JS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BLM National Fire Operations Committee Members:

The attached draft instruction memorandum has been forwarded to the BLM Assistant Director, Fire and Aviation. If the draft is approved, the IM will be issued through normal channels.

If you have any questions, please call the contact person listed on the draft IM.

Casey O'Connell
BLM Fire and Aviation
Division of Fire Operations

Red Book Errata (209 K doc file)
T-Roadside Incident Response (43K doc file)
U Job Hazard Analysis (65 K doc file)

Abs,

I heard that the Shasta Trinity NF (SHF) lost 25 fire people since last season. I
can't remember if this already showed up on "They Said" or not. Forest by forest,
this seems to be adding up.

Brother Cub

Waycross, GA – A dozer operator with the Georgia Forestry Commission was entrapped on Saturday evening while responding to a new fire 10 miles east of Nahunta, GA. The firefighter who is a 16 year veteran was operating a bulldozer in the fire area when it became immobilized in thick bay fuels. The firefighter used the area he had plowed as a safety zone and deployed his fire shelter after a wind shift occurred and his dozer started to be over taken by fire.

Georgia Forestry Commission officials say the firefighter was taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation and minor injuries and released early Sunday morning.

Recent weather conditions, fire behavior and fire activity has challenged firefighters. Unpredictable conditions have made an inherently dangerous job even more dangerous.

Initial reports indicate the firefighter involved in the incident followed proper protocols which resulted in saving his life. The Georgia Forestry Commission is deploying an accident investigation team to provide additional insight in the fire behavior that occurred at the time of the incident. The team will release a 24 and 72 hour report which will be used as a lessons learned for other firefighters in understanding watch outs and circumstances to be wary of when responding to fires in this area and in these weather conditions.

Fire shelters have saved the lives of more than 270 firefighters nationally. Chances of surviving an entrapment have increased from under 50 percent to about 98 percent since agencies made fire shelters mandatory equipment.

For additional fire information, contact the Joint Information Center at 912-287-2451 or 912-287-2452.

“Does anyone know where information can be gathered regarding the Medical Standards Program that firefighters in Regions 1, 2, 6 & 10 are subjected to? How many people are being held out and for what types of conditions? Information from the DOI (I think they are using this also)? For those of you FS folks that don’t know about this program it is coming to a region near you soon, hopefully the bugs are worked out by then.”

Link to the web site below for all you could ever want to know about the “firefighter Medical Standards”

www.nifc.gov/medical_standards

Having been subject to them when the DOI first implemented the program, I have a couple of insights from that experience.

1. You will need a baseline physical every five years (including the first one when the program is implemented in your area) It is really not a big deal, very similar to most agencies initial hire physicals.
2. You will take a basic physical every year, prior to being cleared for the pack test (say goodbye to regional approval of the HSQ). You do not want to wait until March/ April to take your physical. Beat the rush and get it done in December or January.
3. It was a pain for the temps at first, but the system seems to have streamlined enough that it was working (that was a couple years ago…)
4. I know of a few folks who got jacked up in the program, but they had some issues which were valid concerns...
5. The program is a good thing! While it may take some “at risk” people out of the field (is this a bad thing?) it will also generate documentation that can potentially show a deteriorating health condition that was caused by the job.
6. The Great Basin and Southwest Regions are supposed to implement in 2008, with R5 following in 2009. All other regions (and all DOI) have already implemented the program.

My only beef with the program is how much money the contractor is getting to “schedule” appointments. For my baseline physical, the cost was 500 dollars. For that, the contractor called me and told me I could schedule a physical at one of the following locations (insert local clinic here…) I was supposed to call the contractor back and let them know when I scheduled. My personnel people gave me the paperwork to take to the doc. So I went and took a physical that could not have cost more than 150 dollars, and assume the contractor got the rest. The only other thing the contractor had to do was email my personnel office that I was cleared for arduous duty.

As always, your results may vary…

L –– C –– E – S

Wildfire Season Could Be Costly

ht

Managers are feeling the pain of their groundpounders from what I've observed firsthand and read here. Those who are out of touch are higher than the 401 series issue. Ab.

I thought that maybe I could help to translate an issue from the field to the much 'higher up'. Regarding the issue of Forest Service retention as it is related to pay scales.

Two things to keep in mind.

(1) There is only a retention problem if there is an identified retention goal.

(2) The bottom line is all that most budget minded higher ups can understand.

Here is part of the equation: Fires will consume X amount of acres resulting in Y amount of “firefighter” hours needed to control them. If the Forest Service has 0 hours to apply, it must purchase these hours from the more costly Cooperators (2 to 3 times the rate of F.S. firefighters). Okay, this is obviously not cost effective.

Conversely if the Forest Service paid their Firefighters 2 or 3 times as much they would retain much of the needed firefighters, but this would also cost more.

Here is another part of the equation: Somewhere in the middle is the “Most Effective Level” of pay to retain the necessary Firefighters that are needed to accomplish Fire Management’s responsibilities to the public....

C+NVC This might be familiar to some people. Cost can represent the "MEL" Salaries and NVC can represent Cost of Cooperators and the Damage Curve can be the number in hundreds or thousands of homes that the Forest Service is willing to let burn as acceptable loss.

I understand that classification and pay are huge issies affecting retention of Firefighters in F.S. Region 5. First someone must identify that there is a retention problem in the first place. Maybe the agency doesn’t have an identified target to retain its trained and qualified firefighters. Therefore all the firefighters could leave and the ‘higher ups’ still would not have reached a problem with retention.

Bottom Line, Not until the end of the year when the bottom line comes into play and when the bills are due to all of the cooperators that replaced the firefighters that the Forest Service used to have will they understand that there is a problem.

I suppose that rigid classification systems and pay scales are going to prove more costly than frugal. I enjoy working for the Forest Service but it is shame to see these problems manifesting and compounding and not be able to do anything. Except maybe apply to an agency that will support and value its workforce.

Re-evaluate your S.A.

Getting a STL or TFLD assignment as a contractor is going to be difficult, and many would argue it is a conflict of interest. For example if your engine was on your strike team you might be signing the time sheets for you engine. An easier route would be get a ENGB job with a federal agency, put in enough time to show your competence, and the agency will get you an assignment. Once you are fully qualified, you can be employed as an AD for overhead positions. And don't be hopeless, there is more jobs out there in fire, than people to fill them.

DragMcCloud

When I see comments like "having an Agency sponsor you", "I'm on good terms with most of the people", and "they don't ever sign anyone up as an AD that wasn't retired Agency", I get seriously pi**ed off!

What ever happened to the NWCG 310-1 standards that says "if you're qualified, you're qualified; if you're not, you're not?" Looks like the good ole girls/boys club is still alive and well, paid for by my tax $$.

In my world, I see the local largest Federal agency ( a 4-letter abbreviation that will remain nameless) allowing some of their good-ole-boys to attend Annual Refresher, and then issuing them RedCards, while denying other retirees the same opportunity.

Other places, AD retirees are placed on T-1 and T-2 IMTs in Primary positions for 6+ years after they're retired, even though regular Agency folks are qualified and available for the Team slots.

Getting signed up and used as an AD shouldn't require that you're an "Agency retiree" or that you "get along with folks in Dispatch" or are "sponsored": it should be based on your quals, performance and currency, regardless of your prior agency affiliation and/or continued friendship with former co-workers.

Enough frustrated ramblings on a beautiful Spring evening.

Aberdeen

I have heard that you cannot be signed up as both a contractor and as an
AD. I know that there are individuals that are but I think the agencies
will be taking a closer look at this........May want to consider hiring on
with another contractor during R6 off season to get taskbooks completed,
just a thought.

"T"

No name ? but Not so hopeless? or the firefighter formerly known as "hopeless"?

I've heard for a number of years now that Santa Maria and other socal towns/cities sign up qualified people as "regular employees"; they then dispatch them out at the high non-fed socal rates and take a hefty "admin fee". It's one way to get around low AD rates and problems with dispatch even while it adds to the rising cost of suppression. Evidently more CA towns are getting wise to the practice and are copying it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Ab.

Message on the webmasters board

A fix for Flash is being worked on, according to a reliable source in the
ISO. It's estimated that a fix will be available next week.

Terry

I have been fighting fires since '94 with a volunteer fire department in R-6, and worked for a reputable private contractor from '97-'02, and have been contracting my own engine since '02. during this timespan I have taken I-100, S-110, S-131, S-190, I-200, S-205, S-212, S-230/231, S-234, S-260,S-270, S-290, S-330, S-336, and S-390. I also am certified as a Basic Structure FFT-1, with HAZMAT awareness and ops training, and have been a first responder off and on over the years. I have completed my task books for FFT-2, FFT-1 and SRB, and have open task books for STL and TFL that were initiated in April 2005.

I never worked for a Fed or State agency, but is there any way possible to for me to get signed up as a STL or TFL trainee? I know R-6 is contracting engines this year as strike teams with the contractors own STL, something my business might like to be able to do in the future, but it's very difficult to get tasks signed off unless you already have an ex agency STL or TFL on your payroll. The main reason I want to get signed on as an AD is I would like to be able to possibly supplement my income during the months that R-6 is under snow, and would also like to be available to help in other non-fire emergencies if there is a need, since my engine sits most of the time between fire seasons and I have nothing else to do.

I know the thought of a non agency person wanting to sign up as a STL or TFL might not sit too well with some on this website, but I feel I may be somewhat qualified to do the job regardless of the color of the truck I drive. I know I have more training and experience than some of the people that have been put in charge of my engine as agency STLs and TFLs over the past few years. I just want to be able to continue to grow, and feel it helps me stay on top of my game, instead of becoming stagnant.

Thank you for any responses.

Sign me "hopeless"

You wrote in. Yer not hopeless. Readers? Ab.

Are you talking about the video of kids throwing around a basketball with <snip, Ab doesn't want you to give it away>?

If so, Brad M of the Los Padres IHC should have a copy of it and would know where to get it. It’s a great video that shows how easy it is to get tunnel vision even in the most simple tasks. It would be great to see some more simple exercises like this find its way into our Human Factors training. Brad does an excellent job with showing how the human mind really works and how having that better understanding is a key part of Human Factors.

JA

Will forward your info on as requested. Ab.

I recently read the OIG Forest Service Large Fire Cost report 08601-44-SF and was struck by the direction given to the Forest Service, to correct the FS “shortfalls”. In essence, the outcome won’t change the results. Having been a part of the OIG review, I felt more than qualified to give my recommendations to address OIG’s concerns.

First, the report lumps the entire agency in its findings. Facts are each region does some things similar--but most things quite differently. For example, some states address jurisdiction differently than others, making agreements with the USFS different. Others have far less urban interface or population than others, as well as a low frequency of fires. I’ll point out more differences throughout my comments. The point here is the differences need to be described and the question asked by OIG-- why the difference? The team I interviewed with were sincere and professional in their quest to accomplish their objectives. Their views were mainly those of auditors, accountants, with little to no familiarization with incident management. Understanding why we just couldn’t fill in another box and make things more consistent was difficult for them to understand since they had no experience with what really happens on the ground.

It needs to be clarified that homeowners do not rely on the Federal government to provide them wildfire suppression services. They really don’t care what fire department shows up, as long as they do show up and respond. The agreements presently in place in Region 5 or California are models for addressing “checker board” ownership and integrating local and state departments to respond to fires on both private and federal lands coupled the with the “cost apportionment process,” accountability and responsibility of who pays for what prior to, during and after an incident. The Cost Apportionment process is a MAJOR difference as to how suppression cost is apportioned. Many other regions do not use this process nor do they have agreements as well defined and successful as in California. Understand, the Federal Government has the authority to protect assets under its jurisdiction, thus the response of USFS first responders at the onset of a wildland fire and the reason for the agreements so each jurisdiction will know at the ONSET who will pay for what. It is not uncommon for this response to be several miles from our borders when the fire danger (rate of spread, spotting, high winds) will easily result in fires in and around structures spreading to USFS borders and beyond. Understand, the initial attack (IA) responders often involve several fire departments responding at the same time since their jurisdiction may also be threatened.

The majority of the urban interface and incorporated cities near and adjacent to USFS borders were built years ago with little emphasis on fireproofing one’s homes, much less an entire community. Thus, outdated building codes are still in effect and will be slow to be updated. Only within the last year has the State of California required and implemented a 100-foot clearance around homes. This in itself is a major step to address part of the issue of homeowner responsibility when it comes to wildfire. However, the effect of this new state regulation was a long time coming. There are examples, however, of effective City and County regulations requiring homeowners to clean up debris around homes with fiscal penalties to the homeowner if they do not comply. Orange, LA, and Ventura Counties are examples of where this presently occurs in California.

California not only has over 35 million residents, it also has a Mediterranean climate, meaning it is usually warm to hot most of the year, has fuel types that are highly volatile (they contain a lot of oils) and over two- thirds of the fires are “people” set. Coupled with having the second most threatened and endangered species in the country (Hawaii is first) as well as working with the biggest state partner (about 8th on a GNP basis), “lumping” what everyone else does gives little credit to them or Region 5. Because of The Laguna Fire in 1970 and the total lack of federal, state or local cooperation, the Federal government funded and directed that some kind of model be developed so the Fire Service would provide immediate and effective response to the taxpayers throughout the country regardless of agency or jurisdiction, thus the Incident Command System (ICS) was developed. This resulted in pre-fire identification of response across other jurisdictions, and in California agreements were also developed that also pre identified who would pay for services rendered. I mention this brief history to describe the reason all color of engines respond to fire in the urban interface as much as it may appear the agency is responding far beyond its “jurisdictional” area of responsibility.

The success of ICS has also has resulted in residents not cleaning up around their homes along the urban interface since the “Fire Service” will show up with a variety of fire engines from several departments whether the homeowner cleans up or not. Placing emphasis on the following could make a difference in reducing suppression cost in and around the urban areas and increase protection our natural resource as well as reduce loss of private property.

(1) The agency has never had as many fuels dollars in its budget as it does today. Unfortunately, the very large amounts of funding taken from the top leaves little that actually reaches the field; thus, making it almost impossible to truly place the dollars where they will make a significant difference, especially in areas where fuels reduction is expensive. Until there is a change in this practice, there will be the continued placement of fuels targets in those areas that are the least cost to implement with little to no effect to those areas that, although costly to remove the fuels, have the potential to show significant suppression cost reduction.

(2) Placing the majority of the agency’s fuels dollars within the urban interface sends a message to the homeowner that they really don’t have to worry about wildland fire. The Federal government is cleaning it up, your home is protected! The agency needs to be given the flexibility to use those dollars where it will give the taxpayer the greatest benefit, that is increase potential for increased resource protection, reduced suppression cost and increased firefighter safety. Region 5 has such a proven and operational model that provides agency administrators with not only the location of fuels reduction projects but also includes the kinds of treatment, size and probability of success. Implementation has been on going for the last 5 years. The process needs to be expanded and accelerated.

Etc

For the rest of the comments: Comments on the OIG Large Fire Report (241 K word doc) Ab.

Has anyone else noticed that the newest Flash is broken. Flash files no longer run on most FS computers.
AgLearn in the past has run slowly if at all or has timed out on our slow remote computers on dialup. Now it's even worse. How can we do our jobs?

Todd

Also the Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician Series) & Series 0455 (Range Technician Series) jobs pages and Series 0401 (Biologist Series) are updated.

As a recent graduate of the UNLV 401 program, I stepped away thinking that I had my 24 semester units, 18 upper division, and was on my way to have more career options. Now, it is sounding like there is some big problem with OPM that may kibosh all that hard work. Can anyone explain in simple terms what the best and worst case outcomes would be? If OPM requires the stringent 401 standards for the bio positions, the feds will lose half their workforce (my interpretation). So where is this all headed? Any help in trying to understand this mess would be a big help.

Marginally Educated, Dazed, and even More Confused

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ann Studebaker and All,

Our country has had a lengthy history of creating, nurturing and producing
some of the finest generals in the world. Don was ours. Don's work and
contribution to our agency, to leadership and to the best things in
maintaining the best fire fighting force in the world lives on. He was
excellent on pushing limits to the outskirts of acceptable, opening the
door, welcoming and nurturing diverse folks -- whether in terms of gender,
race and, more importantly, in thought. His special blend of dynamic
leadership, incredible memory, strategic viewpoints, mentoring and his
human foibles -- there is no one else like him. The man was incredible and
we all miss him dearly.

Jeanne Pincha-Tulley

Thanks...

Picker

Its kind of hard to come to work these days with a positive attitude when most of the fire management that you work for is bringing the morale of its firefighting, oops, forestry technicians down. Retention, benefits, pay, working conditions and CAL FIRE are not going to change anytime soon. If those fire managers think it is so bad, well, maybe its time to pull the plug and move on. Everyone who thinks its getting worse, look at the other side. You will probably have more overtime than you know what to do with. You will probably see more fire behavior than you ever had before. Brighten up, we all still have a job. Instead of cowering in the corner, lets be the backbone we all know we can be. DUTY, RESPECT, INTEGRITY

Potatoe Wedges

Ab:

Dean Clark, currently Deputy FMO for the Intermountain Region of the NPS, started his wildland fire career on engines in 1971 at Grant Grove in Sequoia/Kings Canyon NP (SEKI) . He went on to become an FMO in several places. He is still very active as a MAC group member and in the field as a PSC2 and RXB1.

Mitchell Brookins started at about the same time in the same place. He spent many years in many places as a seasonal engine foreman and is still working as a contractor for wildland fire putting to work his MS in GIS technology.

Tim Stubbs started at SEKI in 1969 and, now retired, became the leader of the SEKI Forestry Crew which was the primary IA and RX crew in those parks until along came the Arrowhead Hotshots in 1982. He then spent many years as AFMO/FMO with the NPS at several areas. He is still working some as an AD/Contractor FBAN/LTAN/ATGS.

Mitchell and Tim were both part of the infamous 1976 Sphinx Creek Fire burnover, a story that has not been very well told in wildland fire lore.

KnuckleDragon

Thanks. Maybe they would tell the Sphinx Creek Fire burnover story to us. Would you please ask them? I updated the fire manager project page. Ab.

Here's the footware standards memo from 2005. (52 K pdf file, small)

DM

Thanks DM. Ab.

The safety of our Nation's federal wildland firefighters is the responsibility of all those from the firefighters themselves to the Agencies that employ them. Improving firefighter safety will require the study and understanding of previous incidents as well as the recognition by those at all levels that wildland firefighting is inherently dangerous and no two offer the same dynamics. Such environments often times necessitate split-second decision-making thus demanding that decision makers have the flexibility to exercise their human instincts, judgment, experience, expertise and common sense as they see fit given the complexities each incident offers.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

With all this said, extra caution should be taken while working in and along the Border. Especially during nighttime operations. I suggest a risk vs. gain game plan when deciding if night shifts are need during an incident. The wild west days of the border are here again.

Stay Safe.

John-O
Battalion Chief
Campo Battalion
CAL FIRE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Message from the Cleveland:

As you all know, we've experienced a dramatic increase in immigrant traffic over the last year. This increase brings increased safety risk to employees and the public. Please maintain situational awareness at all times, particularly when you're conducting business in areas south of I-8. Make sure you cover these risks in tailgate safety sessions and morning briefings.

Tom
CNF

Dear Sir:
For the Wyoming Hotshots, please include:

Vern Bentley Wy IHC and Bighorn IR (approx. 1981-1985)
now the Forest AFMO for the Medicine Bow-Routt NF.

Mike Gagen: Wy IHC, 1983, currently FFMO on the
Gallatin.

Roger Staats: Wy IHC 1984, McCall Jumper
1986-2000ish, currently McCall District (or west
zone) FMO, PNF.

Karl Brauneis was on the Bighorn IR (currently Wyoming
IHC) just before he jumped.

just sign me - old Wyoming shot/McCall Jumper...

I included the new info. Thanks, Ab.

• First, more than a prediction "system", CPS is, bottom line all about FIREFIGHTER SAFETY.
• Secondly, cumulative effect of having CPS and the language incorporated into firefighting planning and tactics is that CPS EMPOWERS FIREFIGHTERS.... poorly conceived assignments can be identified much more readily, with firefighter input used to modify how the assignments are carried out.

Another thing I have come to realize is that because CPS has been developed in the west...it does not have the following in the Eastern/Midwestern states.

I found this to be true with the wildland firefighters I know here in northern Michigan, and also with my volunteer department as well. The prevailing attitude is that CPS is something of a "joke" ... somehow, what is learned about wildfires in the west doesn't apply back here.

I'd like to hear from other wildland firefighters in this area of the country as to how CPS is regarded by their agencies and local Fire Departments...and what their opinion of it is.

Thanks,
Borromeo1018

Anotherdave

BASIC REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL GRADES

Applicants who meet the basic requirements described in the individual occupational requirements are fully qualified for the specified entry grade (generally grade GS-5). Applicants who wish to qualify for positions at higher grade levels (generally grade GS-7 and above) must also meet the requirements shown in the table on page IV-A-22, in addition to meeting the basic requirements.

The individual occupational requirements typically provide at least two methods for applicants to meet the basic requirements of the occupations covered by this standard:

The individual occupational requirements for some series make no provision for combining experience and education. Therefore, they do not include paragraph B provisions.

For a small number of occupations or positions covered by this standard, applicants may possess certain kinds of experience in lieu of education. In such cases, applicants may meet minimum qualification requirements through experience equivalent to a 4-year degree. These situations are generally described in paragraph C of the individual occupational requirements. Note: (No paragraph C exists in the 401 supplemental standards, or none has been specifically approved by OPM for wildland firefighters.)

Applicants whose experience is used to meet the basic requirements through a paragraph B or C provision may qualify for grades above the entry level if that experience includes 1 year of specialized experience. In such cases, the specialized experience would have to be evaluated to determine if it is at the appropriate grade level in the normal line of progression.

Combining Education and Experience: When combining education with experience, first determine the applicant's total qualifying education as a percentage of the education required for the grade level; then determine the applicant's experience as a percentage of the experience required for the grade level; finally, add the two percentages. The total percentage must equal at least 100 percent to qualify an applicant for that grade level. For example, an applicant for a GS-184, Sociology, position has successfully completed 60 undergraduate semester hours, including 24 semester hours in sociology, and, in addition, has 2 full-time years of appropriate experience that demonstrates that the applicant possesses the necessary analytical and communication skills. The applicant would qualify for GS-5, since the 60 semester hours (the equivalent of 2 years of undergraduate education, or 50 percent of the total requirement) were supplemented by 2 additional years of appropriate experience that provided the remaining 50 percent of the total required education and experience.

noname

"Hear, hear! He was a hotshot too; anyone know which crew?"

I believe it was the same crew that Marty Alexander was on at a different period?

Student

Karl Brauneis, Missoula SO 1977-1979 went on to be a Zone FMO on the
Shoshone N.F. and was the driving force for getting the 10 standard fire
orders back into their original configuration.

Tim

Hear, hear! He was a hotshot too; anyone know which crew?
Folks, ask your friends what shot and/or sj crew they were on and what management positions they've held. Send out emails to others in your region. Let's get them on the list. It's looking pretty amazing. Ab.

Way back in the 1950-1960 era, Dean McCullough from the Oregon State Forestry School wrote that "the days are long past when the best Forester is the one that can be smelled the furthest downwind." Can we now, in the 21st Century, acknowledge that the best wildland firefighter is not the one with the blackest fire shirt?

When the next burn injuries occur and the firefighter is wearing a fuel-soaked shirt, are we all going to stand shoulder-to-shoulder and declare her/him another of "America's Heroes", or are we going to address individual responsibility and accountability for allowing ego to override common sense safety concerns. And, are we going to hold Crew Leaders accountable for failing to redeem their responsibilities for the safety of their crew members? Only time, and the next unnecessary burn injuries, will tell.

Is a clean yellow Nomex fire shirt REALLY all that bad?

And, in light of the Thirtymile legal liability issues, are YOU ready to stand up in court and answer why you didn't make your employee "clean up their act"?

Mollysboy

With the research coming out linking chemicals that get on the skin with rare cancers in firefighters, I sure wouldn't want to live in a fuel soaked shirt just to be cool. Ab.

I know the questions must be asked and I am interested in facts. I just think a person who is lying injured in bed needs our well wishes and prayers more than we need to determine if the accident could have been prevented based on the information shared on the post. With time we will have the facts and we will be able to determine preventability. IMHO now is not the time to speculate.

On a lighter note:

I've lit myself on fire several times over the past 35 years but have been fortunate to escape without the serious injury of second or third degree burns. Could I have prevented these accidental lightings? Heck yes...could have stayed home, stayed at the mill, continued working on a well drilling rig, stayed with the county parks dept, continued building bomb release mechanisms or became a fishing guide. However, most accidents occur in the home, mill workers lose fingers, my a$% got cold digging wells, making air born bomb release devices was hazardous in itself and after sinking 20 miles out to sea my fishing guide fantasy lost its romance. I think I'll take my chances with a drip torch.

A thought (or a prayer... your choice) As we continue down our chosen paths, give us strength to accept life as it is and our duty to make it better...

Oliver..

With a note immediately below from Peter Tolosano, R5 FAM Safety Officer

Please discuss this incident with your Rx burners.
In another message it states that Erik was carrying an empty drip torch and the fumes from the
residual fuel vented from the drip torch and saturated his pants with an ignitable mixture.

Was this preventable???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Frank Hayes
District Ranger
Clifton RD, Apache-Sitgreaves NF's

Here is the latest info on Erik's mishap and condition.

During blacklining operations on the Pigeon Rx on Wednesday afternoon (4/18/07), Erik Rodin, Asst Strayhorse crew foreman, was overseeing burnout operations and was also burning a small section of holding line in very steep terrain on a northern block using a standard drip torch. Conditions were very favorable, and his burnout was going well. During this time, one of his 2 drip torches had unknowingly leaked fuel onto his pants leg. It appears that Erik had slipped just after igniting some grass fuels, and perhaps caught his pants leg on fire. District Ranger Frank Hayes was acting as a lookout during this section of burnout, and observed the incident and was in constant contact with Erik during the episode.

Before Erik could extinguish the flames, he received second degree and a small amount of third degree burn to his left leg. He was able to walk out of the isolated location to a waiting vehicle unassisted, and was driven to Morenci Health clinic. The EMT there recommended he be transported to Maricopa Burn Center for assessment and treatment which occurred immediately.

He did receive a hand size third degree burn on his leg, and second degree burns to leg below the knee to his boot tops. He is overnighting at the Burn Center, and is in good spirits, though not very pleased about the incident as one can imagine. He can be reached at the Burn Center 602-344-5726.

Erik's burnout operations were successful, in spite of this relatively new but not recommended technique.

I need to have written proof that other agencies, federal or local govt., have
gone to and have approved the LaSportiva Glacier. I have heard rumors of
an EMAIL or a MEMO that I really would like to get my hands on!!!!

I know this question has been raised so many times before and I apologize
for this.

HH

I know what you mean when you say Don continues to teach... Besides what you mentioned, Don was instrumental in getting the quality ICT3 computer simulation assessment up and running in record time. I believe that continues on too. The speed with which he and his co-creators accomplished such quality work blew me away. It was stressful, but most of those who went through it learned from the process itself. In my estimation when the test leaves you more informed, that's the best kind of test. Professional. Profound.

Mostly I knew Don in teaching settings, in meetings; at break time he was willing to answer any question I had. He had another side besides teaching, a passion that reminded me of my dad. One of the things I wish I had a copy of or could see again was a video clip of Don as IC chewing out a crew of serious underperformers. I think they had hidden out rather than cutting line. He sure called them on the carpet. His directness was refreshing. They looked surprised that they had gotten caught. Too often in this "PC" age people tolerate poor or lackluster performance. Don did not and he didn't mince words. He had a passion about doing the job well and expectations both of himself and for others who worked under his command.

Mellie

Don's memory and his many contributions to the Wildland Fire organization
continue to be remembered in many ways. Don was the IC of CIIMT 2 and at
the end of each Incident Team assignment the team gets together and "raise
our glasses in a toast" to Don. He's never left the team. Don was also
memorialized at the recent S-420 (Command and General Staff) training
course in South Zone last month. Don was a member of the cadre for over 20
years and was a major contributor to how the course is delivered today and
to its reputation of being a "premier training course". The fire used in
the simulation exercises was renamed the "Studebaker Fire". His legacy
will live on.....He continues to teach.

Patty

Been meaning to write regarding:

"Your FERS will not roll into cal pers. Basically the best thing
to do is to roll it into an IRA or some kind of deferred comp."

If you decide to leave the FS for a state or local agency, you will have the option to leave your money in the Thrift Savings Plan -- once you take it out, as a non-federal employee you'll have no opportunity to reinvest if you change your mind. The TSP is known in investment circles for its extremely low overhead; remember, less paid to managers in fees, means more money gets reinvested. To me, that made sense, and I just let my retirement stay in TSP rather than rolling it over into a private investment -- many of which can eat you alive with fees. Even compared to other investments I have (and I'm a big believer in passive investments with next to no fees) the TSP is a great deal.

For those of you Feds who are snickering and saying no one has the money to invest, do what I did: take a percentage point or two of the January raises (money I wasn't used to getting any way) and put it into Thrift Savings.

Still Out There as an AD

Don Studebaker on Leadership (jpg, large 700+K suitable for framing)

Don's contributions to the wildland fire community were many and he will
always be remembered by those fortunate enough to have worked with him. He
was also a great teacher with a knack for developing future leaders. To
this day, not a week goes by that his name isn't mentioned in some
conversation around the office, in the field, or on the fireline. Great
memories and stories for firefighters to learn from well into the future.

Carlton Joseph

Dear Ann,

Don also meant so much to all of us. He was a mentor to me. Original Ab was a member of his Incident Management Team. What an awesome human being! Larger than life. Willing to tell it like it was. He was a leader, no doubt about it. Every week something comes up for me that causes me to remember and celebrate Don's life. Our community embraces you and your family. Ab.

Photos of Don: Manter Fire, with Aaron at Pendola, checking "the goods", Team at Stein IC in '99, Don having a moment at Stein IC, Dennis Award, Team at Shaw AFB, and Don.

No slamming, just didn't know, I mean a capital hill and DHS building etc, sounded like a good internet joke to me. I had some good belly laughs based on my ignorance. Glad I didn't know. I needed the laugh. Haw Haw Haw, just remembering the good feeling of a good laugh surrounding squeak trees and instant water and the rest. Ab.

As you should d**n well know :). Saipan is an island in the US Trust Territory of the Mariana Islands. (Commonwealth if the Northern Mariana Islands) Must be part of R5. And there is a Capitol Hill on the island. In the same armpit of the Pacific as Guam. Actually north of that vacation paradise.

If you don't believe me go check this out.
www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/pacific_islands/txu-oclc-0607971266-saipan.jpg

Don't faint when you can't read it, click on it and it becomes quite legible. Must be they are afraid of global warming and droughts when they won't get the normal annual gazillion inches of rain, got to get wildland trained people available.

Firmly tongue-in cheek.

ht

I knew I didn't want to ask Rusty Witwer or Dennis Orbis for a reason. Too much reality... I guess all laughter fits must end at some point... Ab.

ROFLM*O... Do you think "they" are offering the Basic 32 on some non-DC Capitol Hill and we'll be seeing those recruits this season? We should teach them to be aware of squeak trees that cause fires, get them to carry the powdered water, have them help build a few windmills that we use to blow out the fires, and put them on patrol for the scuba divers we occasionally find in trees. Lots of tasks for newbies from Capitol Hill. Ab.

Round-about, from Jeanne Pincha-Tulley, the IFPM Subject Matter Specialist:

Based on a request from Department of Interior (DOI) and the USFS to OPM,
there are issues regarding the implementation of the GS-401 series under
the IFPM standards. One issue has to do with the number of education
credits that count towards professional and scientific positions; a second
issue meeting these requirements through use of a variety of courses
including those sponsored by NWCG. These issues are really very complex
with the variety of interpretations are based on policy changes OPM made on
February 15, 2005 and that did not come to DOI/USFS attention until
recently.

These issues affects all IFPM participating DOI agencies and the USFS. OPM
has written a letter and issued it to DOI (not USFS Washington Office).

Monday, April 23, 2008, there was a conference call (in Washington DC) that
included both Departments, several agencies and OPM. The next step is to
clarify the issues we asked OPM to assist us to interpret, mitigate and/or
fine other avenues so that the effect will be minimal.

R5's "boot camp" and other programs are mixed up in this mess and there is
not a clear interpretation at this time.

Suggest Bob contact: Chuck S, editor of Smokejumper magazine,
Chico, CA for possible speakers in San Jose area.

Firemark

I'll send Bob the contact info. If I post it here, Chuck's email will get pounded by everyone who just realized they'd like a sj speaker, too. Haw haw. Ab.

Here's a strange combination .... The ultimate in outsourcing, perhaps? Either that or they're going for the inside the beltway minorities? And the guy Anthony who is the contact isn't even on the FS lookup utility. Outsourced? No area code... Hmmm, guess they didn't want anyone from Saipan to call him... However, if we knew the area code all you eastern guys/gals who have been trying to get the Basic 32 could call him and sign up... (Ab, I just had to comment.)

from the Saipan Tribune, Micronesia: www.saipantribune.com/newsstory.aspx?newsID=67725&cat=1

Wildland Fire Fighting training set

Ever considered a career in the forest service as a Wildland Fire Fighter? The U.S. Forest Service, Fire and Aviation will be conducting a Wildland Basic 32 Fire Fighting Course on April 23-26, 2007. The training will be held on Capital Hill, at the Homeland Security Training Center Building 1358, formerly the CUC office.

For more information, call Fire Fighter/Program Manager Anthony R. Babauta at 664-9032 or visit the Capital Hill Fire Substation adjacent to the Legislature Building.

Thanks

Zimm

Tex

Regarding fitness standards for hotshot crews (ref to FS only)....
FSH5109.17 Ch 23..2 "Field units are not authorized to supplement
physical fitness standards." and "The work capacity test is the sole
physical fitness measurement recognized by the Forest Service.". Chapter
41.1 lists running, sit-ups etc as "desired, but not required." Don't
know about other agencies, but the Forest Service units may not use the
run as an selection criteria.

Good luck to your son. Being a member of a Hotshot crew is a great life
experience.

Old Fire Guy

Good info from Jim. Let me add that crews PT together. They come to act as a
well oiled machine for safety sake. If members can't keep up, it reduces crew
cohesiveness and potentially raises risks when fighting fire.

Shorty

Here's one Hotshot's 17 week training regimen. Ab.

I'm looking to get a sense of people's thoughts, especially career professional firefighters. This is a pretty informal survey, I don't have the time or budget to bring the Brookings Institution in to do something formal. But I am very interested in your thoughts and those of your colleagues, so please share this through your networks and give me some feedback.

Regards, Larry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wildland Fire Suppression
Rules or Best Practices?

What do the Standard Firefighting Orders mean to you? Are they absolute rules and Policy that must be followed at all times? Or are they best practices for safe firefighting? If they are absolute rules, should the violation of one or more of them be sufficient basis for removal of an employee from their job or some other form of punishment? What about LCES? Are those principles inviolable or are they guidelines for mitigated risk? Must you always be in communication with others at all times while on a fire? Should a tactical assignment be abandoned if communications are compromised (e.g., a repeater goes down or an aerial platform goes in for fuel)? What about the Downhill Checklist (Incident Response Pocket Guide, p. 8)? Must all of these precepts be followed when constructing line downhill, or are these simply guidelines that should be followed? What about the Risk Management Process (IRPG, p 1)? Should it be followed at all times? How many times should the process be completed during a given operational period? How should the completion of this process be documented? Must the Structure Assessment Checklist (IRPG, p 14) be completed or the Structure Protection Guidelines (IRPG- p 16) followed to the letter before a structure can be protected? How about the Aviation Watch-out Situations (IRPG, p. 46), are they unbending?

The fact is, we have a lot of processes designed to keep wildland firefighters safe, contained in numerous interagency guides and publications. The Incident Response Pocket Guide, Fireline Handbook and Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations (or Red Book) come to mind. Yet precisely what these checklists, orders, watch outs and processes are to us, precisely how they are to be used, and whether or not they must be used at all times by all personnel on the fireline…. these issues are less than clear. Can you remember them, or is it too confusing to comprehend 87 + bullet statements all the time?

Is it any wonder that firefighters and accident investigators are often confused when attempting to separate rules/Policy that demand absolute compliance from guidelines and checklists that help ensure survival? Take this passage from the Red Book, page 01-1, for example: “Employees engaged in fire suppression and other fire management activities will comply with standards stated in the NWCG Incident Response Pocket Guide and the NWCG Fireline Handbook.” That sounds fine except that, upon examination, neither the IRPG nor the Fireline Handbook contain a section specifically marked “standards”. This would lead one to believe that, according to the Red Book, everything in those two publications represents a standard. Yet, if everything in the IRPG and the Fireline Handbook is a standard, why do we have things titled “guidelines” in there, like the Structure Protection Guidelines (IRPG, p. 16) or the First Aid Guidelines IRPG, p. 37)?

In Forest Service Manual 5130, the following passage can be found in 5135.4:

“Wildfire suppression actions must comply with the Fire Orders, and levels of engagement shall be determined by and based upon iterative risk assessment and management (IRPG p.1).”

Language like “must comply with” is pretty plain and doesn’t leave much room for interpretation. This is the kind of wording that enables accident investigation reports to recite a litany of Standard Firefighting Orders that were “violated”, representing either causal or contributing factors of an accident/serious injury or fatality.

The recent interagency emphasis on Doctrine has emphasized the point that books full of rules may actually serve to make firefighters less safe. The reasoning here is that if firefighters focus too much on rules compliance, they will not be able to focus sufficiently on situation awareness and the task at hand. Lack of situation awareness puts firefighters at increased risk, and the inability to focus on the task at hand leads to mission failure and possible injury or death. The Red Book on page 01-7 says:

“The primary means by which we implement command decisions and maintain unity of action is through the use of common principles of suppression operations. These principles guide our fundamental fire suppression practices, behaviors, and customs, and are mutually understood at every level of command. They include Risk Management, Standard Firefighting Orders and Watch Out Situations, LCES and the Downhill Line Construction Checklist. These principles are fundamental to how we perform fire suppression operations, and are intended to improve decision making and firefighter safety. They are not absolute rules. They require judgment in application.”

Questions:

1. Do you believe that the firefighting practices discussed above are “common principles of suppression operations” and as such, are the “best practices for safe firefighting”, or do you believe that they should be hard and fast unbendable rules?
2. Are there some of these “common principles” that should be hard and fast rules, while others should simply be guidelines or best practices? If so, which one(s) should be rules?
3. If you think some of the “common principles” should be rules or policy, what should the penalties be for violating those rules or policies?
4. Do you think that all wildland fire management agencies need to have the same interpretation of “common principles” and “rules”? What happens if they don’t?
5. What do you think is the overall intent of written Guidelines, Policies and Rules?
6. What do you think the best approach is to make the fire environment safer for personnel?

On the MVU, CDF is often the first responder in many areas, remember San Diego County does not have a county Fire Dept. There are several paid and volunteer departments that serve some of the same rural areas where CDF stations are located, some have ambulances. CDF only operates ambulances where they staff Schedule "A" departments. The closest engine and the closest ambulance, no matter who's, are usually sent. Sometimes 2 engines go, 1 CDF and 1 the "local" department. Also there are a few areas served by private PM ambulances.

The schedule "A" department ambulances are not a de-facto CDF resource, responding to any call where CDF is dispatched first in, on a medical. They only go out of area on a Mutual Aid call. Dispatchers make it clear if it is an "Assist".

Cleveland NF runs some medical too. They do respond to traffic accidents near their stations and all accidents and injuries on the forest. Always calling for Mutual Aid for an ambulance and Medics if needed. CNF has also responded as Mutual Aid on medicals for other departments. Usually extended CPR, land a Medivac Chopper, traffic and other manpower jobs.

One thing that aids the Mutual Aid thing is that CDF, CNF and TNR share a dispatch center, which also serves many rural departments; and they have good communications with the other dispatch center serving South and East county rural areas; and a few of the smaller cities in South County. Thus CDF likely gets the bigger share of the Mutual Aid calls; particularly if a volunteer Dept. is primary. Same goes for structure and, of course, wildland fire. CDF provides a lot of Mutual Aid on structure.

All the other counties down this way have county fire for the back country. I cannot speak for Imperial County though, I believe they have a county fire department and use private ambulances. Nothing to burn there anyway except in the towns.

Someone that knows more please correct me if I am wrong; I think I have the basics down.

ht

Sometimes Chiefs need to retire to

• get out of the beltway mentality
• have the mental quiet to gain the larger perspective
• not care what your boss might say (You're fired)
• talk with those other retirees
• get fired up with a new perspective on life
• etc, any other suggestions?

NorCal Tom, also retired

Statement of
R. Max Peterson, F. Dale Robertson, Jack Ward Thomas
Michael P. Dombeck, and Dale N. Bosworth
Retired Chiefs of the Forest Service

On the FY2008 Appropriation for the U.S. Forest Service

As Chiefs of the US Forest Service from 1979 to 2007, we wish to express in the strongest way that the Forest Service has been put into an untenable financial situation due to the way fire suppression funding is being handled in the Federal Budget.

The current procedure of funding fire suppression is based on the 10-year average cost. That assumes that fire fighting costs are reasonably predictable and reasonable constant. Examination of historical data reveals that both assumptions are wrong – sometimes dramatically wrong. Recent years have seen increasing fire costs as the result of accumulating drought effects in the West coupled with a series of years that are the warmest on record. Many reputable climatologists and fire behavior specialists predict those trends to continue. These drought and temperature conditions have compounded insect and disease damage in areas affected and the severity of damage is resulting in rapid accumulation in fuels. As a result, and particularly in the West, the fire season is beginning earlier, lasting longer, with increasing intensity. These fires are increasingly difficult and expensive to control. These factors, coupled with inflation, have driven up the costs of fire suppression. Those trends seem likely to continue.

The Forest Service is faced with difficult decisions of how to pay for fire suppression activities that exceed the 10-year average. 1) The historic process of “borrowing” from trust funds is no longer feasible, and 2) the requirement that the FS must ask for the 10-year average fire suppression cost in its budget requests, leads to sudden and unpredictable reductions in funds for non-fire related programs usually in the middle of the summer when all Forest Service programs need funding.

Historically, the FS borrowed money from Trust Funds deposited by timber sale purchasers for reforestation (Knutson-Vandenburg or KV funds) and brush disposal (BD). Congress, then, routinely reimbursed those trust funds through supplemental appropriations well after the end of fire season when actual firefighting costs were known. Generally, this approach worked well enough, as the totals available in such Trust Funds were more than sufficient to cover firefighting costs. This was assured by the 2-3 year lag-time between the time those funds were collected (when timber was harvested) and when associated reforestation and brush disposal projects were scheduled after the timber sale was closed. Since the timber sale program was reduced by over 80 percent over the decade of the 1990’s, these Trust Funds are no longer even close to adequate to assure ability to cover fire suppression costs.

Now, the FS must rely primarily on “borrowing” from appropriated funds for congressionally approved programs in Research, State & Private Forestry, and the management of the National Forests. Since the height of the fire season in the West occurs in the latter 3 months of the Fiscal year, this creates an impossible and ever more routinely occurring situation in financial management. The FS has no way of knowing how much money to hold back from other programs to ensure that they can cover firefighting cost. This not only disrupts the ability of FS to plan their work overall, but severely impacts their accomplishments in Research, S&PF, and National Forest Programs. Even though Congress has financed these programs, the FS in no longer in a position to implement non-fire suppression operations on anything resembling a logical and plan wise basis.

This problem has been magnified by the decision of the Administration to, simultaneously; reduce the funds requested for non-fire related programs. From FY 2000 through the President’s budget for 2008, the proportion of the FS budget devoted to fire (both preparedness and suppression) increased steadily from 25% to 44%. These increases in funding for fire, coming at a time of ever more constrained FS budgets, has resulted in a 35% reduction in funding for non-fire programs when adjusted for inflation. FS staffing has been reduced by 5900 positions. With the 10-year average cost of fire suppression increasing by about $80 million per year (with more increases likely in the future) the overall ability of the FS to do its assigned job is more and more limited.

If you want an efficient and effective FS that Congress and the Administration can count on to carry out its statutory mission and congressionally approved and financed programs, this problem must be fixed by providing the flexibility to finance emergency firefighting outside the FS discretionary budget.

Jo Ann Fites, PhD wrote a 3 page white paper entitled Fire Acceleration in Chimneys and Canyons: What do we now know that could improve situational awareness and LCES? She gave me a copy at the Chief Officers Meeting in February. I don't have a digital copy.

You can find her contact info here:
www.fs.fed.us/adaptivemanagement/contact/

All firefighters in Spain are trained on the Fire Signature Prediction Method , Doug Campbell's system. They make briefing maps with trigger points for change, and note when there could be alignment of forces which indicate increasing rate of spread. I think when I took Doug's training in 2000 Drew was there also with the Ventura County guys. He was and is a FBAN for LACounty FD, like Terry said. Many FBANs are incorporating Doug's logical terminology for groundpounders to maintain SA. The course is being taught all over the West, in Spain and in South America.

Kipp,

Thanks for the photo. It may be a little too high tech with the tv screen above the green board, but otherwise good... Maybe there is some way to crop it out. Still working on cracking that nut.

Klamath NF Engine Captains,

I had a great time trekking Hwy 96 and a very fine time visiting you all. It was interesting to see the signs that said "Wildland Fire Station". Our Salyer Station and Big Bar Station just say "Fire Station". I knew that FS does not respond to medical aids per se, but it was interesting to see it spelled out in the sign that said Wildland Fire... Station.

When I asked, a friend who ran the dispatch shop on the Plumas a while back told me they were never allowed to dispatch resources for medical purposes, even simple things. Engines sometimes responded to accidents to help "direct traffic". When they arrived on scene the Engine Captain made the decision to do more first responder stuff if the situation warranted, like if people were dying and might not if simple medical aid was rendered.

Is CalFire tasked with responding to medical calls if an incident occurs in their SRA? Do they do more than just fire as part of their mission? Do socal forests/fire stations have MOUs with other responders like CalFire and the counties to help with medical aids? I know FS firefighters help with many more medical incidents in areas where there is more population. Does this only happen informally?

Hmmmm, in those large rural expanses, north and south, who helps if there's a heart attack or a broken leg? OK, I know from our remote ranch we can call for life flight (with a little insurance policy paid up front) or for an ambulance. It can take more than hour to arrive. We don't expect the "fire dept" to just show up. We're all basic first aid or EMT trained, too, and have two nurses in the extended family. Guess I just got to thinking of all the potentially helpless and not-so-smart people out there with few med resources... but those kind of folks exist in towns and cities too. Oh my, that sounds so non-PC and lacking in compassion, but there are lots of "helpless" people in the world! I guess people survive best who know how to take care of themselves and expect to do that from the get-go or have family who is knowledgeable. Like that young man who saved his own life in the recent college shooting with a tourniquet on his hemorrhaging femoral artery. He was an Eagle Scout. He directed a peer. We need more self-sufficiency lined up with situational awareness. When did planning to take care of yourself drop off the VALUES list?

Enough musings...
KNF I enjoyed meeting you. (Dan L., you should have a surge protector/power strip in your powerpoint box of goodies. I left mine for you. Actually I forgot it. Got another...)

Mellie

Thanks GA Peach.

Ab.

I heard more than 55,000 acres have burned.

J-tra-la

If it passes now would this make life worse for fire managers or does it not even matter? Would it it add to the paperwork? In January 2008 the new FS Handbook including doctrine should be fully operable. I hear they're meeting this week to rewrite it. Are these groups/individuals even communicating?

Do we have some educating to do? "Risk Evaluation" name of the game...

Tahoe Terrie

PS: AZ Trailblazer I do not have any more info for you. Sorry I can't help. Maybe talk to Drew Smith, LACO.

The benefits with Cal-Fire speak for themselves 3% @50, Vested time you give 20 yrs of state service, medical benefits are paid for, yourself and spouse. The ability to retire @ 90% of your three highest years. Medical benefits are really cheap in price. I have an HMO, some people knock it, but I have always had one so I know how to work it. Overall this place is much better. I work in Riverside as part of the county fire department and would never dream that I would make 92k as a Fireman with working minimal overtime and home a lot more with family and friends.

I am glad that I made the move from the FS to Cal-Fire !!!!!!!!!!!!!

SoCalFF

Jim,

Just wanted to forward some thoughts and concerns I have been having
as I have heard from our crews and what has been going on in the
winter/spring. I am not sure if others are feeling this way, but am just
getting one of "those feelings". I don't know what the best venue to voice
these concerns are. Do you think it is a good idea to voice them to Jim
Furlong, the ICT's? What do you think?

Jim just wanted to run a concern by you. It seems with nearly all the R6
crews, nearly each one of us are approaching this season with significant
changes in our overhead and temporary staffing. My concern is that I, for
one, am starting to feel a little uneasy with all the changes in personnel
especially at critical positions. The timing of these changes is not very
good and will have an effect on early season cohesion and team building and
bonding. I know this is happening on Prineville and so plan to use more
caution and pay more attention to training, the types assignments I take,
early out. To me, with so many personnel changes going on on my crew at
the last minute, I feel like several holes have been made in a couple of my
slices of cheese. I am guessing many of you are in very similar
circumstances if not sharing my general feeling about recent turnrovers and
personnel changes. I care very much about all of you and want each one of
you and all your crew members to come home safe, happy and whole. As we
approach fire season in 07, I urge good SA, erring on the side of caution
and reserve over aggressive behavior in the beginning.

Thank you, be safe,
Lance.
Superintendent Prineville Hotshots

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JH's reply he sent out:

Some concerns from Lance. There aren't many crews that aren't in the same
boat this season. Would like to solicit some opinions from the group on who
we want to relay this info to. Some possibilities to consider would be the
Regional Steering Committee, Shelby G, the ICTs, or the Coordination
Center, if we want to air this concern. I'd like to discuss this topic as a
group, so reply to all with the history trail so we can see where we're
going with this. I'd like to wrap up the comments prior to the IHC slot at
the Type I Team meeting on May 1. I'll be traveling to that meeting on the
30th, so please have any feedback in by 4/29.

Thanks, JH

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and another reply:

Hi all -

Thanks, Lance for bringing up the turnover issue - I agree that we are all
going through a growing year, and that it is a national issue this year and
not with just the hotshots, with districts, helitack, and overhead teams.

The La Grande hotshot are in a building mode this season - we have a lot of
new faces this year and some folks that are moving up into new roles

We have had a lot of crewmembers accept PSE's, go jumping, or graduate and
go on with their other life. As with everyone, the delays in hiring have
been costly as folks that we have been recruiting get job offers elsewhere
while we wait on ASC to make job offers.

We recognize that the start of this season is not "business as usual" -
pack test, mandatory training, saw certs, fire refresher and we can head
out the door after 80 hours training operating at the level that we were in
October.

We have a lot of learning, growing and team building ahead of us

Some of the things that we are doing this year includes:

- an two-day overnight team building session with the overhead prior to the
crew coming on - this will include a comprehensive review of our SOG's and
FOG, reviews of some of our near-misses over the years, and reviews of last
years AAR's and incidents reports. We are doing this away from the station
with no phones, IBMs or other interruptions to assure that we have quality
time together.

- A full 80 hours training before becoming available, with an emphasis on
team building exercises, group PT and field exercises

- Bringing in an outside source for a team-building session during our
two-week training period

- not accepting assignments unless the full overhead is available to
respond - which means a third week that we will not be available for
off-forest assignments because my daughter is graduating high school, and
Daddy is going to be home for this.

- also, we will have to really access assignments that we accept, and
resist the tendency to get our crew split up into small groups in difficult
assignments and breaking off my key folks to provide overhead to the teams

I'm excited about having some fresh blood and the energy that comes with
new people - I've "lost" some real good people, but have gained some
excellent folks, and have got some people moved into leadership roles that
we have been mentoring for years.

I guess the message that I would like to share is that we as a crew and as
a group are in a growing mode this year - not just regionally but
nationally - I am still getting outreaches almost daily for key positions
including Supts, Assistants and Squad leaders for crews across the nation.
It is going to be a challenge for many crews to meet the Ops Guide for
overhead qualifications and to pass the readiness review.

My take on our crew situation this year is that we need to continue be
honest with ourselves about our capabilities, and to carefully access
each assignment. (Ab's emphasis)

Good luck to you all in your last minute hiring and your training - we'll
see ya on the line

Willy

Hey fellas. Hope all is well. Wanted to let you know that BLM in St.
George popped a fire yesterday at about 15:30 and it is 300+ acres as of
right now. The temps were 62 degrees and obviously dry in St. George. I
figure we were getting 30 foot flames off of it at times, it was very
impressive for mid-April and 62 degrees. St. George's normal precip is
2.79 inches and currently it is .63 inches. It will be busy this year over
in this area. We ran wet line and handline until about 23:00 and then it
was too steep and big rocky to work, so bagged it for the night. I spoke
with dispatch this morning and they have ordered an ICT3. Sounds like the
last piece that we couldn't get tied last night is kicking up first thing
this morning. Well, I wanted to let folks know that they may end up here
for a fire or 2 this summer.

Take care,

Ken.

What kind of accountability is there for a forest supervisor who alienates or otherwise runs off all qualified fire and line personnel on their forest? This person has a rep for hating fire. I know somebody said it's their bosses, the Regional Deputy Forester and Forester, who are failing to evaluate. Are there qualification checkpoints and performance reviews built in? Is there any other way to bring them to trial if people get burned up this season.

I heard Doctrine is being rewritten in the FS Handbook -- and here we are 50 years later -- after the 1957 rewrite that laid out the 10 and 18 -- but how are Forest Supervisors like the one on the Angeles being evaluated and held accountable?

Free the Angeles!!!

please, noname

In one of the posts on hotshots back a week ago they mentioned
1-2-2 and 1-1-3 organizations. Can anyone tell us what that means?
Is one better than the other? Why do they want to know that?

KB

Todd

JL

Brenda, give me a call and I'll give you an update on what's going on with the media
package you all are still waiting to receive. The date for distribution of this stuff changes
more than I change hair styles.......

Love ya and all my little Z's too!

BatGrl12

Yes, Auntie B... haw haw. Ab.

Damon, Good luck with your new challenges. Don't be a stranger here. Ab.

I was a little surprised at how fast the fuels were drying out, so I looked this up.
The first link shows this year's 2007 western snow pack. The next shows 2006
and the last shows 2002, year of Biscuit and Rodeo, etc., etc.

Still Out There as an AD

I agree that all fire service employees should look professional when attending a service such as a funeral for a fallen firefighter. While not a FS or Fed employee, I too share in your frustration.

I attended the memorial for the Esperanza firefighters and was unable to attend Bryan's services. I was fortunate enough to call him a good friend during his time in RRU. Looking at the overall situation though, what is most important is that we are there to show our respects, while supporting the families, friends and co-workers through difficult times. I know that is what you and so many others did yesterday, and will continue to do so when necessary. Thank you.

Jlar64

DS

I want to remind everyone that Dan Fiorito, Union Hotshot Supt, is retiring in May. His potluck party is on May 19, 12-5 in LaGrande OR, Riverside Park. I will certainly miss you, Dan. Dan and others in his circle provided me great support as I went through medical stuff several years ago. I hear he's a mighty fine supt as well. Thanks, Dude!

If anyone wants the retirement party flyer with map, holler and I'll send it. Should be a good shindig.

I sure love all you folks!

Mellie

Im looking for any type of power point on GPS usage and the basics of GPS use.
If you know of anyone that has a power point or any type of packets that i could
use for a GPS usage class that i want to put on, anything would be much appreciated.

Thanx
T.V on the L.P

A photo slide show of Brian Zollner's funeral.

www.redding.com/photos/galleries/2007/apr/20/firefighter-funeral/1113/

Concerned

I have just accepted a Crew Captain position with Cal-Fire, Gablin Camp. Today I went into my boss's office, a man I have the utmost respect for and informed him I was resigning from the Forest Service. I would like to thank everyone that I have met and who has given me advice and guidance in the 15 years that I have been a Wildland Firefighter. I have had the honor to work with some of the most talented Firefighters in the Nation.

I will miss my friends on the LP, but it will not be a good bye, I will stay in contact with them and still take the kayak out for a nice fishing trip. Mark V, Stan S, Steve M, Chris W, Al D, Tom P, Lance C, Mike B, Scott M, Doug B, Mike S, Tony D, Steve D and Tim D, you have all inspired me in one form or another and I will never forget all the valuable advice, principles, and guidance you have shared with me.

Casey, the integrity and fire you have to help so many is amazing. Keep up the fight, I just wish the RO and WO had your passion.

Take care everyone and have a safe fire season this year......

Michael Salas
Captain, Los Padres National Forest

Don't be a stranger, Mike. You've been a member of this community -- far too long to disappear now; regardless of agency, we expect to see you here in coming years. Take care of that sweet wife and your little girl. Best wishes for your new career.

CalFire may not know it, but in addition to getting a prime firefighter, they're getting an excellent Hispanic firefighter recruiter, if you ever choose to play that role for them. What a loss for the Forest Service. Ab.

Does anyone have an informal teaching or training photo with an instructor in front
of blackboard or flip chart (no high tech/powerpoint) and students sitting at tables
or in desks. Casual clothes, generic, no nomex. Fire folks. Anywhere usa?

Could be outside with people working from picnic tables if the photo was the right
one...

Thanks in advance.

Mellie

AUSA must mean Assistant US Attorney, another acronym

Todd

Important information. No pretrial agreement! Ab.

For those of you who knew knew Kip, I apologize for not being able to contact each of you personally. The circumstances of his death are unknown at this time. I will keep you posted on the happenings through Ab, FS e-mail and if I could I would do it through his most favorite FS site.....AGLEARN just to hear him say the "F" word twelve times in a four worded sentence.

I am in contact with Miss Shirley; she is doing as well as expected and is with friends and her church family.. I will be taking Kip home sometime in the next few weeks, if anyone is interested in taking a trip to Jersey to see Aunt Shirley you are more than welcome to come along. I know that Miss Shirley would love to hear from his friends. You may send cards, letters, flowers etc to:
Miss Shirley Hale
15 Sheateau Thierry
Apt 213
Madison, New Jersey 07940

Donations can be made to the WFF, your local VFW or American Legion.

Thanks for the many phone calls. For those who have not heard back from me yet or I told you I'll call you right back and I hung up, I will.

BatGrl12 - I'm still going to bet against the Vikings just to piss him off.

EXCERPT:

"A lawsuit filed Wednesday by the labor union that represents employees at the National Weather Service could determine whether all part-time federal employees are entitled to a 25 percent bonus for working on Sunday. The lawsuit, brought by the National Weather Service Employees Organization, seeks to clarify that four part-time weather forecasters who work on Sunday are entitled to the same 25 percent differential that full-time federal employees receive for Sunday work. …The forecasters are seeking lost premium pay for the Sundays they have worked since going to a part-time schedule. …Congress approved legislation in 1966 that entitles federal employees on the General Schedule pay system to a 25 percent differential when they are scheduled to work on Sunday. But the law does not make a distinction on eligibility between full-time and part-time employees, Hirn said. … The lawsuit contends that OPM is discriminating against part-time workers by denying them the same premiums granted by law to all federal employees. "I'm optimistic that OPM is going to reconsider their regulations," Hirn said…."

Re Brian Zollner:
A webpage in memory of Chief Brian Zollner: www.cdffirefighters-riverside.org/
Not only is his death a loss to CalFire, it's a loss to our entire wildland firefighting
community. There's a condolences section if you'd like to share a remembrance
or message with his family and coworkers.

Mellie

Thanks for any help.

TS

You've probably seen this, not a powerpoint but a starting point if no one has a ppt: Crew Cohesion, Wildland Fire Transition, and Fatalities (pdf file) Ab.

A question:

Can you honestly say you have ever had a course in the Wildland Fire Signature Method?

The two training courses you suggest were created to lead people into Fire Behavior Analysis. Fire Behavior Analysis using computer programs etc is good. We need FBANS. You may be one.

We also need courses that provide groundpounders with a way to size-up current fire conditions on the ground in a moment by moment unfolding fire situation. Those courses you mentioned do not fill that purpose. The Wildland Fire Signature Method combined with LCES does a much better job to provide groundpounders with risk appraisal and fire survival skills. In this day of Doctrine and loss of experienced fire managers, we need people to have the skills to keep themselves safe on the fireground. We need a tactical groundpounder course in combined LCES and Wildland Fire Signature Method.

Tahoe Terrie

ADDITIONAL AMENDMENTS TO AB 384

As a result of the passionate and effective efforts of Lori Greeno, I am once again pleased to report that California Assembly member Anthony Portantino, Author of AB 384, The California Fallen Federal Firefighter Survivor Assistance Act of 2007 will additionally amend the legislation to include the survivors of those California federal firefighters who lose their lives in the line of duty while outside of California.

This amendment is of particular importance to the federal wildland firefighting community since so many of our firefighters travel across the country each year and find themselves risking their lives in unfamiliar territory.

It may take until next week for the text of the amendments to be actually added to the bill and we will provide a copy of the amended bill on our web site at www.fwfsa.org.

Again, our heartfelt gratitude to Lori for her advocacy for, and importance to the federal wildland firefighting community.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

I just returned from a very exciting weekend spent with hot shots. For weeks now the Sawtooth IHC has been wanting us to come to their 40 year anniversary celebration, give a presentation and be a part of all the fun. It was a hoot hearing the stories that all those old fire dogs had to tell. I was honored to be there.

As I was planning for that adventure, the Loan Peak IHC called and wanted to know if we would come to their station and do a presentation for all their folks returning for the season. So I made a weekend out of it and found it to be a very effective way to recruit 52 club members.

As I was driving home I had a thought that if the foundation could make it to all the IHC first season meetings with all the seasonals returning, it would help familiarize those who didn't know who or what the Wildland Firefighter Foundation was about with us and what we do. And also a great way to get them on the Gold List of the 52 Club. We had about 25 shot crews on there last year (thank all of you) and I would love to beat that this year. So this is my way of telling you, we just need an invitation and we will be there, plus it would keep me out of the office, lol. I think we will be posting to they said every time we get a gold member to keep the challenge alive. Way to go guys!

Burk Minor

Wildland firefighter Foundation
208-336-2996

Thanks! and God Bless!

Heather's Mom

Keep your fingers crossed that I can present a strong enough argument to get them to change this. Send some good vibes up my way.....

Lori

On a slightly different note. Could you please fill us in sometime on the history behind FWFSA and CPF/IAFF/etc? I know there's some there. I don't mean any bashing, just facts and timeline please? Relationships with organizations can change. The "proof is always in the pudding" so to speak.

Mellie

384 TO BE AMENDED WEDNESDAY TO INCLUDE TEMPORARY FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS

I am pleased to report that after extensive communications between the FWFSA and key members of the California State Assembly over the last several weeks, the author (assemblyman Anthony Portantino) of AB 384, The California Fallen Federal Firefighter Survivor Act will amend the bill on Wednesday during a committee hearing to include the families of temporary/seasonal federal firefighters to the list of those whose surviving family members will be eligible for a variety of benefits, specifically higher-education benefits under existing law.

The inclusion of temporary firefighters, especially given the fact that the bill's language, as introduced, excluded these firefighters' families from such benefits is a no-brainer since the bill and press releases from its primary sponsor, The California Professional Firefighters, specifically used the loss of Esperanza firefighters (3 of whom were temporary) as a reason for the need to expand existing law to "permanent career federal civilian firefighters". As you may recall in recent postings, it was the California Professional Firefighters which suggested that the inclusion of temporary federal firefighters would be a "budget buster" for the State of California.

The FWFSA was able to demonstrate to the Assembly that this simply was not the case. For further information, please contact the FWFSA at 208-775-4577 or through our web site at www.fwfsa.org.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Nice. Ab.

MS

Chief Bryan Zollner Memorial & Procession Information

Procession Formation Information:

Date: Thursday April 19, 2007 by 7:30 a.m. for a Procession route briefing.

Fire Apparatus with uniformed personnel planning to participate in the Memorial Procession are requested to arrive for staging at the Shasta District Fair 1890 Briggs Street Anderson CA 96007. Click Here for a Map

Upon the procession’s arrival at the Memorial location, the Fire Apparatus will be parked in a static display. At approximately 10:45 a.m. vehicle operators will stand by their vehicles at the position of attention, with their emergency lights activated, while the Family Procession passes by. All other uniformed personnel will be directed to form a "Sea of Blue" human corridor through which the family will walk into the Memorial area.

Chief Officers in department vehicles are requested to arrive at the Big League Dreams Sports Park, 20155 Viking Way Redding CA 96003 by 9 a.m. Click Here for a Map

Chief Officer vehicles will be parked in a static display and Chief’s will stand by their vehicles, at the position of attention as the Family Procession passes by at approximately 10:45 a.m.

Emergency Vehicles and Chief Officers are requested to RSVP at the below link.

R.S.V.P:

To R.S.V.P. to the memorial please follow the following link and fill out the R.S.V.P. form. www.fire.ca.gov/fire_er_fatalities_zollner_email.php

Further information regarding the route and the memorial will be given out at the procession briefing the day of the event.

Public Participation:

The general public is requested to arrive at the Big League Dreams Sports Park by 10 a.m.

Donations:

Donations to the "Bryan K. Zollner Scholarship for Future Firefighters" fund can be accepted at any Washington Mutual Bank branch.

In lieu of flowers, the family request that contributions be made in Bryan’s name to Shriner’s Hospital for Children Northern California, 2425 Stockton Blvd. Sacramento Ca. 95817-2215, Telephone (916) 453-2000.

Cards and letters for the Zollner Family may be sent to 6105 Airport Rd. Redding Ca. 96002 Attn: Matt Streck.

Friends wishing to send electronic versions of photographs of Chief Zollner are requested to send them to memorialinfo@fire.ca.gov and we will make a valiant attempt to include them in the Memorial.

From NOPS today

Precipitation Totals for 2006-2007 Wet Season
(Jul 2006-March 2007)

North Coast PSA
Eureka: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 34.18 Normal = 33.79 Percent
Normal = 99%

Mid Coast/Mendocino PSA
Ukiah: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 29.74 Normal = 45.36 Percent
of Normal = 66%

Bay Area PSA
San Francisco: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 =10.58 Normal =18.37 Percent
Normal =58%

Northwestern Mtns PSA
Orleans: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 34.85 Normal = 47.12 Percent
Normal = 74%

Sac Valley/Foothills PSA
Shasta Dam: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 33.60 Normal = 55.41 Percent
Normal = 61%

Northeastern CA PSA
Alturas: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 4.40 Normal = 9.21 Percent
Normal = 48%

Northern Sierra PSA
Blue Canyon: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 39.93 Normal = 60.37 Percent
Normal =66%

Eastside PSA
Susanville: Jul 2006 thru March 2007 = 2.25 Normal = 12.24 Percent
Normal = 18%

Nerd on the Fireline

Has anyone started the process for claiming back pay for hazardous duties incurred from low level flights? There was a letter from the USFS that came out in February stating employees that were authorized to perform work before December 16, 2006 may be entitled to back pay. I have contacted the USFS regional Human Resource office, but haven't made much headway. Since I no longer work for the Forest Service, but for a different federal agency that doesn't haggle over every little thing, the information on this back pay is slow coming. Any help out there would be appreciated.

Signed,
Region 7 Pay Back

Here's the latest from Palomar District in the message below. Look at
these closely. Notice how low the live fuel moisture readings are showing.

Fuel Moisture Graph

Compare this April to last April on the bar graph. Compare this April to
last September, their about the same. Remember Critical Fuel Moisture
Level is 60%. We are well below that and it's the beginning of the drying
season! Right now the annual grasses are green but slowly curing. Today I
heard CDF respond to a grass fire in Flinn Springs area so the grass is drying
out in the lower elevations. In a "normal" year, we would get grass fires
in May & early June that would burn the grass but not the brush because
the live fuel moistures were too high. This year the brush is already cured.

As soon as the grass cures, I expect to see these fires get up & move
rapidly through the brush. Make sure all of your folks are well trained for this
coming fire season that is just about upon us. Please share this info
with your crews ..................................

JR

I'd also like to hear about the R4 Team Conference held in Reno at the same time, especially the Lessons Learned presentations. I heard it was a good conference. Ab.

Funny how when even one post comes across so wrong, others reply as they perceive you to be, not as you know yourself. OA pointed out early on this forum that one "aw sh*t" from a new moniker takes about 20 "atta boys" or clarifications to correct. Glad you're willing to clarify and enter the dialog. Safety and training are what it's about. For many interface areas - not only in California - where there is great political pressure to fight the going and blowing fire, safety is about retaining experienced fire managers that have cool risk-assessing heads who can protect our youngsters while they get the training and experience to better protect themselves. Ab.

Ab,

Let me just add one last thing that happened to me during the conference earlier this week. A couple of nights ago I was relaxing by the pool when a high ranking DHS official sat down and we had a great discussion about job satisfaction. After I told her what I did in my former life she stated how much she admired people who work in the National Parks, Forests and BLM Field Offices. She went on to say that she felt that her job was meaningless in Washington D.C. even though the salary was good. When I tried to encourage her by stating that the policies she writes are very important and affects everyone throughout the whole country, she replied that she could be gone tomorrow with a change in administration and nobody would even notice. She asked me point blank if I remember who was the national director of my agency when I was on the Redding Hotshot Crew. I had to admit that I couldn't but I could name all other 19 incredible individuals I spent the 1989 fire season with traveling through 7 western states. I guess that was her point. The money isn't everything... it's what we do that counts.

Fire Geek

Ab,

As the PIO for this event I'd be very grateful if you'd give this
wide distribution.

Thanks
Matt Streck
CAL FIRE, Nevada-Yuba-Placer Unit

Matt, thanks for the info. Please let us know details when they're available. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sent: Sat Apr 14 16:50:05 2007
Subject: Chief Zollner Memorial Announcement

Chief Bryan Zollner Memorial Announcement

REDDING – Services for Bryan Zollner, Staff Chief of Operations for CAL FIRE’s Northern Region will be held Thursday, April 19th 2007 at 11:00 a.m. The memorial will be held at Big League Dreams, a sports park in Redding, California. The park is located at 20155 Viking Way (cross street of Old Oregon Trail) in Redding, California. (Please do not contact the park).

Details regarding a procession of emergency vehicles to the event will be released Monday, April 16, 2007 at approximately 1:00 p.m. A web page with R.S.V.P, contact and routing information will become available at that time also.

Thanks, That’s what I was looking for.

I will remember.

JE

thanks
R5-BCMx3

R5-BCMx3, don't worry about it. We're glad you wrote in. Please do so again. Discussing $$ didn't appear to be anything out of the ordinary to me, probably because it seems to me that FWFSA dues are the best value going out here in this chaotic fed fire world. Thanks to Casey and all at FWFSA for giving firefighters a chance to bring about change. Another way to collectively demonstrate "The Power of One". Ab.

The Desert Sun "Photo Gallery"

Inches from the flames: Opening hours of Esperanza Fire
Go to photo # 8

JE, As I recall, the description when it was first posted in The Desert Sun said it was taken at 0730 or 0745 on October 2. Another poster here may have more info.

May we ALWAYS REMEMBER.

I worked with Bryan here in RRU. He was at Bautista Camp I was at Oak Glen. He always called me Homebrew. Bryan was the type of person who would always go the extra mile to get the job done. I always wanted to do my best and then some when Bryan was my Strike Team Leader, Div Sup, Ops or IC. That’s the respect we had for him. My thoughts and prayers are with his family at this time. We lost one of the best CAL FIRE had to offer. He will surely be missed.

FC Sam Sanchez RRU

I spent five seasons working for as a firefighter for the FS. Last
year, I decided after much deliberation, would be my last season. I
have decided to pursue a career in journalism and am writing an
article about how fire policy affects firefighters on the ground. I
wanted to ask you if this is a topic you might be willing to answer
questions on and if you could help me find some documents. I'm
looking for a history of the Forest Service's total budget and
documentation specifically on the AMR. Is that description confined the
the FMP? Any help you could give would be much appreciated and please
let me know if you are comfortable answering questions.

Thank you,
Kyle Dickman

Readers, any help here? Ab.

Lobotomy, This Ab occasionally gets really really REALLY tired of the negativity and bickering. When posters step off into attacking personalities, it makes me wonder why I moderate this board. As did Mollysboy and others, I saw this current regions thread as heading into an us vs them non-productive discussion. It's easy to misinterpret words when there is no body language or facial gesture to accompany them. Thanks Mollysboy, Rockslide, Pulaski, jimhart and other oldtimers who were trying to bring in some positives. Highlighting the positives is also what I wanted to do with the "IHC or SJ-->Fire Manager" Project, besides capturing a bit of cool history. By the way, I have updated that. THANKS to everyone who is participating. Interesting stuff.

Firefighters know that those who show up have an opportunity to bring order out of chaos. Sometimes showing up makes you realize it's time to move to another agency through which you can better "shine your light" or "share your KSAs". That is a proactive action in my book. We're ALL in this together. Carry on. Ab.

There was no evidence of rotor impact on the snag at the IDP.

Doug

JE

Anyone remember that? Ab.

• What being a wildland firefighter really meant to us (helping people and protecting the land).
• How important it was for our Crew to work as a team.
• How proud we felt to be able to wear USFS gear (even though the packs were brand new).
• How lucky we were to be trained by a remarkable Captain whose main concern was to create a professional Crew that he can bring back home ALIVE, every time.
• Why the community bond within the fire family is so strong.
• And yeah, how cool we felt when we filled up the gas tank with our Nomex still on. People noticed and knew we were USFS firefighters. One smiled and waved at us.
• And yeah again, how good it felt to wave hello to another driver who had the same firefighter sticker on the back of his window like we did.

Although he’s eager to work with the Crew, Joe can’t wait to get assigned to an engine. He was a 17-year-old volunteer when the Cedar fire started in San Diego County and was on one of the first engines that responded that night. Since he was so young and a volunteer, all he could do was watch. But man, what a story to watch. He’s worked with the CDF, a municipal fire department, and the USFS, and has even flown a bunch of missions on tankers. Fire is in this kid’s blood. When I listened to him, all I could think about was how lucky I was to have the chance to be able to hear his enthusiasm, his dreams, and the love he has for the fire service. Imagine, going to work everyday with a firefighter uniform on, being ready to save some one’s life or home on a moment’s notice. That’s what he was really saying.

During one of our deep philosophical discussions, we figured there are two kinds of people in the world, those who go out and get a job to try and make lots of money, and those who go out to make a difference in the world. Money? Who cares, just as long as you can drive around in a fire truck and protect others. I think it’s a safe guess to say that most of us here are in the last group.

Being a gypsy myself, I’ve wandered from agency to agency and have heard all the jokes. You know, stuff like how it’s not a fire triangle, but a fire square. The forth line has your rival agency’s name on it. Take out that line and the fire goes out. Get it? I’ve been the butt end of those kinds of snickers like the time I wore my USFS shirt when giving a presentation about natural resources to a large room filled with navy-blue-uniformed CDF crews. I’ll never do that again. You could have heard a pin drop, even when I was using some of my best lines.

But you know, whenever I’m in a new town I usually end up finding my way to a local fire station and talking. No matter if the trucks are green, red, or yellow. It just happens. In fact, I had a great talk with a good friend the other day who has worked with fire for the BLM for a very long time. I think we disagreed about a couple things, but our common language put all that into the proper perspective. I took advantage of the wisdom another good friend in the CDF has accumulated over a storied career as we worked together on some fire planning issues this week. Remarkable stuff he taught me. Some of the best dinners and conversations I’ve had this past year have been in San Diego city fire stations. The mayor rejected their raise yesterday you know.

It’s perfectly reasonable to feel dumped on when you see so many things going the wrong way. This is especially true with all the liability, politics, and pay issues that have come up recently. Not depending on a career in the USFS to support my family, I can’t fully understand all the conflicts many have written about here. However, I did have the evil princess of doom dominate the last couple years of my previous career, so I do know what it is like to work under difficult conditions. I ended up quitting, but only after I ran the witch out of the profession. Not a bad trade, but I know one that is not usually available to most.

Anyway, I guess my point is that, well, sometimes it’s good to just close ranks and appreciate the strength of our community. There really isn’t anything like it.

For me, today was pretty lousy for a number of reasons. Doesn’t matter why. What did I do? I grabbed a beer and the cigar I had been saving for a while and went outside on my deck; did some thinking. Went back inside and grabbed the photo I have of the Crew I trained with last week and went back outside. Puffed a few and had a couple more sips. In the photo, Joe is standing to the right, skinny, with a yellow Nomex shirt hanging on his young frame, smilin’, and full of life.

He can’t wait to get assigned to an engine.

The beer and cigar were good. Remembering a young firefighter’s hopes and dreams made them even better, at least for this evening.

Please stay safe this year my friends. And listen to some of those kids.

jimhart

Jeff L

Pulaski

I was injured on an initial attack fire while working for the Gallatin
National Forest as a GS-4 temp employee. The claim is on-going. I would
be happy to provide the documentation I have accumulated regarding my
interaction with OWCP.

Sincerely,

Cobey

I'll pass your contact info on to Shari. Ab.

Please don't program either in any radio.

Fred Buhr, Frequency Manager - CA, HI, NV
USDA Forest Service, IRM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please be advised the following frequencies 163.100 and 168.350; R5
Tactical and Government Shared frequencies will be removed from Forest
Radios. Seize Use of the above frequencies/Channels.

New replacement radios will have above frequencies removed from them.
All old radios will be gathered, and turned in to radio shop. Future
correspondence will take place on direction to turn-in all old radios, and
the issuance of new radios. Another side note, we are no-longer authorized
to use R5 Travel Net and Travel Net frequencies... Thanks for you
cooperation.

Patrick K(snip)
USDA Forest Service
Service Area
Electronics Technician

I think he meant cease. Ab.

Lobotomy,

Is it Rhode Island and Connecticut??

Onelick

Back in the 80’s there was a hotshot captain with the Mendocino Hotshots named Patrick Ford. Patrick left the Forest Service after that to pursue his real passion of being a Blues musician. Since then Patrick and his brothers Robin & Mark formed two bands, The Charles Ford Band and most recently The Ford Blues Band. Along the way Patrick wrote a song about the Mendocino Hotshots titled the Mendocino Hotshot Blues.

Patrick says this about firefighters “Until you have walked in the boots of a wildland firefighter, you have no idea how much they give of themselves physically and emotionally for very little pay or appreciation. In “Mendocino Hotshot Blues” I have tried to pass along a taste of what it’s like. I’ve seen the day turn to night as the smoke got so thick it blocked out the sun. I’ve seen the night turn to day as the flames lit up the sky like the sun had just come back up. I’ve seen fear on men’s faces as things got out of hand and they began to ponder the possibilities. There are all kinds of blues in this world. Some you are born into, some just happen, and others you create for yourself. Firefighters chose to do what they do and must accept the consequences. We should all be very thankful they have made that choice. This song is my way of saying thanks.”

Rockslide

Everyone is free to change jobs and migrate to a place in the fire community that suits their "comfort zone": let's not kick each other over those choices just because they are different than our own. We will ALL end up in California, Oregon, Montana, Florida and maybe even some of the Eastern States (Remember Walsh Ditch in the mid-1970s??) on major fire events, and the Public we serve doesn't give a rats a** if we have green or red trucks, bugles or empty collars, get paid mini-bucks or mega-bucks, or live in a trailer park or a gated SoCal mansion: they only want the fire out, quickly and efficiently.

Bitching about your situation, or criticizing others for whatever reason, isn't going to make the fire community stronger OR make things batter in your world.

Enough fire philosophy for tonite: be safe in the days/weeks/months ahead, no matter where you are, or who you work for!

Mollysboy

You can field all of the typical counter arguments; “they” (pick any fire agency you want) could never provide the same kind of protection that “we” provide; “their” training is not up to “our” standards; it will cost more when its completed; “they” (fellow firefighters) would never let “their” agency take over ours; they (any agency) can not cross state lines, etc. It does not matter what argument you want to make, when embarrassed, “the U.S. Congress will make something work.” If this region loses control of its federal lands, you can kiss the rest of the regions good bye. Your R-9 job will disappear in a heart beat.

With the exception of the U.S. Military, there is nothing that cannot be contracted out to another government agency or to a private contractor. If you have read some of my previous postings, you may recall that 25 years ago, during the Air Traffic Controllers strike, I was one of the military Air Traffic Controllers who were ordered to staff every single FAA Air Traffic Control Tower and Radar center. This occurred within a few days after the striking controllers failed to return to work. It is a lot harder to replace Air Traffic Controllers than it is to replace fire fighters. At that time, the military had a fraction of the total number of certified Air Traffic Controller’s in the country, but “the U.S. Congress made something work.” At the time of the Air Traffic Controller’s strike, the federal government had a very limited system to replace and train new Air Traffic Controllers. Why should they, the system only needed to replace the “normal” retirements and disabilities. But, within just two to three years, almost every Air Traffic Controller had been replaced. “The U.S. Congress made something work.”

In all regions, the total number of federal firefighters (forestry technicians) is a drop in the bucket to the total number of paid firefighters in California. We have 40 plus colleges with fire technology programs in California. There are probably 600 to 1000 students currently enrolled in California fire academies (my college has 77 in the two academies that are currently running, and I work for a small college). If R-5 loses control of its suppression capabilities, the “U.S. Congress will make something work.” Once they have made it work here, they will make it work everywhere. Every single federal wildland firefighter had better get on the same page, start fighting for the same common goals, support the FWFSA, and pay close attention to what’s going on in R-5, or “the U.S. Congress will make something work.” As R-5 goes, so goes the rest of the system. Don’t let one of the worlds finest wildland fire agencies become something we read about in history books!

Ab, as always, thanks for letting me rant.

Ron

Swagger and big smile, high standards: indeed, a great loss. Ab.

signed

R5-BCMx3

Can you make it a payment by credit card? Ab.

JPR

1. List of crew names that are not certified in the region and the year
they were established.

2. List of crews that are going to meet the 1-2-2 organization by start of
season.

3. List of crews that will only meet the 1-1-3 organization by start of
season.

4. Number of vacancies by position that are hindering the crews from
meeting the 1-2-2 organization.

Thanks,
Johnny

007

Don't tell the R-5 fire managers how we get along quite well with less
people, less money, and older equipment. You're playing right into the
hands of the agency administrators who don't give a tinkers damn about fire
management and don't support our programs. I have been fighting like hell
for years to get more money, more people, and newer and improved equipment
to better provide my firefighters with the basics of the job to get it done
more efficiently, effectively, and safely. We push our firefighters way too
hard on forests like mine with a heavy fire and prescribed fire workload.
Our 'Management Team" is cutting fire positions when they don't need to and
shouldn't. But our agency administrators don't know their rear end from a
hot rock about fire management programs. I have argued and used agency
policy to support my point, but they don't give a damn. They don't give a
damn about Safety either. It is all lip service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's make sure we get all of our "Gag-Learn" done, but then we won't staff
the engines with firefighters or engineers. I'll continue to fight and work
through channels and outside of channels so my firefighters are supported with
a safe and supportive atmosphere within which to perform the fire management
job. So don't you dare tell them all how great it is with nothing, and nothing
because they don't support us!

As for the Angeles patches. It is a way to show pride and professionalism
and esprit de corps in your organization. Just like sports team wear
uniforms, and fire and police agencies, and numerous other organizations.
Send me some Angeles patches, I'll put em on my uniform. Fire stations,
districts, forests, hotshot crews, fire prevention organizations, helitack
crews, smoke jumpers all have crew t-shirts, sweat shirts and caps with
their logo or crew name. It is a way to take pride in their outfit. Someone
pointed out the other day about LE forest service uniforms with their own
patch on the right sleeve and a different badge. I think what the Angeles
did is great and all fire personnel should have a fire management patch on
their right sleeve.

You are not doing your job in fire management if you're happy with just
enough to make the job a little more dangerous. I hope you're not in a
position to supervise fireline operations with your backwards attitude.
Everyone who works in fire management should be doing everything they can
to improve their programs and to be at their best in the safety and
effectiveness of their firefighters. In today's forest service in my region,
if you're truly working to improve your fire management program and you're
not pissing people off, then you're not doing you're job.

Here's an old quote and don't I remember who it's from, "A man does what he
must, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures, and that is the
basis of all human morality."

Battle on Angeles,
Old C-Rat

R9 Captain

SC

Former Rotorhead

My FMO asked me this morning if I had read any of the posts in regard to 5EV. I hadn't actually had the time to do that lately, as I have been busy trying to fill some major holes in a Helitack program that has been around for 30 years. After scrolling though the posts, I feel a bit compelled to offer a bit of information.

First I would like to thank "Student of Reason" for doing what I expected the media and others looking to sell a story to do, focus on one paragraph of the report. I have to admit that I did the same thing the first time I read through. I do ask you to go back and read it again, this time skip the one paragraph that you focused on.

One of the reasons that Jenks, D, and RD have a different take on this is that they have been to the crash site. These folks and anyone else that has spent time on the Salmon River Breaks know that 2000' is a long way when you're going up but it's just a hop, skip and a jump when you're headed down. Another factor is that most of these folks have flown this mission before. The flight path that 5EV was on that day was not typical. On a nice clear day, the typical route would be further West over the South Fork. The apparent route was down a spur ridge that leads from William's Peak Lookout to the confluence of the East Fork and South Fork of the Salmon. Krassel is then a few miles up the South Fork from the confluence.

Another thing to point out is that the weather observations for McCall do not represent the weather conditions on the South Fork. McCall is 20 miles upwind with a 3500' tall barrier in the middle. I was on the Sheep Creek Fire trying to get personnel demobed for days off at the time of the crash. We could not get a helicopter in through the smoke that was between McCall and the Sheep Creek Fire.

Next, I want to mention that Lilly hated flying and Monica was very conservative. It may have had something to do with wrecking her car and being burned over in the month or so prior to the crash, but whatever the reason, that was the case. Quin was very respectful of everyone around him and for those who believe he was reckless, a hot-dog, or otherwise can find comfort in knowing that he would have been flying at a most conservative level with those passengers.

The numerous failures mentioned by "Student of Reason" indicate that Mike and myself failed at doing our jobs properly. I would like to think that by 6 months later someone would have come to me and told me where I screwed up. My crew is my number 2 priority in my life, right behind my wife and sons, I assure you all that had I believed that there was reckless flight taking place, I would have done whatever was necessary to eliminate the problem. There are pilots out there who do not care for me because of that.

On the topic of open top baskets, pick up a copy of the new R4 helicopter contract. They are no longer an option.

My final take on the report is that:

1. For some reason the aircraft had deviated from its typical flight and was following a spur ridge.
2. If the aircraft knocked over the snag at the IDP it was flying within 90' of the ground.
3. If the contents of the basket started coming out after contacting the snag, it would make sense that it was the pilot's side basket that contacted the tree since there was paint from the tail rotor in one of the QBs.
4. If number 3 is correct, the nose of the aircraft was likely canted to the left.
5. If a pilot had visibility issues, he would try to maintain a ground reference.
6. It is easier to see out the side of a helicopter than the front.
7. A gray snag is hard to see in smoke.

If I have learned one thing from this past summer, it is that people like to make assumptions. I did. After experiencing the summer from hell and having my crew deal with rescuing mushrooms hunters from a van in a river, saving lives of people in a plane crash, being burnt over on Little Venus, losing 4 incredible people when our ship crashed, fighting brain tumors, and numerous other things that seem so petty now, I have a much clearer perspective. I hope no one else ever has to deal with one of these scenarios, but if you do, try to come out of it a better person.

Hoping for an uneventful summer.

Doug Marolf
Krassel Helitack Supervisor

Doug, thanks for writing in. We're with you and yours, man. Condolences. Ab.

You might want to consider the values at risk and the complexity that we deal with here in R5 before you go sending out a arrogant email. We can't go riding around like a bunch of cowboys in type 6 contractor engines like those in other regions do. If you came out here with your attitude toward R5, this place would eat your lunch like it has done to many of out of region fire resources with that attitude. Those of us that have worked here most of our careers choose to work here because we love to be challenged and we have a huge sense of commitment and pride that other regions have lost do to their inability to stand up and do what’s right for the taxpayers -- and that means no contractors.

Your WUI and R5 WUI are quite a bit different. Air tankers don't sit unloaded here as they do in other regions. If we dispatched and responded with fire equipment like you have, we might as not ever get dispatched. Because the fire is going to eat your lunch. Our dispatch is generally 3 fold any other region and there’s a reason for that. When you start to work 600-800+ hours of OT like most of us do just in this region, you might realize we have a huge fire load like no other in the US. And maybe you should remember R5 is: who set the identifier of captain, bc and dv in place for the rest of the regions to follow?

So if you want to take the road of less resistance and leave R5 then that’s your issue. For those of us that stay here because we love the sense of pride, commitment, aggressive firefighting, professionalism and a year around fire season deserve to be compensated accordingly. Keep in mind year around fire season too.

R5BC

Article on FS staffing in SoCal
www.towncrier.com/pages/stories/story2.html

Dave Nish
Texas Canyon Hotshots

The fed side of the fire family will certainly miss you Dave. Good luck in your new career. Don't be a stranger to theysaid. Ab.

D2, you'll never be simply a statistic to us. Many thanks for your service and best wishes in your new adventure. Luckily you're still part of this community. Ab.

Loss of a good firefighter. I'll hold his family and friends in my thoughts. Ab

Before you go on thinking that we are the almighty and act accordingly, try working here NOW and living here NOW and dealing with the B.S. day in and day out. I am sorry you left this region I do not know ALL your reasons for doing and so and do not really care, but that option is not open to me since my whole family lives here and I do not want to leave them.

So get off your soap box, try to see the issue from our perspective: try to understand that the cost of living here and in other interface areas has gone wild and we as federal firefighters trying to live and work in such areas are way behind in pay and benefits. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why we have a retention problem NATION WIDE.

So R-9 guy try supporting instead of trashing; it will benefit you as well as federal employees in all the regions in the nation!!!!!!

NORCAL Capt

OH by the way 10 years is a short time.

This is my first post here and I might be out of line but..... Yes, I used to work in R5, but after a short break, I now work in another region. R5's should maybe look at other regions and see how they function with less people, less money and older equipment, we seem to pull it off quite well. There are plenty of places other than SoCal with higher living costs (i.e everywhere) and if you want to work for the government you deal with it. It is called public service and be proud of it! As for fires, we all have fires! Why change the uniform by adding patches? A uniform with chest and shoulder candy doesn't make you more of a firefighter or less of a firefighter. You can take pride in the service by being a professional and wearing the standard uniform, people will know who you are and will respect you for not what you wear but for who you are. You just can't go changing things without going through the proper channels. Professionalism starts at the station, crew or module level, it will spread to the upper levels, try it. And for all you R5's that want a better government job in a different region after reading this, spend sometime in Tan and get 5 point VP or better yet get 10 point VP like me, the MAM's didn't care what uniform I wore.

Happy govt worker.

I would like to add to your analysis with some completely and some partially true "benefits"

Project work prepping burn units yields scouting time for wild game and berries to supplement the velveeta and fruit loops.

If you hear an elk bugle in the fall, you usually have enough credit and comp hours left over (from taking 8 hours of reg. pay and 6 hrs of credit for spring burning/training OT) to take the rest of the week off and hunt it, butcher it, and throw it in the freezer.

The "leftover" MRE parts become your lunch for the next day, and the cheese is a hit for your kids in the cafeteria at school.

Half of the recipes in your house can utilize applesauce, pears and peaches from the MRE's as well (think fruit salad)

When you take the kids to the store, they cry because the thrifty mart and food bank don't stock "Chums".

You can scout the good firewood areas while on patrol, and also have credit hours to get off work until the heat of day, and the start of hoot owl. Selling firewood will let you take that year's overdue honeymoon.

MT Firefly

haw haw. Ab.

If you check the stats for 2006, CA reported 8,193 fires for 678,906 acres,nowhere near the 25% stated. Actually more like 8.6% and 6.9% respectively.

No, if you want talk true percentages, take a look at the Southern Area (48,632 fire or 50% for 2,632,358 acres or 26.6%) Even the Eastern Area had a larger percentage of fires with 14,418 fires or 14.9%. We have a much larger land mass to protect here in the eastern half of the country (regions 8 & 9) and much larger population base (R8 95,000,000+ and R9 83,000,000+ VS CA 36,000,000+) albeit a lower overall population density than most of CA.
The vast majority of our forest lands in the R8 and R9 are WUI lands yet our regional fire budgets and individual forest budget are much much smaller than CA has. Most of South OPS already has the 25% increase and North OPs has anywhere from 25% to the "Rest Of US" rate. R8 and R9 are almost all entirely"Rest of US" rate, yet we have more wildfires and burn more under Rx fires than almost all of the other regions combined.
I get tired of hearing how hard the R5 folks have it with the pay system. I am sorry you chose to live in one of the most overpriced areas in the country, but don't expect sympathy from those of us who are doing the same job as you for less pay. True, we don't carry SCBA's and roll on medical like R5, but then neither do all of the R5 FS/BLM/NPS fire crews.

You chose the pay system you have when you chose the job and location you are in. If you don't like it, there are always jobs flying in the other regions. I know, I did. I spent 5 of my 10 years in R5, and I left. Partly because of the extreme cost of living, but a lot of the reason for my leaving was the constant "holier than though" attitude out there. I mean, come on, when the region host a regional fire meeting in another region and the RFMO (Ray Q) starts it off by saying R5 is the best fire program in the country, you gotta admit a bit of an ego.

R9 Captain

Does anyone have any info on standards for the distance unprotected
personnel should be from vehicle fires? SOPs for the use of SCBAs in
the Forest Service?

Answer is: there is no set distance to be from a vehicle on fire. Safest thing to do get away at least 200 feet.

Way to many factors:

1. How big a vehicle? small car to 18 wheeler represents a huge size difference. Also, huge difference in BTU release potential.

2. What is in it? personal belongs or 6000 gallon of metalethaldeath, for fun it has a mixed load of solids and liquids which are all on shown on the placards.

3. What kind of fuel? gas, diesel, propane, battery, hydrogen.

4. What is around it as it is burning?

5. Weather

And when you talk of unprotected personnel, I hope you are referring to wildland firefighters in their type of PPE. It will not work for that kind of work. The only type that works is full ensemble Structural turnouts, hood, helmet, gloves, boots, and SCBA. Oh, by the way mine way about 20-30 lbs. + the SCBA at 25 and change. Anything less is foolish.

Best advice I can give you is: should you have a fire in your vehicle and it is determined that it is small (I mean small, not big than maybe 2 x 2 feet) then use the fire extinguisher and put it out. Gas and diesel do not blow up they burn, but they do flow like water.

Supply every apparatus in your forest with a North America Emergency Response Guide Book (NAERG).

Hope this helps!

Zimm

The aircraft has some serious weight and balance issues. Once this problem is solved by the use of counter weights, the useful load available would not allow it to haul enough retardant to make it viable and useful. There is also no serious interest out there from the US or State Government agencies.

Firefly

As far as your statement that we are "too cool" to do
anything but fire, where the hel* did that come from.
My engine does just as much project work as any engine
outside the region. Now we do do alot more training
than other regions, but again we have different
responsibilities than you do. Yes, we are required to
role on medicals, car wrecks and other public needs
where you probably aren't. And don't confuse "too Cool"
with "professionalism", now I will admit there are a
few areas where people are pretty arrogant but it is
localized.

Now the next thing is something everyone including
yourself should want and that is 100% MEL, wouldn't
your life be easier. Expecting Congress to give us a
fair shake isn't to much to ask. Being able to employ
more people isn't to much to ask. Not worring about
our declining budgets year after year isn't to much to
ask. And having Old Fire Guys realize that people and
priorities have changed and they need to change with
the times isn't to much to ask for.

Thanks Ab
billfire

Here's his photo from the Wrightwood website:
Gene Zimmerman

also a few more (in)famous fire people...
Mick McCormick
Jim Wilkins
Ralph Domanski
Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Joe Millar
Jeanne and Joe
Don Studebaker
Terri Decker

Mellie

Anyone have a photo of Gene Zimmerman? Ab.

• Wont be safe until we get our own job series...

Not sure anyone has ever equated classification with safety. Got a bet for you...let's take a year and you count the number of times elected officials, agency leadership, anyone actually, refers to these employees in public as Forestry Technicians/Range technicians etc. I'll count up the times those who are in a position to make such a simple classification change use the term "wildland firefighter" to describe these employees.

Let's see who wins. Even in brochures put out by the Agencies about how great it would be to do this kind of work, official pamphlets and brochures refer to these positions as being a wildland firefighter. The Post-Katrina report from the Administration clearly stated the Government needs to continue to rely on land-management agency wildland firefighters...

You've got federal Dept. of Defense firefighters classified as such, why not wildland firefighters? They are eligible for federal firefighter special retirement, why not classify them as such? It is not a safety issue, but it is a morale issue and a common sense issue. I dare say that such a classification change would do stunningly good things for retention & recruitment. And...it doesn't cost a thing to do so.

• FS firefighters from CA deserve more pay than other FS employees from CA

The issue is not simply "more pay" but proper compensation. This includes all wildland firefighters from all land management agencies regardless of location. Feel free to justify why the land-management agencies should continue to use your tax dollars to pay cooperators portal to portal pay at 4-5 times the equivalent rate of a federal wildland firefighter while taking their own firefighters on the same fire off the clock . Justify the fact that some cooperators have made over $100,000 in OT alone on federal assignments while our folks are taken off the clock. Justify why these federal wildland firefighters go on a number of FEMA assignments, whether it be hurricanes, picking up shuttle parts etc., and don't get paid proper OT.

These are fundamental compensation issues that need to be addressed. Not addressing them leads to what we are seeing in high-cost areas in California...a large number of feds going to other agencies. Hey its your tax dollars...you can pay them as feds or you can pay them 4-5 times more as CAL-FIRE folks.

High cost areas such as SoCal do need to look at ways to retain folks. You might remember many years ago Congress enacted FEPCA, The Federal Employee Pay Comparability Act. Sadly, each year the president, whether Republican or Democrat has used "national emergencies" as a reason to not implement FEPCA. Perhaps if it had been actually implemented, we would not be seeing some of these problems.

Most FS employees in CA deserve better pay. Again, fundamental pay issues. The Federal Executive Board is addressing the problem on behalf of all federal employees and, we hope, NFFE is doing the same. The FWFSA has the luxury of being myopic and working exclusively for federal wildland firefighters.

• Any manager that does not march on Congress...

I haven't seen any effort to seek 110% of MEL. However, Most Efficient Level means just that, not a percentage thereof.

• We want to have special patches...

Haven't seen too many frat rats that risk their lives on a daily basis...Coming from a military installation that was slated for closure by BRAC, I can tell you that we did the same thing to keep morale up. It worked to a great degree. Having pride in who you are, what you do etc., rubs off on others and has a definite positive impact on one's performance.

These are not just rank & file firefighters coming up with these ideas, these are chief officers who have been in the system long enough to know what is needed to instill some morale etc. I did the same thing as a chief officer. Given the environment of liability, alleged budget reductions etc., anything that can help keep our folks in place (again as a benefit to the American taxpayer) should be viewed as a positive effort.

• We're too cool to do any work not involving fire or our equipment..

You could be a bit clearer on that. Do you mean too cool to travel across the country for days on end away from one's family in a non-pay status to pick up shuttle parts, help hurricane victims?

Yup, the sun still comes up...as does the pile of bills on the kitchen table of many federal wildland firefighters. No one has suggested the world revolves around California but most know "as California goes, so does the rest of the country."

C'mon old man, this is the 21st century. Perhaps in your day all you needed was the sunsets and the smell of pine to pay your bills. That just isn't the case in today's world.

Respectfully,
Casey

Your quote:
1. We won't be safe until we get our own job series number.
2. FS firefighters from CA deserve more pay than other FS employees from CA
3. Any manager that does not march on Congress and demand 110% MEL is a traitor.
4. We want to have special patches, insignia and other "cool stuff".....just like frat rats.
5. We're "too cool" to do any work not involving fire or our equipment.

Just looked out my window. The sun is still there. The world does not
revolve around California (I know....that's heresy!).

Old Fire Guy

I wonder what region you work in?

Your post really kind of ticked me off as well as a few others I am sure of. I am not here to get in a pis*ing match, just saying hey enough of the slams on R-5 fire folks.

Not a single firefighter in Ca thinks the world revolves around us, we just have oh say 25% of the wildland fire incidents counted each year here in Ca. Now that's just a guess but think about it we have more fires and a higher cost of living than the rest of the nation. As for Ca or R-5 fire folks, we are not looking for a war with other regions, just asking for what is right and way past due!!!!!

Nationwide FAM folks morale is lower than what it should be with a very high probability that this season is going to top last year and cause more injuries due to minimal staffing levels

So with that Old Fire Guy, smile now because I am sure that you will be having egg on your face soon!!!

NORCAL Capt

Is that good or bad?

64 of one, 64 of the other... I haven't decided...

LT

The good news is that we have made recent changes to help with our fire fighter retention issues...We lowered the pay scale by $200 so our firefighters are now eligible for food stamps, which for most employees equal $247 in food commodities...net gain to FF's... $47. With the $47 dollar increase we were able to increase their health insurance premiums by $10 and gained dental coverage (extractions only). This still left $37 worth of Fruit Loops and Velveeta on each firefighters table. Needless to say management is very happy. The only problem with these changes is the agency issued coin holders...The food stamp cards don't fold up small enough to fit in the key chain coin fobs. Any suggestions?

Oliver Moore

ps...I wasn't around on the first of April so my agency update is a little late...

I did a little snooping, here's what I found....no specific distance
requirements for unprotected personnel, just says to avoid the
smoke....duh!

There is some good info on SCBA requirements for our
agency........
http://www.nifc.gov/red_book/2003/Chapter11.pdf

--FSM-5137.4
--USFS-FSM-5135.3

I doubt this is the most current version, but maybe it can help you find
what your looking for.

Jim W.

I have been in Fire and Aviation Management (FAM) for over 27 years and
seen the rise and fall of budgets and workforces.

The National Fire Plan (NFP) of 2000 was helpful to a point. But we built
a machine we could not feed. Some units built too much of a machine. Since
that time we have seen a steady decline of WFPR (Preparedness) Now our
domestic budgets are very constrained . The economic term Guns or Butter
comes to mind. Bottom line, we can’t spend Billions of dollars in the
Middle East and expect to keep domestic budgets at intended NFP levels
something was going to get cut. Other non fire parts of land management
agencies have suffered these decreases to an even greater extent. To date
Fire Management still has the lions share about 45% of the USFS budget.
Other functions continue to find creative ways to get a piece of that
share. This may be cost pools or primary purpose charges. Let's face it,
when WFSU (P codes) is depleted and fire borrowing (taking) begins, other
agency functions are not happy with their losses and they don’t see FAM as
a friend.

Some of the latest contributors seemed pretty worked up over rural fire
assistance funds being withdrawn by DOI. While others are upset about R5
loosing WFPR dollars and reducing their firefighting workforce. Here is,
where you may not get much sympathy. South zone of R5 has almost 1/4th of
the national WFPR budget. Regions 1,2,3,4, North Zone R5, 6,8,9 and 10
probably don’t have much sympathy for any one of the south zone forest
putting 5 engines on blocks or not hiring 30 seasonal firefighters. At the
same DOI is suffering the same funding challenges.

So why would you give millions to cooperators when you can’t fund your own
folks??? In fact the same cooperators have no problem coming to federal
fires and charging substantially higher equipment, personnel rates and
administrative fees of over 25%. I would say DOI made a difficult but
reasonable decision, if it was within their desecration.

Back to reducing fire fighting capability or putting engines on blocks.
First we don’t really put anything on blocks in the USFS unless we
surplus the equipment we still pay in to a Working Capitol Fund for it.
What we do is, we don’t hire folks to staff them. Telling a congress
person that a unit is not going to hire 30 young people may not have a big
effect on them, unless they are real influential young people.

I have been thinking a lot more about what you could say that would mean
more to congress or the public who we serve. So work with me here! Rumor
has it that the Federal Wildland agencies are about 97% effective in
initial attack (using WFPR and a little WFSU$$). We know that the
remaining 3% become large incidents that cost lets say 2-4 billion WFSU
dollars to fight. Now you may say that 97% is not a good number. Use
anything you want for this exercise. I’ll use the 3% we don’t catch and
say they cost 3 Billion to fight. That’s 1 billion per 1% (see were I’m
going) if we decrease our national effectiveness to less then 97 or what
ever % it will likely cost another billion per 1% loss of effectiveness.
Now what it actually cost for a 1% effectiveness change is a little tough
to say but let’s say it was 100-300 million. Spend a 1-3 dollars to save
$100.00. That’s good risk management. We pay that much in ATM fees.
Perhaps Congress doesn’t think that way, but I think the American people
might get it. I am sure I am over simplifying this but I’m trying to take
the emotion out of this and put it in economical terms.

I haven’t said any thing about resource or property damage. That cost lots
more in some places. And there are some places that we should not be
fighting fire at all.

Just my thoughts

CS

JT

Things do not feel good at the team meetings. Lack of focus and cohesion.
Low morale.

CIIMT1 will be led by Rich Hawkins, fine leader, Chief on the Cleveland
NF. Jerry McGowan will act as DPIC. He's a good fireman as well, Chief
2 on the Stanislaus NF and one funny dude.

JEB

Harpo

Well, they couldn't very well wear nomex. Snort. Haw haw. Ab.

1. We won't be safe until we get our own job series number.
2. FS firefighters from CA deserve more pay than other FS employees from CA
3. Any manager that does not march on Congress and demand 110% MEL is a traitor.
4. We want to have special patches, insignia and other "cool stuff".....just like frat rats.
5. We're "too cool" to do any work not involving fire or our equipment.

Just looked out my window. The sun is still there. The world does not
revolve around California (I know....that's heresy!).

Old Fire Guy

Good advice for those there, though those that have done so in the
past have really been slammed for trying to protect themselves.

I am speaking from previous experience with this person and fortunately
I am not working on that unit! Though I do have many close friends that are.

Old Green and Gray Guy

I needed to do a little research on your comments for the sake of balance and fairness. I don't think I have met the ANF Supervisor. I don't personally know many people from SoCal.

Here's what I have found out: The ANF Supervisor has lots of line officer fire experience both from the Plumas NF where she was Deputy Forest Supervisor and from the Angeles NF. She has been well mentored and trained in dealing with large fires. She has interacted with incident management teams as forest administrator on large fires. She has not "come up in fire" on any kind of fire crew the way many old firefighting forest supervisors from yester-year did, but she does have extensive administrative fire experience.

As for taking fire money, she has done nothing wrong there. When the FS Washington Office centralized the administration, those administrators that were left behind became a direct cost to whatever the forest project was. The forest function with the most FTE is Fire. Thus, Fire on a forest now pays for all administration. The reason for this is that administration costs come off the top of the budget and are funded at 100%. So the ANF Supervisor simply follows current Forest Service budgetary procedures. If I am incomplete on this, anyone, please let me know.

You said, "the ANF Forest Supervisor has decimated the rest of the staff on the forest. Who is left?" Good question. As best I can find out, more than a year ago all or most of the ANF District Rangers moved, quit or retired; soon after that all or most of the ANF District FMOs followed suit. I do not know the reasons for this exodus, but if there is a problem, it is not something the old or new FS Chief would know about. It would not even be on their radar screens. No, any problem on the Angeles, if there were one, would come under the purview and responsibility of the Regional and Deputy Regional Forester who supervise all of the R5 Forest Supervisors. They should know about problems and take any action they deem necessary to correct them.

I do wonder if she knew about the patches and the pins. Many forests have pins. People sometimes wear them and sometimes not. If she knew, why did she not object earlier? If she knew, but thought it was OK was she later instructed to send out the letter and, if so, by whom? Who OKs pins and patches, anyway?

That's the best research I can do on short notice.

Mellie

Alan Sinclair
Tonto NF.

Please correct me if I am wrong. But, is this a chaotic situation, or what?

What I have been reading in this post is disheartening. I retired three years ago after 30 years of service with an outfit that HAD strong pride and leadership throughout. What happened? What happened to just goin out there, throwin dirt, and gettin the job done? Disengage? What happened to the promises of pay increases, MEL, full time employment, promises of filling vacancies in safety sensitive positions, and all the other stuff with acronyms that no one understands anyway? Yes, there were these kinds of promises that management HAD made long ago. Badges? Who cares if the units are proud to wear badges and patches and Bud stickers and unit hats and collar brass and all that kind of stuff that builds moral and pride? For the love of life and occupation, let it happen, if it's a TEAM building icon. Hey, YOU managers, do ya get it? There's firefighters out there that need your leadership and support. Crap or get off the pot! You field folks, if it's necessary, stand up and be heard, make changes, and move on. Easier said than done in the present environs, but ya can't win if you don't play.

Thanks to the leaders throughout my career; Mr. Sandborg, Mr. Benik, and Mr. Caplinger......

Thee Picker

A grievance can always be filed if there is documentation of wrong-doing.
I don't know if there is in this case but actions, if warranted by documentation,
are better than words.

Albuquerque

The forest is losing folks at a high rate to better paying jobs with other employers, not just other fire agencies. Though the fire agencies are sucking up all the bright, up-and-coming folks as fast as they can, Edison Co. is also scoring many simply because they pay MUCH better and have better benefits.

Besides pay, the other major reason folks are leaving is because, as pointed out, the ship has sunk. The sinking began in July 2001 when the present supervisor arrived. It actually started when a great Ranger retired off the Saugus the day before the Supervisor arrived. For those that do not know, this FSup has a track record of employee abuse and bullying. They did the exact same things as the DFS on the Plumas. When they left there, there was a huge sigh of relief, and sympathy calls and e-mails abounded to people on the Angeles with condolences re their new FSup.

Fire should not feel like the lone Forestry Techs. They are just a much larger target of opportunity, after all the FSup has decimated the rest of the staff on the forest. Look and see who is left. . . no one!! Those that remain are shell shocked and trapped in the reign of terror precipitated by the FSup and Deputy.

I believe Aberdeen asked what their fire quals are. Well that is easy: NONE whatsoever.

The former FS Chief and obviously the New Chief do not have the intestinal fortitude to remove this cancer from the agency. They are part of the problem by permitting and condoning the FSup's actions with NO action of their own to enforce the words they say about tolerating no harassment and fostering workplace health.

The ANFSup talks out of both sides of their mouth. I have personally witnessed them telling WO and RO people how they support fire etc, then they turn around and take away funds and badmouth the fire program.

As said earlier, there is no leadership in the Forest Service and their ability to recruit and retain employees is diminishing every day as MANAGEMENT (as opposed to leadership) does not get it. When you work in a hostile work environment, why do you think there is a recruitment and retention problem?

Old Green and Gray Guy

Zimm

He "managed by wandering around" and would show up in your shop just to say, "hi". He got results in difficult situations because he backed his folks and knew that he had their back. It made making the tough decisions a little more palatable. His leadership during the Engine 57 Support effort was exemplary. Chief Don Feser made a significant positive difference in his career and I was the better for working with him.

As this fire season progresses, the Angeles National Forest Line Officer will have her hands full explaining why the fire program (and the 40% vacancies that have not been filled) on the Forest that sits next to Los Angeles has been gutted. A very sad state of affairs brought on by inept bungling on the part of the Supervisor.

NoName 66

ANF Fire Patch

Roadrunner2

Incident Command Team Meetings are this week, I think.

Don Feser's precipitous retirement leaves CIIMT 1 without an IC. He was an excellent Incident Commander and his loss is a big one. People may not realize it, but Type I ICs have the equivalent status within government of a One Star General. Most here know -- but the Public may not know -- that we need incident commanders and the ICS teams they command for dealing with large fires and other disasters -like Katrina and terrorist attacks on NYC and the Pentagon. Getting to the level of Type I Incident Commander takes many, many years of fire and leadership training and experience. It takes a certain kind of no-nonsense safety attitude as well. There are not so many people with incident commander quals out there.

Type 1 Incident Command Teams
Type 2 Incident Command Teams

I would hope that whatever the cause of Don's retirement that he could be invited back and waters could be smoothed. I know that's a way "outside the box" thought. I shake my head when I think of this situation in the context of the loss of such experience and talent of one of this nation's few non-military One Star Generals.

Everyone is stressed out. Can't we all just take a deep breath?

Mellie

If anyone has updated Teams info on the two team pages linked above, please let us know. Most regions that don't have year-round fire, as we do in California, have already had time to make selections and have their organizational meetings. Region 5 has no breathing room. Might be one more reason why people are "stressed out". Ab.

I think it is great that they had patches and wallet badges to show a sense
of pride in their organization.

I saw the letter from the forest supervisor. It was disgraceful.
Unfortunately, I am not surprised. That is exactly the non-leadership that
exists in the forest service today. Why would anyone who leads an
organization or team not be doing everything they could to be the best they
could be, to set the example and support their team or program with the
best of everything? For those who wonder where the leadership is from the
region or the washington office or their own local forest, there isn't any.
If there was, the LEADERS would be DOING something. But they are not, so
there isn't any.

About 4 years ago, I was called in to the forest supervisors office on my
forest and told that fire personnel could not wear the forest service
uniform, nor could we use the radio unit identifiers system (Division,
Battalion, etc.) that my AFMO and I had proposed to incorporate on our
forest, nor could we wear collar brass. I was given a letter that states in
part:

"To refresh memories, common, plain language and terminology will be used
over the radio for this forest. Last names will be used for sending and
receiving radio messages. No titles (i.e. Captain, etc) will be used in
place of common, plain terms, except for the use of engine numbers. Through
recent discussions, the fire organization may be creating an appearance of
being separate from other resource areas. By creating new radio terminology
for people along with call signs, the effect will only increase the
division between fire and the other resources. This common language also
helps with incoming fire resources, knowing who's who, communication
between Volunteer Fire Departments, and assists with dispatching and local
knowledge......The wearing of specific uniforms and clothing pins of rank
causes a breakdown in the appearance of operating as one seamless agency.
All units have gone to personally purchasing unit T-shirts. This should be
the norm for uniforms. An alternative is to wear nomex
shirts................"

This did cause a big drop in morale on my district. How the letter ever
made it through HR I don't know, telling certain FS employees they can't
wear their agency uniform is illegal. We had no support from our own forest,
nor S.O. fire 'Leadership." Shortly after, we began wearing the USFS
uniform again and this past year we have gone to using the unit identifiers
on the entire zone. But battles like this still continue.

So the old adage to the forest service applies, "Lead, Follow, or get out
of the way." What is happening on the Angeles is following a continued
pattern of negative support for fire management. Forest Service
administration: If you won't support fire management and don't want to deal
with it anymore then move fire into it's own federal fire department.

Battle on Friends,
Old C-Rat

My comments are not intended to minimize the authority of a Forest Supervisor to issue such a memo, but rather to gain knowledge about his/her background in Fire to think that such a note is needed and appropriate.

Aberdeen

I agree that letter from the Angeles NF Supervisor lacked a lot of tact, but it leads me to believe that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes. It is a story I will probably never hear. I do know she is technically correct on both the badge and patch issue.

Personally, if a badge or patch will help firefighters (sorry, Forestry Techs) in California do their jobs, then issue it to them. I am out here in North Dakota, and don't have a use for a badge. Different areas have different issues and you fight fire according to the area you are in. I have heard (please correct me if I am wrong) that in certain areas of CA, FS firefighters can be called to respond to a variety of incidents that we would usually be responded to by structure firefighters. Something on the uniform to separate highly trained forestry techs (fire fighters) from your run of the mill forestry techs would come in handy.

There is also the esprit de corps issue. Army and Navy (don't know about the Marines or Air Force) all have unit badges( Army) or rockers (Navy) that are worn on various uniforms to show that a person is associated with a certain unit or ship. I have rockers from all of my past ships and shore billets. It would be a point of pride for me to have a patch from my past FS stations.

LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) have a variation of the FS uniform. Unfortunately, the Forest Service does not have any designated firefighters, so a variation of the uniform would not be an option. I think getting a designation for wildland firefighters would solve many issues, this one included.

Domaque.

Old Forestry Technician

Yes I heard the same thing about the patches and badges. Well
the truth of the matter is, Don isn't leaving... He's gone. There are
some rumors floating around but they all seem to hold the same story line.

>From what I hear Chief Feser abruptly resigned without any signs. What I
did hear is that he was threatened with possibly three days on the beach.

If I were in his shoes, I'd do the same. I do hope that Chief Feser finds
it in himself to help continue the fight for what we deserve. I don't know
if a resignation is along with retirement is grounds for signing some
piece of paper stating that anyone should not speak for five years. Chief
Feser did many things to shed some light on the current situation. His FAM
meetings were constantly criticized every year by the Forest Supervisor and
Fire Management from other districts. I wish everyone great luck in what
ever they do with this job or actually moving on to help provide for their
families in other careers. I for one will stay on this life raft and
figure a way to assist in the fight for what is rightfully ours. It may
not happen in my career, but possibly in the younger generation. Hold your
heads up and fight hard... Those of you who are leaving, fill out those
exit interviews and state exactly why you are leaving, don't hold back or
it will continue for the friends you leave behind.

RAP

R5BC

Hello-

Does anyone have a photo of the patch and badge in question?
I’d like to see what they look like thanks.

Signed “Curious”

Hang on to those for eBay or for the Smithsonian. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek.) Ab.

On your second part: Universities have the same problem in recruiting faculty to California from out of the area. People's disposable income takes a big hit when the come to California to work because it's so prohibitively expensive to live here. A house costs more, gas is VERY expensive. Food is about average. Moving hits them WEALTH wise as well. There are financial incentives, but I don't think they're used very often. I think that takes line officer approval and we're in a time of want.

On your first part that you "get": People who are already here and who managed to start purchasing a house when it was more affordable are reluctant to leave. As you say, understandable.

Mellie

I've also heard that 90% of fire manager hiring is done locally.
Why do you think it's that way?

AL

Ab, please add this clarification:
I have heard that people get hired and they are then not willing
to leave the forest or the district to advance. The applicant pool
coming from out of the area is small too. I get the first part but
not the second part.

The rumor I had heard is that the ANF Forest Supervisor asked that all new fire patches, fire badges w/ wallet and ID cards be collected from all ANF employees and handed to her. All names of employees who had such items to be written down and placed on her desk. I attached a copy of her letter (pdf file) that has been circulating around (hopefully Ab can insert). She states that these items are illegal and maybe she's right (I'm not sure) but her lack of tact is the issue. With all the retention issues already at hand, the ANF Fire Management Team had the foresight to do what little they could to help boost employee morale. Giving back to the employee some sense of pride in their job to say they are "Wildland Firefighters"!! I know several other forest's that are/were looking into doing the same. How could Don or any other ANF fire manager face their employees and say "our leader does not think you deserve such a title or recognition as Firefighter", and strip it away. It is bad enough that our WO leaders do not recognize us as firefighters. Oh, they'll give us the lip service but when you look at our pay structure and the smoke and mirrors in regards to the regions retention issues, it's no wonder our regions artery is turning from green to red. But to have our local Forest Supervisor (s) to do this just lowers that bar even more. We are not a sinking ship, it sunk. The survivors are already in the life rafts and everyone else is swimming to shore wondering if another ship will rescue them. It is in my hopes that the leaders of this agency will address these issues soon. Let us know that rescue is on its way!

PS: If you're not a member of FWFSA, become one. It is time we take a stand.
I would even go as far as to let your fire managers know if you are even considering CDF. It's time we send a message (this time in BOLD )!

Signed,
Praying for Change!!

I think when chiefs retire, they have to sign an agreement that they will not talk for 5 years. If Don doesn't clue us in, it will most likely be due to that kind of restriction. Ab.

Another wrinkle to this: As we all know, 90% of R5 hiring occurs within R5 and often within the local forest, so once R5 firefighters are hired there's a hole left behind them lower in the pipeline. The R5 Fire organization requires a pipeline of trained firefighters, stepping up --from the entry level on up, with training and experience. That training and experience is costly and should get figured into any retention wrangling. As far as hiring goes, a truly open and continuous roster is what's needed and being worked on. Beyond that, we also need to keep the excellent new people we're investing the big bucks in, get apprentices converting and wanting to have a career with the FS.

As far as the critical issue of retention of mid-level managers goes, that seems pretty hopeless to me in the short term without congressional intervention and direction, both on the financial incentives side and the revision of the Hastings-Cantwell bill side. (Sorry I can't remember the bill numbers.) That said, I also do not see Congress being able to allocate more money directly to FS fire until we're done paying out the big bucks for the Iraq war. As someone said, "Decisions made in times of plenty are different than decisions made in times of want." Money would go a long way to fixing the retention problem in socal. Without more income or other taxes, our nation is in a time of want.

TC, there are lots of good heads are trying to noodle this out, and lots of managers not sleeping well; and those close to retirement, there are lots of those looking forward to a good sleep when they hit 50. You know this whole SNAFU is not simple by as long shot. In my last post I didn't mean to sound like I am making light of the retention issue. It's hard to want to try when a good chief retires precipitously leaving behind a hole in the forest fire leadership near Los Angeles as well as a Type I incident command team without an IC. It's hard to want to try when 12 people on a socal forest that burns jump to CalFire all at once or when practically all the managers on a norcal ranger district that burns bail out (or you know they're in the process of bailing). Some forests and interface residences and some socal watersheds may burn this summer. Sad potential reality. No property or woods is worth wildland firefighters' lives or injury in my opinion.

Simply put, in my last post I was, and am, hoping we can soon celebrate a more streamlined hiring process. Sometimes success on one problem can free us a little to tackle another problem, creatively and with renewed vigor. Hope is an important feeling. Hopelessness/ helplessness means one doesn't bother to try.

I hope everyone is aware that there is power in a collective grass roots association approach like the FWFSA. All voices should be heard in a democracy. Collective voices usually gain more attention. Those of you who haven't joined FWFSA, should. Think outside the box... Advocate professionally and collectively for yourself.

Mellie

Folks, you can still contribute in honor of Brian's effort or to the 52 Club. Don't delay. Ab.

I am a family member of one of the Krassel crash victims as well as a
wildland firefighter. I have been reading the postings and appreciate the
vigor in which this is being debated. As a family member, however, it makes
a TREMENDOUS difference to me in determining what happened with
N355EV and when.

From what I understand, the current factual report may be the last
word from NTSB on this matter. From what I understand about NTSB, they
will not put out a probable cause report unless they are sure that there
is probable cause.

From what I understand about the crash, 3 possible things happened. If
anyone else has any better/different ideas please MAKE THEM KNOWN.

1. The pilot, for WHATEVER reason, clipped a snag on the cargo basket,
   possibly making contact with the tail rotor in the process, backhaul and
   empty cubes flew out and up through both the main and tail rotor
   systems.
2. Enough garbage and crap flew loose from the open cargo baskets to
   cause 355EV’s tail rotor to fail, then the pilot hit the snag.
3. A combination of 1 and 2

In the end it’s a tossup between pilot error (THEY always seem to go
after the pilot don’t THEY) and unsafe/antiquated equipment. I have
personally flown in ships with open cargo baskets in the past and quite
frankly can’t believe that they are still around.

As far as trying to determine what hit the ground when, that is hard. Like
Jenks, I too have been to the crash site, hiked for hours trying to make
sense of things. In that terrain it’s just hard. I FULLY BELIEVE, like
Jenks, that pilot Quinn Stone (don’t forget he had a name) put that ship
in the only possible place for a crash landing, except perhaps the East
Fork River itself.

Please continue your debates/discussions. Please always strive for
truth. Do not ever forget that there were four people on this ship who
no longer get to speak for themselves.

D

Thanks for your thoughtful and reasoned post. We're very sorry for your loss. We're also sorry to have lost some fine people. Heartbreaker. Ab.

AB,

This week I was attending the California Fire Mechanics Academy at the US
Forest Service Training Center in Sacramento. While there I ran into one of
my old DoD colleagues who now works in R-5. We got to talking about what
was going on with the Exodus of well qualified fire personnel from the Feds to
CDF (of which I will never refer to them as CALFIRE).

I asked him what he knew of the migration to "redder" pastures, and he was
told that there was 150 Federal vacancies created by the Exodus. Recently a
long-time CDF Prevention Officer who had been on the job for almost 40
years retired, and during his party the Retirees from CDF are leaving by
the hundreds. In the coming eighteen months Battalion Chief positions will
be approaching a hundred vacancies, Fire Captains will be over two hundred
vacancies, Engineers will be close the Captain's numbers, and what is
sparking this mad dash to the finish line is 3-at-50 CALPers which could
give the employee between 80-110% of the employees after time, sick leave
conversion (which Feds like us don't get to count toward retirement), and
Annual Leave time is calculated for Final Compensation.

Tell me why at 42 I shouldn't roll the dice and try CDF or any other local,
county or State fire agency? 150 people are doing that this year.

Governor Arnold Schwartzeneggar has moved that the State's "lucrative"
retirement fund be re-evaluated and moved to a more market-performance
based fund similar to what other states have. Like the federal CSRS vs.
FERS, those in the old system get to stay there and new employees get the
lesser retirement system.

Its not just CDF having this problem with retirees. Many other large and
medium sized career fire departments in California are having similar
vacancy issues in Fire and Law Enforcement. San Francisco FD has had
hundreds of openings from vacant positions, and has had over a hundred
promotional opportunities but has not had a test in a while.

In the last year the CDF Director and the Governor opened the hiring for
Captain and above to qualified applicants who did not work for CDF. Before
that all positions above Engineer were restricted to permanent CDF
employees only, not other fire agencies. The CDFEA Union didn't like that
and fought hard to prevent the State of California from opening the list,
which they did not succeed at. Now CDF is going to benefit not only from
experienced personnel, but also gain from others OUTSIDE their agency who
could invigorate the agency with new ideas and experiences.

How can you turn down 80-100% of your paycheck for 25-30 years of service?
How can you turn down NOT BEING FORCED OUT at age 57 when you still
have the physical and mental fitness to continue as long as you like? How about
the simple choice of "I want to leave when I am ready"?

One retired Division Chief from Sacramento Metro Fire District retired last
year, and after his time in service, his sick leave accumulation, and
leftover Annual Leave he'll be pulling down 105% of his top salary for the
rest of his life. Such-A-Deal!

As a Federal Firefighter, I'll be lucky to reach 50% of salary under FERS
at 57, then when I draw on my Thrift Savings Plan at 59 they will take away
a portion of my FERS, and when I draw Social Security (if its still there
in 20 years) they will take another chunk of my FERS away. As a Federal
Firefighter I'll lose any leftover sick leave, which will probably be in
the neighborhood of thousands of hours that won't be added in my retirement
calculations. As a Federal Firefighter I am limited to 432 hours of Annual
Leave on the books yearly, which is a lot if you are on the 40-hour work
week, but is not much time on the 72-hour work week.

How about working only three days per week? The average 40-hour firefighter
works five days per week, not counting overtime during the summer months on
fires. There is nothing like having four quality days off for yourself and
your family, versus rushing home from work during the 5-day week and
rushing through your weekend with the family.

Now we see a lot of Federal Fire Management Overhead are either going
somewhere else for greater rewards and benefits, or simply retiring, and
who knows where they will be working for that extra fire paycheck after
that?

I'm worried about the trend of moving to an all-contract fire system on our
federal lands, the forcing out of all federal wildland fire suppression and
overhead and depending solely on a contractor. What happened to the days
when the private contractor was CALL-WHEN-NEEDED (CWN), not this
granting of moneys to staff private crews or engines to staff 40-hours per week
during fire season? "We'll call you when we have a fire, and not before".

I don't care what the opinion is about Contractors, other than FEDERAL
FIRES NEED TO BE MANAGED AND SUPPRESSED BY FEDERAL
RESOURCES. To do otherwise simply leaves it open to corruption and no
oversight.

The Federal Fire Managers need to stand up and start telling Congress and
Management what you need to do the job, which is good quality people, with
good qualifications, earning a decent wage for the area they work in, who
are supported by their leadership.

I hope you Forest Service Fire Overhead retiring be not afraid to speak out
publicly about the problems going on in Federal Wildland Fire Management.

MOC4546

Did Chief Don Feser retire or is he still around for a few weeks?
And was it because of a meeting with the ANF Forest Sup?

R5BC

"Costello: Look, you gotta pitcher on this team?
Abbott: Now wouldn't this be a fine team without a pitcher.
Costello: The pitcher's name.
Abbott: Tomorrow.
Costello: You don't wanna tell me today?"

- Who's on First? by Abbott & Costello

www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml

All Hands on Deck Man! Man The Life Boats!

Who's On First?

Look again at the T&D web site, under "T&D Pubs" and then under the Safety topics: you'll find pubs and videos about "Fed NR field employees working along the Mexican Border"; "Personal Safety Awareness for Field Employees"; "Personal Safety in Remote Work Locations"; and "Violence Awareness Training for Field employees".

All these are intended to help Natural Resource workers in the field deal with threats, intimidation, physical attacks, etc while on the job.

vfd cap'n:

Thanks for the links to the Buchanan reports. A word of caution (admittedly biased) about the OSHA report: it was their (OSHAs) 1st ever wildland fire fatality, and some of us on the USFS Investigation Team thought that they were just a bit ignorant and overbearing at the time. One OSHA guy, who had never been on a wildfire, demanded that we deliver "ALL fire training materials" to them. Wise Ass Dick responded: where would you like to park the semi-trucks and trailers that will be coming from NIFC. "What's NIFC" they responded? We got over the lack of mutual loathing and insults, but the USFS argued strongly, in writing, about their findings.

Dick Mangan

• there is either no money or
• we are the highest paid FS employee's in the nation, so why do we need to get a raise?

I also hear about educating Congress. Well how much educating do they need? The FWFSA has been educating Congress for the past 4 years and they don't get it either, maybe because there is a war going on right now and they won't pay attention until one of their houses burn down in a fire. Don't get me wrong: Casey you are doing a hell of job. If our leadership cared half as much as you do, we wouldn't be having this discussion and employees wouldn't be leaving.

Numbers, I am tired of hearing about supplying numbers. They don't need more numbers or facts, they already have them. It's time for the FS leadership to pull their heads out of the sand and start doing something about it.

Here's fact that I see: if nothing gets done after this year to help out our LOYAL EMPLOYEES, then nothing will ever be done and the Forest Service will be a thing of the past because of all the people that will be leaving to go to an organization that takes care of their employees and can run a fire organization.

Now is the time to see what the RO and FLT are all about. This is a big test to see if they do something or if they keep sitting by while our organization keeps bleeding.

An-R5er

Hemorrhaging. Ab.

R5 - welcome to what SZ feels on a continuous basis in losing quality people to other agencies. This is nothing new for us down here. Now the rest of the region got stung and it becomes an issue and a crisis for others. Remember what we were told? "IT'S NOT THE MONEY!" I think this is called denial. Well now, what is the FS leadership going to do about it? Let's see, hire like we did when MEL came around. This was recommended before, but now it's a brilliant idea because the DOA, I mean BOD thought of it. BRILIANT! BRILIANT! Nice going, just figure how to get though the all the hoops to get the jobs out sooner than later. Hey, here's a novel idea, maybe you should get the jobs out on the street that have been sitting for almost two years now. I hear that CDF is now putting out announcements for BCs, hey CDF, or I mean CALFIRE, tell your recruiting officers that you can get some very well trained, well experienced FFTs with loaded red cards from the USF of S. You see, this is what LA County does, Kern County does, Burbank Fire does, LA City does, and Santa Barbara County and City does and so on. But remember, you don't have to tell them it's the money, fed employees will come just because you have pretty red trucks, we don't care about the money, we're idiots.

Does anyone out there think that the FS leadership should take any responsibility for the big loss of quality, well trained, well experienced people we just lost? I think so. I think heads should roll! You see they knew it was coming and just sat on their thumbs. Maybe that's why we were told it's not the money, since it's not the money why would the FS care that we lost and will continue to lose quality people that take MONEY to get them so well qualified. Since our leadership doesn't think it's the money, which in turn creates our retention problem, by the way, the other agencies probably think we're fricken idiots for such remarks and can go right to their unions and tell them that we can save MONEY by opening our announcements to outside agencies and save us a bunch of MONEY in training them. BRILLIANT! BRILLIANT! Plus, we can tell them we have pretty red trucks. Those fed employees will jump right over to ride in them because they don't care about the MONEY!

You watch now FS. Your chiefs will come to you soon, those of you that are left that is, and they will demand that you RUSH, through your annual training and be ready to fight fire. Oh yeah, and by the way, make sure you have a couple of engines available while you train. Don't tell the safety officers in the region that we do this, though. And don't pay attention to what we tell you about how important it is to train together, just go! Oh, by the way if you don't have enough people just use ADs. Don’t forget to cram all the required training in for your apprentices too, you know, the ones that have been laid off, make sure they get their training in when you do your other critical training, then sign them off as if they did it so you can be ready and good to go. Hey, BOD here's another idea, how about using the demo at the 5 level? Oh, I forgot we can hire GS 3’s off the streets. That will help fill the critical need. And we can train them when we want, right in the middle of fire season. BRILLIANT! BRILLIANT!

And ____________ (you fill in the blanks and continue the post)

I think I’m beginning to understand why the Chief on the Angeles left.

Signed FireWhirlz

We just took a recent major hit when Chief Don Feser quit, after our Forest
Supervisor yet again failed to realize the issues we face. We are also
faced with Don Garwood's retirement coming up this month sometime. Our
major backbone on this forest has been broken and we don't really have
anyone that can fill the position. The ones who can fill it, won't. This
is a dam* good job, but the current management refuses to practice what
they preach. I sometimes wonder why the mental abuse still exists. My
district still can't fill AFMO position for the second year, we just
received a new Ranger after the old one left due to a disagreement with
the Forest Supervisor.

Now that we are severely tapped of experience, what is left for us? Does
this mean the fight for Firefighter rights is diminishing? Has everyone
forgotten Engine 57? Driving around with memorial sticker on our vehicles
doesn't quite make things better. I'm sure that even the crew of Engine 57
would like to have become unionized through out the Forest Service. Giving
us Firefighter status will help keep more experience with us giving us the
right to be treated fairly. Is it possible that we'd ever be able to pull
away from our current Forest Supervisor and stand on our own? Can Fire
really become it's own entity? We know what the answers are, but can we
get the results we need before another Fatality occurs? I sure hope so...

I hate seeing my friends leave this agency.

R.A.P

The R5 BOD and the LOT (Line Officers' Team) got together with a HR rep
and our esteemed Gary B to work at streamlining the hiring process similar to
the way hiring was streamlined during the MEL buildup. If the program
can be made to work and it seems it could be, it should save lots of time and
money. I am optimistic about the hiring part improving.

Mellie

In a post from “Jenks” of 4/7 regarding helicopter hover drops, the purpose of forward air speed on a water drop, is not to improve transitional lift but rather overall effectiveness. I agree with Jenks that the amount of forward speed carried in a “running” helicopter drop does not significantly enhance flight safety.

It is my opinion that in most cases, hover drops are a waste of water, valuable flight time and increase risk. A hover drop puts too much water in one spot……as you know, some of the water is effective while the rest does little but cascade down the hill and the hover drop can be a hazard to ground personnel. A water drop with forward speed increases the line length, frees up the drop area for aircraft following and helps to eliminate the increased risk created by aircraft orbit time as other helicopters fly around as someone attempts to talk the first drop in.

I agree that in areas of heavy fuel, in remote areas where a water source is not available, “Heli-Mopping” can deliver needed (but expensive) water. In the majority of cases though, a firefighter on the ground directing a hovering aircraft for a “precision drop” increases the risk to themselves; increases aircraft cost due to maneuvering time, slows the delivery of the water and reduces overall effectiveness.

Just my two cents,

Firefly

Regarding the last round of Cal-Fire hiring, it was mentioned that MNF was the next hardest hit, even though we lost 3 people, possibly 4. It doesn't mention that on one district we are down to two captains for 4 engines, and only 1 qualified FEO. The problem, well one at least is that our hiring system is so bad that we will most likely not be able to fill any overhead opening for at least 6 months from what I've experienced. This is no way to run a professional "fire" organization. Any private business run this way would have been forced to have closed its doors long ago.

sign me "Rattled in R-5"

Rail Runner outruns wildfire (passenger train into Albuquerque NM) video
www.krqe.com/video/expanded.asp?ID=6328

Hot Wheels

FWFSA may hear about people on the list for CalFire who have not yet heard or been hired. Ab.

Wildland Firefighter Foundation Donate NOW! Don't put it off. WFF is our safety net. Ab.

Brian,

Great Job!!! You and your support team ROCK!!!

Kudo's to you, your Team and the Klamath Hotshots!!!

Tony Duprey
Retired LP Hotshot

I don’t know that I helped very much; hopefully we started a meaningful dialogue, complete with facts and real emotion. I would be interested to hear what the investigator has to say, so I will look for your post concerning your experience. I hope you still remember the South Fork fondly.

One of my intentions was to expose the hearsay, speculation, and conjecture that is rampant in forums and is inadmissible in courts because it lacks substance. Say what you like about what may have happened; there is no conclusive proof as of yet that the uprooted snag was actually struck by the helicopter. Not coincidentally, the report references the initial-debris-point not the “initial-strike-point”. The NTSB factual report makes no real connection between the crash and snag other than scraps of paper and magnetic headings. Which are hardly proof that a fiberglass and composite machine impacted a dry and hardened snag. While the cubies contained paint chips and corresponding slashes consistent with impacting the tail rotor paddles. The conclusion that the program was unsafe and negligent based on interviews that revealed a perfectionist pilot that enjoyed what he did and flew within the limitations of the aircraft is disingenuous to the dialogue that most of you claim to revere.

As for the height/velocity curve and helicopter missions, the delusion that helicopters can complete a mission without spending considerable time in that curve is naïve. As an example, recently pilots have been asked to refrain from hover drops and instead make drops while using some translational lift. In order to make more than a degree or two of difference in the curve, the pilot would have to make a drop, assuming a 100’ foot longline, at a speed that relegates the drop useless because of dispersion. In turn the pilot is asked to return and repeat the process. As is commonly known helicopters are designed to operate within the height/velocity curve, if a mission can be accomplished outside of the curve; you need an airplane not a helicopter. Don’t patronize helicopter pilots by asking them to fly a few knots faster while doing bucket work just so we can feel pro-active. If you really want to help, ensure they receive benefits commensurate with the risks they take.

Obviously I am too close to the situation to think objectively, but in the final analysis, is any flight really necessary when pilots or crewmembers perish? The risk assessment looks pretty foolish at a funeral; indeed most of our checklists preclude any action at all. As long as we are sentient people, motivated by goals and objectives, deadlines and expectations we will undoubtedly lose family members, friends, and co-workers in this dangerous profession we have chosen.

jenks

Thanks for the great and successful effort. Readers, go to the Foundation website (top) and donate in Brian's name and/or sign up for the 52 Club, if you haven't already done that. Ab.

This conference is co-sponsored by the: International Association of Wildland Fire, Interior West Fire Council, The Colorado State Forest Service, Canadian Forest Service, Alberta Forest Service, Lesson Learned Center, and Sustainable Forest Management Centre of Excellence in Canada.

PT

Well, yesterday's run was another tough one, still painful but with some great help we made it to happy camp to a great welcome from the district folks. I was overwhelmed by the number of people out there and it was great to know that there was that much support for the Foundation. Heather's mom was also out there for a portion of the day and joined us for a sweet tasting beer and pizza.

Day 5, finally real home turf. Made the longest leg today with little problems with the knee and a lot of support. Kudos to the entire Oak Knoll station for both engines and the Shots for coming out and helping from Seiad Valley all the way to Oak Knoll. It is amazing how much better you feel when you see people you know along the way. Did take a lunch break at the Seiad station to say hi and met a great lady who 's brother-in-law was killed in the 9-11 attacks. Her husband was there for over a year helping to recover bodies and ended up with the illness that is causing cancer from all the dust. She was really grateful for what we are doing and gave us a picture and a patch from the engine he was on. Amazing people all along this trip. Tomorrow is the last day (yeah), shorter, more familiar, and more support so it should be a "fun" day. Thanks again to everyone who has made this event possible.

Peace
Brian Janes
Klamath Hotshots

Anyone have more info than below?

Brian will start and end at the Klamath National Forest supervisors office in Yreka, California, and proceed in the following manner:

April 1: 40 miles Yreka to Callahan (start at 8 a.m.)
April 2: 31 miles Callahan to Cecilville
April 3: 35 miles Cecilville to Somes Bar
April 4: 38 miles Somes Bar to Happy Camp
April 5: 46 miles Happy Camp to Klamath River
April 6: 30 miles Klamath River to Yreka

I understand your reluctance to assign blame...
Nonetheless, how do you explain the uprooted tree that was initially contacted? Someone should have spoke up and said " hey, this ain't right!" or "No! old man Scary says we shouldn't be doing this!" "Sleigh rides", joy rides, etc. should be an immediate "Watch-Out" and not tolerated, regardless of how proficient the pilot is. This was not a mission that was so important to put those 4 people in a high risk situation with no regard for the common safety precautions that we should all take prior to boarding any aircraft. I think that the NTSB investigation is pretty straight to the point and leaves little to the imagination.

In regards to your statement; "Proficient pilots are asked to fly down ridge lines and trace terrain daily in suppression and pre-suppression duties." is no excuse and is bordering on ludicrous. A risk assessment analysis needs to be done prior to any flight that that is considered "high risk", i.e. any flight that is planned less than 500 AGL. Was it an acceptable risk for the mission? I don't think so. To use the excuse that pilots are asked to fly certain profiles for certain missions is using a huge loop to justify the result of a catastrophic outcome and should not be tolerated in the aircraft or any other world.
I am sorry for the loss of life and I hope the survivors can find some resolve in the NTSB investigation.
My family keeps the families of the survivors in their prayers.

Capt. Evil

RD

I have a couple of things that have been on my mind lately.

I believe the new (2000) nwcg guidelines say that national courses can now be passed at a 70% scoring rate. I believe 590 is probably still 80%, I also believe that certain courses may need to have a higher success rate than 70% for the candidate to be successful on the job.

Cadres need to be able to demand more from students than nwcg does, only not less.

Do you want someone who does 'C' work to analyze your fire behavior?

Secondly, Dick Mangan mentioned a while ago about the lessons learned from fatal and near fatal fires, anyway he mentioned the Buchanan burn and I was wondering if that report is posted somewhere or does he know where a person could read about it?

AnotherDave

Victoria S from San Diego

Open baskets are light, strong, and ideally suited for heavy loads like saws, secure IA packs, and Bambi Buckets. However their shortcomings are evident when loads like garbage, empty MRE boxes, and cubitainer bladders are secured by bungees. I have witnessed several pilots shake their head and complain the baskets were dangerous, claiming that foreign object debris kills. The baskets look good on paper for the vendor, the government, and the district; less weight, more space, and greater allowable at the same cost. It is clear from the findings that several cubitainer bladders, stored in the baskets, impacted the tail rotor, subsequently severing one paddle. An imbalance and catastrophic chain reaction resulted leaving the pilot with limited control over a severely damaged helicopter.

Even though 355EV was falling apart around him, the pilot was able to put the aircraft in the only open space available, the only spot that would give anyone a chance. Having seen the crash site in the steep, timbered, and unforgiving East Fork drainage; I am confident that the aircraft came to rest on the road because of the shear skill and desire of the pilot to protect his passengers and friends. Though he was not considered a firefighter and will receive no death benefits from the government because he was a contractor. Really sad that pilots who perish while on duty at an average rate of 5 a year are not compensated. Their families should receive the same support and benefits of line fire fighters if they are asked to take the same risks, and indeed more, as the rest of the fire community.

jenks

-MJ

While Congress has given the USDI the authority to fund the RFA, they also gave them the discretion to NOT fund it out the $$ available to them for it and all the other items on the list. Picking and choosing priorities.

As for the Point Fire in 1995 where 2 members of the Kuna Fire Department died, seems like the final lawsuit results found the BLM about 50% liable for asking for resources that they knew were not qualified, and the Kuna Fire Department about 45% liable for sending them. How about local responsibility and accountability?

In my opinion, if a community has wildland fire protection responsibilities (like Kuna, Idaho and hundreds of other similar communities) then they should tax their own local folks for the costs of training and equipping their firefighters, instead of expecting the rest of the USA taxpayers to cover the costs.

The National Parks under USDI need fire protection $$, and the ranchers that graze BLM Lands in Oregon, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming want their summer range protected; how about the native villages in Alaska that the Alaska Fire Service protects, and the BIA fire forces in many of the western States that protect tribal lands? Don't forget the USF&WS Wildlife Refuges we all love that need fire protection too!

My State, many other western US states (and maybe your State too??) are running huge budget surpluses - why don't they pay the RFA costs?

Will there be shortfalls and escaped fires if RFA is dropped? He*l, yes! Welcome to life - - - a series of tradeoffs!

Aberdeen

Greetings all, well day 3 is down but not without some blood, sweat, and tears. Yesterdays long down hill took its toll on my IT- Band in my right knee and was quite hampering today. Spent a lot of time walking the 35 mile leg rather than running due to the pain. Also dealing with some thigh muscle strains but still moving forward as ever. The folks at Petersburg were great and so were the accommodations. Much Appreciated. Also want to thank all the kids from Forks of Salmon school for meeting us at the bridge and running with us. It was a nice bright spot on a tuff day. Made it to Oak Bottom around 4pm to a great welcome of an old captain of mine. Again, wonderful accommodations were provided which means the world after a tough day. Looking forward to tomorrow and ending in Happy Camp at the home district office after 40 miles. If anything like today, might arrive a bit later than sooner, 5-6 pm but we will make it one way or another. Again, much thanks to my great support crew for a goods day's work.

Enjoyed your post but however I don’t have 3 decades to wait. We need a
change now.

JE

The NTSB recently released the factual report for the 355EV accident. Here's the link:

www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/GenPDF.asp?id=SEA06GA158&rpt=fa

The term "sleigh ride" has a whole new meaning for me. This story will become part of our firefighting lore.

My sympathies to the friends and families of our compatriots who perished in the crash of 355EV.

Misery Whip

This email is being sent to you to inform you of what I found out about
the question "Would the Insurance Company's pay supervisor and managers the
Insurance Liability coverage if they had been charged with a crime?".

I spoke directly to the insurance companies that provide Liability
Insurance coverage to supervisors and managers of the US Forest Service.
Kim Savoy of the Wright and Company and Susan Shamzer from the USDA/ESRA
Insurance, c/o Mass Benefits Consultants both stated that their companies
provided a built in coverage of $100 thousand for liability insurance for
supervisors and managers even if they had been charged with a crime. They
were both very clear to say that once the employee had been found guilty of
the crime that the insurance coverage would stop.

I believe the rumor got started as a result of several workshops where
some different law firms were saying that in the future, Insurance
companies were not going to provide insurance coverage to Govt.
supervisors/managers when that person has been charged with a crime.
However, for now the employees would be covered until they had been found
guilty of a crime.

Rich Martinez
WO- Human Resources

"For necessary expenses for fire preparedness, suppression
operations, fire science and research, emergency rehabilitation,
hazardous fuels reduction, and rural fire assistance by the Department
of the Interior, $766,564,000, to remain available until expended...."

It was DOI that chose to eliminate the "and rural fire assistance" from their list of priorities.

The ironic part is that Secretary of Interior Dirk Kempthorne was a Senator from Idaho in 1995 when two poorly trained and ill-equipped volunteer firefighters were killed on the Point Fire.

Kempthorne was also very active in the Western Governors Association wildfire initiatives. Just last December, the WGA updated the 10-Year Implementation Plan for the National Fire Plan. They re-affirmed the need to establish and maintain the firefighter assistance programs.

vfd cap'n

Here's some good info from folks who are doing it right.

JG

Fire protection in Rancho Santa Fe Fire District as an example

Shelter in Place During Wildfires (8 page pdf file)

Article: Shelter-in-place program balances beauty, safety
www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/20050130-9999-2m30rsfire.html
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

January 30, 2005

RANCHO SANTA FE - Fire inspectors checked the eaves, drain pipes, fencing and all the shrubbery surrounding the newly built home. Everything passed muster but a single prodocarpus.

The plant was not only too close to the window, it wasn't even where it was supposed to be, according to the landscape plan on file with the Rancho Santa Fe Fire Protection District.

And it hadn't been there a few days earlier when he walked through the still-unoccupied property, Fire Inspector John Jerome told Fire Chief Erwin L. Willis.

"Sometimes things get a little modified," he said. "And sometimes someone goes to Home Depot after the inspection."

The prodocarpus would have to go because the errant piece of greenery could speed the transfer of heat into the house if there were a blaze outside.

For Rancho Santa Fe fire officials, the devil is in the details, and they take what they call "a modern approach to living safely in a woodland-urban interface community."

All new construction must have fire-resistive building materials, boxed eaves, fire sprinklers, a Class-A noncombustible roof, dual-pane or tempered-glass windows, and chimneys with approved spark arrestors.

The aim is to minimize the loss of life and property when wildfires burn, as they inevitably do in Southern California. Many communities have the same or similar guidelines, but the Rancho Santa Fire Protection District has taken them to a new level. (San Diego County, 2007 enacted)

Under a program called shelter-in-place, residents of five newer communities within the 42-square-mile Rancho Santa Fe Fire Protection District would stay put, in their own homes, rather than try to flee along narrow, winding rural roads when fire threatens.

"Most deaths during wildfires occur when people trying to flee are trapped in their cars," said Willis, who launched the shelter-in-place program here in 1997.

Shelter-in-place applies to only five of the more than two-dozen homeowners associations within the district - The Bridges, 4S Ranch, Crosby Estates, Cielo and Santa Fe Valley. Everyone else would evacuate if a wildfire came through, including those who live in the Rancho Santa Fe covenant area.

Several other Southern California residential developments, in Rancho Cucamonga, Highland and Fontana, have also been built to shelter-in-place standards, but the five in the local district are the only ones in San Diego County, said Rolland Crawford, Loma Linda fire marshal. He co-chairs the southern division of California Fire Chiefs Association urban-wildland interface committee. (In San Bernardino County and adjacent to the San Bernardino National Forest, as proposed by 'Earney 1997 et al', the Forest Service was actively involved on planning design and comments that were eventually used for success in planning adjacent to the wildland areas. These communities were affected during the 2003 fires with no losses of any homes nor any loss of lives due to community and development design standards that were commented upon, and acted upon, by city and county building commissioners as well as federal land managers.

Fire-resistive construction, however, is only part of the equation. All homes within the district must also have well-maintained fire-resistive landscaping.

"Most of the recent wildfires in the district occurred in the eastern portion in the Lake Hodges area, much of it still in native brush. But the district as a whole has the potential for a big fire," said Mike Scott, the fire district's urban forester.

A forester is someone who manages a forest, but an urban forester also deals with people, said Scott, who has been with the district for five years.

He is one of the few foresters working for a local fire department in California, Crawford said. Glendale and Hayward have them, and so does Los Angeles County, he said.

Scott's concern is "fuel management . . . how we look at a community and make it more defensible in terms of fire-resistant landscaping," he said, and he has both an advisory and an enforcement role.

The Rancho Santa Fe Fire Protection District begins just east of Interstate 5 near the coast almost to Interstate 15 inland. It includes the exclusive Rancho Santa Fe Covenant with its large estates, citrus groves and eucalyptus trees, and newer communities with expensive tract homes and smaller lots.

About 18,000 people live in the district's 6,000 homes, about a third of them in the covenant. And they have markedly different degrees of vulnerability if fire breaks out.

The district escaped the October 2003 wildfires that scorched large areas of San Diego County. Had the flames come, they could have burned through the district in 30 minutes, but 98 percent of the shelter-in-place homes would have survived, Willis said.

"Past studies show that 70 percent of homes with flammable wood roofs burn in fires like we had," the chief said. "These studies also show that 38 percent of homes that do not have a 30-foot (brush) clearance are lost."

The fire district enforces a "brush management area" extending 100 feet from any combustible structure. The 50 feet closest to the structure is limited to fire-resistant ornamental vegetation that is irrigated; the next 50 feet must be either an extension of the irrigated zone or a zone with thinned native brush and tree species.

"This is often misunderstood as grading or completely clearing brush from around the home," Scott said. "We don't use the word 'clear.' We're talking about selective thinning, reducing the fuel loading of the brush."

With "fire-resistive" landscaping and the thinning of native vegetation, most fires will stop at the irrigated zone, or at least transfer their heat to structures with less intensity, he said.

San Diego County's standard is a so-called "defensible landscape" of fire-resistant plants and the clearing of all dry brush and grasses and leaf litter extending at least 50 feet from a structure, along with the pruning and spacing of trees, said Sarah Vaughn of the Department of Land Use and Planning. The cleared area extends to 200 feet on hillsides.

These buffer zones also provide firefighters with a safe area where they can do their jobs, Scott said. If it gets too hot, they may be forced to retreat, and the home could be lost, he said.

"Most fire districts call what we're doing weed abatement, but there's more to it than that," he said. "We try to work closely with the homeowner to minimize the danger. What makes this difficult is the homeowner is looking at aesthetics, and the Fire Department is looking at safety. We try to find a balance between the two."

Fair Use Disclaimer

Hello, all:

I'm here in Redding after a days flying and enjoying
the birds eye view of this beautiful country of ours.

I spoke with Brian after he finished his second day.
He's in Petersburg, and has one tired set of legs
after a fairly grueling uphill run-rather unforgiving
terrain. He is, however, in GREAT spirits, and plans
to run again tomorrow.

My plan is to meet up with him at Oak Bottom when he
finishes his run for tomorrow.

Lets all keep him in our thoughts and prayers, and
remember why he's making this colossal effort...the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation. The folks at the
Foundation have been making an effort, selflessly and
quietly for years now, and it's time they got their
due. Come on out and support Brian with your good
wishes and cheers, and support the Foundation in any
way you can.

Heather's Mom

Hi Everybody,

Day 2 is in the bag. Much tougher than day 1 especially the hill out of Callahan. I want to thank all those who told me the hill was shorter than it was, so we were able to make it. I want to thank Darren and Nancy who came out with us again on the second day. We couldn't have made it without them. Tomorrow is a little bit longer, but a flatter run to Somes Bar. Looking forward to some recovery.

Thanks to everybody so far that has helped out.

--Brian Janes

Related to your post about RFA. As an AFMO and long time "DOI guy" I can tell you that the primary blame for the loss of 2007 RFA funding lies with congress and the continuing resolution that we are working under (for the entire year!). I have seen no evidence of DOI "killing it off" as you suggest. In fact many of our DOI fire managers have been trying to preserve the program. Unfortunately congress was too busy fiddling around with elections and other monkey business, rather than ensuring that a complete and timely budget was delivered for FY07. We just completed a local proposal for FY08 funding, so hopefully our congress can see the light and ensure that the program continues.

SM

SM, my comment about Interior was made tongue in cheek. Ab.

Alan Simmons of Firestorm Videos had us update his classified ad to include mention of his newest video releases of Firestorm 2006 - Volumes 1 & 2. These videos feature the Day, Esperanza, Shekell Fire, plus five others from the 2006 season.

Several new employment ads are on the Jobs Page. Helitack supervisors and crewmembers are needed by the State of Wyoming and several companies are seeking qualified engine boss/crewmembers in Idaho, Oregon, and Montana.

OA

"DEPUTY CHIEF FOR BUSINESS OPERATIONS HANK KASHDAN
travels to California on Monday evening to participate in the Esperanza
Accident Review Board."

Aberdeen

Good Morning All ~

After calling the national leads of all the Interior Departments that we
regularly deal with in RFA (BLM/NPS/BIA), it appears that RFA will die a
silent death, for this year anyway. Though there will be no "official"
announcement, those three departments are saying their operating budgets
have a zero balance in RFA for 2007, and they are not expecting it to
change. After conferring with Bill Wallis (BLM Colorado) and Rich Homann,
we have agreed to consider this the final decision regarding RFA funding for
2007.

Though we don't have the award yet, the news is better for VFA. The U.S.
Forest Service received its budget last week, and VFA is funded at the
previous year's level. We hope to have information from them in the the
next 2-3 weeks that will allow us to move ahead.

More when I have it.

Don't we wish those DOI guys would pull their heads out of their dark Interiors? What's the world coming to? Ab.

Did you happen to notice how they are limiting our 2nd shift rate this year? They get us to bid lower and lower every year so that we can be competitive and then they tell us we can only charge so much for our 2nd shift. I ran the numbers and talked with some of our other fellow tenders (as well as engine owners),: it aint going to pay us to run a second shift!" If they keep driving our prices down we wont be able to hire quality help and maintain our equipment! Something to think about.....

another r6 tender

That OMB bean counter guy who hates the FS (remember his "low hanging fruit"
comment), well he's working to have FS fire go to DHS.

Wonder where this all will end up.

<initial, initial>

(Wouldn't mind if he lost his own low hanging fruit, if he has any.)

Everyone, please remember that those who show up in the midst of chaos can affect the future. "Out of chaos comes creativity." Ab.

The R5 BOD is meeting this week.

They've been asked to bring any info showing any losses of personnel to CALFIRE,
including their forest positions, whether they're on teams and their red card quals.
They're going to assess the current situation and then track the impact of any losses
on preparedness.

I'm glad the possible impacts of retention are on the radar screen. Now we just need
some solutions.

From:
Noname

Australia's "Prepare, Defend, and Stay" Program has resulted in great success, saving property and lives. I had first heard of their "community" based education and "risk sharing" program a couple of years ago in Missoula MT for IAWF's Safety Summit. Why doesn't this work for all of us? You train your communities on Sat & Sun get to know them, find out where they live, asses their physical abilities (to help or hinder), and teach them valuable skills for pre-fire fuels management, and fire suppression after the fire front has passed. We have all seen it so many times in our past where we spend time and firefighting resources "Kicking Them Out", only to find they've ignored our warnings on Defensible Space. Then we use more suppression resources for "Bailing Them Out" by moving wood piles and managing "their" fuels problem. I believe the average home owner would spend alot more time in wildfire preparedness if they also directly shared in the responsibility of defending their homes and property during live fire operations.

Our own IRPG suggests that we should prepare structures for protection, removing wood stacked against the structure and "Clean roof of combustible items?"

"Americans in the I-Zone" Take responsibility and ownership for your property, the Aussies have.

1' IN THE BLACK

The Engine and Water Tender Contract is out with the USFS in Region 6. I have my RT130, IS700 done and waiting to be inspected for 2007 once more. Real dry spring, hardly any rain and we have had a few fires already. Looking forward to another safe season out on the fire line. Remember LCES so we can all do it again in 2008! Tenders & Engines required to be NFPA Compliant with complete full baffle system for 2008 (time to cut open those tanks) and maybe a 3 year contract this year?

R6 Tender

Thanks, JIMBO, I added them. (Still have a bit of other catching up to do on the list.) Thanks ALL for sending in the info. Ab.

I found Craig Herret for you in my neck'o'the'woods. He's been retired from
CDF for maybe 7 or 8 years. He left a message on my message machine. I'll
send you his contact info.

Mellie

Readers, the system used in Australia works really well there. We need more of that self reliance here. Ab.

In the contract world, a "Red Card" issued by an employer or contract company is their assurance that the employee is certified and on their list of employees on file with the respective Contracting Officer.

What a contract suppression company cannot do is withhold certificates of training. I suggest he collect up his certs and a new employer can issue their red card. The certs are what a new employer needs.

If the company is indeed a member of the NWSA (www.nwsa.us) you can look them up on their membership list.

So to make it short: Red cards belong to the company, and certificates of training belong to the employee. Red cards stay with the company as it is company property as it says "Company XX certifies John Doe"

Hope this helps.

Eric

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Huntington Beach FD – Medic Engine 45
Firefighter Injury
March 11, 2007
“241” Incident
Orange County Fire Authority #CA-ORC-016557
It is intended as a safety and training tool, an aid to preventing future occurrences, and
to inform interested parties. Because it is published on a short time frame, the
information contained herein is subject to revision as further investigation is conducted
and additional information is developed.

SUMMARY
On March 11, 2007 at approximately 08:00 a vegetation fire started in
the city of Anaheim in Orange County, CA. Orange County Mixed Agency
Strike Team XOR1422A was dispatched to the fire and arrived at scene at
approximately 10:00. At approximately 14:20hrs, while engaged in a
significant structure protection operation, the Engineer from Huntington
Beach Fire Department ME-45 was struck in the face with the blade of an
axe. The engineer was immediately treated by members of his own crew
and transported to the trauma center for evaluation. He underwent
reconstructive and plastic surgery, and is expected to make a full recovery.

CONDITIONS
Weather:
Temperature: 90 degrees
Winds: north east 12 mph, gusts to 30+
Relative humidity: 7%
Visibility: varied 0-20 feet
General Topography:
Wildland/Urban Interface area with Medium Brush and Grass
Accident site topography:
N/A
Road Conditions:
N/A
Make Model of Equipment:
N/A

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
On March 11, 2007 Strike Team XOR1422A (Orange County Mixed
Agency Strike Team) was assigned to the “241” incident which started on
Highway 241 north of Windy Ridge in the City of Anaheim. ST1422A. The
strike team became engaged in structure protection operations in the
wildland/urban interface area at approximately 10:25 hours. The members
of the strike team engaged the fire in several locations, units became
engaged in structure protection at 6811 Avenida de Santiago. HTB-ME45
switched to Structural PPE and made an interior attack on the fire with
other units from XOR1422A, the fire was overhauled for approximately 45
minutes. Upon completion of that assignment the crew from HTB-ME45
switched back to wildland PPE.

Crews continued to utilize bump and run tactics until 1400hrs when it
was noted that there was smoke and fire coming from the chimney of the
structure at 1110 Tamarisk. At the direction of the Strike Team Leader
crews again switched back to structural PPE and engaged the structure fire
at that location. Per the Strike Team Leader, crews were engaged in fire
suppression and overhaul for approximately 30 to 45 minutes when the
Captain from Fullerton Engine 3 advised the Strike Team Leader his crews
need for rehab. During that time the Engineer was working on the outdoor
patio deck with the Captain from Anaheim E21. The Engineer from HTBME45
was attempting to locate and extinguish a fire located in the walls
and floor of the deck (ref: Photo 1 and 2) with an axe when he became tired
and handed the axe off to the Captain of ANA-E21. The Captain took 3 to
4 swings of the axe to attempt to remove 2 studs from the wall of the patio.
Upon taking 1 additional swing he broke through both studs and the axe
continued around striking the Engineer from HTB-ME45 in the right cheek.
(Ref: photo 3- the Captain was standing at the red arrow and the Engineer
was standing at the blue arrow.) The call of ‘”Firefighter Down” was
transmitted with an immediate request for an ambulance code 3 to their
location.

The crew from HTB-ME45 began the ALS care of the injured
engineer and maintained care throughout the transport to the trauma
center. The engineer sustained a deep laceration to his right cheek, a
fracture to his cheek bone and sinus, and possible nerve damage. He
underwent reconstructive and plastic surgery to repair the damage. The
prognosis is for a return to full duty without limitations.

INJURIES/DAMAGES
Injuries:
The engineer sustained a deep laceration to his right cheek, a fracture to
his cheek bone and sinus, and possible nerve damage to his face.

SAFETY ISSUES FOR REVIEW
• Maintain situational awareness at all times
• Maintain adequate crew clearance when operating hand tools, ensure
clearance in tight spaces
• Identify and minimize fatigue by utilizing proper work/rest intervals
o Fatigue is major contributing factor of fire line injuries
Picture #1