I'll send a beautiful pair of Holly Yashi Earrings to the person
whose pledge tops the $26,000 mark.
Mellie

Thanks to everyone who is contributing. We're now more than halfway to the goal of $52,000.

And..., drumroll... the winner is Alison Rhynes... Alison. Keep an eye on your mailbox; they should be on their way tomorrow...

If anyone made a mistake on their pledge entry, a misspelling, or want to change the affiliation or honor your firefighter in that category, pledged $100 when you meant $1.00 (!!!), or hit the pledge button twice by mistake, let us know and we can fix it.

Please consider sending in your pledge now as a donation to make things simpler for the folks at the Foundation over the holidays. Paypal is always an option as well. Info and links for donating now are on the Pledge List page. Thanks, Ab.

CDF
FS
BLM

JB

I appreciate seeing links to the 52 ultra walk popping up on fire business websites. Very fine. The word is spreading. Please let your vendors know.

Ab.

Noname

I am looking for any any research material or practical experiences on applying class A foam to structures with a standard proportioning system in a WUI setting. I am interested in recommendations on nozzle types; hose line size and application ratios. I am also interested in any research or experiences regarding the longevity of the finished foam product on vertical surfaces in a windy, dry environment. As a member of an organization with a significant WUI exposure we are looking at alternatives to the stereotypical “Stand and Fight” style of structure protection when conditions are not in our favor. Our thoughts are to develop a standardized “Foam and Go” evolution that could lessen the exposure to our personnel. I am sure that this is not a novel approach and many of you out there have thoughts and experiences on this.

Thanks,

BB (another one)

“I think that the families of the firefighters who were killed on the Esperanza Fire should sue the living hell out of the insurance company that insured the house on the 15000 block of Gorgonio View. A house in that location should never been built. Insurance companies are balancing financial risk vs. gain, while firefighters are balancing public safety and community protection vs. safety and protection of natural resources.”

The potential implications for this kind of action would be huge. If there is enough support (both emotional and financial) for this kind of action in the firefighting community, it is a path worth investigating. There appears to be possible support from other interests as well.

An offline discussion would be productive.

jimhart

Wake Up...

"I’m wondering if there is still a subconscious influence about protecting structures that may have an impact on how we approach wildfires within the WEZ. This is an area where including a human behavior component in training would be helpful."

This will be very helpful in the implementation of new Doctrine which relies on good professional judgment as the recent R-1 document reflects. Check out the training described for the Navy in this article, "Integrated Critical Thinking Training and Decision Support for Tactical Anti-Air Warfare" at www.cog-tech.com/papers/DSS/C2paperDSS_Columns6.pdf (62 K pdf)

I note that they were able in this training to reduce coherence shifts (the human mind gives too much weight to ambiguous inconclusive evidence as it supports a first impression and gets to an emerging decision), but we can be trained to avoid this, just like we can reduce coherence shifts in juries by 50% with appropriate instructions.

The Navy's "quick check" and other decision processes allow for decisions to be improved in fast or slow real time (so they don't shoot down a neutral or civilian or non-threat by accident as they have in the past).

The "planning fallacy" in which we tend to under estimate the time needed to complete a task is also something we need to teach people to recognize.

There are a dozen or more cognitive problems we need to teach to improve our decision making and I do not see such training available.

I will get in touch with NWCG when I get back - going Elk hunting in the snow and single-digit temperatures tomorrow morning.

Old Sawyer.

The audit urged the Forest Service to train more personnel to assess and monitor wildfires for the practice known as wildland fire use, and hold wildfire incident commanders and line officers accountable for controlling costs.

I can hear it now...

on EA:
IC: Do we/don't we order that heavy? Do we/don't we order that handcrew?
And in the meantime the fire that could have been picked up on EA ESCAPES and goes on to get really big! Oops, sorry community...

in the middle of a going and blowing fire:
IC: I fear we're exceeding our budget. We need to demobe resources x, y, and z. I don't care if they're still being effective. If we don't release them, I will face legal investigations that go on for years, and even if I don't loose my job, my attention will be diverted from my job for the duration.

You know and I know, We do our best to control the budget. The parts that are a problem are not within our control... Mother Nature and too many people living in fire prone areas! Give me a break!

Tahoe Terrie

Just a correction for:

Bill Lafferty, fire program manager for the Oregon Department of
Forestry, noted in an email that one reason the Forest Service was
created in 1910 was to fight wildfires that were destroying whole
towns.

The actual date was 1905, but the catastrophic fires of 1910 did have a
huge influence on the Forest Service and its fire philosophy.

007

"Ninety percent of the homes lost to wildland fire are located in one tiny part of the country, Southern California," said Stahl. "So home loss is simply not a particularly significant issue where we fight most wildfires. To Southern California's credit, they are doing a lot, certainly more than anywhere else, to make their communities fire resistant."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am a little tired of people pointing fingers at Southern California without having their facts straight. Here are the correct figures for Mr. Stahl and anyone who reads that article and questions where he got his figures... I did.

Two points of contention: 1) His statement on percentages of homes lost is incorrect, and 2) His statement, "So home loss is simply not a particularly significant issue where we fight most wildfires" is fatally flawed. He obviously doesn't know where "we" fight wildfires..... nationwide.

Lobotomy

From the figures available from FAMWEB (NICC) as of November 29, 2006

Homes lost to wildfires 2006:

Total: 721 Homes Lost Nationwide.

The agenda and misrepresentation of "facts" by that group has come up in discussion before... Ab.

Audit: Let more wildfires burn, get more money from states
11/29/2006, 6:11 p.m. PT
By JEFF BARNARD
The Associated Press

GRANTS PASS, Ore. (AP) — A federal audit says the U.S. Forest Service should let more wildfires burn and demand that state and local governments pick up a bigger share of firefighting costs that regularly top $1 billion a year.

The audit released Wednesday by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's inspector general said Forest Service personnel feel that protecting private property where cities meet forests, known as the wildland-urban interface, accounts for more than half of Forest Service firefighting costs, which have exceeded $1 billion in three of the past six years.

Produced at the request of the Forest Service, the audit said that by picking up so much of the cost of fighting wildfires, the Forest Service was taking away incentives homeowners would have to take responsibility for protecting their homes in the woods.

And because state and local governments control development in the wildland-urban interface, they should bear a greater share of the costs, the audit added.

"We are pleased with the results and hope to have all the recommendations in place for the 2007 fire season," Forest Service spokeswoman Jennifer Plyler said from Washington, D.C. "It's something we looked at and felt we needed some outside help to decide how to approach it."

Many western forests evolved with fire, but the Forest Service has long put out all the fires it could, despite recognizing for many years that this led to an unnatural buildup of fuels that has increased the size and severity of wildfires.

The audit said current Forest Service policy calls for giving equal consideration to putting out fires and letting them burn to reduce buildups of brush and small trees, but outside pressure and a lack of trained personnel make it difficult to choose to let fires burn. It noted that only 2 percent of wildfires from 1998 through 2005 were allowed to burn for ecological benefit.

The audit urged the Forest Service to train more personnel to assess and monitor wildfires for the practice known as wildland fire use, and hold wildfire incident commanders and line officers accountable for controlling costs.

The Forest Service should also ask Congress to decide who has primary responsibility for protecting homes in the woods, and if that turns out to be the states, renegotiate its firefighting agreements with them.

Bill Lafferty, fire program manager for the Oregon Department of Forestry, noted in an email that one reason the Forest Service was created in 1910 was to fight wildfires that were destroying whole towns.

Mike Carrier, natural resources adviser to Gov. Ted Kulongoski, objected to the idea of states paying a greater share when they already spend millions on protecting private property from wildfire. He said Oregon has been a leader in helping communities reduce local wildfire danger, and that the underlying problem remains the huge buildup of forest fuels.

Andy Stahl of the Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics agreed that more wildfires should be allowed to burn, but disagreed that protecting homes was driving up costs.

"Ninety percent of the homes lost to wildland fire are located in one tiny part of the country, Southern California," said Stahl. "So home loss is simply not a particularly significant issue where we fight most wildfires. To Southern California's credit, they are doing a lot, certainly more than anywhere else, to make their communities fire resistant."(click link at the top to read the rest)

fair use disclaimer

Lori, are you collecting raffle items? I got a few good ones donated,
make nice presents for girlfriends/wives.

Mellie

Revealing map showing all the CA fires over 200 acres (except Esperanza)

http://gacc.nifc.gov/oscc/predictive/intelligence/news_notes/Over200acres_111706.pdf (4173 K pdf)

Rockaway Twp. hires lawyer to defend fire chief
State police won't back down on arrest of fire official at crash scene

Shortly after the Esperanza fire Class C wrote, “…but something seems to have fundamentally changed with respect to either attitude, fuel loading, or weather that has led to a lot of "freak events" this season.”

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this myself, with friends who have been in the fire service all their lives, and with those who know details about the Esperanza incident much better than I. We’ve asked ourselves if things really are different or if it is just our closeness to the situation that makes it seem so.

Our conclusion is yeah, something is different while another is that it's merely the expansion of a cancerous public attitude.

What’s different? Wildland firefighters are going to places to fight fires where we never did before. We are placing themselves in positions that would have never been considered in the past, immediately upslope from a fire with green in between us and a structure we are attempting to protect.

What’s the cancerous attitude? Growing public expectations that firefighters will protect every structure within the WEZ (the “Wildland Entrapment Zone,” formerly known as the WUI or wildland/urban interface) no matter the cost.

We need to fix these things by conducting a readjustment in how we think about wildfire within the WEZ (something most of us have known for the last 20 years).

Here’s what needs to be done:

1. The tenth Standard Firefighting Order should be modified as follows: Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first because it’s OK to let other people’s stuff burn.
2. There are going to be structures, no matter what is done in or around them, that will never be safe for firefighters to be near in a wildfire. We all know the determining variable; structures at the top of a fire chimney or within a known fire corridor. Although building codes are improving, houses are still being built within known fire corridors and in physical locations that literally beg to be burned during an extreme event. These structures need to be permanently red flagged, mandating that firefighters are NOT allowed to go there to engage in structure protection.
3. The State-required 100 feet of fuel management needs to be done properly. What does this mean? It does NOT mean taking a chipper and grinding the landscape down to 6 inches or less (usually less) and then going away. All that is doing is creating environments where massive amounts of fine fuels (weeds and grasses) are encouraged to grow. The 100 foot zone (or whatever distance people want to demand based on science, not suppositions) needs to contain appropriate vegetative cover that will prevent the growth of fine fuels and will provide sufficient green to act as a buffer to embers and as a heat sink to the flame front. The two events I am familiar with (the burnovers in Pioneertown during the Sawtooth fire and the Esperanza) had three things in common:
• flames being driven by strong winds moving upslope,
• active structure protection, and
• FINE FUELS.

It was the volatile mix of these fine fuels that allowed the flames to move so fast. We’ve got to change our focus from generalized clearance recommendations to specific requirements that specify how to create proper vegetative cover in order to prevent weed growth. And no, this doesn’t mean irrigation and fields of ice plant. Ultimately this will fail because down the line water will become the limiting factor. It takes some work, but properly managed, low-water use, fire-safe landscaping is possible. This approach also allows a homeowner retain the surrounding, low-maintenance, native vegetation (properly thinned) instead of creating a moonscape requiring yearly weed abatement.

4. Every house within the WEZ (“Wildland Entrapment Zone”) must be constructed out of non-flammable materials. No wooden decks, no wooden roofing, no wooden siding, no wooden patio furniture, no open eaves. If not, as stated earlier here by AD, houses should be “treated like any other fuel and go for the best, and safest, firefighting strategy regardless of where the "fuels" are located.” I don’t know why vegetation has become the default focus with home ignition variables treated as afterthoughts, but I suspect it is because our leaders don’t have the guts to take on the building industry. I don’t want to believe that vegetation management budgets have anything to do with this myopic focus on clearance, but that’s something we need to be honest about. Yeah, I know retrofitting a house can be expensive, but let’s put things into perspective. Yearly maintenance of the weed lot that people are creating around their homes now due to improper clearance activities gets really expensive over time. On top of that, it just doesn’t get done much of the time. Then we are back again to enforcement issues and the creation of massive amounts of fine fuels. Viejo suggested that we should let the insurance companies be the enforcers here. Well, that might be a workable solution IF insurance companies follow rational clearance needs, but they generally don’t. I personally know of cases where they required their clients to clear 500-1000 feet. That is ridiculous, although it was likely just a pretext to dump the client. Even some of us in the fire business need to be kept in check. San Diego County planning staff is using inappropriate fuel models to require 200 feet of clearance regardless of the situation. Blanket numbers may be easy in the short run, but we’ll pay for it later with an increase in fine fuels, erosion, and landscape damage. I don’t want to harp on this natural resource issue, but honestly folks, we are on the front line of protecting what natural open space we have left. Most of us got into this business because we love the outdoors. It makes me sick to see thousands of acres of natural stuff get eliminated just because people are too lazy (or greedy) to do it right.
5. If any firefighter is killed or injured defending a structure within the WEZ, the owner and/or builder will be held criminally responsible if it is found that #3 and #4 were not properly implemented and were the determining factors in the firefighter death or injury. This way post-mortem fire investigations will be looking in the right direction if there is a desire to place blame, instead of forcing all of us to get liability insurance just to do our job.

Outside of these changes, I wondering if there are some mind sets within the fire service that need changing as well. We are trained that safety is first and that no life is worth a house, but I’m wondering if there is still a subconscious influence about protecting structures that may have an impact on how we approach wildfires within the WEZ. This is an area where including a human behavior component in training would be helpful.

Maybe we can take a cue from Jeff Bowman, the former San Diego city fire chief. He personally went to the San Diego community of Tierrasanta long before the Cedar fire and told residents that there will be homes the fire department would let burn for lack of resources or firefighter risk. After everyone got over the initial shock, most of them began to understand. Some wildfires can not be put out and only those structures built and maintained properly will have a chance of surviving, because chances are, wildland firefighters will not be there. And they shouldn’t be there because they have a job to do; fighting the actual fire instead of squirreling around with homes that shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

jimhart

Community, please help in any way you can, especially by contacting companies you do business with for purchasing firefighter supplies, fire equipment and services. I am not talking about private sector firefighting companies that have crews; they have supported this foundation in a big way long before most folks knew we existed. I mean businesses in your communities and businesses you buy from at a distance, suppliers of fire equipment, etc. These companies have had a very profitable year. They can afford to give some to the fire community's safety net. This 52 Mile Ultra Walk event is a perfect reason for contacting them with such a request. In fact, I'm sure the companies would support us if they knew they could do it through this event as a donation but with their name up in lights on the pledge list. They can think of it as "good will" advertising if they choose. Please help where you can and contact who you can, so that we can take care of each other.

What will the 52 Mile Ultra Walk be like? Who will be there besides the Shots? We have Dan Holmes' mother coming from New Mexico, and John Greeno's wife from SoCal, and Heather DePalo's mother from New York. We hope more families can make it to the 52 Mile Walk. Maybe even an Ab... Hope to see all of you there. You can sign up on the Eldorado hotshot 52 mile walk page. We know some won't walk the whole way. We won't, but we'll do what we can and we'll cheer a lot.

On another note, our Foundation -- meaning ALL of us  -- is continuing to help in many ways. Two examples... First, we'll be sending out some early Christmas money for kids' presents. We're trying to do this every year to help fallen firefighter families through tough times that always occur around the holidays. Second, Burk contacted Juan Estrada yesterday; he is a Vista Grande Hot Shot and he is dying of cancer. He has two kids and a baby son coming in 7 days. He has said he wants to hang on until his son is born. He is sending us a letter to be put in a card for his wife and kids to open when they go to Sea Land or Disneyland next summer, hosted by the 52 Club.

Thank you Wildland Fire Community. Soooooooooo many many of you have helped us way beyond the call of compassion

Vicki Minor
Director
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

There's lots of great new info on the Eldorado hotshot 52 mile walk page. Food, t-shirts, kids activities, raffles. (Still could use raffle items.) Pledges are going very well. Consider pledging and sending in your donation at the same time. Get businesses you buy from to do the same. Let the Foundation know it's for the 52 Walk. I did. Saves work later while letting the pledge show up as we work toward the goal. Ab.

DF

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 6150
Date: November 28, 2006
Subject: Hotshot Squad Leader Standard Position Description
To: Forest Supervisors

A new standard position description (SPD) for Hotshot Squad Leader positions has been developed for use at the Region 6 field level. This new SPD is a result of a classification review conducted on Region 6 Hotshot Squad Leaders. This follows previous studies on the Smokejumper Squad Leader and Engine Captain positions. The classification review concluded the appropriate classification for Hotshot Squad Leader positions is Forestry Technician,
GS-462-7, which results in an upgrade from the current GS-6 grade level.

We will be coordinating with the Washington Office to incorporate this position description into the national system. Until that time, the Region 6 SPD should be used for assignments of all Hotshot Squad Leaders in Region 6. Encumbered positions will be upgraded to the GS-7 level based on accretion of duties, i.e., the promotions will be non-competitive.

The new SPD is in the ADS (AVUE) classification section with the Region 6 SPD number of R6A084. Please contact your servicing Human Resources office for direct access to this position description. Contacts to this office should be directed to Al Anderson, (503) 808-2637, or aanderson02@fs.fed.us.

/s/ Shari L. Blakey
Director, Human Resources

/s/ J.A. Kendall Snell
Director, Fire and Aviation Management

Lobotmy , you can pass the clearance laws, but the public agencies in California
have demonstrated they cannot enforce the law. There are simply too many houses
and it is too labor intensive to inspect and force compliance.

The onus on compliance has got to be shifted to the insurance companies.

I think a clause that declares the policy null and void if the building is found in
non compliance would do a lot more than a "clean up your property notice".

viejo

The program also does not include a deep well of responders on staff… most folks working on NIMS have not been "out there" on initial response and so there is a big learning curve and many good intentions… most staff appear to come from the DHS &/or FEMA organizations in the DC area (FEMA rarely pays feds' moving expenses). Federal wildland fire agencies have been helping facilitate NIMS progress since 9/11 and possibly before.

Our local agency administrator took a job in DC the week before Katrina hit. The best thing about him leaving is he knows what a resource order is. Actually held it in his hand and been able to get to and from his assignment. I was able to visit with him this fall and he shared with me his frustrations of watching people in a room in DC trying to manage a distant incident and who had no idea of the dispatch and incident organization process.

Fire Dog said

To say no one got hurt because of the Fire Command system they used on Katrina and other incidents is not because of the system but because of the people in charge. That is the same for any profession!! ICS is only as effective as the IC, period.

Amen to that!!!!!!

Swimming Upriver said

I am constantly challenged by organizing non-firefighters to "saddle up" and get stuff done as they don't speak the same language.

If your spouse is ever in charge of a large funding raising event for school or church with lots of volunteers and logistic of Type 3 complexity. Leave town or risk damaging your marriage. ;-)

Small Agency Fire Guy

• Still make sure I have a generous supply of shroud line, space blanket, cribbage board and cards and an old tattered Louis L’amour book in my bag anywhere I go although I haven’t used any of them in years.
• Still have a p38 on my key ring...haven’t used that in decades
• I have to stop myself from only packing 1 set of socks/undies for every 2-3 days I plan on being gone figuring I can get by with that and need to keep under the weight limit.
• Always hold one clean shirt and pants in reserve so I have something clean to wear home. ..I cant remember the last time I really got good and dirty.
• Still keep a 20 tucked away at all times in my toilet bag. ..I guess that is still not a bad idea.

I’m sure more will come to mind...

Take care and be safe all

Pulaski

Put 'em on "Lessons Learned in Wildland Die Hard" After returning from fire season, I still back into my parking place... Ab.

"In January 2005 a new state law became effective that extended the defensible space clearance around homes and structures from 30 feet to 100 feet. Proper clearance to 100 feet dramatically increases the chance of your house surviving a wildfire. This defensible space also provides for firefighter safety when protecting homes during a wildland fire."

California Public Resources Code (PRC 4291) REQUIRES that homeowners provide defensible space for firefighters. The problem is, that PRC 4291 has only an infraction clause (not a misdemeanor or felony clause) that institutes a $100 to $500 dollar fine associated with it for homeowners who violate it regardless of a first, second, or a third citation.

In fact, those cited with it after a fire, may be able to fight the infraction and claim, "I met the rules of 4291.1(b)" and 'my fine must be now reduced to $50 because my property no longer meets the definition after the wildfire.'

Maybe the stakes need to be raised a little. How about homeowners who do not meet clearance standards as dictated by local law also face misdemeanor charges?... felony charges? ... rather than infraction citations and tax liens to correct hazardous actions?

We need to raise the bar..... either homeowners create defensible spaces, or firefighters simply don't protect those structures... and insurers don't insure them.

If a violation of PRC 4291 exists that the homeowner and the insurance company has been informed of, then both the homeowners and the insurers should both have civil and criminal liability if something goes bad and firefighters are injured or killed.

Lobotomy

Specific CA PRC 4291 code spelled out.

I understand that Phoenix has had a longstanding system that works internally for their applications, great. However, I went to New York on 9/11/01 and saw how the FDNY integrated into ICS, it was rough for the first few days. Their internal system worked great for their application but throw multi-agency operations in the mix and it struggled. I also went to Katrina, another discussion!! The point is we all need to work in an environment that has some commonality.

In 1970, Ca experienced a series of wildfires that made us realize that uncommon communications, tactics, equipment, and command structure WILL get someone killed, not to mention make us look silly to the taxpayers when we can't even talk to each other. FIRESCOPE was formed to study that very issue (FIRESCOPE was and still is a standing committee in CA). ICS was the product of that work.

What Mr. Brunacini also did not mention, is that ICS CAN be modified to fit the need of the incident. It is the basic structure that should not be modified. So, yes, it can be used (and is used very successfully in CA) for everyday structure fires, etc.

Accountability is how your agency chooses to use it. The basic IAP serves as an initial accountability system with line supervision responsible for maintenance.

To say no one got hurt because of the Fire Command system they used on Katrina and other incidents is not because of the system but because of the people in charge. That is the same for any profession!! ICS is only as effective as the IC, period.

His statement that the Federal Govt has only been in the incident command business for a few years is an over-reaching statement that we all know is completely false. Agencies that don't use any incident command system at all will soon be removed from any large incident if they continue to "run amok".

I also disagree with his statement that Type 1 or 2 teams cannot run a major, non-fire disaster. We in Ca have been doing it for years (fire, flood, quake, exotic new-castle disease, etc) I do not claim we in Ca are perfect, far from it, but I will say that after traveling all over the country and seeing what is out there, I am proud of what we have and where the Nation is going for standardization. We have and will continue to make it the best system out of necessity.

Firedog

I think it's a healthy exercise that we thrash this one every 4-5 yrs, kind of like the "which boot is best" topic every spring...

My first exposure to Firescope was in the mid 70's, when to get the training in norcal, you had to travel to Redding and attend the "Charlie and Lanky" show for 8+ hrs. You got your cert. and on exiting the door all of the supes (foremen?) were mumbling "They can call this whatever they want, just tell me who the 'Line Boss' is." By the end of the next fire season, it seemed like repetition had taken hold and other than a few "misspeaks" on the radio, the new system was up and running. Like "Old AK" I think the 3 bar Bullard in the garage still says "sector boss" on it.

The initial days of the Alpine Meadows avalanche rescue in 1983 were run on a loosely based ICS model due to the Snow Ranger- Don Huber- being the first IC and a lot of "between season" Hobart H S guys participating in the rescue, either from the Alpine Meadows or USFS side. The system worked, an "all risk" application?

Flash ahead a couple of decades, times flies etc., to this fall. In the month of Oct., within an 8 mi. circle we had a late season urban interface event - with red, yellow, green and white units responding in the middle of the night. ICS positions and assignments all given over the radio and everyone dropped into and did their jobs. Multi-jurisdictional, unified command - no homes lost and everybody went to breakfast safely. Within a few days half of the same agencies responded to a 4th alarm structure fire in the middle of downtown with multi-fatalities. Again ICS positions and assignments given during IA were followed (no doubt in my mind who the line boss was) and a lot of "ex-green" firefighters worked side by side on an inner city "career event" fire.

For the next week the salvage/overhaul and body recovery in the building was run on a classic ICS structure, with an ICP, IAP and "technical specialists" being brought in whenever necessary. The IC did not have to be an authority on every single phase of an operation. The same individuals who function as wildland IC's and OPSC on local and natl. teams ran the show, or participated in the process. One more time, the system worked.

I guess it never hurts to do a "system evaluation" on a regular basis, it's always easier when it's raining and there's always room for improvement...

Remember that when a better mousetrap is invented, the bureaucracy will regulate a way to screw it up...

Be safe out there-

willy

Hey Wheel- still playing mandolin?

Joe Stutler (IC PNW Team 3, 1999) told me in late 1999 about about the South Canyon Report. He gave me a copy and we had some discussions about what went wrong and the long term implications for firefighting. I also heard about the 1995 Fire Policy with its emphasis on

1. Improving fire prevention and suppression --
2. Reducing hazardous fuels --
3. Restoring fire-adapted ecosystems -- allowing fire to play its natural role
4. Promoting community assistance -- the WUI communities are critical

and especially while

• emphasizing the protection of communities and other high-priority watersheds at-risk
• collaborating among all agencies and the public
• keeping firefighters safe

I know that in 1995 the interface was discussed (wasn't called the "WUI" (woo-weee) by many people then).

I doubt if anyone in 1995 working on that fire policy anticipated the scope of the development that has occurred since then, as baby-boomers and others escape the cities and suburbs on weekends or in retirement. I see the houses buildup in the semi-rural towns and farms in my norcal neck o the woods - some who are building are socal escapees. Areas around socal and other western population centers have worse interface-associated problems than we do on my neck-o-the-woods. WUI population density is greater there. With people, comes a greater chance for fires starting accidentally and an increase in arson. Roads are unsafe for fire equipment ingress and egress due to terrain, budget, planning, etc. Gates are often too small or narrow. Defensible space around homes is non-existent or inadequate. There is no opportunity for the "Escape Routes" and "Safety Zones" parts of LCES. Bark beetle infestation has added massive fuel loading to the surrounding woods.

I doubt if anyone in 1995 anticipated the exponentially increasing cost of fighting fire on the expanded WUI of 2006 either.

Fuels, well we all know about the fuels problem. Drought, bark beetles, standing dead timber... Climate affecting environmental conditions leading to an increase in biomass... Primed for burning. Takes only one match-striking arsonist...

WUI, fuels and weather: We need to know when to get out of the way... We need to know when to not go there.

Mellie

PS Don't let anyone tell you that smoke from wildfire has created global warming. Smoke is not the climate-change problem. The problem is "hydrocarbons from industrialization" - that is, factories, vehicles, and... lawn mowers...

Update: I've heard from an old dude that interface growth was anticipated in '95, so I stand corrected. Mellie

I know doctrine mostly relates to firefighters being trained and
treated as professionals and demonstrating their professional
leadership, but we need to cut through other stuff too.

Sounds like the R1 Doctrine on cost containment, if followed,
means we'll have to get rid of MAFFS as one of the inefficient,
outdated, otherwise marginal aviation contractors. MAFFS is a
big ticket item $$$... How politically incorrect will some of the
legislators find that suggestion?!

GTK

It's easy to look at the roadblocks. There will be some we anticipate and some we can't. I commend R1 for working on and presenting their FAM Foundational Doctrine. Way to be a leader! Ab.

We got a request for a higher resolution version of this Modoc crew pic from the end of the 2001 fire season for printing. (It was sent in in Jan 2002.)

Photo was taken in Oct 2001, Biggs Flat fire, Lewis & Clark NF, Montana and was contributed by MR.

MR, if you're reading, please contact us. I remember where you worked (norcal NPS) even as late as 2004, but no longer have your contact info. (Don't even remember if your initials are really MR.)

I'm guessing here, but maybe the crew would like to have it for their historical photo collection.

Readers, if anyone else has Modoc IHC crew photos from their first or second year, would you please send them in. We'll pass them on.

Ab.

On page 2 of the doctrine it states

" firefighters routinely encounter numerous and varied risks in performance of their jobs. Even with reasonable mitigation of risk and working within agency policies, our personnel may suffer serious injury or death. Any doctrine or policy that neglects this basic truth is incomplete. At the same time it remains the philosophy of the Northern Rockies that no resource or facility is worth the loss of human life".

That is a BIG change from currently FS policy which does not recognize the dynamic high risk environment we operate in, hence the constant proliferation of more rules and regulations.

On page 7 you'll find that

"risk management will be evaluated on the decision-making process, not the outcome. Decisions will be judged on use of professional judgment based on information available at the time".

As an example, in some cases a fire shelter deployment may be considered a good decision based on the circumstances and available information at the time, rather than considered a poor decision based on the fact shelters were deployed under any circumstances.

I must admit to being somewhat overwhelmed. I don't know whether this is an actual change to the way we were doing business or just another bit of paperwork. The fact that the regional forester has signed off on it gives me some hope. I was hoping that some of the They Said commentators would give me some input. Misery Whip, any thoughts on this document?

Thanks,
Domaque.

FAM Doctrine R1 (pdf file 2,900 K)

Ab removed the link to this. It was meant only for internal circulation and will likely be changed this week. We'll post the final version when it's available.

• While seated at the table, pick up each piece of food and ponder its useful life span in your pack before cramming it into your pocket, or into your shirt for later.
• Getting your dinner served out through the window lends a nice touch.
• Give one of the kids a "clicker".
• If the smoke alarm goes off, it's okay to backfire the kitchen.
• Leave one of the kids on the roof of the garage as a lookout.
• Take the plastic kiddie pool and hinge it to the side of your house attached to a stiff spring. When it gets windy, it'll sound like the blue lagoon doors banging shut.
• If you leave the lawnmower running all night, it'll sound like a generator.
• Throw away the night lights and get some Cylume Sticks instead.
• Replace the carpeting with wood chips.
• Cordon off your lawn with some circus flagging.
• Make the kids line out to load their school bags into the trunk of the family wagon.
• Don't forget the cardboard in the window with your family name, and the E # on the windshield.
• Show the kids how fun it is to do their homework with a headlamp.
• For Christmas, get the kids the "same" style and color knapsacks (and hats) so they'll all look similar. Green pants are always in style.
• Keep muttering "water conservation" while your significant other washes the car.
• Then take the garden hose and "hydro mine" the flower bed.
• Steal the last roll of toilet paper from the bathroom... Go ahead, try it!

As always, Stay safe! "Kicks"

Added them to the You Know You're a Forestry Tech If ... page. Thanks. Ab.

I'm not sure I understand the basis of his objections to NIMS/NIIMS. As far as I can tell, the Fire Command system he advocates (I grew up with NIIMS, so I stipulate I'm not super familiar with the system) is a fundamentally tactical system, for short-duration incidents. I think getting Type 4/5 vs 1/2/3 involved confuses the duration of the incident with the complexity of the incident. This Fire Command system might be great for complex, short duration incidents that NIIMS wasn't necessarily designed for. As I see it, problem is strategic; the federal government was tasked with coming up with a unified system that would handle extended duration, high complexity incidents.

Campaign fires in wildland world are the closest routine incident type to the level of complexity envisioned, so that was the template that got used.

Brunacini says "Managing a burning forest does not qualify someone to manage a large explosion in the middle of a big city or figure out what to do when the people in your community start getting the bird flu. In the end, local responders will have to deal with these incidents well before federal help arrives."

Well, nobody knows exactly what do under those circumstances, because they don't happen very often. Nobody's ever been IC on two World Trade Centers, two Oklahoma Cities, or two Katrinas, let alone dozens. Big wildland fire is just the closest thing in terms of personnel numbers, overall incident complexity, and ease of resource mobilization, that happen routinely.

I think when he says "Mandating each fire department to run automatic aid with each fire department on its borders would do more to unite the fire service in one week than NIMS has done in three years.", he's fundamentally missing the point. It's a great suggestion tactically, but it's not a way to organize diverse resources to operate together for day, weeks, or months. It just doesn't address the same issues.

Another issue is that most fire departments, even large fire departments, are organized to mobilize a few dozen people with a fairly uniform skill set for a few hours or maybe a few days. Wildland fire and the military are the only organs the federal government has that can organize a few hundred to a few thousand people, with a diverse skill set, for weeks or months. Posse comitatus says you can't really use the military, and calling in the National Guard can be mediapathic.

Another issue is that you can mandate all you want, and what actually happens is another issue. You can mandate cooperation, but what actually happens when the tones go off is something else. Same thing with NIIMS- I know many fire departments who swear up, down and sideways that they use NIIMS on grant applications, but on the fireground ICS is "just too much trouble".

Anyhow, that's my two cents worth... I don't think there's anything wrong with NIMS or NIIMS, and I don't think there's anything wrong with Fire Command - they're two different tools, and maybe debate would be more useful aimed at making the systems work together, rather than fussing over which is "better".

I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but with WUI as the new "normal", wildland folks and structure folks need to be able to work together. An incident lasting weeks and handled by NIMS might include a dozen structure fires handled by Fire Command. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Nerd on the Fireline

I just read N. Brunacini's article and was wondering if anyone else out there raised an eyebrow as I did?

I work in the valley (Phoenix) with PFD almost everyday through the "consortium". I am also heavily involved in the wildland fire community as a ENGB/CRWB and ICT4. I dont really know what true intentions Nick had, other than to slam the political side of NIMS, but I was somewhat disenchanted with his comments. I almost felt as if he was presenting, unintentionally, a competition between the intimately similar systems.

First of, Nick does a good job of defining the difference between NIMS and Fire Command. Basically, a word: Division or Group as opposed to Sector. Thats about it. The insinuation that ICS is for Type 1,2, or 3 incidents and FC is for Type 4 or 5 is merely interesting. I believe, because I participate in both "versions" everyday, that they both do the same thing!

Nick states that PFD used the FC system for a 14 day assignment to Katrina, and that because they did, they didnt get anyone injured. Great point. However, I believe thats because of the "safety first" mentality of ALL departments in the Phoenix area, not based on them using a FC IMS rather than NIMS IMS. I participate in two week assignments all the time, as well as smaller incidents, using both the PFD version, and national version. It is the safety conscious attitude the prevents the injuries, not the IMS.

Further, I have to give respect where it is due: "The federal government has only been in the incident-command business for a few years." This is a completely incorrect response. The wildland fire community, ie. USFS, BLM, etc, have used incident command for more than a few years. While FIRESCOPE might have been developed with fire departments and federal agencies alike in California, is wasnt designed in just the last "few years".

There might be issues at the top of the federal government NIMS training and management, but I was really ticked to see reference that NIIMS/NIMS and FC were two different beasts, and that one was for larger incidents, the other for smaller, and that one worked better in a different setting. As an ICT4, I work with small numbers of units in a wildland incident, and as a member of a vallie FD, I work on house fires, commercial fires, etc, in the same capacity. They can BOTH work, and are basically the same thing.

Just my thoughts... anyone else agree/disagree? Maybe I missed some other point? I guess I just get a little hot when I read more PFD glory writing, when I see them show up all the time on fires in shorts, brush pants, or whatever, not prepared, yet they are the first to proclaim how great they are.

AZfirefighter

All proceeds benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

CA-BDF-E57 Always Remember Decal (crew57)

The Abs.

OA is point man on this one, receiving orders, keeping records, validating credit cards, shipping, etc. He shipped out a bunch before the holidays and will ship out more as soon as the shipping office reopens mid-week. The orders have come in from all over, as far as Washington DC, and Canada. If you want some, better get your order in. Sales benefit the Foundation.

"... A record 9.4 million acres burned this year across the country, surpassing the previous record of 8.7 million acres that burned in 2005, and all signs suggest the trend will continue. More severe fires are likely to threaten more homes."

"Five of the 10 worst seasons since 1960 in terms of acres burned have occurred in the last seven years," said the memo to Kempthorne from the National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group, which directs firefighting crews and equipment from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho.

"If wildfires burn at the same pace next year as they did this year, the firefighting budget will be exhausted by July, the U.S. Forest Service said. Fire managers increasingly must let some fires burn so they can send crews to fight others."

"Their unusually direct warning, in a one-page memo prepared at Kempthorne's request and obtained by The Oregonian of Portland, Ore., came shortly after five U.S. Forest Service firefighters died late last month in Southern California while trying to save a home from wind-driven flames."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is pretty sad that it took the lives lost of firefighters, and the press attention to get the NMAC and the WO levels of the land management agencies off their butts and recognizing what the wildland firefighting community has been saying for years.

Read the whole article. The report fails to mention that 23 wildland firefighters died this year.... Not just the recent five that spurred them into action for the jobs they are supposed to be doing year-round.

Rogue Rivers

Rogue Rivers, often discussion points don't get to the ground or to the public even if a bigMAC would like them to. I'm glad these did at a time when the public has heightened awareness. Ab.

On the last page of the report notice paragraph C. It portends the situation the
federal forces face today.

The investigators pointed out that in general, although not related in particular
to the Inaja fire, present Government salary and wage rates make it difficult
to obtain and hold competent fire control personnel. Controlling mass forest
fires is a difficult and highly technical job. The specifications for these positions
should be further reviewed with appropriate Department and Civil Service
Commission officials.

I always think about where it says "overran Mt. Gower". I watched the Cedar
(the 2003 fire where we lost the Novato FF) do that also and it took a few of the 29
houses lost in Ramona before that flank was contained.

th

Found this when I was browsing around last week. What do people think?
Don't want to poke the sleeping rattlesnake, but at least read this...

Staring into the Sun: NIMS or NIIMS?
Is a beast with one "I" better than a beast with two?

AZ engineer

Hello Abs...
I think all can relate!

~~
WHEN THE FIRE SEASON IS DONE

One day we will all be returning to a normal life, and it may not be easy. Here are some tips for a slow, sure withdrawal from fireline life:

Make a tape recording of helicopters flying overhead so you can replay it for yourself when you go to bed.

Turn on all the lights in your bedroom before trying to sleep.

Put your stinky, dirty socks beneath your pillow.

Sprinkle some dirt and pine needles on your sheets.

Have the paper deliverer honk their horn for you at 4:00 a.m. A lot.

During the day, turn on a stove burner on to warm and sit on it. Make a sandwich, sit on it, then go and drop it in the dirt in the flower bed. Go and stand beside a full smelly garbage can when you eat it.

Twice a day, hit yourself in the shins with a hammer. (Pulaskis can really appreciate this one! ...Me!)

If you carpool to work, ride in the trunk. Then, tell your carpool driver to forget to pick you up when it’s time to go home.

In the evening, at home, start a fire in the fireplace, close the damper, shut off all the lights and read by flashlight.

For breakfast, cook a nice omelet, pour a cup of coffee, refrigerate both for 15 minutes before putting them on the table. Then, lay your head in the plate and go to sleep.
~~
Thanks for all that you do!
Signed,
ExBerdue

Nice. Added them to the You Know You're a Forestry Tech If ...  page. Ab.

Inaja Fire Anniversary
Deadly 1956 chaos led to 'firefighting orders'
Rules held sacred, but effectiveness under fire
www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20061125-9999-1n25inaja.html

... Controversy about the effectiveness of the Standard Orders has been swirling since 1994, when 14 firefighters perished in the South Canyon blaze in Colorado. The investigation blamed a “can-do” attitude that led crew members to violate eight of the 10 rules.

“There was almost a moral outrage on the part of the investigators that the rules had been broken,” said Ziegler, the Purdue professor. She said fire administrators “lowered the boom,” issuing edicts that the orders should never be violated.

One of the investigators, Ted Putnam, a Forest Service firefighter and equipment specialist from Montana, refused to sign the final report. He argued that the orders are flawed and too easily used to point fingers – a way for management to avoid responsibility for shortcomings in organization and supervision.

He said more attention should be paid to the “human factors” on a fire line, such as sleep loss and fitness level, and that better training is needed for decision making in stressful conditions.

His feelings were echoed in a subsequent survey of wildland firefighters. They urged development of “a safety culture that encourages people to think rather than just obey the rules.”

Forest Service officials are moving in that direction, with more training in situational awareness, leadership and risk management. “We're not there yet, but we're making strides,” Joseph said. ... (click the link to read the whole article)
 

Wildfire Threat Is at Breaking Point, Officials Warn
www.newhousenews.com/archive/milstein112206.html

... A record 9.4 million acres burned this year across the country, surpassing the previous record of 8.7 million acres that burned in 2005, and all signs suggest the trend will continue. More severe fires are likely to threaten more homes.

"Five of the 10 worst seasons since 1960 in terms of acres burned have occurred in the last seven years," said the memo to Kempthorne from the National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group, which directs firefighting crews and equipment from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho.

If wildfires burn at the same pace next year as they did this year, the firefighting budget will be exhausted by July, the U.S. Forest Service said. Fire managers increasingly must let some fires burn so they can send crews to fight others.

"Current trends related to wildland fire management are leading toward `perfect storm' conditions" that will severely test the nation's firefighting capacity, the fire managers said. Specifically, they told Kempthorne:

-- Half of all new homes built nationwide in the last 10 years have gone up in or next to fire-prone forests or other wildlands, and retiring baby boomers are likely to move into such areas in rising numbers.

-- Despite aggressive efforts to remove fuel for fires by thinning overgrown timber, "the accumulation of fuels often outpaces the ability to reduce them" and to keep them reduced.

-- Although wildfire poses obvious risks to homes, "most homeowners fail to take the necessary measures to better protect their property," the fire leaders wrote. "This lack of involvement is likely driven by an expectation that firefighters will always be there when needed."

More and more homes scattered across fire-prone land complicates firefighting by putting fire crews in riskier situations as they try to protect private property.

Climate studies predict that the West will grow warmer and drier, making forests more flammable and blazes more dangerous and unpredictable. The period from January to August of this year was the hottest on record, the fire managers told Kempthorne.

As fires burn more land, the cost of fighting them increases. Federal firefighting costs have topped $1 billion in four of the last seven years.

Federal agencies are hiring fewer firefighters, or employing them for shorter seasons, as inflation erodes their budgets.

Fire crews increasingly have been pulled away to help with other disasters such as hurricanes.

Each factor may not be remarkable by itself, but together they add up to longer odds and higher stakes for the nation's firefighting apparatus.

"It's a fairly amazing collection of trends that potentially put us in very difficult fire situations in the future," Boatner said. ... (click the link to read the whole article)

fair use disclaimer

http://gacc.nifc.gov/oscc/predictive/outlooks/Fire_Potential.html

Now is a good time to review IZONE fire fight protocols. Keep one
foot in the burn and the wind to your back.

Cal Fire Jake

Check CA-SoCal-Wind Event

Ab.

"A "perfect storm" of conditions favoring destructive
wildfires threatens to push the nation's firefighting
capacity toward the breaking point, top federal fire
officials have warned Interior Secretary Dirk
Kempthorne. "

>From what I've read and heard we are in about the 8th
year of a 20 year drought. I think we are still coming
out of the latest Ice Age.

COMT

It's called the "naughty one". haw haw. Ab.

Thought I would mention that today, November 25th is the 50th anniversary of the Inaja Fire Tragedy. The 11 men men who lost their lives did not die in vain. The 1957 report was issued and the 10 Standard Orders were brought about by this event. These orders and the knowledge contained within has saved hundreds of lives through the years. The 10 Standard Orders are gospel to all wildland fire fighters.

The area of the tragedy is in eastern San Diego County in the San Diego River drainage. Not far from this location is where Steve Rucker lost his life 3 years ago during the Cedar Fire. There are few similarities between the two fatal events. The one common factor is that both tragedies occurred after Santa Ana winds had abated, and the oceanic backflow had kicked in. In this area of the country, this typical condition is extremely dangerous because fires will go into a benign state of burning, only to be followed by unpredictable blow ups. Fires in the San Diego River can make rapid runs in four directions at once. I have seen this.

Here is a link for more info if you are interested in learning more.

They gave their lives for ours....

Keep em' small
SoCalG

A link to the 1957 Report is listed at the top of the Documents Worth Reading section of the Archives Page. Ab.

Thanks Lobotomy for the clarification. I had the advantage of knowing this is in the working stage. The fundraising efforts of everyone are appreciated. The networking efforts of everyone are appreciated.

We need to continue to fund the Foundation while working on possibilities of developing a sustainable fund for the long term. Ab.

SC

SC, Thanks for the idea. I have sent that idea on to the Foundation for consideration. Some ideas require cash upfront to create the product to sell. They require some kind of easy way to sell, package and ship a product. These things all take time and staff. Good idea, worth considering. Thank your dad from all of us.

Folks, please send in any more ideas you might have.

Also, regarding the current fundraisers. Please get family and friends to support these and other local efforts. This is the season of true giving.

Attend the 52 Mile Ultra Walk; don't just Pledge, but send in a contribution earmarked for that event now, even as you enter your pledge. It's easy. All proceeds benefit the Foundation. Thanks Eldorado shots and Norcal II for stepping up with this event. I hear a number of folks from this community will be there.

Order a 2007 Fire Calendar  from the Supply Cache. This fine effort was begun months ago and all proceeds benefit the Foundation. Thanks Jim and all.

Haw haw on your new moniker. This Ab gives it a thumbs up. Perhaps you should consider Old Fire Guy's suggestion below, for when you graduate?

Haw, haw! Nice one. Ab.

^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--TURKEY!

v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'

We give thanks for all of you and today we're thankful for our turkeys, too.
The Abs at wildlandfire.com

Anyone who has ideas for BIG fundraising projects, please speak up. Anyone who might have contacts we might approach for BIG fundraising projects, please let us know.

There is a NASCAR gig going on behind the scenes.... Anyone with any contacts is encouraged to join in and contribute. All help is awesome and appreciated. I also heard that there is a NFL gig also going on....... For those who have contacts, join in the networks and share your knowledge.

The goal.. $1 Million Dollars so that the Foundation can always provide the services that they do best when things go gunnysack around us.

I hate to say it, but must, the Wildland Firefighter Foundation almost went bankrupt again when the Esperanza Fatalities happened.

Folks that are grieving, and families that have had losses cannot continue to support the Foundation in their usual ways.... the bar needs to be raised. We need to look out after our friends, families, and co-workers the best way we know.

Lobotomy

We need to find a way to attract funds to build a capital endowment so the earnings of that account can fund the Foundation's (our firefighter families') needs. Thanks to Burk, Vicki, Melissa, Lillian for sticking with the effort in spite of the ongoing uncertainty. For all of our sakes, the Foundation needs sustainability. Ab.

6thyearrookie, you need a new moniker. Anyone got suggestions for our former firefighter gone LEO, some play on fire and LEO or lion, etc? As noname says, you're not a rookie although you might feel you have a lot to learn, and you're certainly not a rookie in this community given your contributions. Ab.

There are many, many folks that are glad you didnt go local agency,
and stuck it out with the FS. You taught so many so much over your
years. We thank you for that.

R5 Dispatcher

I am more than willing to answer any law questions you may have and if it is out of my knowledge base, I will work to get an answer. It may take some time because as I have recently found out, LEOs put in long hours (i would have to say they may be higher numbers than a firefighter when you take into account that it is a year round job) and have a whole lot of paper work to do, but I will make sure to work to help out in any way I can. Fire would have retained me if I had not had the thought of doing LE work in the back of my mind somewhere when I began 6 years ago. And to be totally honest, the PFT and slightly higher pay at the individual grades didn't hurt!! I loved the comradery of fire and the quality people I work with and network with on a professional and personal level. I found myself feeling right at home on my first day when a woman in the fire shop at a district I visited made me blush with a fun comment made without even knowing me. I am noticing the same in LE just with a different understanding and background.

Abs, in the event that you do have any law questions that you want to have answered, feel free to email them to me so that if I am away from they said I do not miss the opportunity to help out. As I am sure you know, I will be more versed with Title 36 CFR 261 laws but I am sure that I will be able to at the very least steer you and others in the right direction. And if I do not know, I will be upfront and honest and tell you.

6thyrrookie

Thenks. Ab.

"As some of you may remember, the Panorama Fire on the San Bernardino National Forest began on November 24, 1980.

A few years ago, the San Bernardino National Forest digitized one of the original master copies of the video titled Panorama Fire.

Recently, the Wrightwood Fire Safe Council and the original producer have made this video available online. Look closely at the narrator (he also served as the producer and editor) and listen to his voice. Some of you will recognize him as someone who is still very active in the wildland fire community as a public information officer. This year, some of the fires he served on were the Bar Complex, Heart-Millard Complex, and the Esperanza Fire."

I will add that I also was honored to serve as part of team that worked on the Engine 57 support effort... one of the most remarkable efforts I have ever seen or experienced.

The link that was posted earlier was taken off due to the large volume of downloads. This link should prove to be working:

www.incidentcontrol.com/disaster/Panorama1.wmv

The anniversary is two days away. Hardly seems possible that so many years have gone by. The lessons are still there.

Wildman

Oops on the downloads... We should have given wrightwood a heads up... Thanks Wildman. Ab.

Thanks for the clarifications, 6thyrrookie. And thanks also for your good research into the Garrity Rule etc. It's good to have former firefighters with new professional law connections who can get questions answered. We count you a valuable resource. I wish fire had been able to retain you. Our loss, but don't be a stranger to theysaid. Ab.

That is why I always wrote the letters for the kids .... also encouraged all of the "new" kids to take a look at the difference in potential retirements, benefits, etc... between a "Forestry Tech" and local agency firefighter .....

Lets see... do I want to be gone all summer and miss my kids growing up in order to make enough OT to pay for their college and a decent living OR how 'bout working for a local fire agency that not only recognizes its employees as firefighters but also pays enough that decent housing and college can be a reality on base pay... novel concept.. If I had to do it over, I do believe I would have opted for the local agency and seen my kids grow up ......

yactak

Thanks Ab for the good info. Straighten some things out for me. I do
understand about negotiations when it comes to the Feds. I work on a union
Forest.

Hopefully things will change for the better, sooner than later.

Another Old Forestry Tech Guy

Most of the nation's federal wildland firefighters are "organized" in that the Federal Government recognizes the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE) as the union that has exclusive bargaining rights for these employees (Title 5 of the United States Code).

As most know, fed employees do not share the luxury of the right to negotiate pay and benefits like CDF does. The only way to make changes to such things is by changing federal law.

The FWFSA (Federal Wildland Fire Service Association) is the organization that's the catalyst for HR 5697, HR 408 and other legislative initiatives. It's an employee association, not a union. From what I know, it is the only organization in the US working exclusively on behalf of federal wildland firefighters through the legislative process.

Within the FWFSA, I don't think there's any disagreement on what is going on or what should happen. The FWFSA Board of Directors take their guidance from its members. They do what they do on behalf of their members although the FWFSA's success will benefit all federal wildland firefighters.

From what I observed first-hand, the FWFSA is together and organized in what it is trying to do. It serves as the voice of its members who come from all 5 land-management agencies and who occupy all levels of fire positions. NFFE has the authority to use its power and influence on behalf of federal wildland firefighters as well, although keep in mind NFFE represents a number of federal occupations.

In fact NFFE and the FWFSA have worked together this year to fight the outsourcing efforts of the Forest Service.

The members of the FWFSA are heard and have a common goal. As Casey and others have said, the FWFSA can't tackle every person's ideas or opinions. It costs an incredible amount of time and money to be heard in Washington and even more to actually cement the support of congress. It isn't free.

If you're interested in change, the best advice I can give is to join the FWFSA, invest in your future and become part of its voice and success.

Ab.

I still believe in paper maps and compasses too. You don't have to worry
about a power source, easy to carry on the line and they always work. But
technology has come a long ways (cell-phones on the fire line). BLM's Calif
Desert Dist. engine captains have a Tough Book lap top with GPS and a
camera in which you can GPS a location in the middle of the night download
into the laptop and pull up a topo and so on. Retired CDD Chief Tom
Patterson helped them get these just before he retired. And now he works for
a company that develops this kind of software. Almost everything finds its
place in the fire service if its any good, remember when they showed us
class A foam?

One last thing to all Federal Wildland Firefighters.
Been reading all these messages about a Wildland Firefighter Series, HR5697
and that's all fine and dandy but there seems to be some disagreement on
what's going on or should happen. One thing is for sure, if WE do not get
together and organize ourselves and make ourselves heard then we will be in
for a long one sided battle.

We surly will not get everything at once but we have to start somewhere.
Good example CDF seasonals working 3 on 4 off. When I worked for them it
was 120 hrs. week no overtime.

We need to organize (union?), be heard and have a common goal.
Heck my first badge said Fireman on it.

Another Old Guy

DS,

We've discontinued raising money because firefighters who did not have liability
insurance have gotten counsel from a great lawyer as they've needed it. Thanks
Terry! If we need money in the future to insure that their constitutional rights are
not violated, we'll let everyone know. Money that was contributed for their legal
assistance has been returned.

Mellie

I didn't see it in the flyer from the Eldorado HS (except a comment of a base camp).
But, is there going to be a camping area available along the trail for folks to arrive
Friday night, and get a little rest before heading home on Sunday? Be nice to be
able to have a pot of soup simmering and other necessities available.

I hope to make it, and see a lot of other folks there.

Kenneth Perry

DS

The Old Man is a wise man. The technology, as wonderful as it is, is only good if you use it. How many of us have compressed air foam systems on our engines but continue to use straight water for mop up even after all the research indicates the superior penetration and effectiveness of CAFS? Mobile GIS will never replace paper maps and a reliable compass. It’s just a better way to simultaneously share knowledge and information with a lot of folks for the so called “common operating picture”. We have developed a GPS for Fire Management training course that is taught a various locations around the country. You can download all the lesson plans, student workbook, agenda, presentations etc. from:

http://gis.nwcg.gov/training_gps.html

Remember; in the immortal words of Buckaroo Bonsai, “No matter where you go…. there you are”!

Fire Geek

"Laugh while you can Monkey Boy!" Ab.

Hear, hear. I was thinking that myself this morning. Ab.

I've made a new page "You Know You're a Forestry Tech If ..." a celebration of the lighter side of (Forestry Tech) life... Ab.

Obenaufs is the best and has been the only treatment that I use on my work boots with the exception of an occasional greasing in late fall with a boot grease from Hoffmans in Idaho. Avoid any boot grease that has silicon in it except for products specifically designed to protect the stitching.

He should also do a thorough cleaning of the inside of the boot as the lining will accumulate excess salt from perspiration. I scrub my boots down and then fill them with warm water for a few minutes about twice a year: more often if I am in really wet conditions. A boot dryer is a must but care needs to be taken to not leave boots on for more than overnight as you can cook the leather (spoken from experience as I ruined a pair of Whites through not paying attention.)

The tag merely states that the boot is NFPA approved. My last pair of Nicks didn't have this tag as they were customs but all the pairs I looked at on the shelves did. I can't imagine leaving that tag in but he might want to for a while. Eventually it will be unreadable anyway.

Any excess mud or dirt should be removed before it dries as it actually pulls moisture out of the leather.

Last thing. Good quality boots can be rebuilt if there is no dry rot in the uppers. Cuts the cost of boot replacement in half and will eventually allow firepup to invest in an additional pair. Due to my weight and type of use I used to put on mine, I would be looking at a rebuild at least every three years. Course now the biggest abrader of the soles on my boots is the synthetic carpet we have in the district office.

Follow the directions and instructions you got and he'll be fine.

Hint: If fire pup decides that wildland fire is the career they have dreamed of, a Christmas present of a custom fitting would go into a stocking quite nicely.

FMO JOEBOY

Congrats Joeboy. Ab.

Anyone who has ideas for BIG fundraising projects, please speak up. Anyone who might have contacts we might approach for BIG fundraising projects, please let us know.

Thanks Eldorado IHC for your 52 mile ultra walk fundraiser. Pledges for that are going well. I decided to send mine in ahead of time. Ab.

There's actually a lot of cheap or free do-it-yourself
pseudo-GIS things you can do. DeLorme TopoUSA software
is good, and you can plug a fairly normal mid-range
handheld GPS directly into it. I've used it for
floods, SAR stuff, fire stuff, special events and even
assisting law enforcement. Google Earth and Google
maps (maps.google.com) are awesome if you can print
out ahead of time or if you have an internet
connection. They're all great ways to make quick,
accurate, professional maps. I'm a huge fan because it
de-ambigufies (is that a word?) spatial data, and
makes it possible to disseminate good maps much more
thoroughly through an incident, especially on small
incidents. I really believe in getting as much data as
possible to everybody on the incident, and if you can
get a good map to every single firefighter on an
incident, for 5-10 cents each or less, I think that
should really be done. I expect that as the cost comes
down and convenience comes up, on these tools, a map
will become as much a part of a wildland firefighter's
required equipment as a shelter is.

Nerd on the Fireline

The problem during a tactical firefight in many of these situations is time. Southern Ca wind driven fires are about time management. A long decision making period is rarely available. Now having said that, having it available to review and become familiar with in the field when time allows is huge. We all know the all mighty dollar drives everything we do, state and federal, and when it comes to making a decision about where to spend the ever decreasing money, keeping engines covered comes first.

These technologies are being taught from the basic academy level up to the command level. We are using digital data for fire behavior to survival and mapping classes and are advancing that avenue constantly. Are we doing it fast enough? No But again the money is the limiting factor.

As stated in another post, wind has been measured in excess of 80 mph on many occasions in So Cal and when the wind and slope came into alignment on the Esperanza fire these conditions were VERY possible. I think when the accident investigation team puts out its' report you will have a very clear picture of what happened. Be safe, we are not done in Ca yet!

Firedog

All proceeds benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

CA-BDF-E57 Always Remember Decal (crew57)

Ab.

The Panorama fire that burned 230+ some odd houses in 1980 shows how fast a wind driven fire moves in that country when Santa Anas blow. It's important for lessons learned. Here's the link again. Open in Internet Explorer or download to your hard drive and open. www.wrightwoodfsc.com/disaster/Panorama1.wmv

The winds were blowing such that firefighters had to position their hoses and themselves upwind of a structure they wanted to save, and usually that put them in the firestorm of the house or chaparral that was burning upwind from their position. Made the analogy "pissing in the wind" take on a whole new meaning. Ab.

So come one you guys and gals - help out any way you can. One person can make a difference.

I hope to see some of you there!

Lori

Casey, like me you probably need some time off, play with the kids, hug the wife, no more thoughts of Washington or bills being introduced in Congress or educating anyone for the next few days, and absolutely no talking to the turkey before popping it into the oven! Thanks for all your work in SoCal during the last weeks. Ab.

Take the time.

Midwest Fire Guy

Thanks for the info! I've built wireless stuff for LEO surveillance in the
past but wasn't sure if I was going to need some extra circuitry inline
somewhere to compensate for the Ohms differences, etc. That'll be easy.

Stay safe! "Kicks"

Casey, like me you probably need some time off, play with the kids, hug the wife, no more thoughts of Washington or bills being introduced in Congress or educating anyone for the next few days, and absolutely no talking to the turkey before popping it into the oven! Thanks for all your work in SoCal during the last weeks. Ab.

Greeting you all from south carolina

did anyone give that dozer operator a big pat on the back for staying put
and protecting the shots from more harm...

damm fine work, brother.

steve

www.fire.blm.gov/textdocuments/NewYorkPkreport.pdf (3076 K pdf file)

Out of curiosity, what are you basing the fire progression on?
Are there daily satellite images of the burn?

Mellie

I believe if there is a lesson to be learned here, it’s that the technology existed before the fire and no matter if you use a free application such as Google Earth or a high end professional Geographic Information System (GIS), we should use every tool at our disposal to base our tactical decisions. Before I retired from the Department of Interior I installed ruggedized Panasonic laptops with sunlight readable touchscreens, GPS receivers and wireless modem PC cards in the engines and command vehicles on the BLM CA Desert District. The equipment enables firefighters to have the geographic advantage to make informed decisions, to enhance their situational awareness and share their knowledge and size-up of the incident in real-time with dispatchers, other responding units and agency administrators. I have a presentation that I’ll be giving at a national BLM fire management conference in a couple of weeks that I’d be glad to share with you or anyone else who is interested in how firefighter safety can be enhanced with a few affordable commercially available off-the-shelf components.

Fire Geek

vfd cap'n... The point is that experience in working with Congress shows that change comes in pieces and steps and begins with a name change... Ab.

Gizmo, FireGeek offered a more detailed and really HUGE file. Would this be of any use? Ab.

While working Helitack, we have the PTT adapter cable which interfaces the flight helmet comms directly with the BK portable radio. The problem is that, as you doff your helmet and unplug from the David Clark PTT cable, you lose radio use until you have also unplugged the cable adapter from the side of your portable radio.

On the line, I tend to run the shoulder mike which just makes sense in avoiding missed comms due to noisy environments. This summer, I saw a shoulder mike with a short "pendant" coming out the bottom where you can plug the helmet comms in to directly. That's just plain down and dirty! The radio reverts back to the shoulder mike instantly when you unplug the helmet, and no need to pack around the second cable to do the "switch" all the time.

I looked at the mike and it was an actual Bendix King unit but the p/n sticker had come off. The short cord with the helmet plug comes out where "my" hi/lo vol. switch is. Later, I asked a Comm Tech friend about it and he said that he has never seen one, and that it sounded like something that had been modified from a standard shoulder mike.

I figure that someone "here on the porch" must have either a part number or some info on it.

As always, Stay safe! "Kicks"

This one is OK for now. Pretty neat, but it's huge. Don't try it unless you have high speed. Thanks, Fire Geek. Ab.

§ 5105. Standards for classification of positions

(a)The Office of Personnel Management, after consulting the agencies, shall prepare standards for placing positions in their proper classes and grades. The Office may make such inquiries or investigations of the duties, responsibilities, and qualification requirements of positions as it considers necessary for this purpose. The agencies, on request of the Office, shall furnish information for and cooperate in the preparation of the standards. In the standards, which shall be published in such form as the Office may determine, the Office shall-
(1)define the various classes of positions in terms of duties, responsibilities, and qualification requirements;
(2)establish the official class titles; and
(3)set forth the grades in which the classes have been placed by the Office.
(b)The Office, after consulting the agencies to the extent considered necessary, shall revise, supplement, or abolish existing standards, or prepare new standards, so that, as nearly as may be practicable, positions existing at any given time will be covered by current published standards.
(c)The official class titles established under subsection (a)(2) of this section shall be used for personnel, budget, and fiscal purposes. However, this requirement does not prevent the use of organizational or other titles for internal administration, public convenience, law enforcement, or similar purposes.

When the official title of a position, and the assigned duties do not meet existing classification standards, OPM and the Agency then must work together with subject matter experts to create a new occupational series.

One of the most interesting things that we have found over the years is that even federal hotel workers and federal laundry workers even have their own occupational series, and a proper classification for the duties they perform.

Lobotomy

Just re-read HR 5697 and I can't see any significant change to be caused by
it. Nowhere is the word "series" to indicate OPM will be developing a new
series for wildland firefighters. It just says "......Management shall
ensure that the official title assigned under such chapter to any
class.....shall include the designation of "Wildland Firefighter". Also,
it will have no effect on any pay regulations.

Vacancy: GS 462-7 Forest Technician (Wildland Firefighter).......

What am I missing?

Old Fire Guy

(Ab reply: Consider it part of the educational process. Like washing dishes and cleaning the bathroom, it never ends...)

VFD captain,
HR 5697 IS NOT intended to address pay parity; create new pay scales etc., as you refer to the law enforcement laws. First & foremost, in the eyes of congress, law enforcement & firefighters are apples & oranges. Add the "wildland" part of it and it becomes even more convoluted. That is based on 15 years of educating those folks on the Hill as to what federal firefighters do.

Let's try a bit 'o history shall we:

Up until 1972, The DOI (Park Service, BLM, BIA, Fish & Wildlife) and the USDA (Forest Service) utilized the GS-456 Fire Control series for wildland firefighters. In '72, at the request of the Forest Service, OPM consolidated the GS-456 with the GS-462, Forestry Technician and the GS-455 Range technician under the same classification standards.

The Fire Control series was then dropped and wildland firefighters were covered under GS-462 & GS-455.

This change allowed firefighters an opportunity to effect easy transfers into timber or recreation specialties within the 462 series. However the advent of primary & secondary federal firefighter retirement limited the incentive and flexibility of individuals to switch between fire & non-fire disciplines.

The classification changes that occurred in '72 reflected a change in management philosophy from strict wildland fire control to integrated resource management. This change allowed employees the opportunity to broaden their job experience by becoming well versed in areas other than fire control, including recreation, timber & range management.

The belief held by management was that firefighting was a seasonal occupation that lasted 3-6 months of the year and that a less specified position classification standard better reflected the true nature and expectations of the wildland firefighter throughout the year.

Weeellll, times have changed. As with any other firefighting organization in the country, tasks & responsibilities have changed. Whether it be responding to HazMats, medical aids, vehicle accidents, and, as you know for E-57 of the San Bernardino, child births, no longer is this a "seasonal" job.

Federal wildland firefighters have responded to typhoons across the globe (hurricanes in the Northern Hemisphere) to include Katrina. In fact, the Administration's own "Post Katrina" report referred to the Government's continuing need to rely on the all-risk skills of land-management agency wildland firefighters.

These employees have picked up shuttle parts in Texas, and performed any and all duties their counterparts in the municipal & state agency sector perform.

The problem now exists that when it comes to hiring, grade increases or positions reviews etc., OPM is relying on outdated standards that in no way reflect the current duties of wildland firefighters.

Simply, HR 5697 mandates OPM to develop a new wildland firefighter classification series to more accurately reflect the all-risk duties of our firefighters whether they be entry-level or FMOs.

It is not as simple as changing the name of the classification from Forestry Technician to Wildland Firefighter. The nuts & bolts of the standards have to be redrawn. Yes, it is a morale issue of course. Its also a no-brainer in the 21st century that standards applied 30+ years ago simply don't fit.

Sadly, this should have been an administrative fix, not requiring legislation. OPM simply failed to do what it promised to do and some in Congress lost their patience and introduced legislation to mandate the changes.

It would be delightful if Congress addressed federal wildland firefighter issues as they have law enforcement. It simply isn't the reality. It would be great to be able to craft a comprehensive federal wildland firefighter reform act with every issue addressed. It simply isn't going to go anywhere in the current congressional environment, regardless of which party is in control.

Furthermore, times are considerably different now than they were in the 101st Congress. You are suggesting that the congressional environment doesn't change over 16 years. I'm here to tell you it does and you take what they give you. I don't suppose LEOs had war funding to compete with, Homeland Security, Immigration etc.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It would be beneficial though for it to be an informed opinion. I certainly would applaud any effort on your personal part to advance the causes of federal wildland firefighters.

Perhaps as a volunteer Captain, you can tell us what future federal wildland "groundpounders" need and explain your efforts and actions to achieve those needs. I have the luxury I suppose of a membership that determines its goals and objectives and "needs" and places their trust and confidence in the FWFSA to get those things done.

For as often as you offer insight into the needs of federal wildland firefighters, I see two options: join the FWFSA and show us what you can do OR, just show us what you can do.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Ab note: If you open this in Microsoft Internet Explorer, it will download and begin as designed. If you use another browser, you must download and save to your hard drive before opening and viewing.

Thank you to the Wrightwood FSC, Wildman, and Wildman Jr. for making this video available online.

Lobotomy

Amazing eye-opener for those not accustomed to SoCal Santa Ana fire behavior. It's something OIG investigators should take a look at before considering action that could assign blame. The fire signature message is clear: Homes are just another kind of fuel type to the socal wind-driven fire. It's a pretty long video, about an hour. Ab.

Go to www.opm.gov, the office of personnel management, and use the search box, to type in "reinstatement eligibility"...it links you to the pages/docs that will help you.

Also: contact the office hiring for the specific jobs that you want, for example: contact a regional office, for Forest Service, vs Bureau of Land Management, etc. All government, federal job sites should be under opm, with same rules, but some agencies have special limitations for hire that you might want to know.

good luck
Lobo in TX

www.ifpm.nifc.gov/

noname

Posted the link above at the top of theysaid. Lookin' good, GIS Girl.

Readers, the Pledge page is doing very well, very well indeed.
To those who have pledged or plan to: Let me suggest you send your pledge in right now.

• We know the 52 walk will meet expectations and pledges will come due.
• Those who have made a pledge know we have the $ now.
• If paid now, the donation can be deducted from this year's taxes.
• The Foundation will not have to chase down pledges after the fact, a time-consuming operation.
• Maybe Burk will be able to change his phone message about not being there because he's out chasing down the good ol' American dollar???

Thanks for your participation everyone. Donate if you can, enter that donation on the pledge list. Hope you can make it to the event on December 9 and/or 10! Bring your family. Dinner and breakfast, it will be fun. Ab.

Hi* I was searching out articles about my sister, Evelyn Brenner, and I found her on your site. Thank you for memorializing her so sweetly. Just knowing that she had such a close and loving family within the Forestry Department, makes my days a little bit easier to bear. I miss her very much.

Love,
Marilyn (Evelyn's oldest sister)

Many miss her. Sorry for your loss Marilyn. Ab.

Comments made by Mike and Norm at the E57 Memorial Service on November 5, 2006

Thanks very much for sharing. There have been many requests for your comments.

Mike and Norm, I hope you know how much your leadership has meant and continues to mean to the fire community. Thank you for continuing to demonstrate who you are during these difficult times. Ab.

Sing me,

Re-up

Welcome, Jan.

I you want to see the Point of Origin go to 33 degrees 53' 59.54 N 116 degrees 46' 00.64 W. You will see a clump of trees on Esperanza Road. That is where the fire was set.

I found this program very useful in reviewing the CDF Green Sheet and it adds a lot to the lessons learned.

Stay Safe and Always Remember
Captmack

Two agencies dispute over deadly SoCal arson wildfire probe (CDF and Riverside Co Sheriff)

JS

Ab,

Here's some things for the Forestry Tech. line of thought:

Things to remember after demob when you return to civilization:

Don’t throw away your silverware after each meal
Don’t throw away your plate or cups either
Remember when using indoor toilets, don’t forget to flush
Yellow and green are no longer in style
You no longer need a demob slip just to go to town
You don’t need a request or order number to get everything
Drinks don’t come out of feed troughs or garbage cans
You no longer need to worry about breaking your fork at dinner
Paper is to write on, not to sleep in.
Water comes from a faucet, not a cubie
Lunch isn’t served in paper bags
Breakfast is anytime you want, not 4 a.m.
No generator will be available to “hum” you to sleep
News in on T.V. not on a bulletin board
Houses aren’t made out of plastic, nylon or cardboard
You don’t have to shower with 18 other people… unless you want to

You know you're a forestry tech. when assembling a mile and a half of hose and running up a hill to catch a fire is a good day.

You know you're a forestry tech. if you have ever cursed at a rookie for using armor-all on everything in your engine/crew haul, including the seats and gas pedal. (This makes for a very slippery ride to a fire for those of you who haven't experienced this.)

You're a forestry tech. for sure if you take pride in how long it has been since you washed your yellows.

Nor-cal firegirl

Here is a link to info about the "Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act".

www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-5697

This is "broad" language. For sure it would change names. Anyone know what else this would change? I'm sure that between enactment of this legislation and development of policy to implement it there will be "details". And there in lies the devil of unintended consequences.

Would a federal employee hired in fire management that is primarily fuels reduction be reclassified as "Wildland Firefighter"?

Would there be different position descriptions for Wildland Firefighters in areas that have taken on all risk initial actions vs. areas where the federal employee only does "wildland fire suppression"?

What about those folks that are wage grade equipment operators? Lots of them in the SE. Would they get special "Wildland Fire Fighter WG PDs? Would they have to convert from WG to GS?

Rogue River said:

The 0401 positions are General Biological Scientist positions without any specialty and will continue to be at the helm of wildland fire decision making.... How do we make sure it covers the entire federal wildland firefighting profession and the entire wildland firefighting community?

Since this legislation is name changing legislation what would you change the name of Fire Management Officer to? Wildland Fire Chief? And would that really change the PDs and knowledge and skills needed for the position?

Curious in middle America

www.goodsearch.com/

Please, folks, if you haven't already done so, take time now to not only add it to your computer, but also to pass along the information to everyone in your circle of friends, family and acquaintances.
To date $7.40. At even a penny a hit we can indirectly generate $$

Be safe y'all, think smart
River

I've been using it. Jim Felix suggested this the middle of last month. For those who didn't have a chance to explore using this, it's a good opportunity to have every click count. Ab.

www.thedesertsun.com

FC180

The U.S. Senate on Thursday passed a resolution introduced by California Sens. Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein honoring the firefighters and other public servants who responded to last month's Esperanza wildfire.

The resolution commended Esperanza responders "for dedicated service to the people of California."

"Firefighters honored the spirit of their fallen colleagues by completing the job they started and controlling the blaze, even while recognizing considerable danger to their own well-being," a portion of the resolution reads.

The resolution also commends law enforcement personnel who "are aggressively pursuing the conviction of the arsonist," as well as "generous Californians" who have contributed to a reward fund along with the Riverside County Board of Supervisors "to help bring the arsonist to justice."

In a separate statement submitted to the Congressional Record, Boxer honored the five federal firefighters who were killed in the line of duty while battling the Esperanza fire: Captain Mark Loutzenhiser, Fire Engine Operator Jess McLean, Assistant Fire Engine Operator Jason McKay, Firefighter Daniel Hoover-Najera, and Firefighter Pablo Cerda. In her statement, Boxer said,

"They and their firefighter colleagues represent the best of America, devoting themselves to public service even at their own peril. Every day, we depend for our safety upon firefighters and their counterparts in the areas of emergency response and law enforcement. I want to voice my enormous gratitude and respect for them."

Said Feinstein, "The five brave firefighters who lost their lives in the battle against the Esperanza fire gave the ultimate sacrifice. Their heroism will not be forgotten, nor will the sacrifices of their families.

"These five men of the Engine 57 crew were on the front lines, protecting thousands of lives and tens of thousands of acres when they were overwhelmed by the fire's flames. Their deaths represent a tremendous loss for the community, the state, and our nation."

fair use disclaimer

Thanks, Ab.

Just want to start out by saying, I love the forest service because of the training I have received, the fire I have seen, and the friends I have made, but how long am I going to wait? I was thinking (which is dangerous) has anyone sent an anonymous letter to a newspaper like the Washington Post or LA times about the fact that we are forestry techs, not firefighters, that if I retire at 25 years I get 42% of my base salary, which isn't enough to live on at 100%. I think that if we maybe got the attention of the media we could make them work for us. If the public knew what we know, maybe there might be some uproar. I'm sure somebody else has thought about this, and maybe tried it, but let me know, because I'm ready to make some phone calls right now.

still disgruntled in so cal.

Thanks
skd

Will the person(s) who sent in the IFPM link to the University of Idaho page on the Links page under education, please update us? That link is broken, page not available. It may be that most managers that had to meet Series 401 standards are well on their way to fulfilling their class requirements and the program at UI has been discontinued. Any info would help. If we can't find out anything, I will take down the link soon. Thanks for the heads up skd. Ab.

If my memory serves me correctly, it took somewhere around an hour to order the local BDF type 2 helicopter, which was located less then 10 minutes flight time from the incident even though it was immediately aware from the first minutes of the fire it was a certainty that it would make it to the forest. Once again I want to emphasize that I'm not placing blame on the unified ICs; I have an overwhelming confidence in these guys, I believe the correction needs to made in the ordering system and the SOPs.

I attended the pole position fundraiser for 57 yesterday and what a great atmosphere and event it was! The local municipal departments support of the event was awesome. Thanks to the Pole Position Raceway staff for facilitating the fundraiser. Those go karts were a blast and it was good to see a lot of people attend the event last night and show their support.

Mosquito

100% of all proceeds will be given to Vicki Minor at the Auction for the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation. NWSA has previously raised over
$76,000 for the WFF.

Anyone interested in making a donation for the auction please use the
attached form or you can email Debbie Miley, Executive Director
at info@nwsa.us

Deborah K. Miley
Executive Director
National Wildfire Suppression Association
www.nwsa.us

Kudos to the original serious WF Foundation fundraisers. Ab.

Here's the AP article - nicely done. It appeared all over the country from
FL to MN to TX to WA.

Fallen firefighters remembered at fire center ceremony

BOISE, Idaho - When Bodie Shaw visited the World War II memorials and Vietnam memorial in Washington, D.C., he viewed them with respect, but also with detachment.

But when Shaw heard about the memorial for wildland firefighters, it was different. Shaw worked on a first response fire crew for six years, and has friends killed in the line of duty who have been honored in the memorial.

"Here I felt a connection, because I'd done this. I knew what they'd been through," said Shaw, a Bureau of Indian Affairs fire manager and a member of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which created the memorial.

Shaw was one of dozens gathered at the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise on Wednesday to honor firefighters past and present, during a ceremony for five men and women killed while battling wildfires who were remembered with memorial stones. <for the rest, click the link>

<here's another paragraph toward the end about the Chief...>
The ceremony also included performances from several local Indian tribes, in part to recognize contributions of tribal members who were among the nation's first firefighters, speakers at the ceremony said. Members of several tribes danced and sang, and Chief Delvis Heath, of the Warm Springs Tribe in Oregon, sang a traditional song honoring a fallen warrior.

Just sign me "Background".

Very nice article. Ab.

Hi Ab,

We wanted to let folks know that the Wildland Firefighter Foundation does have bricks available for purchase, that are then placed at the Wildland Firefighter Monument located at the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC), here in Boise. Bricks are just $49 - they make wonderful Christmas presents and are a tangible, public display of support and a way to honor someone special. The Monument is visited by hundreds of people each year.

To order a brick, click this link Brick Flyer print the form and mail it in with your payment.

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
2049 Airport Way
Boise ID 83705
Ph: (208) 336-2996

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lori's Original post from 10/16 and feel free to review last month's enthusiasm, following Lori and Nora's request:

YOUR HELP IS NEEDED!!!!!

Nora Chambers is the daughter of Dean Chambers, a Helitack Captain for CDF out of Columbia. For her senior project, she has decided to make a quilt (or two) out of fire patches and old nomex. When she is done with this, the quilts will be auctioned off and all of the proceeds will be given to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. How can you help you ask? If you have any crew patches or old nomex that you would be willing to donate, that would be great! Duplicates are more than welcome as she would then be able to do the 2 quilts. I have gone through John's patches and old nomex and I will be donating those. So I am asking all you firefighters, both federal and state, to send anything that you can to Nora. You will be helping out two causes at once - helping her fulfill her needs for graduation and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

Her address is:
Nora Chambers
P.O. Box 4142
Sonora, CA 95370

If you have any questions, you can email her at: marianchambers @ aol.com <copy and remove the spaces>
I know you guys can make this a reality! Thanks for all your help....

Thanks WY FF. Sometimes folks assume we receive important docs. Usually we do. However, every once in a while info falls through the cracks of assumption. We'd rather get multiple emails than have something overlooked. For those who have been off theysaid a few days, this came in last Saturday morning (following its release late Friday). Let me bring all the links forward. When I get a moment, I will put 'em on the Documents Worth Reading page. It is pretty amazing reading. Alignment of Forces, etc. Good to see Doug Campbell's life work for firefighter safety percolating into a 72 hour report. Ab.

Esperanza Green Sheet (word doc) / Spread Map (pdf file) / Labeled Contour Map (pdf file) / Site Map (pdf file) / Site Map Detail (pdf file)

Ab:

I would like to "tag on and expand" on the assessment that "Wxgeek" provided on 11/15 concerning the 100 mph wind gusts issue at the Beaumont RAWS at or about the time of the tragic BDF-Engine 57 burnover on October 26, 2006. "Wxgeek" suggested that there might be another explanation for the "100 mph gusts" that showed in the data stream from the Beaumont RAWS. That hypothesis is right on!

A review of the hourly observations for the Beaumont RAWS stored at the Western Region Climate Center in Reno, NV ( www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/rawMAIN.pl?caCBEU ) shows that parity errors during the transmission of the data resulted in the "gust direction" of 100 degrees being pushed to the right, and into the "gust speed" column. Persistence of the gust speeds before for and after the transmission anomalies supports this. The "100 mph anomaly" occurred 5 times in the data set for October 25-27, 2006.

The patterns present in the data suggests that there were not gusts of 100 mph, and that the gusts were more probably in the 30 - 40 mph range. The final determination will, of course, rest with those associated with the investigation teams.

Thanks.

UTR (Under the Radar)

Thanks UTR. Ab.

"Friends, family and colleagues gathered in Boise today to honor the men and women who put their lives on the line fighting wildfires.

This year 23 firefighters were killed in the line of duty across the country.

The Wildland Firefighters Memorial at the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise is a very special place.

It is a place where family, friends and fellow firefighters can come to heal and cry.

Native Americans helped honor the fallen firefighters with a flag song, followed by an honor song by the Umatilla tribal drummers.

Throughout the memorial monument are the markers of 112 firefighters who were killed in the line of duty.

Vicki Minor with the Wildland Firefighter Foundation knows the stories behind nearly every marker and says they serve as an important reminder to the living.

“It’s about the healing that happens here for the living. It’s about firefighters that work shoulder to shoulder with these firefighters and have a place to come and bring an offering or ashes from the fire their on, or just to touch those memories that are buried in them,” said Minor.

For those that have visited the memorial, it really is a very moving place.

Throughout the memorial monument are the markers of 112 firefighters who were killed in the line of duty."

May they always be remembered,

River

I heard from Burk that as the Chief wrapped that blanket around her, she melted into its embrace and the burdens of her life melted away. Burk said she has never been so touched by anything in her life. He was touched as well. My personal thanks to the Chief for so honoring her/Foundation/firefighters with blanket and song. Ab.

Abs

If you don't already have it here is a link to some of the news coverage of the ceremony held in Boise yesterday. The footage of Vicki shows her wearing a Pendleton blanket that was presented to her by the chief of the Umatilla tribe who also did one of the honor songs. When he did his song he requested no pictures or recordings so no footage of that. www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-nov1506-firefighter.3d93afe4.html.

BeenThere

They may have shortened the clip. It is preceded by a little commercial of "Ellen" in lotus position... not Vicki. But there is a very brief footage of the Chief. Unfortunately, no longer any footage of Vicki in the blanket. [Correction: one contributor says she's in the other video that has a link on the same page.] Maybe someone took a photo yesterday and will send it in. (Maybe this is a message we should hit Ellen up to support the Foundation.) Ab.

F/F aka Audio Geek

I don't know if that has been evaluated, not on theysaid anyway. Could be the mechanics/expenses of the process could take a big chunk of the donation. Worth researching in any case. Ab.

We're taking down the link to the Firefighter Legal Assistance Fund info and we Abs wanted to update you.

It seems that firefighters who did not have liability insurance -- who worried that they might need counsel -- have been making contact with very knowledgeable volunteer lawyers as needed. We are assured they may continue to do so.

THANKS to many who provided a legal safety network and peace of mind for our guys and gals:

• Many, many thanks to the lawyers who stepped up to help.
• Thanks Mellie for putting out the request and helping make the first contacts.
• Thanks to the firefighters, one of whom had a very awesome family member who is helping.
• Many, many thanks to FWFSA, its members and especially to Casey Judd who took the lead on the inter-communication with our premier lawyer and actually set up the assistance fund account.
• Thanks to donors. Your donations will be returned to you soon. (I hope we can call on you again via theysaid if the need arises.)

The silver linings in the investigations' challenges we've faced recently are the following:

• Terrific people with incredible law expertise who have family members working in fire have come forward to offer their services.
• We have learned how to quickly set up a Firefighter Legal Assistance Fund.
• We have gotten feedback that this kind of tangible legal support is valuable beyond words to those in a fog, wondering if they might need it but not knowing what to do.
• Collectively we're ready to activate the legal safety net the next time on a moment's notice so that our wildland firefighters' constitutional rights are protected.

Hopefully, there will be no next time if the Hastings/Cantwell Law can get corrected and the agencies can figure out the investigative process. We all want Lessons Learned.

In addition, we have had extended firefighter family members with expertise who are willing to offer assistance on other firefighter issues that involve cumbersome bureaucratic processes following injury.

I want to say how proud we Abs are of this fire community and how honored we are to work with you, the individuals from many agencies, vollies and the public sector fire organizations like NWSA, and the AD firefighters, and IAWF; and how proud we are of our Wildland Firefighter Foundation, Vicki, Burk, Melissa, Lillian, and the FWFSA, from the founders who appeared before Congress many years ago to those who have stepped up to make a difference to all federal firefighters in the recent few years, especially to Casey and some others who must remain unnamed.

The Abs.

AJ, Here's a link to their contact info. I don't think it's likely you can just purchase a crew shirt. It's commonly known that you have to "be one or d* one", that is, be one or get one from a current member of the crew.. It's no wonder the Forest Service has been of little help. As I understand it, everyone has to follow the same rules and the FS doesn't make them, the hotshot crews do. Ab.
www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html#bitterroot

This list is like the ones we've hosted for past events like Ken's Ultra Runs that also benefited the WFF. It's easy to pledge using the Pledge Entry Form and easy to see the list of pledges on the Pledge List Page. Links join the different pages. We also hope to provide maps and photos with links on those pages. GIS Girl has said she will help with maps and at least one unnamed firefighter photographer from SBF who supported Ken's first run will send photos from the walk as it is happening.

Good timing between Thanksgiving and Christmas. It's a busy time of year but will provide a meaningful family activity in keeping with the true values of the holiday season! Get your scouts and little league sports teams and kids church groups involved. Walk for part or all of the course. The course is set up to be participant friendly and a pretty walk for any walker.

For full information on this event, please go to the 52 Mile Walk page on the Eldorado IHC website (link at the top of theysaid). It should be updated soon. I hear they're hitting up sports groups around Sacramento to pledge/donate as well. Can others in our fire community do the same?

NorCal Team II is helping with logistics, etc. Thanks to them. This whole event is shaping up. Should be a fun event.

Ab.

Ab, Here's another good article on Crew from E-57 from the Idyllwild Town Crier:

‘Lotzie’ — a friend, a sport and a mentor

There are actually a lot of very fine articles written in the intimate style
of a small close-knit community that you can access via links at the
bottom of that page...

Mellie

Forest Service Brings Help about Feser's team stepping in to help.
A black day for local firefighters, etc.

I was looking for other info. Went to the Engine 57 Memorial site (you have
a link above) and there's a link to the Channel 2 Memorial Service for E-57.
I think that link that works is pretty new. It says

VIEW THE CBS2 MEMORIAL LIVE WEBCAST - CLICK HERE

It has been very difficult for the families, the District and the Forest. The support that was given was unbelievable and very much appreciated. To know people cared really made a difference in how we have been able to cope with the tragedy. The San Bernardino Forest really came through with supporting the firefighter families and the district, and I know they suffered a great deal of pain as well. The Chief of the Forest Service, The Director of Fire and Aviation Management, Regional Forester and his Deputy, and the Regional Fire Director all made special trips to show support. There were untold number of municipal agencies that participated in employee funerals and the Memorial service and just offering to help.

The CDF provided a great deal of support. I will never forget Chief Hawkins coming to Vista Grande Station to express his condolences to us the morning of October 26. The California Highway Patrol was magical getting all of the District equipment to the services on time, they even picked the routes of travel for us. Don Feser’s Incident Management team really did an outstanding job working in very difficult circumstances. They supported the families with Liaisons and Supervisors, provided direction for all the public donations, assisting with funeral arrangements and the Memorial service. They coordinated and provided counselors for any employee support. They were outstanding.

The Forests in Region 5 also showed great support in sending resources for coverage to the Forest for all of the services. The Horseshoe Meadow Hotshots and Shasta T Engine strike team, besides providing coverage, completed many mundane tasks form washing vehicles to cleaning up the School grounds for Mark’s memorial service. One of the Shasta Engines finished the repainting of the Alandale Station sign and remounted it proudly in front of the station.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation, especially Vicki Minor, were a most Blessed gift to all of us. Thanks also to the Wildland Firefighter Association who assisted employees immensely. Thanks to Kenny, Mike, Veronica, Betty, the Honor Guards, Dan, Eric, Alfredo, Mark, Allison, Don and Jan, and all of the other folks I am forgetting. I guess I have rambled a bit, but I just wanted to let everyone know that the great outpouring of support was truly appreciated.

Let us always remember Mark, Gus, Jason, Pablo and Danny by being the best we can be on the job and off.

Noname

Recommendation #5: Fire management agencies and fire departments should ensure that fire fighters utilize all available resources (lookouts, helicopters, or lead planes, etc.) when investigating fire activity located in an area that does not have an established escape route.

Discussion: Fire management agencies and fire departments should ensure that fire fighters utilize lookouts, air attack officers and aircraft when investigating areas with increased fire activity before committing themselves to an area that does not have a designated safety zone or escape route(s). Lookouts located along a ridge may have a better vantage point where they can provide valuable information on current and potential fire behavior. Helicopters and fixed wing aircraft can provide ground forces with an assessment of the situation as they have a wider view of the burn area. Utilizing available resources for remote investigation will help to ensure that fire service personnel remain in those areas that have designated safety zones and escape routes.

Fire fighters should utilize all available resources (planes, lookouts, etc.), when available, to provide them with remote investigation capabilities. This would reduce or eliminate the need of placing fire fighters in situations where escape routes or safety zones are not available. At this incident, a helicopter and lookouts were available to provide additional information regarding a large column of smoke spotted by one of the lookouts. No additional remote investigation or reports of fire activity occurred prior to the victim proceeding into the drainage where there were no designated escape routes or safety zones.
- www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Sawtooth_Prescribed_Fire_Fatality_NIOSH_Report.pdf

They will probably make an almost identical recommendation for Devil's Den.

vfd cap'n

All Hazard Response Guide: www.fs.fed.us/r8/allhazardresponse/

R8 Fed

From the Aug. 31, 2006 issue of the Idyllwild Town Crier

Forest Service crew delivers baby boy
By J.P. Crumrine
Assistant Editor

On Sunday in the midst of the musical pandemonium at the Jazz in the Pines, another bit of pandemonium occurred within a mile of the Forest Service’s Alandale Guard Station.

Engine 57’s crew, led by Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser, delivered a baby. “This was first time I know of anything like this,” he said.

Jody and Claudia Posey of Idyllwild left home to deliver their baby at a midwife’s in Indio. They barely got beyond Alandale. Jody flagged down a car and asked the driver to alert the Idyllwild Fire Department, according to Claudia.

Fortunately, he stopped at the first fire station, Alandale, and crew 57 responded. With two paramedics on his crew, Loutzenhiser felt comfortable dealing with the emergency, so he began directing traffic while Jesse MacLean and Jason McKay helped the mother who was already having contractions.

According to Loutzenhiser, McKay delivered the baby boy or at least was the official catcher.

“It was the most painfree delivery I’ve had,” Claudia said. Brodyn Posey is her third child.

Eventually, an ambulance arrived and took the mother and child to a hospital, but both are well and at home now.

Editor's note: All of the Alandale firefighters mentioned in this story died in the Esperanza Fire Thursday, Oct. 26.
www.idyl.com

KCK

The Abs have been contacted a number of times by the media to provide contacts and info. I always tell them to call Casey. Haw Haw. (Dick, they misspelled your last name the first time they quoted you.) Ab.

Blame in Esperanza fire deaths may shift to forest service employees

Guy McCarthy, Staff Writer
Inland Valley Daily Bulletin
Article Launched:11/11/2006 11:58:04 PM PST

Even though a jailed arson suspect is charged with murdering five firefighters in the Esperanza Fire, some Forest Service employees fear they too could be targeted for blame in the deaths.

At least four separate investigations are under way to explain exactly what happened Oct. 26 on Gorgonio View Road, where the crew of Engine 57 perished in a burn-over while trying to protect a home.

Some Forest Service employees are particularly wary of an investigation by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Office of the Inspector General.

Veteran firefighters and advocate groups worry the IG will assign blame in the Esperanza Fire deaths rather than identify lessons that can improve firefighter safety in future blazes.

"I am concerned there is a need to introduce the human perspective into firefighting investigations, to ensure we learn as much as we can from these tragedies," said Richard J. Manga, Montana-based president of the nonprofit International Association of Wildland Fire. Mangan helped investigate the 1994 Storm King deaths of 14 smokejumpers and firefighters in Colorado.

"Too often we look at weather, fuels and fire behavior, but we don't look at human factors.

"With Engine 57, these guys lived nearby and they were protecting their own community," Mangan said. "I'd let a house burn down in some instances. But put me in my own community, and that might change things. That's a human factor to be considered."

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, a lobbying and advocacy group, has started a legal defense fund for anyone who was in a decision-making position at the scene of the burn-over on Gorgonio View, from engine operators on up.

"We were asked by some of our folks on the forest, San Bernardino, to look into availability of legal counsel," said Casey Judd, FWFSA business manager, who is based in Idaho.

"Some have already secured the help of a legal defense team who worked on the Cramer Fire," Judd said Monday,

referring to the July 2003 fire in the Salmon-Challis National Forest in central Idaho. Two firefighters who rappelled from a helicopter to clear brush on a steep slope died when they were overrun by flames.

In the wake of investigations that followed, six Forest Service managers were disciplined, including an incident commander who left his job and served 18 months on federal probation.

The criminal prosecution stemmed in part from a U.S. Department of Agriculture Inspector General's investigation mandated by a 2002 law, Judd said.

"The Forest Service is the only federal land management agency investigating accidents and fatalities so aggressively, specifically to burnovers and entrapments," Judd said.

LEARNING FROM TRAGEDY

Mike Dietrich, fire chief for the San Bernardino National Forest, said he tells all his management employees to protect themselves with insurance.

"Because of this new law, every Forest Service employee who's in a management position should have professional liability insurance," Dietrich said. "This is a case of arson where federal employees have died, and I don't know what the outcome will be as far as the IG's investigation."

The 2002 Hastings Cantwell Act calls for an independent investigation of any Forest Service firefighter death caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover. Lawmakers cited four firefighter deaths in the 2001 Thirtymile Fire in Washington state, and the 1994 Storm King tragedy.

Paul Feeney, deputy counsel for the Department of Agriculture's inspector general in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday his office has dispatched investigators to the site of the fatalities in the Esperanza Fire. He said he could not discuss details of the inspector general's investigation.

"We're not trying to be coy or secretive," Feeney said in a phone interview. "We're just trying to do our work."

Mangan raised several concerns about the inspector general's anticipated approach.

"When we're on the fire line, we have a decision-making space of seconds," Mangan said. "But the U.S. Attorney can take two and a half years to review everything I did in my whole career and my training."

Before the Cramer Fire disciplinary and criminal actions, firefighters who witnessed or took part in fatal incidents were more open and forthcoming about discussing details that could improve firefighter safety, Mangan said.

"On the Thirtymile Fire, people were honest - Hey, I screwed up,"' Mangan said. "It was about lessons learned, not slamming your ass and putting you in jail."

Since the Esperanza Fire is only the second time the USDA inspector general has been assigned to a burnover or entrapment situation with Forest Service firefighter fatalities, many people are worried, Mangan said.

Fear of discipline and-or prosecution may discourage people from sharing information that could enhance firefighter safety, Mangan said.

"Everybody is looking very, very carefully at what comes out of Esperanza," Mangan said. "Could they say if these guys didn't follow their training, that they screwed up, that it was not the arsonist's fault they died? It's raising these kind of first-time questions."

Mangan and others who have worked on previous firefighter fatality investigations have been critical of the process.

HUMAN FACTORS

Ted Putnam, an 11-year smokejumper, fire behavior specialist and psychologist based in Montana, studied the fatal fires at Storm King in 1994 and other firefighter fatalities before he retired in 1998.

Last year, Putnam received an IAWF Wildland Fire Safety Award and the Paul Gleason Lead by Example Award at a 10-year reunion conference addressing human factors in wildland firefighting.

Putnam is an outspoken critic of fire agency fatality investigations.

"Stress, fear and panic predictably lead to the collapse of clear thinking and organizational structure," Putnam said in a 1995 paper for the Forest Service on decision-making breakdowns that preceded the Storm King Mountain fatalities in Colorado in 1994.

"While these psychological and social processes have been well studied in the military and the aircraft industry, the wildland fire community has not supported similar research for the fireline," Putnam said.

"The fatal wildland fire entrapments of recent memory have a tragic common denominator: human error. The lesson is clear: studying the human side of fatal wildland fire accidents is overdue."

The void has yet to be filled, Putnam said in phone interviews.

"The one thing we never did, we have no training system on how to improve decision-making," Putnam said.

Mangan said Putnam worked for him during those investigations and that he and Putnam both refused to sign the initial report.

Mangan said he joined Putnam in not signing off on the initial report about Storm King fatalities because he felt there was "too much emphasis on mistakes made by individual firefighters, and not enough examination of managerial factors."

Agencies investigating the Esperanza Fire include:
Riverside County District Attorney
Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture
Occupational Safety and Hazard Administration (OSHA)
Cal OSHA
California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection
U.S. Forest Service

fair use disclaimer

"There was apparently little or no review of accidents such as the Loop Fire and Bailiff Fire to illustrate the importance of safety guidelines. None of the surviving Vista Grande crew was even aware of the Rios fatality on the Bailiff Fire in 1967. The Rios fatality occurred about three miles from the spot where Miller was burned. The Vista Grande crew was well acquainted with the 10 Standard Orders. They had no knowledge that the failure to heed five of the ten orders resulted in the Rios fatality within four miles of Vista Grande four years earlier."

I don't believe it was as simple as the 1971 investigators put it, but they did their best for what they knew back then. On the Mack II Fire, there was a complex set of weather patterns, fire behavior, human factors, stressors, and what is just simply noted best, the unknown....Things we may never fully understand, even though lots of us will continue to strive for understanding them... but will never know the true answers.

What concerns me is the lack of information on the Bailiff Fire. Back in 1971, the investigative team thought it was important enough to cite it (Bailiff Fire) several times in their investigative report..... but no official written record of the fire can be found anywhere other than the press?

FC180, there are only a handful of CDF folks left around that started in 1967 or prior.... I would venture to guess I probably know half of them already... I even know one that started in 1957 (if I remember correctly from my "lectures".. tongue in cheek and in all respect) who is still contributing on a regular basis in various ways to this community and by helping "CDF Firefighters", your Union, even though he never was represented by them during most of his career. I met him in 1984 while I was working in Solano County as a Volunteer FAE and then a paid Fire Captain for a rural fire protection district during my off seasons. FC180, I would love to talk with the person who had the first hand knowledge of the Bailiff Fire if you can put us in touch with each other through Ab.

FOBS7, I would love to have you to put me in touch with the person who has the large database of case reports from the 1960's through 1970's. How cool that someone has kept those records.

What kinda strikes me funny right now is that many of us have probably been chatting and battling with old friends for years here on They Said and never actually really realized it...... or we were taught by mentors who at some time knew each other in the past, times of despair, and taught us our beliefs and views and how we react to things now..... and now all of us "newbies" are starting to reap the rewards of corporate knowledge that can never be replaced, only built upon and and remembered. Now, that is a lesson learned that I hope to carry forward in the future.

Lobotomy

They are going to host an event in Ontario CA for Mark, Jess, Jason, Pablo and Danny. If I can get around the I-15 closure I'll be there. I've missed the show these past few weeks but rumor has it that they were talking about the lack of benefits and the pay that we make versus the job that we do. Again I can't confirm that.

For more information on the equation below log on to: www.johnandkenshow.com/archives/2006/11/14/1218/.

For you So. Cal folks they are on the air Mon-Fri 3:00 - 7:00 pm and I think you can also listen over the internet.

Ab note: <no equation> the graphic was too complicated

See ya there!

BATGRL12

This is a fundraiser that two of our local radio shock jocks are doing to raise funds for the families of E-57. If it is like any of the other fundraisers they have done, there will be lots of money generated for the families, and of course... an increase in their listeners and ratings.

www.johnandkenshow.com/archives/2006/11/14/1218/

CLASSIFICATION  LEGISLATION  MOVING  FORWARD

I am pleased to report that after a number of conversations with House & Senate leadership today, it is evident that they too share the desire to put HR 5697, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act will be placed on the House suspense calendar the week of December 4th.

Should it be passed by the House, it will be sent to the Senate for action. Thus we are ensuring the bill is on the radar screen of the senate leadership so that should it be passed by the House and sent to the Senate, they will act to pass it as well.

More to follow.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

You could buy a pair of White's and help finance all of the yuppie outdoor gear in
the new warehouse in Spokane or you could go online to Nicksboots.com and
request a sizing kit. You can order both off the shelf or custom built boots from
them. Can't stress enough the need for quality footgear for folks coming into the
fold at the entry level.

ToddC

Old Sawyer.

After all the struggles, the meetings, etc......... Bodie Shaw BIA, Burk Minor WFF, and Dave Muller BLM, spent a $100.00 on sand... and laid all those bricks from early morn till evening, by themselves. As stout as those 3 guys are, I still think we should take up donations for them to see a chiropractor.

The installation has been designed so that it will be easy to add more new bricks...

My new brick order is going read.

Many Thanks to
the Abs
WildlandFire.com

Thanks Abs for all that you do and are... You have created a place where we as a community and family can come and scrap, ask question, and answer questions, and argue, and share, and love, and heal....

Vicki Minor

Nice job, guys. Thanks Vicki. We Abs just do it 'cause it needs to be done.

Here's the Pinnacles 72 Hour Report on the BLM Water
Tender Rollover.

BLMer

Sula Fire 2000, firefighting liability ruling (450 K pdf file)

Please read the attached. It's good news from a firefighter liability standpoint. The case involves a tort claim against the government with the plantiff claiming that a backfire ignited by a Division Supervisor resulted in property damage on the Sula Fire in 2000. The ruling sets a very broad framework for what constitutes discretionary function in conducting fire suppression operations. I expect we'll hear a big sigh of relief throughout the wildland fire community as they read this. In summary the the Judge states:

"A firefighter's weighing of risks becomes more complicated and more difficult with increasing development, but the balancing of risks and benefits constitutes policy-based discretion to execute the Government's duty to provide for the common good. Those decisions should not be "second guess[ed] . . . through the medium of an action in tort."

Congress created the land management agencies and granted authority and broad discretion to fight wildfires on public lands. How federal agencies fight wildland fires and balance the concomitant dangers to lives and property on public and adjacent lands constitutes the exercise of discretionary social, political, and economic policy.

The Government actions are protected by the discretionary function exception. Whether the Government employees' actions were wise, foolish, or negligent is irrelevant in considering whether the exception applies."

This is great news.

Mark Beighley
Director, Office of Wildland Fire Coordination
Department of the Interior

They're working on the logistics. Ab.

Thanks to the folks who helped with the beta testing. You saved us a great deal of time and we appreciate it.

The Abs

CLASSIFICATION LEGISLATION...GIT R DONE...

The FWFSA is working with key legislators to get HR 5697, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act added to the suspension calendar in Congress before this session ends.

The suspension calendar is a list of bills that are non-controversial and would be expected to pass if time permitted them to get to the floor. Passage of these bills requires a 2/3rds vote and bills are not amendable.

The suspension calendar is a perfect place for HR 5697 because it was reported out of the Government Reform Committee by unanimous consent meaning that members of the committee from both sides of the aisle agreed to report it out favorably.

In order to get it on the suspension calendar, we are working with the office of the Author, Rep. Pombo, as well as the offices of the following:

Government Reform Committee Chairman (majority party) Tom Davis (R-VA)
" " " Ranking Member (minority party) Henry Waxman (D-CA)

House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-OH)
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)
House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-MO)
House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-MD

and a few others.

Those of you firmly believing that the time has come to create a wildland firefighter series can help.

First and foremost, contact should be made with Pombo's office. He's the author and if he wants to move something before the balance of power changes he certainly has the ability to do so.

Pombo's fax is: 202-226-0861
The DC office # is 202-225-1947
emails should go to: michael.defilippis@mail.house.gov

NOTE: I will provide contacts for the other offices as it becomes necessary.

If you choose to contact Pombo's office, simply state who you are, what you are (federal wildland firefighter), supporter thereof etc., where you live and your request to have HR 5697, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act added to the suspension calendar.

If you want to add "on behalf of those lost and seriously injured in wildfires this season" or "on behalf of federal wildland firefighters across the nation..." feel free to do so.

To track the number of contacts he gets, it would be great if you would be willing to Cc the FWFSA by fax 208-775-4577, email: cjudd@fwfsa.org or via the web contact form on our web page.

There is very little time left to work this issue. This week Congress is working to pass a Continuing Resolution (CR) which will fund the government until they return Dec. 4th to take up the suspension calendar and other actions.

Additionally, the Senate Interior Appropriations bill is still a viable vehicle for HR 408, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act. If you choose, while contacting Pombo's office on the classification bill, you can also ask for movement on HR 408.

Ironically, Sen. Burns is the Chairman of the Interior Appropriations Committee and he is well aware of our efforts to move 408. I'm not sure how receptive he'll be to firefighters after his loss but it can't hurt to try.

His fax is 202-224-8594
Office # 202-224-2644
Staff contact: heather_stefanik@burns.senate.gov

PLEASE be respectful in your communications with these two offices. Like them or not, they have done more than their fair share for wildland firefighters over the years, foot-in-mouth disease (Burns) notwithstanding.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

I hope this helps!

Always Remember!

PFT  FPT.

Yes, we would like the number. Is this going to be a 52 mile walk to your office? Ab. (tongue in cheek)

I'm sure you have been inundated with questions regarding the entire
E-57 Memorial Video. I tried the link that someone posted back on the 6th
and they seem to have no idea what I'm talking about regarding the video.
Any information on where I can order one for the district fire folks?
Below is the posting that was listed on the 6th.

Thanks, JTO

-Cara wrote:

JT,
CBS 2 has a video of the memorial service posted at
http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_309095328.html.

If you would like to purchase a copy of the video the form
and 800 number are at https://system.netsuite.com.

Cara, any updated info on where this can be purchased or who we might ask? Anyone on Feser's Team know? Chuck? Ab.

Potential Entrapment, Rivera Mesa Fire (MS Word doc file)
New Mexico State Forestry, Las Vegas, New Mexico
June 18, 2006

I have some slightly dated training material. Everything for S-211
and some other stuff. I'm cleaning up and planning to get rid of it
unless someone wants it.

You're welcome to give my email to anyone interested.

Thanks,
Bill

Pricey, but a very good book for those interested in more than just
suppression. This will probably be one of the textbooks folks have to use
to get their 401's..............

TC

Added it to the Book Reviews List. Ab.

Pyro 5755

Hi Sbrrymom. The <snip> is to avoid his embarrassment when he moves on up and writes in here. Happens faster than you think. Ab.

Been There Done That... for a very long time. Not looking for
an education, Just posting my 2 cents worth.

CW

How true. Thanks for your contributions CW. Ab.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Contra Costa Times, CA - November 13

In August, I wrote about Jesse Shirley, the El Dorado Hotshots firefighter who was seriously burned in a Nevada fire, and his recuperation. His mother, Thea, called me and wanted to update everyone about Jesse's condition.

She said Jesse is back to limited light duty. He cannot be outdoors without protection from the sun, and it will be another year before he is ready to assume his duties again.

After the terrible loss of four firefighters just a few weeks ago in Southern California, and a fifth who had been hospitalized with burns over 90 percent of his body, Jesse called the Forestry Service to see if he could help. He flew to Southern California to stay with that firefighter, Pablo Cerda, and his family at the hospital. Unfortunately, Cerda succumbed to his burns.

Thea and her husband, Jim, wanted to thank everyone for their letters and cards while Jesse was recuperating, and they wanted people to know about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, where people can make donations to help these firefighters and their families and others around the West who need assistance. If you'd like to help, go to www.wffoundation.org.

Bakersfield Californian, November 8

Raffle to benefit families of firefighters killed in wildfire

A raffle benefiting the Wildland Firefighter Foundation is under way.

Proceeds will aid the families of five firefighters killed in the Esperanza fire. The winner will receive a sewing machine.

Rawles Sewing Machines and Vacuum Cleaners is sponsoring the drawing. Tickets are $1 each or $5 for six. The drawing will be at 4 p.m. Dec. 2 and you do not need to be present to win.

Rawles is inside the Jo-Ann Fabrics & Crafts, 3010 Ming Ave. For more information, call Helen at 831-1411 or 809-8069.

Sierra Sun, November 7

"Tahoe National Forest employees collected close to $10,000 during the "fill the boot" drive on Sunday to support the families of the five firefighters killed in a Southern California arson fire."

"All donations from Sunday's fundraiser will go to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, an organization that provides immediate financial and emotional assistance for the families of fallen firefighters."

"Ferguson said a lot of people recognized the boots the firefighters were holding and knew their money was going to a worthy cause."

Redlands Daily Facts, November 6

A fund has been set up at Arrowhead Credit Union by the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in support of the families. Donations may be made at any Arrowhead Credit Union or may be sent to Wildland Firefighter Foundation, 2049 Airport Way, Boise, Idaho, 83705.

Yuba.Net, November 6

Eldorado Hotshots Plan 52-Mile Walk Fundraiser

Phew, Vicki, sign this guy/gal up! Let him/her keep the hammer. Ab.

For those who did not hear of this fundraiser, a Friday post by FirePig; don't miss it:

Pole Position Raceway, an indoor Go Kart track in Corona, CA is hosting a
fundraiser for Engine 57 this coming Wednesday 11/15/06.

www.racep2r.com/index2.html

Here's what a young lady who hangs out on a desert motorcycle racing
website I'm a member of sent me:

"Firefighter fundraiser at Pole Position Raceway in Corona, CA on November
15th. This is a special benefit to raise money for the families of the
five firefighters who lost their lives fighting the Esperanza fire. For
those who do not wish to race, donations will be accepted. Each standard
(14 lap) race will be $25.00. They will "keep the doors open until there
are no more racers".

This is a great cause ... and Pole Position is a very family oriented
venue! Hope to see ya there!"

Good post. Thanks for noticing about who steps up so often, It always amazes me how some accidents affect the public so much more that others. As far as media coverage or recognition goes so many go by with so little and some become such a big deal. Then in compensation one family gets $5000.00 and another gets $150,000.00. Not fair really but then I guess nothing seems fair when accidents happen.... Weren't they ALL good firefighters worthy of remembrance?

Got my Hammer

As far as "Most of us just want every cent to go to the families" How is it that you know what most of us want? Seems if you read enough here that you will find there is no such thing, with the exception of less accidents. As for me I give and then let that organization decide what to do with it. How do we keep the doors open at places like the Wildland Firefighter Foundation without employees getting a pay check now and then? or paying the rent or electric bills ? If you truly want to see organizations like these keep the doors open to help in the year 2007 or 2027 then we must let them decide where the money goes. It seems short sided and unfair to expect them to give "every penny" to the families of one particular accident. I do understand that some funds are earmarked for certain families, I just think the bulk should be a general fund donation to an organization you believe in.

I say choose wisely where you give your money and then just LET IT GO.

CW

We're into the CFC season (Combined Federal Campaign). I noticed that
the Wildland Firefighter Foundation is not listed among the charities. It's too
late for this year, but hopefully they can get listed for next year, it would
boost their financials significantly.

-Dozershot

FWFSA press release

What a surprise to see those pictures after 50 plus years. Alan Turk identified several of the guys on the crew. I started as a Hotshot in the 1952 season, and became the L.P. Hotshot truck driver in 1953, and drove and fought fires during the 1954 & 1955 seasons also. That's probably me (Bob Purvis) standing by the Hotshot truck in one photo. I think that is Joe Gonzalez (5th from left in top row), and Lee Powers (somewhere) in the other photo. I agree that that's Porky Moreno (seated front row, far left), and Ed Bensen (standing far left in top row). A lot of these guys had gone to Santa Ynez High School . . Alan Turk, Denny Treloar, Joe Gonzalez, Lee Powers, and myself, among others.

It was great to see some of these old friends at the 50 year L.P. Hotshot Anniversary get together held in 1999 (actually delayed until 2001 due to extended fire season).

Thanks for putting these photos on your site.
. . . Bob Purvis

Whoohoo. Thanks, Bob. I'll add that info to the photo descriptions page. Ab.

I saw someone looking for this info. I thought it was already posted. See attached files for the Green Sheet and several different maps.

WRM

Esperanza Green Sheet (word doc) / Spread Map (pdf file) / Labeled Contour Map (pdf file) / Site Map (pdf file) / Site Map Detail (pdf file)

7107

Casey is no one's union rep, just an "office manager". Sure is a knowledgeable one. Ab.

We got the POV stickers, just need to figure out how to get them sent out.
Kind of a logistical problem, on duty sales, etc, etc. So I will contact
Vicky Minor and see if she can help us out with this dilemma. so lets be
patient, we will get them out as soon as possible. If you work on the
Berdo, you know how to get a hold of me. Maybe we can get them spread out
over the district and get the money where it needs to go, off-duty of
course :)...

Stickers will be 5$ a piece, with donations going to the families/WFF Fund,
we cant forget to help out Vicki, we know how she helped us out.

Thanks,
Calkins

I've got to chime in here once more because I don't suppose there is anyone who posts on this forum who knows Congressman Pombo better than I. I have spent 12 years developing a relationship with him, his family & staff. I have taken the time to educate him on the issues and taken the time to initiate dialogue with him and many other "rabid radicals of the right." (also loony liberals of the left) Why??? Because they've run the show for the past 12 years. And, unlike backseat drivers, have been able to change their minds on issues because I've taken the time to work with them rather than stand on the sidelines ranting about them.

Let's be honest. Much of what is thought about any given politician (and I'm guessing neither Mollyboy or Hugh C. live in California's 11th congressional district) is developed through the media. It's easy to "label" politicians as this or that based upon what one reads or hears and how that information is spun by either a Democratic newspaper or a Republican newspaper.

I'll say it again. I don't agree with many members of congress as it relates to their ideology on a variety of issues. However if the FWFSA were to try and advance the issues on behalf of federal wildland firefighters based upon the "perfect, pleasing to all" candidate...we'd make no progress at all...Because there are none.

The irritation in this post is directed at the labeling of an individual based not on personal knowledge, but through a collective process of 1) one's own beliefs 2) the inference that the politician's beliefs are different 3) what one reads and hears 4) the lack of any real effort to engage the politician on the issues, preferring to stand on the sidelines and bash them while others work their collectives A_ _s off with those rabid politicians on behalf of the same folks who are branding them as evil.

With all due respect to Hugh C. & Mollyboy, there appears to be no mention of the $5million "out of district" money spent to defeat Pombo, for a seat that pays $150 grand??? Thought provoking sums. Now, the residents of the 11th district have sent packing the House Resources committee chairman for a rookie who, regardless of his party's control of the House, will be relegated to the "back row" and be told to shut up & listen for a few years before he says anything that will likely be heard... even by his own party's leadership.

Folks...there is no perfect politician. You try to educate them all. You remain persistent, regardless of party affiliation. That's why we have more democratic cosponsors on Pombo's legislation than Republicans...because we're colorblind to party, color blind to ideology and simply expect every one of them in DC to understand our plight and go to bat for our federal wildland firefighters.

Focus your ire on those who truly deserve it... start with Mark Rey. To original Hugh, as I've already posted, the FWFSA will not skip a beat on working the issues. It doesn't matter if Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives or polka-dotted elephants run Congress. We'll educate all of them until our federal wildland firefighters get the pay & benefits they deserve.

Casey

Actions are always louder than words but, Casey, I'm glad you have both words and actions. Ab.

Anyway hugh carson, last time I looked Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi were not co-sponsors of the bill. You may have not liked Pombo but his name is on the record! I'm afraid that to pelosi and reid we are but small fish and they are looking to get even with the right and even if it was the right thing to do (pass the bill) they wouldn't be able to swallow their pride and DO IT! Just my humble opinion and oh yeah look what conrad burns did..... His actions were LOUDER than his WORDS.... my my, and we threw him a dagger.... nice

Casey, Hang in there. Maybe just maybe the Bill could get passed before the demo's take over...

original hugh

OK folks, we're not going to get heavy into politics here. There are plenty of sites you can go to that cater to political discussions. Ab.

Assignment Definition
An assignment is defined as the time period (days) between the first full operational period at the first incident or reporting location on the original resource order and commencement of return travel to the home unit.

Length of Assignment
Standard assignment length is 14 days, exclusive of travel from and to home unit, with possible extensions identified below. Time spent in staging and preposition status counts toward the 14-day limit, regardless of pay status, for all personnel, including Incident Management Teams.

Days Off
After completion of a 14 day assignment and return to the home unit, two mandatory days off will be provided (2 after 14). Days off must occur on the calendar days immediately following the return travel in order to be charged to the incident. (See Section 12.1-2) (5 U.S.C. 6104, 5 CFR 610.301-306, and 56 Comp. Gen. Decision 393 (1977). If the next day(s) upon return from an incident is/are a regular work day(s), a paid day(s) off will be authorized. Regulations may preclude authorizing this for non-NWCG and state/local 32 employees.

Pay entitlement, including administrative leave, for a paid day(s) off cannot be authorized on the individual’s regular day(s) off at their home unit. Agencies will apply holiday pay regulations, as appropriate. A paid day off is recorded on home unit time records according to agency requirements. Casuals (AD) are not entitled to paid day(s) off upon release from the incident or at their point of hire.

Contract resources are not entitled to paid day(s) off upon release from the incident or at their point of hire.

Home unit agency administrators may authorize additional day(s) off with compensation to further mitigate fatigue. If authorized, home unit program funds will be used.

Mollysboy

You said that "..since Conrad's "Dagger in the Heart" could well have been his comments to the Augusta IHC last summer in Billings, Montana airport." Maybe, but don't read to much into that. More likely the good folks of Montana were dismayed that Mr. Burns had become so close to Jack Abramoff. Along with his close association with Mr. Abramoff, Mr. Burns seems to have suffered from chronic foot in mouth syndrome. See the link to wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Burns

Midwest Fire Guy

MS

Here is a pile burn of 140 acres near some homes I burned on
Thursday. I might have to make it the Family Christmas Card lol

JS

Thanks, I put it on the Fire 33 photo page. Definitely end of the season in northern USA. Ab.

hugh who wrote in with the question about the firefighter bill is original hugh. If you check back in the archives he's there often speaking to firefighter issues. Well, now that I look back, he's mostly in the old old theysaid archives which are not available online for viewing.

Mollysboy may have been replying to the Hugh I think he knows - Hugh Carson - who has been a strong recent participant on theysaid and an advocate for wildland firefighters, most recently for AD firefighters.

I have gone back and added <original> to original hugh's posts to try to clarify.

I understand what you are saying, My point is that pombo was the sponsor of the bill and everybody else was a tag along. What happens now? Does it die a slow death because we are not high enough on the other co-sponsors' radar or does somebody else take the lead? Say what you want about pombo but he did step up to the plate for firefighters. That is more than I can say for 400 odd others.

<original> hugh

Re stickers, decals:

Evidently there are at least two sets of folks who are doing stickers/decals.

One on the San Jac is doing the engine decals.

Another (Station 11) is doing helmet and vehicle decals.

Someone asked about decals. That's all I know. Ab.

Haw haw. Good one. Must have been asleep when I posted SWA's post last night. Thanks for playing Ab. Ab.

The last time I looked, the reason that we were involved in wildland fire management was to help achieve natural resource management objectives. In my view, the philosophy and legislative intents of Richard Pombo were doing more damage to our natural resources than fire could ever do, no matter what the job series/classification of those working to suppress them.

"Sleeping with the Enemy" just because he does your bidding is dangerous business, and almost always comes back to bite you.

Conrad Burns needed to go down for a number of reasons, and Pombo needed to go down because of his approach towards our Public lands and their management.

Last Tuesday, we won battles, and must continue to fight the other battles for wildland firefighters. There are still 535 members of Congress that must be convinced to pick up our causes - Montana's new Senator Jon Tester is a likely candidate, since Conrad's "Dagger in the Heart" could well have been his comments to the Augusta IHC last summer in Billings, Montana airport.

"You can't pick your relatives, but you can pick your friends".

Mollysboy

SWA

hugh

Ab clarification: This is the "original hugh" from the late 1990s theysaid.

The LaVerne Firefighter Association and Pole Position Raceway invites you to be part of a special benefit to raise money for the families of the five firefighters who lost their lives in the Esperanza Fire.

"This should be an incredible event" said Firefighter Engineer Leonard Kilman of the LaVerne Firefighter Association. We want this to be a huge public event" (and so on, see below...)

AVD

We have a color picture (flyer) of the announcement sent by AVD. I typed in a little bit. If you want it, just ask and we'll send it. Ab.

Give that fat guy and his dwarves a pulaski. Ab.

We will never understand fire behavior or human factors on tragedy fires until somehow we all become, and are recognized as wildland firefighting professionals rather than Forestry and Range Technicians in support of Foresters and allied ologists...... Not general biological scientists.

The post-Storm-King-actions were supposed to send us on a trajectory toward greater professionalism and greater safety. The IFPM 0401 Educational Requirement..... aka the 0401 series was supposed to do that, but has taken us still further away.

The intent to professionalize wildland firefighting is a noble intent, the actions in response by the bureaucrats were horrible..... much like what happened with the Hastings/Cantwell Bill...... The intent was noble and good, the outcome... a real mess. People got involved who never should have been invited or somehow they invited themselves into the discussions for future firefighter safety.... the true intent.

Sorry for stepping in on your discussion about what happened.... My comments may not mean much right now, but they may in the bigger picture of the future, when folks re-focus.

Sorry it may be a confusing post.... I apologize.... it will make sense later to some of us. It is late.

I am a Bio grad (ologist) and that doesn't cut it for fire professionalism and safety

Bio grad, thanks for contributing. Ab.

"The United Way will distribute hundreds of thousands of dollars donated to the families of five firefighters killed in last month's Esperanza Fire, county officials said Wednesday."

"Supervisor Marion Ashley said the nonprofit organization has agreed to distribute the money without charging any administrative fees. So far, about $700,000 in cash and pledges has been raised."

(Now reported to be over $800,000 from local sources and nearing $900,000)

Thanks to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (WFF) and the United Way for providing needed support in this time of need and waiving administrative costs. While we all understand that administrative costs are the norm in Foundations and Charitable organizations, some have better records than others. Some Foundations and Charitable organizations know when to lead and when to follow. You two organizations have a very good and continued reputation amongst the wildland fire community as accountable and are viewed as true leaders.

I wonder regrettably about the contributions made to the California Fire Foundation. I have heard they have an admin fee in excess of 40% and were one of the most publicized places to contribute to the fallen and their families. Hopefully they will follow the lead of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and United Way in waiving their administrative fees on donated money for the families of the E-57 fallen and make sure every dime goes to the families without political gain.

Someday, I hope the WFF never has to ask for money to support the immediate, and continued needs of the families of our fallen and injured.

Still haven't gotten the final word on what H4H is doing, hopefully they are also donating their administrative fees for the funds they are receiving. They are a well known and well needed charitable organization also.... just not usually in this capacity. H4H folks, speak up and meet the bar. Tell us what you are doing... and planning..... Should we as a wildland firefighting community support your efforts or send the funds elsewhere..... your PR time, not mine. Most of us just want every cent to go to the families....

At some point, all of us need to also meet the bar and make sure that all of our brothers and sisters are protected in the future..... the best way we can do it is by networking and spreading the word..... making sure the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and other worthy groups are there to provide support for the 2007 losses...... and I hate to say it, but it is fact, losses will happen again in 2007...... and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation will be the first and last ones there supporting the families, friends, and co-workers as they have since Storm King.

Raise the bar.... Always Remember.... and as someone said the other night, "Pay it Forward".

Got my Hammer

Hour 

Total 

Note the wind anomaly found between 6 am and 7 am. Wind gust speeds increased from 31 mph to 100 mph. Wind vector was nearly due east with only a 10 degree or less separation. Column was heading due west towards the ocean. Some terrain channeling was observed changing the wind vector due to topography.

Shortly before 7 am, a large vertical column developed to a height of approx. 12,000 to 15,000 feet. It was higher than Mt. San Jacinto as a gauge.

Shortly after the vertical column development, the column went horizontal again with little further vertical development. No pyrocumulous were observed. Without pyrocumulous development, there is little chance that an adiabatic column collapse occurred. Looks like the column was sheared and all of the lofted embers and superheated gases then headed upslope and downwind towards the accident site.

Noname

I hear what you're saying R5er. I asked and have heard from some firefighters on the BDF who have said sorting it out might help them if the tone is like an AAR. Ab.

Captain 3-1

Here's part of one email that came in that asked pertinent questions. Remember this is not personal against the crew or against others that the crew might have been working for. To some degree we all have these questions.

Why were they there at that time? Did they know where they were on the topography and what the risk was? What about LCES? Especially where was a proper safety zone given the fire behavior? Was the engine an IA resource or part of a strike team; who were they working for? Who assigned them to the area, and did the division sup scout the area before assigning them or was is the typical chaos of the fist operational period were there was a lack of organization and communication? How long were they at the home before the fire hit them? Did they see the fire behavior prior to protecting the house? How long had they been assigned?

And from another:

From some distance away the column changed just before or around the time the fire blew up. How did the Santa Ana winds change or did they? Was this unusual for Santa Anas at 0700? What, besides winds, could account for fire behavior like that? Was there some kind of simultaneous ignition like seemed to happen on the Sawtooth Fire? Where there any hints it was coming? What was the smoke on the ground like? Visibility? Still dark? What time exactly? How fast was the fire traveling? Are there any records? What about other fatality fires? Do we have any models that can predict that? If no models, how can we better keep safe?

Readers, please remember that people are still hurting. If you choose to enter into this discussion, please keep it about issues and not personalities or agencies or people.

While writing your post, please keep the feeling of community you experienced during the memorial service for Engine 57.

Ab.

Esperanza

Description that accompanies the jpg.

Wind driven fire blows the flames into the
fuel in front of the advancing line of fire.
Spotfires introduce radiant heat in the fuel
in advance of the line of fire.
Under high fire danger conditions the spot
fires become can so numerous and
Preheating fuel so intense that the area
seems to ignite all at once.
This situation is one of these with the
potential for area ignition.
The burn pattern signature seems to
indicate this is what happened.
The fire and observations of the fire
behavior are the ground truth. The fire
models are ill equipped to account for all
the variations in this scenario.

Ab.

Although it appears that the local group working to coordinate the Loutzenhiser Family's home improvement isn't going to pursue the Extreme Home Makeover application process, you can still nominate the family on your own. Here is the link: http://abc.go.com/primetime/xtremehome/casting.html

Simply fill out as much information as you can on page 2, complete your contact information on page 4, complete your purpose for nomination on page 5 and mail application to the address listed on page 9.

Thanks again,
Lisa D

~SLG

Ab note:

Here's that clarification, I'm correcting it below as well:

The Daniel Duran Memorial Fund
P.O. Box 2422
Ramona, CA 92065

Make check payable to:
Daniel Duran Memorial Fund
For electronic deposit:
Bank of America
Routing # 540930135
Account # 0907742336

The Frank D’Amico Memorial Fund
c/o Father’s House Church
4481 Estrella Ave.
San Diego, CA 92115

Make check payable to:
Father’s House Church
Memo: Frank D’Amico

Phew, my envelope hadn't been picked up by the mailman yet. Ab.

This is a plea from me to please donate some money to the two families who lost firefighters in non-Line-Of-Duty-Deaths last Saturday as they headed back on a curvy road to the Cleveland National Forest.

I just spoke with Vicki for clarification of WFF Mission and Vision.
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation helps financially with LODD and we barely squeek by with that in a season like this one. The Foundation also helps families with filling out forms, insurance issues, getting stuff donated by local businesses, etc, the services where they have expertise. Non-LODD firefighter families are often invited to Wildland Firefighter Family Day and other events that the Foundation hosts when the WFF knows of a need. This is especially valuable for children and spouses of firefighters, to play and talk with others who have experienced loss and to feel first-hand what their dad or mom did as a firefighter. Bottom line is that the Foundation (our 52 Club) does not have the financial means to help everyone. But we can help independently by "passing the virtual boot" for these two families.

So dig a bit deeper and help the Cleveland firefighter families with funeral expenses, etc. The mom with little kids especially tugs at my heart strings.

Mellie

I found the article below in the Idyllwild Town Crier this morning. As a former resident of Idyllwild, I should have realized the town would take care of the Loutzenhiser Family. Thank you for everyone's support for the EHM idea. Looks like Larry's Team has it covered. We'll support them directly at the PO Box listed.

Thank you Larry for keeping us informed and taking the lead.
Bless you!

Lisa D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Efforts to Remodel Mark’s House

Thursday, Nov. 11, 2006, 12:02 p.m.

To clarify the question in regards to "Extreme Makeover," we are NOT
pursuing that route. As many of you found out when accessing the website,
there is an 18 pg. application.... who knew!!! We also came up with an
alternative contact, but as of now no one has contacted us. Someone told us
the show was no longer 'in business.'

AND, more importantly.... the firefighters in particular and the community
in general want to complete the project for Maria and the kids in Mark's
memory. With the plans by Rbt. Priefer already filed with the county, and
lots of willing know-how the job will be lovingly completed by Idyllwild and
her extended community. The project is in the 'preparation' stage. Larry
Donahoo of Village Hardware is ONE of the project coordinators. PLEASE DO
NOT CALL HIM AT THE STORE; he has been inundated with calls, which
obviously interferes with his business. Think "Parts and Labor"; Labor or
materials.. or both! PLEASE SEND H IM A NOTE telling him how you
would like to help:

Larry Donahoo
Village Hardware
PO Box 1155
Idyllwild, CA 92549-1155

Wilson speculated that the "dagger in the heart" of Burns' re-election efforts may have been when he cursed out some members of an elite Virginia firefighting team at the Billings airport in July. Burns told one firefighter the crew had done "a piss-poor job" of battling a fire near Billings and told a state official the firefighters "didn't do a God-damned thing."
Senator Burns was defeated in his re-election bid.

Mollysboy

I think that you had a great idea!.. If I could afford the trip right now,
I'd put my nail bags on and travel.

great idea!

woodsman20

If losing the Engine 57 crew wasn't enough to suffer through this month, on the evening of November 4th, 2006, Cleveland N.F. firefighters Daniel Duran and Francesco “Frankie” D’Amico died in a traffic accident in the Pine Hills area near Julian. This tragedy has left the families with significant financial needs that we can help with. In the case of Daniel Duran, a wife and and two daughters are left behind with no source of income. In the case of Frank D’Amico, the family is struggling to cover the funeral expenses. The following is information regarding the memorial funds for both firefighters.

The Daniel Duran Memorial Fund
P.O. Box 2422
Ramona, CA 92065

Make check payable to:
Daniel Duran Memorial Fund
For electronic deposit:
Bank of America
Routing # 540930135
Account # 0907742336

The Frank D’Amico Memorial Fund
c/o Father’s House Church
4481 Estrella Ave.
San Diego, CA 92115

Make check payable to:
Father’s House Church
Memo: Frank D’Amico

The Cleveland N.F. would appreciate any assistance other firefighters could help provide to these two families.

Thanks for writing in, Cleveland N.F. Someone needs to call the Foundation to see what help might be available. I'm putting two checks in the mail. These young men did not die in the line of duty but their families have funeral and other expenses nonetheless. In addition, Dan was the breadwinner; he left a wife and two small children. Firefighters, can we do more? Ab.

Skip down to Larry's post yesterday. I think folks on the ground there are all on the same page. Ab.

www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=201064

LACO firegirl

Sounds like a fine project to do for Lotzi's family. Ab.

Our thanks to the hotshots who behaved professionally to Burns in the Boise airport when he first jumped on them. Seemingly small behaviors can make a huge difference in revealing character and professionalism. Ab.

A coin counting machine has been donated.

2 cents

Please remove spaces from email addy. Ab.

• "The internet"... and
• "How Conrad Burns characterized visiting firefighters..."

Amazing

Thanks, everyone, for this community

Amazing

Mellie

Please, let's have all recognized. Good work. Ab.

I'll pass the other contact info along. Ab.

The families are being taken care of. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation cut each of the families a large check a number of days ago to cover their current expenses. Prior to that the Foundation stepped in and paid for many initial expenses. Vicki is good at getting the handle on any kind of need and filling it quickly. This is what other organizations and agencies can't do and why families really feel supported by our 52 Club donations and other contributions. Ab.

Got My Hammer

I think it's a reasonable question. Accountability, pure and simple... Any legit organization collecting money for victims doesn't mind answering that question. 9/11 educated lots of us about where our donations did or didn't go and how quickly those in need of support got what they needed. Ab

2 cents worth (times several thousand)

Evidently there are at least two sets of folks who are doing stickers/decals.

One on the San Jac is doing the engine decals.

Another (Station 11) is doing helmet and vehicle decals.

Someone asked about decals. That's all I know. Ab.

Donation of the site or part of it to a suitable organization or agency capable of maintaining it would be tax deductible. In addition, conveyance of a conservation easement for what has become a historic site may also qualify. I will do some deeper research on the tax issues. Maybe the WFF would be interested in holding an easement and maintaining the site. The Abs can keep in touch with me on the issue.

Old Sawyer.

We are in the organizing steps now, with a meeting tomorrow to set the timeline. Maria and the kids will be moved into another home while we open up the existing structure and evaluate the condition. Once done, we will be able to figure out what materials are needed to do the project.

We still need funds to get the project off the ground, as well as to buy materials we are not able to get donated. If anyone wishes to send anything to help, here is the info:

make checks to:
Habitat for Humanity
Loutzenhiser Building Fund
PO Box 1743
Idyllwild, CA 92549

I will try to send periodic updates so all of you will know how it is going. Starting next week, our local newspaper will post updates on their site, towncrier.com as well.

Please keep all 5 of these brave men and their families and friends in your prayers. And I do agree we now have 5 new Angels looking after us.

Larry

Thanks Larry. Please do keep us updated. Ab.

The more they can be set up to stay afloat now, the more can be saved for college. Please ask if Extreme Home Makeover can kick in for that too. Ab.

Thanks,

JT

Ab forwarded it.

I don't recall another Fatality Fire that involved an entire engine crew, on a home district, on private property. This accident site has already become a place of memoriam for many, as I imagine it always will be.

That said, my question is this: Is there a way to approach the owner of the property to create a permanent memorial site? Or are memorial sites usually done in some other general area to the actual accident site??

Secondly, as some may know, Lotzi was in the process of putting an addition onto the families' 2 bedroom, 1 bath home. Yes. 5 kids in a 2 bedroom home. It's tight and homey to say the least. Donations are on their way to help finish this work. However, there is so much more this family needs, and I want to nominate them for Extreme Home Makeover. Okay, I know, that sounds corny. It sounds crazy. It's a long shot. I just need to do it now while this is still current on peoples' minds. Maybe someone else has already done this? If they have, I'm going to do everything I can to support them.
I am still in shock and awe of the memorials I attended this weekend for Lotzi and the entire crew of Engine 57. I thought I was done with "fire", but this has made me realize that the bond never leaves you.

I am a former VGHS, and so very grateful to, Art, Rocky, Pete, Jess, Tony, Garrett and VG, WFF the district and the BDF for taking such good care of the surviving families and friends. So very proud of you, one and all.

God bless you all. Always.

You can sign me,
Lisa D

Especially you firefighters in Montana, VOTE, but everywhere, really, VOTE. If you have ever visited other countries, you'd know how lucky we are here in the USA with the constitutional opportunity to set our own course. VOTE.

Ab.
(L<snip>, no backtalk! haw, haw)

I wrote this in 1994 after South Canyon. DF

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THE DRAGON

EVERY SUMMER THE DRAGON COMES IT LEAVES AGAIN IN FALL
IT VISITS DESTRUCTION ON VARIOUS KINGDOMS THROUGHOUT THE REALM.

THE DRAGON HAS A NAME

WILDFIRE.

SOME YEARS WILDFIRE IS SLOW AND LAZY AND EASILY BEATEN.
BUT OTHER YEARS IT IS QUICK AND LIKES TO FIGHT HARD
WILDFIRE HAS FRIENDS WITH NAMES LIKE FUEL WIND AND TERRAIN
FUEL IS DRY THIS YEAR AND BURNS HOT AND FAST WIND SEEMS STRONGER
TERRAIN NEVER CHANGES.

WILDFIRE HAS ENEMIES WITH NAMES IT KNOWS, HOTSHOTS SMOKEJUMPERS ENGINES TENDERS TRACTORS HELITACK AND TANKERS

WHEN WILDFIRE VISITS A KINGDOM ITS ENEMIES RESPOND WITH STRENGTH AND NUMBERS TO BATTLE

THE DRAGON

USUALLY THE DRAGON LOOSES QUICKLY AND RETIRES FROM THE FIELD OF BATTLE
LEAVING ITS ENEMIES TIRED BUT UNHARMED

OTHER TIMES THE DRAGON FIGHTS FIERCELY AND MAY EVEN SEND SOME OF ITS ENEMIES
TO ANOTHER PLACE

DEATH.

SOMETIMES THE DRAGON WINS
WHEN THE DRAGON WINS IT SEEMS LIKE THE BATTLE IS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT

FOR A WHILE

THE ENEMIES OF WILDFIRE MOURN FOR THEIR FALLEN COMRADES AND COMFORT

EACH OTHER

THEY GAIN STRENGTH, FAITH, HOPE, ENOUGH TO JOIN THE BATTLE,

ONCE MORE.

FOR THE DRAGON WILL RETURN.
 

However I also want to say this to every emergency worker out there: Remember why you chose to do the job you do; it isn't for the recognition or the great paycheck LOL but whether it was because of compassion for others, the thrill of the job, or the adrenaline high you get from the job you do. This has taken a toll on you as well as on us and we know that. I believe Jason would want all of you to remember the good times and not just the bad. To remember what it feels like when the sound of the tones calls you to duty, remember the feeling of a well fought fight, remember the feeling you have when you get back to the station, when you're so tired you can barely put one foot in front of the other and yet you still have a smile on your face because you won another one.

I know the anger and the frustration you are feeling but what I don't want is for you to forget the other things that mean so much to all of us.

Also remember the next time you go out on the line you will have a little extra help from 5 firefighters with brand new wings looking out for each and every one of you.

I also want to say thank you to everyone who has laughed with us, cried with us, and remembered with us. You made a very tragic time much more bearable than you will ever know. I wouldn't know where to start on making a list of all those people who have helped us since this happened so thank you all.

God bless, God speed
Kim McKay
Jason McKay's sister
You can sign it as I have it written

I am not much of a writer, speller or grammatical genius, but here are some of my fragmented thoughts and feelings.

I knew three of the fallen, Lotzi, Gus, and McKay. I knew Gus the best, for the time that I worked with him, he was a life saver. There were one or two times during the season that if it had not been for him, I may not have been able to finish out the season. He was awesome at basketball, soccer, and just about everything else he put his hands to. He always had the ability to make us laugh and see the best of almost every situation. I had an absolute blast going and doing the live fire training with him at Camp Pendleton, as he was acting as Engineer/Capt/IC.

I was watching CNN as the Esperanza fire progressed and grew that fateful morning. As I was watching it they broke in with "Breaking News." As I sat there and let it sink in, all I could do was hope it was no one I knew, and begin praying for the families of the deceased. When I finally leaned the names, I was in utter shock. Not only did I know one, I knew three of them. I could only imagine how the San Berdu was reeling with the shear impact of the loss, especially since it was on home turf.

When I arrived in San Bernardino for the weekend leading up to the memorial, I was totally amazed at the show of support, by the local agencies, as well as ones in towns and cities all over the state. It was made even more evident by the show of support by all the agencies, counties, cities, and districts of firefighters that were able to make it to the memorial. As the memorial service filled my heart swelled and I was truly amazed. I was once again proud to be part of the Green Machine, and the wild land firefighting organization. It felt good to see Forest Service employees being honored by firefighters of every agency, without regard to the color of truck driven.

Thank you all who could make it, and for the thoughts and prayers of those who could not.

What a wonderful ceremony on Sunday, the San Bernardino N.F. and support staff did a great job putting together such a memorable service. To all the folks that are assigned to the families of our or fallen brothers, my heart goes out to you all for the amazing job you are doing. It hit me really hard yesterday after seeing my friend and mentor, I could see and feel the pain he is going through after I hugged him, he look drained. BC-41 you are and always will be an inspiration to me, stay strong my friend because your real family and the family you work with are so proud of the work you are doing.

I hope and pray that all of the statements that the top brass of the Forest Service said comes true and they are not just blowing smoke. It is time for change for the agency, it is time to give us the credit of being Firefighters and start getting Firefighter wages. If they don't help us out then it's time to turn the heat way up. I call on the Region 5 Captains group to keep an eye on the top brass to see if they change there tune and start supporting all of the hard working men and women of this great agency. The Captains group has a strong voice and with the help of the FWFSA I know we can make a change for the good and the memory of our fallen brothers.

Vicki and Casey, you are amazing individuals. I can not put into words what I am feeling, all I can say is thank you for EVERYTHING you have done for all of the firefighters. Thank you for being there for the families of the fallen and all of the employee's on the San Bernardino N.F.

To the San Bernardino, I have been praying for you all and it made me feel good to see all you so united. Take care of the two remaining Firefighters from E-57 and godspeed to you all. Long live the memory of Engine 57 and all those who gave the ultimate sacrifice this fire season.

An-R5er

Ab,

On 11/3, someone said, "The reward money is going to help the people who lost their homes in the fire. This was stated during the press conference today in Riverside."

That post was in response to my thoughts that the reward money should be re-directed to the families of the fallen.

That greatly concerned me and so many others as I also saw it also described the same way by the press. Why give money to families to rebuild in the same areas again? The families that had their homes burned down will get FEMA support and insurance money to cover their losses.

Build in those areas again, and someday, firefighters are put at risk and extreme peril. The views are great, the scenery beautiful, the risks to firefighters to provide the serenity.... well known now.

Today, I saw a news release confirming that the reward money will not be given out, and was actually talking about some of the funds going to the families of the fallen firefighters..... that is where it needs to go.

Fallen Firefighters cannot be replaced as structures are. Morongo Reservation is to be thanked for directing their $100,000 portion of the reward money towards the families of the fallen and not replacing these structures.

I somehow think there is an awesome network that has formed and is working behind the scenes to "Always Remember" and "Never Forget" the losses of San Bernardino National Forest, San Jacinto Ranger District, Engine 57 and all of our losses over the many years.

SoCalCapt

Please keep in mind and heart that the funeral service for Daniel Hoover-Najera
is being held today and the one for Pablo Cerda is tomorrow.

Thanks for yesterday's great success. It's been mighty fine to have everyone
working through different ideas but basically pulling together.

Tahoe Terrie

Second dead firefighter's name released in Julian crash

JULIAN ---- The name of a second U.S. Forestry firefighter killed Saturday night in a car crash outside Julian has been released by the San Diego County medical examiner's office.

Daniel Duran, 29, of Calexico was a front-seat passenger in a 1990 BMW driven by Francesco D'Amico, 20, of Chula Vista, a medical examiner's investigator said today.

Authorities said both men died when the southbound car veered down an embankment on Boulder Creek Road and slammed into an oak tree.

Another passenger, Adrian Rios, 20, of Chula Vista suffered severe injuries, officials said.

If you would like to purchase a copy of the video the form and 800 number are at
https://system.netsuite.com.

-Cara

My question is there video available of the service anywhere?

Thanks,

JT

"So here's a song to dirt and sweat,
A grace to grit and grime;
A hail to workers who beget
The wonders of our time.
And as they gaze through gutter grit,
To palaces enskied,
Let them believe, by sweat and dirt,
They, too, are glorified.

-- Robert Service

Smokedawg

Godspeed to Engine 57 crew.

www.redding.com/redd/nw_local/article/0,2232,REDD_17533_5121896,00.html

DG

Well done, the Memorial was a deeply moving event. I witnessed my Forest Service family, and the rest of the Fire Service attendees, standing solemnly and reverently in honor of the Alandale crew, their friends and families. I got lump in my throat watching the Honor Guard and hearing the Pipes and Drums play "The Minstrel Boy" as they marched in.

Something struck me, something refreshing, a memento. I was taken back to a time in history when we openly and publicly looked to God for supplication. No political correctness, no beating around the bush. Thank you Chaplain Seltzner for your personal, heartfelt and humble prayer.

For the first time in a long time, I felt like I have my American identity back. Thank you so very much for asking God to be there, I am sure a lot of people were as deeply moved as I was. My pride in America and as a United States Forest Service Firefighter has once again been restored.
.....One nation, under.....you know the rest.

sting

noname

CB

My two soccer teams this last Saturday 11/4/06 dedicated their games to the fallen firefighters & their families. They played with as much determination and heart as they could. They even said a prayer for them. Yes, they both won and, yes, it brought tears to my eyes to see how hard they played and how much it meant to them. (My youngest team U-8, one of the little girls came up to me and asked: Coach Michelle do you think the firefighters were proud of us? and I said yes with the biggest smile and a quivering lip.)

All my kids make me so proud and they have the biggest hearts and care so deeply! They even painted their faces! This was so important to them. My youngest team said, Coach we have to have a plan, I said yes we do and that plan is to have fun and do the best you can and that will make the firefighters so proud.

I not sure if you can post these, but I told the kids I would see and let them know.

U-8 Yellow Lightening: Names: Bowdy, Bailie, Sequia, Kathryn, Alse, Zane, Winston, Hayden, Gus, Madison, Chance, & Coach: Michelle

U-12 Fast & Furious: Names: Ben, Preston, Natassha, Hannah, Megan, Angelian, Tyler, Miranda. Bottom from left to right: Tommy, Turtle, Joe, & Heather. Coach: Michelle

Thanks Michelle. Great idea. We will certainly let the families know. Tell the kids we're proud of them for doing their best and having fun!

Maybe some of your Soccer Kids and some of your Cub Scouts would even like to join in on the Eldorado hotshot walk. Check the link at the top of the page for details. Ab.

Thank you Mike and Norm. Your heartfelt words were moving. Mike your vegetation fire response, area 57, brought me to tears. Norm I appreciated the stories, not having known these men, you gave it a personal touch. Jeanne you also did a wonderful job as the master of ceremonies. The professionalism all of you from the San Bernardino showed, made me proud once again to have once been a U.S. Forest Service Firefighter.

To those that could not be there, I wish everyone could have experienced the pipes playing Amazing Grace while the Tankers, then the Helicopters flew over, the tears really started to pour. I haven't been able to put in words how I felt since I first heard that a crew was missing on 10/26 and then to find out the terrible news. I still cant, but others here have. In my own way I did what felt right, joining the 52 club, going to the hospital for Pablo, and now the memorial. My heart goes out to the families, may you know that this person will not forget the sacrifice your loved ones gave. The showing of support from the greater fire community was overwhelming, I also know that a good number of these department's personnel were once Green and proud. I know mine is full of former USFS Firefighters.

And lets not forget the remaining members of E-57 who until today their names were unknown to me. Kyle and Kyle my deepest sympathies go out to you, I cant even imagine how the two of you feel. If the fire service and more importantly the Forest Service is your calling stay with it. You will have a great support system to help you work through this.

To all those involved behind the scenes thank you, WFF thanks you for all you do, Abs thanks for giving us a place to be serious, laugh, cry, and get angry.

And if things could not get any worse lets not forget our brothers from the Cleveland and give them and their families the same amount of support.

From my family to the families of the fallen:

In Loving Memory of BDF E-57

Forester

Hello Ab. I am one of the people who submitted photos for Ken Perry's run in June. I took some again today at the Engine 57 Memorial Service. If you would like to use any of them on Wildlandfire.com, please feel free to do so.

Also, if you ever need a photographer in Southern California, please feel free to call on me. If I can be there, I will help.

Best regards,

Lee Anne
USFS Wife

Thanks again, Lee Anne. I posted them on Engine 57 Memorial Page. We'll keep your offer in mind. Ab.

Two People Killed After Hitting Tree In Cleveland National Forest
www.10news.com/news/10246206/detail.html

Firefighter, companion die in crash near Julian
www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20061105-1447-oakcrash.html

Ab has learned that 2 wildland firefighters (1 permanent Forest Service firefighter and 1 seasonal firefighter) are dead and a third is in critical condition following an off-duty accident last night in a private vehicle. This is very sad news. As soon as more information is released, I hope someone will provide the details. The WFF knows and has stepped in to see if the families have immediate needs. Ab.

A few more shots:

boot2.jpg
batgrl12.jpg
helmet-statue.jpg

Joe

Thanks so much Joe. Ah, the wonders of the internet! Ab.

AL

You're welcome, AL. Ab.

Mellie

http://cbs2.com/

MS

The memorial

gisgirl

Ten or 15 minutes until the feed should kick in. Ab.
www.nbc4.tv/index.html

Is there any update to the list of media that is covering the memorial service today?
I'm here on the East Coast wishing I could be there in person to pay my respects.
I already have the www.nbc4.tv/index.html link, are there any others? I am sure
there are many, many more that can't make it in person, but are there in spirit.

Thank you
Onelick

Hello my old friend. Haven't heard of any other.

Just got a call from the memorial site that at least a mile, maybe 2, of polished green FS engines are lined up to provide entrance to the families. The line is winding away as far as the eye can see. Shoulder to shoulder are the crews and FS personnel in uniform: hotshots, engine crews, other FS personnel. As limousines arrive with the families inside, those in the line salute. Also, there are many, many interagency engines - red and yellow and white and green - already parked in the parking area, with more arriving. Two structure engines have their towers extended in an inverted V and are supporting the biggest American flag anyone has ever seen.

Inside the amphitheater, the Honor Guard is practicing. The bagpipes wail out in practice, tears fall. There's a huge white banner with an image of a relaxed and used Whites firefighter boot, empty, with laces undone. "Always Remember" and the names of our fallen are written on the banner. Across the front of the stage, there's a table for each of the fallen with their photo, flowers, and a yellow hardhat with their name and Engine 57 on it. Also on each table is one of the wildland firefighter statues.

It's still hours until the service begins. The amphitheater is filling. The top of the amphitheater will have hotshot crew buggies parked in honor. Ab.

In particular I'd like to embarrass Marlene Rhynes. She's been my "go to" person for some arrangements connected with the memorial service today. I don't know what she does on the forest, but I've left her messages. She's left me one. Nice voice, doing her awesome piece to help out. Beyond the "call of duty". Thanks Marlene! (... and if your face is turning red, GOOD, you deserve it!)

Thanks also to the others like Marlene who are supporting, each in their own way. In many cases we'll never know what you helpers have contributed, but thanks for contributing. You're invaluable. You're what makes the Forest Service great.

Mellie

Yesterday was my 47th birthday, I think. I've lied about it so much I really don't know. I don't celebrate, I'm usually at work or sitting at home on the couch ignoring the phone and just doing nothing. Yesterday was different. I received a phone call from Jody or Crystal, (they sound so much alike on the phone) asking me to join them for brunch. I didn't want to get out of my pj's or leave the house and I really didn't want to tackle my afro which was wild as it ever was and I thought of every excuse in the book to get out of it, then they put Bonnie on the phone.

I don't remember everything that she said to me but I'll never forget this. She told me that as she walked through that Cordon of Honor she kept her head high and she was so proud of each and everyone of you, she told me to keep my head up, be proud and go on. I got off the couch still a little groggy from too much Cabo Wabo and not enough orange juice, and met them for brunch, of course I was late.

Jody met me at the door and led me to Grandma, Bonnie and Crystal who were sitting at a table with balloons and flowers just a cheezin'. Wow, during the worst time of theirs lives they thought of me. We ate and laughed and reflected on Jason's service and then it happened, those waitress' came over and started singing. I will never do that to anyone again, I was so embarrassed, but honored that they were so happy to be celebrating with me and they got me chocolate cake to boot!

Later on that evening I had to deliver things to the house. The families' assignment for the day was to chill out, get to bed early and to get ready for today but with the Reese/McKay families do you think that happened? Nope. I walked in and they were all there, they sang Happy Birthday and all I wanted to do was get out of there! Like I said, I ain't one for celebrations. I just wanted to pass on Bonnie's words of wisdom to you all and pass it on like wildfire,

Hold your heads high, be proud of who you are and what you do, but most of all go on.

They are truly an incredible family. To those of you who are still assigned or you didn't get chance to sign at the service, there is a guest book floating around the SO. It was on a table in the briefing room. If you get a chance please sign it. Bonnie would greatly appreciate it!

BATGRL12

After i wrote that little thing about the ESPERANZA incident,
my girlfriend was playing that song and it just sounded so
appropriate, for our brothers and sisters.

MM

It touches my heart to see the "Boot" out on every street corner, and donations coming from around the world, from some of us who have never met them, but will have touched our lives forever.

We went to Arrowhead Regional Hospital on October 30th, to see how Pablo was doing, we felt so much love and concern, not only from the Firefighters that were there, but from each and every visitor at that hospital, who were there to see their own family members. The nurses, the staff.....such a wonderful feeling to see so many caring hearts. That is how much this tragedy means to all of us.

We will be at the Memorial on Sunday, to pay our respects and to show our support to the families. And our hearts will be with them forever. We are all one big family.

Foresters Wife
USFS 91- 97, Angeles National Forest

noname

www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-loopfire4nov04,1,2965507,full.story

FC 180

The story will move into the archives tomorrow, I think, and free registration will be required to access it. If you want to read it later, you might copy and paste it somewhere. Ab.

The service yesterday for Jason was awesome. I'm sure he is very pleased about how it turned out. Also, Jason's family was so welcoming at their home. Thank you guys so much for making us feel welcomed! And thank you to the High Desert Agencies for lining the route with support! It was one of those times you felt butterflies in your stomach.

Let’s celebrate 5 awesome firefighters tomorrow!

Mosquito

I haven't gotten wind of such a plan yet. I think everyone is pretty busy tomorrow, but maybe the day after you could call someone on the BDF and ask. I could give you contact info. Ab.

Thank you for all your support through all of this. Yesterdays services where an amazing celebration of their lives and to know that they were men that would have changed our world. I was lucky enough to make a visit with my brothers and sisters from the San Jacinto Ranger Dist. I was able to make peace with what happened and have a better understanding of just how furious the fire was.

I took a few pics and have stitched them together to make a QuickTime VR. It is up to you if you want to post them or just send them to specific people. I do not want the media getting a hold of them. Once again thank you for everything.

Shrek

Thanks Shrek. Here are the first two. Readers, these are not for discussion at this point, only for viewing. Thanks, Ab.

End of Property
Down Canyon

Ken Perry will be flying in the fly over.

How lucky we all are to have each other.

I read recently from a wise old woman.... Life is short but it sure is wide....

Vicki Minor
P.S. Happy Birthday to Bette Ashe.

Happy birthday dear Bette, Happy birthday to you. And thanks for all. Ab.

Dave/ SHF ENG Capt.

Thanks Dave. Ab.

Thanks, I've given credit. Ab.

Know you all work to keep alive the memories of your fallen sisters and brothers. Something the Moms, the Dads, the significant others and wives and families will appreciate over the years is a note on their loved one's birthday. As the Mum of a lost child I know how I cherish these.

So very tragic and heartbreaking. Bless them and Bless you. The families may also need a great deal of support emotionally and, heaven forbid, but if a change of venue happens as they go through the criminal justice meat grinder. They may need lodging folks to care for their residence. They will need you but they may never ever ask for help, they are hurting to badly.

Respectfully a Mum

Thanks Mum, if we can help you, please let us know privately. Ab.

Fyrfghtr

Thanks. Ab.

Story of the Loop fire. You can read the long first page, but then have to
register. First page was good. I don't think it costs anything to register.

Todd

Thanks Rob, I have a feeling CNN and MSNBC will cover at least part of it, perhaps without much warning. It's too big a political event with lots of bigwigs - who will be "showing their support" - to be overlooked by the media. This is OK. The politics of it is not what it's about for all of us, however.

We will all be present to support San Jac BDF firefighters and our families first, as only we can. The rest is fluff, including one international eye-candy union (clearly not our CDF union) that is milking this as though they've supported wildland firefighters in the past. (yawn)

Readers, if anyone finds out for sure of other stations broadcasting this event, please let us know.

This Ab will not be on site, but present 100% in spirit when our Wildland Firefighter Foundation statues are presented to the families. How I would like to know who will be presenting, but they're keeping that hush-hush. Those statues are FROM US - from this community of interagency firefighters, vollies, and excellent private sector firefighters, and supporters - FROM US, provided by money we all raised with fundraisers like Ken's run, raffles, auctions or donated via our Wildland Firefighter Foundation's 52 Club or General Fund.

The statues are tangible evidence of our wildland firefighter community's love and respect for our fallen brothers and promise of support for their families.

In our statues being presented are our runners' fundraising steps; the strain of our fire crews' uphill strides, bump; the pulaski's cuts; the chainsaw's roar; the rappellers' descent; the smokejumpers' leap; the sweat and smell of our brows, pits, and feet; the long, hot smoke-filled days and nights... the elements of the wilderness, including fire.

We will not forget. Ab.

Good job leading us into the celebration of Jason's life.

Was it a bit round about? Many of us in the rigs following you began to wonder what the heck we were doin'? where we were goin'? one ranger even asked should we have brought food for the long-haul? We were on cell phones between vehicles, debating your intent. Best we could determine, you wanted us to shift gears, see all the people lining the roadway, get into the moment and transition into the celebration of Jason's life.

It worked.

Thanks, we'd follow you anywhere. Jason's family is awesome!

Eng Capt

THANK  YOU

DALE  BOSWORTH !!!

I heard through the grapevine (dont know the details yet) that you're
helping or have helped smooth the way with OWCP for KRS (our paralyzed hotshot) to manage
the OWCP process so he may get what he needs, simply to live.

Thanks also to anyone(s) behind the scenes who has facilitated that change!

Mellie

That was unbelievable, more than I'd ever expected. Bonnie thanked each and every one of you as we walked through the Cordon Of Honor.

I have to give a shout out to everyone behind the scene who made this possible. No matter how small your part was, thank you so much. A special thanks to my team, the production group, High Desert Church and Sunset Hills Memorial Park for taking in my vision and making it happen. To the City of Victorville, CHP, San Bernardino County Sheriffs Department, and Cal Trans thanks for making it possible for the procession to happen. I thank each and everyone of you for showing up. I hadn't been in a Victorville parade since Highschool and to have three CHP units leading me instead of chasing me, I could sure use that kind of escort the next time I need to go to the mall. Mercy Air, that flyover was incredible. The one thing that I didn't think about. Thank you for that Warren. Claudia Posey, thank you so much for introducing Brodyn to us. You were right, he does have a little bit of both Jess and Jason in him.

Someone asked me how long I thought it would take for things to get back to normal. This is the new normal for all of us and a new chapter in the lives of Bonnie and her family. They shall get through it and so will we.

If I forgot or forget to thank anyone I'm sorry. See you on Sunday.

BATGRL12

Click to read The Last Command (Author is Assistant Chief Kp, Boles Fire Protection District, Labadie, MO)

No Way! Do people really screw up your name? I blame it on my dyslexic keyboard, becaws I are a relly good spellur. With all that you do on our "porch", you're like gold. You too Mellie, you are a credit to your family and friends.

Yesterday, I rescued an elderly lady who'd blown a tire hitting a curb. She was going to have to leave the vehicle "abandoned" until her SSI check came in so that she could afford to fix it. Twenty bucks at a junkyard got a replacement tire and rim, which I put on for her. I still haven't met her, don't need to. Obviously, I wouldn't take any money for helping her out. I've always claimed that the deeds were "my penance" for having been such an a$$ as a kid. The kind of people that "we" are, I'd bet that most of us are doing the same thing every day.

I've decided to print up some "fundraising flyers" for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and leave them in my vehicle along with some pre-addressed envelopes. In the future, when people offer to pay me for stuff like that, I'll give them the envelopes and paperwork to make a donation "to a really meaningful cause" instead. You can go to www.wffoundation.org/documents/FirefightersLoveCookies2_001.doc (2464K doc) for the form.

Not bad, I wouldn't have taken the money anyway...

Stay safe! "Kicks"

Great idea. Ab.

>From the church, with the two aerial ladders holding up the American Flag in Victorville. To his Aunts house in Apple Valley. People stopped, got out of their cars with their hands held over their hearts. Veterans young and old standing at attention saluting. Local agency apparatus at intersections at attention. Apple Valley Police/Sheriff patrol cars lined up, lights on and saluting. Some people crying, some waving. Although a very sad occasion, it made me very proud and extremely moved by the public's outpouring respect for us as firefighters. Our prayers and thoughts are still with the families through these tough times and in our hearts forever. My hats off to all my sisters and brothers on the San Bernardino National Forest, for a "Job Well Done". We will get thru this, "As We Are One".

Signed, BDF Captain 19

There is no more RHC, it's IHC or not. Ab.

I am not a firefighter but my son is an engine operator on the LPF. I have been crying off and on since the news first broke of the tragedy and every time I read another heart wrenching post. Even though I did not know any of the firefighters they were still family to me. There are so many kind and loving people in the firefighter family and the extended firefighter family. Heather’s family and Danny’s mom who wrote to "They Said" to offer comfort when still recovering from their own tragic losses; and the two burned firefighters who traveled to be with the families; and all the courageous people who have been there with the families to offer whatever comfort they can and assist in any way possible and the Eldorado hotshots for their upcoming fundraiser. What wonderful, loving and thoughtful people, but that is the norm not the exception in the firefighter family/community.

It broke my heart to read about the ring for Jason’s girlfriend— it is such a blessing that Vicki took care of it and got his ring for her as it will surely be a treasured memory of their love. Thank God the WFF is not a government org. tied up in bureaucratic red tape— that Vicki can take care of immediate needs and get things done now not fill out forms in triplicate and wait months/years when the financial needs are now. Knowing how grossly underpaid USFS firefighters are I am sure the families live paycheck to paycheck as most of us do, and when hit by tragedy do not have the funds for funerals and all the myriad financial problems that occur. My son told me about Wildlandfire.com and Wildland Firefighters Foundation a month or so ago. What a caring, giving, insightful and strong woman Vicki Minor must be— she saw a tremendous need and she took action— she is a hero. I hate to think what our firefighters and families went through before the WFF existed. I will be joining the 52 club and buying a membership for my dear mother-in-law for Christmas to help support this much needed and appreciated organization.

Also it makes me heartsick and angry that there has to be a legal assistance fund for firefighters— our firefighters would never knowingly put another in jeopardy. There is not a structure in this world worth a human life let alone 5 lives. Weathermen/women whose training, educations and jobs are to forecast the weather don’t always get it right, so how can our firefighters be expected to predict the weather and wind when the weather professionals can’t?

The inhuman monster who started the fire is responsible for this tragedy. One criminal act devastated so many lives, destroyed so many hopes and dreams, left the families and loved ones with an emptiness that will never be filled and left innocent children without a father. I hope justice prevails.

Annette (a firefighters mom)

With all this working together on fire, on memorials, I'm sure people will express their appreciation with plaques or figures or pulaskis or gold shovels with thanks and names and forest names and unit identifiers.

I have an unusual name - nickname really - Mellie.

Used to be FIRE people frequently misspelled it or typo-ed it as Millie, like your mom's old Aunt Millie - short for Mildred or Millicent. (MoHicks, and Safetys and DIVS and R5 Chiefs, Hunters, and Dougs, but NEVER Misery Whip, he's perfect <snicker> and never, never OA!.)

Nowdays mis-spelling my name only happens occasionally... or maybe Ab always fixes it. Anyway, the first few times it happened, it kinda hurt my feelings, like they didn't care enough to get it right... but then I looked at who had made the mistake or typo and I know they really wouldn't have wanted to make me unhappy. And I changed my thinking. I am more tolerant of Millie, sometimes I can even think of it as an endearing form of Mellie... ?

OK, I'll confess, I've misspelled names too. I used to get confused with Vicki's name and spell it Vicky, ummmm and she's one of my best friends, ummmm and so did the FWFSA (Casey) last year when they awarded Vicki the first ever award she'd ever received. Luckily, he figured it out before the ceremony and had a new one made... and she LOVED it. (She may have the mis-spelled one too... maybe on her bathroom wall?)

San Ber-nar-di-no is another one that's often misspelled. I saw it without the r in a govt memo the other day about our fallen, one from the WO.... Misspelled twice. They didn't mean it.

I saw it posted later here. Ab corrected it! <snicker> before posting. And the unit identifier for San Bernardino National Forest is BDF. I used to get it mixed up (even worse are all those five S forest unit identifiers). I think I could pass the CA forest test now, but maybe not if I was stressed or tired on a fire assignment.

So my message is this:
If someone gives you a token of their appreciation and something's misspelled, your name or your forest or its unit identifier, etc, please look at the genuine appreciation or honor the giver is expressing and overlook the mis-spelling. (And know that when your heirs sell it on eBay, they will get loads more money for it because of the mis-spelling, like those stamps or dollar bills printed upside down or backwards. Makes it unique and gen-u-ine.)

And for those who are appreciating or honoring, thanks for the appreciation/honor (and please check your spelling).

Ab, time to take away my keyboard on a Friday night and sign me
Millie, the spelling Queen (At least no one's misspell my name Gertrude! <snicker>)

haw, haw: some firefighters are not so good at spelling. Something to help... CA Unit Identifiers and on the Links page under federal there are links to lists of all the other unit identifiers and to national forest names. Can't help with people names. Ab.

I just created a page on our website for the 52 Mile Walk. Can you replace
the link at the top of They Said from our homepage to the new page? Thanks
for pushing this for us on They Said. More info will be coming out
soon....
New Page: www.eldoradohotshots.org/52milewalk.html

-sandy

Done. Ab.

Thanks, Hunter, lots and lots going on behind the scenes, too. It's rewarding to make a contribution. Ab.

Please go to the www.eldoradohotshots.org/ to read about the 52 Mile Walk the Eldorado Hotshots are organizing. You can also jump down to read their explanatory post from yesterday.

Funeral services for Jess McLean and Jason McKay are being held today. If you're inclined, please hold them, their families and our fire community in your thoughts and hearts today. Ab.

Thanks Engine 32 and Dozer 3. Ab.

A bit more... this was what was shared in yesterday's FS info update:

Pablo Cerda was honored in a special manner following his passing on Tuesday. As his body was moved from the hospital an impromptu procession formed involving over 50 public safety vehicles. As the procession continued the interstate was closed and at EVERY overpass fire personnel saluted the passing of Pablo.

Fire Geek, thanks for sending this in earlier. I'm just having time to get to it now. Esperanza Fire ArcGlobe animation (a wmv or windows media player file) It's 1 minute. It provides quite a perspective and reminds me that Esperanza is Spanish for "hope". Ab.

The news of the arrest came while I was outside reading Smoke Jumpers One to Ten to the kids and chasing Triple Z around the yard, the adults were working on the OWCP paperwork. Jody ran out to get me as they wanted to share another special moment with me. The tears were flowing and they were so quiet but of course I changed all of that. Triple Z and I started dancing and singing (well I was) at the top of our lungs Celebrate by Kool and the Gang. Pretty soon I had them all singing, dancing and high fiving around the house.

The family would like to thank everyone who, no matter how small their part may have been, for finding that creep (my words) before he caused harm to someone else.

BDF - Thanks for that fabulous showing of support at the visitation last night. Bonnie had the family leave so that you all could have time there with Jason by yourselves. She is one incredible woman. If you are wondering why I was out running around and wiping noses outside instead of by Bonnie's side last night, I had to give the adults time alone without having to worry about their children disturbing others. I can't believe that they trusted me with them after being with me for all this time, but they did. With all of the running around we did, (I was always "IT") the pack test isn't nothing but a walk in the park!

Today will be a long day for us.

I had to pick the girls up at 0330 this morning for an interview with the Today show, I didn't wear my pj's this time. I hope that what we set up for Jason and his family last night did him justice and gave you all a vision of the life and times of Jason Robert McKay. Thank you production group for flying - yes I said flying - the photos to Apple Valley for the display.

Today should be fabulous. I thank everyone who has assisted me in putting this together. I am getting my documentation together and I will turn it in proudly, for right now I feel like I am on top of the world.

I got a peek at Staci's ring, it is beautiful. Jason's family has trusted me to give Staci a letter that Jason had written to Staci but for whatever reason he never gave it to her.

Paul and Rob, thank you so much for the rock. I had it in my "purse" along with the letter and I shared it with the girls this morning. I will carry that rock in my "purse" everyday, today I will take it out before I go on stage, I'd hate for it to fall out or start to slip while I'm trying to get through the Bell ceremony, but know that I will treasure it forever.

Please note that today is not only to honor Jason but to honor you too. Again to those who are working with me thanks again for all of your support. Krystel, Veronica, Bruce and Eddie my prayers and thoughts are with you. Before I forget, the Memorial Folder's front cover was an actual photo project that Jason did and many thanks to Cal Trans for not closing the freeway today.

Coyote
BATGRL12

Our best wishes for the day. Thanks for sharing. We'll be there in spirit. Ab.

Hard to post
I think this song is really cool
to all the brothers

MM

4 minute song - it's a wmv file, very LARGE, requires windows media player or another media player- We will leave this up today and then remove it. (you need high speed internet for this large file) I don't know if this constitutes fair use. Buy the CD. I am. It is pretty amazing in this context. Brought some healing tears to my eyes. Made me think of chat last Thursday night after hearing the news. There were many of us (35 highest number - I had to be anonymous); we weren't talking about meaningful things, necessarily, most of us were not talking too much... we were each at our own keyboard, me with my beer. It was a safe place for personal tears, lots of us virtually together, sharing our humanity and feelings of those lost. We will not forget. Ab.

Awesome.. so awesome.

www.engine57memorial.org/thecrew.html

Ken

Sorry for venting on others Ab. The arson investigators really did an awesome job. I am in so much pain over these deaths.

CC

CC, there's not much I can say -but hang in there. In hindsight it always seems things should have gone faster or something should have been done differently to change the outcome. Our friends are dead. It is what it is, not just a bad dream.

CC, thanks for your kudos to the arson investigators. They deserve our kudos and high fives. Thanks CDF and FS. Thanks for the backup FBI and ATF. Ab.

SoCal Groundpounder

Thanks for attention to perceptions in naming. Ab.

Just for update, the planned freeway closure near Devore Pavilion for this weekend has been canceled in respect for the Memorial......Thank you Caltrans.

www.dot.ca.gov/dist8/projects/san_bernardino/devore2/index.htm

BDF Brothers and Sisters,.... Love, thoughts, and prayers to you all! miss you! See you Sunday.

God speed 57...

Gar1233

Thanks for the link. A number of people expressed concern about that. Chuck on the IIMT assured me that they were working with Cal Trans to work that out. Ab.

Hey Sandy, and Eldo IHC,
I have copied and pasted the e-mail you sent out on
the site to all major news outlets in the Sacto
area... hopefully they will respond.

SC

SoCal Capt asked:

The paper is saying that the arsonist was initially apprehended
during a routine traffic stop. If so, nobody would be able to
claim the reward money?

I wonder if everyone who was contributing reward money
would then consider donating it to the families?

The reward money is going to help the people who lost their homes in the
fire. This was stated during the press conference today in Riverside.

Signed - No one special

I think it would be wonderful if the reward money was donated to the Wildland Firefighters Foundation. How wonderful it would be to know that it wouldn't be a struggle from summer to summer for Vicki to help out the families when it is needed most. This year had to be a HUGE drain on their finances with all the fatalities and injuries that occurred and I know it would give Vicki a peace of mind to know that she would never have to tell a family "I'm sorry that we can't help you out. We just don't have the funds."

I thought about going down south for the memorial service, but quite frankly, I have found myself overwhelmed by this whole thing. Please know that my thoughts and prayers will be with all of you down there.

Lori

So don't think that the burnover and the lessons we learn will be secondary, but right now we need to be concerned with our fellow firefighters that are going to be put through an investigation. We don't need them to be railroaded by an unfair process.

DS

"It is our experience that the actions or inactions of those employees directly involved in such fires are scrutinized with a magnifying glass and with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, notwithstanding that fire management decisions are often made in a compressed time frame and only with the information then available. Applying that level of scrutiny to the inexactness of the 10 Standing Firefighting Orders and the discretionary nature of mitigating the 18 Watchout Situations in a political environment that demands accountability, it is hard for us to imagine that anyone directly involved in a burnover or entrapment fatality will not face some allegation of negligence or wrongdoing."

The fact of what happened to Engine 57 is that they got burned over and they all died. This was the result of an arson fire. Those are the facts.

While those around the accident site have every right to "cover their rumps", there is no doubt in my mind that they too want to know... and learn from, the dynamics that caused the crew to be burned over.

As wildland firefighters know, you can plug as many what-if scenarios you want and as many standing orders as you can into any fire assignment. The bottom line is you are dealing with a force that in many instances, even the seasoned experts can't predict. You can do your best, given the circumstances at the time. You can even plan for a number of eventualities. But let's face it...S*%# is gonna happen in a blink of an eye and no number of years of firefighting, no number of standing orders etc., etc., is going to save you.

There should be no need for any firefighter to have to secure, let alone pay for liability insurance. The greatest peace of mind would be to know that your Agency is going to back you 100%... OK, better get the insurance!

The questions you posed about safety practices, having a plan and did we do our best are certainly valid. But do they have to be asked and the answers scrutinized while firefighters are still grieving for the loss of their friends and co-workers? While they are still in shock? I personally think not. For crying out loud, why couldn't the Forest Service allow the dead to be buried, memorialized and remembered before sending in the assault team?

The goal of the investigations should be to learn from the incident, not place blame. Sadly, perhaps I am a realist and can't envision a world in which everyone comes home alive each time. You know that firefighting is an inherently dangerous profession. In my opinion, wildland firefighting is the most dynamic, unpredictable and scary firefighting I've ever done. We can learn a thousand lessons from each fire, but if Mother Nature wants to, she can change any predictable behavior in a split second and quite candidly, there won't be time to flip through the "lessons learned" handbook.

If you go to work in this profession and do the best you can given the circumstances presented to you, then your employer ought to back you up 100%. There should be no need for liability insurance.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

The paper is saying that the arsonist was initially apprehended
during a routine traffic stop. If so, nobody would be able to
claim the reward money?

I wonder if everyone who was contributing reward money
would then consider donating it to the families?

SoCal Capt

Nerd on the Fireline

Nerd on the Fireline

I wanted to share a little love story with you all…
Jason who we lost last week left behind a wonderful sweet girlfriend named Staci.
I met her on Tuesday, she showed me a quilt she had made for him and a scrapbook full of pictures.
As I looked thought the album, I could see the love in Jason's eyes for his sweet Staci.
I think those two packed more in the time they were together than most of us do in a life time.
Jason had picked out a beautiful engagement ring for Staci and was paying on it.
This evening Staci's dad will be giving her Jason's ring... tied to a rose.

I believe that is the best money the 52 CLUB has ever spent…

Vicki Minor

Jason would have loved this. We will not forget. Thanks, Vicki. Ab.

Travel expenses are authorized for selected employees, determined by the Regional Forester, to attend the memorial services. All expenses shall be in accordance with the Federal Travel Regulations and all travel claims shall be kept in official files. Travel shall be financed with the same program funds used for each respective employee’s salary. Use of government-owned vehicles shall be maximized.

If you have questions or need more assistance, contact Doug Shjeflo for WO Human Capital Management matters, (703) 605-0881 or dshjeflo@fs.fed.us; or Gail McCrary for Financial Policy and Analysis matters, (703) 764-9117 or gmccrary@fs.fed.us.

/s/ Dale N. Bosworth
DALE N. BOSWORTH
Chief

Thanks K. We do have many goodies in our archives. Readers, this page has excellent points. Thanks Mellie for the page way back when. Ab.

I am an Engine Captain and An Air Support Group Supervisor on a Southern California IMT Team, I just wanted to say that this web site is such a great forum to visit and hear what fire folks have to say and their thoughts, I have been crying a lot inside for what has happened this year with losing lots of friends 2 on Helitanker 790 in Happy Camp N.Cal , 2 on Air Attack 410, I knew Rob Stone and had worked with him recently and a SEAT Managers Daughter Monica on the A-star in Idaho that I worked with at times and now the Esparanza Fire that took 5 more, I have attended Training Classes with Mike,...

There was an Incident debrief today that I could not attend because it has been burning me inside and I don’t feel that some person at this time can make it better Especially with some of the folks the federal government hires Re: POSH Training.

This Site of yours has made me feel somewhat relief by hearing what other folks are feeling and don’t feel so alone, THanks So Much for this site, It means ALOT .....

RN, Engine Capt <snip identifying info>

News coming out of the press conference is that Raymond Lee Oyler of Beaumont has been arrested and charged with 5 counts of first degree murder, 2 with special circumstances (murders committed during arson and multiple murders). He's also charged with 11 counts of arson (including 2 in the Banning Area) and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device in commission of the arsons.

If found guilty, the DA says Oyler can face a sentence of life without parole or the death penalty. Whether the death penalty will be sought will be determined by the DA within 60 days. Included in this decision will be consideration of the deaths of the 5 firefighters and the impact of their deaths on family, friends, loved ones and children.

The CDF Riverside spokesman thanked everyone from state and fed fire investigators to FBI, ATF for the interagency effort. They've been working on this 24-7 most of the summer. He said he was proud of the fire investigators and wanted to thank elected officials who backed them up with the development of the reward.

The San Bernardino Forest Supervisor thanked everyone, said good fact-finding led to the arrest and she expected justice would be served. She said that it's been a difficult time for the FS and for families of the firefighters, that an extensive amount of work has gone into this and that many have been affected. She thinks that this will help bring the closure and the healing needed.

The ATF spokesman offered condolences for the loss of the firefighters and said it was an honor for ATF to play a small part.

Photos of the 5 fallen firefighters were shown at several different times. Their names were spoken.

They will not be forgotten.

Ab.

Thanks to others who are bombarding us with the same message. Ab.

People should watch the live Forest Service/Riverside news coverage that
will be carried on CNN, MSNBC and Fox at 1100 hours.

Just called my wife to tape it. Hopefully it will end up on national news tonight.

Todd

Thanks for that. Good contractors are policing the language issue within their own ranks; this issue has been corrected by the company. Ab.

Readers, there is no implied slam against any agency in this post. Firefighters are seeking information that will allow legal defense fund lawyers to protect non-CDF and non-liability-insured firefighters from potentially being sucked into a legal vortex in which their constitutional rights are violated. At the same time, fed socal firefighters are concerned that their CDF brothers/sisters and the CDF Union are naive to their own legal risks. Please step above agency and share any info you have. Messages can be copied and pasted and passed behind the scenes and anonymity will be insured.

Secondly, the Eldorado HOTSHOTs - who chose to make a personally painful journey to Southzone in an effort to offer support to folks - should be acknowledged. Kudos! and thank you.

Lastly, and I hate to say this to all Fed FFs, I have this overwhelming urge to YELL: BUY INSURANCE to protect yourselves from liability repercussions should the need arrive.

River

KL

A union leader recommended Tuesday that California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection firefighters not participate in an ongoing federal investigation of the fatal Esperanza wildfire being conducted by the USDA's Office of Inspector General, or OIG.

Ken Hale, state rank and file director for CDF Firefighters, called on firefighters to "cooperate in every way possible" with a joint investigation also under way by CDF and the U.S. Forest Service. But until "ground rules" are set with OIG, Hale said he is urging CDF firefighters to not answer the agency's questions or otherwise "interact with" the agency's investigation.

"My main concern is, these are CDF employees I'm talking about," Hale said. "They have specific rights in the state of California. I don't know whether OIG would abrogate those rights." (Go to the site for the rest.)

I think the reporter saw that posted here first and followed up. Good enough. Ab.

Thanks for everyone's good work on this. Ab.

As most of you know, there's going to be a public memorial for Engine 57 this Sunday at the Glen Helen Regional Park; Hyundai Pavilion in Devore. pdf file announcement (small pdf)

Here are a couple of places to watch for developing information on the upcoming memorial. Planners are working on a system to get feedback and, I believe, a "request to participate form" that can be managed on the web.

This site is propagating over the internet now. It comes up on my screen, but may not come up on yours. It will have more information in it soon. The CIIMT1 is working as hard as it can to get this organized.
www.engine57memorial.org/

Esperanza Incident on Inciweb with information on the Memorial Service on Sunday, including maps:
www.inciweb.org/incident/525/

San Bernardino National Forest Website
www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/

People have commented on road construction that might create traffic problems. The planners have been working with CalTrans.

Many thanks for taking lead on that Casey.

Many, many thanks to those writing in or calling to contact Mellie and others. Our network is becoming stronger. More knowledgeable folks means the effort gets spread around. We have fine resources among family members of fire folks, people in the 180 club and retirees, both fire and non-fire.

Readers, please send in some money for legal assistance to our socal firefighters. I am. Let's cover our guys now, and figure out this crazy system, so we know how all can be be protected in the future. Maybe we can bootstrap ourselves into that learning organization we want to be in spite of bureaucratic blocks.

Ab.

I don't know if your firefighters know about The Impact Fund.
This is one resource you should look into: www.impactfund.org.
They have lawyers who work pro bono and people who know
how to deal with all kinds of bureaucratic processes like OWCP.

The phone number for general information at the Impact Fund is
510-845-3473, ext 301.

NoNameGiven, but a member of the extended fire family community. Ab.

with deepest respects,

Timothy J. Davis, USFS, Engine Captain

Ab Note: One of the comments in the message string:
Please remind your folks that its important to partner up on tasks, especially in remote areas.

24 and 72 Hour Reports on the Miami (Sierra NF) Lookout Fatality

Sorry for the loss. Condolences to his partner and other loved ones. Ab.

He's concerned about all the supporters on this incident. His advice to me and others: You need to make yourself take a break from it. You need to reduce the hypervigilance. He suggested everyone make time for a walk, best where you can feel the breeze, the sun (or rain) on your face, the earth under your feet. Focus on the feelings of the elements; for as long as possible, let the rest blow away.

Gordon, I forgot it was the Loop Fire Anniversary until after we hung up. I will think of you walking while I'm walking, letting it all blow away at least for a time.

Thank you.
Mellie

The Loop fire occurred 40 years ago today, killing 12 El Cariso Hotshots. A sudden wind shift ignited a spot fire below where they were working, fire raced about 1/3 mi in less than a minute. Ab.

Did NTSB report what they think happened with the
Erickson Aircrane crash on the Day fire beginning of oct?

AL

Here: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20061006X01477&key=1

NTSB Probable Cause

Bob

Thanks to the San Bernardino NF firefighters that hiked in to find the
wreckage. Remember everyone, these traumas you experience when
helping others add up. Take care of yourselves.

Man Faces 2 Arson Counts in California
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4302439.html

Ab, please add: Don't know if this is the guy...

See you Friday.

BATGRL12

Dave

DW