pizza parlor/beer hall, at County Fair and at the cattle auction yard, See,
I raise cows, irrigate and put up hay, so those pissed off landowners are my
friends and neighbors too! In addition to that, I've been doing the Ops
Chief 1 job on National IMTs since 1986, and have been yelled and screamed
at by the best of them, from "Biscuit" to "Big Bar" to the "Sunrise fire" on
Long island New York.
You're proud of being a Marine, and rightfully so! I spent 3+ years on
active duty with the US Army during the VietNam era (1968-1972), and another
25 years in the National Guard. I feel a strong sense of loyalty to them as
a large group, but totally disassociate myself from other Army vets like Lt.
William Calley (ever hear about My Lai?), or the ex-Army wacko that blew up
the Fed Building in Oklahoma City. The same for those Army troops that
disgrace the uniform in Abu Graib or rape and kill little girls in Haditha.
You ask if I know Conrad: well, I've lived and worked in Montana the
entire time that he's been in the US Senate, and have shaken his hand on
several occasions . Montana is a small State with less than 1 million folks,
so our Senators are always close to us, and their votes on each Bill is
reported weekly in my local paper. So yeah, I think I know Conrad!
Lastly, you say that Conrad represents the land owners and not "out-of-staters":
BULL!
He's a Senator that is supposed to not only represent Montanans (which
includes alot of wildland firefighters that aren't "landowners"), but he's
also a member of an elite group of 100 women and men that are supposed to do
the right thing for all the citizens of the US, not just big ranchers in
eastern Montana that contribute to his campaign fund.
But the real issue here is not if Conrad was a good Marine or if I've
ridden with pissed off landowners: the issue is that a US Senator abused his
power to intimidate and belittle some USFS firefighters who really couldn't
fight back. If Conrad went into a bar outside of Camp Pendleton and
bad-mouthed the Marines, US Senator or not, he'd be wearing his teeth on a
necklace.
My votes are for the Augusta IHC, and soon-to-be Senator Jon Tester.
Mollysboy |
| 7/29 |
Thank you to those who replied with the thermo-gel info.
A friend of mine with San Bernardino County Fire (Sawtooth and Millard,
not to mention the Old Fire a few years ago) is researching the issue. His
department has the stuff cached at different locations for use and very
little info was provided from the vendors reps.
As for Sen. Burns, it would not be a bad idea to e-mail his office regarding
every funding issue that I have seen come up in the past year. Since he
brought up the Homeland Security comparison, he obviously has slept through
the Federal Wildland Fire Service's funding issues, which are not as
important, in his eyes. The exhausted firefighters behaved far more
professionally than the overpaid and underworked public representative.
Fyr Etr |
| 7/29 |
All this righteous indignation concerning the stupid comments by Senator
Burns.
Don't we have better and more important issues to place our energy.
I am glad that the Senator took interest in his constituents in Montana came
to hear them out. I am also hopeful that he has daylighted issues with IMT's.
Have IMT's been heavy handed in dealing with local land owners and private
citizens? Yep.
How about firefighters? How many times have you had to show a lunch break
while you were actually working?
Hazard pay? Oh no, its "controlled". As you chase spot fires all day or try
to keep from being hit by rolling rocks when mopping up.
Anyone want to take on "closed camps"? Some IMT's don't seem to have a
problem restricting your freedom.
Where do I stop? We all have our issues.
Who oversees the IMT's?
I am glad a public official has taken an interest.
Senator Burns (and probably the rest of Congress) obviously is severely
uninformed as to wildland fire issues and problems. Getting Congress
informed can only help the on the ground firefighters. The only ones who
should feel sighted by Senator Burns comments are the Hotshot crews
involved. As the professionals they are the have not resorted to the name
calling going on here and are out getting the job done. My hat is off to
them.Earthpig psssst, I'll agree with you that the hotshots are
professional firefighters. I'll also disagree on other points: some hotshots
have written in; they do feel slighted; others on the fireline don't have
their laptops along. "Tool time" replaces keyboarding when so many fires are
raging. Ab. |
| 7/29 |
Chris (PFC)
Maybe you should heed your own advice "be quiet and say nothing". Having
been a Marine, I'm sure that you trained, lived and possibly even fought
with great men and women from all over the country - what makes you so
certain that the individuals on the Augusta IHC were "out-of-staters"? Yes
Chris, I have had the wonderful opportunity to serve my country in the
military as well as on an Interagency Hotshot Crew - it was not about where
we were from, but the job we were assigned to do, whether that be in Iraq or
in Montana and we did it well. We all hail from across this great nation and
didn't treat one person or piece of land any less than what we would our
own. I also know as a seasonal hotshot crewmember, you get hired and go to
the place of employment - how do you know that one or several of the members
of the Augusta IHC weren't from Montana themselves? It is foolish to use the
mentality of us vs. them and in-staters vs. out-of-staters, the point is to
get the job done and make it home safely (where ever home may be!).
What's wrong is wrong - and even if Senator Burns used his "freedom of
speech" to speak his mind to the Augusta IHC, don't you think that his
comments and concerns would be better served in Washington DC. rather than
alienating and offending a group of courageous individuals and the wildland
fire community as a whole. I hold our elected officials to a higher standard
than the general public.
On a more personal note, Chris yes we Marines do back each other, however we
are also taught right from wrong on day one of Basic Training and to uphold
the highest of personal and work ethic - with no man or woman left behind.
What Senator Burns did was wrong and as a good Marine he should make amends
by using his powers bestowed upon him by the voting public of Montana to
increase funding for safety, training, pay and health care for all
firefighters, federal, military, state, contract, volunteer, etc.....end of
story. Please do not represent all Marines in your statement.
Thank you for your time -
Signed - proudly served with honor and courage in both the military and on
the firelines! |
| 7/29 |
Wow! Very nice Joe Hill. When I grow up, I want to write like you!!
"organizational allegiance" vs. "critical thought", "crutch of an
intellectual weakling", so sweet to read!
And I've also been wondering why he didn't get a punch in the nose. I've
know shots that wouldn't care if he were Santa Claus or Jesus Christ, they'd
of at least let loose verbally and/or invited him into the nearest bathroom
to continue the discussion.
Original Ab. |
| 7/29 |
Anyone here know the status of the Tahquitz Crew on the San Bernardino
Forest? Thanks!
no name.Ab will pass the info on. |
| 7/29 |
Cris (PFC), You're right, even politicians have the right to express
themselves and their opinions in a public forum. They also have a right to
behave in any fashion they see fit, so long as it is not contrary to orderly
norms of society.
However, like everyone else, they have are responsible for the content and
consequences of that speech and behavior. The public and professional
outrage that is being generated is a manifestation of those consequences. He
is a public figure, an elected official that presumptively should subscribe
to more stringent standards of decorum than the average citizen. His
diatribe was crude, profane, and peculiarly misdirected toward a group of
guys and gals who swing tools for living and pay his salary. In that sense,
he was nothing more than a bully. He must have been hiding behind his
pompous image as "The Senator" when he popped off because I can't imagine
most shots putting up with that kind of bulls@#$t abuse from any other pasty
faced codger in the crowd.
It is irrelevant that Senator Burns personally or professionally enriched
your life. That's what we call out here in hill country "anecdotal" and not
a salient point in the current whirlwind of discussion. I'm glad you got a
nice new rig out of the bargain but I can't believe that you would sell your
loyalties so cheaply. As far as substituting an organizational allegiance
for critical thought (i.e.: "Semper Fi", Marines back marines!), I've always
believed it to be the crutch of an intellectual weakling. By that same line
of thinking, you backed the play of Lee Harvey Oswald, or Charles Whitman
simply because they once wore the same clothing you did. Try a little more
stringency, and you'll have a better grasp of what free speech really is all
about.
Joe Hill |
| 7/29 |
I've been trying to get as much information regarding the Eldorado Hotshot
burnover as I can. I worked on the Eldorado NF for several years and came to
know many of the Hotshots, coming to hold them in high regard both as a crew
and as good people. I am glad to hear that all involved are coming along
well.
Then, I come across Senator Burns' comments to the Augusta Hotshots. That
man should be going to the Augusta Shots base and apologizing to each of
them individually, then go to the Vegas Burn Center to apologize to Jesse
and Jeff. And he should do it on his own dime, not our taxpayer money.
I don't care what excuses he has for his behavior. He should take
responsibility for his comments and do the right thing to the people his
comments insult, they are an affront to the entire wildland firefighting
community.
Dave S<snip> |
| 7/29 |
sen burns' comments: i just wanted to thank you all for your hard work and
dedication fighting the fires out here in MT. If it wasnt for you, the whole
state may have gone up in smoke. please dont let his comments deter your
from coming back to help us. sen burns' is not how all people here in MT
think and act.
as the girlfriend of a firefighter, i know how much you sacrifice to save
someones house, land, car, animals and not to mention time away from your
families. we should be thanking you instead of cutting you down.
thanks a bunch guys and gals!!!
jennifer stokes
billings MT |
| 7/29 |
Cris (PFC),
Speaking your mind is one thing but being a big, powerful Senator taking out
his frustration on a group of firefighters just trying to do their job is
just plain wrong. You say "marines back marines", what would you say to "freespeech"
and "speak your mind" if some other Senator spoke to some of our troops
coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan in that manner, telling them that "they
had done a poor job". Would you still sit back behind your "free speech" and
"speak your mind" argument? I bet not, in fact you would probably feel a bit
of the outrage we all have felt.
Sign me,
"Firefighters back Firefighters" |
| 7/29 |
Abs,
Amazing. Just when you think Conrad Burns can’t sink any lower… he proves
you wrong.
Apparently, it didn’t take Conrad long to forget that he apologized to the
Augusta Hotshots for his boorish behavior at the airport. Last night he was
interviewed on local TV news, glibly explaining that he had just approached
the Augusta crew to ask for information, that he had a right to do so
because the government is paying for these fires, and that the incident was
blown way out of proportion. There was no mention of an apology.
Sounds to me like you’re saying they had it coming, eh Conrad?
I say until Conrad offers a real apology, unlike that weak press release
that was no doubt written by one of his staffers, firefighters should
continue to express their disgust over his treatment of the Augusta Hotshots
and his disdain for federal firefighters in general. Maybe if he can be
inspired to offer a real apology if he drops a few more points in the polls.
Misery Whip |
| 7/29 |
Fyr Etr
all the MSDS info you'll ever need as far as retardant and such go.
www.fs.fed.us/rm/fire/wfcs/msds.htmMG |
| 7/29 |
My name is Mike Kennard (Feather River Hand Crew '03-'04, Lassen IHC '05)
and I'm in the process of writing a freelance piece on the dangers of
fighting fires along the US-Mexico Border. If you have any stories
about run-ins with cross-border violators, or confrontations with
smugglers/traffickers while conducting fire suppression activities,
I'd love to hear about it. No story is too mundane. Even if you've
just heard rumors about something, I'd still be interested in hearing
about the details.
Also, any information specifically about the Coronado National Forest
would be extra helpful
Any info, or suggestions for people to talk with about the subject
will also be welcome. If you think you've got something of interest,
I encourage you to send it my way:
Mike.Kennard@gmail.com
or by phone at 303.829.6870
Thanks for the help.
Stay safe out there fellas. |
| 7/29 |
Re Conrad Burns: Mollysboy,
I guess you have never had a very P**sed off land owner in your "rig"
with you before. I have. Try it some time it is a real blast. Best thing to
do is be quiet and say nothing.
As for Conrad Burns too bad you don't know the man.
If it wasn't for Conrad our fire company wouldn't have gotten a new type6
fire truck.
So what if he speaks what's on his mind. I thought that was Free Speech.
As for the fire fighters get over it.
Conrad spoke to the landowners first because they are the ones most
affected by these fires and had lost the most. How many of the landowners
were out there fighting the fires before the DNRC and the "paid" firefigters
showed up? I have a good idea that a good majority of them were out there.
How many of them have been fighting fires on their land before you were even
born? I personally know a few.
Conrad represents the landowners not the out of state firefighters.
Well that is all I have to say for now except:
Conrad if you read this "Semper Fi!" Marines back Marines.
Cris (PFC) |
| 7/29 |
Ab: This just came in on the News and Notes page for the WGBC:
1715 hrs:
“Beginning Saturday, 7/29 and until further notice, all federal and
federally contracted pilots, as well as state and local flight crews
assigned to federal incidents, are limited to a maximum 12 hour duty day.
This restriction applies to pilots flying the following wildland fire
missions in all Geographic Areas, except Alaska, Eastern and Southern Areas:
large air tanker, lead plane, ASM, SEAT, ATGS, and helicopter.”
Are we having an issue with to many fires and not enough resources?
SPFDBC |
| 7/29 |
Congratulations to Evelyn Hart from the Shasta-Trinity National Forest on
her retirement.
Evelyn is currently working her last day with the Forest Service while
assigned to the
Lakin Fire.
Evelyn received a well deserved standing ovation and a round of applause at
the
planning meeting this morning!!!
Congratulations Evelyn!!!
KCK |
| 7/29 |
Re: NWCG Extreme Fire Behavior Safety Advisory
Since a picture is worth a 1000 words, just take a look at the Winter’s fire
that is currently burning 10 miles NW of Midas, NV. On 7-26-06, the total
acreage for this fire was 8000 acres. On 7-27-06, this fire exhibited what I
would call “explosive” fire behavior and moved 15 miles to the east in one
burning period. Today, the fire was remapped and the new acreage was 96,000
acres. Tonight’s 209 update shows the new total at 106,288 acres and it
could go to 217,000 acres. The most telling statement that corresponds with
the NWCG Safety Advisory was in the observed fire behavior for today;
“Extreme multiple plume dominated pyro cumulus fire behavior”.
Let’s all make sure that we watch each others back this season
SPFDBC |
| 7/28 |
Fyr Etr, Any base that uses thermogel will have the MSDS. I don't know who
is.
Fly |
| 7/28 |
ATGS....Scraps:
Thanks for taking the bait and continuing the discussion.
Who said I am going out as an ATGS? I happen to agree with you on that one
right now. I will only go out now as an FBAN compensated also for the EERA
for all of my equipment. That amount makes a huge difference.
I still instruct as a contractor all wildland fire courses from basic to
S490.....
You and I have way more in common than we have in disagreement. I just
happen to think it is time to fight fire right now and to save the fighting
about compensation issues for this coming Winter. With all of the UTF's that
have occurred in just the past few days we have a huge edge now on Uncle.
Thanks for your comments!
Nationally we just went to Preparedness Level 5........
NMAirBear |
| 7/28 |
Ab, We were just sent the notices that we are going to level 5. Need to
get all
the overhead on the area together to read the bulletins and explain what
this
means.
KD |
| 7/28 |
Ab, This is so much fun I can't stand it!
Seriously, you cannot believe what an embarrassment this clown has been
for the past 18 years - and to think that wildland firefighter-bashing could
lead to his ultimate demise is too good to be true!
Gash Creek fire on the Bitterroot is getting a head of steam up this PM with
100 F and winds too. If we get dry lightning in the next few days, we're off
to the races!
Aberdeen
Time to yeller up. NorCal is off to the races too. Ab. |
| 7/28 |
Hi Ab,
This is for "Wondering" regarding the Eldorado Hotshots on the NY fire
outside WMC.
I don't understand why the 209 didn't mention the incident; that is a team
thing. My guess would be they were trying to get the medivac, fire, and
accident investigation team handled--then were pulled from the fire. NICC
Intel has a rule that all 209's must be submitted by 0200 -- even in
emergencies, they are rather inflexible about this. I am not sure how this
T2 IMT handled the actual writing of the 209, curious if some of it was
written (prior to the incident) and they just emailed/faxed/called in the
information to CNIDC without updating. Based on radio traffic during and
after the incident, CNIDC literally fell apart. (Information only, I checked
the UTF list for 7/24 and 7/25--many EDSD and IADP requests denied). Also,
the information breakdown or editing of the 209 could easily have occurred
at CNIDC.
In the "new" world of serious accidents (aka after 30 Mile), everyone is
very politically aware. I believe this is a two part equation. One part is
wonderful: the investigation team has "clean" interviews and can function to
great effect, hopefully drawing correct conclusions which we can apply to
future situations. Additionally, the crew is protected from unnecessary
privacy intrusions. The second part is not so great: many of these political
animals are keeping their mouths shut for CYA. If something is in writing,
it can be taken to court, etc. I note, without surprise but with strong
disapproval, the lack of mention of the incident at CNIDC, the WBCC News and
Notes, or in the IMSR. I personally believe this omission was a political
calculation of the CYA variety (it is incomprehensible that the dispatch
centers were not aware). This political calculation unfortunately denies the
public limited but truly accurate information. Unfortunately, the regular
public does not have easy access to official press releases, they must
either rely on the news or get their information from official
websites--which in this case (as far as my search went) did not contain the
press release or other mention of the incident. KCRA Channel 3 News in
Sacramento got some of the story correct. Channel 2 News in Reno did a
better job: they must have a good contact somewhere in central NV. Thank you
to the wildlandfire.com site for providing links to accurate information as
it became available. I look forward to reading the 72 hr. report.
My thoughts and prayers for the crew and family members; may they all heal
quickly and cleanly. Thank Big Ernie it wasn't worse.
Old R5'er |
| 7/28 |
Fyr Etr:
No first-hand experience with Thermogel, but ran across this a few years
back
when researching issues related to a variety of chemicals being used, hope
it helps:
www.barricadegel.com/nonylphenals.htm
Stanley |
| 7/28 |
Here's the latest from today's Missoulian on Conrad Burns' comment:
pretty lewd and crude for a US Senator! These comments from a guy
who's paid $165,000 a year.Mollysboy
Burns' criticism cut from report
www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/07/28/news/mtregional/news05.txt
Whooooo'whee, this is not good press for the Senator. The story is
propagating across the country...
Google results Oh my, here's one that includes a link to theysaid...
Nice job, Casey!
www.greatfallstribune.com |
| 7/28 |
We'd like to thank all for your support of our injured firefighters. Jeff,
Jesse and the Eldorado want to express our sincere thanks.
I know that information is slow to be released and many are wondering
about their condition. What I've found out is that any information that is
released must come from one of them. The hospital, doctor and nurses can't
release any information to me. It must come from them. So, I can report
that both are improving, but with healing comes intense pain. Jeff could
possibly be released as early as Monday but must be able to change bandages
and cleanse wounds without medication before release. Jesse will be at
least another week. As reported both have second degree burns. Can't give
exact dates as it depends on many things. Both Jeff and Jesse appreciate
the calls and well wishes.
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation came through as usual with immediate
support to the families; flying Jeff's mom out and finding her a hotel. No
policy nonsense to have to deal with. They secured rooms for us as well
until we could put it on our cards. They are truly appreciated. If you'd
like
to send a card to Jeff and Jesse the address is:
University Medical Center,
1800 West Charleston,
Las Vegas, NV 89102.
Live plants or flowers are not allowed in the Burn Unit.
Visits from the Bear Divide and Klamath Hotshots really meant a lot to
Jeff
and Jesse. Calls from many other crews as well. It's great to see this kind
of support and concern. Thanks to all.
The rest of the crew is doing well and coming through this together.
There are too many people to mention who have stepped up to help out.
Clark County Fire, the HTF and BLM just to mention a few. If you're
compelled to want to help in some way, the best thing you could do
is to donate to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Thanks again
and I'll get updates out as I get them.
Gary Humphrey
Eldorado National Forest
South Division Chief
Thanks for the update. Ab. |
| 7/28 |
Has anyone experienced any skin or lung irritation when using Thermogel
to pretreat threatened structures. Someone has brought up this issue to me
and I said this forum may be a good place to get first hand experiences.
The product is a polymer.
Thanks.
Fyr Etr |
| 7/28 |
NMAB & Steve M,
I like your reasoning nmab regarding throwing your years of experience into
the fray in order to keep firefighters safe…. BUT why doesn’t our
illustrious Uncle agree with you?? $25.71 per hr, no OT or HP is ludicrous
for someone with your knowledge and skills performing as an ATGS!!!
Any ATGS who works for that pitiful low wage is, IMHO, a big part of the
problem. As has been demonstrated numerous times in the past, one gets what
one pays for. As long as folks out there are willing to work for table
scraps, nothing will change. Do what you have always done and you will get
what you always got………
All full time ATGS positions in R5 are GS-11’s. Do the math. Even 25.71 with
OT is low for someone who retired as a BC, DC or FAO/ATGS.
Speaking of keeping the young uns safe…. When was the last time you attended
or taught any of the basic firefighter through crew boss courses? Do you
have any idea what is or isn’t being taught now? Besides the pay issue,
currency in present day ground teachings and tactics should be essential to
remaining a qualified ATGS.
AN ATGS who will not work for AD table scraps,,, |
| 7/28 |
Communications Team Erects Lifeline for Firefighters Battling California
Wildfires. HPWREN Researchers bridge the Horse ICP to the Internet within 24
hours of emergency call.
Full story on the National Science Foundation news release:
www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=107121&org=olpa&from=news
Thanks,
Captain Ron |
| 7/28 |
SteveM I can't tell you how or why the ADs are FLSA exempt. I can tell you
to contact people in the Alaska State Forestry Department and ask them what
happened to their EFF (their version of AD) a few years back.
They didn't have to pay OT and got sued. Now they pay OT, but they
dropped the rates back when they switched over, to make up the difference.
I don't know any more than that though.
KD |
| 7/28 |
The Jobs Page and
Series 0462 (Forestry Technician)
& Series 0455 (Range Technician)
jobs pages and Series 0401
(Biologist) are updated. Ab. |
| 7/28 |
Firefighter injuries: From the Rapid City Journal:
www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/07/27/pmedition/news/news01.txt
"Two fire injuries on smaller fires in the northern Black Hills have
resulted in firefighters being taken to hospital. One firefighter
suffered from severe heat exhaustion and was taken by ambulance to a
hospital. Another, a smoke jumper, was injured jumping on a small fire
and was flown to Rapid City for treatment."
S |
| 7/28 |
This is a reply to the posting by Tamara Cowles on 7/23:
Tamara, if you're talking about the JACC Academy, you'll remember the USFS
bought into to address the consent decree imposed by a judge because of lack
of women and minorities in certain job series, one of which was fire. I went
throught the first academy in 1990. You ought to be able to locate your
records through the R-5 Regional Office, or via the Forest you were
assigned. Otherwise, if this wasn't the Academy sponsored by the R-5 USFS, I
don't have any other suggestions.Skuabird |
| 7/27 |
Seen this? S.
Senator sorry for criticizing firefighters
Burns confronted crew at airport, said they did 'poor job'
The Associated Press
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14068593/
Updated: 10:16 p.m. MT July 27, 2006
HELENA, Mont. - Sen. Conrad Burns apologized Thursday for criticizing a
firefighting team for their work on a blaze in southern Montana, saying
his frustration came from a meeting with upset landowners.
Burns confronted members of a Virginia firefighting team at an airport
and told them they had done a "poor job," according to a state
official's report obtained Thursday.
"In retrospect, I wish I had chosen my words more carefully," Burns said
in a statement. "My criticism of the way the fire was handled should not
have been directed at those who were working hard to put it out."
Members of the "hotshot" wildfire crew said Burns confronted them in the
Billings airport Sunday while they were awaiting a flight home,
according to a report by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural
Resources and Conservation employee.
The firefighters said Burns told them they had done a "poor job" and
should have listened to the concerns of ranchers, the report said.
"My frustration came from meeting with landowners who were critical of
the way the fire was handled," Burns said. "Whatever the reason, I
should have simply thanked those who worked hard to put out the fire."
The hotshot crew was battling a 143-square-mile wildfire near Pompeys
Pillar National Monument, east of Billings. The blaze started July 12
and was contained last week.
Rosenthal, who prepared her report at the direction of agency
supervisors, said she was sent to the airport to meet with Burns after
reports of an "altercation."
"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator
was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area,"
Rosenthal wrote. "I offered to the senator that our firefighters make
around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for overtime. He seemed a
bit surprised that it wasn't higher."
She said Burns also was concerned and upset about the "command and
control" system for firefighting efforts and made "several comments
about us `not letting ranchers fight the fire on their own land.'"
She said she responded that that safety is always a priority.
"He replied, `We're fighting a war on terror and we're concerned about
safety there too, but we're out there doing it,'" Rosenthal wrote.
The superintendent of the hotshot team, Jeff Koenig based in Staunton,
Va., confirmed his team encountered Burns at the airport, but referred
questions to spokeswoman JoBeth Brown.
Brown said members of the team who were present "have chosen not to say
anything more about this."
"They're firefighters first," she said, "and they're really just
interested in fighting fire."
Bob Harrington, forestry division administrator for the state Department
of Natural Resources and Conservation, said Thursday that Rosenthal's
conversation with Burns was cordial. However, Harrington said the
firefighters reported a less cordial exchange with the senator.
'Utmost respect'
"I wasn't present for that, nor was Paula, but it is my understanding
from discussions that there was some level of lively discussion, shall
we say?" Harrington said. He declined to elaborate.
Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service
Association, which represents federal firefighters, said he was
disappointed Burns confronted the hotshot team.
"We have expressed our support for him in the past," Judd said. "But to
make a point of blistering a bunch of hotshots, it's really
disconcerting."
Burns, a Republican facing a tough re-election challenge this fall, said
Thursday he has since addressed his concerns about the fire's handling
to the proper officials.
"Please accept my apology for any hard feelings that my comments may
have caused," Burns said. "I have the utmost respect for the job
firefighters have done in Montana."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted
material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness
and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights,
economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such
copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.
. For more information, please see:
www.law.cornell.edu Ab. |
| 7/27 |
I'd like to personally thank all those who have emailed me and called me
today with copies of emails destined for Washington etc.
I want everyone to know that the Superintendent of the Augusta IHC is a
FWFSA member and what we all say, and how we say it in the coming days
regarding this matter will be viewed as a reflection on our wildland
firefighting community. So let's be firm and tough, but professional.
Thanks in advance.
Casey |
| 7/27 |
As a Montanan, I'm ashamed and embarrassed (but not surprised) by the
comments of Senator Conrad Burns to the IHC in Billings Airport, and his
other comments about wildfire suppressions actions.
Remember folks, this is the same US Senator that talked about "living around
Ni**ers in DC" and called some Arab folks "ragheads"! We Montanans have low
expectations from Conrad, and even then he has a hard time living up to
them!
Here's a guy who promised in 1988 to only serve 2 terms, then discovered
towards the end of his second term that, guess what: seniority counts in the
Senate, and so he was going to run again for 3rd and now a 4th term. Seems
like I learned about seniority in 5th grade Civics, and I wasn't even in
Advanced Placement classes!
And as for wildfires: after the 1988, 1994, 2000 and 2003 fire seasons in
Montana, you'd think he'd have an idea about how fires are fought and
managed? Guess not!
Another thing: the fire that Conrad was b*tching about was a BLM fire, so he
calls Mark Rey, the ex-timber industry lobbyist who's got a political
appointment as Assistant Secretary in the Department of AGRICULTURE: last
time I looked, the BLM was in the Department of INTERIOR. You'd think an 18
year Senator from Montana would know better?
It's a real credit to the folks on the IHC that they handled our
Missouri-grown idiot so well, and that the rage and indignation being voiced
is all directed at Conrad.
I wear as a badge of pride that I've voted against Conrad at every
opportunity, and proudly display my "Fire Burns - 2006" bumper sticker on my
rig.
Mollysboy |
| 7/27 |
Ab,
One of the many roles in my FS and Education careers consists of writing and
editing. And for the past couple of decades I have been an ardent letter
writer for different political issues as well as working as a researcher for
a California Congresswoman. I would like to offer my services, free of
charge, to anyone out there who might need a hand in writing letters about
the issue concerning the Senator from Montana. How about this...
If people are interested in writing, but can't seem to get past the stage of
picking up the fingers and putting them to the keys to make sentences and
paragraphs, what if they sent me a brief sentence with their ideas, and let
me emphasize the word "brief," I could formulate a letter, again brief, for
them. Brief works best in these cases.
I have already done this several times today and I KNOW there are others out
there who just aren't able to muster up the final steps of producing a
letter. In my case, with this being my first season away from fire since
1983, I have a bit of spare time.
Stanley
Generous offer. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
CA SRF Somes Fire Comments
Fire grew twice the size over night, about 100+ acres. There are 46 fire
fighters that were flown in to a helispot that was created yesterday. The
crews spent the night up there last night. At 1000 hrs this morning, the IC
(Incident Commander) of this fire reported that the whole bottom of the fire
had rolled out, due to extremely steep terrain. He requested 4 Type1 crews
and two Type2 helicopters for exclusive use on this fire. Operations Chief
(Jameson) informed him that no Type1 crews or additional helicopters were
available in the Region. Jameson offered Type2 crews, but the IC declined.
He stated that the terrain and conditions of the fire were unsuitable for
Type2 crews.
The IC also stated that he can hear fire below them, but is unable to see
it. Lookout on Orleans Mtn, and is unable to see the fire anymore due to the
current inversion. Orleans Complex IC (Annand) made the call to disengage
the fire and to have all resources pulled off the mountain. Currently the
helicopter is shuttling people off the fire.
This is a classic "Cramer Fire" situation. Good call by the IC to get
those fire fighters off the mountain. When the inversion lifts, (which is
starting to happen now) we are expecting the fire to make major runs. The
microwave is starting to be affected. Orleans lost all long distance service
at 0930hrs, and local service is hit and miss. Currently we are not affected
at Oak Bottom Fire Station / Somes Bar. The only communication by telephone
Orleans has with Fortuna Dispatch right now is the one "tie-line". Radio and
repeaters are not affected at this time. So if you loose contact with me or
anyone else from Orleans / Somes Bar, you know that the microwave was over
run by the fire.
We are doing the best we can, but resources are stretched through-out the
state of California. We have pending resource orders and they are trying to
be filled ASAP. We have just become the State's number 2 priority because of
the resources and watershed that are threatened. I will keep you all
informed when I can, for as long as I can.
Hot List poster
Annand, a leader who made the right choice. Way to walk the walk. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Ab,
There's a reason why "firefighter" again tops the Harris poll of prestigious
jobs, and "member of Congress" didn't.
www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/
vfd cap'n
ps, If any of the 'shots got Burns on tape, I'll offer up some bandwidth to
put it on-line. |
| 7/27 |
Regarding AD pay,
How does the government get around paying overtime for over 8 hours per day
and/or over 40 hours per week for AD hires?
The AD Pay Plan states, " The salary rate shown for each classification is
the rate per hour to be paid for all the service required of the casual
hire. Premium compensation shall not be paid for service in excess of 8
hours per day or 40 hours per week or for night, Sunday, or holiday work (7
U.S.C. 2226)".
All 7 USC 2226 says is, "Notwithstanding any other provisions of law, the
Department is authorized on and after August 31, 1951, to employ or
otherwise contract with persons at regular rates of pay for necessary hours
of work for emergency forest fire fighting and pest control and for handling
of animals, including dairy cattle, without regard to Sundays, Federal
holidays, and the regular workweek".
So what are the key words in that bit of policy that somehow justifies
emergency workers being exempt from the Fair Labor Standards Act? "Regular
rates of pay"? "Regular workweek"?
Does anyone have any clearer information on this? Has it been questioned?
Legally challenged? The current AD rates might be more agreeable if overtime
rates were enforced. I respect NMAirBear's reasons for returning to the
fray, but the current pay scale just isn't high enough for me to make the
same decision.
SteveM |
| 7/27 |
Re Conrad Burns: What would one expect from a Senator who's previous job
before the
Senate was the Ag. Reporter on a Montana Television Network.
Toss the Bum out. He embarrasses Montana.
Pitch Pocket |
| 7/27 |
Fires on Klamath & Six Rivers: As the just-retired Supt of the Ukonom
handcrew and with thirty years of experience there, I would just like to
warn all of you that may be on your way there to work on the fires, to be
very heads up. There have been at least two years in the past five with
heavy snow breakage between the 2000 and the 4000 foot range. The fuels are
dry and heavy and anyone that has ever been in that country knows it's
steep, very few safety zones, lots of roll out.
Have good lookouts, know when the inversion is going to break. Remember
there is nothing out there worth one person.
Supt.
Thanks Supt. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Enquiring minds want to know...
What's the story with the Santa Fe IHC shut-down?
FB |
| 7/27 |
Since I wasn't involved in the fires that pushed Senator Burns' button, I
can only presume the senator had not had a pleasant time conversing with
some of his constituents about the fires, and the Hotshots were his first
target of opportunity to dump on.
Next to his bad manners and arrogance what I find appalling is his apparent
lack of knowledge of the wildland fire management, and how things work
during fire busts. If he represented a state with limited wildfire activity,
I could cut him some slack. However, as everyone in the fire community knows
all too well, Montana has been on top of the heap for fire activity for many
years, too often since 2000. It is incomprehensive to me that a US Senator
from the State of Montana, if the media reports are correct, has such a
limited understanding of wildland firefighting systems and processes. What
sent up a special red flag about his fire management knowledge was his
alleged remark that the fires were run out of NIFC.
If Burns is as ignorant of wildland fire protection as his comments
indicate, I wonder how many other western senators are at the same level of
knowledge? Now that is a scary question as fire folks try to get decision
makers to deal with basic fire management issues such as pay, employment,
training, benefits, safety, etc.
I would suggest firefighters not only counsel Senator Burns, but also
consider contacts with their own elected officials to make sure they
understand the fundamentals of how the fire business works.
I shall now take pleasure in preparing my own counsel to the good senator.
FiremarkFiremark glad to see you here offering your opinion. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Sonoma or Lake County California wildland fire, started early this
afternoon. Don't know any details yet I will let you know more when I get
it.
Retired L.A.V.E.
Yes, I still lurk about.Hi LAVE. Glad you're still lurking about.
That's a good bit of info for posting on the HotList Forum. There are
probably others who can fill you in. That page has been cooking with flaming
details. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Ab guffaw...
The AP has contacted Casey at the FWFSA regarding Senator Burns'
comments to the Augusta hot shots in the airport on their way home from
weeks of dirty, tiring fire duty in Montana.
<rant>
Why should Burns comment to hotshots except to say "THANK YOU VERY
MUCH"? What do hotshots have to do with the management-strategy-tactics of a
very large Montana fire? Fire Teams commanded by ICs do the professional
large-scale planning. Hotshots deal with their assigned piece of ground -
AND THEY DO IT VERY WELL. They're our much-needed "boots and Pulaski's on
the fire ground".
Military Analogy: It would be like the Senator Burns waylaying
some homeward-bound Green Berets, Rangers or Seals in an airport after their
long, wearing tour of war duty to tell them they should have found a
civilian who was not in their chain-of-command and taken orders from him or
her. I think not.
The old firefighter in me says, "A verbal blindside delivered by a
Senator (or anyone else who should know better) against some of our
own, deserves an inbox overflowing with the logical consequences..."
</rant>
haw haw haw... Ab. |
| 7/27 |
AB - Could you remind folks in R5 that the USFS Honor Guard is recruiting
new members?
Downloadable application is available on the San Bernardino NF FSWEB
http://fsweb.sanbernardino.r5.fs.fed.us/honorguard/join.shtml
(internal fs web)
Thanks!
JohnForest Service folks, sign up for the Honor Guard. We all need
your participation. It's a great service that the Honor Guard does. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Ab...... Didn't mean to tar all of Montana with the Senator's brush, not
my intention
at all......... just meant that this just may be a landmark, in more ways
than one,
after seeing Casey's post, to get the firefighter message out to 'real'
listeners.....
Firefox |
| 7/27 |
Ab:
How ironic; having a Senator named "Burns" criticizing fire crews. If
ranchers can handle the job ... fine with me. We'd be glad to have
our son home safely. (like most everyone).
Dave |
| 7/27 |
Regarding Montana Senator Conrad Burns:
Disgusting and disgraceful attack on brothers and sisters in the wildland
fire community. Montana will forever be etched in my mind by the acid
spewed by this politician..............
FirefoxMontana's got good folks, don't tar the state with the
Senator's tar brush. Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Dear Wildland Firefighting Community:
While I know all of you are extremely busy, the incident involving Senator
Burns and the Augusta IHC demands a full-scale response from everyone who
reads this Board.
It is frustrating that a Senator who in 1999 championed legislation to
eliminate the overtime pay cap for federal wildland firefighters would now
become so desperate and beholden to ranchers with deep pockets.
More aggravating is the typical response from the Agency...Mark Rey
contacting the ranchers but not giving our firefighters the time of day. You
all have a voice and now is the time to get some
serious use out of it. Especially those of you in Montana who are
constituents of the Senator.
We need to inundate the following offices with faxes, phone calls, emails
etc., demanding an apology and inviting these "leaders: to join our folks
for a week or so cutting line and other fine things you do.
If inclined to be heard, DO NOT USE GOV'T COMPUTERS, EMAIL
ADDRESSES, PHONES ETC.
To contact the staff contact in Senator Burns' DC office familiar with
wildland firefighter issues, email:
heather_stefanik@burns.senate.gov (there is a underscore between heather
& stefanik). The phone number is 202-224-2644 or 1-800-344-1513. The fax #
is 202-224-8594.
To contact Mark Rey, Undersecretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and
the Environment: PH 202-720-7173 Fax: 202-720-0632
To contact Dale Bosworth, Chief of the Forest Service: Fax: 202-205-1785
To contact Tom Harbour, FS Fire & Aviation Director: PH: 202-205-1483 or
email at tharbour@fs.fed.us.
This outpouring of support for our Brothers & Sisters from the Augusta IHC
should be palpable across this country.
For further information or questions, please contact me directly at
cjudd@fwfsa.org or 208-775-4577.
Thanks...and be vocal.
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA |
| 7/27 |
Dear Augusta Hotshots,
As a citizen of the state of Montana, I would like to offer my regrets for
your recent unfortunate encounter with our official state moron, Conrad
Burns. We usually keep him on a leash out back, but every now and then he
slips his collar and rampages across the countryside, abusing whomever he
meets.
While it may seem to you that Conrad is senile and ready for a rubber room,
I assure you that he has been spouting this sort of insane gibberish for
many years. It usually seems to peak just before elections.
Fortunately, Conrad has soiled himself beyond redemption for the upcoming
election, as he holds the dubious distinction of being the largest
congressional recipient of contributions from convicted felon/lobbyist Jack
Abramoff. Conrad’s turn in court will come soon, maybe then we can get him a
real room with bars and locks so we can keep better control of him.
I speak for most Montanans when I say that we are grateful for the hard work
and the risks you took to help suppress fires in our state, and we regret
that you had to endure this encounter with our state moron. Please don’t
hold this against all Montanans; I’m sure you’ll receive better treatment
from Senator Tester if you visit our state next year.
Misery WhipHaw haw, there have been mutterings here from the office
walls... <snort> "Not the first time Burns has made an a$$ of
himself." |
| 7/27 |
AD's: Everything, Everybody in Short Supply ....
Engine and Crew positions and all overhead positions out there are now in
very short supply and many, many UTFs are happening. ADs: Many of us are
sitting this one out because it just does not pay that well. I certainly
have been one. We will all reckon back to this Summer when the Winter Games
resume in Boise towards re-establishing equitable AD pay and benefit rates.
Now, that having been said, let's not be part of the upcoming (upon us right
now actually) firefighter safety problem by not making our vast experience
and expertise available while America burns. We all need to make a
difference by being there to enhance the effort and we also need to be
talkative about our cause which is to receive the compensation appropriate
for the work being done. Let's make a difference in both the enhancement of
firefighter safety and in the rights of ADs to be properly compensated.
I am getting back out there tomorrow with the number one thought of
providing my many years of experience towards keeping folks on the ground
safe.
NMAirBear |
| 7/27 |
Re Mellie's message: They have been through a CISD and I am sure there
will be more to follow. One of the crewmembers assured me that they were all
doing an excellent job of communicating with one another and have the
greatest group of shoulders (the entire crew) to lean on. Sometimes there is
nothing more effective than your best friend who you work side by side with
and who was "there". There is an amazing network of Eldorado NF folks
ranging from the Forest Supervisor down to first year firefighters helping
all of these guys and their families with whatever they need.
Thanks for your concern. |
| 7/27 |
Regarding Burns criticizes firefighters, says they didn't heed ranchers
http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/07/27/news/local/45-burns.txt
I think it is vital that as many of us read this article as possible, so I
am posting the text here as well. This is not atypical of what many other
senators and congressmen/people think and feel. And the best form of defense
for us is education, contact, and the almighty vote.
Is this someone who works to make the lives of firefighters better? Or
worse? Safer? Does he work to foster better relations with the public and
landowners by researching historical data? Or is he counterproductive to the
efforts of the different agencies to establish good communications and
working relationships?
I would venture to guess that Senator Burns has spent little or no time
educating himself on the basic aspects of wildland fire and its related
workforce. But I could be wrong...
Here's the text of the above article:
Published on Thursday, July 27, 2006.
Last modified on 7/27/2006 at 12:15 am
Burns criticizes firefighters, says they didn't heed ranchers
By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau
HELENA - Republican Sen. Conrad Burns chastised a group of firefighters
over the weekend for doing a "poor job" dousing a 92,000-acre blaze near
Billings, a state report shows.
Burns and the firefighters - members of the Augusta Hot Shots from the
George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in Virginia -were at
Billings Logan International Airport awaiting flights, according to
Burns and Forest Service representatives.
Burns approached the firefighters and told them they had "done a poor
job" and "should have listened to the ranchers," according to a report
prepared by Paula Rosenthal, a state Department of Natural Resources and
Conservation employee who was sent to the airport to speak with the
senator.
Rosenthal wrote in her report that she received word of an "altercation"
between Burns and the Hot Shot crew. The crew had been in Montana
working on the Bundy Railroad fire near Worden.
The 92,000-acre timber, grass and sagebrush fire was contained on July
19, and the 368 people who came to fight it began dispersing a few days
later.
Burns had been in Billings to commemorate the new interpretive center at
Pompeys Pillar, the sandstone bluff near the Yellowstone River where
explorer William Clark scratched his signature while on the Lewis and
Clark Expedition.
Burns had also met with local ranchers affected by the blaze.
Matt Mackowiak, a Burns spokesman, said he didn't think Burns met with
any of the fire bosses handling the fire.
By the time Rosenthal reached the airport, the interaction had ended.
Burns told her he was concerned that fires are run out of the National
Interagency Fire Center, in Boise, Idaho, which he called "ridiculous."
"The government needs to listen to these ranchers," the report quotes
Burns as saying.
Mary Sexton, director of the state Department of Natural Resources and
Conservation, said in an interview that the National Interagency Fire
Center does not run individual fires but is the national hub for fire
information and available resources. Beneath the Boise center are
several regional dispatch centers, including one for the northern Rocky
Mountain area in Missoula. Individual fires are managed by the fire
bosses on the ground, Sexton said.
Burns also said he was concerned that fire bosses don't let ranchers
fight fire on their own land. Rosenthal wrote in her report that she
told the senator that "private citizens were integral to our success, as
were (volunteer fire departments), county governments" and others.
Sexton said fire teams - the groups of national and local fire experts
who come to manage and fight large fires - cannot tell private
landowners what to do. They cannot force them to evacuate or prevent
them from fighting fire on their own land. However, Sexton said fire
bosses prefer to know where all people working on a fire are - including
landowners - and may ask landowners not to help in the interest of
safety.
Burns also said he had heard from one rancher that fire crews on the
Bundy Railroad fire put a strip of fire retardant on the edge of Bureau
of Land Management federal land, implying the fire crews were more
interested in protecting public land than private.
"The toughest part of the conversation was the point where the senator
was critical of a firefighter sitting across from us in the gate area,"
Rosenthal's report reads. "I offered to the senator that our
firefighters make around $8 to $12 an hour and time-and-a-half for
overtime. He seemed a bit surprised that it wasn't higher."
Rosenthal's report said she would take Burns' concerns back to agency
officials, and Burns thanked her for taking the time to listen to him.
Dan Jerome, a spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service in the agency's
Washington, D.C., office, said the agency has heard from Burns regarding
his concerns.
"Essentially, the senator had some issues with a fire and we heard
those," Jerome said. "He talked to the crew about those. Generally, the
place to talk about them is with the Forest Service. Meanwhile, the crew
is out fighting fire, and we're proud of the work they do."
Jerome said the agency is working on addressing Burns' concerns.
Mackowiak said Burns has been hearing from Montanans affected by
wildfire for weeks.
"As a result, he very responsibly reaches out to policymakers in
Washington to make sure that all coordination is being done in the best
and most reasonable manner," he said.
Burns talked to Undersecretary of Agriculture Mark Rey about his
concerns, Mackowiak said, and Rey has since personally called the
ranchers with whom Burns spoke. The Forest Service is part of the U.S.
Department of Agriculture.
Burns wants to make sure that fire policy is "adequate and adaptive,"
Mackowiak said, and the senator is pushing for emergency assistance for
ranchers and landowners affected by the blazes.
Copyright © The Billings Gazette, a division of Lee Enterprises.
S
Disclaimer: We believe this to be 'Fair Use' of the above copyrighted
material for educational and discussion purposes and to advance awareness
and understanding of issues relating to firefighter safety, civil rights,
economics, individual rights, liberty, etc. 'Fair Use' of any such
copyrighted material is provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.
. For more information, please see:
www.law.cornell.edu Ab. |
| 7/27 |
Eldorado Hotshots: To all of those who hear bits and pieces, please be
careful not to spread rumors. I work with them and have first hand knowledge
of the incident. As you can imagine the whole crew as well as co-workers,
friends and family are in the middle of a very emotional ordeal right now,
not only because of the incident but also the treatment afterwards ie;
medi-vac/hospital (details will be given later). Hear-say can only make
things worse.
Keep them on your minds and in your hearts.
ABO |
| 7/27 |
The two hotshots continue to do well. Both of their moms are at the Las
Vegas burn center with them. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation flew in the
one mom from the midwest.
A great gal, Cathy Risdon from the Clark Co Fire Dept employee assistance
program has arranged places for the moms to stay in Las Vegas. (Clark Co is
the county Las Vegas is in.) It's so great to have the structure
firefighters support teams helping the moms and working with our wildland
supporters at the Foundation. Wildland or structure, vollie, state, county
or fed, we have a remarkable community of firefighters!
One of the two shots is doing so well he may be released in the next day
or two. The second one will need longer treatment. I hope the crew is
getting critical incident stress debriefing, they must be, and it's
important for those who were not too affected to be present so their fellow
firefighters can work through and integrate the incident. I have my fingers
crossed for all those guys.
For everyone following the columns in the northern part of California,
here's a good link:
Fire Information Summary
Mellie |
| 7/27 |
Those fighting fire in NorCal: Fire behavior has been extreme at times
over the last days with the thunderclouds overhead. Be safe. Do not
compromise LCES. Resources are very short. Many of the lightning fires
in the wilderness areas and surrounding forests are likely to burn longer
term since they're not being picked up on IA or EA due to fuel, terrain and
resources. We're dealing with fuel and topography driven fires, folks, a
number of which will go until the rains come if they're not picked up soon.
Mellie, we may get one of your famous hugs soon. Fire up the huggin' arm
and your great laugh.
NorCal Tom. |
| 7/27 |
Re: El Dorado Hot Shot incident Fire crews I work with were on the scene
about 40 yards below the hot shots and witnessed the whole ordeal.
(As "actual" visuals may be lost in the final reports, this is the best view
I can give)
A dozer line was established. The "new" type 2 team was in place. The order
was given to burn it out and thus, the fire would be out. Local fire
fighters on the scene noticed a thundercloud in the sky. In this area, a
single thundercloud designates high erratic winds (up to 45 mph) with "dust
devils" in normal conditions.
The burn proceeded. One of the areas infamous "dust devils" hit the fire.
Eye reports say this was a "huge" whirlwind. (I have seen them up to an acre
in width, my interpretation would be a whirlwind covering 1/2 to one
acre..........this is not confirmed as I had other questions for the crew
when I talked to them.)
Some of the hotshots ran in one direction on the dozer line, around into the
safe black, and back to safety. Other crew members ran toward my crews'
engines on the dozer line. The actual words were "they were 'entrapped'
"(not over run). They said it happened fast - no time for shelter
deployment.
I believe that in the final report "local weather influences" should be
discussed. Many times in my career, I have gained more knowledge on weather
from the locals before entering a fire, than generic reports can accurately
interpret for a whole district.
"Tuffy" |
| 7/27 |
Montana Senator Conrad Burns has a mouthful of to say about the work of
wildland firefighters who fought the large fires in Eastern Montana
recently, so much he said it to their faces as an Eastern area IHC was
traveling home after assignment --
Original Ab found a good link-->
http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/07/27/news/local/45-burns.txt
Those opposed to Burns in this November's election and in support of his
opponent, Democrat John Tester, have been sporting "Fire Burns! 2006" bumper
stickers on their vehicles for awhile now ... those words seem a bit more
poignant now.
More coverage on the Eastern Montana wildfires:
www.billingsgazette.net/specialreport/?s/2006fires
- Sue |
| 7/27 |
re: burnover on the New York Peak Fire.
Why is it not listed on the ICS-209 or ITD report for 7/25 or 7/26? The only
thing mentioned is this:
“34: Significant events today (closures, evacuations, significant progress
made, etc.):
Erratic fire behavior last evening caused fire to cross control line and
spread rapidly to south.”
wondering |
| 7/26 |
Ab
As a former NPS director was being mentioned on "They Said" it reminded me
that Fran Mainella announced her Resignation on the morning report today
(7/26). I am sure the editors will not mind if you so choose to quote it. It
is below.
My best wishes and prayers for the members of the Eldorado Hotshots injured
in the burn over. My prayers are with those crewmembers and all FF's who
suffer burns.
Someone said the other day "what is a minor burn"; that is a burn that
happens to someone you don't know or care about; or possibly the one you get
at home roasting steaks after too many "AMBER LIBATIONS".
I remember, as a child, my father used to encourage me to go the ground
floor hospital room window of a kid about my age who had been horribly
burned playing with a burning leaf pile. He wanted me to talk to him and
just keep him occupied for a while. Dad was the Chef Engineer at the
hospital and he frequently had to change the heat lamps and make adjustments
to the equipment. This was the mid 50's. I also dated a burn center nurse
many years later. I know what burn injuries are; treatment is so painful.
Victims face a long uphill path but as you indicated the hotshots have no
apparent airway damage the recovery should be a little easier. Hopefully, if
they so choose, they will be back on the line in due course.
God bless and be safe out there.
RJM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Director/Deputy Directors
Director Mainella Announces Resignation
July 26, 2006
Dear Employees,
Serving as National Park Service Director has been the most rewarding
experience of my life. What has made this experience so rewarding was the
chance to work with an amazing group of professional employees in carrying
out the mission of the National Park Service. I want to take this
opportunity to thank you for allowing me to serve with you. You, the work
that you do, and your complete dedication to the stewardship and enjoyment
of the parks have made me proud to be a part of the everlasting legacy of
the National Park Service.
But now, I have had to make a difficult decision, and I have decided to
resign as your director to spend more time with my family, especially my
parents and in-laws who have been having health issues. I will, however,
continue to work with you for the next few months, working to finalize
Management Policies, celebrate the NPS’s 90th anniversary, and finish
several key projects.
As I wrote to the President, and find very important to say to all of you
also, is that it has been a privilege to be entrusted with leading the
National Park Service in preserving and protecting America’s national parks—
some of the most beautiful lands, most significant sites and most treasured
heritage of the nation. Our work has been based on the conviction that
preservation of the parks and their enjoyment by present and future
generations is one of the greatest of American undertakings.
Thank you for always stepping up to the plate doing the most you can with
limited resources and extremely complex challenges.
As the National Park Service moves forward toward its 100th birthday, know
that I will be there with you, assisting in any way that I can. National
parks represent the soul of America and a gift to the world. Remember, you,
the employees of the National Park Service, are its best asset!
With my best regards and deep personal respect and appreciation,
Fran P. Mainella |
| 7/26 |
I am a Director on the Douglas City (Trinity County, Ca.) Community Services
District Board. We oversee our volunteer fire dept, one of about thirteen in
the county. We have about 26 personnel right now, about half of whom can be
considered "active". Our chief is also a volunteer, and is in poor health
lately.
Our problem, as with so many other volunteer fire departments, is with
keeping up on current regulations and trainings to keep our people safe. Our
chief wants to "retire", step down to give him time to deal with his health
issues. We have no one in the dept. who is able to or interested in assuming
the responsibilities. What we need most is someone with firefighting and/or
administrative experience who wants to retire to a beautiful area and
wouldn't mind being involved in a small, laid-back community.
I guess where I'm headed is, how do we, and where do we, go about
advertising and promoting ourselves and our need to interested people? Are
there publications, websites, organizations, etc. that we could contact? Our
entire county has a population of about 13,000, and there aren't a lot of
qualified people just waiting around! Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated.
You may notice I've sent this e-mail to another person; that is the
Chairman of our District Board. I look forward to your response.
Thanks,
Eric Blomberg
Eric, I know your community and your fire department. Very nice spot,
along Hwy 299 30-40 min west of Redding. Readers, anyone out there looking
for a great place to retire, this is it.
I don't have any answers for you Eric, but maybe some of our readers
will have ideas. Ab. |
| 7/26 |
>From Firescribe: the Las Vegas Sun
"Six firefighters injured in wildfire northwest of Winnemucca" .
www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2006/jul/26/072610035.html
RENO, Nev. (AP) - Six firefighters have been injured battling a
wildfire northwest of Winnemucca, the Bureau of Land Management said
Wednesday.
Three of the six were flown to Humboldt General Hospital in
Winnemucca. Two then were flown to the burn center at University Medical
Center in Las Vegas. Another was treated and released.
The other three firefighters were driven to the hospital in
Winnemucca, treated and released after the incident Tuesday afternoon.
All six were members of the Eldorado National Forest hotshot crew
based near Placerville, Calif.
A federal interagency serious accident investigation team was
scheduled to arrive in Winnemucca on Wednesday.
The New York Peak fire has burned some 6,000 acres of brush and trees
65 miles northwest of Winnemucca, one of the largest fires in the state.
<etc>
The WFF is flying the mom of one of the hotshots to Las Vegas and has
made arrangements for her hotel. Burk is on it.
Three hotshots had minor burns and were treated in camp and then
driven to the hospital, treated and released. Of the other three who were
flown, one was treated and released from the hospital in Winnemucca; two
were transported to the Las Vegas burn center. They have
second and first degree burns over 50% of their bodies but no airway
involvement (that is, no inhalation burns - very good news). We expect the
24 hour Report to be out in a timely manner. As you know it will have
bare-bones info. The 72 Hour Report should provide more details. We're
periodically briefed and when we are, we'll post it here.
For more info, see the release below. It just came in. Ab. |
| 7/26 |
FOR RELEASE: July 26, 2006, 10:30 a.m.
CONTACT: Richard H. Brown, 775-861-6480, or Jamie Thompson, 775-623-1541
Six California firefighters injured in burnover
Six wildland firefighters from an Eldorado National Forest hotshot crew
were injured late Tuesday afternoon during a wildland fire burnover. The
crew was assigned to the New York Peak Fire northwest of Winnemucca,
Nevada, when the burnover occurred at approximately 5 p.m.
Three of the injured firefighters were flown by helicopter from the
incident to the Humboldt General Hospital in Winnemucca. Two of these
firefighters were subsequently flown by fixed wing aircraft to the Lion’s
Burn Care Center at the University of Nevada Las Vegas. The third injured
firefighter was treated and released from the hospital in Winnemucca. The
remaining three injured firefighters were driven to the hospital in
Winnemucca, where they were treated and released.
The Eldorado National Forest is located near Placerville, California.
A federal interagency serious accident investigation team is scheduled to
arrive in Winnemucca Wednesday afternoon to conduct a review of the
incident. “Whenever injuries such as these occur during firefighting
operations, a top priority is to learn everything we can about them so that
we can work to prevent similar incidents from happening again,” said BLM
Nevada State Fire Management Officer Rex McKnight.
According to preliminary reports, the burnover occurred during burnout
operations. The fire was started by lightning at approximately 6:25 p.m. on
Monday. The New York Peak Fire was reassigned to the Jim Thomas Type 2
Incident Management Team at 10 p.m. Tuesday.
The fire is burning at the south end of the Pine Forest Range in juniper,
mountain mahogany, sagebrush and cheatgrass 65 miles northwest of
Winnemucca, and has exhibited extreme fire conditions in rough terrain. The
fire is located in a wilderness study area with limited vehicle access.
There are 109 firefighters are assigned to the fire.
The crew has been taken off the fire pending investigation into the
incident. Preliminary reports indicate that more than 6,000 acres have been
burned by the New York Peak Fire. Containment figures are unavailable at
this time.
BDFThanks. Ab. |
| 7/26 |
The announcements are open for Advanced Academy crew bosses, staff
and instructors and can be found at
www.wfap.net/recruitment.html#staff. We will fly the Basic
announcements at a later date, due to potential curriculum changes. We
will run all three advanced academies at the same time, from January 14 to
February 9, 2007. Preference for crew bosses will be first given to the
previous crew bosses that helped in basic academies, then to the assistant
crew bosses who helped. All interested parties are encouraged to apply,
even if you have not participated in the academies before. Remember, there
are no assistant crew bosses at the advanced academies.
For formal
instructional cadres, we have three slots open for S-234
and three for S-290. We will also solicit interest in the “Third
Instructor” or liaison positions to assist MCS in L-380, Fireline
Leadership. Please use the instructor application for 3rds.
Call Scott Whitmire at 916-640-1061 or 916-717-6615 (cell) for info.
For BLM call Rick Roach at 916-640-1080 or 916-997-6655 (cell).
Please call or submit an application even if you do not know your
training/work schedules for the winter. We can adjust scheduling on our
end.
This is one of the best venues for learning and enhancing leadership
and instructional skills. The academies also offer a golden opportunity to
positively influence our new career fire employees.
Scott Whitmire
Assistant Coordinator
National Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program |
| 7/26 |
Ab re the New and Improved
CA Fires '06
page:
Thanks for the new look. Like it.
RJM |
| 7/26 |
Need USFS red card refresher course
I passed my pack test in May but for a number of reasons I missed out on the
required refresher course hours needed to re-up my red card. I know this is
a long shot with fire season upon us, but is anyone in the Angeles, San
Bernardino, or Cleveland NF planning a session this summer I can tap into?
jimhart |
| 7/26 |
In response to a couple of queries... The Eldorado Hotshots have
been involved in a burnover on New York Peak fire, NW of Winnemucca Nevada.
Three were hospitalized. One was treated and released. Assessments of two
others were that they have 2nd degree burns over 35 % of their bodies. They
were transported to Las Vegas for treatment.
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is apprised of the situation and
is standing by to help with arrangements and costs if help is necessary.
As more information becomes available, we'll let you know.
My thoughts and prayers for those involved.
Please be safe out there. This is a dangerous job.
Ab. |
| 7/26 |
An interesting article in the New York Times by Roger Kennedy, former
Director of the National Park Service about homes in the WUI.
Houses built to burn
www.nytimes.com
For anyone interested in some "heavy lifting" reading this summer (as
time and the fires allow), check out Kennedy's new book "Wildfire and
Americans: how to Save Lives, Property and Your Tax Dollars".
| |