Thanks, I added them: "IHC-->Fire Manager" Project Ab.

Please take the time to do the Jobs Survey. Can someone please contact the hotshot supts, captains, squaddies; the engine captains' group, division chiefs, etc to tell them to request that their firefighters do the survey. If not do the entire survey, could those organizations at least gather the numbers in house? I've heard Jay Perkins is retiring. More power to him. Fine man! Fine Fire professional! Does anyone know of other R5 FMOs that are retiring? Ab.

Order your Wildlandfire.com '08 CALENDAR! Ab.

We (USFS, BLM, NPS) have problems retaining employees because other Fire
Departments want these guys and gals due to their experience, knowledge,
leadership and training.... a no brainer. However, the Fire and Aviation
Managers and Washington Leaders of these agencies that I mentioned earlier
will not FIGHT to retain a single person. Someone please explain why? Is
it because they think that we are a "dime a dozen"? They can find any
person off the street to do our job? Whatever happened to PEOPLE FIRST?
We put Firefighter and public safety first on every incident, but when off
the firelines it doesn't appear that we're first. Someone PLEASE stand up
for your people, stand up for us just like we do for our employees here at
the ground level. Please remember what Colin Powell says, "Being
responsible sometimes means pissing people off."

GS-401. How much does the Forest Service pay for one person to attend this
training? How many years have we been doing this program? What TRUE
BENEFIT has our people came away with? I am just saying we are in a
financial crunch and are unable to retain our folks due to better pay at
other Agencies. Maybe we could use that money (TFM/401 programs) to
increase our pay and then maybe retain some of these folks instead of
spending so much of it on the 401 program. Another option is to get rid of
the 401 altogether (that probably opened a can of worms). By cutting the
program we save money that we put can to our employee salaries, benefits,
equipment, facilities, vehicles...

I apologize if I offended any person the is 401 or currently completing
401, I can assure that was not my intention. I, like so many others, want to
retain our outstanding folks. I have several friends that have left to
"greener pastures" and I hate to see us lose that knowledge, skill and
leadership.

Football Fan.

Riddle me this...
The purpose of this letter is to notify employees in the GS-401, Fire Management Series of the " NEW" Office of Personnel Management (OPM) qualification requirements which were effective on February 15, 2005.

Riddle me that...
Unfortunately, "WE DID NOT BECOME AWARE OF THESE NEW REQUIREMENTS" until early 2007.

How can this OPM qualification requirement which became effective in February 2005 be defined as "NEW"?
And then the "UNFORTUNATE" error of not becoming aware of these new requirements?
Only out of the mouths of bureaucrats . Looks and sounds like extremely poor staff work to me! And for something seen by some in this agency as "SO IMPORTANT" to future fire management programs.

Does the future circle the drain clock-wise or counter-clockwise?

The Riddler

Yep, results will be posted here. Ab.

I hope OPM didn't just destroy the fire program across the nation. Students at Humboldt State University (CA) now need 5 and a half to 6 years of going to school full time to complete their BA using traditional channels, because critical, required classes are impacted. You can't get into the classes on first try. To think a wildland firefighter, well along in his or her career, could take time off to take classes leading to a traditional degree is not realistic. I pointed this out some years ago when R5 was looking to bring people up to speed on the new DOI-created requirements. R5 got on the ball to help its fire-trained professionals jump through the academic hoops. Hopefully, there will be a fix on this new OPM problem, given all the years of effort that have gone into working out the kinks with Universities. I only know what's gone on in CA, not elsewhere.

What about others moving up in the fire organization and those in other regions? Are other region's fire managers screwed? Can we expect other regions' programs to go belly-up in 18 months?

Good luck on the OPM time frame, university folks are almost into finals and will be taking semester break soon.

Mellie

What a truly eloquent post.

With respect,

contractor

Helicopter marshaling pop quiz, Montana style:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ96LT-NabE

HAW HAW HAW HAW! Ab.

I'm sure a new day will dawn brighter tomorrow, but right now my optimism is at a career low. The redeeming factor throughout all the upper-level management failures over the years for me has always been the enthusiasm and tenacity of the quality folks in the ranks. Right now, I'm not sure I can hold my head high enough to meet their eyes.

Old Boot

SoCal CalFire

www.heraldonline.com/opinions/story/206790.html

Firefighters as spies
By Staff Reports · heraldonline.com FTP
Updated 11/29/07 - 12:36 AM

Firefighters have always been admired icons of public service, a reputation greatly enhanced by the performance of New York City firefighters on 9-11. Now, however, the Department of Homeland Security may try to turn big-city firefighters into unwelcome snoops.

Unlike police, firefighters and emergency medical personnel don't need warrants to enter someone's home. Homeland Security officials believe firefighters would be useful in spotting behavior that could indicate terrorist activity or planning.

As part of a program started a year ago, Homeland Security gave secret clearances to nine New York fire chiefs. Under the program, firefighters would be asked to look for signs of terrorist activity when they respond to emergency calls or inspect buildings. If the program is successful, the government hopes to expand it to other major metropolitan areas.

In defending the program, Homeland Security officials offer a simplistic cartoon scenario: Firefighters stumble across a room full of rocket-propelled grenades during a routine inspection.

"It's a no-brainer," said Jack Tomarchio, a senior official in Homeland Security's intelligence division. He thinks the police, the fire department and the intelligence community ought to know about that, and who could disagree?

But the notion of requiring firefighters, as part of their jobs, to spy on and report the daily comings and goings of American citizens is more troubling. Who would determine the limits of what gets reported to authorities? (click the link for the rest; this is an opinion article)

www.justculture.org/newsletters.aspx?id=8#2

An Examination of Red Rules in a Just Culture

Mellie

Mcleod

Another GOOD GRIEF! Let's hear it for a firefighter series. Anything else doesn't make sense! I hope some folks are writing in to Hank's Blog. Everyone trained here knows how to focus on "the what not the who". Please do so. Ab.

Thanks for that Fyr Etr. Ab.

Enclosed is a summary for each Region and Station of their on-board employment profiles including the results of the unit’s hiring during FY 2007. Results for FY 2007 and historical results from FY2003 through FY2006 have been posted to the HCM website: http://fsweb.hcm.fs.fed.us/workforce_planning/strategies_for_improving.php (FS intranet)

External Hires provide an opportunity to improve the skills and diversity of our workforce to better serve an increasingly diverse American public. In addition, Student Hires have proven to be one of the most effective tools toward this end by providing an excellent vehicle to add younger employees and the new ideas that they bring to our workforce.

Service-wide, we added over 2,100 new employees to our workforce in FY 2007. This is an increase of 24.5% from the number of external employees hired last year. This demonstrates that the Forest Service continues to hire from external sources at a significant rate. Over the past five years, we have hired an average of 1,879 employees per year from external sources. Agency-wide, we have made good use of the Student Career Experience Program (SCEP) with 32% of all external hires being SCEPs. Our external entry-level hiring also increased from 12% in FY 2006 to 20% in FY 2007. There is much variation unit to unit so I encourage you to also look at your own unit’s statistics and make the appropriate comparisons.

I encourage you to continue to set hiring goals for your unit, such as the number of entry level and SCEP appointments, and develop local strategies to meet these goals. There is no more important responsibility for the leadership of this agency than to ensure that we plan for and build a workforce that can successfully carry out the Forest Service mission, now and into the future.

/s/ John Y. Kusano (for):
KATHLEEN D. BURGERS
Director of Human Capital Management

Enclosures: (1) wfp-measures-fy07.xls

cc: Charles Barclay
John Y Kusano

You don't say. Good grief. The Forest Service is worried about hiring diversity but not about retaining experienced diversity. If you could see what I've seen from entering data from the survey, you'd be amazed how many emails came in from FF2s and managers with Hispanic names who are going to CalFire if they get an offer. I won't be able to track that informally now that the survey is auto-posted. Ethnicity and gender weren't the focus of our survey; firefighters are firefighters. But the current exodus is likely to take lots of Forest Service trained, skilled and very professional diversity to CalFire. Ab.

SENATE FIELD HEARINGS IN SAN DIEGO

FWFSA tells Senator Feinstein " The Forest Service fire program, especially in California is imploding and unless you and Congress listen to your federal wildland firefighters, understand the issues and take action, there will no longer be a federal wildland fire program in California and your constituents will pay 3-5 times as much as they do now to protect our Nation's natural resources in California."

These were the words of FWFSA Business Manager, accompanied by Sec.-Treasurer Jim Huston and BLM member Clay Howe to Senator Feinstein as they met after the Senate Interior Appropriations Subcommittee -- of which Senator Feinstein is Chair -- held field hearings in San Diego to discuss the recent fire siege.

Sadly despite repeated efforts, no firefighters, whether they were federal, Cal Fire or municipal, were included on any of the three witness panels which included an array of folks from Cal-Fire to OES to the Red Cross and the US Geological Survey, the State Insurance Commissioner and the Farm Bureau. Additionally, the standard compliment of local elected officials from San Diego and as far away as Orange County and San Bernardino provided oral testimony.

The clear focus was on San Diego City. Much was said about the lack of fire stations and personnel, despite the staggering growth in the area. It is a rather popular notion that San Diegans, as affluent as many are, simply aren't willing to pay for such services, having shot down several ballot measures in years to fund additional fire resources.

Cal-Fire's Ruben Grijalva and OES' Chief Zagaris testified. Sadly, the only "federal" voice was Mark Rey who at least was consistent... consistently misleading stating on the record that federal resources were "pre-positioned" prior to the first fire siege. We believe this to be, at best, inaccurate. As we understand it, the word from the R5 RO prior to the first siege was that there was no funding for pre-positioning. (It should be noted that "pre-positioning" was what the Forest Service said it was going to do all season long to ensure proper preparedness.)

We certainly are aware of the federal pre-positioning over the last couple of weeks along with the 24 hr staffing but we are hard pressed to identify what was pre-positioned prior to Oct 20th, acknowledging the fact that state & local resources were pre-positioned at that time.

Mr. Rey did get hit with a number of questions about the always-promised, never-delivered, Forest Service aviation plan. Further, there were complaints/concerns raised by local & state agencies about the protracted process of approval for a federal response.

Ultimately, at the heart of this hearing was money. The Committee touted its approval to expend hundreds of millions of dollars to the Forest Service for additional suppression costs as well as the obviously popular FEMA administered fire assistance grants.

Needless to say, State & local fire agency representatives as well as state & local government representatives who obviously stand to benefit, paid homage to Senator Feinstein for her recent legislative proposals to, among other things, increase FMAG reimbursements in some cases from 75% to 90%.

It is fascinating how most of the time folks want less involvement/intrusion by the federal government... except when they money jar is wide open.

Much of the discussion centered around the urban fire fight with little commentary about the wildland effort.

One congressman who attended called the proceedings "a dog & pony show" and asked the FWFSA to make sure he got "the real scoop."

Perhaps the most poignant witness was former San Diego Fire Chief Jeff Bowman who suggested that the hearing was unnecessary because all of the solutions were developed by the Blue Ribbon Commission after the 2003 siege, yet virtually no effort had been made to complete work on the recommendations. He quit as fire chief out of frustration.

Mr. Bowman, who was likely only slightly less candid than the FWFSA's Judd would have been had he been afforded an opportunity to testify, met with Judd after the hearing and they agreed to stay in touch and work together.

The bottom line for federal firefighters was that Sen. Feinstein directed her Regional Director James Peterson to work directly with the FWFSA to get the Senator up to speed on the issue and start looking at real solutions.

For further information, please feel free to contact the FWFSA at www.fwfsa.org or by phone at 208-775-4577.

About all i can help out with this question, Plumas NF, 3 dozers, TahoeNF 0 dozers, 1 contract
dozer usually during fire season "Sierraville" one contract water tender from Sierraville also.

Hope this helps out a little.

mike

Haw haw. MOC, here's some more information several firefighters sent in: Standard Firefighting Organization, 2005 (254K doc file). Thanks, guys/gals. Ab.

Readers? Ab.

As of this morning the Executive Leadership Team has entered the world of
"blogging." I want to thank the staff in the Office of Communications and
Information Resource Management for their work in establishing the
structure for blogging on the Forest Service intranet.

When we discussed this yesterday among the ELT, we admittedly were unsure
how unleashing a "leadership blog" might work. Much of our being unsure is
due to the fact that we really don't know what is involved in being a "good
blogger." But what we do know is that we want to continually seek ways of
staying in touch with Forest Service employees and providing a good venue
for employees to visibly and easily dialog with each other on major topics.

So, through the link below (and the use of your e-authentication password),
we invite you to get involved in helping leadership become familiar with
blogging. This first blog simply provides the opportunity for employees to
suggest how it might be used.

We have intentionally not made a big communication event out of kicking off
this blog. We would simply like you to pass this link on and invite
employees to participate. After a couple of weeks the ELT will assess how
it has worked and "go from there."

Thanks for giving this blog a look. Don't hesitate to post your comments
and thoughts.

http://apps.fs.usda.gov/roller/

Hank Kashdan
Deputy Chief, Business Operations

Not sure how to create a "fictitious name" but "Smokeygal" would be fun.
Anyways since Hank has opened the door for BLOGS...thought maybe could use
this as another opportunity for the Fire Pay and Recruitment Issues.

Smokeygal

I think everyone that wants to go over there and blog should do it. Good move for them, one that OA advocated 13 years ago. Ab.

hotshot7387

Volusia Co. Firefighter Killed in Training Accident

VOLUSIA COUNTY, Fla. A 30 year old rookie Volusia County firefighter was killed Tuesday morning during routine training.

John Curry was pronounced dead at 11:05 a.m. Curry was a member of Volusia County's Wildland Fire Team which was practicing power and chain saw use at the Volusia County Fire Training Center when witnesses said a pine tree fell on Curry.

"This is a tragic loss for all of us," said Frank Bruno, Volusia County Chair. "Our hearts are heavy and we extend our deepest sympathy to his friends and family."

The Firewalker Wildland Team was created in March 1995. Members, known as Firewalkers, consist of volunteer and career personnel. There are 38 team members and they have been conducting ongoing training, although only a portion of them were at the training Tuesday morning. (to read the rest, click the link above)

Condolences. Ab.

Welcome and thank you for taking the time to complete the Wildlandfire.com survey regarding the decision facing many federal agency employees on whether to remain with a federal agency or to apply for a position with other wildland fire suppression employers. Our objective is to gather information and present it in a clear and logical manner in the hope that it may be used in a productive manner.

Please complete each question and submit just one survey per person. To help avoid duplicate inputs we will log computer ip addresses, though they will NOT be made public. If you find any question too personal, feel free to skip it and go to the next question. The results of this survey will be announced on They Said It and the Hotlist when concluded. Thanks, OA

My thanks to Original Ab for creating this self-administered, online survey. It includes more options for you to share your views than I was recording in the original database and the auto-entry will reduce our data entry workload substantially.

If you already emailed your survey response to Ab (in the last 4 days) but would like to fill out a complete survey, you may; add your email addy or some other identifier in the comments section at the bottom so I can easily find and exclude your original emailed entry.

Readers, tell your friends and colleagues. Email them the link. Help us get the word out. The more complete data we have, the better to evaluate the situation. We haven't decided on timeframe, perhaps 2 weeks, so please respond as soon as possible. I know many people are taking time off.

Results will be reported here and to the Hotlist in aggregated form only. Your individual responses and identities will remain confidential. Ab.

1. The Forest Fire Staffs are experts in the protection of their forests, and known critical issues such as staffing and preparedness in their areas, and
2. The R-5 Intel Shop has their thumb on the pulse of what is happening in the weather and preparedness world, and
3. Conflicting goals of meeting fuels targets in some areas are affecting the protection of other areas, and
4. Decisions based on a flawed budget request process continues to set up local units to fail .

Many folks on the call would have responded much differently (as I would have), but all of you (FFMOs and RO SoOps Staff) showed a calm demeanor and only took it as another challenge that further "leading up" was needed to answer a really stupid question asked by someone above.

Anyone on the conference call knows what I am talking about. Folks can only "lead up" for so long before they bail a sinking ship without a qualified Captain leading the crew.

Rogue Rivers

P.S. - I hear that the SoCal forests just got lots of earmarks (short-term) with added fuels targets that must be met before the end of the fiscal year. One SoCal forest reports their fuels target is anticipated to jump to 18,000 acres of treated fuels with only ten months to complete it. A question of quantity to meet agency false targets vs. quality to meet the true funding intent of Congress?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> From: Predictive Services Newsletter, November 26, 2007

With the recent wildfires that occurred during October and November, the question now arises- When will fire season be over? Obviously our fire season should come to an end once significant rains begin to occur, but when will that happen? The latest long range outlooks suggest that southern and central California are in store for another drier than normal winter, although it probably won't be as dry as last year. Nevertheless the prospects for significant winter rains are looking grim.

Sea surface temperatures have been trending towards below normal in the equatorial Pacific region since September, and now current conditions suggest that a moderate cold event (La Nina) is in place. La Nina events tend to result in drier than normal winters in the southwest U.S.-but not always. In any case, this has been the main factor driving the long range seasonal outlooks which project below normal precipitation not only for southern California this winter, but also for most of the southern U.S. (see chart on the left). The current La Nina event is projected to last into early 2008 before moderating somewhat. Regardless, we have not gotten off to a good start precipitation wise as the Riverside area is already an inch below normal for the new rain year.

Current models continue to show a persistent amplified ridge over the eastern Pacific which, if this feature continues, will prevent any major storms from moving into southern California. Although this pattern does not preclude the area from receiving any precipitation, it simply prevents major troughiness from developing over the West Coast which would lead to periods of significant rainfall.

Unless this pattern changes, not much rain can be expected through the end of the year. So is fire season over? Not completely. While cooler temperatures and less daylight will mitigate fire activity and large fire occurrence to some degree, fuels remain very dry. And unless significant precipitation occurs over an extended period of time, there will continue to be the potential for the fire season to last in some modified form at least through the end of the year, if not longer.

Old photo of SP X2181, I think near Truckee 1940/50s.

Lots of water and might have put out more fire than it started.

Old LPF

Great old photo. The original is a pig of a tif file! Ab.

While not really a new concept, railway fire suppression vehicles are indeed changing for the better. Southern Pacific, which was bought by Union Pacific several years ago, had a complete fire fighting train stationed at Roseville and in Reno to fight tunnel fires in the Sierra snow-sheds. Several eastern railroads also had these unit trains.

www.wildlandfire.com/pics/equip11/firetrain.jpg
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/equip11/watercar1.jpg
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/equip11/watercar2.jpg
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/equip11/watercar3.jpg

Tom

R5 FS Firefighters,

Please hold off on sending in any more survey emails. OA is creating a self-administered online survey that takes only moments to fill in. We'll import the info you've already provided into the online survey database.

That survey should be up tomorrow early. We're working out the last bugs.

Please! No more emails! Wait until tomorrow.

The Abs.

Just an fyi.

On a recent conference call, we were asked when will fire season be over.
Here is just one perspective.

Michael J. Dietrich
Chief, Fire and Aviation Management
San Bernardino National Forest

Predictive Services Fire Weather Outlook Nov. 26, 2007 (700K pdf file)

Preliminary Summary Report (Blue Sheet) CA-LAC-255190 Firefighter Burn Injury (158 K pdf file)

Here are a couple of photos with some flames. This is Arizona Strike Team #1 (Alpha) at the Rice Fire, Fallbrook, CA in October 2007. Five Type 1 engines made up of Central Arizona Response Team members Apache Junction, Chandler, Guadalupe, Mesa and Tempe Fire Departments. These pictures are of a burnout operation we performed near a few structures we were protecting.

AZfirefighter

Thanks, I put them on the Handcrews 22 photo page. Ab.

wilnd

Huge water balloons to help fight wildfires
http://news.rgj.com
Raquel Maria Dillon
For the AP
Posted: 11/27/2007

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. (AP) -- William Cleary believes aerial firefighting could become child's play.

Five years ago, his son drenched him with a water balloon -- and got him to thinking.

"He was three stories up and I was walking, and he still managed hit me square in the head," said Cleary, a Boeing engineer. "I thought, why can't we be this accurate with water on fires?"

So he started working on a system to use giant water balloons to put out wildfires.

The NWCG approved the Skills Crosswalk at the meeting in October, 2007.
USFA is currently developing a press release/program notice to announce the
initiative. At a minimum the announcement will be posted on the USFA web
site soon. The repackaging of the training as indicated in the Skills
Crosswalk is under development.

FEMA Skills Crosswalk (990 K pdf file)

PLEASE Stay safe,
Keith, Bullard VFD (TX)

It is with deep regret that we advise you that a Firefighter with the Volusia County Fire-Rescue has been killed in the Line of Duty during training this morning. Initial reports are that companies were doing brush fire operations training when a tree fell, killing the Firefighter. The accident happened this morning at Volusia's Fire training facility located on near Daytona Beach FL. Volusia County fire investigators say the firefighters are part of a "fire walker" team, and were using power saws to cut down trees when the tragic event occurred. Additional details will follow. As always, our sincere sympathy and condolences to all effected-especially those directly involved from VCFR-and the Firefighters family.
Take Care-BE CAREFUL.
BillyG

We need info from all Forest Service firefighters, temp, seasonal or permanent

1. who have applied for the next CalFire Captain's hiring round. Please say if you have have received interview dates from them or not.
2. those who recently applied for Engineer positions.
3. anyone who is applying for or has has applied for CalFire Firefighter II.
4. those who have or are applying for a Firefighter I seasonal position.

Please include the following information:

• Grade (GS rating)
• Forest
• Module (examples: engine, hotshot, handcrew)
• position you applied for with CalFire (captain, engineer, FFT2, FFT1); if you're applying for positions as low as you need to go to get your foot in the door.
• any comments you feel like sharing (are you leaving reluctantly or happily, why you're leaving, what would make you stay, issues, priorities, etc).

Please tell your peers to email Ab or ask your peers and gather the info above from

• your module,
• your ranger district
• your forest.

I am working to make sure there are no overlapping entries and no database "rectangles" left blank. Complete data that records everyone who is applying would be best. Individuals will remain anonymous. Ab.

SK

Normbc9

Did you know that during Mr. Pena’s last year as FS on the Plumas,
he was summoned to DC to work on a special project for Mark Rey?
Shortly after returning to the Plumas he gets promoted to the Deputy RF
position for R5. Coincidence? I hardly think so. In my opinion he is
nothing more than a puppet for Mark Rey and the Administration.

Stoneboat

It sounds like the R5 Fire Hire timeline for the next round of hiring is out
and being circulated - with February 3rd as the last date to submit your
AVUE application. Referral lists will be created on February 4th.

Thanks,

Bethany E. Loomis-Hannah
www.LoomisHannah.com

Can you post this in your pics site, this is an UNUSUAL Firefighting Rig. It was built by BNSF (Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad) up in Spokane Washington.

it carries:

• 3,250 Gallon water tanks
• 500 Gallon Foam Tank
• Honda Pumps (1 on each end)
• Honda Generator hooked up to bright halogen lights for night work or smoky conditions
• movable water cannons mounted on a platform (1 on each end)

BNSF worked with USFS and Washington Dept of Natural Resources to make sure all fittings and hoses were compatible. They can haul it to the fire by train then park it and let fire personnel staff it.

Per BNSF they build this due to several fires started by their trains each year and wildfires threatening their railroad assets.

They are considering pulling this along during rail grinding ops each year when a lot of their fires start.

Mike

Different, interesting. I put it on Equipment 11 photo page. Ab.

First,
San Bernardino NF FAM = Class Act !
Proof again that the iiaa model works.

Secondly,
Anyone have information that during the Dec 10th meeting the group will complete
an assessment of turning over protection responsibility of NF WUI to State and
Local Gov?

Proof again the iiaa model works and this would not be a cost effective/productive
decision. If anyone knows about this and as some talking points, now is the time to
pull them out.

Finally,
If the Forest Service starts losing the Lobotomy's of this organization, you can just go
ahead and put a fork in us, because we're done!

ms

Check the acronyms list (link in center above) if you want to know what IIAA is. ms, I agree with you. Ab.

Lobotomy, good points. Ab.

For those who want some FEMA questions answered, you can swing 'em my way. I work for FEMA as a Community Relations Field Specialist (and was on the SoCal fires)...but my real background is wildland fire, and I am a PIO with national incident command teams.

-To answer the below question regarding rehab work down in Southern CA; please look up www.inciweb.org and refer to the SOCAL BAER teams listing. Click on the listing and look for the contact number. FEMA contributes financial assistance through the state via public assistance funding, but the SoCal BAER folks are the ones running the ground show.

Cheers,
Chelsea

Will do. Ab.

FYI,

Forest Fire Management would like to thank all of the Forest, BLM, and
HIA for the support resources assigned to the San Bernardino National
Forest during the recent wind events in Southern California. The Forest
had 44 initial attack fires, 4 structure fires with potential threat to the
Forest, and 2 vehicle fires into the vegetation that we were able to
utilize the additional resources to prevent these fires from becoming an
extended attack fire or a fire that required an Incident Management Team.

These additional resources have been released back to their respective home
units with the exception of the following resources still assigned to the
Slide and Grass Fires. Assigned Resources: S/T 3646C (MDF E-64, MNF E-42,
MNF E-34, TNF E-33, TNF E-42), Patrols SRF P-31 & TNF P-72. Released
resources have coordinated with our Expanded Dispatch, North Ops & South
Ops and their respective home units will be notified of ETA's home.

Rocky W. Opliger
Deputy Chief
Fire & Aviation Management
San Bernardino National Forest

Get your guys out there for some post fire PT? Ab.

The NWCG Leadership committee is seeking nominations for the Paul Gleason
Lead by Example Award. The award is open to any wildland firefighter or
group of firefighters and is presented in three categories: Mentoring and
Teamwork, Motivation and Vision, and Initiative and Innovation. For
additional information about the award click on the link:
www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/documents/gleason_award_info.html.

Nominations can be sent electronically from the above link or hard copy
applications can be printed and mailed. The deadline for applications is
December 31st.

Any questions can be directed to John Wood at 530.226.2723

Thanks, Bethany I'll correct that in my post. I'm not expert or even knowledgeable in CalFire hiring, although I'm beginning to know more than I ever thought I would. Ab.

1. Pressure upon Angles Forest Supervisor resulting in the abrupt retirement of Don Feser.
2. Not allowing The Monterey Crew to attend the Funeral for a fellow firefighter this past fall.
3. Denying the FWFSA representation at the upcoming retention meeting in December.

Too bad we cannot apply the federal Three Strikes rule, now codified at 18 U.S.C. § 3559(c), the defendant receives mandatory life imprisonment; for acts to undermine the morale, recruitment, and retention of US Forest Service Firefighters in Region 5.

Does Mr. Pena not realize the following?

• The Land Management agencies combined have the largest fire department in the Nation with Region 5 having more firefighters than all of the rest of the nation combined.
• The more Pena keeps putting down the firefighters (opps Forestry Technicians), the larger the fallout will be when the uprising happens. With Pena in the middle of the storm.
• The mass exodus is upon us. A meeting during Use-Or-Loose Season, after the interviews have begun; is like putting a band-aid on a saw cut to the leg without chaps on.
• The FWFSA has such a vast representation of members that Pena may deny official access to the meeting, but the FWFSA will still be present.

I might not be the first person to post this information here on they said, but the more posts about this topic, the greater likelihood that staffers and congressional aids will see it a huge issue amongst Federal Firefighters.

Thanks Abs for hosting this site.

SRJS, Proud FWFSA Member

You're the first that has pulled all that info together.
Regarding hosting, you're welcome, buy a calendar or two and make us happy. It's easy! Haw Haw! Ab.

GA and FS Fire readers,

Sure, we can widen this tally. Why not... It would be good to have real numbers across the board. You will remain anonymous.

Bottom line... Tell your friends and colleagues to email Ab. We need the info from

1. all FS firefighters who have applied for the next CalFire Captain's hiring round and have received interview dates from them and
2. those who recently applied for Engineer positions. (Supplemental packets come out is January.)

In addition, I'll start another list to include seasonals/temps, anyone who is applying for or has has applied for CalFire Firefighter II and/or are also willing to accept a Firefighter I seasonal position.

CalFire applicants below the Engineer position, please email Ab your

• GS rating,
• Forest,
• Module (examples: engine, hotshot, handcrew),
• position you applied for with CalFire (captain, engineer, FFT2, FFT1 temp), and
• any comments you feel like sharing (why you're leaving, what would make you stay, issues, priorities, etc).

Seasonal or Temp hires don't count in OPM's calculations for retention -- although you make up more than 40% of fed firefighter staffing and you are  INTEGRAL  TO  THE  FIREFIGHTING  EFFORT.

I think OPM requires something like 16% attrition before they say there's a retention problem and move to address the issue. Go figure.

In 2005 or 2006 there were 4 or 4.5% losses in R5 because only permanent firefighters were included, while the temps/seasonals were excluded from the equation. I don't know what the numbers and percents are today, probably still well under OPM's magic % number. Seems like there is a problem with the OPM calculating system that should be addressed if the outcome is that we won't have firefighters to do the job during fire emergencies next season. (This could be a job for Congress.)

I am told CalFire has around 650 open positions as of 10/21. No doubt 80-85% of new hires will come from within their own ranks. However, they lack enough applicants that can step up into middle management positions and will be casting a wide net to fill them.

Congress needs to be educated and/or we need to figure out what will be left after so many of you decide ... "Should I Stay or Should I Go".

Ab.

PS. I'm hearing that all supplemental packets for Engineer/ FF II won't come out until January.

I agree that you should go to a higher level and continue to try and get in that meeting. Remember it was Feinstein and company who gave R-5 and the Forest Supv on the ANF 30 days to address in writing the attrition/pay problem within the Forest Service. This meeting was probably an outcome of the reply back to Feinstein. Has anyone seen the reply?

Secondly, I would recommend a FOIA of all written and electronic communications between R-5 RO/WO and any R-5 NFs to the Senator or her committee that relates to Firefighter/Forestry Tech pay/retention issues. This is an appropriate request under FOIA laws.

Lastly, if NFFE wants you (Casey) to help us/them, they will invite you as a representative/adviser for NFFE. If management continues to not allow you to attend, NFFE can and should file an unfair labor practice. Management cannot tell NFFE who NFFE wants at the meeting as a representative of NFFE. NFFE needs to hold firm.

Everyone needs to read the Pena "approved and updated" briefing paper on retention. I haven't seen it posted in here yet, however it needs to be seen by Firefighters and those representing employees at the Dec 10th meeting.

Letterman…….

I probably got it when I was enjoying the holiday. I get the message: Back to Work! I'll go look...

Here are two from the doc files:

Retention Briefing Paper from 9/26 (103 K doc file)
Retention Revised Briefing Paper from 11/13 (116 K doc file)

Ab.

Ab,

I think it might be beneficial to tally those who are applying for Firefighter II and
are also willing to accept a firefighter I seasonal position, as well. Showing that
some are willing to accept lower grade positions just to get the foot in the door
of Cal Fire and out of the Fed System may provide some good evidence of
retention problems.

For Engineer and Firefighter II there are no interviews, just supplemental packets.

GA

Ab,

You asked about the fire captain candidates being offered a job during the interview. That doesn't happen. The successful candidates will be place on a list by the ranking in their scores. The first ranks will be for CALFIRE folks only (theirs is a promotional examination) followed by the open list candidates. When all of CALFIRE candidates on the list have been offered jobs, the open list (non-CALFIRE) candidates will be offered jobs.

For the past several exams there have been far more openings than CALFIRE candidates to accept positions. This exam should be the same. The list probably will not be released until Spring, so hiring normally doesn't begin until March or April at the earliest, May or June has been when it was done in the past, which throws everyone behind the curve to staff crews and engines, to say nothing of what it does to the agencies that are loosing their employees right at the beginning of fire season.

SP

CalFire won't be offering jobs to people at the oral interviews. They will
still have to rank all the applicants then develop the "open list". Offers have
to be made to CalFire departmental promotions first, then to the open list
candidates.

SK

Those of you that have responded, please contact others on your Modules, Ranger Districts, and Forests that you think might have applied and encourage them to email Ab. abercrombie@wildlandfire.com

From what you've said, interviews are as early as Dec 5. Do they make an offer in the interview? Do you have to accept or decline on the spot?

Ab.

To reiterate, this is a poll of

1. all FS firefighters who have applied for the next CalFire Captain's hiring round and have received interview dates from them and
2. those who recently applied for Engineer positions and whether or not you have received a supplemental packet.

Please send your GS rating, Forest, position, and whether you have an interview date or have recently applied with no interview date yet. No names will be included, just your GS rating and forest.

Keep them coming. I will only enter the data on the spreadsheet without posting comments to theysaid unless you instruct me otherwise.

Ab.

Normbc9

Just a little interesting information I have been privy to: LA County refused any
Cal Fire/OES additional resources for this wind event. Said thanks but no thanks,
we have it covered. This is secondhand info but it comes from a very high source
in Cal Fire so I think it is valid.

Great job by everyone at the Malibu Fire. Saw lots of local departments, OES,
and Cal Fire units and crews there.

I think it was a good move to staff up the South State for this event even though
it was not a intense as they first thought. It does not take very many Malibu homes
lost to make up the the entire cost of the mobilization. By the way the local radio
stated that the mobile homes in the park at Malibu sell for $1 mil. Only in SoCal.

signed,
Eng. 83 Capt.

The hotlist (CA-LAC-Corral) has been reporting on this since o'dark30. Sorry I didn't put a note up here. My bad... Ab.

I would like to do a poll or survey of those who received interview dates with Cal Fire. No names to be posted just your GS rating and forest. This may also help fire managers on each forest to know what to expect so that they can express their concerns to the region as well. Maybe even do a poll for those who recently applied for the Engineer positions. This may also help Casey with FWFSA by providing some good data and maybe be a voice at this retention meeting.

Sign Me,

Should I Stay or Should I Go!!

CLASH, eh?

Send an email to abercrombie@wildlandfire.com. I will keep track of the information on a spread sheet and keep the sources anonymous. If firefighters on ranger districts want to ask around to obtain the information and send it in, I'd be willing to record that as well or use it to double check the info. It would be good to have complete information. Ab.

Lobotomy,

Me thinks you made a pun, and a good one at that. Your statement about the press
being a large air force could have a hidden meaning not relative to aviation,
ie, a lot of hot air...

Tongue firmly in cheek.
Best wishes,

contractor

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/notes-ara-budget-healthcare.pdf

What concerns me is the state legislature keeps authorizing the expenditure of
more funds. Where does that money come from?

Norm

Hi to all:

In the spirit of the Holiday I pondered whether to post this today or whether to wait a few days. Ultimately my belief that our wildland firefighters need to know what is going on and the facts on any given issue led me to send this in today.

The R5 RO has refused to include the FWFSA in the "meetings" set for the week of December 10th to discuss region wide retention issues. While disappointing, the response is not necessarily surprising given the issues we have raised recently. Included in this post is a 3 page letter I sent to Mr. Jim Pena seeking our participation and his 3 sentence response.

I truly believe that if the RO & WO would come out collectively and say they support a wildland firefighter classification series, it would send a positive signal to our firefighters that the Agency supports them. Granted classification doesn't bring with it any help in dealing with the cost of living in Southern California and elsewhere but I'd like to think the recognition alone would give enough hope to those pondering a transfer to a non-federal agency that positive change is coming.

I am confident that the representatives from NFFE and the FMOs attending these meetings will candidly express the needs and concerns of the Region's firefighters from all grades and positions.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Judd,

The Regional Foerster has requested that a team develop recruitment and retention options for consideration for implementation prior to the next round of fire hiring. The team will include NFFE representation. I know that you and your organization are interested in this meeting. However, NFFE will be representing barginning unit employees at the meeting. Jim

Jim Pena
Deputy Regional Forester
PSW Region

www.signonsandiego.com

An effective effort in fighting fires

By Ruben Grijalva
November 23, 2007

Saving lives is always the first priority of firefighters in responding to wildfires. During the recent fires, effective coordination between federal, state and local emergency authorities saved lives through the safe evacuation of hundreds of thousands of people. At the same time, no emergency responder lives were lost in the extremely dangerous conditions.

In Southern California, the recent actions taken by all emergency responders resulted in dramatic improvements since the 2003 fires. This year, in addition to the most publicized fires, another 251 fires were put out and held without damage due to aggressive tactics during the Santa Ana winds event.

Fires are fought and won on the ground. Air coverage is an important tool, but, by continuing to solely focus on that aspect, it diminishes the role of the 15,000 firefighters and their heroic efforts. More than 130 firefighters were injured, including four who were hospitalized in the intensive care unit with major burns while saving lives and protecting structures during extreme fire conditions.

When the recent fires hit, every aircraft that could safely be flown was launched. Cal Fire aircraft alone flew more than 800 hours and dropped 1.15 million gallons of retardant. The U.S. Forest Service and its contractors also flew as safety permitted.

(click the link to read the rest)

Ab.

Ab,

A little story behind the East Zone Complex Photo story. The photo is a poster child for W/U Interface challenges. I’m certainly going to use it in my next S-215 class. The management team was FDNY being supported by a NIMO team. The small community of Secesh is roughly 50 miles northeast of McCall, Idaho and has certain “political sensitivities.”

The East Zone Complex had made several runs at Secesh over the preceding weeks. There were Level Three evacuations in place with manned road blocks, but residents, guests, relatives, dogs, cats, chickens, pigs, whatever, were being allowed into Secesh for the holiday weekend. On Labor Day, Monday, Sept 3, 2007 the fire took another hard run at Secesh while it was full of residents, relatives and holiday revelers. It was not a good day for firefighters as they had to contend not only with extreme fire behavior, but a town full of well lubricated people who all wanted to be a part of the action.

By the Grace of God, no one was killed. The Division traffic to ICP coming through the fire radios, though, was almost radioactive. The repeaters most likely had smoke coming from them.

So there.

Snake River Sparky

Thanks to Anthony Rhead for the spectacular photo of the blowup on the East Zone Complex, ID. I've put it on our Home page and on the wallpaper page. It's a very strong contender for next year's (2009) calendar. (Thanks also to those who contributed to the 2008 calendar. What a nice one! Get 'em while they're hot!) Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

East Zone Complex, ID:  Blowup of Payette National Forest’s East Zone Complex fire taken on September 3, 2007 as the fire approached the community of Secesh. Photo compliments of Anthony Rhead. (ew1007)

From the East Tex Tribe

Aaron, Brenda, Devon, Chelsea,
Kimberly, Remington & Zachariah

^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--THANKSGIVING --..--HAPPY--..--TURKEY!

v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'^V^'

We give thanks for all of YOU and today we're thankful for our turkeys, too.
Be safe. Carry on! Our best to those doing duty on the line...
The Abs at wildlandfire.com

I'd like to thank all our fire managers who work hard for us including Ed
Hollenshead and others in the Regional Office.

It's a wonder these days that that anyone is willing to step up and try to
get the job done in light of OMB, OPM, the justice system, cost of living,
budget, politics, etc. I have no doubt fire managers are doing the best they
can, given their own personal style, their experience and background,
the politics they're subject to, the constraints on them from their bosses
and the bureaucracy and the limited time they have to get everything done.

I just want to say THANKS TO ALL!

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone!

Mellie

KS

When I worked on the ANF almost 20 years ago, Tom and later Greg, were way
to ahead of their time. I once saw Tom at a gas station in Palmdale racing back to
the ANF from an assignment on the SNF or SQF because of the activity on the
home front. He still took a few minutes to talk to the GS-3 grunts and let us know
what was going on. I hope they can bring about positive changes with the visions
they had back than.

Former Green Soldier.

ms, It came round robin with a note to get it as widely distributed as possible. I copied and pasted your reply directly to Tom in case he's already at home thawing turkey. Ab.

Happy Thanksgiving Vicki. Thanks for all you, Melissa, Burk and Candace do. Community is a great thing. Carry on! Ab.

Gizmo:

I think you have it backwards. Master Mutual Aid involves the sending unit
covering costs. Federal agencies are not signatory to the Statewide Master
Mutual Aid Agreement.

CFAA involves reimbursement by hosting agency for costs after 12 hours
of commitment, including travel. However, if an incident goes more than 12
hours, ALL hours are then reimbursed. So if you go help Cal Fire for 6
hours, it is free. But if it goes 14 hours, all 14 are paid for by Cal Fire.

The requests for all this move up were generated by Cal Fire. In the ROSS
order, it says re-imbursement is covered.

OES engines are owned by the State of California. All expenses are covered
by the State. The local agency that hosts an OES engine doesn't bear any of
these costs.

Bluezebra

Despite the report's numerous references to shortages of equipment and personnel due to the widespread deployment, fire agency representatives said this week that there were always enough firefighting resources available to enlist in the fight.

Jason Kirchner, a spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service, said almost every order made for firefighting resources was filled without any time lags. The priority in the early days of the Slide Fire was structure protection and not containment, he said. I've heard from a reliable source that the Slide Fire only had twelve fire engines protecting hundreds of homes AND doing perimeter control for nearly the first 16 hours. While the resources were filled, they were unfortunately coming from Imperial County, eastern Arizona, and the SF Bay area.

noname

The shortages are readily documented in the 209s for those Lake Arrowhead area fires. I don't have them now, but someone sent them in at the time. Ab.

Hello AB would like inform you of some other that have make it to leadership
roles for the BLM in SE Idaho . Joel Gosswiller was an AK jumper for 3 or 4
years and is now is an AFMO for Pocatello BLM. Also Dan Zajanc was a
Squad Boss for Sawtooth IHC and Snake River IHC . Dan is currently an Asst.
Fire Operation Specialist. ( FOS) for the Pocatello BLM> Thanks .

B

Thanks, I added that info. Ab.

S

Thanks, I added that. Ab.

As I reflect on your labor, I wanted to encourage you to think back to a whole different kind of sacrifice that led to another day of giving thanks. It was 144 years ago and surfaced during the horrific Civil War. Towards the end of this bloody conflagration in November of 1863, Abraham Lincoln still found reasons to give thanks and remind us of those less fortunate in his Proclamation of Thanksgiving.

I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving ….. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also….commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

I am also thankful every day that in 2007 we have not had to mourn the loss of any Forest Service firefighters who lost their lives on the fireline. Be careful, be smart and Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

Tom Harbour

When I was associated with NA S&PF Fire, I served as the FS Fire Compact Liaison for Eastern Canada. The States activate their Fire Compacts and Agreements as needed. They can cross the border going both ways. Check with the Northeastern Area S&PF (Newtown Square) and Eastern Region (Fort Snelling) about agreement between the NFS and State Fire Compacts (Northeast Forest Fire Compact and Great Lakes Forest Fire Compact). I am quite sure there are agreements still in place with Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. The Northeast Forest Fire Compact should be having a meeting very soon, so you don't want to miss out on the latest information.

Rated R

Ab,

The airspace over an incident is fast moving, dynamic and terribly unforgiving of a mistake…….. which can result in the death of a pilot or others on the ground.

There are specific airspace regulations/procedures in the aerial firefighting environment that provide for aircraft separation and certain communication and performance requirements for safety. It is critical for the safety of everyone that all of the participating aircraft are trained in these airspace regulations and procedures. Even though there were military helicopters available during the last fire siege, without the proper training and radio equipment these aircraft would be a danger to all of the pilots that were involved in the air operation.

There is work/training going on now with the Marines and Navy so their pilots and aircraft may become a viable aerial firefighting resource in a future event.

Just because it flies and can drop water or retardant, it is not a safe resource to throw into the mix unless they know the rules.

Firefly

... and communicate on the same frequencies as fire commanders and know what the words and concepts being communicated mean... I agree 100%. Ab.

(the spin and shuffle).... The Official USDA Forest Service Fiscal Year 2008 Budget talking point (on the FS page)

The Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 President's Budget request for the Forest Service totals $4.13 billion in discretionary appropriations, a $64.25 million decrease from FY 2007. The FY 2008 Budget responds to our Nation's priorities of fighting the War on Terror and reducing the Federal deficit while it maintains funding levels for priority agency programs. Program reductions necessary to support agency priorities are substantially offset by process improvements and cost reductions from a restructuring of national and regional Forest Service headquarters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The most recent management efficiency is not a rumor. It's part of "Transformation" The goal by the WO and all the ROs is to reduce their managing expenses by 25% or 126 million dollars so that money gets to the ground. For years we've been yelling here that fire is the "cash cow" and everyone wants a rake off; well, here's one actual concerted move to reduce Regional and Washington expenses -- their rake off.

These links were posted on 11/9:
transformation_110907.doc (55K)
All_Empl._Ltr._Encl_Matrix.10_5_07.doc (45K)

The only concern I would have is that the people who run critical regional programs for fire safety do not get consolidated into the 3 mega-region streamlining. One I can think of is the work done with cooperators to fund and educate for interface fire efforts. It's called  in "Little Fire" or "COOP fire" in R5 and involves Firewise funding and many more things.

Lobotomy, we're probably not talking about the same issues here, since you're talking discretionary (appropriations) vs. mandatory spending (appropriations) but I think finding efficiencies of scale -- if the people making the decisions are knowledgeable regarding fire safety and don't increase risk -- well that's theoretically good. I think transparency is critical. Ab.

With all due respect to our CalFire brothers and sisters, words printed in all CAPITAL letters mean SHOUTING on the internet and in emails. I will continue using CalFire or, if people would rather, Cal Fire. This usage is no slight to our CalFire firefighters. I'm simply following standard pre-existing internet etiquette.

I'm very glad CalFire upgraded from CDF. Very appropriate and necessary change. Words do matter. (Pssssst, poster are you stirring the pot? HAW HAW) Ab.

Hotlist thread

Hotlist thread

Just a reminder that Federal OWCP does not always (ever?) have your best interest in mind when they deal with you after an injury/illness. They have taken the stance that a claim is never “settled” but always open. This means that if you had an injury 15 or more years ago for which you are still receiving treatment or compensation and for some reason you need to change doctors, i.e. your Dr. retires or you move/are transferred they are going to tell you that your new Dr. must provide a medical report including a “History of how the employment related injury occurred”. There are just a few Drs. out there that are somewhat reluctant to send a medical report on something that they don’t have any personal knowledge of and there are more than just a few Drs. that totally refuse to deal with OWCP on an ongoing basis

If you have the misfortune to have to deal with OWCP make very sure that you meet all the time lines they set. Keep copies of EVERYTHING, FOREVER, who knows when they will put you in a position of having to produce stuff they have had in their files for years.

Remember they have a dual standard for mail. If they mail something to you, you received it. If you mail something to them and they say they did not get it then you did not mail it and if you miss deadlines in ether case it is your problem. I would strongly suggest if it is a critical or time sensitive issue to spend the money and send it certified, return receipt requested.

If you are thinking of lawyering up you might take a hard look at the following from CA810 §4.1

D. Representation. The FECA provides that an employee may be represented if he or she so desires, but it is not required. A representative need not be an attorney; a union representative, family member or friend, for example, may act in this capacity. A Federal employee may act as a representative only for an immediate family member or in the capacity of a union representative. The employee must designate any representative in writing before OWCP will recognize him or her, and there can be only one representative at a time.

OWCP does not honor contingency fee agreements, and the law contains no provision for OWCP to pay representatives' fees. It does require, however, that OWCP approve such fees before payment. Where the representative and the employee agree on the fee charged, the fee is deemed approved. Where a disagreement exists, OWCP will evaluate the request. In this instance, the employee should not pay any fee prior to approval by OWCP, unless the fee is paid into a true escrow account.

So, if you don’t have the money to pay for a lawyer no matter what the outcome of your case, forget it. Even if you can fund it then you have to find a lawyer that is willing to work under these restrictions.

A couple of reference links:

For CA-810 a 94 page guide to “Injury Compensation for Federal Employees” www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/owcp/DFEC%20Folio/agencyhb.pdf

For a OWCP Lawyer’s site that has a wealth of information including links to OWCP forms and a lot of other resources. www.owcplawyer.com/?gclid=CPSR67W14o8CFQLaYAodol4YlQ

To a non-fed site about Federal OWCP www.fedworkerscomp.net/ Again a lot of helpful links and some sobering discussions.

SWID

Normbc9

Feel free to post it on the Hotlist:  So Cal Wind Events - 2007 Ab.

This contact is several years old, but I met the director in the south of France at a Oct. 2000 Euromediterranean fire conference with some 30 countries represented.

His card information is as follows:

Wildland Research Department CAF Director and Professor
Chinese Forest Fire Association General Secretary

<snip> Li Fu Ph.D
Address; Behind of the Summer Palace, <snip>
Tel: 86-10-<snip> Fax: 86-10-<snip>
P.C.: 1000xx
(Ab will forward the info.)

What I remember is he was a main player in China for forestry and fire.
He presented an article named Forest Fire in China at this conference. 14 pgs. in the
Euromediterranean Wildfire Meetings- Research Special Session at Hyeres, France.
The article covered the organization ,fire causes, weather, prevention, fire breaks,
prediction, technology, communication and cooperation.

Good luck,
Tony Crawford- CalFire (retired)

What is this rumor about?

There is a State & Private Forestry Redesign going on now. Toward the bottom of the page, there's a link to a Competitive Allocation Process Briefing Paper (pdf file)

Is R5 preparedness $$ being taken away and given to other organizations to protect forests?

No, much as I've heard CalFire would like that (tongue firmly in cheek). Money for this trial or experiment on 12 forest boundaries will come from funds allocated by congress for this purpose for interface communities.

There's an email from Tim at NIFC to USFS (and 1 BLM) people involved in the process. I'm not going to post it (kinda' boring...), but it clarifies that this is a congressional request to fund interface communities on up to 12 national forests using State Fire Assistance (SFA) funds, (not agency "preparedness funds"). Subject of the email is "The 12 National Forest Cross Boundary Protection".

Two nice websites at the bottom of the email for those interested in browsing what communities are doing to protect themselves... www.firewise.org and http://landfire.gov/

Mellie

Ab note: From the acronyms list... SFA =State Fire Assistance. In western states, NFP State Fire Assistance (SFA) funding is available and awarded “through a competitive process with emphasis on hazard fuel reduction, information and education, and community and homeowner action”; NASF = National Association of State Foresters.

I found this interesting site on Frequently Asked Questions about NIMS
(National Incident Management System).

My community was wondering about deadlines.

Tahoe Terrie

A very good book. I enjoyed it.
A refreshing change from some of the recent books about fire-fighting/smokejumping that sensationalize and glorify the job/lifestyle.

This factual book takes place in Missoula in the early 50’s. It was written in large part by using the author’s letters home as reference so the detail is fresh and crisp. Interesting for the descriptions of Western Montana in the 50’s but I enjoyed mostly for the life changing/ heart-charging experiences very similar to my own.

four saws !!

Jim

Thanks, Jim. I put it on the Fire Book Reviews page. Ab.

"We got a chance to ask them questions about forestry and firefighting in China, which is obviously very different than here in the States. The structure of their [government] organization is dissimilar to ours, in that it is a federalized system with provincial chiefs and more centralized. Most of their firefighting is done with hands-on labor, as they do not have as many resources, such as helicopters. They thought we must be really rich because of that!!!".

It seems safety is also an issue as standards for protective gear is "set by China Ministry of Public Security, specifying requirements for general-purpose protective wear for firefighters. The contents include general performance, flame resistant performance, mechanical performance, design and structure, making, marking, packing and transportation, methods of certification" citing some sort of standard "GA10-91" of mainland China. http://jumpo-safety.com/std.asp (Ab Question: Commercial site with standards for exported firefighter products?)

Based on what little info I found, it appears that wildland fire fighting in China is probably at least similar to our efforts on the ground, and perhaps some of the firefighters are military. I found nothing related to how firefighters are paid (the issue that generated my search). General comments were posted on 11/9/2007 by myself comparing the pay issues generally in the US and China such as "[im]migrant workers" and pay scales. At least we're not outsourcing our firefighting to China (yet!).

Ecologist.

One book I found interesting was Great Black Dragon Fire: A Chinese Inferno by Harrison Salisbury. Our library had it. As I recall, some firefighters were military but a great number were also local. Maybe some readers know more. Ab.

Thanks John. Interesting read. Ab

Ab, please post

That the discussion about DOI agencies not charging their
base pay to fires is incorrect. Within the FWS and the NPS, it is correct
that if you are fully funded in a fire suppression position your base pay
can not be charged to a fire. If you are funded in a fuels position your
base pay may be charged to a fire or project number.

Thanks,

M

Thanks for a the clarification. I've made a note on that previous post to see this one. Ab.

Bethany's website

"I have had the opportunity to work with Bethany when she was my crewboss at the Apprenticeship Academy in Sacramento and have taken her advice regarding the writing of apps. I used the handouts and information she provided to me and it helped me to get my permanent position. Later I used all of the same concepts and applied them to my Law Enforcement apps. And guess what...... I got both of the jobs that I applied for. She really knows what she is talking about and the tip sheets that she has are awesome.

For those out there looking, I recommend using what is available and has been offered. It worked for me."

As I said this summer, I fully endorse this service. I was fortunate enough to have her help when I was in the Apprentice Academy and so I did not have to pay for the advice offered by her. However, I am also sure that she has a much better chance to work with you one-on-one if you do pay for the AWESOME service that is provided. Bethany has a great amount of expertise in what she does and she knows what it takes to fully answer KSAs. If I were going to be applying for another position any time soon, I would probably use the service provided by Bethany. However, since I utilized the information provided when I was at the academy, I now hold a position that I should be in for some time and will be extremely happy (though it is not fire, I am just as busy if not more now) for a good amount of time. If you would like any more kudos about lumis-hannah, I would be more then happy to give them.

Guns-n-hoses

I'll get to some more pics tomorrow, cool though. Ab.

Nickolas, if you go to last July and search on moniker "Guns and hoses" , he recommended Bethany's service highly and got the job. Ab.

http://loomishannah.com/firefighter_applicants.htm

Thanks
Nicholas

Interesting and necessary discussion on Feds motelling it on fires! While
it is correct when a camp is set up with sleeping areas and a caterer that
personnel are required to stay there in most cases, it is NOT a hard and
fast rule. It never should be. As a Fed logistics chief with many years
of experience on all types of incidents all over the country, I've seen
specific agency guidelines from local to state to Fed that say you cannot
motel it - and I've seen these rules "broken". Remember, fatigue is REAL
and a huge threat to safe and effective performance. Keep in mind the
number one goal/objective on every fire - personnel safety! At times it
is nearly impossible to get sleep in camp for many reasons - long meal
lines, long shower lines, too much noise, etc.

If this is the case and a supervisor (whether hand crew, engine crew or
whatever) is concerned about their firefighters not getting enough rest
they have the RESPONSIBILITY to try to correct it. Talk to your supervisor
(DIVS/OPS) or Logs Chief about your concerns, by all means! Maybe he/she
isn't aware of the problems and they can help to correct it by bringing in
more units (shower, caterer) if available, or stagger shift times so that
not everyone gets back and tries to eat and shower at the same time, spike
people out - or maybe something else. The point is, something needs to be
done. Many times I've DOCUMENTED conversations with fireline personnel
where they spoke out about the poor conditions and I've gotten clearance
from the hosting agency AND DOCUMENTED it to get them into motels when
other solutions aren't viable for one reason or another. No one should
have to do this "under the radar".

We do not have to and should not have to put up with the dangerous effects
of cumulative fatigue. Any agency administrator, knowing that what is
going on is documented, is not likely to say that personnel cannot stay in
a motel for a night or two if that appears to be the only solution. They
should fear the consequences of not taking care of this legitimate problem.
We call this risk management! In fact, this type of situation should even
be put on the 215 A as a hazard to be mitigated and the Safety Officer, Ops
Chief, Logs Chief, Finance Chief, Plans Chief and IC should all be involved
with ensuring that the fireline personnel are well taken care of.

What if the overhead team doesn't do anything to help? DOCUMENT it - then
do what you need to in order to ensure the safety of your personnel. Ever
go to the Human Resource Specialist if the Logs or Ops Chief won't listen?
Try that! In many cases, the Human Resource Specialist works directly with
the IBA (Incident Business Advisor) and can get things done.

The bottom line is don't ignore it. You CANNOT ignore it if your personnel
are not able to perform effectively and safely due to fatigue. To do so is
a worse offense with worse possible consequences than paying for a night or
two in a motel. We need to get over this culture that indicates we are
wimps if we don't just try to bear with it. Granted, sometimes people ARE
wimps and just don't want to rough it at all, but someone has to make that
judgment call. If a crew has been out several days on hard assignments
staying in camps, I'm not going to tell them they are a bunch of wusses.
If they are coming in to a fire fresh, I'm not going to try to get them
motels if incident base is set up.

By the way - in most cases (where motels are available) it is cheaper to
put everyone up in a motel and to have meals served in town than it is to
set up a camp with a national caterer and shower unit and all of the
support equipment necessary for the camp. The distance (travel time) to
the fireline is always a factor in deciding whether to "camp" from town or
set up a remote Incident Base, the travel time being considered another
safety risk.

rmm

Thanks, rmm. Ab.

I believe the reason the Weingarten notice is circulating is that the FS
is about to begin a series of background checks on all perm FS employees.
As part of this, each employee is being asked such things as alcohol and
drug use, addresses for the last 7 years, neighbors names, friends names,
criminal records (including traffic tickets), etc........... These checks
are administrative and employees are required to answer the questions (may
not take the 5th), and any false answers could result in termination. As
you can imagine, the union is concerned.

TC

Same Garrity law snafu regarding compelled vs non-compelled testimony... I'll look for the posts on that and try to pull them together on the hotlist. Any help welcomed... Ab.

This is one of the main reasons They Said is so useful. As a mid-level
manager in the FS in fire management, I often never receive these
e-mail messages through agency channels. Many times I find them on
They Said and ask questions of upper-level management on the unit I
work on, and generally they don't have a clue either. This lack of
communication has been a perennial problem and certainly leads to a
lack of trust throughout our local unit, and the agency as a whole. We
have repeatedly asked to have "all e-mails" sent down to the lowest
level and let us decide if it is relevant or not. And this has never
been honored, so we in the trenches lack basic information on the how
and why of the agency. I'm know there are units out there that have
better communications, but out of the four different units I have
worked on, only one had an upper-level manager who was keen on keeping
the troops informed. Not a good average. Thanks for the They Said and
for all those who contribute to it.

R1 Fireman

Weingarten-Rights-during-Incident-(Safety)-Investigations.doc (141K doc file)

Misery Whip

It's circulating because attendees at a recent FS Council training session in Reno asked for an electronic copy. Anyone know exactly why it's circulating on the FS intranet? Ab.

If you are going to post on theysaid, Ab always asks us to "focus on the what not the who". This technique is described and discussed in Leadership-380. It's a Sun-Tsu concept (The Art of War) useful for fostering productive discussion. Issues are the focus, not personalities. Perhaps we could recommend some other readings for you if you haven't been able to take the training yet.

Here's how your post could be stated without interjecting the personal:

With respect to DOA and DOI differences in payment for fire:

The Forest Service (DOA) is allowed to lapse their base salary and
charge it to suppression. The Department of Interior agencies are not
allowed to do that. That causes the suppression pot that all agencies use
to be depleted rapidly and largely by the Forest Service while they save
their allocated preparedness dollars.

Tahoe Terrie

Thank you Terrie. Ab.

Yes, the Forest Service does charge salaries to a "P" code while Interior
does not. And if the Forest Service uses any resources on an Interior fire
and big ticket items such as aviation assets, other contractors, or showers, it
pays for that as well. Since Interior has few resources to offer, it pays
for very little. Does the Forest Service save a lot of money because it can
charge salary to a fire? Consider that it does not allocate sufficient funds
to the field for 7 day coverage for its engines. ...the answer is...  no..

Q

Thank you Q. Ab.
[Later Ab note added on 11/16] See the post by M on 11/16 entitled DOI -- FS PAY DIFFERENCES for more of the whole funding story. Some Fuels people in FWS & NPS (DOI) may charge their base pay to suppression. Ab.

So let me ask <snip> did you take your two breaks during your shift or did you ever pad your time to make an extra buck or have you ever signed an incorrect time sheet where people padded their time and didn't show breaks, because that is considered fraud so look out.

ME

Let's pretend for a minute that this and the previous post from MJ are or could be about the issue of a fed firefighter using per diem to get a motel room. Simply put for the newbie, what is the standard operating guideline? When might the guideline be broken in the interest of safety? New people should learn the guidelines before they learn when those might not apply.

Anybody whose first initial is M wants to go beyond that with personal comments, I'd be happy to copy and paste emails back and forth behind the scenes. You can duke it out there... Ab.

SH

Noname-0

[Later Ab note added on 11/16] See the post by M on 11/16 entitled DOI -- FS PAY DIFFERENCES for more of the whole funding story. Some Fuels people in FWS & NPS (DOI) may charge their base pay to suppression. Ab.

"Firefighters don't have to put up with this type of cr*p. I am sure all the CDF engines and
overhead are staying in motels. Head to one yourself and charge it to perdiem. If that does not
work call their bluff and have them send you home. "

What Bluff are you referring to??? Just a reminder to the new FED ENGB's out there, especially USFS. DON'T DO WHAT THE QUOTE ABOVE SAYS!! If they offer you a sleeping area, even if you don't like it, with a sleeping bag, you DO NOT have the choice to go to a hotel and put it on Per Diem. This would be Federal fraud.

Same goes for meals. say you don't want to wait in a 500 person food line for a hour and a half, so you take your Engine crew to McDonalds. You can NOT claim that meal on your Per Diem claim, because they offered you a meal. You just chose not to eat it.

I know it's hard when it seems like every other Agency on an incident is hoteled up, eating at restaurants, but you signed up for a FED Agency. These are the rules for FEDS. no way around them. Just because you do not like the sleeping area is no reason to commit a Federal offense, as Fraud would be in this case.

They do catch folks doing this. And BAD things happen to them. I know it might not be fair, But read the Adverse Action Digest once in a while. You can be demoted and stripped of Red card ratings, fines, suspended, or even fired and jailed. These have all happened.
Don't teach your new folks bad habits.
Use your modules supply dollars and buy GOOD tents, not the cheap 60-second ones. Buy GOOD sleeping bags. He*l, even buy cots if you must, but don't teach a whole new generation to commit Federal fraud just because you didn't get a hotel room.
I was on Slide and Grass Valley Fires in Arrowhead. I tented up the whole time, under the ski lift. Yes, it was bright, cold, and noisy, but I made due. And that is what you should do, too. Sniveling to go home just gives us all a bad name. Just suck it up and make due, or get a job with a Union contract that allows such luxuries.

Sheesh.....

-MJ

Somebody needs a chill pill? Ab.

Upcoming Wind Event - SOPS

Hello Chiefs. SOPS is looking at a predicted wind event for the upcoming
Mon-Wed timeframe. There is another event predicted (w/lower confidence)
for the weekend following the holiday. Ralph is determining the status of
the severity package with the WO. I have requested that they place orders
for NOPS resources soon, so people can make the necessary plans for the
upcoming holidays. I will keep you posted on any changes or opportunities.

******************************************
Joe Millar
Shasta Trinity National Forest

MS,

You have it right and I’m sure happy to see the person who history will bear out is the most progressive and forward thinking Fire and Aviation Director in the USFS R-5 history has ever experienced.

How many of you knew about the funding shortages artificially imposed and then leaving the Forest Service to fend for itself when and where it can? The issue -- of having to carry the costs of the Hurricane disasters, Floods, Earthquakes and other disaster relief out of the finds needed to run the organization when those other needs aren’t ever factored in -- is a tough job for the top managers and the writer sure did his best to absorb the brunt of those money shortages when needed. Now, the new guard has a different view of things and out goes the baby with the bath water.

I know those who are at the top level management do read this forum and recently they are probably on it every day. The real facts of the matter are that there are elected officials who are now becoming very interested in what is happening as well. I had a conversation with one recently who told me she suspected now, after reviewing the facts, that a lot of this we are seeing now was developed to be choreographed to happen over the span of a decade. She even suspects that some of the reference materials adopted as policy were developed after a careful author search with the idea in mind that a grant would be awarded to the selected author who would put into print what those architects wanted to have documented. If that is really a fact, then there has been a form of a conspiracy in action for some time.

Like Q stated, there are some very highly recognized authorities and academics making all sorts of claims and they don’t even have a clue. I personally was on the Conejos, McKinley, Inaja, Walker Basin, Laguna and other very fast spreading wind driven fire events. They are not new to us. The problems now are how to deal effectively with defending the newer improvements built up in the historic paths of these wild fire events. Cutting monies for the items Q describes is not the correct way to address the problems. If you think that weather and fire behavior of the 2007 fire siege was a new dimension, think again. It was not. It is, however, one now complicated by the urbanization of many areas in the historic fire paths in which no effective pre-fire defense measures have been initiated. If you want to see some success just take a look at the statistics for the fires this fall in Los Angeles County . They had the most structures threatened and had the fewest burn. Why? Effective planning and implementation of effective fire defense measures. The Magic fire burned right within the Stevenson Ranch Planned Community and there wasn’t even an evacuation needed. This could be true of all jurisdictions but not with the current USFS plan. And the local governments in this state share in that failure to initiate those recommendations made by the Blue Ribbon Commission two years ago.

I do remember Q rising to tell all at that Blue Ribbon session that if the group implemented the recommendations (48 of them) maybe we could start seeing a reduction in losses. If not, we’d all be back again, much sooner than we would like, to discuss an even more disastrous set of events. Well, here we are. A working group of the Blue Ribbon Commission has been reconvened and told by the governor to “think outside the box.” In my opinion, the work is already done. All that the local governments have to do is lay aside their petty differences and implement the recommendations submitted by a very hard working staff from the Blue Ribbon Commission, of which the USFS was one of the major contributors.

Thanks Q for being the sage that you are. Here we all are again standing around and using some valuable monies that could be helping the USFS to get back into its rhythm. The Tom and Ed show may be in trouble this time too.

Normbc9

That being said, I figure here is the place to alert them to a potential immediate
problem. It appears the weather models and forecasters are starting to agree
that we may be in for another significant offshore event next week here in
South Zone. Do you think this time they might follow their own 'talking
points' and 'move resources to where the need is'?

Still Wondering

I understand the RO and the WO REALLY know there's a problem. I don't know any more. Ab.

Western States Data
Public Land Acreage (FS & BLM), Percentage of Land Base, and Population
November 13, 2007

Rankings in Total Acreage by State/Agency:

Forest Service (NFS)-

1) Alaska (21.97 million acres)
2) California (20.8 million acres)
3) Idaho (20.5 million acres)
4) Montana (17 million acres)

BLM-

1) Alaska (87 million acres)
2) Nevada (48 million acres)
3) Wyoming (18.4 million acres)
4) Oregon (15.7 acres)

Rankings by Percentage of Land Base by State/Agency:

Forest Service-

1) Idaho (38%)
2) Oregon (23%)
3) Colorado and Washington (22%)

BLM-

1) Nevada (68%)
2) Wyoming (29%)
3) Oregon (23%)

Rankings by Population:

1)  California (36,457,549)
2)  Washington (6,395,798)
3)  Arizona (6,166,318)
4)  Colorado (4,753,377)
5)  Oregon (3,700,758)
6)  Nevada (2,495,529)*
7)  New Mexico (1,954,599)*
8)  Idaho (1,466,465)*
9)  Montana (944,632)*
10) Alaska (670,053)*

Total NFS Land Acreage: 192.8 Million Acres
Total Western States Acreage (Above): 155.53 Million Acres
Western States Percentage of Total NFS Lands: 81%

Ref:
Forest Service Data: www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/lar/2007/TABLE_4.htm
BLM Data: From various state office websites.
Population Data: 2006 U.S. Census Bureau estimates.

Posted here as well: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/western-states-data-public-land.htm

*****THIS IS A INFORMATION BULLETIN*****
PLEASE DELIVER TO REGIONAL FIRE AND RESCUE COORDINATOR

Please forward and distribute to the OES Fire and Rescue Regional Coordinator and OES Fire and Rescue Operational Area Coordinators within your Region.

Please ensure that the OES Fire and Rescue Operational Area Coordinators forward and distribute to Local Fire Agencies within their Operational Areas.

ANAHEIM, Calif., Nov. 6, 2007 - Following The Walt Disney Company's recent announcement that it is donating $2 million to fire relief efforts,

<snip><snip><snip>

Theme Park Offer Details
"Disney's Wildfire Heroes Salute" tickets can be obtained only at Disneyland(r) Resort ticket booths. Active Southern California firefighters, law enforcement or rescue personnel living in zip codes 90000 to 93599 must present a valid organization identification and photo. To purchase up to five tickets for family members or friends, the eligible individual must show the complimentary ticket issued to them, in addition to valid organization identification and photo. Tickets for family members <snip>

BUT WAIT, there is one small catch. If you go to the website. Scroll down to the "Theme Park Offer Details". It states "Active Southern California firefighters, law enforcement or rescue personnel living in zip codes 90000 to 93599 must present a valid organization identification and photo." So I guess those that weren't impacted by the fires (which is minimal) get part of the deal, while the rest of who answered the call for help are ignored. Go figure.

Happy California Cow 

Q's Perspective on Forest Service, 1.5 Years after Retirement

I was recently asked my perspective of the Forest Service since my retirement a year and a half ago. Without being a “side line quarter-back,” what would I change?

I’ll begin with budget! This last fiscal year approximately 51% of the agency's budget was for fire and fuels. In fiscal 2006 it spent approximately 45% of its funds on fire, hurricanes, and other incidents in which it had responsibility and or was called upon to act. In '06 about $300 million was taken from the fire/fuels budget at the Washington Office level for various other programs and support. In '07 this number increased to $ 400 million. These numbers in themselves are not alarming. It is the trickle down effect that becomes the concern, or what finally gets to those who do the work on the ground.

The pre-suppression budget doesn’t just occur from someone’s wild imagination. The numbers are generated from the National Fire Plan Model (NFPM). It defines needed initial attack levels in order to minimize loss of resources and suppression cost. It has been used for many years and even though it is limiting in scope it has been shown to be a fairly accurate tool for Initial Attack (IA) needs. There are countless cases of forests and regions ignoring the pre identified IA levels and finding themselves far short of their needs for IA resulting in escapes costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to finally bring a fire under control. In the year 2000 after the many fires that occurred in Montana, the administration supported the request by the Forest Service to fully fund the National Fire Plan in hopes that this would reduce the mass destruction and cost of large fires. Even though the plan had been sanctioned for many years, this was the first time the plan was fully funded and direction was to implement the plan at the 100% level. Funding had always been far short, usually to about the 60% IA level. By 2004, Region 5 had purchased most of the additional assets needed to meet the plan and was very close to complying with the direction from the Washington Office. I’m of the understanding that some time in 2005 OMB was upset with the amount of money the agency was spending in the pre/post suppression mode and wanted a model that would show less needs, in terms of dollars, with the same success. Since full funding for NFPM did not dramatically reduce suppression cost, there was the call for a different model. As of a year ago, the new model had proven invalid. Reductions in IA resources used in the model, in fact, showed substantial increases in escape fires from Initial Attack and increased cost. The objective of OMB to reduce the pre- and post-suppression effort by using a model showing less preparedness dollars, resulted in an increase of suppression expenditures. Understand, the agency was given more funds for pre-suppression and for fuels reduction than ever before in the year 2000. While Region 5 was actually using the funds for their intended purpose, other regions used the additional funds for other than preparedness, thus the additional resources were not showing up. As a matter of fact, Region 5 became the primary supplier of suppression resources and Incident Management Teams for the nation. It was obvious by the lack of available resources in other regions that the funds were going elsewhere.

In 2005 and '06 the Washington Office made huge dips into the pre-suppression (preparedness) and fuels budgets to be used for other than fire/fuels. The fire and fuels funds became the primary “cash trough” for the agency to feed its other wants. This was not done because the agency was given too much money in fire/fuels, rather the WO leadership had wants in other areas that were not funded. Leadership at the WO and RO levels would take dollars from Fire at the onset of the fiscal season for its other wants, and hope the fire season would be slow and stay within the total agency allocated budget. Unfortunately, the cost of fighting fire continued to grow and there were no “quiet” seasons to speak of, resulting in over-spending at the end of the year with funds having to be taken from engineering, recreation, etc to pay for part of the feeding frenzy that occurred at the beginning of the year.

How effective was the full implementation of the NFPM? 
The 2004 season resulted in the driest season ever recorded for California. Yet, because of the build-up of IA resources in the region, there were few major fires in California. The agency spent a lot of money on the NFPM and Region 5 proved it worked. However, in '05 the agency took so much money off the top that the region had to go to a 5 day staffing instead of the usual 7, significantly reducing IA capability and timely support for escape fires. On the one hand, there are major complaints of the cost of fighting large fires; on the other, the dollars to reduce large fires and to accomplish fuels work is taken and used for something else.

One of the cornerstones for keeping suppression cost down is maintaining an effective level of IA resources. The reduction of 7 day coverage meant instead of having 274 engines 7 days a week, the 2 days off meant a reduction of about 35%. Budget allocated to the region did not cover the other 2 days. With a fleet of 274 engines and over 21 million acres to cover, in California as well as coverage on other federal and state lands, the reduction of IA forces is significant. The bottom line is more escapes, greater loss of natural resources, private property and increased exposure to both the public and the firefighter with bigger and faster moving fires. In terms of cost, the increased cost of suppression speaks for itself.

The trickle down effect continues in the fuels program as well. In '06 the region was given approximately $48 million in fuels dollars. By the time the Quincy Library funding was met and the dollars were taken out by other than fire at the Regional level, there were about 16-18 million to distribute to the forests. This is a lot of money, but in terms of the area and fuels problem in California it falls way short of meeting minimal needs. Examples of this include the following: The 3000 plus Santine/Burton lots under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service at the Lake Tahoe Basin have never been funded for fuels reduction. The beetle infestation problem in Southern California has never been fully funded nor has the rest of the region been funded sufficiently to make a significant difference to reduce cost and loss from wildfire.

As a matter of fact there is yet to be a Land Management Plan in the Forest Service in California that once written has been “gamed” to test if it could survive from the most frequent and catastrophic event in the state, wildfire! There have been numerous reviews and studies showing that fuels treatments have played a major role in reducing fire spread and resource damage. There have also been frequent studies showing the initial attack (IA) levels needed to be successful. These studies have shown it is more effective and less costly to use our own resources rather than contractors. In spite of these many reviews, the agency is not willing to use the funds for their intended purpose and continues to increase the use of contractors during suppression. As of late, the use in contract engines and crews has increased significantly. Approximately 60-70% of total suppression cost for fire suppression goes to contractors with a trend to increase their use. This only exacerbates the ever-increasing cost of fighting fire. The trickle down effect is like a roaring flood only with little water. If the agency truly believes life, property and our natural resources are its real priorities, it needs to walk the talk, that is put the funds on the ground to do that for which funding was intended. IA crews do a lot of good work in fuels reduction projects and at a lesser cost than contractors. The use of fuels dollars on other than fuels projects results in increased suppression cost, increased difficulty to control a fire and increased potential for greater resource loss and private property as well. It increases the exposure of our public in the direct path of harm's way and significantly increases the exposure to our public servants, especially to our firefighters trying to protect the public, their homes and our natural resources.

I find it disturbing that several professors have written that, in its effort to reduce large fires, full suppression became the standard for controlling wild land fire by the Forest Service. Forest fire suppression was one of the big reasons the agency was established, to get a handle on the large devastating fires that were plaguing the landscape. The USFS struggled for years to find ways to put out fires as quickly as possible due to their mass destruction and loss of life. It went from foot patrols, to horseback, to lookouts, to permanent fire crews, to what we have today. What we have in common today and what we had then are thousands of unmanaged forests with tons of dead and down fuel. It was recognized then and the situation has not changed today. Massive logging without clean-up was a formula for disaster, as are the thousands of acres of unmanaged stands with massive fuels build up we have today. The results of the trickle down of dollars is creating a catastrophic event that will be far greater the 2003 fire siege.

Today in California alone there are over 35 million residents. The mediterranean climate in California is the warmest of its kind in the world. Two thirds (2/3) of all fires are started by people in the state, and the east wind corridors are well identified and have been occurring for hundreds of years. Adjacent to these vast forests are homes built under outdated building codes, many of which are decaying, as are our forests. All this is over thousands of acres of brush and timber with very little fuels management. In addition, the checkered ownership of federal and private lands adds to this very complex environment. To say this full suppression mode is the reason for these large fires makes about as much sense as saying structure fires occur because fire departments try to put them out! The population surrounding the forests is on a steep increase as is the recreational use. Without a full suppression mode there is a significant increase in potential of loss of life. Within California there are few opportunities to allow fire to burn without some kind of constant oversight. If fire is to be used as a tool to reduce fuels loadings, prescribed fire can and should be used even in those areas designated as wilderness. The air sheds alone limit the use of prolonged “natural fire.” The combination described is about when a major fire will occur, causing a destruction level we have not yet seen. Something can still be done, but requires use of existing funds for their intended purpose.

Another area that needs to be addressed relates to what the Forest Service is paying for when it should come from some other funding source. Over the years the Forest Service has been saddled with paying out of its appropriated funds not only for wild land fire but for hurricane support, structure protection, practically anything requiring expertise of the Incident Command System. Even the support that the Incident Management Teams gave during the 9/11 attack was paid out of appropriated dollars from the Forest Service budget. Expenditures for wild land fire are coded under what is called a “P” code to pay for fire suppression. If the incident is other than wild land fire, expenditures are coded under what is called an “F” code. Whether a P or F code, the funds come out of appropriated dollars to the agency. This means all the work on the shuttle recovery, hurricanes, 9/11 was all charged to an “F” code which was used only for tracking and the funds still came from the Forest Service budget.

Some years ago the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Interior agreed to not charge each other for fire suppression costs. Any suppression assistance one gives to the other is free. As it turns out, the Forest Service pays for most of the suppression costs incurred on Interior lands such as the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the National Park Service (NPS). This is because the Forest Service has most of the suppression resources, from Incident Management Teams to crews, etc. This is very, very costly to the Forest Service and is no longer affordable. However, fires that need Incident Management Teams or fire crews from the Forest Service on Department of Defense lands such as military reservations (Camp Pendleton), DOD does reimburse the Forest Service for any expenses incurred. And so it should be also for the Dept of Interior. Why should the Forest Service pay for suppression of fires on somebody else’s jurisdiction?

The argument for doing this is "federal dollars are federal dollars!" At the end of the fiscal year, however, there is a balancing of the books. Any expenses on a "P" or "F" code are charged to the Forest Service budget -- which means funds from recreation, engineering dept, etc need to cough up the shortages even if the expenditures were for an agency other than ours. Bottom line is that Interior gets off for free, as does support for FEMA. It is obvious the balancing of the "books" demanded of the agency at end of the fiscal year, doesn’t fit with the "federal dollars are federal dollars" argument, the reason there is no need to have Interior or FEMA pay for services rendered. These kinds of agreements which result in The Forest Service not getting reimbursed, need to be dropped or revised.

Today FEMA is very much involved in the payment of suppression costs to state and local fire department once the suppression cost in that state has exceeded a pre identified floor cost for that state. The floor cost can be one fire or the accumulation of several fires. Today FEMA will pay up to 75% of those suppression costs back to the state and local fire. Any funds the Forest Service spends on fire, again comes from its appropriated budget and not from FEMA. However, in the last few years the majority of high cost fires in California occurred along the border of private and federal land holdings; thus has involved more effort and cost in protecting structures than ever before, and the urban interface is growing.

The Forest Service is authorized to suppress (externally) structure fires to keep them from spreading to federal jurisdiction. There has been a lot of discussion recently about "pulling" back from fighting structures fires, not our job, let somebody else do it, etc. Those who think this are truly naïve, in that a structure is another concentration of fuel often surrounded by federal lands. Suppressing the structure fire often results in keeping the fire from spreading to the National Forests. I suggest rather than pull back, have FEMA fund structure suppression. Large fires usually result in the addition of a "structure division or branch", the focus of which is primarily structure protection. If FEMA can pay for 75% of state and local suppression, it can also pay for the cost incurred with structure branches by the Federal agencies, which would reinforce the integrity of the agency's use of its funds for "wild land fire". With the use of "Cost Apportionment", identification of these costs will be fairly easy to track. It’s time the Forest Service is given support by other agencies for the expanding use of the Forest Service in areas other than fire. The Forest Service budget is being butchered both internally as well as externally; this needs to stop. The rules that govern Forest Service expenditures need to be reviewed and updated.

It is also time for the agency to walk the talk and to bring back the integrity of the use of the dollar and spend it for its intended purpose. Until this happens, protection of the fire fighter, the public, private property, or our natural resources has little to no credibility to those on the ground, to those who have lost loved ones while in the line of duty, to those who have lost homes due to wild land fire.

Finally, it is time for the politicians, the environmentalists, the city and county officials to recognize that there are "fire corridors" as there are hurricane corridors and flood plains, and that if human habitation is to occur in these areas, human life must be shown to be paramount by the actions taken in these areas. This includes upgrading building codes, egress, thinning of the forests, etc. If this doesn’t change, the continuation of events as the Laguna Fire, the '03 and '07 Sieges should come as no surprise.

Q

Q's Perspective-1.5-yr-later.htm on its own page and I'm placing it in Documents Worth Reading. Ab.

I don't know where Rogue Rivers got his/her information,
But, So. Ops and Intel were open last weekend.

Thanks

Mary

Thanks, Mary. No holiday for you guys/gals, eh? Ab.

You can reach me at 509-965-0624 or respond on here.

Chad James
WA DNR Ahtanum Crew Foreman
AHC

I'm really glad you got through the vomiting stage and had an
awesome experience. It was quite fun to see/hear what you
were up to. I know you wanted to make the trek anyway, but
thanks for using it to benefit the WFFoundation.

$20479.51 in donations and pledges. Nice.

I hope all the info can be collected in one place before your
blog disappears, etc. Maybe I can help with getting it on your
hotlist thread so it's available for reference..

Thanks Ken. Thanks also to Wendy, Lori, Mike, Ian and families,
to donors, to Melissa at the WFF and to this website.

Cheers!

Mellie

But I feel kind of compelled to comment on the issue of negative attitude toward women in fire. For those of you who don’t know me, I am female, despite my androgynous moniker. I was working an ER shift when a local fire chief for a decent-sized, mixed (vollie and professional), all-male department came in with a patient. On his way out, he cornered me and proceeded to inform me that women had no place in fire or EMS, and that I was only endangering other responders, and “what did (I) think (I) was playing at?”. I had been aware of this guy’s attitude through the grapevine for a while, so I informed him that he was entitled to his opinion, but I didn’t particularly care how he felt and I didn’t intend to change my behavior because of it. It just so happened that two (male) nurses who happened to witness the incident found my behavior a lot more acceptable than his; over the next year they passed on some very cool training opportunities for me. Over that same year, Chief Dinosaur lost his job (not over that).

The great thing about karma is how pragmatic it can be; if you treat other people badly, people don’t want to work with you, and you don’t get what you want. And the great thing about dinosaurs is that they tend to die out. Hycatal, my hat is off to women like you (and Mellie, and countless others) who worked (and work) harder than the guys to prove we can do the same job. The fight isn’t won yet, but I think word is out that those attitudes are counter-productive.

Nerd on the Fireline

My name is Patrick, and I am one of the firefighters in the picture with the president.
We are from the Bishop CA, BLM. We were down there with a task force from
the Inyo. We have emailed the CalFire rep about the pictures. If you have any
questions feel free to email me.

Patrick

Excellent! Ab.

Well, I’m back and I, once again, wanted to thank everyone for supporting me on my adventure, and for supporting the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

I had an incredible experience in the Sahara Desert. I met many people from around the world. Some competitive racers; others (like me) that were looking for a challenge for themselves, and a way to raise money for a charity. The fires in Southern California were a hot topic of discussion around the campfire at night. Why was I there? How did I manage to get away to come to Egypt? The only thing I could tell them was that the Californians were in good hands…even without me. The camps at night were amazingly like Smokejumper camps, so I was right at home, in that respect.

The Sahara is an awesome place. Other than the people I was with, there is no sign of human life out there. I saw one jet contrail during the 7 hour bus-ride out to the start, and that was probably either and Egyptian or Libyan MiG patrolling the western border. And one night under the clearest skies I have ever experienced, I believe I saw the space shuttle passing over head. The air is so clean, and there is so little moisture in the atmosphere that it looks as if you could truly reach up and touch a star. Why there are no space observatories out there is beyond me. You can’t swing a dead cat in the western world without hitting someone, or something man-made. Here, there is nothing. There were times during the stages that I would be completely alone. As far as I could see forward and back…no one to be seen.

If you looked at some of the pictures, you noticed that in some of the areas we traveled there were black specks all over the ground. This was fossilized corral. In some places there were still the feathers there, as if the sea-bed had drained yesterday. I came across fossils of…I don’t know what…they were concentric circles of different colors 3 to 5 meters across in the rock. Ancient Jelly-fish, perhaps? There were rock formations that would morph into animals…and different animals depending on what angle you were looking at them from. I tend to hallucinate when I get tired, but these were obvious. The great Saharan Bunny Rabbit was the best. From miles away you could clearly see a bunny’s ears, body and tail. But as I passed by (changing the view by 90 degrees) it changed to a raptor perched on a rock, or branch. The 5 story Baboon head was cool. It could have been a Macaque head to my Japanese friends, but it was nonetheless a Primate of some sort. There were mirages big enough to land a Martin Mars on. A “cartoon” Oasis appeared on the 4th stage, with a bubbling spring at its heart.

Day 3 brought us to an ocean of sand. Literally as far as the eye could see, there was nothing but sand. No trees, no bushes….not a blade of grass. I was reminded of the Apollo astronaut that described the Moon as being “magnificent desolation”. I describe this place as, “the incredible beauty, of absolute nothingness”. There was one point, where I was a few hundred meters behind someone for a period of time. At one point I looked up, and he was gone. But, off to the right I saw something white lying in the sand. It wasn’t moving, and I became concerned that my fellow competitor had gotten off the course, and had collapsed. I decided I had better go see what was up. In 10 seconds I was upon the white “thing”. It was just a white “thing” and it wasn’t hundreds of meters away, it was merely a few feet away. In that ocean of sand, there is nothing to judge distance or size to. It gives you pause, and you understand why one might be found (or never be found, for that matter) dead next to a lake that was never there.

The last stage, a 10K sprint through Giza to the Pyramids was almost as surreal, but for different reasons. We basically got dropped off on the side of the road, next to a canal filled with….I’m guessing it was water, but it was hard to tell with all the garbage, and bloated horse carcasses. As we got off the busses, the two course markers took off, putting out the familiar pink flags. We then began running along the road next to the canals. Anyone that has ever been to Cairo, knows that traffic is an adventure in and of itself. The I-405 during rush hour is nothing. Cars do NOT stop for pedestrians, and there are no speed limits. I wondered why they waste money painting lines on the road, they surely don’t use them. Anyway, at one point I was running on the canal side of the road, when, after a couple of near misses, I began to think that I had two options. I could get to the other side of the road where I had a chance to escape, or I could stay here, and survive the impact of getting hit, only to be thrown into the canal and die several days later from a massive septic infection. Not more than 2 minutes after switching to the other side of the road….(I must explain that there is no such thing as running facing “into” traffic, as there is no such thing as directions on the roads of Cairo)….. I was hit on the left hand by the rearview mirror of a passing car. I was lucky; another runner was T-boned, breaking his arm.

We then turned off the main road, and began a swerving our way through back alleys dodging camels and donkeys, running through the sewage thrown from the front doors of the mud huts lining the alleys…..Not good when your feet are nothing but open sores. Septic shock comes to mind again, and the plan that as soon as you get to the finish…off come the shoes and socks, and every last alcohol swab you have will be used on your feet. I even had the idea that when we got back to the hotel that evening, I would buy a bottle of Gin to soak my feet in….probably drink a little too.

Then, as we all has suspected, it became apparent that as soon as the flags were placed, they were immediately removed by all of the children. So getting lost was easy to do. There were “supposed” to be some folks on the course to guide us. And there probably were on the main roads, where we didn’t need so much help. But they surely weren’t going to hang out in the ghetto. The night after the long day, in the desert, I had refilled my camelback with electrolyte mix. This day I also carried a water bottle with plain water. Well, in one of the alleyways a woman jumped in front of me and wanted money. I didn’t have any, but offered her my half filled water bottle instead…mainly just so I could keep going, right? I still had a ways to go, but I figured I still had a full camelback. So, another K down the way, and I took a big pull off of the tube. Carbohydrates are sugars, right? Well, sugar water sitting in a camelback bladder (that hasn’t been cleaned in 6 days) all day long in the hot African sun….well it ferments. So it was quite a surprise (although it shouldn’t have been I guess) to taste a grape margarita, or daiquiri. I had no choice….I didn’t think of it at the time, but I suppose I could have soaked my feet in that back at the hotel.

We then came into the Pyramid complex. What a sight. We were at 248 kilometers, but it put a little pep in your step to zig zag through the Pyramids, running past tourists wearing plaid clam-diggers and knee-socks. And to the finish line overlooking the great Pyramids of Giza. And finally in front of the Pyramids, and do something that was more hazardous than dodging cars…stand with Kobi and Roy and unfurl the flag of Israel in front of the Pyramids. I think my father would have thought that would be cool to see. I must say that the finish was a tad bitter-sweet, in that I had never crossed a finish line without Wendy being there. Then I remembered that it was 1:00 AM back home. Let the cold Pesi and beer flow!

I learned a lot about adventure racing; mainly about what to carry and what to leave behind. I estimate I lost between 7-10 lbs. during the race. I didn’t have the opportunity to weigh myself until I got home. But I pretty much ate non-stop from the first pizza slice at the Pyramids till I got home…including the cookies that Lori brought to LAX for me.

It was a wonderful experience to be able to participate in this race. And it was again wonderful to see the support that the wildland fire community extended to me and the WFF. I’m not sure what is next, Gobi March or Atacama Crossing. It’s a pretty spendy vacation, but worth every penny. If any other firefighters feel like it would be something they would like to try (not try…do), they do have a team category, and we would have wailed on the Brits that won the team competition this year.

Thanks everyone. The E-mails were pretty cool to get out there, although, in some cases, I didn’t know who they were from. It didn’t matter; I appreciated them nonetheless There are a few that I never did get (after Oct. 31), but RTP should be able to send them to us, hopefully. Thank you to Melissa and Lori who flew down to LAX to greet me. I got a bigger welcome than the former lead guitarist from Guns ‘N Roses (who was on the flight from London). Anyone that knows me, knows I’m a bit shy. So it was a bit embarrassing to round the corner out of Customs to see a big banner, and a bunch of cheering people. But, again, it was nice.

Peace, KCP

P.S. Mellie, I only vomited twice…and it could be considered one continuous vomit…on the first day. Just on the off chance you were wondering.

Chris was way off base with his understanding of consent decree history. I've known Max Peterson for years and his actions were not designed to harm the FS.

Nevertheless, Chris spoke his opinion, and did so in a manner that challenged agency actions and policy as he perceives. He made no attacks on any individuals. Similar challenges that are equally off base are widely discussed here in this forum. It appears that you surrendered to political correctness in removing Chris's message. Such action diminishes the value of this site. Will you also remove all messages that I find offensive?

Old Fire Guy

Maybe, what do you want removed? (tongue placed way in cheek) Ab.

I put it back, but I'm only being PC. Ab.

Just wanted to drop in and say THANKS to all the vets in here. Whether it's a war
of arms or a war of nature, the ones we know and the ones we'll never know about.

THANK YOU.

Tom Stein

What do we need to do to make that happen? Emails? Letters to congressional reps?

Mellie

Normbc9

note from Janet Upton from last week:

Here is what I need: ID and contact information for the ff’s in the photo w/ the President so the White House can send them autographed copies. The photo was taken at the Witch Fire Incident Base on Thursday, October 25 th at approximately 1230 hours. I was the Deputy IC for the dignitary detail team and can be reached at
email: janet.upton at fire.ca.gov. (remove spaces and put in @ sign)

Thanks for any assistance you can provide. I know the firefighting community will come through with the info!

Janet Upton
CAL FIRE ICT #5

PHOTO OF FIREFIGHTERS with Pres  WHO ARE THEY?

mcleod here again... Ab, please add:

I looked and there were no BLM on that fire on 25th of October. CAL FIRE Team #10 (Kerschen) was in Unified Command of the incident. There were
52 inmate crews (it's not them);
1 LGR type 1 crew,
7 FS engines,
40 OES engines;
(46x5+8) = 238 LGR engines;
(14x5+10) = 80 CalFire engines.
2883 personnel total.

Wow, she might not figure it out... unless someone recognizes them. The photo is not very good, either... Needle in a haystack.

"Lee County is an example of 'Wildland Urban Interface,' (snip) "We don’t have the densely-populated areas as those regions do, but it is getting that way," said Andy Guy, the Lee County manager for the Alabama Forestry Commission. "Lee County is an example of that. We are getting new people and new subdivisions every day."

Guy said Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) is defined as the area where houses meet and intermingle with undeveloped wildland
vegetation.

He said the location of Monday night’s meeting at Mary Olive Thomas Demonstration Forest on Moores Mill Road is a perfect example of WUI. The Thomas tract is about 400 acres with neighborhoods going up all around it.

Surrounded by a Loblolly pine forest, the pavilion in the Mary Olive Thomas Demonstration Forest served as the setting for supper and the Lee County Fall Landowners Meeting hosted by the Lee County Forest Stewardship Committee.

Guy said forest fragmentation is one of several issues related to WUI.

"Today, the 1,000-acre tracts are being divided up into 10- or 20-acre tracts. Some of them have 500 to 600 homes on them now."

"A lot of traditional forest practices are hard to do when you have that many people surrounding your land," the Lee County manager said. "With those challenges, some of those alternatives can be costly."

Guy listed some of those risks as: smoke from prescribed burns, drift from herbicide treatments, zoning issues and logging equipment.

He said with more landowners and more property lines, you have more neighbors uneducated about forestry.

Guy said they are also having a hard time locating vendors willing to work on a smaller acreage of trees. (ETC, click the link)

Signed-

HF3 in ID

HF3 in ID, Chris is not a current FS employee and not a regular poster here. Could simply be a pot stirrer. Some people and what they say are beyond worrying about. I have removed his post. Ab.

Nice graph from the folks in Nevada about Federal ownership of land:

http://dcnr.nv.gov/nrp01/land01.htm

JerseyBoy

I doubt any change in interpretation of FS Mission will take any state, any "whole lot'ta nothin" country, any population or any proportion of GDP generated into account. Ab.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I too have a few observations

The FMAG program good or bad is available to agencies and is granted based on the thresholds set for each agency.

CALFIRE does not get any money until that annual threshold is met. Although it reaches it very early each year.

You said that the FMAG program takes away money that would otherwise be available to the Federal agencies to support archaic pay and personnel policies affecting Federal firefighters. In the next paragraph, you state there is very little incentive to reign in cost on incidents. If the Federal agencies get the much needed raises they need (and they do) would that not significantly raise incident cost? I feel strongly that to place a priority to reign in costs on all incident leads to bad decision making in strategy and tactics.

You raised the question of paying the cooperators in Ca their current salaries including OT and backfill costs. I don't know what backfill costs are. The rate that is billed as I understand is the standard OT rate for that individual plus the admin fee.

According to the Cooperative Fire Protection Agreement (CFPA), and the California Fire Assistance Agreement (CFAA), all agencies agreed to the rates.

Should the Federal Govt take their FF's off the clock during an incident? Absolutely not. Paying for availability guarantees response and production.

You said you disagree with the double standard of federal Govt paying cooperators more than their own FF's. CALFIRE too pays cooperators more than their own firefighters during incidents where the CFAA is utilized. If this did not occur, then we would just be a collection of single agencies unwilling to come together for the greater good of the taxpayers we serve. Sometimes it hurts, but that's the way it is.

The Federal type 1 and 2 teams in Ca are on average 30-60% LOCAL Govt employees by choice of the Federal agency.
In the last paragraph of your statement, you do not like to see Federal FF's in cow fields when locals are in motels on the Federal dime. It has been proven that in most cases, it is just as expensive to house FF's in a climate controlled tent in fire camp, provide showers, and laundry, as it is to put them in motels.

I guess in a nutshell, you don't like the costs that are spent on fires due to salaries and benefits of the cooperators because there is no cost containment process, but support increase in cost due to Federal FF's getting comparable salaries?

Don't get me wrong either, I support the increase in wages and benefits, but ya can't have it both ways.

Firedog

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/federallandmap.pdf (305 K pdf file)

Lobotomy

"According to NRI statistics, the total land and water surface area of the state is 101,510,200 acres. The Federal government owns about 46% of the state (46,633,400 acres). Federal landowners include the US Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, the military, and the US Department of Energy. Individuals and private corporations; city, county, or state governments; and Indian Tribes own the remainder of the land in California." (National Resources Inventory, State of California, 2000)

"California has 39.7 million acres of forest land, which covers 39.8 percent of the state's total land area." (Shih, CA Fire Resource and Assessment Program, 1998).

"National Forests hold 45 percent (17,872,000 acres) of the forest land in California. Other public owners manage 13 percent (5,054,000 acres), forest industry owns 11 percent (4,477,000 acres), and other private owners hold the remaining 31 percent (12,280,000 acres)." (Shih, CA Fire Resource and Assessment Program, 1998).

The Pacific Southwest Region (Region 5, California) employs approx. 40% of all federal wildland firefighters in the country (Forestry and Range Technicians, all federal land management agencies). (OPM, FedScope, 2007).

Lobotomy

Do you have a similar breakdown of lands and acreage for other regions (or states) plus national figures? Perhaps the line officers in charge nationally are mis-assessing the situation due to the fact they're not firsthand experienced with California FS. No excuse for Harbour, except me'be that he's promoted to a place between a rock and a hard spot and finds himself entrapped. His choice. He should still man up and lead. Ab.

Ab, thanks, I agree with you.

Casey, nicely done, but think on this everyone.
The mission of the Forest Service does not include protecting life and property per se (Protecting the land and serving people), as CalFire's mission does. More or less we protect only to keep fire from entering our national forests, which I think are 1/8 the landmass in CA (or correct me). I believe CALFIRE's mission statement actually says "protecting assets at risk which INCLUDE life and property." I suggest that what it costs to do that is relative, especially when you're talking million to multi-million dollar assets in SoCal for even simple structures. That's not to say we (FS firefighters) should get paid less, but to frame the issue from a different perspective and make it more local. It's like the costs of calfire using the DC10 are relative when you factor in the homes it will protect.

Part of the problem here is that the FS serves all National Forests and FS firefighters in Cali get the shaft because 1) of the large acreage in national forests we have, 2) it burns regularly, 3) that we have to live here to do our jobs, 4) living here is very expensive and 5) there's currently no way to factor that into pay... or ways that exist theoretically are not being used.

Some (mostly those who have retired or got their careers in before living in particular places became too expensive; I got mine, I'm a taxpayer, now screw the rest, screw the FS too... and everyone else, quit whining) have suggested we move elsewhere to work for the FS. Those of us that have aging parents here can't do that. Besides what would it accomplish for the FS if we all did? That's like saying the FS should abandon the American forests held in p[ublic trust in the states that are too expensive. (Expensive states also contribute hugely to the GNP.)

So many FS FF are leaving to other agencies and essentially abandoning the forests in the states that are too expensive. Now, who does that benefit? The country?

OK, I'm done...

Tahoe Terrie, proud FWFSA member

Hero performed by Michael Israel in New York
www.youtube.com/v/QZFkZiwMLZ4
(If you want small screen, click the You Tube icon in the lower right corner.)

My thanks to this community. Thanks to Jim Paxon who sent this round-robin and it got
sent to me. If we live our lives with integrity and love each other, I believe we're all heroes.
In his note he said "Make sure the sound is turned up."

Mellie (who also wishes for peace on a daily basis...)

Fire Acronyms Page

Still Out There as an AD

IN the last century, a greater proportion of Southern California has burned than that of any other part of the country. Chaparral shrublands - not forest - cover much of our landscape and account for the vast majority of what burns. The United States Forest Service, which devotes more than half of its budget to fire-related activities, spends most of that money to protect residences built in these shrublands.

Yet we have just seen, for the second time in less than a decade, wind-driven fires causing at least $1 billion in damage. The magnitude of these events makes it clear that it is time to re-evaluate the wildfire problem and how we deal with it as a matter of public policy.

There is much confusion over the causes and behavior of these fires. Some people contend that fire suppression is itself responsible for the catastrophic events, because it has allowed for an unnatural accumulation of flammable vegetation. But while it's true that fire suppression has affected fire behavior and intensity in many forests, it is not true of the chaparral that constitutes much of Southern California's undeveloped land, and more than 95 percent of what burned last week.

Fire suppression over the past century has failed to eliminate fire on these landscapes. In fact, recent estimates from the Forest Service suggest that most of the area has burned more often in the past hundred years than in the centuries before that. So it's not as if we have allowed more flammable vegetation to accumulate than when nature alone was in charge.

In any case, fires pushed by strong Santa Ana winds are only weakly affected by the amount of fuel in their path. This is evident from last week's fires, which consumed more than 60,000 acres of the same landscape in San Diego County that burned in the 2003 inferno.

In other words, even the extensive burning just four years ago did little to stop the recent fires. In addition to being inaccurate, the theory that fire suppression is responsible for large destructive wildfires is outright dangerous. It casts blame on firefighters and even suggests that we stop suppressing fires on these shrublands, even though they are home to a large population. And it shifts our focus away from real solutions, which are tied to local land planning and development patterns.

Large, high-intensity wildfires are a natural feature of the Southern California landscape, and we have limited ability to stop those that begin during the autumn Santa Ana winds. The best we can do is alter our behavior in ways that limit our vulnerability.

There is no one simple way to reduce fire risk, but we can learn many strategies by examining not only where houses have burned but also where they did not. It makes sense to begin by restricting the location and design of new housing developments, requiring the use of fire-resistant building materials and maintaining "defensible" space around houses. Greater use of parks and other open recreational areas on the periphery of neighborhoods that abut undeveloped lands can also contribute greatly to protecting communities from fire.

Downed power lines are responsible for igniting some of the recent large fires as well as previous catastrophic ones. Running power lines underground is expensive, but would be a worthwhile investment given the high cost of fighting fires and the billions of dollars in losses that fires cause.

Most fires in Southern California begin on roads, often when car fires ignite vegetation or when cigarettes are carelessly discarded. Low cinderblock walls built along fire-prone stretches of highways - similar to those that are used along freeways as sound barriers in cities - would greatly limit the spread of fire. And given that many fires result from sparks produced by construction equipment like welders, chain saws, mowers and chippers, it would be useful to limit these activities during the Santa Ana winds.

Trying to eradicate all chaparral wildfires in Southern California will continue to be futile. With the population expected to double in the next 40 years, we can expect fires to only increase. We should think of them as we think of earthquakes: we can't stop them, so we must accept them as a natural hazard and figure out how to withstand them.

C. J. Fotheringham is a doctoral candidate, Jon E. Keeley is an adjunct professor and Philip W. Rundel is a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Here's the updated info on Forest Service TRANSFORMATION.

transformation_110907.doc (55K)
All_Empl._Ltr._Encl_Matrix.10_5_07.doc (45K)

<noname>

This came to me from an old retired wild land firefighter. He told me to
share with all of us. I like it myself.

Normbc9

An Old Wild land Fire Fighters Prayer

Let me lace up my boots one more time
and join my brothers and sisters on the line.
Another opportunity to work with the best
too young to stop… not old enough to rest.

Restore my eyesight and fix my knees
give me the energy to do as I please.
A fire assignment somewhere out west,
One more fire… one last quest.

Place me with friends from the past
Sign me up ...I promise I’ll last.
Grinning and grunting bent to the task
one last challenge is all that I ask.

Alongside of Mac, Ranger and young Blue
Flinging dirt and laughing… My lord what a crew!
C’mon just bend the rules for a shift or two
put me in the line-up… let me go against the flame.
One last inning … one last game.

Let me lace my boots up one more time
and join my brothers and sisters on the line.
give me another opportunity to work with the best
my last wish … my last request

Oliver …Counting the days

Glad to see that's making the rounds. Oliver does have a fine way with words. He contributed that here in 2005.
Oliver, hope you're enjoying retirement. If anyone else wants to contribute to this thread www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/jomt.htm, we welcome contributions. Maybe I'll have to make a place for those on the Hotlist. Ab.

A recent article in the Riverside Press Enterprise newspaper quoting you.
You can dislike CALFIRE in private, but please don't do it in public. I thought we were all in this together. Although some of the information was inaccurate, the reporter quoted you and relished in the fact that we are eating our own!

Firedog

Spending Questioned

But some of Cal Fire's firefighting colleagues raise questions about the spending.

Higher salaries for state firefighters have lured away many federal firefighters, said Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association.

At the same time, he said, federal payments to Cal Fire -- $161 million in the past five years -- leave less money to raise the pay of federal firefighters who protect national forests in areas such as Idyllwild and Lake Arrowhead.
"It's a huge disparity," Judd said. "One of the concerns we have is that there's not much incentive to rein in costs."

Click PE_News_Local_D_calfire09.36fd462.html for the whole article. Ab.

Funny you should play the food stamp/welfare card in you post. Why? Because when I first started my career with the Feds, my spouse enrolled, and was accepted, into the WIC program for milk and other dairy products. Our income was that low. She collected Cheerios box tops in order for the family to afford a trip to the east coast for Christmas to visit relatives. Resourceful she was, but you'd would think that as professionals in our field, that the WIC, etc could have been avoided. Like Casey recommended, send your stuff to Kimball and, if you're in CA, to Feinstein. I do not trust politicians, but it may be worth the effort.. Good luck

P

A few things I do know from my limited study of China and Chinese. The
two countries are VERY similar.

• The US and China both think they are the best on the planet. After all,
  the Chinese word for China is "zhong gou" or "middle country" (middle
  earth?), the center of the planet.
• The US and China both have migrant workers, usually paid much lower wages
  and outside "the system". In China the migration is similar to the US, but
  it is an emigration from the countryside to the city. Even the official
  wage for "migrant workers" is 1/3 of that for city dwellers. In both
  countries, migrants are defacto second class.
• both countries have civil service systems "based on merit". In China,
  the higher you score on the entrance exams, the better college you get
  into. The best college grads usually get the best jobs in China and the
  US.
• China's use of resources will soon rival the US. They are currently
  buying up raw materials world wide.

A few differences?

• 300,000 students come from China to the US each year, mostly to study
  advanced degrees. 60,000 students from the US go to China each year,
  mostly to study Mandarin.
• China will need another planet in resources to fuel their growth in the
  next 20 years. For example: www.iags.org/china.htm
  states China's increased use of oil is seven times faster than the US and
  growing by 7.5% a year (by 150% by 2020). [It grew by 20% in about 2004
  alone].
• I've heard various statistics, but www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html
  states China "is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants . . . in the next
  eight years. India could add 213 . . . the US, 72".
  
  The effects? Global warming or global cooling from the dust cloud. Who
  knows. One thing is certain. Things will change. This addition will
  cancel out any savings from the Kyoto agreement by 2-5 times.

As for firefighter pay and China, I'll research it and get back to you.

Ecologist.

It was very frightening afternoon and I was later told that the blackout was
caused by a major fire in Canada.

Can you provide me with any information to support that this was caused by
Canadian forest fires??

Thank you for any info or knowledge you have regarding this period.

Have a great day!!!
BJ Fornadley

I just came across this report of prior July and want my two cents placed.

Its been twenty six years since Zane Smith and Max Peterson detonated the Bernardi Consent Decree time bomb, demanding that 43% of the workforce in Region 5 be female. Contrary to popular thought, court records reveal Judge Samuel Conti never requested, nor certified what was essentially a Forest Service order. (It was never a court order.)

By 1993 the 43% quota had spread to every other region, making the Forest Service the most matronly agency in the nation. Please see Dale Robertson's "Blue Book."

This was despite the fact FS was acting in direct violation of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, several sections of the 1991 Civil Rights Act, as well as multiple sections of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978.

Nothing has changed since the 1980s; thus, small wonder Dan Berman reports that Forest Service employees are confused about the future direction of their agency. The 400 employees interviewed by “Dialogos (who charged the Service $987,000 for uncovering the same problems agency mavens knew existed for a quarter of a century -- money much better spent on the ground) reported, “The agency is experiencing confusion and drift in its central identity and direction and ambiguity in the way it allocates power and responsibility.”

Was there anything in that statement at variance with the terrible events the agency has inflicted on itself over the past twenty five years?

Dialogos states that fire related costs are now accounting for nearly half the Forest Service annual budget. Agency workers “described fire fighting as a burden and said it is unfair the Forest Service has to fight fires for other federal and state agencies.”

Well, to the lace curtain post-moderns, firefighting is more than a “burden”; in fact it is down right dangerous. Which is why special people who meet the rugged physical and psychological standards prerequisite to fighting fires are so badly needed. They may get thirsty, hungry, tired, exhausted, injured, and at times frightened, but they never think of firefighting as a “burden.”

Another of Dialogos’ findings suggests the inquisitions, if not the purges of the 1980s and 90s remain at full throttle. “Even if they know their mission, employees said the agency’s culture is not welcoming, as they fear ridicule or punishment for raising unpopular topics or questioning superiors. ‘Individuals that raise difficult issues can be accused of being negative and subsequently feel their input is not welcome. They may even be ejected from the system. Employees do not feel safe to speak up with such a climate, adding to the perception of suppression.’”

Questioning the guiding principle behind promoting large numbers of women into positions they knew nothing about always brought suppression to Forest Service employees. So did questioning the promotion a women to fire management officer over a man with many more years experience. Questioning the long held, very expensive agency principle of “creating non essential urban office positions are far more important than filling on-the-ground positions in the forests" brought mountains of suppression.

(What Chief Kimball should now be doing is vacuuming the cash out of the Washington Office, and those urban caves known as regional offices, closing them down and hand carrying all [urban employees included] to the forests themselves.)

And Heavens, don’t question the near exclusion of men from forest personnel departments, or the efficacy of transferring minority employees from urban environments into the forests of Oregon, knowing full well they will not remain more than a month. All the while the F.S. literally gives local youths a boot in the teeth. Remarking on any of the above has left many employees not only suppressed, but literally mashed.

I digress: at one point in her interview Gail Kimball called into question the Forest Service’s once vaunted “mindset of can-do,” that quality that fell so naturally into place under the stewardship of Pinchot, Graves, Silcox and McArdle. Said Kimball, “[the mindset of can do] is diluting our effectiveness, overtaxing our workforce, and contributing directly to casualties.”

The "can do mindset" she is referring to once led to the thinning of slash, thinning of timber stands, the clearing of fire lines, controlled burns, reforestation on a massive scale, and maintenance of back country trails.

More than any Chief before, this mediocrity has an obsession with safety, which she is certain will reduce casualties and minimize the loss of timber and structures to fire. Dozens more initiatives are pouring out of her Washington Office that in no way relate to the skeleton staff on the ground.

There is also her mantra “enhance diversity workforce and visitors.” As if a thousand fortunes had not already been thrown to the winds of diversity, while thousands upon thousands of invaluable male professionals of wrong skin color were told to hit the road.

The single amusing moment within the entire Dialogos Report was Kimball's use of Einstein’s famous quote: “Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.” With every intention of following in the footsteps of her failed predecessors, there is good reason to suspect Kimball has lost her sanity.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris, This Ab thinks that at some point we all need to get over the gender thing and just fight fire...

Leaving for Cal Fire or staying green because you like the opportunities. It all comes down to life priorities. However it's pathetic, sick and disgusting that a federal agency would allow a Federal Wildland Firefighter to make an income below the poverty line. A recent new hire told me he's not signing up for federal health benefits because he can't afford the federal premium for coverage for him and his wife and that Medi Cal (welfare) will take care of his kids because he makes only 12.00 freaking bucks an hour. I hear many of our federal brother and sister firefighters do the same thing, including receiving food stamps. These people risk their freaking lives and are heroes to the American people, and are faced with the indignity of walking in a doctor's office or grocery store using welfare to survive. It makes me sick to even think about what this agency does to its Firefighters. It makes me sick that proper compensation for Federal Firefighters is not on the agenda of every BOD, FLT, RLT or any meeting with leadership. I tell any Apprentice that asks: if you can't make it on our slave labor wages (do we live in China?), then work hard, get good references and apply to an agency that will pay you above the poverty level.

I support everyone that leaves, because I know most of them in their heart don't want to go, but can't afford to stay. Soak up all our training, soak up all the experience and then go to a real agency that will treat you properly. You have the support of the majority of the fed readers of this forum. All I ask when you're gone is to not forget the agency that put you through that Apprenticeship program and gave you all that training and experience. Help those that stayed behind by helping us keep up the fight.

One more favor please. Come Nov 2008, VOTE! VOTE for the group of candidates that will help Federal Firefighters get out of poverty.

Pathetic!

ms

The hotlist has extremely fine search capabilities for words longer than 3 letters. If you ever need to find these for tailgate sessions or training, they should be easy to find. We do this for every accident, near miss, etc that comes to our attention or that we discover on searches of our own. In addition to being posted in the Hotlist's Major Fires/Incidents section, we also keep them in a private database. Here are the most recent:

CalFire Blue Sheet, Green Sheet and medical updates
CA-MVU-E-3387 Burnover on Harris Fire

CalFire Blue Sheet, ORC 24 Hour Report; flash pictures with commo from the LA Times Photographer, etc
CA-ORC-Santiago Fire shelter deployment

CalFire Blue Sheet
Vehicle Accident: Vehicle versus Fire Fighter II Paramedic

The public may not be able to point to a green truck or shot crew and say, there are Forest Service firefighters, but I am convinced that the public thinks about the Forest Service and its mission. "Rangers" are supposed to fight forest fires and protect Bambi, and fires are bad (Smokey told em so!). Unless they've been listening to environmentalists, in which case fires are good and we should just let them burn. After all, Yellowstone proves it.

There's also a strong sense (especially among those living in those east coast cities others have mentioned) that we should all have "wilderness" to go to, and we'll get there someday. When the Tongass was working on its Land Management Plan, it received comment letters from all 50 states, often from folks who had never been to Alaska, and have no definite plans to go. They just want to know it's there so someday ...

There's a lot of myth in this, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. Often the agency has failed to recognize how essential it is to deal with perceptions. I think it is the nature of folks with green blood to want to speak in terms of studies, stats, and so forth, and miss that the public isn't necessarily asking the questions that are answered by those facts. Unfortunately, great numbers of people can convince Congress that their perceptions make a difference on in Washington.

Still Out there as an AD

I have spent holidays in the Medford NJ area with aging relatives from time to time
including during fire season, also lived and did med research in NYC and near Philly.
The East is the world of big cities, summer rains and, except for the NJ Pine Barrens,
very little wildfire awareness. 90% of people live in large cities. Your point is well taken.
I will think on your solution. I'd still really like to hear the FS's solution. Maybe they
have something similar in mind and with NIMO teams.

Umm. Where will the IMT members or the NIMO Command and General Staff team
members come from when the current ones retire? It's like inoculation of a population
against disease (in a way), you need to have a critical mass of participants for the
system to work and to be sustainable...

Mellie

After spending 30 years in A&FM, now retired, it appears that nothing has changed for the entry level folks and the infamous Forestry Tech pay scale. I was appalled when my son told me, after his second season, that he was making a meager $12.60/hour fighting wildland fire. Remember back in the early 70's when the pay was pennies? The FS and BLM haven't progressed since then, financially speaking. Unfortunately, he is looking to jump ship to CALFIRE and bag the Apprenticeship academy. I told him "your family has always been the USFS, but you do what you must in order to survive financially". I brought this up because we have, and will, loose more quality firefighters to other agencies that pay their people for the dangerous and unforgiving job that they do. Wake up D.C. and OPM ! And you continue to wonder, WHY???? Sad state of affairs for all that risk their lives, detach themselves from their families for extended periods, and get a "dollar - $2.98" (Sandborg quote) for their services........

P

It's blowing on the winds that CalFire is down some 600 employees and will be hiring from the fed ranks again. People in CA will be choosing for their careers and their families. Sad but true if your blood runs green. Carry on. Ab.

The process of Forest Service "Transformation" has been going on for a while, for example with the changes in Finance and IT and Maintenance (done with Congressionally-allocated fire funds, by the way) and with FS Functions being forced to compete with the "private sector" in A-76 studies. I think the "metaphor of FS change" began to take root among Rangers and Forest Leadership Teams at the Pulaski Conference (which, ironically, was fire-inspired and grew out of the SoCal firestorms of 2003). Since then there have been a number of meetings focusing on the development of "Principles" and "Doctrine", similar in function to Commander's Intent, Leadership and Situational Awareness discussions in fire circles here. Some may not realize it, but there have been two processes involving Doctrine that have been going on simultaneously: one in Fire and one in the FS Natural Resources Organization.

I thought the Forest Service "Transformation" process might be described on a FS webpage somewhere, just as Fire has many websites dedicated to Doctrinal Change. Where we are in the "FS Organizational Transformation Process" is Stage 2 Tier 3, I think. I googled such things as --  organization transformation "Forest Service" and couldn't find a fs.fed.us page describing it, with stages and tiers. Perhaps on the FS Intranet? I'd like to see the plan clearly explained from top to bottom. It is going on; that's evident at this blog:  Transforming the Forest Service.

It also seems clear by FS Agency actions that the "Transformation" is proceeding. Clues abound: there are buyout and early out retirement packages that are being offered to hasten the departure of the most experienced FS employees, for example... (How will that exodus affect natural resources management, let alone fire management?)

I know I don't have an understanding of the whole story yet; I hope someone who knows facts will share and point us toward some good web material or formal documents describing the process. This stuff always fascinates me.

I have one thought in all this... What does the American Public think and want?

The Forest Service still views itself as a Land Management Organization, but TIMBER is no longer harvested to help fund some of the land management functions as it did in days of yore, like fuel reduction.

• Timber no longer funds the Fire or Natural Resource Management Functions.
• Because of that, moneys now need to be allocated for both Natural Resources Management and Fire.
• 51-54% of the FS budget now comes for fire, but it's not all used for fire preparedness.
• Even though Fire is King, Natural Resources officers (Forest Leadership, Line Officers, "ologists" (and I am one)) control the money and control Fire in the same organizational structure that existed when Timber Was King.
• It doesn't make sense. Perhaps the two functions need to be separated into two independent functions... The agency's decisionmaking organization is comprised of Natural Resource Management officers and is no longer conducive for Fire.

OK, let's explore...

One way to fix this is to turn the current fire responsibility of "Natural Resources Line Officers" over to "Fire Management Officers" with a "Chief FMO" in Washington... This would be a Fire Branch Forest Service Organization that is separate from the Land Management Branch Organization of the Forest Service. The Land Management Branch could hire the Fire Branch for fuels reduction. (The DOI could pay too. They don't now.) Each FS "branch" would have autonomy of program and budget based on their own needs and professional expertise. It would disentangle the intertwined structure, function and funding snafu that currently exists.

How can the costs of fire suppression be controlled if you have to rely on non federal entities to control costs??? I don't think it can be done!

More...

If FS Fire's infrastructure is strengthened, there are resources for Initial Attack, and the costs associated with over-reliance on non-fed entities for large fire suppression can be decreased. At the same time, there will be a pool of trained and experienced firefighters coming up through the ranks that will be able to implement Doctrine from a knowledge and experience base to keep themselves and all of us safe. They'll be the next generation of wisdom: the supts, the Incident Management Team members and Commanders that currently manage a variety of emergencies from fire to hurricane to tornado.

Has anyone asked lately:
How does the Public see the Forest Service and what does the American taxpayer want the Forest Service to do? Congress will do the Public's bidding.

If Congress doesn't do anything, we will loose the fire program. At that time the nation will be forced to spend a staggering amount of money to do what has been and has become Land Management's responsibility.

I don't think we can put the issues genie back in the bottle unless the 2 functions -- NR Management and Fire -- are separate and autonomous... Ask the American Public...

Mellie

PHOTO OF FIREFIGHTERS with Pres

Did it. I'm adding it to the hotlist... Ab.

Sting brings up an important point that needs to be made very clear to
politicians and the public. Just because you have lot's of resources,
doesn't mean they can be utilized in all operational environments
efficiently. In my experiences as a DIVS and ICT3, there have agency
modules (crews, engines, helitack, etc.) that I would take anywhere,
anytime. And agency modules that I would send home or leave in "staging"
rather than risk lives (and paperwork.) Same for contract crews, some I
would trust in the worst situation, others I would get rid of as fast as
possible. The very generic typing we have of personnel and modules can mask
the capabilities (or lack of) these resources. As we all know, if you have
positive fireline experience with someone, and they are bringing in a crew
or module, you are usually way ahead in knowing how you can deploy them,
the level of trust you can have in them, and your overall comfort level.

Sign me "R1 Fireman" Thanks.

If anyone has intel on how the country is going to be divided up, would they
please let us know. Is this a done deal like the stovepiping of finance to
Albuquerque? This could have serious impacts on local firefighting
agreements,

Tahoe Terrie

ref post Portage Pulaski wrote on the hotlist forum www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2318 He/She said,

I hope someone tells the legislators that FS regions will be combined in the very near future. In our area that might not have much impact, but in high WUI states across the west that burn it could be a cluster for the residents.

• Has anyone approached the LA Times and Karen Tapia-Andersen about being able to get and use the photo slide show for training? Perhaps additional photos as well? I think these could generate terrific discussions at all levels about what went right on this incident. Also, I'm not aware of any set of photos, other than these, that shows before, during, and after a deployment.
• We are beginning to gain some experience with the new fire shelters. How have they performed?
• This is a trickier one for me because I don't have experience on a wildland engine. But due to the tragedy last year, and this Santiago incident, I am wondering if there might need to be an adjustment to (or perhaps a re-emphasis of) our safety guidelines when working from an engine as opposed to your more traditional crew deployment? It seems that  the patrolling and stopping and quick hitting a problem scenario is inherently different from going in somewhere to grub out line for a fair length of time where you can become more familiar with your environment, escape routes and so forth. A road, or the black, are fairly easy assumptions to make for escape routes or safety zones, but they don't always work. (Of course there's cross-over between both types of firefighting, especially on initial attack, but this might be easier to discuss with clear, although perhaps artificial, distinctions.)

from the Sahara Race:
first day
Ken and Camel

at LAX homecoming:
Ken, Lori's promised choco chip cookies and Melissa (WFF- "bike girl")
Ken and fire flying partner Mike

She was at LAX with a group of Ken Perry welcomers: Wendy (Ken's wife), Paula and Ian Perry, Connor & Sean (his brother and family), Beth and Mike Lynn (his BLM flying partner and his wife). All got to wear red and white t-shirts celebrating the event, and there was a welcome home banner. When Ken walked down the jet-way they created a scene, hollering, whooo whoo-ing, and whistling. Turned a lot of heads. They had a "coldie" and heard a few stories at a little LAX airport oasis. No sand, palm trees or camels. Ken is in good spirits, relaxed, sporting a goatee. Laurie, Ken and Melissa Check out the MEDAL and Ken's smile.

Promises of more race pictures later. Stay tuned.

Ab.

You're almost right. This photo was taken looking into 40" dbh tree that had burned out.  It was taken with just a Bushnell outdoor camera with 3.2 mega pixels. My wife made the comment that it looked like the entrance to hell or some beast opening its mouth.

Jim

Yesterday our sister was moved from the ICU to the 5th floor. This morning she was alert, talking and even took a little walk. She needs lots of rest and time to heal, but it seems the most difficult part of her recovery has past.

Last night one of our folks went in for a little surgery on his hands. All went well and he is resting comfortably today. We think this will be his last surgery and that his release home will be soon.

Yesterday was a great day for one of our brothers, he got to go home! The doctors took a look at him in the morning, and by the afternoon he and his family were packed up and out of the hospital. One down, three to go.

Yesterday there was a very successful fund raiser held to benefit our injured firefighters. The fund raiser was sponsored by Chris Lord, a "housewife" as she calls herself from the city of Escondido. Chris contacted Mike Lopez with the her idea, set the wheels in motion and saw the event through. We want to thank Chris for her exceptional efforts on behalf of our folks. Many thanks also to all those who donated.

Finally, lets all keep our brother who remains in the ICU our thoughts and prayers. He is making progress, albeit slow. We continue keep close tabs on him and his family and look forward to the day when he too will join us on the 5th floor.

Mike Vogt
Firefighter and Family Liaison

High Lonesome

Well put and articulate.
When you're called, you respond to the request that you are given...not
the one that comes later on and you aren't there to receive it.

Many of the Aviation Qualified individuals do indeed hold multi-functional
certifications in various positions in the ICS system.

There are times when an incident grows in scope that some personnel are
switched from their original assignment to staff another type of need.

Just as we move hard resources (Engines, Dozers, Fire Crews, MKUs,
etc., etc) around, so do we move or reallocate individual resources
(Helitack/Air Attack personnel) to other locations and assignments.

It also often takes a good amount of time to move individuals to aircraft
pickup points...you know how it is trying to drive around all those darn
Fire Engines, Dozer Units and Fire Crews traveling south hour after
hour after hour !!!

COPTER 100

Some extremely sad news. Matt Mathes was a fine person, had integrity;
I am in shock and wish this was not true... What a great loss for all of us!

Please, love and support those around you!

Mellie

www.timesheraldonline.com/ci_7384299

American Canyon man allegedly kills wife, dogs, self
Police look into apparent murder-suicide involving Forest Service spokesman
By Rachel Raskin-Zrihen/Times-Herald staff writer
Article Launched: 11/06/2007 07:02:00 AM PST

AMERICAN CANYON - A longtime, well-known U.S. Forest Service spokesman apparently killed his wife and two dogs before killing himself on Saturday, police said Monday.

American Canyon police are investigating the apparent murder-suicide of Wallace Erskine Mathes III, 54, his wife, Karen Pang Mathes, and the couple's two dogs, a police spokesman said. All were found dead in their American Canyon home early Saturday morning, said American Canyon Police Sgt. Craig Nickles.

Mathes worked for nearly 20 years as a U.S. Forest Service spokesman, stationed on Mare Island, said co-worker Jason Kirchner.

"He was a great guy. Great to work with. He was the voice of the forest service for more than 17 years in California," Kirchner said. "You couldn't find anyone more steady than Mat."

The deaths occurred on the 600 block of Chaucer Lane near Crawford Way, Nickels said.

Police received a call from the home at 6:17 a.m., in which the male caller told the dispatcher that his wife was sick and that she wanted to die, Nickles said.

"He told the dispatcher he was going to kill her, the dogs and himself," Nickles said.

American Canyon Police and Napa County Sheriff's deputies arrived at the home moments later, he said. After
failing to get a response from inside the house, officers entered and (click the link at the top)

I wondered about that one, too, and whether it was just fire in a stump or something... Ab.

JIM FELIX AND SUPPLY CACHE ROCK!!!
Made it to $20,000.00 thanks to their donation.

All I can say is Pay Up and Pay More!!

Be Safe
Strawberry

I can't say enough good about Jim Felix and his wife. They're a model of selfless giving for all of us.

There's still time to follow their lead: donate ! Ab.

In reference to your comments regarding Cal Fires' Military Helicopter Program, staffing, availability of copters in the north, etc:

On Oct. 21 (last day of my vacation) my cell phone started ringing with a half dozen different assignments and orders. The last one I received was for a Military Helicopter Manager. That was at 8PM Sunday. I live in far Northern CA. I was at Los Alamitos with one other manager and ready to fly with the Firehawk (tanked aircraft) and a Blackhawk with bucket by 3 PM Monday. Sacramento ECC and South Ops were notified of the copters status. We were told that there were no outstanding orders at that time. By 0800 Tuesday a total of 4 military Blackhawks were available and eventually assigned to the Witch Fire in MVU. Within a couple of days a total of 11 National guard Blackhawks and Chinooks were staffed and ready to go.

As far as the comment goes regarding having to find "alternate spotters" is totally inaccurate. All current and qualified Cal Fire Military Helicopter Managers are maintained on a statewide list. Just like most fire folks we all have a dozen or better ICS quals in addition to our regular assignments (Engines, Helitack, Air Attack, Handcrews, etc). Most of our managers were already busy filling a variety of positions and assignments. We were able to get some of those Manager qualified folks relieved so they could manage a Military helicopter. There is always some reflex time associated with that. There are no "primary staff" or secondary staff. One list, that's it.

You stated that on the second day your type 2 copters flew all day. Would this have been Monday the 22nd? If so, with the wind and gust spreads I witnessed, I would have to question the effectiveness of any drops.

I don't think the insinuation of the purse strings were being held too tight is an accurate statement either. I saw the following CAL FIRE copters within a day or two all working, all assigned to fires: 101, 102, 202, 205, 404, 406. I know the others were assigned although I didn't see them. I think the ordering and prioritizing system was overwhelmed. It took a little while to sort it out as it always does during the initial phases of several fires burning at the same time. But, as usual the folks responsible to sort out all the requests etc. did a good job. Remember "reflex time".

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just trying to provide some accurate information in a sea of speculation and assumption.

High Lonesome

This is a snap of my ankle while having tea in Cairo on Sunday.
Right now I'm having fish and chips in a pub in London. Be
back tomorrow (today).

Peace KCP
Sent from my iPhone

Owwwww. Ab.
Readers, we're only $600 shy of the $20,000 target. Anyone? Just a few more donations!

Text posted on the hotlist:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=12669#post12669

Thanks, I will add that info tomorrow... Ab.

I think the Romeo Charlie = Riverside County. There also appears
to be a CDF logo on the door if you zoom in. Just a guess.

Former Green Soldier.

I put them on the Helicopters23 photo page and the Handcrews 22 photo page. Ab.

This is a picture of the header on the Moonlight Fire in Plumas County, 2007.
A thunder cell merged with the smoke column to produce this awesome header.

JS

Nice. I put it on the Fire 35 photo page. Ab.

Thanks, I put it on the Fire 35 photo page. Ab.

RD

Thanks RD, I put it on the Engines 18 photo page. The shiny red one... Ab.

MEd

Thanks MEd. Nice action groundpounder pic. I put it on the Handcrew 22 photo page. Ab.

Now I realize fire in San Diego and Lake Arrowhead took many more structures and perhaps the risks to people were higher there. But to those who might suggest that Orange County didn't put up a good fight, I would suggest they consider the above. Air and other wildland resources could have stopped this fire at half its size when winds diminished. They simply were not available. More will come of this in coming weeks as the after-action and political process kicks in. As some of you know, 2 years ago the OC Board of Supervisors and the Sheriff (yes, the one under current federal criminal indictment), opposed a voter-rejected ballot measure that would have funded OCFA wildland resources specifically.

But from one ground-pounder to others, there has been some straight scope to consider.

For your consideration, I have included some pictures from the initial run of the fire, and an "after" photo showing the community of Modjeska Canyon from the air.

Contract County Guy

I put your Santiago Fire pics on the Fire 35 photo page. (Check the Fire 34 page for other updates as well.) Thanks for the burnover links. They/we were extremely lucky the 12 didn't perish. Ab.

NorCal Tom

Recently the FWFSA brokered several phone calls between former R5 fire program leaders and staff from Senator Feinstein’s office as well as staff from several Southern California congressional members to gain the insight of the former fire program leaders regarding California’s recent fire storms and other issues facing our federal wildland firefighters.

As a result, Senator Feinstein has called for a full scale investigation of the Forest Service fire program and has suggested she is considering holding hearings before the Senate Interior Appropriations Subcommittee of which she is Chairwoman.

Now is the time to exercise your voice as a California federal wildland firefighter or supporter thereof.

We need you to contact Senator Feinstein’s office by phone, fax or email and provide the following:

• Your name and address to verify you are a constituent
• The fact that you are a federal wildland firefighter or supporter of their issues
• You agree with the Senator that a comprehensive investigation into the Forest Service fire program and the management thereof needs to be done immediately
• You support her consideration of holding hearings on the matter before the Senate Interior Appropriations Subcommittee
• Any hearings must include the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association as the voice for the firefighters

PHONE: 202-224-3841
A receptionist will take your name & address and record the information you provide to them (see above)

FAX: 202-228-3954
Simply send a letter with the information above

E-MAIL:
Go to: http://feinstein.senate.gov
Click on: contact us
Click on: email me
And fill out the email form. Pay attention to the fields marked with asterisks. They are required to identify you as a constituent of hers.

The more people who contact her office in the coming days may make the difference in seeing some action on real changes for our firefighters.

Just a quick email to say "thank you" to everyone for their thoughts, prayers and support... this was printed in the memoriam section on Oct. 26, 2007, I wanted to share it to those that do not subscribe to the Press Enterprise... sorry it is late, but getting motivated is not a strong point this past year...

Again, Thank You all from the bottom of our hearts...

"Danny's Mom"... Gloria Najera-Ayala & family

Some nice moments of silence occurred that day at noon, from what I've heard. Ab.

Well, it really is done. We finished the last stage today, running
through the suburbs of Giza and finishing under the pyramids. Only 3
of us managed to be hit by cars (anyone that has been to Egypt knows..)

Thanks to all for the E- mails, and the donations. It was the most
difficult thing I've ever done, but very much worth it. I will be more
specific in a few days when I get home...and send some pics.

Peace, KCP
Sent from my iPhone

Good job. Ab.

UCSD has some high quality cameras on some mountain peaks in the San Diego area. One of them is on Lyon's Peak, right in the middle of the Harris Fire. News 8 looked over hours of video and made this short video of the Harris fire as seen from the Lyon's Peak camera, over a 7 day period.

www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=107344 (top left option)

I'll add it to the hotlist, too.

FF

Nice. Here's the beginning teaser, click the link to read the rest... Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neighbors call him 'hero' for saving homes in fire
By J. Harry Jones
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

November 4, 2007

Mike Smathers didn't seek publicity.

His neighbors wanted it for him.

“He saved all our homes. He was just one man. He was our hero,” Glenda Little said.

Of course, Smathers doesn't see it that way.

The 36-year-old husband and father lives northeast of Ramona at Oak Tree Ranch, a manufactured-home community off Black Canyon Road. The development was the first densely populated neighborhood to be hit by the Witch Creek fire. Smathers was there when flames crested a hill to the east around midnight on Day 1.

That Sunday had started normally for Smathers, a 13-year firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service who recently became a law enforcement officer for the agency.

He got up at 6 a.m., took his 5-year-old son, Trevor, to his parents' house in Escondido and went to work. His wife, Penny, a dispatcher for the Forest Service, was also at work. Their dog, TJ, a shepherd mix, was at home.

Smathers and his partner were working near Temecula when they were told to rush to the Witch Creek area and help deal with what was then a small fire that had started shortly after noon.

The next 12 hours are something of a blur, Smathers said. The fire was out of control, and he spent the afternoon and ... [More]

Caption: "Ken Perry covers his face during a daytime sandstorm."

Mellie

I remind everyone again that you can definitely still pledge AND you are invited
to welcome Ken home at LAX on Tuesday, November 6 at 1:10 p.m.

Good Job Ken! We are all so very proud of you!

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

I added the new stats and notes to Ken's page: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/wff-ken07/run.htm Keeping a "tradition" going. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
more info from PE.com:

Devore CA
Two partly burned bodies discovered

The partially burned bodies of two men were found near a small fire burning Saturday morning in the Devore area.

U.S. Forest Service firefighters were patrolling the area of Cajon Boulevard and Kenwood Avenue because of the increased fire danger, when they saw a dark Chevrolet Tahoe speeding away near a large plume of smoke, sheriff's spokeswoman Jodi Miller said.

Firefighters quickly doused the small fire burning brush and a pile of trash. Near the fire, authorities discovered the two bodies, Miller said.

The bodies have not been identified, and an autopsy is planned, Miller said.

Sheriff's officials are searching for the driver of the blue or black pickup with barn doors on the truck bed.

Authorities ask anyone with information to call the sheriff's homicide detail, 909-387-3589, or the anonymous hot line, 1-800-782-7463.

--John Asbury at PE.com

Normbc9

Ford announces, show your CSFA member ID to any Ford or Lincoln Mercury dealer in California and get the Ford employee "A-plan" discount during the month of November as a way of saying "thank you" to firefighters across the state of California for their tireless efforts in containing the fires.

California firefighters can simply show a valid/current badge and/or department ID card from a California-based fire department OR current California State Firefighters' Association ID card and state or Federal ID showing residency in the state of California at the time of purchase.

All California firefighters and their immediate households statewide will receive the same "A-Plan" pricing discount.

For exact details: www.csfa.net

No one answer... to reducing fire threat
By Richard W. Halsey
October 31, 2007

also printed in the San Diego Union Tribune

The vast amount of acreage burned and the tragic losses caused by the latest Southern California wildfires were not the fault of failed fire suppression policies, “overgrown” chaparral or environmental regulations.

The promotion of such simplistic explanations only complicate efforts to develop a successful strategy to help Californians adapt to one of the most fire-prone environments on Earth. We can, however, create communities that can safely coexist with large wildland fires if we have the courage and humility to objectively examine our own perceptions and listen to what science has to offer.

How to reduce fire risk is not a one-answer question. It involves multiple variables and values that can only be properly addressed by examining the entire fire environment. Fire risk reduction is a land-planning issue, not something that can accomplished by simply grinding up native wildlands in a quixotic attempt to control nature. In order of importance, the three critical factors involved in reducing community fire risk are location, building design, and appropriate defensible space.

A significant number of homes that burned in San Diego County's Witch fire had proper defensible space, but failed in placement or design. Developers had placed some of these homes at the top of canyons where wildfire heat is funneled like a blast furnace. This is inexcusable. When you put a flammable structure in a flammable corridor it's like putting a bowling pin in a bowling alley – ultimately it is going to be taken out.

Fortunately, San Diego County has two talented firefighters, Ralph Steinhoff and Ken Miller, directly involved in the land-planning process. They have helped to ensure new wildfire death-traps will no will longer be built. However, because folks retire and people forget, Steinhoff's and Miller's positions must be codified into county law. Firefighters need to have the final word in the planning approval process.

While new building codes are doing an excellent job in creating more fire-safe communities, there are still a large number of older structures designed to burn. In high fire-risk areas, these need to be immediately retrofitted. Embers can travel a mile or more and ignite a home surrounded by 300 feet of ice plant. Homes burn because they are flammable. It makes sense then to do what we can to reduce their flammability.

Did many homes burn because vegetation was too close? Yes, this is why wildland fires are called wildland fires. Stream channels provided wicks for flames to travel into communities, burning shrubs created extreme blasts of heat, and dried, flammable grass ignited large areas instantaneously. But fire will exploit the weakest link, so it is critical to not only create properly managed defensible space zones around structures, but also to make sure the structures themselves are not tinderboxes.

The social aspect surrounding the three components of the fire risk reduction equation is also vitally important. Citizens must become fire literate. This means not only understanding the fire environment in which we live, but taking personal responsibility to ensure their homes are capable of surviving a firestorm in order to protect ourselves and the firefighters we expect to help us. Every community in Southern California within the wildland/urban interface needs to establish a neighborhood “fire” watch program. Beyond encouraging everyone to do their share in creating a fire-safe environment, a cadre of able-bodied adults would be trained to stay behind to assist fire suppression efforts after other residents have been evacuated. Although certainly not without controversy, this approach has been successfully implemented in another highly fire-prone environment, Australia.

The basic facts supporting this “go early or stay” approach are simple. Early evacuations are often not possible, and there will never be enough professional firefighters to protect every structure during a large, severe firestorm. Staying behind to defend a home from fire is serious business and must not be attempted by untrained individuals. However, within properly prepared environments, such a strategy can be extremely helpful in preventing the loss of many homes.

In addition to addressing the fire-risk-reduction equation, it is vital to understand the facts about Southern California fire patterns. Large wildfires are not abnormal for the region. Fires in the late 1800s burned much more acreage than blackened in this year's blazes. While some individuals can spin a convincing argument that large chaparral fires are the result of an “unnatural” fuel build up due to past fire suppression practices, scientific research over the past 20 years does not support such opinions.

What is unnatural is the dramatic increase in fire frequency in Southern California over the past century. Nearly all fires in the region are caused by human activity. This has resulted in too much fire on the landscape rather than not enough.

Nearly two-thirds of the area burned by the 2003 Paradise fire and one-forth of the 2003 Cedar fire in San Diego County burned again during the Witch fire last week. This has set the stage for an ecological disaster in which native plant communities will no longer have the resiliency to recover. With all the “evil” brush eliminated and replaced by grassy weeds will we be any safer? Not likely. As the two-million-acre-plus grass fires in Oklahoma and Texas demonstrated in 2005-06, wind-driven flames do not need shrubs to create catastrophic firestorms. The fire that killed five U.S. Forest Service firefighters one year ago in Riverside County was started in an area filled with non-native, grassy weeds.

Are grass fires easier to control than chaparral or forest fires? Under non-extreme weather conditions yes, but the myopic focus on vegetation fails to address the entire fire risk reduction equation. Trying to rid ourselves of flammable wildlands is not a realistic solution. Vegetation re-grows quickly, be it grass or shrubbery, making the return of large, Santa Ana wind-driven fires inevitable.

Rather than attempting to fireproof the landscape, an easier and more permanent solution is to fireproof our communities. Instead of avoiding difficult questions and pointing fingers, we all need to sit down and evelop the most effective strategy to address the three basic components of the fire risk reduction equation: location, building design and appropriate defensible space.

Firefighters, scientists and advocates for the natural environment can reach common ground, but it will require all of us to step outside of ourselves for a time, consider our options, and think about the kind of world we want to create.

(Embedded image moved to file: pic03315.gif) Halsey coordinates wildland fire research through the California Chaparral Field Institute. He can be reached via e-mail: naturalist at californiachaparral.com.

The California Chaparral Institute ...the voice of the chaparral
www.californiachaparral.org

Well Done Ken!

ht

Mellie sent in the stage details and comments...

You can still pledge/donate. Job well done! Ab.

Great news! Ab.

Really awesome! Folks, still time to pledge in support of THE MAN. We're getting close to the $20,000 goal. Ab.

I looked early on (about when Melissa did) and I think the 4deserts webmaster was having trouble entering the stats or maybe started with the longest time. I was a bit concerned myself that Ken might not have made it. Luckily it wasn't so, although he's probably pretty beat up. I am very proud of him, he succeeded in achieving one of those "lifetime accomplishments" and for an excellent cause.

I agree on your assessment of the 4deserts website. It's one of the slowest loading sites I have come across and I have high speed internet. Ab.

There are serious plans to allocate federal fire suppression money to local
government in CA and to take fed fire out of suppression altogether.

mcleod

Well, that would certainly fix our nation's fire suppression cost problems. (tongue firmly in cheek) Ab.

The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center has just completed our 21st
edition of the Scratchline newsletter. This issue, based on Air Operations
on the Fireline, may be downloaded from our homepage,
www.wildfirelessons.net, or by clicking on the following link.

www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Scratchline_Issue21.pdf

Also new to the website is the link to our new Public Information Toolbox,
created by Jonetta Holt. This toolbox is a collection of templates, forms
and examples for Public Information Officers serving on Incident Management
Team Events and is offered in the spirit of encouraging each other to meet
the highest standards conceivable. Check it out on our homepage or click on
the following link.

www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/PIO_TOOLBOX_Final.doc

And lastly, Bob Mutch's report FACES: The Story of the Victims of Southern
California's 2003 Fire Siege, which is a case study of how six critical
tasks provide the foundation of a learning organization and his quest to
unearth the answers to so many questions about how these fires claimed so
many people’s lives is also located on our homepage, or at the following
link.

www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/FACES.pdf

The Lessons Learned Center appreciates your support and input!
Thanks and Take Care,
Brenna MacDowell
(For Paula Nasiatka)

The Lessons learned center has several Facilitated Learning Analysis (FLA)
documents available.

www.wildfirelessons.net

TC

Readers, that's an information-rich website. Visit often... Ab.

Sorry for sending that email multiple times this morning...
it was probably a mixture of excitement and the early
morning hour!!

Wendy

You have every right to be excited and very proud of Ken. We're excited too. Ab.

I got 3 excited emails from Wendy starting at 0340 to check Ken's Blog. Here's what he says:

That's it. I'm through
02-Nov-2007 07:35:51 AM [(GMT-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada); Tijuana]
Sahara Race (Egypt) 2007

….Except for the last 10 K on Saturday morning….. Sorry. All you folks that pledged on a per mile basis, might as well go ahead and sign those checks.

So yesterday was the long day, at 93 K (or 58 miles). It was a long, long day. I think I came in somewhere around 21 hours (or there about), which seems long except that I had to limp approximately 60 of those K’s. I seem to be sporting either a stress fracture, or an extremely nasty case of shin splints on my right leg. My shin and ankle are quite swollen, as well as Blisters, etc. It was very windy yesterday on the plateau, with steady winds of 30 or so, and gusts to, what seemed to me to be about 50 or 60. You may have already seen pictures.

We lost a few more runners on the last leg. I’m not sure how many have dropped to this point. I seem to be getting better info from the E-mails I get from the outside world, than what comes to us from RTP. We basically have the rest of Friday off, and leave for Giza on Saturday morning at about 2:00 AM for the long ride back to the start of the last stage. Then it is pizza, fruit and beer (and hopefully an ice cold Coca Cola) at the pyramids, and back to the hotel for a much, much needed shower, and maybe a little hot-tub action.

I am going to attempt to eat something, and maybe get a little bit of sleep. It’s tough due to the throbbing in my legs, shoulders, and hands.

I will hopefully get to a phone in the morning, and call Wendy. And I will post to They Said, and another site when I can.

Thank you, everyone, for the E-mails, and for your donations to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

I love you Hon. Kiss the kids for me.

My next posts should be more interesting… I promise

peace- KCP

Community, please pledge or donate now. We're at $18,254.51. It's a worthy cause! Ab.

Good morning Mellie,

I am not to sure if it is appropriate to ask, if you could get Ab to post
the announcement for the 50 year, El Cariso Hot Shot Reunion, to be
held April 12-13 2008 at Lake Elsinore, CA. I need to know by
mid December just how many may attend, so I can get the appropriate
place. I'd like to make a head count.

Thank you Mellie and Ab,
Gordon H. King
email: GKING1 (at symbol) bak.rr.com

HAW HAW, good approach, Gordon (and Mellie).
In honor of your esteemed position, Gordon, we're happy to post your El Cariso hotshot reunion notice.
All you old hotshot f*rts, give the man an email and tell him you're attending.
Look at who some of those guys are: imwtk-ic.htm
Watch out, Gordon, you help organize it too well and they may give you one of those aprons. ...Get Doug Campbell to help you. Ab.

Thanks AL, good to see the topic up here and on theysaid.

Here's how it shakes out right now, I think.

Hierarchy of Analysis/Investigation for a Learning Organization:

AAR --> FLA --> APA --> SAI

AAR: After Action Review, informally conducted in search of Lessons Learned, usually by the crew involved who provide verbal feedback to each other and going no further, as no written record is kept; not for investigative purposes but to aid crews in continuously improving themselves. Information usually does not get into the wider field.

FLA: Facilitated Learning Analysis, one of the tools for achieving a more wide-spread Lessons Learned that is based on a sandtable re-accounting of events with questions. Firefighters tell the story in a group setting and later other firefighters can be taken through the decisions and choices leading to the event. A "portal" type of experience for firefighters. Example: I believe the Nuttall Complex Incident AAR was a first try at what has become an FLA.

APA: Accident Prevention Analysis, is an accident investigation tool that promotes a learning culture; useful in promoting more widespread organizational Lessons Learned that is based on a storytelling approach using an accident narrative; to create the narrative, witnesses are interviewed by experts; their information is confidential unless it becomes clear there was "reckless and willful disregard for human safety"; the APA identifies causal latent flaws within the organization and usually results in recommendations for the agency to correct them to become a safer organization (HRO). Example: the APA of the Little Venus Incident or the Balls Canyon Incident.

SAI: Serious Accident Investigation, an investigation; has the intent of preventing future accidents and defending the organization from litigation; involves both a factual section (identifying chronologically the causal and contributing factors that led to the accident) and a management evaluation section; it's an administrative review for investigative purposes. Witness statements are taken. Can result in 1) individual consequences if there was "reckless and willful disregard for human safety" and/or 2) agency policy change. Contrast with APA (Accident Prevention Analysis).

Re: Reports & Investigations: from AAR to Serious Accident Investigation

Some information on Just Culture for people who don't know the term:

Here's a definition of just culture from James Reason in Managing the Risks of Organizational Accidents. He does not mean "no blame".

He says a Just Culture is one in which there's “an atmosphere of trust in which people are encouraged, even rewarded, for providing essential safety-related information, but in which they are also clear about where the line must be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.”

----------------

And here's what the Balls Canyon Near Miss Peer Review (actually an Accident Prevention Analysis) said about Just Culture:
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/balls-canyon/balls-cyn-review.htm

Just Culture is an organizational ethic where employees are encouraged to report errors and mistakes because of an ethical recognition that other employees and managers must learn (and then make adjustments to compensate) from normal human error. Rewards and punishments are based on the employee’s values and how he or she acted on their values. If an employee’s values are consistent with the organization’s values (with the value of human life being the core value) then their errors and mistakes should be treated as normal and ethical human error.

Traditional organizational reaction to errors often includes punishment for normal, or "honest," human error. This inevitably results in the suppression of error reporting and the collapse of a reporting culture.

The process used in this review encouraged honest and frank disclosure of mistakes. The peers involved were assured that the only outcome will be a report intended to facilitate organizational learning. This Peer Review was fashioned after an After Action Review. The questions asked to the peers involved in this very close call were intentionally similar to, but in greater depth than, After Action Review questions.

----------------

And here's the just culture website. They've revamped it:

http://www.justculture.org/

AL

Normbc9

As you mentioned on the hotlist there have been lots of accidents this season but few fatalities. I don't know how each accident could be investigated with a Serious Accident Investigation. Seems someone said some of the less serious ones would be good opportunities for other lessons learned analyses.

I've heard the terms FLA for Facilitated Learning Analysis and APA for Accident Prevention Analysis, i think like for Little Venus and another one, can't remember which one.

Is any report that is out a FLA? What does that look like?

Does anyone know the difference between these two kinds of reports? Do they have different purposes?

How do all the different kinds fit in with Reason's Swiss Cheese Model and HRO (High Reliability Organizations) and Weick and Sutcliff's ways to improve the learning environment?

I understand AAR and SAI the best first hand. What about the others? Do agencies other than feds use these too, like CALFIRE and Orange County Fire? For that matter, does any fed agency besides the Forest Service do these? If not, why not? Aren't we all trying to become a learning culture that is also a just culture?

AL

I looked on the Docs Worth Reading page and I think the second one called a "Peer Review" and now known as an APA is the Balls Canyon Review. I have not seen any Facilitated Learning Analyses. Anyone?

Was the Nuttall Fire Shelter Deployment Report a FLA? Lem'me see if I can find it.... Oh yeah, its on the Docs Worth Reading list too, as an "After Action Review" which usually doesn't have a written report. I think we're in the middle of the development and naming of these different tools. Ab.

We are on the Santiago Fire and I have a couple of interesting
observations about this one.

First off, they haven't mentioned the deployments at all in any
of the lengthy briefings...We found out about it by picking up a
newspaper a few days after we got here. There's no articles on
the bulletin boards, and nothing posted around camp. Yesterday
we heard some radio traffic about investigators wanting to
come into the fire area.

My second observation is that at briefings they are asking that
only strike teams leaders and above take an IAP... Last I
checked, all line personnel benefited from a hard copy of the
Wx and adjoining resources.

The community has been very supportive, and other than those
two items, things are going fairly well.

signed
On our toes at Cal-Trina

I am sure that the conditions are worse than you have said. I have driven through Chino and
the surrounding area many times and just driving by the feed lots and dairies can make you
GAG.

Anyone who ever had to stay in Anderson(ville) CA. staging has had similar experiences. They
made us stay 24 hours there in '87 and called it R+R. 110 degrees in a horse stall with a cot. I
am still bitter over that one.

Firefighters don't have to put up with this type of cr*p. I am sure all the CDF engines and
overhead are staying in motels. Head to one yourself and charge it to perdiem. If that does not
work call their bluff and have them send you home. Take care of your troops if OES and
FEMA won't.

Dan

(tongue firmly in cheek) Any OSHA standards for methane gas poisoning??? Ab.

Perhaps while the SoCal chiefs are working on local
pay raises, special pay and other benefits for Fire
Employees they should pass on this info to all the
North Zone chiefs and get the firefighters in North
Zone a little piece of the pie..........

Otherwise, as you'll see here in a few months, the
EXODUS to CALFIRE will continue at a blistering rate.
Not just Captains either. We're going to get stripped
when the Engineer/Firefighter list comes out.

That's the harsh reality.

Its not getting any easier to provide for your family
up here. Housing costs are high for the area, so is
fuel, so is day care, the list goes on and on.

We'll take the 30% the South Zone folks got a while
back. I'm sure a lot of folks that are leaving for
the money of CALFIRE would stick around if they got
thrown a frickin bone.

Sign me.......... Not leaving the sinking ship, yet.

Thanks, ms. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/statewide-fires103007pm.jpg

More maps are available on this hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2241

I went to the photo section and found some pictures of Ken.
He looks healthy and happy!

It's great to see him looking good - I have no doubts whatsoever
that he will finish this race! Run Ken Run!!

(Have you sent your email today?)

Lori

Click the link: www.4deserts.com/sahararace/rtpsrtp.php?SID=3&SBID=RC14 There's a dropdown menu - choose Perry, Kenneth C. and send him an email. If you live near LAX, make arrangements with Melissa at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation to welcome him home. Ab.

CNN would have a field day if they found out about the conditions at
the Chino staging area where FEMA and CA OES is making the
out-of-state firefighters stay. It is in the middle of the dairy farm area
and is a fly infested s___t hole. It stinks so bad you can't sleep at night
and there are literally thousands of flies, fresh from the piles of manure.
If this were a camp for illegal immigrants, the ACLU would have
already filed a law suit.

We saw the governor on TV praising the firefighters, then he puts them
in these deplorable conditions. Shameful!

Buzz

October 15, 2007
To: Southwest Incident Commanders, Southwest Type 2 Team Boards and Southwest Agency Representatives
From: Chair, Southwest Coordinating Group
Subject: Decision on Management of Southwest Type 2 Teams

On October 9th the SWCG made the decision to take over coordination of the Interagency Type 2 Teams in the Southwest. This decision was made after considering input from Agency Administrators, team members, boards, zone dispatch centers, national offices, and others. Based on the input, the SWCG modified the management proposal that had been originally circulated.

The proposal to bring the Interagency Type 2 Teams in the Southwest under SWCG management has been widely discussed since last spring. The case for change is summarized by the following items:

-Inconsistent or lack of active Zone or local board oversight/management.
-Increasing number of out of GACC assignments for which SWCG is responsible.
-Increased expectations related to Type 2 teams from NMAC and national offices.
-Inconsistency in Type 2 IMT adherence to National Mob Guide Standards.
-Issues related to “out of GACC” assignment oversight.
-Lack of immediate responsiveness by Type 2 team boards to issues.
-Inconsistency in: IC selection/tenure, charters, nomination process, and availability issues.
-Need to increase the pool of candidates for all SW teams.
-New applicants hesitant to apply due to “good old boy” system and perception that new folks have a difficult time breaking into SW teams.
-Direction of Secretaries of Agriculture and Interior for GACCs to manage the IMT’s.
-More prompt and responsive communications to teams from SWCG & NMAC.
-Spreading individual agency staff between teams, so that one team callout does not drain agency personnel in one area.
-Zone or board restrictions on geographic availability, and team use out of local area.
-IMT members getting “burned out” by being on call all season long, and could benefit by having
more of a rotation that allows some time off.

Under the accepted proposal the SW Type 2 teams will still be centred in their traditional “closest forces” response areas, with most members from that geographic sub-area. They will be the first team assigned to large fires in that area. The 2nd team needed in that area would be per a GACC wide Type 2 team rotation; that rotation would also be utilized for out of GACC assignments. The SWCG may consider adjustments for flexibility, as this new system develops.

Management would be cooperative between SWCG, the Ops Committee, SWCC, and the IC’s. Zone management groups may still provide advice and input to the SWCG, for example, if they need the team to be available outside their traditional season due to fuel conditions. Minimum seasons for each team will be established by SWCG.

The application form for team members will be designed to accommodate applicant’s choice to apply for several teams, by the applicant’s priority. Applicants would indicate a geographic/team preference. Agency reps would have input. The IC’s would have a major role in selection.

The SW team guidelines will be modified to include Type 2 team information including:
-Development of team cycle dates, (application, team mtg., AAR, etc.). -An annual spring SW multi-team meeting, (full initiation in 2009).
-Type 2 IC selection will be conducted by SWCG. IC’s would have 3 year tenures. Not all IC’s will
turn over in the same year.
-SWCC will house the rosters and coordinate mobilization.

The SWCG Operations Group is at work to integrate most of these tasks for the 2008 fire season. While there may be some issues to work out as we transition this winter, the SWCG realizes the critical importance of all our IMT’s to safe and effective incident management. The SWCG is dedicated to insuring the responsiveness of SW fire resources to the changing demands of the fire and social environment. If you have questions related to team issues, please direct them to the SWCG liaisons to the Operations Group, Hector Madrid (BLM – NM), or Donald Griego, (NM State), or Operations Group Chair Richard Nieto, (USFS).

Sincerely,
/s/ Bob Lineback 10-15-07
Chair, Southwest Coordinating Group