AB,

The governor did sign this Bill into law. Now let's hope all of us can get unified and support other pieces of legislation both state and federal which will be stepping stones to help correct the inadequacies and injustices being practiced upon the federal wild land firefighters. This was legislation made possible because your representatives worked long and hard to get this to the point where it was voted upon. Members of the California legislature were astounded to find out what is happening. Most are potential federal legislators in the future and may become a part of your support base in the Congress. Inch by inch, anything is a cinch. Patient participation by each of you is important too.

NormBC9

Thanks! Very interesting. Ab.

Gizmo

If you go to the "Links" link at the top of the page, then the "Job Related Links" section near the bottom of the page, then hit the National Association of Smokejumpers link (or this link), you can find out about all of the subjects listed above. A lot of cool stories of jumping from the early days from old timers that don't need to be politically correct about a time when there wasn't a lot of rules and regulation.

smkj79

Thanks, Young. I'll add them to the Fire Books page when I'm back in town.

Readers, if you order anything from Amazon and enter through one of our book links here or the portal on the books page, we receive a little tiny part of the proceeds. Multiple little tiny bits add up and help out. Thanks. Ab.

Tom Jones, old FS retiree

In answer to your question, the first smokejumpers parachuted to a fire on the
Nez Perce NF on July 12th, 1940. There were also some jumps made in Region
6 that summer out of Winthrop, Wa.

Sign me

Former Jumper

When did you get the team assignment? how old were you then?

Tahoe Terrie

The report you sent in on the black Triple Nickel WW II paratroopers that became smokejumpers -- defending the west coast from Japanese incendiary balloons -- was very interesting. For some reason like the black pilots finally did, I thought the black paratroopers had seen some assignment in Europe. Thanks for the clarification. I found this part illuminating and thought provoking:

"Once we graduated, we started combat training preparing troops to go overseas,” said Morris. But the black paratroopers never set sail for the war in Europe. Instead, they were sent to fight forest fires started by Japanese incendiary balloons on the West Coast—from California to Arizona.

"The Triple Nickels earned a new nickname, 'Smoke Jumpers', for their ability to leap into smoke-filled clearings. They racked up 36 fire fighting missions, making more than 1,000 individual jumps into burning forests. For this they earned another nickname, 'Black Panthers'."

Does anyone know if there were any smokejumpers before that time? I know that the big focus on smoke jumping as a way of firefighting grabbed everyone's attention around the time of the Mann Gulch tragedy in 1949, at least that's what my old western relatives have said.

The war was over in 1945. Women entered the work force during the war, then continued in greater numbers in the work force following the war, changing social patterns. Did black smokejumpers looking for incendiary devices and jumping on forest fires provide the opening after the war for the federal agencies formalizing this approach to fighting fire? Were there any white smoke jumpers, hmmmm maybe some Quakers or Mennonites - other conscientious objectors to war... ?

I have female friend who's now retired from teaching at HSU who was a crack pilot and flight instructor during WW II and one brilliant relative was one of the first 3 or 4 women to teach radar to men in the Navy. New roles, new opportunities. (No smokejumping women, though, until Deanne Schulman. [IMWTK])

Mellie

Emergency room treatment/surgery also had its origins in wartime... The Golden Hour... Ab.

I replied to one email regarding transport to Emmitsburg for the National
Fallen Firefighters Memorial, and came up with another question. I'm going
to be driving right by BWI (airport) on the way back home from a convention
in Ocean City, Md. on Friday. I was wondering if there are any other families
that were flying into BWI and need a ride to Frederick that day. I can haul
a total of 5 extra people including luggage in my truck. Do you know of
anyone else? I can't see anyone getting a taxi from BWI to Frederick if I'm
going to be driving right by both places. That's too expensive!! It's like
an hour and a half ride.

Onelick (Ab replaced name with moniker)

Ab,

I was reading all of the e-mails on "They Said" and it made me wonder,
who were the first Type 1 ICs (Fire Bosses)?

I believe that one of the first, if not the first, was Ralph (Rowdy) James.
He was the FCO on the Klamath NF and the first North Zone Coordinator.

Does anybody know who were the first ICs?

4200

In addition, good communication is key to safely resolving any incident.

This powerpoint asks an important question: If the communication fix required is a systemic (agency/interagency) fix, where does the process go next? Ab.

What is SAFENET? (432 K pdf file of a powerpoint)

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/72hr-canebreak-rollover.doc (65K doc file)

Has photos.

Firefighter LODD - Grass Fire - Electrocution

Another firefighter died after coming into contact with an electrical hazard. There is a technology out there that was developed by Storm King Mtn Technologies to prevent/reduce this type of injury or fatality. They took "Hot Stick" technology and put it into a lightweight wearable device that signals when firefighters are in the area of a live wire or electrical hazard.

I would be interested in finding more information regarding this device if someone could steer me in the right direction.

Thanks.

Leo Drapeau
Safety Program Coordinator
Forest Protection Division
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

America’s First All-Black Paratrooper Unit
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/triple-nickels.doc

Big Smooth

There is a great old article relating to the origin of the IR/IHC crews form "Fire
Management" Summer 1974 edition posted on myfirecommunity.net in the hotshot crew
neighborhood.

I tried to send it to you but it did not take, my rural eastern oregon dialup is too slow.

Retirement rules, even if ADs get a boned a bit. At least we don't have to deal with
AGLEARN anymore.

Be Safe and Keep the Faith.

Dan

Marty Alexander's '74 article: Interregional Fire Suppression Crews. He sent it in March, the corrected version... The map of their locations is very interesting, too. No AGLEARN, priceless. Ab.

This is a little off of the topic of Female IMT leaders, but during my first year in 1988, there was an FMO on the Fenn Ranger Station, Nez Perce National Forest named Penny Keck. She was a local character and a damm good FMO. All of the folks that worked for her had a lot of good stories and even had a list of "Pennies' Rules". Unfortunately, I don't have that list. I think she retired a few years ago.

Domaque

Ask around and see if you can scrounge them up... Ab.

All I will say is that, yes, I am 48 years old and that I was a qualified
Type I IC at the age of 41. Now let's find out how old Rocky, Jean, and Mark
are. Oh yeah and there's Chris Hoff. How old is he??? Maybe I am one of the
old ones!!!

Bill Molumby looks pretty young in the photo with Jonathan Winters. How old
is Bill???

Rowdy

First Black Smokejumpers - Triple Nickle

www.triplenickle.com

Tells the story about the 555th based at Pendleton Air Base and Chico, CA.

-=RADAR=-

HEH, had to come check out what's being said about your age, eh? We all know you're just and oldish f*rt, disguised in IC's clothing! Ab.

This is in answer to "who were the original H.S. crews in R-5"?

Not quit sure if they started IRC or IHC, that was way before my
time as a LP shot. Anyone know?

Have a great day!

Pullcord

Enjoyed your post and it reflects the frustration that many of us feel. But now let’s get a couple things really clear first…

There are no professional wildland firefighters that are employees of the federal government. Yup!!! That’s right!!! And you already know it and proved it. Even though we fight fire for a living and we have to have some serious qualifications to do our firefighting job we are still only "range and forestry technicians". And since we are not firefighters, OPM does not see fit to recognize the need for, or value in, fire science education (or even NWCG courses).

The powers that rule our world do not want to see us as firefighters because that challenges who THEY are. If we were classified as firefighters then some ‘ologist’ somewhere might have to admit that they are not qualified to supervise us or fire programs. And that would simply be too much for them to admit…it would shatter their own little power structure.

See, it makes more sense for me (a full-time fire program employee) to be supervised on Type 1 & 2 fires by someone who is a biologist or tree marker who goes out on 1 or 2 fires per year. It doesn’t matter that I go on 20 – 50 fires per year and supervise firefighters all year round. (oooopppppssssss…sorry…supervise range technicians).

OK, enough of my weird sense of humor. You are right…and it is so obvious…and makes common sense…to have a fire series with fire qualifications (and fire degree requirements)…and maybe a few environmental and ‘ology’ courses thrown in. But like I said, that would make us firefighters…and the feds are simply just not ready to think of us in that light. So we stay range and forestry technicians who work for folks far less fire qualified than ourselves. And we keep being frustrated…we keep having our budgets cut…we keep having fewer and fewer of us…we keep getting less and less training…and we keep getting injured and killed every year.

But don’t despair…we tend to soldier on and do the best we can with the crumbs they feed us. One day I dream we will have leaders that will stand up and create what we all know we need to see happen. Yeah, I know…it is only a dream…a dream based on common sense, reality, practicality, and cost savings. And dreams seldom come true when you are fighting egos, personal power structures, bureaucracy, and ignorance.

Let us, my brothers and sisters, take care of our own and keep each other safe.

BLMboy

OK. Ab.

There was a Coeur d'Alene IR crew up until about 1980 (I think). My understanding was that they were based first at Magee and then at the CDA airport in Hayden but my facts may be off a bit. As for the rest of the Panhandle, there were originally three IR crews, CDA, Kaniksu, and St.Joe.) Kaniksu ( Priest Lake) and CDA folded before I got on with the Joe in 1984. I remember there were a couple of older guys that told stories of working on the Kaniksu. The St.Joe lasted worked out of Clarkia (St.Maries RD) from 1967 to 1998 when the IPNF moved them to CDA. When the last of the overhead from that move left in 2001 they changed the name to the Idaho Panhandle IHC.

Speaking of the Panhandle IR and shot crews there will be a 40th anniversary function for the St.Joe IHC in late October (10/26) of this year and an additional get together for the folks from the CDA, Kaniksu, and Idaho Panhandle IHC the next night. I am at my home computer and don't have the flyer but will send it tomorrow.

As for the St. Joe having the best songs, I do remember the old guys telling stories of traveling with musical instruments and actually having a band at one time but that was over long before my time. Most of the songs I heard sung would be deemed politically incorrect in today's fire world and very likely get you fired for indecency.

Lastly, I think the Lolo is the oldest IR/shot crew in R-1.

FMO Joeboy

Hi Ab, a bit to add to your Hot Shot Crew project.

I was on the Texas Canyon Hot Shots for a brief 4 weeks in
May of 1975, before being offered a job with in Yosemite.
It was hard to pass up Yosemite vs. LA.

Thanks,

Mark

Tell them that their students will not be in the running for the IAWF Fire Scholarship that may be available. Ab.

HAW HAW Sure you've got the right R5 dispatcher? Ab.

Was there a Coeur d'Alene hotshot crew at one time?

Was John Russell, BLM and Dept. Interior Type 1 IC (before Interagency there were FS and Interior teams) the "rogue IC" who insisted the NPS give him a delegation of authority during Yellowstone '88? Or could it have been Dale Jarrell, another remarkable straight shooter, who insisted on that?

This inquiring mind wants to know...

You can add to the list: Univ. of Montana. They have a 4 yr, Forestry
Degree Program and enhances in "Fire " available, or at least they did when I
was there. 'Cause I got one from there, a few many, many years ago.

R5 Dispatcher

Sounds good. Ab will pass messages so Bill he doesn't have his email addy "harvested" by the spam bots.

Re Fast Rope: Thanks, the info line is rollin now from three time zones.
You guys rock at connections.

DN

That reminds me of my Firefighter 1 training when I was standing there with full
gear on, including SCBA, and being told you should always jump up onto a ladder
truck in case the ladder has come in contact with electric wires. Yeah right. I
don't know if that instruction ranked up there with "water hammers" but it always
gave me the willys when I climbed onto a truck.

Still Out There as an AD

Thanks for the info on stump-bumpers.

My next question is:
Anyone name the 16 original Hotshot crews? I thought it was 16, I could be wrong.
What are there now? 68 crews?

Thanks,

DP-35

Well, here's a good start on the list of 16: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk-ic.htm

This story is about an off duty Firefighter in Illinois with a blood alcohol level of .227 (nearly 3 times the legal limit) who was involved in an off duty crash that killed one and critically injured others a few weeks ago. While this is always a horrible and avoidable situation, this one is worthy of your time. That's because the woman killed was the mother of another Firefighter (not from the same area) and the one critically injured was her husband, that other Firefighters Dad.

Derek L. Winningham, 22, of Sherman (IL) was charged with two counts of aggravated driving under the influence (a charge formerly known as reckless homicide in Illinois) and if convicted, he could face 3 to 14 years in prison. He is charged in connection with this multi-vehicle crash that killed Teresa L. Borero, 43, of Springfield....a Firefighter's Mom. Three others were also hospitalized as a result. One was Borero's husband who was seriously injured. That's 1 seriously injured Dad of a Firefighter and 1 lost Mom of a Firefighter. Winningham's pickup rear-ended the Boreros' van, pushing it into a third vehicle... Winningham was going 81 mph when he hit them, according to a crash re-constructionist....the speed limit on that road was 55 mph.

Teresa L. Borero, 43, (a Firefighter's Mom) of Springfield was pronounced dead at the crash site. A toxicology screening found no drugs or alcohol in her body. Borero's husband, brother and nephew (a Firefighter's Dad and the relatives) were all seriously injured, although they since have been released from the hospital.

Winningham was on his way home when he crashed into them.. and wasn't hurt. The road is a bit dark, but the taillights on the van were working properly. None of that matters: the Firefighter who killed the Mom and seriously hurt the Dad and injured the other relatives of that other Firefighter - blew a .227-nearly 3 times the legal limit. He was drunk.

Each of us have been with other Firefighters who have had too much to drink. I don't know if anyone was with Winningham before this happened or not. But when we do see it, sometimes we intervene, sometimes we don't. That's amazingly sad because each of us has been on crashes where drunks killed someone and we are always "so thankful" that the victims under the sheets weren't anyone "we" knew or loved. But at social and other off duty times, we hang around "Brothers and Sisters"...and see that they are toasted... but yet sometimes, we "shy" away from stopping them from driving. The good news is that in recent years we are more apt to stop it than years ago. But no matter, we still see it and there are still times when we ignore it because of a dozen or so lame excuses on why "we don't wanna get in the middle of it."

Hanging around Firefighters who have been drinking is one thing.
Letting them drive is another.
Take the keys. Lock the car. Sit them down. Hide their car. Pop their tires. Hold them down. Whatever.
Do whatever it takes to not let anyone drive drunk-and especially not your "Brother or Sister" FF....the one who you would risk your life for...and all that other blah blah crap. Wanna save a life? Start with those who drive on the roads and who may encounter a Firefighter who has been drinking. Maybe even save the life of a drunk FF who you don't let drive. Will they get mad? Do you care?

Whatever it takes, just stop it from happening....keep them off the road if they have been drinking... you never know who they may run into. In this case, the Family of another "Brother" Firefighter. And now that Firefighter & his family buried his Mom because of another Firefighter's deadly actions. It's all in the family.

Mike Bournazian
Wyoming State Forestry Division
Rural Fire Trainer
Wyoming Fire Academy

Hear, here. In this case, the firefighter whose mom was killed and dad was injured is a member of this theysaid community from the San Bernardino NF. He and his supporters are having a hard time of it, not surprisingly. My thoughts and prayers are with them; they're also with the drunk driver who took one life and changed other lives forever, including his own.

Take away keys, take friends home yourself. Whatever it takes. Friends don't let friends drive drunk. The person who's killed may be your family. Ab.

Good on the FS Chief and Dialogos to include FWFSA/us in the dialog.
Thanks for sussing out the details of the legislative stuff, Casey and Lori. What would this community do without you? Ab.

IMWTK (Inquiring Minds Want to Know)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know who is the youngest IC (Type 1
and Type 2) to date? Rocky Oplinger, Jeanne Pincha-Tulley, Rowdy
Muir, Roy Johnson, Mark Ruggerio or Bill Molumby?

Is Jim Smith the first Black IC?

The first female IC was Linda Szczepanik. Took her 9 years from the
time she was qualified to get a team. Is that "normal"? Just curious on
that one too. I remember hearing sometime in the early 2000's that her
team was in R1 or R4 and had a hard time with local management
where they were fighting fire because she was female. I think Barb
Bonefeld was on that team too (DPIC?). Ray didn't hear about it until
later and he was pissed. Barb went on to become IC of a Fire Use
Management team, no less arduous than being an incident management
team IC for suppression in terms of keeping people safe, in my opinion.

My personal bias is toward optimism, toward seeing a greater vision and
working toward it to see if it's possible to make it real, in spite of obstacles.
I like to think of all of you in this community ideally; but I'm sure women
have had a hard time advancing in fire to the highest levels for many
reasons. I know a bit of Sue Husari's history, first in Forestry then in Bio
at HSU. Those were not easy days. She persisted and she's certainly made
a difference. No doubt this is true with other fire women groundbreakers.

I want to salute and say thank you to those of firefighters, both those
of the female gender -- and male firefighters who take gender out of the
equation when looking at KSAs -- who paved the way for women
having the opportunity to make their contribution to all levels of fire.

Ab, please forward any responses to me if you will, if it seems like they're
not for the community in general.

Mellie

Will do.

Another firefighter died after coming into contact with an electrical hazard. There is a technology out there that was developed by Storm King Mtn Technologies to prevent/reduce this type of injury or fatality. They took "Hot Stick" technology and put it into a lightweight wearable device that signals when firefighters are in the area of a live wire or electrical hazard.

Sedgwick County Firefighter Identified
www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?s=7126986

Lobotomy

Ab:

Our fire Lookout Jim Sheridan will retire after 36 years of government
service on the Sawtooth NF. Jim is 89 years young and is possibly the
oldest fire lookout to date.

We will be celebrating with Jim , coworkers , friends and family, Saturday
September 29 1100 to 1400 at the Lookout and 1400 at Pomerell Mtn.
Resort. Perhaps some of the folks heading north to Ketchum might stop
by. Jim will be missed by all of us.

here is the URL from our local paper
www.southidahopress.com/articles/2007/09/25/news/local/1firespotter.txt

Thanks
ID-STF-Division-1

Folks should stop by and say thanks. We added him to the infamous IMWTK page. Tell him he made history. Ab.

Sand is a big portion of the Sahara Race. Many a dune
crossing. I believe the only section that could be
considered "road" is the last few miles before the
Pyramids where we weave our way through Giza's
cobble-stone streets.

Thanks to all who have pledged. I know it's not as fun
as a big party in Ketchum, but it's for the same
cause. Maybe someone can lean on Bruce for a little
donation to the run.

If anyone is interested I've started a blog that I
should be able to update at the end of each leg of the
race. Here's a link.

www.4deserts.com/blogs/

Peace KCP

Ab notes:
I added a permanent link to ~Ken's Web Log~ above right.

Read more about his run:
http://www.wffoundation.org/news/KensRun.htm

See who's pledged. If they can, you can!
http://www.wffoundation.net/sahara/pledge_list.asp

Make a pledge or donation for his run.
www.wffoundation.net/sahara/2007-pledge_entry.asp

Ab, thanks for the line on Big Hill.

DN

I think it's great people write in so fast with the info needed. That had to have been a record, like 20 min. Ab.

If you're going, you should know the following:

• The CA Capitol grounds encompass multiple blocks - 10th to 15th and L to N streets.
• There are no street signs designating various memorials!
• Street parking is often an issue. many coin operated meters accept only quarters. Handicap parking is scarce because state workers park on the streets.
• Construction is partially blocking many downtown streets.
• The Tower Bridge (Capitol Ave) is closed to all traffic, including pedestrian.

Yesterday I navigated midtown & downtown Sacto & would have encountered big delays had I not known how to circumvent the mess. Plan ahead. Part of the event is getting there!

River

Attached is the

Informational Summary Report (Green Sheet) CA-CNF-002463 Dozer 3346 Burnover (1526 K pdf file)

referencing the entrapment and burnover of Dozer 3346 on the Pine Fire.

Please give wide distribution for the purposes of discussion and Tailgate Safety Session.

Dave Teter
Battalion Chief - Department Safety Officer
CAL FIRE

Good enough, that was a good post. Ab.

Well, I didn't give any advice and I know Original Ab (OA) didn't give any advice and we be the only two Abs, so you must mean someone other than Ab gave some advice... Hmmmmm... But happy for the opportunity to clear that up. Ab.

The QUEST team would like you to know that QUEST's TV story, Into the Inferno: The Science of Fire, is set to premiere on KQED next Tuesday, September 25th, as one of the segments in the episode. Thanks so much for
sharing your time and being part of this story!

The story will air Tuesday at 7:30 pm on KQED 9 & KQED HD on Comcast 709.

On Tuesday, the story will be posted on the QUEST website in its entirety - so you'll also be able to watch it there. I'll send around the link when it's live.

Here's a description of the episode - feel free to share it with your friends, colleagues, or email listservs/newsletters:

In dry years, fires in California cost billions of dollars and often result in lost lives. QUEST goes inside the fire season, looking at how the history of forest management could be feeding today's flames.

Watch
Into the Inferno: The Science of Fire
Tuesday, September 25th at 7:30pm
on KQED 9 & KQED HD on Comcast 709 or online at www.kqed.org/quest.

Let me know if you have any questions, and I'll be in touch soon.

Thanks,
Lauren
------------------------------------------
Lauren Sommer
QUEST
KQED Public Broadcasting
San Francisco, CA

The information is on the California Professional Firefighters website
cpf.org. They begin organizing everyone about 1030 with the procession at
1115 and the ceremony at 1130.

Scott Vail
Deputy Chief-Admin Fire and Rescue Branch
Governors Office of Emergency Services

Hi Scott, nice to see you're still around. Ab.

Just checking to see if anyone is going to Emmitsburg for the National
Fallen Firefighters Memorial. I live close by, and can help with any travel
arrangements, directions, and anything else that might be needed. Ab can
put you in touch with me if you need any help.

Onelick

Knarf, I haven't forgotten about your task book. I'm still trying to get
one for you.

Listen to a bit of what they sound like!

Steve Miller Band (Fly Like an Eagle)
www.stevemillerband.com/index1.html

Bruce Willis Blues Band
www.listal.com/video/1506036

Also heard Carole King should be there to play with the others.

LOCAL CELEBRITIES DONATE TALENTS FOR “KICK ASH BASH” IN KETCHUM

News article: www.sunvalleyonline.com

Mellie

Ab,

To those who organized and carried through with the on-site initial treatment and decision to transport the burned Cal Fire dozer operator on the CNF Pine fire, my congratulations! Your quick action and a great display of “take charge” leadership helped to prevent the further progressive burn injuries from occurring while someone else debated what to do.

Thanks from our professional community! There are those within this community who do recognize the lack of good comprehensive burn policies on the part of many of the agencies and your actions have really made a difference. We are all trying to make this work and, until we can see a positive reaction on the part of each agency, your actions speak louder than any printed word.

I can tell you that the Cal Fire written protocols and policy are not adequate and there are attempts being made to get this changed back to the old policy which mandated exactly what you just did for this firefighter who was burned. I don’t care how minor those of us who make decisions feel, get them to the professionals at the Burn Center to let them decide. We don’t call someone from another profession to attack and control wild fires do we? Think about it and again thanks for a very positive display of “Critical Decision Making.” We need more of your kind in the field working with us.

Normbc9

This has been a season of learning. I can't remember when we have had so many firefighters burned in different incidents. Perhaps some of the lessons learned from this season and last season are getting to the fireground. If so, this is certainly good news. Ab.

Can anyone put me in touch with Big Hill Helitak?
I am researching fast rope programs.

DN

DN, Sent you the contact info. That was mighty fast. Ab.

Still Out There as an AD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reply-To : dispatchstudyteam@mainet.com
Sent : Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:32 PM
To : <snip>
Subject : Interagency Dispatch Study Datacall Change Notice and Login Information

| | | Inbox

To: US Forest Service and Department of the Interior Dispatch and Related
Personnel

Re: Change in Datacall C Instructions on OT, Sunday, Holiday, and Shift
Differential Hours Reporting Request.

For US FS PERSONNEL
With regard to the DATACALL C for Center/Militia Employees request for data
on your CY 2006 Overtime Hours, Sunday Hours, Holiday Hours, and Hours
Worked in Night Differential Status:

*****Please refer to your CY 2006 Paycheck #24 rather than #25 for your
cumulative hours by category. We are looking for data from the roll-up
summary of CY 2006 hours.

I don't. Anyone? Ab.

Description

MARKET RESEARCH SYNOPSIS: The U.S. Forest Service seeks to obtain market research information from sources capable and interested in providing contract services for specified fire training categories and components. The Forest Service is conducting this market research to determine the capacity and past experience of the private sector to perform wildland fire training services. This market research is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as a commitment of any kind. Any information received may be used, in whole or in part, to develop the acquisition strategy for any resulting procurement(s). Responders will not be compensated for information provided, and are encouraged not to provide proprietary data or business-sensitive information, as any information received may be used by the Government and/or released to the public. Sources interested in participating in this market research effort should complete the web-based form at http://fs.mainet.com . Responses should be submitted on or before October 5, 2007.

Point of Contact
Robert Rinaldi, Assistant Director, Stategic Planning, Budget & Finance, Phone 202-205-1596, Fax 202-690-6006, Email rrinaldi@fs.fed.us

I was wondering where we are with fed firefighters, dispatchers, etc having
to go through some kind of A-76 procedure. This letter from the Forest
Service Council to OIG coming out of Alaska last year had very pertinent
points. Did it make any difference to OIG?

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/FSC_To_OIG_Final_061011.pdf

Mellie

PS. I sent in a card to the dozer operator. Nice idea from CoCal CalFire,
Ab, and the hotlist mods. He likely has more than just minor burns as Gizmo
pointed out. I am very glad he's in a burn center, receiving the most
knowledgeable and up to date treatment. In fact I heard today that he
gets skin grafts tomorrow.

PSS. Does Ken Perry have to run in the sand on the Sahara benefit run for
the WFF or is there some better running surface? Guess I need to go read
up!

PSSS. WM, your reply to Young and Not Dumb makes me want to build a
audio recording system to go with a video setup just because it seems so
easy and "cool". I just love this forum!

It would be quite satisfying to jam the inbox with best wishes... Ab.

In response to the question on the UCSD Burn Center contact information:

Regional Burn Center
UCSD Medical Center
200 West Arbor Drive
San Diego, CA
(619) 543-6502

ht

Can someone give us the addy and contact info?

SoCal CalFire

Hotlist 24 and 72 hr reports: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1933

MA:

Don't shoot the messenger...

I have some background in the finance world and the answer is-- yes, I believe they can change your pay rate. The AD pay plan has been highly scrutinized in the last couple of years with one of the results being the new rating systems from AD-1 to AD-A, etc. As you correctly note, that rates under the new system pay lower.

The other thing that happened about two years ago is that the ABQ (or other national level payment team depending on agency) was given the ability to overrule the pay rates that the local hiring official set. However, only if the they can show that the pay rate was incorrectly set by the local agency. The new plan has taken pretty much all discretionary capability from the local agency in the interpretation of the pay plan. They can't set a pay rate that is not supported by the AD pay plan. This means that if the hiring official did not adequately document why you qualified for the rate of pay (ie through red card quals or other means) than ABQ will evaluate your quals and determine the "correct" pay rate. The big red flag positions are the tech specialists because it was perceived that these positions were abused. They used to be the way that local agencies could hire someone they knew was a good, qualified employee and pay then a better rate to keep them and reward them. That ability has been taken away from the local agency. If you are hired as a THSP, you have to be able to document that you are qualified as that THSP.

I am not saying that I think it is right (morally anyway), but it is legal. I don't know the details on how you were hired, so I don't know for sure what the issue was, but it sounds to me like they overruled the local agency hiring official and they can do that.

I personally don't like this policy for multiple reasons. It breaks a contract that was made with an employee. If you knew you were going to get paid 1/2 of what you were promised, you may have chosen to not do the work at all. It takes away the ability of a local hiring official (including me) to have some flexibility to hire and retain qualified employees that they know they can depend on and we all know that there are people we trust more than others in the AD world.

I recommend taking a good look at the AD Pay Plan and then talking to the forest that hired you and seeing if there is anything they can do to document they pay rate you received. If you get ABQ to reverse it tho, it will be a minor miracle.

Its a brave new world...

signed,
db

- before you spend any bucks hiring a lawyer, consider the following strategy.

• First, make multiple copies of all the paperwork you have;
• then prepare a written letter that explains the problems, and send them to SPECIFIC, NAMED people;
• let them know that you know who the are, and you (and maybe some higher-ups) will be holding them accountable for what they say and do.
• Tell them you want an answer IN WRITING by a specific, reasonable date.
• When you get their answers, and if they aren't the answers you want, again write and appeal to the next level - Region, WO, etc;
• also consider involving the US Department of Labor and your local Congress-people.
• Last resort, find a sympatric media person and do a full-brain dump with the paperwork package.
• Also, check in with Casey at FWFSA and the ADFA folks for their ideas; that's one of the reasons that we pay membership dues to those groups.

It may be time-consuming, but it may be worth it to get the rest of your pay.

Aberdeen

• Who was the hiring official?
• Was that person giving (delegated) hiring authority (in writing)?
• Was it for their area, or for an outside fire assignment?
• Was it approved by the hiring incident?

I don't think all the above are necessary, but as an AD I have been hassled on incidents many times regarding hiring paperwork and documentation.

Most ADs do not even mess with these "Excepted Positions", and simply are hired at their highest AD rate in their area of expertise for any "miscellaneous" type assignments (for example, Dispatch Center Manager -- not in the AD list, go out as COORD or EDSP; or Fixed Wing Base Manager -- not in the AD list, go out as ATBM, ASGS, or RAMP).

Whenever you give the Personnel Department room to review your hiring papers, you are asking for trouble. I would imagine that an Excepted AD-K rate is an automatic audit.

I wonder how many "Excepted Positions" were hired (and approved) this season?

From the 2007 AD Pay Plan (www.nwcg.gov/teams/ibpwt/documents/personnel/fs_id_5109.34.pdf ):

7. Exception Positions. If none of the positions listed in the Incident Positions Matrix
(IPM) fit the scope of duties for a position needed and the scope of a current emergency
warrants, an exception position could be established at the AD-A, AD-B, AD-F, AD-I and AD-K
classification levels at the local unit by an appropriately delegated hiring official. A brief
description of duties must accompany the Single Resource Casual Hire form for audit purposes.
The classifications below should be used as guidelines when determining at what level a new
position in the AD pay plan may be established:

a. Exception Position 1 - Level AD-A. Positions within this level require no
specialized skills or training. The job requires the performance of simple routine,
repetitive work tasks under close supervision or requires following oral or written
specific step by step instructions.

b. Exception Position 2 - Level AD-B. Positions within this level require minimal
skills or training. Routine assignments are carried out independently. Oral or written
assignments are given with general information on quality, quantity and timeframe
expectations.

c. Exception Position 3 - Level AD-F. Positions within this level require skills
acquired through specific job training or experience. Work is performed
independently. The incumbent of the position is expected to interpret instructions,
plans work, lead, or supervise casuals at the next lower level.

d. Exception Position 4 - Level AD-I. Positions within this level require skills
acquired through specific job training, technical education or experience, and require
the ability to apply or use specialized, complicated techniques or equipment. The
incumbent of the position is expected to instruct others in the requirements of the job,
plan work, or supervise casuals at the next lower level. This level requires
independent judgment and decision making. The carryout of assignments and most
problem resolution are expected to be completed independently by the incumbent of
the position.

e. Exception Position 5 - Level AD-K. Positions within this level require expert
knowledge and very high skill level in applying a wide range of concepts, principles
and practices associated with professional or administrative work. Most often
positions at this level are commensurate with knowledge gained from successful
completion of Incident Command System (ICS) 400 level and above courses,
qualifications at the Type 1 or 2 level, or “ologist” type positions (such as an
archeologist) that requires a higher level of education or certification. Incumbents of
these positions may be required to supervise other professionals or a group of
technical specialists (TSHP).

BarkR

Hi all,

I work on a helitack crew, and am trying to find out how I can get audio from the ICS (intercom) on my video from inside the ship. I know there must be some kind of adapter that I can use hook to into the intercom and maybe the external mic port on my video camera. The few people I know that have done something like this had folks in their avionics shop (I think Columbia was the company) make a unit from scratch, so I know it's been done.

So... Anybody know how to do this? I've seen a few CDF/CALFIRE helitack videos with intercom audio on them, so is there anybody reading this or TheySaid who could help?

Thanks.

Justin

Todd

Look Up "Merit Systems Protection Board" key word "Callagan". This is a 10 year old "reverse discrimination" case that the USFS settled out of court, after their unsuccessful appeal. USFS probably settled so that it wouldn't get appealed to US District Court, where a decision would have set a "reverse discrimination" precedent.

www.mspb.gov/netsearch/viewdocs.aspx?docnumber=247343&version=247615&application=ACROBAT

The case dealt with a minority hire of an unqualified Forest Engineer because the selected met the "Asian Pacific Islander" slot. The winner was not even a Civil Engineer, was not licensed, did not meet the time in grade requirements, and frankly was not very bright.

Callagan who was over qualified, and could have lateralled into the position due to previous GS12 status with the Corps of Engineers, dared to note that the Southwestern Region had not hired or promoted a white male in the previous 250 hirings, (every job series). Callagan was a GS11 810 series with 17 years, license and excellent performance record and a completely clean record. They fired him for submitting an EEO complaint, then phonied up the records to show that he resigned. MSPB required the USFS to show that he had resigned, which they could not, then awarded back pay, interest, legal fees. They further found that the firing was the USFS response to the formal filing of the formal Discrimination Complaint (was the same day).

Bottom line, it is possible for white males to pursue and win "reverse discrimination" cases against the USFS.

BC

Lobotomy

Mitigator

Excellent. Ab.

The first thing I'm curious of is what position did
you perform in? There are very, very few positions
that are not covered under the AD Payplan so I'm not
sure why you needed to go as a THSP. I've been
coordinating the AD program on my Forest for 10 years.
And I have only had 2 positions not covered in the AD
plan. Both were associated with the tanker base and
both were added to the plan the next year. For the
document to be legal the individual signing it had to
have the authority to do so. If the position you were
going as is not in the payplan the individual on the
unit, Forest or GACC does not have the authority to
set a rate for you. It needs to be requested through
proper channels before you go out. If not you are at
the mercy of the system. What occurs then is whomever
hires you needs to fill out a description of duties to
turn in with your time. You are at the mercy of the
system but you chose to do that when you accepted that
assignment outside of the AD payplan. The person who
signed the casual hire form needs some training.
Saying I didn't know by you or the hiring official
doesn't cut it. The AD plan that explains the
processes and procedures for how and when things are
done is only 10 pages.

Goodluck,
Sign me, Waiting for the winter snow

Lawyer up.

Tahoe Terrie

I wish I could put all of you in my shoes for one day to appreciate how much the foundation means to the families of the injured and fallen. They are truly are guardian angels here on Earth, but the foundation can only grow with your help.
So, open up the wallets and let the moths fly free!!! Make your pledge today and let this amazing man know that what he is doing is appreciated by all.

Lori Greeno

Link for the run and how to pledge is now at the top right of the page. Ken's Sahara Run Benefit Ab.

I was on the cascade complex and I saw firefighters wearing cascade complex
sweatshirts that said " hold the line" and me and my fellow crew members
thought those looked really cool. I was wondering if you might know where I
could find the vendor so we could order some of those shirts.

Thanks,

Mike

www.sj-r.com/News/stories/15647.asp

A firefighter from the San Bernardino National Forest is dealing with the loss of his mother and the serious injuries of his father. An allegedly intoxicated volunteer firefighter did something that will change his life for years to come, and the lives of others forever two weeks ago in passing.

Pieces of the story that aren't in the press for most to see... The actions of a firefighter killed others in the firefighter community. Firefighters don't let firefighters drive drunk....

Annual leave donations have been set up for the firefighter so he can care for his family. Other firefighters are in support. Those interested in donating annual leave can contact myself or others, or your servicing personnel office.

Kenneth Kempter
San Bernardino NF

On another note: Secretary Johanns has resigned as Secretary of Agriculture
and the president has named Deputy Secretary Chuck Conner as Acting
Secretary.

Mellie

"...don't confuse the federal fiscal year with the state fiscal year..... Two totally different critters. The legislation explains when, where, and how the legislation is to be applied. The legislation is good for everyone involved, especially the families who aren't covered by federal programs"

Lobotomy makes a very important point anyone who is following enacted legislation must remember: although some agencies' funding sources don't follow the norm, CA fiscal year is 7/1 thru 6.30. Federal fiscal year is 10/1 thru 9/30.
Following any proposed legislation can make folk nuts because as a bill is further amended changes aren't immediately posted on the website.

Is the Senate hold-up of AB348 due to Social Security Admin dependent's eligibility guidelines ?

River

To share information about the death of Brad Cella last Sat, (9/15), he died of a massive stroke while skydiving. The coroner related to Brad's family and friends that while Brad's death is officially listed as an accident, in his professional opinion, the stroke would have been fatal had Brad been sitting at his desk. It is important to Brad, his family and his friends that we all understand that this death was not due to a 'skydiving accident' but rather occurred while Brad was doing something that he loved with a passion.

There will be a Cella-bration of Brad's life this Sat (9/22) in Boise Idaho and the following Sat (9/27) in Anchorage Alaska. Details regarding the Cella-bration as well as other information including a message board to post tributes, condolences and stories is available thru www.nps.gov/fire/fire/cella-bration.cfm. We know Brad was greatly loved throughout the wildland firefighting community and he will be missed. We ask you to take a few minutes to look at the webpage and post a memory or story of your experiences with Brad.

Carol

"Used to be LE" has this to say about the center:

These people are dead serious in their mission. My boyfriend did a tour and took a class through them and they are the big time. Bigger and better than anything they can show on TV.

Some firefighters read this bulletin and didn’t understand the problem. The problem is that if they get to first responders before they get to the general public, who is going to be there to help the public? Take us out and you’ve got no one left to perform rescues and save lives. Bottom line: Be aware of your surroundings and always report suspicious activities to the Law.

I really like the nonexistent physical descriptions of said subjects below. PC strikes again.

Treehugger

Video photos taken at fire stations spark concerns
By Greg Welter

During the last week of July, fire officials in the Bay Area city of Campbell reported that two men had been seen videotaping routine activities at a fire station.

The men were reportedly in their 20s or early 30s, and one was using a sophisticated news media-style camera.

<snip> ...second, similar incident was reported at a fire station in Yuba City. The man who took the photos was described as being between 30 and 40 years of age...

<snip> ...Fresno Fire Department officials spotted two men in a vehicle

<snip> ...personnel from the Sacramento Metro Fire Department noticed two men taking photos of a fire station. A third man... They ranged in age from late teens to about 60,

Click the link to read the article... Ab.

I emailed Jeanne P-T your question regarding IFPM and here's her reply.

Mellie

It depends on what a person means with the phrase "forestry degree"

A two year "forestry degree" -- it is caught up in the debate on whether there
is a specific mix of upper division classes and "lower division" college
classes.

A 4 year degree -- is what qualifies a person for a GS-460 series
(professional forester) and the GS-401 series, although a professional
series, has less requirements on what it takes to qualify.

Everything in our agency is on hold for folks because they are attempting
to figure out the impacts of each negotiation point before they push a
particular alternative.

Greetings all

Tim Sexton has asked that I look at IA fire suppression successes that can
be attributed to fuels treatment projects. It could be that 3 acre fire
that was picked-up at 3 acres because of a treatment, or it might be that
fire that got picked up at 100 acres rather than 10,000 acres because of a
treatment which enhanced our suppression capabilities. What I am trying to
avoid is revisiting the Antelope, Moonlight, or Angora kind of fires.

Tim is looking to develop some protocols that will help quantify how we
track these small scale successes and how we evaluate IA suppression
success as it relates to our fuels treatments.

If you think you have a fire that might be deemed a 'success" please let me
know. I would like to have the field work done prior to winter weather
setting in.

Thanks for your help

David Kerr
Fire Management Specialist
Adaptive Management Services Enterprise Team
(check the FS lookup for email addy)

Please notify all R5 crews of upcoming mobile fire equip committee meeting.
Any complaints, ideas or suggestions concerning our crew vehicles & supt.
trucks must be in to reps before October 5th. Meeting will start Oct. 8th
please e-mail questions or concerns.........................

Thanks,
Frank Esposito
Mill Creek Hotshots / Captain

A heart attack is considered LODD by all agencies. However, ask anybody whose firefighter has died in this manner if they have received any PSOB.

99.9% of those asked, they will say no. There are cases from 2001 that have still not been settled. This is exactly where AB384 would come into play for federal families. They may have children who will be in college before their PSOB is ever decided, and in the meantime, no educational benefits from the PSOB will be given. They only come in to play after a favorable ruling in the case. So, what is the family to do? Come on, the logic is only too clear here. I think we need to educate those who are making our laws (sort of scary, huh?)

Lori

IFPM (Interagency Fire Program Management Qualifications) Standards are here: www.ifpm.nifc.gov/ifpmstandard.htm

When a firefighter dies in the line of duty, if all criteria are met, the family is entitled to receive the PSOB (Public Safety Officer Benefit). Part of this benefit is higher education for children and spouses. Right now it stands at $860 a month for a full-time student and is reduced by any other kind of government program that may be in place. This applies not only to federal employees, but state and local ones also.

California recognizes illnesses as line of duty deaths, while the federal government does not. I can see how the laws, as they stand right now, help out the families of these employees. What I can't understand is why they don't include it in AB384 and leave it up to the families to decide whether or not to make use of this benefit. At some point in time, the feds may decide to follow CA (and other states) in recognizing illnesses related to line of duty as LODD at which point the surviving family would not qualify for the PSOB but then would also have no educational benefits to fall back on. The whole political circus would have to start all over again.

So, why NOT include it now? Just because it is there doesn't mean you have to use it.
The state and local employees families have this option. Why not the feds?

Lori

Senate Floor Amendments of 9/4/07 delete provisions which
prohibited the University of California and California
State University from imposing or collecting mandatory
systemwide fees or tuition from surviving spouses and
children of permanent career civilian federal firefighters
who were residents of California and performing services in
California who were killed in the line of duty. This
change is because it is understood that these provisions
could reduce or eliminate existing federal benefits for the
family members of firefighters killed in the line of duty.

This bill provides benefits that will supplement, not supplant, any federal
benefits.

noname

Well, I answered my own question - I was right. All educational benefits were cut from AB 384. I can't believe it got to the very end, only to have that happen. I have sent a letter of comment on the bill to Mr. Portantino's office and would like to encourage everybody else to send one too. I feel that our children deserve a shot at higher education just as much as a child of a fallen state, county and city firefighter, don't you?

Here is where you can write your comments - easy to do.....

www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/acsframeset2text.htm

I think this takes you to the main page asking for the bill number, but after you put it in, the comment link is at the top of the next page.

Lori

Ab,

I am hoping someone out there can help answer a question for me. I went to the CA Assembly page and brought up AB384. As I read it, the entire educational benefits package that was included in the original draft is no longer there. Is anyone else seeing this as I am? Here is the link that you can follow the entire bill through. If this is so, once again, the feds are getting the short end of the stick. I emailed Portantino's office days ago, but haven't heard one word. I am hoping to get in touch with someone there tomorrow via phone and find out what happened.

Here is the link that will take you directly to the page of AB384. Thanks for any answers you can give me.

www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/acsframeset2text.htm

Lori

Evidently the 401 conversion process is ON HOLD. Got this twice. It's making its way around the FS web. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"On hold" means the ability to convert people into the GS-401 series is on hold, nationally, at the moment. This is due to the OPM regulation of 2/15/05 that changed the definitions of what constitutes "educational credits" and how many "credits" it takes to convert to this series. This is the issue, discussed with the RLT/BOD in June, where only college transcripted credits are considered as "counting" for educational credit; NWCG equivalents and TFM without the University of Colorado college credits do not count.

The WO, USDA, DOI and OPM are still working on a solution.

Does it mean that the USFS will use something other than the GS-401 series?

No; it means we are determining how to use it so that we have OPM's support.

Does it mean that we using something other than the open and continuous rosters for the Deputies and Chiefs?

No. They are the primary mechanism used for all FAM jobs in our region. For those rosters where the selected candidate is able to convert to a GS-401, they must wait to convert (but not necessarily wait to promote) until WO-Human Resources know what the new rules are in determining educational credits.

What are the educational requirements?

Good question and the heart of the issue.

On 2/15/05 OPM put out a regulation intended to ensure all college educational credits were from credible sources. This regulation established that the only viable college educational credits are those listed and approved as passing on a college/university transcript. This effectively shut off any NWCG courses put on by an agency; the USDA Graduate School and a host of other training typically used as college equivalent educational credits towards a professional series.

The list of NWCG equivalents developed by the National Interagency IFPM group to count towards educational credits was effectively null and void with this regulation. This is the first thing that USDA/DOI/OPM are negotiating.

The actual number of education semester credits is 24.
What is not clear is what is the mix of 24: all upper division? all lower division? a mix of upper and lower division? This is the second thing that USDA/DOI/OPM are negotiating.

WO-FAM is currently determining what the impacts of this regulation are if strictly applied; if applied with some negotiations; if applied........somehow.

What if you were in a position as a GS-401 prior to the OPM regulation of 2/15/05?

Folks who were in a GS-401 position prior to February remain in a GS-401 series. Everyone else who was in a GS-401 position after that date will be subject to the new mix/interpretation of educational credits when the dust settles. Anyone who is in a GS-460 or GS-401 position and applies to a new GS-401 position will be subject to the OPM regulation "game rules" once negotiations are completed.

What does all this do for position management?

IFPM/FS FPM have effectively limited a Forest's choice in what can/cannot be used for position management. In our region, where the IFPM/FS FPM "Unit" is the region (not individual forests due to the amount of settlement agreement negotiations that have occurred in the last couple of decades), we shifted everything to the standard position descriptions, open and continuous rosters, etc. We do not have GS-9's in the GS-401/460 series; GS-11 Division Chiefs are in FS FPM as GS-462's in our region...... These decisions were made mostly due to the settlement agreement negotiation where we will not limited our candidate pools and because of the sheer volume of positions in our region (we are just about 1/2 the national USFS total of permanent fire positions).

Hope this helps.

Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Chief, Fire and Aviation Mgmt.
Incident Commander, Team 3
Tahoe National Forest

mcleod

I've been reading about the Pay issues in R5 and while I'm sympathetic to the indifferences in CA, I just wanted to remind folks that it goes beyond regional boundaries and outside of fire. In recent years, the cost of living has soared in the "resort towns" where many of us live and work. I have employees who spend their winters doing various other private industry jobs, then take a pay cut to come back to the Agency purely for the enjoyment of what they do. Each year as this is happening, I see our annual salary adjustment come through. Since it is always a percentage, our GS-04/05/06's who get the work done on the ground tend to see a few dimes more per hour while the GS-double digits can see a couple of bucks. Each year the indifference grows as our working class comes closer to poverty levels and our decision makers settle for more comfort. It makes it tough to listen to the preaching about showing a lunch break on the fireline. When the price of gas/bread/milk/rent goes up, it hits everyone equally. This indifference should be changed. Unfortunately, we would need a policy maker that believes in fairness more than boosting their own lifestyle.

Feeling it in R4...

I have recently completed a assignment in an Interagency Dispatch center in
California, which has raised an interesting question: Does your work on
behalf of Forest service firefighters include those in secondary positions?

I have gotten hands on experience on how hard these people work to support
those in the field. they are on shift before the fire fighters are on and
can't go until the last one gets off shift. while I was in the dispatch
center I got to see the pay discrepancy between Cal fire and the forest
service. Seeing it first hand in the dispatch world makes me wonder about
other secondary jobs like preventions, and such.

Thank you for your time,

Curious

Everything I've heard about Jim indicates he has a compassionate heart. Our thoughts and prayers are with both families.

Heard that Scott Anderson got to Seattle for treatment and that the WFF was also involved in smoothing the way. Good work. It's all about helping each other. Ab.

What a character he was!!! Always had a smile and full of wisdom.
I didn't know Brad long but had a chance to work with him extensively this past year. His death is a blow to many, certainly none more than his fiancé and sister.
His dedication to fire management and fire leadership will not be forgotten.
I will always appreciate the time I got to spend with him...especially over a good beer or glass of wine.
Take care Brad.

Allen (Al) Garr

Pray the Gov signs it into law and the law will go into effect immediately IF it becomes law, it will most likely be next fiscal year and not retroactive.

Injured CA State FFs are rarely in need of immediate financial assistance.... a check will arrive on pay day & bosses pass the boot. CDF injured are covered via State Compensation Insurance Fund (SCIF) worker's compensation insurance.. Local government personnel (mutual aid) or contractors may encounter a delay, but basic salary is usually next check. The CA-Fed agencies injury/death benefit is a nightmare of red tape. The playing field is not even, and it won't be anytime soon.

I find odd to read about a "spike" camp injury while moving a garbage dumpster ..... was it only yesterday when my kids said a spike camp meant Hotshots in paper sleeping bags on the a fireline and hoping their next sling load contained recognizable food?

Of course, I also remember when the FS pulled anyone driving a pick-up to assist a wildland fire in forest lands.. Good grief, I'm old! Last week I droved down ENF's Iron Mountain Rd (Mormon Immigrant Trail). The recent cleanup is greatly appreciated!!! the 50's Pilliken fire rehab looked to be a healthy stand of trees too - kiddos, ENF. hope when winter rains arrive someone can safely bonfire those towering piles.

River

Some of the answers being posted on the Hotlist forum: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1979

With these positions out there I would make more as a firefighter than a captain in the Forest Service. Naw there is not a retention problem.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/ca-fire-salaries07.jpg

-SJ

sbrrymom

09/17/2007

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/24-72cascade-1.doc

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
File Code: 6730
Date: September 14, 2007
Route To:

Subject: Preliminary Briefing (Combined 24 & 72 Hour Reports)
Cascade Complex Wildland Fire
Boise National Forest

To: Chief of the Forest Service

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE:

Critical Information:
On the afternoon of August 12th 2007, two individuals funded through a wildland fire resource order were moving roll-on garbage dumpsters from a spike camp. The couple was involved in a motor vehicle accident within the closure area of the Cascade Wildland Fire Complex. The accident disabled their vehicle and apparently resulted in non-life threatening injuries to both occupants. Following the accident the individuals left their vehicle and began hiking towards the Cascade Complex Incident Command Post. During or shortly before this time, the road they were on was closed due to fire activity. While hiking along the closed road, the individuals were overrun by the wildland fire. The individuals took shelter from the fire in or near a culvert. It does not appear that either individual was injured by the fire. Several hours later the couple was discovered along the same road by other contractors who then transported them out of the fire area. The couple was then given first aid by firefighters and Emergency Medical Technicians and then transported to the Cascade Wildland Fire Complex incident command post. They were subsequently transported to local hospitals, one by air ambulance and the other by ground ambulance. Both were treated and released within 24 to 48 hours.

For reasons unknown at this time, the facts surrounding this entrapment were not reported to the Washington Office until September 13, 2007.

On August 13th the Cascade Complex Incident Command Team implemented a Stay-In-Place plan as the Cascade wildland fire burned around their Incident Command Post. The Stay-In-Place plan, the decision to implement the plan and the decision to remain in place for several days following the event resulted in several unintended consequences including the fact that numerous individuals were subjected to elevated levels smoke and carbon monoxide resulting in acute respiratory symptoms and illness.

On September 14th, 2007 an Accident Prevention Analysis (APA) Team was formed based upon a verbal delegation of authority from your office to review both of these incidents. A law enforcement investigation is underway reviewing the motor vehicle accident.

/s/ Steve Holdsambeck
for Randy Draeger
Occupational Safety and Health Program Manager.

cc: Larry Sutton
Ralph Dorn

Wish I were closer to Idaho. It would be fun to attend. Ab.

Happy talk won't put out fires
www.pasadenastarnews.com/opinions/ci_6897244

(snip)

Wenstrom claims that in April 2006, National Forest officials were told not to request budgetary augmentation funds, known as "severity dollars," that they had sought and received in the past. As a result, they would have to cut the number of fire engines staffed in the forest, she said.

She was told to draft talking points to address the public's concerns about having fewer firefighters and engines in the nation's most urbanized forest, filled with millions of dead trees and drought-dried brush.

When she described the reduced funding as "a problem," she said, her supervisor told her the talking points should say that "everything is fine out there in the forest, and there is no need for additional funds."

She refused and was quickly removed from her public-relations job, Wenstrom claims.

(snip) "Oh, they're in great shape," Mathes said in May 2006. "I think they're in a situation where there's one of two less fire engines in a certain location, but they'll be moving resources around. We'll be able to bring in more engines when there's a need."

But Gene Zimmerman, San Bernardino National Forest's former supervisor, dismissed that rosy viewpoint at the time. "They can say what they want about moving resources, but they won't be here in initial attack," he said. "We need the resources here before the fires start. ... This says we didn't learn very much in the fall of `03," when the deadly Old Fire and Grand Prix Fire raged across local slopes.

"Local Forest Service officials are really under the gun to talk the party line," Zimmerman said then.

Click the link to read the whole story...

One of our BLM co-workers -- he is a NWCG Training Specialist here at NIFC, and before that job a long time McCall Smokejumper -- has been diagnosed with AML Leukemia and has been in the hospital for over 9 weeks. He is transferring to the Fred Hutch Center in Seattle tomorrow for a bone marrow transplant. I have been the liaison to the family assisting them with many things. We have set up a tax deductible fund through the National Transplant Assistance Fund for those that may want to pitch in and help Scott Anderson, his wife and family offset the huge medical costs involved with this process. I've attached a letter that we have been sending out. Is this something that can be put on the "They Said"?

Thanks......

Marie Bates

Hi Marie, good to hear from you. I'm posting the letter below and I've added the request to the Classifieds page under Announcements. Our best wishes to Scott. Seems easy to make the donation to the fund for him and it's tax deductible. Ab.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A “Friends - Helping - Friends” Request – September 2007

Dear Friends of Scott, Sandie & Eva Anderson,

As some of you know, Scott Anderson has been diagnosed with Acute Myeloid Leukemia (AML Blood Cancer). Scott has been hospitalized in Boise for over nine weeks and has undergone four rounds of chemotherapy during that time period. He will receive a bone marrow transplant at the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance beginning tomorrow. Thankfully, Scott's personal health insurance should cover most of the $350,000.00 + in medical expenses. Unfortunately, it does not cover many of their out of state expenses and medical items, like: transportation, living expenses near the medical center, donor search fees, and other non-covered hospital/medical costs.

It is expected that these non-covered medical and other miscellaneous expenses will easily exceed $10,000. Many of you have asked, "What can I do to help?”. This is your opportunity to assist the Andersons during this phase of Scott’s treatment and those additional financial burdens certain to come.

In order to help them, a tax deductible account has been established in Scott’s name with the National Transplant Assistance Fund. The NTAF is a nonprofit organization that has been helping the transplant community for over 20 years. All donations will go directly into an account designated for medical related expenses and are tax deductible. Our initial goal is to raise $9,000 to $10,000 to assist the Anderson family for the uncovered medical costs and expenses during the estimated three month treatment period in Seattle.

Unlike many other charitable gifts to foundations, this is an opportunity to make a tax deductible donation which will go directly to friends who are in need. Rather than most fundraising events we often encounter, we are using an e-mail fundraising process. What a fantastic way for us to connect with the hundreds of people who care about Scott! Your generous contribution in any amount will go a long way in helping the Andersons through this trying time. It would also be greatly appreciated if you could forward this request to a family member, co-worker, or friend who might be financially supportive.

To make a credit card donation, please call NTAF at 800-642-8399 or www.transplantfund.org.
If you have any further questions or need assistance with this process contact Rich Caballero at (208) 871-1557 or Marie Bates at (208) 387-5506.

Respectfully,
Co-workers and friends of Scott and the Anderson and Waters families.

I was wondering what you folks think is the best antenna for the BK radios.
I have used Larson, Centurion, quarter wave etc... and was wondering about
what works for others. Any COMTs want to throw a little scientific
explanation into the mix?

Thanks
\
James

Normbc9

Abs

Brad Cella the long time Alaska Regional FMO for the NPS and the very recently
appointed NPS NIFC Chief of Planning and Budget was killed in a sky diving
incident in Star ID this afternoon. At this time this has not been released to the
media but the family knows. WFF also knows. No particulars on what happened
or services at this time.

Mike Warren

Condolences. Ab.

A map actually. Projected fire movement based on Wildland Fire Decision Support System (WFDSS) from the Rocky Mt Research Station that is overlaid on the google earth and that overlaid by the hotspots from Modis. It shows how far the fire has already moved into the projected areas.

Thanks larso. Ab.

Jim Wilkins gave a good synopsis. I liked this line he replied with when the reporter
wanted to know how long it would take. Poetic...

"We fight the fire
one shovelful at a time,
one dozer blade at a time,
one bucket-drop at a time
and after a time
we've circled the fire..."

Mellie

Senator Cantwell/Doc Hastings/Chief Kimbell/Secretary Kempthorne: will it ever
get to the point where I can again offer my expertise to the wildland fire community
without putting my family's financial future at risk from legal actions, and without
working for less than those who fill risk-free jobs on fires and make double the AD
rate of a Safety Officer, Ops Chief or Air Attack?

My first fire season, after 30+ years on the line, of refusing ALL assignments; what
a sh*tty feeling! Maybe 2008 will be better??

Mollysboy

While is nice to finally know the true name of the StumpF*****, I think in this
case too much truth can be a bad thing ;-) It is always good on some unsuspecting
gullible nubie to have them think the bug will lay their eggs under their skin and the
only way to get them out is with a knife!!! I have known experienced firefighters
who were still not 100% about it and get the willies around them. This Rural-Legend
has had many many victims and I am sure it will live on for may years to come
despite the info disclosed here.

Thanks for the info

CW

For cards:
Jim Klump
PO Box 5
Forbestown Ca. 95941

Donations:
www.wffoundation.org/

Thanks,
Rusty Witwer

Thanks Rusty, and thanks also for your help with all this. Jim was DFMO on the Tahoe NF. Ab.

"The details brought about in this report are meant to foster a learning environment for other firefighters across the nation in order to prevent further injuries and or death. The focus in this report is not to put blame on any parties involved; but rather to use this event to aid in earlier recognition of developing situations; allowing fire fighters to make decisions that will prevent near misses, accidents and injuries."

Thanks, Kibby. I learned something. If you're registered, you should add that to the Hotlist Bee Sting thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1938

I appreciate people not prematurely posting this on the hotlist. It is a sad story. The woman is a member of our fire community as are her wonderful dad and her brother. Our hearts go out to the family, including the grown children of her former partner, the shooter. Tragedy all around. Vicki Minor / the WFF has been providing support for all, for which we are grateful. Ab.

I think most of you were on Zaca when the original announcement went out.
With the impending rain (Intellicast.com) coming to the North State next
week, there should be time to fill out an application. We are looking at
three advanced academies and five basics. This is a great opportunity to
cultivate or enhance leadership and instructional skills and positively influence
young firefighters. (and help train them for Cal-fire and municipal jobs!) You
can save your home unit some money and get paid for pt's and field
exercises at the same time.

Please call if interested.

Scott Whitmire-Assistant Coordinator, Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program
916-640-1061 or 916-717-6615

staff-recruitment.doc (105 K doc file)
instructor-recruitment.doc (149 K doc file)

I did a quick internet check to attempt to answer the question from SJ. What I suspected is apparently true. That is, non-allergic people can die from multiple bee stings. Of course, some people don't know they are allergic and can die from one sting. About 40 people a year in this country die from stings.

Here's the question from SJ: "If someone has not been allergic to a single bee sting, can multiple stings by a swarm of yellow jackets or hornets or paper wasps still potentially kill them?"

My first thought was, "of course". Think fire ants. One won't kill most people, but individuals have died in accidents. I've heard of tractor roll over victims landing in a fire ant mound and dying of multiple stings. Inject enough poison and the reaction is stronger, especially if the face and airways are involved.

The following website . . .
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/bee_and_wasp_stings/article_em.htm
. . . provides the following comments supporting my theory.

Although multiple stings increase the potential danger in allergic cases, a serious or even fatal allergic reaction can (and does) occur from a single sting in a person with no known prior allergic reaction

Other complications: Insect stings in nonallergic people, though perhaps painful, usually do not cause serious problems. However, multiple stings may cause serious complications (such as muscle breakdown or kidney failure) and, rarely, even death in nonallergic people.

Especially at increased risk are small children, elderly people, and people who are already weak. These serious problems may occur within the first few hours of being stung or may be delayed for days after being stung.

Even a single sting in the mouth or throat can cause swelling and obstruction of the airway. Children are at increased risk for these types of breathing problems from a sting.

A bacterial skin infection at the sting site may also develop.

Sedgehead

You can be stung once, then potentially have a fatal reaction to even a single additional sting. Anyone who is stung should be closely watched for a possible reaction. Make sure your first aid kits follow your agency's protocol for stocking sting treatments. preferably with something like an EpiPen. Check expiration dates.

Still Out there as an AD

I started a hotlist thread on bee stings, which include vespids (hornets, wasps and yellow jackets). stumpf**kers are solitary wasps, less likely to sting or cause a stinging frenzy than the "social" wasps. www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1938

Feel free to question or answer there. I'm hoping some of our EMTs and Medics know what the current status of treatment is for wildland firefighters. I also heard that following the rash of bee stinging incidents on the fireline, someone was going to be addressing this. Ab.

DN

Lobotomy

Thanks to the two people who sent this in. Ab.

I can hear the radio traffic now.

"Division Oscar, we had a fire shelter deployment"

all work stops on the incident, tankers diverted, rescue teams roll in.

"oh, it was just bees,
no the those that deployed are not allergic, no signs of anaphylaxis...
Oh, I take that back. Here's one on the ground not breathing, blue, welts everywhere
7 or 8 or more on his face alone.
yeah, he's the one that was heee-haawing the suggestion to get in the fire shelter in
the face of a swarm.
Yep, fire shelter still on his hip."

It behooves us to consider all options.

Strider

PS Nice job, Good Samaritan!

There are two SAFENETs that are associated with the Cascade Complex Incident Command post "burn-by".

They can be found on the SAFENET site and are on the Hotlist thread on the Cascade Cplx ICP "burn-by".

Ab.

Ab and All,

Lightning: If you haven't seen this, you might find this lightening safety link useful.

www.struckbylightning.org/

Bee, wasp, hornet and yellow jacket stings:
Be sure to read the bee safety info that's supposed to be coming out. I want to see
that. Lots of multiple yellow jacket sting incidents this year. Yellow jackets in a
swarm can be deadly for some people.

Question: If someone has not been allergic to a single bee sting, can multiple stings
by a swarm of yellow jackets or hornets or paper wasps still potentially kill them?

-SJ

NIFC Predictive Services: Wildland Fire Outlook-September through December 2007 (328 K pdf file)

Stay informed, Be safe,

Marvin A. Howard
Assistant Chief, Region II (CA)
OES Fire & Rescue Branch
Governor's Office of Emergency Services

"If running away is impossible due to injury, fire conditions, or topography, then
DEPLOY A FIRE SHELTER to drastically reduce the number of stings."

It goes on from there talking about bee killing tactics while under your fire shelter.

I can hear the radio traffic now.
"Division Charlie, we had a fire shelter deployment"
all work stops on the incident, tankers diverted, rescue teams roll in.
"oh, it was just bees, no the patient is not allergic, no signs of anaphalaxis"

I'll try to scan the whole page and send it in when I get access to a scanner.

Type 1 Wrench

www.nifc.gov/nicc/sitreprt.pdf

WA- SES- Ellensburg Pass fire is 453 acres/ 100% contained as of this morning.

News reports from Channel 35 last night www.kndu.com/global/story.asp?s=7066992 reported (on air only) that 8 fire fighters had been stung by bees and 2 had to be medi-vaced to local hospitals for multiple stings. No report on their condition.

Laurie

Dear AB,

I am a person that works in the fire organization and I have been reading your posts about AD pay. I don't like either side of the argument.

One side is whining about not getting paid enough. The other side is just jealous that they are not retired and doing the work they love and collecting an extra check.

My first statement is, if you aren't getting paid enough for the work you are doing, STOP! I work with a person that is fully qualified in her position, and I believe she deserves more pay for what she does, but she doesn't whine about not getting paid enough because she signed a contract with the full knowledge of how much she is getting paid. By the way, she is not retired. This is what she does for an income as an AD employee. Fire going ADs also get all of their costs of living covered, transportation to and from the incident, all you can eat food, a place to sleep. To me that is another form of income nobody is talking about. Stop whining, we need them and they know what they are getting into.

I also know that without ADs we would not have a fire organization worth a darned. The agency employing the ADs leading our IMTs need to wake up. Maybe, before these ADs really do retire for good, we should make it a condition of hire that we make the Type 1 and 2 resources that are in such demand have a mandatory tag-along trainee go with them on all incidents. This would at least cover some of the training requirements necessary to continue with a quality fire organization.

Signed Muley Man

Hi,

I am a girlfriend of a wildland firefighter. I am looking for some sort of support group if you may to help me get through this hectic fire season. I have been dealing with this for 4 years and for some that may seem like nothing. I know there are wives that have been dealing with it for over 10 or more!!! I go to the hotlist boards to keep up on the fires and info that way, but I was looking for some family members to talk to. Maybe your SO is on the same fire mine is. I just was curious if this forum was even still active. Hope someone is reading this!!

ES

Wildland Firefighter Heat Stress Brochure
wlff-heat-stress-brochure .doc (200 K word file)

Use of Haines Index in California
use-of-haines-index-in-ca.doc (179 K word file)

I waited for more info on this but never saw anything else come out
on this "close call". Thought I would share this with the Wildland fire
world. This was a Initial Attack grass fire.

Firehog

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:40 PM
To: ALL FORESTRY
Subject: Serious incident in SWO

Over the weekend, SWO experienced a serious incident that resulted in an
injured employee. The following is very preliminary, but we wanted to get
the word out, so if people hear about it, they know what happened. We have
begun a district investigation and are arranging for some outside
assistance for a more thorough investigation.

During an initial attack, an engine crew was deploying to do a pump and
roll tactic. The attack line was manned by the Laborer 1 while the forest
officer drove. When the forest officer drove through the flames to fight
from the black, the crew became separated from the hose line and was left
defenseless as the flaming front approached him. He received some first
and second degree burns on exposed skin and possibly third degree burns on
his nose.

We anticipate more information to come out later in which we can all learn
from, but for now, this is an important "Heads Up" for everyone to pay
attention to.

Emmitsburg, MD. - The U.S. Fire Administration (USFA), in cooperation with the Incident Management System Division/National Incident Management System (NIMS) Integration Center and the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG), announces the availability of position task books for All-Hazard Incident Management Team (IMT) members and others who may serve in those roles. Similar in concept and design to existing position task books used by NWCG, the task books are based on Incident Command System position competencies identified by NWCG and USFA for the NIMS Integration Center.

The position task books are intended for use by the authority having jurisdiction to certify that the person to whom the task book belongs has demonstrated the required competencies and behaviors required by the Incident Management System Division/NIMS Integration Center. Each position task book lists the competencies and behaviors for the specific position in a format that allows a trainee to be evaluated against those competencies and behaviors.

Successful performance of all tasks, as observed and recorded by an evaluator, results in a recommendation that the trainee be certified in that position. Evaluation and confirmation of the individual's performance of all the demonstrated competencies can occur on incidents, in classroom simulation, and in other work situations. These task books are utilized by established All-Hazard IMTs trained through the USFA's All Hazards IMT Technical Assistance Program.

At this time, eight Command and General Staff task books are available for download from the USFA Web site at
www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/subjects/incident/imt/imt-training.shtm

* All-Hazard Incident Commander
* All-Hazard Operations Section Chief
* All-Hazard Planning Section Chief
* All-Hazard Logistics Section Chief
* All-Hazard Finance/Administration Section Chief
* All-Hazard Safety Officer
* All-Hazard Liaison Officer
* All-Hazard Public Information Officer

For more information on the AHIMT Technical Assistance Program, please visit
www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/subjects/incident/imt/index.shtm, e-mail FEMA-AHIMT@dhs.gov or call (800) 238-3358, ext. 7888 / (301) 447-7888.

Do you want one of us who is not involved to do the FOIA? None should fear retribution for seeking fairness. Ab.

Also providing lots of support were the
crew of E-11
Modoc IHC and
Jim, Medic with Air Med 43 and the others on that crew

Thanks to all for letting your "essential nature" guide your lives.
We recognize it.

You grace our firefighting world with your presence and actions.

Dan, glad you're still with us!

Mellie

I captured extensive notes while working the WTC incident in Oct. 2001. I'll put those together at a later date. Yet I realized as this becomes history instead of recent past, the younger crowd of firefighters might like to hear a bit of what it was like being there. For now, I'll leave off the specifics and keep it general. I won't mention my agency or position. I do want to throw light on others.

During the detail, smoke rose outside our door, where we worked. Some of us worked in tents, some worked in fire stations, some worked across from the south tower. All of us met those who we considered the heroes, who had given more than we would or could give. Who is "us"? The incident management team members called in to support the incident. We had two goals. Provide an overall daily incident management plan and to provide three supply units. In one building where some of us worked the interior columns had long slashes from material blown into the building during the collapse. Twenty stories up a chunk of metal the size of an 18 wheeler jutted out of one building across the street from the collapse, blown there by the force of the rumble. The impact of the site cannot be forgotten.

I took offense at the folks calling it "the pile" until I spoke with the firefighters. Not wildland fire fighters. Locals. I gained a deep respect for those men and women. One told me that on September 11, he had taken the day off with pain in his shoulder. Another member of his crew / firehouse / engine company of 14 people had a "regular day off". Everyone else in their group responded and were killed in the collapse. So, you want to know what it was like being there? Imagine everyone on your crew or in your group being killed aside from you and another. These guys have a tradition. If someone is trapped in a collapse, the rest of the group maintain a presence on site until the people are rescued or recovered. These guys spent 12-18 hours a day on site for months, I'm sure.

The red cross provided meals. Volunteers. No salary. I felt ashamed to take my pay. Contractors scurried across the site. Paid, perhaps, but certainly hard working. I heard no dissent over ADs, contractors, or others. We all just worked.

Complaining because your agency doesn't provide boots. The supply units handed out hundreds of pairs. But they didn't last long. Even a month after the collapse the steel beams came out red hot. Soles melted on smoldering souls. Those city police and firefighters buy their own uniforms, guns, bullets, etc. Protective equipment? One policeman told me rookies get a shock at having to buy $1400 of gear when they graduate and hit the street.

We breathed people. And concrete. And who knows what else. I laugh at the idea the air had no high levels of contamination. Sure. Right.

Someday soon I'll put the whole story together, but for now, that's a taste of it. We appreciated the red cross volunteers, the donated goods, etc. The supply unit gave out only items donated by the American people. I saw thousands of pairs of gloves, each with a note attached from a school child. I was impressed by the American people, the firefighters, the volunteers, the contractors, and the stoic subway riders.

As an old Dodger fan, I'll never feel the same about New York. They can win another world series, for all I care. They earned it the hard way.

Confederate Yankee Fan.

CA-CNF-PINE

HP Wren cam- little video below:

http://grizzly.hpwren.ucsd.edu/Animations/hpwren-iqeye3/TODAY-Q5.mpg

Before we jump into the realm of a class-action lawsuit, it might be wise to get together
some real, hard, proven facts from the USDI and USDA through the Freedom of
Information Act.

Specifically, how many "re-employed annuitants" were use on wildfires in FY 2007?
What fire positions did they fill? (By ICS acronym)
What was their previous GS-level?
What GACC hired them?

Be sure to specify that you don't want "specific" names of individuals, just fire positions
and former GS-levels.

Sometimes facts can be more interesting than fantasies!

Aberdeen

And carry more leverage too. Ab.

JPA

Here's Something to Celebrate:

A firefighter on the line on the Wallow Fire (CA-STF) literally saved the life
of an Incident Management Team member on 8/31/07.

The person who was saved was visiting the fireline in performance of his duty
at 2250 hours. He received multiple bee stings (probably from those ground
dwelling wasps that hate to be disturbed by hoselays, being trod on, burned
out, etc).

He went into anaphylactic shock, had trouble breathing and lost consciousness.
Someone working on the line acted quickly and in a "lifesaving" fashion. The
bee sting victim was life-flighted out and survived.

We all want to know who the quick thinking person was! I'm told by Ab that
theysaid won't post any more than their first name without their permission.

Kudos for quick-thinking leadership should be given where kudos are due.
What better place than here?

Strider

Normbc9

Heads up. Here's the beginning of the A76 study for dispatchers...

Clear Channel - Interagency Dispatch Study

Resource Jocky

Thanks Bruce. Ab.

We are still having high temperatures and the issue of heat related illness with firefighters.

Here are a couple of good links for heat related issues.

Here is a good brochure on keeping hydrated and the do's & don'ts. (FS Intranet only)
http://fsweb.tahoe.r5.fs.fed.us/.../HeatDisorders/Wildland_Fire_Fighters_Heat_Stress_Brochure .doc

Also here is a good link on Energy drinks.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Dangers-Of-Energy-Drinks&id=501337

Take Care and on with the day.

Michelle

We just happened to be in the right place at the right time this afternoon here in south Orange County CA waiting for a table for an early dinner. We heard lots of rumbling outside and looked out to see 2 red fire engines followed by hundreds of motorcycles with many American flags. We went outside to watch and at the end was a red ladder truck with a large banner proclaiming: Rolling memorial for all fallen firefighters. Key word being ALL; its not about the color of the uniform or engine but honoring all fallen firefighters. I don't know where the rolling memorial originated nor where it was going but I certainly feel privileged for getting to see it. If anyone involved in the rolling memorial reads this I would like to give everyone involved a huge Thank You.

Tom Stein - re your post: well said sir.

Annette

Here's a photo to share of 9/11 and the Statue of Liberty. My cousin lives
in Brooklyn, just across the river from lower Manhattan and the World Trade
Center. That day 5 inches of ash was deposited on her back yard.

I heard about it here on theysaid before the first building collapsed and then
watched TV.

How our perception of the world changed...

Mellie

If you haven't looked at these photos, take a look: nywtc_pentagon/sept11.htm
If you haven't read this personal account, have a read: Elizabeth's Pentagon Journal (She's now on the Western NIMO Team.)

Ab.

Scroll thru and check out the 8th paragraph starting with "Hindsight is
always 20/20". This is Cal Fire Chief's communications to his personnel in
regards to professional liability. He has taken the initiative to take care
of his people and communicate his intent.

noname

Finally, thank you all, for being who you are, differences aside. The American Firefighter is the
gladiator of this century. Be proud and be strong, there is no other more respected family than the
one you belong to. Serve it well, with no question. You all are the true American heroes.

Sincerely,
Tom Stein

Any cool fire and water pics from Ham Lake MN this year or Cavity Lake last year?

Looking for the last photos to consider for this upcoming year's wildland fire calendar.

I'll be contacting folks who have sent in their great fire photos for consideration.

Ab.

and "Burning Bush" at
www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526200.600-burning-bush.html.

Has anyone else seen these, or have any thoughts? One of the blog comments to one of these was that this was the same as the known phenomenon of "area ignition", which was my first reaction, too. It is almost presented like it's this secret thing that only a few folks have ever seen... but if they are talking about area ignition, then maybe this just represents more scientists trying to figure that out. Just curious what folks think on this...

-easterner

It's been a busy season for all you fire folks out there.... If it's not one, it's another starting... Just thought I'd post a little tidbit for those fire buffs and fire folks wanting more accurate and constant up-to-date coverage on the Moonlight Fire burning on the Plumas National Forest... I work for the local newspaper and thought I might share this info with all who are either wondering what is going on or have pictures and stories to share with the public. http://www.plumasnews.com

Our Publisher's Assistant-Kevin Mallory is doing an outstanding job in keeping all informed as the info flows in... And to all of those who are in the areas that are evacuated or are on Precautionary Alert to Evacuate, my heart and prayers go out to you... This one's a bit close to home for me as well, however I live in a 'safe" zone at least at this time... :o)

Hang in there folks!! This one's a long and bumpy ride, but be reassured that all of our firefighters are fighting the fight and slowly, but surely winning the fight... And a great big ^5 to all of the agencies working together to "Save Lives & Cheat Death" per se... (a little motto my hubby taught me ages ago)

The "Big Plane" that many are asking about is a DC-10 and one of Cal-Fire's new "Toys". Lots of guidelines that they must follow in order for it to be allowed to fly, but it's doing the best it can. I've been told that you can find more info about the DC-10 on the Cal-Fire website.... It carries 12,000 gallons of retardant.... WOO HOO!!!

The smoke is thick and intermittent periods of ash floating in the neighborhoods of Westwood, Hamilton Branch and even Chester. I've even received emails as far as Los Angeles, Fresno, Manteca, Modesto and Oregon that they too are getting our smoke from this fire.... All we can do is hope that our Maidu Elders are out performing the greatest Rain Dance of their lives....

Stay Safe and Keep up the Fight!!
Dee T

Hi Dee T. Glad you're gainfully employed. Readers link to the plumasnews site on the Hotlist every so often. Good photos.
Moonlight fire info from our Hotlist: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1828
DC-10 discussion: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1280 Did it paint that ridge successfully today? Is it holding?

Readers: I have been researching this. I can assure everyone that the situation was dealt with professionally, swiftly and ethically. Demobing the people involved from that incident is not a punishment, especially as they were reassigned. These people were in highly demanding jobs requiring their complete attention. Anything in their environment compromising their attention compromises safety and flying things can fall out of the sky. It's hard to remain situationally aware when you have a lot of extraneous stuff on your mind regardless of its origin or you're being reminded of a lot of extraneous stuff by your environment. I think you can all understand this. The team made the right choice in my opinion. It won't be discussed here any further. Ab.

There has been some research being done behind the scenes. Thanks to those who responded and have been trying to track this down. One branch of research replied:

Done a little more snooping around.

>From a Cal Fire associate, there is no insurance company that cover state
and local government employees.

>From an attorney that deals with state and local government, there is a
state law that covers those employees under "Public entity's General Duty
to Defend and Indemnify Employee" that requires a public entity to defend a
present or former employee.

>From there those that are on Federal teams, thru the local, or Cooperative,
or CFAA agreements that should link the employee back to the state or local
government agency they work for. With that I am not an attorney so unsure
if what I say is correct. You may need to continue to pursue it.

If I hear more I will let you know.

Forest Service firing unjust?
Disagreement over fire safety
www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_6846046
By George Watson, Staff Writer

A former U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman says she was fired from her job because she refused to downplay the severity of the wildfire danger in the San Bernardino National Forest.

Ruth Wenstrom, who spent nine years as the San Bernardino National Forest's public-affairs officer, was terminated July 2.

Matt Mathes, the Forest Service's regional press officer based in Vallejo, near San Francisco, said he recalled that Wenstrom was "overstating the situation" in the forest.

In a recent interview, Wenstrom said that in April 2006, National Forest officials were told not to request budgetary augmentation funds, known as "severity dollars," that they had asked for and received in the past. That meant cutting the number of engines being staffed in the forest, she said.

Wenstrom said officials told her to draft a list of talking points to address the public's concerns about having fewer firefighters and engines in a forest filled with millions of dead trees and drought-weakened bushes. She said she wrote a draft and sent it to Mathes.

Wenstrom's draft described the reduction as "a problem," to which she claimed Mathes immediately responded by saying it should state that "everything is fine out there in the forest, and there is no need for additional funds."

Wenstrom was aghast.

"I said that would be a bold-faced lie," said Wenstrom, 52, in an interview Friday at her Redlands home. "The forest is not healthy. I said, `I'm not going to say that. The public's not stupid."'

Two days later, she said, she was stripped of her duties and sent to work at the Riverside Fire Lab. She filed an Equal Employment Opportunity complaint because of the added costs of driving to Riverside.

Soon after her reassignment, Wenstrom was transferred to the Angeles National Forest, a 50-mile drive, and then fired when supervisors listed 34 charges of misusing her government-issued computer and for a series of other actions deemed improper.

Mathes confirmed he had a discussion with Wenstrom in spring 2006, but that Wenstrom's recollections were "not an entirely accurate account of the exchange."

He declined to elaborate in a second interview later Friday, saying the matter is a personnel issue.

To read the rest, click the link at the top.

Fair Use Disclaimer

How can the anyone hold Incident Commanders responsible as Professionals when their Agency continually disputes the fact that they are professional firefighters? How can the Agency help an I.C. obtain Professional Liability Insurance when they continually deny them the recognition as professionals in their job descriptions?

The Forest Service should be mandated to strike all recruitment efforts skewed towards firefighting. The title is used as a lure or 'bait and switch' technique. The Forest Service should have to include a disclosure form to all Fire employees that includes information on how they will serve in a firefighter capacity while titled as and receiving pay as a Forestry Aid.

What if someone applied with intentions to perform as a Forestry Aid and was mislead into firefighting duties? In R-5 you could go your whole career and not perform any Forestry Aid work... other than firefighting I guess. That person could be lead to believe that the firefighting portion of their job was less serious than it actually is. They might think firefighting was some trivial portion of their job and this would be a serious safety concern.

Anyone know a good lawyer that could make sense of all this nonsense?

JH

I'm still rolling the Cascade Complex ICP burnover around in my head.

Looked at the old slideshow.

Couple more things.

• Where are the fire shelters for all the camp personnel seated in the middle
  of camp during the burnover? They don't seem to have any.
• Why wasn't the camp located in the other larger portion of the meadow
  with more clearance around it if this was really planned out?
• Was this team the one that had their camp burned over in Minnesota too?
  Sounds like it's Embroyled in controversy to me.

Sign me
Looking for the PLAN...

Discussion of the Cascade Complex ICP burnover is on the Hotlist Discussion, too. Ab.
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1529

One hour time lapse... and firefighters are expected notice, escape or pull out their fire shelters, as if those would help. Definitely adds perspective on the RISKs of fighting fire.
Hotlist discussion thread Here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1891 Ab.

As for the person who commented on calfire.
I've decided I don't like people shouting at me. So I speak quietly. You can call it anything you want, CALFIRE, CalFire, Cal-Fire, etc. But you won't hear this again from me because its sooooo annoying: LANDFIRE, NRIS, TERRA, CALFIRE, etc. Its a matter of choice. I've decided to put them all in their place, and that's in lowercase. Sometimes, you just have to take control of your own life. To me, it will always be calfire.

I found a solution to these and other problems. Go into another line of business soon and . . .

retired early

How does column collapse relate to aerial ignition if at all?
On Storm King (South Canyon), 30 mile, Cramer???

Mellie

U.S. to Help Greece in Firefighting
www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Greece-Fires.html

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- The United States offered Friday to help with future firefighting efforts in Greece, where 67 people died in wildfires last month.

The U.S. help will include tracking down arsonists, said Tom Harbour, director of Fire and Aviation Management at the U.S. Forest Service. Arson was suspected in many of the blazes that swept Greece last month, destroying hundreds of homes.

''Arsonists are my enemy, they are sick people,'' Harbour said. ''We are most anxious to cooperate ... there was discussion, and there will be follow-up between our governments.''

want more? click the link.

Aid arrives to help Greece after fires
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070903/ap_on_re_eu/greece_fires_5
with slideshow and video

Very interesting, isn't it? Glad you asked the question. I've learned a lot. Ab.

I read your site often, can you tell me what the term "ice capping" means?

thanks
Diana

Interesting discussion with photos emerging here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1891

And for the safety and wellbeing of firefighters. Ab.

Might be a good time to run away...

www.liveleak.com/view?i=af7_1189291200 (must have Flash 8 and download it)

DM

We have been informed of a situation that occurred on a fire assignment in another Region where our personnel were involved in an altercation at a bar quite late at night. The altercation resulted in an arrest of one of our employees. Moreover, the time and attendance records of the same module are alleged to contain obvious discrepancies. The whole situation is under investigation.

The vast majority of our employees represent themselves and the Forest Service with honor. The situation described above is an anomaly, but it compels me to remind all Region 5 employees likely to engage in fire suppression and support activities of our expectations for their behaviors and performance. These expectations are clearly expressed in the values adopted by the Fire and Aviation Management organization: Duty, Respect, and Integrity.

1. Duty – This season is already long and arduous for many of our firefighters and support personnel, including those on the home unit trying to keep up with the pace of business. The consequences of an eroded situational awareness on the safety of our employees can be severe. Firefighters may miss important environmental cues that affect their risk decisions on the fireline and cloud their judgment. Others might fail to notice critical indicators of impending danger while driving, operating machinery, or working in the field. The assaults on situational awareness take many forms, including alcohol, fatigue, conflict in the home or on the job, etc. Employees have the responsibility to ensure they are fit for duty when duty calls, and must take whatever steps are necessary to preserve their situational awareness.
   
   We all need to be concerned about the chronic fatigue that accrues as we attempt to sustain a high level of effort over time. Incident overhead must work to ensure their personnel are receiving appropriate rest, and not consistently planning their actions around a 16-hour work day. Crew leaders need to constantly monitor the fatigue and other assaults on situational awareness affecting themselves and their crew members, and mitigate the hazards to the degree they can. Local unit leadership also has the responsibility to monitor the fatigue and other issues that affect the safety and productivity of employees under their supervision. Each individual must do the same, getting rest when it is afforded, and avoiding the things that rob them of their capacity. Their wellbeing and that of those around them require it.
2. Respect – The US Forest Service is a respected agency. The public believes in our mission and trusts those of us called to perform it. When we are in public we carry a responsibility to represent ourselves and our agency with honor and mutual respect. When any of us acts otherwise it casts a pall on all of us. We must hold each other accountable to act respectfully and with honor at all times.
3. Integrity – The majority of our employees in the field have a high degree of integrity. Those on fires are working long days, and there is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of timesheets accurately reflect that work. There are some, however, that have decided 16-hours is an entitlement for every day while on assignment, whether worked or not. This is not only unethical it is illegal, and employees place themselves in jeopardy when they do it.

Conversely, there is evidence that crews are sometimes required to show meal breaks during times and in situations where breaks are neither required nor appropriate. Policies within the Interagency Incident Business Management Handbook are clear, yet allow for discretion in view of each situation. We have a policy; we must apply it with good judgment.
I want each of you to share these thoughts with those on your unit. These values are important to our legitimacy and long-term value to the American people. They extend to all of us and to all aspects of our work, and form the core of our operational ethic. They are who we are, and what we are about.

/s/ James M. Peña (for)
BERNARD WEINGARDT
Regional Forester

cc: pdl r5 fam
pdl r5 ro directors

Those Crafty Canadians are at it again.

First there was the CL-215/415 Superscoopers and now they are working
on the Q-400 airtanker.

www.cascadeaerospace.com/products/Q400 Air Tanker Conversion/

STOL capabilities, nice cruise speed, able to operate on unimproved landing
strips should keep it close to the fires and give it short turn around times.

Mid West FMO

Many writing in here write it CalFire or Cal Fire. I think technically it's CAL FIRE or CALFIRE, all caps. It's a STYLE thang. There's a new Cal Fire patch, too. Nice. 75,000+ of them are supposed to show up in October. aB.

LIONA (Lots of InfO No Answers)

The training noms are done, taskbooks are signed, PCMS is up to date, the
crew is fit and happy, 500 hrs oats (not bad for an agency engine, almost all
hours earned on forest except one roll to Utah), engine is running great, no
injuries (except one CA-1 for a bee sting), steelhead season is coming up,
and the sun is still shining. Just hoping everyone else takes a little bit of time
to think about what they do with what they have, not what they have.

HOG

Here on my District on the SRF, we sent 3 Engine Strike teams off -forest this summer, plus numerous single resource assignments, our Handcrew has been gone almost all summer, just got back from Idaho a while ago, and went off forest again. Single resource overhead, even down to ICT4, and CRWBs, we sent to Arizona, Alaska, and Michigan this year. Right now we have ALL our green Engines off forest, and are covering with 2 contract Engines. And even those are taking turns going to Hoopa and CalFire fires. So not all Fire managers are holding back...I'm not sure who is doing this, if anyone.. .could just be rumors turning into someone's reality...come work here in Orleans if you are unhappy elsewhere, we seem to be keeping folks busy...(and we have a few vacancies...)

-MJ

Interesting points, Old Timer. To others who responded behind the scenes, thanks for the good info. It is being passed on. Old timer, Todd is not CalFire. This Ab doesn't have the CalFire knowledge to get people in touch with each other behind the scenes to meet the needs, or I would have. This is not about lawsuits, but getting some help. Ab.

Not that I know of. Ab.

FF/R5

All the CALFIRE firefighters on the Inyo Complex burnover got damaged lungs to some degree. The engineer hasn't been released for duty and I don't think his lungs will ever recover all the way for duty. I heard they all have bad nights and the two that never fought fire before this year are just going to resign calfire and go away. I don't understand why people are not speaking out -from the investigators -to the firefighters -to the head of CDF. I hate to think this is a coverup. Is it?

Are there firefighters out there at these guys home base who can advise all the kids, tell them they need to act now because years from now when they might have trouble this should be on record??? Are there any moms reading that can get with other moms and go to them and interview them or advise them??? Who can help them?

Are we just going to make them suck this up and keep silent?

Todd

I have a bunch of pics to post. Was waiting. Next week? Ab.

I had to download the new version of google-earth to view this but it is spectacular! Good to see the Antelope Fire footprint on there too. Glad for that successful outcome. Good for CIIMT3 on wrapping that up. Good luck on your house, Zeke. Ab.

A few days ago Jesse Crawford (age 31) received 3 bee stings while working on a Forest Service project and died the next day. He worked on a Forest Service Enterprise Team that was (I think) doing timber marking on the Shasta T. He lived in Doris CA and leaves behind two daughters ages 3 and 6. His funeral is today.

For those that don't know, an Enterprise Team is comprised of Forest Service Employees that contract with the FS for a particular project. They are part of the FS family and are just organized a little differently along a business plan so as to be more mobile in where they work.

Not surprisingly, Jesse's team members are shocked and hurting. They could use some support, someone to talk with, some counseling, something that others in the FS workplace receive when people die. As I understand it, the safety manager/supervisor of this particular Enterprise Team is located in Idaho, although the team's home base is CA. The manager for the team and those needing help were told to call the Employee Assistance Program's (EAP) 800 phone number. The Employee Assistance Program's response is: We can't help you, you're not in R5.

Now this seems to me to be a case of BS politics. Not in R5? No help til after the autopsy??? What kind of <stuff > is that? Get our people some help! It's the HUMANE thing to do!!!!

Lesson learned?

• Enterprise Team members are second class or non-citizens within the Forest Service (because of centralization of the system).
• When bee stings happen, doctor up. Demand it!

I'm willing to hear feedback privately or on theysaid and clarify anything. Right now this incident smacks to me of the "deny, deny deny" or the "distance, distance, distance" mentality that occurs whenever bad things happen. Don't admit it could have happened on our watch. It's not really our group, is it? FS Employee Assistance Program People, just be HUMAN BEINGs and step up to help. It doesn't even take Extreme Leadership!

Mellie

After 40 years with the Forest Service chasing fires around the country becoming a well respected leader in the fire arena, as well as pursuing his passion for seeing the American Chestnut return to the forested landscape, and of course his leadership here on the Daniel Boone National Forest, Rex Mann has elected to retire come early December 2007. We will surely want to help him celebrate in the style he is well deserving of. Therefore, we are putting together a book of letters, mementos, pictures, etc. for him. If you have something you would like to add, including stories -- which I am sure there are far too many -- please send them to Robin Acciardo (racciardo@ fs.fed.us) or Bonny Truett (btruett@ fs.fed.us) here on the Boone.

no name

Our best to him. The American Chestnut project is awesome. Ab.

AB,

I am familiar with the NWCG description for FEMT, but am not aware of any
Fireline Paramedic description they have yet adopted. I believe either NWCG
or FIRESCOPE is tackling this issue as we speak. In the interim, though,
IMTs continue ordering Fireline Paramedics "with gear". This is difficult
to fill as there is no "standard" in R-5 or nation-wide for FEMT-P gear that
I know of.

Can you put me in touch with someone in the know on this project?

Thanks!

Sacmedic

I added Terry Molzahn's fire manager accomplishments to the Mill Creek Hotshot list and Mike Ryan's accomplishments to the Little T hotshots and the Bear Divide IHC on the "IHC-->Fire Manager" Project

Terry was red carded as a ICT2 in 1995 and as a ICT1 in 2001 and was the only GS-9 in the nation Redcarded for ICT1. He was also the DFMO at Mount Whitney RD on the Inyo before he detailed into the Assistant Forest FMO (Chief 2) job. He retired in Dec of 2004 and says, "I am very proud of coming from Mill Creek Hotshots and where I went in my 34 years with the Forest Service."

Mike was a member of the Little Tujunga Hotshots in 1980 and then a member of the Bear Divide HS from 1981-1983. He's currently DFMO on the Kern River RD on the SQF.

I would tell judi to start doing her research,
beginning on this site and with the firebooks list.
Most of these books have the terminology correct,

• it may be DNR in Minnesota but in Idaho it's IDL
• teams are called crews unless Incident Management Teams
• drop tank planes are called airtankers.

"What would be his challenges?" - first to get carded!

She's got a ways to go.

earthpig

Judi, getting "carded" is getting the basic firefighter training that gets you a "red card." Ab.

Anyone got any suggestions for Judi? Ab.

I can certainly understand your frustration, but I would be willing to bet that a vast majority
of that 140 number are CalFire handcrews, and therefore guests of the state of California who
cannot travel out of the state. It's been a tough summer on everyone, let's try to remember
everything ends; every shift, every fire, every season.

Keep one in the black Brothers and Sisters.

sign me-
ExR5 now NGOFMO

Thanks NGFMO. Strider just put a post on the Moonlight Fire thread that there are 2 Single Resource crews and 26 Strike Teams of CalFire crews on that fire, that's 54 state crews right there. Ab.

OMG! I just had to put this up so readers can get a glimpse of what "stuff" would get "discussed" if this was not a moderated website. This time of the season, some firefighters get downright p*ssy. Good grief. Oldfireboss and Therightstuff, I'd be happy to put you in touch with each other behind the scenes so you can discover any "Lessons Learned".

On another note... I am really glad there's a fire near the norcal coast so the norcal "sybil" out there who write(s) in to this board at night can get off their computers and put away their trail improvement tools and GO FIGHT FIRE! Yeah. Ab.

Do you get the feeling wildland firefighters are sick of being studied? Jim Saveland is one of the good guys, I hope folks will cut this study some slack until the results are in.

Funny watching how firefighters bristle when someone suggests wildland firefighters accept unnecessary risks. Recent experience tells me that fireline supervisors, me included, ARE becoming increasingly accepting of risks that would have been unacceptable a few years ago. I was comparing notes about this summer’s fires with a new DIVS on the Sawmill Complex last week:

• Multiple orders for type 1 & 2 crews, DOZB, FELB, TFLD, STLC, & other line overhead positions now frequently go unfilled for days or weeks. Long-term planning for operations is not possible when you have no idea whether resources ordered for your division will ever arrive.
• Type 1 & 2 teams are presently handicapped by the lack of available fireline supervisors willing or able to participate in skill operations supervisory positions. These include inherently governmental positions which directly supervise and sign pay documents for contract resources.
• Lack of intermediate overhead is causing span of control and safety issues. Due to lack of qualified overhead, trainees frequently serve in place of qualified line personnel, without mentors, and without qualified intermediate overhead working underneath them. Teams are therefore unable to adequately supervise fallers, dozers, excavators, engines, crews, tenders, and other resources.
• Overhead trainees are subject to unfair expectations and evaluations due to lack of qualified trainers and widespread deviation from usual resource span-of-control standards.
• Agency retiree ADs fill many critical positions ATGS, etc on IMTs. Most ADs are excellent, but why aren’t there trainees working with every AD? For that matter, why aren’t there enough qualified agency people in critical positions? Many ADs will be retiring for good soon. All of that knowledge and experience goes out the door with them.
• Type 1 helicopters and air tankers now frequently drop on targets that are not reinforced with personnel on the ground, targets that teams never had any intention (or capability) of supporting. This delaying tactic is very expensive, exposes pilots to unnecessary risk, and is rarely ultimately successful on large fires without support on the ground.
• Radio communications are becoming increasingly problematic, not better. Repeater availability, narrowband confusion, lack of available frequencies, & crappy radios still cause huge problems.
• Contractors & EERA stuff.

If you go to work knowing the above latent conditions exist, then you are knowingly accepting unnecessary risks. It doesn’t matter that the unsafe conditions are being imposed upon you by an ideologically bankrupt administration exercising it’s will through political appointees and agency lackeys, these conditions are real and they diminish your ability to do a professional job and keep wildland firefighters under your charge safe.

Passive firefighting seems to be the new way. There is apparently little stigma attached to waiting for a fire to get rolling and blow over your head, but calculated risks such as indirect line construction and large-scale burnouts which carry any risk of failure are now becoming passé. Direct line is also becoming endangered due to lack of capable crews and overhead.

Welcome to firefighting in the twenty-first century. Be safe out there.

Misery Whip

www.tri-cityherald.com/galleries/story/9228592p-9144415c.html

fire burned 67K of private, DOE, & USFWS lands

Thought I would send the link by the local newspaper of the pictures they took of this fire.

Zimm

Inciweb on this fire: www.inciweb.org/incident/950/

Readers, Ab has 3 summary excel files and a ppt. Ask and I'll send them to you.

Alcohol and Big Macs can be a health risk as well, but they as well as tobacco
are legal substances. I say that as a firefighter were gonna eat smoke and if we
don't like the risks, there are all kinds of jobs out there we can take with out the
health risks. This would also make room for those who really want to fight fire.

7107

Is this normal timing for hiring? I would think you
would do this after season, but then again that would
show common sense. But really, do they plan on hiring
next week even with the lack of personnel due to fires?
Come on people, let's be smart.

ME

www.wildlandfire.com/pics/fire34/moonlt-divc.jpg

Thanks, check for it the Fire34 photo page. Ab.

Is this more of a journalist for firefightingnews.com taking off on the original AP article?
If so, that original AP writer and all who pick it up do wildland firefighters a dis-service
and perpetuate stereotypes.

Forest Service Asks If Firefighters Live Dangerously
September 4, 2007
www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=37280

I just read through this report, and it has some valuable information for prevention
in the future. However, I believe that there is an error in the Vehicle Fatality portion
as it was First Strike Environmental that lost 8 people in an auto accident out of
Vale, Oregon, not Ferguson Management as it states in the report.

Deborah Miley
NWSA

DimWhit

As for the smoke issue this resurfaces constantly. Yes, folks eat smoke
doing this job and always have and will continue to do so. I don't think
anyone eats as much as we used to when suppression was much more
aggressive. However, those folks that make the choice to participate in
suppression and prescribed fire realize that fires produce smoke and
continue to do the job anyway, regardless of the risk, because they like
what they do. Having done this job for 20+ years I am fully cognizant of
the fact that I may have some health issues later due to smoke. Hasn't made
me quit and get a job at Wal-mart.

FMO Joeboy

www.wildlandfire.com/pics/fire34/moonlt-susanville.jpg

Moonlight fire from Susanville, CA. 09/04/2007 1400 local
Photo compliments of K6.

For the other two, check the Fire34 photo page.

Some good presentations for safety, review, and familiarization from the Lessons Learned Center:

HRO for "Fire Crews"
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=67

HRO for "Fire Managers"
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=66

"This Season"
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=59

Fatigue, Decision Making, and the Fireline
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=47

Preparing for Command in the Wildland Urban Interface (Parts 1, 2, and 3)
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=36

A Different Way of Thinking About Leading and Change by Scott Snook
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=11

High Reliability Organizing by Karl Weick and Kathleen Sutcliffe
www.wildfirelessons.net/Presentation.aspx?ID=12

Lobotomy

Your post seems to imply that they were not. I can't argue with you because I don't know them. I just want everyone to understand the system. A few years ago several CDF strike teams were sent to Montana. They sat in base camp for a day or two because they didn't have Red Cards. The Safety officer on the fire didn't understand the system. Were they unqualified Firefighters ? Were they unsafe ? I don't think so. If you think the system is broken don't blame R-5. Go back to the local agency or to OES and explain where you think the system is flawed. My local agency trains to the standards of PMS-310 - 1 but we don't apply for Red Cards. You do your training in the spring, do the paperwork and your Red Card shows up in November.

danfromord

here is a shot that my dad, ron lunder, took of the moonlight fire
from atop keddie ridge today at 1600.

moonlight-keddie.jpg

zl

Nice one. Permanent link is on the Fire34 photo page. Ab.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/dailyMovies/cam2/HC2_daily.mpg

Time lapse

MG

pnf-moonlight.jpg

Heres a picture I took of the Helitorch on the Zaca Fire. This was in Brubaker Canyon on 08/24/2007. Photo compliments of Ryan B, LPF

zaca-helitorch.jpg

Nice ones. You can find links to these and more on the Fire34 and Helicopters23 photo pages. Ab.

DANNYBOY

New way of fighting fire from the air?
Weyerhaeuser finishing tests of Boeing's firefighting container system

Thanks for info on the cleanup. Ab.

"To me, it would make much more sense to perform annual lung or respiratory function tests once one starts working in this profession. That would provide both the firefighter and the agency a record of the effects of smoke exposure on the employee."

I totally agree. For the Forests and agencies who are following NFPA standards and using SCBAs, you should be years ahead of the curve if your Forest or District is:

1) Establishing an employee baseline, and

2) Providing annual spirometer testing.

Lobotomy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Federal Firefighters Fairness Act of 2007

110th CONGRESS
1st Session

S. 1924

To amend chapter 81 of title 5, United States Code, to create a presumption that a disability or death of a Federal employee in fire protection activities caused by any of certain diseases is the result of the performance of such employee's duty.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
August 1, 2007

Mr. CARPER (for himself, Mr. WARNER, and Mr. MENENDEZ) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

A BILL

To amend chapter 81 of title 5, United States Code, to create a presumption that a disability or death of a Federal employee in fire protection activities caused by any of certain diseases is the result of the performance of such employee's duty.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Federal Firefighters Fairness Act of 2007'.

SEC. 2. CERTAIN DISEASES PRESUMED TO BE WORK-RELATED CAUSE OF DISABILITY OR DEATH FOR FEDERAL EMPLOYEES IN FIRE PROTECTION ACTIVITIES.

(a) In General- Section 8102 of title 5, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(c)(1) In this subsection, the term `employee in fire protection activities' means an employee, including a firefighter, paramedic, emergency medical technician, rescue worker, ambulance personnel, or hazardous materials worker, who--

`(A) is trained in fire suppression, has the legal authority and responsibility to engage in fire suppression; and

`(B) is engaged in the prevention, control, and extinguishment of fires or response to emergency situations where life, property, or the environment is at risk.

`(2) In the case of an employee in fire protection activities who has a disease specified in paragraph (3), the employee's disease shall be presumed to be proximately caused by the employment of such employee. A disability or death of an employee in fire protection activities due to such a disease shall be presumed to result from personal injury sustained while in the performance of such employee's duty. Such presumptions may be rebutted by a preponderance of the evidence.

`(3) The diseases specified in this paragraph are the following:

`(A) Heart disease.

`(B) Lung disease.

`(C) The following cancers:

`(i) Brain cancer.
`(ii) Cancer of the blood or lymphatic systems.
`(iii) Leukemia.
`(iv) Lymphoma (except Hodgkin's disease).
`(v) Multiple myeloma.
`(vi) Bladder cancer.
`(vii) Kidney cancer.
`(viii) Prostate cancer.
`(ix) Testicular cancer.
`(x) Cancer of the digestive system.
`(xi) Colon cancer.
`(xii) Liver cancer.
`(xiii) Skin cancer.
`(xiv) Breast cancer
`(xv) Lung cancer.

`(D) The following infectious diseases:

`(i) Tuberculosis.
`(ii) Hepatitis A, B, or C.
`(iii) Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).
`(iv) Diphtheria.
`(v) Hemorrhagic fever.
`(vi) Meningococcal disease.
`(vii) Rabies.
`(viii) Any uncommon infectious disease the contraction of which the Secretary of Labor determines to be related to the hazards to which an employee in fire protection activities may be subject.'.

(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by this section applies to an injury that is first diagnosed, or a death that occurs, on or after the date of enactment of this Act.

Hi Ab,

To get into the Cal Fire statistics information just go to www.fire.ca.gov and when it comes up scroll down on your left margin to “Fact Sheet”. Then when it comes up look down the middle column to the Largest Fires by Acreage. It is printed there. If it is in error, go back to the Home page and it will give you the central phone number to speak to their Information Services technician. That is what I do when they get something wrong (and they frequently do, too) and give them the source so they can verify the data and then they have to get into the customary bureaucracy to get authorization to correct it.

Normbc9

I was at the Cascade camp prior to the burnover. I was with the IMT in place that transferred command to the IMT that decided to stay in place. Let me be clear, there was a evacuation plan prepared of some 17 pages in length which was, in my estimation, never read nor considered. Within the evacuation plan it was spelled out that all non-essential personnel would be evacuated in anticipation of a burnover. No matter what spin is put on this exposure to a health hazard, failure to limit exposure to qualified line personnel should be investigated and dealt with.

--Rastaman

The Monument is going to be moving somewhere, will need private funding, and no one asked the employees in Boise or elsewhere for input. Don't know anything more. I agree, it would be nice to be informed. I have been and will be in a place without cell coverage, so I have no way of finding the answers unless someone writes in. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
original post:

Ab, here's several interesting lists of stats. SoCal CalFire

ZACA Fire is currently the 3rd largest fire in modern California history. (The Zaca Fire was officially declared 188,035 acres on 08/19/07 at 0600 hrs. This morning it was reported to be 214,725 acres.)

Notable California wildfires by size

20 Largest California Wildland Fires (By Acreage Burned)
CAL FIRE Publish Date: 8/16/2007

Does anyone know where the original stats are posted in CalFire documents? Are they online?

SoCal Cal Fire says he knew of a doc but had gotten the list in his post to theysaid from the Wrightwood website... so I guess if the numbers are wrong they're going through the internet ethers as wrong numbers. Stanley or Rich, tell us the right ones and we'll correct it here. No doubt Wrightwood would as well. It would be good to have correct numbers in the original calfire document, too. By the way, All, this is why it's good to give exact details on where information is obtained and link or url if from an internet source. Ab.

Any photos?

I've been "lurking" for a few years now, taking lots of things in. I would like to complement everyone on a great web site. Thank you for the time and commitment to it, I've learned alot from it and it's still one of the first places I go if anything happens in the wildland community.

I feel a little qualified to speak on the Cascade incident because I was at the camp for 14 days and have first hand insight as to how things were. Since the first day, we were living in smoke . We could watch the fires progress from camp each night and every day it was creeping closer. The inversion was bad and even worse after the burnover/ burn-by. My crew was working structure protection in the Warm Lake community the whole time we were there, including the day of the burnover.

I do not have first hand experience what camp was like while the fire front went through, only what I could observe from our position by the lake. When they finally let us come back in around 0100 the next morning, the results were as someone already posted. Heavy smoke, ash everywhere, etc. The next morning walking to breakfast, another crew member and I were still finding spots throughout camp. Don't know how many were found during the day then, maybe they were part of that 100 count.

The remainder of the trip, the smoke was bad. I talked to someone who has been doing this for over 30 years and he said it was the second worst camp for smoke he's ever been in. The worst one, he said, was when EPA came in and declared a disaster area so the towns folks could get financial assistance for health problems. I know personally our crew, myself included, fought health problems the rest of the trip. I've been home for a little over a week now and finally went to the doctor for some antibiotics. The green stuff coming out of me gets annoying real quick.

I will admit, even going through all that, I still had a great time. My love for firefighting helps make all the smoke, unclean showers like Onelick talked about, green things in my eggs, and anything else all just part of the experience to me.

I don't know why the IMT made the decisions they did. Fortunately no one got seriously injured or killed. IMO it was a very close call. Should we have stayed or should they have moved camp? That decision is in the past and no sense beating a dead horse. I agree with Mellie, there should be lessons learned and discussed. I guess we'll see what happens though.

Hope this provided a little more insight for some people. Everyone be safe and take care.

Knarf

Thanks, Dick. Permanent link to the T&D website on our links page under Fed. Ab.

Normbc9

Hope the ranch had good insurance.

Old LPF