A memorial service will be held on Monday, March 5th 11:00 AM at the Christian Community Church in St Ignatius, MT will be celebrating David's life, not death, as this is what he wanted. Hope that you will join in sharing all the wonderful stories and antics that made each of you in remembering David.

This summer David will take his "Final Flight and Jump." David's ashes will be scattered in the wind over the Mission Mountains. Connie, his wife, hoped to have it done after the Memorial service, but the weather is predicting rain or snow - go figure!

In lieu of flowers contributions can be made to:
PineHaven Christian Children's Ranch and School
PO Box 940
410 St. Mary's Lake Drive
St. Ignatius, Montana 5985

Web site:
www.caringbridge.org/cb/inputSiteName.do?method=search&siteName=davidboyd

R5 Dispatcher

OA's apologies for the temp. mis-spelling of Tom's last name. Probably a lesson to be learned regarding those tiny buttons on the palm sized units and/or cut/pasting. OA

You ask some good questions. Most of us have been puzzled early in our
careers by what seems to be a lack of action, as we wish it would be.
I'd suggest trying to get some training on the fundamental operations of
government. My favorite is a course by the Woods Institute called The
Dynamics of Congress. It is Government 101 and more. Helps employees
understand the role of Congress, and the role of Agency directors in the
implementation of government. Answers many of the questions you ask.

Old Fire Guy

I have a shift plan from the cedar fire for 10/30-31 and 11/2,
if you need them let Ab know and we'll get them to you.

D

www.fs.fed.us/t-d/php/library_card.php?p_num=9851 2841

Dick Mangan

Ab note: username t-d and password t-d

In Region 3 after SOME work to elevate the importance of processing HSQs, ASC now sends weekly updates on the status of those who have sent in HSQs to WCT administrators. It was just short of crisis mode to retain currency for spring testing and expiring WCTs. This should not have been that complicated of a process to have in place.. it did demonstrate how oblivious they were to handle this need.

I hate to spill the beans, but if you like having your seasonals from last fall still not processed for separation and not receiving their annual leave, temp hiring certs processed in terms of months (maybe), or things like Engine upgrades still not completed after being submitted last October or getting different directions up to 4 times (and counting) to submit a PAR request, then you are gonna love this. At this point we are well behind where we should be for hiring fire temps for this fire season. And supervisors at all levels, be prepared to experience what is the largest frustration imaginable. Many HR processes are not being done, no matter how much time you spend chasing them. But that should be expected, since we no longer have HR.

It would be helpful if they were learning from our hardship... ASC full steam ahead. The HSQ is workable, the other HR stuff, not so much.

Signed,

Reconnoiter

http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/heat/#
www.usariem.army.mil/download.htm
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Thanks, I posted it on the Awards page. Ab.

Here's a link to Reno Weather:

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov

Here's the link to Nevada road conditions:

http://safetravelusa.com/nv/

And for those of you from R6, here's the California road report:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/cgi-bin/roads.cgi

Buckle up! Be Safe! and enjoy yourself at the various Reno meetings!

NVJims

Clyde

Another email: 3+ feet of snow, still coming down. Be safe. WEAR YOUR SEATBELTS!
Yeah, as NVJims says, that's not snow in Reno per se, but snow over the passes. Ab.

Old Boot

Way to go San Berdo.

One proud Forestry Tech

Thanks,
Moondoggie

It's for training. Ab.

The family of Ken Castro would like to thank EVERYONE that came to the Memorial Services and Celebration of Life festivities this last Wednesday. The stories were touching, funny, insightful and made us all proud of our brother, son and friend. The support the family has experienced has been overwhelming...thank you! Thank you also to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation for their support during this sad time.

Cindy Wood
Ken's sister
Wood's Fire & Emergency Services

B82

I just attended the fun-est night of the year for this old gal. The NWSA held its annual
dinner and auction for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

This year was in honor of Arnie Masoner and Doug Coyle who we lost last year. Rick
Dice and Bruce Ferguson made a wonderful, and heartfelt tribute to both Arnie and
Doug. A few tears, a few beers, lots laughs... with over $62,000.00 raised in their
memory. What a tribute to these great guys... It was especially nice to have both their
families there. The event was well attended. Jeff Berend, Bill Boardwell, Ron Hopper,
and many, many more came to help raise money in their honor.

It was an evening I will not soon forget.

Vicki Minor

P.S. On the way home I ran into a few women waiting at the airport, for their firefighters
to come home from Australia. I want to WELCOME ALL OF YOU HOME... and tell
you how proud we are of you, to serve the fire community the way you have as
ambassadors for fire.....

Independent: I’ve heard story after story about wildland firefighters spending days or even weeks playing cards in somebody’s backyard protecting a valuable home from a fire that may or may not ever reach that home. Do you think people who build homes in that wildland/urban interface should be able to expect the Forest Service and other land management agencies to protect their homes at taxpayers’ expense?

Bosworth: Well, let me give you my opinion here: I think it takes a significant shift in the public’s view. Because the people do expect when they build a home, and they’ve gotten a permit to build a home, that somehow that home is going to be protected for them at taxpayers’ expense. Also, the way insurance companies operate, they’ll insure it. There’s a whole mess of things that perpetuate that.

My opinion is that that culture has got to change. I think the agency is going to have to move more toward a risk management approach on fire. By that I mean moving the firefighting forces to places where there’s the most value at risk, where there’s the highest potential for fire. In some cases we may not be able to protect the home. And then we’re going to have to help the public to understand that, to do the work that they need to do around their property that will reduce the chance of them losing their home.

So there’s a whole cultural shift that needs to take place that I think is going to take some time to get done.

It better be the winning buck! Ab.

" Last week I participated in a brief with our Chief regarding fire control and the 2008 budget. You all have heard me talk about this and my fear of moving toward a single-mission Forest Service."

"...Because of many things that are out of our control (climate change, urban sprawl), fire suppression costs are skyrocketing. To accommodate this escalation within a traditional constrained budget process is not realistic. If we continue on the present course, we will move from a multi-mission agency to a single mission agency (fire control.)"

OK folks, here is the time to educate me and let me know if I'm off base...

If fire preparedness resources dollars (all of them) actually got to the Forests to fund the necessary preparedness resources to meet the intent of the NFP instead of being diverted to pay for non-fire projects, wouldn't having adequate preparedness resources in place mitigate to a large degree the impact of all the other excuses being offered as a cause for suppression cost increases i.e. drought, urban interface, yada yada yada...

That seemed to be the point recently made to Mr. Rey by Congressman Norm Dicks of Washington, so why aren't folks like Mr. Rains not understanding this very basic concept?

Proper preparedness resources in place provide for the best opportunity to keep fires small, less costly and less impacted by all these "out of our control" manifestations. If firefighters and congress understand this, why don't those that are in positions to develop & implement fire policy?

Obviously I'm missing something...

Casey

Well said. Good post. We Abs have supported both organizations and believe in the work they're doing for all of us: the WFF to support our wildland firefighters/firefighter families in time of troubles; and FWFSA to support our professional federal wildland firefighters exercising their First Amendment rights and responsibilities.

WFF is supported entirely from contributions, most of them from firefighters and extended firefighter families, across agencies, public, private and volunteer. There have been times in the not so distant past when there wasn't enough $$ in the bank to pay some basic WFF bills. I'm not sharing secrets when I say that the Foundation only very recently has had enough sustained donations to provide its few employees with any kind of health insurance, let alone pay its director, who is also its founder and original Visionary. More and more people have caught and shared the WFF vision, brought their talents and knowledge to bear and persisted with the effort. The WFF is our safety net.

FWFSA is supported entirely by membership dues. As most can imagine, it is incredibly expensive to travel to Washington and everywhere else that Casey needs to travel and to pay for lodging while there. In addition, there's the old saying, "Money is the mother's milk of politics." FWFSA has never had much "Mothers Milk" money. To make up for that they, and especially Casey, have worked longer and harder. His work with FWFSA and firefighters is also his passion. (If you're a FWFSA member that has gone to meetings, you know how little Casey gets paid -- equivalent of some really low GS rating -- and it's only recently that Casey has received extra to put toward health insurance as well.) Some years ago Casey caught the vision of the early FWFSA founders and brings great intelligence, experience, communication skills and awesome professionalism to the FWFSA effort. He's making a real difference for all of us. Sure, let there be a grassroots groundswell for both membership and fundraising for the FWFSA. Casey, what do you think? ...Maybe the pups could ask for donations and set up fundraising events? haw haw Ab.

NorCal Tom

"In addition to our leaders, our employees must be part of designing and implementing these organizational changes. As we move forward with transformation to realign Washington and Regional Offices, and on-going centralization of services in Business Operations, we are requesting nominations from all units for "Change Champions". Change Champions will play significant roles in preparing employees across the agency for changes resulting from these two efforts. The Change Champions enclosure describes these roles and expectations. The due date for nominations is March 6, 2007."

Any nominations for people who want to "Volunteer" for CHANGE CHAMPIONS of a sinking ship? Please share.

After March 6, 2007 (The Reply Due Date).... A Freedom of Information Act Request (FOIA) will be made to see who was "nominated" and "who" was selected as CHAMPIONS and what the roles and expectations enclosure described as duties. A request will also be made for folks who turned down their personal nominations in disgust for the process and what the goal was.

As the Chief said, "...our employees must be part of designing and implementing these organizational changes."

Any field employees at the Forest or District level involved as CHANGE CHAMPIONS?

noname

"Many of you have been contacted by Dialogos, the contractor for our effort to build a Culture of Safety for the 21st Century. This effort will be further discussed at the April NLT meeting. The Foundational Principles Conference concluded last week. We can expect multiple venues for dialog and evaluation of the outcomes from this effort. As these two initiatives move forward, we will decide how best to integrate and manage them in concert with the focus on a Diversity Strategy and Safety Culture. "

Her quote was directed to the "Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff"..... I wonder how many folks at the Forest, District, and individual levels were contacted about how their "management efficiencies" were strangling the Forest Service (the employees) and its mission?

Lobotomy

Ab,

I just looked in my mail to find a gorgeous Christmas tree ornament. What a
beautiful way to remember a FF mom at a difficult season. I have no words...
just deep emotions of love and thanks to all of you.

Sarah Larson (Matt Taylor's mom)

Regional Assessment of the Spotted Trail Incident letter (60 k doc file)
Spotted Trail Peer Review (3,850 k pdf file)

Thanks MB. Ab.

Working for the FS, in R1, all employees including temps as far as I know, no longer use HSQs, we all have to have physicals through CHS (Comprehensive Health Services). Your boss sends you the packet, CHS sets up an appointment, you go, the Dr. sends the info to CHS, who in turn requires you to fill in the blanks with your orthopedist, cardiac specialist etc. After you submit all the info that was not addressed by the doc, they either flag or clear you for the pack test. You then show up as cleared or not in a system administered by CHS (I think this is accurate) and you agency administrator can check your status on a secure website. When you are listed as “cleared” you can take the pack test. I have had mixed results with this, but overall, even though the process is quite convoluted, the customer service people at CHS are great when it comes to getting things turned around quickly. I was cleared within a week of the appointment even with a special trip to my orthopedist!

MTFirefly

Lobotomy knows we Abs are against the Democrat vs Republican rhetoric. Firefighters come from both major parties and probably Independent, Green and Buddhist, etc as well. Politics, as in political party preference, is not what this forum is about; lots of other forums for that endless discussion. No need to get crosswise here over politics of that sort. Mollysboy almost oversteps at times, like the little boy with his eye on Dad as he approaches a family-defined "no no". Never fear Lobotomy, if Mollysboy leans too near the boundary again the Abs will let him know. He isn't above swat on the be-hind, behind the scenes of course. HAW HAW Ab.

I do not think Congress will act in any way soon enough that will make a difference to wildland firefighters on any of the bullet points Rey pulled out (of somewhere) pertaining to law and the SNAFU surrounding the 30mile indictment and criminalization of fire.

Rey set up the FS for unreasonable expectations with his 3 bullet points and the way he presented them. What good does it do to say in effect "we're interested in these issues"? Well DUH.

What we need to hear is

THESE ARE THE ISSUES: 1, 2, 3, etc
HERE'S WHAT WE WILL DO TO DEAL WITH and ACCOMPLISH 1.
HERE'S WHAT WE WILL DO TO DEAL WITH and ACCOMPLISH 2.
HERE'S WHAT WE WILL DO TO DEAL WITH and ACCOMPLISH 3, etc.

THIS IS THE TIME FRAME WE NEED
TO DEAL WITH 1,
WITH 2, and
WITH 3.

Please know that we probably cannot accomplish these by the beginning of fire season 2007, but we are working on them with everything we've got.

Leadership, clear direction? where is it? Another ineffectual Brownie appointee overseeing the FS and a lawbreaker himself. What has this country come to???

Don Young -congressman at large from our cold but great burnable state of Alaska- some time back got on a rant in a Congressional briefing meeting on fire and fuels. He said words to the effect that

we live in a time when it's going to take a whole town getting burned down before Congress acts.

His rant also included the fact that the media controls perceptions. Seemed pretty extreme at the time, but I am coming to agree with him. Someplace soon in the US we will have another SoCal Firestorm 2003 with inadequate resources and great losses. We will have been shouting the warning from the rooftops... Members of the public will die. Firefighters will die. Expensive and inexpensive houses will burn up. Shame, when you get right down to it...

AK F/F

So when push comes to shove, will they pass it back to the FMOs?
FMOs don't want that responsibility. There's also an issue of privacy.

Another potential boondoggle?

RJK

There are

• 92 total
• 69 are FS
• 11 are BLM
•  8 are BIA
•  2 are NPS
•  2 are County (in CA) and State (Ak/UT)

Anyone know how many experienced, long term hotshot supts have retired/left at one time in any of the previous years? Is this more than in the past? Does anyone have records going back 4 or 5 years?

8 not available in 2007 is
9% of all hotshot supts;
11.5% of FS hotshot supts.

Are there experienced leaders to replace them? If those new supts are pulled from the HS capt ranks, are there experienced squaddies to step up into vacated capt positions?

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: February 22, 2007
Subject: National Initiatives
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff

REPLY DUE MARCH 6, 2007

The Forest Service is undertaking a number of major initiatives, all with the aim of intensively reviewing, and in some cases making fundamental changes to the organization and its culture.

These efforts include:

• Organization Transformation: Reviewing the structure and function of regional offices and the Washington Office to improve efficiency and effectiveness.
• Business Operations Transformation: Centralizing budget and finance, and human resource functions, and implementing the new Information Resources Organization.
• Establishing a Safety Culture for the 21st Century: Exploring the agency’s safety culture through an intense review of the agency’s operational norms to address core safety issues that challenge our organization.
• Diversity Initiative: Enhancing our commitment to achieving a more diverse workforce and serving a wider diversity of customers through a focus on mission effectiveness.
• Foundational Principles: Identifying foundational principles that will be critical to building a resilient and adaptive agency for the future.

Managed separately, each of these efforts could have major impacts on employees, on the use of the agency’s resources and time, and on clarity of our overall direction of the Forest Service. Clearly, we do not have the capacity to conduct these efforts without some coordination and prioritization. This was affirmed on the February 13, National Leadership Team (NLT) conference call. In some cases we will be making adjustments to original plans, keeping focus on the goals of each initiative, while reducing the impacts on employees.

These initiatives are far-reaching and represent the potential for significant change in the organization and its operations. As such, each of you as NLT members has a personal role in assuring the success of actions that result from these efforts. We will proceed as follows regarding each initiative:

The organization transformation efforts (both WO/RO restructuring and Business Operations transformation) will require us to clearly build understanding, acceptance and support among our employees agency wide. In addition to our leaders, our employees must be part of designing and implementing these organizational changes. As we move forward with transformation to realign Washington and Regional Offices, and on-going centralization of services in Business Operations, we are requesting nominations from all units for “Change Champions”. Change Champions will play significant roles in preparing employees across the agency for changes resulting from these two efforts. The Change Champions enclosure describes these roles and expectations. The due date for nominations is March 6, 2007.

Plans are underway to implement a new Diversity Strategy as discussed with the NLT on several occasions. We will have a meeting of the “Diversity Ambassadors” in late February with specific focus on improving diversity through a focus on mission effectiveness. This will be discussed in a separate letter. We will work with our contractor, the Kaleidoscope Group to provide additional services with units that request these services.

Many of you have been contacted by Dialogos, the contractor for our effort to build a Culture of Safety for the 21st Century. This effort will be further discussed at the April NLT meeting. The Foundational Principles Conference concluded last week. We can expect multiple venues for dialog and evaluation of the outcomes from this effort. As these two initiatives move forward, we will decide how best to integrate and manage them in concert with the focus on a Diversity Strategy and Safety Culture.

I appreciate your support in managing these initiatives collectively towards a common vision.

Abigail R. Kimbell, Chief

Just got a call from Vicki in the Reno airport heading home.
The NWSA auction raised $62,000 for the Foundation.
Nice job, Private Sector!

Firenwater, the picture you donated brought in $1,000!

Sounds like everyone had a really fun time.

Mellie

thanks a lot i appreciate it, my email is thedudeinwranglers @yahoo.com

thanks again guys

If anyone has info for a new person fighting fire in this part of the country, please email him directly or send a reply via me. Ab.

EMBO

Someone could FOIA the resource order data from last year, including Unable to
Fill (UTFs) and when ordered/unfilled. My guess is this data would indicate
definitively the decrease in fire resources at least in terms of last year. Casey
also has a lot of the nuts-and-bolts data on who is leaving.

I heard that CA might have one fewer IMT this season due to declining participation.
I hope that's not true.

Tahoe Terrie

Abs,

TAG - YOU'RE IT!!

OB
(enjoying some rain, albeit coastal...)

www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200702/s1853673.htm

El Nino declared over

The Bureau of Meteorology has declared the drought-causing El Nino weather phenomenon has passed after influencing Australia's climate for more than a year.

The bureau says it is time to be optimistic about drought-breaking rains, although the drought is far from over.

In a statement, it says all the main indicators show neutral conditions have returned to the Pacific Basin.

"Along the equator, sea-surface temperatures are cooling rapidly and have been below their El Nino thresholds for about a month now," the statement said.

But the bureau's senior climatologist, Grant Beard, says it may not mean heavy rain is on the way.

"Unfortunately, El Nino is not an on-off switch, so just because the El Nino has finished in terms of its broad-scale indicators, it doesn't mean that imminent widespread rain is about to occur to break the drought," Mr Beard said.

"In fact, a lot of the areas through the south and east of the country, in terms of water supplies, are so far behind that only several years of healthy falls will replenish those supplies to something that is considered satisfactory."

But he says rain is now more likely.

"It provides optimism - cautious optimism, I would say - for a return to more normal rainfall pattern in the drought-affected areas during the next one to two seasons," he said.

Mr Beard says the rain would likely fall over Australia's eastern half and in areas in the country's south-west.

The climatologist says early signs have emerged of an imminent La Nina cycle, which would bring more rain.

"We think that the chance of a La Nina developing this year is probably higher than the long-term level of chance, which is about one in five, or 20 per cent," he said.

"La Ninas are usually associated with above-average rainfall over fairly large areas of the continent, particularly the eastern half of the country.

"But in terms of the long-term water supply issue, it's really impossible to say.

"Several years of above-average falls are really needed."

Glad you're getting some rain, OB. Ab.

Baffled/Not Surprised, sorry to jump on your space here. As far as I know we Abs have not offered blanket endorsements of any person that precludes professional accountability. Some things are talking points. Some things are absolutely misleading if not completely untrue.

That article said:

Rose Davis, a spokeswoman for the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, said a nationwide system that logs firefighters' availability has not seen an appreciable decline. Each year, firefighters are issued "red cards" that indicate their level of training.

"So far, we have not seen a decline in number of folks participating in incident management teams. We haven't seen an increase of applicants turning in their red cards," she said.

What kind of comment is this? Rose knows that redcard information is not yet in for 2007 and won't be for some time. Heck, in R5 both hiring and hoops we must jump through for the WCT approvals (that have to go thru ABQ) means -- not only do we not have redcard info yet for 2007 -- we may not even have fire forces ready and redcarded if we have an early fire season in socal.

It amazes me that our wildland fire community's IAWF survey is discounted by WO and talking heads that know better like Rose. This is the first survey of wildland firefighters done since South Canyon. The powers that be better pay attention to what it's saying.

At least stop spreading falsehoods, Rose, even if your bosses say you must spin it.

Ab.

Incredulously Amazed

"The Last Best Place" will await Mark Rey's best buddy from California with open arms, and a very knowledgeable environmental community that has a long record of slamming in Court the "cut and run" timber beasts that don't give a damn about our (yours and mine - the Public's) land and natural resources. Mr. Tidwell will be watched closely and called up short if he tries to force thru the current Administration's policies like selling off public lands or marking timber for harvest in the name of fuels reduction before the Environmental Assessment is even completed. Coupled with a large percent of our population (less than 1,000,000) that have been, or have close ties to, wildland firefighters, fire is an ever-present part of our lives (when it's not snowing!), and we watch out for our own.

Remember, we're the one's that brought you "Wildland Firefighters for Tester" and shifted the balance of power so that the Democrats control the Senate!!

Send Mr. Tidwell off with a fond "adieu" and give him some woolies for a going-away gift!

Mollysboy

Bushman82;

Sounds familiar; staff infighting or not knowing what's going on, plans changing hourly (of more often), noone/everyone in charge, etc.

My crew went to SE Louisiana in early October; by January, we had discovered that there was no Supply or Logistics Section that we could find for the local Parish, hence, no drinking water, food, or household supplies for the civilian populace. The Liaison/Coordinator, at one point, wanted me to transport my crew to New Orleans (55 miles, one way) for feeding; said it wasn't that big a deal, as we could take bag lunches at breakfast time, and just come back by 1700 for supper, so we only had to make 2 round trips a day. I asked when we were supposed to get some work done; was told not to worry, we'd be getting paid for travel time. I'd asked for a couple cases of MREs, and this was the plan...

The only consistent thread about "The Plan" seemed to be that, every 2 weeks, we had a new Team running things, and they rarely had been briefed by the Section Officers they were replacing... at least once, all Finance records left with the outgoing Team.

When FEMA polled the State, and Parish Fire overhead for needs, Parish heard about it after the fact, leaving them with 2 intact fire stations, out of (about) 10. FEMA was left with the impression that Louisiana had no needs for fire equipment, or fire services...

The one shining moment of the experience, was dealing with the Deputy Director of the NFA (serving as Fire/EMS Coordinator); unfortunately, he was sent home after the 2 weeks. Therefore, everything he was able to begin for our service area, died off with his term of service.

Around the middle of April, I was touring yet another FEC around the 2 Fire Districts we serviced, for a quick familiarization & risk/hazard analysis. About halfway through, he said (4th guy to say this), "Wow, these people really need some help down here!"; I blew a cork, started yelling "That's what I've been SAYING for FIVE MONTHS!". Fortunately, he was an understanding sort of fellow...

Shortly after, I decided it was time to just come home for fire season...

All in all, an exercise in frustration...

Pyro

No name

At was announced this morning at the RLT meeting that Jim Pena from
the Plumas NF will be the new R5 Deputy Regional Forester replacing
Tom Tidwell.

MJS

The NWSA gathering and auction raised more than $50,000 for the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation last night! That's got to be a record!

Sal

Great news, Sal! Thanks NWSA, you're a great bunch of professional private sector firefighters. Maybe with that event Vicki can take a much-needed winter vacation. Seems like vacation time has all but disappeared in recent years. Ab.

"I also took the IS-800 class, but can you identify all of these acronyms:
PFO, JFO, NRP, HQ, SFO, SFLEO, DRM, IMPT, DHS, SCRAG, IMPT, DRG, MACE, DRG.
I can probably get 50% off the top of my head, but not the rest."

The only one I know if the first one PFO. I don't know what it means south of 49 but up north here it is a
polite but emphatic way to say get lost.

Smokedawg

On the flip side, I had three of my best students accept or are about to accept positions with USFS units, a forth who is taking a job with the NPS, and a number of others waiting for offers. On the surface it sounds like it all evens out, it does not. The employees that are leaving were some of my best students and the agency has spent substantial amounts of time and money training these individuals. The loss is significant. During a period when most of the senior ICT members will be retiring (NIMO report), and “normal” retirements may be accelerated (Thirty Mile backlash), the system will be brutalized if the entry level system becomes a “turnstile” for the future Superintendents, Captains, Engineers and “Squadies.” It’s great for CDF, and local government fire departments, but it’s not very cost effective for the feds.

For anyone in the RO or WO to imply that there is no retention problem is flat out “nuts.” They would do well to listen to the Captains Groups, the Hotshot Superintendents, senior Operations Chiefs and Division Supervisors who have, for the last few years, been raising the alarm. You can continue to state “everything is fine”, it’s not--- MANY OF YOUR BEST PEOPLE ARE LEAVING. Saying that you do not have a retention problem because you cut crews and engines, down staffed coverage patterns or reduced the number of people on per day, (which makes it look like all the slots are filled) is nothing more than a “Red Herring” argument. I have to go; I have an appointment with another federal firefighter (forestry tech) who wants to explore their options for transferring to a city FD.

Ab, thanks for letting me vent. It is frustrating to see these individuals leave (all ex students) when they could make such a significant contribution to the fed fire.

Ron Marley,
Fire Technology Instructor
Shasta College
Redding, Ca

If anyone has questions, feel free to call. 530-225-4624
Ab, you can leave my name and phone numbers.

Thanks Ron for the hard facts. These are not the same firefighters I heard about from a RD on a coastal NF, but the pattern is identical. Heaven help California when next fire season rolls around. Ab.

SoCal firewatch

The following link provides a portal into the site using the wayback machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060515144911/http://www.fireleadership.gov/

Gleason Award, values/principles, toolbox, etc links down the lefthand side appear as grey boxes. You can position your cursor over the link and read the url to identify what it is. The link also works in the wayback machine, just click on it. You should be able to get to most of what you need. Looks like the last time the site was crawled was May 15, 2006, some info might be dated. Good luck.

If anyone knows what the timeframe is for having the Fire Leadership web back up and running, please let us know so people who need it can plan.

Ab.

Maybe we need a new acronym list? Anyone have a digital copy, please sent it in. Ab.

Looks like it is down. I wonder for how long. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you recall in December a memo came out from WO (FS only) that talked about hazard pay for
helicopter flights and it generated a lot of discussion. The attached seeks to clarify that direction
and in my opinion does a pretty good job.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: February 9, 2007
Subject: Hazard Pay for Low Level Helicopter Flights
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff

There have been a number of questions regarding the letter we issued December 13, 2006 (copy enclosed), regarding the granting of hazard pay for low level helicopter flights. The Office of Personnel Management direction regarding limited control flights is found in 5 CFR 550, Subpart I, Appendix A, which states:

Limited control flights. Flights undertaken under unusual and adverse conditions (such as extreme weather, maximum load or overload, limited visibility, extreme turbulence, or low level flights involving fixed or tactical patterns) which threaten or severely limit control of the aircraft.

The hazard pay is related to the use of the aircraft not the work of the occupants. If the flight is undertaken under unusual and adverse conditions which threaten or severely limit control of the aircraft, then hazard pay is warranted. Hazard pay is not authorized for situations such as flying passengers from a work center to a location to fix equipment and when there are no adverse conditions that threaten or severely limit the aircraft.

Ignition devices used on a prescribed burn do not in and of themselves meet the definition for hazard pay. However, if the device threatens or severely limits the aircraft under the adverse conditions listed above, then the employee (not the pilot) would be entitled to hazard pay. It is the limits and stress placed on the aircraft, not the work being performed by the employee, which entitles the employee to the hazard pay.

It is up to the supervisor who authorized the use of the aircraft and/or made the determination that the work can only be accomplished under these adverse conditions to authorize hazard pay.

Hazardous duty means a duty performed under circumstances in which an accident could result in serious injury or death (5 CFR 550.902). We should not be subjecting our employees to such conditions unless it is absolutely necessary.

Employees who were authorized to perform work under the above conditions prior to December 16, 2006, may be entitled to back pay. Back pay is limited to two (2) years for those employees covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and six (6) years for those employees not covered by the FLSA.

If the employee wants to file a claim for back pay they must submit documentation that demonstrates what work was done; the documentation must have the supervisor’s concurrence that the work was accomplished and that hazard pay would have been appropriate under the conditions listed above. The employee’s servicing Human Resources Office (SHRO) will make the final determination if back pay is appropriate.

If you have any questions, contact your SHRO. Only regions, stations, area, and WO staff may address their questions to Debbie Rigden at (703) 605-0822 or email her at drigden@ fs.fed.us.

/s/ Donna L . Hubbert
Director of Human Capital Management

I put a permanent link to the IAWF Survey results in the Documents Worth Reading section of the Archives. You can find many docs there relating to fires, burnovers, and other issues discussed on theysaid. If you're looking for materials for training, check also the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned and the Fire Leadership websites.

Ab.

To: Still out there as an AD.

I have taken all four I-classes up to 800. As a individual who responded
to Katrina and Rita with a type 2 team it is my opinion that not even FEMA
knows how to implement and or manage this "GEM". My experience looked
nothing like the NRP, we had FEMA staffers that didn't know what was going
on, we had COE staff fighting over ICE, plans changed hourly, there were
lots of people/groups/organization all claiming they were in charge. It was
so bad when Rita hit us the local parish showed up wanting food and water
no one knew how to request it, finally the FEMA guy said to give them what
we had on hand which was sufficient for 1-2 meals. When it was our turn
to rotate out, no one argued.

Bushman82

"Laying the foundation for the agency to implement 'privilege', which should not to be confused with 'immunity'. Briefly, this means information gathered during safety investigations can not be made public. The military and other agencies have used privilege and courts have ruled in favor of keeping information private. This will take both internal and external support and will require a culture change (i.e. time), but not a change in law."

While I agree with the concept, the leaders of the USDA and USFS are missing the mark and focus on the legal precedents that have been already set in the past... and somehow they (Mr. Rey, Mr. Bosworth, Ms. Kimbell, Mr. Harbour, et al) prefer to sit silent while the troops prepare to leave based upon their silence (IAWF Survey, 2007).... There is a definite lack of leadership while they sit on their thumbs and have time to act in positive ways....

1) Read the Constitution
2) Read Garrity and Kastigar
3) Read the various posts on "They Said" who reference the above legal precedents and others that are relevant and how Garrity and Kastigar were not applied correctly.....

No need to invoke "privilege".... those rights have already been determined and applied by the Courts.... and by the Founders of the the Constitution... It ain't rocket science.....

Folks need to get back to basics before they try to change laws and have to water down their views or opinions to be politically correct..... Get back to the basics and speak about your knowledge and experience that got you to the positions you are in.... Speak from the heart about what is really broken without fear from a bureaucratic mess.... USDA Forest Service = A Bureaucratic Mess.

Simply said... Be A LEADER....

Gizmo

It's that time again!! The Conference of Fire Service Women is in Oakland,
CA, April 25-29. Tuition is $400 per person that is including the pre -
wildland workshops. To save money you can register as a group, the first
five participants are $400 there after there will be a 25% discount per
participant, but you must register as a group.

There will be a recruitment fair again and we will be having an
inter-agency booth. We are still looking for representatives from FWS, NPS
and BIA. If your interested in helping out or you have positions you
looking to fill please contact Jane Arteaga at jarteaga@ blm.gov or
916-978-4436.

See the following web site for workshop and activities. www.wfsi.org/index.php

The heart and deepest respects of our group goes out to all of those who were injured in the line of duty and we commend those who were there to help all of our firefighters grieve the loss of San Bernardino Engine 57. These were not just firefighters, these were our friends… They were also brothers, husbands, fathers, sons, uncles, grandsons and people who had plans and ambitions greater than that day that tragically took them away from all of us.

The loss of these men is immeasurable and it will long remind each of us of the dangers we face when we staff our nearly 300 Forest Service Engines in California in what seems to be a year round fire season within Region 5.

As previously stated in last years Engine captains report, we again highlight that we are continuously loosing our ability to attract and retain our employees due to continued increased housing costs in California, low Federal wages without par ability to other agencies surrounding the federal civilian workforce and with the on going issues of pay versus retention we continue to struggle in our support of the “On the Ground Firefighters” of the U.S. Forest Service.

In 2004 and in 2005 we sounded the alarm of a mass exodus of quality employees leaving the USFS to accept better paying jobs with City, County and State Departments to better provide for their families all together. We have continuously collected and provided adequate data to support the claims of mass attrition and vacancy amongst our organization and are still awaiting some type of resolve that will assist us in retaining a highly effective workforce as was intended when we implemented the (MEL) “Most Efficient Level” buildup in 2001 till present.

Our collective group still provides our Regional Leaders with a “Can Do!” oriented group but I must admit, it is getting much harder to provide the level of service required with the current and unimaginable vacancy rate here in Region 5.

Our request continues to be our unanswered plea for equal pay incentives commensurate to our cooperative agencies as well as a new request that a more thorough review of our State of California situation affecting USFS Federal Employees be reviewed by the Washington Office and congressional administrators.

Our Regional Workforce has provided excellent and dynamic leadership in what was possibly one of the most difficult fire seasons to date. In a few short months this meeting will be far away from the tasks that we will be asked to perform in what is sure to be another busy 2007 California Fire Season. We will perform, we will respond and we will make calculated and educated decisions in regards to risk versus gain management. We will be held accountable at the highest level for the young men and women we lead into these dangerous assignments as firefighters…. It is during these times that we as the voice of the Fire Engine Workforce ask that something be done to relieve the ongoing strain and burden of a deteriorating workforce.

We thank our Regional Leadership for these opportunities to assist in the detection and elimination of these catastrophic workforce issues and we pledge our continued commitment to improving our organizational efforts to reflect a professional, dynamic and goal oriented group serving the best interests of both our employees and the public we serve.

Thank You, all of the Captains in R-5 for making us who we are today.

Sincerely, William Molnar
Regional Engine Captain’s Chair

I'm a little perplexed by your comment that "They died while performing wildland fire duties, who cares how you break it out?" Seems to me that it's like saying that a person died of cancer, and not caring if it was lung cancer, cervical cancer, colon cancer or skin cancer.

If you don't know the real "problem", how can you start looking for the best "fix"?

Aberdeen

It's a logical thought if the only option for saving the civilian life is taking your crew into an interface area with an alignment of forces that also violates LCES for your crew. Structure firefighters have to do similar risk assessment. Ab.

I hope the WO and congressional reps read the survey comments after the results, of course. I realize all were not included, but there is a broad cross-section of comments. (mine must have expressed something a little different; it made the list.)

When Rey made his 3 points before the NR & E committee (that video), the points that Harbour described as a slam-dunk, he said nothing about timeframe only that he/the powers that be were interested in working on the 3 issues. (Hmmmm, has anyone compared what's being written now with exactly what Rey said in the video?)

From Snell's letter:

some of the actions the National Office is working on to address agency support for firefighters. Briefly these are:

1. Making professional liability insurance available to fire line supervisors.
2. Working to clarify the law that requires the Office of Inspector General (OIG) to investigation when a Forest Service employee is killed by a burn over or entrapment. (PL 107-203).
3. Laying the foundation for the agency to implement ‘privilege’, which should not to be confused with ‘immunity’. Briefly, this means information gathered during safety investigations can not be made public. The military and other agencies have used privilege and courts have ruled in favor of keeping information private. This will take both internal and external support and will require a culture change (i.e. time), but not a change in law.

However these Snell comments compare with Rey's words, I doubt if any of the 3 can be accomplished by the beginning of fire season 2007. I also wonder what stage the Daniels court case will be in by then.

I'd like to think we'd have resolution, but in all likelihood, nothing will be resolved before R3 starts to burn. What then?

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Bill and IAWF. Ab.

Q: Is there anything particularly noteworthy about this year's fires?

A: We are in a drought, so conditions are very dry. But in comparison to
last year, the fires just aren't as intense. News-wise, it's just the story
of the saga continuing. Last year we had a lot of evacuation orders, towns
and structures threatened, this year not so many. That's not, of course, a
measure of how scary and stressful it is to the residents of town that may
be less directly threatened this year.

Today's policy still retains human life as the top priority. Following
that, we need to assess values at risk and other health factors/costs etc.
For example, if you are the IC and have the choice to protect an evacuated
subdivision (not firewise, risky, high cost) effort.....or you can protect
a watershed that provides a city of a million plus folks their drinking
water. Balance the choice.

We have historically chosen to spend millions of taxpayer dollars in order
to save insurance companies from having to pay claims. That choice
sometimes results in public resources experiencing losses that are
uninsured.

At least that's my read.

Old Fire Guy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: February 15, 2007
Subject: Clarification of Federal Wildland Fire Management Policy
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Deputy Chiefs and WO Staff

The Office of Inspector General (OIG) recently issued a report, “Large Fire Suppression Costs,” in which it recommended that the U.S. Forest Service reiterate the Federal Wildland Fire Management Policy that gives protection of natural resources and property equal consideration. This recommendation was made because the OIG audit team found that, “FS managers and staff that we interviewed either believed that protection of property continued to have priority over the protection of natural resources, or said that public and political pressures required them to give property protection a higher priority.”

However, Chapter 3 of the 2001 Federal Wildland Fire Policy states that, “The protection of human life is the single, overriding priority. Setting priorities among protecting human communities and community infrastructure, other property and improvements, and natural and cultural resources will be based on the values to be protected, human health and safety, and the costs of protection. Once people have been committed to an incident, these human resources become the highest value to be protected.”

To be clear, this means that after the protection of human life, all other protection decisions are to be made based on the values to be protected, human health and safety, and the costs of protection.

Please ensure that the appropriate people on your staff are aware of this policy.

/s/ James E. Hubbard
Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry

I think Mollyboy's unknown author quote is more appropriate for survivors and families than Voltaire's quote. Besides he did not attribute it to Voltaire. (It could have been Ted Putnam or Dick Mangan or any one of a number of fire investigators who was the unknown author, after all.)

The main point is, regardless of the rest: to the dead and for Lessons Learned, we owe the truth.

"To the survivors, we owe our sympathies; to the dead, we owe the truth!" (Unknown author)

vs

"To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth." ~ Voltaire

Mellie

Tom Jones

Yep, a former timber lobbiest should know what sounds reasonable. Ab.

Here is one (long) example of an existing communications agreement.

I was assigned as a DIVS(T) to a Type 3 fire on the Bitterroot National Forest after the IC and the Operations from the Type 3 team about ate their lunch when the fire initially blew up. This never came out and actually the two of them laughed about it, like it was no big deal and maybe happened frequently. That was my first red flag!!!

After the Type 2 team took over and then transitioned back to this Type 3 group, we had an incident that I should have filled out on a Safenet. We were expecting a cold front to occur around 1300 hours -- at 1040 I overheard a medivac taking place on our frequency from the Payette National Forest (250 miles away) that there were two critically injured smokejumpers. I walked my entire division to inform my SOF3, OPS, and IC3 of this emergency and informed my folks to hold off on transmission until I could resolve the issue.

This is really where it gets interesting.... some other DIVS(T) and SOF3, OPS, and ICT3 decided to change frequencies at 1100 hours on the entire fire -- when a cold front was expected at 1300 and not all resources were capable of making this change. They all proceeded with the change, but I could not. My radio had a lock on it even though I told them this was the most ridiculous tactic I ever witnessed in my entire career in the middle of day with a cold front due in about an hour. They told me I better make it happen and change the frequency from the one DIVS(T) pulled out of her hat from Grand Junction, Colorado, a frequency that was a BLM channel with no authorization to use from NIFC. I called all of them to the table and told them their Safety was below the level of fundamental basics and yanked every one of my people off my division to roll hose in a group until this backwoods group could get their act together. I received a pretty interesting evaluation from the OPS guy, as he told me I lacked confidence..... I told him the only confidence I lacked was in his inability to lead.

As I read the burnover from the incident regarding the Santa Fe Hotshots and the timeliness of that and how I also waited way too long to bring this to light as part of our lessons learned, but our culture is breeding inhospitable actions in more ways than one. I apologize deeply for waiting so long, but the lesson I learned is our culture is not getting better and more and more incidents seem to be happening. Not sure if we are just fast tracking or IFPM is the root to all this madness, or lack of leadership, but my gut is giving me a powerful message right here and now.

No Name Please

Thank you for sharing. Ab.

"The good news," Rey added, is that only 800 homes were lost last
year, despite a record 1 billion acres burned, compared to 3,000
homes lost in 2003, when 5 million acres burned."

Once again, Mark Rey is out of touch with his facts. Last year, nearly
10 Million acres were burned, a far cry from a "record 1 billion" as he
is quoted as saying.

FedWatcher

Here's the FS Region 5 link to their video library.
It's has stock footage, not narrated or edited, of
fires and assorted other videos about fire and
firefighting. There is some good "filler" and
information videos there. The Region 5 web has been down
this weekend, so try in a couple days. The library is
free, I've used it, a few years ago, and received the
videos pretty quickly. I don't know if there are
copyrights, I don't believe there are on the FS stock
footage, but some of the other programs might have
them.

www.r5.fs.fed.us/video

Hope this helps,
Former grunt

EGBhotshot

"INDIVIDUAL RULINGS:
Former employees may request an individual ruling to see if their
former work with the Forest Service can be creditable under the special
retirement provisions for law enforcement officers and firefighters.
This individual ruling is necessary when:
--you can't find your position descriptions (PD); however, you believe
the PD itself could have been matched to a covered position.
--your PD of record was incorrect - it didn't cover what the primary
purpose of your job was.
--your PD was correct and not coverable, but -- due to circumstances,
you actually spent over 50% of your time doing coverable law
enforcement or firefighter work.

This individual service credit determination affects only the
individual making the request. It does not constitute a retroactive
position determination that would convey coverage to all eligible
persons holding the same position of record. For example Felzien,
Perske, and Pate were individual rulings.
If you want to request an individual ruling for law enforcement or
firefighter coverage of past service you must submit your claim in
writing to Helga Brown, HRM; USDA Forest Service; 1601 N Kent Street,
Rm 600 RPC, Arlington, VA 22209. Be sure to include in your request
which positions need a coverage determination."

The third scenario is the one most like my situation -- however, only
20% of my time (in the Term appointment) was firefighting, not 50%.
Unless she only considers the time at my last GRADE, in which case it
was approx 50%. So I'll contact her to clarify, because a 5-month
extension would help me greatly.

But it's good to know that for at least SOME employees, their
firefighting when in a non-fire position may actually count. The
website goes on to describe what info you need to provide (it's
immense), how soon you have to do it, and gives another example of the
third scenario. (The website was from 1999 so the contact info may be
different now.)

MOC4546,
Regarding your #5 point, do you mean that Terms can apply for jobs
advertised to "Status Candidates"?

Thanks again to all,
BirthdayWoes

It doesn't matter if you worked on Type 1 or 2 crews unless you filled a PFT or Perm/Seasonal position

This is because Primary Firefighters can retire after twenty years of service as a primary firefighter. With retirement available after just 20 years, primary firefighters (and Law Enforcement Officers) contribute 7 1/2 % of their gross bi-weekly pay into the retirement programs - CSRS or FERS. The rest of the Federal employees contribute just 7 %.

If you occupied a primary firefighter position as a PFT or Perm/Seasonal say for 2 years while you were in your 20's, then you would have contributed to the retirement systems for those 2 years. Having done so, if you wanted to re-enter into a primary firefighter position your entry could be extended for 2 years past your 37th birthday - until you are 39.

The 37 year age limit is because primary firefighters must contribute for a full 20 years before early retirement at age 57. This requirement is absolute! There's no waivers or exceptions allowed by OPM. If you're approaching age 37 without any prior service time as a Primary Firefighter you need to get a PFT/PermSeasonal position ASAP!

I'm sure of this information because I had to research this issue for one of my employees.

However, your time spent as a seasonal firefighter will count towards your length of service if you get rehired by a Fed Agency and continue with them until you retire.

I hope this helps - if you have more questions just post a note on TheySaid.

AK Old Timer

I'm looking for links to some good video clips to use in presenting S 130 or any other class.

Thanks,
RoFNGokie Teacher-"-

Actually, I am fairly sure the NPS was most responsible for IFPM. Ab.

"Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds; but don't forget to have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous, ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in the oddities that freedom can produce. And when you get through kickin' ass and celebratin' the sheer joy of a good fight, be sure to tell those who come after how much fun it was."

Sounds like words to live by, and a new informal statement of purpose for TheySaid.

Mollysboy

Many Thanks to Len Dems for the post about my brother, Ken Castro. Len has been a tremendous help to Ken's family in their time of need. Ken's services will be held on Wednesday, February 21st at 2:00 pm at the:
French Mortuary
9300 Golf Course Road
Albuquerque, NM 87114

A Celebration of his life will be held directly after his services, "Aloha/Hawaiian Attire" mandatory, the location will be announced at the services (unavailable at this time).

Instead of flowers, the family requests that donations be made to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in Ken's memory. Feel free to share stories with us all about your experiences (embarrassing, humorous and close calls) with Ken as we bid him farewell. Thank you all for the tremendous support you have shown him and his family during his battle with cancer.

Cindy Wood
Wood's Fire & Emergency Services

You and yours have our sympathy, Cindy. Ab.

On the big day, the Old Forest Service won by a mile.

The Modern Forest Service, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Old Forest Service had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the Modern Forest Service team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, Modern Forest Service management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, in the National Rowing Plan, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Old Forest Service, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager, none of them having any rowing experience.

They also implemented a new performance system that would make the 1 person rowing the boat more professional. It was called the "IFPM Rowing Team Program", with meetings, classes and deadlines for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Old Forest Service won by two miles.

Humiliated, the Modern Forest Service management abandoned the National Rowing Plan, laid off the rower not meeting the deadline, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Albuquerque Service Center as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to contractors.

original author unknown,
modified by sting

Been lurking a long time and thought I would throw another horse on the WCT pile to see if you want to beat it any more:

I think that maybe we should take another look at the validity and application of the WCT. I still pass my annual WCT for the “arduous E-Ticket admission” to fire season, but I do not believe it is all that healthy for my semi-old guy aging joints and disks, nor does it give any strong indication of my ability to perform effectively as an ICT3 or DIVS. Most all of my youthful and elder fire compadres also pass the arduous pack test each year, but usually have some fairly significant muscle soreness or joint pain for many days afterwards, since speed walking with 45 pounds is not in their normal PT regime.

In a 2001 paper delivered by Brian Sharkey at the annual meeting of the International Association of Wildland Fire, Missoula, MT, he states “Twenty-two incident command positions call for the arduous category test; of these, only two include the actual firefighting duties for which the test (WCT) was devised.” I assume these two to be FFT2 and FFT1. Sharkey wisely suggested that a “careful evaluation” be made of the ICS positions that actually need the arduous test may help alleviate some of the cardiovascular risks in the test.

The NWCG works through “working” committees to evaluate and revise standards. Unfortunately, these committee members sometimes have limited information or science at their disposal to base decisions. Sometimes individual committee members have specific agendas or regional needs that they attempt to browbeat into national policy. Typically they rely on “OK that sounds good, lets move on to the next item before our lunch break” that is common to committee decision making.

The newer NWCG 310-1 (April 06) shows minor reductions in fitness requirements for two positions - the strike team leader engine (STEN) and the strike team dozer (STDZ) were reduced to a “moderate” rating from the previously required arduous. The NWCG Safety Health Working Team (SHWT) decision to move these to moderate fitness level appears to be based on some limited MTDC/Brian Sharkey job exertion research on the SOFS, STEN, STDZ, DIVS, and SITL positions that was carried out on fires in Washington and Montana in 2003 and 2004. The 9/2004 NWCG SHWT meeting minutes reflect that Sharkey’s data that they based their decision on “may not be representative of the overall requirements of any of the positions due to the limited sample size and short duration of data collection.”

Does a Division Supervisor who walks his division all day really need an arduous rating while a Line Safety Officer who walks this same Division only needs a moderate? Does a DOZB need more fitness walking the same fireline as a STDZ? Could I perform my ICT3 position safely and effectively with the same moderate fitness rating that the STENS working under me have? I am sure we could all offer arguments going either way.

The bottom line is we need to be fit for our position. My experience tells me that line overhead positions do not need the same physical attributes that pulaski drivers need. I believe we should focus more on reasonable job specific fitness regimes (scheduled and verifiable PT) for line and other certain other fire positions in conjunction with regular physical exams. The once or twice a year 3 mile flat ground speed walk with a 45 pound lead brassiere (WCT) only shows me as a fire manager that my firefighters can speed walk 3 miles on flat ground with a 45 pound lead brassiere.

Grumpy

interested

"Grid for spots at the head of the fire; grid for overhead at the heel."

meow

Smokedawg :)

Readers, OPM rearranged the way that the jobs are listed. They now order the list by closing date, not by most recent job opening as they used to. To search on newest job opening, you can go to the OPM site and click that option. Alternatively, I have added another category to the three "fire job" series pages: jobs that have opened in the last 2 weeks. Given the number of jobs in the 462 series that have opened in the last 2 weeks, I may cut that down to jobs that have opened in the last 7 days. I know many people apply for jobs and then apply for additional jobs as they open.

My apologies to the person who emailed 2 weeks ago with the question about this. I misunderstood your question. I didn't realize you were referring to one of the jobs SERIES pages. HAW HAW, my answer to you probably sounded pretty lame.

Ab.

While I am sure there are plenty of fire departments who do not participate in the pack test, I know my department, and almost every municipal fire department in central Arizona DOES complete this test. We, as a consortium of departments, feel it is important to meet the national standard. Even though all these Phoenix-area departments complete annual physicals through the fire department health center, and even though most of these departments only have a small or none existent wildland fire problem, we still respond state and nationally.

Our union does not step in and tell us not to participate. WE are the union, and those on our local agency wildland fire teams feel it is important to test ourselves, and meet the national expectation.

Plus, its just one more way of keeping ourselves physically challenged and healthy.

AZfirefighter

Wassup?

Sad, I haven't heard this. Perhaps it's only in your shop. Ab.

Forsgren says;

I assure you that as Regional Forester I will personally stand behind you and your folks in the face of a bad outcome if you fulfill your role and responsibilities “with due caution.” Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution can answer three questions in the affirmative:

• Did you have a plan that was consistent with agency policy and guidelines?
• Was it a good plan?
• Did you follow the plan?

I know those indicators of due caution have been attacked as “unreasonable expectations.” I see it differently.

(snip) and later

A few final thoughts on the concept of due caution. Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution always consciously think about and document: their assessment of risk; the steps taken to adhere to the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and mitigate the 18 Situations That Should Shout Watch Out; and implementation of LCES. Line officers who act with due caution practice careful oversight in adherence with the Thirtymile guidelines.

We know that all cannot be documented when fires blow up like in the socal firestorm of 2003. This is the same old rule-bound stuff. R3 has similar unexpected wildfire conditions on occasion. In his own words, this Forester is saying you will not be supported. And now line officers are at risk too.

NorCal Tom

I commend you on speaking out to clarify your expectations and insights into due caution and the reasonable aspects of firefighting. However, they did not give me much relief as I struggle with the issues of responsibility and liability currently threatening to burn us over. I don't see much reasonableness in how our actions are analyzed after the fact. Your reference to plans "consistent with agency policy and guidelines" meant having a working knowledge of ALL policies and guidelines. I'm sure you have them ALL memorized. Maybe you meant knowing the most important policies and most of the guidelines, but by posting it clearly as ALL policies and guidelines you have helped set us up. I don't know of anyone who has specifically considered one of the Ten Orders and then purposely ignored it, but I do know that on any given day, at some point in time, someone has been out of compliance with one or more of the Ten Orders. That is a fact. We are set up by those who have trotted out the slogan "we don't bend them, we don't break them" Bad things happen, things are not foreseen, and certain things are certainly not expected. We are to base our actions on current and EXPECTED fire behavior, not UNEXPECTED or within the realm of possibility. Yet we are set up again by you and others who tell us to "include contingencies for the unexpected" and that we should "expect the unexpected".

If that is what you and our leaders truly expect, I expect we are gonna see a huge increase in training budgets so we can fully meet those expectations.

NWRG

AL

My name is Brian Janes and I work on the Klamath National Forest on the Hotshot crew. I wanted to post a message that this year in the spirit of the 52 club, I will be running a 6 day loop of 220 miles of the Klamath Forest stopping at many of the work centers to spread awareness of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and working to get the entire forest involved.

I am working with the Foundation to spread and coordinate the event, but wanted to post it here so that the word will spread. The date is April 1st to 6th and, even though it is early, the more who know the better. If anyone is interested in more information, please contact me at xtremejanes13 @ hotmail.com (footsteps for firefighters) or contact Melissa at the Foundation. Thanks to all for the support and see you this summer.

Thanks

Brian Janes
Klamath Hotshots

Please keep us up to date on plans. Ab.

Attached is the February 15, 2007 Wenatchee World article about Ellreese's legal defense fund for the criminal charges at Thirtymile. Please note, there is a local reporter now covering Ellreese's plight. We are hoping to get more articles in the newspaper about the affect these charges have on the wildland firefighting community and the USFS in general.

www.wenworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1171568494-490-475

The story did not have the fund address, here it is if you would like to contribute:
Account No. 1000110690
Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund
Cashmere Valley Bank
PO Box 249
Leavenworth, WA. 98826

And I dropped more letters and cards off for Ellreese today, he truly appreciates this show of support, it brightens this stressful time. Thank you to all who have taken a moment to let him know you care about the difficult situation he is in. If you would like to send letters, here's the address:
Ellreese Daniels C/O
Wenatchee River Ranger District
600 Sherbourne
Leavenworth, Wa 98826

Thank you,
Heather
Retired USFS, Colleague and Friend

CJ, could you please let the community know about services. Our condolences to his family and friends. Ab.

www.wenworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1171571693-646-747

Story from a Wenatchee World reporter who is now covering Ellreese locally, rather than using Yakima Herald for Associated Press.

HAM

PS - I heard there was a mail delivery difficulty for him.

I am designing an exhibit for the San Bernardino County Museum titled “Living on the Edge: Natural Disasters in SB County.”

This exhibit is designed to present the history of catastrophic events in our county and ways in which various communities have dealt with them. The SCEC motto of Awareness = Preparedness is our overarching theme. The exhibit is scheduled to open March 16th.

While we have quite a collection of archival images of historic events, we have very little, if any, of contemporary disasters. I am searching for images of the Panorama Fire, Old Fire, and any other recent events in the county.

We are a non-profit museum and the exhibit is designed for general public education and awareness.

The images we need would need to be scanned at a very high resolution for printing and graphics purposes. 30 mgs or larger is preferred at 600 dpi for image trim size 24 x 36 or larger. If you are able to assist us, we would be extremely grateful. All images used in the exhibit will be credited either to the source or the photographer.

Carey Smith, Exhibits Division
San Bernardino County Museum
Ph: (909) 307-2669 ext 239
Fax: (909) 307-0539
csmith @ sbcm.sbcounty.gov

1. Amending Public Law 104-208 to allow fireline supervisors the ability to have the same reimbursement privileges for liability insurance which are now afforded other supervisors, managers, and law enforcement officers.
2. Proceeding with modifications of policy and procedures that would enable the Forest Service to implement the concepts of “privilege” as used in the military and elsewhere. In essence, this would provide for a “firewall” between our efforts to learn from serious accidents and our efforts to ascertain responsibility for those accidents. This is essential to our ability to get complete and candid information that will help us improve our risk management practices, while maintaining our employees’ rights.
3. Clarifying the intent of PL 107-203 to allow both our firefighters and our partners the full measure of both lessons learned and any appropriate administrative or criminal charges. That law, requiring the Office of the Inspector General to investigate all wildland fire fatalities, disproportionately focuses those reviews on criminal fault finding.

While these three actions are not sufficient in of themselves to address the concerns of our employees, they are important and significant steps in the right direction. The agency is also looking at other appropriate actions that we may take. As we pursue those actions and as this case plays out in the legal system I want to reiterate my support for those employees making critical decisions in the dynamic environment of fire management. That support, however isn’t a “blank check.”

I assure you that as Regional Forester I will personally stand behind you and your folks in the face of a bad outcome if you fulfill your role and responsibilities “with due caution.” Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution can answer three questions in the affirmative:

• Did you have a plan that was consistent with agency policy and guidelines?
• Was it a good plan?
• Did you follow the plan?

I know those indicators of due caution have been attacked as “unreasonable expectations.” I see it differently.

Some believe it is unreasonable to expect ICs to know all of the relevant policies and guidelines. I believe it is leadership’s responsibility to select ICs that have the capacity to learn those policies and guidelines and then see they get the appropriate working knowledge. If we fail to provide this foundation for our ICs we share responsibility and need to be held accountable for undesirable outcomes.

Some have derided the expectation that there is such a thing as a good plan – basically suggesting there is too much that is unpredictable to have a good plan. I believe that is baloney. To take their argument to the extreme there would be no need for a plan at all; we would just wing it and react to the situation. My standard for a good plan is one based on available information, one that demonstrates reasonable consideration of safety risks, and one that had a reasonable chance of being effective when formulated. A good plan includes contingencies for unexpected changes of circumstances. A good plan is one that is understood by those expected to carry it out.

Some have criticized the expectation that the plan be followed as “mindlessness” – that such an expectation would lead to increased safety risks. Again I see it differently. Certainly in the dynamic environment of wildfire suppression it is essential that we use an adaptive approach to management. That is what situational awareness is all about. But in my mind that is part of execution of a good plan – deviations from – or more accurately adjustments to – a plan should be driven by “new information.” In the absence of new information we follow the plan. To do otherwise is the kind of chaos or lone-rangering that leads to tragedy.

A few final thoughts on the concept of due caution. Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution always consciously think about and document: their assessment of risk; the steps taken to adhere to the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and mitigate the 18 Situations That Should Shout Watch Out; and implementation of LCES. Line officers who act with due caution practice careful oversight in adherence with the Thirtymile guidelines. I don’t believe this “due caution” threshold is particularly high. Because of the commitment to safety throughout our fire management organization meeting these criteria is the norm.

In closing, I ask that you personally help me communicate this information to your employees. I’m proud of the professionalism they bring to fire management and the invaluable service they perform on behalf of our country. At the same time, I understand the anxiety of those employees and wish to validate the basis of that anxiety. I will continue to share additional information as it becomes available. Please feel free to share this with all of your employees in your unit.

Sincerely,
/s/ Harv Forsgren
Regional Forester, R3

Lobotomy - thanks for translating your original statement. I'm still not sure how it applies to my comments from 2/9 though. At no point did I express the perfection of the WCT, in fact, I made note that it does have flaws but at this period of time it is more relevant than previous tests. My comments were directed to people saying things like "the pack test is dumb...goodbye" (not exact words). I simply was referring to people who complain and then do nothing about it. You apparently are working very closely with people on improving the effectiveness and safety of the WCT. Thank you for that work.

If people just logged on and wrote "Forest Service is dumb...goodbye". I would find that a bit annoying as well. This is not the case for most of the postings, as we can see from things like a bank account being established in Leavenworth and people investing time to create the IAWF online survey. These people saw something they didn't like and they took action to work towards a solution. Kudos.

In regards to me listening to "elders", again in my original posting, I stressed my belief in the importance of TRAINING and education. Obviously if I felt I knew it all I would not be such a big fan of training.

Perhaps there would be more volunteers for Ride-Alongs if the invitation was not preceded by statements involving guns and knives.

TO ALL - My original comments included a touch of sarcasm but perhaps the new Microsoft software lost that in translation. I will be sure to wear all my PPE next time I express my opinions in this venue or for that matter enter my nearby WalMart. Thanks again for the entertaining and informational discussions.

That One Guy

Do we need a (sarcasm firmly planted in cheek)? haw haw. Ab.

"I don't believe it was as simple as the 1971 investigators put it, but they did their best for what they knew back then. On the Mack II Fire, there was a complex set of weather patterns, fire behavior, human factors, stressors, and what is just simply noted best, the unknown....Things we may never fully understand, even though lots of us will continue to strive for understanding them... but will never know the true answers." (Lobotomy, 11/14/2006, They Said)

See also... Lobotomy, 10/01/2006 on They Said (prior to the Esperanza Fire) where many of us got fact checked on a personal basis right in the middle of the chest....

Lobotomy et al

I would like to point out that not all fire departments feel that there is no value in the Pack test. My fire Department not only does it for the season, we also feel it a good way to gauge cardiac fitness. we do it every year, for everybody, after the required medical eval. and having been subjected to both the step test, and 1.5 mile run, feel it a great tool.

what it comes down to is this, If you not going to pt between seasons, not take care of you body, your risking your own cardiac health.

so, until something better comes along, I will take the pack teat until i can no longer pass, and I know that will happen some day.

thanks for the rant
Firerev

Firerev, you're not in socal, but further east. There are many fire departments in SoCal also that do the Pack Test. Ab.

This came in yesterday evening. Good catch. I see this morning that this info is in my local paper and the article finds fault with Bush's budget for the FS. Good work to those getting out the details on how the budget actually translates to the ground. The article even made the point that preparedness decreased while suppression increased and that preparedness is what keeps small fires from getting large. Thanks for educating Congress, FWFSA and theysaiders. Ab.

This is the first I've heard of this entrapment, and I find it very disturbing. There's an awful lot to be read between the lines about issues on this forest, this crew and unit cohesion. Given the background crew & fire situation, the fact that the very near miss was not brought to light for a week really makes you wonder if this is a script from the 'Soap Network' or a modern times fire situation. Very bad juju. These are the kind of scenarios which might have been accepted as were not all that unusual in the 60's and 70's, but are chilling to hear of now.

Old Boot.

Tahoe Terrie

Regarding vfd cap'n response to Lobotomy. vfd cap'n put words in Chief Clayton's mouth. He never said they were not anchored.

I do believe many fires have burned around "anchor points" anyway. The Chief was just saying they saw an opportunity and took it, not a suicide attack. Actually the true definition of Kamikaze is "divine wind" or "god wind"; not a suicide attack.

Engines were there and plenty of air resources, there or on the way in. He was not trading anything but saved acres; for some good hard IA work. Sounded like a consensus from all the Brass and the Engine Bosses too.

The way I see it, with that terrain HUGE safety zone (the black) if there had been a wind shift; which was unlikely. Just needed to hit it before the wind did; as it moved uphill.

Must understand; helo water close, RAAB not to far away; a valley accessible to engines etc.
Gotta know your territory and your IA resources.

ht

(my 2 cents)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tomorrow is the last day to take the IAWF online survey. Read Bill Gabbert's message. Please take it, if you haven't done it already. Let fire co-workers know. Results will be out on Feb 20th.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, Casey suggests it's time to focus again on educating our congressional reps. Read Casey's message. Send him info (cjudd@ fwfsa.org) or call him (208-775-4577) and let him know who (that is, what positions) on your district are applying for other non-fed jobs in fire. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Happy Valentine's Day!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Making professional liability insurance available to fire line supervisors.
2. Working to clarify the law that requires the Office of Inspector General (OIG) to investigation when a Forest Service employee is killed by a burn over or entrapment. (PL 107-203).
3. Laying the foundation for the agency to implement ‘privilege’, which should not to be confused with ‘immunity’. Briefly, this means information gathered during safety investigations can not be made public. The military and other agencies have used privilege and courts have ruled in favor of keeping information private. This will take both internal and external support and will require a culture change (i.e. time), but not a change in law.

These are positive actions; however, I wanted you to know that even if we are 100% successful with implementing these and other actions, the agency can not completely protect you from criminal prosecution. The threat of criminal prosecution is in all careers: military, law enforcement, medical, and life in general. Only case law will define what courts will do with the actions and decisions we make in a very dynamic and challenging situation.

There are many things we can do to improve the working environment for the wildland fire firefighter. For example: We need to continue to provide a rewarding career, a learning environment, good training, and access to help when needed; We need to continue to improve our training courses; We need to work with partners that have the same or similar goals. To that end, I’m currently in a dialog with the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association to help improve the working environment of the federal wildland firefighter.

Issues related to recent tragedies are distracting. Each of us needs to find ways to work through these uncertainties and focus on preparation for the 2007 fire season. Your local Fire Management Officer is a good source for help. I will continue to pass along information as it becomes available, but I suspect the actions the National Office is working on will take time.

/s/ J. A. Kendall Snell
Director, Fire & Aviation Management, Region 6

You state so knowingly that you have never seen a fatal burnover or accident investigation that said that a person would have survived if they were in better shape: I've done a few burnover and fatality investigations over the years (Dude, South Canyon, Cedar Mountain, Buchanan, Sawtooth, Shepard Mountain, etc) and I feel very strongly that in some situations, the physical condition of some individuals contributed to the event. Can I prove it unequivocally: no, that's why it was not written up in those reports. We reported facts, not gut-feelings! For an interesting read, look at the investigation of the "Calabasas Fire" in LA County in 1996, and see if physical fitness may have been an issue in some burn injuries (fortunately, non-fatal).

City Fire Departments aren't doing the WCT, you're right! And their Unions bear much of the credit/blame, since their firefighters are dying of heart attacks while sleeping in their bunks, polishing fire trucks for parades, or directing traffic at an incident. I served on several NFPA Technical Committees in the 1990s, and heard the IAFF Union rep argue that we must re-certify PPE manufacturers every year, but remain immovable on re-certifying his Union members with ANY kind of a fitness test, not just the WCT. Concern about the firefighters, or afraid to upset the overweight, out-of-shape members that paid his salary?

Age is a fact of life for all of us, firefighter and civilian. Bad knees and backs are not caused by a 45 minute test once a year since 1998: if our bodies (yours and mine) don't want to perform now at the same level as when we were 20, maybe we shouldn't be out digging line anymore. Seems like 14-16 hours a day for 14 days is a lot more concern than the WCT, unless a person really "dogs it" on the fireline? I take the Moderate level test and go out as OPS or Safety, 'cause I know this old body ain't intended to cut too many more feet or chains of fireline anymore, let alone miles for day after day!

There was a tremendous amount of input from field fire folks doing the development stages of the WCT, and most agreed that carrying heavy loads (like 5-gallon water bags and/or hose packs) were important parts of the firefighter job, even if it wasn't in your job description. Last I read them, the Smokejumper job descriptions didn't say a word about doing Pull-ups or Sit-ups, yet they've tested for those over many years! Necessary to do the job? Probably.

There's a lot of emotion about the WCT: I'd recommend that folks who are interested and concerned start by following the advice of "A Concerned Firefighter" and COME EDUCATED: read the reports about the development process and the scientific studies that served as background material, then bring your comments to the forum along with suggestions for improvement! Don't destroy your credibility with the first incorrect statement you make.

Dick Mangan

Riviera Mesa Entrapment Report (doc file)

Signed watch your own A$@

vfd cap'n, if I failed to play the middleman appropriately, I apologize.

Re the fire near San Diego: That fire went "out of alignment" and the CDF IC recognized that and hit it. I hope other ICs would be able to recognize such opportunity in the future. Ab.

You asked,

"Were you implying that you think the WCT is not an effective assessment tool?
Or, do you believe that spending money on off-season temp training is not the best
use of funds?"

Neither..... Simply said, the WCT currently has killed people preparing to take and/or were taking the WCT (with or without apparent underlying etiological factors ESPECIALLY without proper PRE- WCT assesments). With 12 deaths so far (Mangan, 2007), more research and study needs to be done to prevent further deaths and create a Work Capacity Training program that minimizes the risks (includes death, injury, and removal of qualified fireline leaders from fireline duties where they can ultimately prevent death, injury..... etc... but their positions have been misclassified as arduous..... when they should have been moderate and ANOTHER accident causation path is made.... and so forth... and so forth.... ).... how is that for a run on....

It is actually a pretty complex problem with many variables.... I wasn't implying anything other than there are significant problems with the WCT program that need more expert peer review than the "one person" who verified and quantified the WCT program beyond what the developer can substantiate.

Lobotomy

"Ed's" can do attitude and agency line scares me..... While filled with messages of hope and longing for the ways "we" have made things safer... His message is factually flawed from the Foundation of his research where the his thoughts for safety began... it is rife with messages that speak of Washington Office talking points that come from the Chiefs Office, the NRE, and the USDA... and eventually the President's Budget that don't factually look at what is going to happen with another budget reduction.

New Forest Service chief gets rough treatment in Congress

"This is a rough and, in my view, a very unworkable budget," said Rep. Norm Dicks, D-Wash., chairman of the House Interior Appropriations subcommittee.

"I feel sorry for you, having to support this 'let's pretend' budget," added Rep. David Obey, D-Wis., chairman of the House Appropriations Committee.

Rep. John Doolittle, R-Calif., called the land sale plan "totally unrealistic" and said, "It's certainly not going to happen in the current Congress."

Kimbell and Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey, who directs U.S. forest policy, said the land sale plan makes several changes from last year. Most importantly, it would ensure than at least half the revenue from the sales would stay in the state where the land is sold.

Rogue Rivers

Indicted fire crew boss misses court date in marijuana case AP 2/13

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_WA_Thirtymile_Fire_Pot.html

Good morning All,

We'd like to welcome Eagle Gear as our newest advertiser and supporter.

Eagle Gear began in 1989 with a great concept for a low-profile pack from a creative smokejumper, Robert Early. Since then, they have made it their goal to provide the most innovative, comfortable, and durable packs in the industry. Backed by a lifetime warranty, Eagle Gear packs and webgear will last season after season. See their newest, innovative products & news on their website at www.eaglegear.com.

Their contact information along with a link to a downloadable catalog are available on the Classifieds Page under Personal Equipment.

Excellent. Ab.

For all you "old timers" watch out for the potential new requirement to have your job applications IN THE HANDS OF HUMAN RESOURCES/PERSONNEL by the CLOSE OF BUSINESS the day the job announcement closes! It wasn't listed all that well in the "how to apply" section: so watch out!

No longer is getting it postmarked and IN THE MAIL by the closing date correct all the time. Be sure to find out before you apply. Good luck everyone trying to get hired this spring: it's gonna be tough!!

Liz in TX

“Shouldn't the jury be "of his peers"? Peer by definition: A person(s) who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age. I could objectively hear the case and arrive at an unbiased decision. (I have served twice on juries)”

Peer by legal definition is not a fellow fire fighter. Essentially it is a fellow American Citizen in good standing and without prejudice. Doctors, lawyers, police officers, bus drivers etc. don’t get a jury of their buddies. For good reason. As you probably know from your time as a juror, it is usually rare to get even one juror with substantial knowledge or background in a trial relating to that area.

Our founding fathers intended that no group get any special treatment in the judicial process. Peers are our fellow citizens as we walk down the street. I submit that the countries that don’t observe that basic premise, as part of their rule of law, are not worth living in.

Fuels Guy

I was curious about your comment suggesting that I was "bringing a knife to a gun
fight". Were you implying that you think the WCT is not an effective assessment tool?
Or, do you believe that spending money on off-season temp training is not the best
use of funds? Thanks for the clarification.

That One Guy

-CITE-
   7 USC Sec. 2270b
-EXPCITE-
   Title 7 - AGRICULTURE
   CHAPTER 55 - DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
-READ-
   Sec. 2270b. Department of Agriculture Inspector General
   Investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths
-STATUTE-
   In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the
   Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover,
   The Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall
   conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall
   not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any
   investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest
   Service.
-SOURCE-
   (Pub. L. 107-203, Sec. 1, July 24, 2002, 116 Stat. 744.)

So there it is, IF the OIG used (relied on) any material(s) produced through
the Forest Service's investigation in order to conduct "his" own "independent
investigation", contrary to this statute, those materials should be deemed
to have been illegally obtained, ie, inadmissible.

Next step... I'm taking a wild stab at it that Special Agent Parker, et al, used
the work product of the Forest Service investigation in order to, at the very
least, have foundational information in order to proceed with their OIG
investigation. Under the "Fruits of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine, "any" evidence
gained through the use of illegally obtained evidence is deemed to ALSO be
inadmissible. If the OIG wasn't privy to, or didn't obtain, evidence and reports
through the proper manner(s), then any of the OIG case material gotten under
the guise of PL 107-203 mandate should stand to be suppressed through
pre-trial motion(s).

Additionally, Miranda, or more specifically lack thereof, might play an
interesting role in the admissibility of statements. In Vietnam, there was the
case of an NVA sniper who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He was
more of a nuisance than anything. The GI's decided to NOT hunt him down,
and instead put up with him, because they were worried that he'd get replaced
with someone who could really shoot. Yes, that one was for "you" Mr. Parker.

Hey! If any of you are able to attend Ellreese's court proceedings, "if" the
court makes a decision that the wearing of Nomex would appear prejudicial to
the jury, you might consider wearing a nice suit, along with your White's,
Drew's, or Nick's, etc. as an obvious but "lower key" show of support. I think
that the press would really run with that.

As always, Stay Safe!

"Kicks"

• Pre-trial: Have the Defense attorney get Parker to play the hot seat on a Tactical Decision Game / Sand Table Exercise as the Incident Commander of the fire. Since he is so knowledgeable about fire ground leadership and confident in Ellreese's guilt, what would he have done based on his experience, situational awareness and all of the dilemmas?
• Make sure all of the well documented distractions, human factors and "What if's" are thrown in by the facilitator/role players.
• Have the judge and each juror take turns in the hot seat.
• Have the jury participate in the Staff Ride that was developed for the fire. The whole thing can be reasonably re-created, even with the actual participants. They will see "things are not always what they seem" when reading an investigation report or 5 years later as memories soften.
• Maybe it's time for the Federal Fire Service to develop something similar to the Military's "Uniform Code of Military Justice" and their Courts Martial procedures.
• Shouldn't the jury be "of his peers"? Peer by definition: A person(s) who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age. I could objectively hear the case and arrive at an unbiased decision. ( I have served twice on juries )
• There is too much at stake for Ellreese and the rest of the fire service, a new approach is needed

makes you think doesn't it?
a student of fire and leadership,

sting

I was going to offer a personal thank you "for all that you do" in Garden Valley last Sept. but you were engaged in conversation with Rowdy. A belated Thank You "for all that you do". With the cold weather, and then the panty fire in the local laundromat, it looked like your business was booming. The Lord, He works in mysterious ways.

Casey,

While the "retroactive" application of Pub. L. 107-203 appears to be a prime argument concerning the Thirty Mile prosecution, there is another key point that I'm seeing. Again, it falls "behind" the retroactive application, the second part of Pub. L. 107-203, specifically 7 USC Sec. 2270c. Submission of Results

-Statute-
As soon as possible after completing an investigation under
section 2270b of this title, the Inspector General of the
Department of Agriculture shall submit to Congress and the
Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the results of the
investigation.

In studying the statute, it does not appear to provide the OIG any authority to "personally interpret" the findings of the report, to make any decision as to remedy, or provide "him" any authority to prosecute the matter. Those matters would appear, under the statute, to fall further up the food chain. PL 107-203, as a Swiss Cheese Model, appears to be mostly air.

On a related matter, in Aug. 2001, I was up on the Colville in Washington state. Having read the preliminary Thirty Mile reports, I spent some time trying to "reinforce" the absolute importance of proper deployment site selection with the "kids". That was gleaning something from the loss of the firefighters. Lessons learned so their losses would not be in vain. These days, when we're in jeopardy of prosecution, firefighters will be forced to "Lawyer up" instead of providing the lessons. That should prove to be the biggest tragedy of all.

Here's something we really need to mull over here on They Said. Over the years, we've practiced "buddying up" in the shelters BUT the potential of having an untrained civilian as an additional occupant hasn't seemed to come up. Imagine a situation on the fireline where it's hit the fan and everything's going south. Now throw in a civilian or two that need "rescuing". Major monkey wrench! As the span of control diminishes, the best option might be to rely on your more experienced people. Sounds good on paper doesn't it? Now, what do you do with the civilians? Obviously, life safety is of prime importance. IF you assign the civilians to certain firefighters, where do you stand if the civilian panics during the deployment while sheltered up? That, with the wrong timing, can lose you a firefighter. Would you give the civilian a firefighter's shelter and then double up a couple of your firefighters? Might be a more prudent (and more firefighter safe) idea? In a water rescue, if the person gets combative, you let them go unconscious and then try to save them (or just knock them out). Maybe we could hit the civilians with a heavy stick in order to "save them". These days it might be worth it, especially if they're going to sue us anyway. Seriously folks, we need to bang this one around.

"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards out of men." Abraham Lincoln

As always, stay safe!

"Kicks"

~~~~via Ken Snell, R6: fyi. From the Ed in Region 5.~~~~

Folks...

We are all aware of the many issues and challenges swirling around fire and aviation management, both nationally and in our own Region. Many of these issues strike a deeply personal chord and we, as the leadership of the Region 5 Fire and Aviation program, have influence to the extent that we can instill confidence that leadership is indeed in place, listening to the concerns of our firefighters, and active in addressing the issues. As individuals and as the Board of Directors we are doing that, despite unprecedented challenges to our creativity and commitment. We are not ignoring the issues or hoping for better times... all of us are engaged in bringing about necessary change. We understand that if there is to be relief, if there is to be an improvement in our capacity to accomplish our mission, we have the collective obligation to exercise the prerogatives and responsibilities we have been given. It won't happen over night, but I am here to tell you it IS happening. Let's spend a moment and take stock of what we and this agency are doing to address some of the daunting issues before us.

The specter of the Elreese Daniels indictments permeates many of our discussions and concerns. There are many unknowns to us, and there are those that are willing to fill the voids with rumor and innuendo. What we do know is that the voice of concern extends from the firefighter on the ground to the highest levels of our agency and Department. It has been heard in the Halls of Congress, and they are sympathetic. We, our new Chief, our Under-Secretary, and our national leadership are working to remove the burden we and those that look to us for leadership are carrying. It will take time, and the end state is presently unknown. If one looks at the facts, there is ample evidence that a positive outcome will result.

On the heels of our own tragedy, individuals and teams stood up to support families, friends and co-workers in a manner that was awe-inspiring. The values we hold dear came through in a most obvious and powerful way. I was humbled and gratified by it all. It is said that tragedy yields to strength, and we have seen ample evidence of that strength. We are united, we are strong, and we are focused on what is right. Beyond dealing with the overt effects of our tragedy, a number of you, your Forest Supervisors, and others have raised the consciousness of influential community leaders and elected and appointed officials as to our concerns relating to the unknowns surrounding accident investigations, criminal investigations, and the like. These efforts have already yielded some fruit, both inside and outside the agency, and will gain momentum as time goes on. As I reflect on the strength and commitment of this Region, I am unabashedly confident in the outcome.

At the same time, there is unparalleled expectation that we do our job more efficiently... that we accomplish our mission with fewer dollars. As the largest program in the country, our efforts and performance are the most visible, we have the largest share of the responsibility to find balance and to achieve efficiencies. We have already stepped to the plate:

• In 2006 we established and implemented a strategy to address long-term fire suppression management. That little document has been used nationally to address and to a degree satisfy OMB and our critics. It has given us more credibility than we could have imagined.
• Our approach to Stewardship Fireshed Assessment leads the nation as a comprehensive and objective means to maximize the efficient expenditure of fuels treatment dollars. As we combine this science with community acceptance of their responsibilities expressed in Community Wildfire Protection Plans, we will see a steady increase in momentum that will protect communities and reduce the risk to our firefighters
• Our decision support capacity is unparalleled, and we have demonstrated our ability to use it wisely. We are being asked to assist the national office as they wrestle with the dilemma of developing an efficient means to allocate firefighting resources across the nation
• We have undertaken the task of streamlining the Regional Office through reorganization and realignment of our efforts to achieve maximum benefit and reduce costs. Already we have identified over $6 million dollars that will be added to the discretionary budget that can be applied on the ground. This effort will well situate us to achieve the latest direction to realign 25% of our RO operating cost to the ground, without creating a crisis
• We are working to reduce the costs of our airtanker operations by reducing the number of bases, yet maintaining our capacity and response times. We are coordinating with our communities and our cooperators to ensure they understand and have confidence in the outcome
• We are leveraging our excellent cooperative relationships to improve our infrastructure at South Ops, while reducing costs at the same time
• We are establishing a renewed cooperative relationship with the line officers of this Region through the development of the Region 5 Line Officer Team. Patterned after the national "LOT" the focus is to develop capacity in the line officer ranks, improve communications, and achieve additional efficiencies

Another issue that has been of concern for some time now has been hiring of personnel. Many of the influences have been outside our control. But despite the difficulties, we are improving our participation, ownership, and commitment... and are focused to overcome our hiring backlog by May 1. While there are still issues of process, there is an obvious commitment to overcome them.

My note could go on for pages to describe the challenges we face and our responses to them. But that is not the intent. What I've provided is evidence that we are united in our commitment to maintaining the best fire management organization in the world. We are blessed with a mission that affects the strength of this nation and the health of its people. We have an awesome responsibility, and incredible opportunity and latitude to meet it. This important mission makes us unique in fire management, and I embrace that. We will respond to these many issues that are currently on our plate and those to come. We will make the hard decisions, be transparent in doing so, and ensure they are focused on protecting our members, maintaining our capacity, and continuing our excellence. Our commitment to every member of this fire management organization is that they will be well trained, well equipped, and well lead. Every individual will be given the opportunity to achieve their goals. Every member of this organization will be able to contribute to their highest level of capability. We will increase our performance by releasing the creative genius of our workforce to exercise their judgment and initiative. We will be guided by sound principles, directed by consummate leadership, and driven by a shared purpose.

These are the facts. I want you to share them, along with your perceptions and expectations, with your people.

Keep your SA sharp...

-ed-

"To provide for an independent investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths that are caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover."

However section 1(a) seems to expand the intent by stating:

"In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service due to wildfire entrapment or burnover..."

Inferences could be drawn that an investigation is required, not just with firefighter deaths, but those of others, perhaps fire ecologists and others. Again, the intent is vague.

Let's face it. The specificity of the law as relating to Forest Service employees demonstrates the intent of the legislation/law being to respond to the needs of the families lost on Thirty Mile. The fact that the legislation/law was written by Washington state congressional folks validates that point. However, given that this issue is even in criminal court should lead those from other land-management agencies to be wary of "motivated" overzealous prosecutors looking to make a name for themselves.

Therein lies one of the problems with this law... it was simply not well thought out and failed to look at the bigger picture.

The application of 107-203 to Thirty Mile "retroactively" is a concern, as nowhere in the law does it authorize the legislation to be applied retroactively to Thirty Mile or any fire. Despite this lack of authority, the OIG Investigator clearly states his reliance on 107-203 to support his investigation into Thirty Mile.

The OIG Investigator also states that he worked "in concert" with the US Attorney's office and I believe you ask how that nexus developed.

The US Attorney's office is also relying on a less publicized statute (at least in the public commentary on Thirty Mile): this is Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 51 Homicide, Sec. 114 Protection of officers & employees of the United States and amended subsequent to 9/11.

This statute in part says

"Whoever kills or attempts to kill any officer or employee of the United States or of any agency in any branch of the United States Government (including any member of the uniformed services) while such officer or employee is engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties, or any person assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of such duties or on account of that assistance, shall be punished-

(1) in the case of murder, as provided under section 1111;
(2) in the case of manslaughter, as provided under section 1112; or
(3) in the case of attempted murder or manslaughter, as provided in section 1113

Let's not be naive. This law, amended post 9/11, is designed to focus on terrorists in this country or those who support such activities. To apply it in the case of Ellreese Daniels is unconscionable, irresponsible, an abuse of the law and stinks of political ambitions on the part of the US Attorney. At the very least, it is an extreme stretch to apply the intent of the law in the Thirty Mile case.

We have offered that assessment to the President and US Attorney Gonzalez in a letter last month. We also have corresponded with Phyllis Fong, USDA OIG on her department's "retroactive" application of 107-203; Mr. Parker's continual reference to his reliance on the Forest Service investigation ( a violation of the law) and actions which he continued to display while on the Esperanza scene.

Further, we have asked her department to define the parameters/policies/procedures it has developed to conduct such investigations under the law and have asked Congress to explain what its intent was in seeking a report from the USDA OIG's office, i.e. once they get such a report, what will they do with it.

All of this has led to the dialogue during last week's Senate Energy & Natural Resources Committee during which Sen. Domenici (R-NM) raised this issue and Mr. Mark Rey, answering for the Administration, offered concerns and recommendations... never mind the same concerns and recommendations the FWFSA took to the Forest Service 2 1/2 years ago and which fell on deaf ears.

So... hopefully this explains a bit on the application of the laws and how the US Attorney & OIG's office seem to be working together on this mess.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

• The R5 travel net license was not renewed for 2007 and the R5 "hotshot" nets.
• "The 5 frequencies everyone is referring to (in the 150 mghz range, i think) were never
  authorized at the national level, for use in any region, which is probably why there is an
  issue with using them." That is correct too.
• The National IHC nets are still useable.
• AM frequencies are going to be available, just not the same ones; new ones will be
  issued. They are not trying to compromise anyone's communication; they are just trying
  to get control over the frequencies that are being used and make sure we are in
  compliance with the FCC.

R5 Dispatcher

This appears to put a huge hole at the organizational level in the swiss cheese model, leading
to an increase of risk to firefighters. And most disturbingly, this would appear to go in the
opposite direction of where the agency should be heading and that is WFU and appropriate
suppression tactics.

With budgets getting smaller, it looks like the only way to efficiently treat fuels at the landscape
level is to let some fires burn. A lot of the nor cal fires ie; orleans, pigeon, bake, had less than
15% high severity. Does anyone know anything about this?

klamathman

Thanks for the heads up. Ab.

From the leadership website, www.fireleadership.gov, check out the new publication "Leading in the Wildland Fire Service" link below the "Updates and New Features" box.
A Must Read.

Also, a link to the Marine Corps University leadership continua as a reminder to see where each individual falls into the picture. Just replace "Marine" with "Firefighter"
www.mcu.usmc.mil/lejeune/ldc.htm, My personal thanks to the U.S.M.C. for letting us into their world.

A great place to start for those Forest Service Line Officers, RO and WO managers who desire to be leaders.

compliments of a student of fire and leadership,

sting

Thank you, sting. Ab.

I have heard through the grapevine that they are into the thousands of responses to the IAWF online survey. Since there are only about 16,000 in the wildland fire workforce nationwide (including Forest Service, BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA; AD firefighters; and "militia"), the more people who respond to this, the better picture the WO, Congress, etc will have for the upcoming season.

Please get the word out to fire friends across the country. Be sure to send it to our essential militia, as well.

I love this grassroots stuff! Thanks to Bill and IAWF.

(Ab, please add: The R5 Director, before he retired, told me that of the 16,000 wildland firefighter workforce nationwide, there are 4,300-4,500 who work in fire from the R5 Forest Service alone.)

Mellie

PS Ab, could you please post again the IAWF Director Bill Gabbert's message:

We want to thank everyone who has already taken the survey about the fallout from the Thirtymile fire legal issues. The response has been overwhelming. If you have not taken it yet, be sure and have your voice heard. The last day to take it is February 15. The survey can be found at http://tinyurl.com/yo7nj6 More information is on They Said and also on our web site at www.iawfonline.org/ in the "IAWF News" section. If you don't take the survey, you don't get to b*tch about the Thirtymile fire situation. :-)

The results of the survey will be available February 20.
Bill Gabbert
International Association of Wildland Fire

Ab note: I emailed the posters who contributed to the frequencies thread in an effort to find out what is the truth here, since R5 Comm and Boise Comm seem to be telling different stories. Let me say that there is no "bad guy" here. There is simply a question asked and answered by several people and they've been told different things. [Educational message for Jaime who asked about latent systemic or organizational problems some time back: In my opinion, confusion over communication frequencies might be an example of a "latent systemic problem" that could affect firefighter safety if allowed to persist, that is, if not clarified before you need the frequency.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Hotshot Dad:

Ab,

My money is on this being a rumor. I suspect someone,
somewhere got spanked and threatened with the age-old
"$10,000 FCC fine" for using an unauthorized
frequency. User programmable radios can lead to
"bootlegging" a frequency, for whatever reason.

The FCC does not go around "yanking" frequencies. It
just does not work that way. Re-allocation is a long
process with hearings ad-nauseum.

I would think the NIFC Communications Duty Officer
would be aware of any such action as that office
coordinates and assigns incident frequencies at the
national level. This office also assigns
Communications Coordinators to support a specific
geographic area.

Hotshot Dad

Rogue River said...

"trying to keep the C in LCES",

I talked with a someone in the Regional Comm Shop... They then contacted the FCC directly.... neither the Regional Comm Shop from Region 5 nor the FCC have any knowledge about what you are talking about.//
*Both the FCC and the Region 5 Comm Shop says the frequencies were not lost and are still available for use.... just simply a rumor*.....
Any more info to contradict this??? If not, let's call off the dogs.

>"Rogue River",

>Your response to my post seems a bit harsh, don't you think? It feels as if you are posting a rebuttal in a debate. I have simply posted information that I have in response to some earlier posts on the board. Given that, I don't see the need for hot words to fly about it.

>I pasted my original post in below, with a few additional remarks. Perhaps a second look will make clear exactly what it is that I have to offer on this subject.

From R5 Dispatcher

Re Concerning Frequencies:

"Not only have crew freqs been retrieved by FCC, R5 (Pacific Southwest Region), Travel Net has also been retrieved. FCC is tightening the usage of Freqs big time this year. We are trying our hardest to keep the AM freqs for IA right now with the radio shop in Boise"

>This quote is not mine. It is one of at least two prior posts on this subject, both of which spurred me to look into this. In fact, one of the posters screen name definitely lent some credibility to the statement. Perhaps I should have credited the original poster, and for that I apologize.

All quotes (indented text) from "trying to keep the C in LCES"

AB,

I was extremely concerned about this when it was first posted. Couldn't imagine why they were taking this critical tool away from my crew. So I spoke with the folks at the comm shop in Boise (National Interagency Incident Communications Dept.) about this.

>I never said that I spoke with the R5 comm folks. Only with the National Comm shop, where the National IHC crew nets come from. The regional comm shop may or may not have been able to answer the question that I was asking. I never asked them since I found the answer to my question at NIICD.

They stressed the need to make a distinction between the 5 frequencies that were in use in R5, and the National IHC crew nets.

>I am of the opinion that they stressed this distinction only in order to determine whether or not they where able to correctly answer my question.

The 5 frequencies everyone is referring to (in the 150 mghz range, i think) were never authorized at the national level, for use in any region, which is probably why there is an issue with using them. However, the 4 National IHC frequencies where authorized, and are not subject to FCC removal.

>This last piece is as close to word for word as I can recall from a 10 minute conversation 2-3 days ago with the National Interagency Incident Communications Dept.

Before anyone jumps on me about this, send an email to the comm shop. They were quick to reply, and happy to answer my questions.

>Rogue River, I hope that your information from the R5 shop is true. I hope they know something that the National shop was/is unaware of. I hope those frequencies are still available for use. This job is hard enough these days without worrying about FCC violations to go along with every other concern.

trying to keep the C in LCES

My thanks "C" for the time you took to look into this and the time you're taking to clarify. Communications are critical. If Boise Comm and R5 Comm are not on the same page in their reporting of available frequencies, we need to know well before we need to use them, so alternative arrangements can be made. Alternatively, if this is a rumor and all is as it was before, we need to know that. Clarifying such issues is what this board is about. I hope that someone (not necessarily you "C") will call Boise and get them to provide the definitive word on this. Ab.

Nice message. Ab.

"A legal defense and employee assistance fund has been established to provide financial support to Forest Service employees (current and former) who need assistance to respond to administrative and criminal charges."

Checks should be made out to "Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund"; put the account number (1000110690) on the check and send to:

Account No. 1000110690
Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund
Cashmere Valley Bank
PO Box 249
Leavenworth, WA. 98826

Special Note: for active USFS employees, please DO NOT distribute this fund-raising information within internal email systems, as it would be an inappropriate use of government equipment. That said, for those of us outside in the private sector, it would be OK for us to send to FS employees from our home/personal computers.

Thank you for considering helping Ellreese; having friends and support is an incredible force.

Take Care All,
Heather
Retired USFS
Private Citizen, Colleague and Friend

I don't know the process south of the 49th. I do know one thing though, our competitive nature doesn't allow us to target 45 minutes, it pushes us to be "better than buddy". Hey dudes and dudettes, target 44 minutes and leave yourselves that 1 minute safe zone.

Smokedawg

Several things: first, it's not ALL Fed firefighters that are covered under this law; just USFS firefighters that are killed in a burnover/entrapment. Seems that Senator Cantwell and Rep. Hastings didn't give a damn about the NPS, F&WS, BIA or BLM Federal employees that might die when they passed this Federal law!

Second, the Law says that the USDA-OIG will conduct an investigation independent from the USFS of the event, and issue a report to Congress and the Sec of Ag - - - not Alberto and the boys at the Department of Justice who hire the US Attorneys. Doesn't say that the USDA-OIG has to have investigators that can spell "fire" let alone understand wildland fire suppression operations!

So, you ask incredulously, how did the US Attorney in Spokane (who's rumored to want a Federal Judgeship) and USDA-OIG Special Agent Parker get involved in a fire that occurred more than a year BEFORE PL 107-203 was signed into law? Inquiring minds would like to know too? As us old military types would say..." a target of opportunity"? Fire at will.

Mollysboy

Title 18 Law, post 911. They wanted part of the action? Ab.

Thanks yactac. Even I was getting confused. Ab.

My only comment is that this kind of fed law is so unique that a regular pli lawyer might not understand how the game is played. Ab.

A few comments about Personal Liability Insurance (PLI) and the non-Federal responder. I've been looking into the same thing for my agency in light of my personal responses on a Fed team. MJ, the link you posted lists the rate for Fed employees, not county or local government. Any idea on prices for those agencies? Is it the same?

Someone recently posted that the OIG investigation is not triggered by a fatality on a Federal responsibility fire, it's triggered by the fatality of a Fed while on a fire. To my pea brain, that means that should you have a large incident in your jurisdiction and a Fed strike team gets burned over there is going to be a criminal investigation. Possibly if a Forest Service engine gets in a wreck on the way to your fire there will be a criminal investigation. That should be a concern to all agencies anywhere that run automatic or mutual aid with the USFS. Local chiefs should be up in arms and working through the political systems themselves to have the law rewritten.

Fish

One poster some time back said the ADFA made an agreement with wrightandco for professional liability insurance. If true, other deals are likely to be struck. Contact them and ask. Ab.

"Not only have crew freqs been retrieved by FCC, R5 (Pacific Southwest Region),
Travel Net has also been retrieved. FCC is tightening the usage of Freqs big time
this year. We are trying our hardest to keep the AM freqs for IA right now with
the radio shop in Boise"

AB,

I was extremely concerned about this when it was first posted. Couldn't imagine why they were taking this critical tool away from my crew. So I spoke with the folks at the comm shop in Boise (National Interagency Incident Communications Dept.) about this.

They stressed the need to make a distinction between the 5 frequencies that were in use in R5, and the National IHC crew nets.

The 5 frequencies everyone is referring to (in the 150 mghz range, i think) were never authorized at the national level, for use in any region, which is probably why there is an issue with using them. However, the 4 National IHC frequencies where authorized, and are not subject to FCC removal.

Before anyone jumps on me about this, send an email to the comm shop. They were quick to reply, and happy to answer my questions.

"trying to keep the C in LCES"

haw haw.

The S-290 CD-ROM might have been removed as an item you can order from NIFC, but it still shows up as an allowable course in the December 2006 version of the NWCG Field Managers Course Guide. This means it can still be presented in this format. I agree this isn't the best way, but with declining budgets, some of us just can't afford to send everybody off forest. This is not your regular self-study, a supervisor still has to oversee the course, administer the unit quizzes, and the Final exam. It's not the best way, but it does give us another option in the tool box.

-MJ

Glad you made it OK. Genetics are also a big factor. Ab.

On the subject of S-290 -

The cd-rom was removed from the NIFC publications catalog in November, 2006. Several regions have increased the classroom 290 instructor requirements to needing an IMET to teach the weather units.

It took us 6 months and 4 agencies to get approval for use of a National Weather Service IMET for our 290 class this week - going from Pueblo to Kansas City to Denver to D.C. to Boise, and finally the blessing sent back to Pueblo. On the other hand, we have students from New Mexico and Arkansas enrolled in the class.

290 and several other 200-level courses aren't just for local delivery anymore.

vfd cap'n

Go to www.wrightandco.com, they have all the info on Professional Liability Insurance. They only charge $292 per year, from April to April, and in the USFS, we get reimbursed for half if we buy it a year at a time, for those who supervise in our regular jobs, though there is movement to include those who have supervisory Red card quals. It is a 1 Million dollar policy for liability, $10 grand for Identity theft, and 10 grand for Accidental death or dismemberment. $292 for a year doesn't seem that much anymore to feel better, most folks can make that in one or two days on a fire. It helps me to sleep better at night now that my Agency wouldn't back me if something bad happens.

-MJ

#1 The WCT. My complaint is: Quit complaining. It seems like everyone always says the same thing "I don't like the pack test." Or something similar to that. In a perfect world we would have a perfect work capacity test. The reality is, we don't live in a perfect world. If we made our test more difficult (like the Canadian version with hose and pump carrying) then people would complain, Oh it's too hard. Right now I would venture to guess that most people feel it is too easy. The objective of a "test" is to measure the aptitude, understanding, or the ability to perform a certain task. In the pack test example we should determine what is the objective. We are not required to wear heart rate monitors and it is not a timed event (in the case of a race for example; someone who completes the race in 35 minutes is faster and therefore better than someone who finishes in 40 minutes). The desired outcome is to finish the test in less than 45 minutes, period. So the objective is: walk 3 miles and do not die. Most of the time the desired result is found. Unfortunately, there have been a few fatalities and that is extremely tragic. I feel terrible for the folks who have mentioned in They Said - they would like to continue doing the pack test but their hips and joints won't allow it, the deserve to be on the fireline. On the other hand, I feel that if the requirements (time, weight, and distance) were relaxed or loosened then we would be getting other people passing the test and put in to service and putting other physically fit fire fighters into danger. I have witnessed several people who did not pass the WCT. In the examples I witnessed, it was a good thing, they did not deserve to be on the fireline. As far as the comments about a moving scale for weight (i.e. a 130 lb. person carrying less weight than a 200 lb person) - that doesn't solve anything. On the fireline when gear is getting divided up would you say excuse me - I only need to carry two lengths of hose because I am lighter? No. A pump, a saw, and cases of MREs do not come in different weights for different people. 45 pounds is not a lot of weight. Five gallons of water in a pack, a few rolls of hose, my dog, all these things weigh about 45 pounds and it is not unreasonable to ask someone to carry this amount of weight over a FLAT three mile distance. Instead of just complaining about how lame the pack test is why don't you suggest an alternative? This test is just a basic evaluation. Other crews such as smokejumpers, hotshots and some rappel/helitack crews have additional, more strict testing that they complete. Someone who is going to drive a tender shouldn't need to meet the running requirements of a smokejumper. These crews realize that the WCT is just a basic test and they test for more real world scenarios with their own supplements. The WCT is best option we have at this time.

#2 Paying for temp training. I want to say Congratulations to the Las Vegas employer (whoever it is) for paying for their temp employee to travel to Washington to obtain some S-290 training. Yes, there is an approved S-290 CD-ROM but sitting at home on your computer with a disc will not give you the same learning experience as sitting in a classroom with other living and breathing firefighters. I could stay at home and download videos from YOU tube and learn how to snowboard without ever seeing snow - but I guarantee you that if I paid a little money and got training from a paid instructor at the ski hill I would be a much better snowboarder in the end. It's bad enough that a temp employee doesn't get health coverage, retirement, or the respect they deserve - do you really need to take away the training too? I personally have spent over $4,000 of my own money (as a temp) to attend training in the off season. It's disgusting that I had to do that. I'm glad I got the training but I think the government should spend more on their quote "temporary" employees. If you treat something as temporary then don't be surprised when it disappears.

Much respect to all those firefighters out there - thanks for all the good discussion. Training is never a waste of time - Complaining for the sake of complaining, is.

P.S. - This will be my 12th fire season so I have done a few pack tests. I don't enjoy the shin-splint inducing walk either but I throw some extra weight in my pack and try and get done as soon as possible just to get it over with.

Signed, That One Guy

Welcome to posting. Ab.

At a recent meeting we were told from our Forest Supervisor that the R-5 Regional Office plans on hiring the same way for the meantime, and no changes in these hiring practices will be implemented until the transition to Albuquerque occurs. Yes, to Albuquerque, NM. We think it's bad now, just wait.

Mater

To Ellreese,

What can we do, as fellow firefighters, to help you? I, too, was b*ned by the agency, not as bad as you're getting it, and I still carry some resentment after almost 20 years.

In reference to the posting from the trail person from the 30 Mile Forest, yes, they will tell you their hands are tied by powers greater than themselves and, they're right. But, how did it get to this point? Who are the powers? What does this mean for the rest of us who are firefighters/fire managers? This charge of manslaughter is a big deal and Ellreese's life will forever be changed, again. Is he being held up as another example? Is there a message that the "Powers" are trying to convey to the wildland firefighting community? What?!

Is there a fund set-up for contributions for Ellreese's legal expenses?

Thanks for listening
old gal

HERE's what Heather found out we can do for Ellreese. There's a Legal Defense Fund set up at Cashmere Valley Bank in Leavenworth WA. If anyone has the exact info for donating to that account, please let us know. Ab.

Signed... 2 cents

Why would you fly a temp to WA from Vegas for S-290 when the CD-ROM self-study
version has been approved for use in both the 310-1 and the 5109.17 for at least 2 years
now? This is what we use for our temps that do not get the classroom course.

-MJ

I'm familiar with the work of Maslow and Kubler-Ross. Thanks for reminding me. I'll look up some of the others on your reading list, and I can recommend Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. It's a thought-provoking book, and gives a lot more information about so-called "human-factors" than is ever discussed in fire training.

Part of my own riled-up-ness is because I work on the Forest where 30 Mile happened. Maybe things seem more intense here because we're closer to it and have felt some of the fallout sooner. I've had good conversations with the FMO, my supervisor, and district ranger, and wrote to the Forest Supervisor about my misgivings about getting a red card this year. To their credit, they have all listened. The F. Supervisor has been going to all the districts to talk to us and answer questions about Ellreese's trial. I finally understand more about what is going on, and the conclusion is that it's extremely political. It's in the hands of the courts now, and Ellreese has a lot of fortitude to go through with it. He deserves all our support. As far as my other issues with the fire organization, I've been promised that the discussion will continue and maybe we can work on some of it at the Forest level. That's encouraging.

Being on the trail crew makes me a second-string firefighter. With the fire budget going down, second string seems a little more important this year. I wonder how it's all going to shake out? Those of you going through the competitive sourcing study have my sympathy--we did it a few years ago, and it's one of the more demoralizing things I have ever been through. But the work in the woods doesn't go away. Sometimes that has to be what keeps us going.

A Dirt Person

When you fly a 1039-TEMP from Las Vegas to W.A. for a S-290 class, that does
not seem very cost effective?

Signed my 2 cents hard at work.

Brushboy

I think people would be more outraged with this process and with the people
running it. But most of us in the system know that the "Civil Rights
People" are some of the most incompetent people in the agency. Heck my
district has gone through five investigations this last year and nothing came
out of any of them. The statement made to us was we can get rid of one
person or we can let ten go, well so far six people have left and three
more have multiple apps out. These people care about nothing more than
numbers to meet their quotas, oh sorry "goals". I hope the next group of
people that are doing the hiring have better luck because my app is down
there right now, hopefully it hasn't been lost.

Billfire

Hey all, Is it just me? Bruce and Paula Hagemeyer, the two civilian campers from the Thirty Mile Fire got paid $400,000 in their lawsuit settlement. When we rescue people off the top of a mountain, etc., if anything, we send them a BILL ! Hell, that fire shelter should have qualified as a "high rent district". I guess that the settlement must make it easier for the Hagemeyers to count their blessings, especially when each "blessing" has some money stuck to it.

When any of you are communicating with politicians, or press, etc. in reference to the Thirty Mile, this irony might be pointed out.

As always, stay safe! "Kicks"

Way to go R-5, this is not good for anyone who wants to hire on the basis of "fit for the job," and to
think I was so foolish to believe the quota hiring system was a thing of past times. Whatever happened to
hiring "the most qualified?"

. Region 5 Plans to Voluntarily Continue Many Provisions of the HSA

58. In anticipation of the February 13, 2007, expiration of the HSA, the Region plans a smooth
transition of programs, policies and procedures affecting its outreach, recruitment, applicant flow,
mentoring, and selection processes. This transition realigns HSA programs and processes under the
leadership of the Civil Rights Director, who reports to the Regional Forester and Associate Regional
Forester. The Region made a significant investment in these programs and believes that most of them are
having a positive impact on increasing Hispanic representation.

59. At this point in time, the Region plans to continue, in substantially the same format, most of
the HSA provisions and remedial measures. Specifically, the Region will continue to maintain a
full-time Civil Rights Director position, a fulltime Regional Recruitment Coordinator position, as well as
provide sufficient resources for both positions. These positions will continue implementation of the
Regional Outreach and Recruitment Program and engage in outreach and recruitment activities. Region 5 will
also continue to (1) recruit from SCEP; (2) follow Forest Service directives and policy on Workforce
Planning; (3) provide EEO training in accordance with USDA requirements; (4) collect and maintain applicant
flow system data and provide systems support (i.e., AVUE and the Region 5 Applicant Flow System until all
applicant flow data is captured by a single automated system); (5) extend the Outside Recruiter contract for
an additional year; (6) offer the Mentoring Program to all permanent employees regardless of length of
service, including SCEPs, as well as continue the Mentoring Program Manager position; and (7) fund the
expanded Central California Consortium in Northern and Southern California for a five year period, as
reported in its June 2006 Report to the Court.

60. The Region plans to continue several HSA provisions and Orders with some modifications under
the leadership and oversight of the Civil Rights Director: (1) advertise Region 5 positions
government-wide and externally (DEMO) for all non-Line Officer positions, and in accordance with the Forest
Service Merit Promotion Plan and USDA guidelines; (2) advertise Region 5 positions multi-grade and
interdisciplinary, where appropriate, and in accordance with the Forest Service Merit Promotion
Plan and USDA guidelines; and (3) review recruitment and promotion action results.

61. Although not required by the HSA or the Court’s remedial measures, the Region plans to continue the
Regional Selection Team process of centralized hiring selections for all positions GS-12 and below non-Line
Officer and all Federal Wage System positions for the nineteen administrative units in Region 5.

SC

Well CB

guess I left out one thing on my comment about the Pack Test. I am 55 years of age and a little old for fighting fires the hard way now. The test bums me that it hurts the knees and ankles (not the heart) to take and when I was younger it would not have been a problem at all. The USFS will cut you off at 50 years of age anyway for the fire line but contracting a Tender is a different story. I just like hitting the fire with water still in my old age and you have to do the pack test to spray water on the fire or your stuck with filling engines and keeping the dust down. Oh to be young again but I still have a few years left on the fires even if it is only driving a Tender and bringing the young bucks water to help put the fire out with!

Tender R6

"Life is not tried
it is merely survived
if you're standing outside the fire."

Join the fight...get get inside the fire

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Photo

Noname

I think the discussion regarding the Pack Test is pretty interesting. I'm also on the small side at 125lbs. While 45lbs isn't the most comfortable weight for me, walking for 3 miles on flat ground isn't bad at all. Give me 30lbs and make me go up a hill, and that's when the problems start. But if you take a look at all the gear, hoses and tools you carry up a mountain during a fire (with heat, smoke, lack of sleep, etc) I think the pack test doesn't even compare to the work we do. Has it killed a few people? Sure, but how many of these people would've had a heart attack at home, playing basketball with the kids? I think anyone planning on fighting a wildfire shouldn't have a problem taking the pack test. But maybe we should question whether there's a better way to test?

CB

socal ff

Hey all...

This article is a sad and sobering reminder of what
happens when nobody gets held accountable for
firefighter fatalities...There's a good quote in
there..."When a cop dies, it's a crime scene. When a
firefighter dies, it's a good funeral." For all the
potential abuses of the system (wrongful prosecution
years after the fact, witch hunts, excessive personal
and professional liability), I think the wildland
world is moving in something of the right direction;
away from the culture that firefighter deaths are
inevitable.

Nerd on the Fireline

This is the same article Misery Whip pointed to a few days ago but his emphasis was on the latent system design problems. Ab.

To answer your question, what happens when the Suppression Budget
runs out? That's when the shell game really begins. It's what they call
fire borrowing. Used to be, the agency would borrow funds from KV or WCF
(pots of dollars that had been collected to accomplish certain tasks) then
congress would pass a bill to replace it. Awhile back, I think 5-6 yrs
ago, congress refused to replace the borrowed money, and those funds darn
near went broke. Now when the $ run out, the agency has to borrow from
other appropriated funds, so essentially all work stops, no contracts are
let and all money money goes to pay for fire suppression. Not a good way
to run a business..................

TC

Good morning All,

Thanks for the very interesting info on FS fire budget. What I wonder is... say the suppression money the FS has earmarked for FY 2007 is $741 Million. When we reach that Suppression expenditure, if no more money is forthcoming from Congress, do we then just say, "OK, that's it, everybody home, end of the season?"

At some time we need a financial arrangement such that fire expenses do not dip into other Forest Service programs to get paid back later. This is a business-like arrangement. If the public wants the protection, congress must allocate for fire. If the budget for fire suppression is exceeded, there's no one to pay for it, suppression ends.

OK, so define and pay for suppression until the $$ runs out. What about Preparedness, Hazard Fuels Reduction, those PRE-Suppression costs? It's cheaper to spend money to have the resources available to pick up starts on IA than to contend with EA or large fires. Will we pick up all lightning and arson starts? No. But better to pick up more than fewer because we don't have engines on the forests when the lightning busts come.

Mellie

"5. Ensure that Incident Commanders on Type 1, 2, and 3 wildland fires
have no collateral duties, except for those of unfilled Command and General
Staff positions as described in the Fireline Handbook (FSH 5109.32a)."

The entire document can be found at:
http://fsweb.wo.fs.fed.us/directives/html/fsm5000.shtml (internal fs web)

There are no restrictions on collateral duties for Type 4 & 5 Incident
Commanders that I'm aware of.

TC

There's an excellent website on Just Culture that those interested might like to check out. I was going to send it in last night but the connection kept timing out, possibly because of too many people downloading its Just Culture "Criminal Edition" newsletter_janfeb07.pdf

This is a very interesting read. Other groups that need to maintain a learning environment for safety sake are confronting the same issues as fire and are sharing ideas.

That newsletter is presented in the context of nurses and pilots; but very applicable to wildland fire. We do have fire people taking this approach to Safety Investigations so Safety Culture/Learning Culture will become the norm.

My favorite part of the 7 page newsletter: Professionals Facing Criminal Charges — A Threat to System Safety?

excerpts from several articles:

Professionals Facing Criminal Charges —A Threat to System Safety?

“The criminalization of unintentional human error.” That is what many observers called it. After all, there seems to be universal agreement that Julie Thao did not intend to harm her patient. Shown below is a very simple anatomy of an adverse event that helps explain the contributions to a simple human error and its resulting adverse outcome.

system design ----------->|
                                         |  human error -----------> adverse outcome
behavioral choices  ------>|

A person makes a mistake that causes an adverse outcome. The person involved had no intention to cause the adverse outcome – that is why we call it a human error. The error is “unintentional” by definition. Behind the human error in this simple model is what we in the Just Culture refer to as the two manageable inputs – the system we designed around this person, and their behavioral choices in that system... [go read more]

No Criminal Acts? What’s in a Policy?

Criminal. It’s a familiar term. We’ve been raised to believe that criminals are the ‘bad” people among us. We look at those being criminally prosecuted as having “evil intent.” As our principal article expressed, criminal law now no longer requires “evil intent.” Many criminal laws, and multitudes of federal and state regulations, make simple human error against the law... [go read more]

Thanks to friends who sent me a copy. I am glad it is circulating behind the scenes. We all need to educate ourselves on this and work to make it so. More investigations along the lines of Just Culture and Peer Review are necessary.

vfd cap't, test next week! (tongue in right cheek); nerd on the fireline, I know YOU could ace this now!
Tom Harbour, Ed Hollenshead, others in high places, test on Friday; politics left at the door (tongue in left cheek)

Mellie

If anyone has problems with downloading the pdf newsletter, please let me know. Ab.

Welcome BCM-R5.

Small Agency AFMO

I’ve been reading all the latest posts and im sorry that it has come to this.
I work for CDF, ( CAL FIRE ). I am glad that the state hasn’t come to
this type of CR**** we are all in it together. Sometimes it’s about
firefighters. We are in one of the same. Let CALFIRE know what we need
to do to help. I would be glad to try something.

Thanks

CDF @CAPT

I am twenty years old and since I was eighteen I have been putting applications in the Forest Service trying to get a job with them and just this past week I got a call from three different districts asking me if I wanted a job with them this summer and I said yes. What are the chance of me getting a job with them this summer? I have already taken the Basic 32. If you can't answer this question could you please refer me to someone who can. Thank you. KN

I replied that all he could do was try, no guarantees. Got this back.

Sorry to bother you once again Ab, But I went to a Forest Service station and was told that the hiring won't be until the budget comes. Do you know when the Forest Service is supposed to get their budget for California? KN

Anyone have any info for him? Ab.

"I am not the greatest at understanding all this FTE stuff so if someone who does can take a look at the budget proposal on the FS web site and take a peek Appendix E, specifically page E-2 and clarify what the numbers are saying I'd certainly appreciate it. Thanks in advance."

Basically, an FTE is the equivalent of one full-time worker. It is often expressed as 1.0 for a full time employee working 26 pay periods per year. A 13/13 employee (6 months/year) counts as a 0.5 FTE.

I am also very concerned. The Forest Service FY 2008 budget proposes a loss of 3,592 FTEs from the Wildland Fire Management Program.... or so it would seem with a cursory look.

In FY 2006, there were 13,502 FTE's and for FY 2008 there will be only 8,893 under WFM ....... but wait, to help muddy the waters, the FS created a new budget line item called WFF (Wildland Firefighters).... under that scenario, it would appear that we are actually gaining 3,200 Wildland Firefighter FTE's.

But when you cut through the smoke and mirrors.... the Forest Service is proposing a net loss of 392 FTEs. This can be interpreted as the following, depending upon where the budget cuts are going to be made:

1) It could mean that 392 Permanent Full-Time Employees will be unfunded, or
2) It could mean that 784 13/13's will be unfunded, or
3) It could mean that 784 temporary wildland firefighters working a full 1039 would be unfounded, or
4) It could mean that 1,176 temporary wildland firefighters who only work 4 months a year would be unfunded, or
5) It could mean any number of combinations of unfunded positions, or
6) It could just be another example of the Forest Service relying upon suppression expenditures to bail out the Wildland Fire Preparedness program....

Hope that helps,

Higbee

Todd

I apologize for leaving much of that undone mierda in the pannier for you... doesn't feel good to know that issues one spent so much time on are still nowhere... Unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that when you pass the panniers, much of the current baggage will still weigh them down.

On a good note... there is life after the FS. I miss and worry about the troops, but do not miss the endless lies and lack of leadership one iota. You are correct... Loyalty is a two way street and the Forest, RO and WO types would do well to get their side moving.. One can only lead up so long without support....

yactak

Yactac, now don't you be hurrying him up as you rest against your surfboard down in Baja between waves. We still have 4.6 years of him unless he gets a better offer! Who knows what can happen in that time... "another week older and deeper in debt"... don't get me going again! Besides, he needs to attend the Chiefs meeting and fill us in. Ab.

Chief, you're part of us here. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Don't be a stranger whatever you decide to do. Ab.

You be raggin' on the fine poetry/ song making here? "Professional humor"??? Haw haw. Ab.

Here it is:

US Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Message from the Director
February, 2007

In my last message I talked about the feasibility study of Aviation and other Airborne Activities.
I want to touch on this study again as it is moving out and you will be hearing a lot about in the
next few months.

After a year-long effort by a lot of you folks and leadership, the Aviation Feasibility Study is
complete and was accepted by my boss the Deputy Chief for State & Private Forestry in
December 2006. After reviewing the study, I’m pretty impressed. I believe this document is the
most comprehensive in-depth product we have as a source for program information and, more
importantly, a useful guide for the future. The study not only fulfilled the Forest Service
requirement to examine potential work areas for private-public competitions, but it also provides
an array of recommendations encompassing every facet of the aviation program.

So here is what happens next. The study is in the hands of the Chief, Regional Foresters, Station
Directors and other leadership for final review and comment. Once the comments are back it is
up the Chief to make the final decision on which recommendations she wants implemented. I
expect she will issue a letter with her decision in March.

If the letter directs us to complete any competitions or business process reengineerings (BPR) we
will have 12 months from official start to initial decisions. If there are any recommended
improvements in ways we do business, such as contracting or staffing changes, we will have 24
months to get these done. An interesting point here: the Forest Service Competitive Sourcing
Program Office has the oversight to make sure any tasks we are assigned get done and on time so
there won’t be any wiggle room.

I will be calling on you to provide your expertise on any MEO Teams (Most Efficient
Organization), or to help if we need to do an Agency Tender (our in-house bid) if work is
competed. If we need to do it I know I can depend on you to step up to the plate for the good of
the aviation program because you know the missions better than anyone and are the best in the
business!

While a lot of the focus seems to rest on potential cost savings and rightfully so, I really think
that any of the recommendations we implement will make us stronger, safer and more efficient in
our aviation program. That’s everything I know right now. Keep your eye on the ball, head in
the game and be safe.

Tom Harbour

Being a federal employees we are not able to strike against the Federal Government, so let's strike against Washington State whenever they have a fire, since Washington State is the one that charged our firefighter.

We can thank the Forest Service and OES for the campers suing the Forest Service. Let's talk about making the case for them by charging our firefighter.

According to the Forest Service we are Forestry Technicians, not professional firefighters, so should a Forestry Technician be making the decisions a firefighter should be making? Therefore, should he be held accountable?

SGM

We can't strike against against anyone or any state. It's not the state's fault. I agree, how strange and demeaning to be called Forestry and Range Technicians... I hear your frustration.

I think

• if we continue to get the word out via FWFSA to legislators, local and national;
• if we support Ellreese and all who work and hake honest human decisions within their positions;
• if we get out the word and encourage firefighters to fill out the IAWF survey, we have more hard facts;
• if we demand that fire have a Just Culture so we can foster a safer Learning Environment;
• if we focus on systemic factors that need to be corrected to make firefighting safer,

I think we can effect change for the better. When our agencies leaders don't seem to step up to leadership as fast as we want, it's up to the true professionals on the ground to do it. That's us. We're working at getting the info we need to make the picture more clear to those who can help, skipping the agencies. There is action taking place behind the scenes.

We're strong as a group. Hang in there. This is a work in progress. Ab.

I just found this forum, and am relieved to find people who are as angry as I am... I went on my first wildfire in 1982, but am probably not going to get my red card this year because:

1. Ellreese Daniels case--what happened to personal responsibility for one's own safety? What happened to plain old bad luck? Any of us could be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Mistakes were made at 30 Mile, but it's wrong to make one guy the scapegoat and destroy his life.
2. Pack test--the taxpayers pay for me to drive an hour and a half to get a phony physical exam from a contractor so I can walk on the flat with a heavy pack on for 45 minutes. If I have a heart attack doing that, the government can't be sued. But I don't need any exam or test to do my regular job, which consists of putting on a 30 pound pack and hiking up hills with a chainsaw day after day. Seems to me that the taxpayer's money could be put to better use than physicals and pack tests.
3. The new fire shelter--we are trained to avoid entrapment, but they want us to carry a heavier fire shelter. Hm.
4. The System--I've been a FFT1 since 1989. They didn't have any record of me being an ICT5 (even though I have certificates of training, and can name the fires I went on), so I had to do the task book. I wanted to be a FOBS, but after 8 years couldn't get past the single resource boss hurdle. I seem to get passed by people with 3 seasons of experience. I gave up and turned in my incomplete task books last fall.
5. NIFC training materials--these are just awful. Learning can happen when instructors veer away from these, but they are not designed for how most of us learn. They waste a lot of time. We should be teaching critical thinking and woods sense. Not checklists.
6. Online training--Something about FEMA before I can get a red card? Again, the taxpayer's money could be put to better use. The public expects TP in the outhouses and windfalls off the roads and trails.

I always loved the firefighting part of my job, since I had that first whiff of smoke years ago. I like how it pulls people together, I like seeing what nature can do. I love being with a good crew, and I like the paycheck. But it's not fun any more with all these hoops to jump through. If I jump through 'em, I'll feel like I'm selling out to a culture that's going in the wrong direction. I'd be complicit in stupidity. All these hoops are meant to cover everybody's butt but mine. I'm sure the FS would hang me out to dry in a heartbeat should something bad happen on my watch. We could make things better if we wanted to, but I don't see that happening. It's too bad. I'm going to miss fire a lot.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

A Dirt Person

Welcome Dirt Person. Doesn't sound like venting to me, but a reality check. Ab.

Jose had just completed his first season as a firefighter on PNF Engine 30
on the Feather River Ranger District and had a promising career ahead of
him. He left behind a fiancé and an unborn child. Services will be held
this Friday in Reedly, Ca. Our thoughts and prayers go out for this young
man and his family.

Friends on the Feather River

Condolences. Ab.

OK, so he's a good old boy former timber lobbyist. He was appointed.
He has friends in high places. Does he have a different set of rules?

Another one of Brownie's ilk??? Throw the guy out!!!

Mop Shot

No cover up here. We think Congress is working on it. Ab.

"Since Schmidt was fired in 2000, the CDC program has not hired another fire safety engineer. It has safety and occupational health specialists performing the firefighter investigations. Several do have experience and training as firefighters.

Schmidt said the underlying problem is that in 1998, Congress handed the CDC a role it hadn't asked for and may not have been trained for.

"They would spend a lot of time talking to the firefighters … and then they would write the report," he said. "… They would come back to the office, and say, ‘Which firefighter do you think was the most credible one there?’ — and benchmark everything against what that firefighter said."

Looks like our structural friends have the same kinds of problems we have with our investigations. Congressional relief is overdue.

Here's the link to the story:

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16991877/

Misery Whip

sting

Wow. Ab.

"The measure - authored by Sen. Jim Battin, R-La Quinta and co-authored by Assemblyman John Benoit, R-Palm Desert -- passed its final hurdle in the California Senate today. Battin said he expects the governor to sign the bill by mid-week. It's possible the governor will come to Riverside County to do so, he said."

Hopefully the Governor will suspend with the pomp and circumstance of Bill signings.... and just sign the bill ASAP...... I am sure that both Assemblyman Benoit and Senator Battin would understand the importance.... A follow-up visit by the Governor would probably be appreciated after he signs the bill.

I have heard that the families are really tired of all the public ceremonies, but they really appreciate all of the hard work done behind the scenes in both the United States Congress and the California Legislature..... It was an awesome job by a lot of people with a common goal.... The Governors visit should be personal and from the heart.....

Noname

President's Forest Service Budget Proposal Demonstrates Cluelessness... At Odds With Congress

While the Senate last week wrestled with the ever-increasing costs of wild fire suppression and looked for ways to rectify the problem, the Administration has taken the opposite approach by responding to the escalating fire costs by proposing to throw more money at it by increasing the suppression budget by 23%.

So much for any incentive for the Agency to reduce suppression costs!

Sadly, despite common sense suggesting that investing in preparedness will reduce suppression costs, the proposal appears to call for significant reductions in preparedness FTEs. It should be noted that wildland firefighters is a new appropriation for FY 2008.

I am not the greatest at understanding all this FTE stuff so if someone who does can take a look at the budget proposal on the FS web site and take a peek Appendix E, specifically page E-2 and clarify what the numbers are saying I'd certainly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Counting the Days, I am sorry to hear you're retiring soon, but I understand.
We will miss your wisdom. I will miss your support... and knowing you're out there working with the kids.

As for your questions, we all have "what if" questions like those. I have gotten questions from people involved in several old fatality fires (Storm King and another) wondering if the DOJ will go back that far and charge them as criminals. How many of us have made mistakes in our past... The most recent questions I received along these lines were from an agency that might be interviewing old retired and retiring fire dogs, wondering if interviews aimed at preserving fire history and wisdom could put the interviewee and/or their coworkers at risk for criminal lawsuits. Crazy world, eh?

Don't be a stranger to theysaid, my friend. Does this make you an old fire dog? haw haw Ab.

Extreme drought... Tetons, Yellowstone, West Texas, Minnesota, more. wow.

Appropriations Watcher

Fallen firefighters bill on CA governor's desk

www.pe.com/breakingnews/local/stories/PE_News_Local_D_webfighters1.cb7065.html

A bill that would distribute more than $1 million in donations to survivors of the five firefighters killed in the Esperanza Fire in October is now on the governor's desk awaiting his signature.

Senate Bill 41, the California Fallen Firefighters Assistance Tax Clarification Act, exempts the contributions from rules that prevent tax-exempt organizations such as the United Way from giving so much money to a small group of people.

The measure - authored by Sen. Jim Battin, R-La Quinta and co-authored by Assemblyman John Benoit, R-Palm Desert -- passed its final hurdle in the California Senate today. Battin said he expects the governor to sign the bill by mid-week. It's possible the governor will come to Riverside County to do so, he said.

for more, check the link

Ab,

I know passage of the CA bill was posted here, too, but here's an
article from the same Idyllwild Town Crier ... good news:
Assembly eliminates state tax on Esperanza gifts

Now for the other news:

Johanns Outlines President Bush's FY 2008 Agriculture Budget

B.C. firefighters caught in Australian pay row

Air tanker base moves to Santa Maria CA

Ron Altig
Gorge FMO

Oyler hearing set for March 19
www.idyl.com/pages/stories/story2.html

FWFSA testimony (doc file)

Please go to the IAWF survey and take it, if you haven't already. (Info and survey links are above.) It is imperative that the info on the outfall of the 30mile law (P.L. 107-203) gets sent from the ground up.

I heard over the weekend that on one NorCal forest, a very large proportion of its mid-level fire staff have applied to CDF or to county/city fire departments. These people are in the same category where we have a lack of applicants now, because no one is trained and experienced enough to fill in (supts, squaddies, captains, DIVS, ICT3) and because the hiring process is too cumbersome. I didn't have the presence of mind to write down the numbers or their red card certs. I am seeking those now to add that detail to this post. I did ask if those seeking to leave knew about the IAWF survey and was assured fire management had sent out an email. This survey info is the kind of information we must get to congress. I hope that people -- even those who are making moves to leave -- will fill out the survey.

Given that we had 3500+ people signed up on the hotlist forum alone prior to going to our new format, I am sure that we will have large numbers of responses to the IAWF survey. I expect in the thousands. It takes only moments to do it. I am now getting emails from the east coast indicating that some round-robin mailings to fire folks are getting through to those eastern folks via fire email channels. However, I heard from someone this morning who was at a southeast meeting in the last few weeks: when he asked if the issue regarding criminalization of firefighters was on their radar screens, they replied that it was, and many of them simply weren't going to come west to participate next season. Those folks did not know about the survey. We need to let them know.

Please, if you know wildland firefighters in the east, southeast, and across the nation, send the information on the survey out to them. Send it also to PIOs, fire finance folks and "militia". Send it to ADs and EFF. Get it to FS, BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA firefighters, etc including firefighters on interagency teams. Best way to get the info out is to send them the link to IAWF Executive Director Bill Gabbert's informational post (or copy and paste it into the email) and to the IAWF survey (http://tinyurl.com/yo7nj6). We must have some way to quantify the problem so we can alert the WO and our Congress and our Public before fire season rolls around in earnest.

Ab.

Ab note: Please keep the behind the scenes support going for Ellreese and all of us. It's good to see that Linda is doing her part to pass on info that keeps people up to date.

As discussed yesterday, Jim attended the arraignment for Ellreese Daniel to support him and all firefighters. Wanted to share Jim's note.

Linda Goodman
Regional Forester, Pacific Northwest Region

----- Original Message -----

From: James Boynton
Sent: 01/31/2007 02:02 PM
Subject: Yesterday's arraignment

Yesterday I was able to attend the arraignment of our employee Ellreese Daniels in federal court in Spokane. Ellreese was present with his attorney, Christina Hunt. The federal judge advised him of the charges against him; 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter and 7 counts of giving false statements to a federal investigator. His attorney entered a plea of not guilty on all counts, on his behalf. A new judge was assigned and a trial date was set for March 26. Ms. Hunt indicated the trial date will likely be delayed until sometime later this year. After speaking with Ms. Hunt, I’m confident in her ability to defend Ellreese against the charges and believe she will serve him well.

There were more than 20 Forest employees, retirees and friends of Ellreese there to provide him support and he was extremely appreciative of their presence.

There was also a considerable amount of media present. I was pleased that I was able to share with the media our support of Ellreese and the far-reaching negative impacts criminalizing of fire fighting decisions has had on our workforce and ability to effectively respond to incidents.

We will continue to keep you updated as things unfold.

Jim

Date: February 2, 2007
Subject: Fire Liability and Safety
To: National Leadership Team

On January 30, 2007, Mark Rey, Under Secretary, Natural Resources and Environment, testified before the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources on fire cost containment. Senator Pete Dominici (R-NM) questioned him on how the administration would improve the focus on firefighter safety. Mr. Rey’s answer was well received by the committee.

Mr. Rey outlined these actions are needed:

• Work to amend PL 104-208 sec. 636 to allow fire line supervisors to
  receive the same reimbursement privileges enjoyed by supervisors and law
  enforcement officers for liability insurance.
• Work to clarify PL 107-203 to reflect that the independent
  investigations are conducted to obtain lessons learned and are separate
  from appropriate administrative and criminal investigations.
• Work towards the implementation of protocols in accident
  investigations to help firefighters have the confidence to provide complete
  and candid information so that these investigations can serve to improve
  our risk management practices.

Completion of this work will require action by Congress and the Administration. In my judgment these actions will enhance our safety program and move the Forest Service towards a culture of risk management.

As your Chief, I have always been committed to our firefighters and our safety programs. I hope these recent developments serve as evidence of my support.

/s/ Dale N. Bosworth
DALE N. BOSWORTH
Chief

Everyone who is affected by the hiring deserves an explanation and to have some folks accountable for putting together a process that does not work.

Signed,

Let's get the hiring back to the Forests

Heck, we'd always lose a couple lads to the scurvy bout a half hour in. We'd have to step over their carcasses with a fussy cougar on our backs. Still no complaining. Sure was nice when they let us wear boots and do it in the daylight too. Still though, us old guys figgered the new youngins' had it way too easy.

Well I could go on and on but I have to get to work. I run a grizzly farm here in the northwest and we've got an artificial insemination project on the go and we boys are takin' a break to reattach a few limbs before gettin' back at 'er.

Have a good one!

SD

haw haw.

Lotta talk
Swampy walk,,,

Mop up... Cold trail
Fire boogers... Never fail

Groundpig, the poet

Good one. Ab.

Always fill out the paperwork.

I was humpin' the track, doin' the WCT.
Piss pump on my back, set a pace to see.
My knees were fine, my back was strong
Thought I was a winner, but, boy, was I wrong.

Ya load 45 pounds, whad ya get?
Crank up the pace and out goes the hip
Dispatch, don't ya call me, cause I can't come
I gotta nurse this sore hip, now ain't that dumb?

(My rhyming ability is minimal; nothing about your long term injury, which is significant...) Ab.

It was nice while we could get 044R's for $450 a pop and an 066R for just over $500. Last time I checked an 044R would run us around $635 at the local saw shop, (the same shop who would receive and service our GSA saws). I believe Huskaqvarna still has a GSA contract. Why is it we try and fix what is not broken?

I live by the motto "trust the tried and true and validate and try the new and innovative". Hows that for a combi?

sc (see cutter)

7107

7107,
Theysaid Burnout

You fight fires all week, whad ya get?
A whole week more tired, whad ya bet?
My family keeps a callin, but no dinner bone,
I owe my soul to this digital tome.

Ab.

You load 16 tons what do you get?/ Another day older and a deeper in debt.

OK here's how you sing it. Replace the song's original words with mine. Now sing along with me.

I was born in the smoke when the sun wouldn't shine,
I picked up my combie and I walked to the line,
We cut 27 chains before 3 o'clock,
And got hit in the A** with a slurry drop.

You fight fire all week, whad do ya get?
7 days older and a deeper in debt,
My wife keeps a callin but I can't come home,
Cause I gotta milk this fire till it's dry as a bone.

If you see the flames a comin, you better step aside,
Alot of us didn't and alot of us died,
It's got one flank of Iron, and the other of Steel,
If the right one doesn't get you, then the left one will,

You fight fire all week, whad do ya get?
Another week older and a deeper in debt,
My wife keeps a callin, but I can't come home,
Cause I gotta milk this fire till it's dry as bone.

Thats all folks.

Add any verses or make edits as necessary,
I hope to hear you singing this summer.

Lucky Lindy

Nice. Ab.

Instead, I would suggest that there are already several investigative groups out there to fill that role, and are capable of doing it much better that the USDA-OIG.

First, Fed OSHA has the responsibility to investigate the on-job deaths of all Federal employees, and have been doing so on wildfire burnovers since 1993, including South Canyon, Thirtymile and Cramer (and I'm sure on Esperanza, too!).
There is also the Congressionally-mandated investigations that the NIOSH group has been doing since about 1998 on ALL firefighter fatalities (structural, wildfire, whatever). Their reports are at www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/default.html. The problem with NIOSH is that they are underfunded and understaffed, but they ARE fire professionals who can do a better job than the USDA-OIG folks who spend most of their time in grain silos and slaughter houses.

Make NIOSH whole, and then hold them accountable to produce a quality report in a timely manner. Don't give special Agent Parker another excuse to come into our world!

Mollysboy

Ab, sorry to create such outcome.

Let's take me from the top, You can post this if you want, but it is mainly for you. Never got involved with the fire service until I was 50, jumped through the hoops and got red carded at 64, maintained it every year since. Yes I am with a Vol. Dept. And only carry a basic red card. And one of reasons I continue to do so is what I was taught before I became involved with the fire service, "LEADERSHIP" by example. If I do the pack test, then no one who is younger than me can complain about it.

No, I have not cut that much line, or humped that many hose packs. But I do know if one of our units rolls up on your fire that they will have a certified Eng Boss on it and all the crew is red carded and most of them EMTs or ParaMedics.

My background where I took physical beating was 20 years in the United States Marine Corps., to include 3 tours in Viet Nam, 1 with a Recon Bn, 1 with a Inf Bn. and 1 with a Inf Reg Hq. I have humped a lot places there, stateside and various other little no longer known brush fires. Smoke is bad we all know that, but agent orange didn't do us much good either.

I am dam*d proud of my Service then and now. Also that I can still do the WCT. No treadmill, I do run on the street at 0430 also have a home gym. You have My Email feel free to contact me. Publish in any way you want.

The Old Man of the Dept.
USMC Ret

Thanks for the good reply. Leading by example is critical. We should each strive for that. You should be proud of your service. We are. Also glad you survived to help us out with fires here at home. Carry on. Ab.

One question. Is there any data out there on the number of FF’s who have sustained injuries while taking or training for the WCT.

Olympic Engine

Problem with this test, it is not fair to all. I can do over 100 sit ups and still do more, 25 pull ups no problem, 50-75 push ups, no problem either. I can climb a 30 ft rope without using my feet. Now I only weigh 125 lbs and big guys will say it is because I am light that I can do this and they can't! Well if the test was "fair", the weight you carry would match the amount you weigh. 2.7 times 45 lbs is my weight and using this math formula, a 195 lb person should carry 72.2 lbs to have the same effect on them for the weight as 45 lbs has on me. Adding 45 lbs to a big guy does not test his heart near as much as it would me. That is just like having me do 25 pull ups compared to a guy who weighs 195 lbs doing them. It is not the weight so much as it is the short legs and the speed/time required to do this test for someone my size. I have to take a lot more steps than a tall person does, so really my test is much harder. A tall person should maybe do another mile further to get his wind up like mine will be. This test is not about carrying the 45 lbs for 3 miles, it is about how fast you can carry it.

Now for the 70 year old guy who has never worn out any parts on his body, it must be nice to have led a life that spared your body, but I worked construction for 38+ years and never owned or used a tread mill. I get my exercise at work but also took a lot of years off my knees and ankles. Moving real fast is a little harder on these old knees and I hate to just take more years off them to prove they can haul 45 lbs around real fast! So I guess I won't be able to contract a Tactical Tender this year for the USFS. I will still fight fires on my off days as a Volunteer Wildland Firefighter and contract as a regular Tender 'cause the test is easy without the 45 lbs!

Tender R6/US Army also

COMMUNICATIONS

Tahoe Terrie

Not only have crew freqs been retrieved by FCC, R5 (Pacific Southwest Region),
Travel Net has also been retrieved. FCC is tightening the usage of Freqs big time
this year. We are trying our hardest to keep the AM freqs for IA right now with
the radio shop in Boise.

R5 Dispatcher

Ditto on the thanks to Volunteers. Ab.

Thank you for the links on Fire Investigation. I have my reading cut out for me now!

Domaque.

" In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover OR IN PREPARATION FOR FIREFIGHTING, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service."

yactak

I feel like you're bragging to the choir here, Old Man. You may be operating on a level playing field, but the rest are likely operating in the mountains. I guess I'd want to know

• how many seasons did you cut line on a hotshot crew?
• for how many hours night and day?
• how many chains of line did you cut, hunched over a pulaski?
• how many jumps did you make into the backcountry where you then had to pack ALL your gear out afterwards?
• how many hosepacks did you hump up the line day in and day out?
• how much smoke did you suck for how many years?

Many wildland firefighters do such joint-wearing, cancer-creating work for their entire careers. Did you? A treadmill and jogging on a track are not the equivalent.

What's the highest redcard rating you hold? What kind of wildland fire experience do you have? I'm glad you're old and in great health and continuing to work to keep yourself fit. That's excellent. Many firefighters I know have and are doing the same with different results, because of their years of body-wearing service. My guess is that your background does not compare with many experienced career wildland firefighters who have put their bodies on the line for all of us and whose wildland fire expertise we continue to need. Brains or brawn? It would be nice to have both, but we need experience (brains) to keep the pups safe while they grow, experience wise, into middle management positions. Abercrombie.

Aberdeen,

So the 310-1 says:
TFLD - Arduous
STEN - Moderate
STDZ - Moderate
STPL - Moderate
STCR - Arduous
DIVS - Arduous

Nice to know as I get to old to lug that 45 lb pack around the track I can step down from ICT3 and DIVS and be a STEN/STDZ/STPL and still get my hazard pay. But I do recall back in 1997 being on a fire east of Darby Mt. on the Bitterroot NF and meeting a STEN working with a strike team of RFD engines from ID. He was an USFS employee and it had been 5 years since he had been on a fire. The local FMO had convinced him to help out with taking the RFD engines and STEN-t. He was assured it would be an easy assignment cause they were Type 5 eng. His strike team was tasked with putting in a hose lay to support the hand crews. Last time I saw him he had a Mark 3 pump on his back and headed up hill.

Midwest Fire Guy

You are both a breath of fresh air in this crazy job of wildland firefighting!
I have had the opportunity to talk to Ken in person and read Mr. Mangan's
posts, and I will tell all how much of a difference it has made to a burnover
victim. I feel like there is support out there!

Thank you both for your work! You guys are truly ahead of the curve!

-brushfire

I ask the question again like I did a few years ago (and never got a true answer) because to me the official record of fire fatalities (and cause) is flawed. I think this is a question that needs to be answered. Whatever the cause, heart attack heat stress Etc, Was the person that died taking or preparing for The Pack Test? Lets fess up! Is the government sponsoring a test that has a history of fatalities every year? I think so! Prove me wrong! I agree the test is a good measure of physical fitness, (although I don't agree with the 45 lbs. thing) I take it every year and pass. But I will tell you, my wife is well versed in what to do if I happen to die preparing for or taking the test, and I think it is just a matter of time before a spouse, mother or father takes the federal government or the test administrator to task on this issue in a court of law.

Sign me,

interested in the facts.

The biometric study from Storm King is dead, the company could not get the
extra funding that it needed. The SKM did get a grant but the grant hand to
be matched by other funds.

RR

1. The pre-trial hearing is set for March 13, 2007 at the Federal Courthouse in Spokane (time TBA);
2. The judge hearing this case will be the Honorable Fred Van Sickle (FYI - he was previously a Chelan/Douglas County Superior Court Judge);
3. It is absolutely appropriate for interested people to come into the court room.
4. The trial is set to start on March 26th, but his lawyer will be asking for a continuance until October 2007;
5. Tina will probably not know until March if the continuance is granted, then she will let us know of changes;
6. Finance questions - all of Ellreese’s court related costs are paid by the Public Defender’s Office;
7. Other finance questions - Ellreese will need financial assistance for incidentals (days off work, travel, overnight stays); court apparel; and if he wants his family brought to Washington for the trial. (For those interested in helping further, we’re setting up a Legal Defense Fund at Cashmere Valley Bank in Leavenworth).
8. Ellreese truly appreciates any and all support offered; the cards and letters are very important to him; as was the good showing of people at his hearing.

An aside, from my perspective of being at the Arraignment Hearing: There was a decent showing of about 20 of us; it was very significant, I’m glad I took the time to go. But, it was an awful experience, “chilling”, to hear the US Attorney read criminal charges against a USFS employee. I can only imagine how Ellreese is feeling.

On the good side – the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Supervisor, Jim Boynton, showed first-rate leadership by attending, and then, in interviews with media. In a note, he said,

“I was pleased that I was able to share with the media our support of Ellreese and the far-reaching negative impacts criminalizing of fire fighting decisions has had on our workforce and ability to effectively respond to incidents.”

Finally, my heart goes out to the family and friends of our lost four (Tom, Jessica, Karen and Devin) on 30-Mile, as it does to the survivors. There is not a day that those closely associated with 30-Mile do not remember their lost four comrades. It is a tough time for all; we need to help each other through this. Thank you to TheySaid for this important and professional forum.

Sincerely,

Heather Murphy
Retired USFS Wildlife Biologist-Resource Advisor, Colleague and Friend, (02/02/07)

Thanks, Heather. Good support and leadership counts for a lot. Ab.

Brush Boy

If it means showing up, announcing across the hood that you are going to do a certain thing and getting a nod from somebody, then a check-in happened. But if “checking in” involves receiving a briefing and giving information to the IC about the arriving resources (pretty critical I think to establish accountability) then it didn’t happen.

Lesson Learned: During IA or transition it’s a challenge to maintain control and communication with arriving resources. Checking in properly upon arrival is very important. Checking in requires an exchange of information between the arriving resource and the appropriate fire manager (IC or delegated person). Information about the arriving resource needs to be given and a briefing needs to be received with adequate information that will allow the new resource to operate within the 10 orders and mitigate the 18 Watchouts. We are all responsible for following the 10 and mitigating the 18.

NWRG

In fact, the 30mile Review reports how little sleep the crew had prior
to entrapment/deployment. Sleep research shows that people having
the crew's level of sleep deprivation have reactions and thought
processes that are the equivalent of those who are legally drunk.

It's no wonder strong work-rest guidelines came out of 30mile, along
with leadership training (thanks Jim Cook) and lessons learned
regarding fire shelter deployment.

Good review of the incident at the MTDC site and excellent lessons
learned.

Mellie

www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/
username t-d
pw t-d

The Bill is expected to go to the Governor sometime on Monday.

In case you haven't seen.
Take Care, JH

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CA Assembly Approves Battin-Benoit Effort to Help Firefighter Families
Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:53 pm (PST)

SACRAMENTO – The Assembly this morning unanimously approved Senate Bill 41, the California Fallen Firefighters Assistance Tax Clarification Act, authored by Riverside County legislators Senator Jim Battin (R-La Quinta) and Assemblyman John J. Benoit (R-Bermuda Dunes). The measure now heads back to the Senate for a concurrence vote, and is expected to reach the Governor's desk as soon as Monday.

Assemblyman Benoit presented the measure on the Assembly Floor, saying: "As a former volunteer firefighter, public safety commander, and past president of our local United Way, I am very pleased to be in a position to offer whatever assistance I can the families of these brave men. These firefighters were true heroes, selflessly giving their lives to protect others, and we owe their families our gratitude, our prayers and our full support."

On January 18, the Assembly approved Benoit's measure, Assembly Bill 108 (Benoit), the California Fallen Firefighters Assistance Tax Clarification Act, by a vote of 76-0 on the same day that Senator Battin's SB 41 cleared the Senate. Both bills, which are nearly identical, allow for the disbursement of over $1 million to the families of five firefighters who died while battling the Esperanza fire in October. Last week, Senator Battin and Assemblyman Benoit united their efforts behind one bill, SB 41, in order to move it to the Governor as quickly as possible.

After the October fire, over $1 million was donated to the families of the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters. The money was to be distributed by charitable organizations including the Central County United Way and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, but distribution was postponed when the outpouring of support exceeded specific documented needs. Nearly 5,000 contributors pitched in, in a surge of support for the firefighters' families, raising money in elementary schools, radio talk shows, and Beanie Baby sales.

Congress acted quickly and approved the Fallen Firefighter Assistance Tax Clarification Act of 2006 (HR 6429, by Rep. Mary Bono), providing an exemption to the IRS rule that stalled the distribution. The federal law ensures that the non-profits will not lose their tax-exempt status when they distribute the money. A similar exemption allowed the collection and distribution of funds to families who lost loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

Assemblyman Benoit represents the mountain community of Idyllwild and his district includes the battalion headquarters of the five brave firefighters who perished in the Esperanza fire last year.

“On the day of the battle, naked lessons are lying about everywhere and can be had
for free. By the next day, they have already begun to put their clothes back on.”

I’m fairly certain this is just an approximation of the real quote. The point is, as time elapses, individual memories of events subtly change. There is nothing sinister or criminal about this, it is just a very normal human tendency to remember and portray events in a way that casts the best light on the storyteller.

Another point to consider; after the fatalities occurred, anyone who was even peripherally involved with Thirtymile had excellent motivation to distance themselves from Ellreese in any way possible.

I encourage you to get off this person-based approach you seem to be stuck on and look more at the organizational issues that preceded this incident. Instead of going back and rewriting history, you should be looking forward to help insure that future accidents are investigated by trained professionals who understand the information processing limitations of human beings, and who are permitted to delve into contributing organizational influences. Too much time and memory and anger has passed under the bridge for THE truth about Thirtymile to ever emerge.

If the ENGB in question was wrongly portrayed, he has my empathy. But checking in at an incident is still a good lesson regardless of whether it happened or not. The important point is whether it makes people talk and think about checking in and getting briefed on every fire, not who did, or did not, fulfill their responsibility in this particular circumstance.

Another quote for you, from George Herbert:

“Follow not truth too near the heels, lest it dash out thy teeth.”

Misery Whip

Point taken. I understand your feelings. Ab.

"The Chief's Principal Representative (CPR) will assist the assigned Agency Administrator as well as the next level of administration. In working with the local agency administrator, the CPR will be assist in the development of the delegation of authority, review and provide oversight to the development of the wildfire situation analysis (WFSA), and challenge incident management teams and local leadership to develop and execute more effective incident management. In short, the CPR will bring national perspective to fire management."

"The CPR will advise, provide counsel and recommend actions to the current staff, and if needed, the CPR will have the authority to act for local agency administration in order to achieve a greater national goal."

If you read through the lines, it appears that "Big Brother" will be watching, and if needed, replace the local agency administrator (line officer) to meet national goals.

Higbee

2007 National Incident Management Meeting

i have no thoughts on type 1&2 ic's. type 3 is much
different, and i think you know that. i'm not saying
that the line is perfectly clear. but for argument's
sake maybe we should make task force leaders or strike
team leaders moderate, or engine captains, or
helitack, or smokejumpers, or.......so on and so on.
where should the line be drawn? i don't make policy i
just have the opinion that having physically as well
as mentally capable firefighters is a bonus.

i'm just curious, has anyone ever failed the moderate
pack test? please God help us all.

jd

"It is crucial that we focus on the mission of the upcoming fire season and resist temptations to get distracted. Today’s workplace environment offers ample chances to get distracted. We must sustain our focus in a “safety-first” environment that minimizes risks of injury or death and maximizes the effectiveness of fire suppression. Firefighter and public safety is Job One, period. All incident personnel must be vigilant so that safety is never compromised for any reason."

Your own region 2 has the worst record of support for fire management. Why do region 2 forest "Leadership Teams" have the power and ability to cut their own forest fire management organizations to a level that will compromise the safety of fire management personnel to perform the fire management job? The experienced fire management officers who have strongly voiced disapproval of these plans have been ignored. The so-called "leadership teams" are comprised of "Leaders" who have no fire experience or fire qualifications and completely disregard the advice of those fire management officers who do. How can this be? I have been an FMO in region 2 for over five years and I 've never even seen you! I have written you letters to voice my concerns over inexperienced line officers and the lack of support for fire management programs in this region. I have never even had a response. Region 2 does not have a good record when it comes to support for fire management programs. How in the hell can inexperienced politicians have so much power? Don't talk safety unless you mean it. You've been disengaged too long!

If safety as you stated is "Job One" then put your money where your mouth is!!!! I can tell you that this is not the priority in region 2. The San Juan is cutting its own fire management program and completely disregarding safety as any priority at all. Where is the leadership? Stand up and make yourself known. Some forest "Leadership Teams" have no fire experience whatsoever yet they make policy of their own accord while completely disregarding any and all advice from experienced and knowledgeable fire management personnel.

Region 2 is long on mouth and short on support. Safety and the total and complete unwavering support of our fire management personnel is critical. Tell me Mr. Boche, Where is it?

Ramona Joe

www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/

username t-d
pw t-d

JG

I read through the slideshow yesterday. Some good lessons. Ab.

If it's true, do we know who got it, one co. or many?

Todd

2007 National Incident Management Meeting

Lots of meaty stuff there that shows how the reduced budget will be changing fire management and firefighting.

There's good info on fire law, which was why I was researching - to see if there was anything new on the internet.

I especially recommend Mike Johns powerpoint on fire law. It's a fattie to download, but excellent info.
Mike spoke at the R5 Chiefs meeting several years ago. Good talk.

Fire Law powerpoint, very large (~17,300K)

Another ppt, psychological info, fairly small: Managing Expectations (~200K)

Have fun browsing, something for everyone.

Mellie

"...to allow both our firefighters and our partners the full measure of both lessons learned and any appropriate administrative or criminal charges."

I'm probably more than a little jaded, but what bothers me is the misinformation that the FS presented as the Thirtymile "lessons learned" for the last five years. One of those key "lessons" that I learned (and taught others) was about a free-lancing engine boss who re-engaged a fire without checking in with the IC.

I wonder if privilege is for the benefit of firefighters or an agency which says, "That's our story and we're stickin' to it."

vfd cap'n

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

vfd cap'n, what do you mean by this? It's not clear. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

According to the official FS investigation report and the Thirtymile staff ride on the Fire Leadership website:

"Around 15:30 both engines, #701 and #704, arrived at the fire, and drove past the Entiat Hotshots and the Northwest Regular #6 Crew where they are eating lunch beside the road. Neither engine checked in with the IC (or anyone else) for a briefing...." www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/lsr4_stand3.html

That's a pretty key point (what, not who) in the entire sequence. If the spot fires hadn't been attacked, then the NWR #6 crew would have still been disengaged at the lunch spot when the fire took off.

Maybe the Oral Reply Team was right, that it wasn't their job to bring new disciplinary action against Daniels for the false statement. But, somebody in the Forest Service should have had the duty/respect/integrity to make the public correction when they found that ENGB <snip> had indeed checked in.

vfd cap'n

Will send more info when I've got it... I believe this is the first of two public review comment periods for updating the March 2003 NIMS policy document before a summer release. Would be interesting to have some more wildland folks have a look at the thing and any issues, gaps, etc. In reality, this document is now what NWCG and FIRESCOPE are supposed to align with so this is a good opportunity to have some input if interested. Hopefully they'll post a process how to send comments in.

-office slug

No disrespect, Mr. Boche, but you'll have to excuse me if I remain somewhat skeptical that all the things you say will become reality the next time one or more USFS firefighters are killed on a wildland fire.

For example, you state that "When our firefighters act within the scope of assigned duties in a reasonably safe and ethical way free of gross negligence, the Forest Service will stand with them." Reading your statement and applying it to Thirtymile, I'm assuming that the official USFS position is that everyone involved, except Ellreese Daniels, met your criteria? The attempted Administrative Actions against many of those involved with Thirtymile says otherwise! Putting that point aside, you make it sound like the USFS really has the power and authority to "stand with them". I question what will really happen when an angry spouse/parent of a deceased firefighter gets their Congressman/Senator to pressure the Chief, Mark Rey or a politically motivated and ambitious US Attorney (who may be looking for Senatorial favor to become a US Judge??) to take action, or in the case of the USFS, to sit on its hands with their mouths shut while another employee is charged with manslaughter.

You also tell the field fire folks that "We will distinguish between acceptable honest errors and unacceptable willful violations". Using the standards that OSHA has for "willful" violations, the USFS has been cited for "willful violations" on numerous fire fatalities since the 1993 Buchanan fatality, yet no one in the upper levels of USFS management (line officers or fire people) have ever faced criminal charges, or even a slow down in their upward mobility!

The final element of your 3 key principles says that we should take action that "MINIMIZES risks of injury or death", but then you follow up saying that all personnel "must be vigilant so that safety is NEVER compromised for any reason." Sounds like conflicting direction to me: in my experience of 30+ years, the only way to insure that safety is never compromised for any reason is to implement the "NO ACTION" alternative by staying on the road and waiting for the rain and/or snow to put the fire out.

I wish that your words, and the words of others that are finally coming out, could convince me to grease up my White's and pack my Red Bag for the coming season. I'm afraid, however, I remain unconvinced, and so will implement my own personal "No Action" alternative for the 2007 fire season or until the critical issue of firefighter liability is resolved satisfactorily.

Mollysboy

Final National Incident Commander/ Area Commander Group 2006 After Action Review (.doc file)
 

Wonder how everyone will feel about this one:

• Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.

noname

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Management Efficiencies Fact Sheet
January 29, 2007

• Over the last 20 years the Forest Service has been persistently challenged by fire management costs.
• Contributing factors to these cost challenges include climate changes, the expanding WUI, and general forest health conditions resulting in larger more intense fires.
• In 2006, fire suppression expenditures accounted for 40% of the Agency budget or $1.5 billion.
• In 2007, 41% of the Forest Service budget is allocated to fire management, and in 2008 that percentage climbs to 48%.
• Because of these escalating costs, other Agency programs are suffering and our ability to care for the land and serve the people is compromised.
• Various internal and external groups have studied these costs and have provided over 300 recommendations intended to curb increasing suppression costs if implemented.
• The Chief directed a small group of Forest Service subject matter experts to review and consolidate these recommendations and develop actions the Forest Service can take over the short and long term to support sound decision making and ensure prudent choices are made when spending. The resulting recommendations have been titled Management Efficiencies.
• These actions were categorized into Leadership, Operations, and Management and when implemented serve to ensure the following.
  • Clear and concise understanding of Appropriate Management Response – choosing the best suppression strategy for the resources and values at risk.
  • Expanded Knowledge, Skill, and Ability for Agency Administrators responsible for managing large or nationally significant fires.
  • Increased oversight from the Regional and Washington offices on incidents of national significance in support of the agency administrator.
  • Severity funds are used within limits.
  • Establishment of a definite budget for each incident (use of SCI).
  • Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.
  • Revision of the current aviation strategy ensuring the safe and financially prudent use of firefighting aircraft.
• The details of the proposed management efficiencies are being formulated and expected implementation of the short-term actions will begin in the 2007 fire season.

These recommendations go hand-in-hand with the variety of business processes the Forest Service has changed in recent years to more efficiently manage its resources.

Contact: Tom Harbour 202-205-0808

A Firestorm Wildland Fire Suppression employee stated in a recent email, "I wanted to let you know that the site worked great again this year, we received close to 150+ applications through the use of your site. We get a variety of applicants from all across the country."

There are currently BLM, USFS, several State, one City, and a few private organizations prepping for their impending fire seasons. If you're considering a private company, consider asking them if they're a NWSA member.

Regardless of any other evolving issues, there will be a fire season this year and we're proud to bring you some options on where or how you might want to participate! Don't forget to let our advertisers know where you saw the info! Without their support, we wouldn't be here.

Thanks, OA.

This Ab also says thanks to our advertisers. And I'm really glad OA and I are not paying for this site out of pocket any more. That said, it's also nice to feel we provide a meeting place so that those who want to find firefighting jobs get tied in with those who are offering them.

• People are our greatest asset in fighting fire. We are proud of our firefighters. Our firefighters are some of the most able professionals working in a high-risk environment that the world has ever seen. When our firefighters act within the scope of assigned duties in a reasonably safe and ethical way free of gross negligence, the Forest Service will stand with them. We will distinguish between acceptable honest errors and unacceptable willful violations.
• One year ago, our agency embraced the Fire Suppression Foundational Doctrine. While implementation is in progress, it is vital that we move forward to implement the cultural shift and attain a Just Culture. Myriad rules and regulations cannot keep up with increasing complexities in fire management. The Doctrine promotes intelligent behavior in complex incidents by replacing many detailed rules with simple, clear principles. We need a nimble environment of open communication to learn, adapt, and improve.
• It is crucial that we focus on the mission of the upcoming fire season and resist temptations to get distracted. Today’s workplace environment offers ample chances to get distracted. We must sustain our focus in a “safety-first” environment that minimizes risks of injury or death and maximizes the effectiveness of fire suppression. Firefighter and public safety is Job One, period. All incident personnel must be vigilant so that safety is never compromised for any reason.

I am proud of the dedication our firefighters bring to the job everyday and look forward to our continued efforts to first be safe and second carry out the Forest Service fire management mission.

/s/ Mark
MARK A. BOCHE
Director, State & Private Forestry, Region 2

GUIDANCE,  ADVICE  AND  ANSWERS

When suppression efforts do not go as planned and tragedies occur, there are three actions, the government and victims, or their families, may take: 1) administrative, 2) civil, and 3) federal criminal actions.

· Administrative Actions help the agency address performance issues. This action is not new and is exercised at the discretion of agency leadership. If the agency is taking action against an employee, it cannot supply legal counsel. Employees may wish to protect themselves by having legal or union representation during this course of action. Professional Liability Insurance (PLI) can provide such legal representation.

The agency does provide 50 percent reimbursement for PLI for most fire line supervisors. The Washington Office is looking for a Congressional sponsor to change the law to make 50 percent reimbursement for PLI available to all firefighters who are interested.

· Civil Actions are when a third party brings a lawsuit against an employee or the agency. In most circumstances, employees are covered under the Federal Employees Liability Reform and Tort Compensation Act. Here employees are provided “absolute immunity” for common negligence, that is, a failure to exercise due care under the circumstances. If an employee was acting within their scope of employment and did not commit gross negligence, the United States will substitute itself for the employee during legal proceedings.

There were several civil lawsuits filed related to the Thirtymile incident. The lawsuit filed by the Hagameyer’s against the agency was settled for $400,000. There were two constitutional tort lawsuits brought against two Forest Service employees. In both cases, employees asked for and were granted legal representation by the Justice Department. There was also a lawsuit filed against the manufactures of the fire shelters, however, the Forest Service was not involved in this lawsuit except to provide testimony.

· Federal Law-Based Criminal Actions are new as they apply to actions, or lack of actions, our employees may take related to fire suppression. The following paragraphs provide some answers to questions being circulated within the fire community about what, or why, things are happening to the Thirtymile IC.

Questions and Answers

· Is there a difference between being charged by federal prosecutors and being indicted?

Yes. Prosecutors file charges, or counts, against an individual that are formally read to them by a judge. The accused has an opportunity to enter a plea. Assuming a not guilty plea is filed, a date is set for a Grand Jury hearing where the prosecutor presents their evidence. This is a one-sided hearing. The accused does not have an opportunity at the Grand Jury to provide evidence of innocence. The Grand Jury considers evidence presented and then decides whether there is enough probable cause for an indictment, which is a formal accusation of a crime. If the accused is indicted, the case is scheduled for a jury trial in the future to allow the accused time to prepare a defense. Remember, the accused is presumed innocent unless found guilty at this trial.

The IC involved in the Cramer incident was not found guilty or indicted. The matter was settled prior to it going before a Grand Jury by using a pretrial diversion; a discretionary form of resolution in which criminal charges are either never filed, or are dismissed before the case gets to the Grand Jury.

· Why did it take five years before charges were brought?

Federal law allows up to five years to file charges. In the case of the Thirtymile IC, his attorney asked for, and was granted, an additional six months to study the case.

· Why didn’t the government supply an attorney?

When the United States brings a federal criminal complaint against an individual, via a US Attorney, it would be a conflict of interest for it to also defend the same individual in the same criminal matter. In the Thirtymile case, a public defender was assigned.

· Why is the agency being silent?

It is inappropriate to comment on ongoing criminal proceedings. To do otherwise, could be seen as interfering in the legal process. This should not be viewed, however, as either agreeing, or disagreeing, with the criminal proceedings. National Fire Director Tom Harbour commented on this matter a few weeks ago by saying “Don't confuse a lack of formal messages with a lack of effort to solve the issues.”

· Will liability insurance cover attorney fees in criminal cases?

Yes - but one should always check his/her policy to be sure. Typically, if an individual has taken out Professional Liability Insurance (PLI), then this insurance can be used to provide him/her with legal representation for criminal actions brought against them. PLI can also be used to provide legal representation to individuals for Administrative, Civil, and Criminal actions taken against them. The U.S. Attorney’s Office will consider providing legal representation for civil actions brought against an employee, and for state law-based criminal charges filed against an employee for actions occurring while he/she was acting within the scope of employment. For Administrative or federal criminal actions, the U.S. Attorney’s Office will not provide representation, because in both cases, it is the federal government bringing charges against an employee, and it would be a conflict of interest.

· What is currently happening?

After the Thirtymile incident, Senator Maria Cantwell helped enact P.L. 107-203 requiring that whenever a Forest Service fatality is caused by wildfire entrapment or burn over, the autonomous USDA Office of Inspector General (OIG) shall conduct an investigation of the fatality completely independent of any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service. The U.S. Attorney’s Office will work directly with OIG and has access to the OIG investigative report which they will use to help them determine a course of action.

Although the Thirtymile incident happened befores against a party using information they deem appropriateand I used my old shelter for training as new fire shelters became available...

But... the little "shelter" never did what it was intended to do....

While you can buy an "old style fire shelter" on Ebay or other sources, you cannot buy the experiences and stories of those who used them or were reduced to using them....

I still have my "orange sack"..... and my "yellow sack"... I now have a "blue sack"....

Marty Alexander of Canada can explain what I am trying to say....

Rogue Rivers

Rogue Rivers, I think he just wanted to show one to the new folks in training... Ab.

"From: Tom Harbour/WO/USDAFS
Date: 01/30/2007 11:22
Subject: NRE hit a home run!"

Blah, Blah, Blah..... BS...

It completely depends upon what a home run really is, and personally means to each of us on the ground level of wildland firefighting... and if someone is committed to win the game and make wildland firefighting safer and more efficient.... I simply would call it a "bunt" to save face, but Director Harbour thinks it was a "home run"..... just as I would have expected he'd think. He needs to come to the game where his education and experience could make a difference and not sit behind Mark Rey at Congressional Hearings...

Tom Harbour has exposed his hand and his game (and it is a poor hand to show).... but the current and next Chief haven't spoken to the troops yet about their intention... and Undersecretary Rey.... he got sent to the bleachers for some R&R before pitching again.

Communications is the key.... and right now.... Communications out of the Washington Office is non-existent other than a "bunt" to CYA....

A a "Learning Culture" is what we need to strive for ..... the eventual goal of a High Reliability Organization (HRO) as envisioned by the "true leadership" of the Forest Service.

Who is up next to bat?

As I remember from my earlier days of Little League... we always said, "Swing batta, batta, swing".... eventually we got to a batter who knew how to swing and hit a "home run".... or we shut them down. I would hardly consider the NRE hearings as a "home run"....

Gizmo

Gizmo, we need to celebrate the little things and the big things on the way to achieving a goal. If people get blasted for making a move in the right direction, even if it wasn't as big a move as you / we / firefighters want and need, how do we encourage them to move ahead. I'd say, "Good move, Tom Harbour, KEEP THEM COMING! Hit 'em harder. You can do it! Don't let up. Put your shoulder into it, your whole body, follow through. We expect more of the same and better. We know you can do it! Lead by example, yeah." Ab.

Haw haw. It's not the real issue unless you have a bad back, but are otherwise fit and able to do your job. Ab.