Balls Canyon Review: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/balls-canyon/balls-cyn-review.htm

Ab.

Your original post had me going for a minute this morning, trying
to figure out what kind of a fire tool you were talking about "heroes"
dragging around and stepping on -- before Ab changed it.

I think I need POSH training if that's where you learn this stuff!

But maybe I got that wrong. I think POSH must teach you that you can
look at, notice and even admire anything you want as long as you
keep your lip buttoned about it.

Mellie <cracking up> <rolling on floor>
¡¡only in California!!

The Balls Canyon report is now posted on the Lessons Learned Center Web site. The report itself is large:
www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Balls_Canyon_Near_Miss_062706_Final_Report.pdf (2.2mb, large pdf file)

Link from the home page of the Lessons Learned Center. Bookmark this site. It's excellent: 
www.wildfirelessons.net/Home.aspx 

Peer Review Report of the Balls Canyon Near Miss June 27, 2006 (2.2 MB PDF posted 083006) This landmark document includes the Peer Review Intent & Purpose, the Incident Story, the Reasons "The Story" unfolded the way it did, and the Lessons Learned Relative to Principle-Based Decision-Making. Lessons derived come from the incident participants as well as the subject matter experts assigned to the peer review team. The emphasis is clearly on organizational learning.

Senator Burns: Terrorists Drive Taxis By Day and Kill By Night
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/31/burns.terrorism.ap/index.html

Nicole

Just got back from the tripod complex on the Loomis Forest side and let me just say WOW I saw some very interesting fire behavior and tactics. There were about 5 of my 14 days where we were moved to a safe area or Safety Zones due to Fire Behavior the amount of dead spruce is amazing and inter-mixed with lodgepole in the 80-160 years old range spotting was something you could hardly keep up with and the night time thermal belts made the fire very active from 1900-0400, so as you would start day shift there would be new spots or areas that completely burned. On 1 day the Calif. Team made a wise decision and pulled off the whole branch due to low RH's 8-10% and Very active crown runs that ran several miles. As I left Tuesday morning the objectives changed to include keeping the fire south of Canada which I believe was around 15 miles to the north with a continuous fuel bed.

Things that I saw as problem was a lack of overhead and crews, they were being ordered just not getting filled, I must say we did good with what we had and everybody watched out for everybody else. Looking at some post here it is true we had only one agency type 3 engine from R6 but we also had some contractors that were well rounded hard working FF's.

Last but not Least my first day in briefing I had some fella walk up and say "I am with you Mate." I looked at him and realized I was going to get the chance to fight fire with an Aussie, something I will always remember. He was dialed in on weather and maps and a little nervous of the fuel type, sometimes asking very true questions regarding our tactic and strategies from a National standpoint. I am sure the visitors when they leave from Boise (Washington West) will fill in our managers on some ideas/concerns.

Well gotta go get my boat ready for the weekend. P.S. enjoy the pics of the fire running north

Signed: Hit em Hard and Keep em Small!

Pics on Fire 29 photo page. Ab.

http://firemapper.sc.egov.usda.gov/recent3.php

NOAA Fire detection and smoke. Lots in ID, MT, WA as well as in northern CA.

http://www.firedetect.noaa.gov/viewer.htm

Click to enlarge.

JG

Re: Canadian firefighters. There was an article floating around this
spring about B.C. firefighters Not using fire shelters anymore. I was
wondering if you saw that, I've been trying to hunt it down.
Also - thought this might interest you and others...

I had the pleasure of working in Canada a couple summers ago and I have
to say that their organization is fantastic, from sector boss to type III
Firefighters. This is a bit lengthy but you all might find their physical
standards impressive. I took the Type I test and it is NOT easy. By the
time you get to the hose drag portion of it, you're pretty darn tired. Of
the thirty people that took it, only three of us passed. I have to add
that the other 27 were not slouches by any means.

*Minimum physical fitness requirements consists of the following
(20 min rest is allowed between phases)

Shuttle Run: Complete a minimum of ninety 66ft runs back and forth, or
1800m in total (5,905ft) at predetermined beeps starting at 8.2 seconds per
run and progressing faster throughout the remainder of the runs. (There
are lines at 0ft. and 66ft. When the beep sounds you run to the line, when
it sounds again you run back to the other line. The beeps get faster and
faster. When you fail to cross a line at the beep you're out. If you
don't complete the 90 sprints, you fail, go home and find another job.)

Upright Row: In a standing position, back against the wall, knees slightly
bent, and hands placed shoulder width apart on the bar, lift a 51lb barbell
to chest height. A metronome will be set at 40 beats per minute or 20
lifts per minute. To pass - 18 repetitions in one minute. (This was the
easiest test folks)

Pump/Hose/Carry/Drag: Must be completed in Under 4 min!
Must wear; hard hat, coveralls and work boots. The time starts when the
pump is placed on the ground. (This is a Mark III - 65lbs) Start by
carrying the pump without stopping, 150 meters out and back (about 500ft).
Then pick up four 100ft lengths of 1.5" hose (rolled) weighing 68lb. Sling
over the shoulders and carry a distance of 300m (about 980ft) out and back
twice. Upon completion of above, pick up a charged length of hose and drag
it 50m (164ft) out and back twice for a total of 200m. Hose lengths must
be pulled over the shoulder with one hand and grasped behind the back with
opposite hand to pass this test. (This is where people dropped like flies,
only 3 minutes and 59 seconds to do all of it, they should add: '/barf' at
the end of the title)

Type I Firefighters - Rappel Have to pass All of the above
Type I Firefighters - Have to pass the pack test (same as ours for
arduous), the Upright Row and the Pump/Hose/Carry/Drag
Type II Contract Firefighters - Have to pass the moderate pack test, the
Upright Row and the Pump/Hose/Carry/Drag
Type III Emergency Firefighters - Have to pass the moderate pack test

-Dozershot

It is normal for one of the more experienced people to be "scouting" ahead. They have a radio with them, and usually have a set time, or location, to meet up with the crew or another leader in the crew. They do this to look for hazards, spot fires, and the best place to lay the line.

Most times this is done solo in order to allow the fire fighting/line digging to go as fast as possible.

The why, is safety. There has to be someone who knows where to go, and what is going on around the crew. There are always lookouts, but they can't usually see where the best place to lay in line is. Normally the scout/supervisor is fairly close to the crew. Maybe a little farther than yelling distance, but far enough out that if they run into a cliff, or a swamp, they can re-route the line digging before the crew gets there.

Hope this helps more than confuses :D

Excellent article. Ab.

Thanks for writing in vnc capt'n. We wish you the best recovery with no long-term effects. This is an important health issue for firefighters, as you well know, and we'd appreciate it if you'd keep us informed.

Readers, skip on down the page to 8/11 or click here for more on Valley Fever. Check also comments from Been There on 8/9 and this website: www.vfce.arizona.edu/  Ab.

24 Hour Report
2500 Fire – Burns Interagency Fire Zone

At 1250 hours, 23 August 2006, a type 6 engine owned by the
Fields-Andrews Fire Protection Association (FA #4) experienced mechanical failure. This breakdown appeared to be a ruptured fuel line.

Engine FA #4 was the third engine in a routine flanking action, following BLM engine and a contract engine. Fuels were light, flame length and fire movement was moderate.

Engine FA #4 operator stated he was in unburned fuel, with black (no visible flame or ignition source) along the left hand side of the vehicle.

He stated that he smelled plastic or rubber burning, stopped his engine and looked under the vehicle, to see “a dripping fire” centered directly underneath the engine. He immediately took initial action on the fire underneath the vehicle, but had to retreat on foot to the black as the undercarriage became involved. The entire vehicle then caught on fire, and this fire then spread back to the black on the left and unburned fuel to the right and ahead.

Eyewitness was the Incident Commander, who was following FA#4, approximately 20 yards behind. She stated that she saw a “fireball” originate underneath FA #4. She immediately pulled into the black and began to assist. The rapid involvement of the vehicle precluded further suppression action, and both the operator and IC retreated to their safe zone in the black.

Summary:
Result: Total destruction of Engine ($15,500 estimated)
Make/Model: 1988 Ford 350 Diesel w/ Standard BLM-Type pump
Safety: No injuries due to strict adherence to SOP, prior to, during and post- event, by operator and IC
Probable Cause: Mechanical failure (ruptured fuel line)
Vehicle Ignition Source: Unknown, either mechanical or hidden ember

Michael K. Williams
SOF -2
Burns Interagency Fire Zone

Someone's interested in your flame photo.
Send me an email. I can't find yours.

Ab.

From: NWCG Safety and Health Working Team
Date: August 28, 2006
Subject: Safety Advisory: Burnovers

In recent weeks, wildland firefighters have been involved in burnovers in a variety of fuel types in different geographic areas. These burnovers have resulted in one fatality, several serious burn injuries, and the damage or destruction of firefighting equipment. In some cases, firefighters deployed fire shelters; in others, they did not have time to deploy. It is time for us to take a serious look at the situation in which we find ourselves and ask some questions: why is this occurring, and how can we stop it?

The burnovers experienced in the United States in the past month have occurred in grass, brush and timber fuel types. They have involved different types of firefighters from different agencies with varying levels of experience, including some people who were highly trained and experienced. The following types of resources have recently experienced burnovers:

• Fire Use Module
• Engine crew
• Dozer operator
• Hotshot crew
• Line overhead

In most cases, investigations of burnovers are ongoing. We do not yet know with certainty all of the contributing and causal factors of these accidents. From what we do know, however, some common denominators seem to be emerging. Although all were not present in all cases, they seem to be common to most recent accidents. These include:

• Initial attack or Type 3 fires
• Sudden, unexpected changes in fire behavior, usually caused by wind
• Hottest, driest part of the burning period
• Approaching a fire to engage it for the first time
• Poor communications or confusing instructions
• Lack of situational awareness
• Extreme fire behavior and weather conditions were forecast for the area in which the burnovers occurred

Although conditions commonly contributing to serious accidents are ever-present, if there was ever a time for “heads up” firefighting, that time is now. Firefighters and managers need to remain cognizant of this and devote exhaustive efforts to ensure safety of the public and firefighters. We have been at Preparedness Level 5 nationally since July 28. Resources from all geographic areas and from other countries are engaged in wildland fire suppression across the United States. As the fire season progresses, firefighters are experiencing long-term fatigue, injuries, illness and stress that can seriously interfere with safe and effective firefighting.

Over-aggressiveness in tactics and strategies can lead to tactical failure and injured firefighters; risk aversion can create some of the same hazards. Firefighters, and especially leaders of firefighters, must balance the risk of operations against the potential gain and act accordingly. At all times, entrapment avoidance should be first and foremost in the minds of firefighters:

• Build line from a solid anchor point.
• Practice LCES.
• Expect the worst! Be prepared for weather changes and extreme fire behavior.
• Maintain situational awareness; recognize when you don’t have it and take steps to re-acquire it.
• Don’t engage if you haven’t established communications or if your instructions are unclear.
• Disengage if you lose communications.

Study your Incident Response Pocket Guide. It contains a great deal of information designed to keep firefighters alive. You are responsible for your safety. Don’t become a statistic.

PS Here is a link for a course that should qualify for IFPM. December 18 -22, 2006. 5 Units for employees needing to qualify for the 401 series. http://continuing-ed.calpoly.edu/wfsi.html

It has been a while for an update.

Jesse was released as an outpatient last week from the Lion's Burn
Unit at the University Medical Center in Las Vegas. Excellent news!
He will be getting continued treatment from the burn unit in San
Pablo, Ca, which is close to his home in Livermore. He is doing well
with his recovery and healing.

Jeff continues to improve and at his last appointment in Louisville he was
told he didn't need to return for another 2 weeks. He is building his
endurance by trying to walk as much as he can every day.

Kevin is back to full duty and with the crew. They are currently on
assignment in Wyoming.

The fellas and their families just received some packages from the
Sacramento Kings. A big thank you to Karen Robinson-Salley and the
whole Sacramento Kings organization for their support.

Once again, thanks to Vicki Minor and her staff at the Wildland
Firefighter Foundation for everything they have done. Please visit their
website and check out the membership for the 52 club. They need
our continued support.

Please pass around, and thank you everyone for your continued support. The
Eldorado Hotshots appreciate it.
More to come...

Mike Sandoval
Acting Battalion Chief - Pacific Ranger District

Thanks for the update, Sandy. Continued thoughts and prayers for all and especially for Jesse's and Jeff's speedy healing. Our best to their families as well. This is a very difficult situation for everyone involved, especially the family  caregivers. Ab.

Spin it anyway you want... AD fallers we hire do not look to us for full time employment; they are gainfully employed by the timber industry. Workers Comp rates are low because our accident rates are low. Spin a web of words and it still doesn't change the facts. We hire Fallers at industrial AD wage rates (in most cases the rate is the same as they make falling timber for the company they work for). AD fallers are still a great local resource and I hope they continue to resist any organizational attempt.

I think your Blossom story is another spin but in fairness, I will check out the events and learn the facts.

Point of clarification... I didn't blame "contract" fallers for any problems on the Hood. Frankly I'm not crafty enough with my words to do this and besides I blame the agencies that perpetuate the use of "contract fallers" through their hiring practices.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the overhead expense of running the Professional Fallers Program/contract fallers/falling module. I'm curious ... how much overhead expense is being held back from the fallers?

Last thing... my posts represent my personal opinions. The fact that you know which agency I work for doesn't bother me but the obvious displeasure with our agency comes through your posts as an attack on the agency... just to be clear I have not stated agency opinions... so rebuttals should stay focused on me as the poster and on the subject discussed. If you want to post trash about my agency please do it in a separate post so you can vent on all of the subjects that might be binding your drawers. All I ask is that you be specific and keep the focus on issues and not the person. Calling a faller or group of fallers bafoons (buffoons) should be saved for more intimate conversations where we can add ICs, DIVS and the food unit leader to the list. Name calling doesn't add value to the conversation at hand.

For the fallers that might read these posts

You can tell there is a disagreement between two posters about how to hire and compensate fallers that are used on the fire lines. Speaking for myself and I hope the other poster agrees... there is no argument or disagreement with the need for fallers or for the safety value of the hazardous work you provide each season. Snags and green trees present a risk to all fire fighters on the fire line. Your skills allow us to mitigate these tree hazards and I appreciate your hard work and the efforts made to our common goals and objective to suppress all fires safely.

Oliver...be safe

Thanks for the thanks. Glad you and your family are OK and can rebuild. Ab.

Here's a good issue of Fire Management Today
www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmt62-4.pdf
on the Dude Fire and reconstruction of it for learning
purposes through a "Staff Ride". On a "Staff Ride"
you go back and retrace who did what and when
they did it to learn lessons from it.

Maybe other readers have links they've found helpful.

AL

Anyone who works or did work for the federal government or a state government knows that policy is the mandate from the people we represent and policy defines what we do. I for one want to THANK Lobotomy for laying out that beginning point every time it is necessary.

If you want to discuss ways that policy does not make sense or efforts we can make to change policy, that's another story, but policy is the starting place. We live in a democracy and it works because of law and policies that define our jobs.

NorCal Tom

Where can I get the particulars on the Dude Fire which took
place in Arizona in I believe 1988.

Thanks,
Chris

Anyone walking off of the fireline after they have agreed to take an assignment to fight fire is a bafoon. If you are offended by that term, so be it.

Taking a cut to organize fallers? Perhaps you need to take a closer look at the TRUE costs of employment, i.e. workers compensation. A little secret of your agency and SAIF reveals exactly why you and others don't want to give up the AD faller program. While private sector employers are forced to pay the highest workers compensation in the state (currently around 46% for hazard tree fallers), SAIF has been granted a proprietary workers compensation class code which is given ONLY to ODF. Why? Because ODF employs over 2,000 people. (Big deal...) What is this class code rate? Well, a whopping 2.5% percent. Yes, ODF pays 2.5% workers compensation on AD fallers cutting burning hazard trees on wildland fires (a significant number without background checks or experience verifications). What is wrong with that, you might ask? Well, in addition to this proprietary workers compensation code representing an unfair competitive advantage with the private sector, there is also a suspiciously high denial rate for workers compensation claims filed under this particular classification code. Liberty Northwest - a SAIF competitor - must be particularly interested in this situation, as are private sector contractors. We certainly are, particularly when we are being accused of taking an "unfair cut" of the faller module rate.

In fact, faller module fallers receive employment benefits every single employee in the state of Oregon receives (and which ODF employees receive) but which are withheld from AD Fallers. These things cost money, and the state considers these benefits (which their employees receive) too expensive for AD Fallers. Why would that be, do you think?

In addition, you mentioned "supervision" of private resources. Just last year on the Blossom Complex there was what is now notoriously called the "Showdown at the Pink Line." It was quite something. It seems that a group of state hired AD Fallers were somehow left to their own devises (i.e. without supervision). And, instead of actually working (which is what I assume they were being paid to do) they decided to line their trucks up across the road, spray a hot pink line across where they believed the division line between the state and federal managed divisions were (complete with "us" on the state side and "them" on the federal side) and wait for the faller modules and a Wyoming hand crew (who were actually working snagging the road) to come head long into their jr. high-esque confrontation. Supervision? I don't think so. Fortunately, a savvy task force unit leader diffused the situation and the AD fallers were moved into an area where they couldn't hurt themselves or anyone else. Did I mention that the individuals who "walked off the line" at the Mt. Hood Complex were a part of this AD Faller contingency on the Blossom Complex?

No doubt, there are many excellent AD Fallers. We know. We're hiring them. We're paying them well. We're giving them the training, equipment and PAY they deserve. We cover them with insurance. We provide them with unemployment insurance benefits and their pay is credited to their social security account (which hopefully will still be around when they need it.) Somehow they don't seem to be unhappy about that. But agency folks like you seem to take exception.

Re: Safety...yes, assuring fallers who make their way to the fireline are who they say they are improves safety. I'm surprised you think that is somehow a Red Herring. Providing them with adquate fireline training improves safety. Giving them workable information on how the ICS system works improves communication...and safety. One of the few ways in which the AD Faller program could be improved would be to have consequences for unacceptable performance and behavior. To date, that has been missing.

Last, all fallers who are legitimate fallers work in the commercial timber industry, and can prove it. When they come to work on a faller module it doesn't change who they are or what they do. What matters is how well they do it. And, blaming fallers who work under the faller module program for the poor choices made by AD Fallers (i.e. the Mt. Hood Complex incident) is inappropriate, no matter how craftily you wrap in up in your words.

Shari Downhill

"What you just described is Appropriate Management Response (AMR) and not Wildland Fire Use for Resource Benefit (WFU)." The are some very significant differences between the two management options."

Let's see (searching for polite response)....um, thanks for pointing that out.

So, if what I described is just AMR, and you're OK with AMR, what's your point? I described, by example, what I believe you described as a blurring of some important line. Please don't cite any more policy. Those are arbitrary management decisions, too often with no magic or basis in science, and policies are subject to change with the stroke of a pen. I can't get my head around the idea that current Forest Service policy equals wise and safe and that to look at fire in a more holistic way than the Forest Service does today is either unwise or unsafe.

Sign me,

GGFire

HR 5416 IH
109th CONGRESS
2d Session

H. R. 5416
To provide for grants to conduct research toward the development of a vaccine against Valley Fever.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
May 18, 2006
Mr. THOMAS introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce

A BILL
To provide for grants to conduct research toward the development of a vaccine against Valley Fever.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Valley Fever Vaccine Development Act'.

SEC. 2. GRANTS FOR RESEARCH ON VACCINE AGAINST VALLEY FEVER.

(a) In General- In supporting research on the development of vaccines against human diseases, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, shall make grants for the purpose of conducting research toward the development of a vaccine against coccidioidomycosis (commonly known as Valley Fever).

(b) Sunset- No grant may be made under subsection (a) on or after October 1, 2012. The preceding sentence does not have any legal effect on payments under grants for which amounts appropriated under subsection (c) were obligated prior to such date.

(c) Authorization of Appropriations- For the purpose of making grants under subsection (a), there are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary for each of the fiscal years 2007 through 2012.

END

Health & Safety folks from the Forest Service have been in touch with epidemiologists who indicate that with sufficient funding, a vaccine is certainly possible. Rep. Thomas is not seeking reelection this year so I will be in touch with his Legislative Director to discuss the movement of the bill this year.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

We place supervision over the fallers to provide for fire line safety. Isn't this true for contract fallers also? What's next? Organize the dozer operators? Give the operators extra training and then sell it to the agencies. Jack up the price for dozer use on a fire? Agencies still need to assign supervision to these single resources assigned to the fire. Instead of the ability to use local forces we will be waiting around for the professional dozer operators to show up and the fire will be bigger and more fire fighters will be at risk.

Our timber industry sends their people to fire training yearly and they have a refresher each spring. Are they trained up to a FF level... some are but most are only receiving a basic knowledge of fire suppression. What they bring are the years of experience of tipping trees from stumps and operating equipment while complying with a multitude of OR-OSHA rules which includes basic fire suppression.

My opinion regarding the contract or professional fallers is not about the fallers. I'm sure they are a great group of individuals. However, calling our local resources names in a post on They Said doesn't help. In fact it shows how little some really care about or understand local relationships and their importance to safe and effective fire suppression actions. The comments posted read more like... how can I justify more money for providing the same resource to the government ? A question does come to mind... is all of the extra money paid for "professional" fallers going to the fallers or does somebody take a cut for organizing the fallers? Is this organization done under a non-profit umbrella?

The post crossed the line with celebrating the demise of AD resources... Hard working local resources are not always privy to federal contracting and agreements. Local AD fire fighting assistance is provided when requested. They (fallers) have a regular job... and it's falling timber! Are there "want to be fallers" trying to get hired on without the skill levels necessary? Yes I even heard of fallers in Southern Oregon showing up in tennis shoes...hmmmm professional faller? It's understandable that our AD fallers had a problem with two pay scales for the same job. Maybe if the local fallers bought embroidered shirts and matching suspenders we could pay them appropriate $$$ for the work they perform.

Playing the safety card is always a sure way to bait others into the conversation, but frankly I grow a little tired of of the misdirection the spin causes to the overall safety issues faced daily by IA and extended operation fire fighters.

I'm offended by the both the tone and content of the post regarding fallers walking off the line. I might even lose a little bit of sleep over the posters comments if I find myself with free time and nothing else to do.

Oliver... be safe

Oliver, this Ab hopes you don't loose sleep over the post. Thanks for your reply.

It's been a month now that the Cluster Map on our Index Page has been accumulating and mapping visitors to our Index Page. Click on the small cluster map there for the bigger version.

It's interesting to see who's visiting from around the world. If you click on the part of the world you're interested in, that part of the map comes up larger on your screen. In the US, it's not so surprising we have lots of viewers from the west and from the Washington DC area, but it's very nice we also are viewed by folks across the country and Canada. You can go back and pick another part of the world to enlarge. We have viewers in Russia, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Europe, Africa, Australia (hi OB). Wow.

OK, back to working on fire. Ab.

Dry slots fan the flames

Columns of super-dry air that reach the earth’s surface from high altitudes could be responsible for extreme fire behaviour in some of the worst bushfires in Australia ’s history.

In work undertaken through the Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre, Dr Graham Mills, from the Bureau of Meteorology, has found that under certain conditions columns of dry, fast moving, high-altitude air descend, causing a rapid loss of humidity at ground level and very strong gusty winds. If positioned over an ongoing bushfire, this phenomenon can cause the bushfire to erupt into an uncontrollable inferno.

Unfortunately the link to the full document doesn't work, but it's worth putting on the radar. The rest of the research can be viewed at www.bushfirecrc.com (although the page does need some updating...).

Good luck over there. The 2nd ANZAC group is on the way & it appears a bunch from the first shift are committed to the Tripod and Cascade Crest complexes (amongst others - they're scattered around the place...).

Cheers for now

OB

Thanks OB. Ab.

NY Times article by Kirk Johnson:
Wildfire damage immense, dispersed

DENVER - Bad wildfire years in the West have usually come with a giant, signature fire that resonates down the years through the lives lost or landscapes left scarred: Mann Gulch, 1949. Yellowstone, 1988. The Big Blowup, 1910.

This year has been bad, firefighters and foresters say, partly for the very lack of that center. The fires of 2006 have been just about everywhere, from the plains of Texas and Nebraska to the high northern Rockies of Montana to the Nevada desert.

At the same time as burnover, another engine company had to set a fire to seek safety in the black. Winds were over 30 mph and aircraft were grounded. Several dozers and engines melted decals on this one. CDF & CA OES engines totaled 15 of the 37 engines that responded initial attack on this fast moving fire fire...12,000 acres in 12hours ! Lots of heroic efforts in saving structures. Kudos to Elko City FD.

Any updates or reports on the Mudd Fire incident would be appreciated. Ab.

"As Todd said, the No Cal fires were crew shows. All engine orders were filled, although there were some disagreements for a while about using Fed only engines. This request for "Fed only" was from the Federal ICs. So drawdown for engines isn't an issue in our discussion"

Not ALL engine orders were filled. There was no request for "FED only" from the incident management level on the fires we were on.... and not all engine orders were filled. Proof on file.

Not to tip my hand.... but here it goes again... BS.... BS.. BS... arghh.... BS again..... That info is WRONG AND NOT FACTUAL...... There never was a request for FED ONLY engines or crews for the two fires I was on in a supervisory capacity (Lakin and Happy Camp)..... while we were there........ BOTH CREW AND ENGINE requests for two weeks went unfilled by "someone" or were altered by someone above the Incident Management Team Level in the ROSS or GACC...... "Someone" is more interested in "dollars" than "safety".

On the Lakin Fire and the Happy Complex Fires in Northern California, there were both crew (type 1 and 2IA) and type 3 engine orders unfilled (UTF'd) by "someone" even though those resources were available in California and other Regions... "Someone" also killed orders for Type 1, 2, and 3 helicopters even though they were available through exclusive use contracts and through CWN arrangements in California and other regions..... "Someone" needs to step up.... I have my ideas of the names of "someone"....

The resources were available and statused as available in ROSS, Wildweb, and GACC morning reports. Phone calls confirmed availability from local units.

Like I said before, "Dale Longanecker is so right in his observations. This year, there is (if not in previous years) a 19th Situation to Watch Out." This year, wildland firefighters are watching "someone" or "something" that is increasing the risks to wildland firefighters.

We will mitigate this "19th Situation"..... Come hell or high water... Bring your boots or learn how to swim.... otherwise, facts will speak louder than words.

I have the facts and I don't swim very well.......

That is all I will say.....

Gizmo

The Aussies, Kiwis and Canucks have been in the US several times before, in 2000 and 2003. The Aussies and Kiwis are all top-level fire Overhead, whose quals have been checked and crossed checked against 310-1. In Montana during 2000, they and the Canadians brought in IMTs that totally ran 1000+ person fires very successfully. They had ICs, Division Supes, Air Attack and Helicopter Managers in the mix.

Everyone on US Federal land fires carry fire shelters - Feds, state folks, rural and volunteers, Canadians, Aussies, New Zealanders, everyone. Remember, the fire shelter originated in Australia way back in the 1950-1960 era!

As for the Thirtymile and Cramer requirements, I know they get a good orientation on US Firefighter safety issues, although they may not have to do everything that one specific US Federal agency requires of their employees.

And the cost? Probably $1000-1500 per person. Looked at the hourly costs of a T-1 helicopter lately? How about the daily cost to the US agencies when they have a CDF engine crew go to Idaho or Montana? We're spending MILLIONS of dollars a day fighting fire (less than in Iraq, but still a lot of money in this taxpayer's view), so the cost of flying highly qualified fire overhead in to the US is really just chump change in the big picture! If the US had some DIVS, AOBD, FBAN, ASGS and HEB1/2 personnel available at this time, the overseas help wouldn't have been asked for: have you taken a look at the UTF list lately?

I've been fortunate enough to work with the Aussies, Kiwis and Canadians before, and personally welcome them with open arms into our wildfire suppression organization again!

Mollysboy

I had the pleasure to work with some of the folks from Canada in 2002 and they were very professional. I had the impression that much of their fire experience is closer to what we get in Alaska: you are more likely to be in an isolated location without much to back you up, factors that can rapidly turn a safety mistake into a tragedy. I'd be surprised if you found them to be anything less than first-rate, safe firefighters.

Still Out There as an AD

What can be said…..?

This turned out to be such a great experience. What I saw was a great team. I saw dedication and teamwork. I was “blown” away by the amount of integrity displayed by this team. The concern for Ken, the safety for him and the rest of the crew took first priority. Even with the pressure that Ken put upon himself and the state of mind he had to put himself in to run, all decisions and contingencies were calmly and soberly executed. Because of the planning and the wealth of resources that were provided (Maps, GPS equipment, EMT, traffic control, etc…..) I was confident in the safety of all involved.

Teary eye moments for me:

• The participation of the BLM and the Kern Valley Hotshots (thank you Debbie!!)
• The parting (and shoving) of the Hotshots at the finish line.
• The presentation of the jar of money to Vicky Minor from little Elisabeth Breen, the girl that sold snow cones to raise money for the run.

Bravo Team
Bravo Ken
Thanks to all the contributors.

I’m looking forward to next year!!

Ian

The Abs are also looking forward to next year. It was a great experience, both years. Thanks Ken and All.
Photos from '06 run.
Photos from '05 run.

1. Are they being trained in the use of fire shelters and being required
   to carry them?
2. Are they receiving all of the 30 Mile and Cramer Abatement items
   training as firefighters? and
3. Are they (the supervisors from Canada, AU, and NZ) being required
   to meet and document all of the 30 Mile and Cramer abatement
   items like U.S. fireline supervisors?

Rogue Rivers

P.S. - I wonder how much it must cost to bring in all those firefighters from
other countries, while U.S. firefighters are sitting at home?

-Camp slug

Sometimes just before transition the team might take a hard look at downsizing (or upsizing) resources to cover the transition, and after transition the new team does the same. It makes sense to me that they might order new resources depending on the tactics they decide on, to replace other similar resources timing out, etc.

Then there's also the weather, especially the foehn winds predicted, and whether the wind shift might put residences or Hwy 96 in danger again.

From a distance it might seem confusing. My guess is that it's really not if you're in the middle of it.

Mellie

I do know what a Fire Use team is and their quals and skills. The point I was making was that when a "Fire Use Team" is assigned that indicates that the fire has been declared a fire use and not a suppression fire. The direction states once suppression cannot be returned to use. Simple at least to me.

Nor Cal Tom

I agree with the need to be flexible with determining use vs suppression and the use AMR. I clearly remember being sent to fires that we had no business even fussing with as they were not a threat and it cost a whole lot more to put it out vs look at it once or twice a day. But the policy at the time or on the forest was to put them out, no discussions. I bent my pick over that one several times and was told in no uncertain terms what the forest policy was. So been there done that and ain't going back.

Old Guy

Thanks Paul. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Memorials Planned and Addresses for Cards, Flowers, and Condolences
Krassel Helicopter Incident, August 13, 2006
Region 4, Payette National Forest
Services are open to family, friends and colleagues.

Lillian Patten:
· Saturday, August 26, 2006, 1500
· Mount Tabor Park, SE 69th & SE Belmont St., Portland, OR, 97215
· Dress in casual attire

· US Forest Service
Linda Goodman
333 SW 1st Ave
PO Box 3623
Portland, OR 97208-3623
Attn: David and Suzanne Tufenkian

· Donations in lieu of flowers can be sent to the Wildland Firefighters
Foundation in Lillian’s name at www.wffoundation.org/ or by phone at
(208) 336-2996.

Quin Stone:
· Saturday, August 26, 2006 at 1300
· Potter Funeral Chapel, 220 E Main St, Emmett, ID
· Dress in casual attire
· A potluck will be held following the service

· Bryan and Ann Stone
1345 4th Street
Emmett, Idaho 83617

· Donations in lieu of flowers can be sent to the Wildland Firefighters
Foundation in Quin’s name at www.wffoundation.org/ or by phone
at (208) 336-2996.

Thanks

Caring Person

Manslaughter: He was driving an engine that left I-10 in Beaumont CA last year. A colleague died.
August 24, 2006
By Paul DeCarlo and John Asbury

BEAUMONT - A firefighter faces a vehicular-manslaughter charge a year after the engine he was driving went off a Beaumont freeway embankment in heavy rain, killing a 23-year-old colleague, authorities announced Thursday.

Michael Lawrence Arizaga, 47, of Hemet, was charged Aug. 4 with one misdemeanor count of vehicular manslaughter without gross negligence, according to the Riverside County district attorney's office.

It is the first time an on-duty Riverside County firefighter has been charged with manslaughter after being involved in an accident, said Riverside County Fire Capt. Julie Hutchinson.

It likely is the first time in the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection's 101-year history as well, a spokesman said.

"As far as people here can recall, this has never happened before," CDF spokesman Michael Jarvis said Thursday from Sacramento. Riverside County contracts for fire service with CDF.

<snip>

"The loss of one of our own firefighters has been a traumatic event for the Kanton family and the entire department," a Riverside County Fire Department news release stated Thursday. "This is a difficult time for this organization and it is important that we continue to work together as a department."

PMP

Suddenly I had all kinds of resources in route. Granted, later my boss and I had a heart to heart about my choice to embarrass him -vs- his lack of trust in his personnel. (He was new and didn't know any of his people. He didn't know who had ran fires or for how long, and instead of trusting our quals had made several questionable actions that we were all tired of.) My actions brought it to a head (for good or bad).

So question........ Have any pio's during an interview to the press said "Well we wanted to save those homes, but we were unable to get the manpower we needed. Unfortunately someone at ??? wouldn't approve the use of local professional crews, we were told that until a federal crew was available our orders couldn't be filled....."

I could imagine the scandal "Tonight on DATELINE......homes burn so the Fire Service can save pennies."

I realize that I might have an over-simplified view on the situation, but it seems that if the system is broken and we continue to make do, make do, "duct tape and bailing twine the broken system together" without really standing up and "refusing the risk" (see your yellow guide and think in broader terms than one assignment, think of the whole fire as one action, one risk.);
if we participate without making serious, well documented, noise,
then we are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Thanks for the voice Ab,

Flash in Florida

ps: Does anyone know the ad rate for resource unit leader on a type 2 IMT???

ADFA website. There's also a link on the Classifieds page. Ab.

Ab:

Last month, a local ROSS department store went up in flames. I’ve attached a
photo that might be used to describe the current feelings regarding the ROSS
system that we have to deal with when ordering resources.

KB

A Fire Use Team is essentially a short type 2 team. They are
fully capable of taking suppression actions when required.

TC

I feel your pain brother.

Try getting a contractor paid out of IAS, input a CA-1 into SHIPS, keep up
with the continuing senseless AG-Learn Training, stay current with AMIS,
navigate AVUE etc. etc. We are rats stuck in the time sucking digital
wheel and I doubt it's going to get any better.

>From the tone of your letter, sounds like you're a little overstressed and
need a day or two off doing something self-indulgent.

-Dozershot

You also need to remember this is going on all day
long, a constant inflow of resource orders we have
nobody available for and in many cases orders we have
nobody qualified for. Now if it is as OSCC says that
NICC is requiring this, I call "Bullsh*t", someone
needs to elevate it above them so we can get this
changed, the program as cumbersome as it is, that part
of the program works and can save time and money.
"Documentation Trail", my as$, use the program like it
was designed, I have enough work to do in my daily job
without having to waste time helping to create a
documentation trail. Multiply my wasted time by every
center just in California and I bet there is a
but*load of dollars wasted.

Sign me

Angered, Frustrated and needing just a little help

Two Firefighters Hurt in NV Burnover
http://www.elkodaily.com/articles/2006/08/23/news/local_news/news1.txt

Two wildland firefighters from the Bureau of Land Management, Bakersfield, Calif., District Office were injured Wednesday afternoon during a wildland fire burn-over on the Mudd Fire. The men were caught outside their truck and had to deploy their fire shelters. Harris said the truck had a flat tire and was high-centered.

After the fire passed, the two men were transported to Northeastern Nevada Regional Hospital where they were treated and released for minor to moderate burns.

Trailhead Fire Threatens Stanley ID
www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?issue_date=08-25-2006&ID=2005111985

The Trailhead Fire re-ignited Tuesday and rapidly charged through thousands of acres of tinder-dry, beetle-killed pine trees on Wednesday and Thursday.

USFS gathering smoke data
www.siskiyoudaily.com/articles/2006/08/23/news/doc44ecddad75f51389313789.txt

Washington Governor Declares Wildfire Emergency
www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2006/08/25/71730.htm

Sleuth tracks down history of county fire department (Ventura County CA Fire Department)
www.moorparkacorn.com/news/2006/0825/Community/019.html

NorCal Tom

You are exactly correct that wildland firefighters have been considered aids or technicians when their job has long since passed those levels. I once heard from a division chief that the day of the dumb firefighter is long over and that they need to get educated. That person was right. The current push for the natural resource training is at least a start in the right direction. Also those line offices must be required to go to professional fire training and to pay attention and learn something.

A friend of mine attended the recent Fire Management for Line officers course in R-5 and they told me that a large portion of the class was out of the room on the phone, shopping, visiting with their friends or playing giggles instead of taking it seriously. I think they were right that these people didnt learn anything when I read on the NIFC report that a type 2 team was replaced on a fire by a fire use team. I believe that national policy says that once a fire is declared a wildfire it cannot be returned to fire use. Isnt this a violation of national policy? If so where are the "Leaders" who should have been all over that and held the line officer responsible for that decision accountable. National Planning level 5.

FC180 saying that CDF resources are sitting home while the west burns, what about the Fed resources sitting at home? Yes crews are short but a quick look at the Wild Cad tells the story of forests that have KEPT all their engines home in the south, yet the chiefs letter is the usual rubber page letter for this time of the year for everyone to step up and participate. Leadership by letter doesnt cut it. I would bet that resources would get shaken loose if Bosworth got on the phone to Forest Supervisors and told them to cut folks free. If they didnt, its time for a New Forest Sup. There is a huge gap between rhetoric from Bosworth and Harbour and action on their parts. At one time I thought they were people of action, now they sit on the Ivory throne and talk.

Enough of this rant

Old Guy

With that said, I have to say our Dept. as a whole now-a-days is soft compared to years ago and in my opinion it's due to the fact our management promoted too quickly or they came from our resource management side so they don't always have a clue what our crews can and can't do.

The crew is a direct reflection of their Capt. So like any agency's crews, you have good ones and bad ones.
Me personally, I wish we could go more places for assignments ie; out-of state and staying out longer - spiking/coyoting. Some of the best times I've had chasing fires has come when I've been toe-to-toe with my hot shot counterparts doing the same job completing the assignment while having that sense of accomplishment with the adrenaline rush.

Far as security with or without corrections, it depends on the relationship you have with CDC, I'm lucky because our LT. and staff will go on the line and support all our ops, if needed they will spike with us. Security at base camp is both our jobs, but after feeding it is nice to break away for our down time.

Hope this helps.

firecrewcapt.

/s/ Tom Boatner
Chair, NMAC

Yeah, and the most deadly kind of vehicle accident you especially want to avoid is one like this: photo

Stanley

photo

Burns

FC 180

I thought I had heard everything.... Guess not....

"This fire at its height was consuming vegetation faster than pizza would
disappear at a Weight Watcher's convention," Struble said. "When you
have winds and humidity like that, nothing is going to stop it."

www.signonsandiego.com

Rogue Rivers

Casey mentioned the lack of adequate classification for the Wildland Fire fighter under the new 400 series. Right on. The 462 series failed to do that as well when it was mass adopted back in about 1971-72. There actually was a Wildland Fire Fighter Series called Fire Control Aid/Technician; the PDs were accurate and reflected the tasks including the resource management work that was expected of the crews.

The comments about firefighters wanting to be firefighters and not do resource work. Well did anyone consider that "new age" resource managers view the fire fighters as bumbling, lazy, uneducated fools that are not capable of getting their projects done. That one I have seen more of in the last 10-15 years than the firefighters who are unwilling to go do the other work. Has it dawned on anyone that there is a lack of projects that the crews can do because the ologists are still squabbling over the EA or other documents?

I could rant on but it doesnt matter because those that sit on the Ivory throne dont read this forum and dont give a rats-patute about the "little people" out in the field.

old guy

Readers, this should be about "the what, not the who". We have many good people who are non-fire public servants who are just as stuck in the morass of outdated bureaucracy as fire is. Ab.

Ab note: Inciweb is very slow, so I've copied and pasted it here.

Two Firefighters Deploy Emergency Shelters On Mudd Fire North Of Elko NV - Treated & Released

Incident Contact: Mike Brown (775) 748-4141

Incident: Mudd Fire
Released: 2006-08-24 10:45:00 ET

Two firefighters staffing a BLM fire engine from the BLM-Bakersfield District (California) during initial attack were involved in a burnover and emergency fire shelter deployment at approximately 1700 on Wednesday, August 23 while participating in initial attack operations on the Mudd Fire, located five mile north of Elko, Nevada.

The two firefighters were transported by ambulance to the Northeast Nevada Regional Hospital in Elko, where they were treated for minor to medium burns and released late in the evening on August 23.

An accident investigation team is being assembled and will examine the circumstances of the incident.

* * * * * * * * *

Killer,

Can't wait till you get home. I ordered the my Kayak today and it will be shipped within a week and half. Give me a call when you get home, I have your kayak in the engine bay.

An-R5er

For those of you who continue to sit on the fence about joining the FWFSA, or continue to question whether FWFSA actually has the ability to educate congress and influence the FS, I offer the following memo from Chief Dale Bosworth dated yesterday:

From:    Dale Bosworth/WO/USDAFS
To:        pdl wo chief NLT@FSNOTES
Sent by: Kathleen A Clemens
Date:     08/22/2006, 07:42 AM
Subject: This year's fire season

I am concerned about the seriousness of this year’s fire season. In
addition to the protection of life, property and resources, and the safety
of those involved in fire suppression, I am also concerned about mounting
costs and the threat of fire funding transfers. I have asked Kent
Connaughton, Associate Deputy Chief for State and Private Forestry, to
serve as the Forest Service’s comptroller to monitor and oversee our
efforts to manage suppression expenditures.

Kent will monitor daily changes in costs and the associated fire situation
for the rest of the fire season. You can expect that he will confer with
you and others involved in suppression to help me better understand how we
are managing those fires and their associated costs, and to help our budget
and finance folks answer questions posed by Congress, OMB and the
Department.

I expect that each of you be especially careful to evaluate cost
containment as an objective in your suppression strategies. Please ask
your Forest Supervisors and Rangers to do the same.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As Mr. Judd recently said, the FWFSA has the FS on its heels. Now is not the time to be content with watching a few fight the fight for all of us. Join the FWFSA. For those members like myself who have benefited financially from the FWFSA's success in eliminating the OT pay cap a few years ago, I'd encourage you to double your dues as I have.

Sure, a 12 pack is nice once in a while, but since dues are about the same, I'll skip the beer for a while.

CP

I have heard that the Forest Service does not have to say how much it is
spending on outsourcing studies. As I understand it, there is a cap on how
much can be spent, but there is no way to find out if the FS is staying
under that cap. Does anyone know for sure if this is true?

LED

Engines aren't what we need. Fires are in roadless and wilderness. And take a look at the terrain:
www.inciweb.org/incident/maps/full/370/2690/
www.inciweb.org/incident/pictures/full/370/1863/
www.inciweb.org/incident/pictures/full/348/1792/

We need hotshot crews. A number of those assigned to norcal fires will be timing out soon if you can go by when they started their 2 week assignment. I hope someone will be tracking how many hs crews are really available to fill in.

A Question: Do CDF convict crews coyote out for 72 hours at a time in the smoke? The trails are very steep... I think it's more a matter of matching resource (with constraints on living conditions, security, overhead supervision, etc) to demands dictated by fire behavior, terrain, smoke inversion, etc than anything else.

I did hear from a friend early in the month that the 2 LACo convict crews were exemplary on the Bake Oven fire: they cut 7 miles of containment line in the Trinity Wilderness in a day. It was less smoky. They were further back from the fireline. Good job.

Be safe,

Todd

The LLC has now posted 9 parts of the Sundance Fire report, for a total of
about 100 mb. Attached are a couple pictures we've extracted so far: one of
the bridge and one of the dozer. Maybe by the 30th anniversary we'll get
the whole thing posted as an .html web version.

CJ - we're awfully wet with all the monsoon rain, but not complaining
(nobody would listen if we did.)

vfd cap'n

www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/sundance_investigation_1967_
part1.pdf
part2.pdf
part3.pdf
part4.pdf
part5.pdf
part6.pdf
part7.pdf
part8.pdf
part9.pdf

Sundance Fire, Kaniksu NF, Idaho,1967

Yes Killer is in Redding area. he is flying ATGS
on the Bar Complex, been here about a week.

NOPSer

BITTER BRUSH: A lightning-caused fire that started yesterday in Moffat county one-half mile south of Maybell. The fire behavior last night was listed as running, rapid rates of spread with fire whirls due to thunder storms and erratic winds. Six engines, two bulldozers and one water tender is assigned. One hundred residences are listed as threatened. 300 acres; 0 % contained

CJ, Strawberry, CA Student and family

Apparently, that's not true. It's my understanding that local government and CDF resources from NorCal were sent to Nevada this week, probably under the new EMAC agreement signed by California. Yet last week engine and overhead orders were UTF in NorCal. Resource orders came back tagged "No Federal Available".

So is it cost that's creating the 19th Watchout? Or is it Fed ego? Likely both. Bluezebra's comments are interesting in light of the fact that most of the California IMTs (Type 1&2) are about 50% local government, largely due to the fact that there isn't any Fed overhead available. I guess local gov't overhead is capable, but engines and crews aren't?

Maybe we should change it to "closest appropriate resource that doesn't cost too much and is willing to do the job the way you think it oughtta be done".

Local Gov't Slug

I for one, wish they would muddy the line between Suppression and Fire Use.
Both are great tools, and should be available for use on any incident. A
fire is a fire is a fire, and we should have all the tools available to us
at our disposal.....

TC

"In any case, once a need is recognized and cannot be met, by either primary or alternative means, then we are--never--justified in going forward just as though the need had been fulfilled. No emergency operation changes this policy."

Cliff asked later in the memo:

"Is the failure to adjust more widespread than just this one incident? Is it an indicator of a weakness in the way we operate? Is there a message in this case regarding the issuance of shelters on future fires?"

An answer can be found at Battlement Creek and at South Canyon, among others.

The first half of the Sundance Fire report is available at the Wildfire Lessons Learned Center site, www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/sundance_investigation_1967_part1.pdf

In addition to the above, it is worth downloading and studying as perhaps the first fatality investigation to discuss "adherence" to the Fire Orders, more than 20 years before the Dude Fire. (In honor of those six who died and of Paul Gleason, the Dude report has been re-posted on the Lessons Learned Center database without redactions.)

I can't say enough about the effort this past year by the LLC staff. I especially want to mention the hard work done by John Artley, an intern from the Student Conservation Association. Thanks to Paula, Dave and John.

vfd cap'n

LM

Hearing about understaffed fires and the increased risks to F/F's prompted the following thoughts. Prior to my job in firefighting I worked in Pvt. Industry. When we didn't have the proper crew or tools to do the job we would go into "slow down mode" and plan out our day so we could do the job we were requested to do and not hurt anyone. Now some out there may say that firefighting does not compare with what I did in the pvt. sector, but hear me out. If you don't have the resources to meet the days plan, step back and rethink what your doing. Maybe you have to rewrite the plan. Don't push your folks into situations that increase the risk of an already risky job. Upper level management would try and push and intimidate and jump up and down to get their way but, when you feel it's unsafe to assign the tactics that you are ordered to do, don't do it.

As a F/F and now a chief officer my #1 job is to keep my folks safe. As a line officer or Crew chief on a fire your #1 job is to keep your folks safe. As a F/F your #1 job is to keep yourself and your brother/sister F/F's safe. Putting out the fire or saving someone else's butt is just something we do because we're there.

Yes, it's that easy folks. Don't let your pride or whatever it is let you get yourself into a situation that turns out tragic. Once your injured, your injured, once your burned, your burned. Once you're dead....

danfromord

To Oliver-

Of course we will hold onto our IA resources if we can (based upon our
perceived needs). And yes our priorities are almost always initial attack
as opposed to large fire support. And yes we need to all come home safe
and sound in the knowledge that we did the best we could with what we had,
using sound risk management principles.

But we also need to look hard at local vs. national needs. When it comes
down to it WE ARE ALL national resources. The folks of Colorado should be
able to use us, just as much as those of California. They have all paid
for us.

With regard to speaking our minds- we should - with the knowledge that we
speak for ourselves and not any particular agency (that's what PAOs are
for).

Do we make mistakes -Yes. The public needs to know that we are human, that
we deal with complex issues every day. I have a little secret that just
may surprise us all,
some people will never trust "The Government", some people don't like "The
Government" and will always doubt our collective ability to manage
anything.

Our job is to be honest/open and work hard every day to redeem our public
trust. We owe it to the public to speak our minds, with the knowledge that
everyone has an opinion and a point of perspective.- some more credible
than others. We work within complex organizations that have a distinct
mission. Sometimes we speak in rough, uncivilized terms, sometimes we
speak in unfathomable jargon. The public who tune into this forum should
hear both, knowing that we are a diverse collection of human beings and not
merely faceless bureaucrats who spout all the right words and say
absolutely nothing. I'm glad that you had the pleasure of working with a
competent IMT made up of "land managers or past land managers who have
moved to fire staff positions". Some day the land management agencies
should try out the strange notion of moving competent career fire managers
into land manager positions like District Rangers, District Managers and
Forest Supervisors. Perhaps the Director/Chief/Regional Foresters and
other leaders would soon discover that the same qualities of meeting all
the prescribed objectives and providing for the leadership and direction
for a safe work assignment in difficult terrain, fuels and (political mine
fields) can be accomplished just as effectively by a career fire
professional as by a forester, engineer or person of any other background.

As a taxpayer and a professional wildland firefighter I don't even see
White, Red and Green vehicles. I see the tools of the best trained and
equipped fire suppression/management organization that the world has ever
known. We should be proud of that and prove our worth every day. That
means coming home in one piece.

Newton Smokesucker III

"As fires continue to rage throughout the western states, we are reminded that firefighting is a dangerous business. No piece of land or anyone's home is worth the loss of life. Our firefighters' and the public's safety is and always will be our first priority."

Mellie, add Dale Bosworth to your list for people to "poke the stick at"... His words are heard and seen in the press, but his actions in reducing risks have yet to be seen by the wildland firefighter community or the public.

Mellie, as you know, Doctrine is not just an idea, it is a well proven principle for safety. Hopefully some of the other folks who have had a "stick poked at them" will come out of hibernation and re-focus on the ultimate goal.... wildland firefighter and public safety.

Sorry for the rant.

Lobotomy

Disclaimer. - When used properly, both the Suppression AMR and WFU can decrease the risks to wildland firefighters. Like most tools, if they are used improperly or not used as intended, they are hazardous to the non-educated, non-experienced, or fatigued users. When used improperly, they result in increased risks to wildland firefighters and the communities they protect.

Buddy Vandiver

Please send me your list of former El Cariso Hotshot members.
I will be assembling the master list, I guess.
doug @ dougsfire.com

Thanks Buddy
Doug Campbell

I'm also concerned about the outsourcing, experience levels and how they effect wild fire suppression efforts and fire fighter safety. The experience gap widens with every lost suppression dollar and FF position. Add retirements and career changes and the gap turns into a chasm. Will outsourcing become the abyss?

As you know contract resources on larger incidents need more mid level fire managers (STLC and TFLD) to make sure the work product we are paying for actually gets done. The more inexperienced contractors need more supervision and vice versa. The question for leadership is where will these mid level fire line managers positions come from if we continue to outsource? A FF becomes a TFLD.... A TFLD becomes a DIVS... DIVS becomes OSC... and so on.

Oliver...be safe

Other Stuff:

I'm still not sure a National Fire Service is the answer. First I don't know the organizational structure proposed and secondly I'm a fix it don't re-invent it sort of person.
The arguments for and the points made for change are strong but I just can't jump onto the bandwagon yet. I'm hopeful leaders will emerge from the Federal and State levels to design a way to resurrect and re-tool the fire service programs managed by the Federal Agencies and within those State Agencies that have gone down the same path to outsourcing and reduced readiness and suppression dollars.

There are bright intelligent fire fighters waiting in the wings for their chance to lead suppression efforts at local levels and on large incidents. To interrupt this flow of experienced agency FF's with outsourcing will be an expensive lesson learned in the near

What are the options to a National Fire Service?

Will a National Fire Service cause less dollars at the State Level with loss of grant dollars?

Would smaller interagency geographical areas (if the disparity in pay was addressed) help? There are already some success stories with interagency engines and fire staff.

I don't know the answers and I'm still trying to get my arms wrapped around all of the questions but I still think the most important message posted here by others is to make sure you engage yourself properly and safely despite the draw down of resources, mix of resources and shortage of experience. I think Mellie posted a great message several weeks ago about this issue. It would be worth the re-read.

Oliver...be safe

I'll let you make up your own mind on Harbour. I should have added
"who have heard him speak and seen him in action."

Mellie

Dale Longanecker, survivor of the South Canyon Fire, concluded in his official statement to the Fire Investigation Team:

"I would make another Situation that Shouts Watchout!: When you don't receive the resources that you need or are debating with the dispatcher about the resources that you need. (We) needed more of everything on this fire. Dispatch didn't want them to use retardant. (They) wouldn't give us more than one helicopter."

NorCal Tom

• Recognition of wildland firefighting as an occupation with subsequent improved self-esteem
• Better recognition of the KSAs required by the complexities of todays fire management situation
• Many FS firefighters get their training with us (FS) and then go to work for other agencies with better compensation
• The existing GS-462 standards do not adequately reflect the KSAs, training, education & physical requirements of wildland firefighters

In 1990 a letter from the R5 Fire & Aviation Management to OPM regarding the draft GS-400 series standards stated that the majority of firefighting positions within the GS-462 Forestry Technician series could not be adequately classified under proposed standards. The letter proposed that the Forest Service consider an alternative wildland firefighter series.

Again, with regards to responses on this from Mark Rey, as long ago as August of 1999, the General Accounting Office (GAO) reported that "Funding for wildfire preparedness falls short of identified needs." Now, not only is the funding short, what's left is being diverted to non-fire projects. Gee, wonder if Mr. Rey has a red card...???

According to the GAO, consistently, "the Agencies receive 15% less than the amount of funds determined to be needed by the budget planning process..." Why? Because the political appointed leaders of the Agencies don't want to risk that appointment by discarding the Administration's proposed budgets in favor of asking Congress for what they really need to fund all of their projects. The same is true today.

Also in the 1995 GAO report: "FS & BLM indicate the firefighting workforce is getting older and nearing retirement age. If these firefighters are not replaced, the agencies will not have enough qualified individuals to fill critical fire management positions. This situation could have a direct impact on firefighter safety."

Hmm, anyone try to hire in R5 lately? Know of any highly intelligent Workforce Planning Groups (Colorado) who, despite recruitment & retention problems are proposing the abolishment of fire positions?

So Mellie, let's face it... it is all BS politics. You've got Agency leaders failing our firefighter every step of the way. You've got politicians who need to be pushed up against a wall and asked "why are you not listening to the FWFSA and our firefighters?"

But, what else to do but play politics right back. And as far as I know, the FWFSA is the ONLY organization in the Nation doing just that. Not being bullied by Mark Rey and his arrogance and not resting until members of congress are not only educated about what's going on, but actually DO SOMETHING...

It ain't easy. Lord knows I pull my hair out at the lack of action in Washington or their disbelief that complex problems have relatively simple fixes. All I can say is that those who occasionally call upon others to stand up and fight need to know we are fighting... each and every day, competing with far larger organizations with much greater revenue. If you truly want to have your voice heard, if you truly want to be a part of a movement that first brought the elimination of the overtime pay cap for wildland firefighters in 1999 and has now got portal to portal & proper classification in its crosshairs... and who will be crafting legislation next session to bring hazard pay to those while on prescribed burns and basic health benefits for temporary firefighters, then don't sit idly by and complain.

I will tell you this... I am convinced we have the FS on their heels but the voice has to get stronger and louder. Progress is slow, but progress it is. Anyone who has been to DC and dealt with that group knows that getting things done and navigating through that system is not for the weak or timid.

Let us work for you too...

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

"National resources I know of are: Interagency Hotshot Crews, Type 1 and 2 helicopters, Large Airtankers, Smokejumpers. I'm sure there are more, but the earlier post ranting about FMO's not understanding that engines are a national resource is mistaken. Read your mobilization guide: there is no such thing as a "national resource" engine."

You are absolutely correct! The mob guides do only identify those resources as NR.

However, do I not travel across the country year after year, at the drop of a dime to do my part to protect the People and Resources of our great country? Do you think that I need some document on a shelf to tell me that I am a "National Resource?" I realize that there is more to it in order to be classified as a NR. Let me ask you this, why are they not classified as a NR? Are they not a resource that can be utilized across the country? One last comment... I would imagine that you are also in that group that considers that an Engine Module / Crew as not being a Type 1 resource (Just what percent of fires are Initially Attacked by an Engine Crew?). Hmmmm... Just some food for thought...

As far as I am concerned we are all "National Resources."

However, I think that we should look at the problem not argue over definitions...

Fact: There are fires burning. There are resources not being utilized. And the woods are in sad shape, people, this will not get better for a long time...

Ta' (The un-registered "National Resource")

Just a historical note:

Yactac and others on this forum and lurking here began advocating some years ago
that fed fire should be reorganized to be a national professional wildland fire department
independent of the land management agencies. Seems some one of them, maybe Don
Studebaker, told me the idea had come up a long time before folks on this forum
started throwing it around.

For the "Commanders Intent" type of change in Fire Doctrine to work smoothly,
a streamlined fire organization seems logical. I wish Ed Hollenshead was still pursuing
that idea. Seems like with his move to Acting R5 Chief the whole movement for a change
in FS Doctrine has gone down the tubes. From what I can see Mark Rey demonstrates
no interest in the idea. It's pretty clear to all what Harbour has done... and the person
who took over when Alice retired is all for outsourcing, I've heard. I would really
love it if someone would correct me on any of this. Bunch of BS politics.

All I gotta say is why is everyone taking this lying down??? Not a leader among ya?
not among the WO types? Just waiting til your time is up and you retire?

I got my stick. <poke poke at that hornet's nest>

Mark? Ed? anyone home?

Mellie

Oliver, given the current outsourcing process we're engaged in, I am concerned about our
ability to manage fire SAFELY in the future. We just won't have the experienced professional
next-generation firefighters to do it. It takes a much shorter period of time to dismantle a
system in which people are moving up in a pipeline of classroom training and OJT than it
does to start the process over. Those who leave go to other professions.

Denny Camp had a pit Barbeque going most nights. Ribs, roasts, steaks, huge salads, lemon meringue pie, etc --- it was the best line chow in 20 years of fire camps. They even would set up flower arrangements for us, wildflowers with a bit of those red three leaf branches thrown in. Later the arrangements had to be flagged off with yellow tape - too many people allergic to poison oak! Everyone wanted to be out in Denny just for the food. Wish I could remember the caterer.

No moniker (send one in?)

n Aug. 19, 2006, CDF NEU responded to a 30+ acre fire in timber and oak woodlands near Rollins Lake. (see the Hot list forum). During this fire, a fire engine suffered “significant damage” during a roll over. Fortunately, no firefighters were injured since the engine was unstaffed. The engine was parked at a house providing structure protection when it apparently rolled over or around the chock block, down a hill for about 200 feet and then onto the driver’s side. This is all preliminary information, and I will post the update as soon as I get it.

The thing to remember is that all of us firefighters have been running hard for the last few months and we still have a few more to go. We are starting to see crews “time out” on current fires while new large fires keep breaking out on a daily basis. That’s not counting the daily IA fires that we all have. Our crews are starting to get tired. Simple mistakes and “cutting corners” will start to show. The safety advisor by NWCG regarding “Extreme Fire Behavior” is proving itself true. Even the little 3-5 acres fires are showing this type of fire behavior.

I think the last statement in the NWCG’s warning hit the nail on the head: “A long, hot, and active fire season is still ahead of us in many parts of the country. Pay attention to firefighting basics. The most important resource on any fire is you.”

SPFDBC

A link to a Senator Burns video dated August 3rd on www.youtube.com, as he wraps up a conference call with Montana press about his remarks to firefighters in the Billings airport.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec8oPpneU70

From Roll Call:

During the call, a Department of Agriculture official based in Montana rushed to Burns' rescue and took over answering questions about firefighting efforts in Montana. When the official, Undersecretary Mark Rey, stopped speaking, Burns thanked the reporters for joining the call, and everyone hung up.

Except the video camera was still rolling...

"'That's the way to shut that down,' Burns is seen saying on the tape, a video file of which was e-mailed to HOH. 'Huh? That works!' Then came a 'you bet!' as he put on his white cowboy hat and prepared to get up from his desk."

OA.

Between runnin and gunnin I have managed to visit your site just to see what the chatter is in the grapevine.

Then I read TA's discussion on the notion of parked engines in obscure places while some other part of the country burns.

Oh course there are many local resources out there who like being local resources just fine. They have all sorts of excuses why they aren't available for repositioning to some other part of the country... Excuses like "Little Jimmy has a bugger flicking contest in Yonkers next December and he would be just heart broken if I missed it", or "Fido has fleas and I have to give him his daily bath", or (fill in the blank). Now I know that some folks do have lives outside of fire and thus legitimate reasons for not being available, but there are lots of engines and crew stuck at home with local priorities that really don't even begin to match up with national needs.

But some local line officer is happy because he/she attains some target accomplishment at the expense of someone else's safety and support in a hellhole/situation that those someones would really liked to have avoided.

I believe that most of the problem lies in the fact that no one really has a good read on the number and types of interagency resources that are available at any given time. Oh yes we have ROSS and our trusty dispatcher/coordination system, but what we really need is one unified national interagency directory that is web based and updated daily if necessary. We need one complete snapshot of the whole nation so that we can fill in the holes where needed.

It should state what each resource is presently committed to and to which some fire god up the food chain would determine "The greatest good" for that resource.

It would state the resource type, the quals of its crew including unique individual quals (like "Good Communication Skills", "Certified Scuba Diver", "Rock Climber", "Rides Harleys", "Speaks French", "Can spit sunflower seeds over a mile", "Plays the banjo" and my favorite "Rocket Scientist.") It would include their phone numbers, their website and their availability. Low Boys/Transport companies would be pre-identified and ready for activation. Throughout the year, each resource would be identified and scheduled for repositioning in the part of the nation where they would be used. I am talking about the complete integration of the emergency and non emergency response system. If you really want to get wacky- a manager in one part of the country could mix and match his specific needs and create a high caliber team from a large pool of individuals (even create a funky punk rock/ska band who's members all happen to be Class C fallers). There's more to the wildland firefighting community than the dry mnemonics found in some computer data base. We are individuals with our own unique skills, expertise and perceptions. Put skilled, diverse people together, give them an objective and watch the results. This is the power of the national firefighting system. The time has come to harness it.

Newton Smokesucker III

The Bishop outfit (Bar Comlex base camp) has been doing well. They made a breaded and stuffed chicken breast the other night that was very moist n tasty. Good salad options too. Im not much of a sweets eater but their choco cake that night got thumbs up and their mystery er mixed fruit pies were popular all round.

I bet hotshots coyoted out backcountry were getting testy from eating RATS. Hot cans were ditched two nights/three in a row because inversion set in early and helicopters couldn't deliver. Around the same time most of the med folks were timing out. One supt early in the day was trying to retrieve the crew's trauma kit via a helo delivery and asked that a pound of coffee be tucked inside it. More MRE's were delivered long line the next day to various spike camps when the country proved too rugged for even mules to reach several site and the 100' rope wasn't long enough. Those canyons need 150'.

Any other food stories?

Todd

"Families Turn to Foundation when Firefighters Killed"
scroll down to the video clip (requires Windows Media Player)

www.ktvb.com/video/

Lori

You should have added "tongue deeply in cheek" if you meant it that way to your comment...

I know it's not easy for the alleged "best value" fence builders and painters
to stay at home, but their time will come.

Many people do not know your subtle sense of humor like I do. I'd hate for politicians and
those in Washington to think you really think this of our professional wildland firefighters. Or
maybe I'm missing something here?

Mellie

ORLEANS

I’m sure that all of us have examples of being “treated differently in our eyes” when on a fire, be it large or small. I think the critical issue that was trying to be addressed by “HHU FC” is improper radio terminology. On the fire ground, you keep one ear to the radio and your unit call sign is the key that sets you apart from the rest of the resources. Standard terminology is one of the main components of ICS. When we revert to “non-standard terms”, then a critical message might be missed which could lead to a firefighter injury or death. Basically, it’s a safety issue.

KB

I'm no kid, but here are my thoughts. If you were in charge and there were large campaign fires, you could send all your agency initial attack resources to them and basically write them off for who knows how long. If you did, and then you later became aware of a significant event, such as dry lighting or an arsonist on your home unit, you might have a hard time, and appear quite foolish trying to get them back. Regardless, you'd still need to backfill and try to cover stations with other agencies IA resources to replace them. If the cooperating agencies were as lenient as you in sending resources for large fire support, you'd be caught trying to fulfill your IA obligations with the same above mentioned contractors and we know that regardless of how good they are, they can't be (at least where I'm from), nor can I imagine them wanting to assume incident commander responsibility. Think of the increased insurance premiums they'd face and the resulting daily rates.

I have observed that one of the most difficult decisions a fire manager has is to make is how many resources to let go at any given time. I know it's not easy for the alleged "best value" fence builders and painters to stay at home, but their time will come. I also know my 32 years in the business doesn't make me an expert, but I hope when another 10 years has passed, you'll have the wisdom to enlighten your telephone friends on how it all really works. OA

Hmmm. Could be hard to beat that quick Internet access too, this reply came just 15 minutes after I posted the last message. OA

Thanks DWD for your considerate response. Having been treated sometimes like a leper and sometimes like a king by many federal and state agencies in fire camps over the years, I eventually realized it all balances out. Sometimes those leper feeling hurt longer and aren't easily forgotten, but they do fade. Now before we begin carrying on with endless memories on how rude we've all been treated in the past, how about we get on to something more positive, like who has the "best" fire camps and who the best caterers or kitchen units are? I say the logistics chiefs, cook units, and caterers don't get enough respect. Let's give credit publicly where it's due! After all, they really can't even advertise themselves in the media and expect it to do any good when they're on a "rotation" basis. OA

To start things off, the inmates at this fire camp had more respect from the CDF team than did the Forest Service firefighters. All the inmate crews had nice sleeping tents with A/C units, set up on the only nice grass field around. The fed engine crews were stuck in the corner of the field, maybe a 100 x 100 area, between generators, outhouses, and all the inmates, for 50 firefighters to sleep.

The shower unit was for the inmates only. CDF overhead said they would shut it down for the feds to use for a half hour, but they just said that, it really never happened. So if you wanted to take a shower, it was like you had to be "special" to wait in the line with the inmates... just to take a shower.

But perhaps the best thing about the whole incident was they would not order a Forest Service Agency Rep for us. Every other department that had resources assigned to the fire had an Agency Rep, except the Forest Service. Since we did not have an Agency Rep there, they where able to treat our engine crews like crap.

So next time I go to a CDF incident, the first thing I am going to do is make sure I have an Agency Rep on scene or in route.

lobsterman

I realize FIRE is often an unpredictable force even when people are rested, tuned in to the situation and experienced. Everyone, please be aware that human factors always play a part in decisions and actions taken by humans. With that in mind, be aware that many crews are burned out, having been fighting fire in the SW since spring.

Crews, the OT is good, but please don't let the $$ dictate your decisions to carry on when you should be telling overhead you and your crew need to take a break at your home base. If you need a break, more than a 2 day RnR, demand it. Restore your sleep deficit. Get out of the smoke, clear your lungs. Hug your loved ones. Come back fresher than when you left. Predictions are that we won't have the season-ending rains in R5 and R6 until October. In the past it has been as late as early November.

We are clearly short staffed with firefighters this season, by design it appears to me. Appropriate funds were not requested. Firefighters were not rehired. All you have to do to verify this fact is look at the regional situation reports and the UTF (unable to fill) lists. It's appalling. It's easy to say, "Change the tactics to reflect the understaffed organization." I see that happening to large degree and only hope that it continues, even if "things of value" burn up. Short staffing means we are not building the future professional organization that will have enough Strike Team Leaders, DIVS, Branch Commanders, etc. Oh well, I know I'm preaching to the choir here...

Be safe. Be smart. I love ya all.

Mellie

John JP Harris, LACOFD ret.

Thanks, John. Fred got a copy, but it's good to have your contact info for future reference. I snipped your phone number, but will pass it on to anyone interested. Ab.

I am a Director on the Community Services Board, which manages funding and acquisitions for the Fire Department. I think I stumbled onto the right site on the first try last month. I've been checking entries since that first submittal, and, while I did get two responses with good ideas about coping with general issues of keeping a volunteer department viable I haven't gotten feedback about where else I might put our situation forward with the hope of attracting a retired or soon-to-be retired chief to our area and our Department. Obviously, this is a long shot, but it never hurts to ask!

We have many terrific recreational choices here among the Trinity Alps, and housing and property costs are still reasonable, relatively speaking. Our current chief just stepped down for health reasons after a year and a half of very important interim service. We are in a rebuilding process with new staff and training, and we just acquired a 1994 Pierce Engine from the Southern Marin Fire Department to add to our arsenal. So, at the risk of rambling and being redundant, I again ask, are there any other web sites, publications or organizations our Board may advertise our Department and our need for a chief? How else might we make our case known? Trinity County has a total population of about 13,000, so it's not like there are a lot idle fire chiefs sitting around looking for something to do.

Any thoughts or ideas will be greatly appreciated and considered. And, from one more source, we'd like to thank all the CDF and Forest Service crews who are still working on the many remote fires still burning in Trinity County and surrounds.

Eric

www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=432116

FILLMORE, Utah (KSL News/AP) -- Today firefighters are mourning the death of one of their own.

Thirty-three-year-old Spencer Koyle died yesterday while fighting a wildfire in Fishlake National Forest in central Utah.

On Thursday, Koyle was working on the fire with about 30 other firefighters. They were building a fire line along a ridge, to help prevent the blaze from heading towards the town of Oak City. Suddenly, the wind direction changed, trapping Koyle inside the blaze. Koyle was unable to escape.

Robert Dekker, Millard County Sheriff: "Evidently the winds changed in a drastic measure, and the fire just became violent. Those that were assigned to look at it advised their crews to move, get out, evacuate. All of the firefighters, about 30, were able to do that, with the exception of the victim , and evidently the fire overtook him. "

<snip> Please click the link to read the rest. Ab.

A nice memorial to Spencer

www.legacy.com/saltlaketribune/Obituaries.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=18961405

Good afternoon:

I've been following your site off and on for the last few months and just
wanted to say, thanks for providing such a well informed forum and link to
events that are happening south of 49th. A lot of issues and events that
occur down there are similar to events and concerns that happen here.
Always nice to have another source of information.

Anything I can provide from up here, just drop me a note or call.
Cheers.

Leo Drapeau
Safet1y Program Coordinator

When it comes to Safety Remember...
"The Life You Save..... May be Your Own."

Welcome Leo and thanks. It's good to have contacts that we can occasionally call on for information or to verify or dismiss a rumor. Likewise, if you have a question for theysaiders or otherwise, feel free to contact us. Ab.

Thanks, Melissa. Ab.

Salt Lake Tribune

Firefighter trapped in blaze after wind shifted, officials say
Nate Carlisle
The Salt Lake Tribune

The firefighter who died in Millard County on Thursday was caught in the blaze after becoming separated from his crew when the wind shifted, his family and officials said Thursday.

Spencer S. Koyle, 33, of Holden, died on the Devils Den wildfire, about 3 miles east of the town of Oak City, about 100 miles southwest of Salt Lake City.

"He just got trapped in it, basically," Koyle's sister-in-law, Shelly Buttars, told The Tribune Friday morning. Buttars said the family does not yet know the precise cause of death.

The sheriff's office said Friday that Koyle was among 30 firefighters attempting to keep the blaze from coming into town. About 2:25 p.m., the wind shifted, changing the direction and intensity of the fire, which had burned about 250 acres.

Fire lookouts ordered the firefighters out. Koyle attempted to evacuate but was overtaken by the blaze, the sheriff's office stated in a news release.

U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman Andi Falsetto would not confirm the details of Koyle's death and said federal investigators were arriving in Millard County on Friday to assist the sheriff's office.

The Devils Den fire was started by lightning just before midnight Tuesday in the Canyon Mountains and had burned about 250 acres of pinyon, juniper and brush.

The firefighters working there Thursday were replaced Friday by a larger team, Falsetto said.

Buttars said Koyle was employed full-time by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. He is survived by his wife, Nichole Koyle, and three children, ages 7, 4 and 18 months.

Readers,

If you have not contributed to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, please do so now. If you have contributed, please do so again. We need to be able to support our families via the Foundation as they deal with the shock of loosing a loved one or face the mind-numbing decisions involved in being there for an injured loved one. The Foundation is our funnel and our insurance for the bad times. This Ab is going to dig deeper and is sending in another donation. If you have the means, please do likewise. Please do it now. You can call (208) 336-2996. Ab.

AB,

Though I've never driven Fire fighting equipment, I was a driver and an equipment
instructor for a large power company. We put our rigs in some god-awful
situations and on top of that had to set poles 45' and larger along with transformers
weighing 300lbs and up. Side hill driving is the worst possible situation you can
get yourself in and needs to be avoided unless there is just no other way to do the
job. I have driven a side hill so steep I had the boom swung to the high side with
the auger dropped to keep the truck from rolling, you take a suction on the seat
and hang on. As with any job, everyone on the crew needs to be cut in on what
you're going to do: stop get out, everyone look over the site, discuss any problems
that you can see then go to it, you go balls to the wall, the price you pay could be
your life of you and your whole crew "THINK".

Regards
Bob K, Nampa Idaho

We aim to not go "balls to the wall" in wildland firefighting., Instead we try to juggle all balls safely between our hands and the air or retire them to the juggling balls bag until they can be safely redeployed, but thanks for your assessment. I agree with the THINK. Ab.

Didn't roll, just flopped on it's side on Antenna Ridge road below
Orleans Lookout. Minor bumps and scrapes, crew OK.

another: Only minor first aid injuries - American River crew buggy - TNF,
vehicle righted with a cat and removed,
crew still on Incident as of today.

hotlist updates

Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Parks (CA)
Firefighter David Quintero Killed In Off-Duty Accident

David Quintero, 22, a wildland firefighter who’d belonged to the park’s Crew 91 since 2005, was involved in a serious single-car accident at 5:30 a.m. on Sunday, August 13th. David was off-duty and heading eastbound on Highway 198 near the Horse Creek bridge when the accident occurred. He was flown by Life Flight to University Medical Center in Fresno, where he underwent brain surgery. He was then placed on life support, but succumbed to his injuries on Wednesday afternoon. A CISD debriefing was held for park staff yesterday morning.

David was also a staff sergeant with the 1072nd Transportation Company out of Fresno, California, and a recipient of the Bronze Star during his service in Iraq. A memorial service will be held at 10 a.m. on Tuesday, August 22nd, at the Three Rivers Memorial Building (43490 Sierra Drive). There will be a public viewing from 2 p.m. to 7 p.m. on Monday, August 21st, at Miller Memorial Chapel (1120 W. Goshen Avenue in Visalia).

Cards and letters can be sent to David's grandparents in Three Rivers: David Smalley and Peggy Blanchard, 41011 Meadow Drive, Three Rivers, CA 93271. In lieu of flowers, the family suggests donations to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in David's name. The Foundation can be reached by phone at 208-336-2996 or on their website at www.wffoundation.org. Click on "Giving" and then "In-Memory Donations." [Submitted by Jody Lyle, Fire Information Specialist]

Just a reminder PLEASE be careful out there and not just on the fire line. We have lost enough folks!!!

Been There

I was able to attend to HT-790 memorial in Happy Camp and it was put on very nicely to honor our brothers. The USFS honor guard and bagpipe player were there as well a quite a few firefighters with representative from may different agencies, USFS, CDF, CHP, several other county/city depts. and agencies.

To everyone on the lines with me stay heads up and stay safe!!

Norcal Firegirl

Also support the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. They are helping the families out and are a very tremendous organization. My thanks go out to them.

My prayers go out to the family and friends of the fallen.

SPFDBC

Readers, would you please copy off this message from Heather's mom and get it to the crews. Thanks. Ab.

Members of the Smith River Crew from the Six Rivers National Forest, engine crews from the Tahoe National Forest, and interagency Alaska Crew 2 detoured from the Titus Fire to pay respect to an engine crew that was involved in a tragic accident just a few miles away.

During the early morning hours of July 28th, 2002, five firefighters from Lassen National Forest Engine 11 were patrolling the Stanza Fire when the engine left the road and rolled down a steep embankment. Three of the firefighters died and two sustained serious injuries and were flown to Redding for treatment.

The Stanza Fire was ignited by lightning on July 22, 2002 and grew quickly in the dense vegetation and hot, dry conditions. It was about 10 miles south of Happy Camp.

Conditions were similar when firefighters responded to the Titus Fire this year. This fire started on July 23, 2006 by lightning. It is located about 13 miles south of Happy Camp. It grew quickly in the dense vegetation and hot, dry conditions.

The firefighters visited the Stanza Memorial that was placed near the accident site. They maintained the access to the site and the memorial site itself by clearing vegetation and fallen trees. Mostly, they paid respect to the fallen firefighters of four years ago:

• Steven Kent Oustad, 51, the module leader of Engine 11
• Heather DePaolo, 28, the operator of Engine 11
• John Self,19, firefighter on Engine 11

“We’re very thankful the crews took it upon themselves to maintain this memorial,” stated Incident Commander Mike Wakoski. “It’s important that we continue to honor the sacrifices of our fellow firefighters, even in this remote country during the hectic business of managing a large wildfire.”

Self Memorial photo: The memorial site for John Self. USFS photo by Dan Felix.
Smith River Crew: Members of the Smith River Crew in front Lassen Engine 11 Memorial. USFS photo by Dan Felix.

I am the Krassel Helitack Program Supervisor. On behalf of the Krassel
Family, thank you for all the kind sentiments sent our way.

The accident investigation team is wrapping up their work here. As you can
tell by the rather distasteful images displayed by the media, there is
little left of 5EV, but the team indicates that they found some good clues.
There were no witnesses to the crash and no communications from the
aircraft indicating the problem. It will be a very long time before we
have any answers to the many questions in our minds.

We are all still hoping to wake from this nightmare, but reality is setting
in more each day. We will miss each of our friends in ways that can not be
expressed. Once we have provided them the honor they deserve, we will
determine our path to rebuilding Krassel.

Celebrations of our friends lives will take place as follows:

Micheal Lewis - August 19 @ 1300 Jug Mountain Ranch

Monica Zajanc - August 19 @ 1600 Brundage Mountain

Quin Stone - August 26 @ 1300 United Methodist Church, Emmett, ID

Lilly Patten - August 26 @ TBD Mt. Tabor Park, Portland, OR

Those planning to attend on August 19 should be aware that these will be
casual events. Feel free to represent your crew.

For those in the media, we ask that you respect our friends and their
families during this very difficult time. Please think of how you would
feel if your child was in the aircraft.

Thank You All.

Doug Marolf

Doug, please give our love and best wishes to all. We hold you in our hearts. Ab.

"Rated" doesn't necessarily mean "failure proof." In fact, these radiant
style heaters are not approved for indoor use in Canada, because the
Canadian government simply isn't convinced that a sleeping person should
bet their lives on an inexpensive device to detect oxygen deficiencies.
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the Canadian government, because
detecting oxygen deficiencies is a pretty rough substitute for
monitoring CO levels.

Bottom Line: Use only heaters rated for indoor use, scrupulously maintain
clearances around the heater, and make sure your tent has an opening near
the heater for fresh air to enter.

Remember- Safety is a habit you can live with.

State Safety Office

PS. A great guy (horse logger) out of Corvallis has offered to help Krs on the 28th. Any others out there?

Be Safe out there.

Klamathman

Ab has verified that there was a single vehicle accident at end of shift yesterday with no more than minor injuries. More details will be released soon, no doubt. Drive safe all. The roads are narrow; smoke often impairs the view.

What else can I say to ease the pain? Be proud of who you all are.

LL

Thanks, LL. Please let us know the time so those who wish to share a moment of silence in solidarity can do so. I will. Ab.

• Driving too fast for conditions and roads with top-heavy engines
• Backing engines without spotters and positive communication with crew
  members on the ground
• Inattentive driving, focusing on the radio, conversations, gps, cell
  phone, maps, etc...
• Following distance associated with heavy load stopping (engine) stopping

Some of the Indirect Factors:

• Dehydration resulting in the loss/delay of muscle coordination and
  reaction time
• Extended fatigue effecting decision making, reaction time, etc...

Monitor your crews, due to the length and duration of this fire season,
don't hesitate to give your folks an extra day off if you feel they need
it...

Excellent job so far with safety... Keep up the good work!

DL (forwarded from a theysaider in Colorado)

Be safe all. Watch out for each other. If something needs to change for safety's sake, speak up. Ab.

The news of the helicopter crash with four people on board breaks my heart. As a mom, who has a son who was a hot shot, heli-reppeller, and now is working in management at various helicopter bases and currently working the Potato fire I can relate. My son's wife is also in wildland fire. My very deepest sympathy to the families and friends. And I will remember them all in my daily prayers. My husband and I spent some time, a few years back at Krassel helicopter base with our son when he was assigned to that beautiful but lonely place at the top of the mountain and met the people at Krassel including one of the crew on the copter that crashed yesterday. We have visited Krassel helicopter base twice.

When you have someone who is in wildland firefighting everyone involved in wildland firefighting becomes a part of your family and any news, such as this sad news hits close to home. My son called early this morning to tell us the news, he always tries to call before we possibly see the news in the evening and worry and wonder if he is OK and let us know what is going on.

I keep all firefighters in my daily prayers and pray for their safety. I think too often the wildland firefighters are forgotten and unless you have someone in wildland fire, most people don't realize the great risk involved fighting wildland fires. Also all the hard work of the people behind the scenes, dispatchers, food service crews, etc, etc. Many thanks to all of you.

Be Safe.

Fire mom from Wheeling, IL.

You put it very well, Fire mom. Ab.

Investigation Teams Arriving Today

McCall, ID - A seven member United States Forest Service accident investigation team and a representative from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will be arriving in McCall today to begin the investigation of yesterday's helicopter crash on the Payette National Forest.

The Team consists of aviation and safety experts who will have the responsibility of investigating the accident for the agency. They work in conjunction with the NTSB who is charged with investigating aircraft incidents on a national basis.

Aviation experts on the team investigate a variety of topics related to aircraft operations, procedures, regulations and policies. They will conduct interviews, review records and documentation, and visit the accident site.

Valley County Sheriff Patti Bolen will release the victim's names upon notification of next of kin.

The accident scene is about 18 miles west of Yellow Pine near the junction of the East Fork South Fork Salmon River Road and the South Fork Salmon River Road. The helicopter was not carrying a water bucket and was on a personnel transport mission.

Valley County Coroner Marvin Heikkila has retrieved the bodies which are currently in McCall.

For more information, please contact Boyd Hartwig at (208) 634-0784 or 634-0804.

Date: Aug. 13, 2006
Contact: Boyd Hartwig (208) 634-0784

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Four Fatalities Confirmed in Helicopter Crash

McCall, ID - A contract helicopter assigned to fire suppression duties on the Payette National Forest crashed today at approximately 5 p.m., killing the contract pilot and three Payette National Forest employees. The names of those killed in the crash will be released in coordination with the Valley County Sheriff's office once next of kin are notified. The helicopter was ferrying Payette National Forest employees to the Payette National Forest's Krassel Guard Station before it crashed on the South Fork Salmon River Road about 18 miles west of the town of Yellow Pine.

The crash was reported to the Payette National Forest Dispatch office by a member of the Eastern Area Fire Use Management Team at 5:28 p.m. after he came onto the scene while driving on the South Fork Salmon River Road. The first emergency response was by Payette National Forest firefighters. A Payette National Forest law enforcement officer arrived on the scene soon after and reported no survivors at the crash site.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has been notified of the crash and that agency will investigate the cause of the crash.

The helicopter, a single engine A Star AS350B-3, was operated on contract to the Payette National Forest.

Few additional details are available at this time. Calls on this incident will be taken starting at 0800 tomorrow morning (Aug.14) at the following numbers: (208) 634-0798, (208) 634-0784, or (208) 634-0991.

The Honorable Mouse

Our deep condolences as well. The Abs.

Just received some terrible news that breaks my heart. The <snip> helicopter
crashed, pilot plus two did not survive.

--prayers to all.

-Dozershot

Firemark, you have a point, but no one was agreeing or denying an incident occurred. We Abs prefer that information not be shared until next of kin is notified and details are released. In addition, all those with loved ones working on, around or near helicopters or on the fires in the district become anxious when partial info is released prior to notifying families. Once news is reported through regular news media like the Idaho Statesman, the story has a life of its own and we will usually post links to it here.

I am glad posters on the hot list forum are reminding fellow posters to be compassionate with releasing information. Not only firefighter families, but also news media read the hot list forum. I would hope that before posters hit send to the hot list they consider what they would feel like if they had died and their spouse or teenage son or daughter got the news that way. Again, Firemark, this is not to admonish you, but to thank posters who have sensitive information for the responsibility they assume for all our families when posting on that forum.

As soon as families have been notified, please let us know and we'll post details here. Ab.

Four people, including three Payette National Forest employees on fire-suppression duties, died Sunday in a helicopter crash about 18 miles west of Yellow Pine.

A contract pilot was ferrying the employees to the Krassel Guard Station when the single-engine A Star helicopter crashed about 5 p.m. on the South Fork Salmon River Road, Payette National Forest spokesman Boyd Hartwig said.

Hartwig would not disclose the duties of the forest employees Sunday night to avoid identifying the people before next of kin are notified.

The cause of the crash was not known Sunday night, he said.
The crash was discovered at 5:28 p.m. by a member of the Eastern Area Fire Use Management team who was driving on the road, Hartwig said.

All four people aboard were apparently dead when they were discovered, he said. The crash started a fire, which was suppressed by a responding fire engine, he said.

The National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration will investigate the crash; representatives of both agencies are expected to arrive in McCall today, Hartwig said.

www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060813/NEWS01/60813001

Stanley

"The Need for Z's" talk with Dr. Brian Sharkey from MTDC about shift length
and 14 versus 21 day assignments; it's at
www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/08/13/news/top/news01.txt

Mollysboy

Welcome to theysaid, Gerhard. Sweet site. Ab.

It seems hard to believe that it was only 1 year ago that our fire fighting community lost Ernie Johnson. Such a sad loss for his friends and family. Ernie will always be remembered for all that he did. He was a great IC who put firefighters first. He was an innovator and and an inventor. He was a great friend who knew how to be leader. He was a great listener and story teller. He could always be counted on. He was simply put "one of the best". His presence is missed on the Olympic peninsula and also with his airspace coordination buddies.

So take time this weekend to hug your friends and let them know how they have made a difference in your life. We get so wrapped up in fire season doing what we do because we are the types who give our "all"..... but in the long run, it is our friends and family who matter the most. So remember the ones who have gone before us...... and take time to enjoy the ones you are with.

Ernie's friend

They are self-contained 1000 gallon tanks, with a built -in BB4 pump and foam unit. You fly them in with a helicopter to a ridgetop, and you fill them with buckets, and instant hoselay in the middle of nowhere. You only need one person to run the pump. They seem to be working well on the Orleans Complex. Another thing being tested here is aerial delivery of Barricade Gel in buckets. It has been working OK also, but nothing spectacular.

-MJ

My understanding of the term "sketch mapping" is when subject matter experts (FBANs, SITL, Foresters, etc) go up in the air with a base map (topo, aerial imagery, etc) and they sketch information relative to the issue (fire, bark beetle, and more).

Unfortunately the imagery acquisition process is very expensive so it is not financially feasible to simply get the imagery whenever it is wanted to meet the mapping mission's needs. So my best guess looking at the area they worked for and knowing absolutely nothing other than that.... Some sort of stressor is affecting tree mortality or other forest health issue, the forest deems it is a potential threat to resource health or public safety, but to get an overall view of the issue it was determined a flight was the best method. The person obtains base maps from USGS topos or GIS and will be GPSing and writing their observations down as they fly.

As for whether it's necessary- normally people don't like to blow their budgets and flight time is expensive.

By the way RJM- sounds like you have some good experience- we should have a beer sometime.

Smiles,
GISgirl

I just watched the clip of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation you posted. I must say wow. That short clip really means alot. It got me thinking about all the firefighters we have lost over the years. The Storm King segment hit close because although I was not in the fire service at the time of the fire. I was eventually on a Helitack Crew. I have some business in Colorado in early October of this year. I plan on making a stop at the site to visit the memorial. You did a great job with the clip. I am no longer a Wildland firefighter. I am now a career firefighter for a municipal agency. I just wanted to thank you and Ab for posting the clip. I hope it makes people aware of the dangers of our job. I also hope it makes people think and use their training so we can stop having fatalities out on the line. Once again Great work.

Firenorm.

52 Club, join now. It's our safety net when things go bad. Ab.

Todd

Thanks
RJM

"About 60% of the time, the inhaled spores do not cause any clinical illness. The other 40% of the time, a flulike illness develops about two weeks after the inhalation. In most individuals who have a normal immune response, the symptoms of cough, low-grade fever, and malaise go away after a week or so, and are soon forgotten. For a small minority of people with impaired immunity, the fungus can spread through the body, and produce a life threatening illness." (Arizona Respiratory Center, 03 Feb 2006)

The effects of smoke:

"The effects of smoke range from eye and respiratory tract irritation to more serious disorders, including reduced lung function, bronchitis, exacerbation of asthma, and premature death. Studies have found that fine particles are linked (alone or with other pollutants) with increased mortality and aggravation of pre-existing respiratory and cardiovascular disease. In addition, particles are respiratory irritants, and exposures to high concentrations of particulate matter can cause persistent cough, phlegm, wheezing and difficulty breathing. Particles can also affect healthy people, causing respiratory symptoms, transient reductions in lung function, and pulmonary inflammation. Particulate matter can also affect the body's immune system and make it more difficult to remove inhaled foreign materials from the lung, such as pollen and bacteria." (Department of Environmental Health, County of Missoula , 2001)

"Chronic stress seems to impair the immune system's capacity to respond."
(APA, 2002, www.apa.org/releases/chronicstress.html)

Immune System Response and Nutrition:
(www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13904)

Long term complications such as chronic pulmonary coccidioidomycosis (NIH, 2006) "can develop 20 or more years after initial infection which may not have been recognized, diagnosed, or treated at the time."

Lobotomy

“There were all kinds of rumors. Turned out that 3 members of one of the crews brought a staph infection with them. They were hospitalized. Caused a good deal of commotion, but upon inspection by a doctor, turned out these were the only ones infected and the crews are all back to work.”

Ab, sign me…..

Information Diva who has been in ROSS for a week now with no assignment yet. : (

Good luck on an assignment. Thanks for tracking down the true story. Thanks to ALL who clarify the rumors. Ab.

On the Bar Complex 4 or 5 days ago a young firefighter from a non-agency crew was Life Flight-ed out. I don't remember if it was on a dare or on a bet but he picked up a small brown snake, bit off its head, chewed and swallowed it and then ate the rest of the snake. I don't know if he swallowed it or chewed it before swallowing, but he ingested it. We have small brown snakes (pencil diameter) that are baby rattlers without much of a rattle array yet, but with telltale diamond shaped head with small fangs and venom sacks. We also have small brown gopher snakes without the "poisonous snake" shaped head. A vet friend said that theoretically you could chew and swallow the head of a venomous snake and if you had no ulcers or tears in your gut, you might be OK -- if it didn't get in your blood stream. He said if the guy got stomach cramps it was more likely from Salmonella, that snakes carry a load of that bacteria.

So what happened next to the young man? He didn't tell anyone; but those in on the chew and swallow demo knew what he'd done. He didn't eat or drink anything for a day or more -- I heard -- and he felt bad. He was dehydrated. Somehow the word got out or he was in not-so-good shape and he was Life Flight-ed to the tune of ~$8,000 (if history is a guide to cost), which was passed on to his employer no doubt. I doubt his organization was pleased. (It's a good outfit so I'm not saying who... It was his silliness, not theirs. They have other crews who are doing excellent work in the wilderness, and working in our vertical terrain is not a piece of cake.)

I think this is a prime example of human factors that relate to emotions hijacking the reasoning brain.
The brain has 3 layers:

• the brain stem,
• the midbrain (the puppy behind the screen door) and
• the cortex or the reasoning brain (human evolutionary addition).

The neuronal circuit that translates perceptions and passes them to the emotional brain (via the amygdala) is as much as 15 seconds faster than the other neuronal circuit that passes the message to the reasoning brain.

If a situation you find yourself in -- or one that you create -- is "charged" either for the positive or for the negative, it's got a very strong and practiced (almost hardwired) neural net to the emotional brain (that darn puppy).

Say you're in a situation that has had fear, pain or horror associated with it in the past. Your "puppy" will try with all its might to burst through the screen door to avoid that situation again -- and it can break loose faster than your conscious, reasoning brain can even see what it's about to do.

Experienced firefighters often have the hair on their neck stand up if the fire is going gunnysack and this happens faster than they can consciously say "the fire is about to blow up, RUN" from cues reaching their reasoning brain. They usually don't even know what the cues are... Before they know it, the "puppy behind the screen door" is out and hijacks the body in an attempt to avoid something that might kill it. Hopefully that pup is trained to take the escape route to the safety zone dropping tools asap.

Each of us has "the puppy". Each of us has our own fast-acting neural network stimulated by our own experiences that have been punished or rewarded. The "puppy" can be trained to react appropriately if we know what high risk/low frequency events we're training for and if we know our issues. (I think that's one reason why Ted Putnam advocated mindfulness training (meditation) years ago.)

It's not just the negative that can affect choices in an emotional moment. The neural networks that have been created as a result of rewards or pleasure can also figure into human factors choices, especially when people don't yet have much experience with knowing and directing their own minds (and other body parts).

I think that probably happened in this snake eating incident. Say in the past you got Kudos and High Fives for taking a dare or taking someone up on a bet, and you basked in the attention you got afterwards... Your "puppy" could burst through the screen door tail wagging, wiggling with excitement, happy. I remember some kinda stupid things I did when young where I was seeking the excitement, the sense of accomplishment, the fun of being the first... including a trip out New River gorge with my sister, two inner-tubes and the dog when I was pregnant (not too much, but yikes). Our puppies were loose and on the run and our reason was hijacked the first cliff we jumped off into the river below. There was no going back... Luckily, it turned out just fine.

What was the snake? Someone connected with the snake incident thought it was a little rattler.
But... we have a lot of snakes. It could have been a little gopher snake.

Mellie

LIONA

At approximately 20:30 hours, the engine reached a point on the northeast edge of the fire. After mopping up a hotspot at the location, the Engine Operator and one crewmember (firefighter #1) were seated in the engine, and two other crewmembers (firefighter #2 and firefighter #3, the injured firefighter) were outside the engine rolling up hose. At approximately 20:56 hours, the Engine Operator had a radio conversation with an Engine Module Leader who was just arriving at the northeast portion of the fire with a group of engines. The Engine Module Leader agreed that Engine 2692 should leave the location and fill the water tank. Firefighter #2 overheard this conversation on the handheld radio, and firefighter #2 and firefighter #3 proceeded to walk from the driver's side rear of the engine around the back of the engine, heading to the passenger door of the engine. As the two firefighters reached a point a few feet from and directly behind the engine, Firefighter #2 noticed a lizard on the ground, and both firefighters stopped and bent down to look at it. Statements indicate that the lizard ran up the leg of firefighter #2, causing her to react and momentarily distracting both firefighters. At this point, Firefighter #2 noticed that the engine was backing up toward them, and both firefighters attempted to move out of the path of the engine. Firefighter #2 was struck by the engine and pushed into Firefighter #3, knocking him to the ground, facing up, with his feet toward the engine. As the engine proceeded to back up, Firefighter #3's legs became entangled in the undercarriage of the engine, causing his knees to be drawn up toward his chest, injuring his back.

As Firefighter #3 was being run over, Firefighter #2 ran from the rear of the engine toward the driver's side door, and shouted for the Engine Operator to stop the engine. The Engine Operator reacted immediately and stopped the engine, and then moved the engine forward a few feet, freeing firefighter #3. The Engine Operator immediately notified the Engine Module Leader of a medical emergency. The Engine Module Leader notified the incoming Type 3 Incident Commander of the medical emergency, and the ICT3 contacted South Central Idaho Interagency Dispatch Center and requested a Life Flight helicopter respond to the scene for medical evacuation. Personnel on the scene stabilized Mr. Burk and prepared a landing spot for the incoming helicopter. The Life Flight helicopter arrived on scene at 21:50 hours, and transported Mr. Burk to Magic Valley Regional Medical Center.

/s/ Jeff Arnberger, Investigation Team Leader

Cy

Region 4 Risk Management
USDA Forest Service,
Intermountain Region
324-25th Street
Ogden, UT 84401

Preliminary Mishap Notification July 30, 2006

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AN SUBJECT TO CHANGE

Date/Time: Friday, July 28, 2006, 1145 MDT
Unit: Region 4, Boise NF, Forest Health Protection
Location: Deadwood Reservoir Airstrip
Aircraft: Cessna TU206G
Mission: Sketch Mapping
Injuries: None
Fatalities: None

Damage: Damage was limited to area of fuselage tail section. Extending approximately 10 inches left and right from 6:00 center line from approx. fuselage station 166.40 to 230.187. Damage to skin in this area and denting of bulkheads and stringers and elevator pulley bracket in this area.

Narrative: Forest Health Protection employee was conducting a sketch-mapping mission of the Landmark Basin, Boise National Forest in a FS Carded Cessna TU 206G when they decided to land at Deadwood Reservoir backcountry airstrip for lunch.

The pilot of the aircraft stated that on final approach to the airstrip approximately 50 feet above the runway the aircraft instantly sank. He applied full power, however, in spite of the full power the aircraft continued to sink straight down to the runway. The aircraft hit hard enough to bounce the aircraft about 20 yards and right of the centerline and the right wheel went into about a 2 foot ditch. Pilot applied left full rudder and left aileron and left brake. The wheel came out of the ditch but the tail wacked the ditch berm fairly hard. After the aircraft came to rest the pilot shut down the aircraft and inspected the aircraft for damage. The pilot is a FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic.

The pilot discussed the extent of damage to the FS employee and convinced the employee that they had no significant damage that would hinder flight capabilities. The pilot and employee got back on board the aircraft and then flew the aircraft to Cascade airport (approx 15 min. away).

After landing at the Cascade airport notification were made regarding this incident.

The investigation is ongoing.

Team: QTI - Jim Morrison - Aviation Safety Manager
Scribe - Barb Hall, WO Aviation Safety Specialist
Maintenance - Kevin Bailey, Region 4 Aviation Maintenance Inspector

Information Contact: Jim Morrison - 801-625-5510

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forwarded Message that came with the Mishap Notification:

Hello Everyone, Please see attached notification.

Please brief to your employees: Do NOT get back aboard any aircraft that
has been involved in an accident or incident.

FSM 5720.3 Policy states: Only use safe operations and equipment. Do not
procure or use aviation equipment, methods, or techniques that may
adversely affect the safety of operations.

By getting on board an aircraft that was involved in an accident or
incident you are risking possible further injury. Only our Aircraft
Maintenance Inspectors, (after a return to service (proven airworthy) by
the FAA licensed Airframe and Power Plant mechanic) can return our aircraft
to contract availability (i.e. safe for our employees to ride on again).

Any questions about this please call me!

Jim Morrison
Region 4 Aviation Safety Manager

Ah ha, I found someone!!! It is hard for me to understand where people who like it are coming from, when CDF, USFS, and BLM, not to mention the field folks, think the program is inadequate. One AOBD quoted the program as "being a piece of junk". Yeah, the reports in ROSS are very good, but the functional value of the program isn't there. Was this program developed from the top down? Did they have GS-5 and 7 dispatchers provide their input? How about Center Managers? And by the way, the folks I work with are well trained in mobilization procedures and the utilization of ROSS. So, it is NOT a "chair to computer" issue.

Picker

Todd

Thanks, that's just the kind of help I was looking for.

F

Thanks Dick M for coming to the rescue. Ab.

Safety Alert
Heat Related Illness

Discussion: Due to record breaking high temperatures experienced across the west, numerous cases of heat related illness have been reported. There is a concern that established guidelines are not being followed and/or personnel are unaware of the seriousness of a heat-induced illness.

Heat-induced illness is a result of the body's inability to cope with heat. This condition can manifest itself as a minor symptom or a life-threatening emergency. While recognition and treatment are important, prevention is the key. HEAT RELATED ILLNESS IS PREVENTABLE.

Becoming acclimated to working in a hot environment takes time. If a person is physically fit, it takes four to eight days to adapt to these conditions. This acclimation process continues for several weeks. Fatigue or alcohol consumption can delay the acclimation process and may put a person at risk for a heat illness if an intense activity is conducted following either of these conditions. Firefighters must be informed of potential factors affecting physical activity during hot weather. Individuals not acclimated or physically fit can suffer a heat-induced illness at lower levels of heat and work activity.

The Fitness and Work Capacity, Second Edition (NFES 1596) provides a table (page 29) with activity and performance guidance for different heat environments. It is important to note that a temperature above 95oF with any amount of humidity will put you in the "high" zone. Most firefighting operations occur in this "high" zone. Increased hydration and increased breaks are required for any physical activity performed during "high" periods. Seek shade during breaks if possible and stay hydrated.

Water is the primary form of fluid replacement. Firefighters should be reminded to hydrate before, during and after strenuous work activities. Before engaging in work activities, drink 20 ounces of cool water or a sports drink. During the operational period take frequent rest breaks and drink 8 ounces of water every 15 minutes. (1 Qt. /hour) If cold water is available, it is preferred. Consider a carbohydrate/electrolyte sports beverage such as Gatorade or equivalent as a portion of fluid replacement - this will help retain fluids and maintain energy and electrolyte levels. Consuming a sports beverage as part of re-hydrating will assist in avoiding a condition know as Hyponatremia. Hyponatremia develops when the concentration of sodium is diluted in the bloodstream. Exercise-induced hyponatremia occurs when this phenomenon is caused by an excess of water intake during exercise or work.

Avoid performance beverages such as Red Bull, Rock Star etc. These beverages contribute to dehydration. Keep track of your urine output. As a rule of thumb if you haven't urinated in three hours you may becoming dehydrated. (Drink More Water!)

Regardless of the job performed heat-induced illness prevention is a concern. Additional information about preventing this illness can be found at the following web sites or you can contact your Regional Fire Operations Safety Officer for more information.

MTDC Heat Stress - http://fsweb.mtdc.wo.fs.fed.us/php/library_card.php?p_num=9851%202841 (FS web)
OSHA Heat Stress Card - www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3154.pdf
6 Minutes for Safety - www.nifc.gov/sixminutes/dsp_discussion.php?id=67


/s/ Peter Tolosano
Peter Tolosano
R-5 Fire Operations Safety Officer

I put some people in touch behind the scenes and I think it will yield results. Thanks everyone. Ab..

I wouldn't hold my breath, no pun intended, waiting for the government to pick up the tab for testing for Valley Fever.
Pin pointing the exact location for the original contact with the fungus would be next to impossible. Just driving through an area known to have the Coccidioidomysis spores in the soil during a dust storm will most likely expose the individual to the disease. Who is to say whether you picked up the spores traveling south on I-5 through the San Joaquin Valley to a fire or on the family vacation to Disneyland?

As to coming down with the symptoms of Valley Fever during a two week fire assignment, just about anyone would have the symptoms. It's called FATIGUE!

Should the government spend money testing everyone for Valley Fever that shows signs of fatigue? I think there would be better ways to spend tax dollars. If an individual has real concerns about the issue, perhaps they should seek testing on their own. (Personal responsibility vs Big Brother, (with deep pockets.)) OK, you've tested positive, now what?

You may have been carrying the spores for years and once you test positive, you will always test positive! Fatigue may be diagnosed as Valley Fever because of a years prior exposure.

You might be surprised at the percentage of individuals that test positive with no symptoms.

Valley Fever a problem, yes to a relatively small percent of the population. To be overly concerned, NOT ME!

Stu

Casey and others

I am glad to see that someone seems to be getting someone’s attention about Valley Fever. I can confirm that this stuff can really lay you out and cause long term health problems. The one thing I can say is if you think that you might be having symptoms of Valley Fever, fatigue, cough, chest pain, fever, rash, headache, joint aches, you really need to get aggressive with the Doctors about testing. Some Drs. really seem to have a problem with admitting they don’t know all the answers. Valley Fever is one of those things that can be real hard to diagnose. A negative result just means that it does not show up today. It does not mean that you do not have it. It can also be real critical who runs the tests.

I would strongly suggest that if you think you might have valley fever you do some web surfing and make yourself familiar with the in’s and out’s of this disease. A site I can suggest to start with is www.vfce.arizona.edu/. This site also has links to some Drs. that are real familiar with this problem and understand what it can take to get a good diagnosis.

It is found primarily in southern CA, AZ, NM, and west Texas. It is generally found in dry alkaline soils, particularly after some type of disturbance, think fire line, dusty roads, after earthquakes, construction sites, etc. It has been confirmed in the area around Dinosaur Nat Monument in CO also. If not picked up it can progress to the skin, spinal cord, brain, bone, loss of a lung, and other fun stuff. In about 10% of the cases it leads to death.

If someone wants to talk more about this Ab can give them my contact information

Been There

It is found fairly commonly in parts of Southern CA. I have a friend who was very ill for months with it and has permanent lung damage. She had a hard time getting a correct diagnosis. Ab.

The national mapping standard in the federal agencies is to use NAD83 (north American datum 1983) for data. While not all agencies have moved to this yet (I think the FS is still in the process) it is generally the standard in DOI. NAD83 is essentially equivalent to WGS84 which is the native language of GPS units.

First- all GPS units store locations in a geographic coordinate system (latitude/longitude) with the datum WGS84.
Second- a GPS unit can translate that and show it to you in different projections (geographic or UTM) and/or data (NAD 27 and 83)

Third- what you are referring to are not different coordinate systems (all three examples were geographic) but how the coordinates are expressed

Pilots (helo and fixed wing) use decimal minutes to communicate. The GIS people generally use decimal degrees when entering data in the system. The ground staff tends to use degrees minutes seconds. As long as everyone has thier GPS units set to the same datum and you are using enough numbers to get it accurate--- it's all ok. They are just different ways to say the same thing. I agree consistency would be nice but it's not foreseeable in the near future.

Inciweb projections/data - my understanding is that each map is originated from the incident it comes from- therefore the projection and datum will depend on the state, the administering agency, the GISS, and where the base data came from. I know this doesn't give you a definitive answer- but it's the current situation. If there is a lat/long grid or lat/long markings the datum should be printed on the maps produced on the fires (this is new in the GIS SOPs- Chapter 6 page 41).

On a side note- you can post-process or differentially correct GPS data (make it more accurate with lots of computer crunching after the fact)- but this is rarely done on a fire unless it is a resource specialist dealing with data such as cultural resources or a GISS has the software, time, and need to do it. Most fires use GPS units such as Garmins and simply collect data.

As for relying on GPS only and not using a compass or paper map- you'd have to be crazy. I'm a geek myself but I know power goes out, plotters go down, batteries die, or magnetic fields simply mess with your aura. Using the old school methods is simply redundancy and safety. Always have a paper map, a pen, a compass and the knowledge to use them. Computers and GPS are awesome and help you be efficient but they are not the solution- merely another tool.

As for Google earth-- I do not have enough time to properly research that tonight- stay tuned.
Stay safe and godspeed to the fallen,

GISgirl

The Aussies who are part of our theysaid community sent us the news release, posted below. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday 9 August 2006

FIREFIGHTERS DEPLOYED TO USA

Eleven NSW firefighters will be deployed to the United States of America tomorrow to manage fires in north western states such as Oregon and California as part of a force of 50 personnel from Australia and New Zealand.

Five NSW Rural Fire Service (RFS), three National Parks and Wildlife Service, two Forests NSW and one NSW Fire Brigades personnel will assist US firefighters for up to 35 days.

“NSW firefighters are recognised as among the best fire managers in the world,” said RFS Commissioner Phil Koperberg.

“The US has requested support in the form of incident managers and aviation specialists from NSW firefighting and land management agencies to fight forest fires currently affecting several states.

“NSW is providing highly skilled firefighters with experience in managing firefighting personnel through divisional command, planning containment strategies, logistic organisation and aircraft management.”

Most of the firefighters will leave Sydney airport at 2.30pm tomorrow bound for San Francisco, then the National Interagency Fire Centre in Boise, Idaho. Remaining crews will leave on Friday morning with seven West Australian firefighters for Los Angeles.

“NSW firefighters form part of an interagency team that has developed a reputation for providing the highest level of fire management at home in Australia and New Zealand, and on previous commitments to the USA,” said RFS Commissioner Phil Koperberg.

“This deployment will exercise the skills of our firefighters in the lead up to the NSW fire season, and share experiences with our colleagues in the USA.”

Australian and New Zealand firefighters travelled to the USA in 2000, 2002 and 2004

Sydney International Airportbr
Thursday 10 August 2006, 12.45pm

List of personnel follows

Background on US fires

USA – National Interagency Fire Centre fire updates

http://www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/nfn.html

USA – wildfire map

http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/lg_fire2.php

I'm with you. ROSS was developed from the top down and is a nightmare at
the IA level. When I bring this up I am always reminded that "it's not an
IA tool". Well then, why do I have to have it on my desk? Desks that used
to be handled by one person now take two. I won't even go into the "saves
paper" argument. This might be true if orders do not have to be printed and
faxed to multiple district / field offices.

NOPSer,

People in our shop have had all the training available in ROSS, and are
VERY capable dispatchers. They work with it as best the system allows. We
have had ROSS Subject Matter Expert's (SMEs) come out and tell us what we
have is as good as it's going to get. When I was told they were going to
work on some of the IA issues, especially aircraft, over a year ago. I
offered to be on the committee that was working on it. I was told that they
would be working on it at the National and GACC level. While it may work
great at the GACC and NICC level it is a cumbersome monster at an IA
center.

'nuff said.
BDF

First off ROSS was down actually 9 minutes today. On Sunday when there was no-one at the regional office was working, ROSS did not freeze or lock me out once, and working at the GACC level I am in at least four different session of ROSS at once, all different centers. The number of T1 lines and number of folks on that line have a lot to do with speed also how familiar folks are with the program. At NOPS we still use the intercom and can dispatch even if ROSS is slow or freezes up at a unit. Plus ROSS does not dispatch aircraft or ground resources, dispatchers do. ROSS does not fix the problem between the chair and the computer, only good training and practice does that.

ROSS is a great program and is getting better with each version that comes out. Data Delivery System which comes out of ROSS's data base is great for reports, data, and information that is available in seconds instead of hours.

NOPSer

Link to audio can be found here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5627725
click on this link, then click on "listen" after the link comes up.

They interviewed Mike Lohrey (about IC's etc. getting personal liability insurance post-Cramer). It's a good story, but they do not have the text posted online - only audio.

AK

KT

Normally I don't like to put information out sooner than I know most of the details but I received a call this afternoon reporting that 3 federal wildland firefighters who were on the Perkins fire near Santa Barbara are exhibiting signs of Valley Fever.

According to the same source, there appears to have been some confirmed cases among municipal firefighters.

Although this information is perhaps premature, firefighters need to be aware of the threat as previously posted. Although legislation in congress is pending for federal firefighters with respect to presumptive illnesses, it is likely the Gov't would not foot the bill for testing until and unless the illness is confirmed and determined to be job related.

The FWFSA is currently working with staff from Congresswoman Lois Capps' office as well as Senator Feinstein's office in the hope that should these cases be confirmed, the red tape associated with Federal OWCP can be reduced as much as possible so as to avoid excessive costs to the employees.

I would presume that as more information becomes available, it will be posted here.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Re: new virtual fire tour concept

we just finished a GIS mapping assignment on the foster gulch fire - in far eastern oregon - where we came up with a new public-info fire mapping product. it uses google earth and fire perimeter mapping to create a 'virtual tour' of the fire.

we're not doing this for commercial purposes - google won't let you make money off of their service - just like to share what we are up to, and are interested in seeing where this technology will go.

we'll be doing this on future assignments, and will be putting links to the tours on our website.

the prototype tours are online at:
http://www.northtreefire.com/gis/virtual.php

(you need to install the google earth software to take the tour).

thanks!

Zeke

JS

OA

Note: NWSA members receive a 10% discount!

You're technically correct that "Militia" is a military term, but for us old timers with "green underwear" it's always had a different meaning: the USFS militia refers to the folks in the outfit that aren't in firefighter jobs, getting the firefighter retirement program, but that drop everything and run when the fire whistle blows! Range Cons, Foresters, Admin folks, Wildlife Biologists, Archs, yes even Engineers are all active participants in the fire organization. The Pacific Northwest GACC had a T-1 IC named Doug Porter in the 1990's who was a professional engineer in his everyday job. When I was at MTDC, several of our younger Mechanical Engineers had been hotshots and Smokejumpers during their school years, so when we had hot July & August days here in Missoula, they came to work wearing Nomex pants so they could assist the Lolo NF Initial Attack forces as needed.

Look at the folks serving on T-1 and T-2 IMTs in Operations, Planning, Safety, Logistics and Finance: they too are the "Militia".

The militia was, and continues to be, a real strength in the USFS Fire program.

Dick Mangan

Ab hasn't.

(Ab note for newbies: Call When Needed; there's a link to the list of acronyms at the top of the page.)

also: www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_40212.shtml

Those gentlemen did not have to get involved; they did it because they cared
and obviously the boss said OK.

Way back when, in my home town, a family friend - a Shift Capt (and for a while
Acting Chief) of the city FD told me "if you ever need help, no matter where you
are, call the Fire Department, they will get you the help you need".

Guess it still holds true today.

RJM

Anyone know how long this budget cut and new rule thing is suppost to last? The forest's in southern California are having a hard time staffing up their engines, plus it's been hard on the folks like me not to even be on this year yet because of the budget cut and new rules.

About the new rules can anyone tell me what this new rule thing is? Thanks!

Cy

Well said. Small addition.....Within the FS, the "line officer" ie.
Forest Supervisor, Deputy, District Ranger is either the Agency
Administrator, or the Agency Administrator's Representative. That comes
through a letter of delegation. That letter is issued by name, and only
when the line officer has acquired the pre-requisite "core competencies".
When an assistant ranger fills in as "Acting" they do not automatically
carry the "delegation of authority" for wildland fire.....again, that is an
authority delegated by "name" not by position.

Old Fire Guy

• Multiple IMTs on multiple fires within a close-in geographic area (NOT A
  GACC) - NMAC can order an Area Command to handle on the ground
  command and control issues.
• Multiples entities in a same said area with multiple incidents can also set
  up a (local) MMAC - MultiAgency Coordinating Group - to handle allocation
  and prioritization in the same area.

It's about the same way the national level works but at a stop down; there
can be multiple Area Commands and multiple MACs engaged in different GACC
areas at the same time - but the model is the same just like ICS is the
same ; follow the same protocols.

As for assigning the incidents to IMTs - only Line Officers or Agency
Administrators can sign off on the DOAs.
What makes it confusing, albeit, is when at a level like NPL -V - with
people "acting" for people - it can get confusing / but as a rule Regional
Fire Directors DO NOT sign DOAs and have no Line Authority.............
Remember the final objective is to leave the incident in the hands of the
local unit no worse for wear - physically, politically, and with
communities. -- Hope this helps


-- "Fork in the trail"

Also special thanks to Vicki for all her help with the Eldorado Shots, the
significant other of the FF who got injured near Twin Falls, and the pilots
assigned to Northern Cal fires. Be safe all. I agree / nature is doing
her thing. We're on a cycle. Northern California is experiencing its 20
year hit.

Spurred by concerns that agency plans would reduce national fire suppression capabilities, appropriations committees in both houses of Congress have passed language prohibiting outsourcing studies involving personnel who support wildfire suppression activities. Nonetheless, the Forest Service recently briefed the President’s White House Office of Management and Budget that it will proceed with outsourcing studies affecting agency fire-fighters regardless of whether this language is passed into law.

Outsourcing studies determine which employee groupings or functions will be put out for bid among private contractors. Forest Service plans would not spare employees who are part of the agency’s “fire militia” from potential job loss. For example, as many as 2,000 Forest Service fire militia members are included in the agency’s planned outsourcing feasibility study of staff performing data collection and analysis required by the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA).

Fire militia members work in a variety of “day jobs,” but are certified for critical fire suppression duties, many of which require years of training and experience on fires to acquire. Fire militia members are regularly dispatched to fight fires throughout the country.

“We just went to the highest wildfire risk level, National Preparedness Level 5, with several regions experiencing major incidents which have the potential to exhaust all agency fire resources” stated Casey Judd, Business Manager of the FWFSA. “The Forest Service simply cannot afford to give away fire-fighting capacity, regardless of the reason.”

“There is broad bi-partisan agreement that the Forest Service competitive sourcing program is an unmitigated disaster,” observed Bill Dougan, President of the NFFE Forest Service Council, noting that a Government Accountability Office (GAO) review is slated to begin following a bi-partisan expression of concern. “It makes sense to put this program on hold until the GAO audit can be completed.”

In addition to fire-fighting, fire militia employees respond to a wide range of emergencies, ranging from hurricanes to outbreaks of avian viruses, such as Exotic Newcastle Disease. The Incident Command System used by the fire militia has been so successful that President Bush ordered the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to duplicate the structure.

“These outsourcing plans threaten to FEMA-ize the Forest Service by atomizing its operations into disposable portions and sacrificing its large-scale incident management capabilities,” added PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch, pointing to the irony of the Bush administration using the current Forest Service Incident Command System as a model for reforming FEMA. “Unfortunately, delays in enacting appropriations legislation may allow the Forest Service to begin the contracting process before Congress can put a stop to it.”

Both Jeff and Jesse remain in the Lions Burn Care Unit at University Medical Center, Las Vegas. Both are recovering from debridement surgery on Friday. The surgeon has applied a synthetic skin to protect their burns and aid in the healing. Jeff will be re-evaluated soon to see how his burns are healing. Jesse will need skin graft surgery to the back of his legs sometime early this week. Kevin is at home with his family and will be back to work in a couple of weeks.

Vicki Minor from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation flew in Friday and assisted here in Las Vegas with the families. Their support has been tremendous for the Gehlhausens, Shirleys, and Breitweisers. Please visit their website at www.wffoundation.org and spread the word on the 52 club. Thanks again for everyone's support. Jeff, Jesse, Kevin, their families, and the Eldorado Hotshots appreciate it.

We have set up email accounts for Jeff, Jesse, and Kevin to receive messages. Their email addresses are:

jeff.enfihc@gmail.com
jesse.enfihc@gmail.com
kevin.enfihc@gmail.com

Drop them a message and we will see that they get it. Continue to keep them in your thoughts and prayers. Please pass this on to all. More to come....

Mike Sandoval

Thanks, Sandy. We continue to hold them and their families in our thoughts and prayers. Ab.

The Interagency Incident Management Team that's called in to work on any fire comes in at the request of the Line or Agency Officer in charge. In our case that's Joyce Anderson who is the District Ranger on the Shasta-T where the fires are burning. Her boss is also a "Line Officer". She's the Shasta-Trinity National Forest Supervisor, Sharon Heywood. Sharon's boss is the Regional (or is it Acting Regional?) Forester Bernie Weingardt.

The Fire Chief (Fire Management Officer or Chief Officer) for each forest (most of them) also work for their "Line Officer" (as Gizmo says Agency Administrator; I add "Direct line of Command from Congress"). They do not work directly for the Regional Director or Acting R5 Director of Fire and Aviation Management (Ed Hollenshead). There are a few forests in CA where the Chief Officer can act independently of, but in consultation with, the Line Officer.

My point is that Forests officially give their own fire people their marching orders. Forests also give marching orders to IMTs who they have called in to manage an incident on their forest. Rogue Rivers, it's my understanding that the Regional (Acting) Director of Fire does not determine resources on the ground or how resources are allocated to fires that are burning. Maybe I have this completely wrong. I thought an independent National MAC group or Area Command would do that when resources get in short supply.

A Regional Director of FAM might work with the Regional Forester to come up with some general guidelines or considerations, but the local Line Officers (anointed by Congress) would never be left out of the loop, would they?

Mellie

I just checked in with the team. They caught the slopover (Div I). I think we're still good at holding it on Jim Jam Ridge and over to the SW. Today's plan is to burn out the hole in the doughnut on that SW corner (Div Z). If we can accomplish that and the crews can hold it or catch any spots and then mop up, we may have that corner nearest residences and ranches buttoned down. I'm hoping.

Mellie

Denny resident

If you have a fast enough modem, here's a good option for maps of the northern CA incidents and others. Go to InciWeb: http://www.inciweb.org/ Go to the bottom right and click on Google Earth Feed. If you've never done this before, download and install the Google Earth program. Make sure the "Layers" option on the left has Google Earth Community checked as well as the standard default: terrain, roads, borders, and populated places. Then zoom in. The fires and complexes have yellow hats, the webcams can be clicked on, you can zoom right in to the Bar or the Orleans or the Klamath, etc. Terrain is steep. The Bar Complex is hiding behind the SHF Lightning Complex helmet, although the two big fires of the Bar Complex that are not contained are some distance away near Denny. In mucking around, use the hand to move the earth. Look for the i that starts with 1974. It's near where the Denny Road takes off of HWY 299 at Hawkins Bar. Took me a while to find it. The helmet on the map is misleading. Maybe the folks at Inciweb will fix it. Ab.

Maybe just maybe the Bake and other fires of the Bar complex are doing some good, perhaps, there are long term benefits to the resources you mentioned with this fire, as opposed to this idea of destruction that we often associate with fire. But to start pushing dozer line into wilderness areas in the name of resource protection is indeed a slippery slope (sorry). I know this fire brings to mind the infamously smoky Big Bar complex and months of toil, however the intensity of this fire from an outsider's perspective seems more constructive than destructive. If we want California's largest wilderness area out our back door, I think we must accept the limitations on firefighting in the wilderness, but more important is a shift in our perception of fire and its effect on the land.

007

Todd,

I heard or saw something similar. Inciweb or 209 maybe if not someplace else.
I think I've got Oldtimers early, or maybe its too much smoke with too much
of whatever carbon ...oxide in it.

Question is, would that make sense? As I see it, many of these complexes are
just getting their legs and we're just getting the feel for the terrain, the forest line officers,
etc. Crews are exhausted. Many are timing out in the next few days and they don't
want local to fire RnR but need to go home- to take care of business, recover from poison
oak, catch their breath away from smoke, squeeze their honey, hug their kid.

Teams from out of region are being called home too. Big fire is a month early in CA,
usually we go everywhere else to help early in the season then when fire hits here shot
crews and teams from other regions to the east are already wrapping it up, kids back to
school, etc. "Normal" years we have enough resources to carry on, often with minimal help
unless it's a Kirk or Big Bar year. This is a year like that '99 year. And on top of it other
western regions have fire too and are facing I heard 40% drawdown.

What about finances? The agencies that support fire (ha, that fire bucks support!?) are
busted. We went and helped out with Katrina & Rita and we've paid the bill. We helped
with early fires in TX and NM and AZ and OK and we've paid the bill. I wouldn't be surprised
if the fire Gods (or want-to-be-gods at the regional/national levels) are looking at ways to
cost-cut with fire because fed fire agencies don't have the money. Ask Congress? We need
to get further into the season with more of the Public clamoring before the Harbours of the
world feel comfortable even asking Congress. Who's to say if that's good or bad? What's
agency policy? I heard the acting regional fire chief say some time back that firefighter safety is not
first priority, agency policy is. Agency policy has historically been about managing natural
resources. So where does that leave firefighters and wilderness communities and how
fires burn or get put out in wilderness and on forest lands? Some of the forests need to burn,
in a good way, but how do you do that? Are we doing that now? I think we're in transition
and firefighters know that transition is one of the 18 Watchout Situations.

Would one team managing a bunch of complexes work? Normally the fire escapes IA
and EA and it's clear it's likely to go big without a focused attempt to pick it up and the
resources to do so. It gets bigger, resources get released from other assignments and
reassigned to help. There's build-up for a while until goals are met. Line is constructed, burned
out and held. If fire jumps the line, crews with overhead direction up to the team level are there
to refocus anew. Crews and teams are demobed. Complexes are combined as the fires
are contained mopped up. When have complexes separated by some miles been combined
just as they're getting bigger?

Commanders intent: the Regional fire director (really acting director) says "make it so"
to forest fire chiefs and incident commanders. The regional forester says "make it so" to
forest supes and district rangers. Various forests and one team try to work it with not
enough resources or overhead supervision - attention to detail. Tactics are scaled
back to match the resources. Guess we'll see what happens.

Where in the mix are the line officers - the District Rangers, the Forest Supervisors?
Do they know enough to sign off on one IIMT managing a number of complexes? The
financial side of it might sound good to them. Beyond that, I don't know. Am I missing
something?

This may be a good thing even if it doesn't feel like it. Fire management in California is
in transition. All I got to say is, if things go wrong, we need to make sure the lessons learned
get to the right people, the regional fire director the national fire director, the regional forester.

Rogue Rivers

Todd

I was briefed yesterday at a community meeting on the Bake and Oven Fires. (I brought brownies. <grin> Two kinds... <bigger grin> Just kidding...)

A bulldozer has been used to widen an old jeep trail just outside the wilderness boundary and fire is being used to burn out the line on the SW corner of the fires which now have burned together. If the line can be widened, the backing fire can join it and the reduced fuel conditions will protect the Denny community. www.inciweb.org/incident/news/article/357/1201/

As far as fire in the wilderness, well there are not enough resources to handle that wide a fire front now. This is a case where reduced resources mean you alter tactics for the sake of firefighter safety. This land is fairly vertical... I have been told by some old residents who worked for the Forest Service years ago that in their day the FS would have sent out a crew to hike in, often at night, to pick up a fire like the Oven or Bake when it was small.

Today a weather front moved in; the winds picked up mid-afternoon. If we're lucky, the lines in that SW section continue to hold. There's just a little more burnout to do there. I'm hoping -- as are all the residents and the firefighters -- that the line is holding. Hoping that line on JimJam Ridge is holding too: we don't need fire in Devil's Canyon.

Mellie

Juan D. Estrada has just recently been approved for the Leave Donor
Program. Juan is currently a Vista Grande Hot Shot, here on the San
Bernardino NF, San Jacinto RD, who has been recently diagnosed with cancer
for the second time. He has exhausted all his leave and can not support
his family without your help. If you wish to donate leave to Juan and his
family, please fill out the AD-1043 and route through your time keeper. A
link to the AD-1043 form, has been attached below for your convenience.
Juan and his family are very appreciative to any hours that can be donated.
Thank You for your time.

www.ocio.usda.gov/forms/doc/AD1043-F-04-89.PDF

http://fsweb.cleveland.r5.fs.fed.us/operations/leave_donor_program.htm

Sad news indeed. Condolences. Ab.

Icefire

ep

I've got a line on some of the ECHS from 1973 and can forward that list to
you.

Old Fire Guy

Do seasonal, contract and AD firefighters have insurance to pay for the costs? I have a friend who almost died from it. She still has shortness of breath at times. She couldn't pass the WCT. (Old Man of the Department, this is not the time to chime in... Tongue firmly in cheek.) Ab.

There was a paper floating around Region that established the standard
format as hddd°mm.mmm' (Lat/Long in Degrees and decimal minutes).
The reason given was that aircraft use this format.

Fred

Sir, your comments are well put and of great value. I love GPS, but when push comes to shove, got to have that compass and map on hand. Even with GPS must have the area map. However GPS can see through smoke, inversion and fog.

My old hand held even will allow you to enter the variation so it displays in magnetic headings/bearings.
Actually that is what provoked my question, what map series are used for fire?

Thanks
RJM

Here's the Links page under Training and Education. Ab.

Cy

The so-called “competitive” outsourcing program is a major threat to Forest Service firefighters. For whatever reason, this program is now on the fast track. The agency plans to perform outsourcing studies on over 20,000 agency jobs over the next few years, many performed by red-carded employees.

Congress has put restrictions in place designed to protect firefighters from mindless outsourcing, but so far the Forest Service has simply ignored them. Stronger language to protect firefighters is in this year’s Interior Appropriations bill (HR 5386). The bill has passed the House and is waiting for Senate action. The Forest Service has already told the White House that it intends to ignore at least some of the restrictions on outsourcing firefighters in the pending law as well.

NFFE and FWFSA are working together on this important legislative issue. To see our joint press release, go to www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/CSIndex/CSIndex.html or to www.fwfsa.org. We are also working with our Congressional contacts to address this issue.

The White House is totally committed to its privatization agenda. It will take strong Congressional action to stop it. What’s needed is for Congress to use its power of the purse to say, “Of the funds appropriated by this or any other Act, none may be used in fiscal year 2007 for competitive sourcing studies and related activities by the Forest Service.”

To make this happen, we need as many folks as possible to contact their Senators. Ask them to pressure Senate leadership to bring the Interior Appropriations bill (HR 5386) to the floor, and to support an amendment to cut off funds for “competitive sourcing.” Contact info for Senators is at www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm.

Also, call your House rep and ask him/her to work for the same amendment. Contact info is at www.house.gov.

In contacting your elected reps, use your own equipment (phone or computer) on your own time.

Casey Judd, Business Manager, FWFSA
Mark Davis, NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

The unveiling of the monument for Jeff and Shane on July 22 was a very sad but special day for us. It was heartwarming to see so many family and friends paying tribute to Jeff and Shane.

We appreciate and are overwhelmed by the hours of work that have gone into the design and sculpting of the bronzes and the building of the base for the monument.

We want to thank Steve Kimball, Dennis Fogle and everyone who got the project started. We want to thank Drew Brown for all of the work he did on the bronzes and Randy Brown and Julie Pepper for their work on the foundation and the bridge.

We also want to thank Vicki Minor for all of her help and also “for just for being Vicki”.

The monument and the base it sits on are truly a work art and a wonderful tribute to Jeff and Shane. We hope it will be a place where people can come to reflect and will also serve as a reminder to firefighters and everyone how precious life really is.

We would encourage anyone who passes through Salmon to take the time to go to Indianola to see the monument and absorb the ambiance of the monument and its surroundings.

We also want to thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers during the past three years and for all of the kind posts that have been given to Jeff. He was such special a young man, who is truly loved by his family and friends. He was the kind of person that people were drawn to.

He is deeply missed and will always be loved by many.

Diz Allen, Jeff’s Mom

Thanks Diz, we hold those guys in our hearts. Photos of their Monument here: Shane and Jeff 1, Shane and Jeff 2, Shane and Jeff 3. Ab.

Doug & Gordon

So ya want to have a party... Ab.

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT
Office of Fire and Aviation
3833 South Development Avenue
Boise, Idaho 83705

To: Designated Agency Safety and Health Official (DASHO)

Subject: Expanded (72 Hour) Report for the New York Peak Fire

Number of Injured Employees: Six

Narrative: Eldorado Hot Shots responded to the New York Peak fire around 2 p.m. on Tuesday, July 25 and were conducting burn out activities near Leonard Ranch near Denio Junction in NV. At approximately 5 p.m. a vortex (e.g., dust devil, fire whirl) developed suddenly and three firefighters received serious burn injuries. They were evacuated by air ambulance and hospitalized. One firefighter was treated and released from Humboldt General Hospital in Winnemucca. Two other firefighters were flown to Lion’s Burn Care Center at the University Medical Center in Las Vegas. Three additional firefighters were later treated for minor burns locally and released. An Entrapment/Burnover Investigation Team was activated on Tuesday night and arrived on Wednesday, July 26 to begin investigating the incident. The team consists of both BLM and Forest Service employees:

• Team Lead: Ed Singleton, BLM Albuquerque District Office Manger
• Chief Investigator: Kathy Greer, BLM Utah State Safety Manager
• Safety Advisor: Stan Adams, Richfield Field Office/Ashley National Forest Interagency Safety Officer
• Technical Experts:
  o Gary Jarvis, R4 Fuels Program Manager
  o Jerry McGowan, Fire Operations, Stanislaus National Forest
  o Hector Madrid, BLM New Mexico Fire Management Officer
• Union Representative: Dan Duefrene, Shasta-Trinity National Forest

The team participated in a site visit with the Eldorado Hot Shots to review site operations during the incident and to conduct crew interviews. Data is being gathered to support the investigation. Preliminary findings indicate that fire behavior and a sudden weather change were significant factors in this incident and that a burn over did occur. Another significant finding was related to material factors. Had a bulldozer not remained with the crew for a short period of time, more serious injuries would have occurred. Two firefighters remain hospitalized for their injuries. The investigation will continue as more witness interviews are conducted and data is analyzed. Personal protective equipment is being sent to Missoula Technical Development Center for further analysis. A final report will be issued within 45 days of the incident.

/s/Ed Singleton, Entrapment/Burnover Investigation Team Lead

cc: BLM Safety Manager, WO-740
Office of Fire and Aviation, Division of Fire Operations Chief

My name is Matt N<snip>, I'm from Brooklyn, NY and have been offered to go out to California with this contractor that I met. The problem is there really isn't any place out here in New York that does any of the cert classes that I have to take to go out there. The classes I need to take are S130/190, L180 and I100. Do you know of any place that would offer these classes in NY or in any surrounding states? Thank you, for your time and help.

Sincerely,
Matthew <snip>

Jeff and Jesse are doing very well... See Gary's comments below.
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation really stepped up on this one as they
always do. We are very fortunate to have such an organization within our
community. Please checkout their website and information about the 52 club
when you have a chance. Keep Jesse, Jeff and their families in your
thoughts and prayers. They still have a long way to go in the recovery
process.

As for the rest of the Eldorado Hotshots the crew did an AAR in Las Vegas.
Gary reports it was a very successful AAR. The hospital allowed the entire
crew into the room with the patients. The remainder of the crew has now
returned to the Forest and is on two days of R/R followed by two regular
days off. Saturday is their first day back on duty. They will be engaged
in tool and vehicle rehab on Saturday and available when they are ready to
go. This will be decided by the forest.

The investigation team has completed their on-site work and has disbanded
they will complete their report over the next 45 days. Thanks to Jerry
McGowan for stepping up to work on this investigation. Jerry is now with
his team on the Kingsley Complex. The 72 hour report should be out today.
I will forward it when I have it...

Share with those who may be concerned...

The 72 Hour Report can be found here: Report

Jeff and Jesse continue to receive a tremendous amount of support from
family, friends, the Forest Service, BLM, the WFF and many others. I'm
glad to report reimbursement has been approved for the families and the
WFF. Details for both Jeff and Jesse's continued treatment are still in
the works so I'm not able to release yet. Jeff and Jesse have improved but
some of the burns in some areas were more severe than first thought.
That's about all I can say about their condition at this point. Some have
asked for the Wildland Firefighters Foundation web site address. It is
wffoundation.org. The Stanislaus Hotshots called this morning and plan to
stop by on their trip home from Utah this week. Many other crews,
individuals and Ranger Districts have called, sent cards, movies,
magazines, etc. Local news media are interested in their story as well but
are respecting their privacy. Thanks again for your support, Jeff and
Jesse, their families and the Eldorado Hotshots appreciate it all. Please
remember not to spread news or opinions that haven't been confirmed by the
facts; that aren't out yet. More to come. gary

Thanks for your support!.
Vicki Minor

Sam

Only way into Stehekin is boat, plane or hike. Friend's cabin is right below the origin and there appears to have been some local vs Federal conflict during IA, but I don't believe much I read in the Wenatchee paper and haven't talked to the folks that were there yet except over the radio, but it eventually involved the Governor. Tell your guys to stay safe!
(and stay out of politics) C64

While you're waiting to hear an answer, there is a quality list of private suppression organizations on the Jobs Page who can hire you tomorrow if they like your qualifications. OA

Note: We'll keep Stephanie from having her inbox stuffed with spam by relaying any messages for her. Use the Email Ab button at the top/right of the page to send a message. Thanks for writing Stephanie, it was nice to hear from you. OA.

I remember the summer of never-ending smoke of the 1988 Happy Camp Complex. We're on the other side of the Trinities, but it seeped and creeped along the valleys and filled our up bottom to top. It was creepy. I left our valley that summer for cleaner air.

The Bar Complex is going to be a repeat of the 1999 Big Bar. It might have been caught small with enough hotshots and air support, but you know how it is once fire gets established in those steep mountains. Here's part of what I wrote to friends. Luckily most were there during 1999 and they are more "trained up", largely by Larry Wright (now retired but still fighting fire). That Big Bar Complex got me to leave my former life, hooked forever.

The Bar Complex of fires are comprised of the Oven and the Bake fires that were started by lightning striking Bakeoven and JimJam Ridges, respectively, several days ago. Because of the extent of the lightning strikes across northern California and the lightning fires already burning to the east and in SoCal, there were not enough fire resources (air support and hotshots) to "pick up" the fires nearest us on Initial or Extended Attack. (They did hook a lot of the fires caused by the 1200 strikes, but ours were very remote.) Here's a map showing lots of current large fires burning; many, many of the western fires were caused by lightning strikes in hot, steep terrain. http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/

History shows that when fires in our extremely steep NorCal country burn for longer than 36 hours without containment resources, they get bigger and more unstoppable. After a certain acreage, it's unlikely they can be put out before the rains come in the Fall. This is because rolling burning logs and rocks are already spreading fire downhill into new drainages, often even past containment lines, if and when we can build them. Fire gets established where it comes to rest and then burns uphill later... and... on it spreads. The two fires near Denny are already on their way -- spreading, joining, becoming bigger and burning long term.

Thanks to everyone who was to kind and willing to "let me into the fire circle". Looking back, in 1999 and after, some of what I've inadvertently done is change locals perceptions of the Forest Service and firefighters. Larry Wright (Branch) and Candy Dillingham (PIO) and groundpounders did their parts, too, on that in the Denny area.

Last few days I've been visiting with friends there and catching up. This morning I realized that my firefighter friends have old stereotyped perceptions of the Denny community that it no longer deserves. It has really changed. The bad ones are gone, moved away or dead. The rest of us are all older, mellowed out? There's quite a bit of "gentrification" with people of all professions getting away. It doesn't look too different. Most people like to "rough it", but it is full of neat folks. When the country's not burning, it is rugged, gorgeous, blue skies, eagles, ringtail cats, New River, and cool nights and hot days that make you want to jump in. Ummmmm.

So when you come to fight fire here this summer, best bring a new attitude, or I might just have to adjust it for you! (grin)

Mellie

PS to Jody: If you don't have the info on the 10 fire orders as rules of engagement/disengagement, take a look in the Archives, documents worth reading for Karl Brauneis' stuff. OK, here it is: "Original Intent" Ten Standard Fire Fighting Orders . See they're not hard and fast RULES, but guidelines for safe firefighting. Now what you need on top of that as a beginning groundpounder is a course in the Campbell Prediction System so you know how to better "read" the fire on the ground.

PPS to Tom Annand and to Dave Sinclear and to other ICs: Thanks for "disengaging" our folks when conditions exceeded capacity to safely fight fire following the lightning busts.