"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
October, 2007

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10/31 Fedwatcher II, you said regarding 24 pay:

re-emphasizing the fact that all four Southern California forests should be on the same page and collectively work together on such matters.

I agree, similar to when one retired Fire Chief and current Forest Supervisor on the ANF and other Forests are working on local pay raises, special pay and other benefits for Fire Employees they should include all of the 4 So. Cal Forests during those discussions. No Forest in So Cal should be working alone, however the trend lately seems to be to work on these issues in the shadows. Which is probably why no one Forest has been successful to date. If R-5 would like one big FAT Unfair Labor Practice, they only need to implement some kind of pay benefit/increase on one of the 4 So Cal Forests and exclude the other 3. We've only been doing special pay together to 18 years.

Lets work together people! And it starts with each of the 4 - Fire Chiefs, Forest Supervisors and Forest Captain Reps doing something as a TEAM!

Letterman

10/31 Re: the Work Life Conference & other stuff:

It is hard, with all due respect, not to be cynical when I read about such conferences...especially when the leadership is apparently unwilling to hear the negative side of things and when their firefighters are putting their lives on the line through a series of hellacious firestorms. RK, you didn't mention whether Ed was at the conference...as he's been somewhat MIA for some time now.

The apparent unwillingness of the leadership to hear negative comments illustrates their reluctance to truly accept ideas for change. Further, to hold such a conference, (not quite sure who was invited...I guess the invitation to the FWFSA for their motivational speech got lost in the mail) during a time when FS firefighters continue to risk their lives in SoCal...some even losing their homes and personal property, speaks volumes of the seriousness in which the Agency takes such change.

Motivational Speaker??? I sure hope he/she developed a presentation on how to stay motivated while working for an Agency who chooses to keep its firefighters burdened by archaic pay & personnel policies.

Gosh, maybe the motivational speaker should have started "speaking" before the mass exodus to CAL-FIRE...

Cynical, sadly yes. Whether it is "management efficiencies" or some other buzz word to portray itself as an Agency interested in change, until real changes are made, all these conferences (Work Life Conference...what kind of title is that?? and how do firefighters relate to it?) and programs & projects etc., will be meaningless.

Until the Agency embraces & supports:

proper classification for its firefighters
stops diverting preparedness & fuels dollars to use on non-fire projects
stops misleading congress as to preparedness levels
properly compensates all of its firefighters and provides all of their firefighters with benefits
Allows those with fire experience & expertise to manage the fire program, not non-fire line officers

the status quo will remain until we force the change upon the Agency through Congressional education, awareness and action.

Perhaps I'm all screwed up and the conference was for Agency employees other than firefighters. Maybe that would make more sense.

Not trying to fire folks up... just truly tired of the empty facade of supposed change. I have had a number of phone conversations with congressional staff this week and all share the same feelings. Great... it is time for them to step up and do their job and effect change in the Agency if the Agency itself is unwilling to do so.

Casey
10/31 Ab,

I see the post. Why not anything negative? In my world if you really want to be the sounding board you hear everything whether you want to or not. That is the only way a successful two way communication can take place. Has Joe Stalin been resurrected or is another creative thinker like old Joe? In Joe’s world the opposition gov't taken out and shot. What is the new method of eliminating the opposition? I hope the World Life Conference isn’t the replacement. Why can’t we all say what we have to say. Is the First Amendment under a USFS restriction? I fought in two wars so we could all say what we think whether I like it or not. It still is my creed today. What say you all?

Normbc9

10/31 Thank you Lori, Mellie, and Wendy for doing such a great update job keeping everyone updated!

As Lori mentioned, we will be welcoming Ken home at LAX on Tuesday, Nov. 6 at, or around 1:30 p.m., barring any issues with his overseas flights. We’ll keep you posted if things change.

If you live in the area, please help us welcome back this awesome guy! Thank you to everyone who has pledged to Ken’s Run – you help us do so much with your support. It’s not too late to pledge a donation to Ken’s efforts.

Stay tuned for more Ken’s Sahara Run updates and for additional information for his WELCOME HOME!

Melissa Schwagerl, WFF

10/31 GGW,

There is a Work Life Conference going on in Sac. right now. Speakers yesterday included FS Chief Gail Kimball, Randy Moore, Lee Brown (a motivational speaker), Marilyn Manning, a conflict mediator who talked about facilitating positive change. There was small group work. Leaders did not want to hear anything negative. Most I heard obliged. May be more info when it's over...

As far as the agency for a new fire organization. It can't be FEMA or DHS. They are not high reliability organizations (HRO) that have a history or an interest in Lessons Learned. Department of Homeland Security is anything but transparent. FEMA that is made up of rather few simple citizens without any particular training, even has people that stage its own bogus press conferences... It has simply been a conduit for dispersing $$ after all.

We need warriors male and female who are willing to take a tough look and learn lessons, from the groundpounders among us to the highest managers, without CYA. That needs to be a working procedure that we all expect and embrace to be everything we can be.

RK, otherwise unnamed please

10/31 A couple of notes about Ken's Run. First, woo hoo to Ken for finishing the 4th stage of the race. It took a long time for the results to come up and a sigh of relief was expelled when I saw that he did it! The next stage will be the grueling one, so let's get some emails out to Ken and cheer him on!

Second, huge kudos to Tom Harbour and his wife for donating to Ken's Run. It's nice to see the fire leadership stepping up to the plate like that. Now, will we see other fire management follow suit? That sure would be nice......hint, hint.

For anyone that is interested - Ken will be arriving home on Tues. Nov 6th at LAX. I believe his plane arrives at 1:10pm. We would love to have a big crowd waiting to greet him and welcome him home - what a fantastic way to thank him for all he has done for the fire community. Melissa, Wendy and I will definitely be there with a few others hoping to make it barring any unforeseen situations arising. So, if you have the inclination, join us for the fun! The more, the merrier!!

Lori

Send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email.

Some photos again:

runners (I think Ken is to the left, about 4th in and in the middle row with the tan cocky hat and quirky grin.)
white desert & stage2 in white desert
camels2.jpg & camel.jpg
rocks
stage2

10/31 Ken finished Stage 4! Whooooooooo hooooooooo! <virtual arm(s) up in victory sign>

Kenneth C. Perry Male <little USA flag> United States  06:47:56  08:47:59  07:37:28 07:18:05

Mellie

Donate to Ken's Run; it's tax deductible: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

10/31 So. Cal Preparedness:

Washington Fire Service still has 11 Type 1 and 3 ST's in the basin.
Most of us where at Harris Fire and are now en-route to Chino Staging.
Cal Fire and OES have been great to work with.
We'll stage and do some training exercises or whatever tasks are assigned.

We haven't forgot those families, friends and coworkers involved in the burn over.

Stay safe all; take care

Steve Westlake
10/31 fsff:

The LP and Cleveland have used their "emergency" 24 hour staffing plans which pays a firefighter for all 24 hrs "except" for three half hour meal breaks. A similar plan was developed on the ANF but for reasons unknown, the Forest Supervisor did not implement the plan despite it being with discussed with her recently.

Odd that it is remarkably similar to the concept of portal to portal.

The 24 hour "emergency" plans are not the same 24 hour staffing plan put out by some on the BDF and pitched to the RO in August along with Special Salary rate issues. The results of those meetings are unknown. The Regional Forester listened to the issues on August 10th then two days later he was gone.

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) has had discussions with its members off the LP & ANF on the issue and supports the plan's use... re-emphasizing the fact that all four Southern California forests should be on the same page and collectively work together on such matters.

Fedwatcher II
10/31 From the hotlist: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2293

GAAS:873:07
For Immediate Release: Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Governor Schwarzenegger Directs State Agencies to Prepare for Forecasted
Weekend Winds in Southern California

In preparation for the forecasted return of Santa Ana winds beginning
this Friday, Governor Schwarzenegger today directed the California
National Guard (CNG), California Department of Forestry and Fire
Protection (CAL FIRE) and Office of Emergency Services (OES) to
proactively prepare for a new round of fires in southern California.

Under the Governor's direction, these agencies have developed an
aggressive, tactical plan to pre-position staff and assets in areas
facing a high fire risk, based on weather projected for Friday through
Monday.

"It's very important that we remain prepared and alert while there are
still fires burning in southern California," said Governor
Schwarzenegger. "This plan helps ensure that resources are strategically
placed and standing ready, prepared for whatever the weekend will bring.

"Our firefighters have done a tremendous job combating the blazes in
southern California. We are grateful for their continued dedication and
hard work in protecting our state."

CAL FIRE preparation for the Santa Ana winds threat includes deployment
of air tankers, tactical aircraft, helicopters, strike and dispatch
teams, and other assets to locations including Ramona, Hemet, Paso,
Porterville, Fresno, Victorville, Riverside and San Diego. CAL FIRE will
also deploy engine strike teams throughout the state, including San
Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino, Los Angeles County, Santa Barbara
County and Kern County. In addition, OES will position strike teams in
Orange and Ventura counties.

The CNG will maintain a deployed presence of 1,500 guardsmen and six
firefighting helicopters to support ongoing response efforts. The CNG
will place additional forces on alert to be recalled if necessary to
support future missions.

CAL FIRE continues to adjust staffing and equipment patterns in
preparation for the weekend. CAL FIRE oversaw the fire resources used to
address 22 fires in Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange, San Bernardino,
Riverside and San Diego counties that began October 21. Four fires are
still burning.

10/31 Does anyone know about the FS fire meeting going on in Sacramento
where they're trying to get people to buy in to the "new FS direction"?

GGW

10/31 I understand that the LP implemented their "emergency" 24 hr staffing last winds event
that got approved by their Forest Supervisor. Did any other SoCal Forest do the same?
I know some of the Chiefs and Forest Sups were at the RO a few months ago discussing
this issue as well other issues. Another Santa Ana wind event coming this weekend.

fsff
10/31 Does anyone at WLF speak Spanish and have access to any of the Baja
California news publications?

I am looking for info on the fires in Baja that destroyed 60 houses in
Ensenada and 50 houses in Tijuana from Oct 21 - Oct 26, 2007.

From what I have been able to find out about past fires in the area, there
were similar losses in 2003 but more widespread. Some reports from 2003
included large fires that swept out of the Sierra San Pedro de Martir
mountains and burned houses in cities as well as outlying ranches.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Gizmo

Ab has copied and pasted two replies to Gizmo. More are welcome.

10/31 Ab,

We have posted a collection of fire perimeter maps of the Socal Fires - viewable in Google Earth or Google Maps on our website:

www.northtreefire.com/gis/virtual.php

These overlays were created from data generated by the Teams on the fires. The Teams and Ca. OES have uploaded this data to the USGS Geomac web mapping service, http://wildfire.cr.usgs.gov.

Thanks/kudos to all of the Ops personnel, Field Observers, Infrared Interpreters, Drone Pilots, and GIS Techs that created this data.

- NorthTree Fire GIS
10/31 Re: FPA and IFPM: Shell Games

Makes me think back to the good old days....... Back when we could take a lunch break out on the line and get paid for it. That extra $5.00 made a huge difference as I could put in my pocket, knowing there was free jerky and sodas in camp......... God forbid we spend money on items that may actually boost morale. Some of these policy folks have forgotten the whole "win the battle, lose the war" philosophy. Here's one that could actually save some serious dough.......

While working with an Exclusive Use Type 1 helo this summer on the Zaca II, our contract shows that we pay per diem straight up for the entire crew, 4 people in this case. This helo was assigned to the fire for over 30 days with a per diem rate of $240.00 a day. That means, in 30 days, the government paid out $28,000.00 in per diem! I would get up each morning to ensure they got their FREE sack lunch AND knowing that several of them would camp out so that they could "pocket that per diem". Oh yeah, they really LOVED the free dinners and breakfasts in camp. Anything wrong with this picture? I know that all the shot crews, engine crews, etc would have appreciated that little "extra" dough. Think of all the jerky and sodas that we could buy! Heck, as ludicrous as it sounds we may have been able to hire an additional firefighter.........

Way to go policy makers! There is a forest in them trees!

Fishguy
10/31 Thanks for the kind comments Radar.

Be sure though to not confuse the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) with the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).

CBO provides oversight and offers suggestions on the budget for the legislative branch, primarily Congress.

OMB provides oversight and offers suggestions on the budget for the executive branch agencies.

Lobotomy
10/30 Just a heads up. It was brought to my attention that some people are writing comments to Ken on his blog page. Unfortunately, Ken can't read those messages. If you want to send him a message, make sure you send him an email. Here is the link in case you don't have it:

www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14

Wow, we just had an earthquake! How much fun can I have this week? Following Ken on his race, thunder and lightning last night and now this. It was a 5.6 centered near San Jose. Anyone else feel it?

Lori
10/30 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert::
from Ken's Blog, Stage 3:

Ocean of sand
30-Oct-2007 05:30:10 AM [(GMT-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada); Tijuana]

Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007

Today was a good day. I don't think that my time was really much better than yesterday, but from a morale standpoint, it was a good day.

The day took us into the most vast area of sand than I've ever seen. "Incredible beauty in absolute nothingness" was the term that came to my mind. But in all of this nothingness... there were butterflies. How they got here, and why, seems to be the big question amongst us all. They would flutter around the pink flags marking the course, thinking I suppose they were flowers.

Once we crossed through about 4 miles or so of this ocean, we began climbing a Dragon's back of sand-dunes. Up and down this razor back ridge of... yes, you've guessed it.... sand.

Oh and I got to spend a few moments scratching the ears of a camel. That was pretty cool.

Tomorrow should be another 30 odd KM day, starting out in more sand, and then maybe hardening up (the ground) towards the end of the day, and apparently ending at an Oasis, from which we will have unlimited water from a spring to do a wash before the big day.

I've gotten a few pics (my card is nearly full) but the staff photog is everywhere from the gore of the med tent to the night campfire.... to the Ocean of Sand.

Love you Hon. Kiss the kids for me.

Peace, KCP

Some photos, posted temporarily, from the racing website for those of you with dialup... Ken will have more when he's done.

runners (I think Ken is to the left, about 4th in and in the middle row with the tan cocky hat and quirky grin.)
white desert & stage2 in white desert
camels2.jpg & camel.jpg
rocks
stage2

10/30 Lobotomy,

You are nailing it Right On. Yes, the GAO and CBO (Congressional Budget Office) asked why is it costing so much each year and fatalities. We had our Best and Brightest Leaders put together the NFP with the assumption that those leaders would be around to implement the plan. Congress wants and needs numbers that mean something. Remember, they want to deliver stuff back to the home district besides smoke, mirrors, a shell and no pea.

The group that put the NFP together moved on and the New Chief said, "Can Do". Instead of re-assembling that group to develop a FPA and the IFPM, we got all new players. No ownership. Got to deal with other pending issues in land management. Now almost 5 years after several attempts to jump start these programs, there are another set of players.

Who's taken ownership? The only folks that I know are the ground pounders. They have done what has been asked of them with less and have gone beyond the call of duty. Forcing lunch, cutting staffing, reducing funding, consolidation, reprogramming, etc...... What a way to run a Land Management Agency. You want to find waste and abuse? Go to the top and work your way down.

Hugh, We came along during a much simpler time. It's "Complex" now.

-=RADAR=-

10/30 From Firescribe:

Spy planes, computers play key firefighting roles
www.pe.com
By KIMBERLY TRONE
The Press-Enterprise

Flying at 60,000 feet, a large unmanned jet loaded with computers and high-tech cameras has played a major role in helping fire officials from Lake Arrowhead to the Mexico border combat Southern California's wildfires.

The Global Hawk, about the size of a Boeing 737, is part of a fleet of at least five military reconnaissance aircraft that since Oct. 23 have been transmitting images used to find hot spots and assess damage.

The fleet also includes a Vietnam War-era U-2 spy plane and another unmanned aircraft, NASA's Ikhana

The planes, equipped with infrared cameras, GPS units and digital imaging computers, will be used to scout potential landslide areas once the fires are out.

Similar aircraft were used after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as well as such natural disasters as the 2003 Cedar Fire in San Diego County and Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

But in natural disasters, they've never been used to the degree they are now being used in the war on the wildfires, said Cal Fire Capt. Mike Wilson, a mapping specialist and assistant fire marshal from Napa County. (click the link above for more)

10/30 Ab,

I have not been down to see the burned firefighters in the hospital in San Diego. I will
probably go when things settle down for them. I think they’ll be there for a while.

I want folks to know they can send donations for those firefighters in the burn center
to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation at www.wffoundation.org and we will forward
the funds, or folks can send them directly to:

CDF Firefighter Benevolent Foundation
1731 J Street, Suite 100
Sacramento CA 95811
(916) 609-8700

I know from being around the burn centers that the money these families will need adds
up quickly. So let’s all help.

We also have two wildland firefighters who have lost their homes; one on the San
Bernardino, the other on the Cleveland. Both families have two small children.

My staff and I are giving beyond what the Foundation is giving.

Tom Harbor, do you think it’s a coincidence that a guy from your church met up with
Ken Perry in Egypt? God wants me to tell you to put up a pledge for Ken’s Run…….

Vicki Minor
Executive Director
www.wffoundation.org
10/30 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert::

The third stage of 23.6 miles (38.5 K) has been completed with Ken running it in 7:27:38. He accomplished this with the temps being 110+. Great going Ken!! Have you sent your email to Ken yet? It's easy and I know that Ken would love the encouragement. Tomorrow is the last "easy" stage (Stage 4, about 25 miles) before the runners start their 2 day stage of the course. Stage 5 is about 58 miles (~93 K) and competitors may race through the night into the next day.

Send those emails to help Ken get through this!

Lori

Ken had to get over massive sand dunes toward the end of today's run -- in the heat, no doubt it's quite wearing. Total distance he's run in the three stages so far: 71.2 miles (114K). Send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it again. It's incredibly simple to do. Join the support team. Simple. Ab.

10/30 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert::

Stage 3 complete!

Kenneth C. Perry Male <little USA flag> United States 06:47:56 08:47:59 07:37:28

Wendy

Go Ken, way to hang in there!
Donate
to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

10/30 Re: FPA and IFPM: Shell Games

Fire Program Analysis (FPA) and Interagency Fire Program Management (IFPM) were indeed as a fix offered by the administration, not by Congress as some distort. They surely weren't offered by wildland fire professionals either.

Congress was getting concerned and asked the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to investigate the reasons for skyrocketing costs of wildland fire suppression and why accidents kept happening. They also commissioned studies to find why the National Fire Plan wasn't working as Congress and the public intended in improving the safety of our communities and the health of our wildlands.

The fixes offered were IFPM and FPA. They also took away "beef jerky, sodas, and supplemental items" as a supposed root causes....... and instructed IIMTs to ensure that firefighters were taking uncompensated meal breaks even though they were on the fireline in direct violation of Title 5.........

All Congress got in return, year after year from Mark Rey and Lynn Scarlett was talking points and shell games..... Paraphrased: 'We are able to reduce our preparedness and prevention costs through "management efficiencies" and this will not affect our suppression costs or ability to respond'. Records on File in the Congressional Record. We have a "can do" culture and we will fix that says the new Chief.........

Simple answers:
  1. Political appointees to the Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)*,
  2. Political appointees to the Under-Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)**,
  3. Political appointees to the Assistant Under-Secretary levels of the land management agencies (USDA, DOI)**, and
  4. Political appointees of the Agency Heads of USFS, FWS, NPS, BIA, and BLM ***, and
  5. Senior Executive Service (SES) "employees" serving in key subordinate staff positions and having to answer to #'s 1-4 above and having SES requirements as part of their jobs.........
  6. People being "groomed" for positions 1-5 (above) that have no clue about the complexities of the federal wildfire problem and program.... but have a chance of being salvaged as the Forest Service says, "The Greater Good".

FEMA did a great thing..... they put a firefighter and former fire chief in charge.

Lobotomy

* Usually attorneys. Many times, former campaign contributors, lobbyists, or heads of companies or corporations with a financial interest.

** Many attributes of the above but with less influence. Many have served as "Professional Staff Member" or analyst positions with either Senators or Representatives in key positions of "oversight", or those that helped in policy direction, or election activities.

*** Folks who were groomed for their positions and won't talk out when programs are circling the drain. They report to "*" and "**" above.


Those in positions #5 and #6 above have a chance to make a change and break the bureaucracy to meet the Agency missions..... the intent of Congress....... and the intent of the American people.

P.S. - Hugh, great to see you back talking about "Swiss Cheese" and in the community. I still disagree with you that the causal chain starts with the individuals act or omission though..... and HFACS isn't Swiss Cheese..... Dr. Reason's "Swiss Cheese" model was always intended to build a better 'cockpit'....... 'pilots' will always make human errors, AND IF the cockpit around them is inherently unsafe, dysfunctional, or not meeting the need of the flight mission...

10/29 Reading the replies with interest... to "A Firefighting Force for the Nation?"

On another note: Those who might be helping the kids cope with the socal fires, here are a couple of good resources:

Helping Children After a Wildfire, Tips for Parents and Teachers

Responding to Natural Disasters: Helping Children and Families. Information for School Crisis Teams.

Mellie

10/29 Mellie,

You've asked a timely question. As a retired Red Trucker, I think the Agency responsible for fighting fires should be a Fire Department with Resource managers as technical specialists, not vice versa.

You asked for opinion... in my opinion you saw such an Agency functioning last week in Southern California. The evacuation of almost a million people and the handling of Qualcomm Stadium was not an accident. In some areas, such as Los Angeles and Orange County, the local or County Government were able to provide services while in San Diego, CDF and local Fire Districts were the providers and on Federal land, the USFS and the Military lead the fight. The amalgamation of agencies is Southern California is a result of many years of working together on a common problem.

You're seeing a similar situation develop in the Reno/Tahoe area, where the Sierra Front organization is fighting more and more interface fires.

The leadership and many of the rank and file of the USFS has resisted change, but change is coming. Changing climate and populations will require different strategies and tactics. Other factors such as the introduction of OSHA or even Unionization will force change.

If the USFS or any of the Wildland Fire Agencies cannot change with the times, they will be forced out or into the second seat by an Agency capable of providing those services.

viejo

10/29 For Mellie & Nerd...

Nerd certainly expresses my sentiments as well when he wrote his last post.
Mellie has produced some great thoughts for us all to ponder.

I don't think that having ANY PART of the Federal Government being "in charge" of a National Fire Department is wise.

  • There are far too many different areas of this country with their own fuel types and inherent problems associated with them.
  • Weather patterns are far too different for one part of the nation to understand what another's seasonal expectations are.
  • The overwhelming bureaucracy that comes with such a tasking is self defeating and will gobble tax dollars for years prior to it ever becoming a reality.

Time, effort and funding would be better expended on having the State's recognizing each other's strength's AND weaknesses and adopting a nation wide mutual aid/training/response... but isn't that what ICS was supposed to be all about?

Some States have accomplished this but there are still far too many who chose to disregard the system and as such have fallen behind in their attempts at modernization.

Perhaps we should take the lessons learned from Katrina and DEMAND that all emergency agencies that serve the public's safety come up to date and adopt the recognized ICS.

Now THAT would be a good start for the Federal Government if it wants to help improve our nation's fire fighting forces.

COPTER 100

10/29 Midwest FMO,

Attached is a pdf file (52 Kb) of the 2005 IFPM complexity ratings and raw scores for every unit from the 5 federal agencies. The graphs at the end of the document show how the USFS ratings skew the bell curve distribution towards high complexity.

I got this originally in response to forwarding a question I had never thought to ask. Pretty interesting stuff, in a Nerd sort of way.

vfd cap'n

It would be interesting to see the original IFPM-created rating scale. The skew is likely inherent in complexity of the types of lands/locations the Forest Service oversees. I noticed the FS has the most units with 112 of the 383 units, the BIA has 87, the NPS has 70, the FWS has 68 and the BLM has 47. (My numbers are off by 1 unit too high, go figure.) Ab.

10/29 Mellie;

What a fascinating and timely question. I think one big issue is the need to streamline getting resources to responders.

You ask what federal agency should be in charge;
I don’t see a good candidate.

  • The Department of Homeland Security is a Franken-bureaucracy soon to collapse under its own weight and the weight of public expectation.
  • FEMA is not and never was a response agency; it’s a funding vehicle.
  • The USFS and BLM, with all due respect, are too … geographically defined to effectively fight interface fires.
  • Local resources (I include paid, volunteer, and contract resources) are vulnerable to local politics which make it difficult to enforce consistent quality standards.

I’m going to display my local prejudices and say that the answer isn’t going to come from the federal level, not in terms of a firefighting force; the firefighting forces are going to have to be local, to have local awareness of conditions and politics.

I think that federal resources will have to come as supplementary resources, to ensure quick and efficient funding of local firefighting efforts, and to supply specialist personnel and equipment. Federal resources are also going to have to step in and ensure uniformity and best practices among interface departments.

Right now, the major force protecting best practices and standards for structural firefighting is the ISO, which is a private organization. NFPA approves equipment and writes best practices, ISO, through their rating system, enforces them. ISO ratings control funding, but most funding, through the current grant processes, comes as the result of self-reported behaviors. There is no federal fire department inspection apparatus. I think that would be a good first step; not a federal firefighting force, but a federal fire department administration, to enforce compliance with NFPA standards and ensure accurate reporting for funding purposes. I think that would go a long way to evening out the quality and interoperability of interface resources.

Nerd on the Fireline

P.S. I have escaped from academia and the Pacific Northwest and am now back in the corporate world, in the northern Great Basin. I see miles and miles of charred sagebrush on my way home from work every day, and I am very much looking forward to next summer. Here’s to the good fires…small, remote, just complex enough to be interesting and fought safely and efficiently with good friends and respected colleagues.

Glad you're back Nerd. Ab.

10/29 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert:

From White to Black
29-Oct-2007 04:18:51 AM [(GMT-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada); Tijuana]

Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007

, so Okay, we are still having difficulties with the satellite hook up, and I just lost a longer blog. So, I am going to make this fairly quick.

It's day 2. 26 miles today (21 yesterday). This place is absolutely incredible. They should have pictures and films on the website soon. It is HOT! And today there was no wind, so it was just brutal.

At check-point 2 one of the volunteers, a kid named Dave came up to me and said he had a message for me from Tom Harbor. Huh? Turns out they go to the same church. Small world...even in this never ending place.

I'm getting pretty banged up. Feet are going to be hamburger by the time it's all over, I'm sure. The quest now is simply to see the Sphinx. However I can get there.

I've got to let some of the other competitors get in the blog site, so I'll get back on soon.

I love you Hon. Kiss the kids for me.

Peace, KCP

Ken said to take messages from his blog, so I have. Ab.

10/29 I've been thinking about
  • the SoCal Firestorm, about
  • firefighting connected with natural resources and natural weather forces, about
  • firefighting connected with ever-increasing numbers of structures on the interface that are their own fuel type, about
  • the (potential) increase in frequency of fires associated with drought, bug kill and climate change (whether in the West or in GA) and about
  • America's needs for an easy-to-mobilize, efficient interface structure and wildland firefighting force.

What would be the ideal firefighting force be that could provide for our emerging needs as a nation?

Specifically:

  • What federal agency would those firefighters come under the auspices of?
  • What systems would need to be in place so those forces & that agency could cut through the bureaucratic hurdles to fight fire on the interface of cities and communities across the country?
  • What other federal, state, county and private forces -- like military aviation -- would we need to draw on at the drop of a hat?
  • How would such cooperators be trained and equipped regarding communication, etc? Would military cooperators be required to have fire specialists on board?
  • Would there be a branch of these fire forces that handled any large emergency? Is NIFC the best federal organization to be providing, training and funding fire forces that we are coming to need?

Most of you know my blood runs green and I come from a natural resources background before my stress psychology background, but I think we need to be asking and exploring answers to these questions.

At the moment, this is what's been going around in my head.
If we get off "turf" differences.
If we get off state or location differences.
If we get off politics and media and the blame game...

What would our ideal firefighting force or incident managing force look like? What can we do to create that?

Mellie

10/29 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert:

Ken stage 2

Kenneth C. Perry Male <American flag> United States 06:47:56 08:47:59

stage 2 was 26.1 miles, in the blistering heat!

Wendy

If you want to send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link below. www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - just choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it again. It's incredibly simple to do. Join the support team. It's easy. Ab.

10/29 Great news!!

Ken has finished the second stage with a time of 8:47:59. Way to go Ken.

Don't forget to send those emails everyone!!!

I hear tell that the temps were really scorching on this stage. I guess it's a good
thing that Ken likes to run in the heat! :-)

Lori

Run, Ken, Run.
Donate
to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

10/29 from the hotlist:

Radiant Heat vs Firebrands

Ab, here's a 9 minute video of several large houses -closely packed -going up in Green Valley on the Slide (Arrowhead area) fire.

It's clear that to the fire, houses are just another fuel type and that even a pile of firewood along the road or in the driveway is a potential problem for carrying flames. It's also clear that as the other videos showed, houses can withstand a lot more heat before igniting than human beings can. The photographer lets you know how hot it is and when he has to move back.

At some point a red engine comes in and the firefighters decide which house to try to save.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZEd7rD3Mw

roadrunner

10/28 Mellie,

I can't argue with you. FPA competed with NFMAS in the dismal failure department. How much did politics and personality play into the NFMAS models? My point is that budget allocation is yet to be based on land management needs and fire management program complexity. I always have thought that a few experienced fire managers could have come up with a simple workable budget allocation system that made sense.

airtac
10/28 Some more notes from the Racing the Planet Daily Update

(Sahara Desert, Egypt) The Sahara Race got underway today at 08h30 as 73 international competitors took to the sand in epic fashion -- camels yawping and drums beating – to start stage one of six of their 250-kilometer journey. Their first stage was a 21.5-mile-long leg that meandered across white stone bolder fields and long stretches of beige sand. (snip)

<one leading runner said> “It was good, especially to start, but then it got hot” (snip)

During the afternoon the racers each took their turn coming through the four checkpoints, then heading toward the finish line, with many running out of water during between the second and third sites due to the excessive heat. (snip)

“It’s not like we train for this sort of thing in the UK with our weather,” said Crispin, who took fifth overall, sitting in the new camp which has been relocated to the heart of the White Desert. “It was hot out there.

It is easy to email Ken. I did.
I hope he has electrolytes to mix with his water.

Can anyone point Ken out in this photo of Sahara Racers? Where's Ken?
(for comparison, here's Ken leaving socal with all our pledges/donations)

Mellie

10/28 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert:

From Wendy:

Ken finishes stage 1

> From the leader board: Ken finished the first leg (I don't know how many
miles it was!) and is in 35th place. Keep sending in those emails!

www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14

35 Kenneth C. Perry M United States 06:47:56 status: active

Good news, Wendy and Lori. Readers, if you want to send a congratulatory or encouraging email, click the link above.

There's a dropdown menu - just choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. I just did it. It's incredibly simple to do. It would be great if we sent him a bazillion emails tonight and every night. Motivation counts for a lot in the desert and on the fireline.

I looked and here's the poop on mileage for Stage 1:
21.9 miles // 35 kilometers

Run, Ken, Run! Ab.

10/28 I went to the Sahara Race site to check out how Ken fared his first day out. Ken completed the course in 6:47:56 and was in 35th place out of 76 people. Nicely done Ken. Keep up the good work and take it easy on your ankle. Everyone please remember to send Ken emails - I know he would love to hear from all of you!!

Lori
10/28 Gizmo

I wonder how long it will take IFPM to also go the way of the Dodo Bird, much like FPA. Both programs and associated models never came from the wildland fire community. Both programs added to the confusion and eventual bankruptcy of the federal wildland fire program.

The IFPM complexity exercise was used to determine minimum grade levels. Having worked through that for my unit I would be very surprised that most of the federal land management units in the west did not rate as medium or higher. I can't access the IFPM web site (FS systems appear to be down) but I recall that what lead to this was the need to have highly skilled "wildfire" management organizations for the federal land management agencies. This was identified as a critical need for firefighter safety following the South Canyon fire. The 14 key positions were identified by the "wildfire" management staff of the federal agencies. These were the same people that wanted to use S-courses for college credit. Unfortunately the agencies overstepped their bounds and where trumped by OPM on the S-course issue (who rightly or wrongly has authority over such matters) .

While congress ended FPA, it also said "Try again" and has not relented in its mandate to the federal agencies to come up with a common budget allocation system. One briefing paper I saw said congress wanted a system on line for March 2008. Current options they are using; 1 a system developed by the USFS, 2 another developed by the BLM 3 a hybrid of either of these two or 4 a completely different critter.

FPA was a train on a track to oblivion many of the folks out at the local and regional level knew it. It took 3 years (and millions of $'s) before reality stopped that train.

IFPM continues to cause consternation but I think history will show that for the most part it was a positive step. It will continue to evolve and as it runs into realities. I still predict the labor lawyers will make out very well when the 2009 deadline hits.

FPA and IFPM may evolve but they will not go the way of the Dodo.

Side note - Thursday afternoon resource orders for engines made it all the way to eastern area. Don't recall that happening before in October.

Midwest FMO

10/28 Hi Ab,

The “Professor” KCK is referring to was serious contender for the CDF Directors job until CDF Firefighters got involved and suggested that CDF needed a professional fire administrator with a proven performance background. Only then did he get eliminated. His continuing friendships with prominent Republicans with Texas ties is probably the reason for this sudden re-emergence here in this context. There are a lot of wannabees out there but this does take the cake. His wealth of knowledge about the fire situation in this state is highly questionable to me. The statements he makes also add to my suspicions about his true intent. I see it as self serving.

Normbc9

10/28 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE from the Sahara Desert:

--- RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl @ yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:15:19 -0700

---------------------------------

Stage 1, Oct. 28, 12h40: Andrew Murray of Scotland
crossed the finish line in first place under 4 hours.
Sandra McCallum of Canada placed first in the women's
division. All but four have now crossed the finish
line (the rest are expected shortly). [Satellite
communications were down for the majority of the day,
but are expected to be fully operational on Stage 2.]

Donate to Ken's Run: Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated.

10/28 FIRE SHELTER DEPLOYMENT - PRELIMINARY SUMMARY REPORT

Orange County Fire Authority (ORC)
Twelve Firefighters Deploy Fire Shelters – All Twelve Survive Uninjured
October 22, 2007
Santiago Incident CA-ORC-07068555

This Preliminary Summary Report is intended as an aid in accident prevention, and to provide factual information within a short time frame. Information contained within may be subject to revision as further investigation is conducted, and other reports and documents are received.

Synopsis

Twelve OCFA firefighters were advancing a progressive hose lay on a hillside near a road cut along Santiago Canyon Road in eastern Orange County (Unincorporated). Upon reaching the top of the 200-foot hill, their hose line apparently ruptured, causing them to run out of water. As fire encroached upon their position, the firefighters deployed their fire shelters, and all twelve firefighters escaped injury.

Narrative

A wildland fire was reported near Santiago Canyon and Silverado Canyon at 1755 on 10/21/07. .........

The whole thing is posted on the hotlist...
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=12387#post12387

10/28 Some very cool and instructive fire videos (You Tube), sent in by Lobotomy:

Interview with Jack Cohen, Fire Sciences Researcher, Fire Sciences Lab, Missoula, Mt.
Radiant Heat Versus Firebrands (embers)
Very interesting. Ab.

Inside the Running Springs Fire
This is on Wilderness Rd near Hiway 18.
Choking smoke, searing heat, zero visibility.
Mandatory evacs in this area really are warranted. Without protective fire gear this would be deadly.

10/28 More video and story from Running Springs from Guy M

Running Springs, California, early Tuesday October 23 2007.

Video at
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJlhdaAuTvE

Story at
http://apocheirs.blogspot.com/

10/28 jimhart,

Here is what some "Professors" resort to:

Experts Available to Discuss Southern Wildfires A Press release to sell themselves and their views to the needy press.

Looks a lot like a "hire me" CV..... A "I need work" classified add capitalizing on the current fire conditions. The person involved lost his privileges at the UC and CS system schools and a federal contract "for cause".

Looking at the national news the last few days, it looks like he was hired again by many folks as a consultant..... and he must have a friend in the Cal Poly programs who allowed his "visiting scholar" status.

There is another fraudulent clone out there also getting big press by the name of Minnich who is a geographer......... <snip>, but his stuff somehow keeps making it to the daily bylines as "factual" to the wildland fire community........

Really shameful.

KCK
10/27 Letterman, airtac, and Mellie,

You are correct on my mistake... I have been gathering and participating in so many things and complexity ratings, I forgot where the data came from.

I've long known that data can be manipulated.... facts can't.

I wonder how long it will take IFPM to also go the way of the Dodo Bird, much like FPA. Both programs and associated models never came from the wildland fire community. Both programs added to the confusion and eventual bankruptcy of the federal wildland fire program.

Gizmo
10/27 air, giz and Mellie,

The complexity analysis related to and completed for IFPM not FPA. Units
were either low, mod or high. I think all R-5 forests were classified as high.
I cant recall a complexity analysis development (low mod or high) with FPA.
However it's been a year since I pushed the any FPA buttons.

Letterman

10/27 CB

Totally with you. Lets not forget all the other agencies out working fires all year long. How about we also not forget the contract resources out watching everyone's back while the agency resources rush off to the latest biggest fire. I'm currently protecting homes from a prescribed burn that the USFS left burning to go rush off to SoCal.

Doesn't bother me; I've become used to being treated like a 'snake'. We could all b*tch if we wanted to.

Ima Contractor
10/27 From Firescribe:

Burned firefighter anticipated dying
www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20071027-9999-1n27fighters.html

Good article. Only part that doesn't quite jive with my notes from e-mailer is that the FS helo pilot (H-538) that flew out the 3 burned firefighters and 2 residents didn't find Pikop later, although he did transport him. Another firefighter found him. My best wishes for recovery. It is good to see a picture of Andrew. Ab.

10/27 Hi airtac,

I may be incorrect. I do not have my notes available, but if the complexity analysis was any
part of the the program that was supposed to replace NFMAS, it was a costly, dismal failure.

Mellie

10/27 Gizmo,

I don't have access to the numerical ratings from the complexity analysis's anymore. Maybe a fire planner type could provide some of those numbers. It surprised me when I saw the ratings at the time. The explanation I received then was that the highest complexity units were those that had challenges related to large activity fuel programs, large landscape level natural fuel treatment programs, concurrent with high fire occurrence workloads, and large fire use use programs. In other words, units that had complex integrated "fire management programs", compared to units that were limited primarily to "suppression". I am certainly not knocking any programs in SZ. The program is whatever the land management plan requires. I was only suggesting that the politics often have more to do with the complexity than the actual land management and fire management need.

I always admire your comments. You obviously have a great deal of wisdom and fire savvy that I suspect you earned the hard way. Thanks.

airtac
10/27 Gotta send something else from my reading, if only because this opinion piece in tomorrow's
Washington Post is written by someone with deep roots in the fire community (Steve Pyne).

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/26/AR2007102601806.html

Blazes on the New Frontier

By Steve Pyne
Sunday, October 28, 2007; Page B01

It takes only a whiff of smoke for it all to return. Sensations deeper than memory. The streaks of flame. The throb of heat. The gusts of smoke, twisting white and black like exhausted whirlwinds. A rush of adrenaline that can blow your head off. A fatigue so profound that it can rearrange your chromosomes. The sense of a world in such commotion that it seems to slow.

The big fire.

Most fires aren't big, and most wildland firefighting is a world of routine jobs and small blazes. It's a life of coming to know a place through its fires as a naturalist might know it through its flowers or mammals. In the deep backcountry, away from lodges and roads, the chief skill is just finding the fire -- a smoking snag, a smoldering stump. Only if that first attack fails does the firefight scale up into a campaign that resembles nothing so much as the moral equivalent of war. It's an intoxicating life, full of flame and fortune.

(for more, click the link)

Still Out There as an AD

10/27 Blame 2007

There was once a respected institution that protected public lands in Southern California called the US Forest Service. It had a premier firefighting force that was admired the world round. They stopped fires and saved lives.

How things have changed. It took longer than it did during the Cedar fire, but the finger pointers are at it again.

The US Forest Service is now blamed for causing all these huge wildfires by putting out the “little ones.” Shame on them! Didn’t they know they should have just let them burn until the flames were about to threaten some valuable asset?

“Because we've had fire suppression all these years, all we have left is huge areas of equally old chaparral,” said Michael Barbour, a professor at UC Davis. “That's why these fires are so big. There is no patch of recently burned chaparral to stop it,"

Odd isn’t it that huge portions of the Cedar, Paradise, and Otay fire scars from 2003 re-burned in the Witch and Harris fires in San Diego County this past week? Dang firefighters! If they just hadn’t suppressed all those grass fires over the past four years these flames would have been nipped in the bud. Wait! Most of that land was under municipal and state jurisdiction. So it’s the CDF’s fault for putting out all those little fires! Stupid little firefighters trying to fight fire.

“How much longer is this society going to continue to believe that they can stop fires with their Tonka toys?” says Richard Minnich, a geography professor at UC Riverside.

Tonka toys? Men and women risked their lives trying to save homes and lives over this past week. Signs on street corners say “Thank God for Firefighters!" And yet, some continue to heap disrespect on those whose only desire is to help others.

Thanks to quick thinking, government agencies pulled off some awesome evacuations in San Diego County. They had learned from the Cedar fire that wind-driven fires can prove to be very deadly.

"Some people believe that horrific brushland fires are wind-driven events. They are wrong,” says Tom Bonnicksen, a retired (looking for a new job) professor from A&M University.

The fact that repeated fires in the same area have caused ecological disasters throughout many areas in California shrublands is known by firefighters, but somehow has been missed by these professors.

"Science shows that brushlands are resilient, no matter how often fires burn or how hot the fire,” Bonnicksen said during another one of his enlightened moments. What kind of science is this guy looking at?

I for one am sick and tired of having professors who have never been on the fireline, much less bothered to check their conclusions with those who have, spitting out press releases and pandering to the press after every fire in order to get their name in lights. I’m sick and tired of hearing these professors bash the US Forest Service for doing its job over the years. And I’m sick and tired of hearing these professors twist events and science to conform to their pet theories.

I’ll really feel sorry for these guys if they spout off one their self serving, ego-gratifying, financially lucrative opinions about fire in a meeting I happen to attend in the future. My days for being diplomatic are over.

jimhart

10/27 Just an update that member companies of the NWSA have been getting orders since Thursday from Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Northern California, Montana and are sending crews, engines, time keepers, timber faller teams, and other misc. resources to help out our fellow firefighters in Southern California. Hope that everyone remains safe, and our prayers are with the injured folks down there.

We are glad that we are able to join in the workforce, and help out those folks already there that may need a break.

Debbie Miley
NWSA

Thanks Debbie. Ab.

10/27 Some of the better reporting about the SoCal fires came from Wall Street Journal. Most of their content is by subscription so I wasn't able to provide any links. I appreciated their story late in the week about some dude that's been out to save the chaparral and now after these fires, he's rethinking his position!

Their lead editorial today said much of what we've discussed here regarding the need for insurers to take some responsibility for backing people who build in the interface.

The editorial also pushes local government (who make the zoning decisions!) to take up more of the fire costs. "Since 1992, the Forest Service's fire expenditures have grown by 450%, and well over half of that has been spent protecting private property next to public land." The editorial concludes with: "And that means holding homeowners, developers, states and local communities more accountable."

That's quite different from all those people telling the TV cameras that the feds didn't do enough!

Still Out There as an AD
10/27 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE:

--- RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl @ yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:45:32 -0700
>>
---------------------------------

Pre-Race, 10.26.07, 19h41: The athletes arrive at Camp
1 after a 7.5-hr drive through the desert!
Anticipation grows for an 8am start time!

10/27 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE MESSAGE:

Wendy is getting official emails from the group that organized and supports Ken's run. Excellent! Ab.

RacingThePlanet <info @ racingtheplanet.com> wrote:

>> To: desertrunnergirl@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007 Breaking News
>> From: RacingThePlanet <info@racingtheplanet.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:30:42 -0700
>>
---------------------------------

Pre-Race, 10.26.07, 10:29am: 73 athletes completed
check-in and are boarding a bus for the Sahara Desert.
Race starts tomorrow!

RUN KEN RUN! Donate to Ken's run. Donations go to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. See who's pledged/donated. Hop in and contribute, folks.

We need the WFF. Bad things happen to good people. "There but for the grace of god (or the fates) go we." Our families deserve to have their way smoothed, heaven forbid, if such an event occurs. (I just wrote the response to the post below, which certainly brings the reality home to me...) Ab.

10/27 Notification of news agencies

Morning,

I'm still on my crusade to get the WFF info out to the public for donation solicitations.
In reading "they said", you reference knowing Al and that he now works for NBC News SW Bureau.

Would it be possible to ask HIM to spread the word?

Good luck, keep up the great job.

PS - Are there ANY general updates that can be provided on the condition of the burned firefighters? Initial reports said critical, with inhalation burns. Don't need/want names - just concerned & hoping for some good news...

Thanks

capellocpa

Hi capellocpa, thank you for getting the word out in support of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (WFF). Thanks also to Sbrrymom. I'll try to reply to your emails today.

Regarding our burned CalFire comrades, you're not the only ones asking. Here's what I know.

I did hear from some firefighter friends that the four that were burned over on the Harris fire were transported to the UCSD burn center.

One female and one male are critical condition with lung burns. They were in induced coma to allow best healing. I believe they've been taken off the coma-inducing drug, perhaps yesterday or the day before. I would like to know how they're doing now.

The other two who are not critical but will be a time healing... One (Capt) has 1st degree burns to his face and 2nd degree burns to his hands. The other, a firefighter who has worked as a firefighter for less than 6 months, has 2nd degree to parts of his face and 1st degree to back, elbows, legs. My thoughts and prayers are with them and with those who helped rescue.

Our great thanks to the WFF for its presence and constancy in support. Kudos to CalFire which does a great job with supporting their own and the families as well.

Ab.

10/27 more praises

I have been with the fire community since 1974 as a forest service fire fighter, prevention and recreation tech, currently a member of one of the CIIMTs. I did not work the Firestorm of 2007 in southern ca this time because I did not want to lose my house a second time. I was under mandatory evacuation for sometime, but refused to let it happen again and did everything I could to save it, and it worked.

Now to the meat of the subject. We all sing the praises of the fire fighter, but nothing is said of the dispatchers of CNF and Monte Vista, I had 2 scanners working non-stop for 4 days. The people of dispatch did an outstanding job of reporting and organizing an attack on several incidents at the same time. Good job and may you get some much needed rest before the next siege.

A Dollar Short and a Day Late

Thanks to all the Dispatchers out there, often unrecognized and under-appreciated, but ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to the firefighting effort, and often de facto playing the role of IC in their allocation of resources in the breaking stages of IA. Ab.

10/27 Ab,

As of Friday morning, 27 ODF personnel, and 1 Type 6 Engine have dispatched to Southern
California. Pretty doggone good for a small state agency, at the end of a very busy fire season.

Kellie

No kidding. Good job. And thanks Kellie for your photo to be in the 2008 Wildlandfire Calendar. Ab.

10/27 airtac,

You said, "Most SZ forests (which is where most of the resources are kegged up), rated a relatively low complexity compared to many programs in other states."

Could you please explain? I don't think I am following your statement? The only "Forest" that even comes close is Savannah River Plant which isn't even a National Forest. It is a DOE nuclear power plant facility with the surrounding wildland protected by the Forest Service.

If I am remembering correctly, each and every forest in California was rated as "High Complexity" several years ago as the initial FPA complexity analysis' were completed.

You also said, "Don't think this is solely because of the fire management mission needs in CA ..." in reference to the proportion of firefighters available.

Please understand that the State of California has the largest number of acres of NFS protected lands in the United States. The NFS lands in California also have the largest amounts of WUI and values at risk.

Even with the above facts, the areas with the largest fire suppression costs (utilizing the stratified cost index) continue to be Regions 1 and 6.

Gizmo
10/27 Jim Barnes (and Ramona Crew):

Having watched the same thing go down a time or two at Hemet in the 90s when
Ray Saucedo and CDF counterparts were there, I can't agree with you more.

One day I saw a continuous stream of 17 heavy airtankers load and return out
of Hemet from 1030 to 2000 with the precision of an atomic clock. Certainly
a thing of beauty.

Hugh Carson
10/26 After spending the last week and a half at Ramona Airtanker Base during the extreme Santa Ana Wind event I learned some important lessons. The first being that firefighting under the most extreme burning conditions I have ever witnessed in So Cal. is another world. I have to admit to being more than a little shell shocked. The second lesson is one that I have relearned many times. That is that the media often abandons reporting the facts and the interest of the public good to evoke an emotional response by attacking the very people that risk their lives to fight the fire in order to develop a “hot story”. The first few days CALFIRES air program was continuously criticized for an inadequate response. Statements were made that the military could have done a better job.

Here are some facts that I am aware of; Airtanker Pilots Mike Venable, Billy Hoskins, Bob Forbes and Lynn McGrew made a valiant attempt to stop the Witch fire under conditions that tested their aircraft and airmanship to their very limits. They decided to stop flight operations only when it became apparent that further efforts would be to no avail. In my humble opinion their actions were heroic. Shortly after that no aircraft in the inventory civil or military could have survived in the wing breaking turbulence and zero visibility that existed well into the next day.

Upon seeing our Chief getting out of the Air Attack ship trying to hold back his tears, I knew that something terrible had happened on the Harris Fire. It had. Some of our Firefighters were burned over and severely injured in addition to one civilian fatality. They happened to be Firefighters that were very close to the Ramona Air Attack Base family. The US Forest Service Firefighters that rescued them were also a part of that family.

The entire compliment of the Ramona Air Attack Base deserves our praise and the gratitude of every citizen living in San Diego County. Their performance was exemplary in every way. When they ran out of water, water tenders were ordered and ran around the clock to keep Ramona Air Attack Base operational. After fighting fire all night with her husband to save her home and her neighborhood Sheri Lee showed up for work at 6:00 AM to perform her duties at the tanker base keeping everything running smoothly as she always does.

Ramona Air Attack Base is an example of the best we have to offer starting with its leadership and ending with a team of professionals. The nerve center in the tower, the ramp managers, aircraft directors and loaders are a well oiled machine. They handled a third of our total airtanker fleet and three Air Attack ships and never missed a beat.

I didn’t work out of Hemet except to reload once but I can say with great confidence that the same level of excellence and dedication to the mission was operating there as well.

On the statue of the Iwo Jima Memorial it states that “uncommon valor was a common virtue”. After seeing our ground Firefighters putting themselves in harms way time after time to provide for the protection and safety of others I believe that they can proudly lay claim to that sacred creed.

Jim Barnes
10/26 Mellie, 4300 is about right. With some increase since 2005, R-5 is probably pushing 4600 now with the recently added helicopters/helitankers.

CB, I don’t think we need to go there. I wouldn’t want to shake the man's hand in the first place (and I voted for him and I’ll never forgive myself for that mistake). If he could, he would give your job to state and local government in a New York minute. Fortunately, the Feinsteins of this world won’t allow that to happen. OK Abs, no more politics, sorry, as you say, carry on.....

AB, news agencies, - My lord talk about some crazy stuff going on with those news channels. Nothing short of having one fire engine and one hand crew for every 1/10 of acre for each burnable acre would have made a difference. You could have had every C-130 in the free world loading and returning and every helicopter from our NATO allies with a bucket on them and houses would still have burned. Santa Ana winds events and wildfires create extremely serious situations. A 100 mph wind gusts will usually ruin your day (one way or the other). Wildfires and Santa Ana’s have been occurring for thousands of years and will continue for thousands of more years. The only difference is about 16 million people have decided to live in the area, with 16 news channels trying increase ratings, using 16 different reporters who think they should be Division A for the day.

Mother Nature was in charge for about 2-3 days this week. However, this does not mean fire orgs are not effective in limiting these types of events and averting other mega fires throughout any given fire season. Strong fire organizations (local, state, county and Fed) are a must. 12 large fires occurred this week. Dozens, if not hundreds, were picked up at IA this week. This was due the hard work of many of you and the financial support we have from the American people to maintain strong fire organizations. Finally, what the heck ever did happen to CNN's Aaron Brown? He was a good dude.

Letterman
10/26 Santiago Canyon Fire

The fire made pretty good runs today. The on-shore flow is in full alignment with horribly dry and dead fuel beds (Oak Croak and drought) and steep canyons. The containment box currently set is rather large. They even have double letter divisions being set up. There is a mild off-shore event possibly coming Sunday and Monday which could blow this back down canyon at the affected residential neighborhoods. Santiago Canyon residences had a mandatory evac order today and the Holy Jim Canyon could become problematic if the wind event materializes.

As of now, it is heading uphill trying to slop over into Riverside County above the city of Corona and communities south. The biggest problem with this is the history of these hills and incredibly unpredictable winds. There have been firefighter fatalities on the “Elsinore Front Country” due to these conditions. So firefighter safety has been a huge issue for the command team and they are taking it very, very seriously. They actually pulled all units off the main divide road (divides Orange County from Riverside County at the top of the mountain) last night due to extreme fire conditions and basically said, we will see what the damage looks like in the morning.

That is it for now…

CC

Hotlist on Santiago Fire

10/26 Thanks to Vicki, Lobotomy and the WFF!

Lobotomy, the visit you paid to the burned firefighters from the Harris fire at the UC San Diego Burn center is truly appreciated by us. The WFF is an organization that shares what it has when it can to our brothers and sisters who may be well cared for but the personal touches like this are sure a morale builder for those injured and their families. ALSO, to those who saw to it that those four firefighters were sent directly to a burn center; KUDOS for a job well done and some very accurate decision making! Your quick thinking hastened the qualified specialized medical attention they needed so badly. If we all stick together and support each other we can all make a difference.

Thank you WFF!

Normbc9

These were the CalFire firefighters who were burned over on the Harris Fire. Thank you for visiting them. Ab.

10/26 Hugh

In '93 we were prepositioned in Orange County because of predicted Santa Anna winds. When the Topanga Canyon fire broke in Malibu, we responded with a massive number of resources. We made a brave stand and were able to stop the fire at the Pacific Ocean. (We never did get any thanks from the folks from Hawaii.)

I don't know that any amount of response will stop a fire when you have drought stressed fuels, high winds, low RH and warm temps. I believe that the battle is best won prior to the ignition. Why are there still homes in the interface that lack non-flammable building materials, lack of defensible space, lousy access, etc.?

Maybe with this amount of loss, the insurance companies will take a leadership role in making homeowners take responsibility for reducing the fire hazard from around their homes. I know that they are the only ones who have the leverage to make that happen.

Swing by next time you are in town. I am in NY for the next week but will be back in town after that.

Tim

Haw Haw on the Hawaii. Ab.

10/26 Mellie,

There is no question that federal firefighting resources in CA have a challenging mission and the workforce is nearly half that of the national federal workforce. Don't think this is solely because of the fire management mission needs in CA. It has a great deal to do with politics, many times to the detriment of fire programs in other DOI and DOA agencies in other states.

As an element of the National Fire Plan, each fire management unit completed an objective complexity analysis of their fire program which was reviewed and validated. This analysis considered all elements of a fire program, (fuels, weather, topography, WUI, cooperating agencies, fire occurrence, fuels management, fire use, etc. Most SZ forests (which is where most of the resources are kegged up), rated a relatively low complexity compared to many programs in other states. Hence, fire and fuels budgets and allocation of firefighter resources are not based solely on fire program complexity.

I don't mean to diminish the current situation in SZ. Hope the weather changes soon.

airtac

Are you saying indirectly that you think all the South Zone forces will be reduced? Ab.

10/26 CB:

I have to agree with AB...I was thrilled and honored to see the President greet the E-32 crew (Inyo?) yesterday.

Yup, CAL-FIRE gets all the press...so what. There are some of us working behind the scenes to ensure those who are at the federal level know exactly what you are doing for California & the Nation not only during this fire siege, but all year long.

Additionally, there was an interview with a young lady, Forest Service, while she was cutting line. She spoke as she continued to work. Her helmet said E-44 so I hope someone can identify her for me. She epitomized the federal wildland firefighter, their work ethic, their "not-so-much-in-the-public-eye" incredibly hard work and perhaps more than any other image I've seen from SoCal this week validated why I do what I do, why Ab does what Ab does and why Vicki Minor of the WFF does what she does.

To whomever that young lady was... thank you for the endearing image you gave to all of America.

Casey
10/26 A "DESERT RUNNER DUDE" ADVENTURE THREAD:

Could we put this message from Wendy on TheySaid? I think it would be great for Ken
to see all the support he has out there.

Thanks,
Lori
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you know, Ken is in Egypt right now, just a couple of days away
from the start of his big 150 mile run through the Sahara Desert
with Racing the Planet!!

The runners are able to receive emails each night, received at each
camp and then printed off and handed out (kind of like getting a
care package at summer camp!!). Here is the link to send Ken an
email:

www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14

There's a pull down menu - just choose his name and send him a
note!! I think it would be great if he could gets lots and lots of
emails each evening. I know it would be very motivating and mean A
LOT to him!!

So send Ken a daily email!! Starting Sunday October 28 and ending
Friday November 2 - big stacks of emails for Kenneth!!

10/26 Thanks for keeping up the Theysaid site.

I'm no longer working on fires but like to hear what is going on from the ones who do, and see those pictures. Those flame lengths in SoCal were amazing. Also just happened on the fire shelter story tonite on NBC news, that's also amazing to see pictures carried nationally of shelter deployment, put my heart in my mouth.

Also tonite the PBS report was great, with the story including the morning briefing and giving credit to the extensive amount of information such as archeological resources to protect, and other info such as comm freqs (my old job) that were shared to crew bosses etc.

Good to see the attitude of professionalism, safety and enthusiasm continues.

Call me "Piemaker".

Glad you visit Piemaker. Heres the Hotlist thread on the Santiago Fire Deployment. Ab.

10/26 From Firescribe:

Another way the rich are different: 'concierge-level' fire protection

www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-richfire26oct26,0,3352683.story?coll=la-home-business

When Southland clients' multimillion-dollar homes were threatened, insurer AIG dispatched crews with fire retardant.
By Kimi Yoshino, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 26, 2007

RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. -- Bryce Carrier's cellphone rang at 3 a.m.: Help! The fire is almost to my house.

Carrier hopped into his heavy-duty red Ford F-550 and sped to northeast Poway, dodging fallen eucalyptus and heading straight toward the wind-whipped blaze. He arrived to find flames marching up an embankment toward the multimillion-dollar home.

Yanking out the hose in the back of his truck, he began applying Phos-Chek fire retardant along the perimeter of the property, the shrubs and the roof. When the flames hit the milky white liquid, they stopped.

Another home saved.

Carrier is a certified firefighter, but he doesn't work for a government agency. He's an employee of Firebreak Spray Systems, which partners with the insurance company American International Group Inc. to protect the mansions of the moneyed.

Click the link to read more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One article that summarizes the media hype over aircraft, as though that was the answer... Rules exist for a reason.
Firescribe

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21478621/
Bureaucracy hampered initial Calif. fire efforts
Rules kept firefighting aircraft on ground as devastating blazes took hold

10/26 Here are some stats from 2005 on Federal Firefighter numbers and percentages by agency:
 
NATIONAL STATS by DEPARTMENT (agency)

# FIREFIGHTERS

TOTAL

PERCENT

DOA Forest Service firefighters
DOI firefighters (BLM, FWS and BIA)
9,385
5,752
15,137 62%
38%
       
CALIFORNIA to rest of the NATION for Forest Service      
CALIFORNIA
REST of the NATION
4,317
5,068
9,385 46%
54%

In 2005 California Forest Service firefighters comprised about 28.5% of all federal firefighters.

CB, California Forest Service Firefighters do a heck of a lot of firefighting for California and for the nation. (Note that Pincha-Tulley's team (Ranch Fire) and Oplinger's team (Buckwheet Fire) also supported hurricane Katrina victims two years ago. Where did they come from? They came up through the ranks in California.)

You all have a right to be proud, as do CalFire firefighters, and the rest of our hardworking, firefighting civil servants from all agencies.

Thank you!

Mellie

10/26 On the lighter side....

One of our type 6 engines is making its way to SoCal today. Our Training Officer,
who's in charge of all things gadgety, turned on his super secret remote locator gadget
(it's either on the Nextel or the MCT's wireless card... he wouldn't spill the beans)
to check their progress.

The phone call started out something like this...
"Hey, are you guys must be getting fuel at the corner of xxxx and xxxx in Medford, OR?"

Loooooooooonnnnggg pause on the other end....
"uh, yeah... how did you know?"

"Don't worry about it. Drive safe!"

... Maybe we'll tell them how we knew when they come home.
10/26 NBC Nightly News tonight

Ab,

NBC Nightly news is working on a story for tonight on the burnover involving 12 members of the Orange County Fire Authority on the Santiago Fire. Incident occurred approx 1505 Monday 22 Oct.

We interviewed personnel involved in the burnover and the LA Times photographer who happened to be on the road below the site. She took a number of astonishing pictures of the event.

FYI
Al Henkel

Ab replied:

Yep, doesn't surprise me. We had names and info out here on the hotlist early on and had a number of inquiries:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2253 Is it your NBC piece?

Al replied:

Yes. I also shot a lot of the material from Poway and Rancho Bernardo. Thanks.

Ab comment about Al Henkel: I "met" Al in 2001 when he was a photo journalist for the Modesto Bee. His son was a Groveland Hotshot. Al did the basic firefighter training and went out with the crew on occasion, if I remember correctly. Al provided some very nice photos then that have since been used by many in this community for training powerpoints, etc. Then he retired... and now he's "Bureau Chief/Producer NBC News, SW Bureau".

I'll be watching your show Al. Thanks for the heads up.

10/26 Here is a pic of shelter deployment on the SANTIAGO FIRE which appeared in several newspapers.

Seems as though there were SEVERAL SITUATIONS in which firefighters had to shelter in place or deploy fully or partially their fireshelters!!

Luckily everyone is safe.

Be safe out there!!
Know your 10's & 18's
Fight fire aggressively but ALWAYS provide for SAFETY FIRST!!

CM

Readers you can see a little version of the picture CM references on a link (says PHOTO) via the hotlist HERE.

10/26 From the hotlist forum: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2166

CA-ORC-Santiago - (URGENT UPDATE)

As of 1:10 PM 10/26/07, the fire is within one hour of Silverado Canyon.
Orange Co Sheriff Deputies are attempting to evacuate remaining residents.

The Satellite Maps show hot spots all long the southern side of Silverado
and mostly at the eastern end of the canyon.

It's SO smoky where I am I can see the actual fire but the satellites and
cell phone calls are confirming the situation as well.

Be safe! Ab.

10/26 Ab:

I totally agree with your estimation of CNN "having fallen."

I haven't really watched CNN since Aaron Brown left. He was a thoughtful
analyst with an ironic, humorous approach. The following additional example
was I think MS-NBC, which I highly respect (Keith O) but this was Dan Abrams
whom I don't respect at all - he goes for the easy answer like Anderson
Cooper.

What riled me was both media outlets going after the Administration for
depleting the CA Natl Guard's domestic capability by the troops' overseas
duty in Iraq. This may be true to some extent (the quote was "we're down 75
generators, etc, etc").

As you know, I'm no great fan of the Administration, but come on!! The
major media don't even seem to know that the proper and most effective
deployment of Guard resources, most of whom have Iraq/Afghan experience, is
in logistics roles of evac, LE, medical, camp/supplies. They have it in
their mind that the Guard can in fact deploy off their trucks into
subdivisions in 80 mph winds and start digging line. Faced with that, most
might want to return to downtown Fallujah.

The point is the media have apparently totally lost their capability to do
true investigative reporting, which involves one hell of a lot more than
the easy sound bite or anti-Administration grandstanding to please their
Democratic (of which I am proudly one) listeners.

What is really cool for my own realization that you can't kneejerk responses
based on the political flavor of the media is this: the absolute best
analysis I've seen in the past 6 days was by PBS (wait, wait!!!), I think on
Wednesday night, by Paul McHale, who has been the Assistant Secretary of
Defense for Homeland Defense since February 2003. In this position, he is
responsible for the supervision of all homeland defense activities of the
Department of Defense. Also briefing were two DOD generals representing the
Guard Bureau in DOD.

PBS was broadcasting this briefing to review how and with what DOD was
responding. His presentation was incredible: insightful, knowledgeable, not
overplaying DOD's role or capability, admitting the mistakes and lessons
learned of Katrina - in short, he was awesome. He even knew the training
time it takes to get foot soldiers up to speed to actively fight fire, and
even seemed to be aware that they are usually deployed in mop-up situations.
If I were king for a day, I'd appoint Mr. McHale for Secretary of Homeland
Security in a heartbeat.

Anderson Cooper and Dan Abrams could take a lesson or two from him.

Hugh Carson
10/26 Ok this is petty and I know we have all thought it, but yesterday while the President and diplomats were greeting firefighters at the ICP, all the focus was on CalFire. We (USFS and others) were shunned we were told we could stand with the rest of the firefighters and that when we brought our engines in, we couldn't park in certain areas as they were reserved for CalFire. (Some of our crews were able to find ways around CalFire captains who let us stand near them).
  • Let's all remember that CalFire is not single-handily fighting every fire in California,
  • Let's remember that they work 24 on 24 off and the feds (Forest Service, BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA) work 16 on 8 off. This means that in a 4 day period federal crews put in 64 hours of suppression while Calfire is on the line for 48hrs.
  • Let's also not forget about the local/municipalities and groundpounders from all over the West and across the US. I have seen engines from New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Washington, Oregon and I have seen federal hotshot crews from all over the country. Everyone is working long hours and doing what we can to give residents something to come home too.
  • Let's not praise one agency over another.
  • Let's not point fingers at one agency's tactics vs another's.

We need to work together because this is where we gather our strength and our true complimentary abilities come out.

Please all of you be safe, we have turned a corner but this is by no means over and the chance will remain for large fires and life threatening situations.

Small side note.
Daniel Yanez a fire fighter for the USFS Cleveland National Forest lost his home while on the lines trying to protect others. Please send good thoughts and prayers and remember that WFF and Redcross are great places to donate.

CB

Hi there CB. I watched the Gov and the Pres yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised when, before his speech, the Pres shook hands with a whole string of Forest Service crewmembers standing in front of a green engine -- Inyo NF E-32 (if more numbers, couldn't see the first one). Only after that did the Pres and his entourage go on to shake hands with other firefighters. The videographer did "good" in capturing the Pres shaking hands with FS groundpounders in front of the green engine. It was the first time I've seen that in all my years of watching. So in spite of, or maybe because of, the jockeying for position you experienced, the FS forces were acknowledged. CalFire, Orange County, LA County, Ventura Co, all cooperators, we need all of us working on containing these fires together.

I'm curious if anyone has a statistical breakdown on the number of fed and other agency wildland firefighters: Forest Service vs other fed agencies nationally; Forest Service in CA vs FS across the country vs other fed agencies; Fed vs states (CalFire, ODF, WA-DNR, etc. And how many private sector wildland firefighters. Sometimes I wonder who we are exactly. Ab.

10/26 Hey Ab...

NICELY DONE ON THE LAST POST...!!!!!!!

Kudos to you for telling it like it is.

CalFire does indeed put an observer with each and every ship...they are trained and qualified to do so. Most are Helitack Fire Captains with the experience that the position DEMANDS.

Pilots are not just whizzing around up here...we have to check in with our particular ATGS on our particular part of our particular fire on our assigned particular radio frequency... and remain in contact with him/her throughout our fly cycle on that assignment. Things are very fluid and very active to say the least.

Again... thanks so much for telling the truth and not condescending to those flaming idiot "experts" on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, The Weather Channel (yes, that's right...!!) CBS, NBC, ABC, ad nauseam...

Keep at 'er...

COPTER 100
10/26 Ok, I'm going to change the subject. We all know about the fires in
California, so I'm going to try a different song and dance.

Tell us about a fire YOU started or accidentally started. Mine was
started out of innocence, ignorance, and perhaps a good dose of stupidity.

At age 17 I spent a summer with an uncle and grandmother on Mullholland
Highway in a house on about three acres. I'm guessing you can't find that
house for sale now for anything close to the $66,666 asking price in 1969.
Want the exact location? I believe it was just across from the
intersection of the Cold Canyon Road. The map of the area on google looks
surprisingly unchanged.

I knew little about fire, humidity, wind speed, and fuel loading. I do
know the chaparral out being the house had leaf little over a foot deep in
places. I thought that was pretty cool! I had no idea is was great fuel.

Bees. I was tending a bee hive. The day was windy, maybe 15mph blowing in
off the coast from several miles away. I tired to light my hive smoker
with rags in a can. The wind kept blowing out my matches. Today that
would have been a hint, but at the time I had no idea of what I was about
to start. After each blew out, I threw it on the ground and tried another.
Suddenly, I looked down at my feet at a foot size circle of fire. I
started stamping. I got one half of the circle out with the first steps
while the other half doubled in size. I stamped out another half and again
the other half doubled, undoing any progress. I stood there for what
seemed an eternity, stamping out new flame and spreading fire as I went.
Fortunately for the local residents, including my uncle who's house was
fifty feet down wind through waist high cured grasses, by the time the
black reached a three foot diameter I had outstamped the fire's spread.

I learned a bit about fire, matches, and especially wind that day.

Anyone have another story? We need to lighten up a bit.

Sedgehead.
10/26

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOMENT   OF  SILENCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-57 Remembered
1200 hours


Thank you.

10/26 Today is the first anniversary of our loss of five good men on the Esperanza Fire. Please join us in a moment of silence at noon, commemorating E-57's crew: Lotzie, Gus, Jason, Pablo and Danny.

Memories:
www.engine57memorial.org/thecrew.html and
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/engine57.htm
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/eng57/dietrich-walker.htm

"This high performance team ... all kept working for the safety of the public and to raise the bar of professionalism for the United States Forest Service.

Our challenge now is to honor the memory of our fallen brothers, Mark, Jess, Jason, Pablo and Danny. To do this we're all going to have to work a little bit harder and be a little bit better, because Engine Company 57 raised the bar for all of us…..forever."

Norm Walker at the memorial service.

Each of us honor them by raising the bar in what we do every day.

Be safe.

Ab.

10/26 Gordo and All,

I have heard the same behind the scenes, that the work-rest guidelines have been stretched. But what do you do in a 36-48 hour IA situation with 60mph winds,? You certainly don't lie down for a nap. Resources were not available to relieve firefighters in the middle of the firefight. No doubt, other guidelines that were violated have to do with incident complexity and the fact that fires can go from Type 4 to Type 2 even Type 1 complexity in less than an hour under Santa Ana conditions with multiple agencies responding, public evacs, etc; Type 4 or 3 ICs are not redcarded to manage Type 2 or 1 complexity fires. But what do they do? Say, "oops, this is too complex for my level of training, I'm out'ta here" and walk away? That would be irresponsible as well and people could die. If someone was injured or died on their watch under the old "rules" applied by DOJ and OPM and OSHA, the IC would have to pony up big bucks for legal fees to defend him or herself. To me that's de facto "guilty" if you can't afford to prove your innocence.

There have also been problems with communication:. For example, couple of days ago only one 800 mhz unit was provided to an entire crew on the Santiago Fire and the batteries went dead after several hours. If I'm not wrong, there should be one unit for each 5 firefighters, has to do with span of control. Communications is key. LCES

And then the media is yelling that CalFire should relax standards and not have a CA Fire Agency observer flying with military units... Gim'me'a'break. First, military unit radios do not work on the same frequencies as fire command. We either all need to be on the same freq or we need a person along who can communicate. Secondly, some military air resources have worked fighting fire in CA. Some have not. How do military pilots know where and when to lay retardant or water? What if they inadvertently hit groundpounders?

There was one good interchange on the news last night. The CNN reporter discussing air resources kept trying to get the military general in charge of co-operating air resources to state something in a way that would assign blame to CalFire. The general repeated 3 or 4 times with HIS OWN careful wording and added that CalFire firefighters are the experts in the firefighting arena. Good for him. On another note, it's no wonder that we don't have all the recommendations from the 2003 Blue Ribbon Panel tied down. Everyone, especially the media, but also politicians, presumes they're the expert.

CNN has really fallen in my estimation. Anderson whats-his-name's "keeping them honest segment", what bullsh*t! The public hears that same cr*p over and over again and in their minds, it comes to be true. It's a form of brainwashing and they do us all a disservice. Firefighters and firefighter supporters, we need to keep pulling together because it's not done, the fires are still burning. Let's not be distracted because of the "blaming climate" the media is creating. (I think Anderson Cooper's producers would have been happier if Qual Comm was like The Superdome. Tell the story, make it negative, get the emotional response and hook the viewers... Sad.)

There will be lessons to be learned to further our readiness for this type of firestorm event in the future, in spite of the media and politics. Compared to 2003, I think we're doing much better. And we can do better still.

Congrats to Pincha Tulley's CIIMTeam 3 and Oplinger's CIIMTeam 4 on the Ranch and Buckweed fires, respectively. It's nice to have successes under our belt. Now for the rest. I wish you all success!

Carry on! Set the bar high.

Ab.

10/26 Greetings AB,

I heard a news story on CNBC yesterday. They were interviewing ground firefighters in SoCal. This one guy went on about how he hasn't slept in 36 hours, been on the line continuously and now that they have a break, he was going to bed down on the ground in a ball park. Perhaps it was just bravado. Do you guys still work those kinds of hours? Is there anybody out there who is still so mission driven that they go 36 hours without sleep on the line?

I seem to recall that safety of the firefighters was the top priority. How safe can a person's decision making process be after a night without sleep? Somebody please tell me this guy was just trying to make himself out to be a bigger hero than the rest.

All the best,
Gordo
10/26 The DC-7's and the Martin Mars are under contract with CAL FIRE for
this unprecedented fire siege California is under.

Cal Fire Jake
10/26 >From 12/31/2006:

George Pozzuto said,

"If at all possible, I encourage every one to avoid being anonymous and become very active in the defense for Ellreese Daniels. He deserves it and so do all of the rest of us who continually put our families in jeopardy every time we respond to the call for action."

Ellreese Daniels isn't a criminal. He might be a f-up with a cloud that follows him with poor personal decisions and actions, but he didn't do anything that was criminal negligence or homicide in any actions in relation to the Thirtymile fire.

Hopefully he has a good attorney and friends supporting him. Ellreese got two big "strikes" against my continued support over the last year.... both strikes personal..... drugs and abuse of others.....something I despise....... so far, he has been cleared of both....... my patience and support wears thin.....

In any case, Ellreese didn't commit a crime during Thirtymile......

Rogue Rivers

10/26 normbc;

Wow someone who has been around those hill's as long as i have. I lived at the Calif. Div. of Highway's station ( now Caltrans) in Guatay from 1944 to 1963, then various east co. locations until 2003.

I remember my grandfather who was the hwy. foreman, taking me up to Cuymaca and we watched the Conejos fire going over Cuymaca peak from the old trout ponds.

I also remember a fire on North Peak, it burned down one of the repeater towers. I believe it was on mothers day, 1972 or 1973.

7107
10/26 Ab,

KFI AM 640, a local Southern California radio station, has put $100,000 towards the reward money for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the Santiago Fire arsonist.

With their donation, the total reward money is now $250,000.

Last year, KFI AM 640 raised nearly $70,000 in a four hour broadcast for the families of the fallen Esperanza firefighters. They also provided coverage of both the IRS and Franchise Tax Board laws that needed to be changed so that the Esperanza families could receive donated money tax free. They reported on the reconstruction of Maria's home and what was needed to complete it. (They also roasted Tennie Pierce... ).

On the morning program, the Ellreese Daniels (Thirty Mile) case was mentioned several times.

With the exception of "Coast to Coast", since Sunday, their coverage has been exclusively continual coverage of the Southern California wildfires. This has been a great service to the communities, but also to the wildland firefighters on the fireline worrying about their friends and family in the southland.

Eric, John K., Lea, Terrie Rae, Michelle, Ken, John Z., Bill, Wayne, Jay L., and the entire KFI staff that I may have forgotten to mention.... thank you!!! You are friends of the wildland fire community.

Eric, hope to see you at LAX on the 6th of November as Ken Perry returns from his quest in Egypt in support of wildland firefighters and their families.

/s/ A Federal Wildland Firefighter

P.S. - Four wildland firefighters remain at UCSD Medical Center recovering from serious burns on the Harris Fire in San Diego county. Eight wildland firefighters have given their lives in the line of duty this year. Support the WFF!!!
10/26 In early October, both the NoOps and SoOps intel shops posted the following message on their Energy Release Component pages:

"Winter conditions of snow covered fuels require that the ERC and fuel moisture graphs be temporarily discontinued. The graphs for this page are generated by FireFamily Plus. Weather station data imported into FireFamily Plus during the months of snow covered fuels does not contain all required information to generate accurate NFDRS outputs. This is due to missing Wet Fuels flag information in the imported FWX data and the FireFamily Plus program not being programmed to utilize the information imported using the FW9 format. Accurate values can be obtained from the Weather Information Management System (WIMS) - if the daily observation represents the snow covered fuels by properly "forcing" the Wet Fuels flag entry."

It appears the problem has been fixed in SoOps as the ERC and fuel moisture graphs are being updated again. Hopefully the "wet fuels" confusion doesn't need further explanation. In any case, the "wet fuels" forcing correction should never be applied to areas that do not receive snowfall...... and especially never applied to rainfall events, or days with increased RH.

I recommend that a SoOps Intel group be formed and chaired by the Intel Officer. Each individual forest, district, park, and CAL FIRE unit would be represented by their local fire behavior and fuels experts, and provide local expertise and knowledge in preparedness and response planning. A representative from NWS-San Diego, NWS-Oxnard, NWS-Phoenix, NWS-Las Vegas, NWS-Hanford, and NWS-Monterey, and a representative from the Riverside FWU would also participate.

On a bi-weekly basis, a fire behavior and fuels outlook would be generated with a minimum of additional work. The benefits would be an increase in firefighter and community safety, a better handle on fire preparedness needs in the local area, and a tool to quantify required staffing and/or draw down levels to support other areas or regions during periods of reduced fire hazard.

Lobotomy

10/25 From FireDonkey on the Hotlist:

From the Director:

All Cal Fire facilities will fly their flags a half staff today in memory of the crew of
Engine 57. A moment of silence will be observed a 12 noon today.

10/25 Moment of Silence Tomorrow for E-57

A little belated, however I thought I would follow up.

Vicki Jackson, thank you, very well done. We will be silent at 1200. It would of been great to hear from our FAM Director, however your direction seems to be the best for the families, the Service and employees.

Just a Hotshot - Your not just a Hotshot. More important than being a Hotshot is being a good person and someone who cares about other people. I'm sure your good at all three. Impressive write up. Just to close on your post, please do me a favor. Next time your on the Internet do a google search, type in: "MLK and things that matter": Find the match, think about what you just discovered and live by it for the rest of your life.

Letterman

10/25 Arsonists

So, "They Said" posters, the media and everyone else is stuck on the monday morning QB'ing and
what if games. What if the Marines had been called earlier? What if we pre-positioned thousands
of resources? What if global warming caused the fires to get bigger? I say: What if we had the
death penalty for arsonists? Most if not all of the recent fires were arson. The public, firefighters,
law enforcement, and the media should be blaming the ones who started the fires in the first
place ,not the people who risk life and limb to try to stop these conflagrations.

And if you are against the death penalty for arsonists, maybe you would support stump breaking
them with a lit fusee. They deserve nothing less. Can you tell that I don't like them?

How many of you have ever seen an established Santa Ana wind driven fire stopped by mere humans,
with or with out air support. We catch them after the wind stops blowing or when the on-shore
rebound winds blow them back on themselves and the marine flow brings in the higher rh's. By the
way, that is when the backfires actually work.

Anyone else out there surprised to see G.W. not blaming Al-Queda for the fires?

Dan-O

Got a call from a firefighter on a crew on the Santiago fire today. He said about 20 FBI agents were carefully working all over the place at the 3 sites of origin. Always better to hold the comments and work the scene... Ab.

10/25 Back fire and burn out in a 100 mph wind in brush? I won't even address
that foolish idea.