re-emphasizing the fact that all four Southern California forests should be on the same page and collectively work together on such matters.

I agree, similar to when one retired Fire Chief and current Forest Supervisor on the ANF and other Forests are working on local pay raises, special pay and other benefits for Fire Employees they should include all of the 4 So. Cal Forests during those discussions. No Forest in So Cal should be working alone, however the trend lately seems to be to work on these issues in the shadows. Which is probably why no one Forest has been successful to date. If R-5 would like one big FAT Unfair Labor Practice, they only need to implement some kind of pay benefit/increase on one of the 4 So Cal Forests and exclude the other 3. We've only been doing special pay together to 18 years.

Lets work together people! And it starts with each of the 4 - Fire Chiefs, Forest Supervisors and Forest Captain Reps doing something as a TEAM!

Letterman

Normbc9

As Lori mentioned, we will be welcoming Ken home at LAX on Tuesday, Nov. 6 at, or around 1:30 p.m., barring any issues with his overseas flights. We’ll keep you posted if things change.

If you live in the area, please help us welcome back this awesome guy! Thank you to everyone who has pledged to Ken’s Run – you help us do so much with your support. It’s not too late to pledge a donation to Ken’s efforts.

Stay tuned for more Ken’s Sahara Run updates and for additional information for his WELCOME HOME!

Melissa Schwagerl, WFF

There is a Work Life Conference going on in Sac. right now. Speakers yesterday included FS Chief Gail Kimball, Randy Moore, Lee Brown (a motivational speaker), Marilyn Manning, a conflict mediator who talked about facilitating positive change. There was small group work. Leaders did not want to hear anything negative. Most I heard obliged. May be more info when it's over...

As far as the agency for a new fire organization. It can't be FEMA or DHS. They are not high reliability organizations (HRO) that have a history or an interest in Lessons Learned. Department of Homeland Security is anything but transparent. FEMA that is made up of rather few simple citizens without any particular training, even has people that stage its own bogus press conferences... It has simply been a conduit for dispersing $$ after all.

We need warriors male and female who are willing to take a tough look and learn lessons, from the groundpounders among us to the highest managers, without CYA. That needs to be a working procedure that we all expect and embrace to be everything we can be.

RK, otherwise unnamed please

Send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email.

Some photos again:

runners (I think Ken is to the left, about 4th in and in the middle row with the tan cocky hat and quirky grin.)
white desert & stage2 in white desert
camels2.jpg & camel.jpg
rocks
stage2

Kenneth C. Perry Male <little USA flag> United States  06:47:56  08:47:59  07:37:28 07:18:05

Mellie

Donate to Ken's Run; it's tax deductible: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

GAAS:873:07
For Immediate Release: Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Governor Schwarzenegger Directs State Agencies to Prepare for Forecasted
Weekend Winds in Southern California

In preparation for the forecasted return of Santa Ana winds beginning
this Friday, Governor Schwarzenegger today directed the California
National Guard (CNG), California Department of Forestry and Fire
Protection (CAL FIRE) and Office of Emergency Services (OES) to
proactively prepare for a new round of fires in southern California.

Under the Governor's direction, these agencies have developed an
aggressive, tactical plan to pre-position staff and assets in areas
facing a high fire risk, based on weather projected for Friday through
Monday.

"It's very important that we remain prepared and alert while there are
still fires burning in southern California," said Governor
Schwarzenegger. "This plan helps ensure that resources are strategically
placed and standing ready, prepared for whatever the weekend will bring.

"Our firefighters have done a tremendous job combating the blazes in
southern California. We are grateful for their continued dedication and
hard work in protecting our state."

CAL FIRE preparation for the Santa Ana winds threat includes deployment
of air tankers, tactical aircraft, helicopters, strike and dispatch
teams, and other assets to locations including Ramona, Hemet, Paso,
Porterville, Fresno, Victorville, Riverside and San Diego. CAL FIRE will
also deploy engine strike teams throughout the state, including San
Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, Los Angeles County, Santa Barbara
County and Kern County. In addition, OES will position strike teams in
Orange and Ventura counties.

The CNG will maintain a deployed presence of 1,500 guardsmen and six
firefighting helicopters to support ongoing response efforts. The CNG
will place additional forces on alert to be recalled if necessary to
support future missions.

CAL FIRE continues to adjust staffing and equipment patterns in
preparation for the weekend. CAL FIRE oversaw the fire resources used to
address 22 fires in Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange, San Bernardino,
Riverside and San Diego counties that began October 21. Four fires are
still burning.

GGW

Ab has copied and pasted two replies to Gizmo. More are welcome.

Ocean of sand
30-Oct-2007 05:30:10 AM [(GMT-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada); Tijuana]

Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007

Today was a good day. I don't think that my time was really much better than yesterday, but from a morale standpoint, it was a good day.

The day took us into the most vast area of sand than I've ever seen. "Incredible beauty in absolute nothingness" was the term that came to my mind. But in all of this nothingness... there were butterflies. How they got here, and why, seems to be the big question amongst us all. They would flutter around the pink flags marking the course, thinking I suppose they were flowers.

Once we crossed through about 4 miles or so of this ocean, we began climbing a Dragon's back of sand-dunes. Up and down this razor back ridge of... yes, you've guessed it.... sand.

Oh and I got to spend a few moments scratching the ears of a camel. That was pretty cool.

Tomorrow should be another 30 odd KM day, starting out in more sand, and then maybe hardening up (the ground) towards the end of the day, and apparently ending at an Oasis, from which we will have unlimited water from a spring to do a wash before the big day.

I've gotten a few pics (my card is nearly full) but the staff photog is everywhere from the gore of the med tent to the night campfire.... to the Ocean of Sand.

Love you Hon. Kiss the kids for me.

Peace, KCP

Some photos, posted temporarily, from the racing website for those of you with dialup... Ken will have more when he's done.

runners (I think Ken is to the left, about 4th in and in the middle row with the tan cocky hat and quirky grin.)
white desert & stage2 in white desert
camels2.jpg & camel.jpg
rocks
stage2

You are nailing it Right On. Yes, the GAO and CBO (Congressional Budget Office) asked why is it costing so much each year and fatalities. We had our Best and Brightest Leaders put together the NFP with the assumption that those leaders would be around to implement the plan. Congress wants and needs numbers that mean something. Remember, they want to deliver stuff back to the home district besides smoke, mirrors, a shell and no pea.

The group that put the NFP together moved on and the New Chief said, "Can Do". Instead of re-assembling that group to develop a FPA and the IFPM, we got all new players. No ownership. Got to deal with other pending issues in land management. Now almost 5 years after several attempts to jump start these programs, there are another set of players.

Who's taken ownership? The only folks that I know are the ground pounders. They have done what has been asked of them with less and have gone beyond the call of duty. Forcing lunch, cutting staffing, reducing funding, consolidation, reprogramming, etc...... What a way to run a Land Management Agency. You want to find waste and abuse? Go to the top and work your way down.

Hugh, We came along during a much simpler time. It's "Complex" now.

-=RADAR=-

Spy planes, computers play key firefighting roles
www.pe.com
By KIMBERLY TRONE
The Press-Enterprise

Flying at 60,000 feet, a large unmanned jet loaded with computers and high-tech cameras has played a major role in helping fire officials from Lake Arrowhead to the Mexico border combat Southern California's wildfires.

The Global Hawk, about the size of a Boeing 737, is part of a fleet of at least five military reconnaissance aircraft that since Oct. 23 have been transmitting images used to find hot spots and assess damage.

The fleet also includes a Vietnam War-era U-2 spy plane and another unmanned aircraft, NASA's Ikhana

The planes, equipped with infrared cameras, GPS units and digital imaging computers, will be used to scout potential landslide areas once the fires are out.

Similar aircraft were used after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as well as such natural disasters as the 2003 Cedar Fire in San Diego County and Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

But in natural disasters, they've never been used to the degree they are now being used in the war on the wildfires, said Cal Fire Capt. Mike Wilson, a mapping specialist and assistant fire marshal from Napa County. (click the link above for more)

The third stage of 23.6 miles (38.5 K) has been completed with Ken running it in 7:27:38. He accomplished this with the temps being 110+. Great going Ken!! Have you sent your email to Ken yet? It's easy and I know that Ken would love the encouragement. Tomorrow is the last "easy" stage (Stage 4, about 25 miles) before the runners start their 2 day stage of the course. Stage 5 is about 58 miles (~93 K) and competitors may race through the night into the next day.

Send those emails to help Ken get through this!

Lori

Ken had to get over massive sand dunes toward the end of today's run -- in the heat, no doubt it's quite wearing. Total distance he's run in the three stages so far: 71.2 miles (114K). Send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it again. It's incredibly simple to do. Join the support team. Simple. Ab.

Stage 3 complete!

Kenneth C. Perry Male <little USA flag> United States 06:47:56 08:47:59 07:37:28

Wendy

Go Ken, way to hang in there!
Donate to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

1. Political appointees to the Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)*,
2. Political appointees to the Under-Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)**,
3. Political appointees to the Assistant Under-Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)**, and
4. Political appointees of the Agency Heads of USFS, FWS, NPS, BIA, and BLM ***, and
5. Senior Executive Service (SES) "employees" serving in key subordinate staff positions and having to answer to #'s 1-4 above and having SES requirements as part of their jobs.........
6. People being "groomed" for positions 1-5 (above) that have no clue about the complexities of the federal wildfire problem and program.... but have a chance of being salvaged as the Forest Service says, "The Greater Good".

FEMA did a great thing..... they put a firefighter and former fire chief in charge.

Lobotomy

* Usually attorneys. Many times, former campaign contributors, lobbyists, or heads of companies or corporations with a financial interest.

** Many attributes of the above but with less influence. Many have served as "Professional Staff Member" or analyst positions with either Senators or Representatives in key positions of "oversight", or those that helped in policy direction, or election activities.

*** Folks who were groomed for their positions and won't talk out when programs are circling the drain. They report to "*" and "**" above.

Those in positions #5 and #6 above have a chance to make a change and break the bureaucracy to meet the Agency missions..... the intent of Congress....... and the intent of the American people.

P.S. - Hugh, great to see you back talking about "Swiss Cheese" and in the community. I still disagree with you that the causal chain starts with the individuals act or omission though..... and HFACS isn't Swiss Cheese..... Dr. Reason's "Swiss Cheese" model was always intended to build a better 'cockpit'....... 'pilots' will always make human errors, AND IF the cockpit around them is inherently unsafe, dysfunctional, or not meeting the need of the flight mission...

On another note: Those who might be helping the kids cope with the socal fires, here are a couple of good resources:

Helping Children After a Wildfire, Tips for Parents and Teachers

Responding to Natural Disasters: Helping Children and Families. Information for School Crisis Teams.

Mellie

You've asked a timely question. As a retired Red Trucker, I think the Agency responsible for fighting fires should be a Fire Department with Resource managers as technical specialists, not vice versa.

You asked for opinion... in my opinion you saw such an Agency functioning last week in Southern California. The evacuation of almost a million people and the handling of Qualcomm Stadium was not an accident. In some areas, such as Los Angeles and Orange County, the local or County Government were able to provide services while in San Diego, CDF and local Fire Districts were the providers and on Federal land, the USFS and the Military lead the fight. The amalgamation of agencies is Southern California is a result of many years of working together on a common problem.

You're seeing a similar situation develop in the Reno/Tahoe area, where the Sierra Front organization is fighting more and more interface fires.

The leadership and many of the rank and file of the USFS has resisted change, but change is coming. Changing climate and populations will require different strategies and tactics. Other factors such as the introduction of OSHA or even Unionization will force change.

If the USFS or any of the Wildland Fire Agencies cannot change with the times, they will be forced out or into the second seat by an Agency capable of providing those services.

viejo

I don't think that having ANY PART of the Federal Government being "in charge" of a National Fire Department is wise.

• There are far too many different areas of this country with their own fuel types and inherent problems associated with them.
• Weather patterns are far too different for one part of the nation to understand what another's seasonal expectations are.
• The overwhelming bureaucracy that comes with such a tasking is self defeating and will gobble tax dollars for years prior to it ever becoming a reality.

Time, effort and funding would be better expended on having the State's recognizing each other's strength's AND weaknesses and adopting a nation wide mutual aid/training/response... but isn't that what ICS was supposed to be all about?

Some States have accomplished this but there are still far too many who chose to disregard the system and as such have fallen behind in their attempts at modernization.

Perhaps we should take the lessons learned from Katrina and DEMAND that all emergency agencies that serve the public's safety come up to date and adopt the recognized ICS.

Now THAT would be a good start for the Federal Government if it wants to help improve our nation's fire fighting forces.

COPTER 100

It would be interesting to see the original IFPM-created rating scale. The skew is likely inherent in complexity of the types of lands/locations the Forest Service oversees. I noticed the FS has the most units with 112 of the 383 units, the BIA has 87, the NPS has 70, the FWS has 68 and the BLM has 47. (My numbers are off by 1 unit too high, go figure.) Ab.

You ask what federal agency should be in charge;
I don’t see a good candidate.

• The Department of Homeland Security is a Franken-bureaucracy soon to collapse under its own weight and the weight of public expectation.
• FEMA is not and never was a response agency; it’s a funding vehicle.
• The USFS and BLM, with all due respect, are too … geographically defined to effectively fight interface fires.
• Local resources (I include paid, volunteer, and contract resources) are vulnerable to local politics which make it difficult to enforce consistent quality standards.

I’m going to display my local prejudices and say that the answer isn’t going to come from the federal level, not in terms of a firefighting force; the firefighting forces are going to have to be local, to have local awareness of conditions and politics.

I think that federal resources will have to come as supplementary resources, to ensure quick and efficient funding of local firefighting efforts, and to supply specialist personnel and equipment. Federal resources are also going to have to step in and ensure uniformity and best practices among interface departments.

Right now, the major force protecting best practices and standards for structural firefighting is the ISO, which is a private organization. NFPA approves equipment and writes best practices, ISO, through their rating system, enforces them. ISO ratings control funding, but most funding, through the current grant processes, comes as the result of self-reported behaviors. There is no federal fire department inspection apparatus. I think that would be a good first step; not a federal firefighting force, but a federal fire department administration, to enforce compliance with NFPA standards and ensure accurate reporting for funding purposes. I think that would go a long way to evening out the quality and interoperability of interface resources.

Nerd on the Fireline

P.S. I have escaped from academia and the Pacific Northwest and am now back in the corporate world, in the northern Great Basin. I see miles and miles of charred sagebrush on my way home from work every day, and I am very much looking forward to next summer. Here’s to the good fires…small, remote, just complex enough to be interesting and fought safely and efficiently with good friends and respected colleagues.

Glad you're back Nerd. Ab.

From White to Black
29-Oct-2007 04:18:51 AM [(GMT-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada); Tijuana]

Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007

, so Okay, we are still having difficulties with the satellite hook up, and I just lost a longer blog. So, I am going to make this fairly quick.

It's day 2. 26 miles today (21 yesterday). This place is absolutely incredible. They should have pictures and films on the website soon. It is HOT! And today there was no wind, so it was just brutal.

At check-point 2 one of the volunteers, a kid named Dave came up to me and said he had a message for me from Tom Harbor. Huh? Turns out they go to the same church. Small world...even in this never ending place.

I'm getting pretty banged up. Feet are going to be hamburger by the time it's all over, I'm sure. The quest now is simply to see the Sphinx. However I can get there.

I've got to let some of the other competitors get in the blog site, so I'll get back on soon.

I love you Hon. Kiss the kids for me.

Peace, KCP

Ken said to take messages from his blog, so I have. Ab.

• the SoCal Firestorm, about
• firefighting connected with natural resources and natural weather forces, about
• firefighting connected with ever-increasing numbers of structures on the interface that are their own fuel type, about
• the (potential) increase in frequency of fires associated with drought, bug kill and climate change (whether in the West or in GA) and about
• America's needs for an easy-to-mobilize, efficient interface structure and wildland firefighting force.

What would be the ideal firefighting force be that could provide for our emerging needs as a nation?

Specifically:

• What federal agency would those firefighters come under the auspices of?
• What systems would need to be in place so those forces & that agency could cut through the bureaucratic hurdles to fight fire on the interface of cities and communities across the country?
• What other federal, state, county and private forces -- like military aviation -- would we need to draw on at the drop of a hat?
• How would such cooperators be trained and equipped regarding communication, etc? Would military cooperators be required to have fire specialists on board?
• Would there be a branch of these fire forces that handled any large emergency? Is NIFC the best federal organization to be providing, training and funding fire forces that we are coming to need?

Most of you know my blood runs green and I come from a natural resources background before my stress psychology background, but I think we need to be asking and exploring answers to these questions.

At the moment, this is what's been going around in my head.
If we get off "turf" differences.
If we get off state or location differences.
If we get off politics and media and the blame game...

What would our ideal firefighting force or incident managing force look like? What can we do to create that?

Mellie

Ken stage 2

Kenneth C. Perry Male <American flag> United States 06:47:56 08:47:59

stage 2 was 26.1 miles, in the blistering heat!

Wendy

If you want to send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - just choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it again. It's incredibly simple to do. Join the support team. It's easy. Ab.

Ken has finished the second stage with a time of 8:47:59. Way to go Ken.

Don't forget to send those emails everyone!!!

I hear tell that the temps were really scorching on this stage. I guess it's a good
thing that Ken likes to run in the heat! :-)

Lori

Run, Ken, Run.
Donate to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

Radiant Heat vs Firebrands

Ab, here's a 9 minute video of several large houses -closely packed -going up in Green Valley on the Slide (Arrowhead area) fire.

It's clear that to the fire, houses are just another fuel type and that even a pile of firewood along the road or in the driveway is a potential problem for carrying flames. It's also clear that as the other videos showed, houses can withstand a lot more heat before igniting than human beings can. The photographer lets you know how hot it is and when he has to move back.

At some point a red engine comes in and the firefighters decide which house to try to save.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZEd7rD3Mw

roadrunner

(Sahara Desert, Egypt) The Sahara Race got underway today at 08h30 as 73 international competitors took to the sand in epic fashion -- camels yawping and drums beating – to start stage one of six of their 250-kilometer journey. Their first stage was a 21.5-mile-long leg that meandered across white stone bolder fields and long stretches of beige sand. (snip)

<one leading runner said> “It was good, especially to start, but then it got hot” (snip)

During the afternoon the racers each took their turn coming through the four checkpoints, then heading toward the finish line, with many running out of water during between the second and third sites due to the excessive heat. (snip)

“It’s not like we train for this sort of thing in the UK with our weather,” said Crispin, who took fifth overall, sitting in the new camp which has been relocated to the heart of the White Desert. “It was hot out there.”

It is easy to email Ken. I did.
I hope he has electrolytes to mix with his water.

Can anyone point Ken out in this photo of Sahara Racers? Where's Ken?
(for comparison, here's Ken leaving socal with all our pledges/donations)

Mellie

From Wendy:

Ken finishes stage 1

> From the leader board: Ken finished the first leg (I don't know how many
miles it was!) and is in 35th place. Keep sending in those emails!

www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14

35 Kenneth C. Perry M United States 06:47:56 status: active

Good news, Wendy and Lori. Readers, if you want to send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link above.

There's a dropdown menu - just choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it. It's incredibly simple to do. It would be great if we sent him a bazillion emails tonight and every night. Motivation counts for a lot in the desert and on the fireline.

I looked and here's the poop on mileage for Stage 1:
21.9 miles // 35 kilometers

Run, Ken, Run! Ab.

I wonder how long it will take IFPM to also go the way of the Dodo Bird, much like FPA. Both programs and associated models never came from the wildland fire community. Both programs added to the confusion and eventual bankruptcy of the federal wildland fire program.

The IFPM complexity exercise was used to determine minimum grade levels. Having worked through that for my unit I would be very surprised that most of the federal land management units in the west did not rate as medium or higher. I can't access the IFPM web site (FS systems appear to be down) but I recall that what lead to this was the need to have highly skilled "wildfire" management organizations for the federal land management agencies. This was identified as a critical need for firefighter safety following the South Canyon fire. The 14 key positions were identified by the "wildfire" management staff of the federal agencies. These were the same people that wanted to use S-courses for college credit. Unfortunately the agencies overstepped their bounds and where trumped by OPM on the S-course issue (who rightly or wrongly has authority over such matters) .

While congress ended FPA, it also said "Try again" and has not relented in its mandate to the federal agencies to come up with a common budget allocation system. One briefing paper I saw said congress wanted a system on line for March 2008. Current options they are using; 1 a system developed by the USFS, 2 another developed by the BLM 3 a hybrid of either of these two or 4 a completely different critter.

FPA was a train on a track to oblivion many of the folks out at the local and regional level knew it. It took 3 years (and millions of $'s) before reality stopped that train.

IFPM continues to cause consternation but I think history will show that for the most part it was a positive step. It will continue to evolve and as it runs into realities. I still predict the labor lawyers will make out very well when the 2009 deadline hits.

FPA and IFPM may evolve but they will not go the way of the Dodo.

Side note - Thursday afternoon resource orders for engines made it all the way to eastern area. Don't recall that happening before in October.

Midwest FMO

Normbc9

--- RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl @ yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:15:19 -0700

---------------------------------

Stage 1, Oct. 28, 12h40: Andrew Murray of Scotland
crossed the finish line in first place under 4 hours.
Sandra McCallum of Canada placed first in the women's
division. All but four have now crossed the finish
line (the rest are expected shortly). [Satellite
communications were down for the majority of the day,
but are expected to be fully operational on Stage 2.]

Donate to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

Narrative

A wildland fire was reported near Santiago Canyon and Silverado Canyon at 1755 on 10/21/07. .........

The whole thing is posted on the hotlist...
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=12387#post12387

Interview with Jack Cohen, Fire Sciences Researcher, Fire Sciences Lab, Missoula, Mt.
Radiant Heat Versus Firebrands (embers)
Very interesting. Ab.

Inside the Running Springs Fire
This is on Wilderness Rd near Hiway 18.
Choking smoke, searing heat, zero visibility.
Mandatory evacs in this area really are warranted. Without protective fire gear this would be deadly.

Running Springs, California, early Tuesday October 23 2007.

Video at
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJlhdaAuTvE

Story at
http://apocheirs.blogspot.com/

The complexity analysis related to and completed for IFPM not FPA. Units
were either low, mod or high. I think all R-5 forests were classified as high.
I cant recall a complexity analysis development (low mod or high) with FPA.
However it's been a year since I pushed the any FPA buttons.

Letterman

Burned firefighter anticipated dying
www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20071027-9999-1n27fighters.html

Good article. Only part that doesn't quite jive with my notes from e-mailer is that the FS helo pilot (H-538) that flew out the 3 burned firefighters and 2 residents didn't find Pikop later, although he did transport him. Another firefighter found him. My best wishes for recovery. It is good to see a picture of Andrew. Ab.

I may be incorrect. I do not have my notes available, but if the complexity analysis was any
part of the the program that was supposed to replace NFMAS, it was a costly, dismal failure.

Mellie

Blazes on the New Frontier

By Steve Pyne
Sunday, October 28, 2007; Page B01

It takes only a whiff of smoke for it all to return. Sensations deeper than memory. The streaks of flame. The throb of heat. The gusts of smoke, twisting white and black like exhausted whirlwinds. A rush of adrenaline that can blow your head off. A fatigue so profound that it can rearrange your chromosomes. The sense of a world in such commotion that it seems to slow.

The big fire.

Most fires aren't big, and most wildland firefighting is a world of routine jobs and small blazes. It's a life of coming to know a place through its fires as a naturalist might know it through its flowers or mammals. In the deep backcountry, away from lodges and roads, the chief skill is just finding the fire -- a smoking snag, a smoldering stump. Only if that first attack fails does the firefight scale up into a campaign that resembles nothing so much as the moral equivalent of war. It's an intoxicating life, full of flame and fortune.

(for more, click the link)

Still Out There as an AD

There was once a respected institution that protected public lands in Southern California called the US Forest Service. It had a premier firefighting force that was admired the world round. They stopped fires and saved lives.

How things have changed. It took longer than it did during the Cedar fire, but the finger pointers are at it again.

The US Forest Service is now blamed for causing all these huge wildfires by putting out the “little ones.” Shame on them! Didn’t they know they should have just let them burn until the flames were about to threaten some valuable asset?

“Because we've had fire suppression all these years, all we have left is huge areas of equally old chaparral,” said Michael Barbour, a professor at UC Davis. “That's why these fires are so big. There is no patch of recently burned chaparral to stop it,"

Odd isn’t it that huge portions of the Cedar, Paradise, and Otay fire scars from 2003 re-burned in the Witch and Harris fires in San Diego County this past week? Dang firefighters! If they just hadn’t suppressed all those grass fires over the past four years these flames would have been nipped in the bud. Wait! Most of that land was under municipal and state jurisdiction. So it’s the CDF’s fault for putting out all those little fires! Stupid little firefighters trying to fight fire.

“How much longer is this society going to continue to believe that they can stop fires with their Tonka toys?” says Richard Minnich, a geography professor at UC Riverside.

Tonka toys? Men and women risked their lives trying to save homes and lives over this past week. Signs on street corners say “Thank God for Firefighters!" And yet, some continue to heap disrespect on those whose only desire is to help others.

Thanks to quick thinking, government agencies pulled off some awesome evacuations in San Diego County. They had learned from the Cedar fire that wind-driven fires can prove to be very deadly.

"Some people believe that horrific brushland fires are wind-driven events. They are wrong,” says Tom Bonnicksen, a retired (looking for a new job) professor from A&M University.

The fact that repeated fires in the same area have caused ecological disasters throughout many areas in California shrublands is known by firefighters, but somehow has been missed by these professors.

"Science shows that brushlands are resilient, no matter how often fires burn or how hot the fire,” Bonnicksen said during another one of his enlightened moments. What kind of science is this guy looking at?

I for one am sick and tired of having professors who have never been on the fireline, much less bothered to check their conclusions with those who have, spitting out press releases and pandering to the press after every fire in order to get their name in lights. I’m sick and tired of hearing these professors bash the US Forest Service for doing its job over the years. And I’m sick and tired of hearing these professors twist events and science to conform to their pet theories.

I’ll really feel sorry for these guys if they spout off one their self serving, ego-gratifying, financially lucrative opinions about fire in a meeting I happen to attend in the future. My days for being diplomatic are over.

jimhart

Thanks Debbie. Ab.

--- RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl @ yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:45:32 -0700
>>
---------------------------------

Pre-Race, 10.26.07, 19h41: The athletes arrive at Camp
1 after a 7.5-hr drive through the desert!
Anticipation grows for an 8am start time!

Wendy is getting official emails from the group that organized and supports Ken's run. Excellent! Ab.

RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info@racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:30:42 -0700
>>
---------------------------------

Pre-Race, 10.26.07, 10:29am: 73 athletes completed
check-in and are boarding a bus for the Sahara Desert.
Race starts tomorrow!

RUN KEN RUN! Donate to Ken's run. Donations go to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated. Hop in and contribute, folks.

We need the WFF. Bad things happen to good people. "There but for the grace of god (or the fates) go we." Our families deserve to have their way smoothed, heaven forbid, if such an event occurs. (I just wrote the response to the post below, which certainly brings the reality home to me...) Ab.

Morning,

I'm still on my crusade to get the WFF info out to the public for donation solicitations.
In reading "they said", you reference knowing Al and that he now works for NBC News SW Bureau.

Would it be possible to ask HIM to spread the word?

Good luck, keep up the great job.

PS - Are there ANY general updates that can be provided on the condition of the burned firefighters? Initial reports said critical, with inhalation burns. Don't need/want names - just concerned & hoping for some good news...

Thanks

capellocpa

Hi capellocpa, thank you for getting the word out in support of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (WFF). Thanks also to Sbrrymom. I'll try to reply to your emails today.

Regarding our burned CalFire comrades, you're not the only ones asking. Here's what I know.

I did hear from some firefighter friends that the four that were burned over on the Harris fire were transported to the UCSD burn center.

One female and one male are critical condition with lung burns. They were in induced coma to allow best healing. I believe they've been taken off the coma-inducing drug, perhaps yesterday or the day before. I would like to know how they're doing now.

The other two who are not critical but will be a time healing... One (Capt) has 1st degree burns to his face and 2nd degree burns to his hands. The other, a firefighter who has worked as a firefighter for less than 6 months, has 2nd degree to parts of his face and 1st degree to back, elbows, legs. My thoughts and prayers are with them and with those who helped rescue.

Our great thanks to the WFF for its presence and constancy in support. Kudos to CalFire which does a great job with supporting their own and the families as well.

Ab.

I have been with the fire community since 1974 as a forest service fire fighter, prevention and recreation tech, currently a member of one of the CIIMTs. I did not work the Firestorm of 2007 in southern ca this time because I did not want to lose my house a second time. I was under mandatory evacuation for sometime, but refused to let it happen again and did everything I could to save it, and it worked.

Now to the meat of the subject. We all sing the praises of the fire fighter, but nothing is said of the dispatchers of CNF and Monte Vista, I had 2 scanners working non-stop for 4 days. The people of dispatch did an outstanding job of reporting and organizing an attack on several incidents at the same time. Good job and may you get some much needed rest before the next siege.

A Dollar Short and a Day Late

Thanks to all the Dispatchers out there, often unrecognized and under-appreciated, but ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to the firefighting effort, and often de facto playing the role of IC in their allocation of resources in the breaking stages of IA. Ab.

No kidding. Good job. And thanks Kellie for your photo to be in the 2008 Wildlandfire Calendar. Ab.

The fire made pretty good runs today. The on-shore flow is in full alignment with horribly dry and dead fuel beds (Oak Croak and drought) and steep canyons. The containment box currently set is rather large. They even have double letter divisions being set up. There is a mild off-shore event possibly coming Sunday and Monday which could blow this back down canyon at the affected residential neighborhoods. Santiago Canyon residences had a mandatory evac order today and the Holy Jim Canyon could become problematic if the wind event materializes.

As of now, it is heading uphill trying to slop over into Riverside County above the city of Corona and communities south. The biggest problem with this is the history of these hills and incredibly unpredictable winds. There have been firefighter fatalities on the “Elsinore Front Country” due to these conditions. So firefighter safety has been a huge issue for the command team and they are taking it very, very seriously. They actually pulled all units off the main divide road (divides Orange County from Riverside County at the top of the mountain) last night due to extreme fire conditions and basically said, we will see what the damage looks like in the morning.

That is it for now…

CC

Hotlist on Santiago Fire

Lobotomy, the visit you paid to the burned firefighters from the Harris fire at the UC San Diego Burn center is truly appreciated by us. The WFF is an organization that shares what it has when it can to our brothers and sisters who may be well cared for but the personal touches like this are sure a morale builder for those injured and their families. ALSO, to those who saw to it that those four firefighters were sent directly to a burn center; KUDOS for a job well done and some very accurate decision making! Your quick thinking hastened the qualified specialized medical attention they needed so badly. If we all stick together and support each other we can all make a difference.

Thank you WFF!

Normbc9

These were the CalFire firefighters who were burned over on the Harris Fire. Thank you for visiting them. Ab.

Haw Haw on the Hawaii. Ab.

Are you saying indirectly that you think all the South Zone forces will be reduced? Ab.

Could we put this message from Wendy on TheySaid? I think it would be great for Ken
to see all the support he has out there.

Thanks,
Lori
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you know, Ken is in Egypt right now, just a couple of days away
from the start of his big 150 mile run through the Sahara Desert
with Racing the Planet!!

The runners are able to receive emails each night, received at each
camp and then printed off and handed out (kind of like getting a
care package at summer camp!!). Here is the link to send Ken an
email:

www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14

There's a pull down menu - just choose his name and send him a
note!! I think it would be great if he could gets lots and lots of
emails each evening. I know it would be very motivating and mean A
LOT to him!!

So send Ken a daily email!! Starting Sunday October 28 and ending
Friday November 2 - big stacks of emails for Kenneth!!

I'm no longer working on fires but like to hear what is going on from the ones who do, and see those pictures. Those flame lengths in SoCal were amazing. Also just happened on the fire shelter story tonite on NBC news, that's also amazing to see pictures carried nationally of shelter deployment, put my heart in my mouth.

Also tonite the PBS report was great, with the story including the morning briefing and giving credit to the extensive amount of information such as archeological resources to protect, and other info such as comm freqs (my old job) that were shared to crew bosses etc.

Good to see the attitude of professionalism, safety and enthusiasm continues.

Call me "Piemaker".

Glad you visit Piemaker. Heres the Hotlist thread on the Santiago Fire Deployment. Ab.

Another way the rich are different: 'concierge-level' fire protection

www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-richfire26oct26,0,3352683.story?coll=la-home-business

When Southland clients' multimillion-dollar homes were threatened, insurer AIG dispatched crews with fire retardant.
By Kimi Yoshino, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 26, 2007

RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. -- Bryce Carrier's cellphone rang at 3 a.m.: Help! The fire is almost to my house.

Carrier hopped into his heavy-duty red Ford F-550 and sped to northeast Poway, dodging fallen eucalyptus and heading straight toward the wind-whipped blaze. He arrived to find flames marching up an embankment toward the multimillion-dollar home.

Yanking out the hose in the back of his truck, he began applying Phos-Chek fire retardant along the perimeter of the property, the shrubs and the roof. When the flames hit the milky white liquid, they stopped.

Another home saved.

Carrier is a certified firefighter, but he doesn't work for a government agency. He's an employee of Firebreak Spray Systems, which partners with the insurance company American International Group Inc. to protect the mansions of the moneyed.

Click the link to read more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One article that summarizes the media hype over aircraft, as though that was the answer... Rules exist for a reason.
Firescribe

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21478621/
Bureaucracy hampered initial Calif. fire efforts
Rules kept firefighting aircraft on ground as devastating blazes took hold

In 2005 California Forest Service firefighters comprised about 28.5% of all federal firefighters.

CB, California Forest Service Firefighters do a heck of a lot of firefighting for California and for the nation. (Note that Pincha-Tulley's team (Ranch Fire) and Oplinger's team (Buckwheet Fire) also supported hurricane Katrina victims two years ago. Where did they come from? They came up through the ranks in California.)

You all have a right to be proud, as do CalFire firefighters, and the rest of our hardworking, firefighting civil servants from all agencies.

Thank you!

Mellie

Ab,

NBC Nightly news is working on a story for tonight on the burnover involving 12 members of the Orange County Fire Authority on the Santiago Fire. Incident occurred approx 1505 Monday 22 Oct.

We interviewed personnel involved in the burnover and the LA Times photographer who happened to be on the road below the site. She took a number of astonishing pictures of the event.

FYI
Al Henkel

Ab replied:

Yep, doesn't surprise me. We had names and info out here on the hotlist early on and had a number of inquiries:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2253 Is it your NBC piece?

Al replied:

Yes. I also shot a lot of the material from Poway and Rancho Bernardo. Thanks.

Ab comment about Al Henkel: I "met" Al in 2001 when he was a photo journalist for the Modesto Bee. His son was a Groveland Hotshot. Al did the basic firefighter training and went out with the crew on occasion, if I remember correctly. Al provided some very nice photos then that have since been used by many in this community for training powerpoints, etc. Then he retired... and now he's "Bureau Chief/Producer NBC News, SW Bureau".

I'll be watching your show Al. Thanks for the heads up.

Seems as though there were SEVERAL SITUATIONS in which firefighters had to shelter in place or deploy fully or partially their fireshelters!!

Luckily everyone is safe.

Be safe out there!!
Know your 10's & 18's
Fight fire aggressively but ALWAYS provide for SAFETY FIRST!!

CM

Readers you can see a little version of the picture CM references on a link (says PHOTO) via the hotlist HERE.

CA-ORC-Santiago - (URGENT UPDATE)

As of 1:10 PM 10/26/07, the fire is within one hour of Silverado Canyon.
Orange Co Sheriff Deputies are attempting to evacuate remaining residents.

The Satellite Maps show hot spots all long the southern side of Silverado
and mostly at the eastern end of the canyon.

It's SO smoky where I am I can see the actual fire but the satellites and
cell phone calls are confirming the situation as well.

Be safe! Ab.

• Let's all remember that CalFire is not single-handily fighting every fire in California,
• Let's remember that they work 24 on 24 off and the feds (Forest Service, BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA) work 16 on 8 off. This means that in a 4 day period federal crews put in 64 hours of suppression while Calfire is on the line for 48hrs.
• Let's also not forget about the local/municipalities and groundpounders from all over the West and across the US. I have seen engines from New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Washington, Oregon and I have seen federal hotshot crews from all over the country. Everyone is working long hours and doing what we can to give residents something to come home too.
• Let's not praise one agency over another.
• Let's not point fingers at one agency's tactics vs another's.

We need to work together because this is where we gather our strength and our true complimentary abilities come out.

Please all of you be safe, we have turned a corner but this is by no means over and the chance will remain for large fires and life threatening situations.

Small side note.
Daniel Yanez a fire fighter for the USFS Cleveland National Forest lost his home while on the lines trying to protect others. Please send good thoughts and prayers and remember that WFF and Redcross are great places to donate.

CB

Hi there CB. I watched the Gov and the Pres yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised when, before his speech, the Pres shook hands with a whole string of Forest Service crewmembers standing in front of a green engine -- Inyo NF E-32 (if more numbers, couldn't see the first one). Only after that did the Pres and his entourage go on to shake hands with other firefighters. The videographer did "good" in capturing the Pres shaking hands with FS groundpounders in front of the green engine. It was the first time I've seen that in all my years of watching. So in spite of, or maybe because of, the jockeying for position you experienced, the FS forces were acknowledged. CalFire, Orange County, LA County, Ventura Co, all cooperators, we need all of us working on containing these fires together.

I'm curious if anyone has a statistical breakdown on the number of fed and other agency wildland firefighters: Forest Service vs other fed agencies nationally; Forest Service in CA vs FS across the country vs other fed agencies; Fed vs states (CalFire, ODF, WA-DNR, etc. And how many private sector wildland firefighters. Sometimes I wonder who we are exactly. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOMENT   OF  SILENCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-57 Remembered
1200 hours

Thank you.

Memories:
www.engine57memorial.org/thecrew.html and
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/engine57.htm
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/eng57/dietrich-walker.htm

"This high performance team ... all kept working for the safety of the public and to raise the bar of professionalism for the United States Forest Service.

Our challenge now is to honor the memory of our fallen brothers, Mark, Jess, Jason, Pablo and Danny. To do this we're all going to have to work a little bit harder and be a little bit better, because Engine Company 57 raised the bar for all of us…..forever."

Norm Walker at the memorial service.

Each of us honor them by raising the bar in what we do every day.

Be safe.

Ab.

I have heard the same behind the scenes, that the work-rest guidelines have been stretched. But what do you do in a 36-48 hour IA situation with 60mph winds,? You certainly don't lie down for a nap. Resources were not available to relieve firefighters in the middle of the firefight. No doubt, other guidelines that were violated have to do with incident complexity and the fact that fires can go from Type 4 to Type 2 even Type 1 complexity in less than an hour under Santa Ana conditions with multiple agencies responding, public evacs, etc; Type 4 or 3 ICs are not redcarded to manage Type 2 or 1 complexity fires. But what do they do? Say, "oops, this is too complex for my level of training, I'm out'ta here" and walk away? That would be irresponsible as well and people could die. If someone was injured or died on their watch under the old "rules" applied by DOJ and OPM and OSHA, the IC would have to pony up big bucks for legal fees to defend him or herself. To me that's de facto "guilty" if you can't afford to prove your innocence.

There have also been problems with communication:. For example, couple of days ago only one 800 mhz unit was provided to an entire crew on the Santiago Fire and the batteries went dead after several hours. If I'm not wrong, there should be one unit for each 5 firefighters, has to do with span of control. Communications is key. LCES

And then the media is yelling that CalFire should relax standards and not have a CA Fire Agency observer flying with military units... Gim'me'a'break. First, military unit radios do not work on the same frequencies as fire command. We either all need to be on the same freq or we need a person along who can communicate. Secondly, some military air resources have worked fighting fire in CA. Some have not. How do military pilots know where and when to lay retardant or water? What if they inadvertently hit groundpounders?

There was one good interchange on the news last night. The CNN reporter discussing air resources kept trying to get the military general in charge of co-operating air resources to state something in a way that would assign blame to CalFire. The general repeated 3 or 4 times with HIS OWN careful wording and added that CalFire firefighters are the experts in the firefighting arena. Good for him. On another note, it's no wonder that we don't have all the recommendations from the 2003 Blue Ribbon Panel tied down. Everyone, especially the media, but also politicians, presumes they're the expert.

CNN has really fallen in my estimation. Anderson whats-his-name's "keeping them honest segment", what bullsh*t! The public hears that same cr*p over and over again and in their minds, it comes to be true. It's a form of brainwashing and they do us all a disservice. Firefighters and firefighter supporters, we need to keep pulling together because it's not done, the fires are still burning. Let's not be distracted because of the "blaming climate" the media is creating. (I think Anderson Cooper's producers would have been happier if Qual Comm was like The Superdome. Tell the story, make it negative, get the emotional response and hook the viewers... Sad.)

There will be lessons to be learned to further our readiness for this type of firestorm event in the future, in spite of the media and politics. Compared to 2003, I think we're doing much better. And we can do better still.

Congrats to Pincha Tulley's CIIMTeam 3 and Oplinger's CIIMTeam 4 on the Ranch and Buckweed fires, respectively. It's nice to have successes under our belt. Now for the rest. I wish you all success!

Carry on! Set the bar high.

Ab.

"If at all possible, I encourage every one to avoid being anonymous and become very active in the defense for Ellreese Daniels. He deserves it and so do all of the rest of us who continually put our families in jeopardy every time we respond to the call for action."

Ellreese Daniels isn't a criminal. He might be a f-up with a cloud that follows him with poor personal decisions and actions, but he didn't do anything that was criminal negligence or homicide in any actions in relation to the Thirtymile fire.

Hopefully he has a good attorney and friends supporting him. Ellreese got two big "strikes" against my continued support over the last year.... both strikes personal..... drugs and abuse of others.....something I despise....... so far, he has been cleared of both....... my patience and support wears thin.....

In any case, Ellreese didn't commit a crime during Thirtymile......

Rogue Rivers

"Winter conditions of snow covered fuels require that the ERC and fuel moisture graphs be temporarily discontinued. The graphs for this page are generated by FireFamily Plus. Weather station data imported into FireFamily Plus during the months of snow covered fuels does not contain all required information to generate accurate NFDRS outputs. This is due to missing Wet Fuels flag information in the imported FWX data and the FireFamily Plus program not being programmed to utilize the information imported using the FW9 format. Accurate values can be obtained from the Weather Information Management System (WIMS) - if the daily observation represents the snow covered fuels by properly "forcing" the Wet Fuels flag entry."

It appears the problem has been fixed in SoOps as the ERC and fuel moisture graphs are being updated again. Hopefully the "wet fuels" confusion doesn't need further explanation. In any case, the "wet fuels" forcing correction should never be applied to areas that do not receive snowfall...... and especially never applied to rainfall events, or days with increased RH.

I recommend that a SoOps Intel group be formed and chaired by the Intel Officer. Each individual forest, district, park, and CAL FIRE unit would be represented by their local fire behavior and fuels experts, and provide local expertise and knowledge in preparedness and response planning. A representative from NWS-San Diego, NWS-Oxnard, NWS-Phoenix, NWS-Las Vegas, NWS-Hanford, and NWS-Monterey, and a representative from the Riverside FWU would also participate.

On a bi-weekly basis, a fire behavior and fuels outlook would be generated with a minimum of additional work. The benefits would be an increase in firefighter and community safety, a better handle on fire preparedness needs in the local area, and a tool to quantify required staffing and/or draw down levels to support other areas or regions during periods of reduced fire hazard.

Lobotomy

From the Director:

All Cal Fire facilities will fly their flags a half staff today in memory of the crew of
Engine 57. A moment of silence will be observed a 12 noon today.

A little belated, however I thought I would follow up.

Vicki Jackson, thank you, very well done. We will be silent at 1200. It would of been great to hear from our FAM Director, however your direction seems to be the best for the families, the Service and employees.

Just a Hotshot - Your not just a Hotshot. More important than being a Hotshot is being a good person and someone who cares about other people. I'm sure your good at all three. Impressive write up. Just to close on your post, please do me a favor. Next time your on the Internet do a google search, type in: "MLK and things that matter": Find the match, think about what you just discovered and live by it for the rest of your life.

Letterman

So, "They Said" posters, the media and everyone else is stuck on the monday morning QB'ing and
what if games. What if the Marines had been called earlier? What if we pre-positioned thousands
of resources? What if global warming caused the fires to get bigger? I say: What if we had the
death penalty for arsonists? Most if not all of the recent fires were arson. The public, firefighters,
law enforcement, and the media should be blaming the ones who started the fires in the first
place ,not the people who risk life and limb to try to stop these conflagrations.

And if you are against the death penalty for arsonists, maybe you would support stump breaking
them with a lit fusee. They deserve nothing less. Can you tell that I don't like them?

How many of you have ever seen an established Santa Ana wind driven fire stopped by mere humans,
with or with out air support. We catch them after the wind stops blowing or when the on-shore
rebound winds blow them back on themselves and the marine flow brings in the higher rh's. By the
way, that is when the backfires actually work.

Anyone else out there surprised to see G.W. not blaming Al-Queda for the fires?

Dan-O

Got a call from a firefighter on a crew on the Santiago fire today. He said about 20 FBI agents were carefully working all over the place at the 3 sites of origin. Always better to hold the comments and work the scene... Ab.

I just got off the phone with Ken, and he is in a taxi on his way from the Cairo airport to his hotel in Giza! He asked me to write into They Said for those who might be interested in his adventures so far.

It's 1 am Friday morning in Egypt, and I could hear cars screeching, horns honking - it was so loud!! He said it has been the wildest taxi ride of his life (Ken: "Chr*st, we just about hit someone"). Seems to be a place of 24 hour a day action. He said his driver looks like an ex-jumper he knows (John Hawkins?). The taxi is a Fiat and comes tricked out with horns AND a siren! He said most cars have no headlights, don't stay between the lines, and there are people walking right down the middle of most streets.

The flight from LAX left about an hour late, and he only had a 2 hour layover in Heathrow scheduled, so it was a bit tight getting to his flight to Cairo. But he made it, despite leaving his iPhone on the first plane and being paged to return to the gate to claim it. Ken told the gate person he only had about 45 minutes to get to his next flight, and did the guy think he would make it, and the guy said, "Can you run?" Uhh...good thing he can!! The plane to Cairo was a 777 which made Ken very happy.

When he arrived in Cairo, he was spotted by some other guys doing the desert run. I think they're probably easy to identify!! They offered to give him a ride to his hotel but they were going to different places so Ken had to take the wild taxi ride he is currently on. He sounds great and said he slept a lot on the plane, so he's not that tired. Tomorrow (Friday) is pack check day, when the runners have their packs completely checked to make sure they have the proper gear and enough calories in their food.

Ken is getting great cell phone coverage with his iPhone!! I'm sure the bill will be outrageous but it's great to be able to talk to him and hear the excitement in his voice. Nothing seems to shake him, even when things are going wrong. He just said it is all part of the adventure!

Wendy

Ab note. There is no link. I think you have to sign up for their newsletter: Environment and Energy Daily: the best way to track Congress. Here's the beginning of the report...

FORESTS: Calif. fires could spark changes to Forest Service budget
Dan Berman, E&E Daily senior reporter

Southern California's latest spate of wildfires could be enough to convince lawmakers to develop a new system of funding for federal fire suppression programs, leaders of the House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee said yesterday.

Subcommittee Chairman Norm Dicks (D-Wash.) is developing legislation that would set a limit on the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management's fire costs and hand the rest over to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Unlike hurricanes, fire suppression is handled out of appropriated dollars, and in the past the agencies have shifted funds from other programs -- including hazardous fuels reduction -- to pay for firefighting.

"Taking the money away from the Forest Service and BLM out of their accounts totally disrupts the management of the agencies that are already underfunded," Dicks said. "It just doesn't make sense."

Last year, the federal government spent nearly $2 billion fighting fires on about 10 million acres nationwide. As of last week, the federal government spent just over $1.7 billion fighting wildfires, but that was before the Southern California events, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.

For fiscal 2008, the House and Senate appropriations measures would provide $859 million for the Forest Service and $294 million for the Bureau of Land Management, a figure based, as always, on the 10-year average of fire suppression costs.

The Forest Service devotes more than 45 percent of its budget to fire suppression and preparedness, compared to 13 percent in 1991 and 25 percent in 2000.

"We need to budget for these types of situations so we're not shortchanging the service," said the ranking member of the Interior spending panel, Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.)

sign up to read the rest. It is very interesting... Ab.
Fair Use Disclaimer

I am amazed at what I watch on the news these days. TIP: You can't effectively "direct attack" the head of a fire driven by Santana winds in chaparral but a "turn and burn" is likewise not an option. To quote Jack R. Tucker from "Touch of Fire" I would have gathered my fears and run but someone else would have paid the price…"

BACKFIRE, people! Burn out that fuel between you and the brush. When did we forget how to use fire to fight fire and start relying on pumpers, nomex and "shake and bakes" instead of brains and tactics? I watch vid after vid of crews letting the fire burn full force into the houses/equipment/whatever as they stand and wait the turn on the water, upwind, into a million BTU's. Doesn't work very well, does it? So why keep doing it?

In defense of Chip Prather's (He was my fireman about a million years ago) comments on air support, if you'll remember OCFD got left twisting in the wind (literally) on the Laguna Beach fire about a decade ago. That was his baby and he kept calling for air support and getting none. As I recall, it turned out that there were ANG C-130's sitting on the ground in Ventura or Pt. Mugu but they weren't allow to roll until all the contact equipment was committed, even the stuff coming from hours away. As a consequence, that fire ran full force into Laguna Beach neighborhoods and the rest, as they say, is history.

But this takes us right back to the above topic. BACKFIRE, people!! Burn out! Fire out! It isn't rocket science. It about as primitive as you can get (even the Aborigine's know how to do this) and is extremely effective as YOU choose the time and place the that you get to deal with the fire and even that at a much-reduced burn rate..

David uh thuh dzzrt

Ab snipped and will copy and paste the entire content to Mr. Carson...

I'm not sure how you prepare for a wind event of that
magnitude, Category 1 and 2 Hurricane force winds. Not
gale force or severe gale force winds, let me say
again Category 1 and 2 Hurricane force winds. You
could have brought down a thousand engines and 1000
aircraft, and I don't think you could have changed
things much, if at all. If you where standing at the
point of origin at the time of ignition, hose charged
bulldozers on site ready to start pushing, you
probably couldn't have made a difference.

So how do you prepare?

You have your law enforcement ready for
evacuations, you have pre identified locations for
evacuees, your local media is kept up to date on
changing conditions, your equipment is staffed,
resources out of the danger zone are kept fully
staffed and ready to roll, your dispatch centers are
communicating with each other. It sure sounds like a
success story to me, even the biased media who is always
looking for someone to blame are reporting what a
remarkable effort it has been by all levels of
government. The communications and coordination have
been remarkable. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there
have been breakdowns and missed communications and
areas that can be improved, but that is and always
will happen on a disaster of this magnitude. Stop
pointing and saying they weren't prepared, look for
the lessons to be learned, fix the broken, spread the
news on what was done correctly. Almost a million
people evacuated, hurricane force winds, hundreds of
thousands of acres scorched, spotting miles ahead of
the main fire, 1500 plus homes lost, what a terrible
event, but I take pride in the way I saw my agency
respond along with all the cooperators and the
strength of the California citizens bonding together
and help each other. Prepared?

Sign me.
Supporting the cause, and looking for lessons to be learned

I just made our pledge for Ken's run. This is such an amazing attempt and when he completes it, will be the most amazing feat ever. What can possibly be next? I can't understand how anyone DOESN"T pledge! So, all those not in So.Cal. currently fighting these record making fires, get on board! Who do you all think is available to help those 40+ firefighters who are injured? The Wildland Firefighter Foundation, that's who. And they can't continue to do it without your help. For those injured, their families, for Ken, and for all of us who have benefited from the many gifts the foundation has to offer, please make your pledge or donation now. We all thank you.

Heather's Mom

P.S. to all those working on the massive SoCal fires (including Heather's husband). Thanks, stay safe and don't toast your toes.....

I am aware of no site that has the entire news briefing. It was on myfoxla.com (internet wildfire coverage) as it occurred. A number of people reading the Hotlist who had fast internet capability saw it then. If you find it, please let us know. Ab.

In an effort to help out our So Cal customers, friends and all those who have come to the aid of So Cal firefighting endeavor, we will pay the shipping costs for orders going to So. Cal. It is effective for the duration of the fire, shipments to So Cal only.

Thank you,
Cristy Alexander

Check their ad in the Classifieds. Ab.

TX Lobo

Run, Ken, Run!

The 12 deployments were Orange County firefighters on the Santiago Fire on Oct 22 just before 1600 hours. I was getting so many inquiries and the little photo, that I put the appropriate posts in the Santiago Fire thread on the hotlist on a shelter deployment thread. It's here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2253

Normbc9

As I watch the news and read about the SoCal fires I get the sense that SoCal fire agencies were not prepared for this 2007 Santa Ana wind event?? I'm pretty certain that the weather forecast related to this wind event which normally gives about 3 days to prepare. The Santa Ana wind events are nothing new and they take out thousands of homes as we have all seen in the past. I realize the wind driven fires in SoCal are very difficult to stopped until weather patterns changes, but big time build up of resources will save homes and support the local firefighters. No one can say bad things about any of the "on the ground" and "in the air" structure protection and fire suppression efforts. They're unbelievable and have earned every right for praise. What I'm concerned about is - where they ready? That's the job of overhead fire personnel with the fire agencies involved. Did pre-staging take place? I hope yes. Or did they wait until the fires started and then scrambled for resources? I realize there are many homes to protect, but there are many resources in CA, Nevada and Oregon (agency and private) that could have been used in the pre-stage, rest up, and be ready to move quickly.

Concerned for "Next Time"

Beth Lynn and I just got home from taking Ken to Los Angeles to start the next stage in his latest adventure! It is an understatement to say he is excited. This is truly the trip of a lifetime for him, in so many ways.

As we were driving down the 14, Lori Greeno called to wish Ken bon voyage, with the promise of some of her divine homemade cookies upon his return! It was great to hear from her - as usual her timing was perfect. We love and appreciate you Lori!

Last night, I printed off the list of pledges and donations, and here's a picture of Ken with them and then tucking them into a pocket in his backpack (the one he will carry through the desert). Those of you who made a pledge or donation... thank you. I can't tell you how many times a day he checks that list. It is the biggest reason he is doing this, and I hope you know that you are with him, in that little mesh pocket! You will motivate him and keep him moving forward. Have no doubt he will finish - running, walking, or crawling... he WILL cross that finish line.

I also want to thank Ryan and Steve for spending a great time last night around the kitchen table with Ken. I know you helped relieve his anxiety about the trip and this huge challenge in front of him!

Here are a few more pictures of Ken's departure - loading up in our garage, saying goodbye at the airport, and then the last one I took of him as he walked away. Thank you again for sharing in the excitement of the preparation for this big day. Kenneth, no one is more proud of you than I am.

Wendy

Thanks Wendy. I put the photos here; the beginning of another great Ken Perry story:
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/wff-ken07/run.htm I'll be adding to these as time goes on, I hope.

Ken called me on his way to the airport with you. Great to hear from him! He sounded excited and we finalized arrangements for me to keep the information flowing on the wlf.com site. What a great idea to run the Sahara Desert. Ab.

MAP and
hotlist collection of socal maps: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2241

Bay Area firefighters wait, less than patiently
www.sfgate.com/

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, and the
phone call. And thanks everyone for the support you
have given to Vicki and the WFF.

I'm waiting for Wendy to get home, so she can take me
to LAX. I'm actually excited about flying on a
747...Never done that. Cobras, Blackhawks,
PB-4Y....etc. But never a 747.

Check in on my blog and here for updates on how your
investment is doing. Talk at you in a week or so..

Peace, KCP

Boulder fires in 1970 (same time as Laguna fire) Started in Boulder Creek
and burned up the west side of Cuyamaca Peak and Middle Peak.
There was a fire on the east and south side of North Peak in 1955 for maybe
a thousand acres or so.

Another fire on the top of North Peak in 1971 (Thousand acres?). In 1968
the Pine hills fire burned about 10,000 acres in the Pine Hills area.
Inaja Fire in 1956 started on Inaja reservation (Pine Hills area) and
burned to Dunbar lane, El Capitan Reservoir.

Thats about all I know of in the Cuyamaca area, large fires anyway. There
were some large fires there in the early 1900's but I don't have good
knowledge of that history.

K. Joseph

Here are stats from FireDonkey and links to some photos of the beast from the wlf.com photo posted oh the hotlist forum. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=12181#post12181

I happen to be in San Diego visiting my Mom and saying Hi to old friends. I can tell you that these folks down here have done one heck of a job under unbelievable conditions. Aircraft have been useless because of wind speed and velocity until yesterday. I have seen engines here from Sacramento, Rocklin, Napa, Placerville and Phoenix and Prescott, AZ.

Most people seem to have ignored the 100 foot defensible space laws. In fact they should call it survivable space as there are no guarantees that anyone will be there to defend it, anyway the cities and counties and forests of this area need to enforce these laws, or an alternative would be for insurance companies to demand vegetation clearances to be at least comply with the current law or they would not insure the property. But if you have a 2 acre lot forget the 100 feet from the house use fire safe vegetation management for all land under your control. It can be made safe for most fires during most years. But it is a flammable planet and all terrestrial vegetation can burn under the right conditions. Fire also burns rock if you want to count volcanoes.

I was here shortly after the Fires of 2003 and I thought it would wake people up to the need for good survivable space, it is the law in CA why isn't it enforced in SD county and city. It is at the peril of firefighters that these laws are not enforced. Let alone citizens.

AnotherDave

We don't. Readers?
John, most firefighters who would have it are dealing with the current situation. Ab.

Next to this quote is a picture of a house in flames with significant aerial and ground fuels butting up right next to the home.

Can someone put this into context, is the frustration over the lack of structure protection efforts, or the lack of homeowner preparation?

Powderhound82

Based upon my 20+ years as an Type 1 Ops Chief, I would disagree, but that's not the thrust of this post.
Rather, I'd ask the Orange County Fire Chief that, given the fire-prone landscape that he's sworn to protect and the history of wildfires in that area over the past 20-30 years, the drought conditions, homes being built in the interface without generally accepted "Firesafe" construction and landscaping, and the repeated occurrence of Santa Ana wind conditions that affect all of Southern California causing a major competition for all available fire suppression resources: Chief, what have you done to prepare for such an event? Have you "gone public" asking for increased tax revenues from Orange County taxpayers to buy/rent/lease that aviation resources that you believe would have caught these fires? Have you told your County Commissioners and County Planners the fallacy of building homes in the WUI, given your county's long history of Santa Ana wind event wildfires? If not, why not?

Or, do you expect the citizens of Rhode Island, Alabama, Nebraska, Hawaii and the remainder of the other 49 States to indulge the Orange County building frenzy that is now bearing the foreseeable results of poor planning, poor decisions and poor funding by the locals involved?

Hurricanes in Key West; flooding in the Mississippi River flood plain; wildfires in Southern California: when are we going to make locals take reposonsibilty for their own actions, and the associated costs???

Aberdeen

Aberdeen, you need to have seen the whole interview to understand the full meaning of the Chief's one line taken out of context. He has been an advocate for all the logical options you mentioned. Please, quit kicking people doing their job when they're so tired they can't see straight. Give me a break. We're all tired. Ab.

I can hardly remember last week, so remembering the right decade
was a real stretch (this "getting old" stuff is for the birds). But I do
remember chatting with you the second day there (I think!!). Thx for
the correction!!

And for the reminder on what I think you are referring to as required
refresher training in GJT so I can get my lapsed red card back, yes, it will
be Year 3 and I'm going to lose my AOBD qual if I don't go out next year.
That indeed will be a watershed for me - not real sure if I've really left
it all behind and, judging by my avid re-interest in fire as evidenced by my
postings on the So Cal deal going down, I may see you in GJT next spring.

Ken Perry's inspiring good-bye message (scroll down a bit) really got the
emotion high for me this morning. I hope John Maupin and Dan Battreall are
reading this (they were in charge of my "12-step program" to leave fire
behind).

Everybody be cool and stay healthy. It sure ain't over yet.

Hugh

The Department of Justice unveiled a new strategy to streamline the claim review process and address the backlog issue related to the Hometown Heroes Survivor Benefits Act at a recent hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

The Hometown Heroes Act of 2003 states that the families of public safety officers who suffer a fatal heart attack or stroke while in the line of duty may qualify for survivor benefits under the Public Safety Officers’ Benefits (PSOB) Program.

Families of three fallen firefighters testified at the hearing, detailing the difficulties they faced in attempting to claim survivor benefits from the Department of Justice (DOJ). The result: two denied claims, one pending claim and a combined five years of delay.

In a statement issued at the hearing, Domingo Herraiz, Director of the Bureau of Justice Assistance which administers the PSOB program, vowed, “We have taken and will continue to take steps to decrease the time it takes for survivors to be given an answer on their claims.” Those steps include additional PSOB staff, a case management system that enables claimants to track the status of their case, outreach to public safety agencies and—most importantly—a plan to expedite the claims process.

As of October 4th, DOJ reported 202 pending cases, 21 approvals, 57 denials and 26 appeals. The department has been criticized for major delays in processing claims and for rulings that, in the words of Herraiz, are “too restrictive.”

Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT), Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, stated that the DOJ is “delaying implementation of the law and disregarding the clear will of Congress to grant surviving families death benefits in a timely, fair manner.”

Herraiz recently addressed the semi-annual meeting of CFSI’s National Advisory Committee regarding the issue. “I am not pleased with our progress over the last year,” stated Herraiz, who admits that the claim review process has taken longer than expected. “It’s time for me to accept responsibility. I can take charge of my organization and I will fix it,” he promises.

The department states that the initial backlog is the result of a complete revision of PSOB regulations following the implementation of the Hometown Heroes Act. The regulations were finalized in September of last year. DOJ maintains that most claims currently under review are waiting to receive additional evidence from the agency for which the public safety officer worked, causing additional delay.

Herraiz calls the internal issues at the DOJ a long-standing problem—one that he plans to resolve. “You will see a big change. In three months, I guarantee a difference with the Hometown Heroes claims. We can do better and we will do better.”

In an attempt to enact these changes, DOJ released two policy memorandums relating to the processing of survivor benefit claims. The memos, signed by Director Herraiz, clarify the definitions of two terms contained in the Hometown Heroes Survivors Benefit Act of 2003.

The Hometown Heroes Act, which was unanimously passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by President Bush in December of 2003, stated:

“if a public safety officer dies as the direct and proximate result of a heart attack or stroke, that officer shall be presumed to have died as the direct and proximate result of a personal injury sustained in the line of duty, if--

(1) that officer, while on duty--
`(A) engaged in a situation, and such engagement involved nonroutine stressful or strenuous physical law enforcement, fire suppression, rescue, hazardous material response, emergency medical services, prison security, disaster relief, or other emergency response activity; or
`(B) participated in a training exercise, and such participation involved nonroutine stressful or strenuous physical activity…
(3) such presumption is not overcome by competent medical evidence to the contrary.

The manner in which DOJ was defining the term “nonroutine stressful or strenuous physical activity” has caused some concern among survivors and the public safety community at large. In several cases, DOJ has denied benefits to the survivors of public safety officers who have died in the line of duty from a heart attack or stroke based at least in part on the assumption that the emergency activities the officers were undertaking were “routine” for a public safety officer.

“I believe it is safe to say that any firefighter or law enforcement officer will tell you no emergency situation is ever ‘routine,’” stated Bill Webb, Executive Director of the Congressional Fire Services Institute. “Our nation’s public safety officers put their lives on the line every day. A situation which they may encounter on a regular basis can quickly escalate into a catastrophic situation. While the men and women of our nation’s fire service are often prepared for almost any situation, the stress involved in their jobs is anything but routine and can take an enormous toll both physically and mentally.”

The new DOJ policy memorandum clarifies the meaning of the term “nonroutine stressful or strenuous activity” and specifically states that “Responding to an emergency call shall presumptively be treated as non-routine.”

Many survivors have also expressed concern over how DOJ has implemented the phrase “competent medical evidence to the contrary” in past decisions. The Department has often asked for as much as ten years of medical records and some survivors have reported infinite requests for more medical records from DOJ staff. The new policy memorandum clarifies that medical records shall only be requested if the information provided in the claim file suggests factors outside of the line of duty may be responsible for the heart attack or stroke. The memo further clarifies that “medical-history records requested of the claimant will be reviewed for mitigating evidence in favor of the claim.”

“While we believe this a positive development in resolving this issue, there is still more work to be done,” said Mr. Webb. “It is now up to DOJ to implement the new policy and to make it work. Too many families have been left out in the cold waiting for DOJ to do what Congress unanimously intended for them to do. It is imperative that fire service continue to monitor the situation to make sure the families of our public safety officers are treated fairly and their claims are processed efficiently and as Congress intended.”

• To view the PSOB policy memos click here. (pdf file)

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

This conflagration is one for the books. I am asking everyone to document this event. We are witnessing something that sometimes only happens once in a life time. You folks out there on engines I hope are using FOAM or some type. I know that FOAM is not always environmentally friendly, but there are several manufactures that do have green friendly FOAM. I won't get into any war stories, so if you got it, use it. I you need it ask for it. I don't work for a FOAM company, but I do know how effective CAFFS Units are. Finally, what ever you do. Be aware of your surrounding, watch out for the other guy and Think Safety First. God Be With All Of You!

-=RADAR=-

I added this to the to the socal FF injuries/deaths/burnovers hotlist page. Ab.

I'm a resident of Northern Cal and a longtime volunteer firefighter/emt in my county (remember that 80% of our nation's firefighters are volunteers).

I have a thought on the Santa Ana winds. I was raised in Ramona, graduating in 1971 from high school. In 1969, as I rode the bus to school a few days before Halloween, we kids saw a fire start from a downed power line with Santa Ana winds blowing. When all was said and done, 300,000+ acres burned, nearly all the way to the coast. My Dad was a San Diego county correctional officer with a prisoner line crew and was gone for a week, and stated he had never seen such a devious fire when propelled by the Santa Ana winds. My cousin is a retired CDF captain who ran air-ops out of Ramona Airport and was a firefighter during that fire and has the same awed memories of a fire driven by these winds.

Nearly 40 years later, the same wind events are causing the same problem. A 2004 fire in Ramona, almost to the same day of October, with Santa Ana winds should have been a recent enough memory to those who decide when to call fire season or prepare for an event of this magnitude. These winds occur every year, always at the end of fire season. They are as certain as the sun rising and setting. Should CalFire have a policy of calling the end of fire season in SoCal after this wind event has concluded? Should they have prepared sooner for this event knowing what Santa Ana wind speed is capable of? I am not privy to the planning of an event or need to worry about budgets, when to decide fire season is over with, etcetera. All I do know are the memories of living with chapped knees (girls wore skirts to school then), lips and elbows during the Santa Ana wind season.

As I write this, I am concerned for my cousins and elderly aunts and uncles who have been evacuated from Ramona, sister and niece evacuated from the Escondido and Rancho Bernardo areas. My concern for them extends to the women and men involved in this event and for all local Strike Teams leaving our northern counties to assist those in need. These Santa Ana winds are something to behold.

Here, in northern Cal, we have a north blown wind event during summer months, when we have "red flag" warnings. It is nothing compared to Santa Ana winds.

Please keep safe and keep safe and most of all, keep safe.

CS

there is a link on the right that says 'Socal Fire Intel'
if you click on the link, it loads the 2003 fire perimeters and current infrared heat from MODIS into Google Earth.

feel free to post this link anywhere on the hotlist that you feel will be useful, and thanks for the forum!

NorthTree Fire GIS

Another suggestion for those actively engaged in the fire fight: A 3x5 size index card
with ICE and other personal medical information can be taped into the inside top of
a hardhat/helmet without affecting the integrity of the hardhat/helmet. Information
readily available without searching through wallet or cell phone.

Blessings Brothers and Sisters.....be safe.

Firefox

Check out the message sent in by Letterman on 10/2 RE: Air Resources. Also see Lobotomy's on 10/7 RE: ERCs...

Everything was let go from contract because an "Adequate" number of Nat. helicopters will still be available.....

You're correct, we used to stay on contract and be available to reposition for such events -- not to say you'd want to fly in that wind -- but at least you'd be there when you are needed. Not this year. Our helicopters were let go at the end of the MAP, 12 days ago.... Would have been $2,400 a day to keep it on and staffed and ready to respond. Oh well, we'll see when the new color reports come out this time.

I think the comment, "we will reassess....fall season etc." says it all.

Sign me: Stop making sense (it hurts my brain)

California Joint Incident Briefing
10/22/2007 1000 hrs

CA-Intel-102207.pdf (41K pdf file)

bob

Ab.

10/22/07

Mornin - Yesterday afternoon the Santa Clara Mojave Rivers District Office was lost to the Buckweed fire. Buildings, vehicles, equip located at the site were destroyed. Wanted to let you know in case you need to reach someone at that District. I will be sending more info out later today as regarding lines of communication, ect. I do not yet know if employees have suffered other personal losses as a result of these fires. We do have a meeting this morning at 9am with the affected District employees. More later as I learn more. Please keep our employees and their families in your thoughts and prayers. thanks

Jody Noiron
Forest Supervisor
Angeles NF, R5

Sammie

CNN has had it on as well. The "Malibu fire" has gotten the big coverage because of the celebrity, but San Diego is in very bad shape and now several fires in San Bernardino and log-jammed evacuations there.

Winds were tipping over semi trailers, some blow steadily, but there are erratic gusty and swirly wind conditions in some areas.

The fires in San Diego cover 100,000 acres (Ramona-Witch; Rancho Bernardo-, etc 4 fires right now), are involving 250,000 evacuations, including hospitals and nursing homes. UCSD burn center is treating 12 people for fire-related injuries. All police have been called in to help with evacs. Some evacuees are being directed to the QualCom Stadium where the Chargers play, but that only holds 60-67,000 people. San Diego officials have said that there is not enough personnel or equipment to fight fire in all areas. They're picking and choosing, doing the best with what they have. The National Guard is strained with many being in Iraq. The ones near San Diego are on border patrol. Those forces are being pulled off to help with evacuations. If the winds do not abate, it's thought most of these fires will merge as they did in 2003.

Firefighters, do not take chances. No home is worth a life.

Check this, Sammie, for live San Diego coverage: http://media.myfoxla.com/live/ Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/index.php

But on the other hand why didn't South Ops put out a
request to have crews available if they knew the wind
event was going to happen. I see an error on both the
command centers and the crews.

Just my thoughts

"You do not expect something to stretch our resources to this magnitude,"
Los Angeles County Fire Inspector Sam Padilla told The Associated Press. "To
try and staff something this big, you cannot predict it."

Read it and weep. Enough said.

So, in order not to pre-judge this, and operate on a factual basis, can we
get a list of outside resources that were prepositioned into So Cal prior
to, say, 0600 Sunday? Shouldn't be hard.

The proof of part of this issue will lie in that pudding.

Hugh

The 60 Minutes segment The Age of Mega-Fires is available for viewing on the cbs.com website.
www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3389657n

Anonymous

2. We ran Type 2 and 3 helicopter missions out of Pepperdine

3. Let the pilots (LA entities have Chief Pilots who are KEY) work out flight routes, then make them known ASAP

4. We dipped seawater successfully off the Santa Monica Pier. I had 6 Type 1s in a daisy chain going up Topanga, load and return, continuously on Nov 4. I shut down the airtankers, which caused unimaginable political pressure and backlash, but I stuck to my guns and was strongly supported by LAC.

5. I had 40+ helicopters from 7 agencies: policy/procedures was potentially a huge issue but with some "win-win" sweet talk approaches (yes, I can do sweet talk) we basically adopted IHOG standards relative to PPE, crew haul, etc. (this was during the Draft 4 days of IHOG but I never brought the document out, just had excellent and supportive LA County IC and OSC)

6. Cost apportionment is huge so get on top of that ASAP (recommend an ASGS devoted just to that)

7. Remember, LA City and LA County ships fly at night doing rescue missions as part of their job. Repeat, as part of their job. They train for this and do it daily (or nightly!!) So don't flip your lid if you're a fed: remember risk vs gain. If people are dying in their back yards, then the risk of a properly planned mission is well worth it. However, watch the "chaos factor."

8. I had the luck to have 2 of the best ATGSs in the business, Kandarian and Chestnut, when I arrived. They made all the difference in the world.

9. At my ATGS' instruction (I always figured as an AOBD I worked for them), I spent the first 6 hours at Pepperdine with the COML getting a highly chaotic frequency situation straightened out. It was so bad the Type 1 heavies were ready to quit (and if that is the case, you know it's bad). That fire was 18,000 acres, relatively small, but highly congested with fire and media aircraft. Basically it was an East-West split from the ocean to the North with the dividing line just with each portion having both RW and FW discrete air-air and air-grounds - a pain for the pilots to switch but I had the Ty 2 and 3 helicopters restricted to the west side with only Ty 1s operating on the east in Topanga Cyn, so there was not much crossover of aircraft geographically.

10. Had upwards of 10+ media helicopters but they stayed outside the TFR and the ATGSs did a masterful job of letting them in to get footage. They behaved well, recognizing the chance of an NMAC or worse was extremely high.

11. Resist political pressure to perform unsafe missions.

When I arrived early Wednesday in on Nov 4 of 1994, there was a couple of Leads (Tachman was one), 2 ATGSs, 5 Type 1 Helicopter Managers, numerous CDF and LA Cty/City fly crews, and nothing else.

I looked at Draft 4 (of 5) of the IHOG on the seat next to me and said, "See ya' later, piggie, this is gonna be an interesting one." And it certainly was. Helicopters were landing and taking off at will out of Pepperdine, the 6 Type 1s I had transferred from the fire I was on the in the Cleveland (Ortega) had chosen the State Park as their refuel/landing area/helibase (the 5 helicopter managers were pretty busy with crowd control).

I called my ASGS Mark Sayles who had stayed back at the Ortega Fire and said, "Man, I'm drowning already, get your butt down here!" which of course Mark proceeded to do at a high rate of speed and, in his inimitable magic way, along with some great Type 1 Helicopter Managers like Mike Hopf, had everything organized by nightfall!!)

Hopefully LA County learned a lesson from 1994 because they were going to "shift out" Wednesday night (Nov 4th) after me and the IC/OSC/LSC had spent until 1:00 a.m. getting set for the next day. I was not aware that this was their policy (union stuff), and if you wanted to see a grown man cry, that was me when the OSC stated I'd have a new OPS in the morning. The LAC IC got that stopped ASAP.

There were a few times during that first and second day when I started to regret having called South Ops from the Ortega to volunteer to be the Malibu AOBD (with my IC Bob Smart's and AOBD's Ron Raley's permission). Especially with the Deputy Mayor of Los Angeles on the horn asking me why in hell his helicopters weren't flying in Topanga with the heavies (and in front of the cameras of course). But at least from the air standpoint I and others felt it was a pretty successful example of quickly organizing some order out of total chaos. It remains absolutely fascinating and incredible to me how good we collectively all are at doing that - the synergy is absolutely beautiful to watch and be part of.

Good luck to whomever has got the AOBD position today!!!

And if there isn't one available, well, I sure would ...... (forget that, I didn't take my fire refresher this year so I wouldn't get a red card and be so dam*ed tempted) but I'd do it again in a heartbeat, folks.

Hugh Carson

Thanks to all who are posting responsibly and not adding to the rumor mill.

BE SAFE ALL. Ab.

Here's an article that seems to clarify the injuries and fatalities. From the LA Times;

www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fire22oct22,0,4878345.story?coll=la-home-center

In San Diego County, where two major fires erupted, one person was reported killed and four burned in the fast-moving Harris Fire along the rugged U.S.-Mexico border. By mid-afternoon it had scorched 3,000 acres and forced the evacuation of hundreds of homes in an area about 75 miles east of downtown San Diego. The person killed and those burned were thought to be undocumented migrants walking northward across the hilly terrain, officials said.

Four firefighters were also injured in a "flash-over" when fire roared over their vehicle. The four were airlifted to UC San Diego Medical Center burn center. Their condition was not released.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SoCal injuries link

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_us/california_wildfires_37

NVJims

Normbc9

Norm, I don't know which of the many fires (3 near LA?) you're talking about... OK a Hotlist poster says it's the Ranch Fire. Ab.

noname

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/forumdisplay.php?f=1

Be Safe.

Ab.

Many of these emails touch me, but this one -- with the Santa Ana winds upon SoCal -- got to me. One very fitting tribute to our E57 firefighters is to appreciate and share from the heart with those around you. Thanks, Dad. Ab.

TX Lobo

Thank you, we appreciate you in the time of our loss, you and the rest of RD 5
(line firefighters) will always be our brothers and sisters. We will remember.

CALFIRE AND RD 5 (LPF) have made the news (due to our tragedies) too
many times in the past years, we feel the pain of October 26 as well, stay strong
my brothers and sisters of the USFS RD 5.

Fire Captain B CALFIRE

CA-LACoFD/ANF-Ranch

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=11584#post11584

Ab,

Hopefully this isn't too late to post, or it hasn't been posted previously ...

On Sunday evening, October, 21, 2007, the CBS News show "60 Minutes" is
expected to feature a story on wildland fire and the impacts of global
warming. 60 Minutes airs Sundays at 7 p.m. ET/PT, check your local listings
for the broadcast time in your area.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/60minutes071016.doc (363K doc file)

A Happy California Cow

"These dedicated men died while serving their country, and I extend our deepest sympathies to their families. Their sacrifice demonstrates the level of commitment, heroism, and character that is required of a Forest Service firefighter. I believe there is a level of commitment and character that is required of any public servant. There may be other jobs that are more glamorous or jobs that don't require you to navigate, of course, the Beltway traffic every morning, or stay late when issues are breaking; but these are important jobs, and they require a great deal of dedication."

~~ Acting Secretary of Agriculture Chuck Conners comments (10/11/2007) at the 60th Annual Honor Awards Ceremony regarding the losses on the Esperanza and Elk fires.

Here's the poem:

It’s been one year of thousands of moments, we have missed you so
The emptiness within our hearts, stays with us as we go.
The Santa Ana winds are blowing, reminding us of then,
When thoughts of saving lives meant more, from that you could not mend.
We pray the loss of life you gave, was not something made in vain
That people now protect their homes, with space away from flames
And always be the first to go, when told that danger’s coming
The painful outcome for not, is very cold and numbing
Your love within us always remains like you, we pass it on
The firefighters who mourned with us, are family never gone
Pray for the safety of each one, as they give you all they've got
By “Always Remembering” this, and “Thanking” them a lot

Bonnie McKay
Mother of Jason McKay-Engine 57

Thanks, Bonnie. Ab.

Service & Celebration of Life Tuesday October 23, 2007
A Private Invitation Only Service @ 1300hrs

Immediately following the service a celebration of life @
Pine Valley County Park
28810 Old Hwy 80
@ 1400 hrs till ?

The celebration of life is open to all Fire Service personnel & anyone else who would like join the Will family in the celebration of Matt’s life. The family requests “casual” attire or a well kept work uniform for those attending on duty.

Matt Streck
Fire Captain- PIO, CalFire

BB

I was wondering last week about what was being planned for the 1 year anniversary of Esperanza. Thanks FC 180 for the briefing on State and County activities. I'm sure the great people of the BDF have been planning something as well. Many of us on other Forests, Parks and BLM Districts haven't heard anything official about any federal approved and sponsored activities from R-5 or the WO. E-57 belongs to all of us now, as we are reminded of the tragedy and we see the faces every day when we come to work. We see it hanging on our walls, on our vehicles and in this forum. It would be positive to see something official from R-5 FAM, R-5 Line and even the WO on official activities, direction on flags, etc. Please just don't let the day go by RO/WO without something, even if it's just a letter from our Regional Director for R-5 FAM saying....... something.

Whatever is planned, please don't send it out at the end of the day on the 25th only to have most of the field see it, oh around on the 27th or 28th. The proudest I've ever been with the Forest Service was the outstanding work of the IMTs last year during Esperanza. The stories I heard were amazing. I remember getting a phone call late one night last year from an IMT member who was having trouble sleeping called, telling me he was just in awe of the good that was going on. Has an IMT or group of employees been mobilized yet to work on the one year anniversary?

Please do something positive RO/WO. Please lead. Don't get me wrong, all will do something that day without you. However, it would be so refreshing and unique to have you on board. From GS-2's to GS-15's all on the same page, doing something positive TOGETHER for just one day.

If something has come out and I missed it, then it's highly likely many others have as well.

Letterman

Thank you. Well said. Ab.

These Pictures were on the local news station KION 46

This is a shot of Monterey, we were surrounded by CalFire blue dress uniforms. We really appreciate CalFire letting us sit with them in their seating area.

THE STATUE !!

LPF-C1

The statue was provided by the Wildland Firefighter Foundation on behalf of all of us. Ab.

I appreciate your willingness to share your perspective. All I have to say is that this
comment of yours is the most telling in the limitations to perspective that it illuminates...
Systemic problems in agencies exist outside the fire program but make fire unsafe.
I will not say more.

"And I mostly ignore anybody outside of the fire program because it doesn’t affect
me in relation to my job… at least not that much and I only have so much time,
energy, and effort in an eight hour day."

Mellie

Pledge/Donate Ab.

Ab will copy, paste, and email any further communications between BLMboy and Misery Whip behind the scenes if they deviate from "just the facts". This board is "about the what, not the who."

Normbc9

Yes, I forgot to mention that the cruise control post was only for those who don't read handbooks. Haw Haw Ab.

Thanks for checking Blue Zebra. I don't think that was Michelle's investigation on Snopes, but part of the email she received that she was sharing. It could have referred only to the cruise control part of the email. (I cut some of what she sent. It was too long. Probably my bad.) Since NIOSH sent the rest, hopefully they did the research on Toyota.

All I know is that someone that is a friend of our family was very badly hurt using cruise control in the rain. Before this accident, I had never heard of the cruise control issue and I head out for long miles in the rain often in winter. I almost always used cruise control. No more. I now have a slide in my slide tray. Ab.

My request to all........

I can't change the world but am trying to change my small part of it.
I have changed my page on {myspace} to say "In honor of my brother, update your emergency contact info."
I ask all of you to pass this on and get the message out.
You see, it took many long hours for the forest department to find my mother b/c Jason's contact info wasn't current.
It wouldn't have changed the fact of his death, but it has stirred in me this idea some may never think about.

Make sure your address, your phone number, the phone and address numbers of loved ones are current in addition to the hospital, work, school or Doctors info.
All the info in your wallet should be current.
Having these current will ensure family and friends will know in a quick manner in case of an emergency.
Please Act: review your info and children's info; change it every time, on time!!!
I've been making my rounds on {Myspace} to get to as many of you wonderful people as I can.
I LOVE you all like my Brothers and Sisters; I have the utmost love and respect for you all.

God Bless You All and may the Lord keep you all from Harm

With all the love in my heart to each of you ,

Brenda {Jason McKay's Sister}

-MJ

United States Department of the Interior
BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT
Fire and Aviation

Wildland Firefighter Burn Injury Protocols:

XXX Required Treatment for Burn Injuries
The following procedures will be used when the Bureau of Land Management
(BLM) employees sustain burn injuries regardless of agency jurisdiction. These
procedures will also apply to federal employees, casuals, and other personnel
covered by the Federal Employees Compensation Act who are burned during a
wildland fire operation with BLM jurisdiction.

After on-site medical response, initial medical stabilization, and evaluation are
completed, District Field Managers will coordinate with the attending physician
to ensure that an employee whose injuries meet any of the following burn injury
criteria (identified by the American Burn Association as warranting immediate
referral to an accredited burn center) is immediately referred to the nearest
regional burn center. A list of possible burn care facilities can be found at
http://www.blm.gov/nifc/st/en/prog/fire/im.html

The decision to refer the employee to a regional burn center will be made
directly by the attending physician or may be requested of the physician by the
Agency Administrator.

Burn Injury Criteria

• Partial thickness burns (second degree) involving greater than 5% total Body Surface Area (TBSA),
• Burns involving the face hands, feet, genitalia, perineum, or major joints,
• Third degree burns of any size are present,
• Electrical burns, including lightning injury, are present,
• Inhalation injury is suspected,
• Burns accompanied by traumatic injury (such as fractures),
• Individuals are unable to immediately return to full duty.

It is imperative that action is expeditious, as burn injuries are often difficult to evaluate and may take 72 hours to manifest themselves. When there is any doubt as to the severity of the injury, the required action is to immediately refer and transport the employee to a regional burn center.

This Ab considers it important info. A 28 year old friend of our family who is a safe driver broke 2 legs and an arm in an auto accident 9 or10 days ago. It totaled her car. We had our first rainstorm in norcal. She was driving on Hwy 101 (Humboldt Co), hit a large shallow puddle and cruise control acted exactly as described in the NIOSH piece below:

Michelle sent:

This was looked up on SNOPES.com and it is TRUE, not a hoax.

A CDC NIOSH Safety Announcement:

Some vehicles (like the Toyota Sienna Limited XLE) will not allow you to set the cruise control when the windshield wipers are on--GOOD IDEA!

Subject: Cruise Control Warning

I wonder how many people know about this?

A 36 year old female had an accident several weeks ago and totaled her car. A resident of Kilgore, Texas, she was traveling between Gladewater & Kilgore. It was raining, though not excessively, when her car suddenly began to hydro-plane and literally flew through the air. She was not seriously injured but very stunned at the sudden occurrence!

When she explained to the highway patrolman what had happened he told her something that every driver should know - NEVER DRIVE IN THE RAIN WITH YOUR CRUISE CONTROL ON . She thought she was being cautious by setting the cruise control and maintaining a safe consistent speed in the rain.

But the highway patrolman told her that if the cruise control is on when your car begins to hydro-plane and your tires lose contact with the pavement, your car will accelerate to a higher rate of speed making you take off like an airplane. She told the patrolman that was exactly what had occurred.

The patrolman said this warning should be listed, on the driver's seat sun-visor - NEVER USE THE CRUISE CONTROL WHEN THE PAVEMENT IS WET OR ICY, along with the airbag warning. We tell our teenagers to set the cruise control and drive a safe speed - but we don't tell them to use the cruise control only when the pavement is dry.

The only person the accident victim found, who knew this (besides the patrolman), was a man who had a similar accident, totaled his car and sustained severe injuries.

another heads up:

NIOSH has recently released the following Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Report:

F2006-24 Jun 25, 2006 Volunteer deputy fire chief dies after falling through floor hole in residential structure during fire attack - Indiana www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200624.html

Be Safe!

Michelle

Matt keepsake front
Matt keepsake back

Thanks for all you do,

Carol DeSilva

Thanks for all this community does. Ab

I think he's still hoping someone will hand him an EASY button.

<snicker>

Mellie

1. Fire stations must be large because of the size of the equipment, sleeping/eating accommodations and associated OSHA, NFPA, EPA, etc.. So the cost to build and maintain a fire station could easily exceed that of a community’s law enforcement building.
2. NFPA recommends minimum 4 people on a crew. So you have to employ at least 16 – 18 firefighters to cover the shifts and provide minimal supervision and that would not include EMS transport capability. Lots of small communities can get by with a law enforcement staff of 3 – 9 and still provide coverage. So once again fire protection would be considerably more expensive.
3. Fire trucks are 3 – 10 times more expensive than law enforcement patrol vehicles. Even Chief’s vehicles tend to be expensive due to command requirements. If there are no, or insufficient, hydrants in the community then you have to have water tender(s) available. Tenders are also 3 – 5 times more expensive than a law enforcement vehicle.

So funding a fire department can far exceed the cost for law enforcement. Further, I know many small communities that have gone a year or more without a structure fire, no MVAs requiring extrication and almost no brush fires. True, there may be medical calls but most of the time that is, or can be, covered by a private contractor or county based ambulance system… and sometimes through the VFD. While the same communities may have little crime, just their patrolling presence can be reassuring to a community. Seeing fire trucks parked on the ramp and rarely moving is kinda tough to take for a lot of public citizens.

Now, in my perfect world all fire departments would be combination departments. Now there is a win-win if I ever saw one! All communities need full-time, highly skilled, ready-to-roll fire protection… and it would be wonderful to have firefighters that are paid. And even more firefighters serving their communities as volunteers doing what they love backing up the paid ff’s with the sheer numbers that are required at times. How sweet would that be!!

Unfortunately, all too often, communities have to make hard choices. I know where I was the Chief of the VFD we had a 3 person crew during the day that was paid staff (plus a paramedic from the county fire department). But at night and on weekends we had vols there manning the station. We ran 4 – 12 calls per day, never missed one, and often moved our second engine out to other stations (paid county stations) to cover them while they were gone on long-term incidents. When brush fire season hit, the county was always asking us to move our brush truck(s) and water tender to where the action was. Again, we never missed a request. Plus, we kept our station at full staff for our own calls.

Depends on the community, call volume, funding capability, political and cultural environments, and of course, leadership. Nice to know there is room for all firefighters when cool, calm, and rational people prevail. Thanks for your insight.

Be safe brother!

BLMboy

I know that Erickson Air Crane has some models available.
You can find their contact information on their website.

Oregonfirefighter

Make something happen, not just talk.

BDFCAPTFOG

Most of those I work with are busy doing that in our own arenas year round. I encourage everyone to pursue the goal of making something happen. BFD, I didn't mean to shut you down.
Readers, what would be an appropriate "protest" to honor E-57? I know we're all tired at the end of the season, at least I am. Anyone got any ideas for action? Ab.

Also: Donate. Pledge. Donate Pledge... Run Ken Run! Good for the Dalton shots! Ab.

www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_7218706
Wildfire smoke a culprit in mercury's toxic spread
By Steve Lipsher
The Denver Post

Forest fires stir up as much mercury as power plants, scattering the toxic metal after it was originally deposited by industrial smokestacks, according to a study released Wednesday.

Scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder found that small concentrations of mercury that had landed in soil and been absorbed by vegetation were redistributed by wildfire smoke plumes.

This may be an important pathway for the metal to end up in waterways, the researchers said.

"This is our first step to understand whether these emissions are big or small. Our first estimates are they are pretty big," said Christine Wiedinmyer, an NCAR scientist who authored the study with colleague Hans Friedli.

The researchers studied levels of mercury in the wildfire smoke in different types of vegetation and measured the amount of mercury left behind in soil after a fire.

They determined that about 48 tons of the metal are redistributed by fires each year in the United States.

About 108 tons of mercury, a common byproduct of coal combustion from power plants, is released annually across the country from industrial sources.

The study found that fires contribute about 30 percent of the total U.S. emissions, Friedli said.

The study, published online in the journal Environmental Science and Technology, found that fires over the past five years have emitted particularly large quantities of the metal.

The next step in the research, Friedli said, is to determine how far the mercury is transported and to establish the risk of increased contamination to downwind ecosystems and communities.

Article includes photo of the New Castle wildfire in CO taken on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 Ab.
Fair Use Disclaimer

Anyone got any ideas on sources?

Thanks.

STUMPIE

With toys in hand, fire crews pay visit to Shriners Hospital for Children
By: Loryll Nicolaisen, Journal Staff Writer
www.auburnjournal.com/articles/2007/10/18/news/top_stories/05firefightersshriners18.txt
Thursday, October 18, 2007

Some area firefighters made the day a little brighter for pediatric patients at the Shriners Hospital for Children in Sacramento.

The crew of Foresthill-based Tahoe National Forest Engine 41, along with Smokey the Bear and representatives from Tahoe National Forest Engine 41 and the American River Hotshots hand crew, headed down to Sacramento Oct. 8 with a truck packed with toys and gifts intended for children being treated at the hospital. This marks the third year the firefighters have raised money for Shriners.

"It's the highlight of our year, going down for the visit," said firefighter Dave Mecchi.

Funding for the gifts comes from the station's recycling fund, along with the personal contributions from American River Ranger District staff, Tahoe Engine 42 and the American River Hotshots, which organized an inter-agency benefit volleyball tournament involving teams from the U.S. Forest Service and Cal Fire Fire Station 11.

"This comes from personal contributions," Mecchi said, noting that firefighters don't do any external soliciting.

To read the rest, click the link. Nice photo of Tahoe National Forest firefighter Eric Rusch talking with kids. Ab.

Sisters and Brothers

Can't believe what I have been reading but it does not surprise me. How much lower can the Management in the R5 Regional Office go? I thought the OSHA report on Esperanza was pretty low but it seems they will do anything to divide our ranks and make us weak. (communist philosophy) Funny what the government learned from Viet Nam.

So back to my sixties roots I propose a protest.

In one week we will HONOR the first anniversary of Engine 57.
So call in sick on October 26th and make it a National Wildland Firefighters Memorial Day.

BDFCAPTFOG

We can't advocate a sick out or sick in or anything sick. Fire doesn't take a sick day. Might be my own sense of duty speaking, but I doubt if those from E-57 who died would want to be memorialized that way. Abercrombie.

"Gov. Janet Napolitano declined to give her impressions of the state's performance on the first day of the three-day test, but said Arizona authorities have gained experience in other emergency response tests and in responding to the needs of wildfire seasons.

'Overall, I think we have a skilled base here,' Napolitano said."

Very nice to hear the leadership of AZ understands the level of preparedness and the experience that comes from the wildfire community and the frequent wildfires the state experiences.

Also, KOLD-News13 in Tucson has this article on UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles)- some safety considerations as wildfire is looking at this technology:
www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=7229461

Be safe!

-butterfly

The info CalFire sent out was posted here on theysaid, on the California state website and northops news and notes. Look at the hotlist thread. It's there. Says only that there will be no procession of equipment and that parking will be limited. Ab.

Thank you for all the hard work you do on the
wildland fire lines and the special work done for the helispot. Some
decisions made by management I will never understand and this one made
it to the top of the list. If there were factors involved like a fire
or a high fire danger in the area where your crew is stationed, maybe I
would understand. But with rain over the last weekend, no fires at this
time and within a short drive from where you are stationed, I just do
not understand why a crew that was working on the fire and involved in
the rescue, setting up a helispot, would not be allowed to attend the
memorial.

I hope this makes it up the chain of command so it never happens again.

I am proud to work for a department that paid overtime to a firefighter
to allow me to attend the memorial service.

DoD Federal Fire Captain

I'd be happy to forward any replies to Hugh... Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/h534crew-carrier72hr.doc (450 doc file) has 2 photos.

Text below. Ab.

Date: October 4, 2007
Subject: 72 Hour Briefing, San Bernardino Forest Heaps Peak Crew Carrier Accident October 1, 2007
To: Vicki Jackson, Acting Regional Forester

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE

Number Injured: 1 moderate

Preliminary Factual Findings:
On October 1, 2007, a Crew Carrier with eight Forest employees from the Heaps Peak Helitack, were involved in a single vehicle rollover. They crew was in route to a mop-up assignment on the Butler II fire near Big Bear Lake, on the MountainTop District of the San Bernardino Forest.

Narrative:
On October 1, 2007, at 0915, the Heaps Peak Helitack departed Heaps Peak in a 10 passenger crew carrier with the driver and seven passengers for an assignment on the Butler II Fire. While driving along State Highway 18, in an area known as the “Artic Circle”, the driver stuck the guard rail and lost control of the crew carrier. The driver, attempted to regain control, but over corrected, struck another guard rail and went airborne off the side of the hill about 90 feet before hitting the hillside. The vehicle landed on its driver side first, crushing the driver cab, where upon the crew compartment separated from the cab and chassis. The two units then rolled several times down a 100 percent slope coming to rest 235 feet below the highway, being stopped only by heavy timber. All employees were wearing seatbelts and seven escaped with little or no injuries; one sustained moderate injuries to his shoulder. Two employees were kept in the hospital overnight for observation. The Del Rosa and Big Bear Hot Shots and Forest engine crews along with rescue units from Big Bear Lake Fire, and San Bernardino County Fire, performed a low angle rescue. The crew compartment, although sustaining damage, was structurally sound and protected the crew from more serious injuries.

A Regional Investigation Team is conducting a Safety Investigation. The California Highway Patrol is also conducting an accident investigation.

/S/ Kathy Hardy
Team Leader

Cc: Jim Pena, Deputy Regional Forester, Gene Smalley, Regional Safety Manager, Peter Tolosano, Regional Fire safety Officer, Jeanne Wade, San Bernardino Forest Supervisor.

As you know we generally stay away from religion and politics on this board. The topics are hot (emotionally charged) and people already seem to have their own mindset coming into the discussion. I'd be happy to pass messages behind the scenes if you don't want to email Hugh directly. Ab.

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [Laws in effect as of January 3, 2005]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 3, 2005 and April 6, 2006]
[CITE: 5USC6328]

TITLE 5--GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION AND EMPLOYEES

PART III--EMPLOYEES

Subpart E--Attendance and Leave

CHAPTER 63--LEAVE

SUBCHAPTER II--OTHER PAID LEAVE

Sec. 6328. Absence in connection with funerals of fellow Federal
law enforcement officers

A Federal law enforcement officer or a Federal firefighter may be
excused from duty without loss of, or reduction in, pay or leave to
which such officer is otherwise entitled, or credit for time or service,
or performance or efficiency rating, to attend the funeral of a fellow
Federal law enforcement officer or Federal firefighter, who was killed
in the line of duty. When so excused from duty, attendance at such
service shall for the purposes of section 1345(a) of title 31, be
considered to be an official duty of the officer or firefighter.

(Added Pub. L. 103-329, title VI, Sec. 642, Sept. 30, 1994, 108 Stat.
2432, Sec. 6327; renumbered Sec. 6328, Pub. L. 106-56, Sec. 1(c)(1),
Sept. 24, 1999, 113 Stat. 407.)

Codification

Section 642 of Pub. L. 103-329, which directed that this section be
added ``following the word `Forces' in section 6326'' was executed by
adding the section after section 6327, as added by section 629(a)(1) of
Pub. L. 103-329, to reflect the probable intent of Congress.

Amendments

1999--Pub. L. 106-56 renumbered section 6327 of this title as this section.

We need everyone to start writing letters to Congress
and let them know what's going on. It almost feels
like they are trying to make the region and the
service fail. I really can't wait to hear the
bull-s**t excuse they are going to come up with on why
they made such a decision. I'll bet it will be a pay
and liability issue, any bets?

ME

How can the agency talk about core values and empowerment when there
is no leadership to set the example...

Former Green Soldier.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/18/60minutes/main3380176.shtml

Global warming will result in more than rising oceans and melting icecaps. According to one of the world's leading fire ecologists, the warming trend is also increasing the intensity and number of forest fires so much that the American West could lose half its forests by the end of the century.

60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley speaks to Tom Swetnam, a fire ecologist at the University of Arizona, for a report on mega-fires to be broadcast this Sunday, Oct. 21, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

(To read the rest, click the link at the top.)

Ab also found this nice description from the NPS News site:

CBS To Report On Global Warming And Wildland Fire
http://home.nps.gov

CBS To Report On Global Warming And Wildland Fire

That you even had to ask…

“Another CDF BC”

Their FS green crew buggies certainly won't be there... Ab.

I am truly sorry that you were denied a chance to show your emotions and give support to a neighboring firefighter.
As for the decision by your managers to not allow you to attend.....well....I'm afraid that my words aren't meant for this venue........

You all made an honest and heartfelt attempt to show your respect... too bad YOU never get any from your agency.

Copter 100

Those going to the service are no doubt already preparing and off-line. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. Ab.

This is cr*p!

It may be time to intentionally "doctor up" and have part of our treatment be going to the service.

Next time there is a death close to us, I think all involved need to demand and get in writing that some one of us is or may experience post traumatic stress characteristics. Usually we all say no because we do better dealing with it among ourselves and in our own way. If they take that away, I say we hand it back to them.

Strider

The current systemic problem with FS management (I refuse to label them leadership) is no one feels they can wipe their bums or sneeze without Regional or Washington approval. Micro-management at its finest. No ranger is currently empowered to make decisions commensurate with their line authority. Your division chief should have just made a "command decision" and said "go". In the FS of today it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, in your case the first mistake was someone asked a ranger.

Shame on the person who denied your approval to attend, sting

If you all said you did not need it, did you ask up front to be able to attend services?

It was known to our District Ranger and our Division, that we wanted to go and we had gotten the ok to go. Until today (yesterday) at about 5:50pm. At that time both the Ranger and the Division had gotten a call from the Regional office that the district has the ok to send only an engine and a deputy officer to the memorial. Both our Ranger and Division had fought for us and couldn't get the ok for us to go...

Its kinda funny when we lost five of our finest on the Esparanza fire, CAL FIRE and other agencies sent hundreds of engines and personnel from all over California to pay their respects to another agency's loss... errrrrr getting so frustrated right now !!

Its only an hour drive away from our station, so what is the big deal ?

LPF C-1

You will be missed Matt !!!!!

Jimmy Hart
Tony Velasquez
D. DeVriendt
J. Harris
R. Myers
E. Harris
G. Burris
N. Silva
G. Sanchez
S. Acosta
S. Palmer
B. McDonough
J. Martinez
J. Baker
P. Morrison
S. Kirk
J. McGraw

I have included a picture of the helispot we had cleared out so 406 could drop off a medic

signed
so saddened and so frustrated

LPF C-1

Thank you. You represent all of us.

I must also ask. Were you offered and did you receive Critical Incident Stress Debriefing?
If you all said you did not need it, did you ask up front to be able to attend services?
Lessons Learned: Being able to move past tragedy often involves attending services and paying respects, participating in laying the person to rest with honor. I don't know if the Forest Service head honchos realize this. Ab.

Gordon

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=11439#post11439

Ab.

Wikipedia's definition of a hotshot crew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotshot_crew#Crew_Breakdown

Now I wonder who wrote that???

I need to look up smokejumpers....

Mellie

Y & D: What a proactive way to bring about change. Carry on. If you collectively can spur the development of an Emphasis in Fire, you'd be eligible for the scholarship IAWF is working on developing. I revamped the Colleges and Universities page over the weekend. There are very few (with *) that offer a BS with an emphasis, option, or concentration in Wildland Fire. I also updated the CA Regional Occupational Program page. If anyone has similar training info from other states, please send it in. Ab.

You mention in your 10/12 post that the IRS Guide for Fed. Retirees
states that firefighters retiring at age 50 are not subject to the 10% penalty
for early withdrawal of TSP funds. Could you please provide the
document and reference? Thanks.

airtac

We are known for what we give, not what we keep, as our bodies are
our only real belongings. Giving to those in need - without hope of
return - nurtures a caring and generous spirit.

Lori

BLMboy

I appreciate seeing your point of view regarding IAFF. However, the points you have identified in defense of the IAFF, simply illustrate the arrogance of the IAFF leadership on this issue. What the IAFF leadership is saying, in effect, is that their members don't know enough to become fully knowledgeable about the worker's comp issues for both their paid and volunteer jobs, they aren't cognizant of the political climates at their volunteer agencies, and that they can't identify a volunteer agency that is utilizing unsafe strategies and tactics. If I were an IAFF member right now, I would find these inferences pretty offensive!

Simple solution:

IAFF could send out a white paper to all members detailing the issues you did in your post. Each member could make a determination whether they wanted to continue with their volunteerism or not, knowing full well that they could possibly be jeopardizing their career position in several ways. IAFF protects its members, volunteer agencies don't lose a wealth of knowledge, training, and experience.

Proceeding in this manner, we will probably see a small decrease in career/volunteers, but certainly not as drastic a decline if this ill-conceived legislation is enacted.

StumpShot

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=11392

Please pledge/donate.
See who has pledged/donated.

Run time is quickly approaching. Ab.

So you're a Series 0081, an actual Federal Firefighter, not a forestry or range tech (Series 0462 & 0455 respectively) or a biologist (Series 0401).

current Fed FIREFIGHTER 0081 GS 7 job offerings with pay (GS spans GS 3--> 14)

current Forestry Technician (firefighter) 0462 GS 7 job offerings with pay

current Range Technician (firefighter) 0462 GS 7 job offerings with pay

current Biologist (firefighter) 0401 GS 7 job offerings with pay... Oh, no GS 7s listed with this one... Ab.

Thanks, Sean, for the added perspective. Ab.

Rich Fauble, Retired Federal and Still A Volunteer Firefighter

I copied and pasted the comments on this thread over to the hotlist to see if others there would like to contribute. www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2113 Stay tuned... Ab.

Beginning January 1, 2008 all firefighters employed by a California Public Agency will be covered. The provisions of the bill (AB 220) signed into law are similar to the Peace Officer Bill of Rights.

Great Job CPF!! (It has taken CPF over 20 years to get this bill passed.)

SoCal CalFire

Landmark Firefighter Procedural Bill of Rights Signed by Governor

Assembly Majority Leader Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles)

CPF-sponsored legislation giving firefighters administrative safeguards in instances where they are being investigated, interrogated and, as a result subjected to unwarranted punitive action, has been signed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger

AB 220, authored by Assembly Majority Leader Karen Bass (D-Los Angeles), was approved 29-11 by the Senate on September 11th and unanimously by the Assembly in June. It was signed October 13th, less than a month after winning overwhelming, bipartisan support in the Legislature.

The action by the governor and the legislature caps a 20-year struggle to extend common-sense job protections to all first responders. Currently, these protections apply only to law enforcement.

What the Bill Does

AB 220 extends procedural protections to firefighters that are similar to those afforded peace officers and arson investigators under the existing law provisions of the Public Safety Officers' Procedural Bill of Rights Act (POBR). Currently, firefighters are extended certain due process protections, as determined by the California Supreme Court in the landmark Skelly case, but, with the exception of arson investigators, they are excluded from POBR.

Firefighters may find themselves in a number of situations where their sworn duty commands appropriate steps to ensure the safety of the public. As such, firefighters who trust their instincts in volatile emergency situations deserve of the same level of administrative protection as their peace officer and arson investigator colleagues when administrative action is taken against them.

A handful of jurisdictions in California have locally negotiated firefighter agreements in place that grant their firefighters administrative protections similar to those proposed in AB 220. In these few jurisdictions, the collectively bargained agreements have helped stabilize employer-employee and community relations. This is due, in part, to the fact that such agreements reflect joint decision-making and consultation between labor and management, which is an essential element to assuring that stable relations are continued and that effective services are provided to the communities that these firefighters serve.

AB 220 specifies:

• The conditions under which investigations and interrogations that may lead to punitive action of firefighters must be conducted;
• That a firefighter will not be subject to punitive action for exercising his or her rights under this bill or for any alleged misconduct if the investigation of the allegation is not completed within one year of discovery;
• That an administrative appeal by a firefighter will be conducted in conformance with rules and procedures adopted by the applicable local agency, consistent with the Administrative Procedures Act;
• That a firefighter be allowed to read and sign any adverse comment before it is entered into their personnel file. If the firefighter refuses to sign a comment, it will be noted and the firefighter will be required to initial it. The firefighter will also have 30 days to file a written response to the adverse comment entered into their personnel file;
• That a firefighter cannot be compelled to submit to a lie detector test against their will and that no disciplinary action can be taken against the firefighter for refusing to submit to one;
• That a firefighter cannot be required to disclose financial information unless otherwise required by law or court order; That a fire chief, prior to removal, must be provided with written notice stating the reasons for removal and an opportunity for administrative appeal;
• That a firefighter's locker or other storage space cannot be searched except in the firefighter's presence, or with their consent, or if a valid search warrant has been obtained; and
• That it is unlawful to deny a firefighter the rights and protections afforded under this bill.

"AB 220 grants firefighting personnel needed safeguards against unwarranted punitive action where they can not otherwise defend themselves," said CPF President Lou Paulson. "We are appreciative that the Governor has signed this important measure into law."

C'mon now ADFA....Response?

Don Coyote

Wasn't the ATGS position (Air Tactical Group Supervisor) one that was UTF (Unable to Fill)? Here are some Mellie Questions about ATGS on the hotlist: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2105 Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/ifpm-answers.htm

USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region, Fire and Aviation Management
Briefing Paper on GS-401 series

Thanks. I also posted the full text on the Hotlist thread on IFPM. Ab.

A Memorial Service for CAL FIRE HFEO Matthew Will is now being planned for
Thursday October 18, 2007 in the Hollister area. The specific location and time are
undetermined, but it can be anticipated that the event will begin mid-afternoon.
Further information will be released as soon as possible.

Information will be available at the following websites as it becomes available.
www.fire.ca.gov
www.cdffirefighters.org
www.cpf.org
www.wildlandfire.com

Matt Streck
CalFire PIO

I applaud the fact that you have been so generous over the past year - you have certainly gone far and above what most people do. However, you and I both know that there are firefighters out there who have never given a cent to the Foundation. These are the folks that I am addressing and I still say "Shame on you".

As far as limited income, brother, you are preaching to the choir. But let me put this to you. If you folks think that you are on a limited income now, just imagine what it will be like for your family if you are killed or even injured. This is where the foundation comes in, but if we can't keep it going through fundraisers and asking people to pledge, where will your family be then? That is why we must support Ken in his run.

By the way, I DO have an idea how much the community has given. Trust me on that one.

Still saddened but maybe not so speechless

AK Old Timer

FWFSA is an amazing organization. Casey works his butt off educating congress and has good outcomes. That said, membership is an ongoing issue as folks abandon the Forest Service for CalFire. The only way we can bring about change is by bringing it about collectively. Here's the old message, still true, regarding the profundity of the POWER if all signed up:

While talking with the President of FWFSA Mike
Preasmeyer on the Plunge fire the other day, he made a
comment that I thought was simple yet profound "If
all the folks who use prefix 11 on their payroll
sheets in front of the overtime code 21 and are NOT
members of the FWFSA, they should be ashamed of
themselves".

For $10 a pay period from all those folks, we could as
an association be a force to be reckoned with. Sign
up NOW!

OB

FWFSA member, proud of Casey and thankful he's with us!!!

I also appreciate the hard work Casey does. Consummate professional. Click the "Join the FWFSA" icon above. See what their website looks like. Sign up. Ab.

If you or anyone gets a good answer to the Public Safety Officer issue
please let me know. It is easy to assume that just because you did the
job (FF/LE) you are one. It still says "Forestry Tech" (which includes
recreation, etc) so would one be recognized as PSO by the IRS,
"seamlessly", I don't know.

I will list off your points to my Tax Man at tax time but I would sure like
to have something in writing that would back me (us) up.

Feel free to contact me directly.

Rick
rbbrower @ juno.com (take out spaces)

Ab.

I read the tax booklet concerning this issue with great interest as it affects
me also, something that I was not aware of! A big thanks to whomever
pointed it out on their post (sorry, I can't remember who alerted us to
this fact).

I plan on asking my tax preparer if this indeed does apply to us - I would
suggest you do the same. If you do your own taxes, call the IRS and ask
them. I would like to hear what they have to say....

Lori

Do Forest Service "Forestry Tech. 462" who are under fire fighter
retirement qualify as Public Safety Officers?

As a retiree form 26 years in fire as a "Forestry Tech. 462" I don't know
if the I will be able to convince the Tax Man that I was a Public Safety
Officer, my PD says "Forestry Tech."

The all important reason is that I should be able to have my insurance
premium taken out pre-tax as a retiree (fire/LE only).

It seems to be a confusing issue and the 2007 tax guide is not out yet,
AND, will it identify the issue?

Most folks I contact say, You should qualify, but I just don't have the
facts and have never seen anything pertaining to the subject in writing.

Rick

Do I trust the IAFF ? Nope. Too many horror stories of" Hi, I'm from the Union and
I'm here to help."

Danfromord

A question to the naysayers, what happens when you have a family member ill at a gov't residence (if there are any still around) and a green eng is 50 feet away and county fire is 50 minutes away. Do you say "Sorry, not in my job description".

Former Green soldier

Our condolences for your and your family's loss. Ab.

Washington Times had a piece this morning on the IAFF using Congress to
go after volunteer fire departments, which has been brought up earlier
in TheySaid. While it may not have a direct effect on federal wildland
firefighters, I think it should still be something we follow. It seems
to be a blatant attempt to guarantee union dues at the expense of most
small communities in this country and at the expense of choking off an
important pipeline of career firefighters of all forms.

Let's start at the beginning. First, I doubt that many communities use
volunteers as a way of getting around paying otherwise professional
firefighters. A city can't pay enough to have a chemist, heavy equipment
engineer, public affairs specialist, fire equipment specifications
developer, and fully ordained pastor on the fire department staff. I
have known people in all these professions who have volunteered simply
because they were reared to believe it is the right thing to do. I've
also known both wildland and structural firefighters who were able to
get their initial training and experience by being volunteers.

As for the quality of the departments, in my experience, the blend of
volunteers and career makes an ideal setting. The career side usually
boosts the training and equipment available for the whole department.
The volunteers contribute a certain esprit d' corps as well as vital
numbers to do the job. I was involved with one department where if all
the paid guys rolled on a call, there'd only be a dozen or so available
from all four houses. The volunteers provided the sheer numbers needed
for a working fire. Mutual aid? You guessed it -- they were mostly
volunteers in that area.

Let your congress folks know that this bill is a bad idea -- and when
you get the chance, go out and volunteer.

Still Out There ....

Ab & All...

I've read a lot of various talking points concerning the FS Mission here, both Pro and Con. I think we would all agree that no FS Region is identical in what they do other than fight wildland fires. I know crews in R4 don't have an active ems role other than Basic First Aid & some EMT-B let alone any AEDs, "Trauma Bags" and "Airway Bags". The service I work for covers an area from north of Gardner Mt (including Yellowstone & Grand Teton NP), south to the Idaho/Utah state line, west to the Salmon/Challis NF, East to the Shoshone NF. I have worked with FS, BLM and NPS (Park Rangers do good EMS and Back Country Rescue) personnel on medical missions and have found all to be very dedicated to helping with the situation at the time. That being said, this summer on the wildland fires I was around, I didn't see many (none) Paramedics assigned to FS, BLM & NPS Engines or Hand Crews. Also I haven't seen or heard of any Smoke Jumpers jumping or Helitack Crews Rappelling into the back country of the region, to include the Mt/Idaho areas, to facilitate SAR/EMS Operations, its happened in other regions in recent years but not around here.

I think some people really don't understand what it takes to maintain a full time paramedic certification or even EMT-Intermediate certification. Besides the initial training (about 6 months after all the class room, clinical and probationary time) there's the Continuing Education requirements to keep certified, and then there's the Medical Direction/Protocol to establish and maintain. An EMT-B just can't stick an ET or EOA down a persons throat and call it ALS (Advanced Life Support) no matter how big his/her "Airway Bag" is much less start an IV and push some meds.

Besides the time it takes to field Certified Paramedic, or EMT-Intermediate you have to look at the cost of and maintain the training. The way things are going in our nation today, I don't think there are very many members of congress that will fund a program to get Full Time ALS nation wide in the land agencies, then again most politicians will promise anything for a vote and not follow through with action. I really admire and feel for all wildland firefighters after what I seen this summer but I reminded of an old cliché I heard years back "Nobody wants a Soldier til the Enemy is at the Gate", heard the same as applied to Firefighters & Law Enforcement. Other than that How bout those Yankees huh?...its a Shame.

Jodie
Flight Nurse/Paramedic

MARKET RESEARCH SYNOPSIS: The U.S. Forest Service seeks to obtain market research information from sources capable and interested in providing contract services for specified wildland fire dispatch categories and components such as expanded dispatch, predictive services, personnel administrative services and air space coordination. The Agency is conducting this market research to determine the capacity and past experience of the private sector to perform wildland fire dispatch and related services. This market research is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as a commitment of any kind. Any information received may be used, in whole or in part, to develop the acquisition strategy for any resulting procurement(s). Responders will not be compensated for information provided, and are encouraged not to provide proprietary data or business-sensitive information, as any information received may be used by the Government and/or released to the public.

Sources interested in participating in this market research effort should complete the web-based form at http://fs.doi.dispatchmr.mainet.com/

Responses should be submitted on or before November 1, 2007.

Point of Contact: Robert Rinaldi, Assistant Director, Strategic Planning, Budget & Finance, Phone 202-205-1596, Fax 202-690-6006, Email: rrinaldi@fs.fed.us

Aberdeen

I also agree that all have made good points and all should be working together to try and fix the "problem" we, our agency has created by being good at doing our jobs and a whole lot more. Look at Katrina. People learned that if they needed something they should go to the "green pants." We as an agency are good at solving problems. In order for this debate to be settled, we need to work together.

I also see the benefits of being stovepiped directly as I decided to apply for and accepted a position as an LEO after being in fire for 6 years previous. The cut layers help out. I dont have to worry about my funding going away if I have to cite, investigate, or if I just plain Pi$$ off the district rangers. There is also a downside that you have to look at however. As an agency employee who does not answer to the district folks, there is also a bit of resentment.

• "Why do you lock your office and not give anyone here a key?" Because I have to be able to protect the chain of custody of evidence and I have equipment that is sensitive, expensive and dangerous.
• "Why do you get to take home your vehicle?" Because I have to be able to respond to potentially life threatening emergencies rapidly.
• "You HAVE to write Joe-Bob a ticket!" I can not do that. I dont feel I have enough probable cause to hold it up if it goes to court. If you feel you do, then you can cite them if you are an FPO.

There is a disconnect that is honestly difficult to work with after being so close to many of the folks I worked with in the past. But I do it. I am able to articulate answers for just about anything but beware of the downfalls of the type of organization some are looking for.

I pride myself in doing my job and serving the overall mission of the Forest Service as well as the LE&I mission. I work hard and honestly I think I put in more time now then in fire. I average 10.5 hour days and i think that is a little low. I work odd hours and odd days off. My Fridays and Saturdays start at 1 PM and go till at least 9, but usually till midnight or early the next morning. In my job now I am the bad guy in a small town where a firefighter is good, so I dont tell many initially what I do.

There are some of the same issues in my new line of work. I am in a vehicle with red and blue lights, a siren, a few guns, a radio, and a whole lot more. I am expected by the public to help out no matter what. I work with deputies that help me out and I am very limited in my ability to help them out. And i can very easily get sued for messing up. If I am helping out someone out of my area or doing something I am not officially trained to do, I am not "Scoped" and not going to be backed by the agency. But I dont depend on that anyways. I just work hard, stay within the grey lines, and do what i can with what I am provided. I remember that I took an oath to uphold the constitution. An LEO is unique because we have to power to deprive rights and have to make split second decisions as to take a life to stop a threat.

That being said, I love what i do now and I am always trying to incorporate fire into what I do. I use my fire training a little every day by maintaining SA and mitigating hazards and risks (I mean honestly, I think Body Armor is a mitigation!!!). I love the team aspect of fire and that is why I will never lose touch with where i started.

So as my initial paragraph stated, work together to make a solution. Southern California is not the whole world, but neither is Alaska or Montana. I know because I am fortunate enough to have worked in or work in all 3 in my short career. There is however a happy medium. Find it together, put a well thought out presentation together (Casey may be able to help this out as he is well versed that working through our issues) and present it respectfully to the powers that be. Strive to get to a position that better allows you to create, alter, and eliminate policies.

I am sorry if the post jumps back and forth a bit. Keep up the good fight and succeed. Be high speed, low drag. Git er done!!

Respectfully,

Guns-n-hoses

Weighing in on the mission topic. I’m inclined to agree with ms’s general perspective. I think the Forest Service has been trying hard to ignore this issue in recent years.

Some people have argued here that providing medical assistance is not our mission. One lesson I have learned from many years working in the woods is that employees and private citizens get injured sometimes. Waiting for a hospital Life Flight or military medivac can add a significant extra amount of time to a backcountry rescue (the golden hour). The people who can provide basic first aid and begin transport of patients will almost always be the first ones called out of pure necessity, regardless of what uniform they wear, regardless of whether the patient is an employee or not.

If you have ever worked on a USFS exclusive use helitack crew, you have probably participated in medivacs. The jumpers, especially North Cascades and West Yellowstone jumpers, have probably facilitated the extrication of hundreds of injured people over the years. I would be willing to bet that USFS employees nationwide participate in hundreds of rescues/medivacs every year.

On nearly every large long-duration fire, and many smaller ones, injuries occur which require medical attention and transport. It is usually one of the assigned exclusive use helicopter modules that gets tasked with medivac missions. But reimbursement for EMT training and extra pay for qualified EMTs on these crews is not allowed. In spite of this, there are still quite a few good helitack people around who are willing to serve as EMTs when the need arises.

The USFS takes advantage of this situation and unfairly exploits the willingness and skills of EMT qualified employees. I was formerly an EMT and have personally participated in dozens of medivacs and rescues during my fire career, but it has never been in my job description.

For the same reasons we won’t pay for EMT training, wages and equipment, the USFS doesn’t even have an approved method for extricating our own severely injured personnel. For instance, on the Cramer Fire, an injured hotshot was flown out in a cargo net on a longline because no better extrication system was readily available. I frankly think that is shameful for an outfit that was once known for taking care of our own.

I feel that an organization such as the Forest Service, which regularly deals with seriously injured employees and various back-country medical emergencies involving private citizens, ought to acknowledge that we have a responsibility to do more than just cobble something together when these events occur. And we ought to properly train/equip/pay our people who provide these invaluable services to our own people and the citizens who recreate and work on our public lands.

Misery Whip

Please keep this about "the what not the who." Ab.

Condolences. Ab.

Matt Will, you will be missed as I take off my hat and as we drink a pint
thinking of you and your wonderful family. We will miss you, brother.

Mike, Karl and Dan

Thanks to all. Ab.

Casey, I know folks who have worked on the FS direction, who have written and rewritten manuals and other documents and I think they're working with all due diligence and integrity. Whether fire will continue under the Departments of Agriculture and Interior, I think is still uncertain for the long term, in my opinion. OA and I talk about what fire would be like under DHS. Best case scenario it would be streamlined and focused with the money flow clear and accountable. At worst it would be another bureaucracy with all the same pitfalls. Nice comments and questions AK Old Timer. Ab.

Mitigator, I will assume you do not yet know JimHart's orientation and contributions. I can assure you that it is not his goal to make land "suitable for acquisition as habitat". Ab.

TC

www.fs.fed.us/publications/strategic/fs-sp-fy07-12.pdf

This document clearly defines the Mission as:

"Sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation’s forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations."

And Values as:

"• Cares for the Nation’s forest and grassland ecosystems.

• Values the varied skills and contributions of a diverse workforce.

• Strives for accountability by every employee for the efficient management of the capital resources he or she uses.

• Is responsive to national and local interests.

• Is focused on the needs of future generations."

Some other quotes specifically to do with fire:

"Increasingly diverse urban populations are losing their awareness and knowledge of the natural systems on which they depend. The Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), must connect with and educate these citizens to expand their understanding of the links between people, the way they live, and the natural settings within which they live.

With increasingly urbanized landscapes, emergency response—including fighting wildland fires—becomes more complex and challenging. Along with our partners, the Forest Service is committed to maintaining and fielding a safe, effective response organization that can be mobilized for managing wildland fires or other national emergencies. We are jointly committed to reducing the loss of life and property and maintaining landscape values. Together, we will invest in the personnel, training, and equipment and provide leadership commensurate with those responsibilities."

"We will continue our commitment to reducing threats to the Nation’s forests and grass­lands. These threats include (1) the risk of loss from catastrophic wildland fire caused by hazardous fuel buildup;"

"• Develop and apply detection, prediction, prevention, mitigation, treatment, and restoration methods, technologies, and strategies for addressing disturbances (e.g., wildfire, pests, extreme events).

• Provide technical and financial assistance to communities to reduce their risk from wildfire through neighborhood preparation, prevention, education, increased fire suppression self-sufficiency, and community wildfire protection plans.

• Improve firefighting training programs for the safe, efficient, and effective initial attack and suppression of wildfire."

Thanks for educating us. I know this process has been going on fairly recently (within the last year) as manuals and other publications have been rewritten. Ab.

Good post and thanks for keeping this about "the what, not the who". NorCal isn't even like SoCal. Ab.

Roosevelt IHC- Founded 2001 Kelley (Jones) Melott was the original Supt (01-03), now Chief 2 on Arapaho-Roosevelt.
Dave Hamrick- Unknown start, but was on Alpine before becoming Supt for Roosevelt from 2003 to 2006. Now North Zone FMO on the Arapaho-Roosevelt.

JT

It has been 4 years since my brother Carl died fighting the San Bernardino Valley
fire in Tanker-99 just after his 55th birthday. To all you Pilots who so bravely fly
into danger to save our homes and land, God Bless you all and may God guide
you and be The Wind Beneath your Wings.

Wayne L. Dolbeare

Wayne, I am sorry for your and our loss. I didn't know Karl, but by all accounts, he was a fine man. Readers, here's a pic of Carl from firepirates.com and a link to a little video (mov) file of T-99's take off. Ab.

To ms:
I'm glad you agree that " Nowhere in the CFRs or Forest Service Manual allows us to do anything other than to fight wildfire (NPS does have some all-risk authorities within the park)." And I agree that we could do "much more good we could do for the public if this was within policy." I could also (proudly) stand in the "circle a football field with readers of this forum who can tell you story after story where they saved a life." (But only if you allow a Forester in the line!)

To JerseyBoy:
I think you're correct. I believe this is a R-5/California problem. R-5 is providing more services than they can afford and I believe, beyond the Forest Services's legal authorities. I always been told that "things are different in California". (We also make that claim about Alaska!)

To Casey:
I must respectfully disagree with you. Overall budgets are declining. And I see continuing declines in the future. The tax income just ain't equaling the spending out-flow! It's something we'll all have to live with. And, we're going to have to learn to live with (and use) the "white elephant in New Mexico". I didn't think much of Human Capitol consolidating in New Mexico. But last week, I used the EmpowerHR program for the first time to process 5 personnel actions. It took me a third of the time than it did in the past. Made a few clicks, typed in one line, and click I was done with each individual action. Very easy and painless. Maybe we're a little premature in our condemnation. Time will tell.

As far as consolidating wild-land fire into a "National Wild-land Emergency Services Agency", it will take an Act of Congress. Although the Forest Service is attempting to redefine itself and its mission, establishing another National Agency is well outside its legislative authorities. Plus, all the Interior Agencies will have to be included.

Should Congress ever decide to create a National Agency, just think of all the other issues that could be resolved at the same time. For example:

• Eliminate the portal to portal issue - Just pay the employees like they pay the military....make them salaried employees paid by the month, subject to duty 24/7 and 365 days per year!
• Hazard pay would be substituted for combat pay
• Housing allowances could be provided
• Family medical care could be included in the pay package
• Everyone in the new agency would become "Professional Wild-land Firefighters or EMTs"

Some food for thought and discussion.

AK Old Timer

In response to Dick Mangan's question regarding Paid Firefighters not being allowed to volunteer as firefighters in their community.

Dick, the IAFF has been trying for the longest time to force volunteer fire departments out of business by forcing its career members not to volunteer if they have a paid career fire position. It has been a very hot contention item on the East Coast because of so many urban areas with large operating budgets, lots of stations, and many volunteers instead of career staff. Those communities they target may have a few paid staff, but they want these departments to be all career firefighters because that increases the dues they collect.

I am an IAFF member where I am a career firefighter, and I am a volunteer firefighter where I live. I know many wildland firefighters who do the same thing in their local communities out here in the California and the west, and with few exceptions no one has a problem with "two-hatters" so long as the paid job is not adversely affected by the volunteer job.

The IAFF Union represents career firefighters across the USA and Canada, and assist their members with negotiations of contracts, defending union members against unfair labor practices or punitive actions due to membership, and other duties that help protect firefighters in our local government agencies.

Personally, I think the IAFF President, Harold Schaightberger, is a real slimy character, and his Vice-President, Vince Bollon, is not much better. These guys defend their union members to the hilt if they get targeted by city leaders for union activities or when they call the cities into question when contracts are violated. But they want volunteers out of business across the country because "Volunteers take away possible career jobs from our members". They are UNION ALL THE WAY, and they feel that EVERYONE HAS TO BE UNION TO WORK! I vote against Schaightberger and Bollon every election after an IAFF federal representative died from a car accident shortly after an election, and rather than giving the position to the other challenger to the position Schaightberger and his cronies put in who they wanted, not who should have been selected.

When it comes to how I vote in a political election, Mr. Schaightberger can kiss my rear-end! He has no business telling me or anyone else what I can do off-duty. The IAFF is only interested in what will increase their membership, and creating new career positions by citing things like "public safety" and "2-In/2-Out" to the politicians.

The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF) about 10 years ago mandated that in counties that they were contracted to provide fire protection in, such as Butte, Tehema, Riverside, Madera, Merced, and individual fire districts/departments, that their seasonal and permanent members could not be volunteers in the same Ranger Unit/County they worked in. Many counties had volunteers that served as seasonals during the fire season, and had to chose between volunteering and a paycheck. This did not apply if they worked in one Ranger Unit and lived in another Ranger Unit.

When they took this action volunteering dropped off dramatically from paid personnel. Part of the reason the IAFF and the CDF act this way was a court case in Pennsylvania where a firefighter who was both a paid and volunteer firefighter for the same department got into an argument with the Fire Chief about overtime and work he had done, he took it to court and won, costing the department over $100,000 in backpay to the firefighter. After that, many departments who had paid and volunteer firefighters said you can be one or the other, but not both. CDF took it one step further.

As a Federal firefighter, and having volunteered for two local government fire departments over the last 23 years, so long as my volunteering does not affect my career fire job, then there are no issues. If I get hurt volunteering then I could lose my paid fire job, but that is a risk I accept.

I know many firefighters who work for the US Forest Service and BLM who volunteer on their off-duty hours, and this is their choice and so long as the volunteering does not affect their paid job, the overhead have no say in what someone can do during off-duty hours, unless they want to pay a wildland firefighter to be on Standby for the whole summer.

Schaightberger has no business throwing the issue of "this affects our members under our Constitution". Where I volunteer there are paid and volunteer personnel working together, and it is none of the IAFF business where I or my brother and sister federal firefighters volunteer when off-duty, so long as it does not affect my ability to do my duties at my Career Job.

Anytime Schaightberger steps in and says to me "You can't volunteer because I say so as Union President", I hope he's prepared to step outside when he says that to my face, because although I am a union member, he can "suggest" what he wants me to do as an IAFF member, but he can't make me or anyone else. If he throws me out of the IAFF, my local union will still have to provide me with representation regardless if I am a member or not because the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights say I can vote for who I want in an election of any kind, say what I want with free speech, and associate with who I want.

The California Professional Firefighters, of which I am also a member, has some of the same kind of policies saying they don't what me or any other career firefighter to be volunteers because that costs jobs for paid firefighters. The California State Firefighters Association represents both volunteers and career firefighters on many issues, but does not restrict if I can be both paid and volunteer.

Out of 40 staffed positions where I work, only four of us are volunteers, and my Fire Chief has no issues with it. To him he benefits by the additional training and experience we bring to the job through our volunteering that cost him nothing.

The IAFF predominantly supports Democratic politicians who do their bidding for "contributions" to their campaign funds. But when it comes to individual rights that are attempting to be restricted because 'special interests' want a change, the individual right will always win out. And when such an action slips through, it can be challenged in court as a violation of civil rights.

My volunteer department has paid staff, but just for working hours during the day, and it is all volunteer at night. The paid staff responds as volunteers during night calls and do not receive overtime because they are salaried positions. The volunteers receive no moneys for their time except when responding to a State Responsibility Fire, or a State OES Strike Team assignment.

I have been a federal firefighter almost all of my paid career. None of my federal agencies, wildland or structural, have ever complained about my volunteering, or insisted that I have to quit because I am a federal firefighter. The only time I failed to come into work because of my volunteering was when I had to defend my own home from a local wildland fire, and I was late getting in to work. I had documented proof that my home was threatened, and the District FMO had no problem with that.

I am a strong believer in the Union for Firefighters, but sometimes they go too far in what they tell their members to do. What will they legislate next? What political party I can belong to? What church I can attend? What programs I watch or listen to? What I eat or drink?

The IAFF did not help out the FWFSA when they were associated with them, and had they put the political muscle they have exercised for local government firefighters, they might have added more than 10,000 federal wildland firefighters to their ranks of dues-paying members when we needed them.

If you volunteer in your community and are a full-time or seasonal federal wildland firefighter, you keep doing what makes you happy and serves your interests.

MOC4546

Ken's page

When I read about flashing lights and EMS calls, car wrecks and all-risk response, I am reminded that we did none of those things.

My experience comes from R4/R1/R9, mostly 'shot crew work, a bit of engine work here and there (and a season spent in dispatch while laid up for injury.) Now we had EMTs and first responders on our crew - but how many times did we use that training while not on a fire? Zero. Never an auto accident, never an EMS call. We had no lights on our trucks, and even though the engines in our area did, they never used 'em. Never a need to.

My experience was that of a forestry technician. When we weren't on fire, we did thinning projects, burns, and other forestry work. We'd do projects for every 'ologist on the forest - build fences, paint campgrounds, mark timber, plant trees. I even spent some time sorting aerial photos one year for a department I can't even remember. I had very little in common with a typical structure firefighter. Not that I couldn't have done that sort of work with the appropriate training, but there was simply no need. And there was no public expectation where I worked that we do that sort of thing. We were viewed as other Forest Service personnel - if someone was having a heart attack and flagged down our vehicle, they'd expect we'd have a radio and know how to do CPR, no different than a wildlife biologist or a recreation tech.

And from my experiences, this is what most of the Forest Service is like. California is unique in that there is a combination of year-round fire season, dense population, and professional fire services other than the Forest Service. And what's good for California might not be good for other parts of the country. There's simply no need for 24/7, year round coverage on the Salmon River breaks or in southern Indiana.

All of this, for the most part, worked very well. We'd show up in the spring, train a bit, then knock out fires all summer. The rain and snow would come and the fires would stop. As a 'shot crew we'd max out our 1039, bang 800-1000 or so OTs, and then for those that weren't in school, we'd work late season projects as mentioned above until funding ran out. Those with family obligations would take some of their annual leave that they had acquired over the course of the year, or LWOP (Leave Without Pay), and take a bit of a re-charge before coming back to finish out whatever work needed to be done. Unemployment was for when work ran out and you couldn't find ANOTHER job - framing houses, laying concrete, etc.

Sorry for the long post, but the reality is that the rest of the nation isn't California, and what might be beneficial there would be a gigantic waste of money in other places.

JerseyBoy

Original Ab helped Melissa (bottom photo; and her fundraising calf from the first Ken Perry run) set up their own WFF pledge and donation page, so she's now monitoring the entire pledge show on their server. It's good to turn a good system over to the organization that will benefit all of us. (Every day I have to go look at who's pledged. We don't want her feeling like the "Maytag washer repairman"...) Ab.

JDF

Ab -

My son has been a wildland firefighter in R1 for four years. He first
became a wildland firefighter through the STEP program his first or
second year in college. This is a route JT might want to consider.
Take the general education classes he needs for an AA (make sure
the classes will transfer!!) then check with the college placement
office in January to see if they have information on the STEP program.
Another program he might want to seriously consider is the SCEP
program.

sjs

Background: my experience is/was eight years on a very active South Zone forest and presently my tenth on a So. Cal. county dept. Engines, hot shots, helicopters, blue cards etc. This issue was going on before I started and will go on for quite awhile.

First of all, if employees are Forestry Tech's, why do they pay into Firefighter Retirement? Or the mandatory retirement age? I also found it convenient for the agency to refer to people as "employees" for routine business, but "firefighters" for more important occasions. During the Fall fires of 93, our ENGINE Co. was running around doing structure protection in Glendale, Pasadena and Eaton Cyn. During a break, Mary Jo Lavin, former Director of FAM addressed us at a staging area and had the gall to tell the captains they were resource management supervisors, not even foremen, and not to be called captains, we were resource management modules and not ENGINE Co's....

As far as EMS goes... The intent, (I was one of the first First Responder instructors) was to take care of our own people on the line, at the station or out on the project. Like many other things, with the work ethic many Forest Service FIREFIGHTERS enjoy, it branched out to being properly trained and equipped to to help anyone as the closest emergency responder. I once had a captain have us do traffic control while an injured biker lay in the highway for 30+ minutes until the fire dept. arrived because he was afraid of getting sued...

Many engine co.'s and hotshot crews carry well stocked BLS equipment and trained first responders and EMTs. So what is wrong with them responding and assisting???

With regards to winter work, it seems times have changed. Many of us scrambled to find work for recreation, resources, at the SO. etc. One of the main reasons people went to work for other agencies was they got tired of getting laid off each winter. That was even with several 21 day assignments each summer. Many of the skills we picked up in the winter helped back at the FIRE STATION in the summer.

To finish beating a dead horse, the Forest Service is a full service fire service. Unless people in management and politicians that can effect change such as name recognition, better pay and benefits, work schedules do so, the current issues will continue to get worse and gut the proud agency.

Normbc9, just curious where do you work, because in South Zone, the reputation of the Forest Service is not "slipping".

AK old timer, with all due respect, your philosophy wouldn't work in California. If you were in that car accident, wouldn't you want help asap, whether it is a green, white or purple engine, or crew truck? Someone trained to help provide immediate life saving skills? How do you know the vehicle fire is not a threat to the wildland without responding to and sizing it up? If it's not, do you tell the driver "tuff luck" and return to your project work?

My .02$

Thanks -
JT Knockwood

Did you take a look at this page? 2 and 4 year colleges/universities in fire education
Doesn't look like much in New England. Readers? Any suggestions? Ab.

1 acre timber wires down, started @ 0520, fire contained releasing cooperators.
Sheltered from NE winds, quick knock down due to CNF Delta Staffing (24 hour coverage). Could have been another Laguna Fire.

AK OldTimer, nope I don’t think a 365/24 service is where we need to be nationwide now or even within our lifetime. However, if we exclude ideas or choose not to consider them we are providing a disservice to the public. You just made my point way better then I ever could. Nowhere in the CFRs or Forest Service Manual allows us to do anything other than to fight wildfire (NPS does have some all-risk authorities within the park). However I can circle a football field with readers of this forum who can tell you story after story where they saved a life. Let me repeat that; “Forestry Technicians have saved a life, actually saved hundreds of lives over the years.” They perform because of the medical skills they learned on and off the job, because of the fire funds used to purchase medical supplies and because the dispatch office responded them based on Chief Officer preplanning direction. Forests spend more on medical training, medical supplies and the SCBA program than we do on chainsaws and hand tools. Just think how much more good we could do for the public if this was within policy. Should we give those dollars and those saved lives back? You said it AK and I agree, WOW. The mission must be formally changed and federal fire management must be reorganized.

I know many on the ground who do not want change (both old and young) and how can one argue with the excellent comments by "tired and annoyed late season hotshot". Many like him work so hard and give up so much each fire season. His to-the-point post truly makes one think about life’s priorities.

Look above at the National Transformation activities of the Forest Service, where they are carving out a Line Officer dominated Forest Service. We must have our say. We must have a Federal Fire Service that is progressive and always looking to advance. The national force of fed firefighters supported by a real mission for the good of the public would be a powerhouse. An organization with a strong IA workforce. An organization made up of Type 1 and 2 Incident Command Teams with strong operation and planning abilities. An organization with the best hand crews on the earth. An organization with fire engines able to maneuver on the tightest of logging roads to fight fire or start an IV or grab the AED to give that heart attack victim a second chance at life.

At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter what I envision or your alternate visions of what we should be doing. At the end of the day it's the public's expectations of us. Not all of us will agree with those public expectations. Then we will be forced to accept them or move on. However, I believe this is the future and having a progressive organization just may save our jobs from the competition, from those offering to provide a more dynamic service.

Usually in society and especially in government, something bad needs to happen before we see change. Something will happen and change will occur for us after it’s scrolling across the bottom of your CNN channel. It’s only a matter of time. I simply ask each of you to do your part to make change happen by educating the public. Volunteer to go to those County Fairs and community events. Show the public and local community leaders the hose, the fire tools, oh and yes those items carried in those trauma kits. Educate the WO Old Guard who surrendered to the voices of political pressure about the reality of what’s happening on the ground. In a democracy, the public are best at forcing change to laws and authorities as witnessed by the security changes since 9/11. Reorganization of federal fire management authorities is possible. Educate the American people, who, when given all the facts, want a strong (real) All-Risk Federal Fire Service “Fed Fire”.

I will close my comments with something I saw hanging on the wall behind the desks of my local IHC Superintendent and Hotshot Captains.

“The galleries are full of critics. They play no ball. They fight no fights. They make no mistakes because they attempt nothing. Down in the arena are the doers. They make mistakes because they try many things. The man (or woman) who makes no mistakes lacks boldness and the sprit of adventure. He is the one who never tries anything. He is the brake in the wheel of progress. And yet it cannot be truly said he makes no mistakes, because his biggest mistake is the fact he tries nothing, except criticize those who do things”. – David M. Shoup – General, United States Marine Corp.

Get in that arena people, be progressive!

ms

CDF was run by professionally trained Foresters too and they did their level best to hide from the fact that the law identified that agency as having the responsibility to “aggressively attack and suppress unwanted wild fires.” I kept hearing about the class of ’48. I soon found out that was the UC Berkeley Forestry School class and they were for the most part running the daily CDF operations. Nothing happened without their OK. Then it was the class of “52 and so forth. The presence of fire contracts with local governments became the major portion of their activity and so today we have trained Fire Service Administration professionals running the outfit and the Foresters are now operating the Resources management Section.

Until the Forest Service is reorganized you will still feel the influence of trained professionals who like the power and prestige their position offers in this organization. Look at the private sector and tell me where there are trained Foresters making the money and benefits the government career offers. I don’t think we deal with bad people but they sure are misguided and short sighted too. You desperately need professionally trained Fire Service Administrators at the helm of the Fire organization, not a group of resource managers.

The reputation of the Forest Service is slipping badly with the local government fire agencies and the fact that the newest top level R-5 staff is refusing to work with them is just digging the chasm deeper and wider too. The Forest Service did have contracts to furnish year long fire protection on the Angeles and Cleveland years ago and both worked very well. Both were with local government agencies and all of a sudden someone at the top in Washington DC put a stop to that a couple of decades ago.

Normbc9

"The potential for large fire will remain low to very low over the region through next weekend. Even though there will be locally strong and gusty northeast to east winds over parts of Southern California this Sunday morning, fuels will remain to moist for the threat of large fire to increase significantly. Expect very light initial attack over the region through next weekend."

<snip expletive acronym> Where are the moist fuels?......... Live New 52% (Critical)...... Live Old 44% (Critical)..... Winds..... 25-35 gusts to 50 mph (Critical).... 10 hr.... less than 5 (Critical)...... 1 hr.... less than 4 (Critical)..... Any problems seen with "intel" ????....... All looks good from Vallejo and DC or folks who have to answer to them....... That is the <snip expletive> that kills folks..

Lobotomy

Well said.

viejo

Boy the times have changed. Tired and Annoyed, you got to be home 15 days this season, and you
are pushing a grand of O.T., good on you. I wonder if you were around pre-2002 when we stayed
gone 21 days and longer than that. Or how 'bout when there were no work rest rules. Poor little
firefighters, you are so abused. Take some of your annual if you need a break, but work for a
living, don't suck of the unemployment system if you have any alternative. It is supposed to be a
safety net, not a hammock.

I never wanted to get laid off when I was a temp or w.a.e. Working was too much fun. And when I
did finally get laid off. I went out and found whatever work I could, private or USFS. Thinning
trees in the snow, marking timber in the snow, working the potato sheds in the snow or I went to
school in the snow. If those options did not work out, then I would sign up for un-enjoyment and
keep bugging the overhead till they hired me back as soon in early spring as possible. Somehow
my wife and I have raised 3 kids and had a reasonably fun time doing so, skiing, boating,
coaching sports and taking a few vacations.

Have some pride. Don't be part of the entitlement crowd. You all should be thankful that you have
employment. I am kind of sick of all the whining about how you have to work to much or too hard,
but at least it's better than reading about how you don't get paid as good as CDF or there aren't
any fires. I guess those threads will start again after Christmas.

signed

"Wish I Never Put the Hose Down, Wish I Never Got Old"
That's a Neil Young line if you didn't know it.

HAW HAW the threads are re-occurring, but I always learn something. Lots of good career info in this one. I've been posting it on the Hotlist discussion because the Hotlist has such great search features. Ab.

ms:

I agree with your conception of why the tax payers expect the USFS to respond to their emergency needs. Color notwithstanding, if you put emergency response lights on a vehicle, you have just converted that vehicle from an everyday means of transportation into a public service vehicle. The public expects...and has every right to do so... that vehicle to carry people and equipment to help them in their time of need. If you put a decal on the side of that vehicle that identifies it as "Engine # something" from the "Snagpatch N.F." it only strengthens the publics perception that the vehicle is in fact a Fire Engine. Fire Engines carry the good guys and gals into battle with the Red Devil... and most everybody teaches their children that if they ever need help, they can ALWAYS call the Fire Department.

S. T. Bear may only have a shovel but by golly, he uses that shovel to help him when he goes to fires, hazardous materials spills, medical aids, T. C.'s, cats in trees, watercraft accidents, deliver babies, and on and on and on.

Those nice people who wear one of his hats... and just happen to be packing a .9 mm sidearm...aren't going to tell Joe Sixpak and his family that they aren't going to help them out in time of need because they are only an "ologist" and need to get on with their job of counting fish... are they ?

All of the players in the alphabet game...NPS, BIA, BLM, USFS, etc., etc...wear their Departments' uniform proudly...as well they should...and they realize that when they ARE in uniform, the public has the absolute right to expect them to perform their duties accordingly and professionally. At the very least, they expect the employee to be able to perform Basic First Aid, CPR and the ability to dial 911.

If these agencies continue to proclaim that they are an "all risk" public service agency, it is reasonable for the general public to expect those individual employees to accept the responsibilities that come with representing that agency.

Do it with pride and professionalism...it may not say that in the duty statement, but that's what the public has come to expect.

And they're correct in believing that....

Copter 100

Although I appreciate Fuels Officer's commitment to the Service by "bleeding green" and for you correctly pointing out the importance of involvement of all staffs within the Forest Service, including the fire "service" staff. I've spent 7 years teaching Firefighters the importance of integration with other staffs on the unit. This is a very important aspect of our agency one that is overlooked by both fire and non-fire employees.

However, I disagree with you on the mission or at least what the mission should be or what is perceived by the public as what the mission is. The public expects emergency care by federal responders (a fire service) when they visit our Nat Parks, BLM lands and Nat Forests.

The public--> The people who just happen to fund our paychecks every 2 weeks expect a level of emergency responder service. The public is the family driving home on the east fork of San Gabriel Cyn on the ANF who have a head on traffic collision. That family expects someone to respond. The East Fork Forest Service engine is 3 miles away, the LA County engine is 43 miles ways. The only dam mission that family cares about is that green engine, 3 miles away is equip with BLS and ALS. If that was my family, I would want and will pay for with my tax dollars medically trained Forest Service employees to give my kid every chance to live that golden hour. I could care less about what your mission is unless it references federal emergency first responder medical mgt. You can apply this scenario to the sledding accident on the BDF or the drowning/CPR in progress medical aid at the forks of the Salmon River. I want my Federal Firefighters trained and funded year round to provide medical care to the citizens visiting federal lands.

Makes sense doesn't it? If Grandpa's having a heart attack at Robinson Flat Campground on the TNF and when that Green engine comes around the corner wouldn't you want them to equipped with every field medical tool available?

I think most of the public would be shocked if they knew how we play this hide and seek game with our so called "mission" and shocked what our mission does not include. The American public would fund what ever it takes to have the best field medical capability available on fed engines, including paying for Paramedics, including paying for 24 hour staffing of engines in high population areas that surround federal lands.

Fuels Officer, we are a fire service, not because if what our mission says, but we are a fire service because of what we do and more importantly what the public perception is of what we do. The Boy Scout Leader out in the woods doesn't say; "look kids here comes the Forestry Technicians and the 401 college educated-Fire Mgt Specialist". He says, "Here come our FIREFIGHTERS" !

We are the Fire and Emergency Service Branch of the Forest Service. One of a few different staffs within the Forest Service, all playing an important part for the greater good of the Forest Service and, more importantly, the visiting public.

Times have changed people and we, our WO "transformers" and Congress, better get the mission in line with the expectations the public has for us.

ms

Young and Dumb in R1,

Some things to consider:

Before you make the jump to the apprentice program you need to consider just how much you want the coveted "Career Status". My experience has been do what ever it takes to get "Career Status" if what you want is a career in the federal government. In the 80's some folks took clerical jobs as a way to get career status. And understanding the clerical world of an organization is not a bad thing if you're headed to a managerial position. I also know people that took career seasonal fire job during the national fire plan buildup so they could apply to ologist positions. However, federal agencies are not the only place to have a career in natural resource management. There are state and local government organizations, NGOs (like the TNC) and private industry. (NGO=Non Governmental Organizations; TNC=The Nature Conservancy)

You have already mentioned spending 2 years sitting through S courses. In 10 years would you consider that time squandered?

Do you want a lower level management position? Or do you want to be far enough up the chain to be able to make meaningful decisions or have significant input into decisions? The masters will help when your looking to move to higher graded positions.

Are you set on the big green machine as the only place to work or would you consider other agencies? (we do like stealing apprentices from the USFS) If you're set on a career in fire with USFS, hard to beat the apprentice deal.

How important is having the "benefits" offered by a career position?

In closing I would say, find your passion and go for it.

Small Agency FMO

I don't want to age myself, but "back when" many --if not most of the folks-- that were 13/13 or 18/8 or 25/1 wanted to work. That's right, they'd rather work than be on unemployment. Back then there was always some kind of project work (erosion control, recreation maintenance, stacking sticks, building stuff, .......). That was when I got most of my stuff done. As a matter of fact, I use to keep several smokejumpers employed until Christmas or longer. I only remember 2 or 3 folks that didn't work, because one taught school and the others went to SZ for work. Anyway, I don't see why some people think they are entitled to or are owed unemployment benefits if you can work and maybe get a little regular OT if something happens. Trust and believe, something does happen somewhere every year. We are gonna get it here in the South - Southeast if it doesn't really rain soon. That's my "dime" on the subject!

-=RADAR=-

Here's another link to the AP story.
www.elkodaily.com/articles/2007/10/05/news/breaking_news/busting10.txt

Forest Service advisor killed in Afghanistan
October 5, 2007

Steven Thomas Stefani, of Wells, Nev., a rangeland specialist with the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest headquartered in Sparks, was killed in Afghanistan Thursday when a convoy he was riding in was hit by an explosion near Ghazni.

Stefani, a Forest Service employee, was working as a volunteer agricultural advisor on a Provincial Reconstruction Team for the USDA Foreign Agriculture Service in Afghanistan.

Condolences. Ab.

Fish

• Appointment Status (Permanent or Permanent Intermittent) and
• Job Status (Full-time vs. Part-time)

~~~~~~~~
Permanent status, whether PFT or PCS (Permanent Career Seasonal) allow the employer to set and adjust work schedules based upon funding and work available. PCS employees are expected, and codified by law, to work whenever employment is offered and funded.

Neither PFT or PCS employees can be changed to part-time (less than 40 hrs.) without their consent as others have expressed concerns about.

Neither morally should a fire leader keep folks from caring for their family and utilizing unemployment benefits that MAY pay better than base pay checks in the fall/winter/spring months.
~~~~~~~~

/s/ Want to make sure all points are heard so folks understand the true reasons why folks don't want apprentice jobs.... or why a 13/13 appointment.............. or an 18/8 job........... Most often, the leadership isn't listening.

It's easy to say "the leadership isn't listening." I'd like to hear some solutions proposed that are a legal alternative. My take is that the leadership do not have alternatives. If you're a leader, make some solid suggestions that can be implemented. Ab.

No one has said "it's against the law." They have said that the employee must agree to the extension. Of course if they don't agree, they are basically quitting and are not eligible for unemployment. Ab.

Back in the mid 80's I went on a spring fire assignment to North Carolina. We loaded up on a C-141 in Denver and flew to Knoxville TN. Someone on one of the crews remarked that it was "Gram Rudman firefighting" to use a military cargo plane to transport crews. Our gear was strapped in the center of the cargo hold along with some "porta potties". Our seats lined the side of the plane and were made of webbing. There were two arctic boys with ice water and 4 guys in green nomex flight suits that served as stewards. We road school buses from Knoxville to Ashville NC. Anyway one of the persons on my crew was from Ashville. She filled us in on the local vocabulary. Here is something to add to your list:

Fir: the distance to the Far. "How fir is it to the far?"

Midwest Fire Guy

-MJ

ht

What I was referring to is this:
We have temps that won't put in for apprentice jobs because they don't want to commit, (even though there's no more service agreement),
We have GS-5's who qualify for GS-6 18-8's that won't apply because they want the winter off....
We have GS-6 Demos open to anybody who qualifies, and no takers...repeatedly...

So there ARE jobs... in other Regions, a friend of mine who is a Zone FMO cannot find people to apply to Perm or 18-8 jobs.

When the Cal Fire vacancies came up, I posted them in our office so folks could see them and apply if they wanted to... So you can't say that people that can help do not. I counsel folks on how to promote all the time, and I'm not one of the mandatory 'Mentors'... I go down to Mc Clellan every round to try and fill Perm jobs, and we always come up empty.

When I was trying to get permanent, I went on my own time in the winter to all the classes to become ENGB and CRWB on my own dime....Then took jobs in locations far from home just to get in the door...
So, If someone really wants in, there are ways....If you are looking for a longer tour at one of the lower grades, just lateral to another Region for a couple of years, then come back...R-5 is in a declining budget loop, and this is not likely to change.

Remember, people at the District level can not change or lengthen tours...and usually not Forest level folks, either...so this is all over our heads, too, even if we try to help....don't shoot the messenger, I'm trying to help folks get jobs...

-MJ

13/2 & 18/2 are just another way of saying 13/13 and 18/8. What they're
referring to is the government option to extend the person another 2 pay
periods beyond the guaranteed appointment. Employee does not have any
choice in this, it's a government option, and is spelled out in the
seasonal employment agreement that all perm seasonals sign when they get
their job.

TC

Appointments do NOT have to be tied to pay grade. There are 26/0 full time, year around GS-3s. There are 18/8 GS-9 Helitack Sups. Don't tie in grade with appointments, they are not necessarily linked. There are no 18/2 (doesn't add up to 26 pay periods).

Beating a dead horse:

It is not legal to require an employee to work beyond their appointment, like I said earlier, without the employee agreeing to it. If an employee wants to work more or less than their appointment, the government must agree to it. If the government wants to work the employee more or less than their appointment, they must agree to it. So, if you have a wintertime job commitment such as working at a ski resort, you can tell the USFS, "no thanks, see you in May" if they want you to work more than your 13 pay periods.

Mellie/Lori:

You are right on. A temp is basically laid off with no prospect on being hired back in the future. There is no guarantee of rehire in the summer, so UI should be readily available if they can't find other work. As far as permanent seasonals go, just like MJ stated earlier, if you explain to the Unemployment agency that: you will be returning to work with the government in spring, you have a two week training in late winter and you are having difficulty finding a potential employer that can accept the fact that you don't know when you will start and you may have to attend a couple of random trainings mid-winter, they will usually not make the search for work mandatory on your two week UI claims.

Other truths on this thread:

Not working in the winter for the feds is difficult because you have to pay for your insurance later and no money is going into your TSP, worth considering if you do turn down an extended appointment.

It's up to you. Know your rights and make the decision that is best for you. Like the other old timers said, do what you can to work as long as you can in to the winter for the feds, and this eventually pays off.

Other terms for Unemployment Benefits or UI: The Governor's Ski Team, Fun Enjoyment.

Signed
Goodsup.

I heard someone, maybe a R5 HR person refer to that. Is there also a 13/2?

Todd

I have nothing to add to it. It is all true, DON'T GET CAUGHT UP IN THE
LESS THAN 40 HOUR SITUATION just because you want to work, and
for FERS folks, try to work full time (year around) for your TSP. It is your
retirement. Unemployment does not pay into TSP.

Rick

26/0 are GS-8 and 7
18/8 also known as 18/2 are GS-6
13/13 are GS-5 and below

As I understand it, the only 13/13 positions in R5 are the Apprentices,
plus a lookout here and there, at least on my forest.

Eyes on the Woods

So you're being required to do a 26/0 job on a 13/13 appointment?

It is good for retirement, but this all should be worked out ahead of time to be fair.

Mellie

It's 0324 and I've got 6 minutes to do this and get on the road to catch another flight, I'd like to just say thanks for a job well done. The leadership and professionalism shown Monday was beyond outstanding. Del Rosa, Big Bear, E12, E16 and especially to JRod and Crew 534 I don't know what else to say, you are true hero's. To Chief Dennen and his folks, thanks for being at there with us when the helicopters arrived and the support you all gave to me and the other BCs/DCs at the hospital and at the accident site.

I'll never understand how a Forest Leadership meeting was more important than eight injured firefighters, be it a broken nail or broken leg, nothing should stop our own top brass from being there for the troops. No excuses needed or wanted. I get the priorities and understand where we stand. Fire Restrictions over Firefighters. Dudes and Dudettes, I'm not top brass but I will be there for you always no matter what. I went way over time, now I've got to haul a$s to catch the flight.

Betty A
aka BatGrl12

Thanks to all who helped on that rescue. Happy traveling, BatGrl12. May you all and the bagpipes shine for us at that east coast memorial event. Ab.

Unemployment for seasonal < 26/0 tours (not 1039) hr appointments used to be an easy choice. Before the FERS retirement, us old folks were on the CSRS retirement plan. We received credit for our "off" time just like we were working 26/0. When we retired we got 2.5% of our high three X how many years for the 1st 20 years & 2%/ yr. after, including the lay off time. When CA weekly benefits went up to over $400/ week most of us in less than 26/0 tours took the lay off happily, as it did not affect our final pension calculations.

FERS is a different animal. It is extremely import to get the 26/0 tour.
The FERS retirement depends on your ability to max out the TSP (Thrift Savings Plan) and receive the Agency matching contribution.

You still receive your FERS 1.3% FF credit for service for lay off, but losing the matching TSP monies over many years will be critical to your final pension worth. If offered off season employment take it. The one big point is: Never ever accept a less than 40 hr tour/week. If you are kept on past your appointment never be put into a part-time tour. NEVER!! This is a tour where you are guaranteed less than 40/week. If this happens, when you retire, you will only receive credit for the actual time worked whereas if you were laid off, you would receive credit for the full 40 week.

This happened to me and several others because we had a FMO who did not want to pay us UI benefits (Unemployment Insurance) and decided to work us 24 per week just to get us off the UI roles. Since the FS was offering work, UI said either work or go hungry because if you are offered work NO UI!. We were 13/13's and this went on for 5 years. So when I retired instead of receiving FULL credit for my off season I only received credit for actual hours worked. (24 vs.40). That was a huge penalty because of the way OPM calculates the PT (Part Time) hours. I lost 10% month in my annuity. That's a permanent reduction.. you do the math but over a retirement lifetime, a significant loss of $$. If this ever comes up in your career, file a grievance.. do something. WE had no idea of the consequence of PT work until we were near retirement. OPM could hot help us because they can't change law. Don't let it happen to you.

Fish

Thanks very much for this critical information. I added some explanations for acronyms. Ab.

GN

Also, I want everyone to know that if you are disabled on the job, you can file for PSOB benefits. I don't think anyone knows that and I am trying to spread the word. I know a couple of people that it could have really helped, but there are time limits. I'm hoping that it can be fought and won as they were never informed by their forest that this was available to them.

So, just some facts. Hope it helps.

Lori

Thanks Lori. The bold and underline in the last PSOB paragraph are mine. Ab.

Your comments are accurate and understandable. I have no issue with
accepting the terms of the multi-page contract I signed, including a one
sided mobility agreement.

However, your comment about us not accepting a PFT appointment
implies that we have a choice. Where are the forest service Jobs that are
full time at the lower levels? where are the Forest service 26/0 or even
18/8 GS 3, 4, 5 fire jobs? I am one that would gladly take such a position.

*But then there are the People all around me that would scream if I
got it because I haven't served as much time as they have.*

You Offer us advice on a less-than-perfect system and then criticize us for
doing our best for making it come out slightly in our favor.

P.S. If we don't, who will? Our supervisor that only sees us on an
average of a month a year, as we bounce from crew to crew to meet our
apprentice needs? Or maybe it is our Mandatory mentor who someone from
somewhere chose for us, Based on some questionnaire. Or maybe It is those
who were hired outside of the apprentice program and it took them twice as
long to get their GS-5 as it takes us now. Those exceptionally have great
positive attitudes toward us. (sarcasm intended).

I apologize for the rant. However, this topic is one of great interest, as
it is my life.

I stumbled on this job by accident and for whatever reason have become
very passionate about this job and would like to have a career. If I was not
passionate, I don't think I would have stayed with an agency which treats
its people the way this one does.

My last comment I'll say before I step off my soap box is this:
It has been my experience that those who want to help, don't have the position
of authority to do so, and those that have the position of authority don't want
to help.

Trying to make a career

Here's what I understand about permanent fire hires (Permanent Full Time or PFT), whose category of employment is named by their work status, or pay periods on / off the job:

There are 26 pay periods per year. A pay period is 2 weeks. All employees that are hired by the Forest Service as permanent employees are PFTs. That includes

• 26/0 (26 on and 0 off), that is, they work full time year round, have a work status of 26/0 and are paid for every one of the 26 pay periods and get benefits.
• 18/8 (18 on and 8 off), permanent seasonal but work full time (when in work status).
• 13/13 (13 on and 13 off). 13/13 means actually employed and work full time for a minimum of half the pay periods possible, thus permanent seasonal.

When I asked her about the difference between 13/13 and temporary hire (1039 hours), Lori said

Unemployment for a seasonal employee - 18/8 or 13/13 - does not require them to look for work while they are laid off as they have a permanent position to which they will be returning. Temp employees must look for work, just like anyone else on unemployment.

How exactly does health insurance and benefits like retirement play out?

The hiring and retention issue has been around for longer than me. Here were Greg Greenhoe's suggestions from 1999.

So how is anyone supposed to survive on half a year's pay? Oh yeah, Overtime... What if there is no overtime? What if someone gets hurt and can't work the rest of their life? OT doesn't figure into OWCP calculations.

It's been 5 years or so since I tried to figure this all out. I'm sure there are others reading who have the same questions.

Mellie

AK Old Timer

Two versions of this almost 16 minute video are linked below. Both are Windows Media Audio/Video files. The video includes the briefing and gives a feel for how the ICP staff handled the experience at the time.

Smaller/ Lower quality:
First is a more compressed version that OA made of the original video AK Old Timer sent in.
It is still very large at 39 megabytes:
www.wildlandfire.com/videos/cascade.wmv

Huge, but Higher quality:
Here's the original that AK Oldtimer sent in. Do not try this if you have dialup.
HUmonGous FILE at 228 megabytes, but higher quality:
www.wildlandfire.com/videos/CascadeFireICPBurnBy-August13,2007.wmv

We'll see how this works. Many thanks, AK Old Timer. Ab.

It's linked from this page: www.fire.blm.gov/training/twt/sect_training_curriculum.htm

Ab.

-MJ

I just talked with Dad (Dale Jarrell) about the 9/26 post on the "Rogue IC." He said that he doesn't remember John Russell being in Yellowstone, so Dale is the only Rogue that I know of (refusing to work with Area Command until he got a Delegation of Authority). I'm glad to know that others view him to be "remarkable" - I know I do :)

He also said that he became a Type 1 IC at the age of 44, so he doesn't qualify as the youngest, but he thinks he is one of the first ICs (vs Fire Bosses). He and John Russell were the first to teach the "new" ICS system at Marana.

Terrie

Todd

I wanted to point out an angle of this that has yet to be mentioned. Since the Forest Service has chosen to use the Apprenticeship as a hiring tool (another topic altogether), it has changed a lot of other things. As a person that has gone through the program (with no fire experience prior), I have had to balance the off-season needs of the program ie.. academy and other miscellaneous training through the winter.

I would challenge anyone who is on a high horse to

• try to find a temporary off-season job in some of the rural, economically depressed areas that we call home, much less
• tell an off-season employer "i need a month off here and two weeks there and the government can call me back to work anytime they want."

I don't want to talk for other people, but I have the experience of having no choice and I didn't enjoy it. But on the
other hand, why should I be made to feel guilty by myself or anyone else for having to play by Uncle Sam's rules.

I think sometimes people forget the hoops we ask a lot of young people (apprentices) to go through to earn the privilege of working year round for the pay you 26/0 permanents make. Yet our young people sit as a second class to both 1049 seasonals and permanents alike. I have many feelings about the apprentice program and using one tool to meet multiple objectives, however that is, as I say, another topic.

My ultimate point is this: if we want to retain the people we are pouring all of this time and money into, maybe we should consider how the other half has to live.

Trying to make a career

What has been the end of commitment date for aircraft in SoCal in past years?

Noname

PS on seeing the post just posted: Goodsup

Then why in the past even when there is work... to take care of their folks they did lay us off with unemployment... even though there was work? They use it as a selling point and would make good on it regardless of the work load. I know it's within their rights but the unpredictability is bad business.

Thanks for the official word, though. :)

National Policy: You agree to work 13 pay periods. The government agrees to hire you for 13 pay periods. If you want to work more or less the government has to agree to that. If they want you to work more or less you have to agree to that. So, anything different than 13 pay periods must be agreed upon by both parties. As far as unemployment goes, you are not allowed to receive unemployment if an employer is offering you work. So, you don't have to work beyond 13 pay periods, but you can't collect unemployment if work is offered.

From,
Goodsup.

I will not post flames or rants regarding the air resources severity letter.

I want facts and any information that constitutes Lessons Learned from past events. I want it in a civil and logical way. I understand that Santa Ana winds, the 2003 firestorm, and use of ERCs in the letter (instead of BI), the models used to arrive at the decision to cost cut, and the distinction between "severity/non-severity stations" are important facts that need to be listed and discussed.

Contributors, please lay out your points as the leaders and professionals you are, so they can go on record and we can potentially point to a better, more informed choice.

Can't totally agree with laid offs comments but I will say one thing. If you expect to get a paid winter vacation after fire season and are not willing to finish the job you started go find another job. The problem you seem to have has a pretty simple remedy. Finish the season out, earn a bit more money, MAYBE get a late season assignment which are always the best, then settle in fat and happy on the agency's dime. You might even try to supplement that rocking chair money by finding some part time employment. Lastly, update your resume so when those 18/8,20/6,or PFT jobs come out you can get yourself out of the seasonal lay-off cycle. Unless you happen to be the kind of person that enjoys the time off which there is nothing wrong with.

I was in the same shoes as you with a 13/13 appointment several years ago and never asked to be laid off early. You might find that being a bitter ender will actually get you more work in the long run.

FMO Joeboy

Ab's for the most part I would agree with--> Bummed the rains have come but now I get to go on to other adventures in life.

I would like to see more of our ranks (Senior FF and above) with 26/0 appointments. With the only exception or understanding to allow employees to return to college during the off season without retirement penalties. I didn't feel right the one year I took unemployment after I got laid off. For the next 3 years as a temporary FF I worked, however I worked for the Forest Service as a Rec Tech, or within the Engineering Staff. This was prior to the 1039 hr appointment started. This was also before unemployment benefits paid so much.

We pay our Federal Firefighters so little, they make more on unemployment in Ca then getting a base check from the Feds. That is the truth and that is pathetic. Although as policy I disagree with the fact that unemployment handed out so freely. It should be for the truly needy and those with families.

However, how can you blame our 13/13's for taking unemployment when Uncle Sammy gives them 11-14 bucks an hour to be a FIREFIGHTER. Tell me of another fire service agency that pays a Firefighter 11-14 bucks an hour? Tell me of any police agency that pays it's Police Officers 11-14 bucks an hour? It's disgusting and disgraceful to Americas largest group of emergency responders.

Full time Professional Firefighters in an appropriate work series with a living wage (not unemployment) needs to be addressed.

ms

Ab,

We lost a good one yesterday. (10/1/07)

Steve Robinson, Crater Lake National Park Fire Lookout, long-time
naturalist, and friend passed away from a short but valiant battle with
pancreatic cancer.

He embraced life in song and with patience, stood up for what he believed
in, and lived as we all should, with compassion.

For those of us lucky to have known him, he'll always be singing, and
watching his forest.

www.caringbridge.org/visit/rangersteve
www.parkrangersteve.com

Brad Reed
Fire Management Officer
Crater Lake National Park

Thanks for sharing Steve with us. I enjoyed browsing his music and seeing family photos. In the midst of sadness can be celebration for a life well lived. Ab.

Date: September 28, 2007
Subject: Contract Extensions for Exclusive Use Aviation Resources
To: Forest Supervisors, Forest Fire Management Officers

As we deal with preparedness planning for FY08, cost effective and timely coordination of our aviation resources during this fall fire season is paramount. At this time, the Region does not plan to extend any aviation exclusive use contracts beyond their scheduled Mandatory Availability Period with the exception of Firewatch N109Z and H509 located in South Zone and H510 located in North Zone.

This decision is based on:

1. Current ERCs;
2. Present and predicted weather;
3. Mandatory Availability Period of the additional National Helicopter Contracts;
4. Mandatory Availability of current Airtanker fleet;
5. Programmed normal attrition (MAP) dates of our exclusive use Helicopters/ATGS aircraft and airtankers.

In most PSAs, ERCs have dropped significantly with recent moisture. If predicted weather arrives, ERCs will continue to be at or below average. If predicted weather does not come in, ERCs will rebound and trend up above average depending on North and East wind events. We will continue to assess the need for these resources through the fall season.

/s/ Willie R. Thompson (for)
ED HOLLENSHEAD
Director, Fire and Aviation Management

cc: <snip, a long list>

www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan

Last week, the Pedigree Poultry farm, about 40 kilometres north of Regina,
reported it had avian flu. While not the deadly H5N1 that first jumped from
chickens to humans in Hong Kong in 1997, the strain is the highly pathogenic
H7N3.

http://canadianpress.google.com
U.S. border agents seize hunters' birds amid Canada's bird flu scare

U.S. Customs officials in Minnesota and North Dakota seized more than 4,100
birds from hunters re-entering the United States from Canada following an
outbreak of avian flu at a commercial chicken farm near Regina, Canada.

OK ok What is wrong here? Is there a problem with people working year 'round? If one job cant satisfy the momentery needs that one has to themselves and their family, then what is wrong with finding another job or more work? I kind of take it personally when someone is expecting unemployment. It is meant to help someone out until they find other employment. Not as a fall back every winter. We need to take a deep look and think about why some us in this line of work are whining about lack of pay and seasonal work! Do you hear a school teacher complain when summer comes around? Most of the time I would venture NO. They look forward to the break, especially if they have budgeted their money, and if they are short or perhaps bored, they find summer employment (some of them as fellow FF). Other people from other professions read this board, lets not give them the impression that we are all whiners!,but rather winners. If the pay isn't good enough, move! change profes sions! We all have to be responsible to our families and society. (ps don't become a contractor as even though the daily rate may seem high from the outside... it is only TEMPORARY work at best and we are to say the least very disliked by our southern R5 brothers) When one becomes a Contractor or AD it is known to ourselves that fire is not our main source of income. ok I will try not to make this a contractor vent. But guys, all I see lately is we don't get paid enough or we don't get respect or we don't get enough assignments or enough hours, well welcome to the real world.
signed
Bummed the rains have come but now I get to go on to other adventures in life.

Only a little vent, eh? Ab.

OC

Here it is: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/jomt.htm Ab.

(registration may be required to read this article; it is free to do so.)

GK

I didn't have to sign in. Maybe tomorrow. Ab.

"Hey hon, you know all of that time I promised you and the kids in the winter, because I had neglected you so much in the summer? Well too bad cause I'm being bullied into working all winter."

There are few reasons for me to stay with this agency but one of the biggest ones was that I could have a 13-13 appointment with benefits and get laid off for the winter. That certainly made up for the complaint less commitment I give them all fire season. This is opposite of what they told me when they talked me into signing on perm/seasonal.

Any input would be appreciated.

Overit

I'd be curious to know if other regions have the same regulations. Is this national policy? Ab.

Senate Adopts Significant A-76 Reform

Washington, DC – Late yesterday, the United States Senate adopted an amendment to the fiscal year 2008 Defense Authorization bill that would make several revisions to the A-76 public-private competition process. Together, these changes would do much to level the playing field for federal workers when competing against private contractors for the same government work. The amendment was sponsored by Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) and had 10 cosponsors. The amendment passed with a 51-44 vote. The Senate later passed the Defense Authorization bill as amended by a 92-3 vote.

The A-76 amendment would do the following:

• Exclude health care and retirement costs from the A-76 cost comparison process.
• Eliminate automatic recompetition of work performed by federal employees under A-76.
• Establish equitable appeal rights for all federal employees.
• Eliminate OMB outsourcing quotas.
• Require the establishment of guidance to allow federal employees to compete for new work.
• Establish in law a competition requirement for non-DoD agencies which is identical to what is permanent law for DoD.

“The rules governing A-76 have not been fair to federal workers,” said NFFE President Richard N. Brown. “These changes will do a lot to eliminate some of the egregious advantages contractors enjoy when competing against federal employees for government work.”

“We are happy to see that the Senate did not back away from addressing this important issue,” said Brown. “When contractors are given an unfair advantage over federal workers, it is the tax-payers that pay for it in the end. The playing field should be level.”

###

viejo

butler2-willow-perimeters-esri

I agree on Jeff's contributions... Ab.

Thanks again,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Helicopter 534 crew buggy

The cab broke loose on the way down the hill. The crew box stopped
facing up sitting on the back doors.

ALWAYS WEAR YOUR SEAT BELTS!

ARFF

Glad people were. Ab.

Fantastic news. Ab.

Same as the article below...

Cool pic. Ab.

Ab.

Way to donate or pledge
Pledge list to track donations

Ken's Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1986

Yes there were jumpers prior to the US starting WW2. I recently Read an article in
Fire Management Today from this fall about smokejumpers. My question to the group
is does any one know of any historical documents about Major William Lee who went
on to be General and commanded the 101st Division? He appears in early
Smokejumpers stories.

Thanks

Bushman82

thanks viejo

T2 teams are also often called because of less complexity as well. Ab.

Oh well, maybe that one was too "secret" a project. I really think Jim Ott the webmaster for CIIMT 1 was one of the most innovative early web people. He didn't have a project, he just did it and taught himself as he did. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2047

Here's one old article on the Willow:
California blaze contained, but fire scorches merchants' wallets
www.cnn.com/US/9909/05/wildfires.tourism/

Joe Stutler, a commander with the U.S. Forest Service, told them that with so many wildfires burning throughout the West, firefighters and equipment had been scarce. Nevertheless, they saved 1,950 structures in the San Bernardino Mountains, he said.

Also archived Willow Fire PNW Team 3 website:
http://199.134.225.50/nwcc/t1_pnw3/archived_incidents/willow_0999/index.html
http://199.134.225.50/nwcc/t1_pnw3/archived_incidents/willow_0999/main.html

Mellie

PS. So sorry to hear about the crew buggy rollover. Thoughts and prayers for all involved.

Tahoe Terrie is correct, the Willow Fire was assigned to PNW IMT3 with Joe
Stutler as IC. Doug Parker was (and still is) the team web master who took us
into the electronic age as a primary conduit for communicating with the public.

ML

Tahoe Terrie,

I was 45 years old when I got the Type I IMT IC position. The Great Basin
only has a commitment for 3 years. It used to be 5 years. After next year,
my 3 year commitment is up. So I might be the youngest to retire from
the Type I IC group. We will see who wants to send in a nomination. If
someone else gets selected, I always enjoyed being a DIVS, so I think
that's were I will end up. Yeah, I think a free lancing DIVS would be right
up my alley.

Rowdy

Tahoe Terrie

From Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=10714#post10714

With all the posts the last few weeks about Hotshot crews and IRC crews and whatnot, I'm surprised that no one ever heard of the "original" hotshot crew, from the 1930's. I didn't do a lot of research on them, but I don't think any became an IC.

www.hoosierhotshots.com

Tool Pusher

HAW HAW, Tool Pusher, Gil might have made it as a firefighting hotshot. The air guitar... Ab.

Ab,

OK, I think Rowdy has me beat, I was 49 when I became Type 1 IC
qualified, I am now 51. It is good, as Rowdy can now keep going long after
the rest of us are gone!

Thanks,

Mark

(Warning: one obscenity at the beginning before the fire sound gets so loud all you hear is the fire sound. Ab.)

Historical thread on this burnover on the Hotlist: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1496
Discussion thread is here, but you have to send comments to Ab to be posted: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1529

Charge: Teacher started Lick Fire (the one that burned Henry W. Coe State Park in Santa Clara County)

Burning Trash Ignited Huge Blaze, Prosecutors Say
www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7012337?nclick_check=1

. . . The blaze, which whipped through the steep canyons and rugged ridgelines of South County before moving into Henry W. Coe State Park, eventually cost the state $13 million to battle. It's a price that Pavese may have to help bear if she is found to be responsible for starting the fire. A judge ultimately would decide how much she would pay, based on her income.

"She may have to pay the Department of Revenue for the rest of her life," Carrubba said.

Pavese, charged Tuesday with a misdemeanor count of failing to exercise reasonable care in the disposal of flammable materials to prevent causing an uncontrolled fire, also faces six months in jail and a $1,000 fine. . .