Ab.

Is this the doc you spoke of??

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/30mile_report_errata.pdf (pdf file)

yactak

I've been reading with interest what many of you are offering as insights into what is happening to Ellreese and thank all of you who are offering your support.

I just read the letter from Casey Judd, faxed to the Yakima Herald, and thank him for taking action. However, I was a line officer with a red card until I retired in January 2004. I have remained active in wildland fire as an AD employee since my retirement. Prior to that I had the privilege of being the line officer for the unit on which Ellreese worked. Several of the other line officers on that forest were also red card carrying people.

I cannot begin to say how deeply affected I am by what is happening to a totally innocent human being. I worked with Ellreese for 9 years and can't begin to believe he would ever place anyone in jeopardy nor would he lie.

Having said that, for my part I am contacting people who have the positions and ability to take an active role in looking further into this sad incident. As many of you have stated, if a person has not faced a large conflagration they cannot begin to appreciate the awesome power Mother Nature can throw at us in a very short period of time.

We need to do all we can to prevent this from going any further. I am really fearful we cannot get this stopped before it goes to the next step, but we must do everything we can to make sure justice does in fact prevail and Ellreese is honestly absolved from any wrong doing. He also deserves a very sincere apology from all those involved in this horrendous injustice.

If at all possible, I encourage every one to avoid being anonymous and become very active in the defense for Ellreese Daniels. He deserves it and so do all of the rest of us who continually put our families in jeopardy every time we respond to the call for action.

George Pozzuto

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

<FWFSA Logo>

FEDERAL WILDLAND FIRE SERVICE ASSOCIATION
P.O. BOX 515   INKOM, IDAHO 83245   (208) 775-4577

December 31, 2006

To the Editors
Yakima Herald Republic
P.O. Box 9668
Yakima, WA 98909

Dear Editorial Staff:

I had hoped to spend some quality time with my family this New Year’s Eve but unfortunately, ignorance reigns supreme within the confines of your editorial on the Thirtymile charges.

Isn’t it great to have the power and authority of an editorial column to illustrate such irresponsible ignorance to your readers? Perhaps if you or those who collectively wrote this hit piece had any semblance of wildland firefighting expertise & experience, your commentary would be a bit different.

Let’s cut to the facts shall we. The majority of the wildland firefighting community is concerned with this “politically aspired” (can we say federal judgeship for the U.S. Attorney) persecution because, oddly enough, we do have the expertise & experience in dealing with, this may come as a shock to you…a dangerous occupation.

Suffice it to say, it won’t matter how many are prosecuted or how many “lessons learned” to be published, wildland firefighters will continue to die in the line of duty. That is a fact and the nature of the beast.

Your collective assessment of professions with accountability is absurd. There are of course plenty of dangerous jobs. However nowhere in this world, even in the structural firefighting environment, are elements and environments as dynamic and unpredictable as wildland firefighting.

To equate soldiers raping people, truck drivers, farm & dairy workers to fighting a nemesis that produces its own weather; can devour 1000 acres in an hour; blow flames horizontally across a six lane freeway at 100 mph and more often than not requires split second decision-making is unconscionable and irresponsible. As is so often suggested, if you haven’t filled the shoes, then you know absolutely nothing.

Case in point is the prosecution based upon the affidavit of a “postal inspector” turned “wildland fire investigator” who, as I understand, has not a day of practical wildland firefighting experience yet apparently has the authority to second-guess and use the proverbial 20/20 hindsight to attempt to take someone’s liberties away from them.

Moreover, while your editorial speaks of justice, explain the “justice” in the OIG’s office violating PL 107-203 by relying so heavily on the Forest Service investigation. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize that the investigator, Mr. Parker, had no expertise or experience in this field and had to rely on the Forest Service investigation…again, a violation of the law.

Now let’s talk about the law. After the investigatory debacle in the Cramer Fire, I personally contacted staff in both Cantwell’s & Hastings’s office, among others to inform them of the “unintended consequences of the law.” No one, inclusive of the two offices who introduced the legislation, intended, anticipated or expected criminal prosecution. In fact, all the law says is:

“…the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

As soon as possible after completing an investigation under section 1, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall submit to Congress and the Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the results of the investigation.”

There is no guidance from Congress to DOJ or the USDA OIG’s office with respect to how to conduct the investigations. As a result, both agencies have subjectively interpreted their authority under the law with respect to bringing charges against Mr. Daniels.

Still further, why is the language of the law limited to fatalities to an officer or employee of the Forest Service only? There are four other federal land-management agencies. Why are they not encumbered by this legislation?

Heck, since we’re all for accountability, since you feel that professional firefighters should feel the fear of prosecution for going to work and doing their best each day, why not use your “editorial advantage” and call on the State of Washington and every community in your state to pass a law for state & municipal firefighters. I dare say you’d be run out of town.

Since we’re looking for accountability, why not charge President Bush with manslaughter for the deaths of our soldiers in Iraq? How about the squad boss in Iraq who orders his crew down a road only to have a roadside bomb explode and kill his team? How about the mayor of New Orleans for the deaths of his residents?

Sirs, wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. People will continue to die regardless of how much “pain” is relieved from prosecuting someone. No firefighter in this country goes to work on any given day with the intent of killing or maiming their co-workers.

We will continue to learn from each fatal fire…but there will always be more. And let’s not be so ignorant as to think this isn’t an organizational problem. The management of the Forest Service fire program is performed by those with little, if any practical fire experience. From Mark Rey, Deputy Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources & the Environment, the “puppeteer” if you will, has no red card. Try finding a line officer who does.

By the way, have you seen Mr. Parker’s red card? Didn’t think so.

Very few of us were there at the scene and we are all entitled to our opinions. However, the public would expect some semblance of experience or expertise from the press when it talks about something as serious as this. Yet you have none.

Perhaps when the season starts up next year, you, the US Attorney & Mr. Parker might want to spend a couple of weeks cutting line, dodging snags, enduring blowups etc. Heck, maybe we’ll even let you make some command decisions since you know it all!!

As a nationwide organization comprised mostly of federal wildland firefighters, we have nothing but admiration & respect for those that lost loved ones on Thirtymile. But there are many, many others who have lost loved ones on Storm King, Cramer, Esperanza and many others that despise the prosecution of Mr. Daniels.

Maybe Mr. Weaver could take some comfort and solace in talking to those families that have found other ways to deal with their grief & tragedy.

Mr. Editor, you expect accountability & responsibility in an extremely dangerous and dynamic occupation as wildland firefighting. Shouldn’t the public be able to expect the same thing from you?

Respectfully Submitted,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Links to 30 Mile Report.

This man is already being raked over the coals.

JD,

I understand your cynicism. The Cramer Report was a piece of work... and lots of it white...
The 30mile report lacks discussion of human factors, but I think it pretty well reflects what the people who were interviewed said happened.

I do know that when the report came out a number of people told me FS Chief Bosworth made the 30mi investigators re-write the wording in the final Report from "the order was given" (Ellreese told firefighters to come down off the scree) to "the order was given but may not have been heard".

I know someone posted that on theysaid back in 2001 or 2002, but I can't find the post now.

Mellie

I choose to offer my support to Ellreese first and will hold any judgment until I hear the TRUTH myself. I know you and others are really big on these reports, and you can learn something from them, just as you can learn something from any other work of fiction. They make for a good read, but usually miss the mark significantly. Portraying these reports as absolute truth isn't doing those that died any justice.

I am not saying you can't have opinion because you've never worked for any of the agencies, have a ton of experience, or qualified to certain levels. What I am saying is that we do this day in and day out 365 days a year and we deserve and should expect a little support and when things go wrong. There are 1000's of decisions made at this level and weighing each and every decision against 50 + points, rules, and regulations is just not practical. Sometimes you have to rely on the common sense of your firefighters, their squadies, supts, and so forth, and sometimes you are wrong. Even if you do everything right things can go strangely awry. Lobotomy and I probably look at things through a different lens because we do this everyday of the year. I don't think spending a few hours on a volunteer agreement with the FS is going to give you the perspective that we have.

Telling our young firefighters that you can eliminate your risk by following these rules to the T, is just not true and may actually be dangerous in itself. I think it is a very narrow perception that the rules will set you free. We will never eliminate the risk of firefighting.

The only truths in this job are:

1. People are human, humans make mistakes.
2. Fire is and will continue to be dangerous.
3. You may very well die from someone's mistake, your own mistake, or some random piece of sh*t rolling down the hill or falling from the sky.
4. Most Parkies are vegetarian

JD

I have only done fire seasonally a little bit, and make no claims at knowing people specifically involved in this, knowing any more than what the report says, knowing what I would have done in this situation, and so on. As a very interested observer I can only say what strikes me when I read the entrapment situation, the counts against Mr. Daniels, and the responses on this board.

It seems to me that many things are going on here at once. There seems to be a sort of green and yellow wall you might call it, of firefighters trying to keep their own from being prosecuted. I understand that malicious, overzealous prosecution is wrong, but I also know that holding some people above the law is wrong. The law enforcement community faces this kind of thing all the time, and it doesn't seem to me to be all that bad if someone who was totally negligent in the way they dealt with a situation is held accountable for it. One cannot possibly argue that Mr. Daniels didn't know that firefighting was dangerous, or that as a crewboss he would be responsible for the well being of other people, perhaps people with very minimal experience.

If it is true, as some have said, that it was not obvious to the firefighters involved that the danger they were in was great (as their actions somewhat showed -- snapping pictures and so on), then it is hard for me to imagine this man will be raked over the coals for not knowing what the fire would do. However, it seems like there was a series of events that took place, all of them mistakes, that led a group of people into a situation that was fatal.

Fire is not an evil force of the devil acting against us in unknown ways. That we don't always have the proper information about weather, wind, etc, means that there are questions always in our minds about what will happen next. This is exactly why we have 10 standard orders, 18 watchouts, LCES, rules, regulations, things to keep in mind -- this is our job, it is risking our lives. These orders are not meaningless -- they might as well be law to us! To see any fire accident as simply a tragedy with no responsibility anywhere means that we are dishonoring all the people who have died in the past. If the actions of a firefighter are negligent to the point of being criminal, a criminal investigation is called for.

I am by no means for a harsh sentence for Mr. Daniels -- I hope that the trial shows that he acted, to the best of his knowledge, in good faith, but miscalculated the amount of danger he was in, probably for a number of reasons. But a criminal trial does not mean a conviction, and if this is a way to get out the truth, or prosecute someone who should have known better, then I say let it continue. Maybe if "fire professionals" are actually held accountable for what they do (like people in almost every other profession), a fire engine, or hotshot crew, or a bunch of 18-year-olds in a summer job before going to college won't be burned to death next year, or in five years.

CA Seasonal

aerial photo of Thirtymile fatality site
more photos: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/30mi/30mi.htm

You said:

but to presume no culpability because he's one of us (as many of the posts seem to project) is also wrong.

There are a number of reasons that the majority of wildland firefighter posters and readers here know Ellreese is not guilty of manslaughter and should not be brought up on charges. He is not culpable - that is, not worthy of the kind of blame he's charged with. He is a person who made choices in combination with others making choices under stress.

Those bringing charges in Spokane and the FS "leaders" allowing the charges to be brought are acting from their own agendas. As time goes on, no doubt some of the nittygritty of the scape-goating will be revealed unless the "powers that be" find a way for all to save face. This action against Ellreese should not have gotten as far as it has. As a number have said, it's likely to get very ugly.

My question to you: Have you read ALL of the 30mile Report carefully? You should.

Ab.

Links to 30 Mile Report.

Let's see how the day goes. We are busy. Maybe someone out there already has compiled a list of contact info. Ab.

At the same time, I believe that there is line beyond which an IC should be held responsible. I've come under fire for saying that here before, but I think that's where vfd cap'n is trying to go. You're right, all of you, in saying that fire culture is structured such that people who are incompetent, inclined to lapses of judgment, arrogant or uncaring don't tend to get very far. But we've all dealt with the guy who got promoted beyond his capability, the political appointee, or the guy who got in over his head in a rapidly evolving incident, and who is just trying to keep the lid on until the cavalry arrives. Those people should probably not be criminally liable, unless they willfully ignore their own shortcomings and allow the situation to spiral to the point of gross negligence, via unreasonable distraction or arrogance.

I do believe that there are circumstances in which an IC can behave indefensibly. I'm not sure that any of the recent cases qualify, but I think sticking our collective heads in the sand and thinking that there is something wonderful and special about fire training or the fire community that prevents the arrogant, the stupid, and the high-functioning sociopath from reaching the upper echelons of command is leaving ourselves open to the day when someone slips through the cracks.

I foresee that someday someone will reach a position of responsibility, and, through arrogance, megalomania, or undue pressure of politics or circumstances on an otherwise good, decent, human being, that person will do something indefensible. And this thinking, this idea of protecting our own, will place us in a position of knowing, with all the facts in hand, that this person should be punished, that this person has blood on his or her hands, and there will be no mechanism for justice because we as a community thought such a thing was impossible.

Tahoe Terrie is completely right; innocent until proven guilty. But I wonder if we aren't seeing like a golden age for the fire community. Most folks would agree that we've come a long way, in terms of safety, organization and responsibility; the fire community is, in my experience, cohesive, motivated, and selfless. The best move to positions of command; the incompetent are recognized and quit or are washed out. But what happens as the WUI problem escalates, as contracting becomes more widespread and more lucrative, attracting less scrupulous operators, as political pressure increases, and increasing liability exposure forces good people out? What if a mandate comes down from on high that we need to double the wildland fire workforce next season, or double the number of Type I teams, to meet some federally mandated goal? Do you think the current standards of training, of personal and moral investment in what we do will survive? What if the average annual income for a wildland firefighter doubles or triples? How would the fire world change with an influx of people "just doing it for the money"? Do we really want to make it impossible for an IC to be prosecuted, even for gross negligence or willful endangerment? Maybe it hasn't happened yet, but do we want to bet it will never happen?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope it never happens. Maybe most of the scenarios I propose are impossible.

This post is longer and sadder than I had intended. I hope that all ICs are capable and ethical and moral. I hope that about all cops and all politicians too, but look how well history supports that cheerful delusion. Politicians and cops are just a larger sample size, that's all, with more tangible power.

Sadly, Nerd on the Fireline

Fight forest fires by picking up water and dropping it over the fire.
www.funnygas.com/content.php?iid=1044

JS

Big Smooth, thanks for sharing your wisdom. Give our best to the rest of the family. Ab.

Fire raises burning questions: Crowd demands answers about Derby blaze
www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/12/20/news/state/20-derby_z.txt

CAFFS units that effectively foam and remain mobile could be the answer....

Q

Wood Pussy = Skunk
Quill Pig = Porcupine
Skate, refers to someone who can never be found.

Old School CDF

I added 'em to the list. Ab.

"Brownie, you're doing a helluva job!" President Dubya

"Saddam has WMD's; it's a slam dunk!" Former CIA Director George Tenet (later named Medal of freedom awardee)

Pretty much the same quote: Sec of State/retired General Colin Powell, before the United Nations.

"Mission Accomplished" - Dubya again.

"..... one of the lies told by Ellreese."

After 60+ years on this earth, 30+ as a USFS employee, and with 20+ entrapment investigations across the US under my belt, I'm more convinced that I can't tell the truth (or lies) when I hear them/read them/see them.

"I am not a crook!" Richard M. Nixon, resigned President of the US.

Dick Mangan

Ab Note in an attempt at political balance: The list wouldn't be rounded without the following:

(I did not have <snip><snip> with that woman! Bill Clinton)

Leadership training came out of 30mile. Good thing. Not
all people are born or natural leaders.

Todd

"I also think there is culpability for leading firefighters into a box canyon
during a period of extreme fire behavior and doing nothing to prepare them
for burnover for 30 minutes after entrapment."

30 minutes, a couple chainsaws, and a few fusses can do a lot to improve a deployment
zone. hindsight is 20/20, but maybe we should start teaching firefighters how to improve
and burnout safety zones and deployment zones before the head fire gets there.

dragmccloud

Why did the young woman on the crew follow Elreese's order to
come down off the rocks and onto the road if he didn't issue it?

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I know the way the system is set up: you end up paying as though
you were guilty, until you can afford to defend yourself.

Tahoe Terrie

Noname

Several other people have told me they sent in a similar request and have gotten the same reply. Ab.

AB

The recent charges against E.D have failed to address the problems.

First, there were nine folks "disciplined" by R-6 and only one is on the chopping block;
The lack of leadership on that forest at that time should be up on the defendant stand for
violating known policy too.

Secondly we all need to develop a strategy to delist or change the bill Cantwell and
Hastings sponsored; all this does is identify scapegoats,

The FS redacts all the important items so with legal issues still hovering no one will
discuss the details of any investigation so we can learn something.

This fight is worth fighting for, because it goes far beyond E.D and his problems. This
will affect the response in the future, coupled with IFPM they will restrict a small supply
of ICs. I wonder, do our structural brothers and sisters have such laws facing them?
How do they deal with that?

We cant bring back our friends and colleagues but we can work to change the culture
of protect the upper managers and crucify the trench warriors.

On a personal note I know Ellreese and I knew Tom. This is tough to think out, I could
go either way. I wish him the best and hope that the FS/fire agencies learn something
from this.

later Bushman 82'

It all has to do with human factors: Crew Cohesion, Wildland Fire Transition, and Fatalities (pdf file)

As for your questions:
In Region 5, jumpers carry a scaled down version of all the pocket cards of the region. If we IA out of region, we try to print one up before take-off. Also, our IC Kits have Incident Complexity Rating Sheets. This is common practice amongst all the jump bases. One of the issues that makes our job a challenge is that we go to many places where we are not familiar with unique hazards or fire history. We do have a decent idea about areas that we jump often, but there are many places we don't see often enough to have that knowledge. We try to ask a lot of questions from locals. I also agree we need to break down any barriers we have, work together, learn together, and become a stronger organization together.

smkj79

What I'm concerned about is that

• he will not know,
• his Public Defender will not know (not know the precedent setting legal situation we're in, be overloaded with many cases, etc, etc)
• no money to hire someone who does know,
• no network to find a (volunteer) lawyer who was a firefighter, SJ (?), is father or son or family member of a firefighter, someone who knows this particular kind of law and also who understands firefighter training, fireground issues, fire culture, the fog of decision making in high stress circumstances, etc.

I think our wildland fire community could put out the word and address and solve those issues. As I understand it, the Wildland Firefighter Legal Assistance Fund is still in existence. I bet the word could go out in SoCal and we could beef it up, if needed. The loss of ICs in their part of the country would be catastrophic. And loss of ICs nationwide is what we're facing if Ellreese is railroaded into copping a plea because of what he perceives to be no alternatives. The law is all about precedents. We're already well down the slippery slope.

With our support if he decides not to agree to the equivalent of a plea bargain and has to go to trial, I think we should be planning to go all the way. If it came to it, this would be a good time to push for Supreme Court review of the "criminalization of wildland firefighters".

I hope it won't go that far, but if I'm "in for the penny, I'm in for the pound" and I'm just looking ahead to how to best handle the worst case scenario.

One other thing I've wondered... is about the person who brought the charges: What "glasses" does he wear? How does he see the world? What motivates him? What does he aspire to politically? What is his bias? I do not wish him ill, however I do seek to understand him. He rises in my estimation for having taken some firefighter training, but he could have gone into that with a scapegoat already in mind. Guess I have some research in front of me.

Please, please tell Ellreese not to agree to any "plea bargain". We need time to chart the best course for all of us.

Thanks everyone for not blaming any of the families. They're part of us.

Thanks IAWF and FWFSA for stepping up and sending out your (our) press release far and wide. You rock!

Ab, feel free to pass my contact info on to Ellreese, his lawyer, or anyone who could help.

Mellie

"Written direction for the management of fires is numerous, confusing
and in some cases contradictory. There are separate or additional requirements that
relate specifically to the Agency which is responsible for managing the fire. Forms are
duplicated with different names. As we continue to work in an interagency environment,
the differences for Department of Interior personnel and Department of Agriculture
personnel do not appear until trying to sort which policies must be complied with on
which fire. The lack of unified definitions, common and standard language could easily
affect the method and manner the fire is managed."

Similar are the differences between the Forest Service and CDF... But we all understand each other and watch each others backs nowadays....

We are getting there... someday we will have a safer wildland fire community when we all have the same language and processes for looking for Lessons Learned... and we can all speak freely as friends with similar circumstances...

Lobotomy

Media and politicians are really hearing the community of wildland
firefighters, in regards to 30 mile. Time to really "catch a gear" and
be heard... ripples in the pond.

dragmccloud

Hopefully the feds won't be far behind.

KB

Just Culture is an organizational ethic where employees are encouraged
to report errors and mistakes because of an ethical recognition that other
employees and managers must learn (and then make adjustments to
compensate) from normal human error. Rewards and punishments are
based on the employee’s values and how he or she acted on their values.
If an employee’s values are consistent with the organization’s values
(with the value of human life being the core value) then their errors and
mistakes should be treated as normal and ethical human error.

Traditional organizational reaction to errors often includes punishment for
normal, or “honest,” human error. This inevitably results in the suppression
of error reporting and the collapse of a reporting culture.

FC180

Original Ab's 2004 comments on Why Federal Agencies Should Support Their ICs. Clear, prophetic. Ab.

Here is the full version copy (.html) of the abstract that vfd cap'n was referencing. It is free copy and available from the Western Journal of Medicine. I read it over two years ago and it is a very good foundational read for those interested in Human Error/Human Factors.... but you have to read it all to get the gist of where Dr. Reason is going..... It will make you want to read all of his research and presentations.

It also has some very good information on blame, HRO's, and the failures of people based systems that are currently in use.

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1070929

Student of Reason

"Human or worker error is not always the result of carelessness or negligence,
but follows from normal human characteristics. The desire for extra speed, less
work and making tasks easier, are some of the leading reasons why injuries
occur."

Read the rest.

Firey DownUnda

After all the news of the pending lawsuit, and the criminal charges, what
do they think is going to happen? One answer is who will want to step into
the ICT3 positions? I know that with the added pressure you can count me
out. I believe there is an article out entitled "where have all the ICs gone"
I think that sums up how many of us feel.

Thanks, ab
ENOP

"Meanwhile, the wildland fire community also has had considerable heartburn the last 5 years following the Forest Service investigation, which mostly took a "system approach" by, among other things, creating the Thirtymile checklist for managers."

I must respectfully disagree with you, while I think we are trying to say the same things. Most of the items within the Thirty Mile Checklist and subsequent policies were also person oriented and directed towards the troops on the ground, rather than looking at the latent systemic failures leading up to tragedies.

After doing countless hours of research regarding the work and theories of Dr. Reason, I feel the actions of the Forest Service following Thirty Mile to be a prime example of concentrating too much on the failure, rather than examining the organizational culture that allowed the failures in the first place.

By adding policies, checklists, or additional procedures to an already overloaded "pilot" (ie.-IC or line officer), it does little to create a safer "cockpit" (the wildland fire profession).

The "systems approach" recognizes that humans will always make errors. As such, the organization realizes the inherent risks and designs policies, operating procedures, and technology around the human to minimize their chances of error. The actions of the Forest Service following the Thirty Mile fire did none of these. In fact, they did the opposite by overloading incident commanders and line officers, while shielding the latent systemic failures that need to be corrected. Those actions also ensured that there would always be someone to "blame" at the bottom rather than share the "blame" throughout the organization.

The only actions that the Forest Service has done regarding a "systems approach" was the Foundational Doctrine... and it appears to have stalled after meeting opposition by some very vocal people in some of the Regional and in the Washington Office.

Lobotomy

Wildfire Groups Concerned about Public Safety and
Property Protection in Light of Criminal Charges

HOT SPRINGS, SD, December 28, 2006

Contact:
Dick Mangan, IAWF President, (406) 543-0013
Chuck Bushey, IAWF President-Elect, (406) 248-8307
Casey Judd, FWFSA Business Mgr., (208) 775-4577

IAWF Offices: 605-890-2348
www.iawfonline.org

The International Association of Wildland Fire (IAWF) and the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) believe that the criminal charges for involuntary manslaughter filed by the U.S. Attorney in Spokane, Washington just before Christmas against the Crew Leader who lost four (4) firefighters in July 2001 on a wildfire does not serve the Public’s needs for fire protection.

Outgoing IAWF President Dick Mangan of Missoula, Montana and incoming IAWF President Chuck Bushey of Billings, Montana stated their opposition to the criminal charges today. Their concerns were echoed by Casey Judd, Executive Director of FWFSA.

The charges against the Crew Leader, coming more than 5 and one-half years after the fatal fire event, has had a chilling effect on Federal and State wildland firefighters across the U.S., and is also being carefully watched by Australian and European fire personnel. Since the announcement by Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Hopkins of his intent to bring the Crew Boss before a Grand Jury, firefighters have been coming forward stating their unwillingness to accept the responsibilities of making the sometimes split-second decisions, only then to find their decisions reviewed with 20-20 hindsight for more than 5 years, resulted in criminal charges.

For the public at large, and for homeowners and others with property in the areas generally described as the wildland-urban interface, this may result in fewer highly qualified firefighters taking leadership roles on fires, and a more conservative and less aggressive approach to suppressing wildfires by those willing to accept leadership positions such as Incident Commander or Crew Supervisors. The end result could be more acres burned, more homes and other structures destroyed, and greater fire suppression costs to the taxpayers.

Mangan and Bushey of IAWF, with more than 50 years of professional wildland fire experience between them, have both served in wildfire leadership positions across the U.S. Both appreciate the uncertainty of some fire situations, and the decisions that must be made under stressful conditions with lives and property at risk.

IAWF and FWFSA believe that while holding firefighters and leaders accountable is essential to safe and efficient fire ground operations, the criminalization of firefighters for their decisions is counter-productive, and fails to serve the public’s needs for wildland fire protection.

Note: the criminal complaint can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/y9dxcy

The International Association of Wildland Fire is an organization founded to promote a better understanding of wildland fire, built on the belief that an understanding of this dynamic natural force is vital for natural resource management, for firefighter safety, and for harmonious interaction between people and their environment. The IAWF Board of Directors includes members from Portugal, Australia, Greece, Canada and the US.

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association is an employee association formed in 1990 by and for federal wildland firefighters. We are THE political voice for all federal wildland firefighters. Our membership spans the full spectrum of firefighter positions from entry level through management officers. The FWFSA is dedicated and committed to improving pay, benefits and working conditions for the Nation's federal wildland firefighters as well as providing a forum for our members to become active advocates in the process of increasing awareness and education among those in Washington D.C. who are in a position to effect positive change.

Excellent. Ab.

“INTENT. A person acts with intent or intentionally
when he acts with the objective or purpose to
accomplish a result which constitutes a crime.”

There are four elements that define manslaughter guilt
in Washington:

1. INTENT,
2. KNOWLEDGE,
3. RECKLESSNESS, &
4. CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

Now the next issue is “recklessness” or “criminal
negligence”. Washington State defines them as:

RECKLESSNESS. A person is reckless or acts recklessly
when he knows of and disregards a substantial risk
that a wrongful act may occur and his disregard of
such substantial risk is a gross deviation from
conduct that a reasonable man would exercise in the
same situation.

CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. A person is criminally negligent
or acts with criminal negligence when he fails to be
aware of a substantial risk that a wrongful act may
occur and his failure to be aware of such substantial
risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard
of care that a reasonable man would exercise in the
same situation.

Trying to figure out that is really hard since
Washington code reads:

Culpability as Determinant of Grade of Offense. When
the grade or degree of an offense depends on whether
the offense is committed intentionally, knowingly,
recklessly, or with criminal negligence, its grade or
degree shall be the lowest for which the determinative
kind of culpability is established with respect to any
material element of the offense.

Wow!!! That was painful. But it is for a purpose…

I was reading the actual criminal complaint again. In
each count it accuses Daniels of “gross negligence”
vs. “criminal negligence”. Interestingly enough in
Washington State the state’s code only refers to
“gross negligence” when dealing with civil law NOT
criminal law. It also states Daniels acted with
“reckless disregard”. So if they are going for
“recklessness” they have to prove Daniels performance
was a “gross deviation” from the standard. “Gross
deviation” is defined as extreme deviation from the
standard that would be expected of a reasonable man.

So either way…maybe, just maybe there is a break here.
Hope his lawyer is on top of her game...We’ll see!

BLM Boy

Thanks for sharing some of the research. Ab.

"The AFMO [Koyle] then met with the Fillmore DR and reviewed operational issues. At that time it was agreed that if progress towards containment was not made by 1400 hours they would develop a Wildland Fire Situation Analysis (WFSA) for the incident."

- www.nifc.gov/ARB_Factual_Report.pdf

I think that pressure (get production on the line or else increase paperwork at the office) is why he felt compelled to go down the drainage to check the spot fires as their deadline approached.

vfd cap'n

Yeah it makes a big difference, we are a huge community. 30 mile has brought a larger issue to light is public law 107-203, and the first time a fireline supervisor is being tried as a accused criminal. This sets a huge precedent.... At least one small dedicated grassroots group has started a lot of phone calls, letters, and e-mails to elected officials and their appointees in our state and washington state. We can not afford to lose this one.

lets get this going

This "Save Ellreese" effort is already going and will be going better. There are a number of members of this community who are already calling, making comments to the media as professional wildland firefighters and writing letters. Plans are being made. The timing of the announcement of the indictment was not chance -- when wildland firefighters were taking time off for the holidays and after an election. Emails have been passed behind the scenes. The effort has been is ramping up. We'll need everyone's help and we'll need to fill the grand jury room with respectful supporters willing to testify when the time comes. Some excellent points were made in the most recent news article. Letter writers could keep it simple and focus on those, if you haven't composed your letters to your federal legislators yet. Ab.

I was present the following year when one of the 30 mile accident investigators gave a briefing on what happened. From what he said, what I have read, and from looking at photos of the area pre and post fire I can only come to a single conclusion, a horrible and tragic accident occurred. I was absolutely amazed and shocked that anyone could possibly find that 1 person to blame for the outcome of a decision that started with an order for firefighters. To try and place blame on 1 individual out of the masses who were there is nothing short of insanity. In the military we were always taught that the Commanding Officer has ultimate responsibility for what happens in their command. Why aren't the senior ICT members being named in the indictment? If the government feels the crew boss is criminally liable what about the squad boss, or the division sup, or (god forbid) the ICT1. Who ordered the crew into that position? Aren't they just as liable?

Does this mean that anyone who is involved in any way with the firefighting effort, from the porta-potty vendor to the company that makes the MRE's, from the volunteer fire department to the contract helicopter vendor can and will be held criminally accountable if something goes wrong? Will the US District Attorney file criminal charges against the chainsaw manufacturer when someone gets a cut? If this ridiculous waste of taxpayer money actually goes to trial I will be there every day to watch, listen, and take notes. After the trial ends each day I will be pleased to give interviews to the press extolling the nonsense of this complete and total waste of tax dollars not to mention the travesty of trying to hold anyone legally accountable for an act of nature. What happened at 30 mile was an accident not a criminal act. 30 mile should be mined for lessons learned not for how we can blame a soldier for the decision of a General.

I have to wonder though that since the alleged criminal act took place while the defendant was actively employed by the Forest Service, following orders from Forest Service supervisors, fighting a fire on public land, if the Forest Service will provide any legal assistance? My money is on No. I will gladly put my money where my mouth is and contribute to a defense fund and do whatever I can to help stop this insanity. I have to agree that there will be a loud noise as firefighters refuse positions of authority for fear of being held criminally liable for decisions made in the heat of battle with only the information at hand and their own experience and knowledge to rely on. As another writer said, we have a second to make a decision that others can agonize over for years.

It is NOT my intention to offend anyone. I had to voice my frustration and incredulity at the complete waste of time and money in trying to blame 1 person for this tragic accident.

Missoula Squid

Welcome, former lurker. Ab.

Current events, political & legal ramifications, were a topic of discussion as was the trend towards ever increasing responsibility without equivalent classification, pay or benefits; and their individual personal liability quotient.

As a listener, I went to bed thinking about a frightening issue that seems to be looming on the horizon - attrition!

To those who are applying to a hopefully better working environment, best of luck. To those who are healing, prayers. To those who are vacationing, enjoy.

Happy New Year and good fortune,

River

Since I have been working in montana for the last 3 months, i could have gotten some patches from there to give to Nora for her Sr. project. When i get back, i'll talk to the fire shops on both the districts I work on as well as the 2 SOs and work to get them sent in prior to my departure to FLETC in late January.

Ironically, I am back in sonora right now and, had i had them with me, I would have delivered them personally to Nora at school prior to her break. Sorry i did not know there was a need. Congrats to her on getting the project approved by the school, though.

Ill get those sent in prior to going to Georgia.

Squirt Gun

Supervisors worry about effects of charges in wildfire deaths

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

YAKIMA, Wash. -- The government's decision to file criminal charges against the boss of firefighters who perished during a 2001 wildfire in Washington state has potential fire supervisors having second thoughts about taking on the dangerous duty.

Ellreese Daniels was charged last week with four counts of involuntary manslaughter stemming from his role as a U.S. Forest Service crew boss during the Thirtymile wildfire in Okanogan County in July 2001.

Lawyers for Daniels and other federal employees targeted in the government's investigation of the Thirtymile fire's handling say the criminal charges are inappropriate. They say many of the nation's wildland firefighters now worry they could end up facing criminal allegations for mistakes they make on the job.

Several firefighting veterans said the new rules have them buying personal liability insurance to protect their homes and pensions in case they get called into court, the Yakima Herald-Republic reported in its Thursday editions.

We certainly don't want to see a fire season where we can't find adequate people to manage the scene because the DA in Washington state decided to bring manslaughter charges, whether it's warranted or not,"

said Casey Judd of the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, which lobbies on behalf of federal firefighters.

Elton Thomas, a retired Okanogan National Forest fire management officer, said he believes Daniels could have done more to prevent the Thirtymile deaths, but didn't mean for anyone to die.

Whatever the outcome of the criminal charges, the case will change the nation's firefighting system, he said.

"There's maybe going to be a new `normal' out of this that people are going to have to adjust to, but it's going to be a significant effect," Thomas said.

Daniels' public defender called the charges baseless and contended he's being singled out among many in the chain of command who made mistakes.

Debra Roth, a Washington, D.C., attorney whose firm represented some targets of the Thirtymile investigation, also questioned the government's decision to prosecute.

"This is a guy who's going to work ... and he's doing his job, terrible things happened and four people died. It's not your typical manslaughter case," Roth said.

The deaths brought about changes in the way the Forest Service and other federal firefighting agencies attack wildfires, as well as new rules for reviewing wildfire deaths.

The families of the dead firefighters successfully pushed Congress to require the U.S. Department of Agriculture to independently investigate whenever a Forest Service crew is fatally overcome by flames.

Ken Weaver, whose son Devin died at Thirtymile, said Daniels wouldn't be facing charges if the deaths were unavoidable. Daniels failed to guarantee an escape route, a cardinal safety rule in the Forest Service, Weaver contends.

"This is a poster child for prosecution," Weaver said. "As long as you follow the rules and do everything you can, you're not going to get in trouble. The only thing you get in trouble for is not following the rules."

Advocates for firefighters already are calling for Congress to reconsider whether criminal charges are the best answer for deaths on the firelines.

Daniels also faces seven counts of lying to investigators about his role in fighting the 9,300-acre fire, which grew from an unattended campfire.

Prosecutors allege Daniels knew, or should have known, the crew would be trapped and that he failed to protect them during at least 30 minutes they had to prepare for the approaching inferno.

Killed were Yakima firefighters Devin Weaver, 21, Jessica Johnson, 19, and Karen FitzPatrick, 18, and their squad boss trainee, Tom Craven, 30, of Ellensburg.

The government's approach raises questions about the use of manslaughter charges, Roth contends. The charge is more typically used in cases of unintentionally deadly conduct, such as drunk driving, or when police questionably use deadly force, he said.

"They are a stretch away from the kinds of acts or omissions that occurred or may have occurred in any of these fires," Roth said. "From a legal perspective, it's an interesting use of the statute."

Judd said Congress should reconsider what it wanted when it passed the bill.

He said he isn't suggesting that criminal charges be off-limits for every fire death. But he said the legislation - a well-intended effort to appease the grieving Thirtymile families - didn't consider all the ramifications.

"There was no thought process given to how the dynamics of the legislation would play out," Judd said. "I think if they actually had hearings and had firefighters there, maybe there wouldn't have been a bill, or it would have been written differently."

fair use disclaimer

So I have been lurking about the charges brought against Ell. I don't know the guy personally, but he is a brother. I will give what I can to help his defense and I am in Seattle till after the first of the year. I think we need to make our voices heard with the US Attorneys office. I am willing to drive over to Spokane this week or after the first of the year and have my voice heard. If Casey would like to meet up with me...Maybe both of us and anyone else that would like to join can all meet up and get a meeting with The U.S. District Attorney? I'm willing to start doing the foot work to get the meeting set up and drive over there to deal with it. It may require me to take some LWOP but if It helps a brother out, I'm all for it. And I propose that if you can't attend. Send Me a formal letter addressed to the US District Attorney via email. I will hand them over to the D.A.

Elected officials and their minions fear nothing more than a public outcry against something they are trying to do! If this travesty continues the U.S. District Attorney's office might as well start getting ready to start accepting resignation letters from FFT1 on up. This has implications not only in the Federal side, but rippling on down to State and municipal settings. This case will set precedent for every other fatality case nation wide.

Northnight

"This test shows measurable differences in the amount of heat absorbed by hardhats of different colors. The data support the basic principle that lighter colors absorb less solar radiation, generating less heat inside a hardhat than darker colors. While the heating effect is less pronounced when temperatures are warmest, firefighters wearing lighter colored hardhats generally will be subjected to less heat gain throughout the day."

Sign me, .... One of the folks wanting to keep the "Chrome Domes" for Hotshots.... they were lighter and reflected more radiant heat...... especially if you took time to shine them.......

P.S. - Some time ago, the "Chrome Domes" were done away with under the guise of electrical hazards.... What was the true hazard? I don't remember any wildland firefighters being killed or injured from electrical hazards from their helmets.....

Statement (as prepared) by Senator Maria Cantwell on the Deaths of Four Firefighters in Okanogan County

Wednesday, July 11,2001
"It is with a heavy heart that I come to the floor today after learning of the tragic deaths of four firefighters in the Wenatchee National Forest in Washington state. These courageous firefighters died yesterday battling a wildfire in Okanogan County. A tragedy of this magnitude is felt throughout Washington state, but should also be recognized and mourned by a grateful nation.

"On behalf of the citizens of Washington state, I extend my deepest sympathies to the families of the four brave men and women who gave their lives to protect their neighbors. Squad Leader Tom Craven of Ellensburg, Devin Weaver of Yakima, Jessica Johnson of Yakima, and Karen Fitzpatrick of Yakima gave their lives to keep us safe. This tragedy is compounded because these firefighters were so young - Tom Craven was 30 years old, Devin Weaver was 21, Jessica Johnson was 19, and Karen Fitzpatrick was 18. We join their families and friends in mourning their loss.

"I also want to wish the firefighters who were injured a speedy recovery. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

"The firefighters of the U.S. Forest Service come from all over the country and have been battling fires for many years. This year alone, 300 firefighting personnel are available on the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests. These firefighters work year after year in service to their country with little recognition. On behalf of the residents of Washington state and the nation, thank you for your hard work and dedication under some of the most difficult circumstances.

"This tragedy reminds us that we often take for granted the men and women who routinely put their lives on the line to protect us. Every state in the nation has experienced a serious fire and, tragically, the loss of a firefighter. This fire will be fully investigated and we will learn from it so we can prevent similar tragedies.

"I hope the families and friends of these brave firefighters can take some comfort knowing that the courage and sacrifice of their loved ones will not be forgotten."

I believe that bill was created with all good intentions but with a lack of understanding of the consequences for our nation. When people, including our legislators, don't understand the large picture, it's easy to focus on the small part to the detriment of the nation's wildland firefighting capability. It's time to revisit the bill, to educate and to make corrections. Ab.

"Try to pick natural firebreaks such as wet meadows, creek beds, wet swampy areas, and rock slides" Part 2, Page 12.

"Large rockslides (right) can be effective deployment sites, but firefighters should deploy their shelters well away from grass, brush, and trees." Part 2, Page 14.

Is there any chance that the four firefighters who went into the rocky area were just doing what they were trained to do and just didn't recognize the convective hazards? Is there a chance that firefighters with similar training, experience, and education would have done the same thing?

Todd

We Abs are willing to offer private breakout or briefing rooms on the vBulletin (hotlist) forum for you to hammer out whatever needs to be hammered out among your designated group members. All you need to do is sign up for the hotlist forum, choose a moniker, perhaps one you have not used before, and have your working group leader tell us who is allowed into the particular breakout room. The site and what you communicate with each other will not be visible or readable by others. We will keep all confidential. It is good to see the collaboration and action being taken behind the scenes by professional wildland firefighters.

The Abs

PS. We're having serious winter storms. Right now the power is down where I am and OA is posting theysaid. Hopefully power will be up later today. The phone is working at the moment. Feel free to email or call OA or me. Ab.

AB

Here is a portion of an interesting article about the relationship between the increase in the Atlantic Ocean temperatures and wild land fire intensity in the Western United States. It states in part:

A look back across 500 years' worth of wildfire history shows fire season intensity across Western North America increases in direct proportion to, of all things, surface temperatures of the North Atlantic Ocean.

Given that the Atlantic warms and cools in 60-year cycles and the ocean is entering its next warm phase, researchers predict a decades long increase in widespread fires across the Western United States in the coming years.

And global warming only will exacerbate that trend.

The findings are being published this week in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science. The research was led by Thomas Kitzberger of the Universidad Nacional del Comahue in Argentina and scientists at the University of Colorado and the University of Arizona.

The link to this article is http://www.chicoer.com/news/bayarea/ci_4901751. Of course, this is only one part of the puzzle, but an interesting part, none the less.

Nor Cal FBAN

But lets talk about some facts:

• We all are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our own safety.
• Firefighting is inherently dangerous; loss of life is possible.
• Fireline leaders are human and it is always possible for them to make mistakes.
• Making leaders fearful of making mistakes is not the answer.

Now, just for the heck of it let’s think about a couple of things:

• How many deaths and disabling injuries have taken place during professional sports events?
• Have the players and coaches ever been charged with a crime?
• How about the referee? Well, they are supposed to keep the players under control and playing safe!

I did not mean to compare firefighting with professional sports; there is no comparison…we actually are productive members of society. But the point I was trying to make is what we do is sometimes dangerous…it is a fact…and we all accepted that.

People will make mistakes in life. The key was it intentional?

So who made the mistakes? I don’t know, I have no first hand knowledge of everyone’s actions that day. But I do know that criminally prosecuting someone for mistakes on the fireline is only going to make everything for everyone worse.

One last point…I just checked in the IQCS database for a “John R. Parker”. Seems that the only two people in the IQCS database don’t match the John R. Parker in the affidavit. Hummmmmm, so we have an investigator conducting an investigation who doesn’t even have his qualifications on file in the official source. And then again…when did he take his last refresher training, is he current with his quals? Kinda makes you wonder just a little bit about his ability to conduct an informed or competent investigation.

BLM Boy

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/FF6FF48F-22B3-4497-899D-12A2766D3D20/

Thousands of volunteers battling forest blazes in Australia's south-east corner received a timely Christmas present Monday when snow fell on fires that over the last three weeks have burned 870,000 hectares.

"I didn't actually believe it until it actually came last night," volunteer fireman Paul Koenig told national broadcaster ABC in the Mt Buller ski resort in Victoria.

"It's put the white cover across the buildings and the white cover over the ground, so it looks beautiful," he said.

In Melbourne, the state capital, it was the coldest Christmas Day in 70 years. In the neighbouring state of New South Wales temperatures also plummeted with the Thredbo ski resort receiving a dusting of snow.

In Hobart, the Tasmanian state capital, children were throwing snowballs where a week ago smoke plumed from a forest on fire.

"We've come all the way from England for a warm summer and here we are in the snow in Hobart, but we're still enjoying it," one tourist told the ABC.

Weather bureau forecaster Scott Williams said the unseasonably low temperatures meant fires in three states could be extinguished by the end of the week.

"It's a terrific Christmas present for the firefighters," Williams said. "It's going to go a long way to putting the fires out."

At their height, 4,000 firefighters were pitched against the blazes. There were contingents from New Zealand as well as from the military. Dozens of water-bombing aircraft have been in action.

Forest fires sparked by lightning or set by arsonists are a feature of the hot southern hemisphere summer. Four years ago seven people were killed, 500 houses razed and 3 million hectares of forest lost - an area three times the size of Britain.

Good news. Ab.

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-=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=-
ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°ºø¤ ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`

From the Abs at wildlandfire.com

Thanks Kathy and Ken.

Have a wonderful day everyone! (Boy is it storming in my
neck'o'the'woods!)

Mellie

Tahoe Terrie

I just came across your site and wanted to give you a quick update. The Governor’s staff could not find a way past the (CA) Franchise Tax Board’s rules so the fund (1.1 million dollars) could not be disbursed before Christmas. This disappointment and frustration will be corrected when the State Legislature reconvenes. We will get a State exemption similar to the Federal legislation as quickly as possible. Ask your members to contact their representatives and tell them to watch for the upcoming bills. They will be carried by Sen. Battin and Assemblymen Benoit and Cook.

The good news is we are getting some support to permanently correct this deficit in the tax code. Riverside County has added a permanent fix to its 2007 political agenda as a top priority. The County is a frequent wildfire victim and very much wants to fix this thing. United Ways in California public policy committee has expressed interest in supporting a national fix, and Central County United Way in Hemet looks forward to not only disbursing the fund as soon as possible, but will do all it can to help amend tax code to prevent this hang up from ever occurring again.

Thank all your members for what they do;

Bob Duistermars, President
Central County United Way (California)

Thanks for your work on this too, Bob. Ab.

Forest Service veterans worry about precedent
www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/301405246229736

The prospect became reality Wednesday when federal manslaughter charges were filed against former crew boss Ellreese Daniels.

U.S. Forest Service veterans believe it was the first time criminal charges had ever been filed in connection with wildland fire deaths, and said it could worsen a growing sense among firefighters that their homes, jobs and pensions aren't worth the seasonal thrill of knocking down flames.

"I would think this is going to have a real chilling effect on the folks that are out there, the boots on the ground," said Jim Furnish, a retired headquarters official who led the Thirtymile fatality investigation for the Forest Service.

Furnish said after leaving the agency several years ago that he believed some Thirtymile supervisors and managers should have faced more severe discipline. None was ever fired.

Even so, the announcement of criminal charges so many years after the fire surprised Furnish and others.

"I have to admit I'm kind of flabbergasted," he said.

Furnish suggested that allegations that Daniels lied about his role might have spurred prosecutors to take a tougher approach.

Earlier, some of his statements prompted Furnish's investigative team to revise their report that Daniels had surely ordered the firefighters off the slope where they died.

[snip]

Retired Forest Service fire investigator Dick Mangan is even more blunt, suggesting that federal prosecutors took their sweet time examining every one of Daniels' actions -- a luxury he didn't have in the midst of a 9,300-acre blaze.

"Sometimes we have a decision space of 30 seconds, a minute, two minutes -- and you don't always get it right," said Mangan, a three-decade Forest Service veteran who has since served in active operations and safety posts.

He questioned whether the charges were motivated by publicity or politics.

"Five and a half years later, they have perfect 20-20 hindsight and they can find things wrong? I don't find that very beneficial to the fire service," Mangan said.

Hi Ab,

Peets coffee collected a little over $150.00 in donations today; so with the company
match, the Fund will be receiving a little over $300.00. Not too bad for Christmas
Eve when a lot of people are not out and about. Would have been nice if it had
been more, but every little bit helps.

Wishing you all a very merry Christmas.

Annette

Thanks Annette and thanks to Peets for supporting our families at Christmas time. Ab.

Ab(s);

Now, THAT'S a Christmas tree! Merry Christmas, ya'll, and Happy and Safe New Year.

Pyro5755

Thanks Pyro. We updated the top of this page and the photo on the wildlandfire.com index page.
Thanks to Sting for the great firey Christmas tree photo. Ab.

Some interesting thoughts from the Missoulian's Editor about the role of the USFS in protecting structures in the WUI: www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/12/24/opinion/opinion1.prt

Dick Mangan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's the Forest Service, not fire department - Sunday, December 24, 2006

SUMMARY: Masking, shifting fire protection costs encourages illogical development.

An audit completed late last month by the U.S. Department of Agriculture Office of Inspector General hammers the Forest Service for burning money in the way it fights forest fires. Although auditors conclude the agency wastes money through poor cost containment and by fighting fires that might actually do more good than harm by thinning overgrown forests, much of the high cost of firefighting comes from protecting private property, not the national forests.

Indeed, depending on the degree of development, between 50 percent and 95 percent of the cost of firefighting may be attributable to protecting homes and other structures on private property, the auditors found.

That's not altogether surprising to anyone here in Montana or elsewhere in the West, where every summer we see the Forest Service pulling out all the stops to protect lives and structures - small armies of men and women on the ground, helicopters and bombers aloft, huge fleets of vehicles and a massive organization providing logistical support. When smoke's rising, virtually no one questions expenditures aimed at protecting private property - unless it's to complain they're insufficient. Recall last summer when Montana's Sen. Conrad Burns publicly blasted firefighters for not doing enough to save the grass in pastures on which rancher's cows could graze. After the massive fires of 2000, firefighters sheepishly conceded they'd spent more money protecting some buildings than the structures were worth.

But if the point made in the audit isn't new, perhaps it's time to take a new look at the problem.

To read the rest, click the link above. Ab.

www.ozfire.org./viewtopic.php?t=2181 < may need to join for free, but may be of
interest as lots of pics of scenes & appliances....

A follow up from Dick's link, the Cowwarr crew were out when a deliberately lit fire
came at the town from an unexpected direction resulting in a number of homes lost.

The best thing tho is there is rain falling around much of SE Oz which means we're
home for Xmas & hopefully NYE...

OB

Have a good Christmas and New Year. Ab.

My promise is to keep doing what I have always done. To do the job to the best of my ability. To also trust the people around me to do the best job to their ability. Not to let myself get caught up in anger and hate to blame the system. We are here to serve, and serve I will.

Merry Christmas
Wako

What happened to the greatest good for the most people in the long run?
Are they just empty thoughts?

Doug

Dear Ab:

I hope that our agency will figure out the travesty of injustice going on and that Bosworth and Harbour see first hand the tremendous amount of stress and tension going on in the fire organization. All to often I have seen folks in their positions and line officer positions such as district rangers that lack leadership in every meaning of the word. I will echo Misery Whip and all the others that we need to band together and support Ellreese Daniels and Allen Hackett. Maybe we should all go on strike this summer and see what happens. I am utterly disgusted with line officers who lack a backbone and those in D.C. that can flaunt the Pulaski Doctrine in our faces - that makes me want to puke and MEANS NOTHING TO ME!!! How pathetic these line officer types have become by trying to 'not rock the boat' and support a firefighter that stuck their neck out to continue down the path of ICT3, but for what? To save some line officer type's a**!!!

I find it rather interesting how when s*** hits the fan, I have NEVER seen a line officer type ever take accountability or responsibility. What ever happened to leading by example? I work for a district ranger that is the most pathetic I have ever witnessed in my 20 year career. We broke our own escape fire and handled it with the utmost professionalism and safety - he was not even present during the fire initially but tried to take credit for the decisions we made in his absence - and did not even have the backbone to acknowledge good decisions had been made. I believe that bad leadership needs to be challenged here and now and these line officer types are NO LONGER EXEMPT from passing the buck. This one in particular, feels he doesn't need leadership courses - he never attended one and has no fire training beyond Guard School and calls himself a DIVS. How insulting!!! His lack of leadership and insecurities produced mass exodus from the district and I believe that those in D.C. are also at the root of the symptom. Step up to the plate, boys, and get a backbone. <snip> I challenge you to either lead this agency like you mean it - or go retire and let us step up and take care of our own who have stuck their necks out and will continue to stick their necks out as a "Band of Brothers and Sisters".

I am embarrassed to say I work for the US Forest Service because of the lack of leadership!!! However, I have the utmost respect for those Fire Staff and other line officer types that continue down the path of fire and lead by example and leading teams or participating on teams - right on and my hat is off to you folks. I would also congratulate the BLM by how they operate.

One other tidbit - we need to pursue that line officer types get adequate training and continuing fire education if they want to continue in line positions from DIVS and beyond. It's amazing how it gets buried in the crap of 'not rocking the boat'. As someone that has the duties of being the training officer for my district and challenged this very individual, I was told that my career would be over!!! I pursued it anyway and oh' how the retaliation kicked in. I would like to see this person put himself in Daniels' shoes and try to feel what could possibly be happening. He doesn't even have the guts to do that. Because of his ineptness and incompetence, I am getting liability insurance.

I look at this as the tidal wave about to hit land and the ripple effect is just starting to become visible!!!

'Jumpin Jack Flash'

Subject: Firefighting Cancer & FF Benefits (The Secret List)

Hey...
This will be quick 'cause I am still not done shopping. Don't say a word...I've been busy.
Anyway.. the issue of firefighters and cancer is coming more and more into the limelight... and not going away. Below is a link to an article related to a FF's family being denied benefits. Check it out.

But equally important is HOW WE CAN GET CANCER. For that, I was able to spend some time talking to Dr. Grace LeMasters who just lead that study on firefighting cancer. As a firefighter, the outcome of that recent study done by University of Cincinnati environmental health researchers will BLOW YOU AWAY. Their work-which directly impacts you, has determined that firefighters are significantly much more likely to develop four different types of cancers. Significantly. And they are not just talking about inhalation...for example, ya know that soot we "wear" for hours after a fire.......

Please take some time to LISTEN to "Part 1" of the discussions related to cancer and us. Here is the link:

http://dynamic.firehouse.com/broadcast/2006/12/22/firefighting-cancer/
or
http://dynamic.firehouse.com/broadcast/category/through-the-smoke/

And here is the news article from Canada:

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/OttawaAndRegion/2006/12/21/2914720-sun.html

Take Care-BE CAREFUL....at fires: use all your PPE...have no exposed skin....breathe nothing but clean air. Listen to the above interview, you'll better understand.

BillyG

Lobotomy has ranted on the dangers of smoke and wildland firefighter cancers for at least 4 years. Glad to see it's being addressed by a growing number of researchers. Often it is a body of research that shows patterns. Ab.

Ab,

I have just returned from Victoria, Australia where I led the 45 New Zealand (Kiwi) fire fighter who went over to assist them with the bush fires they are experiencing. I note some postings re the Burn Over incident the NZ task Force experienced on the 16th Dec on “They Said”. I’m very pleased to be able to advise that all of the injured are doing quite well now. Five of the six who were hospitalized were able to fly home with the rest of us yesterday (as planned). The 6th has stayed in Melbourne for some further skin graft treatment to his burns. Like your Marines, we didn’t like leaving our wounded behind but John is in very good hands in a Melbourne hospital and we expect him back in NZ after Xmas but before the New Year.

Our Task Force came back to NZ with our heads held high knowing that we had done our best and made a difference in what is a tough campaign battle going on in the State of Victoria. It is not all over yet and a few of the us who were in the first contingent will grab Xmas/New Year with our families before heading back to Victoria around the 3rd of Jan to continue the work. I think that overall, we have come out of the incident stronger and a little wiser in lots of different ways. We will welcome the findings of the investigation (stand practice for an injury incident) and we will look carefully at any “Lessons Learnt”.

On behalf of the NZ contingent I would like to thank those that keep the forum informed of our incident. The emails and postings of support have been gratefully noted. We are also conscious of the many of you who will have shared that moment when the news broke knowing that you will have been thinking of us and especially of our injured. The bond between Australia, the US and NZ has been always been strong and many of you may have met or worked with New Zealanders (Kiwis) in the previous deployments to US fires. You have had your troubled times and I know you will understand more than most what such an incident means physically and emotionally.

We are able to look forward to all 6 working their way back to full health and fitness over the next month or so. They will do this in the full knowledge of the tremendous support they have had from the Victorians and their fire fighting colleagues from throughout Australia, NZ and the USA.

On behalf of the Kiwis, I would also like to wish all of you on this forum a great Xmas and a safe New Year..

Alan
NZ Liaison Officer
Victoria Deployment
Dec 2006

Alan, Merry Christmas to you and yours as well. We're glad 5 of the 6 injured get to go home. Our best to John for a speedy recovery. Ab.

I have been a reader of They Said for many years.

I just finished reading the post and attachment from Misery Whip. I am
so pissed that our world has come to this. The court document affidavit
"overview" is full of subjective accounts and comments from Parker. I
am floored.

With that, I have composed a 3 page letter in a word document that I
am sending to all media groups. The first thing I want to yell out at
"these" people is, This is a dangerous job! I am a Type 3 IC, this is
my living.

BC10

Dick Mangan

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
True spirit shines
December 23, 2006
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

BUSHFIRE may have stolen the Walker family's home, but it couldn't take their Christmas spirit.

A deliberately-lit fireball that raged through their Gippsland property nine days ago left them with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

Those clothes are the garish orange of the Country Fire Authority -- a uniform they now wear as a badge of honour.

.. Article continues.

Alternatively, you can cut and paste this link into your browser:
http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,21985,20966475-661,00.html

Ab,
I'm sure you have been inundated with questions regarding the entire
E-57 Memorial Video. I tried the link that someone posted back on the 6th
and they seem to have no idea what I'm talking about regarding the video.
Any information on where I can order one for the district fire folks?
Below is the posting that was listed on the 6th.

Thanks, JTO

-Cara wrote:
JT,
CBS 2 has a video of the memorial service posted at
http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_309095328.html.

If you would like to purchase a copy of the video the form
and 800 number are at https://system.netsuite.com.

/Cara, any updated info on where this can be purchased or who we might ask? Anyone on Feser's Team know? Chuck? Ab./

I am waiting for final permissions to begin assembling all of the post Engine 57 items which will include a full screen version of the Memorial. That permission should be arriving soon and I would look for something after the first of the year. The video will have the cameras we had on stage plus we will include some cameras I had floating around the stadium. Down the road also will be a DVD of photos and a book of photos and words. Engine 57 families and SBNF/San JAC folks first and then released to the world. The number above is for the Webcast version which will not have the added footage and is much smaller in viewing size.

Wildman

In reference to the pending Thirty Mile Fire prosecution, I've edited this post of all disparaging script. Except for one... Scrooge! What kind of moron came up with the great timing? There, vented.

In another life, I've spent way too many years driving both brown and blue cruisers. As a Deputy, I'd spent much time "babysitting" prisoners during their Felony trials. Where I come from, police officers used to prosecute their own Misdemeanor and Violation cases, so I've had plenty of opportunity to do that as well. Honesty and Integrity goes a long way and I lost only a handful of cases at most during my tenure.

Here's what I learned, down and dirty...
Get a good lawyer early on. Try to find someone who has been "successful" in similar type cases.

Whenever possible, opt for a Jury Trial. You'll have twelve people listening to the case. Unless you really went over the deep end, there should be at least one person sitting there thinking "there but for the grace of God go I". Also, "peers" tend to love firefighters.

I think that we, collectively, should support re-examination of the statutes. Our forefathers had purposely built the "lag" into the law making process with the intention of reducing hasty "popular opinion driven legislation". This is a good example of one that got slipped in through the cracks.

"Free Ellreese!"

As always, Stay Safe! "Kicks"

I've been working today with Lillian at the WFF to get the 52 walk pledge/donation list updated and in order -- so our guys and gals at the WFF don't have to spend days and weeks at this process.

Please check the 52 Walk Donation List. To all whose names appear there: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

If your name's not there and it should be, there's a good chance it's my bad... or Swiss Cheese. Contact me. There have been minor glitches: a problem with Paypal, Ab not entering ALL the data, crossed eyes, too much spiked eggnog, a reindeer ate it, etc. We can fix it easily.

In addition, some contributions that were made to the WFF directly did not get on the list. There were companies the hotshots got to donate and fire businesses that helped out. There were firefighter associations that are part of this community that stepped up. We'd like to thank and honor all contributors and supporters. We're all in this together. Email me and we can update to add you.

I know everyone is caught up in other holiday priorities right now: time off, relaxing, not even checking the computer. When you get back to reading theysaid , if you don't remember what you pledged, or if you're part of a team, crew or group that's sending in your donation in pieces, and you need info, please check here and/or email Ab. Let me say that this is a work in progress. This Ab is just looking to expedite the process.

The goal is to say thanks to everyone!

In the meantime, thanks for your patience and cooperation. Any questions, email me. Ab.

It is. Ab.

Once upon a time, in the Middle Fork of the Salmon, a first year firefighter was caught with portions of two handcrews, and was surrounded by fire. The roughly 20 people retreated to the black, but smoke, embers, heat and a main fire run coming up canyon forced a deployment . As I stood there that day -- shielding my face from the over 200 foot flames, and admiring nature beyond prudent judgment, Ignorantly being the last to get under my shelter, and briefly taking in what 19 fire shelters deployed side by side looked like -- my fate was in my own hands.

The only thing the crew boss said that day was "let's go to the black" and "get your shelters out". The noise, confusion, smoky conditions, and almost hypnotic circumstances dictated that you do what you were trained to do. Not running off in different directions, not being out of earshot, but being shoulder to shoulder with your fellow firefighter and making sure that the person to the left and person to right and yourself got squared away.

All I can say is, let's don't run scared, let's stand shoulder to shoulder. Ellreese Daniels is being railroaded: these charges are practically made up, more than the fabrication that is alleged against him. We are are talking politics, money, and emotions and not sure in what order. But in response to the statement that Mr. Weaver made about "making it safer", my question to him is "how is that true?" I would like to hear one objective fact on how this will make it safer for the wildland firefighting community.

There are likely some reasons why Ellreese is being singled out, but that is probably better for, as someone suggested, one of those network docudrama shows to expose.

Intothewind.

What I see from all this is other federal resource personnel, outside of
fire -- such as biologist, timber and others -- getting out of the business
all together. Why would someone jeopardize their livelihood for a part time
job. I know a lot of people that want to give up their upper fire qualifications
and just be a firefighter.

It will be real interesting to see how this pans out for years to come.

Nepper

firechic

Thank you JD. I have heard the same from others privately and still others have retired as soon as they hit 50. Under other circumstances it's likely they would have continued in the job they love until closer to mandatory retirement at 57. What we have in wildland fire (and facing Incident Management Teams) is a brain and experience drain. Sure, there are good and intelligent professionals coming up, but they do not yet match the experience we're loosing at the top. We also have a huge hole in the middle fire manager ranks. Ab.

"In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

The sworn affidavit of John R. Parker (USDA-OIG Special Agent) consistently VIOLATES Public Law 107-203 by relying upon information from the Forest Service investigative record, the Forest Service Administrative Review Team, and the Forest Service Oral Reply Team.

This is a clear and willful violation of the law by Special Agent Parker. The U.S. Attorneys Office for the Eastern District of Washington also allowed this violation to be entered on their criminal complaint filed on December 19th.

Here is the link to the 52 Page Affidavit of Special Agent Parker

So, who really violated the law here? Seems pretty obvious.

President Bush, Secretary Johanns, Undersecretary Rey, Chief Bosworth, and Chief Harbour now all have factual information that they can act on, and it is on the record here at They Said and will soon be shared with the Press from numerous reliable sources.

Lobotomy

Bush signs bill for crew family
Measure eliminates IRS obstacle
Guy McCarthy, Staff Writer
Article Launched: 12/22/2006 12:00:00 AM PST

President Bush has signed a law that will allow more than $1million in donations to be disbursed tax-free to the families of five firefighters who died in the Esperanza Fire.

Internal Revenue Service restrictions could have affected donations that were collected by the United Way in Hemet and solicited in part by the Riverside County Board of Supervisors.

Three lawmakers from the San Bernardino-Riverside county area and the state's two U.S. senators moved quickly two weeks ago to change the tax law, securing unanimous passage of bills by both houses of Congress in less than 24 hours.

The crew of U.S. Forest Service Engine 57 - Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley; Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Jason McKay, 27, of Phelan; and Mark Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild - suffered fatal injuries Oct. 26 as they tried to protect a home in Twin Pines.

Sponsors of the legislation were Reps. Mary Bono, R-Palm Springs; Ken Calvert, R-Corona; Jerry Lewis, R-Redlands, and Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, both D-Calif.

Bush signed the Fallen Firefighter Assistance Tax Clarification Act of 2006 on Thursday afternoon, said Jason Vasquez, a spokesman for Bono.

The law's signing should bring a measure of comfort to families and friends who lost loved ones in the Esperanza Fire, Bono said in a prepared statement.

Good luck everyone and be careful out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jay Lawrence
KFI AM 640 Radio

fair use disclaimer

Sign me
Speaking for many

"The people in charge do not plan on having firefighters die nor do the firefighters go to work planning on dying, they all go to work to make a living at something they love. We hope that everyone stays safe, but we do realize that accidents happen.
It will not help to charge someone for a firefighter's death, it will just cause good firefighters to not be squad bosses, IC3's and etc. Many good firefighters will leave for fear of being charged when an accident happens."

is so true. Can you imagine the impacts if the FS were to lose most of its fire-line leadership because of the fear of persecution!

Thank you for your sacrifice you know that your son died doing what he loved, thank you for saying what has been quoted above. You have great faith and an true insight into what it is all about. Someone many years ago coined the term "Fog of War"; this applies equally on the fireline in a large, dynamic incident. No "fire boss" at any level should be persecuted for properly carrying out his/her duties; to the best of their knowledge and abilities.

Kathy and Ken thank you for expressing your thoughts. God bless and best wishes of the season.

ht

Mellie,

Let me give you the perspective from someone who has had a son killed in a wildfire.

Levi, was killed on Storm King along with 13 other firefighters. When Levi was killed I blamed many people. There were many mistakes made. Ken, was able to realize way before me that Levi had some culpability in his death. Right after his death we all were given a claim for the things that were in his red pack. After about the 4th or 5th time getting a letter back wanting to know how many socks he had in his red pack, we both had it and said we wanted 14 million dollars (it did get their attention). We were told we could sue the government. But that wasn't our goal, we wanted to change some things. Mostly being able to ask a question if things aren't feeling right. Ken blamed people that we later found out shouldn't have been blamed. We all must realize that was in the first months of Levi's death.

Twelve years later I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. The people in charge do not plan on having firefighters die nor do the firefighters go to work planning on dying, they all go to work to make a living at something they love. We hope that everyone stays safe, but we do realize that accidents happen.

It will not help to charge someone for a firefighter's death, it will just cause good firefighters to not be squad bosses, IC3's and etc. Many good firefighters will leave for fear of being charged when an accident happens.

There surely must be another way to approach this. We wish that congress would not try to be so politically correct and do what is fair and right.

Ken and Kathy

Annette

Readers, tell 'em theysaid sent ya. Ab.

The Thirtymile Investigation Report and other materials have been located at www.fs.fed.us/fire ; at the moment the whole Forest Service website is down for maintenance so I couldn't get at it to link here.

It is worthwhile reading both the complaint and the investigation and other materials including the OSHA citations. There were long discussions on "They Said" about the investigation and the OSHA citations and a lot of concern was expressed about safety. A number of significant changes regarding safety have been made - a lot of people worked hard to do this. And we still have fatalities - more work on safety to be done by all of us.

I'm not sure it is productive to blame Tom Harbour and Dale Bosworth for actions by the US Attorney. They have no ability to convince a US Attorney to do anything - they'd be accused of interference. Harbour and Bosworth's responsibilities are to be sure safe practices are in use, that those practices are reviewed and revamped when investigations show the practices are not working. Too often it's personal actions that lead to fatalities - how do we deal with that as firefighters and managers? We work in a dangerous world and this is a sad, sad story, repeated too many times of people who have died and the too many people who are affected by this.

Reread the investigation, the OSHA citations, the criminal complaint, To me, it's about safety and our responsibility. I'm sad about the criminal complaint - is it meant to ensure compliance with safety procedures? I really don't know what " justice" is when 4 people die and others are endangered, all I know is I am sad.

Bud

Links to all the 30mile documents and reports are listed on the Documents Worth Reading on the Archives page. The FS web has been down but some links go to the Lessons Learned website. Ab.

I am extremely happy to announce that Ed Hollenshead will be our new Regional Director of Fire and Aviation Management. Ed has been our deputy fire director since March, and stepped up to serve as Acting Director in early June for what proved to be an exceptionally challenging fire season here in California.

Ed came here from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, where he was in charge of FS fire operations safety nationwide. His strong field experience in fire-prone R-3, along with his forward-looking ideas, make Ed a great fit for this extremely challenging and high-profile job. I look forward to working with him in future years, as he continues to provide solid and steady leadership in this critical program area.

Bernie

I found who to send the letters to, but I keep going off and need to
calm down before I write it.........

So here is the info for everyone else.

United States Attorney's Office
920 W. Riverside Ave , Suite 340
P.O. Box 1494
Spokane, Washington 99201
Phone: (509) 353-2767
Fax: (509) 353-2766

James A. McDevitt US Attorney

Public Affairs Officer
Emily Langlie emily.langlie@usdoj.gov
(206) 553-4110

mjs

BLM has a dead link to it here: www.fire.blm.gov/library.htm under
Guides and Publications.

Anyone else know where I can get it?

~~~~~

Gizmo,

I concur with you layering comments. If it sucks (double layers),
but saves your life, then embrace the suck. Wildland Firefighter
magazine published an article about CDF's recent studies on
double vs single layer protection.

emt_mb

As we all struggle with the news of charges in ThirtyMile (4 years after the fact) so many of the posting are on point. I just want to add that politically, there are a number of folks in the Senate & House who have offered to address the current law.

Whether that means amending it, repealing it, holding hearings to address the unintended consequences, I don't know. As we have so often seen, agencies such as the D.A. poke their noses into environments of which they have no expertise and this is the result.

The need to address this issue & minimize the impact to the fire program and effects of the current law on firefighters has to be tempered with the respect due to the families of those lost. The Forest Service has had ample time to "educate" without interfering yet has done noting to diffuse the situation.

There must be a deliberate, well thought out plan to address this whether it be through Congress, the press etc. I am hopeful organizations such as the IAWF & others will collectively work with the FWFSA to present a united front in an effort to resolve the matter. We're certainly open to any and all ideas.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Lobotomy, If you're finding fault with part of the statement from the Forest Supervisor, it may simply be what he or she's required to say to keep the job. I think it's pretty clear that the Forest Sup thinks this is a raw deal as well. Ab.

"Since this is a legal matter in the courts, I'm sure our legal counsel would advise us not to comment on it. If you are contacted by the news media on this subject, you may wish to refer them to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Spokane...."

.... or maybe NOT.

Screw the bureaucratic legal counsel advice and crap... call Mark Morey, Night Police Reporter Phone: 509-577-7671 @ Yakima Herald-Republic or any other contacts you have....

This is a National News story that needs a local and connected group of experts commenting rather than mundane (AP) press compilations of the facts.

Use your moniker if you need to... or just say you are a WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER who is simply pissed off but must remain anonymous due to Agency B.S. and legal implications.....

Don't represent yourself as an "Agent" or "Representative" of the land management agencies if you want to use you real name..... But share your stories and your knowledge about how things are jacked up way beyond all reasoning in the ways wildland fire supervisors and managers are treated and thrown to the wolves when something goes tragically bad beyond their true control.

Ken Weaver is not to be blamed for any of this as some posters and some Press may be thinking and pondering the basis or the outcome..... We all need to step up and pay it forward.... Raise the bar.... Understand the pain the families have been going through after each bureaucratic hoop doesn't answer their questions or alleviate their personal pain and the fact wildland firefighters keep dying each year from similar events.

It is a dangerous job, it is a HRO, and someone needs to take notice someday and realize changes are needed. Somebody needs to follow and research the work of Reason, Weick, Sutcliffe, and others and present it as an expert some day.

Rogue Rivers

Fed up

It does not surprise me (anymore) how big brother is doing business. I have so many thoughts about all that is going on in Fed. Wildland Fire. Firefighter vs. forestry tech, have not seen any time frame on this issue. Portal to portal, Harbour himself said that was a joke. Kind of discouraging when you see city and county firefighters on teams and bragging about how much they are making not to mention how muck their agency is making charging the fire for overtime back home (14 days+). Professional Liability Insurance for Forestry Technicians, should it be Technicians Liability Insurance. Now the 30 mile issue. Maybe the "let it burn policy would work best. Sends chills down my spine thinking what might happen when the dust clears on the Esperanza Fire. And it goes on and on. This is not a swiss cheese issue its more like rotten cheese cloth. Thanks for all the support W.O. Fire Management!

One thing I can say is "lets show them who we really are, stick together like the family we say we are because that’s what real FIREFIGHTERS do".

To all my Sisters and Brothers, spend time with your families and a Merry Christmas and a better, prosperous New Year.

Signed: Focus on the Family

We can re-institute collection of the Legal Assistance Fund if needed. Can
someone please contact me with any info as to what kind of legal support
Ellreese has.

Community,

HR 6429 is on the President's desk. Call and/or e-mail him telling him to
sign it. Get your family and friends to do likewise: Mellie's simple solution
It's easy. Exercise your rights and the responsibilities of living in a free and
democratic society. If not us, then who?

Mellie

Thanks for contributing Q-man. Ab.

signed: Wildland Firefighter - NOT a Forestry Tech or Biologist

WOW- The US Attorney Office in Seattle should be extremely proud of themselves
this christmas- I think we should all send them a christmas email-

Shawnee Fire

Directions for all "Forestry Technicians" of The USDA Forest Service,
from FFT2 and up; you must have a Red Card.

And boy does this piss me off......

Noname

Directions I received on 2/25/05 regarding how to obtain Professional Liability Insurance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are simple instructions for obtaining Professional Liability Insurance and reimbursement from the Government for ½ the amount.

1. Make contact with an insurance company that offers Professional Liability Insurance for Federal employees and apply. Go for the 1 million dollar policy and this will give you $100,000 for legal fees Wright and Co. is one source. One provider may offer a different policy than another. Go to the attached web site for additional info.

www.wrightandco.com/Plans/liability.htm

You can also conduct a Google search and locate another provider.

2. After you have applied, are insured and have received a receipt, you may start the process for reimbursement.

3. Gather the following to build a package and process through your Business Administrative Section.

1. Copy of your Receipt from the Insurance Company.
2. Copy of a completed SF-1164. (See example)
3. Copy of the Omnibus Letter. (See attachment)

It is your responsibility to make contact with the insurance providers and ask the right questions so you have a sound understanding and are comfortable with what is provided. My intent is to provide information on this subject and I'm not directing anyone to obtain Professional Liability Insurance.

/s/ DLK

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PROFESSIONAL FEDERAL LIABILITY
Government Agencies are required to reimburse up to 50% of the premium for this plan

Imagine this...
Three IRS employees found themselves defendants in a lawsuit brought by an individual who was convicted of tax crimes. They were found guilty of leaking information regarding the investigation. The penalties ranged from $150,000 to $1,000,000 between the three of them.
and...
A federal law enforcement officer pursuing a suspect on foot, and in the line of duty, accidentally runs into an innocent bystander. The person incurred several injuries and has decided to sue for medical bills and lost wages due to missed work. (for the rest, go to the website)

Is there a book coming out on 30mile soon?
Is this stuff related to something like that?
Where is this coming from?

Todd

Seeing this stirs up all these memories again. My thoughts go out to the
rest of the fire community once again tonight.

--cm

How did this come to pass? Where's fire leadership?
Will the Forest Service legal beagles be defending Ellreese?

If not, I hate to be so blunt but my big question is:
Do Harbour and Bosworth have no balls at all?

Mellie

My apologies to Original Ab's mom for my language.
<heading to the bathroom right now with my bar of soap for a mouth washing>

There have been numerous posts here on this subject over the past years. Ab.

From the Okanogan-Wenatchee NF Forest Supervisor:

The Forest Service has been informed this morning that the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Spokane has filed a complaint with a grand jury seeking an indictment of an Okanogan and Wenatchee Forest employee. The complaint is based on actions our employee took in his role as crew boss during the Thirtymile tragedy in 2001 and for statements he made afterward. The complaint alleges four counts of involuntary manslaughter and seven of false statements. We have now begun to receive news media calls on this matter.

Since this is a legal proceeding, we are not privy to many details of charges or the reasons they came to be filed so long after the event. It is important to understand that, even if a federal grand jury issues an indictment as a result of the complaint, this is merely a finding by the jury that federal prosecutors have raised sufficient question to indicate that a formal trial and consideration of the evidence is warranted. An indictment is not a finding of guilt. Our employee is represented by a public defender. Grand jury action on the complaint is not expected until the end of January or February.

My immediate reaction to this news is a profound feeling of disappointment that it has all come to this. The announcement more than five years after the event and just days before Christmas is especially disturbing to me. Thirtymile was a tragic, extraordinary fire. Still, I have never seen any indication that anyone intentionally put firefighters at risk. Our focus since 2001 has been on improvements to make firefighters safer, including changes in training to help them better anticipate or recognize changes in fire behavior that signal the need to disengage and fall back to safe areas.

Since this is a legal matter in the courts, I’m sure our legal counsel would advise us not to comment on it. If you are contacted by the news media on this subject, you may wish to refer them to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Spokane at (509) 353-2767.

Juan, in his short life, sure created a wonderful little family.
He told Burk that he just wanted to live until his son was born...
and he did. I think his son was born on the Dec. 2nd. Juan also
has two other little ones: his oldest is just 8.

Vicki Minor

Though you might want to post? - JIMBO

follow-up note from JIMBO:
From the local Forest - Apparently what has happened is that the US
Attorney's office has filed a complaint with a grand jury seeking an
indictment of an employee.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Manslaughter charges reported in deaths of 30 Mile firefighters
The Associated Press

Spokane, Wash. -- KREM-TV reports that federal prosecutors have charged the crew boss with involuntary manslaughter for the deaths of four firefighters at the Thirty Mile Fire.

Court documents says Ellreese Daniels was in charge of the firefighters who died July tenth, 2001, in the Chewuch (CHEW'-uch) River Canyon near Winthrop.

Firefighters Tom Craven, Devin Weaver, Jessica Johnson, and Karen Fitzpatrick all died when the fire raged out of control and swept over the top of them as they deployed their fire shelters on a rocky slope.

Federal prosecutors say the crew boss was grossly negligent and his decisions caused the deaths of the firefighters.

KREM-TV also reports that prosecutors have also charged Daniels with lying to investigators. Daniels reportedly said he told the firefighters who died to move off the rocky slope and they did not follow his instructions. Prosecutors say Daniels never told the firefighters to move.

Daniels has not been arrested. He will make his first appearance in federal court in early January.

fair use disclaimer

EL

Aberdeen,

Well said, even though to the general public
it may sound morbid, you are absolutely correct.
Mountaineers and climbers (myself included) go out for
these "ordeals," simply for that, to face Mamma Nature
head on, and they and the general public should be
ready to accept the fact that sometimes mamma nature
likes to take away as well as giveth. Its a very sad
but very true fact of life, if you are going to take
risks by your own virtue, you had better be willing to
accept the consequences.

SC

Aberdeen

You're right it didn't need to be said, what if you
were lost on Mt. Hood. Would you want people to come
look for you or say no it will cost to much. The
helicopters didn't cost us a dime because all the
hours spent were written off to training which is
already budgeted for the military. 90% of the
rescuers were volunteers that do a job that they know
is dangerous. Sounds like a wildland firefighter.
Put yourself in the place of the families and then ask
yourself if the money spent is well worth it.
Personally the money we waste every year on fires is a
hell of alot more than what is being spent on Hood. I
expect comments like these from Rosie Odonell but not
you AB.

DM

For clarification's sake, Aberdeen is not an Ab. There are only two of us. Aberdeen's opinion on this is Aberdeen's opinion. We may or may not say what our opinions are. The Abs.

JS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pacific Northwest Wildfire Coordinating Group
April 07, 2005

«FirstName» «LastName»
«Company»
«Address1»
«City»,«State» «PostalCode»

The Engine Academy class has been hosted by the Pacific Northwest Training Center for the past 25 years and has been a very dynamic class to deliver and to rewrite. We have been trying to rewrite the course for the past three years.

NWCG has an approved course on the shelf which is S-231 Engine Boss. This year we had three Subject Matter Experts look at that course and compare it to the engine academy course. We found that S-231 does not have all the things we did in the engine academy course, but we found that the local unit could add foam usage, hazardous materials, GPS, hydraulics and portable pumps to the S 231 course to meet what is taught at the engine academy.

The mission of the Pacific Northwest Training Center is course delivery not course development and yes, at times, we do have reasons to develop courses like L-380 and NW Safety Officer. But when we do this we know the courses will be NWCG approved at some point and no longer be the training center’s responsibility to rewrite every five years.

At this time we have five new NWCG courses that we will have to present this year and next year that will eventually become required courses. The engine academy is not a required course. The work load at the Pacific Northwest Training Center has not decreased and only keeps increasing and we have not been able to hand down a course to the zone level for many years.

The TWT and I have visited with many people and the feedback is the zones can add to the NWCG S-231 course and present it at the zone level.

So the bottom line is the engine academy will no longer be presented by the PNW Training Center and the zones will keep presenting the S-231 course.

I want to thank everyone for the feedback they have given us over the past three months

Mike Spencer
Regional Training Officer

DP

Always remember. Ab.

Good point. It's not the president's fault the bill's not signed yet and he can't sign what he doesn't have. But in thinking about it, I'm sure he could request that it get to his desk asap so he could sign it. Ab.

Big thanks also to the Senators and Representatives for their timely attention to the matter. Their actions certainly were right on. Ab.

To those who have, or may visit the FWFSA web site, www.fwfsa.org recently:

According to our "webmaster" the Hosting company experienced some technical problems as a result of recent storms in the Northwest. As a result, some updates are taking place over the next few days and some pages from our web site may not be readily available.

In the interim, if you'd like to contact the FWFSA for any reason, please either call the business office at 208-775-4577 or email Business Manager Casey Judd at FWFSAlobby@aol.com. Once the problem is corrected we'll let folks know.

Thanks for your patience,

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association

• Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it becomes a Law, be presented to the President of the United States.

In actual practice, the Clerk, or the Secretary of the Senate when the bill originated in that body, delivers the original enrolled bill to a clerk at the White House and obtains a receipt. The fact of the delivery is then reported to the House by the Clerk. Delivery to a White House clerk has customarily been regarded as presentation to the President and as commencing the 10-day constitutional period for presidential action.

Copies of the enrolled bill usually are transmitted by the White House to the various departments interested in the subject matter so that they may advise the President on the issues surrounding the bill.

If the President approves the bill, he signs it and usually writes the word "approved" and the date. However, the Constitution requires only that the President sign it.

The bill may become law without the President's signature by virtue of the constitutional provision that if the President does not return a bill with objections within 10 days (excluding Sundays) after it has been presented to the President, it becomes law as if the President had signed it. However, if Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, it does not become law. This is known as a "pocket veto"; that is, the bill does not become law even though the President has not sent his objections to the Congress. The Congress has interpreted the President's ability to pocket veto a bill to be limited to final adjournment "sine die" of a Congress where Congress has finally prevented return by the originating House and not to interim adjournments or first session adjournments where the originating House of Congress through its agents is able to receive a veto message for subsequent reconsideration by that Congress when it reconvenes. The extent of pocket veto authority has not been definitively decided by the courts.

Notice of the signing of a bill by the President is sent by message to the House in which it originated and that House informs the other, although this action is not necessary for the act to be valid. The action is also noted in the Congressional Record.

A bill becomes law on the date of approval or passage over the President's veto, unless it expressly provides a different effective date.

Sooo, given that Congress dispenses with its own rules on a frequent basis, we'll continue to try and secure an accurate assessment of the situation. Hopefully as a result of this issue, folks will come to realize just how incredibly difficult it is to navigate congress and get things accomplished...even when a bill scoots through the House & Senate as the "tax" bill did.

Casey

Thanks Jay.

Everyone, there's still time to let the White House know our wishes. This bill should be signed asap.
Mellie's simple solution.
Ab.

Ab,

You have incorrect information posted on your Website; and as a result I am receiving a flurry of press calls. Please take the steps necessary to correct the mis-information posted on your Website.

Currently your Website indicates that December 18, 2006 was the last day for the President to sign the Firefighter bill into law. That is NOT correct. The bill, H.R. 6429, has not yet left the House Clerk's office. It is expected that the House Clerk will release the bill for the necessary signatures that are required before it reaches the President's desk as soon as Wednesday, December 20, 2006. When the bill reaches the President's desk, the President then has 10 days to sign the bill. But because the legislation has not yet reached the President's desk, the 10 rule for the President to sign a bill has not yet taken effect.

Should you have any questions or need any clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me at the telephone number listed below.

Sincerely,
Jason Vasquez
Communications Director
US Representative Mary Bono
45th Congressional District
405 Cannon HOB
Washington DC, 20515
202-225-5330 (Office)

Many thanks, Jason Vasquez. Always glad to have the correct info, especially when it means there is more time. I'm glad to hear we have at least eleven more days, maybe more, to call and email the White House with a request for signature.

We won't call your office. News folks reading here, please don't call Congresswoman Bono's office. Ab.

Dear Ab,

In 2003, two young fire fighters (Shane Heath and Jeff Allen) lost their
lives on the Cramer Fire. A "situational awareness" poster was produced in
a partnership between the Boise National Forest and the Missoula Technology
Development Center comparing the landscape of this fire with the Mann Gulch
Fire of 1949, which resulted in the death of 13 wildland fire fighters and
the South Canyon Fire of 1994 which ended the lives of 14 wildland fire
fighters. This comparison showed astounding and shocking similarities in
the landscapes and alignment of these three tragic fires. Recently the
Esperanza fire took the lives of 5 wildland fire fighters. How similar is
this deadly fire to the Mann Gulch, South Canyon, and Cramer fires?? Click
on the attached icon to view a comparison of these four killer fires. The
similarities are shocking, haunting, and leave almost nothing left to say.
Wildland fire fighters must use their situational awareness to alert them to
all of the dangers that wildland fires have, and most of all they need to
continually assess this awareness and be prepared to only take appropriate
suppression actions when it is safe to do so. We don't need to add another
picture of a fatality fire to this album of killer fires.

Idaho Fire Babe

SA Poster image including Esperanza (powerpoint download file,1848 K)

Good poster, good to remember, Idaho Fire Babe. Thanks also to Kelly Close who I think is one that is always bringing attention back to the common factors in these fatality fires.

Doug Campbell has been pointing this out for many, many years. In the last 7 years he and others have discussed repeatedly on theysaid such fire behavior factors as slope/aspect, time of day leading to solar preheating of fuels, wind vs topography-driven fire and alignment of forces (wind, slope and solar pre-heat). He's made suggestions for drawing IAP maps with alignment of forces, trigger points and making note right on the map of locations are at risk after a particular time. Maps such as this are routinely done in Spain and have saved lives when fires have blown up.

It's good to have other firefighters like Kelly Close publicizing the same information from another direction. At some point -- with the new recognition of changing climate, potentially longer drought conditions, bug-kill, potentially more frequent instances of simultaneous ignition -- perhaps a basic fire behavior training that combines Doug's training with LCES will actually be made standard for groundpounders. The need for it is overdue. Ab.

Lobotomy

Check the posts above for the correct info on the timeframe. Ab.

I've been trying to find out with no luck so far. If anyone finds out, please let us know. Ab.

Q: Why did the Three Wise Men wear Nomex?

A: Because they had come from Afar……

OK, I know, a corny joke from the south, but I couldn’t resist. In all honesty, I wanted
to send a big hug to those families and friends who have lost their loved wildland firefighters
this year, as well as those who have lost loved ones in previous years. Your losses do not
go unnoticed by the wildland fire community, we all send messages of good will to your
families.

Best wishes for a Happy Holiday to all, and for a safe New Year!

Information Diva

Haw haw on the joke. Ab.

Abs,

Seems I'm almost daily emailing you at the moment!!

The Australian Capital Territory (our DC equivalent) Coroner has released her report in to the fires of January 2003 that destroyed nearly 500 homes & killed 4 people. Anyone having trouble sleeping might want to have a read at www.courts.act.gov.au/ BushfireInquiry: Canberra Firestorm Report. But much as I hate to say it, there is at the moment another fire in a direct line to the west of Canberra that has the potential to repeat it all over again if it breaks containment lines...

OB

Thanks for the info. Ab.

Little bit of more info on Availability to Down Under that's making the rounds.......
sent out on 12/15 from Kim Christensen, Center Manager at NICC.

JS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Coordinators - Just wanted to give you an update regarding support to
Australia. They've had a little higher humidity and cooler temperatures in
the last day or two so have had some reprieve in terms of new starts. They
are engaged in the process assessing what capability they have left and
developing a strategy on specifically what they would come to us for. Per
our conference call with them this afternoon, they indicate its not a
question of if they will send a formal request, but rather when they will
have the specifics together and pull the trigger. I'll keep you
posted............ and thank you very much for getting the information
together on available personnel. If you get information from someone who
may not have seen the memo last week, please go ahead and forward it us.

Here is a link for current fire info.

www.dse.vic.gov.au/etc

• Betty and Larry and all in Idaho from Chaplin Steve who listened intently to my ramblings thank you.
• To everyone who helped organize, prepare, set up and tear down.
• To the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
• To whoever made such a beautiful tribute to E57 on this site.

All who had anything at all big or small Thank you. I have said before it bears repeating, if I had 100 years to plan what everyone did in 8 days I wouldn’t have even touched ya’ll. You kick butt. I know some are still burning midnight oil for the families. Thank you, it means so much.

Everyone here has imprinted my life forever. I wont be the same, and I’m grateful for that. Especially after spending any amount of time with Betty: to you I send love. I wish I could have captured all the moments. This woman made my children laugh and triple z smile. The children all send their love and prayers as well as these cards.

I don’t want to take up to much space or time so in closing, we love you pray for you all Thank you so very much and wish you a very Merry Christmas and a safe new year.

Brenda Zimmerman & Family (Jason McKay’s sister)

Thank You Wildland Firefighters and Wildland Firefighter Foundation card

Merry Christmas Firefighters card

Thanks for the message, Brenda. Tell the kids many thanks for the cards. They're terrific. Ab.

I am doing what I can on my end. I am also working on some back doors.
Feel free to post Afrack's letter. He is also making telephone calls.

Michael S. Williams, Deputy Director
California State Firefighters' Association, Inc.

Thanks everyone for the effort. Afrack's letter basically asks the Pres to sign the bill into law. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BLUE SHEET
Preliminary Summary Report (24 hr)

Fire Engine Rollover
Engine 3461
December 3 2006

San Luis Obispo Unit
CA-SLU-9496
Investigation Incident Number
CA-CSR-000118

This Preliminary Summary Report is intended as an aid in accident prevention, and to provide factual Information from the first 24 hours of the accident review. To that end it is published and distributed within a short time frame. Information contained within this report may be subject to revision as further investigation is conducted, and other reports and documents are received.

Synopsis
On December 3, 2006, at approximately 5:50 PM, a CDF Model 5 Engine was severely damaged during a vehicle roll over accident on State Highway 58 approximately 40 miles east of Santa Margarita in San Luis Obispo County.

Narrative
On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at approximately 5:50 PM, CDF Engine 3461 (1986, International, Model 5) was returning to its home station, Shandon #31, from a vegetation fire on the Carrisa Plain. The operator was a CDF Fire Fighter I with a valid Class B Restricted Driving permit. The Driver Trainee was supervised by a Fire Captain as the passenger in the right seat. There were no other occupants on the Engine. While traveling west on State Highway 58, west of Camatta Creek Road, Engine 3461 drifted off the roadway. The Driver Trainee attempted to correct the drive path resulting in a fishtail action turning Engine 3461 – 180 degrees and rolling in to the embankment on the south side of the highway. Engine 3461 was on its top and rolled back on to the driver’s side. No other vehicles were involved or in the vicinity when the accident occurred.

The Driver Trainee sustained minor injuries. He was transported by ambulance for treatment at Twin Cities Hospital in Templeton and released the same night. The supervisor/passenger Fire Captain was not injured. Both Driver Trainee and the Fire Captain self extricated from Engine 3461. Major damage occurred to Engine 3461.

Recommendations for immediate corrective actions

• Safe speed for prevailing conditions
• Driver/ Operator and trainer must be aware of equipment limitations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the Full Report with maps, etc:
Green Sheet Shekell Fire Engine Rollover (doc file) (72 hr report)
Engine 1763 Rollover
Vehicle Accident
December 3, 2006
Shekell Incident

CDF/Ventura County Incident #CA-VNC-003565
Accident Review Incident #CSR-114

Should President Bush fail to sign this bill that has been passed by both houses, by 4:30 Tuesday morning, it's the equivalent of him vetoing it. Will he "walk the walk"?

Cheer him on by contacting the White House by phone or email. Get your friends and relatives to do the same.

(thanks Casey and Ab for the clarification)

Mellie

Click HERE (doc file) for Mellie's simple solution.

Person of the Year: You

www.time.com/time/

Yes, you. You control the Information Age. Welcome to your world.
By Lev Grossman
Posted Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2006

The "Great Man" theory of history is usually attributed to the Scottish philosopher Thomas Carlyle, who wrote that "the history of the world is but the biography of great men." He believed that it is the few, the powerful and the famous who shape our collective destiny as a species. That theory took a serious beating this year.

To be sure, there are individuals we could blame for the many painful and disturbing things that happened in 2006. The conflict in Iraq only got bloodier and more entrenched. A vicious skirmish erupted between Israel and Lebanon. A war dragged on in Sudan. A tin-pot dictator in North Korea got the Bomb, and the President of Iran wants to go nuclear too. Meanwhile nobody fixed global warming, and Sony didn't make enough PlayStation3s.

But look at 2006 through a different lens and you'll see another story, one that isn't about conflict or great men.

It's a story about community and collaboration on a scale never seen before. It's about the cosmic compendium of knowledge.

Wikipedia and the million-channel people's network YouTube and the online metropolis MySpace.

It's about the many wresting power from the few and helping one another for nothing and how that will not only change the world, but also change the way the world changes.

The tool that makes this possible is the World Wide Web. Not the Web that Tim Berners-Lee hacked together (15 years ago, according to Wikipedia) as a way for scientists to share research. It's not even the overhyped dotcom Web of the late 1990s. The new Web is a very different thing.

It's a tool for bringing together the small contributions of millions of people and making them matter. <snip>

But it's really a revolution. <snip>

Thanks Tahoe Terrie. You all/ we all are an amazing community.
Thanks Original Ab for making real the vision. Ab.

Probe into NZ firefighters' injury - National - smh.com.au

www.smh.com.au/news/national/probe-into-nz-firefighters-injuries/2006/12/18/1166290470744.html

Bit of an update on the lads for you Abs. Interesting comment in there that up to 300 northerners might come down this way. I'm still trying to get my hands on the debrief paper done by the mob that visited in 2003 that might be a bit of an update on Dick's very good article from a US perspective. And if any of the Roosevelt Hotshots from Ft Collins are coming, can they drop me a note - need some things brought down from my Dad's & Supply Cache!!

OB

Another update from Victoria for today... (doc file, situation report)

i have fought wildfires for about 15 years with the forest service and national park service. i have been on several so-called wildfires that should have been allowed to do their thing, as well as some prescribed ones that should have been handled differently.

this last season several (wildfires) were allowed to burn lack of resources.

my question is when do we wait till we are out of people to fight fire before we start go back to the original principle of fire, and that is to clean the forest floor? yes it does cost millions to fight these so-called mega fires but if they're in remote areas, why are we even putting them out?

i agree, some areas southern california you have to put them out, but then get very active prescribed burning in these areas.

js

Battling Bushfires in the Land of Oz

Dick Mangan

Ab,

Does anyone know what happens if the President doesn't sign the bill for
the Esperanza firefighters families? Does it just become law after a certain
amount of time and money can be disbursed next year?

Tahoe Terrie

Terrie, I thought that bill would just die and the process would have to start over. Being uncertain, I called Casey:

Bottom line is if the President doesn't sign the bill into law within 10 days of close of the second congressional session, it's the equivalent of a veto. Congress would have to start over. This bill was passed just before congress adjourned. "Final passage took place in the Senate at 4:30 a.m. Saturday morning, 12/9/06." That means the President has until that time on Tuesday morning to sign it or the bill dies. No action is a veto in other words.

Since this bill involves the IRS, the President is likely to have consulted Revenue for feedback or recommendations. He may be waiting on their reply before signing.

The President has today, Sunday and Monday to sign and that's about it, the Esperanza firefighter families won't get the money this time around.

Ab Note: If this bill had been passed by both houses in the first session of Congress just before closing and the President didn't sign it then, it would become law 10 days later. The President's not signing a bill at mid-year has the opposite consequence of his not signing a bill at the end of the year. To be sure the President remembers and does the right thing, I sent in my email and made my phone call...

Click HERE (doc file) for Mellie's simple solution.

Neither Casey nor I have the answer to that. Don't even know if it requires state action, since fed trumps state law. Would every state that has a non-profit then have to pass a similar law? Anyone? Call a local legislator and ask what the process is. Ab.

Abs,

some of our Kiwi visitors have been caught in Victoria. The CFA web page has the following:

Incident at Howqua Valley
Update of incident at 2.30pm involving New Zealand Firefighters
16/12/2006

An incident occurred at the Howqua Valley, north of the Mount Terrible fires, at 2.30pm involving nine New Zealand firefighters. This is a particularly severe fire season and we continually remind everyone involved in this massive fire to be conscious above all of their own safety.

This incident involved nine very experienced firefighters, two of whom were with us in the 2003 Alpine fires. Three have been air lifted to the Alfred Hospital. They have suffered burns but all are stable and expect to be released within two to three days.

The other six are being treated locally with minor injuries and will be released in the next 24 hours.

Ewan Waller, Chief Officer of DSE said, "The safety of our firefighters is always of paramount concern, but this incident is an example of the risks that can never be completely eliminated".

"Every endeavour is made to ensure that our firefighters are not placed in situations where their safety is at risk, but bushfire fighting will always be dangerous", Ewan said.

"To date no firefighters have been seriously injured in the fires and we are concerned and dismayed at this incident, involving our colleagues from New Zealand. I would remind people to listen to their local ABC Radio for up-to-date fire information and to use the DSE and CFA websites", Ewan concluded.

Steven Pyne was on the ABC (Oz equivalent of PBS) on Friday night saying it's great fire mateship to send the overseas crews in, but nothing beats local fire behaviour. I think following on from the reposts of Dick Mangan: yes, there is significant depth in front line firefighters in the volunteer ranks, but as work is changing the world over, volunteerism is suffering. And these fires aren't about to go out in the near future. As Dick said, yes most fires run for a couple of days under the weather patterns that SE Oz gets, but nowadays its just so dry across the whole continent that where we used to have only certain parts of the country in drought which meant there could be interstate deployments, now it's all of the country that in drought & the crews are watching their own patches. As I said a while back, I certainly see the need for overhead and remote crews, and yes even AAS types (much to the chagrin of my AAS mate who has missed so much due to farming commitments..). But while lots of Aussies will take Xmas (21 Dec to 15 Jan off - we get 4wks annual leave as standard...), the fires will still run until the end of March (hopefully, with the end of the season) and there will be an exhaustion of volunteers that may even see the deployment of more wet stuff/red stuff folk; we're even beginning to see it already...But for those of you who do come, be safe, our bush was built to burn, and right now it's in ideal condition to do so....

And on a funny side note (and this goes to the friendly Aus/NZ rivalry..), I heard nth hand that one of the Kiwis when they arrived & heard the size of the Gippsland fires said that 60 hectares (148.3 acres) was a big fire to them....

And attached is a pic of some of the crew in better times doing the Maori Haka - came from the news (not my pic..)

PHOTO

cheers
OB

Yesterday Dick sent in map and comment about the current situation, in which it's clear he doesn't think these fires will go out soon. Look in the next post for that.

Thanks for writing in OB. We're concerned for you all "down there" in Aussie land. Please update us on their condition.

Maybe there will be new ways created for our volunteers with lots of fire experience to visit you to help.

Be safe. Ab.

Readers, we have a long-standing link to a conversion utility on the Links page under world.

Ab and all,

This is starting to look like the Bitterroot in August 2000.

Dick Mangan

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/oz/gippsland-complex.pdf (not large pdf file)

Minimal information at this time - however reports of six New Zealand firefighters entrapped while fighting fire in Australia. One Kiwi is reported to be hospitalized in Melbourne, AU. Pray that they and everyone involved in the firefighting efforts down there are safe and for those involved in this particular incident that they heal completely and are able to celebrate the holidays at home with their families. We may be separated by a large body of water, however our hearts are as one.

If the call does come in for resources from America to head to Australia - please be careful, this year has been a long one for all of us on both sides of the pond already!

Will post more information as I receive it.

LaDiabla72

As I read your posting, I sense that you're not real supportive about the concept of Wilderness Fire, maybe because some of those fires have become really large, and cost lots of bucks to finally contain?

Having been involved in the concept and application of Wilderness fire since the 1970's, I completely support your idea that fire managers should look at ALL wilderness fire plans using the criteria of land management goals, seasonal severity and costs. Wildernesses in California, Orygun, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona all have unique wilderness management objectives and fire conditions that require specific fire management plans under a variety of conditions to achieve their objectives.

As fire professionals, we've got to help the land managers understand the fire implications of their decisions, including the costs and potential risks to the land, firefighters and their budgets from less than full suppression at the smallest size possible.

Fire has been present on lands in the western US long before any of us in the fire management business were ever on the scene, and will continue long after our passing. Our mission as professional fire managers, in my opinion, is to be sure that the ultimate decision makers of our lands have a full understanding of fire, its role and its impacts. Then, we must implement their decisions to the best of our abilities, regardless of our personal opinions and biases.

Viejo, you ask if the best way to prevent "Mega-Fires" is just to put them out. But some of the examples you reference ("Dude", "Rodeo-Chediski", and some of the Yellowstone fires like "North Fork") were all initial attack escapes that became gobblers in spite of our best efforts.

Bottom line: you've raised some tough questions, many without easy answers. Thanks for starting the discussion.

Mollysboy

OES Presents Fire Engines to Local Fire Departments Across the State

Several fire departments across California have reason to celebrate this holiday season after recently receiving new fire engines from the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (OES). The fire departments include Fresno City Fire Department (FD), Georgetown Fire Protection District (FPD) in El Dorado County, Montecito FPD in Santa Barbara County, Oakdale City FD in Stanislaus County, Sonoma Valley Fire and Rescue Authority in Sonoma County, Susanville FD in Lassen County, Tehama County FD, Vista FPD in San Diego County, and West Stanislaus County FPD.

“Stationing OES-owned fire engines in local departments statewide is an integral and valuable component of the State’s ability to immediately respond to the needs of local governments during emergencies,” said OES Director Henry Renteria. “Local agencies benefit from having the added emergency response capability in their day-to-day operations, and the State benefits from having the resources readily available to fight major fires and disasters in the region.”

On a three-year cycle, OES presents select city and county fire departments and districts throughout California with fully equipped fire engines. These engines replace state-owned ones that had been in these departments for nearly 20 years. During this latest cycle, OES has replaced nine fire engines and will continue until they have distributed 21, at a total cost of $5.8 million.

As part of an agreement with OES, the fire departments that receive these state-of-the-art fire engines are required to dispatch personnel with these vehicles whenever ordered by OES to any emergency or disaster situation in the state. In return, the departments are allowed specified use of the engines within their daily operations. The OES fleet, which is spread throughout the state at various strategic locations, currently consists of 110 fire engines and 12 water tenders. In the 2005/06 budget, however, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger increased fire engine funding by $5 million, allowing OES to increase the number of engines to 129. These 19 additional engines, scheduled to be distributed in 2007, will further the Governor’s Blue Ribbon Commission goal of increasing the OES fleet to 250.

River

Thanks rmm, we got that news and posted it on Flu Watchout page yesterday. Ab. Let me say how much we appreciate news from the wildland network out there. It always helps to have a news release or some kind of official announcement to refer to as well. Ab.

Click HERE (doc file) to download the message I have emailed out to various friends in the fire community. Feel free to act on and send out this message to your firefighting networks and their families. Our Esperanza fire families deserve to have a fantastic Christmas without all this uncertainty.

See my message below for what I've been doing this morning. We can make a difference on this! Theysaid has a powerful voice.

Mellie

Special thanks to those who are sending their donations in asap.
Doing this in a timely fashion means our Foundation folks will get the
bookkeeping done and some time off to be with families over the
holidays. Also means it can count as a deduction on your '06
income tax.

It's a pleasure to know and work with you all!

Vicki, you're a HOOT!

On another topic --Regarding donations to families of our fallen:

It's easy to call the President's comment line (202-456-1111) and
request he sign H.R. 6429. From your personal telephone... The
person who answers may not know and will ask what that bill is
about. Just tell them:

It's about removing the IRS cap and allowing money raised for
the families of firefighters killed in Southern California to be
given to the families without penalizing the non-profits. Like
was done for families following 9/11.

If you'd rather email, do that, or do both. comments@whitehouse.gov
From your personal email account...
You can go to <what Mellie added in her PS below> and copy and paste
that message to Pres Bush. Put your name and address at the end.
Put "Please Sign H.R. 6429 immediately" in the subject line.

Calling or emailing like this has a powerful impact on a president if lots
of people do it.

Do it yourself, then ask family and friends to do it for our families
and for our Foundation.

It's easy. Exercise your rights, privileges, and responsibilities as
American citizens.

Merry Christmas everyone! May we all experience some peace
and good cheer.

Mellie

PS. UPDATE: Ab please post the email I sent to the President.
Everyone, just copy and paste and send this with the subject line that says "Please Sign H.R. 6429 immediately"

Email follows:

Please promptly sign H.R. 6429 into law.

In October, five federal firefighters were killed in the Esperanza arson fire that raged through Riverside County, California. Following that tragedy, the local United Way chapter and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, both non-profits, raised over $1 million for the families of the deceased firefighters. Unfortunately, the Los Angeles Times reported on 12/7/06 that IRS rules typically prevent 501(c)(3) organizations from raising money for specified individuals - and that the non-profits might even risk losing their tax-exempt status if they released these funds. Faced with the prospect of having to return the contributions it had raised, the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and United Way then asked the California and Idaho Congressional delegations for help.

Upon learning of this problem, the California delegation immediately introduced corrective legislation (S. 4112 and H.R. 6429), which was introduced Friday, 12/8/06. These bills were drafted to treat the Esperanza fire victims in the same way as 9/11 victims for whom contributions had been individually raised. In an act of prompt bipartisanship, H.R. 6429 passed both the House and Senate by unanimous consent before our adjournment sine die. Final passage took place in the Senate at 4:30 a.m. Saturday morning, 12/9/06.

This bill is now on your desk for consideration. Although Congress acted with unusual dispatch, the non-profit organizations still cannot release these funds to the families of the fallen firefighters until this bill becomes law. With the holidays approaching - the families' first without their loved ones - we ask to you to sign this bill into law promptly, so that the outpouring of support from various donors can finally flow to the families of these heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice.

my name
my street addy
city, state, zip

For those needing to send in your donation, please do so now to this address or call them to make a charge to your credit card:

Wildland Firefighter Foundation
2049 Airport Way
Boise, Idaho 83705
(208) 336-2996

Noname

brevity or levity??? Good to put a face on the OMB Director. Ab.

E-Mail

Please send your comments to comments@whitehouse.gov. Due to the large volume of e-mail received, the White House cannot respond to every message. For further up-to-date information on Presidential initiatives, current events, and topics of interest to you, please continue to use the White House website.

PS. Sandy and the shots gave me an Eldorado hotshot shirt, in my size, for me to wear. I put it on, felt it and I told him I didn't feel right wearing it, that I hadn't earned it. He looked at me -- all serious -- and said, "Yes Vicki, you've earned it." And I said, "No, I really want to earn this shirt" ... and they looked at each other and all started laughing (and it really hurt this old 56 year-old bird's feelings...).

haw, haw, Vicki, you are something else. Good laughing with you on the phone, too. Ab.

fair use disclaimer

I posted this request on the Flu Watchout page in more detail... as
well as here.

More than 3,400 mallards have died along a southeastern Idaho
creek (near NV & UT) in the last few days. If anyone hears of the
cause, please let me know. Right now they don't think it's birdflu,
but they haven't definitively ruled it out.

Mellie

www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/12/14/news/top/news01.txt

Arsonist pleads guilty to wildfires
By TRISTAN SCOTT of the Missoulian

Jonah Micah Warr, the 19-year-old firebug responsible for shaping western Montana's 2006 wildfire season, pleaded guilty to nine counts of arson Wednesday morning.

Warr, of Florence, appeared with his attorney, Kathleen DeSoto, in U.S. District Court in Missoula, where he faces possible penalties of 45 years in a federal penitentiary, a fine of $2.25 million and three years of supervised release.

“I find there exists clear and convincing evidence the defendant presents a serious danger to the community,” wrote U.S. Magistrate Judge Jeremiah Lynch in a brief.
Warr has been detained at the Missoula County Detention Facility on a federal hold since mid-September, when a handful of promising leads brought investigators to the teenager's family home.
<snip>

Available personnel need to provide the information in the attached excel spreadsheet form, thru established dispatch channels to NICC.

It's an Excel worksheet with columns for name, unit, agency, checkbox for whether each person named on the list has a passport, expiration date, and 4 columns to record which highest positions they're qualified to fill.

This is not an application for individuals wanting to go to Australia. It's a management tool for use by federal managers.

Ab.

Rod

Wildland Firefighting is a dangerous job with unique hazards that most of us will never see.... hopefully.

How about.. always remember and honor, and raise the bar for all of our "kids" and their families in the future? We can do it!!!!!

Just a thought

"A participant may obtain, as appropriate, the participation of its state, regional, local, private or tribal/aboriginal fire organizations in the implementation of the Arrangement, subject to its national or state laws and regulations."

Looks alot like talking heads once again not speaking the truth and covering their tracks to reduce costs and assign blame "to the agreement" rather than focus on what they are really trying to say.

Shame on them!!!

Rogue Rivers

Watch what they do, not what they say. Actions speak louder
than words. Burns was transparent and look what that got him.
Others will reveal their true "self" in whether they sign or not.
We go from there...

NorCal Tom

Ab comment: We're getting lots of questions like this and the next one... do I need to be a fed?

You do need to be a fed. This line in that NIFC announcement about sums it up...

Unfortunately at this time, current international arrangements with Australia do not provide for state or non-federal employee participation.

Almost everyone in Australia fights fire. Very few firefighters are paid. Fed fire has an agreement with the Aussies, but it only includes fed employees, and probably a limited number.

Here's a comment from Dick Mangan from 3 years ago that's posted on the FAQ page.

The Aussies have a relatively "closed society" and are able to maintain it because of the limited means of access! They don't let folks into the country just "because I want to do it". You must have a skill that the Aussies cannot fill from within their own workforce. Bushfire fighters are not in short supply: the Country Fire Authority (CFA) out of Melbourne has about 800 full-time paid employees and 65,000 volunteers; the New South Wales Rural Fire Service (RFS) headquartered in Sydney has more paid folks, but 85,000 volunteers. Their fires generally last only a day or two, except under rare conditions. No staffed fire stations, no fire camps, everyone goes home at night!

Save your money and be a tourist, but don't count on going "DownUnda" as a bushfire fighter .

Was wondering if you needed to be a fed employee to go down under. STL Quals and Helicopter quals.
Let me know. How I could help..10 yrs being a fed guy and then went contractor

RE

We now have 33 entrapment fatality fires mapped in GoogleEarth.

Attached is a jpg of the Banning area showing Esperanza, Mack 2 and Bailiff fatality sites - all within 3 miles of one another. (It's a guess of sorts for the Bailiff location, from a crude map in the Mack 2 report.)

Can someone post the link so we can discuss this?

Thanks,

JRB

Looking around on his site, it's here: www.coloradofirecamp.com/honoring-our-fallen/fatality-sites.htm

Nice work, Casey. I'm looking forward to you having some time off. Tell one or more of those FWFSA guys/gals to take over replying here while you get a break with your family. Ab.

National Interagency Fire Center
3838 S. Development Avenue
Boise, Idaho 83705
December 12, 2006

To: Geographic Area Coordinating Groups; Geographic Area Coordination Centers
From: National Multi Agency Coordinating Group
Subject: Support to Australia

Much of Australia is experiencing a very severe fire season due to ongoing drought, little rainfall during their winter and a developing El Nino (typically their worst seasons occur during an El Nino). Fire activity began earlier than normal and at a more severe level than normal so far this season. Currently, the State of Victoria has burned over 1,000,000 acres and has fully committed its firefighting resources. Victoria is requesting assistance from other Australian States and New Zealand but these states are facing similar fire suppression challenges.

Based on the current situation in Victoria the State's Department of Sustainability and Environment is seeking firefighting assistance from the U.S. At this time they are seeking assistance in the areas of mid-level supervision such as Division Group Supervisors, Task Force Leaders, Strike Team Leaders, Helicopter Operations Specialists, Helicopter Managers, and Single Engine Airtanker Managers. Type 1 and 2 Command and General Staff, and Unit Leaders may also be requested. Depending on the length and severity of their fire season, it is possible they may request some level of support from the U.S. from now into the February time frame.

Two useful websites for information on the current conditions and activities in Victoria are:
www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/nrenfoe.nsf/childdocs/-05D409B0BFBBAD5BCA256DA600074990?open
www.theage.com.au

The National MAC Group is requesting availability from the federal firefighting community. Interested individuals must have:

· A current U.S. Government official passport or a personal passport in order to be considered.
· Permission from their supervisors for a 30 day assignment plus travel.

Unfortunately at this time, current international arrangements with Australia do not provide for state or non-federal employee participation.

The arrangement with Australia does allow for reimbursement of salary. Therefore, WAE employees in non-pay status could be brought on for this deployment and not result in base 8 salary issues.

Available personnel need to provide the information in the attached excel spreadsheet form, thru established dispatch channels to NICC.

/s/ Tom Boatner
Chair, NMAC

Attachments:
1 - Australia Availability Form

Anyone wants the form, let me know. Ab.

Remember to order your FIRE Calendars from The Supply Cache. All proceeds benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Last shipping day before the holidays is Dec 19. Thanks for spearheading the benefit Jim. Ab.

I'd like to make a little clarification or testimonial on the shipping charges:

I ordered two calendars and nothing else. $5 -- Great price on the calendars, by the way. Shipping was supposed to be $2.00 for the first calendar plus $0.75 for the second one. Via automatic basket checkout, I got a message that I was charged the standard Supply Cache default for shipping or $6.50.

I want to let everyone know that in spite of this message, I was only charged $2.75 for shipping. Each order gets checked and billing to your credit card is changed manually to reflect the reduced price.

Very nice calendar! I'm going to have to order some more to give to friends!

Mellie

San Jacinto Ranger District Engine 57 Memorial Service Available for Viewing

EMMITSBURG, MD. - On October 26, 2006, five firefighters of the United States Forest Service lost their lives in the Esperanza Fire in Southern California. On November 5, 2006, thousands of firefighters from across the nation came together in Devore, California to remember the ultimate sacrifices of Mark Loutzenhiser, Jason McKay, Jess McLean, Daniel Hoover Najera and Pablo Cerda in service to their nation.

As a tribute to these firefighters, the United States Fire Administration, through its National Preparedness Network (PREPnet), has made available a 2 minute and a 20 minute remembrance video package available through Web streaming.

The memorial service is available for viewing through the links below:

U.S. Forest Service Engine 57 Memorial Service (20 Minutes)
http://www.fc-tv.com/clients/prenet/camemorial20.asx

U.S. Forest Service Engine 57 Memorial Service (2 Minutes)
www.fc-tv.com/clients/prenet/camemorial2.asx

"We are honored to be able to share the Esperanza Memorial Service with all firefighters of this great nation," said U.S. Acting Fire Administrator Charlie Dickinson. "We will never forget the sacrifices of these U.S. Forest Service firefighters of the San Jacinto Ranger District Engine 57 nor should we ever forget all of the families who have lost loved ones this year."

Readers, the full program is available via links on the Engine 57 Memorial Site page. The above versions are good to get a flavor of the service. Ab.

Thanks for the detective work and your persistence with an AAR. Ab.

MH

Please do add your mother-in-law's pledge to the pledge list. We're leaving it up until the end of the week to pick up anyone who might still want to join the group. Then the Foundation will get it.

Please send in your checks everyone. It would be nice to get most of this tallied up as paid before Christmas and certainly before the end of the tax year. This is all deductible.

Wildland Firefighter Foundation
2049 Airport Way
Boise, Idaho 83705

Ab.

Thanks for the offer. The person who asked was looking for a larger version of this photo. I'll send them the other photos in case one or more of those will do. Ab.

Thanks, the person who had questions about this last month got the information then that 100 was the default for an error. Thanks for the input everyone. Ab.

Would you please contact Ab regarding use of a higher resolution 30mile memorial photo?

Thanks, Ab.

• Intents- Russell and Suzie Case;
• Tozier’s Clerical and Fire Support- Don and Gail Tozier;
• Abel Fire Equipment- Jeff and Laurie Abel; and
• Frontline Medical- D.J.
• The North Zone Cache- Mark and
• The California Conservation Core- Kari and crews out of Auburn, also played a very big part in assisting with this event.

My Logistics Team and I set up a small version of a Base Camp/ICP to support Sandy and the El Dorado Hotshots in this very successful Wildland Fire Fighter Foundation fundraiser in-spite of the weather. I would very much like to think that these vendors, the Core, and others came only because I called but that would be a lie. They came with open arms, open warehouses, open checkbooks, open hearts and strong backs because they believe in the Wildland FireFighter Foundation and all the wildland and structure fire fighters. Please remember them this week and perhaps the next several weeks as they wash, dry, and repair all the tents, trailers, light towers, wash stations, and much, much more.

I want to give a special thanks and Christmas cheer to NorCal T-2, Mike Beckett, Mike ‘Sandy’ Sandoval, Hump, Barbara and The Eldorado Hotshots for meeting all my concerns and deadlines. This wasn’t “just” a logistics show!!

Merry Christmas and GOD bless,

Cap’n Jack, LSC (now retired)
NorCal T-2

Thanks Cap’n Jack for the good info and for your efforts. Ab.

SENATE STALLS CLASSIFICATION BILL

After watching with great pride as many of you did, the House of Representatives pass HR 5697, The Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act, the bill was sent to the Senate where it disappeared as did many other House bills sent to the Senate last Friday.

I am still trying to get some answers as to what happened. Staff from the House Government Reform Committee believe it simply didn't get to the Senate floor by the time the Senate adjourned. It does not appear there was opposition to the bill. The House staff reassured me that passing the House was no small accomplishment for our firefighters.

So, what does this all mean? According to the House, having the bill pass the House should give OPM a clear signal that it needs to get off its duff and start this process without being legislated to do so. As I have mentioned, HR 5697 was simply a mechanism to get OPM to do what it had already promised to do.

Fortunately, one of the staff who actually crafted the legislation in the House Subcommittee on The Federal Workforce & Agency Organization was a detailee from OPM. He is now back with OPM and I have placed a call to him to get some insight into OPM's thoughts on the matter.

It is extremely frustrating for me to know that so many of you watched the House proceeding last week, feeling a deep sense of pride and accomplishment then getting this news. I'll get some real answers but in the meantime keep a perspective on the positives i.e. passage by the House and the signal that sends to OPM.

This is a typical bump in the road in DC. We will persevere and get this done and I will keep everyone informed of the process. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at 208-775-4577 or cjudd@fwfsa.org.

Thanks for your patience.

Casey

From what I've heard people think good excitement will be generated by the activities at the Academy. Ab.

AV,

Check out this page: http://ncrs2.fs.fed.us/4801/dwm/methods/references/

On the links at the far northeast (upper right hand of the page)... click on one of the two links.....

Both links seem to work right now and answer your question(s)....

Lobotomy

The original reference is:
Brown, J.K. 1974. Handbook for inventorying downed woody material. USDA Forest Service Technical Report INT-16.

You may be able to find one in a University Library.

Down Woody Inventory Manual:
http://ncrs2.fs.fed.us/4801/dwm/local-resources/documents/dwm-field-manual.pdf

FC180

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lobotomy

Thanks, ht.

No advanced academies have been canceled. (Although we will be
running all three advanced academies at the same time this year! It
will be a busy month at the academy.) Academy dates can be found
at www.wfap.net/dates.html.

-Cara

-NorCal Firegirl-

I'm so glad I made the trip! I went with the intention to support the walkers and to fulfill a debt of thanks. Instead, I received gifts of the heart that are priceless. Besides the warm hugs and sharing unspoken gratitudes, I heard precious Heather stories. Valerie said that even though she didn't know Heather, she thought of her every day when she got into her engine. She said she does her job differently because of Heather. Tim told me a story of Heather laughing and smiling on her last day. He said he would have that picture of her in his mind always. For me to know that H was happy and laughing before the accident is worth all the money in the world and then some.

Thanks to all who introduced themselves and shared their thoughts with me. For a mother whose journey through grief is ongoing, hearing that Heather will be remembered always, and that her death was not for naught, is indeed priceless! And congratulations to all the walkers who emerged looking like tired, drowned rodents. I (and the Foundation) am very grateful. Soak those tired, blistered feet and see you again the next time!

Heather's Mom

Although the weather could have been more cooperative, it was a good day!
** reunite with old friends; hugs; the opportunity to match faces with familiar names; healing tears
shared with caring people; and enjoy an atmosphere of camaraderie and teamwork.

We were overjoyed to see the glorious rainbow Saturday afternoon, and later that evening see 2
local Sacramento TV stations air the events on their evening & again on late night news, and
report Congress had passed HR 6429.

Rest assured once all errant pledges are processed, the final tally will exceed the original goal.
Kudos to all who contributed to making this a huge success.

Best wishes for a happy and safe holiday season
River

Glad you could make it River. Ab.

• Rep. Mary Bono (R-CA),
• Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-CA),
• Rep. Ken Calvert (R-CA),
• Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA), and
• Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA)

for your rapid undertaking of H.R. 6429 and getting it passed and sent to the
President at the last moments of the Congressional Session.

Both the House and the Senate passed the resolution unanimously.

H.R. 6429 provides that any non-profit entity that is/was collecting funds for the
families of the E-57 fallen will not risk the loss of their 501(c)3 status; all donations a
re tax deductible; and charitable organizations will not have to perform the "charitable
needs test" as prescribed by IRS regulations. These regulations are in effect until
June 1, 2007.

Also, thanks to everyone from across the country who contacted their elected
officials and got this piece of important legislation passed on such short notice.

Respectfully,

Kenneth Kempter
Southern California Chapter Director
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association

An additional $11,784.30 was donated to the Foundation at the walk event itself and that doesn't include t-shirts. I just heard that Quintanar contributed $500 in honor of the Eldorado Shots. He says he's proud of them and the whole event effort, but not surprised at the success they've made of it.

Vicki says -- and others echo -- that the event is about so much more than the money.

I've heard from a number of people that there were lots of meaningful interactions and special moments.

• Dee met up with some Arrowhead Shots; neither knew the other would be there. Hugs and stories and sharing about Dan and the crew.
• Sylvia heard a story from a couple of shots that were on the Stanza fire that Heather was happily talking to herself and singing some time before she got into the engine that night.
• One of the family members who attended Family Day in Boise was also at this event and expressed a desire that more young firefighters getting into the business could make it to that event.
• Hugs and tears and laughter and memories of those who have passed... and sneaking around in the dark with "fortifications" for the diehard walkers. Reminds me a bit of my childhood, of kids playing hide-and-seek in the dark while the adults did whatever the adults do...
• FWFSA members disappeared for a brief time for a quick board meeting late last night...
• A young boy slept snuggled in the cab of his dad's pickup as his dad took a turn at the walking and other members of his hotshot crew -- his other family -- carefully watched over. Dad crawled in and got 2 hrs sleep before duties called him to rise this morning...
• And as Sandy said, there was a double rainbow at mile 8 that everyone walked under yesterday as the sun came out for a brief time. Some may know, but Jodi always has said she feels Shane's presence the closest when a double rainbow graces the land.

Many such healing moments occurred. A larger pattern ties us all together.

Vicki said to tell you: There were a lot of wet folks around and many more walking over the last few days. No one is dry, not the adults, the little kids or the dogs. Mold may spring up between toes and in other cracks. Some may sing "QUACK" for the next few days. Firecamp is being torn down now, following a great breakfast. Soon people will be heading home, those who haven't left already. Some few are gathering prior to plane flights and car trips, savoring the last moments of physical presence.

I heard that Toziers and other venders contributed the trailer, tents and lots of other stuff to the effort. I want to say thanks for that. Hopefully Sandy or the Foundation or someone will give us a list of who helped out so we can let the rest of the community know. It takes all of us to create and enjoy an event like this.

We will meet again...

Ab.

Ab,

And thank you “UTR” (Under the Radar). Several anomalies need to be identified with the burn over of E-57. In my opinion a 100 mph wind at a raws 8miles away cannot be linked to the tragedy. In fact how could this 100mph wind be so localized to only Beaumont? That raws is less than 1 mile off the 10 freeway. The 10 freeway thru the pass from Beaumont to Indio is a funnel of wind routinely. A 100 mile an hour wind would be caught by other raws locally. Banning Airport for example. I also would challenge the belief of this so called 100 mph wind would have made the news or have significant damage associated in The Beaumont area. So I also challenge the logic behind that the Beaumont raws only picked it up! If it is so local to Beaumont so how did it affect the fire? No locals reported this wind nor did any truckers going down the 10 freeway. Those of us that have lived in the area see 18 wheelers tipped over with half of that wind speed. In relation to fire behavior, a 100 mile an hour wind wide spread would not allow the smoke column rise to the height that it did . That this 100 mph would have been noticed is my point. I do agree that 100 mph winds can be attained within the fire environment and wind is a reactive element of the fire itself. We must wait for the experts within the investigative group utilizing all supporting factual data available to figure out this tragic event we are all touched by deeply.

Thank you,
Cowboy of Fire

Welcome to theysaid, Cowboy of Fire. Ab.

Firestorm 'like a big cat, just sitting there'
www.theage.com.au

Four guys finished the 52 miles, the last one crossing the finish line at 3:46 AM. Mike Beckett (Eldorado supt) told Melissa that there were some pretty broken up guys, what with the distance, the lack of terrain, the walking surface and the rain. Sandy did 10 miles in the middle of the night and he has a broken toe. Anyway, they made it and now at 7:30 everyone -- 25-30 people -- headed out to do the last 4 miles.

Ken Perry said walking that distance on concrete is brutal, much harder than running it and even harder than hiking up and down the same distance in wilderness conditions when you use different muscle groups. Anyway, the Shots and others learned some important things about doing long distances on flat hard surfaces.

Spirits are up this morning.

Good job, All.
Final pledge amount is $55,005.60. Feel free to keep contributing and readers please send in your donations to make good on your pledges.

Ab.

She hasn't heard for sure what transpired last night after 9 when she and Lori Greeno and others left to get some sleep, but here's what she said:

A fresh group started the 4th lap when they were leaving. A fresh group had also started the 3rd lap. It was raining to beat the band the entire time so walking was a soppy job.

The walkers probably finished sometime around 2AM except for the last 4 miles.

The plan was to finish all but 4 miles, to go back to the places of lodging, get warm, get some sleep and regroup at 7:30 to walk the last 4 miles together. They expected the last walk would take about an hour and they'd arrive at fire camp for the pancake breakfast at 9AM.

Melissa said she was in the middle of "herding cats" when I called.

Ab.

Did we loose communications?
Were they having too much fun?
Cell phones and cameras wet?
Too dark?

Hypothermia?

They might have gotten washed away...
Did anyone finish?

All joking aside, I think they're fine, but the weather was not on their side.
I'm sure it was a very long slog in the downpour.
Chinese water torture? What could be worse for firefighters???

Ab.

Thanks. Congress has done 2 things right this Lame Duck Session.

ht

www.wildlandfire.com/pics/wff-eld06/ultrawalk.htm

Walkers are on their second 12 mile loop. Melissa said they had had a huge deluge that just slacked off. Sounds like all is going well. The announcement regarding funds was just made to those who were gathered around Melissa. They were very pleased and excited that $$ could be disbursed to the Esperanza families without problems.

Ab.

Just picked this off Yahoo news at 1537 Ca. time. Looks like the families will get everything.

JRB

re Bill exempting United Way; Esperanza Families


Bill helps dead Calif. firefighters' kin
By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press WriterSat Dec 9, 2:53 PM ET

As it did for relatives of Sept. 11 victims, Congress passed legislation early Saturday to ensure the families of five firefighters killed in Southern California get more than $1 million in donations.

The legislation allows the Central County United Way in Hemet, Calif., to distribute money to the families of the U.S. Forest Service firefighters killed in an arson in October.

IRS rules prevent tax-exempt charitable organizations from raising money to benefit individuals, so the United Way risked losing its tax-exempt status if it gave out the money.

The legislation applies only to money raised to help families of the firefighters killed Oct. 26 in a wildfire near Palm Springs that consumed more than 40,000 acres.

An auto mechanic arrested in the case has pleaded not guilty to arson and murder.

Congressmen and senators representing the area rushed the bill through both chambers before the GOP-controlled Congress adjourned for the year.

"Congress can move fast when it wants, and I'm pleased that this is one of those occasions," said Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein (news, bio, voting record).

The legislation ensures United Way can give out the donations while remaining tax-exempt. It also specifies that donors can write off the donations and that recipients won't be taxed.

The same exemptions were enacted for families of victims of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, which United Way officials have said is partly why they were confused about the rules when county officials asked them to handle the donations.

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten

fair use disclaimer

Here's the first update from the 52 mile walk, as our satellite is back up. Our first walkers have just crossed the line and finished the first 12 miles. They are grabbing a burger and hotdog and getting ready for lap 2. As they approached mile 8, they crossed under a double rainbow, as the sun came out for a short time. Too cool. We will be sending more updates soon, and, happy to say that we have broken $57,000! Thanks again to everybody, and more to come...

-sandy
Eldorado IHC

The base camp is amazing, like a fire camp, but with a carnival-like atmosphere. Little kids,
balloons, Smokey Bear, dogs running around, and lots of camaraderie among all the folks.
Wish everyone could be here to feel the atmosphere of love and caring.

Without all the work and pledges of you folks, this wouldn't be the HUGE success that it
is becoming. Thanks to all......

The Fire Mamas

Everyone got off, striding on out.

They passed the 4 mile marker a while ago.

It's a bit windy and cold, but there are some breaks in the clouds, not raining hard, just drizzling or overcast. Hopefully they'll find some way to get some photos to us. They're working on it.

Ab.

Ab.

They did take off at noon. Briefing this morning said they would be keeping theysaid informed. People were excited.

How many? They were in a large herd, OA said 90-100 were registered, all appeared to be there.

The first lap (12.5 miles) the Eldorado hotshots will be in the lead.

Melissa, Burk, Vicki are there, were presented with an award of appreciation by Gary Humphrey (Eldorado NF FMO) and Mike Sandoval (Eldorado IHC Captain).

Casey, Ken Perry of course Original Ab are present; great support from SacMetro, NorCal Team II.

More details as I get them. Weather... It's started to rain a bit again, not real cold, a little wind.

Whooo hoooo!

Current Weather Conditions
Wind Speed: 7 mph
Temperature: 57
Wind Direction: SSW
Relative Humidity: 88
Overcast

Location map with weather updates: www.wrh.noaa.gov

Pledges at this time: $53,835.60

Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/oz/120906imtbound.pdf (213k pdf file)

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/oz/120906predicted-impact.pdf (423k pdf file)

Dick Mangan

Just talked with Sandy (Mike Sandoval) Eldorado IHC Captain. He said things are popping. It's raining. Everyone is getting ready. It's very busy.

Registration of walkers starts at 1000 hours. Walk starts at noon. Bracelets for walkers. They want to keep track of everyone for safety sake. He said there's good accountability.

They and a few others will be sending updates, photos, etc.

I'll be giving them updates on pledge figures throughout the walk.

Ab.

• Wonk (colloquial American English) was
  originally a 1960s slang word applied to an
  excessively studious person (equivalent to "grind" or
  "nerd"). The origins of the term are obscure. It has
  been described as a simple reversal of "know," linked
  to an obscure Old English word, and attributed to
  Royal Navy slang for a learned but inexperienced
  midshipman.
• Policy wonk, presumably from the above, is
  someone knowledgeable about and fascinated by details
  of government policy and programs.

(From Wikipedia)

Jackson

I heard the FS has sent some FBANS and Weather folks to help out with the fire meteorology and to conduct an assessment for possible future fed deployments there.

Best of luck on the 52 Walk.

AL

www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20896931-601,00.html

Firefighters brace for high-country hell
Stuart Rintoul and Padraic Murphy
December 09, 2006

IT has been the waiting time throughout Victoria. As several thousand firefighters battled blazes in the state's high country yesterday, it was with the knowledge that the weekend might bring a monster blaze to compare with Black Friday in 1939.

Much of Victoria's east and northeast was blanketed by smoke last night, with fears that blazes spreading across state forests and the Alpine National Park could merge into a roaring 100km firefront tearing across up to one-fifth of the tinder-dry state.

John Howard described the situation yesterday as "very scary", and said Victoria would get all the commonwealth assistance it needed.

"It's very, very scary stuff and the terrible combination of circumstances - high temperature, low humidity, all of those things - are very bad indeed," the Prime Minister told Southern Cross radio.

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks compared the threatening blaze to the state's worst bushfire disaster, saying: "This is going to be probably one of the worst fire periods we have seen in Victoria in the history of this state.

"Probably the only comparable time would go back to 1939, Black Friday, where we saw a similar fire activity go through the alpine area and go through to the coast as well."

The bushfires of 1939 burnt out more than 2 million hectares, destroyed entire towns and killed 71 people.

(click link to read the rest)

Keep those pledges rolling in!

Ab.

This came in for me from Sandy (eldorado shot). Thought I'd share.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Mellie.....
Thank you for the phone call. My wife enjoyed talking to you. As she said, the earrings did not make it today. She will be checking tomorrow, and when she heads down to the walk, my next door neighbor will be looking for them, and if they show she will bring them down for the raffle. Thanks again for the contribution.

I am very excited about tomorrow, it looks like we will get some rain. However, it is not going to stop us. The whole area looks so cool, like a big fire camp with a cool backdrop, as the lake is in total view. I am so proud of everybody contributing to this, I had so many phone calls once we hit our goal. Just amazing.

Well, keep in touch with us, and we have a Fire Information trailer that has satellite internet access, so we will be sending out live updates to theysaid.

Okay, off to bed. I went to sleep around 10:30, but woke up starving, so I'm looking for a snack! Didn't eat much today, didn't have time!

-sandy

This is because people like Casey fight for us and represent us. I would hope that the congresspersons and Representatives who spoke at this service are not just spitting out words when they speak in public and then going back to their positions in Washington and not supporting the bills placed before them that move our firefighters towards equal pay for equal work. In the event that they are doing this, I would hope that they decide to change their ways.

Just went over the top!!! 1856 hours. Whooo hoooo!

Ab.

About 10 years ago, someone told me it was "White House only, no knowledge."

Willie, broke the crank on the mandolin when I was in MSO. Have chosen the
path of fewer strings.

Wheel

We've been working the phones this afternoon trying to nudge the Eldo walk
towards the line, and it's really weird 'cause i feel like Jerry Garcia... Peace to
us all and to all a goodnight. Pray for good walking weather- it's gettin' a bit
stormy out there...

willy

GIS girl, We've got $51,180 out of $52,000! WOW only 16 more people! I think I'm gonna have to bust-a-coldie! Cheers! Ab.

And look at the Pledge List! Closing in on the goal!!! Over $50,000 pledged! Need only 26 more people pledging at least $1 a mile.

(Gawd, I feel like Jerry Lewis.)

Ab.

Mellie

Wikipedia on Wonk Ab.

HAW HAW you young whipper snapper. We Abs got some salt in our drawers too. Just check 'em with a salinity tester kit. WO wonks know better than to suggest anything to us, but individually many of them are nice people whose drawers definitely DO NOT stand up alone. Ab.

BeenThere

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donations for 5 fallen firefighters hit a snag: IRS
United Way chapter in Riverside County finds it can't give the money -- more than $1 million -- to such a small and specific group as the families. Officials are trying to get around the rules.
By Maeve Reston, Times Staff Writer
December 7, 2006

In their haste to set up a fund for families of the five federal firefighters killed in a Riverside County arson fire in October, officials from the county and a local charity overlooked one major detail that has kept them from writing checks: IRS tax law.

After the five men of U.S. Forest Service Engine 57 were killed in a burn-over near Twin Pines on Oct. 26, the Riverside Board of Supervisors asked the Central County United Way in Hemet to handle the donations that were pouring in.

But neither the county supervisors nor officials at the United Way consulted tax attorneys, in part because they had never expected to receive more than a million dollars in donations.

When Central County United Way's chairman, Bob Duistermars, made a cautionary call to the Internal Revenue Service after the fund hit the half-million mark, he was stunned to learn that tax-exempt charitable organizations cannot raise money for a group as small and specific as the families of the five firefighters. Doing so could jeopardize the organization's tax-exempt status, particularly if it parceled out the money without first documenting the financial needs of each family.

"A lot of this probably has do with our ignorance about the process," Duistermars said. "We were all moved by the fact that we had lost friends and family; now we just need to catch up with the law."

Duistermars said much of his confusion stemmed from the fact that Congress had passed a special law exempting the families of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks from most of those IRS regulations.

Riverside County Supervisor Marion Ashley, whose district encompasses much of the area burned by the wildfire, known as the Esperanza fire, said he was outraged when he learned about the tax-law complications.

"This was a spontaneous effort - there wasn't time to go to a bunch of tax attorneys and CPAs," Ashley said. "We feel like the IRS is the Grinch that stole Christmas."

On Wednesday, an IRS spokesman said he could not comment on the specific case but said the IRS has clear restrictions on how financial aid can be provided by tax-exempt charitable organizations such as the United Way, which is classified as a 501 (c)(3) group.

Under federal law, such groups can give money to a group of individuals only if those individuals or families are part of a broader class that is "large and indefinite" and if giving the money ultimately benefits the community - as was the case for money raised for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

The IRS guidelines state that a charitable group "cannot target and limit its assistance to specific individuals" and that donors cannot earmark contributions to a charitable organization for an individual or family.

"The group of beneficiaries has to be open-ended," said Marcus Owens, a Washington, D.C., tax attorney who used to oversee tax-exempt organizations at the IRS and specializes in the laws governing those groups.

To say, "We're going to raise money to help those five families - it's not an open-ended class," he said. "It's an appealing and appropriate cause, but there were missteps" in setting up the fund.

Owens said that the IRS and the state attorney general's office, which also oversees the activities of 501 (c)(3) groups, prefer charities "to describe the purposes so that no donor is potentially misled into thinking their $10 is going to help those families."

Owens said one way the Central County United Way could remedy the situation is to redefine the purpose of the fund so the money is available, for example, not just for the families of the five firefighters, but for families of fallen firefighters in the future.

But both Duistermars and Ashley balked at that idea.

"We're not willing to stand for that," Ashley said.

"This money was raised on the premise that these firefighters families would get the money."

Members of the Board of Supervisors have appealed to California's congressional delegation asking for special legislation to allow the money to be specifically designated to the five families.

Duistermars said expanding the fund's reach would be "a last resort" but that his organization intends to work within the guidelines set by the IRS and follow the law.

If the fund is broadened, the United Way chapter will allow donors to get their money back, he said.

Duistermars said he was also deeply troubled that IRS regulations ask charitable organizations to determine the "need" of each family receiving assistance, which he considers an invasion of their privacy.

Pat Boss, the retired U.S. Forest Service spokesman who has been speaking on behalf of slain Fire Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser, agreed. "To go to the families and say 'What is your need?' - I don't think it's right," Boss said.

"This money was collected on their behalf, not on what their needs are.... How do you put a value of someone's life?"

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation, a tax-exempt charitable organization based in Boise, Idaho, has received more than $250,000 since the Esperanza fire and has already directed about $80,000 to the families of the five firefighters. The organization is also struggling through the IRS guidelines.

But the organization's executive director, Vicki Minor, noted that her organization never solicited funds specifically for the Esperanza firefighters; the money just poured in, she said.

"This is the largest amount we have had come in for a fire," she said. "We didn't solicit it, but it has come in earmarked for that, and I just want to make sure that this money gets right where it's supposed to go and everyone's clean on it."

Give a call to some of your equipment suppliers and ask them to kick in a bit. It's nice to see a few of them showing up on the list. Ab.

You got it on the MN Pack Test. Ab.

Very good news regarding Lotzi's Home Rebuild!
Could you please post this for me? Thank you!

Lisa D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Help for hero's widow
Building project left undone by death will be finished
Guy McCarthy, Staff Writer
San Bernardino County Sun
Article Launched:12/07/2006 12:00:00 AM PST

IDYLLWILD - U.S. Forest Service Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser was still working to complete an expansion on his family's home when he was killed while trying save another home from the Esperanza Fire six weeks ago.

Now, volunteers are pitching in to help complete his work by rebuilding the home for Loutzenhiser's widow and children.
"It's a statement for all the firefighters who died and the guys who are alive," volunteer Mary Zimmerman, 59, said during a break from working on the home Wednesday morning.

"To send a message to them that we will take care of their families if something happens to them," Zimmerman said. "They take care of us, so we'll take care of them."

Loutzenhiser, 43, commander of the five-man crew of Engine 57, died trying to protect a Twin Pines home from the fire.
Maria Loutzenhiser, 38, and four of their five children are living in a rental near the home that volunteers and Habitat for Humanity are rebuilding on Middle Ridge Drive.

"Maria and the family are overwhelmed with all the love and support and donations that are coming in," said Pat Boss, 63, a retired Forest Service firefighter and close friend of the Loutzenhisers.

"The kids are having a hard time with their dad being gone and the holidays coming," Boss said. The twin boys are 8 years old, and the girls are 11 and 17. "We hope to get this finished by mid-February."

(to read intervening info, click the link)
The rebuild may cost as much as $150,000, Boss said. Donations may be sent to Habitat for Humanity Loutzenhiser Building Acct., P.O. Box 1743, Idyllwild, CA 92549. Volunteers can contact Gilden at (951) 659-2678

Feelings are normal, hugs often help. Main thing is, none of us is alone in this event. Ab.

Glad you're going to be there Sylvia. Those shots were awesome in that situation. Always amazes me how connected we all are, by success, by tragedy, by common experiences. I hope as many as possible make it to the 52 walk with families and friends. Travel safe. Ab.

What I was talking about was some people trying to use then in areas where fuel had been spilled, Propane tanks blowing safety disc, underground tanks located etc. My professional opinion is they are not safe in a fuel or other explosive vapor atmosphere area. That's all I was trying to say.

Just being safety oriented. Use in the wildland, don't use around structures, vehicles, fuel spills etc.
Nuff said, Robert you understand.

Please everyone understand, for wildland, not structure, or any other hazardous atmosphere.

ht

Ab and firefighters,

I will use all of this- Thanks! It is a help.

MR

I read Kennedy's book. Wildfire and Americans: How to Save Lives,
Property and Your Tax Dollars

It is a good read. It gives a pretty good history on how we got where
we are today dealing with the wildland urban interface.

7107

Thanks 7107. I added your comments to the Book Reviews page. Ab.

"To fulfill the training requirements of the NIC, all
individuals (including AD hires) qualified for
incident response or support must complete additional
training. All first responders (anyone with an
Incident Qualification Card) must complete “National
Incident Management System (NIMS), An Introduction”
(IS-700). All middle/upper level managers which
includes Strike Team/Task Force Leaders and above,
Unit Leaders and above, Command and General Staff
members, MAC Group Staff, and Dispatch/Coordination
Center Managers must complete “National Response Plan
(NRP), An Introduction” (IS-800)."

From what I have taken from my reading, the NRP has
re-created NICC with more layers of bureaucracy and
the potential for a lot of political appointees.

And There I Was

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

File Code: 5100-3
Date: October 6, 2006
Subject: All Hazards Training Requirements
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff

The President issued Homeland Security Presidential Directive No. 5 (HSPD-5) in 2003. One of the primary intentions of HSPD-5 is “to prevcnt, prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies, the United States Government shall establish a single, comprehensive approach to domestic incident management.” In response to HSPD-5, the Department of Homeland Security initiated the National Incident Management System (NIMS) and the NIMS Integration Center (NIC) to better prepare for, respond to, and recover from All-Hazards incidents.

The obligation to remain a willing partner on All-Hazards response was reinforced in the letter signed by the Chief on May 31, 2006. To fulfill the training requirements of the NIC, all individuals (including AD hires) qualified for incident response or support must complete additional training. All first responders (anyone with an Incident Qualification Card) must complete “National Incident Management System (NIMS), An Introduction” (IS-700). All middle/upper level managers which includes Strike Team/Task Force Leaders and above, Unit Leaders and above, Command and General Staff members, MAC Group Staff, and Dispatch/Coordination Center Managers must complete “National Response Plan (NRP), An Introduction” (IS-800). Each course can take up to four hours.

The IS-700 and IS-800 courses are at the following providers:

• AgLearn – On-line (Password protected site and may require you to submit a Social Security Number) at http://www.aglearn.usda.gov/
• AgLearn – Download course materials for local presentation (Password protected site) at http://www.aglearn.usda.gov/
• Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) – Emergency Management Institute (EMI) – On-line or downloadable at http://training.fema.gov/emiweb/IS/is700.asp and/or http://training.fema.gov/emiweb/IS/is800.asp

Forest Service – Materials for an updated and approved IS-700 will be provided to local course coordinators by their Regional Training Officer.

The NIC has also established Incident Command System course requirements (I-100, I-200, etc.), but the NIC standards are equivalent to or lower than the “I” courses criteria outlined in FSH 5109.17, therefore no additional “I” courses should be necessary.

Certificates of completion may be issued automatically on-line or by mail for a downloaded “hard-copy” course. A copy of the certificate should be provided to the appropriate certifying official and/or Incident Qualification System (IQCS) administrator.

Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs 2 and WO Staff

All affected employees shall complete the applicable training requirement(s) by June 1, 2007.

Contact Jim Barnett, Branch Chief, Fire Training at 208-387-5350 or Steve Gage, Emergency Management Specialist at 202-205-1558.

/s/ James E. Hubbard
Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry

H.R. 5697
The Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act

It is an incredibly proud honor to report that minutes ago the House of Representatives passed HR 5697. With speakers from both the Majority & Minority, outlining the need for the legislation, referencing the FWFSA and the all-risk duties our federal wildland firefighters perform, it is my hope that those who persevered through the nuttiness of the movement of the bill earlier in the day and watched this historical action have a greater sense of pride in who they are and what they do.

The bill will now be sent to the Senate and I have been actively working with staff from several offices of the majority & minority leaders from the Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee to ensure the bill receives similar action in the Senate.

My sincerest gratitude to all of our Nation's federal wildland firefighters for their patience through this process. There is still much work to do to ensure the standards, position descriptions, etc., are accurately crafted and reflective of the proud work you do but the FWFSA will do whatever it takes to make sure OPM does this right. Should you have any questions, please free to contact me at 208-775-4577 or cjudd@fwfsa.org.

Respectfully,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Mellie

Here is the last update for the walk on our website. We will still be answering emails, so feel free to contact us with any questions. I have added links for directions to Nimbus Flat, the location of ICP, as well as weather for the weekend, as we may get some showers. Reminder: bring a poncho or rain gear, and if you are walking at night, a headlamp or flashlight. We will also be making T-shirts at the event.

We are doing great with our pledges, almost there! Thanks to everybody for their generosity, and it will be great to see everybody this weekend.

Once again, thanks for all that you are doing.

-sandy

www.eldoradohotshots.org/52milewalk.html

We're all ready for a GREAT time everyone. Carry on.

Congrats Casey. Wildland Firefighters are now one foot closer to walking as firefighters. Ab.

But before I discuss that subject, I would like to reaffirm your observations regarding "The Doctrine".

Ever since I first read about "The Doctrine", I could not keep my 30 years in wildland fire management from making me feel uncomfortable with what appeared to be a whole lot of snakeoil in a shiny new bottle. I have always welcomed new ideas and appreciate those brave civil servants who think outside the box. However my 30 years have taught me as much about people and their interactions within large organizations as it has about the art and science of wildfires. As a preamble to "The Doctrine", I would like to add "Mr. Crusty Drawers' Contextual Interpretations on the next Big Thing".

It goes something like this:

-Beware of new initiatives formed within the vacuum of one agency culture. Assumptions and expectations forged by decades of cultural reinforcement are harder to get beyond without being able to freely question the basic belief system of that culture as viewed from outside of it.

-Beware of agency career climbers who have the position, know the jargon but lack the fundamental vision to ask the right questions.

-Beware of the agency turf minders, they are the self appointed protectors of the exclusive, imaginary secret agency handshake. They are the poison which ensures our failure and the potential for our death during tactical operations.

-Beware of those who lack a demonstrated respect for fire on the landscape and the family of wildland fire professionals who manage it. Those who lack that respect will sacrifice people for buildings and forget the cost when the hills turn to green once again.

James Reason is right- we live the consequences of our personal/organizational shortcomings.

Now back to the elephant in the room which Miserywhip mentioned in his piece. I refer to it as the Big Government vs. Big Business debate -or as those in talk radio would say- Tyranny vs. Freedom. It is the most fundamental issue of our time and I believe that the problems that face us as fire professionals and as a nation will not be effectively dealt with until we come to grips with the fundamental role of government in providing for what the Constitution refers to as the "General Welfare" of the people. In the end we will have to put our ultimate trust in one of these powers. If we are to believe the republicans- we as civil servants cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

To these jaded politicians, only greed and the almighty dollar can be trusted. If one were to ask an Iraqi citizen these days about the value of an effective civil service you would probably get a different answer than those getting spun by millionaires on corporate TV. Personally if the people of the US told me that I wasn't needed, and to lay down my shovel and go home- I would find a job that was a lot easier on the knees. If government is deemed as not necessary for the "General Welfare", then lets pocket the money and throw a party. The time has come to call BS on those ideologue politicians who seek to discredit us, while stacking the deck against us.

Miserywhip missed the dates but I applaud his recollection of the political rhetoric spewed by the republicans during those heady days before the Timmy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing scared the begeebers out of all those flag waving patriots bent on taking down big government before we all became surfs of the state.

About 13 years before McVeigh allowed us to look into the abyss (that results when basic governance is left to those who don't even believe in the notion), President Reagan informed us that "government was the problem". A statement which was hard not to take personally, especially if you happened to be charged with carrying out government work.

I was always amused throughout the republican years by those poor souls within the agencies who weren't real savvy when it came to politics. Those who could not figure out why they couldn't get anything done. They didn't understand that they were never supposed to get anything done, in fact they were supposed to fail. Like the whole notion of making government smaller or balancing the budget. The republican leadership never intended to do either. The budget was supposed to balloon out of control so as to provide the incentive for the draconian cuts envisioned for the future. Government as a whole never got smaller- only the parts of it that were deemed a hindrance to big business (like regulatory agencies).

The Clinton/Gore years brought back a measure of rationality to governance. The ideologues crawled back under their respective rocks and the President and Congress chose wildland fire as one of the major priorities of the nation. The National Fire Plan was passed and we were on our way toward a rational strategy for dealing with fuels and the dwindling population of experienced firefighters who would be charged with taking us into the 21st century. As 9/11, Katrina and megafires came along, it became apparent that wildland fire professionals possessed skills that were vital to the national security of the nation. Skills that were just as vital to the nation back when President Reagan deemed us as "The problem".

We do indeed live the consequences of our personal/organizational shortcomings -just as we live the consequences of our nation's political shortcomings, the misguided perceptions of those we elect and the illusions of our own personal mythology.

Mr. C. Drawers

Go to Ruffian and have them build you a pack that specifically meets your
needs. I have been using the same line gear for almost 9 years now. The
only thing I have had done was to have it retrofitted for the new size
shelter.

FMO Joeboy

You're welcome. Ab.

That website is a good resource. We did rearrange the header here to focus on the WFF and E-57 families. Link to flutrackers.com is on the Birdflu Watchout page. Oh, I see the link to the page disappeared entirely... We'll replace the link to it at the top of theysaid after the 52 Ultra-Walk. Ab.

If you have access to C-Span, you should turn it on. Interesting things happening in congress in the next few hours that affect federal wildland firefighters.

Ab.

• Why have Forest Service fire management budgets been on a steady decline despite recent years of record fire seasons and acreage burned?
• Why did R5 (and other regions) have large numbers of federal engines parked and federal crews left unfunded this summer?
• Why do mid-level federal wildland fire supervisors feel compelled to carry liability insurance?
• Why are so many fire resource orders going unfilled for long periods during busy fire seasons?
• Why are critical functions of the Forest Service being outsourced or left unfunded?
• Why are significant numbers of burnovers and vehicle accidents still occurring on wildland fires?
• Why are significant numbers of Forest Service employees leaving wildland fire positions for wildland fire management jobs with other agencies?

There is a common thread between all of these questions. They all lead to a cold wind that blew in with the so called “Republican Revolution” in the 90s, and was continued and accelerated under Bush, working in concert with an all-Republican Congress.

The underlying problem I’m referring to is this foul anti-government attitude that the fed land management agencies have suffered under for the past decade. The Republicans haven’t been shy about proclaiming their desire to “shrink government” and “eliminate excessive regulation.” This is, of course, merely a smokescreen to cover what they are really trying to achieve; an enfeeblement of regulatory agencies that prevent powerful and influential interests (oil, mining, logging, etc) from exercising their will on public lands.

I am cautiously optimistic that with Democrats now holding both houses of Congress, better days may be ahead. I hope they realize the damage their cohorts across the aisle have inflicted on our land management agencies and wildland fire organizations, and move swiftly to put things on a more logical and sustainable course.

There are four things this Congress could do to help put things right. Start by rescinding PL 107-203. Next retire the misguided A-76 outsourcing initiative. Then fund the land management agencies wildland firefighting organizations at 100% MEL level or better. And finally, start treating federal wildland firefighters like valued and respected citizens who are of immeasurable value to our republic instead of like some useless wasteful vermin that must be stomped out.

So, Domaque, in my weird rambling style, what I’m getting at is that I would advise you to not intentionally violate any policy just yet unless you clearly understand the ramifications. As a culture, we are straddling a fence right now, one foot rooted firmly in the past and one tentatively stepping into the future. But in spite of everything we have been subjected to in recent years, the United States Forest Service is still here, we are still vital, and some of us will outlast this current unpleasantness. Better times are coming.

Misery Whip

Misery Whip, this is what I said when I removed the link:

Ab removed the link to this. It was meant only for internal circulation and will likely be changed this week. We'll post the final version when it's available.

No one asked us to take it down. We did it as a courtesy. Since the group was meeting last week to review/revise it, it made sense to wait for the best final product. Today I got someone to call to find the status for the official final copy and was told Forest Leadership meets next week to review the changes the last group made and then it goes to the design person who makes the actual pdf product changes. As you know, meetings and changes take time, especially during late November/December. Our "pulling the link" has nothing to do with the information being dangerous -- beyond the danger inherent in the time it takes to complete any bureaucratic process. As far as having to do with where we are as a culture, well yes, I hope we Abs do err on the side of courtesy when push comes to shove and good things are in the works.

Glad you're staying on top of all of it...
Have a cup of eggnog! Cheers. Ab.

Thanks

-Brooke

Mellie says she's been busy. She says it's still coming and she'll do an update soon. Ab.

"Former Hotshot" stated that you should "ask a current hotshot" about Fire
Finders, so you're getting an answer from a 20+-year Hotshot and current
Superintendent...........

I agree with Waiting For Snow's comments about the Dyn-optics Fire Finders
and hope that the other posts don't discourage you from purchasing one; my
crew runs 3 - one for each squad. Like WFS said, they are most effective in
desert and brush fuel types, and speed up cold trailing in those fuel types
exponentially vs. hand-feeling. Often, line isn't even needed in the
desert, and IMTs can sometimes be convinced of that if you tell them that
you will confirm your cold trail with a Fire Finder.

SRJS is correct in stating that "...the best tools we have are what god
gave us: hands, eyes, and nose", and I also agree that you can tell which
areas are going to be hot by using your senses, but after reading some of
the posts, it seems some people are incorrectly using the Fire Finder. The
Fire Finder should not be used as a replacement for hand-feeling during
mop-up, and I don't let my crew use them during initial mop-up. I do
encourage each squad to use them to confirm that they are done with an area
(after hand-feeling that area). However, mop-up should not be their primary
function; like I said, they really shine cold trailing out in the desert.
Also, like with any tool, users should be properly trained on how to use
the Fire Finder, especially when to use them.

As far as durability, they will break if improperly handled or stored;
Dyn-Optics provides a foam-padded case that provides plenty of protection
for the units when they're riding around in the buggies or supt. truck-
they shouldn't be stored in packs. I have also found that Dyn-Optics will
repair most of their units free of charge (as long as they weren't abused).

(As a side note to "ht" about the Fire Finders' military spec- The Fire
Finders are an offshoot of a military contract Dyn-Optics had years ago to
develop a heat-seeking system for a missile (I forget which one). The owner
saw uses for this technology in other fields, especially in ours, so he
developed the Fire Finder. Talking with him about 10 years ago, he told me
that he doesn't actually make any money off of the Fire Finders; Dyn-Optics
does that through their military contracts.)

With proper training, the Fire Finder is an excellent tool that should be
in any crew's complement because it greatly increase production in certain
circumstances.

If anybody out there has any more questions about the Fire Finder or would
like to debate their use, feel free to contact me.
Ab- please sign my real name

Robert Holt
Redding IHC

Hey Ab,

I'm proud to inform you that the Palms Springs Field Office of the BLM CA Desert District received a wildland fire safety award for their cooperative efforts with CDF in hazardous fuels reduction surrounding Poppet Flat during last night's national fire management officers banquet, . Their projects helped to divert the Esperanza Fire around the community and enabled the residents to safely shelter in place. See attached accomplishment report. Congratulations to Kristen, James, Chuck and Tim!

Fire Geek

Esperanza Fire vs Poppet Rx 494 K pdf file

Todd

Is public policy pouring fuel on wildfires?
www.latimes.com/news
By Tim Reiterman, Times Staff Writer
November 14, 2006

When 14 firefighters died in a wind-fanned inferno near Glenwood Springs, Colo., in 1994, Roger G. Kennedy was struck by the senselessness of the tragedy.

"They were not fighting to protect an ecosystem or even a railroad or a highway," he recalled. "Those people went to their death protecting a real estate development."

Kennedy, National Park Service director under President Clinton for four years in the 1990s, is the author of a new book, "Wildfire and Americans: How to Save Lives, Property and Your Tax Dollars," that contends that government policies have placed millions of residents in the path of wildfires.

Southern California has recently experienced two severe wildfires. The Day fire, which started on Memorial Day, burned more than 600,000 acres in the Los Padres and Angeles national forests and took a month to contain. Then the Esperanza fire destroyed property and killed five firefighters in Riverside County. Are America's firefighting resources adequate?

The U.S. Forest Service and the National Park Service are essentially the national fire department, drawing people from other activities they are supposed to carry on.. The Forest Service budget is systematically distorted by more than $1 billion a year to accommodate the fact, which is stupid.. The equipment tends to be obsolete; air tankers [owned by contractors] get old. The planes used would never be permitted in combat.. People are sent to the fire lines who are not always as well trained as they should be, because it is not the primary thing they do. It is very heroic but wrong.. This is like fighting in Iraq with the National Guard and no regulars.

Are you suggesting that firefighting efforts should be year-round rather than concentrated in the summer-fall fire season?

Yes. It is crazy not to have a national firefighting force that is in the business of going where people already are and protecting them better through prescribed burning and thinning.. We do not require that municipalities have fire-wise ordinances saying that if you do not clean up your place so it is safe from spread of fire, it's a violation and should be a criminal violation because some are going to die.. We send the feds in to rescue people from circumstances where a neighbor fails to do his duty and leaves his place full of tinder and brush. It is nutty.

You assert that in the largest sense, wildfire is a people problem, not a fire problem, because society has encouraged settlement in highly flammable terrain. Please explain.

In California, more than 50% of the houses built in the last 10 years were built in fire-imperiled places.. This is a dynamic situation which is getting worse every day because more people are coming in and because the climate is changing. Fires are getting bigger and more frequent. But we built the roads and supplied mortgages and infrastructure to people who had every reason to expect that we were going to provide a fire department, as we do in the cities. Those expectations have been disgracefully betrayed. We do not provide adequate fire protection, and we don't provide adequate fire hazard diminution by professional people year round. So we have to stop encouraging people going into these very dangerous places.

Other than population pressures, what historically has driven the dispersion of urban dwellers to suburbs and rural areas?

When we came out of the second World War, the images in our minds were of urban fire - Dresden, London, Rotterdam, Belgrade.. We knew all about bombing. We were conscious of the danger of Soviets or others bombing our cities, and the big lesson of the war was bust up the cities because they are targets for the Soviets. The Cold War provided every one of the major policies carried on to disperse the major cities.

Which policies drove this dispersal from the cities?

The panoply includes federally insured mortgages issued whether the houses were in a dangerous place or not. There was no attention - in fact there is very little attention today - as to how risky the location was going to be. There was no attention given as to whether the highways and feeder roads that we paid for would dump people out in safe or dangerous places. No attention was given to natural systems and dangers.. It is just in the past 10 years that we are paying any attention.

You contend that President Bush's Healthy Forests Initiative for thinning and logging of national forests to reduce fire danger is seriously flawed. What are your concerns?

Promiscuous recommendations for logging overlook the historic fact that killer fires in this country's experience have all been after logging . in the slash of post-logging operations. Any program that says to go out and log and turns to the lumber companies like that again is crazy. Now, is it going to be important to thin forests on the run-up to settled places and on the fringes of villages? Absolutely, and there needs to be a lot of prescribed burning around the edges of communities.. But lumbering where the commercial timber is - in remoter places - does nothing to protect people.

How does society discourage development from going deeper into fire-prone areas?

If you are a farmer and don't behave, you don't get a farm subsidy. That is the way it should work in development. If you don't conduct yourself in ways that provide for the safety of the people you persuade to settle, you won't get the subsidies. We won't build roads to you. We won't build power lines to you. We won't insure your mortgages. And we won't permit the people you sell to deduct the interest on their mortgages. That would do quite a lot right there.

What happens to the existing structures in areas susceptible to wildfire?

You have to do the best you can for the people that are in them. I don't think anybody would seriously say we're going to let them burn up. But we do a terrible job of forcing communities and developers to plan properly to permit people safe exit.. We treat canyon communities as if they were islands in the Gulf. In one case, you can't escape the hurricane, and in the other case, you can't escape the fire.

fair use disclaimer

Book by Kennedy available at Amazon: Wildfire and Americans: How to Save Lives, Property and Your Tax Dollars
I added it to the Fire Books page. When someone reads it, please send in a review and I'll post it. Ab.

-The Brush Coat Medic

Dear Abs:

Thought I would share the following response I received from my congressman here in MN. Also please let me know if there is anything that I can do to help put the pressure on the powers that be to ensure that no other family has to go through what we have went through in the last few weeks. I have been a community activist here for many years and am very capable of holding my own in the political realm if I need to. So please feel free to let me know if there is anything that I can do or people I can contact to help make it safer for all those firefighters out there. Personally I feel I have to do something and if advocacy is what is needed then count me in. It is very important to me to feel that something positive comes out of this tragedy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Kim:

Thank you for sharing with me your thoughts regarding wildland firefighters. Again, I offer my condolences to you for your loss. Your brother's death is even more tragic in light of the discovery that the deadly wildfire was caused by arson.

I appreciate your advocacy on behalf of federal wildland firefighters. Federal foresters estimate that an astounding 190 million acres of land managed by the Secretary of Agriculture and the Secretary of Interior are at unnatural risk of developing into catastrophic wildfires. Those brave firefighters who work long, dangerous hours suppressing fires and protecting federal land provide a tremendously important public service.

The Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005 (H.R. 408) was introduced by Congressman Richard Pombo on January 26, 2005. This bill would require that wildland firefighters employed by the Department of Agriculture or the Department of the Interior be paid for the entire period of time that firefighters are away from their assigned duty station when dispatched to an emergency incident. It would also treat wildland firefighter compensation received pursuant to this act as basic pay for federal retirement pay purposes. The Bush administration strongly opposes H.R. 408.

Congressman Pombo also introduced the Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act (H.R. 5697) on June 28, 2006. This bill would direct the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) to reclassify federal wildland firefighters to more accurately reflect their current duties.

Although it is unlikely that the full House of Representatives will consider these bills prior the adjournment of the 109th Congress, I am hopeful that the 110th Congress will consider this important legislation.

If you would like to receive periodic e-mail updates on issues before Congress, please visit my Web site, www.house.gov/oberstar, and go to "subscribe."

With best wishes.
Sincerely,
James L. Oberstar, M.C.

Thanks, Kim. We'll keep you in the loop. Ab.

Regarding MR's request for info...having been an EMS
director on a small town/rural fire department which
was somewhat reluctant to combine EMS and fire. I
found that the most important feature in making sure
BSI got used was to make it easy...we set it up so
that every fire fighter had his/her shroud in the
right thigh pocket of his/her bunkers, with a pair of
latex gloves under that. The left thigh pocket had a
pair of lineman's pliers, a roll of 3 mm cord, a small
flashlight, and a pocket knife, something easy to open
with gloved hands. I usually carried a PowerBar and
some Atomic warheads (the really sour lemon candy)
too, but that's because I'm always hungry and warheads
take the taste of smoke, mud, or foam out of your
mouth nicely. Extrication gloves went in the left coat
pocket, and structure gloves went in the right coat
pocket. A back up set of gloves went in an inside coat
pocket. So every fire fighter had gloves on their
person, anytime they were in gear. Part of the after
action review was cleaning out your pockets, making
sure you were re-organized, and replenishing if
necessary. I've been told by guys from bigger muni
departments that if you take a lot of flame, and go in
on lots of fire, this doesn't work because the stuff
in your pockets causes hot spots and can melt into
your bunkers. For small rural departments, where we'll
do interior attack maybe a few times a year, this
works really well.

We also made sure that gloves were everywhere, within
easy reach of every seat in every unit. For me,
getting gloves on was part of my mental preparation
ritual for every call...the page would go off, I'd
head for the station, get my gear on, jump on a rig,
and pull gloves on as we headed for the scene...latex
under leathers for extrication, just latex for
medical. Before you get off your rig, you look over at
your partner's hands to make sure he's got his on too.
Basically, just make it happen the same way every
time, and make sure every time you do medical
training, you wear gloves. Train like you fight,
right? Pretty soon it feels really weird NOT to have
them on.

Hope that's helpful.
Nerd on the Fireline

I'll make sure she gets the info. Thanks, Nerd. Ab.

JP

Regarding blood borne pathogens ... there is a saying that sticks with me from training; "if its wet and its not yours, don't touch it."

Uncle Louie

He said:

"Looks like some active fire in the State of Victoria, Australia."
and sent State overview and Current Fire Situation Report 06 Dec 06 1600 hrs

"The Aussie's Strategic Plan for the next few days!"
and sent Executive Summary Victorian Strategic Operational Plan Fire (and map)

Thanks Dick. Ab.

After Vicki called this afternoon, it fired up a bunch of us. I have made contacts with my House and Senate elected officials and will know more in the morning about how to divert this BS.

The Riverside County Press-Enterprise did a story on the problem today. Hopefully after the story is posted in the LA Times, it will gain national attention so the problem can be corrected.

The article from the Press-Enterprise has some pretty good quotes from several local elected officials, who to say it bluntly, are pi*sed off at the bureaucracy of the IRS.

www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_tax06.3895fb4.html

Lobotomy

I want to give a little heads up about an issue that might come out in a Los Angeles Times article tomorrow. Evidently following 911, a new statutory rules were put in place that caps the amount of money families can receive in donations following a tragedy. We were alerted to this recently by the United Way who had a visit from an IRS rep. We immediately got our lawyer looking into it. We've gotten word to Senators from Idaho and California who also will be exploring short- and long-term solutions.

Let me make this perfectly clear: it is our intent and the intent of the United Way to get the Esperanza families the money that has been donated to them through our two organizations. As with other issues that come up regarding our families, we'll just keep working through this one until we find the solution.

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Way to RAISE THE BAR: Feser's CIIMT 1.

Ab.

I am going to get a new IA pack for 2007. I have narrowed it down to either the 1. Eagle Gear, 2. True North or the 3. Wolfpack.

Does anyone have any comments on these whether good or bad?

I need a detachable pack for engine work, but often times find myself on crew assignments as well. I do NOT want a giant pack that covers my whole back. I work in the desert. Something between 1500 and 2000 c.i. , with a nice suspension system.

I have used a Pack Shack pack for my entire career, but I think its time to look for something more comfortable and with better features. It has been great when detachable, but I dont like it at all when I have it all together.

Can anyone give any feedback on these three packs?

Thanks,
AZfirefighter

Is there a website or list of upcoming classes? I like what
I'm reading and would like to take JP's class.

Thanks,
Rogue Drogue

Good group. Thanks to those already involved. Readers, please email if you'd like to help out with this. Ab.

Hi,

I am a nurse instructor who has been asked to teach firemen about blood borne pathogens (this month) and I need to keep their attention. I have good material and information, but your pictures will help, and the good information on your site our small rural town firemen might not know. Do you mind if I use your information and pictures in a PowerPoint I will be presenting soon?

Anything special you want to recommend from your experience that I should include/warn them about?

MR

"After South Canyon there was pretty much universal agreement that catastrophic failures similar to that one, and that includes Esperanza in my opinion, can be traced back to failures in fire response planning. I would further submit that these failures in planning are also the result of failures of both legislation and policy implementation."

NMAirBear, I partially agree and in no way mean to offend you with the rest of my post. The firefighting and response communities have been doing everything they can under the current circumstances. Both San Bernardino County and Riverside County have formed Mountain Area Safety Task Forces (MAST). This effort began in 2001 or 2002. San Diego County also has something similar called FAST. These efforts were called a great success after the 2003 fire season.

Here is the most recent RCO MAST Newsletter: www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/documents/riv_mast_nov2006.pdf

As Higbee said,

"When I recently went to the San Bernardino National Forest on a severity assignment, we were given a book that had all of the housing areas within the forest color coded as red, yellow, or no color. It also identified potential safe refuge areas, water sources, and staging areas. If I remember correctly, the red meant stay the heck out, the yellow was high risk, and the non-colored areas meant use your best judgment under each circumstance."

I think (and it is a biased opinion so take it with a grain of salt), that the contributing failures were not in the fire response planning, but failures in the pre-fire planning and community design that the community leaders, the elected officials, the regulatory agencies, and the insurance, banking, and building industries allowed to happen for financial and political gain... Pre-existing conditions (as Lobotomy calls it, a "cockpit") that allows similar accidents to continue to happen in the future.

JMHO

Rogue Rivers

"In general, the public does not perceive a risk from fire in the wildland/urban interface. Further, property owners believe that insurance companies or disaster assistance will always be there to cover losses. When people believe the government will protect them from natural hazards, the damage potential of a catastrophic event increases. Fire prevention efforts, official pronouncements, and media depictions of imminent risk have been shown to have little effect on those in danger (Beebe and Omi, 1993). The effects of public education efforts have not been significant when compared to the need. Unless a catastrophic event occurs, wildland/urban interface protection issues generate little interest. There is a widespread misconception by elected officials, agency managers, and the public that wildland/urban interface protection is solely a fire service concern."

"It has been suggested that adjustments to insurance company premiums are the key to providing mitigation activities or to reducing wildland/urban interface hazards. Insurance companies are not in a position to provide large economic incentives to address issues locally through a change in the existing grading and rating criteria or by supporting prevention or hazard mitigation activities. There is poor communication within and among the insurance industry and fire service organizations. The insurance industry does not fully understand wildland/urban interface problems, and the public and the fire service do not understand the role of the insurance industry in the interface. Currently, Insurance Service Offices/Commercial Risk Services (ISO/CRS) grading and rating criteria do not reflect wildland/urban interface hazards or protection needs at specific risk locations. Because fire risk constitutes only a relatively small portion of the homeowner's insurance cost, premium-reduction incentives are not necessarily the answer. Insurance companies can, however, help with education, improvements in building code rating systems, and revised protection criteria in the wildland/urban interface. Antitrust laws prohibit insurance companies from working together to establish minimum insurance requirements, and in some States, laws such as the Fair Access to Insurance Requirements Plan (FAIR) give homeowners access to insurance coverage generally without regard to the wildland/urban interface."

"The interface has become a major fire problem that will escalate as the nation moves into the 21st century. People continue to move from urban areas to rural areas. These new wildland/urban immigrants give little thought to the wildfire hazard and bring with them their expectations for continuation of urban emergency services. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) estimates that since 1985 wildfire destroyed more than 9,000 homes and resulted in the deaths of many firefighters and private citizens. In 1994 it is estimated that $250 - $300 million of Federal wildland fire suppression dollars were spent in protecting the wildland/urban interface. Since fiscal year 1970, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has provided approximately $64 million in fire suppression assistance grants to States for the suppression of fires on publicly or privately owned forests or grasslands that have threatened destruction that would constitute a major disaster."

"Fire protection problems in the wildland/urban interface are very complex. Complicated barriers must be overcome to address them. These barriers include legal mandates, zoning regulations, fire and building codes, basic fire protection infrastructure, insurance/fire protection grading and rating systems, environmental concerns, and Fire Protection Agreements. Political, social and psychological factors further complicate the problems. There is no one simple solution. Leadership and cooperation is essential."

Lobotomy

I am a Wildland F/F with the State of Tn. Our crew is looking
for a print to get for our crew boss. Its called ( White Boots ).
Anyone know where to find it?

Thanks

Crew boss Pumper 243 T.D.O.F.

All we need is about 317 more people to contribute a dollar a mile ($52 apiece) to the 52 Mile Ultra Walk and the Eldorado shots will reach their goal of $52,000 for the Foundation. See for yourself. 52 Ultra Walk Pledge List C'mon, email your friends. Ask your co-workers. Step up! It was a great season, lots of OT.

The 52 Mile Ultra Walk is this Saturday and Sunday, Dec 9 and 10, a 24 hour event. They'll walk through the night! They might not be puking like Ken was on the 52 and 104 run, but it should be interesting! (Ken, hope you've recovered from surgery and can make it to cheer them on. Vicki and Lori and Dan's mom and Heather's mom and Smokey will be there, plus lots of other theysaiders)

I just heard from Sandy (IHC Capt) that all the food was finalized day before yesterday, and they're are planning on feeding up to 500 people. They actually have 2 CCC crews helping the whole weekend with setup, cleanup, cooking, etc. They ordered them 25 shirts as a thank you for volunteering their time. For more info visit the hotshots page on the walk

Shaping up to be a lot of fun. A community effort. Memorable, no doubt!

Be there or be square!

Mellie

PS. Since we're doing all risk, here are a couple of little clips. I think you wildlanders should watch these short video clips, just so you know what NOT to do! (DO NOT let your kids watch these!)

magnesium fire/explosion
www.break.com/index/magnesium_explosion.html

flaming can of wd-40/explosion
www.break.com/index/wd40_explosion.html

Allen Powers has received his pin and decals.
Bonnie Harris has received her pin and decals.
Betty Hartenstine has received her pin and decals.
Beverly Espinoza has not received anything.
Chuck Gibbs has received his pin and decals

Also we would like to listed as Gold members, as the "Southern California
Province Buying Team".

Thanks for all you do !!!!!!!!!!!!
Chuck

Nice job, Chuck. I'm sure Beverly will get her goodies in the mail soon. No doubt the Foundation will put your Southern California Province Buying Team on the Gold List soon, too. Good company on that list. Ab.

This came in from Fire Geek:

Would you please forward this video clip to Pulaski? It shows the site prep we did before the Poppet Flats Rx burn that has some burnout footage he may be able to use. Unfortunately, all of our pains - taking efforts to keep everything outside the burn unit green is now black. The good news is that it helped save the homes when Esperanza blew through!

It was to big to send so I uploaded it to wildlandfire.com. You can download it HERE. It's a very big wmv file. Ab.

Abs,

Things running rather amok down here. I'm making a suggestion that anyone who has maintained their IMT quals or Remote Operations (Hotshot/Jumper perhaps) might be invited for a 14 hr flight from LAX to SYD & points further at some time in the new year. We've apparently got some Kiwis arriving shortly for Tasmania as well.

You've already got on your links page the CFA & RFS, but DSE page is www.dse.vic.gov.au & a news page is www.theage.com.au/news/national/towns-on-high-alert/2006/12/05/1165080911348.html.

So hopefully we'll get Xmas done (although missed it in 01/02) but new year might take its toll!!

Cheers

OB

OB, Saw this one a few days ago and wondered how you all are doing "down there"... Be safe. Ab.

Grave fears for koalas caught in bushfires
The Courier Mail, Brisbane
December 02, 2006 02:24pm
Article from: AAP

WILDLIFE rescuers fear for a large koala population in the Pilliga
Nature Reserve in central NSW where bushfires continue to rage out
of control.

The Pilliga koala colony is one of Australia's most genetically
diverse, spread across a vast tract of bushland. (etc)

• hand line construction,
• burning out the line,
• setting up hose lays, &
• rolling up hose.

The list could go on, but these are my needs right now. AVI, MPG and WMV formats work best. MOV files don’t seem to want to work within powerpoint and I cant edit them.

If you have something you are willing to share, the Abs know how to get a hold of me.

Thanks

Pulaski

Keep Firefighters Safer

52 Mile Walk Pledge List
Some nice pledges coming in. Ab.

SoCalg

Let me answer your questions re safety zone, escape route and how about survival zone. This has been our approach since 1996 AFTER THE CALABASAS ENTRAPMENT, and what I still share.

First of all, a single resource will be given an assignment of structure protection lets say on 123 X street. COMMANDERS INTENT IS YOU will perform a size up (I like to call it TRIAGE, just as you would on a medical call) and only accept the assignment at 123 X Street if it is reasonably safe to do so..

You as the person in charge drive to 123X street provided you have clear passage. As you approach your size-up will continue until you arrive, as you arrive INSTANT RECOGNIZE OF HAZARDS will jump out at you. (PYRO'S VERBIAGE) There will be hazards in all structure protection assignments, as it is automatic, many watchout situations will be there. You as the Captain/Engine Boss/Crew Leader must TRIAGE THE STRUCTURE TO DETERMINE 2 PRIMARY FACTORS PRIOR TO ENGAGING.

IS THERE A SAFETY ZONE FOR THE APPARATUS AND FIRE FIGHTERS, IF SO THEN YOU MUST MAKE A FIRE BEHAVIOR PREDICTION. Now after making the FB prediction under anticipated predictable changes in time and weather etc. you commit. (I'm only scratching the surface here.)

You and your crew, by your determination (utilizing group decision is recommended, depending on several factors) have a SAFETY ZONE AT THE APPARATUS LOCATION. Now find a second Safety Zone, GENERALLY on the opposite side of structure of the approaching fire. MY VIEW IS TO MAKE ENTRY INTO STRUCTURE ONCE YOU COMMIT TO THAT STRUCTURE.

OK, now to answer your question. The Fire is approaching, do not waste your water, wildland fires GENERALLY DON'T BURN HOMES DOWN BY DIRECT FLAME IMPINGEMENT, But ignite STUFF we have on and around the structure.

But now lets say things go to CRAP such as

• The fire comes harder than you predicted
• Visibility goes to zero, large fire embers are flying so thick it looks like snow.
• Smoke obscures the fire location
• Fire Whirls developed at your location that are pulling sage out of the ground
• Wind has intensified greater than predicted, dust obscures your vision

IF AT ANY TIME THERE IS DOUBT IN YOUR MIND, TAKE YOUR CREW TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE STRUCTURE AWAY FROM THE APPROACHING FIRE .. NOW IT GETS WORSE! ENTER THE SURVIVAL ZONE INSIDE THE STRUCTURE....CREW INTEGRITY IS MOST IMPORTANT, BE PROACTIVE don't wait until the crap happens; go to the safest area at the first indication you under-estimated or some-other factor was unexpectedly introduced to the equation.

THE PRIMARY HEAT WAVE WILL GO OVER IN 2 MINUTES, IT TAKES 20 TO 45 MINUTES TO BURN A STRUCTURE DOWN.

The fire will pass rapidly; exit the Safety Zone or Survival zone and do the best you can...

I hope I have answered your question, yes GO INTO THE STRUCTURE TO SURVIVE.
IS THE STRUCTURE TO BE CONSIDERED AS A SAFETY ZONE? NO! UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE.
If you don't have two safety zones at the structure DON'T COMMIT.

Your question regarding the Malibu area, is no different than any other wind driven fire. Start at the point of origin pinch it and you will catch it when the wind quits blowing or it runs out of fuel... Protect structures where the resident and/or surroundings have provided a safety zone for our apparatus and folks... AMEN!

Thanks for the question, there was a post about a month ago asking the same issue...

jp harris

and another. It talks about such things as mitigation vs. litigation and how the earliest Native Americans of California knew how to build fire safe communities (fire resistive houses and not building in fire prone areas.)
www-laep.ced.berkeley.edu/~itr/literature/IZone2001.pdf (pdf file)

Lobotomy

Watch out about getting too close to the headwaters. Pretty remote country. Ab.

I have known from the beginning of my career in wildland fire (about 38 years ago) that contentious issues will always end up in a court of law (litigation) sooner or later. Several recent contributors have indicated that they believe that is where we are now headed regarding Esperanza and I certainly have to agree. My admonition, however, is that we all need to be very careful of what we wish for here. Having been a subject-matter-expert for both sides of contentious issues, I can say that the courts tend to issue edicts that may not be very well founded in expertise and may later become very difficult to live with for those charged with implementation.

After South Canyon there was pretty much universal agreement that catastrophic failures similar to that one, and that includes Esperanza in my opinion, can be traced back to failures in fire response planning. I would further submit that these failures in planning are also the result of failures of both legislation and policy implementation. I will end with a couple of questions:

• Do we really want the courts to be dictating policy and implementation regarding firefighter and public safety or are we smarter than that?
• Why can't we finally get our planning processes to where firefighter and public safety really is the number one priority?

I know what my answers are.

NMAirBear

If mop up and cold trailing is done properly, the back of your hand is all you need. The last thing we need to do is pack around more stuff. 99.9% of the time if the mop up was done correctly, you would never need to use a "Fire Finder". In my experience the best tools we have are what god gave us, hands, eyes, and nose. You can feel the ground with the back of the hand; see little waves of heat, see a group of gnats flying around; or get a small whiff of what still might still be burning.

The "Fire Finders" are more or less useless after awhile. I have never found that it takes the use and abuse of ridding in the buggies, or Supt truck for a season of two. Whenever we could have used it, it was usually back in the buggies -- a ways from the location needed, and/or forgotten about. Once or twice it has been nice to use after burning piles, but it usually got dropped and broken; someone pointed it at the sun and fried it; or it just does not work for some unknown reason.

A "Fire Finders" should only be used after we have completed our job, and are just re-rechecking to see if there is any heat. If if there is still heat I want to know who was working in this area, and why they did not get it done right the first time (some potato patching of the area might follow). All of the new or fairly new tools are nice, but if you just stick to the basics, and do the job right the first time, we would not need them. With exception to the GPS, Radios, headlamps, and the Kestral; most firefighting is still done the old fashion of way of putting the hand tool to the ground, burning out, or spraying wet stuff on the red stuff, and let's not forget that.

SRJS

• the 2005-2006 rain season was record setting (thus lots of green)
• the sun is lower in the sky in January compared to September (thus longer shadows)
• the shadows can create illusions such as elevated structures (or trees) appearing taller
• AirPhotoUSA "enhances the radiometric quality of the image by increasing the contrast"
• AirPhotoUSA standard practice is NOT to remove or enhance shadows
• AirPhotoUSA makes a concerted effort to collect imagery at times of minimal shadow length (13:28 for time image used here)

I have seen some comparisons AirPhotoUSA did of aerial imagery vs aerial imagery but me being me- thought I'd do my own. I used 2 sources of data from the National Resources Conservation Service (NRCS- USDA) from Fall 2005 and the January 2006 AirPhotoUSA data- both 1 foot resolution and georeferenced. I did some quick shots from Google Earth but I am not certain of the date of the imagery for that.

Also- if the imagery was made ANY sort of transparent, the hillshade/digital elevation model could have affected the darkness of the image. I do not know if the imagery was made transparent or not (sorry FireGeek- forgot to ask) but depending on the color ramp used (light grey to dark grey vs white to black) and what stretch pattern is used (std deviation with n=2 (the default) or none) the imagery could be greatly affected.

FYI- everything I have ever heard for VEGETATION imagery has said spring or fall are the ideal times for imagery acquisitions. Also, when mapping vegetation I tend to prefer imagery done by folks who are focused on it- such as the government.

So my unscientific conclusions are the following:

• The imagery from AirPhotoUSA is not ideal for determining vegetation mapping
• The shadows in the imagery or hillshade may be making the vegetation seem denser than it truly was
• The fly-though that was intended for showing firefighters the terrain and location of the structures should NOT be used in any sort of investigative process

Gizmo and No Name- if you have any additional questions let me know.

At your service,
GISgirl

Thanks so much GISgirl for your help way beyond the call of duty in everything you do for this community, including the maps for the 52 ultra walk benefit. A zip file (3,726 k) including all the aerial photos GISgirl used in making her analysis can be downloaded: AERIAL PHOTOS. Ab.

Chief,

While I agree with most of what you said in your post, I do not agree with your post concerning the Calabasas Entrapment. I have direct knowledge of the incident. Personnel placed themselves in a precarious situation on a ridge and were forewarned of the impending danger. They failed to recognize the potential fuels on both sides of the ridge where they had positioned themselves and only left their position when they were overrun, which unfortunately was too late. I would hardly call what they were doing Structure Protection. As for the engines that were overrun, they were crossing a midslope road with fire below them as they were forced stop when a civilian vehicle was abandoned. Some personnel were not wearing proper PPE's. Per Campbell Prediction system, the issue was alignment of slope, fuel, aspect, and time of day (15:00 pm). Not a structure protection problem.

Thanks to L.A. Co. F.D., every officer in So. California was offered training on the incident. Fortunately the lessons learned had a significant impact on firefighting in the WUI. Also, thanks to you for your enormous contribution and years of service. You were an icon.

Respectfully
Retired in Corral Cyn.

There has been good discussion on Wildland Urban Interface this week and
how some of us feel about it.

I'd like to address AZfirefighter for a moment about the fire gel. You are
absolutely right about Barricade Gel being used as a
"Spray-it-on-and-Leave" method of Structure Protection. I met John
Bartlett, the developer, back in the late 1990s when he first marketed it.
It met with little interest until 1998 when Florida started burning, and he
went out with his own equipment and sprayed it on a number of homes,
including a doghouse with a tempermental dog in it. All the homes came out
intact, including the dog and the doghouse.

In 2000 the community of Concow-Yankee Hill (Butte County, Northern
California) had a Fire Prevention fair and the Barricade Gel was
demonstrated but no one attending would purchase the home defense kit for
the cost of $300.00. A few months later the Concow Fire went through over
1000 acres destroying 47 homes and outbuildings, and killed one person. In
2001 the same Fire Prevention Fair was offered with the Barricade
representative giving his demonstration, which included him dipping his
bare hand with the gel and moving it through open flame, with his hand
unharmed. Again, no one purchased the home protection kit.

Two months later the same community had two more major fires, just weeks
apart, destroying more than a hundred homes and buildings. When I asked a
person who lost his home why he didn't buy one, he said he could not afford
it. I have to ask, what is more cost effective, a gel home protection kit
or trying to replace photos, documents, and property that insurance won't
cover? Insurance paid for some of the house, but not for the property
inside it. Can you place a value on what you've earned over time?

The saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him
drink."

On the issue of Wildland Urban Interface, there has been some good
discussion of the positives and negatives of it. Having worked for the
Forest Service in Region 5 for several seasons I know the resistance there
is to structure protection, but it is one of the tasks we all have to do
when given the assignment. We all know that there are risks to wildland
firefighting, and even when we follow our training and rules things happen
that cause injury and death. It is part of of the risk we agree to when we
accepted this career, either as a wildland firefighter or structure
firefighter.

I work as a career structure firefighter now, but also serve as a volunteer
firefighter, and have been doing this now for 24 years. When I take a crew
out on a WUI assignment, I keep it basic with LCES, have a ready escape
plan, and decide if the property I am going to protect is Defendable, Can
Stand Alone, or is a LOSER. And in that assessment comes this decision: Is
this structure worth the loss of a $350,000 fire engine, or lives of four
firefighters? Unless I have a clear means of egress or adequate refuge
space, its a loser.

We can't tell people where they can, and cannot build. Our urban areas of
open land are dwindling, more and more people are building in the rural
areas because of the excessive costs of homes (here in California) and to
be able to own a home means moving farther and farther away from the work
location. I can't afford $400,000 to $650,000 for a home in the urban areas
of California, and many of you firefighters in California know what I am
talking about. I have a 70-90 minute commute to work each day to live as
close as I can in an affordable community. The Civil Right to do what you
want is the freedom we have in this country and it should not be
restricted, and banning the construction of homes outside of urban areas
treads on those rights. Do you want someone to tell you "You can't drive a
4WD truck or sports car because it burns too much fuel", or "You can't own
a home because there is no space left in the city", or "You can't have
children because WE SAY YOU CAN'T".

There is inherent risk in our jobs that we all accept. Last Friday in San
Diego County a CDF Chief had to weigh the risks of an aggressive attack on a
wildland fire versus the fire leaving an area that would have greatly
expanded the fire and the likelihood of property damage and injury. When I
go into a structure fire I go to save lives, protect property, and protect
the environment. There is a chance that I could be trapped by a collapse,
or a flashover, or fall through a floor while doing my job. But that does
not mean I plan to run into a fully-involved building or a structure that
is about to collapse. That would be a foolish waste of my life.

But there are things I am expected to as a firefighter to do my job. I have
the right to refuse an assignment if it is too risky, or unattainable, or
if I don't have the skills to do it. My job as a firefighter has risk
involved, and I as a firefighter have chosen to accept those risks as part
of my job. Just as many of you have who visit this website.

I feel the loss of the crew of San Bernardino NF Engine 57 this last
summer. But reactions of "We don't do structure protection" will not sit
well with the taxpayers, something like "We have decided not to fight any
fires on Tuesdays". We are given assignments on the line, we perform those
assignments to the best of our abilities, there are risks to what we do,
and consequences if we screw up, and if we don't and nature throws us
something unexpected.

I'll be the first to say "if the homeowner took little or no effort to keep
his property cleared or provide for defensible space, then I'm not risking
my engine or crew to defend it". I'll stand up to the homeowner and say
that to his face. I will risk my crew and equipment if there is a family
trapped in that same home and they can't get out, or if I can't get them
out. That is my job.

As to the issue of adequate funding of Wildland Fire Suppression with the
feds, there was a time when a single USFS ranger district had four engines,
a helicopter, a 10-man IA crew and a water tender. Today that same district
has been combined with another district and only has three engines to cover
twice the territory with a single helicopter for the whole forest and a Hot
Shot crew for the whole forest. Where has the money gone? Contractors used
to be call-when-needed, not been granted 40-hour work weeks for standby or
contract fire tasks like these outfits that exist now. We need to go back
to those days when a contractor was called when 50% or more of federal,
state, and local government resources were committed. Our FMO personnel did
Fire-Pro projects, not "today you will put a hidden water reservoir in a
remote location to improve the deer population, and tomorrow you will build
a fence for the bio-techs who are too lazy to do the work themselves".

Now it's "we have to service the contractor before the FMO personnel". That
needs to stop. We take care of our own programs before we start dumping
money into a private company just so they can "stand-by" for the entire
season until they are called. How many more federal engines and crews can
be added by cutting off funding to resources that are on 'standby'. The
contractors will complain that I am being unfair and that they have to pay
for insurance and vehicle maintenance for their equipment and personnel.
That is the cost of doing business. That is what a towtruck company does, a
bookstore, a mini-mart, or other small business does everyday. But the
government does not guarantee them payment to stay in business. That is
what being a private contractor is about.

There is no doubt what we do is expensive. There are means to reduce the
cost of these resources and still pay our firefighters a good wage,
benefits, and retirement. That means consolidation of federal resources, we
all do the same thing the same way. We tell the state and local resources
what it costs, not $600.00 per firefighter per day. We pay the contractor
for responding to the fire, when they are needed, and not until then. CWN
worked fine in the 1980s.

This is an open forum, and these are my opinions.

MOC4546

NorCal FS F/F

Ask the current hotshots and those former Hotshots who are still around....
From what I have heard, the "Fire Finders" are as worthless as a tit
on <something> ass.... Good tool but they fail after a short period of riding
around in the buggies... and then just buzz alot.

Sign Me / Former Hotshot who still has roots to his Hotshot Roots

"The insurance company was the entity that allowed the house to be built and was culpable in the act and/or omissions of the homeowner that resulted in deaths"

Long before a company insures a structure (based on an agent's assessment) or a lending institution finances construction anticipating "it meets code", both are long after a Gov't entity authorized development in that specific location.
Fire or flood, people expect emergency personnel to save their bacon or blame others when their home is gone because of a natural disaster. Less than adequate preparedness and/or defensible space won't mean squat until folks in ivory towers understand potential ramifications: i.e. a home at the top of a chimney, eventually a fire will run uphill OR a house at the bottom of a drainage, expect flood & mud. Over simplification?

My elderly pea brain may have missed the finer points of some posts, but isn't it time everyone acknowledges and accepts a degree of personal responsibility? Aren't the first words in most mission statements: PROTECT LIFE and property second or third?

River

I have the firefinders and think that they are an exceptional tool,
I've used them on mop up and they are a definite help in making
our job easier. Sometimes there is no smoke just heat (stump
holes). I've been able to pick up a flame from a bic lighter at
15-20 feet depending on conditions. Last ones we bought were
about 700.00 a unit I think they are worth every penny.

Woodsman 20

Not a Legal Beagle but looking for my bark

Rather than spending a lot of money on fancy gear, just wait till it gets dark and having strategically placed tankers and engines for a running hose lay, use the eyeball to find the fire and p*** on it.

In all sincerity, if you looking for hot spots in the wildland, ask the company for a loaner for a while. If they are reputable they will do so. If you are using it for anything else stay away. The website indicates they are qualified to Mil-Spec which sounds like the military uses them. This in no way says they meet UL or FM approval for Classified areas. Military Specifications are notorious for less than UL & FM standards. I deal with that daily in my real job. If you even think you might need to use one in a "classified" area demand UL, FM or equivalent approval, not Mil.

ht

Does anyone have any experience with the “Fire Finder” handheld IR device (specifically on mop-up)? (www.dyn-optics.com/mod955.htm) I know they were used on the So. Cal. Forests years ago and in my experience, they were a great tool for finding hot spots. If you have an opinion, please let me know, I am trying to justify the purchase of several of them. Thanks

Nate

I recently retired from Los Angeles County Fire after 38 years, served about 1/2 my career in crew operations, crew supervisor and Camp Supt at Paid, Inmate and Juvenile crews, last 6 years as BC in Saugus/Newhall/Altedena areas.
Served on Glen Alen Fatal Investigation,, Lead Investigator on Calabasas Incident, Marple, assisted LA City on two investigations. Guest Speaker at two Hot Shot Supt conf and been teaching (sharing) wildland fire safety since 1972. and I still am allowed to share with all our new recruits for 5 hours and teach several ics classes at Camp 2 LACOFD

I have several statements to make that I am sure will create many comments.

First of all there have been several comments that FIRE FIGHTERS ARE DYING ALL OVER THE USA DOING STRUCTURE PROTECTION IN THE INTERFACE??

I have reviewed many record but mostly LACOFD. Since 1919 there have been 83 Firefighter Fatalities on wildland fires in LOS ANGELES COUNTY, including the ANF, all MUNICIPAL CITY AND UNINCORPORATED AREA. Not one of these 83 was performing in the STRUCTURE PROTECTION Mode. I am sure most of you will agree that the term interface firefighting was coined here in LA COUNTY.

So I would appreciate some feed back of actual Structure Protection Fatalities. I'm not claiming they are not out there I just don't know of any. Excepting of course the recent tragic loss of life of our FOREST SERVICE BROTHERS..

After the CALABASAS INCIDENT 1996 (Malibu area), 3 GLENDALE FIRE FIGHTERS AND 3 LA CITY FIRE FIGHTERS WERE BURNED, one Glendale FF critically burned, In fact Ted Putnam report on clothing was no other FF has taken so much heat and survived...( double Layer clothing but let's not go there, this isn't what this post is about.) The 3 Glendale FF were performing S.P. and the LAFD members were on there way when they were burned.

Since the CALABASAS INCIDENT the LOS ANGELES COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT ESTABLISHED A NEW POLICY ON INTERFACE FIRE FIGHTING THAT HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO ALL INCLUDING ALL NEW RECRUITS.

WE WON'T COMMIT TO A STRUCTURE UNLESS THERE IS A SAFETY ZONE FOR THE APPARATUS AND firefighters utilizing LCES AS OUR RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Why APPARATUS ahead of FireFighters is simple: it takes a much larger area for a safety zone for the apparatus than it does for a FF. In addition once we have made the decision to commit to a structure that has a safety zone for the apparatus and FF's, we won't leave the safety zone at the structure until the fire passes or until we are reassigned by the our boss. CUT AND RUN IS NOT ALLOWED. Hit and move i.e. rolling hills, scattered dwelling is ok providing several issues are available, i.e. visibility.

Now the hard part: what constitutes a SAFETY ZONE FOR THE APPARATUS? At MARK L's encouragement Dr. Butler at the Missoula Lab studied and recommended a formula for SAFETY ZONES. i.e. 4 times the flame length; I am opposed to formulas, due to the many variables in making a FIRE PREDICTION, such as slope, fuel bed and MOST IMPORTANT TERRAIN -- where does the structure lay in relation to the on coming fire. If the structure is MIDSLOPE ( I define midslope as any area where the slope is still rising beyond your location, even if it is just one foot rise, then you are at a midslope location.) and the "fire on fire" effect will invalidate the formula 4 times the flame length, and of course the weather patterns also play an important role.

Since Calabasas Burnover I have been struggling with the issue of how do you teach what constitutes a safety zone for the apparatus. The only way I have found is by performing field trips and utilizing existing structures for props. This has been very effective teaching tool and according to those attending very beneficial. As an instructor the only way I will do an Interface class is with field trips as part of the class. I have not come up with a way to share in a wider fashion.

misc comments.

RUMORS: Rumors create problems for investigations and the reports that follow. Every person that's on a serious or fatal mishap will tell their own story or their view on what happened, then their story gets retold and added to, soon someone's opinion becomes an irrefutable tale. On the Glen Alen and Calabasas Incident there are stories out there that many will swear to but in fact are not true. So I would ask all to hold all comments on the Esperanza Incident until the reports are out and if they are done correctly, they will deal in FACTS.

Have you ever thought that the FIRE ORDERS AND WATCHOUTS were NOT DESIGNED FOR STRUCTURE PROTECTION? Probably the Watchouts are closer aligned to Structure Protection. I am not saying we don't utilize the FO but in reality they were designed for on-line use or direct-fire fighting. Yet these are the Rules we will be held accountable to if we have the misfortune to have a member of our crew injured. And as has been written before on THEY SAID how unfair, i.e. base all actions on current and expect fire behavior. Post lookouts, use scouts. -- hard to do if haven't been there before, or are on a 3 person crew, but if you are working out of a SAFETY ZONE we lessen all risks.

Many of the posts have discussed the issue of not allowing property owners to build on their property, guys and gals you can waste all your time in the world on this one and it ISN'T GONE-HAPPEN. Nor is insurance or lack of it going to happen in California due to the LAW OF FAIR PLAN INSURANCE which requires some good clearance requirements.

For municipal Fire Departments, one of our best tools is enforcing our existing clearance laws... i.e. 100 to 200 feet for most of us.

DISCIPLINARY-CRIMINAL ACTION

A difference in agency handling of serious incidents, and not to pat LACOFD on the back, But our Fire Chief on the second day of the Glen Alen Incident 1993 (2 fatal, 2 critically burned FF) called our lead investigator and said to inform the Crew Supervisor that LACOFD considered the supervisor to be performing within the scope of his employment. Meaning the Department would back him against any action from any source OSHA, PERSONAL LAWSUITS, so when we interviewed the crew supervisor with tape recorder going he barred his soul and every thought he had, and Human factors were exposed.

How can management discipline (HURT) a supervisor more than he or she is already HURTING after injuring one of our own?

I hope the Federal agencies can reverse the horrible road they are going down in this regard, and I sure hope State agencies don't follow such a path.

These thoughts of mine are meant to help and not hurt, and I have touched on several issues but they have been on my mind for some time so I wanted to expose a little different view.

Also my wife usually fixes my writings so all you who are looking for misspelled words and sentence structure consider the source just a grunt.

John JP Harris
LACOFD 1963 --2001

Welcome JP Harris. Thanks for joining us. I have a request for clarification if needed: Could you please reference where on theysaid you get information that causes you to make this statement below?

First of all there have been several comments that FIRE FIGHTERS ARE DYING ALL OVER THE USA DOING STRUCTURE PROTECTION IN THE INTERFACE??

I would say that firefighters here have expressed concern about defending indefensible structures on the interface and we at theysaid believe this is an important issue to discuss. In no post have I seen any comment that supports your statement in caps above, an I read 'em all.

That said, I do understand that you want to clarify and emphasize that very few firefighters, historically, have been lost or injured as they defend structures on the interface. Valid point. Thanks for writing in. We need all experienced voices contributing on the interface issues. Ab.

Ab update: JP pointed out the post in a private message. He's right, it was said. The deaths of the 5 loom large in our minds.

www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardino/fire/hg.shtml

Lobotomy;

Thanks for the excellent analogies. My question, however, is more about who do we look to for leadership on this issue ( improving WUI firefighter safety while improving safety of homes in the interface zone ) . Not being politically astute, or connected, on any level, I have no idea, but am more than willing and able to write letters, make phone calls, etc., in support of an issue. And I suspect there are many of us out there in the same condition; don't even know if there is an advocacy group addressing FF/home safety, but ready to support the effort if there is.

Obviously, WFSA would be logical, but they're a little busy at the moment... incidentally, thank you Casey for the heads-up on TheySaid re: FFF classification/reimbursement. That's exactly the sort of info I'm looking for.

jimhart;

I'd never heard WEZ before, but its great! Going to adopt the term for all future intro-to WUI training from now on. Maybe it'll help the Kids hear a little better...

Lobotomy, jimhart, obviously you guys are more connected to breaking info/sources. Please just let us know if anything comes up that we can jump on. I like your thinking.

Please excuse the rambling...

Pyro5755

Nerd on the Fireline

We got photos this summer of the Derby Fire. They started appearing in our inbox about 9/15/06. The group of 7 photos include several of the fire blowing up, of a horse in a burned pasture, of several of cooked and bloated deer, beat and one of an engine rollover but upright in a shallow river. One set of photos came in from Loryl B who was passing them on. I posted only two photos and asked on the photo description page if anyone knows who the photographer is. Evidently from the description below the person was a resident near the fire, but it was a big fire.

To see the 2 photos: On both photo pages... Third row down, right hand side.
Fire 32: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/fire32/fire32.htm ; and
Engines 16: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng16/engines16.htm

The reason I'm asking is that a mom of one of the firefighters who worked on that fire would like to find the photographer to get a better version suitable for making a poster for her son.

Anyone know anything? Who took 'em. Any contact info? How this mom might find the photographer? My guess is that this series of photos might have been posted on a site where people can post their own photos. Or on a blog.

Here's the message from the photographer about the photos. It was passed on to us with the photos attached. Sounds like a hairy scene.

Ab.

>From a person living in the area of the Big Timber fire:
>Things are slowing down in our area with mostly spot
>fires to deal with and clean up. 200,000 acres and a minimum of 40
>homes and untolled other structures. Our neighbors lost 3 barns a
>house and numerous other buildings in what looks like a war zone.
>Attached pictures were taken from our front deck.
>1. Fire front with 50 mph winds in what is called a wind """"event"""". This
>was the most frightening as we didn't think it could be stopped. We
>had hoses spraying down the house and pumping water from the pond. The
>pilots """"bombed"""" with fire retardant slurry at least 20 loads on my
>neighbors ranch complex and then the wind switched directions at dark.
>A cold front hit and things blew into a fire storm. The fire direction
>turned 90 degrees and roared across the Stillwater River wiping out
>most of the homes documented in less than 5 minutes.
>2. Bomber doing retardant drops just to the west of our house.
>3. Front before the wind switched with cattle on our irrigated fields.
>4. Neighbors lonely horse in burned out pasture. They lost their home
>even though they had hoses on it for six hours. Burning embers hit
>deck and the rest was history.
>5. Fire truck that was caught in the fire storm and smoke and couldn't
>see where the river was and rolled. They were lucky in that if it had
>ended upside down the occupants would have drowned as the cab was
>crushed.
>6. Dead fawn by my friends house where the fire came through a mile
>long canyon in less than minutes.
>7. Dead bear at neighbors place that was literally cooking in its skin
>from the heat. The house survived by a miracle, but not a blade of
>grass survived.

Ab,

I offered to share the spatial analysis on hazards, risks and values conducted on BDF with jimheart if wanted graphic proof of the absurdity to build homes in some of the WUI (WEZ) areas. This offer is good to anyone who could use some additional documented evidence of the problem. Agency administrators, politicians and bureaucrats have limited attention spans and geographic pictures can be very powerful to prove a point. Attached is a small excerpt.

Fire Geek

Risk Assessment (1,370 K pps/ppt file) Ab will put anyone in touch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Downed power line blamed for morning blaze that burned almost 300 acres in Santa Ysabel
By J. Harry Jones
and Kristina Davis
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITERS

December 1, 2006

SANTA YSABEL – Shortly before sunrise yesterday, a risky, even daring, decision was made that may well have prevented the county's next huge fire.

About 5:30 a.m., strong Santa Ana winds had downed a small power line just east of Santa Ysabel, starting a fire that quickly climbed up a hill.

Winds were howling, and the humidity was low. The flames were heading southwest, a few hills away from thousands of acres that hadn't burned since 1961.

At 6:20 a.m., Battalion Chief Ray Chaney of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection was in a spotter airplane, watching as the flames crested a ridge and headed into a small valley just north of state Route 78 about a mile west of state Route 79.

Chaney, who heads CDF's Ramona Air Attack Base, concluded that firefighters had about a 10-minute window of opportunity. As long as it was in the valley, the fire was moving slowly because it was shielded from 40 mph winds by the mountain behind it.

Open fire

Division Chief Bill Clayton and Battalion Chief Kevin O'Leary, who were in charge of the ground attack, were in constant radio contact with Chaney. Together, the three men decided on an aggressive and potentially dangerous plan: attacking the fire head-on. (Click link at the top to read the rest.)

I worked for good aggressive supervisors and others not so. My opinion? I prefer the more aggressive type and view them as "safer" overall. It is too long of a concept to try and articulate here, but it makes sense to me for some reason. Basically, you can survive a boring dead assignment with an aggressive supervisor, but you'll have an interesting time in a hot piece of line with someone <who> doesn't "like" to fight fire -- face it -- there are those types out there (and what a miserable time inside they must have).

You also said

Even if you were able to "take on the building industry" as you suggest, what about the millions of "existing-non-conforming" structures out there. I'm sorry, but as a public safety servant, it is my duty to at least make an assessment of those structures using my KSAs and act accordingly. Sometimes we leave them, but most of the time we do not.

If I get injured or killed doing it, someone needs to investigate it, try to learn from it what they can, and move on. At that point I will have become a member of a unique group of firefighters unfortunately. I know I'll be Monday morning QB'ed, blamed for something I forgot, and beat up. I know this going in-and I get paid a living to do it. I accept it willingly and hope that it doesn't happen and I am afforded an opportunity to retire at a relatively young age and have my health and fond memories of a career well done serving the citizens I am sworn to protect.

I don't believe I know you, but the words you choose in your post concern me.... What it seems you're saying at first read is "I am ready to die for my cause, I am a firefighter.... make me a martyr.."

It isn't heroic or honorable for anybody to protect an unoccupied structure and encounter the risks for ourselves and our family..... We all need to do the best to come home each day.

Ask a family member or friend of someone who has been killed protecting an unoccupied structure or a piece of grass or tree-covered ground before you reply..... Lots of folks out there with those RPD slides other than the Esperanza Fire families and friends.

If you think that is part of your duty and what you signed on for as a firefighter... you are a part of he "human factors" problem that has yet to be fully addressed.

What I hope you mean is that you feel it's your own decision to act, or not, relying on your own KSAs and you're willing to assume responsibility for the outcome, be it good or bad.

And I hope you'll make choices based on the safest "we all come home" choice, not based on what's the most aggressive or the CDF culturally-expected choice.

Expand? Clarify? I am really interested in understanding what you mean.

NorCal Tom

Sounds like someone is out there advocating for sensibility in fighting interface
wildfire. Thanks to Richard Halsey. He's on target. Thanks also to Keith
Matheny/Desert Sun for the good article.

Todd

Auditor: Forest service shouldn't shoulder all costs
Keith Matheny
The Desert Sun
December 1, 2006

The U.S. Forest Service is spending too much money as it fights large wildfires, a federal auditor's report found.

Forest Service firefighters now spend most of their efforts and funds protecting homes in the "wildland urban interface," neighborhoods built in rural areas prone to wildfires, a new report by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Office of Inspector General shows.

More of the costs of defending homes should be borne by state and local agencies, the report states. The Forest Service spent more than $1 billion on wildfire-fighting three of the past six years.

"There's such a huge expansion of this wildland urban interface, I don't think, frankly, the firefighting community has been able to keep up," said Richard Halsey, a firefighter, ecologist and wildfire researcher with the Escondido-based California Chaparral Field Institute.

Crews from the Forest Service, California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection and local agencies worked together on the desert's two major wildfires this year - July's Sawtooth-Millard complex fires and October's Esperanza blaze that killed five Forest Service firefighters while they tried protecting an unoccupied home. (Click link at the top to read the rest. Halsey has a number of good comments.)

fair use disclaimer

This has some good info and some contact names for those who want
to let their county leaders know what's on their minds.

SoCal FF

Audit: Firefighting too costly
REPORT: It recommends local agencies shoulder more of the burden to curb growth in blaze-prone areas.
10:15 AM PST on Thursday, November 30, 2006
By BEN GOAD and DOUGLAS QUAN
The Press-Enterprise

FIREFIGHTING COSTS

Federal firefighters were lauded for heroic efforts to save homes during the devastating firestorms of 2003, and last month a U.S. Forest Service crew paid the ultimate price when the Esperanza Fire overtook them as they tried to protect a home.

Now, an audit of the Forest Service has concluded that the agency shoulders too much of the financial burden when fighting big wildfires.

The U.S. Agriculture Department's inspector general found that protecting homes in areas of extreme fire danger has greatly increased the agency's firefighting costs. The Forest Service has spent more than $1 billion fighting fires in three of the last six years.

Placing greater financial responsibility for fighting wildfires on state and local agencies might encourage them to restrict building in fire-threatened areas, thus reducing the threat to human life and firefighting costs, the audit released Wednesday found.

Most Riverside and San Bernardino county leaders have been unwilling to prohibit home building in even the region's most fire-prone areas, citing individual property rights. However, since the Esperanza Fire, at least one Inland official said he now is questioning those long-held policies.

The 2003 Old Fire destroyed more than 1,000 homes in San Bernardino County. Yet, in the 18 months after it was extinguished, Inland cities and counties issued permits for more than 2,500 homes in areas the state designated as facing "very high" or "extreme" fire danger, a 2005 investigation by The Press-Enterprise found.

"The buildings sprout back faster than the brush does," said recently retired San Bernardino National Forest Supervisor Gene Zimmerman. "We do need to do something relative to this continued building in these incredibly fire-prone areas."

Policy Questioned

There is no Inland area where residential building is outlawed on private property because of fire threat. None of more than a dozen local and state officials interviewed during the 2005 investigation said they would support such restrictions.

But in the wake of the deadly Esperanza Fire, Riverside County Supervisor Bob Buster said he wants to examine possible restrictions on development in such areas. The Twin Pines home that the five Forest Service firefighters died trying to save last month probably shouldn't have been built there, he said.

At his urging, supervisors last week agreed to form a committee of fire, law enforcement and planning officials to explore ways to prevent a repeat of the Esperanza tragedy.

Buster said Wednesday he wants the committee to consider the feasibility of buying vacant but currently buildable lots in order to prevent future development.

Other Inland officials disagreed. (click link at the top to read the rest)

fair use disclaimer

Here's the 58 page OIG Audit Report on the Forest Service firefighting
costs: www.usda.gov/oig/webdocs/08601-44-SF.pdf (pdf file)

Tahoe Terrie