BEST WISHES TO ALL FOR A HAPPY & PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR

FROM ALL OF US AT THE FWFSA

P.S. It sucks having to wait til Wednesday to get paid when you have bills to pay and you count on those funds every other Monday.

Glad to see that someone is looking into trying to how to retain some of these
individuals ! .I only wish that they had better pay and I had a 26/0 rather than
an 18/8. That is one of the reasons I left and went to the DOD! It was great
when I was single but when I started a family that all changed! Maybe I'll get
lucky and it will all change and I can get out of this mad house and start fighting
fires again!

DOD mistake

Plum Creek's focus raises new concerns
By Michael Jamison
Missoulian

Kalispell - Not far up the road from Steve Brown's house, out west of Whitefish and just around the corner from forest burnt black by the Brush Creek fire, a quarter-mile of new road is headed off into the woods.

The short stretch will cross U.S. Forest Service land, using that public patch to connect Plum Creek Timber Co. with the rest of the world. Plum Creek has another route in, a winding six-mile twist of road used seasonally to haul logs, but the new neighbors weren't going to put up with that.

Because Plum Creek's not going to log that land anymore. Instead, the company plans on selling it as subdivided real estate parcels.

And so the Forest Service has granted a new easement to hasten access, that quick quarter-mile over public land.

"I'm baffled," Brown said. He's lived here for years, and knows the fire danger. "If the Forest Service is really all worried about wildfires, why would they grant easements that encourage more houses in the woods? I'm just wondering why, if they're as broke as they say they are, and they're spending all their money protecting houses from fire, then why would they go and do something like this?"

Because, said Lisa Timchak, the government just can't say no.

"Fire costs are huge," said Timchak, the district ranger who had to review Plum Creek's easement request. "We're becoming a skeleton of an agency. But right now, when they ask for something like this, the Forest Service doesn't have the tools to deny it. Fire costs are not part of the review criteria." (Ab note: important stuff; read on at the link)

Hundekot

Fair Use Disclaimer

It was good and very interesting, from the reduction in firefighting troops to environmental predictions from tree ring data going back thousands of years, to drought, to soil burned of all tilth back to rocky substrate. Predicted loss of 1/2 our forested lands in North America over the next 30 to 100 years... A wake up call for sure. Tom Boatner did a good job for the groundpounders. The AZ fire scientist did a great job of laying out the problems and predictions. I'd like to see it again. Ab.

Three men killed in convoy inferno
December 31, 2007 - 6:20PM
www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/12/31/1198949707028.html

Three men killed when a bushfire caught their trucks in the West Australian
Goldfields are believed to be from WA, police say.

The bodies of three people, initially believed to be two adults and a child,
were found in two burnt-out trucks on the Great Eastern Highway in a section
of Boorabbin National Park between Southern Cross and Coolgardie about
midnight.

Deputy Police Commissioner Chris Dawson said investigators had confirmed the
three were all adult men.

"I can confirm three adult males, believed to be from Western Australia,
have tragically lost their lives,'' Mr Dawson said. (more at the link)

Happy New Year to all.

Peets Coffee in Corona Del Mar Plaza in Newport Beach CA (my daughter' store) raised
$780.00 which will be matched by Peets for a total of $1560 for the Santa's Helper Fund.
Her staff donated all their tips that day to the donation jar. I don't have the totals from the
other two stores yet who raised money for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation General Fund.

Annette

Nice Job. Ab.

Haw haw, good one! Ab.

An amendment to (Proposed amendment highlighted) --

TITLE 5 > PART III > Subpart D > CHAPTER 55 > SUBCHAPTER V

§ 5545b. Pay for firefighters

(a) This section applies to an employee whose position is classified in the firefighter occupation in conformance with the GS-081 standard published by the Office of Personnel Management, or an employee whose position is designated as either a primary or secondary firefighter under 5 CFR 842.802, and whose normal work schedule, as in effect throughout the year, consists of regular tours of duty which average at least 106 hours per biweekly pay period.

> From the Forest Service: http://www.fs.fed.us/people/benefits/fers.html

FERS Firefighter - 5 CFR 842.802
Firefighter means an employee occupying a rigorous position, whose primary duties are to perform work directly connected with the control and extinguishment of fires, as provided in 5 U.S.C. 8401(14). Also included in this definition is an employee occupying a rigorous firefighter position who moves to a supervisory or administrative position and meets the conditions of Sec. 842.803(b).

FERS Secondary position - 5 CFR 842.802
(1) Is clearly in the law enforcement or firefighting field;
(2) Is in an organization having a law enforcement or firefighting mission; and
(3) Is either--
(i) Supervisory; i.e., a position whose primary duties are as a first-level supervisor of law enforcement officers or firefighters in rigorous positions; or
(ii) Administrative; i.e., an executive, managerial, technical, semiprofessional, or professional position for which experience in a rigorous law enforcement or firefighting position, or equivalent experience outside the Federal government, is a prerequisite.

Firefighter Defined - 5 USC 8401(14) http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode05/usc_sec_05_00008401----000-.html
(14) the term "firefighter" means-
(A) an employee, the duties of whose position-
(i) are primarily to perform work directly connected with the control and extinguishment of fires; and
(ii) are sufficiently rigorous that employment opportunities should be limited to young and physically vigorous individuals, as determined by the Director considering the recommendations of the employing agency; and
(B) an employee who is transferred directly to a supervisory or administrative position after performing duties described in subparagraph (A) for at least 3 years;

Note: "throughout the year" applies to either calendar year (CY), fiscal year (FY), or appointment type. The 106 hour average bi-weekly limitation may not apply to all areas, in which case, the provisions of the FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS OVERTIME PAY REFORM ACT OF 1998 may not apply to your area. In such cases, other provisions of law relating to federal firefighters would apply.

Reference:

Congressional Hearing: Tension in the Tinderbox: Finding Fairness in Federal Firefighter Compensation
Congressional Hearing: Wildland Firefighters Pay: Are There Inequities?
HR 408 Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005
HR 2963 Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2003
HR 5697 Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act of 2005
HR 2814 Federal Firefighters Pay Equity Act
HR 1116/ S 492 Firefighters Pay Fairness Act of 1997
Public Law 106-558 (S 439) "... to authorize equal overtime pay provisions for all Federal employees engaged in wildland fire suppression operations."
Wildlandfire.com Archive: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/firepay.htm

I have known Bob for 30 years, in that time Bob has been an outstanding firefighter,
manager, mentor, friend and ski partner. I sincerely offer Bob and his beautiful wife
and daughter the very best in his upcoming retirement. He has been a strong asset
to the ANF fire management program as well as R-5 as a whole. I am sure he will
be successful in what ever path he selects in the future. Congratulations on an
outstanding career. Ski ya on the slopes Bob.

Tim V

Thanks to all who answered my question. I knew someone
smarter than me had to have already thought of that airframe.

Onelick

I'm still tuned in to the network of scientists tracking avian flu infections and deaths around the world. Several weeks ago there was likely limited human-to-human infection with deaths in Pakistan. Results should be in on that outbreak soon. This is similar to the clusters of human-to-human infection in Indonesia, where the disease is also endemic in birds, cats and other mammals.

I sent in the CIDRAP (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy) summary and it's posted on the Birdflu Watchout Page.

For those who want to follow the latest breaking news on birdflu and other infectious diseases around the world, please visit flutrackers.com.

I'll let you know if things seem to be getting dicey with birdflu.

Mellie

Dear Letterman and all:

First & Foremost, the Omnibus bill "highlights" text did in fact come from Senator Feinstein. A quote from her follows at the end of this post.

Her efforts to place this language in the bill is the result of a variety of folks from fire officials off the BDF to the FWFSA to many others who took the time to educate her staff about the issues. That being said, I remind everyone that the FWFSA is committed to securing fundamental changes in pay & personnel policies for all federal wildland firefighters from all five land management agencies regardless of grade or geographic location.

The text is another in a series of steps forward that have occurred over the last year and a half or so.

The FS, after 3 years of silence finally took a position on the firefighter liability issue, supporting the expansion of reimbursement of PLI premiums. This occurred after the efforts of NFFE and the FWFSA secured the help of Sen. Domenici (R-NM) to get the issue out on the table in Senate hearings last February. As a result, language to expand the reimbursement of PLI premiums has now been signed into law. Next step... the Agency(s) covering 100% of the premium.

Again, through the collective efforts of NFFE and the FWFSA, congress inserted language into the Omnibus bill, now signed into law, "defunding" the FS outsourcing studies.

At the end of last session the House of Representatives passed the Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act. While OPM just hasn't gotten it through its head that classification is a major issue, we will continue to get that done with the help of Congress.

Retention meetings have been held in R5 after Congress sought answers to the "exodus" of federal firefighters in R5 to other fire agencies. We obviously don't know the details of those recent meetings but they were held because the Agency now recognizes they can no longer rely on the bureaucratic "smoke & mirrors" to suggest that all is fine. Too many folks are talking now.

Finally, this language in the Omnibus bill: It, as with all the other items mentioned, are steps in the right direction. That means we keep pressing until either 1) the Agency steps forward and recognizes its firefighters as the asset they are and begins to eliminate the archaic pay & personnel policies that have encumbered the firefighters for so long and works to strengthen the infrastructure, or 2) Congress does it for them.

One of the next steps is for the Agency to decide whether they want to have a fire program or not. If they do, it needs to recognize that the current organizational structure of the fire program i.e. non-fire folks making policy, is not conducive to managing a true fire department and changes must be made. The Agency also needs to recognize that its very own policies under this organizational structure is what has caused the skyrocketing costs of suppression.

So, as far as gut feelings are concerned, I don't have any. I am humbled that Congress is starting to hear the voices of these brave men & women and that means we keep our sleeves rolled up and keep up the effort until all of you get what you deserve.

Casey

Quote from Senator Feinstein:

“I worked to secure language in the Omnibus Appropriations Bill because the U.S. Forest Service is losing firefighters to other agencies in California. This is a serious problem that must be addressed, and we are working closely with the Forest Service on a long-term solution. California faces a real and growing threat from wildfires, and we must have a strong firefighting capability at all levels of government.”

"highlights" text
text on Curtailing A76 and text describing Professional Liability Insurance reimbursement (posted to theysaid 12/18)
Retention text (posted to theysaid 12/26) [scroll down to Green for Life's post on 12/27 for links to the bill itself]

Thank you Mark and
Thanks to Casey. Ab.

Bob Serrato sent this out today (yesterday). I remember first meeting Bob in the early 80's. The great thing about Bob is he hasn't changed a bit since the day I met him.

Bob is a great, outstanding Firefighter and fire management leader, but the good thing about Bob is, he is an even better person.

Thanks for your service Bob, have a great retirement.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Out of Service
Robert J. Serrato
Angeles National Forest

Farewell, I will be retiring COB January 3, 2008. I have been with this organization almost 34 years and have enjoyed 95% all of that time. Many of you know what happen to the other 5%; I won’t go there in this letter. Ha! Ha!

I have given this organization my best over the years and I’m proud of my accomplishments. It is time for me to step aside. I have been successful in filling the position behind me. Eric McCormick was offered and has accepted the DFMO position and I am certain that he will lead it to greater heights. Although I am looking forward to retirement, it is with some regret that I am leaving. I will miss my colleagues and the opportunity to see employees develop. As I reflect on the people whom I have crossed paths with, many thoughts come to mind. First and foremost is the high level of professionalism that you all maintain. I have been humbled by having the pleasure and opportunity to have known and worked with so many that I hold with the highest respect. The Forest Service has provided me the opportunity to do things and visit places that most people only dream of.

In closing, I feel deeply indebted to you all for the support, guidance, and the encouragement you have provided me during my tenure.

Please keep in touch, I can be reached at (snip) or at the following numbers; (snip). I look forward to sharing a farewell refreshment with you all on January 19, 2008 at my retirement celebration.

Sincerely, 
Robert J. Serrato

When is the best time to start thinking about your retirement?
Before your boss does!

P to P helps not one geographic area, not just one agency, but the entire federal land management workforce. P to P would go a long way to solve the recruitment and retention issues. The passage of P to P in my opinion is the single most important thing that could be done to get things back on the right track.

Until then I ask ICs everywhere to use "ordered stand-by" (used by LPF and ANF during the fire siege) within your fire camps in 2008. You have many options within your authorities and can create variations to mold for your incidents and mirror P to P pay. Work on this at your team meetings in 08. R-5 has always been known for leading change, keep the tradition alive. R-5 and other fed agency ICs within Ca, if you lead on this issue now, then years, even decades from now you will always be remembered as "The Leaders" who changed how federal emergency responders are managed and paid. Most of you ICs have very little time left in your careers. Do something in 2008 for the younger generation looking to follow in your footsteps. ICs; "Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things". You have the unique opportunity to do both in 2008.

See you Reno!

Letterman

Thanks, Green. Ab.

www.ndt.net/article/ecndt98/aero/031/031.htm

Aging aircraft issues:

Regarding the Navy grounding or potentially grounding of their P3 fleet..........

ALL of these aircraft are now coming due, due to aging aircraft issues even before Mr Tony Kern (former USFS F&AVN) type knew about these and the issues of the of the aging fleet.

To be sure, Aero Union will do its best in the NDT arena, eddy current detection, and other aging aircraft issues.

Look on their website and see what their capabilities are.  Probably will get a Navy contract for the inspections if the Navy decides to use them as a prime mover in this arena.

Now it is time for the USFS and other land mgmt agencies to come to the realization that this issue is far from over and that their up and coming fire season may be interrupted (to some degree) during 18 to 24 month inspection schedules......

Some of these aircraft are as old as the former Hawkins and Powers fleet of C130 series of aircraft......

And everyone in the fire biz saw what happened to that FAMOUS aviation company after the land management agencies pulled their "Blue Ribbon Panel".  Are they going to do it again??  Are they going to claim knowledge in all things aviation??

USFS Fire and Aviation had better be clear on this........ The Navy let the AVIATION COMMUNITY know because of their AVIATION background, not the land mgmt agencies pouring over BRPs and town hall meetings regarding the aging air fleet.

Already everyone has seen the DC-10 and its possibilities, only it probably still can't fly over Federal lands like its older brother, the DC6.

Aero Union will do its best. The land management agencies do not have much left in the 3000 gallon inventory if they go after this one as they did the C130 and the PB4Y series.............

Let's let the AVIATION pro at Aero Union and the Navy sort this out..  BUT to the land management agencies... Are you ready to bring back some iron in the event of a catastrophic fire season '08??   Better get to the boneyard at Davis Monthan and see what can be resurrected.

Just to be fair to the fixed wing community......  some of the rotary wing aircraft are coming due also as far as aging aircraft issues also.

Again coming from a forester, former wildland firefighter, A&P, and Commercial pilot.......

To the land management agencies, be very careful with this, I will state the obvious, it COSTS something including people's livelihoods and it cost something to get these issues resolved.  GET all the facts B4 you pull another BRP.

LL

Ab note:
NDT=Non Destructive Testing detects cracks or any other irregularities in the airframe, structure, landing gear, and engine components which are not visible to the naked eye.
BRP=Blue Ribbon Panel, referring in this case to the BRP on the aging C130s and PB4Ys.

On the Laguna fire in 1970 when it was making its run out of Harbison Canyon and heading into the Dehesa area, Chief’s Tom Barnes from La Mesa FD and Bill Thurber from Fallbrook saved about twenty five houses using good old Yankee ingenuity. I thought they were all going to burn; when I found Chief Barnes and told him about the problem he went back to the staging area at Gillespie Field, got the resources together and came out and those are my heroes even now.

The bigger problem with the whole situation down in San Diego County is turf and “Who is going to be in Charge.” That question is still hanging as I write this. The Chief Officer ranks of the SDFD don’t have the practical or demonstrated experience or ability to be thrust into that role, but the San Diego County fire service is loaded with some talented fire professionals who sure could help to weld that into a cohesive, functioning system.

Cal Fire is now too political to be the practical leader. They are changing Unit Chiefs too frequently for one personality to settle in and do a creditable job. What has worked well is their ability to pull smaller entities into their contract fold and make that work very well and make the utilization of resources effective. I only wish that when I worked in San Diego County that Cal Fire then had the talents they do now in the Battalion Chief ranks. Those folks are heads and above most I ever worked for.

The politicians never quit, do they? Now they want more fire engines. Who will organize and direct those additional resources? Who will fund the staffing and training? They have a hundred different ideas, none of which are practical or productive, to me, and the confusion still reigns supreme.

The solutions will be at the ballot box if the voters are truly as concerned as they are portrayed to be by the media. All the City and County government leaders are doing when they become critical of Cal Fire and the Forest Service is signal to me they are looking for scapegoats, hoping that no one comes trying to hold them accountable for their own lack of definitive action. It is they who are legally responsible and who continually refuse to take the helm and provide effective leadership, not the role of Cal Fire or the Forest Service.

Normbc9

• FS should examine Federal Firefighter pay and personnel policies and provide House
  & Senate Committees on Appropriations with a proposal to increase recruitment and
  retention for Southern California forests no later than Feb 1, 2008.

Letterman

Anyone know in what section or on what page this is located? Thanks. Ab.
Posted on 12/27: answer is here.

On a second note, there were some demo flight's at Camp Pendleton in California sometime around 1999-2000, and while the maneuverability was outstanding, many of the state and government officials walked away unimpressed. As a last note, the first hurdle to overcome should this get past where it is now, is for the government to release some for sale or lease. After 9/11, I just don't see that happening for quite some time.

Something else one needs to look at when dealing with jet engines vs. piston, is "spool up" time. In a piston engine, increased rpm's are attained more rapidly, such as post-drop throttle to regain altitude and airspeed. A jet engine takes longer to attain these critical rpm's. The basic A-10 uses a TF-34_GE-100 Turbofan powerplant. It takes roughly 6 seconds to spool to 110% vs. somewhere around 4-5 seconds for a piston engine (I used a Wright-Turbo Compound for this example). Not a big spread for the numbers, but it's a mile if your life depends on it.

Nothing wrong at all with your thoughts. That's the only way this industry is going to survive is by people dreaming up new thoughts and ideas. I hope I was able to answer your question without getting too technical.

TS

Here's something that needs to be run by the airtanker folks. With all the
airframes that are being grounded lately, has anyone thought about using the
A-10 warthog airframe as an airtanker? I was talking to my brother-in-law
during the holidays, when this subject came up. He works on the avionics on
this plane, and he said the payload capacity is around 10k pounds. Which in
my limited mental capacity, put the gallonage around 1,000 gals. Since this
plane was designed to fly slow, and low to the ground, why wouldn't it make
a good airtanker? Or is the AirTractor a better platform? Since I'm just a
groundpounder, I'm not familiar with the different airframes. Just some
food for thought. It's amazing what ideas come to your head over some cool
adult beverages.

Onelick

Ab.

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-=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=-
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From the Abs at wildlandfire.com

Praying for a safe and wonderful holiday season for all...and may 2008
be a better year for us all!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Tom Stein

"I'm Dreaming" (swf file)
Click "Play" in the middle.

To further get in the snow mood... if you have DSL or highspeed internet

Let It Snow.pps (2627K pps file, large download file if you have dsl)

Ab.

May the firecamp keep feeding those big juicy steaks
And lot of OT for Christmas you’ll make

May the relief crew always show up on time
For you and your bunch to get off the line

May the night shift be rested and ready to hold
All that line you’ve been pushing since daylight unfold.

May the generator be shut down at 0 early time
So you and your crew can sleep just fine

May your sack lunches be fresh ones, not from days past
With 3 big sandwiches, all day to last

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Best wishes to you Ab, to Original Ab and the hotlist mods at Wildlandfire.com.

Normbc9

Nice poem, unnamed firefighter. Thanks, Normbc9; happy holidays to all of you as well. Ab.

ms

So. Cal Forest 24/7/365 Dispatch Centers........

There is all this talk about flying at night when the aircraft shouldn't even be
flying in those conditions even during during the daylight. The wind was 50+
mph and the drops couldn't be supported by ground troops.

DE

Ab,

I, along with CDF engines from Witch Creek and Ramona in unison with CNF engines from Barona, Henshaw and Pine Hills were the IA force on the 1956 Inaja fire. It, too, occurred during some very extreme east wind conditions. We all worked our hearts out to try to get some kind of a foot hold on that fire, but it just simply got up at the tops of the brush on the north side (south facing exposure) and ran from Eagle Peak Road west to the Dye Canyon and Barona Truck Trails in about twenty minutes (five miles) and the smoke column never reached up skyward. It was all horizontal smoke stream down canyon following the San Diego Riverbed.

In the next hour there were at least 25 engines, four dozers and fifteen hand crews on scene and assigned. Those were the days before aircraft. On the second day, two aerial N3-N’s were brought down from Oroville for an experiment. The final fire tally was, unfortunately, that several brave firefighters being supervised by USFS Descanso District personnel died in the San Diego River canyon. A wind shift caught them by surprise. Both fire agencies were at the maximum effort and even found themselves defending their respective Base camps from the fire. We all spent our Thanksgiving still assigned to the fire, but all were mourning the loss of fellow professionals.

The recriminations in the media began immediately and rumor after rumor passed on the radio talk shows. Accusations ran amok. The firefighters who were in the middle of the firefight knew what the truth was, but every time they tried to speak out some agency attorney or manager tried to prevent the stories from getting out. The same happened in 1970, 1992, 2003 and now 2007. In my opinion, what is the real truth is in the indifference in the governmental bodies of San Diego City and County. Both remind me of what I hear about the New Orleans situation. They want someone else to bail them out.

I can however identify with what retired San Diego City Fire Chief Jeff Bowman is saying. He was one of those guiding lights the fire service was counting on to help identify the problems that were the task of the Blue Ribbon Commission to ferret out. The job that group performed and the results of their work are legend, in my book. Look at the record. L.A. County went to work, implemented most of the recommendations, and the 2007 wild fire records will bear out. Considering the structures exposed, their loses were much less than the governments who tried to do this on the cheap.

And yes, Chief Bowman is correct. Cal Fire’s top leadership is now compromised by politics. Look at the news clips. Who was following the governor to every fire (Grijalva and the Resources Secretary) who were the window dressing the governor so desperately needed. The relaxation of the fire resources in this state were initiated on the order of the governor. Just days before the fire siege. When trouble hit, all were pretty much caught by surprise with the exception of the counties of Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara.

Make no mistake about it, if it wasn’t for the CDF Firefighters and the FWFSA, both parent agencies at the top are led by ineffective managers and they'd be totally paralyzed, if it wasn’t for the labor groups asking some questions and demanding some answers. Don’t let anyone mislead you saying that there are better circumstances in Cal Fire. Cal Fire does have very effective Unit Chiefs, but these are offset by some indecisive leaders further up the chain. If it wasn’t for the presence of many Schedule A contract funded personnel, Cal Fire would be in the same or near same position the USFS is in the Fire Control groups.

Normbc9

More of the same from Jarman, the city, and the local politicians. I think it's interesting to read the responses from the public. They get it! A lack of control, interoperability, and very poor brush management in the WUI is the key. Not spotters and night flying helicopters. Look at LA, they had ample resources and night flying helicopters but homes are still lost. Just like every major fire in the WUI. As long as San Diego still has inept leaders there problems will never be solved.

CDFFF

CDF is really taking a beating down in San Diego. Any of us who were there know who was doing what and it was not the departments in the article below. We need to support our brothers and sisters and start writing some letters and make some phone calls. The people of San Diego are going to get screwed if the city fire department takes control of wildland fires there. The citizens are not being served.

Please write......
To be considered for publication, a letter must include a daytime phone number and, if faxed or mailed, be signed. It may be sent to Letters Editor, The San Diego Union-Tribune, Post Office Box 120191, San Diego, CA 92112-0191, faxed to (619) 260-5081 or
e-mailed to letters@uniontrib.com

Cal Fire drawing heated criticism over policies
www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...23calfire.html

Experts cite agency's rigid approach to job
By Tony Manolatos Mark Sauer and Jeff McDonald
Union-Tribune Staff Writers
December 23, 2007

The call from Cal Fire came at 10:19 p.m.: Could Copter 1 rescue a man who had fallen off an ATV on a steep slope near Barrett Lake?

Sixty minutes later, the San Diego Fire-Rescue Department helicopter was hovering above a dark ravine in East County, battling gusting winds as the crew hoisted the 300-pound victim to safety.

The city firefighters understood precisely what was expected of them that night in August. As the only helicopter crew in San Diego County equipped to fly after dark, they answer such calls about 50 times a year.

What they can't understand, however, is why Cal Fire asks them to fly at night to rescue people but says it's too risky for them from to fly at night to drop water on wildfires, a far-less-dangerous job.

Fire experts say Cal Fire's ban on night flying is just one example of the rigid structure that defines the state firefighting agency, which is responsible for controlling most major wildfires.

Interviews with more than a dozen fire officials and politicians reveal a growing concern that Cal Fire's approach to firefighting made it harder to protect homes and save lives during the October wildfires in Southern California, even though the agency had been told to correct similar problems that surfaced during the 2003 fires.

Many of them said Cal Fire has become a politicized bureaucracy, saddled with a tight budget, layers of questionable policies and less influence in most of the state's largest counties.

These increasingly vocal critics say wholesale changes are needed.

Some are calling for new leadership. Others want a fresh approach to firefighting that employs the best strategies from departments across California. All agree on one thing: To prepare Southern California for future firestorms, Cal Fire needs more resources, more accountability and fewer restrictions, particularly when it comes to night flying and deploying military aircraft.

Some suggest that San Diego County – which lost more homes than any other county in October – would be better served with a unified firefighting approach that relegates Cal Fire to a supporting role, instead of allowing it to direct the fight. Six other California counties have taken that step.

The county Board of Supervisors already is considering buying 50 fire engines to offset the lack of state resources. And the city of San Diego is trying to find money to buy a second firefighting helicopter, partly because Copter 1 was the only helicopter flying over the city for the first two days of the fires, when 365 homes burned in Rancho Bernardo.

San Diego Fire Chief Tracy Jarman said her department needs “immediate access and control of air resources to respond immediately to work with crews on the ground.”

Frustrated by the state's lack of support, she has already told her staff to begin negotiating with the Navy for the use of its helicopters during future wildfires. That way, the city could bypass Cal Fire rules that limited the use of military aircraft during the last two firestorms.

The Navy copters are equipped with the same night-vision technology used on Copter 1 and on helicopters used by the Los Angeles city and county fire departments.

Jarman says it's easier to fight fires from the sky after dark, because the winds are usually calmer and night-vision goggles in effect light up the ground below like a video game.

But Cal Fire, whose pilots don't have the new technology, says safety is the issue.

Former San Diego Fire Chief Jeff Bowman, who was in charge during the 2003 Cedar fire, thinks city and county leaders should simply “get rid of Cal Fire.”

“I'm not knocking the firefighters of Cal Fire. I'm knocking the structure and how it's managed,” Bowman said. “I truly believe their leadership – there isn't any. It's all politics.”

But expecting lawmakers and the 65 fire departments within San Diego County's 18 cities and rural areas to support a unified plan is like expecting to win the lottery. The idea has been discussed for years, but turf battles inevitably rise, leaving San Diego County one of the largest and most populous in the nation without its own regional fire department.

Even the counties that rely on Cal Fire only for backup are demanding more from the state agency the next time around. (to read the rest, click the link at the top)

WLF.com Fair Use Disclaimer

Subject: ASC-HCM, Interagency Hotshot Crew Permanent Positions

Good Morning,

I just spoke to Lynda Kinney at ASC-HCM and the influx of e-mails and phone calls about the status of current permanent IHC positions is overwhelming them.

During January, a meeting will take place at ASC with classifiers and HCM personnel to discuss and attempt to resolve the following:

- Career ladder positions with in the IHC organization
- Open continuous announcements for all IHC positions
- Position description standardization across the country
- The use of the GS-7 vs GS-6 Squad Leader Position Description

I have requested that a least one representative of the IHC organization attend to answer questions on crew configurations across the country and any other pertinent questions that the classifiers may have.

I realize everyone is pushing to get positions filled before the upcoming fire season, however until that meeting very little will be resolved through continuing phone calls and e-mails except to delay other work ASC is doing.

A nation-wide approach is in our best interest and really the only way this will get resolved since HCM has been consolidated in Albuquerque. If you were to do anything it would be that your Regional Fire Director and Line Officers understand and approve the use of a GS-7 Squad Leader position description. It will be up to the classifiers of the PD that might be used in conjunction with development of a career ladder.

Please forward this request to limit the contact until after the meeting to the crews you represent.

I will advise you of the representative when attendance is approved.

If you have questions call. Thanks for your time.

<snip name>
<snip IHC supt affiliation>
Region 3

Federal Pay Raise, Part Two
12/21/07 02:00

Thanks to last-minute action by Congress, white collar feds will get a bigger January raise than the 3 percent hike authorized by President Bush.

Last month, the OPM published pay tables (which we also carried) showing the impact of the raise after city-by-city locality differentials were figured in. We told you at the time that the chart was accurate but that it wasn't necessarily the final word. The issue was whether Congress would pass an Omnibus spending bill that included the higher (3.5 percent) raise, and, if it did, if the President would sign it.

Bottom line: They did and he will!

The pay raise goes into effect with the first pay period beginning on or after January 1, 2008. For about-to-retire feds, most of their unused annual leave will be paid at the new, higher 2008 rates.

Under the original White House plan, the largest concentration of federal workers (those in the Washington-Baltimore area) would have gotten a 2.49 percent increase in January. But once the Omnibus bill is signed into law and after locality pay is factored in, most of those 300,000 feds will get a 3.49 percent raise. That extra percentage point will also boost the value of their life insurance, their eventual retirement annuity and the value of their annual leave.

The new pay tables will be posted on the OPM website soon.

Meantime, here's an estimate of what the raises will be for selected cities:

Chicago, 3.65 percent... Dallas-Ft. Worth, 3.72 percent... Huntsville, 3.07 percent... Los Angeles, Sacramento and Seattle, 3.5 percent... San Francisco, 4.23 percent... San Diego, 3.91 percent... San Diego, 3.9... New York City, 3.97 percent... and Richmond, 3.39 percent.

Feds who are in what is called RUS (which stands for Rest-of-U.S.) will get an estimated 2.99 percent.

The Nearly Useless Factoid
Today, it's completely useless for those who follow The Federal Drive, but in case you missed it, someone has actually gone to the trouble to list the Top Ten Worst Christmas Cracker Jokes Ever and the London Daily Telegraph has gone ever further by publishing the list. If pushed, we could probably explain what a "cracker" is (according to Brits), but we'd be hard pressed to explain British humour. They did say these are the worst. Enjoy!

To reach me: mcausey@federalnewsradio.com
www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=7

WLF.com Fair Use Disclaimer

Our office received an envelope from our Zone dispatch yesterday addressed
to "California Fire Fighters". In the envelope was a note and drawing from a
grade school student in California saying thank you for helping put out the fires.

Our thanks to all in the dispatch chain that got this note to us. Glad we could
help and ready to do it again if there is ever a need.

Seasons greetings.

Midwest Fire Guy

I am pleased to report that the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association's efforts, along with those of the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE), specifically Mark Davis, to educate Congress on the "unintended consequences" of PL 107-203 has resulted in legislation being introduced today by Sen's Cantwell (D-WA), Bingaman (D-NM) & Domenici (R-NM) that would expand coverage of those eligible for reimbursement of 50% of any liability insurance premiums.

And this from a 6/28/07 post from me:

We were also encouraged to see the liability insurance co-pay in the Senate bill. We worked hard to push this and I know Casey (a good man to have on your side!) did as well. We will continue to work with Congress to clarify the scope of this provision and encourage its passage into law. This is only a band-aide on the liability issue; we will also continue to work on building a statutory "privilege" firewall around information obtained by a safety investigation.

To FWFSA and NFFE member, right on. We are both member-sponsored organizations whose effectiveness depends upon the support of our members. I will never encourage a federal firefighter to chose one organization over another. I have too much respect for Casey's work. Membership in both is great. But if you can only join one, for goodness sake flip a coin and join one. The problem is not NFFE "winning" members at FWFSA's expense, or vice versa. The problem is those who benefit from the work of both organizations but support neither. Get in the game, folks! We're winning some major battles here. But there's more work to be done. To take it to the next level, we need your support. NFFE and FWFSA.

Finally, a clarification: while the original language stopped coverage at the ICT3, DIVS level -- the new language in the bill extends coverage all the way down to an ICT5, single resource boss, squad boss, and others who were originally left out. The word document in my 12/20 post give more details.

I'll get back with an update on the competitive sourcing language later, but for now I'm going to get back to enjoying the holidays with my family. Merry Christmas to all.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Thanks Mark. Ab.

contractor

PS. Just got in from a 14 hour shift plowing snow on I-90 for MDT.
(Montana Department of Transportation) Might plow on Christmas also,
Ho,Ho,Ho.

Glad you like it. We do too. Happy holidays. Ab.

I guess you allow for postings like Johnivan's because it promotes free expression (which is a good thing) and allows one to learn something. Hopefully some fellow feds, much smarter than I will teach Johnivan a few things over the next few days. My thoughts....

Forget about FMAG or F this or F that, and try to understand how the mutual aid system works. We as a whole would lose at a minimum 25% effectiveness w/o CAL FIRE, COUNTY FIRE, LOCAL FIRE and FED FIRE working together on each other's fires and other emergencies. The people of this state or any other state expect cooperation and understand cooperation has a price.

More important than that, is that it always astounds me to hear firefighters calling out other firefighters. You can expect that from Lawyers, Stockbrokers and Politicians, but Firefighters, common Johnboy! I'm Forest Service and will be a Forest Service Firefighter my whole career. However, I wouldn't lose much sleep or respect for a fire agency because they wouldn't pay to fix my ride. My concern was that it was fixed quickly and correctly.

You said:
I just heard CDF, oh sorry CAL FIRE. Cut with the cutesy crap please, that's embarrassing.

You said:
I lost a lot of respect for CDF. You lost a lot of respect because someone made a decision not to pay for a vehicle repair? Did you ever think that maybe a Fed Agency Rep made that decision?


YOUR ANSWER:
www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/cooperators/rev03_ca_fire_assist_agrmt_2002-2006.pdf

This agreement has been extended through the end of 2007.

Governor's Office of Emergency Services, hereinafter referred to as State OES; the USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region; the State of California, Department of Forestry and Fire Protection; the USDI Bureau of Land Management, California State Office; the USDI National Park Service, Pacific West Region, and USDI Fish and Wildlife Service, California –Nevada Operations, the latter five parties hereinafter referred to as Forest Agencies

A-17. State OES assumes the normal cost of repair or damage to State OES-owned apparatus, which may result from use under the terms of this agreement.

A-16. State OES shall assume operational costs, including necessary motor fuels and lubricants used in State-owned OES apparatus while responding to and returning from Forest Agency incidents.

A-21. Forest Agencies* will provide for motor fuel and lubricants, normal servicing costs, and minor repairs incidental to operation of apparatus including local jurisdiction support equipment while under direction and control of the requesting Forest Agency. Minor Repair is defined as any repair necessary to keep the equipment in operation on the fire, which requires not more than two hours (labor time only) for one mechanic for any one job, exclusive of obtaining parts.

COST OF APPARATUS AND EQUIPMENT LOSS OR DAMAGE
23. A Forest Agency may reimburse a local agency for the cost of apparatus or equipment loss or damage where the loss or damage is directly caused by the fire being suppressed, and where the local agency, its employees and/or operational failures in the apparatus or support equipment are not a contributing factor to such damage or loss. Loss or damage to local agency apparatus or support equipment while enroute to or from an incident and repairs due to normal wear and tear or due to negligent or unlawful operation by the operator shall be the responsibility of the local agency providing the apparatus or equipment.
24. Loss or damage to local agency apparatus or support equipment occurring on an incident is to be reported to the incident finance section to ensure proper documentation and investigation.
25. If post incident help is needed for cost reimbursement, contact the appropriate Forest Agency, listed below:

Finally, the So Cal fire siege was a federal disaster that caused the largest evac in Ca history. As a Fed and Ca taxpayer, I expect the Fed gov to support state, local and Fed departments. Why? Remember the fire agencies who may receive federal funds, may also be the same dept that is tasked with saving lives. We all have moms and dads, grandparents or kids. I want and will pay for a strong well-staffed fire dept in my community that is not burdened with paying for a federal disaster(s).

Good Grief, go vent somewhere else, because comments like yours are not something the overwhelming majority of readers in this forum find acceptable.

ms

Italics above are not Ab's. <tongue firmly in cheek>

The italics are entirely the contribution of Ab who seems to have lost his tongue in his cheek! Cheers, Fedwatcher II!

FOBS 73

It's nice to have that good fuel treatments burn example all in one place.
Should be on the hotlist too so it easily can be found with a search.

Everyone,

Whoooooo Hoooooooo, it's winter solstice! We're doing our annual
"Burning Old Man Winter" bonfire!

Happy holidays to all!

Mellie

Heh, wondered if that post would get you using dialup.... Ab.

www.dailynews.com/ci_7780371?source=rss

I also wanted to say that I do respect all fellow firefighters.
I was just venting.

Johnivan

A. You "heard" we were going to receive 41 million dollars. I
for one have "heard" a lot of things. Most of which if you
have been in this business long enough, know turn out to
be complete B.S. So when we actually get some money.
Then let's talk.

B. Cal Fire will pay for damages if they are related to the
to the incident. I have no idea what this issue
was with your engine. However it may well have initially
looked to be incident related. Once we find out through
mechanical troubleshooting that it may not have been
incident related, then we will not pay for the repair.

C. If the engine operator or the Forest your engine belongs
too. Believes they are getting the shaft. Then it goes to
the USFS Agency Rep assigned to the incident.
They will negotiate the issue with the I.C. or Dep. I.C. of the
Incident Command Team responsible for the incident.

Johnivan, I am sorry we have lost your respect. This is unfortunate. Fortunately
for us, we have the respect of many others.

Cal Fire Jake

I just heard CDF, oh sorry CAL FIRE, is going to receive around 41 million from US grants and OES. I am a federal firefighter. I was on the Harris fire, when the engine I was on broke down. At first CDF said they would pay for repairs, but when all said and done they didn't pay for cr*p. I am so glad that they are going to get all this money for fighting the fires but can't pay for an engine that broke on their fire. I lost a lot of respect for CDF.

I am staying with the federal service I am not going to jump ship.

Johnivan

I don't know what the rules and SOPs and channels are for paying for things like broken engines. Anyone know? Anyone want to fill us in? Ab.

Thanks Vicki.

Readers, with respect to Professional Liability Insurance, don't forget the FEDS offer of six months free when you make the switch by the end of the 2007 year. Tony and crew were the ones that Wright called on to do the work for those on Cramer and 30Mile. That legal brain power is working for all of us now through FEDS. Browse their website. Make a change.

Our wildlandfire.com calendars are pretty neat too. (Link and discount code at the top left of this page.) Ab.

Peets will be giving free drip coffee & tea and collecting donations for the WFF at 3 stores on Dec 24 from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. closing. I urge everyone in the area to stop in for a free cup of coffee and drop some cash in the jar. Peets will match the donations up to $1000.00.

Peets in the Corona Del Mar Plaza in Newport Beach will be collecting for the Santa's Helper Fund. My son will be at the Newport Beach store to encourage donations and answer questions about the foundation and wildland firefighting.

Peets in the Tustin Marketplace and Peets on El Toro Rd. in Lake Forest will both be collecting for the WFF General Fund.

Please stop in and drop some money in the donation jar for our Wildland Firefighter Foundation that does so much for everyone in wildland fire. We (family, friends & public) need to step up and support our heroes in any way we can and donating to the WFF is a great way to do so.

Annette

Abs: I am an Assistant U.S. Attorney who teaches a Fire Law course, and a former wildland firefighter. November 2005 we completed much of the pile and broadcast burning on my private land and the adjacent Forest, Payson Ranger District, under an MOU. Ice cold night winds falling off the Mogollon Rim added some excitement, but it was very successful in reducing dead fuels which were 30 tons per acre in places. The fire environment is the same as the Dude Fire, but better in November than in June. Many firefighters are familiar with my place from other fires as well, Kehl Ridge, Bray, December, Packrat and Webber.

Burning started 10 feet from my Ranch House with the Globe Inmate Crew assisting. They had no hot food for next breakfast, or shelter when I arrived, and were going to bed down outside. I opened up the Ranch House and Bunk House and made sure everyone had a bed or a couch or a cot, and hot water then went back to town for snacks and breakfast food. One of the inmates was an early riser and cook so I had him get me up early from my couch near the fire and we cooked up a huge breakfast. The Navajo Scouts replaced the Globe crew and I had a chance to visit with them as well, many of whom had been on the Dude Fire.

So far, this thinning and burning project has been a major success considering my 25 acres surrounded by Forest in a box canyon under the Rim had been at serious risk for a catastrophic and dangerous situation. Thanks are due the Forest Service, the Arizona State Land Department and the firefighters who have worked so diligently to complete this project. Here are some photos of the burning operations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After we completed this prescribed fire in November, 2005, in February 2006 a campfire blew off the Mogollon Rim and raced toward the Ranchhouse as a crown fire until it reached the fuel break. The treatment done by us, the State Land Department and the Forest Service made it safe enough for firefighters to work and saved the historic structures and orchards. The February Fire eventually burned over 4,000 acres around us. You should link to the attached paper which received National/Congressional attention as one of the success stories of fuel treatments under the National Fire Plan. Mike Johns

Here's a 1472K pdf file of maps, etc: Bray Creek Ranch Rx treatment
This is a 60K msword doc that will download if you click this link:  fuel treatment February Fire (60K doc file)

Messages follow:

I know you don't get many Dispatch logos, but I completed this one for
Central Idaho Interagency Coordination Center last year.
Tim B.

Here is the logo for La Cima Conservation Camp (Julian, CA).
MVU La Cima CCC

Thanks to both groups for doing what you do. There are other shops within the FS that are watching the bill carefully. In addition to liability, the whole outsourcing process is very time and money consuming. Ab.

Beyond Tranquillon Ridge was a great book to read and remember the
losses and the horrible tragedy from first hand accounts, but I remember
the stories best when you described them to us personally over a few
cold ones a few years ago.

We never knew....

Lobotomy

Readers, here's a pic of the '06 Lakeview Fuels Crew on Handcrews 22. Does anyone know if this is Lakeview, Oregon? Is it a state crew or FS or some other agency crew? Thanks for any info. Ab.

The crew in he picture is BLM crew 7 out of Klamath Falls Oregon (Lakeview BLM). The info below the picture is pretty accurate. the crew was funded as a fuels reduction crew. They also had suppression responsibilities, mostly local, but some of unit stuff. Crew was set up as a type 2 IA with 1- Superintendent, 1- Foreman, 3- Module leaders (Squaddy), and the balance crewmembers. I believe they had 10 perms, ranging from PFT to perm 13/13's, and the rest temps. For equipment, I believe the crew had 4 six packs, multiple atv's, a type 6 engine (NWCG), a type 4 engine (NWCG), as well as lots of chainsaws. Pretty nice set up. Sadly, I have heard that the crew was disbanded after the 06 season, although that may not be true.

L-C-E-S

The photo was the BLM Lakeview District 2006 Fuels Crew located at Klamath Falls, Oregon. The crew that started in 2000 is one of several funded by the National Fire Plan - available for suppression but focusing on hard manual work and lots of prescribed fire. Cathy

ND

Thanks, I added the OR info to the description. Ab.

Thanks, Homey, I put them on AirTankers 24 photo page. Ab.

Picture of range fire in Jones County Texas on Jan. 12, 2006. The truck
belongs to the Anson Volunteer Fire Dept. Anson, Texas. Picture taken
before the helicopters and planes arrived on the scene.

Submitted by Shannon H. Middlebrook

Thanks for the engine and flames. I posted it on the Engines18 photo page. Ab.

"Nerve center of the FWFSA" Casey-snow, but lots more.

Wildlandfire.com was also down this morning for 45 minutes. Those winter storms can take
their toll. If you can't get through to theysaid, just try again later. OA and I decided by
phone this morning that it was further indication we should all take a break and enjoy
our families when opportunities arise. Haw haw, several folks called to ask if we knew...

I got a call from one groundpounder needing his theysaid fix. He said he's spending time
at school with his kindergartner. They had so much fun the first day he's opted for
being there all week! Sounds like one fine alternative.

Have fun, All! Relax... Cheers!

Ab.

Here are a couple of interesting articles from the Lompoc Record
concerning the 1977 Honda Canyon Fire on Vandenberg Air Force
Base.

Today is the 30 year anniversary and I thought your readers may
want to take a long trip back in time.

www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2007/12/20/news/featurednews/news01.txt
www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2007/11/13/news/featurednews/news01.txt

Here’s wishing you a very Happy Holliday,

Joseph Valencia

Hi Joe, nice articles, but for the full story I think people should get your book Beyond Tranquillon Ridge and read it. Here are some good reviews. I found your book very interesting. Ab.

To follow up on Casey’s post of 12/18, maybe I can shed some light on the coverage provided by the PLI provision in the 2008 omnibus appropriations bill. NFFE has been working with the Forest Service and Congress on providing broader coverage than was initially proposed. Here’s the short story.

The original PLI language would have expanded coverage to some, but not all, fire line supervisors. The original language would have modified the law to read (changes are in blue)

Word doc of the formatted version (33K) with changes in blue. Ab.

So do you know any places in Canada that are recruiting wildland
firefighters with no experience?

JEB

When you describe the wildland fire management community don’t forget
the Fire GIS Specialists! The job may not be the most glamorous; I’ve never
heard of high risk exposure to too many shapefiles, but the first thing folks
ask for during a wildfire is a map.

Fire Geek

Orienting, one prerequisite for situational awareness... Ab.

"What has always scared me is that a good majority of the
stones at the National Wildland Firefighter Memorial in Boise
came from contract airtanker crews...... For some reason,
their losses aren't appreciated or understood by some in
the wildland fire community."

I read once where if ground resources had the same death rate per
hour exposed to wildland firefighting as airtanker pilots is would be
many times higher than the worst year we ever saw. And no one
would find that acceptable. The nation has a duty to every wildland
 firefighter to provide them with safe, effective and efficient tools to
use. Wildland fire management is a big family. Hotshots to Type 2
crews, to IA crews, to dispatchers, to the pilots, the folks that work
in the caches, to the person who drives a pu of cubbies out to the
fire are all part of that family.

Any loss is a loss to the family.

Midwest Fire Guy

"... U.S. law-makers allowed to assign $500,000 to the U.S. Forest Service
to implement a program to protect forests and animals in Russia's Far East."

Sign me: Follow the money
and where your dollars go..... (not tongue in cheek) but an actual news story
from abroad that shows where US taxpayers $$$ are going.

With the recent development of fatigue cracks in the Navy's remaining P-3's, does
anyone know if there are plans to add CL-215/217 and the Q-400 airtanker
conversion www.cascadeaerospace.com to the US Federal fleet? Seems we
keep relying on old equipment or go for the biggest must be best with the DC-10
and 747 that have limited abilities mountainous terrain.

Midwest Fire Guy

Here are the results of the Federal -- especially R5 -- Retention Issues Survey.
(The Survey is here: www.wildlandfire.com/surveys/2007/1/survey.asp)

We've summarized the numbers of respondents replying to various categories:
www.wildlandfire.com/surveys/2007/1/pub.asp

The first group includes all 314 unique respondents. Duplicate replies from the same isp were deleted in a very few cases. Thanks for participating responsibly.
We've reported numbers replying by Agency, by GS level, and by Forest for the entire 314 cases.
65 firefighters had interview dates scheduled with CalFire; the breakdown by R5 Forests for these 65 is listed in the right hand column.

We then selected on firefighters that are USFS and from R5.
Of the 248 firefighters who fell in this category,

 53 Have Applied to CalFire and had Interview Dates
 21 Have Applied to CalFire Without Interview Date
 78 Have Applied to CalFire or Other
 30 Plan on Applying to CalFire or Other
 30 Strongly Considering Applying to CalFire or Other
 17 were Interested in Applying to CalFire or Other
 14 were Considering Applying to CalFire or Other
   5 did not mark any option
248

We also tallied other info on GS Rating, Module, Forest and Appointment for the entire group of 248.

We then selected those who
Applied to CalFire and had Interview Dates
Applied to CalFire Without Interview Date
Applied to CalFire or Other
Plan on Applying to CalFire or Other

There were 182 firefighters who fell in these categories. We felt these were the most likely to leave their FS employment because they're already in the process or they are likely to when positions open in January -- unless the retention situation changes.

The array of reasons (issues) these people report that need to be addressed are summarized HERE.

Thanks to everyone who participated.

The Abs.

AB,

I wanted to write a quick note to express my concern and, frankly, my hurt. Since May of 2007 I have worked as an engine captain for a private wildland fire fighting company in R5. Over the past 7 months I have noticed a complete lack of respect and very frequently a heavy dose a vitriol directed towards myself and my crew for the simple reason that I work for a private force.

In case anyone cares I can assure you that my crew and I are very qualified. It took me eight years with State departments of Forestry and with other private firms to obtain the level that I am at. My operator is a fully qualified engine captain in his own right, and the fire fighter on board is a 3 year veteran of a hotshot crew and an EMT. Additionally our engine is a brand new 2006 Ford with a beautifully engineered fire back.

I am not attempting to compete with anyone. Why are we private fire fighters so thoroughly despised? Most of this spite seems to come from gentlemen I would otherwise call 'bothers' in the CDF.

Private wildland fire fighters are not attempting to take jobs away from anyone - we're just here to support the agencies when things go really bad. Let's face it; the advent, frequency, extreme nature, and size of wildfires is increasing on an almost yearly basis. With problematic funding for the Forest Service and the sheer amount of acres needing coverage for the CDF why not enthusiastically embrace the creation and evolution of a professional, competent, and experienced private force to help fill the gaps when the line is stretched thin?

It's painful to realize that the CDF would rather use their brawling criminals to put out fires rather than fellow hard working, responsible, and respectable citizens.

I have no wish to step on anyone's toes, but I fight the fight too.

And despite my enthusiasm to be the best, most competent, fire fighter I can be I was addressed as a 'snake' and given a sneer more times than I care to remember this last season. I invite everyone at CDF to try at least to be polite to the people who are, after all, attempting to do the same thing you are: protect life and property.

Thank you for accepting this post, you have a great site AB

Elusive Russquatch

Your company does a fine job, too. Ab.

Interesting comment by Mike D about contractors being reluctant to
put out fires, since they would then be out of a job. Same goes for agency
crews, why put out the fire fast when there is more H pay to make.

Been there and seen it happen in more than one Region.

Knothead

Don't forget our '08 Wildland Fire Calendars either! (Discount code at the top right of this page.) Ab.

I have heard some inmates are being pressured by gangs with threats to
their family members to create a disturbance before they get out. Don't
know if this is just beginning or if its gone on for a while. Gangs in jail
might change the mix and what happens on the fireground.

SC from Socal

Here's a find from RobMac on the SRF. It shows part of the dilemma of structure protection on the SRA.

CDFFP_Cost_Cont_to_Escalate_032607.pdf  (380 K pdf file)

Full Report: LAO 2007 Budget Analysis: CDFFP (3540)

By Lolita C. Baldor, Associated Press Writer
Mon Dec 17, 12:51 PM ET

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Navy has grounded 39 of its surveillance, anti-submarine planes due to concerns about possible structural failures in the wings.

Ten of the four-engine propeller planes are currently deployed overseas, and Navy spokesman Cmdr. Jeff Davis said they will return to the U.S. for repairs and it has not yet been determined how or if they will be replaced.

"We are acting early, based upon engineering analysis and fleet inspections, to ground these aircraft before a problem arises," said Davis.

<snip, go read the article>

The Naval Air Systems Command issued a bulletin announcing the grounding on Monday, saying it was determined that the 39 aircraft were "beyond known structural limits on the lower section" of the wing.

Ab,

This goes back to my days in the CDF Camp program in the 60’s and I do remember all of the Camps CDF personnel being gathered at the Chino “Southern California Training Center” (SOCC) and being told by a CDC Deputy Warden and the CDF Region 6 Camps Coordinator telling us that CDC was going to “reclassify” inmate candidates for the Fire Camp Program and they were going to have to allow inmates who had a history of violence and drug use into the pool to be considered for selection for the Camp Program. To the CDF personnel that was not good news.

One thing we were warned of then that the rise of violence was to be expected but as long as it remained out of the public view and did not cause any community resistance it would be allowed to change. Well Ab, that change did happen and the violence did increase. One disgruntled inmate tried to douse a CDF Crew Foreman with gasoline and ignite him. Other inmates intervened. The rule of “Keep this story here in camp” prevailed but later it did get out. There have been other serious incidents against both CDC and Cal Fire personnel and in most cases the silence of those involved was rewarded later with some special consideration. At a later date the California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA) had it written into their MOU that all Cal Fire Camp vehicles would also be lettered with a selected CD signing which continues to this day. Most Cal Fire camp personnel are intimidated enough that they will normally keep the stories to themselves but there have been some very serious incidents involving unacceptable inmate behavior that CDC has consciously suppressed.

The issue of the quality of inmate now no longer allows the good workers to get to the Camp Programs. They are hoarded by CDC and used in their “For Profit” Prison Industries operation (PIA) and the ones who get to the Camps are frequently viewed by CDC as “another trouble maker out of here and now a Cal Fire problem.” Cal-Trans, Fish & Game and other state agencies have some sort of Camp arrangements also. Most of those are seasonal in nature like clearing snow chocked high country highways, Fish hatchery Improvements and trails work in the parks. In all cases the managing of the inmates by CDC is at best one that almost dehumanizes the individual incarcerated and no wonder why the individual inmates are angry. That is a human reaction to that type of treatment. Prisons in this state are doing nothing more than warehousing sentenced citizens who are now handled like livestock.

Normbc9

Ab-

It was a tough week for Gabilan crews that week. We knew of this 'riot' incident
soon after it happened, but CDCR wanted to keep it under wraps so as not to
spread it to other Golf Strike Teams. In another and I believe unrelated Gabilan
incident, a Gabilan inmate attempted escape only to be tackled and subdued by
his Fire Captain until CDCR arrived.

DM2

More like a fight than a riot. I heard behind the scenes here that the CalFire Captain acted, yelled some verbal commands, got control of the rest of the crew and kept the incident from being worse than it was. Not the captain's job, but in remote, wildfire conditions with CDC fairly far away and out of touch, it's good he stepped up. Heard there were water tender and dozer operators standing by ready to support the captain too.

CalFire readers, is anyone concerned that word might get around that similar conditions are the time for inmates to make such a move again in the future or was this more of a one time deal? Last fight I heard of on a fire was on the French Fire (SHF, '04); it was mid-day and those guys were rolled up pretty quickly. Any lessons learned from this one? Remoteness, communications, availability of CDCR, etc? Ab.

All Regional Employees,

A team of comprised of line officers, fire management leaders, HR
specialists and civil rights specialists met December 10-14 at the
McClellan Training Center. The purpose of the meeting was to examine morale
and retention issues in the Regional Fire program and to determine causes
and develop potential solutions for those issues.

The people who attended this meeting and regional leadership acknowledge
that there are widespread concerns surrounding all of these issues and they
are committed to developing recommendations and implementing solutions that
address those issues.

During the meeting there were discussions that spanned a wide range of
issues including the pay disparity compared to state and local
firefighters, the high cost of living throughout California, classification
of a firefighter specific job series, and other things adversely affecting
employee morale and retention.

The team discovered that to confront these negative influences on employee
morale and retention within the Regional Fire program, a heightened
recognition of : employees through pay commensurate with the work they are
required to perform; the changing environment and the skills required to
accomplish the Forest Service mission within it; and the important
contribution work life makes to the quality of life overall. The team
developed recommendations to create positive change in each of these areas,
all with an eye to sustain a Forest Service that attracts and keeps quality
people.

The draft will be finished by Wednesday of next week. I anticipate being
able to release details of the strategy once the Regional Forester Team has
been briefed. Following that, the Regional Forester Team will be working
with leadership in the Chief's office to gain support for and implement
the recommended actions we will be taking forward.

I want to thank the Team that worked on this plan. I appreciate their hard
work and commitment to improving this situation.

Jim Peña
Deputy Regional Forester

"Those simple changes would allow portal-to-portal schedules as needed in specific areas, or 40 hour schedules as needed in other areas based upon management or mission needs; the ability to seek Special Base Rates to be used in conjunction with Locality Pay Adjustments (not Special Salary Rates); the ability to separate the duties of Forestry Aids and Technicians from the duties of wildland firefighters; the ability to use and implement other hiring authorities other than temporary employees, and; the ability to apply the true meaning of what is codified as compensable meal breaks, and what truly adequate meals and lodging are."

FedWatcher

Re the socal firestorm...

Concerns persist about private crews U.S. hires to help battle wildfires

Firefighters battling the devastating Southern California firestorms in October were assisted by dozens of private engine companies and hand crews whose role in wildfire suppression is expected to grow despite criticism about inadequate training and oversight.

Thirty-one private engine companies -- most from the Pacific Northwest -- were deployed to the San Bernardino National Forest to combat the Slide and Grass Valley fires, which destroyed 450 homes.

The U.S. Forest Service also sent contract engines and hand crews to fortify firefighting agencies stretched thin by the October fire siege that consumed more than 500,000 acres between Inland Southern California and the Mexican border.

As federal officials turn to contractors to help combat such massive blazes, they are paying closer attention to which crews they hire in the wake of a report indicating that as many as a third of the private firefighters sent onto the fire lines lacked the proper certification to be there.

Even contractors themselves say the federal agencies that hire them could do more to scrutinize their performance and history before dispatching them to a fire.

Re the socal firestorm...

Inmate fire crews pulled after rioting

Two inmate firefighting crews were pulled away during the height of the wind-driven wildfires that flared across Southern California this fall, after a "riot" broke out on their bus, according to documents obtained Friday.

White and Hispanic inmates began fighting in the back of a crew bus while they were supposed to be fighting the Poomacha Fire in San Diego County, according to reports obtained by The Associated Press. Other inmates had to be separated after they moved to join the fight, the reports say.

I got a chuckle out of that one.

I can also attest that if you put dish soap (in this case Dawn) in the dish washer
(3 year old saw mom squirt stuff in there) you will have foam flowing across
your kitchen floor just like in the movies. It took running the dish washer 3 times
before bubble quit coming out through the seal of the closed door.

Mid West Fire Guy

FoamtheHangarRunWild.ppt (1907K ppt file)

Now, if I had a gazillion dollar home in the WUI I'd want one or two of these
devices protecting it. I wonder if they're available as surplus military equipment?

AK Old Timer

It will probably get posted in here soon, however outreach came out yesterday
for 2 more 7-person NIMO Teams with GSs from 12 to 14. These will be for
Phoenix and Portland area and they will be WO positions. Those receiving the
5-year assignment must live within 8 hours of those two cities. Same set up as
last NIMO hiring round, the person must be currently Type I qualified in a
Command and General Staff position.

Good opportunity and good luck if interested..........

Letterman

Steve Miller to Auction off Custom Made Guitars to Benefit Firefighters

Legendary artist will auction off two guitars on Ebay beginning December 10th 2007

(Sun Valley/Ketchum, ID)-Legendary musician Steve Miller will auction off two custom made signed guitars on Ebay to benefit the firefighters that worked to save his, and so many others’, homes in Ketchum, ID during the August 2007 CastleRock Fire. Miller nearly lost his home in the 40,000 acre blaze that threatened the resort community of Sun Valley/Ketchum this past summer.

After containment of the fire in early September, musicians in the community, including The Steve Miller Band, Carole King, and the Bruce Willis Blues Band, who all have homes in the area-put together a benefit concert for the firefighters. 6,000 people attended, and firefighters who worked on the fire were each given a ticket. The concert raised close to $113,000 for the Sun Valley/Ketchum Firefighters Association, and the Wildlands Firefighters Foundation. Miller presented the money to each organization in a press conference held in Ketchum on December 3rd.

The guitars, custom made by legendary Boise, ID guitar maker John Bolin and airbrush artist Christy Griffith, depict images from the CastleRock fire. Miller played both guitars at the annual Sun Valley/Ketchum Firefighters Ball, held November 17th. “These two guitars are the exact model that John Bolin builds for me and that I play at every concert I do,” stated Miller. “Your purchase will support the brave men and woman firefighters who risk their lives in this dangerous occupation. I know whoever gets these instruments will play the paint right off of them-Keep on Rockin’ Me Baby!”

Specifically, the guitars have chambered alder wood bodies with rosewood fingerboards, as well as a Hardtail bridge and Kulsons tuning gears. They also have the Steve Miller Slight U shape old school 50’s necks and Seymour Duncan Custom Vintage Pickups, and come with an engraved plate reading “Firefighters Rock”.

The guitars will be signed by Steve Miller, Carole King, and Bruce Willis, and will be available for bid on Ebay starting December 10th, 2007. link to the auction. The proceeds will go to both the Sun Valley/Ketchum Firefighters Association and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which helps the families of US Forest Service firefighters who are injured or killed in the line of duty.

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Thanks, Melissa. Ab.

There have been at least 4 Water Tender / Tanker Roll Overs
- that I am aware of -
that relate to the soft shoulder on forest roads since October 2006.
... Bolli Incident, 5/2007

October 6, 2006 - Day Fire - Los Padres NF
May 27, 2007 - Bolli Fire - Shasta-Trinity NF
July 9, 2007 - Schultz Fire - Peaks Ranger District (AZ-KNF-Schultz Fire)
July 13, 2007 - Zaca Fire - Los Padres NF

Fact #1 - Water Tenders are heavy vehicles. (rollover.jpg)

Fact #2 - Shoulders should not be expected to be able to hold the weight
of vehicles

Fact #3 - Wet winter conditions will make shoulders less stable.

Fact #4 - Heavier vehicles will be at greater risk near the road edge.

Fact #5 - Staying off the shoulder is one way to stay safer on forest roads
... even if you don't drive a water tender !

So What ? What Can You Do About It?

Here are a couple of resources that would make good safety tailgate topics
for your crew...

A few Lessons Learned from the Bolli Incident Water Tender Roll
Over........ Lessons-Learned-Bolli-WT-Rollover0507.doc (2,692K doc file)

A Lesson from Denali where "Dump Truck Meets Reflection
Pond"................ It-only-LOOKS-like-a-shoulder-poster-fs.doc (4,685K doc file)

Three More Roll Overs During July 2007....
Two relate to speed and another relates to the shoulders giving
away............... FLA-Multiple-Vehicle-Rollovers0807.doc (52K doc file)

Document the fact that you covered this material with your folks.

Let's keep them Green (Red or Yellow) Side Up,

Thanks,
-mc-

Michael Cobbold
Safety Officer
Shasta-Trinity and Mendocino National Forests

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I recently had the opportunity to attended a Leadership in the Fire Service
conference and had the pleasure to hear guest speaker Chief Dennis Compton,
Mesa, AZ FD (ret.). During part of his presentation he talked about the
impact of leadership on line of duty (LOD) deaths. One statistic that hit
home was that 25% of LOD deaths are vehicle accident related. Further he
stated that while only 3% of the fire service fleet are water tenders they
represent 20% of fatal fire service vehicle accidents.

Lets provide the leadership to ensure ALL of our water tender operators
have the safest work environment we can provide. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN and
educate.

thanks, arlen (Cravens)
Shasta-Trinity NF

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please see the comments above from Arlen Craven and the attached from Mike Cobbold.

This lines up pretty well with Larry's leadership at out recent meeting in Jacksonville FL.

Seems to be an area we can make a difference.

I believe our agency dozer operators are another area where we can educate to improve safety.

There are a small number of these operators who often go unnoticed.

Cheers!

Peter Tolosano
R5 FAM Safety Officer

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a string of emails here with a lot of excellent information and
material here for briefings, safety meetings, and especially for
discussions with supervisors on their responsibilities.

Steve Holdsambeck
R4 FAM Safety Officer

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fw: Forest Roads: Recent History and Wet Shoulders, Soft Shoulders -- It only LOOKS like a shoulder!

Dave Sinclear
FMO on the Mendocino NF

All these and more messages are making the email rounds on the FS web. Some good resources. I'm posting this on the hotlist as well. Ab.

Bolli Fire Rollover: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=371
Zaca Fire Rollover: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1117

Without credible info on why decisions are made it's easy to imagine just about anything.

I hope good clear info comes out of this retention meeting soon to dispel conspiracy theories.

Last Brush Hook, speaking into my tool

No, simply a request. Ab.

Thanks AK Oldtimer. There are huge incentives right now to retire. R5 hasn't seen the baby boomer bubble pop yet, and I don't know about other regions, but this could be the year... Ab.

Hi:

Where can I find latest information on the AD hires. There was a lot
happening there for awhile, then nothing. Thanks for your help.

M48

The retention meeting runs through tomorrow.

By the end, the group expects to have a fat package of recommendations to make. That will go first to the RO for review. It's thought the RO will support whatever the group recommends and pass it on up to Tom Harbour (FAM Chief) and Abigail Kimbell (FS Chief) who will forward it on to Mark Rey.

Those at the retention meeting are playing it a little close to the vest at Ed's request. None the less, we've heard they're asking for the whole taco. They recognize we've probably lost those firefighters who are interviewing with CalFire, but they're looking to make a difference and retain the rest.

There are at least three working groups; some of their members include, <static> well, I'll get those to you in the morning:

1. Streamlining cumbersome bureaucratic processes
2. Pay
3. Classification

Jody Noiron (Supervisor on the Angeles) and Kathy Hardy (Deputy Forest Supervisor on the Stanislaus) are tag teaming so a line officer is always present, making it hard to talk into my shoe or boutonnière. Jim Pena, Deputy Regional Forester, stopped by yesterday in hot pursuit for 1/2 hr on his way to the Tahoe to make sure everyone had what they needed.

All indications are that this is an excellent firefighter group really working ALL the options. I think they took to heart and it's also in their nature to listen to the following suggestions from the ground:

"Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things." Peter F. Drucker

"May the decision makers in the meeting have the courage to stand up for what's right and not accept anyone saying; 'It can't be done' or 'We can't afford that' unless they can back it up with good staff work."

Alias.

I also thought of the ancient Maxwell Smart tv series with Agent 86's post... Ab.

Has anyone talked about the pros and cons of using the Series 0081
for wildland firefighters? It's used by Pendleton firefighters. I remember
some discussion on theysaid years ago. Maybe I'll have to do a search.

Does hazard pay "go away" if that series is used?

Tahoe Terrie

Kind of quiet with the "cone of silence" hovering over WFTC.
Is no news good news? Anyone have any information?

Agent 86

Burnover in SoCal. Orange County Engine Crew on the Santiago Fire during the '07 firestorm.

www.latimes.com/la-burnover-f,0,732907.flash?coll=la-home-center

JS

JS, it did get posted as soon as it came out. Sometimes what this community finds and how quickly they find it amazes me. Many were still in socal fighting fire so I'm posting the link again. Here's the hotlist blow-by-blow leading up to the burnover. At first there was a single pic posted by an AZ newspaper for only several hours. Then the photo was circulating behind the scenes in emails without any info as to where it occurred. I had written down the LA Times photographer's name -- Karen Tapia Anderson -- and provided it to those writing in and seeking info. I'm glad the Karen and the LA Times coordinated all the photos and put the communications with it. I hope someone tries to get approval for it to be used in wildland fire training. Ab.

The VOICE of the SEQUOIA -

I have enclosed a copy of the flyer and would like it if you could/would pass this
on to the the fire world. I would like to remain anonymous.

Thanks so much

Her retirement party needs a RSVP by Jan 2 to Jonel Wagoner. If anyone wants the flyer, email me and I'll forward it. Ab

It is pretty fine. 7 1/2 min and worth it. Thanks Ken, for the great work and following through with the video! I added the you-tube link to Ken's '07 Sahara run page. Ab.

This went out to the CalChiefs. Ray is on the board of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. He knows how they help regardless of the firefighter's Agency. He says:

Please distribute to as many of your friends as possible who may be able to support the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (WFF). In order to continue to support and help the Fire Community as it has, it now needs your support. Thank you ..Q

Here's the link to the WFF letter that went out. Please send it to your friends. The Foundation has helped CalFire firefighters this year as well as fed and other. I hope the CalFire community will also support the Foundation with donations to the WFF 52 Club or to the WFF General Fund. The Foundation is the safety net for all of us.

http://calchiefs.org/items/WildlandFirefighterFoundation.doc

Ab.

Here are some CalFire families the Foundation has helped recently:

- Matthew Will, Cal Fire Dozer Operator: Financial assistance was given to his wife, Diana, and their children. And, a statue was sent for presentation at Matt's memorial ceremony.

- Chris Johnson, Cal Fire Firefighter: Financial assistance was given to his wife, Rebecca, and their child. A statue was sent for presentation at Chris's memorial ceremony.

- Craig Brown, Cal Fire Dozer Operator: Financial assistance was sent to Craig's daughters to help cover costs while traveling to see their dad in the burn center.

- Zaca Fire injuries (hotel costs were covered for crew members as well as some family)

No worries.. Ab said it best.. Sometimes it is hard to read a person with no body language and tone to discern. I read you as coming across as an elitist that thought Cal Fire was better than the other state and Federal entities that are around it. I'm not one to get angry I just say what I believe and stand up for my values.

DB,

There is a lot of other stuff about Cal Fire that I like. I look at a lot of things when making a decision and yes money and work schedules are in the mix. Those are not the only things on the list. A Union that fights for you. Cal Fire's history and upbringing are good ones as well. The chance to give my volunteer department more time and help with more training. See my wife a bit more. Work in a different and sometimes more dynamic environment. I can definitely stay entertained working for Cal Fire and I definitely can understand your resistance to the Open list "I want the Money and work schedule only" People are out there. Unfortunately, my old roommate is one. He left the fed as a temp to be a temp there and now works permanent. My only distaste for the guy is he didn't honor the history or culture of firefighting. He had a job in the South making loads and quit. And once he got to the woods it was all he could focus on that he was making 50K less than in the city. HELLO! That is what happens when you move to the woods in California.. Cost of living goes up and amount you're paid goes down drastically. :) It doesn't say NASA on the side of anything That either agency owns..:)

Bags packed

There is nothing "archaic" about requiring that folks enter local, state, or federal law enforcement or fire fighting before the age of 37. Nobody is being "penalized." This is a young man's/ woman's game whether we like to admit it or not. I and many many many others are really looking forward to retiring before 60 or 65 like airline pilots. I will be out before 50. This is the only incentive to stay with the feds right now, this is a good thing. There are already way too many folks staying in operational positions that their bodies can't handle and crew production and/ or safety is reduced. This is not what the tax payers are paying us for and this is not what the kids sign up for. Guys and gals digging line is still the backbone of what we do and we need to be able to keep up with them. There are exceptions, and I know there will be a lot of replies from that group of over 60 that are just monsters and run circles around the the young guns. But these animals are very few and far between and I'm very proud to know a few. There are secondary fire positions that have no age restriction that skilled and knowledgeable folks can attain their fire fix and contribute to the cause. I know you often post on what the USFS should or should not do and about its policies, but I garner by your moniker that you are not an employee......Think of the reverse, what if I started posting about your department's policies and advocating for their change and who should or shouldn't be hired when I know nothing about what goes on in your station? Just a thought.

To those that are quite content inside and out of R5 with your current pay I'm quite jealous. But here's the good thing: If we (R5ers) succeed in gaining better pay it will eventually be beneficial for everyone. I know California has a bad rep in the other regions but most things for good or bad trickle out of this region. If you don't want more pay, there are some mighty fine and needy charities to donate your extra cash to. I've listed them below....tis the season.

<snipped by scrooge>
ncalsupt

Are you able to go work at a station if you wanted to work some overtime or transfer out?

BG

Thanks for sharing, Former r-5er. Ab.

I think within CAL Fire union people and Upper to Mid management should strive to make their candidates more viable in the new competitive market. CAL Fire personnel are still able to take advantage of TAU positions and LT positions that make them highly competitive. Education is key. The Feds pump huge amounts of training and classes into young firefighters. Up until recently not much has been done at the FF I level; and FF II 's and Engineers are largely restricted to JAC classes unless they are willing to pay out of pocket, many of whom do. The end result is Fed Engineers and AFEOs with more classes than many CAL Fire Engineers.

This represents an issue for two agencies. The Feds lament the time, money and next generation of firefighters leaving in droves in this exodus. Some CAL Fire people I have talked to are frustrated at the situation for not being as able to readily promote in the agency they dedicated themselves to. I do not pretend to understand everything or all the reasons for some of this discontent, I do understand that this is a problem or, at the very least, a hot button issue with two agencies.

I left the Feds for a FF I job, hoping next go round for a FF II job. Most of my friends who came over this year with me agree it is time for a change in the Feds. CAL Fire people have been very kind and receptive to me and others I have spoken to. I would urge patience to all people in these issues. I do not pretend to understand the decisions my friends made to leave the feds; mine were the money, benefits, being called a firefighter not forestry tech, and I just wanted to expand to municipal firefighting skills that I was not allowed to train on -- due to national directives -- but was expected to perform on the job (vehicle fires, traffic accidents, structure fires, medical aids).

We all put whatever color pants we wear on one leg at a time; we all make our own decisions, and none of us is individually responsible for the issues in our agency; we should all work together to address and amend them, not yell at each other for our individual frustrations.

Happy at CAL Fire

I don't hear any yelling.... Ab.

http://stores.ebay.com/Castle-Rock-Fire-Guitars

SWID

We should tell our rich friends? Ab.

Former Green Soldier said "Are you worried about not getting a promotion, or that a Forest Service person may get it?? If CDF has a fair and equitable hiring system, don't you think the the most qualified/prepared candidates for the positions will get them? There are many great fire stations now-a-days that deal with complex, multi-agency, all risk incidents on a daily basis. Please don't mix union and management points of view. Sounds like you're trying scare away the competition. That's ok, my dept loves to hire from the green team. Although we have been blue a lot longer than you, we have quite a few people who still bleed green."

As I stated earlier... posting the Union response to the open list was to provide some background on the issue. The views expressed were the Union's taken verbatim from the website. No mixing of views on my part. And to answer your question, I am not worried about not getting a promotion. Just curious as to the direction of our Department.

Ab said "Readers, the variety of views expressed on theysaid educates all of us. Thanks to everyone who writes in. Let me remind all of you that anonymity plus lack of body language and other communication cues and lack of status symbols like collar brass or lack thereof can make communication more difficult, but often more interesting. Let's try to learn as much as we can from each other. Carry on. Ab."

Ab, as somebody said already, thanks for this forum and all the work you do to bring to all of us.

BG

You're welcome. We do like to be appreciated time to time. HAW HAW, buy a calendar! Ab.

sting

You seemed to have taken my comments out of context. If you read my earlier post I simply stated that not all FS employees who work currently have any interest in working for CalFire. Just like your self with great qualifications that go beyond your job description, you have decided to stay with something you like. Thats great!

You also seem to have confused my dislike of the open testing with something against the FS. There were more people then just FS who took these interviews. While I will be the first to admit that I don't understand the culture and not the biggest fan of how it operates in California, I have nothing against the people on the ground. I look forward to the day when you guys get what is due to you. It will make life better for all of us.

When it is all said and done The "Open List" will have been a small foot note in both our organizations. CalFire has its own issues that need to be addressed as well.

BG

Are you worried about not getting a promotion, or that a Forest Service
person may get it?? If CDF has a fair and equitable hiring system, don't
you think the the most qualified/prepared candidates for the positions will
get them? There are many great fire stations now-a-days that deal with
complex, multi-agency, all risk incidents on a daily basis. Please don't
mix union and management points of view. Sounds like you're trying
scare away the competition. That's ok, my dept loves to hire from the
green team. Although we have been blue a lot longer than you, we have
quite a few people who still bleed green.

Former Green Soldier

Readers, the variety of views expressed on theysaid educates all of us. Thanks to everyone who writes in. Let me remind all of you that anonymity plus lack of body language and other communication cues and lack of status symbols like collar brass or lack thereof can make communication more difficult, but often more interesting. Let's try to learn as much as we can from each other. Carry on. Ab.

If you could pass this on.

Thanks,

Mad River HC

This message just dropped out of the server. Hope it's not too late. Ab.

db

Good point. So you'd like to see those applying be attracted to and embrace the CalFire Mission and Vision before they have a thought about money. Ab.

The 30,000 people of the Forest Service work in the most scenic and inspiring forests and grasslands our nation has to offer, as well as in offices and research laboratories nationwide. The American people own the National Forests and we are their managers, performing valuable work today that will be appreciated by generations to come.

There's so much you can do in a Forest Service career! Our extraordinary diversity of occupations and locations make it easy to find a position to suit your talents.

• Plan intelligent utilization of forest resources
• Perform research that benefits natural resources
• Protect the place of wildlife and fisheries in the ecosystem
• Manage rangeland and watersheds
• Conduct environmental impact studies
• Manage wildfire prevention and suppression
• Provide a safe and clean place for people to recreate
• Use your public affairs skills for community involvement
• Support our technical and financial efforts
• And so much more

Hundreds of occupations, from firefighters to engineers to biologists. Hundreds of locations. The Forest Service offers challenging, worthwhile careers, all with excellent benefits. For more information, visit our website: www.fs.fed.us/fsjobs Equal Opportunity Employer.

noname

Ab said "BG, So is the point of this is what??? To warn people off from trying to get hired by CalFire, to warn those who are being hired they will be considered second class firefighters and not expect to be counted one of the "in crowd", to encourage people who somehow unworthily get hired to "stay in their place", something else? I guess I don't understand your purpose?"

Actually Ab, the reason I sent in the Union response is to show that the Open List has been an issue for quite some time (1982). Long before I was ever involved in CDF. Bags Packed seemed to think that I was speaking for other people when in fact our Union had spoken long before I had said anything regarding this issue. For along time in CDF the way you become a Captain is to get hired as a FFI or FFII, then apply for the Engineers position and then promote to Captain. That is the way Fire Departments promote people. It insures the people who lead and are responsible for peoples lives are truly qualified and capable.

I would never expect anybody hired by us to be treated anything less then professional. The one thing you won't have to worry about is being treated like a second class citizen by anyone. Not by other FF's, Engineers or Captains. Not evan management. We are recognized as FF's and it is recognized in our titles, pay, benefits, our retirement and our working conditions. I understand why people want to work for us. It is the same reason I work for CalFire and have no desire to work for anybody else. I believe this to be true for allot of FS personnel as well. They are completely happy and content with the job they are doing. They have no desire to work else where and they are great employees. Nothing wrong with that. That was my point in my earlier post.

Ab Said "If I was to instruct new open list hires to the FS or BLM what they might need to know to begin understanding the culture of the Agency they're going to be working for, I'd send them HERE and suggest they study up and let's talk. Anything like that you could suggest to our fine experienced people who might be coming to join your agency? Ab."

You pose a valid question. I don't know what is being taught to new hires who are coming from another agency. Are these Captains being expected to attend our Academy and complete JAC? What are we doing to make sure these people succeed? Your reference to the Wildland Fire Leadership Values and Principles is a great one. The only difference would be to rename it Fire Service Leadership Values and Principles to reflect our mission statement.

The one thing that I will say, that until the FS (USDA) treats and recognizes its employees for what they are, this is going to be problem until it is handled. I know by reading this forum that there are allot of people who are unhappy with the way things are. Hopefully something good will come from that.

BG

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Open List for Fire Captains

In the past CDF Firefighters has called for a general IAFF and CPF boycott of the open captains list. It was intended to keep non-CDF/ CAL FIRE individuals from reaching an open list for fire captains, limiting these appointments for our members who qualify through the established promotional process.

Laughably, if you’re inclined to find humor in unintended consequences, the boycott request precipitated even greater national attention and there was an increase in the applications submitted for the open fire captains test. Obviously, this is more than enough reason not do that again.

History

The open fire captains list was a result of an agreement reached with then Chief Deputy Director Woody Allshouse representing CDF and the CDF Firefighters Executive Board of Directors. The agreement was also approved by the Department of Personnel Administration (DPA) and the Public Employment Relations Board (PERB). The agreement included the end to split classes, which included battalion chiefs, assistant chiefs and Foresters II.

Specifically, the agreement moved all battalion chiefs to rank & file and moved all Assistant Chiefs/Foresters II to supervisory classifications. At the time, a high priority out of many past conventions was to achieve collective bargaining for supervisors. This agreement achieved that priority for well over 50% of the supervisors and provided 100% MOU protection for all battalion chiefs, not just a handful.

Part of the agreement includes CDF Firefighters not opposing an open pattern for fire captain.

The agreement further provides that CDF will not make appointments from an open list until the fire captain promotional list is fully exhausted and/or every promotional applicant has first been offered and turned down a promotional offer. At the time of this agreement, CDF knew it would not be able to keep pace with projected openings in the fire captain classification and needed the open fire captains list as an option.

Whether you agree or not, after arduous meetings, CDF Firefighters made an agreement with the department, including safeguards to prevent inappropriate use of the open pattern, and we are obligated to keep our word. Opposing the open pattern now breaches the agreement and puts at risk the rank & file status of all battalion chiefs. To date there have been a total of 44 open list fire captain appointments. There are still a large number of vacant positions and both the promotional and open lists have been fully exhausted.

New exams are underway.

While some of you will not like the fact that the open pattern for fire captain exists, I felt you should know why it was done and why we are not currently opposing the process.

On this same subject, CDF Firefighters has been successful in preventing the use of the open exam process for fire captains since 1982. We were successful in negotiating the cessation of the open pattern for the fire captain class as part of a stipulated judgment. That judgment also provided the participation in the JAC Program and ended the use of split lists for hiring. While it wasn’t easy once again to allow the use of the open pattern for fire captains, it was recognized by the union leadership that problems existed in filling fire captain positions resulting in safety and fatigue issues for existing personnel. As long as the safeguards are not violated, this practice is necessary to get us through this difficult period.

BG, So is the point of this is what??? To warn people off from trying to get hired by CalFire, to warn those who are being hired they will be considered second class firefighters and not expect to be counted one of the "in crowd", to encourage people who somehow unworthily get hired to "stay in their place", something else? I guess I don't understand your purpose?

If I was to instruct new "open list" hires to the FS or BLM what they might need to know to begin understanding the culture of the Agency they're going to be working for, I'd send them HERE and suggest they study up and let's talk. Anything like that you could suggest to our fine experienced people who might be coming to join your agency? Ab.

While it sounds like you have some excellent experience regarding wildland fire fighting, that is but one dimension of what it takes to be a Fire Captain for CDF. Look at the job statement for Captain and see how many other aspects of the job you are required to know. In the past we wouldn't promote (some exceptions) our own people if they didn't have what it took to do the job. It doesn't mean that people can't learn new things, but how do we expect these people to be role models or mentors to those entering into the Fire Service (CalFire) if they are still learning themselves? As a Captain for CDF you have a lot of responsibilities and are supposed to have a large knowledge base for all that we do.

As you stated, you understand the whines about guys "skipping" in from CalTrans, then you understand the issue. Actually, I believe we have a few Dozer operators and mechanics who started with them. Truth be known, there has been an avenue for state employees all along to enter in to CDF.

While I truly look forward to seeing the altruistic fire line you mentioned, I will point out that there is allot to be said for the current atmosphere between the FS and CalFire. Anybody who says differently was not in California this year.

Former Fed:
I wouldn't expect anything less than what you have experienced.

Joatmon:
I don't think FS folks are any less likely to pass or not pass then any of our own people. It is a ranking based on how well people interview. Reading some of the comments on this board, you would think that if somebody (anybody) had an interview they will be hired. It is not the case. My point being, if they don't pass and are not hired, then the FS has not lost an employee. Maybe the Forest Service should have an open Captains' list as well. I am confident there will always be people who feel that they are qualified and would take the job.

I would be curious to know how many people applied for the open Captain's test and how many were rejected prior to interviews.

BG

I have been working in wildfire for the last 3 fire seasons as a seasonal dispatcher for the BLM at an interagency dispatch center. This last fire season was very stressful at the center (personnel problems) and it made me think a little more about what I want to do in fire in the future. I'm graduating from college this coming May with a degree in Political Science, so I'm thinking about what I want to do in the future, but I'm planning on working in fire for the next 2 years for sure. However, I've never been asked what my future plans are in fire or what I would like to achieve during the fire season. Plus, I've never been allowed off unit or in the field. And I'm not even sure if I have a redcard and what is even on it. (It's a long story about the redcard!) The one bright thing is that I've been interested in working in wildfire since a young age because my father worked for USFS and fought fire in 1970s and 1980s before getting involved in USFS law enforcement. So he has been some help with dealing fire jobs, but things have change a lot in fire since the late 1980s that he is not that much help now.

So, I'm sorry if my questions seem basic but I really don't have any idea who might be someone to ask. Here are the questions:

1. I would like to go out and fight fire but I'm not sure what I should apply for in the job since I've not been allowed out of dispatch in the last 3 seasons.

2. Since all my fire experience has been in dispatch, can I apply for GS-04 job? My past grades are '05 and '06 seasons as Range Tech. Aid (GG-03) and '07 season as Range Tech (GS-04 STEP).

3. Is it normal for fire dispatch jobs to be advertised as a 2151 series? The dispatch center I've been at the last 3 seasons is advertising its seasonal jobs as a 2151 series job.

4. I would like to do this fire season is dispatch and fight fire in the field, so I can see if I can really do it. How would I go about doing this?

Any help would be great. Since I'm still debating if I want to work at the same dispatch center or go out on an engine. Thanks!

secretsmokejumper

Readers, is there anyone who would like to be this person's Secretfireadvisor?
<tongue firmly in cheek> Secretsmokejumper, psssssst, you need a plane and parachute at least. Engine won't do it... Ab.

You bring up some excellent points. But let me ask you, "Where you work, do you have an "urban interface"? Unfortunately for many reasons, they are growing and going everywhere. I believe many people are jumping ship not to go fight structure fires or run medical aids. Believe me getting up 5-6 times after midnight is not much fun, but a decision I have made. These people are going because they live in R-5, 6, 3 and others where the cost of living is astronomical. The days of living in the barracks (I did for 8 years) are long gone. People want to own a home, have a family and be able to support them without having to put in 1000 plus hours of OT. I wonder if anyone has looked at the divorce rates and other sociological implications of being gone all summer.

I think if you read these posts, it's clear people would love to stay if the were given some recognition as Federal Wildland Firefighters, worked for a Land Management Fire Dept, and had 21st century pay, benefits, and leadership.

Furthermore, a lot of the non-traditional training, ie; Haz-Mat, S.C.B.A., first-responder was started to take care of our own. Until you put up a wall around every National Forest, people will still come. They will still get hurt, have their cars catch fire, build Meth Labs, build "seasonal" cabins, and get in to trouble. And what about last fall, do you tell the guys and girls that came out here last fall from R-4, 8, 9 and others "you're not invited anymore because your forest does not train or equip you properly???"

Former Green Soldier

The R5 meeting on retention began yesterday afternoon and continues today and tomorrow.

Yesterday was about identifying and characterizing the problems, basically getting people introduced and on the same page regarding, for example, cost of living, that a GS-6 FS firefighter makes more money on unemployment after being laid off than working, that kind of thing.

Ab personally thinks this group -- those who were in attendance -- is an excellent knowledgeable group. Ed chaired the meeting.

"Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things." Peter F. Drucker

"May the decision makers in the meeting have the courage to stand up for what's right and not accept anyone saying; 'It can't be done' or 'We can't afford that' unless they can back it up with good staff work." ms

People in attendance were
Gary Biehl, RO budget guru
Jay Perkins, Forest FMO and Fire Planner on the Klamath NF
David Glen, civil rights FCRO
Anthony Escobar (IHC handle: Crowbar), Forest FMO on the Los Padres NF
Jerry McGowan Forest FMO Stanislaus NF
Dave Defraene AFEO on the San Bernardino NF and NFFE rep
Karen Hayden, Feather River District Ranger on the Plumas NF and redcarded crewboss
Kurt Winchester, Mountaintop District Ranger, San Bernardino NF
Steve Diaz, Engine Captain on the Shasta Trinity NF and Engine Captains rep
Johnny Clem, Klamath Hotshot supe, Hotshot supes rep
Lirian Penn, excellent Human Resource Specialist
Jody Noiron, Forest Supervisor on the Angeles NF
Ed Hollenshead, R5 Chief FAM

People not in attendance were
Jim Pena, Deputy Regional Forester
Joy Thomas, Regional Human Resources Manager
Kathy Hardy, Stanislaus NF Deputy Forest Supervisor

Any news out of the conference at WFTC? Everyone around here
is waiting on pins and needles!

Bags packed

With the mass exodus of Fed employees over to State and Local government, who will put out the fires on Fed jurisdiction and who will respond to the hurricanes and other natural or human caused disasters?

The Fire Service nation wide is constantly changing, no longer are we an all volunteer work force, nor are we strictly Forestry Technicians. Our careers have become more complex and we have changed with Society's expectation of what "firefighters" are and the level of service expected. Where was FEMA and DHS years ago? Single "I" NIMS, pacts between States and Governors, never heard of. Yes, we will still respond and put out large fires but we know now that we will also pick up Shuttle parts, choke chickens, dig in rubble piles and do whatever it takes to serve our nation outside of war.

The Fed wildland fire agencies need to change with the times or they will slowly be choked down to a couple of seasonal engines in their home units who will never leave home.

Hopefully there will be a few die hard leaders of Fed Firefighters who will not jump ship and will continue to fight for what the citizens of our country expect, hang in there and lead from the bottom up.

Regarding who will respond to all of the large incidents, I envision little change in the current system, you will still have Fed Incident Management Teams, NIMO Teams and mutual aid agreements. The complexity of the Team rosters will and are changing. You will have a higher percentage of State and Local government personnel on the Fed Teams, many of whom served the Green Army for years prior to switching to the Blue. Those Fed Teams may one day be working for DHS or those Teams may come under the umbrella of the States and be shared as needed. One thing for sure, change is coming. Policy makers had best get on the train and pull their head out of the sand (in some cases their a**) or they will be swallowed up by those who step up to drive the train.

By the way Mr. H, I left the Green Army 25 years ago as an Engine Foreman (Captain). Having been a Fed Type 1 & 2 Team member for numerous years, I still see the most beautiful places in America. The view, sunsets and travel have never been better but now I have a view from my own home instead of Government housing and the travel is also experienced off duty with my family and not just courtesy of Uncle Sam.

There is light at the end of tunnel, more than likely its the Train.

Yellow Angel

All this ranking below on firefighter job series means

Rated as Less Important in the decision to leave by the group that is interviewing
11 Firefighter Job Series<-----------------------------------------------
12
13
14 Advanced Education Opportunities
15 Benefits-Holidays/Leave
16 Social/Culture/Entertainment Options

is that these folks with an interview for the Captain's position are already pretty far out the door on shifting jobs to CalFire. In my opinion, it provides some validation of the survey data for this group. How often do people who are leaving one job concern themselves with something relating only to the old job that has so long been an issue -- with little change? It's human that thoughts and focus move on to the next creation.

I would venture to say that the state of California made a smart move when they changed the name from CDF to CalFire. CDF, like the FS, is a land management agency headed by a manager, at least formerly headed by a land manager, my friend Andy Tuttle. Same issue feds have at their highest levels, as well as within each forest. The morale issues at the state level mimicked our morale issue at the fed level. CDF State of Resource Readiness is authorized to not be less than 82%. Current level was falling below that with firefighters leaving to other local agencies. One way to change morale (and people leaving an agency) is to give recognition, to appreciate, even to change a name. Given that CDF was loosing many experienced firefighters to other county and city fire departments, they were in the same low morale state as the feds are now. Heck, they changed the name... Smart move.

From what I've observed, another way that CDF / CalFire works on their professional image and morale is to have a very active "Educate the Public" or PR or Marketing program. It's not by chance that their engines are in front when the pres comes to visit. It's not by chance that the public thinks the 2007 firestorm was handled (or not, in some cases) by CalFire firefighters. Matt Streck, CalFire PIO, he writes in to the hotlist with breaking CalFire information and tries to keep the rumor mill from churning during fire season.

GACCs, movement of resources, fed IMTs, what did they do? The feds don't take simple opportunities to educate the public on the real good they do in moments it would be appropriate. I know that to large degree to the public "a firefighter is a firefighter," but the red engines get more air time by design and by effort. This also aids in self- and public-perceptions of CalFire professionalism.

Pride in your profession and agency leads to envisioning it at professional and PROFESSIONALISM which ultimately to self-monitoring and self-moderating of your profession for safety, one of the things the Firefighter Safety Awareness Study (TriDat, 1996) Part III said needed to be fostered following Storm King.

OK, enough of that for now. I had to go back and Find Qs musical contribution "I'm Dreaming" (swf file) and replay it. Wonder what engine or hotshot crew are playing the deer parts???

Thanks to the calendar photographers. Nice job, community.

Mellie

You can also find that link to the FF Safety Awareness Study on our links page at the bottom under safety. Ab.

When Ed H spoke to the <snip> during our Leadership week, he stated that we do this for the "Sunsets and travel". I was on the fence til that point! Ed showed me he doesn't care about classification, thus my application to CDF.

We'll maybe he's right. Those Mare Island sunsets look nice when your a GS-15 making 142k a year, that's $11,833 per month. I know at least a dozen people who would of got up and walked out if he would of offered them the sunset and travel pep talk.

This needs to go on the quotes page. Classic.

Stand Strong

James,

The basics of recruitment and retention of federal wildland firefighters are not so easily rooted in pay as some would like, especially hourly rates that some firefighters receive. Recruitment and retention problems are rooted firmly in safety, and actually being recognized for the jobs and risks they perform in protecting our communities and our natural resources. If you are thinking about coming back, you will be welcomed by the federal wildland fire family.

First of all, let me say that the FWFSA is strictly non-partisan in our views and goals. The FWFSA is an employee association and not a union. The FWFSA has members from all of the federal land management agencies..... from entry level to upper level fire management..... all dues paying and contributing members.

The FWFSA has been working, sometimes with the support from the federal agencies and often times not, in addressing the simplest of successful business model principles. The FWFSA has always stuck to, and has followed its mission and principles:

- Seeking to provide competitive pay, benefits, and working conditions in connection with the associated risks, duties, and level of experience needed in a federal wildland fire program to help the federal land management agencies achieve the expectations of both the Congress and the American taxpayer.

Some of the things the FWFSA has been working on since the beginning are:

1) Proper classification (Passed in the U.S. House of Representatives, 2006)

2) Health benefits for temporary employees (Achieved by the FWFSA, but blocked in implementation due to a rule that only allows FEHBP program providers to enter federal facilities and offer their programs)

3) Elimination of the overtime pay cap (Passed by both the House and Senate and signed into law by President Clinton)

4) Portal to portal compensation on emergency responses (Three bills, two in the House of Representatives and one in the Senate)

5) Hazardous duty differential pay counting towards retirement (same as #4 above)

The FWFSA has also supported numerous other actions to "improve the pay, benefits, and working conditions" within nationwide fire (and other programs) by providing data and expert level consultation on such things as special salary rates, group classification desk audits, and comments on pending federal legislation and how pending legislation will affect federal wildland firefighters safety, or the safest methods of federal wildland fire program delivery.

It's your voice!!!

Lobotomy

Ref:

USDA, National Agricultural Library
Tension in the Tinderbox: Finding Fairness in Federal Firefighter Compensation

USDA National Agricultural Library
Wildland Firefighters Pay: Are There Inequities?

So we are in nearly half the states in America. Even though the Association was started in 1991, most of this growth has occurred since 2003.

So I hope this information tells you that we aren't "just an R5 social club" as many had thought in the past.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

• All updating and new applications need to be in AVUE by February 3
• February 4th – Create referral lists (inform applicants referral lists will be created on this date; this is why all updating and new applications need to be in AVUE by February 3)
• By February 18th – HR completes referral lists and review of applicant qualifications
• By February 21st - SF 52 Tracker data reconciled with FAM vacancies, AVUE data loaded into Tracking database, Reports prepared for February 25th
• February 25th – 29th Subject Matter Expert review, (McClellan), Reports prepared for March 3rd.
• March 3rd – Selection process begins (McClellan)

NoSign

I have been saying it all along that not everybody who works for the FS wants to come work for CDF. R5 will lose some people just like CDF loses people every year to other departments. In California there are a ton of other Departments that make more money then we do. Entry level FF's for some departments make more then our Captains make. That is life. If we want to go work for them we have every opportunity to do so. The only difference is it would be as a Fire Fighter and not entering in as a Captain. CalFire's flaw is that we are allowing people to become a Captain without having to promote. The employees of CalFire had no say-so in the open Captains' list, and if a poll was taken I would venture a guess that the majority would be against what is taking place. Our management and Union agreed to this, not the work force. And just as there will be people to take Captains positions in CDF, there will be people to fill the "void" in the FS. I am waiting to see how many FS personnel actually pass the interviews and are offered a job? it might be a non-issue.

BG

I have one request for Casey: please give us a break down of FWFSA members by state. I think a lot of people would be surprised. Although I know that being a member of FWFSA member doesn't mean that you will always agree with every issue that Casey takes on, I think it would show that there are a lot of federal firefighters with concerns - and not just in California. In fact, Casey, please give us a break down by agency as well.

I started my career with the FS, then moved to NPS and BLM before coming back to FS. I started working for the feds because I grew up in small town, my family never traveled, and I wanted to see the country. And I have. After nearly 20 years, I will stay with the feds because of the freedom it offers me. However, I am single and have no children. I also do not own a home. I do not currently work in R5, although I have in the past. If your federal salary is enough to offer you a comfortable living where you are, be thankful. Please don't bash those who are not in your situation. I've worked in four different regions. From my experience, it seems like the places where federal firefighters with families can make a decent living on one income (and it usually has to be one income because who is going to watch the kids when you are out making your OT to pay the bills) are the exception and not the rule. Even being single, I spent many years living in rodent and roach infested studio apartments with the heat set at 55 degrees because I couldn't afford anything better.

As to the question, "Who will stay"? I will, for one. I am one DIVS, ICT3 that the government will continue to push around until I retire. I would like to think that there are enough other nomads out there like me who will also stay, and hopefully, have a hand in improving things someday. My single, unattached status allows me to be selfish this way. But I have seen too many great firefighters leave for other state and local agencies to not be a member of FWFSA and support what people are trying to accomplish/prevent in R5 (not to mention that warm, fuzzy feeling I get when I enter "exempt working as non-exempt" on my time sheets). Let's buck the current administration and stick together. Next year at this time, we will be looking at a new president, and who knows what will happen then. This is the time to lay the groundwork for making our issues heard - even if you don't care about R5 and CalFire.

Staying

You're welcome. Ab.

If the FS is removing itself from fire on the interface, where will the GACCs be? Who will run the GACCs the FS has run? the BLM has run? Those agencies won't really need them anymore. How will they be funded? Perhaps they will simply be contracted out?

This is what I'm talking about. Everyone assumes the parts of the fed machine we want and need to go on to have a viable working system will just "magically" go on.

I'm saying that's quite an assumption. What follows current Forest Service pullback (and likely followed by BLM, NPS, FWS pullback) from interface fire should be discussed and planned, or it will be like riding into Baghdad and "winning" the war. Believe me, I was as shocked as many that I hadn't thought beyond Baghdad to what I didn't imagine that I didn't know, because I assumed. Let's not do that this time.

How will the new system -- the new dynamics, the new funding to whom? for interagency, interstate, intrastate fire and other all risk agreements, the communications details both large and small, etc, etc -- how will it work? Sure, mutual aid on a large scale is likely the way to go. I just wonder if people realize how much of what goes on in the system is done under the FS umbrella and how a change in that could bring down a system.

Let me offer a mind exercise. Think critically about the 2007 firestorm in socal. What would have been different if the FS GACCs didn't exist? if Fed IMTs didn't exist? How would some critical parts of the job have gotten done?

Think critically about the firestorm in Idaho last season and run through the same scenario. Where would we lack pieces if the Fed GACCs, and IMTs didn't exist? Where might there be other problems? CalFire firefighters, keep in mind that many areas of the West don't have a strong state fire department like we do...

Mellie

PS. I must say, I really miss Don Studebaker sometimes.

Sure, they hire seasonal every year. Ab.

Prescott Helitack has a new Webpage. Come and visit.
www.fs.fed.us/r3/prescott/fire/helitack/

Virgil Lookingback
Helitack Lead Crew
Prescott Fire Center

Nice one. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=13514#post13514

Ab.

I got my 2008 calendars in the mail. You running back and forth shipping these things out? Did I get a calendar handled by one of the Abs??? Do you don a special Santa hat? Thanks to the photographers! Nice photos! Good memories of the season and thanks for the discounts. I used two discounts. One was that special discount word and I got another one because I ordered mine with 3 other people at work.

AL

Hi AL, Original Ab is doing the handling and running around. Thanks goodness for the Original! No doubt those calendars have his fire office vibe all over 'em! Don't know if he's wearing his Santa hat, or if he even has one... As for photos, I agree AL. They are mighty fine fire pics. Yep, we tried to price them pretty close to the bone and we did allow piggybacking 2 discounts on purpose, one discount for being part of this community, another one for ordering 4 at a time. Order 9 or more and get another bit off...

Readers, in case you don't know or don't remember, if you enter the discount code: theysaidit exactly as shown in the box on the "checkout page" you get about a 7% discount on the cost of the order. It's our way of giving a little something back to our faithful readers and contributors. I'm posting that up by the calendars link... Ab.

"I'm Dreaming" (swf file)
Click "Play" in the middle.

It will get you in the spirit! Brought a smile to my face. Ab.

The next round of Fire Hire for R5:

Word on the street is: Applications need to be submitted in AVUE by February 3rd (the referral list will be generated on Feb. 4th with selections beginning on March 3rd).

A couple of AVUE tricks…

Deadlines: Please remember that AVUE works off of Eastern Standard Time – and the system often shuts down for maintenance at midnight (with a 10 minute warning). If you are on the West Coast, you will be shut out at 2100 (if you haven’t saved your work, it’ll be gone in a flash). If you are a procrastinator, 8:59 pm on February 3rd is the last chance to click the Submit button for this round of hiring!

KSAs on AVUE: KSAs (sometimes called Evaluation Criteria, Quality Group Factors, Quality Ranking Factors, etc…) are excellent opportunities to round out your application. The Merit applications in AVUE have both radio selection buttons and (in most cases) text areas that are limited to 4000 characters. Demo applications only have the radio buttons. However, it is really important that applicants take the time to respond to KSAs whether or not a text box is provided within the AVUE application. If you are applying Demo (or your Merit application doesn’t have text box areas), write your KSA responses in MS Word (or another word processor) and attach them in the Supporting Documents section.

When I was with the Feds, exactly how to respond to KSA statements seemed to be a big secret. However, the down and dirty is this: KSAs need to be written in narrative form (paragraph style) and should include specific examples from your professional experience. Make sure the examples you use are also delineated in your resume/work history blocks. Use the allowed 4000 characters – KSA responses should each be between 2/3 and 1 page in length – a few sentences or a single paragraph won’t cut it. Think of KSAs as interview questions and put your best foot forward.

The Office of Personnel Management has outlined a great approach to writing KSAs called the CCAR model. I have some Tip Sheets on my Federal Wildland Fire Applicants page on my website that explain this approach.

Supporting Documents: You can make the poor saps (i.e. subject matter experts or SMEs) that are “selected” to review the applications for this next round a little bit happier by taking a few simple steps – and keeping the SMEs happy is a good idea on all counts! Get your hands on a copy of your IQCS Master Record (from your supervisor, training officer, etc.) and attach it in the Support Document section in AVUE. Also attach a recent SF-50 (just scan and upload it). Transcripts are nice, too (unofficial will work just fine).

But here is my biggest bit of advice regarding the Supporting Documents section in AVUE: Attach your supporting documentation in .pdf format. This goes for KSA statements and resumes that you include, as well. There are many free .pdf converters available online – I use doPDF. Although AVUE allows you to upload supporting documents in many formats, I have encountered volumes of supporting documentation that I cannot view because the format doesn’t come across. Pdf is the safest way to ensure that your supporting information is available to view every time.

I know how hard it is to get answers regarding the AVUE process and want to just toss it out there that I am happy to answer AVUE questions at any time and invite people to give me a shout if they hit a road block.

Sincerely,
Bethany E. Loomis-Hannah
www.LoomisHannah.com

To the LPF mom of E-75 AFEO:

I would like to give you a huge thank you for what you did at Thanksgiving. I know all of our firefighters that had to work Thanksgiving day on the LPF really appreciated it, but so did I as my son had to work and could not travel home. Because of you, he had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I am so thankful and grateful for you. When I get to come to Fraiser Park to visit my son, meeting you and giving you a big hug is a priority.

Readers - this wonderful, loving mom cooked 3 turkeys and all the trimmings and took them to the Chuchupate station for all the men & women working in the LPF on Thanksgiving day.

WFF Fundraising: Peets Coffee will again be collecting money for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation this Christmas Eve. Peets will match the donations up to $1000.00 per store, so we want to get as much as we can in donations. The good news is we have 2 other stores, as well as my daughter's collecting for the WFF this year in Orange County with 1 store for Santa's Helper Fund and the other 2 for the general fund. I will send the locations, times and details soon for posting.

Annette

Nice job, Annette. These kinds of grass roots annual events help. Readers if you aren't near a Peets and want to spread the cheer, click to purple ribbon at the top right of the page to go to the WFF website. Ab.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/As_public_firefighting_decays_billion_dollar_1210.html

Hundekot

From Lirian Penn, making the rounds...
Subject Fw: Please read trailing message re: Executive Order:
Closing of Executive Departments and Agencies of the Federal
Government on Monday, December 24, 2007

Here is the link to the Compensation Policy Memoranda (CPM)
www.opm.gov/oca/compmemo/2007/2007-14.asp which provides
further information.

Employees with use/lose annual leave may need to reschedule
their leave.

<snipped Bush's message>

Sometimes, jumping ship is just about job security for employees and their
families.

-IADP

Normbc9

About 342 people responded to the survey. Tomorrow (oops, today but later) we'll have the precise number with breakdowns for replies by Agency, by GS Rating and by forest.

68 participants had CalFire Captain interview dates. We chose to summarize that data first. People who are interviewing are acting on a decision; they're not simply thinking about it, but putting their efforts where their mouth is.

# by Forest/With Interview Dates

 5  ANF
 3  BDF
 9  CNF
 1  ENF
 1  INF
 2  KNF
 5  LNF
 8  LPF
 1  MDF
 4  MNF
 3  PNF
 5  SHF
 1  SQF
 2  SRF
 2  STF
 2  TMU
 2  TNF
56
  3 unspecified agency
  9 Other than R5 FS (2 NPS, 3 BLM, 2 FWS, 1 FS WO, 1 GS-8 Engine Captain, 1 GS 11 AFMO, 1 GS-12 unknown)
68

# by Modules:
27 engines
  4 handcrew T-2
13 handcrew T-1
  6 helitack
  3 prevention
  1 smokejumper
11 overhead
  3 other
68

# by Positions:
  1 Engineer/Assistant Supervisor
48 Captains/Supes
11 AFMO
  3 FMO
  3 Other
66

All but 2 were Full Time Permanent appointments. Two were Permanent < 26 pay periods.

This group is comprised of our journeyman/journeywoman firefighters, module leaders, and up. Maybe I can do a breakdown of GS levels tomorrow. They're mostly 8s and 9s but there are several 7s, one 10, some 11s and a 12 or two.

CalFire or other agency position willing to take:
27 same as hold now
27 willing to go 1 below
14 willing to take any
68

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Potential Issues surrounding decision to leave or stay for the 57 R5 FS firefighters:
For each category, the 57 respondents chose a number between 1 and 10 with 1 signifying most important issue and 10 signifying least. Most people marked more than 1 issue with a 1. Their 1's remained 1's and I changed their other numbers to 0, then summed the columns across all respondents. Group totals are on the left of the issues. The array of all the issues is at the bottom.

Pay & Benefits
29 Job Security/Stability
31 Wages/Salary
19 Duty days/hours
17 24 Hour Staffing
23 Benefits-Health/Dental/Vision
15 Benefits-Holidays/Leave
21 Liability Insurance
11 Firefighter Job Series
25 Portal to Portal Pay
30 Promotion potential/Apprentice advancement

Location & Living
22 Station/Duty Location
32 Area Cost of Living
24 Living/Housing Availability
16 Social/Culture/Entertainment Options
14 Advanced Education Opportunities
17 Spousal/Significant Other Employment Options
18 Health Care/Education/Shopping Availability (self and/or family)

Here are the resulting tallies in order of their increasing top priority concern(s).

Rated as Less Important in the decision to leave by the group that is interviewing
11 Firefighter Job Series
12
13
14 Advanced Education Opportunities
15 Benefits-Holidays/Leave
16 Social/Culture/Entertainment Options
17 Spousal/Significant Other Employment Options 17 24 Hour Staffing
18 Health Care/Education/Shopping Availability (self and/or family)
19 Duty days/hours
20
21 Liability Insurance
22 Station/Duty Location
23 Benefits-Health/Dental/Vision
24 Living/Housing Availability
25 Portal to Portal Pay
26
27
28
29 Job Security/Stability
30 Promotion potential/Apprentice advancement
31 Wages/Salary
32 Area Cost of Living
Rated as More Important

A number of people suggested adding Retirement Benefits to the Pay and Benefits category. Maybe on the next survey. A number of people mentioned increasing workload created by moving "Finance" support staff to Albuquerque and sending the "IT" people somewhere else. Two people mentioned the Series 401 snafu. Several people mentioned deteriorating buildings. Others cited lack of high speed internet coupled with increased computer training and work requiring high speed internet. I've probably missed a few. I'll look again tomorrow.

My guess is that if we included only the Apprentices' issues in a separate tally, the array of issues might look a little bit different. I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Here's a document of comments. Many people would rather not go, well read it for yourself...

Ab.

Mellie

The Abs.

Bags Packed

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.sbsun.com/ci_7673554?source=most_viewed

Salaries prompt USFS exodus
Firefighters flee to other agencies
Jason Pesick, Staff Writer

Click the link above for the rest of the article. Ab.

www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22889376-5013404,00.html

Australian (NSW) pilot crashes, dies in water-bomb exercise
Matthew Knott | December 08, 2007

A respected pilot with more than 50 years' experience was killed yesterday when his aircraft crashed into Lake Liddell in NSW's Hunter Valley during a water-bombing exercise.

The death of crop-dusting pilot and warbird enthusiast Colin Pay, 75, of Scone, has stunned the aviation community.

His body was recovered from the wreckage late yesterday afternoon.

Mr Pay's yellow Air Tractor 802 was performing a water-skimming exercise on Lake Liddell, near the New England Highway northwest of Singleton, at 9.40am when it touched the surface of the lake, flipped over and sank.

The single-seat aircraft, designed as a crop-duster, had been converted for fire-bombing operations.

Mr Pay, regarded as one of the Rural Fire Service's best pilots, was practising scooping up water ahead of the bushfire season. He was the only person in the plane when it crashed. (more)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20071209-9999-1n9fire.html

San Diego County Wildfires; Defenses may take hit due to budget ills

By Michael Gardner, Copley News Service | December 9, 2007

SACRAMENTO: California's looming budget crisis threatens to crimp new spending to strengthen the state's wildfire defenses.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and lawmakers will be challenged to close an estimated $10 billion budget gap just as demands grow for more air power, engines and firefighters in the wake of October's deadly firestorms, which claimed 10 lives, 1,700 homes and 368,000 acres in San Diego County alone.

“The question is, how do we come up with more money for firefighting in a year we're going to have a big budget problem?” said Sen. Christine Kehoe, D-San Diego. “How do we? I'm not sure at this point.” (more at the link)

Cal-Fire FFI's start at $2338 base plus 76 hrs planned ot $855 for
a total guaranteed salary per month of $3193.

The salary tops out at $2843 plus POT $1039 = $3882.

You get all this without having to worry about hazard pay or Sunday
differential, plus your portal-to-portal adds up fast on extended
incidents.

NorCal FC

Yes you are right that Firefighter 1's work a 72 hour work week and that FS personnel work, in two weeks, only 8 hours more. But think of it this way: 3 days on, 4 days off, only 24 of those 72 hours are 'hard' hours, and 19 of those 72 hours are OT. Also count in the full medical benefits (medical, dental, and vision) virtually at no cost, start paying into your pension, no charge for staying in the barracks, and all fires are portal to portal.

I believe the Firefighter 1's current salary is in the $2000ish a month category plus those 76 hours of guaranteed OT.

A904G

So for all those who think you got it bad and want to complain, come switch jobs with me. I would love to make $11.01 an hour.

Also I read somewhere on here the complaint about structure protection. I am also a Volunteer with the local rural fire department, so I am both sides of the line. I believe that Wild land firefighters should stick to wild land fires and fire departments should stick with structure fires. But, that is just my opinion.

Shadow

Welcome Shadow. With all due respect, I have a non-fire friend who just retired and moved back to Tennessee where he has elderly family. He bought a house comparable to his house in socal for 1/7 the price. So there's really no comparison of our cost of living with yours. Your low cost of living would probably be the only reason most western firefighters -- who haven't seen the beautiful coves of the Nolichucky and Watauga -- would want to trade places with you. (Western firefighters, it's beautiful country.) Fires don't burn quite the same in your normally damp, deciduous forests either. That may be changing somewhat with your SE drought. But this isn't a forum for p*ssing matches or name calling. We're all fighting fire wherever we are. We're all trying to create our dreams while making ends meet and sending kids to college. Shadow, if you haven't discerned the difference between griping, seeking respect and and trying to find a better way for your family, stick around and watch how it works. I'll be posting some of the reasons firefighter managers give for seeking employment with CalFire later today in advance of tomorrow's meeting.

I understand this discussion may not be relevant or important to non-CA, non-fed firefighters, but it's one of the ongoing threads right now. Ab.

Those R5 fed firefighters who are going to CalFire or thinking about going who haven't taken the Survey, please do so. We'll be tallying things up this afternoon/evening. Actually we've been working on checking data for outliers and internal consistency since yesterday, and eliminating 3 ip's of repeated responses. If we're wrong on this and someone entered their entire modules' data, please verify with us. Otherwise, we're eliminating the questionable responses. Better to err on the conservative side than confound the frequencies results. Ab.

Hope you're doing that. Ab.

Semper Fi and be SAFE, Old Man of the Dept

The Forest Service: What is "the Greatest Good"?

Ab,

I am happy to have known and been hired by Gertrude (Gert) Becker who was identified and interviewed for the Greatest Good centennial film. She even has her own special out-takes on the CD on what it meant to be a "district clerk" and how important her job was to the mission.

Gert worked almost half a century as a Forest Service employee.... That is what the "Forest Service Family" used to be known for..... leadership and direction from below to accomplish the mission and not be unable to call BS when things were going off course.

Gert was known for dressing down anyone for heading down the course of wrong decisions..... She was not afraid and was actually scary sometimes..... She said things like she saw them and didn't hold her punches when appropriately due........ Many past and current leaders of the fire program were hired by her, educated, and sometimes crossed her path...... Several of the past, current, and future leaders of the Forest Service knew her as the leader (and dictator) of the true Forest Service family.

Gert educated and raised Forest Supervisors, District Rangers, Forest and District Fire Management Officers, etc........ some went on to higher positions in the federal government and RO and WO fire management positions....... others went on to successful careers in the private sector.

Ken

The mission of the FS is changing, it is becoming a fire agency in the eyes of the public, the tax payer. How do you explain to a tax payer, who owns a home in the forest that policy prohibits FS from protecting structures because that’s not what we do? Or is it? The tax payer expects a certain level of service, they don't understand preparedness funds verses suppression, they see personnel and equipment and expect a return on their investment. They expect trained professionals to show up and be fire fighters, regardless of the color of the truck and whose land the fire is on.

As for Mellie's question about what a national fire organization would look like, it may already exist, it just needs overhauled. What about a national Master Mutual Aid agreement, similar to California? It could be broken down into regions that correspond with the current GACCS. When a fire starts, the GACC coordinates resources. When resources become taxed surrounding GACCS starting mobilizing resources to the affected GACC. Resources are dispatched based on type, need and availability, and not jurisdiction. NICC would be the coordination between the GACCS. Hopefully the end result would be the closest available resource being dispatched to the incident. The only radical idea here is blurring the lines of jurisdictions. Basically, eliminate all boundaries, and focus on the greater good. The bottom line is, we are providing a service, and the public is the consumer. If we don't provide the level of service the public wants, we will be forced to change what we do and how we do it. I think we have reached that point because managers are denying the shift that is occurring in the FS mission.

On another note, all I keep hearing about is what went wrong in the response to the So Cal Fires. What about what went right?!!! Compared to 2003, fewer homes were lost, fewer acres burned, fewer civilian lives lost, no fire fighter lives lost, and the largest evacuation in state history. At face value I'd say we did pretty darned good, and yes we did learn from 2003. Now lets learn from 2007 and be prepared for the next time.

Best wishes to all.

In norcal

I heard retirement from calfire (90% of pay) is lots better than from the fs (60%
of pay). Is this right? I'm a long way from retirement. Will the state try to get rid
of these kinds of pensions? CA is running quite a deficit.

roadrunner

Just a bit of a FYI. The Plumas District Ranger going to the retention
meeting came from fire. She took the Feather River Shots out on a
tour this season to keep her crewboss qual current. She is part of our
fire family and is actually a good line officer and voice for firefighters.

So she's a good choice to take the trip to Sac for the meeting. :)

Bags packed

Glad to hear it. Jay Perkins (FMO on the Klamath is good; Steve Diaz head the R5 engine captains group is good; Johnny Clem, the R5 hotshots and type 2 handcrews rep is good. Don't know which others will be there, but I hope for good solutions for retention to come out of this.

If you're from R5, thinking of going to CalFire and haven't taken the Survey, please do. Ab.

Analyst, I've been pondering the reasons for low BDF numbers. I also thought of 1) the solidarity/cohesiveness of firefighters having gone through Esperanza together and 2) the strength of the fine fire leadership and forest leadership... High morale and sense of self worth plus recognition go a long way in creating an environment where people want to stay. Lots of comments say the region and the FS just don't care. Ab.

Ab,

I have been receiving a lot of questions as to who is eligible to attend. Some
people think the reunion is only for old fire far*s. That's not true. I had hoped
that all past and present hot shots could get together and share experiences.
Sometimes a lot of good comes out of such a meeting. All past and present
El Cariso Hot Shots are welcome.

Gordon King

email:
gking1 at symbol bak.rr. com (take out the spaces; put in the @)

Readers, contact Gordon if you plan to attend the reunion. He needs to know numbers. Ab.

"On Wednesday December 5th, the Committee held a hearing to examine the role played by compensation consultants in determining the pay packages of senior executives at the largest publicly traded corporations. Corporate governance experts, institutional investors, and compensation consulting firms testified regarding the role of consultants in setting executive pay, efforts to prevent and manage conflicts of interest, and the adequacy of the information available to shareholders and the public."

"During the hearing, Chairman Waxman released a report regarding conflicts of interest at executive compensation firms." (79K pdf file)

With Mark Rey ("former" timber lobbyist in a failed timber industry) leading the ultimate decisions of the Forest Service and appointing the "Chiefs", the future doesn't look good in terms of outsourcing, contracting, and selling out the mission and history of the Forest Service.

"Where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question shall always be answered from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run." ~~ Gifford Pinchot

/s/ Follow the Money

Regarding comments from the survey and comments from people who have emailed me: Several from other regions report having CalFire interviews for the Captain position. Several from other regions report seriously looking at other Agencies than the FS (BLM, NPS) to seek their permanent career path.

A firefighter 1 makes a little over 8 dollars an hour and you work 72 hours a week
so you get 19 hours of ot on their plan. You may bring home more money, but you
will work tons of hours to get it. You will work, in a week, 8 hours short of what
you would work in 2 weeks with the Forest Service.

Sure, schedule B Captains and some Engineers can make 100,000 in the year but
they will have put in sometimes twice the hours of a USFS contemporary.

Please dont think everything is equal, it is not. You may earn more but you will put
in many more hours with CDF than you do in the Forest Service.

For what its worth, I am a former R-5er who left for CDF a few years ago and am
thinking about returning to the Forest Service.
\
James

As much as I'd like to say I love my job, I don't. I don't like my job when I make half as much as everyone else on a fire on MY forest. I hate that I have to work 100 hrs of overtime in a single pay period just to make other agencies' base wages. I hate that I wear the same uniform as a Rec Tech. I hate that I don't have a fire patch on my uniform. I hate that during the winter, I make less than people on unemployment. I hate that while I make less than people on unemployment I have to hike in the snow to burn piles all day. I guess that I'm burned out. I guess that for all my hard work and sacrifice to this agency I can never afford the mortgage on a median priced home in this area. I hate that after 7 years with this agency, I am willing to accept a seasonal position with Cal Fire just to survive.

I hope that the powers that be will read this an understand that if something isn't done with this meeting on the 10th everyone is going to suffer. And by that I mean, the people that jump ship will be working for a new agency, and the people that stick around are going to be forced to pick up the slack. Get it together Forest Service...you have an AMAZING workforce!!! Use it to your advantage!!!! Don't continue to lose the people you spend so much money to train! Take care of the folks that have sacrificed so much to work for you for so long! It's time to show some love to the folks that do so much for so little.

Signed,
Havoc

A few questions if you have a minute.

I applied for several positions on usajobs, it confused me though because of the amount of positions for entry level, (aid etc.) alot of them have the same job number but list different locations. should i apply to all of them? Also, in trying to be persistent - who should i contact to express my interest? the offices of the seven locations that i picked? human resources?

also, with all of the stuff going on this season with the different agencies, how likely do you think it would be for me to get a position? I applied for pretty much all western states - Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana etc. I have no previous wildland fire experience, but have been a volunteer firefighter for 5 years with some training with that. ie. firefighter 1, hazmat, rescue tech, emt etc etc.

any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Adam Keeney

I'll put anyone who has the answers in touch with Adam.
Added on 12/8: Thanks to the two people whose messages I have forwarded on. Ab.

normbc, Rod, ms (I hear you), et al,

In my opinion and from what I've heard at all levels, the NUT the FS & DOI is trying to CRACK is

• how can Fed Fire (especially the FS) divest itself of fire suppression? plus
• how, especially, can it divest itself of anything to do with structures and interface? or
• how can it get fire management and planning back in Natural Resources and only NR?

I don't know how the 2 NIMO teams would fit in if the FS divested itself of the major part of the current fire program. Obviously 2 would not be enough.

I don't know where we get the trained, experienced highly motivated wildland firefighters that would make up NIMO teams in the future without a pipeline of training and on-the-ground wildland firefighting experience.

And think on this, NO ONE that I have heard of is building the National Coordination System for interstate and intrastate communication, resources movement, etc that would be necessary for NIMO Teams to operate effectively if the land management agencies succeed in divesting themselves of Wildland Fire on the Interface. It would have to come under something like International Association of Fire Chiefs or something. It's not in NIMS! At least if some organization or agency were tasked and started developing that structure and that process we'd quickly see what's needed next to build it to replace what FIRE within the Land Management Agencies has been doing on an ever larger scale over the last 30 years.

I'm not sure anyone on up the FS organizational chain is really thinking of the future of fed fire/all risk per se in terms of what it should/could be for the nation. I think they're only thinking of it in narrow little terms of Natural Resources and what FIRE will not continue to be. (By Gawd, we will make them comply.) If the NR line officers had it worked out and saw the big picture, people at the Forest and RO and WO levels would be talking to firefighters about what is to come and how the rest will be protected.

OK, there's nothing that says land management agencies that supervised interagency wildland fire in the past -- wherever it occurred and they had responsibility -- have to continue to supervise fire on the huge, drought-impacted, fuel-laden, bug-ridden interface, one-way-in-one-way-out road, with STRUCTURES and PEOPLE! that exists today.

However, it seems the USA PUBLIC should be told up front that there will be few FS or fed suppression forces next season and the organization of those forces will be going away because what's the point with only a pissy little fire program and where's the $$ to continue running it large??? We're talking DEATH of a national federal fire program --with its coordinating capabilities-- by attrition, by thoughtlessness, because NR people don't understand what the fire organization does and has done. What a bass ackwards way to do it. Gawd, almost makes me feel like a conspiracy theorist. Unfortunately, I think those in charge are smart enough to think up the current scenario intentionally. They're just going down the road, trying to go back to NR, get their agency's finances in order, demonstrate the control they think they should have... not realizing you can never go back and it's better to go forward with communication and integrity and responsibility, to share and ask questions and see where the blind spots are. To me this is a national security issue! Doesn't anyone else see it?

Someone needs to get busy building the interstate and intrastate parts of a national fire organization!!!!

ms, I see what you're getting at about creating the alternative fire organization now before the next firestorm... Before the options, the wisdom, the systems, the resources are gone. Tell me what I can do and I'll organize that part.

Readers, comments???

Mellie

ncal supt

S

Greetings, Abs and all.

At a recent FMO meeting our district fire staffs presented our forest fire
staff with the results of our own survey on who had applied for the Cal
Fire captains positions. ( I know you will not be able to use this
information for your survey.) I feel compelled to get this information out
in the hope that someone attending the Dec. 10th meeting sees it and heeds
the message that it holds. Even if all these irreplaceable employees do
not get jobs this time there is always the next round. This is the results
of our survey.
* 3  GS-9 Chief Officers
* 7  GS-8 Captains
* 4  GS-7 FEOs
Ours is a relatively small Northern Cal. forest, if we loose these
personnel our fire management program will be annihilated !
Thank you for your time.

CHAPPY

I've gotten the same info from someone else on your forest. I'll pass it on to the appropriate person, who is probably also reading here. Ab.

Thanks Lucky Lindy. Good job. Tell everyone thanks and well done.
Readers, please remember the WFF in your donations as we approach year end. Feel free to donate now, whether a General fund donation, 52 Club, or to the Santa Helper fund! Donations made this year (and any year!) are tax deductible. WFF is non-profit. In a sense, WFF is us, they serve our families' needs. They are our safety blanket without regard to agency or whether private sector, fed, state, vollie or county. They fill a real and critical need and let this Ab breathe more easily at night during fire season. Ab.

Thanks for the info, Mellie. The matrix helps me understand the differences.

FYI: The Cascade Complex APA is posted on the Lessons Learned website.
It's not in the searchable database yet, but you can find a link to it here:
www.wildfirelessons.net/WhatsNew.aspx

I like the search utility here, too: www.wildfirelessons.net/Reviews.aspx
I hope we'll be able to find it there for a quick find.

mcleod

That's a good search utility at Lessons Learned by state and/or year and/or incident.
You can always use the search utility on the wlf.com hotlist as well. It's very good with keywords more than 3 characters. We're posting links to all reports as they come to us. Ab.

The good thing about the numbers is they trend in concert with forest fire
populations. Except for BDF which is on the low side, which is better than
an unrealistic high result. Overall the numbers could lead one to believe in
the accuracy of this survey. Admittedly, I was a little worried the results
were going to be skewed. Appreciate everyone being responsible in taking
the survey.

As ab said, if anyone is missing, please get them in, especially before the
10th.

thanks for sharing ab's. Was an update planned for Sunday the 9th?

ms

Yes, we will be updating on the 9th. We'll be keeping it simple and straightforward. We are scrutinizing results and IPs as they come in. People are being responsible. Good job. Carry on. Ab.

Stay tuned - the DOI agencies have utilized the same vehicle to speed fuel treatments. We'll be hearing from them shortly.

Old Boot

NorCal Tom had since added a "tongue in cheek". Ab.

Just wanted to pass this along. Maybe everyone has seen it already maybe not. Retention strategy--Briefing Paper from 9/26 (103 K doc file) This meeting seems to be more about the retention problems in "SOCAL" than about the retention problems in "California". I really do wish I could live my life as a bureaucratic ostrich like so many in the Exec pay grades.

FWFSA: I am a member, one of the many that has Casey's back as he has ours. I support feverishly. I am now married and tired... tired of being paid $20,000 less a year, because I drive a green truck. My app is in, my bags are packed, and talk is just that, talk.

To everyone walking into that meeting: Put your money where your mouth is and stop being an ostrich.

To Casey: kick butt, take names. If I can submit a wish list. Portal to portal and Kelly's are nice, but there is another half of the state that needs to be thought about too. How about a pay raise so I don't have to worry about feeding my family all winter. A California Locality might be a novel idea or a series and pay adjustment like LEOs too.. Why do we just look at putting Socal on Kelly's and think that solves the problem?

Sorry Ab I'm all over the place. Recognizing the problem is step 1 to fixing the problem.. And step 1 took how long?

Thanks,
Staying Packed in Norcal

This was posted on 11/25 along with the Revised version: Revised Retention Briefing Paper from 11/13 (116 K doc file)

Here's the updated tally of those who are pretty far along in the process of getting hired by CalFire. At the moment there are 61 CA fed firefighters who have reported in via the survey. 50 are FS on forests; 11 of them are "Other", BLM, NPS, FS sj, cache, etc. These are our "journeyman/journeywoman" firefighters, mostly in GS 8-11 range. They are engine captains, T2 handcrew supes/captains, hotshot supes/captains, AFMOs, our type 3, 4, 5 ICs. They are those important for initial attack, catching them when they're small! You know what happens when we don't catch them...

Readers, I know this list is incomplete because I know of several more people on some of the norcal forests. No doubt it's incomplete from socal as well. If you have R5 friends who are applying for CalFire positions -- at any level -- email them and let them know; get them to take our survey, please.

# of people with interview dates (for CalFire Captain position) by forest

5 ANF
2 BDF
9 CNF
1 ENF
1 INF
2 KNF
4 LNF
8 LPF
4 MNF
2 PNF
5 SHF
2 SRF
2 STF
1 TMU
2 TNF

Fire Stations everywhere, Bring Them Flags Down on the 7th!

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20250

President George W. Bush designated December 7, 2007, Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day. On December 7, 2007, America will honor those brave individuals who made the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our homeland, and we recognize those veterans who, with strength and resolve, defended our Nation and advanced the cause of freedom. As we fly the flag at half staff tomorrow, December 7, we honor not only their memory, but also the sacrifice being made by all our Armed Forces and citizens defending our Nation. Our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families.

Chuck Conner
Acting Secretary

Staying with the WWII theme, If you ever want to watch a good movie that highlights the importance of leadership, go out and rent or purchase the HBO series "Band of Brothers".

letterman

Normbc9

From the Quotes to Live By page:

Often said by many after another court ruling stopping a thinning project:
"All fuels get treated eventually -- one way or another."

Ab, add "tongue in cheek", in the spirit of the quotes list! Cheers!

NorCal Tom

It's also posted on the FAM website with the AAR. Hopefully it will be posted on the Lessons Learned site as well. Link to FAM is in the body of the letter below. I can't say enough how hopeful I feel as a stress psychologist on seeing this lessons learned process actually demonstrated at a very high level of the fire organization. An opportunity was seized to evaluate and learn and share that learning widely. It indicates to me that someday FIRE will truly be a "high reliability organization" at all levels of the organization and at every opportunity. We're not quite there yet, but we're on the right trajectory.

Thanks All! Kudos to Broyles and his team. It takes courage and leadership! May we all demonstrate it in like manner!

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 5100/6730
Date: December 4, 2007
Subject: Cascade Complex Accident Prevention Analysis

The Cascade Complex Accident Prevention Analysis is now released and posted on the web. This
report examined the circumstances surrounding three events: the entrapment of two fire support
contractors, implementation of the “stay in place plan” for the Cascade Complex Incident
Command Post, and the decision to remain at that same ICP after the event. The process used to
review and investigate the accidents analyzed in the report may not be familiar to many of you.

The Accident Prevention Analysis (APA) process has several unique characteristics:

The APA process is designed to meet the intent of the Forest Service Serious Accident
Investigation (SAI) process but incorporates the Doctrinal approach of principal-centered
performance rather than rule-focused compliance.

The process forces a focus on the ‘upstream’ culture and the organization that influenced
performance. This goes beyond the proximal root cause that is typically labeled a causal
factor in other types of investigations.

Using an APA instead of the more typical SAI process does not relieve anyone of
accountability for their actions. Had there been any evidence of a willful disregard for human
safety, the APA process would have been terminated and an Administrative and/or Law
Enforcement Investigation would have been instigated.

The process values learning over blaming. The analysis is sufficiently complete to enable the
reader to understand what the decisions were made at the time, why they were made and how
those decisions seemed right, making perfect sense at the time. This is very powerful because
the players in this event were our most qualified and competent. If their decisions and actions
made sense to them at the time, it is very likely similar decisions and actions will make sense
again to others unless we share this experience and learn from it.

Enclosed is a question and answer document that further elaborates on this review. I encourage
every line officer and firefighter to read the report, discuss it, and learn from it. You can download
the report at: www.fs.fed.us/fire, under the heading: “What’s New.”

Using a new process is never easy, especially when we are learning and applying what we learn at
the same time. For their willingness to facilitate the APA I want to acknowledge the leadership,
energy, and enthusiasm of the entire review team—thank you for your efforts.

To all of the people interviewed for the story—thank you. Your accounts and reflections make
meaning out of timelines and events. It is my hope that the story documented here serves to
stimulate thinking and actions that contribute to us all being safe in our work.

/s/ Cathrine L. Beaty
Deputy Regional Forester

I have been reading the posts on this especially the one dated 12/05 from rosevalley; and I’m curious as to the meditation/breathing exercise, that he said the superintendent had used and adapted from Ted Putnam. Also interested from a safety perspective; people’s ideas on briefings. Thought there were some good points brought up.

Leo Drapeau
Safety Program Coordinator
Forest Protection Division
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

When it comes to Safety Remember…
"A rapidly escalating fire has the right of way, and..
"If the fire is in range, so are you."

Leo, That post is generating some email traffic behind the scenes. Readers, does anyone know which crew used that briefing method? On another note, nice quotes at the bottom of your email... I'll have to see if your two quotes are on the "Quotes to Live By" page. Oh yeah, they're attributed to "Charlie Drag-Mcleod!" Haw Haw. Ab.

Since questions and comments about boots come up so routinely, it's good to have this topic on the hotlist forum. So I've posted this question there. www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1867 Hopefully people will reply there as well.

If you're not registered, please do so. Alternatively, if you want to email Ab, I'll copy/paste your reply to this hotlist thread. Ab.

I got this matrix of methodology options in doc form. It came round-robin.
I just formatted it in html since you asked:

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/from-aar-to-sai.htm

Very cool for keeping things straight. The APA (Accident Prevention Analysis)
was called the Peer Review initially. Steve Holdsambeck developed that
process. FLA (Facilitated Learning Analysis) was developed by Paul
Chamberlain.

Mellie

Thanks Ab for posting...

Not sure what the perfect solution is but Centralization may be best. Law Enforcement
is not exactly rosy as a stove pipe organization. Centralization has it's fall-backs,
particularly budget related. Our office has to buy our LEO equipment from regular
funds in order for them to do their job more efficiently. Also, please do not stereotype
line officers as out of the loop on fire. I am one and am heavily involved in fire, both
RX and wildland. I am continually adding to my fire quals and have attended your list
of courses within the last 10 years. I am far from alone, but the world is changing.
There are issues. But we as firefighting professionals (that's all of us from the
seasonal/ 13-13, PFT, contractor, etc.) are a smart, dedicated bunch and we'll figure
out what's best for all of us.

District Ranger

Is there some simple place that lays out the options and includes
implications? Someone asked me and I'm having trouble keeping things
straight.

Thanks in advance, I hope.

Tahoe Terrie

Jason, perhaps someone will call you. The problem is that most who are leaving or have left the FS love it and would not be leaving/have left if they had not felt there was no alternative for themselves and their families. Ab.

"I’m wondering if yactak could share how, who, and what a person
needs to do to get signed up with a personal services contract since the COs
I’ve talked to, for the most part, believe the AD system is working well for
the FS and knows of no reason to do anything any different."

There is not enough room on this forum to explain how ludicrous the above
COs' statement is.

This is the same attitude and approach administration leadership has taken
toward the retention issue and the overall dysfunction of the Forest Service.
"Hear no evil, see no evil ..... and by all means keep your head stuck securely
in the sands of ignorance and denial." And as Lobotomy just posted, don't
bother to even utilize the right terminology, much less understand it.

Nor is there enough space here to detail exactly how toothless a tiger the AD
Firefighter Association has become. The ADFA was formed in 2003 in response
to a myriad of problems and issues relating to the AD program, none - repeat
none - of which have been solved.

I'll let previously active and very supportive ADFA members such as NMAirBear
address that, if they wish, as I am not only extremely disappointed but angry
as well regarding how little, if anything, the ADFA Board has done since to
support their ADFA membership.

The current ADFA Board could take 1 or 2 pages out of Casey's FWFSA book as a
road map toward recovering some of the momentum and initiative we had going a
few years ago. You may not be be liked by agency management, but you will be
effective.

Hugh Carson
ex-Chair, AD Firefighter Association

The Forest Service, Washington Office intends to award on a sole source basis under the authority of 41 USC 253 (c)(1), a contract with base items totaling approximately $1,858,100.00, and potential additional option items totaling approximately $2,176,000.00 with Dialogos International, LLC of Cambridge, MA for work identified as: Leadership Alignment and Mission Clarity. Two efforts have been identified to initiate this effort; working with the overall Forest Service Leadership and work within Fire and Aviation Management. This work will bring about leadership realignment between the Executive Leadership Team, Regional Foresters and the rest of the National Leadership Team to create direct and sustainable impact on the culture and safety of the Forest Service.

The contemplated efforts are follow-on acquisitions to continue efforts for large system change. The Dialogos model for large-system change is known as the Spiral Model for Transformation. The program will take a step-by-step approach to build on the wisdom embedded in the organization and produce strong engagement and deliberate experimentation and evoke new levels of coordinated action. As described in FAR 6.302-1, there is only one responsible source and no other services will satisfy agency requirements. This notice is not a Request for Proposals, nor does it represent a commitment by the Forest Service to pay for any costs incurred by the preparation and submission of data or any other costs incurred in response to this notification. No solicitation document is available.

Hundekot

KJoesph is right. And he echoes what many have been saying for years. A centralized All-Risk Management Branch within the Forest Service is needed. The Forest Service does have history of centralizing large functions when mismanagement or at least inconsistent management exists. The best example is the Forest Service Law Enforcement Group. After Line Officers told sworn Forest Service Law Enforcement Officers, what to and what not to investigate, the LE organization was centralized directly to the Chief. Remember the 20/20 episode in the 90's?

One of these days something might happen that will lead to centralization. Forest Service should be proactive and get out in front of the issue instead of always reacting. For the meeting the week of Dec 10th to happen, it took letters from House and Senate leaders (thanks FWFSA) asking what R-5 was doing about the issue.

How many Superintendents, Single Resource Bosses, or higher would still be employed if you handled an emergency and or large fire event without any kind of forward thinking, planning and implementing decisions. While on the same day, upper management spends a good part of each work day reacting to issues they should of addressed and staffed out prior to the crisis. What gets me the most is when I hear; "462's have no planning or project staffing skills with the work they do"... HUH? When you’re responsible for the lives of other human beings in one of the most dangerous professions, you live in the world of looking out in front of what might happen today that could affect my employees.

Most non-fire Line Officers and other professionals are good people, good hard workers, they mean well. However firefighters and non fire professionals are not on the same page and one should not expect them to be on the same page. Each comes to work with a different set of objectives and when you mix the two together it can in my opinion, lead to disaster. We train differently. When was the last time you saw a Line Officer at S-230, S-212, S-330, S-339. Or an IHC Superintendent taking NEPA and FOIA training. We socialize differently. We react to roadblocks differently. We speak a different language. I’m not saying one group is better than the other, just identifying the fact these two different groups are forced together in an unnatural chain of command with two different objectives. They have no concepts, or as some would say "slides" as to what we are even thinking about and what the job is all about. Just like LEOs supervise LEOs, fire leaders should lead Firefighters. Even some Chief Officers, who are years removed from module management, force themselves to stay turned into the needs on the ground. How does a Line Officer who majored in Soil Science or Hydrology do this effectively?

Having a non-fire person out on the incident, standing around in clean greens and yellows with (and here is the most important part) complete authority over the IC (read the REDBOOK on what an Agency Administrator does) and in most cases the day-to-day supervision of that IC, is a sign of complete dysfunction. It’s like having the Los Angeles County Parks and Recreation Staff Officer or County Board Supervisor, supervising and providing oversight to an LA County BC who is IC of a fire ripping through the Malibu’s, ain’t gonna happen.

Non fire employees simply do not understand how to manage fire employees and a complex fire program, period. I’d rather have Line Officers doing what the taxpayers want them to do which is to focus on recreation, resources and post fire restoration issues. They should not be forced to waste time learning how to write a delegation letter or how to do a WFSA. When non-fire people try and manage fire employees, it doesn't work. It might have in the early 1900's, but not today. This is not a slap in the face to non-fire Line Officers such as District Rangers and Forest Supervisors. They’re stuck in the middle, forced to manage a program they have no concept of managing. I bet if asked anonymously 2/3’s, maybe even as high as 80% would like to see the Fire program managed in a centralized organization to the Chief. The other 20% are just plain clueless.

Centralize the fire program now. Do it before something bad happens, before the congressional hearing on the next tragedy, before the FOIAs, before the dysfunctionality is being reported on 60 minutes.

ms

Normbc9

I did a little back stepping --nice search feature Ab-- to see if I could find a
little more info on Linda Szczepanik. She was the IC on the Windmill Complex fire,
Montana, back in August 2003. I was one of her dozer resources (JD 750C-6 way).
I thought she ran an outstanding show and still do.

Anyway, I happened to scroll through some of the post for September 2003...
Ouch! And here I went and chose contractor as my user name.. For Life!!

Please Ab, can I change it to Ostrich, so I can put my head in.....

<grin>, totally all in fun. Except the part about Linda.

And Linda, this is Hi, from that smart mouth cat skinner on the Windmill.

contractor

Gon'na be hard to search on contractor and find your posts in 4 or 5 years time. Now ostrich would show up as completely yours on search. Haw Haw.

Did you see the IC info about Linda being the first female on the IMWTK page? Ab.

"The U.S. Forest Service has bought $600,000 worth of "Electronic Control Devices" without any training program, rules for use or even a written explanation as to why the devices are needed, according to agency records posted today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). The devices, known as Tasers, are sitting in storage and cannot be issued because the agency has yet to develop a training course."

Wonder where the $600,000+ came from in a budget starved USFS?

www.commondreams.org/news2007/1204-04.htm

Hundekot

DHS? There's funding for more LEOs. Not enough money for guns so they're substituting tasers??? Tongue in cheek. Ab.

This one will hurt...........................

Today, the Ninth Circuit issued a decision in Sierra Cluub v. Bosworth
which reversed the Eastern District of California and invalidated the
Hazardous Fuels CE which had been adopted by the Forest Service in June
2003 as part of the President's Healthy Forests Initiative. The Circuit
held that the Forest Service's adoption of the Fuels CE violated NEPA
because the agency "failed to assess properly the significance of the
hazardous fuels reduction categorical exclusion and thus it failed to
demonstrate that it made a 'reasoned decision' to promulgate the Fuels CE
based on relevant factors and information." Following its invalidation of
the CE, the Circuit remanded the case to the district court and instructed
it to issue an order enjoining the FS from implementing any hazardous fuels
CE projects authorized after the initiation of this lawsuit in October 2004
"pending its completion of an adequate assessment of the significance of
the categorical exclusion from NEPA."

See attached file (146K pdf file)

TC

Ab,

I got this below. Does this mean we're back in some weird-a** kind of hiring
system that takes several years to work through? (tongue in cheek)

My niece is thinking of trying.

Maybe this is something simple and I'm just conditioned it's going to be a snafu.

Todd

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ASC has officially taken over temporary hiring. They will open the "open
and continuous" vacancy announcements (basically using the old o & c
vacancy announcements). These announcements will be posted on the ASC
website under "employment" after Dec. 17th. When we are out recruiting for
these temp. positions, we will want to let people know what locations to
list in their application just like before. Make sure to remind
applicants to re-certify so they stay current in the system. This way they
will continue to receive updated information if the process changes.
Below is a sample of temp (fire) announcements. Note on the far right
(scroll over) there is a conversion column. The FS#### is the PD # you
should be using. Here is the link to the ASC/employment site for the
complete information http://fsweb.hcm.fs.fed.us/employment/temp.php

ASC's timeline for Temporary hiring
|-----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------|
| Supervisors conduct outreach | Beginning December 4 |
|-----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------|
| Temporary OCR Announcements open | December 17 |
|-----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------|
| First day delegated examining referral list | December 26 || can be issued | |
|-----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------|

Barbara Leach
Human Resources Specialist (Recruitment)
Mendocino, Klamath, Six Rivers, and Shasta-Trinity National Forests

The best and most effective crew briefing i ever saw was with a montana hotshot crew as a division supervisor. I wandered into their crew briefing one morning, with the intent of prodding them along to get out on the line, and instead was just amazed at the depth of information and crew participation/ involvement that occurred during their shift briefing.

I was so impressed that i asked the superintendent if i could attend additional briefings and did so for the next few days. I also attended one of the crew AARs. the briefings went as followed, if i remember correctly (its been a few years):

The superintendent has one of his module leaders and a crewmember attend the daily shift briefing with him. he made sure to get a copy of the shift plan for all three.

After the daily briefing the superintendent expected that the shift plans be circulated among the crew. When the crew gathered for their shift briefing (always at the drop point on this fire), the superintendent started things off with a meditation/breathing exercise, that he said he had adapted from Ted Putnam. This took a couple of minutes and i have to admit it was rather strange at first. But after a couple of briefings i found that it calmed me and helped me concentrate on the briefing. (The superintendent said that this was the intended effect, but that realistically not every crewmember participated all the time.) After the meditation the superintendent gave an overview of the fire situation. The crewmember, who attended the daily briefing, then gave the crew the weather/fire wx forecast.

The superintendent then talked specifically about the crews line assignment next the module leader discussed the fire behavior implications relating to the weather and to the crew's assignment. The crewmember then talked about the safety concerns for the assignment and gave the general safety message from the shift plan.

All the while the crew was being briefed there were no questions asked. I thought that this was wrong and asked the superintendent, who said that the protocol was to wait until the information was given before asking questions.

The crew briefing ended with the superintendent giving a short synopsis of everything covered and then asking the the crew to visualize, eyes closed, what the day's events were going to bring. Definitely different! This took a couple of minutes as well the superintendent then opened things up for discussion and questions. This resulted in a pretty good conversation for a few minutes.

The superintendent asked if there were any other questions, he reminded the crew that if things changed or were vastly different from what they had discussed or if they were uncomfortable, that they were to ask their module leader to provide another briefing (i never saw this situation happen) and then it was off to work.

He deliberately stayed away from the fire camp rumor stuff, (although crewmembers did ask about these things) and the "chit chat" stuff in the shift plan and daily briefing, figuring the crewmembers could read it on their own. He was very specific in briefing on the mission at hand. The superintendent said that sometimes he intentionally left things out of the briefings just to see if the crew would catch it and were paying attention. He said, though, that as often as not the crewmembers would come up with an idea or something that he hadn't considered or covered. Also, no questions were considered off base, as he felt that if someone was worrying about something, they needed to get an answer so that they wouldn't be distracted while on the line.

Needless to say, it was totally unlike anything or any briefing i had ever been to. I had the opportunity to talk with most of the crewmembers while on the line and asked their opinion of the briefing format. Most liked it but didn't always get into the meditation, visualization stuff. They all liked the fact that they got to attend the daily briefing with the superintendent a couple of times during the season, and that they all got a chance to see the daily shift plan. Most said that they didn't like having to do their part of the briefing to the crew, but that it got easier the 2nd and subsequent times they did it. they almost all felt that by moving the crew away from camp to do the crew briefing and by waiting to ask questions, they were able to better concentrate on the material presented. They also said that they knew where they "fit in", felt that they had some "ownership" into what was going on and that they didn't feel information was being withheld from them.

As a follow up, i received a christmas card with a yearend season report from the crew that winter. Not surprisingly this crew had no lost time injuries or vehicle accidents that summer.

I have not worked with this crew again and have yet to see any briefing that remotely compared to this. I too am interested in how other good briefings are conducted.

rosevalley

Nice catch Stanley. See Melissa's post as well. It came in last night. Those Foundation folks work overtime to get the info out. Ab.

Lurker here...

I've heard rumors the same about the land management agencies pulling
out of fire, as early as last year this time there were discussions that filtered
out and down. Fire is a big part of all the budgets and a big see-saw in
expenditures and reimbursements goes on every year. We're being told
now that it won't happen again, so who steps up in the middle of a hot
season?

Maybe it would be better for the Land Management Agencies to be out.
They could ask for and get a budget for everything but fire. Fire could be
separate. Money allocated by Congress for fire could go to fire. Congress
could also see what money it takes to keep the national Forests, Grasslands
and Parks managed.

Question is, who or what takes over fire and all that money? How do we
know the standard will remain high?

Rod

Gizmo

Dec 12th? Ab.

Interesting read on smoke and carbon monoxide. Important thing
to factor in next time we're confronted with ...

... Should we stay or should we go?

Lots to think about.

Last Shovel

thanks

the cynic

Thank you.

Scott Whitmire

Thanks, Scott, I corrected that on my post. Ab.

And the State wasn't capable of hooking the Zaca
before it went into Unified Command.

DM

I'm looking for anything I can find on the topic of good briefings to
wildland firefighters. Know of any good locations that really cover
briefings?

Thanks

Kenny

This whole series of USFS communications indicates to me they are planning a
pull out from the fire business soon.

the one from the WO, posted last August 13 about foaming-wrapping structures...
structure-protection07.doc (55K doc file)

07_NRCGMemo_StructureFire_Protection.doc (51 K doc file)
07_NRCG_ProtectingEntities_Matrix.doc (33K doc file)
07_NRCG_StructureFire_Protection.doc (54 K doc file)
structure-protection/2000.IDL.to.landowners.pdf (736K pdf file)

Normbc9

Adding to what Casey said, due to the work of FWFSA on portal to portal and other issues, we saw some Forests look at options and implemented 24 hour ordered stand-by staffing (basically p to p) during recent fires and wind events in So Cal. You probably would not have seen local Fire Managers push this and local Forest Supervisors approve it, if not for the work FWFSA has done to date trying to get it pushed through Congress. Fire Chiefs developed the idea to order stand-by for 24 hours, however never forget it took a Forest Supervisor (a Line Officer) to approve it last month.

That's the thing that amazes me the most. The spirit and progressive thinking of Wildland Firefighters and Chiefs at the Forest level. While the RO and GACCs were sitting back, famously saying once again “use good judgment on staffing and spending”, the same words we heard during the 2003 fire siege, local Chief Officers said thanks and get out of the way, we will figure this out on our own. And Dam-it when it came to 24 hour staffing, they did.

You just wait until the Team Meetings and Chief Officer Workshop to see where this could (will) lead to. Ordered 24 hour stand-by of all assigned to large fire events (team activations). Sounds like P to P to me, all before Pelosi even calls for a vote. All within the rules of the NFFE Master Agreement, the Forest Service Manual and documented on a Delegation of Authority. Who knew? Even some ADs out there and members of the AD Association benefited from the 24 hour staffing pattern last month and should offer thanks to FWFSA for laying the bricks years ago on portal to portal.

I know for a fact the ANF implemented 24 hour staffing last month because neighboring Forest(s) were implementing it. Imagine the pressure placed on the ANF Forest Supervisor when she heard what the neighbors were up to as winds were gusting to 60 mph outside her window. She had no choice and she made the right decision. Nobody would have implemented 24 hour staffing pay last month if FWFSA had not been pushing this for 5 years.

So things are not critical mass just yet as long as we keep FWFSA working the big boys and girls on the hill hard, and Fed Fire Chiefs look outside the box and test the waters and stick up for and support Firefighters on the ground.

The sprit of 24 hour staffing last month and the potential ordered stand-by staffing changes this coming Fire Season proves that we have learned and benefited from each other here at wlf.com, our forum. We learned from the leadership from our association, FWFSA.

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday in town that had nothing to do with Wildland Firefighting, however it certainly is applicable these days. It said: Tough Times Never Last, Tough People Do. With that said; To Casey, Preas, Lobo, the ab’s and to those Federal Wildland Firefighters who are going to stick it out----> Thanks! Stand Strong! Keep Fighting the Good Fight!

Kermit

Midwest AFMO: With all due respect, you don't know how much your post makes me smile. Let me clarify for those who have been away from theysaid for the last 3 or more weeks.

This survey has a specific purpose:
It was created first and foremost to see how many Forest Service firefighters are leaving R5, most importantly, how many are leaving hard-hit southern CA to go to CalFire during its most recent hiring round. We had heard that many were applying, and some managers from SoCal --some of whom are also members of the FWFSA-- were concerned that a large exodus would happen in April 08, just as fire season is seriously rekindling there. As those who work in R5 know, it's been hard to fill vacancies in this region, taking 18 months or more in many cases. That's improved now with open rosters to expedite the process, but having boots on the ground with experienced managers to safely lead them next spring is still a critical issue.

As of 10/21 there were 648 CalFire vacancies and Forest Service firefighters are being solicited by CalFire.

Many who are applying and have their job interview for captain in the next few weeks are from

• the Angeles NF (4 respondents have interviews),
• the Cleveland National NF (6 respondents have interviews) and the
• Los Padres NF (8 respondents have interviews)
• Lassen NF (4 respondents have interviews)
• Mendocino (4 respondents have interviews)
• there are others in smaller numbers...

CalFire Engineer position openings come up next, in Dec/Jan. Who we are going to be loosing soon are our module leaders and AFMOs. Not sorting on degree of interest in leaving, we currently have

• 18 respondents that are GS 10/11;
• 43 that are GS 9;
• 75 that are GS 8;
• 36 that are GS 7;
• 20 that are GS 6;
• plus some lower and higher, even someone from the WO.

We get new responses daily.

History of the survey: The survey grew out of a simple a tally last month of how many were leaving, their

• forest,
• grade,
• module,
• calfire position applied for (if Captain, whether they'd gotten an interview date for the Captain's position) and
• any comments.

Firefighters were emailing responses to Ab (me) and I was entering the data on an excel spreadsheet, which was very time consuming. (See the beginning posts on this about 11/24.) Original Ab stepped in and automated the process. Posted issues to theysaid and emails to Ab became our "Focus Group" for the list of reasons for leaving. We figured that if the retention group meeting on the 10th of Dec had some idea of the major issues, then perhaps a clearer strategy for working on retaining firefighters could follow. When theysaiders outside of R5 and the FS wanted to participate, we added some categories to accommodate them also. Those that don't feel the survey or the issues involve them right now, don't do it.

Some surveys are done with a specific group of people to elicit specific information, as this one was. You don't give an exit survey to everyone in the world, but to those who have left. We wanted to do it before they go, determine the demographic of those leaving and their issues and get a feel for how it might impact those fighting fire in R5 as FS firefighters.

Thanks...........Diaz

The summarized (tallied) results will be posted here. Ab.

From JPH:

To Shivaun, I have a copy of the investigative report that was prepared by perhaps NFPA, if you would like info email me at
<snip, Ab forwarded the contact info>

From MG:

http://academic.regis.edu/wsutton/Web Site 2004/Black tiger gulch.html

From JM:

Shivaun-
I do not have any photos but there is a video made about the Black Tiger
Fire (NFES 1247, PMS 706). The video is geared at informing interface
homeowners of the dangers of wildfire and mitigating hazards. The footage
is post burn.

Bill Rogge, Smokey Bear Hotshots, 1977. First year after probation 1976. Engines, Helitack, and ‘Shot filler, Smokey Bear and Sacramento IHC’s on the Lincoln NF in NM. Now resides as a NM State District FMO since 1993 in Capitan, (you know, where Smokey Bear is buried?) NM……

BR

Thanks, Bill. I'll added it. Ab.

Sad news for the loss of the retired Forest Supervisor on the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forests, Sonny O'Neal. He was a fantastic leader and is sorely missed in our community. Draft press release is attached, a news article should be in tonight's Wenatchee World 12/4/07.

Sonny's funeral will be December 10th, 2007 in Wenatchee. Please note his family has asked for any memorial gifts to be sent to Columbia Breaks Fire Interpretive Center; Chelan-Douglas Land Trust; and National Fallen Firefighter Foundation. -

Heather Murphy, retired USFS wildlife biologist/Fire Resource Advisor

Sorry for your loss. Ab.

Thanks,

SoCal CalFire

You mean this one? ca-firefighter-salaries.pdf (357K pdf file) Ab.

All this talk about people leaving the USFS to Calfire. The OPM passed the Federal Workforce Flexibility Act back in 2004, authorizing not only relocation bonuses, for those who move to take a new job, but Retention bonuses for those employees likely to leave the USFS to another agency, if they sign Service agreements. Yet the FS is reluctant to use this authority, which it already has. I wonder why the Forests that are losing so many folks don't just offer retention bonuses? it's already approved, they just have to do the paperwork, and some would stay......Just google "USFS retention bonus", and the authority from OPM comes right up. Must be too much work........

-MJ

(PLI = Professional Liability Insurance)

Tim Sexton (Fire Use Program Manager, US Forest Service, NIFC) had a clarification message going round-robin on the FS email system. It had to do with the prescribed fire qualifications requirements for contractors. Evidently he'd had a lot of questions.

Following his enquiry,

Sharon Allen-Brick, the WO Risk Management Training Specialist, said

"There should be a clause indicating that the regional of national
contractor will adhere to the minimum position qualification standards
contained within the 310-1. The wildland fire contracts do contain
that statement."

FYI

I have looked a couple of times on the photos page, but I wasn’t sure if there were
any hiding. Thanks!

Take care,

Shivaun

I don't think we do. Readers, does anyone have photos from that fire in '89? Ab.

We're pleased to announce a new advertiser on the Classifieds page: FEDS, the Federal Employee Defense Services Association. The FWFSA endorses FEDS. Tony (Anthony Vergnetti) and crew have great professional expertise in defending and passion for helping federal wildland firefighters faced with the unthinkable when their agency doesn't support them... and also when it does. We all know the stories almost by heart, unfortunately. This is the same group of lawyers (almost) that were active in Cramer and in 30-mile defenses. Firefighters need such advocates.

Read their Intro Information Packet and then go to their website, to check out member benefits and their endorsements. Ab.

But the thing that irritates me the most with your
little rant, is giving Casey h*ll for asking people to
stand up for what is right. Remember he isn't only
looking out for the interest of people in R5 but
people across all the regions who would benefit from
better wages and working conditions. Not all of us in
the Forest Service is interested in working for
CALFIRE even though you do pay better, but pay isn't
everything. Now if people decide to swap, then more
power to them; it's a tough decision for all and
believe me CALFIRE is definitely going to get some
great firefighters and future leaders. But please
don't rip on people because they are willing to try
and make a difference. Yes, it is hard working for an
agency that doesn't have good leaders in the RO and
above but if we don't fight then what does that say
about us? Its bad right now but I have confidence
that we will win this fight.

Later, DM

OK, folks, please let's try to keep this about "the what not the who". No pig-piling in the kibble corner. Please be aware that Kibble Free may not even be CalFire or former CalFire. Ab.

Good question. Readers? Ab.

The Cascade Complex Accident Prevention Analysis report has been posted to
the FAM website: www.fs.fed.us/fire/ (8 mb, huge pdf file 120 pages)

It should also be posted at the Lessons Learned Center soon.

I am glad that we'll all be able to learn from this. Thanks to Paul Broyles and his
Incident Management Team for sharing the information. It takes courage to share
information that benefits the entire community. Everyone, this is an Accident Prevention
Analysis (APA), one of the new tools in the toolbox for our high reliability fire learning
organization.

Mellie

If the FAM site is impacted, let us know and we could also post it here. Ab.

OMB directs agencies to close off most Internet links
www.fcw.com/online/news/150964-1.html

By Jason Miller
Published on December 3, 2007

The Office of Management and Budget's Trusted Internet Connections (TIC) initiative likely is to be the last publicized program in the Bush administration's stepped-up focus on cybersecurity, some experts say. More importantly, the new initiative requires agencies to implement real-time gateway monitoring, which has been a deficit in federal network protection.

The TIC initiative mandates that officials develop plans for limiting the number of Internet connections into their departments and agencies. OMB officials want to reduce the number of gateways from the more than 1,000 to about 50, said Karen Evans, OMB's administrator for e-government and information technology.

The initiative also asks chief information officers to develop a plan of action and milestones for participating in the Homeland Security Department's U.S. Computer Emergency Readiness Team's Einstein initiative. The program offers agencies real-time gateway monitoring capabilities and helps them react more quickly to security incidents. About 13 agencies voluntarily participate in the Einstein program.

"The reduction of access points to trusted Internet connections will improve our situational awareness and allow us to address potential threats in an expedited and efficient manner," Evans said. "While we optimize and improve our security, it is also our goal to minimize overall operating costs for services through economies of scale."

ETC... click the link above...

Ab et al,

Some thoughts, I’ve been a lurker for too long..

I have to say I agree with Yaktac that the USFS is inept at managing emergencies, particularly in the Urban interface scenario of SoCal and should give up these duties to an organization much more suited for that kind of work.

As someone who has spent the better part of almost 30 years in wildland fire, both public and private sectors, I was embarrassed to work for an agency that is so unbelievably poorly managed. Direction? Whichever way the politicians (leaders?) blow, so goes the Agency. No mission statement with longevity greater than what seems to be a millisecond…. Remember when the FS was THE premier land management agency? and they are a land management agency NOT an emergency response agency.

I actually saw some good in the 401 series (for new hires) as a way of making people get an education which would allow them to get other jobs (both in and outside of the agency), thus having an out (should they want one) from the historically lower paying, overtime addicted federal fire jobs,….. options and doors opening, the keys to growth. Once again we are a Land management organization, what’s wrong with having a Land management educational background?

Casey, I was surprised at your comment on asking people to stay with the FS ship, knowing that someday you’d be running the show, and could make it better then…. Nice idea in theory, if you have the years to wait…. Tell that to the guy who sticks around for 10 (or more) years waiting for it to get better, having to work 1500 hrs ot to feed his family, working all the time to attain that 1500 hrs, to receive a retirement that is ½ or less than CALFIRE or other county/city pensions, as he gnaws on kibble in retirement. Who could possibly blame someone for trying to better their lives financially and their family’s existence? I apologize if I misinterpreted your comments….

And no I am not bitter, I had a great time, especially back in the beginning, when we were the Premier land management agency, with the travel, great people (fire people are GOOD people, that will never change), but with age comes wisdom hopefully. Jump ship and smile at the memories, while creating new ones. There will be good times at the other agencies and a lot less sacrifices…

A kibble-free retiree

Everyone's journey is different. If you do plan on jumping ship to CAL Fire please carefully
count the cost because you just may find it is not quite the utopia you thought it was.

sign me "green blooded blue shirt"

Stoobig

AVD

I was on the Ojai hotshots in '74,75. I believe it was started in '74. That year we had Bob Bernett as sup and John Salaz and Terry Raley as squad bosses. We were based in downtown Ojai and had a couple of vans for crew buggies. We thought we were full fledged Hotshots, but in hindsight i think this was a recruitment tool for local minorities ... it was ahead of its time in that regard. These two seasons we were very busy and went to about 20 fires each year.

One of my favorite stories is the fire outside of San Bernardino in which our reporting location for that shift was a "Sunnyside Campground" .. to make a very long story short .. it was a nudist camp .. and after spending all day on the hot, steep hillside watching our bus driver lounging poolside .. the crew was invited back that evening to swim in the Olympic sized spring-fed pool. You never saw a group of guys shower and get back on the bus so fast in your life ..it was a very memorable night of swimming and volleyball.

also could you add my name to the following organizations..

Ojai hotshots '74,75
Lolo Hotshots '77
McCall jumpers '78
Missoula jumpers '79-92

Currently Dispatch Center Manager for BLM in Susanville ,CA and BLM Aviation Manager for Northern California

Jim Hedges

Thanks Jim, great story, I added the info to the list. Readers, don't be shy. Tell your own stories and let us know where you started and where you're manager. If you don't want me to post to theysaid, just say so. I'll simply add your info to the list. Ab.

WKS

All,

This is all a matter of personal choice. I am a supt who digs his job and
the people and the sunsets and all that, however if I choose to leave it is
on me. The FS will replace me and my crew will go on without me and life
will continue, but I'm with lobotomy, I don't think it makes much sense to
go down with the ship. When you find yourself drowned at the bottom of the
ocean you are dead one way or the other. I certainly hope that some real
positive steps can be gained from "the meeting" on 12/10.

signed...oh I forgot to rant about 401

Sounds like a good plan. I'm on leave then.

Strider

Job Survey of Federal Firefighters

SLR

Mellie

Heck, yac, he didn't ask them to quit writing in to the survey. He's going to use information from it, no doubt, in educating Congress. Seems to me he had a button pushed by Pappy's post. We all get our buttons pushed, feel frustrated and maybe even have a moment of hopelessness. If I get some time today I'll post a few survey comments from people who bleed green but who feel their "backs are against the wall"... Ab.

Howdy again, Abs --

Just wanted to say THANX - to you for your quick posting of my request for
Premo info, and to the anonymous responder with the great reference -- just
what I needed, and another example of the power of TheySaid. Appreciate it.

STUMPIE

sting

Well the hard and dirty news is that the whole FS world does not revolve around southern region 5!!! I understand this may be hard for some here on this board to grasp, but there is alot more of these here United States than So Cal. Many very fine teams have members from all geographic areas. I just want to state that it seems like many here are are preaching to be open to new ideas and thoughts , but at the same time remain closed minded themselves.

signed cant we all get along??

Maybe we need to have a course covering where the Command and General Staff on Incident Management Teams come from, what their training is, and how many years it takes. I think we can all get along, we simply need to be informed before we cut off the federal pipeline of talent and KSAs that lead to the appointments that are critical for the nation. Ab.

Thanks for your contributions, Lobotomy. Ab.

PS: Casey and All, I'll be here, too.

Thanks for all you do Casey. We'll be here, too. Ab.

The Forest Service does not need to maintain protection responsibilities in So Cal. Why not give it to CALFIRE and/or the Counties? It would be way more efficient. As mentioned, leave the IHCs in place. The Helicopters would seem to be a resource that could go either way. If there is a large fire that needs managed, order a team and if it is federal land, the feds pay and give the direction for management of the fire. This type of arrangement would require some management staff, but beyond that it would be limited. The options for those losing their jobs, compete for the remaining management positions, go to the other agencies, or find another job. It is going to come to this sometime, why not do it now? It would be a bit of "black eye" for the FS, but what's new.

On another topic:

That structure protection letter is weak. Using the word may in it gives the discretion to the Line Officer. Here is a real example of how that plays out. Local line officer makes issue of buying structure wrap. Ordering Manager gets wind of the issue and refuses to fill the order for wrap when Operations personnel submit the order. Operations Chief, gets wind of the situation and tells Ordering Manager it is not at his discretion to determine what gets ordered. His job is to place the order. Ops Chief then tells IC that as soon as there is direction that is in official format and signed by the Line Officer, then no more structures will be wrapped; until then, business as usual will occur. That being: structures will be wrapped at the discretion of operations personnel. That is where it plays out.

So when structures are lost there will be a letter on file that states that the local official made the request to save a few thousand dollars, thus contributing to your home being destroyed. Guess how many Line Officers are going to do that? Exactly zero. Stupid thing to make a big deal about and gives mixed direction, poor leader's intent. Lets see, leader's intent is to be as wishy-washy as possible and then any decision is, at a minimum, subject to review and subsequent criticism.

SLR

Re your first topic: Where do the federal incident management teams of the future come from? Ab.

firebrand
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: November 29, 2007
Subject: Wildland Urban Interface Operating Principles
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors, Forest Fire Chiefs

Subsequent to the Esperanza tragedy there was a great deal of discussion in the interagency fire community regarding safe and effective operations in the wildland urban interface. The Esperanza Accident Review Board Action Plan furthered this discussion by recommending (#04) that WO FAM “Initiate a policy review of wildfire suppression risk management principles to enhance agency-wide performance and determine key factors to make educated risk decisions when operational assets are committed, or proposed to be committed in the wildland urban interface.” Region 5 asked to take the lead and, working with members of the WO FAM Risk Management Group and the California Wildland Fire Working Group (CWCG), developed the “Wildland Urban Interface Operating Principles”, attached to this letter.

While these principles capture in one place what can be found in many, they provide renewed emphasis on the fundamental imperative that the safety of firefighters is the number one tactical consideration when operating in this environment. They amplify the importance of judgment in the making of decisions that involve risk, and call upon every firefighter to engage only to the level their experience and training allow. These principles also contain a subtle shift in emphasis, which I want to amplify.

Before engaging in a structure protection assignment the leader and members of the crew must establish situational awareness that proves to them that the location and fire behavior do not pose an immitigable risk to their safety. There is adequate defensible space, good escape routes and safety zones are present, and time-distance factors are favorable. Secondly, the structure or group of structures also prove to the on-scene firefighters that, based on their condition and location, they would be able to survive the oncoming fire even if firefighters were not directly on-scene. That is the nuance; rather than seek ways to protect every structure, each structure and location must first prove that protection can be provided safely and with the assurance of success.

The CWCG has forwarded these principles to the FIRESCOPE Board of Directors and asked that they consider including them in the “Field Operations Guide”, ICS 420-1, and any others of their publications that may be appropriate. Further, CWCG members forwarded these principles to their representatives on the National Wildfire Coordinating Group for inclusion in inter-agency publications and training relating to WUI fire suppression operations.

CWCG adopted these principles and I concur. I want you to ensure they are trained and applied by all firefighters, fireline supervisors, fire program leaders, incident management teams, and any others preparing for or engaging in fire suppression on your units. They should be the topics of tactical decision games and sand table exercises, discussed at IMT in-briefings, and should serve to guide you as you evaluate the quality of the risk decisions made by your firefighters, their leaders, and incident management personnel.

I am very pleased that we have not suffered a single serious accident during the difficult season we just experienced. I know it is due in no small measure to your leadership and the emphasis you place on safe operating practices, and I thank you for that. Please continue these efforts, stay engaged, and leave nothing to chance.

/s/ James M. Peña (for)
RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester

<Ab deleted the cc'ed names>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attached is the briefing paper that will guide our process. <snip name #3> will join us as the HR / pay specialist, and Jim Pena will identify the Line Officers that will participate. As agreed, the following data will be developed and brought to the meeting:

*1. Three-year attrition data for continuing and permanent employees - <snip name #1>
*2. Special pay, Group Retention Pay, and other Retention Pay data - <snip name #2> and <snip name #3>
*3. Current pay tables for locality pay - <snip name #2> and <snip name #3>
*4. Cost of Living tables for locality pay comparisons - <snip name #2> and <snip name #3>
*5. Demographics (workforce - general) - <snip name #1>
*6. Cost data for: Assignment of fire protection responsibilities on ANF, LPF, BDF, and CNF to State and County fire organizations. Assessment of potential to annex WUI area to City, County, and State Protection - <snip name #1>

We will meet at the WFTC in McClellan beginning at 1300 hrs on Monday, December 10, and work toward concluding our efforts on Friday, December 14, at 1200 hrs. Please make your arrangements accordingly. Through copy of this e-mail to Christine Haupt, I am requesting a room, with digital projector, white erase boards, and easel pad (2) for this group, approximately 8 people.

We will begin the week by reviewing in-hand data, identify shortcomings, and develop tactics to obtain. We will then spend as much time as necessary to determine how the data will be used to generate our proposal; this process will also lead us to identifying next steps and refining the end-state.

Please review the intent for the effort included in the attached briefing paper. If you have any questions, please give me a call.
-ed-

The transition from green to red was very smooth and I, too, had much to
offer the red side especially in the saw training end of things. D'ont fear too
much and roll with the punches and get set up for retirement. I got started
in the the early eighties and am now enjoying my free time.

Tunes

Does anyone think the FS, BLM, NPS etc are going to let go of the $-cash-$ cow? Ab.

The official burned area total for the 2003 firestorm has been cited as
750,043 acres (in the “California Fire Siege 2003 – The Story”
publication). However, if you add up the acreage listed for each of
the 13 fires in the same publication the total comes up to 739,597.

What’s up?

It would be helpful to get the right number. I’m helping this guy update
his own publication that is going to press next week.

jimhart

Here's the link to the guide with Power Points etc. Hope it's helpful.

www.blm.gov/nifc/st/en/prog/fire/Aviation/Airops/iaig.print.html

This letter has been floating around for a couple of months. It's amazing that the
WO would even put out something like this! My curiosity has gotten the best
of me so I'm sending it out to some who may know what this really means and
if it is creating any problems in California. What's up?

structure-protection07.doc (55K doc file)

First of all USFS firefighters are authorized to take action to suppress
wild fires on private land, (structure or wild land), that threaten federal
lands. Forest Service employees, however, are not authorized to go into
structures to suppress structure fires. Unless this has changed as of
late, the policy stands.

The use of material to wrap flame resistant material around a structure
seems time consuming and excessive. Why not just use foam?

Clearing around homes with an on coming fire is not unusual, but often there
is not enough time to do a complete job. Again, why not foam and move?

Doing a job hazard analysis before going on a roof makes sense as long as it
is done at the beginning of the season and not in the middle of the need.
Putting up a sprinkler system, say for a home or 2 that may have a chance
and could possibly reduce rate of spread or spotting has and does work.
Again, why not just use foam?

The sideboards of the Forest Service suppression policy has been pretty
consistent the last few years, Is this more an issue of poor training?
Apparently ordering engines for structure protection was stopped on an
incident in Idaho, due to the interpretation of this letter by agency line
types involved in this incident. Can you imagine the backlash if this were
to occur in R-5?

In case you may not know, over half the expensive fires the Forest Service
fights in California are along federal borders. There are over 5 million
homes in the "High risk" zones as presently defined by the State.

Structure protection is usually a separate branch or division on an
incident, depending on the fire size and complexity. The "cost
apportionment" process is used to sort out who pays for what while in
unified command. Is this another example of poor training?

Finally, I was of the understanding that the concept of "Commanders intent"
was fully supported by the Washington leadership. Putting out a letter of
"how to fight" a fire is a far cry from "Commanders Intent" or support of
the concept!

Well anyway read the stuff below (at the link above), pretty interesting...

thanks.. noname

Noname, this was sent in by TC on 8/17 when many were off fighting fire in Idaho. He found it raised questions for him, too. There was only one follow-up comment a few days later about micromanaging firefighting; no doubt firefighters were busy foaming and wrapping and spending $$ on structure protection, doing their jobs. Any comments now?

Guy McCarthy