"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
December, 2007

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12/31

BEST WISHES TO ALL FOR A HAPPY & PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR

FROM ALL OF US AT THE FWFSA

12/31 Last day to switch to FEDS with 6 months free Professional Liability Insurance. Ab.
12/31 In the matter of not getting paid yet, it comes down to the official pay date is Jan. 3 by NFC standards. Those of us that use direct deposit are lucky and get paid on Mondays. Since it is a new year for tax purposes, and the day New Years falls on Tuesday, you will not see your paycheck until the second. Your supervisor should have told you this, as it was a common email that was sent out to all employees. Hope this help you out.

Green for Life

P.S. It sucks having to wait til Wednesday to get paid when you have bills to pay and you count on those funds every other Monday.

12/31 Hi all !

Glad to see that someone is looking into trying to how to retain some of these
individuals ! .I only wish that they had better pay and I had a 26/0 rather than
an 18/8. That is one of the reasons I left and went to the DOD! It was great
when I was single but when I started a family that all changed! Maybe I'll get
lucky and it will all change and I can get out of this mad house and start fighting
fires again!

DOD mistake

12/31 I did not get paid, and that is very strange since I've never had a problem getting
paid. I did get the email saying my paycheck was submitted to NFC last week.
I also see the statement on my personal page, however no transfer of funds into
my accounts.

Some thing is up, maybe Uncle's way of saying Happy New Year.

Maybe this should be reported in the letter back to Feinstein's committee.

1) First we are going to make sure we pay our employees.
2) Secondly we are increasing pay by 3% this year and health benefits by 14%.

What a deal !!!!!!
12/31 FyrGuy -

We were told that because of the holidays last week, we won't be
getting paid until Wed. Hopes this sheds some light on the situation.

Lori
12/31 Who pays the fire suppression costs when Plum Creek decides to subdivide their ownership?

An interesting view of what's coming in the 21st century to a private forest near you at www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2007/12/31/news/state/36-plumcreek.txt

Plum Creek's focus raises new concerns
By Michael Jamison
Missoulian

Kalispell - Not far up the road from Steve Brown's house, out west of Whitefish and just around the corner from forest burnt black by the Brush Creek fire, a quarter-mile of new road is headed off into the woods.

The short stretch will cross U.S. Forest Service land, using that public patch to connect Plum Creek Timber Co. with the rest of the world. Plum Creek has another route in, a winding six-mile twist of road used seasonally to haul logs, but the new neighbors weren't going to put up with that.

Because Plum Creek's not going to log that land anymore. Instead, the company plans on selling it as subdivided real estate parcels.

And so the Forest Service has granted a new easement to hasten access, that quick quarter-mile over public land.

"I'm baffled," Brown said. He's lived here for years, and knows the fire danger. "If the Forest Service is really all worried about wildfires, why would they grant easements that encourage more houses in the woods? I'm just wondering why, if they're as broke as they say they are, and they're spending all their money protecting houses from fire, then why would they go and do something like this?"

Because, said Lisa Timchak, the government just can't say no.

"Fire costs are huge," said Timchak, the district ranger who had to review Plum Creek's easement request. "We're becoming a skeleton of an agency. But right now, when they ask for something like this, the Forest Service doesn't have the tools to deny it. Fire costs are not part of the review criteria." (Ab note: important stuff; read on at the link)

Hundekot

Fair Use Disclaimer

12/31 Has anyone in the Forest Service been paid for this past pay period?
It's getting a little tight when you depend on your check to make a
mortgage payment and its not there. There have been several people
that have not been paid in 2 pay periods, I just hope I am not about
to be one of them.

FyrGuy
12/31 Dear Abs They Said;

Extremely interesting video.

60 Minutes video: The Age of Mega-Fires.

Socal Dispatcher

The Age Of Mega-Fires
www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3657686n
CBS News Online

It was good and very interesting, from the reduction in firefighting troops to environmental predictions from tree ring data going back thousands of years, to drought, to soil burned of all tilth back to rocky substrate. Predicted loss of 1/2 our forested lands in North America over the next 30 to 100 years... A wake up call for sure. Tom Boatner did a good job for the groundpounders. The AZ fire scientist did a great job of laying out the problems and predictions. I'd like to see it again. Ab.

12/31 It's burning Downunda. From Firescribe:

Three men killed in convoy inferno
December 31, 2007 - 6:20PM
www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/12/31/1198949707028.html

Three men killed when a bushfire caught their trucks in the West Australian
Goldfields are believed to be from WA, police say.

The bodies of three people, initially believed to be two adults and a child,
were found in two burnt-out trucks on the Great Eastern Highway in a section
of Boorabbin National Park between Southern Cross and Coolgardie about
midnight.

Deputy Police Commissioner Chris Dawson said investigators had confirmed the
three were all adult men.

"I can confirm three adult males, believed to be from Western Australia,
have tragically lost their lives,'' Mr Dawson said. (more at the link)

12/30 SoCal Dispatcher,

Thanks for the info. Its good to know it least some are thinking about AZ as an option. Maybe as cross-state boundary mutual aid comes more into play, a quicker dispatch of resources would work. As a state cooperator agency, the agencies I interact are always very eager to go to CA. It seems that is often San Diego. It will be interesting to see if the dispatch process ever improves and becomes a bit quicker the next time.

AZfirefighter
12/30 Hi Ab,

Happy New Year to all.

Peets Coffee in Corona Del Mar Plaza in Newport Beach CA (my daughter' store) raised
$780.00 which will be matched by Peets for a total of $1560 for the Santa's Helper Fund.
Her staff donated all their tips that day to the donation jar. I don't have the totals from the
other two stores yet who raised money for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation General Fund.

Annette

Nice Job. Ab.

12/30 Come help us bid a fond farewell to
Battalion 10 (Bill Bourbeau), Battalion 21 (Jim Snow) and Battalion 22 (Marta Woodward) as they retire from many years of public service.

Thursday January 10, 2007 @ 1800-2100
BJ’s Restaurant
26500 Ynez Rd. cross of Overland, Temecula, California

Dinner $20 all you can eat Specialty Pizza, pasta, salad and soft drinks.
12 and under $10
Gift donations gratefully accepted Please RSVP by January 8th Contact:
Carlton Joseph @ (619) 988-7717 or Gordon Martin @ (951) 415-8323

I am not sure if you post these types of announcements, but these retirements are a loss to the Southern California fire community. Good Luck to all.

FC180
12/30 Ab -

Since it's about to be a new year how about starting with a little humor. I assume you, being the moderator of this form, might enjoy the following:

How many forum members does it take to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
1 to post in ALL CAPS
2 to explain that this is considered shouting and impolite
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ...
Another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid.
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct.
50 people to argue over the environmental benefit of fluorescent bulbs versus incandescent bulbs
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a light bulb forum.
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.
5 People to post pics of their own light bulbs.
15 People to post "I can't see S$%^!" and their own light bulbs.
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs.
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's.
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
13 to say "do a search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
1 moderator to lock the light bulb thread.
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

Have a Happy New Year!
AK Old Timer

Haw haw, good one! Ab.

12/30 Re: Portal to Portal Pay vs. 24 Hour Coverage vs. Doing What Is Right for the Mission and Taxpayer

Proposed as a simple legislation change for those Forests who need 24-hour coverage, or who have employees who work 40 (plus) hour work weeks and who have employees on call (ie- night call dispatchers, fire prevention, or chief officers who are not compensated during "on call" periods of mandatory availability. This simple change allows complete flexibility based upon each units mission needs.

Proper classification with either a wildland firefighter series, or a distinct branch under the 0081 series is needed so folks don't have to wade through the USC and CFR to understand that federal wildland firefighters are firefighters..... not Forestry or Range Technicians (0462/0455).... not General Biological Sciences (0401).... not Foresters (0460)....

People who have been employed as federal wildland firefighters.... both in primary or secondary positions..... and others who are in allied professions (ologists) need to be viewed as equal peers and the experts in wildland fire program delivery....

The wildland fire program employs professionals who need to be leading and making decisions in the fire program mission delivery and not relegated to either "technician" or a non-defined series (0401) in the biological sciences.

Wildland firefighters know that it isn't rocket science, and that In-N-Out Burger offers competitive pay, benefits, and working conditions in their profession....... The problem exists when federal land managers don't understand they are managing a fire program that assists in land management....... and are competing for the best of the best with other agencies, other professions, and other federal agencies in completing their assigned missions.

Lobotomy

An amendment to (Proposed amendment highlighted) --

TITLE 5 > PART III > Subpart D > CHAPTER 55 > SUBCHAPTER V

§ 5545b. Pay for firefighters

(a) This section applies to an employee whose position is classified in the firefighter occupation in conformance with the GS-081 standard published by the Office of Personnel Management, or an employee whose position is designated as either a primary or secondary firefighter under 5 CFR 842.802, and whose normal work schedule, as in effect throughout the year, consists of regular tours of duty which average at least 106 hours per biweekly pay period.

> From the Forest Service: http://www.fs.fed.us/people/benefits/fers.html

FERS Firefighter - 5 CFR 842.802
Firefighter means an employee occupying a rigorous position, whose primary duties are to perform work directly connected with the control and extinguishment of fires, as provided in 5 U.S.C. 8401(14). Also included in this definition is an employee occupying a rigorous firefighter position who moves to a supervisory or administrative position and meets the conditions of Sec. 842.803(b).

FERS Secondary position - 5 CFR 842.802
(1) Is clearly in the law enforcement or firefighting field;
(2) Is in an organization having a law enforcement or firefighting mission; and
(3) Is either--
(i) Supervisory; i.e., a position whose primary duties are as a first-level supervisor of law enforcement officers or firefighters in rigorous positions; or
(ii) Administrative; i.e., an executive, managerial, technical, semiprofessional, or professional position for which experience in a rigorous law enforcement or firefighting position, or equivalent experience outside the Federal government, is a prerequisite.

Firefighter Defined - 5 USC 8401(14) http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode05/usc_sec_05_00008401----000-.html
(14) the term "firefighter" means-
(A) an employee, the duties of whose position-
(i) are primarily to perform work directly connected with the control and extinguishment of fires; and
(ii) are sufficiently rigorous that employment opportunities should be limited to young and physically vigorous individuals, as determined by the Director considering the recommendations of the employing agency; and
(B) an employee who is transferred directly to a supervisory or administrative position after performing duties described in subparagraph (A) for at least 3 years;

Note: "throughout the year" applies to either calendar year (CY), fiscal year (FY), or appointment type. The 106 hour average bi-weekly limitation may not apply to all areas, in which case, the provisions of the FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS OVERTIME PAY REFORM ACT OF 1998 may not apply to your area. In such cases, other provisions of law relating to federal firefighters would apply.

Reference:

Congressional Hearing: Tension in the Tinderbox: Finding Fairness in Federal Firefighter Compensation
Congressional Hearing: Wildland Firefighters Pay: Are There Inequities?
HR 408 Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005
HR 2963 Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2003
HR 5697 Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act of 2005
HR 2814 Federal Firefighters Pay Equity Act
HR 1116/ S 492 Firefighters Pay Fairness Act of 1997
Public Law 106-558 (S 439) "... to authorize equal overtime pay provisions for all Federal employees engaged in wildland fire suppression operations."
Wildlandfire.com Archive: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/firepay.htm

12/29 AZ Firefighter,

I just wanted you to know that we in the Southern California dispatch community are well aware that all those resources are available just across the border. We have frequently called Arizona Dispatch Centers directly to make "back door" deals to get those resources on the road. Quite often, the resources are already en route or on scene before we can get the order placed through the system. It is frustrating to know that the ordering system doesn't always guarantee the "closest forces" and not everyone thinks outside the box. Thanks for making the trek out here to give us a hand, it was appreciated more then you'll probably know.

Socal Dispatcher
12/29 Re Bob Serrato's retirement:

I have known Bob for 30 years, in that time Bob has been an outstanding firefighter,
manager, mentor, friend and ski partner. I sincerely offer Bob and his beautiful wife
and daughter the very best in his upcoming retirement. He has been a strong asset
to the ANF fire management program as well as R-5 as a whole. I am sure he will
be successful in what ever path he selects in the future. Congratulations on an
outstanding career. Ski ya on the slopes Bob.

Tim V

12/28 Tanker thoughts:

Thanks to all who answered my question. I knew someone
smarter than me had to have already thought of that airframe.

Onelick

12/28 Everyone,

I'm still tuned in to the network of scientists tracking avian flu infections and deaths around the world. Several weeks ago there was likely limited human-to-human infection with deaths in Pakistan. Results should be in on that outbreak soon. This is similar to the clusters of human-to-human infection in Indonesia, where the disease is also endemic in birds, cats and other mammals.

I sent in the CIDRAP (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy) summary and it's posted on the Birdflu Watchout Page.

For those who want to follow the latest breaking news on birdflu and other infectious diseases around the world, please visit flutrackers.com.

I'll let you know if things seem to be getting dicey with birdflu.

Mellie

12/28 For those who haven't heard... President Bush signed the Omnibus Appropriations Bill -- H.R. 2764 -- into law late on 12/26. Ab.

Dear Letterman and all:

First & Foremost, the Omnibus bill "highlights" text did in fact come from Senator Feinstein. A quote from her follows at the end of this post.

Her efforts to place this language in the bill is the result of a variety of folks from fire officials off the BDF to the FWFSA to many others who took the time to educate her staff about the issues. That being said, I remind everyone that the FWFSA is committed to securing fundamental changes in pay & personnel policies for all federal wildland firefighters from all five land management agencies regardless of grade or geographic location.

The text is another in a series of steps forward that have occurred over the last year and a half or so.

The FS, after 3 years of silence finally took a position on the firefighter liability issue, supporting the expansion of reimbursement of PLI premiums. This occurred after the efforts of NFFE and the FWFSA secured the help of Sen. Domenici (R-NM) to get the issue out on the table in Senate hearings last February. As a result, language to expand the reimbursement of PLI premiums has now been signed into law. Next step... the Agency(s) covering 100% of the premium.

Again, through the collective efforts of NFFE and the FWFSA, congress inserted language into the Omnibus bill, now signed into law, "defunding" the FS outsourcing studies.

At the end of last session the House of Representatives passed the Federal Wildland Firefighter Classification Act. While OPM just hasn't gotten it through its head that classification is a major issue, we will continue to get that done with the help of Congress.

Retention meetings have been held in R5 after Congress sought answers to the "exodus" of federal firefighters in R5 to other fire agencies. We obviously don't know the details of those recent meetings but they were held because the Agency now recognizes they can no longer rely on the bureaucratic "smoke & mirrors" to suggest that all is fine. Too many folks are talking now.

Finally, this language in the Omnibus bill: It, as with all the other items mentioned, are steps in the right direction. That means we keep pressing until either 1) the Agency steps forward and recognizes its firefighters as the asset they are and begins to eliminate the archaic pay & personnel policies that have encumbered the firefighters for so long and works to strengthen the infrastructure, or 2) Congress does it for them.

One of the next steps is for the Agency to decide whether they want to have a fire program or not. If they do, it needs to recognize that the current organizational structure of the fire program i.e. non-fire folks making policy, is not conducive to managing a true fire department and changes must be made. The Agency also needs to recognize that its very own policies under this organizational structure is what has caused the skyrocketing costs of suppression.

So, as far as gut feelings are concerned, I don't have any. I am humbled that Congress is starting to hear the voices of these brave men & women and that means we keep our sleeves rolled up and keep up the effort until all of you get what you deserve.

Casey

Quote from Senator Feinstein:

“I worked to secure language in the Omnibus Appropriations Bill because the U.S. Forest Service is losing firefighters to other agencies in California. This is a serious problem that must be addressed, and we are working closely with the Forest Service on a long-term solution. California faces a real and growing threat from wildfires, and we must have a strong firefighting capability at all levels of government.”

"highlights" text
text on Curtailing A76 and text describing Professional Liability Insurance reimbursement (posted to theysaid 12/18)
Retention text (posted to theysaid 12/26) [scroll down to Green for Life's post on 12/27 for links to the bill itself]

12/28 Ab,

I promised a follow-up on the new statutory language stopping Forest Service competitive sourcing in FY 2008. I just posted a press release and briefing paper that go into the how and why the language got changed over on my corner of the NFFE Forest Service Council website. Short story: to make sure interagency fire studies (training, dispatch are ongoing) were stopped. More at www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/CSIndex/CSIndex.html.

Casey really hit the nail on the head in describing how Congress works and how difficult it is to get anything done. We've been working competitive sourcing since 2003 -- working it hard. Sometimes it gets pretty frustrating. Most times, in fact. This legislative work is worse than baseball, where even the best batters fail 7 out of 10 times. I'll bet we swing and miss 99 times out of 100. The trick is to keep swinging -- over 100 times. I expect that's what Casey and I will be doing in 2008.

In closing, one last pitch: we need all the help we can get.

Happy New Year to all.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Thank you Mark and
Thanks to Casey. Ab.

12/28 Retirement announcement coming in from a variety of sources. Here's one message:

Bob Serrato sent this out today (yesterday). I remember first meeting Bob in the early 80's. The great thing about Bob is he hasn't changed a bit since the day I met him.

Bob is a great, outstanding Firefighter and fire management leader, but the good thing about Bob is, he is an even better person.

Thanks for your service Bob, have a great retirement.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Out of Service
Robert J. Serrato
Angeles National Forest

Farewell, I will be retiring COB January 3, 2008. I have been with this organization almost 34 years and have enjoyed 95% all of that time. Many of you know what happen to the other 5%; I won’t go there in this letter. Ha! Ha!

I have given this organization my best over the years and I’m proud of my accomplishments. It is time for me to step aside. I have been successful in filling the position behind me. Eric McCormick was offered and has accepted the DFMO position and I am certain that he will lead it to greater heights. Although I am looking forward to retirement, it is with some regret that I am leaving. I will miss my colleagues and the opportunity to see employees develop. As I reflect on the people whom I have crossed paths with, many thoughts come to mind. First and foremost is the high level of professionalism that you all maintain. I have been humbled by having the pleasure and opportunity to have known and worked with so many that I hold with the highest respect. The Forest Service has provided me the opportunity to do things and visit places that most people only dream of.

In closing, I feel deeply indebted to you all for the support, guidance, and the encouragement you have provided me during my tenure.

Please keep in touch, I can be reached at (snip) or at the following numbers; (snip). I look forward to sharing a farewell refreshment with you all on January 19, 2008 at my retirement celebration.

Sincerely, 
Robert J. Serrato

When is the best time to start thinking about your retirement?
Before your boss does!

12/27 Casey,

What, if anything will this heightened congressional awareness we achieved in 07 help move portal to portal forward in 08? What is your gut feeling?

P to P helps not one geographic area, not just one agency, but the entire federal land management workforce. P to P would go a long way to solve the recruitment and retention issues. The passage of P to P in my opinion is the single most important thing that could be done to get things back on the right track.

Until then I ask ICs everywhere to use "ordered stand-by" (used by LPF and ANF during the fire siege) within your fire camps in 2008. You have many options within your authorities and can create variations to mold for your incidents and mirror P to P pay. Work on this at your team meetings in 08. R-5 has always been known for leading change, keep the tradition alive. R-5 and other fed agency ICs within Ca, if you lead on this issue now, then years, even decades from now you will always be remembered as "The Leaders" who changed how federal emergency responders are managed and paid. Most of you ICs have very little time left in your careers. Do something in 2008 for the younger generation looking to follow in your footsteps. ICs; "Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things". You have the unique opportunity to do both in 2008.

See you Reno!

Letterman

12/27 To all:

The PLI and outsourcing language included in the recent FY'08 Omnibus bill coupled with the highlight notes recently posted here about the FS needing to address recruitment & retention should be a clear signal to all federal wildland firefighters that Congress is listening to and hearing your voices.

The highlight language is interestingly similar to the language of the letter sent by 6 bipartisan members of Congress to FS Chief Kimbell and the ANF Forest Supervisor Jody Noiron last summer seeking answers to the problems in R5.

Likely the RO will suggest the recent retention meetings were convened because they expected such language/direction from Congress in the Omnibus bill. That may be true in part but that language/direction is a direct result of the voices of our federal wildland firefighters, the FWFSA, They Said etc.

It should also be noted that while the focus seems to be on the FS, our goal at the FWFSA is to ensure Congress understands that fundamental changes must occur to benefit not only FS wildland firefighters but wildland firefighters from all five land management agencies. The Omnibus bill language notwithstanding, the FWFSA's legislative initiative will include provisions that apply to all federal wildland firefighters from all land management agencies.

To re-emphasize the complexities of navigating Congress, I use the example of the IAFF's national collective bargaining bill that after 10+ years finally was passed by the House this year only to die in the Senate recently. As with many such bills, the IAFF's language was included as an amendment to the Farm Bill which was a "must pass bill." The thinking was that with such a bill and the end of the first half of the 110th Congress at hand, president Bush would not veto the bill.

This is a common practice... to tack language of one bill onto another larger bill as an amendment. The interesting thing is that the practice of changing the law on an appropriations bill (one of 13 must-pass bills each year) while done frequently, is actually a violation of congressional rules. That is, unless everyone agrees to set aside the rules.

Apparently the IAFF believed they had done just that with the leadership from both sides of the aisle with respect to their language being on the Farm bill. However at least two Senators derailed the process using perfectly legal parliamentary tactics to kill the IAFF's language.

The point is, getting things passed and signed into law is not easy. One person in Congress can derail even the most popular bill. Thus, the language and reference to federal wildland firefighter issues in this bill are a major step to fixing many of the problems, but a great deal of work remains to be done. YOUR voices are what will make that happen.

Best to all for a wonderful, prosperous & successful New Year.

Casey
12/27 GISgirl and others:

You mentioned how long it can take to get resources into San Diego County when there are several fires to the north and you are geographically "a cul-de-sac". I would have to agree. However, being a fire professional in AZ, I wonder if there isn't more that can be done to get those resources "from the east" as you state.

Arizona has what I feel is a solid, close knit wildfire community. From Federal fire fighters to state cooperative fire departments, we may not have the numbers like California, but we can be and have been of help to many incidents in CA.

Over the years, many engines as well as crews or other resources have gone to CA. In 2003 we sent a very large (for AZ) contingent of resources. And now again in 2007, we were able to provide several strike teams of engines (all NWCG types) as well as other assets. Having been a part of those responses, and having waited for the orders, we get frustrated in knowing we are alot closer to San Diego than the Northern CA resources. We were ready to roll, but just needed orders.

Our time to the SD county fires was about 8 hours. With a little more "practice", we could easily get that number down a bit more. At our October 2007 response, we relieved some OES engines who had been on the line for an extended period, after having driven from the CA/OR border. They stated their drive time was 15+ hours.

Now of course I'm prejudiced, but it seems maybe Arizona resources should be given a little bit more of a look. The next time a firestorm gets going, and fires are threatening lives from LA county down to SD county, our resources can get rolling and be there quicker. Isn't that usually the way we all dispatch? Closest resource concept?

The only other problem is the slow ordering process. With some pre-planning, Arizona could be a reliable and expedient pool of resources at the next SD county firestorm when engines and other resources are spread thin.

Just a thought. Maybe someone who makes those important decisions to get out of state resources will read this and think about it as a viable option. I believe Yuma (AZ) FD is a part of the CA system. Why not other AZ resources.

AZfirefighter
12/27 Thanks, Green for Life.

As I read the Division F - Interior pdf of the Appropriations Bill, Congress has restored
$6 million in funding for the Rural Fire Assistance program and $14 million for Volunteer
Fire Assistance.

Thanks to everyone who asked their Senators and Representatives to bring RFA back
despite the lack of agency support.

vfd cap'n
12/27 Ab,

I found the information for you on how someone can look up what it says in the bill.

Just type in http://appropriations.house.gov/ into the web browser.
Click the Bill Text and Explanatory Statements.
Then under   look for
Division F--Interior (141 page pdf file)
and on page 55 it has what people might want to read. There are some really important
other amendments also on the bill that some people might have interest in.

Hope this helps everyone out that wants to read the bill, especially those of you in R-5.

Green for life

Thanks, Green. Ab.

12/27 From Firescribe, more on NDT or Non-Destructive Testing of aicraft:

www.ndt.net/article/ecndt98/aero/031/031.htm

12/27 I just found this in the spam filter. It was dated 12/18:

Aging aircraft issues:

Regarding the Navy grounding or potentially grounding of their P3 fleet..........

ALL of these aircraft are now coming due, due to aging aircraft issues even before Mr Tony Kern (former USFS F&AVN) type knew about these and the issues of the of the aging fleet.

To be sure, Aero Union will do its best in the NDT arena, eddy current detection, and other aging aircraft issues.

Look on their website and see what their capabilities are.  Probably will get a Navy contract for the inspections if the Navy decides to use them as a prime mover in this arena.

Now it is time for the USFS and other land mgmt agencies to come to the realization that this issue is far from over and that their up and coming fire season may be interrupted (to some degree) during 18 to 24 month inspection schedules......

Some of these aircraft are as old as the former Hawkins and Powers fleet of C130 series of aircraft......

And everyone in the fire biz saw what happened to that FAMOUS aviation company after the land management agencies pulled their "Blue Ribbon Panel".  Are they going to do it again??  Are they going to claim knowledge in all things aviation??

USFS Fire and Aviation had better be clear on this........ The Navy let the AVIATION COMMUNITY know because of their AVIATION background, not the land mgmt agencies pouring over BRPs and town hall meetings regarding the aging air fleet.

Already everyone has seen the DC-10 and its possibilities, only it probably still can't fly over Federal lands like its older brother, the DC6.

Aero Union will do its best. The land management agencies do not have much left in the 3000 gallon inventory if they go after this one as they did the C130 and the PB4Y series.............

Let's let the AVIATION pro at Aero Union and the Navy sort this out..  BUT to the land management agencies... Are you ready to bring back some iron in the event of a catastrophic fire season '08??   Better get to the boneyard at Davis Monthan and see what can be resurrected.

Just to be fair to the fixed wing community......  some of the rotary wing aircraft are coming due also as far as aging aircraft issues also.

Again coming from a forester, former wildland firefighter, A&P, and Commercial pilot.......

To the land management agencies, be very careful with this, I will state the obvious, it COSTS something including people's livelihoods and it cost something to get these issues resolved.  GET all the facts B4 you pull another BRP.

LL

Ab note:
NDT=Non Destructive Testing detects cracks or any other irregularities in the airframe, structure, landing gear, and engine components which are not visible to the naked eye.
BRP=Blue Ribbon Panel, referring in this case to the BRP on the aging C130s and PB4Ys.

12/27 As a citizen of San Diego, as a former member of the federal militia, as a vendor to the San Diego Fire Department, and most importantly as a member of this wildland community (no matter how many months pass from the last fire I was on)....

San Diego county has a great number of wonderful people on the ground fighting fire- and a number of great ones in the various government agencies who are at the management level (Rich Hawkins I still miss you at 2am in the Sit Unit dispensing random fire knowledge as Plans Chief on Team 5). With that taken into consideration (having grown up in San Diego City), we are a small conservative town with a county covering an amazingly diverse area without a cohesive agency to cover our rear ends.

We in San Diego do not have the general knowledge amongst the citizenry (trust me I spend sooooooooo much time trying to bite my tongue or correct misled notions) regarding wildfire. They think water drops really do put fires out. They think the military is the answer (and yes, they can be a help- no arguments on that point). They do not recognize that geographically speaking we are a cul-de-sac... additional resources have to come from the North or East and speaking from a mere routing perspective it is a time consideration to get resources into San Diego- especially when our neighbors in the San Bernardino or LP are burning. Oh yeah has anyone thought of having 64 (or are we down to the 30s now) agencies to coordinate? I have heard the local stories about why we do not have a single agency responding in the county and EVERY time it is politics. I did have to put the article down for a bit from the UT b/c my brother-in-law was starting to blanch at the colorful language being uttered under my breath...

Without becoming one of the "contract counties" (I can't believe that term was never mentioned in the article- seriously people?), I don't think San Diego can ever contend with the LA County, Kern County, Ventura County, Santa Barbara County, Orange County, etc type of wildland fire support. I mean they didn't adequately mention the variety of agreements in place, the mutual aid vs OES vs GACC activations that have to occur for resources to be activated- who orders what- Unified Command vs Agency Representation and all that good stuff.

Okay- the bottom line is this- 2007 was leaps and bounds ahead of 2003. As someone who had to deal with half of our company being evacuated in the midst of a major company event- I lurked the sites, I check the boards and there is a long way to go to get to the point where information that needs to be distributed is done in a truly timely manner- but the response and public reaction was worlds better this time. We still have room to improve in this region. I heard from a FD source... we thought we would never see 2003 again... now we know it's not going away and we have to keep preparing.

GISgirl
12/27 ht,

I see your point. Yes, I go back to the original “Fire Stop” at Camp Pendleton in 1954. When I was in San Diego County all of those departments in the north were a dream to work with. Bob Harden at Carlsbad, Jim Fox at Rancho Santa Fe, Bill Elder at Vista and Charlie Carpenter at San Marcos plus Escondido, Fallbrook and the Rainbow volunteers, all were very helpful and good at what they did. If you analyze the San Diego County fire problems those departments were always know to me as “Problem solvers” not “Problem makers.”

On the Laguna fire in 1970 when it was making its run out of Harbison Canyon and heading into the Dehesa area, Chief’s Tom Barnes from La Mesa FD and Bill Thurber from Fallbrook saved about twenty five houses using good old Yankee ingenuity. I thought they were all going to burn; when I found Chief Barnes and told him about the problem he went back to the staging area at Gillespie Field, got the resources together and came out and those are my heroes even now.

The bigger problem with the whole situation down in San Diego County is turf and “Who is going to be in Charge.” That question is still hanging as I write this. The Chief Officer ranks of the SDFD don’t have the practical or demonstrated experience or ability to be thrust into that role, but the San Diego County fire service is loaded with some talented fire professionals who sure could help to weld that into a cohesive, functioning system.

Cal Fire is now too political to be the practical leader. They are changing Unit Chiefs too frequently for one personality to settle in and do a creditable job. What has worked well is their ability to pull smaller entities into their contract fold and make that work very well and make the utilization of resources effective. I only wish that when I worked in San Diego County that Cal Fire then had the talents they do now in the Battalion Chief ranks. Those folks are heads and above most I ever worked for.

The politicians never quit, do they? Now they want more fire engines. Who will organize and direct those additional resources? Who will fund the staffing and training? They have a hundred different ideas, none of which are practical or productive, to me, and the confusion still reigns supreme.

The solutions will be at the ballot box if the voters are truly as concerned as they are portrayed to be by the media. All the City and County government leaders are doing when they become critical of Cal Fire and the Forest Service is signal to me they are looking for scapegoats, hoping that no one comes trying to hold them accountable for their own lack of definitive action. It is they who are legally responsible and who continually refuse to take the helm and provide effective leadership, not the role of Cal Fire or the Forest Service.

Normbc9

12/26 Forest Service provided highlights from the FY 2008 Omnibus Bill included this one:
  • FS should examine Federal Firefighter pay and personnel policies and provide House
    & Senate Committees on Appropriations with a proposal to increase recruitment and
    retention for Southern California forests no later than Feb 1, 2008.

Letterman

Anyone know in what section or on what page this is located? Thanks. Ab.
Posted on 12/27: answer is here.

12/26 Onelick,

The A10 Warthog is built to deliver ordinance, i.e. bombs. This aircraft flies low and slow and pinpoints single point targets. Did I mention yet that most of the Warthogs are already old and worn out?

What we in wildland fire suppression need is a "purpose built" platform that will paint a lengthy line of retardant. Retardant releases from an aircraft in way different mode than bombs do...... As a now deceased airtanker pilot buddy of mine used to say: "the airtanker needs to be able to take off and land with different loadings and to be able to do some pretty weird stuff while in flight."

Right now Canada and Russia are way ahead of the US on the development of airtankers. We should be looking at what they are doing rather than looking into our military junkyards for the airtanker of the future. Moreover, I think Americans could produce a great purpose-built airtanker if the USFS would just get serious about it.

NMAirBear
12/26 Using the A-10 (Firehog) as a platform for aerial firefighting is an idea that's been floating around for about 10 years or so, scripted by Aerotech Ltd. The reasons this airframe was never followed through on are numerous. One of the big obstacles for this airframe is that the armor plating cannot be removed, thus adding un-needed weight. The original thought was to remove the armor thus giving the aircraft around a 2,000 gal capacity, however, even at 1,000 gallons this aircraft would be a problem to handle.

On a second note, there were some demo flight's at Camp Pendleton in California sometime around 1999-2000, and while the maneuverability was outstanding, many of the state and government officials walked away unimpressed. As a last note, the first hurdle to overcome should this get past where it is now, is for the government to release some for sale or lease. After 9/11, I just don't see that happening for quite some time.

Something else one needs to look at when dealing with jet engines vs. piston, is "spool up" time. In a piston engine, increased rpm's are attained more rapidly, such as post-drop throttle to regain altitude and airspeed. A jet engine takes longer to attain these critical rpm's. The basic A-10 uses a TF-34_GE-100 Turbofan powerplant. It takes roughly 6 seconds to spool to 110% vs. somewhere around 4-5 seconds for a piston engine (I used a Wright-Turbo Compound for this example). Not a big spread for the numbers, but it's a mile if your life depends on it.

Nothing wrong at all with your thoughts. That's the only way this industry is going to survive is by people dreaming up new thoughts and ideas. I hope I was able to answer your question without getting too technical.

TS

12/26 Onelick

The A-10 has been around for a long time and it's already been proposed
several times as an aerial firefighting platform.

Several proposals were put forth to both the Federal agencies as well as
many of the State agencies.

While the proposals in and of themselves were very well produced, edited
and presented, no agency thought the proposals were worth the expense
and time to develop.

Copter 100
12/26 Idea for new AirTanker:

Here's something that needs to be run by the airtanker folks. With all the
airframes that are being grounded lately, has anyone thought about using the
A-10 warthog airframe as an airtanker? I was talking to my brother-in-law
during the holidays, when this subject came up. He works on the avionics on
this plane, and he said the payload capacity is around 10k pounds. Which in
my limited mental capacity, put the gallonage around 1,000 gals. Since this
plane was designed to fly slow, and low to the ground, why wouldn't it make
a good airtanker? Or is the AirTractor a better platform? Since I'm just a
groundpounder, I'm not familiar with the different airframes. Just some
food for thought. It's amazing what ideas come to your head over some cool
adult beverages.

Onelick

12/26 Good Morning All.

Ab.

12/25


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-=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=-
ø¤º°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°ºø¤ ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`

From the Abs at wildlandfire.com

12/25 Ab and All!

Praying for a safe and wonderful holiday season for all...and may 2008
be a better year for us all!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Tom Stein

12/24 Merry Christmas!

"I'm Dreaming" (swf file)
Click "
Play" in the middle.

To further get in the snow mood... if you have DSL or highspeed internet

Let It Snow.pps (2627K pps file, large download file if you have dsl)

Ab.

12/24 Best Wishes from the Ghost of Fire Seasons Past
(by an anonymous theysaid contributor)

May the season be a long one with lots of good starts
To see if our crew are men of good heart

May your fires be many and a challenge to fight
May your backfires be successful and easy to light.

May your rations be fresh ones, with spaghetti and cheese
And your crew be strong and not hard to please.

May your firelines be wide and not too steep
And none in the canyons or up on the peak.

May your hoselays progress without broken line
And your pump keep running along just fine.

May your boots be comfy, a nice roomy fit
May your butt stay dry, not chapping a bit

May your saws keep running all through the shift
And the copters in time to change the shift

May the firecamp keep feeding those big juicy steaks
And lot of OT for Christmas you’ll make

May the relief crew always show up on time
For you and your bunch to get off the line

May the night shift be rested and ready to hold
All that line you’ve been pushing since daylight unfold.

May the generator be shut down at 0 early time
So you and your crew can sleep just fine

May your sack lunches be fresh ones, not from days past
With 3 big sandwiches, all day to last

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Best wishes to you Ab, to Original Ab and the hotlist mods at Wildlandfire.com.

Normbc9

Nice poem, unnamed firefighter. Thanks, Normbc9; happy holidays to all of you as well. Ab.

12/24 Merry Christmas and THANKS to Federal Dispatchers everywhere. Special thanks to those working today, tonight and tomorrow in our 24 hour Federal Dispatch Centers.

For the State, County and Local Dispatch Offices, we and our families appreciate you being there for us 24/7/365. Have a peaceful Christmas Eve and morning.... THANKS!

ms

So. Cal Forest 24/7/365 Dispatch Centers........

CNF
Open Incidents (Prepared 12/24/2007 09:56)
Date Inc # Name Type Location Comment
12/24/2007 03:40 CNF-3209
P5DZ83 0502
HILLS Vegetation Fire 3869 Pine Hills Road X Lazy Jays P5DZ83 0502
 
BDF
Open Incidents (Prepared 12/24/2007 09:53)
Date Inc # Name Type Location Comment
12/24/2007 07:10 CDD-14484 TC/MANNY/4R15 Traffic Collision TOWNE PASS .
 
ANF
Open Incidents (Prepared 12/24/2007 09:52)
Date Inc # Name Type Location Comment
12/24/2007 09:48 ANF-5148 Big Pines Miscellaneous Big Pines Station, .
12/24/2007 09:43 NPS-802 Barking Dog Miscellaneous Paramount Ranch @West end of the Park .
12/24/2007 00:12 ANF-5147 Daily Status Miscellaneous . .
 
12/24 Wind watches and perhaps warnings in socal. Luckily recent rains will probably keep the fire risk low. HOTLIST
Thanks to those maintaining situational awareness. Ab.
12/24 In response to Normbc9

Sir, sorry for your losses on the Inaja; that had to have been a real b-t-- to try and get a grip on. That is some rough country there. You sure must have a wealth of knowledge about fire in San Diego Co. You must be a very well seasoned fire dog.

You are absolutely right about the City of San Diego; just like New Orleans. Want someone else to bail them out but want to be the "Big Guy" when it comes to running a county department. Obviously you live in SD and know there are a lot of good departments/organizations here. I have a saying going back at least 25 years that "San Diego is the Biggest, Little Hick Town in the country".

I think that the best way to get an effective fire service for the rural areas, if they can agree to it; is have all the little rural departments become schedule "A" and the county add the number of additional stations and units they feel appropriate. Leave the cities the way they are, unless they want to join. I do not believe San Diego county can run an effective county wide department. It needs to come from CDF; a chief with a proven track record.

Leave Ramona, Valley Center and North County (actually is it not Deer Springs?) as they are; Schedule "A" still under the overall CDF umbrella. They are not broken or dysfunctional outfits, don't need fixing. How to integrate "Heartland" might be an issue. (Might be where some of the turf wars originate also.) (Heartland is a Joint Powers Authority to run an ECC.) They actually have an effective integration of the paid departments; I think is gets a little dysfunctional that they also deal with Palomar Mountain and a lot of the departments further out east of Ramona. The volunteer departments work their hearts out on their job. The VFDs are dealing with a dispatch center that really is for the smaller East county cities. Back up for all of the VFDs is CDF/USFS or the Reservation Departments, all of which are under control of MonteVista ECC. (Except for Barona Reservation which uses Heartland, in spite of the Ramona FD being the primary back up for them.)

Heartland is sometimes is a little slow to notify MVU ECC when they tell units a CDF engine is also responding. There are some MVU engines that know what VFD calls they will go on and they roll when those calls get dispatched. They tell MVU ECC they are rolling long before MVU knows they are supposed to go.

Now when it is CDF/CNF rolling together you can sometimes hear the other being dispatched, in the background. (You can tell I listen to the scanners too much.)

For those not familiar, MonteVista ECC is the center for CDF MVU and Schedule "A" departments, CNF, BIA, some BLM and FWS and some small rural departments in the south east part of the county.

Normbc9; some day it will get straightened out. You have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year; and the same to all the TheySaid readers out there.

ht
12/24 Flying:

There is all this talk about flying at night when the aircraft shouldn't even be
flying in those conditions even during during the daylight. The wind was 50+
mph and the drops couldn't be supported by ground troops.

DE

12/24 SoCal Firestorms: Inaja in 1956 and this year 2007...

Ab,

I, along with CDF engines from Witch Creek and Ramona in unison with CNF engines from Barona, Henshaw and Pine Hills were the IA force on the 1956 Inaja fire. It, too, occurred during some very extreme east wind conditions. We all worked our hearts out to try to get some kind of a foot hold on that fire, but it just simply got up at the tops of the brush on the north side (south facing exposure) and ran from Eagle Peak Road west to the Dye Canyon and Barona Truck Trails in about twenty minutes (five miles) and the smoke column never reached up skyward. It was all horizontal smoke stream down canyon following the San Diego Riverbed.

In the next hour there were at least 25 engines, four dozers and fifteen hand crews on scene and assigned. Those were the days before aircraft. On the second day, two aerial N3-N’s were brought down from Oroville for an experiment. The final fire tally was, unfortunately, that several brave firefighters being supervised by USFS Descanso District personnel died in the San Diego River canyon. A wind shift caught them by surprise. Both fire agencies were at the maximum effort and even found themselves defending their respective Base camps from the fire. We all spent our Thanksgiving still assigned to the fire, but all were mourning the loss of fellow professionals.

The recriminations in the media began immediately and rumor after rumor passed on the radio talk shows. Accusations ran amok. The firefighters who were in the middle of the firefight knew what the truth was, but every time they tried to speak out some agency attorney or manager tried to prevent the stories from getting out. The same happened in 1970, 1992, 2003 and now 2007. In my opinion, what is the real truth is in the indifference in the governmental bodies of San Diego City and County. Both remind me of what I hear about the New Orleans situation. They want someone else to bail them out.

I can however identify with what retired San Diego City Fire Chief Jeff Bowman is saying. He was one of those guiding lights the fire service was counting on to help identify the problems that were the task of the Blue Ribbon Commission to ferret out. The job that group performed and the results of their work are legend, in my book. Look at the record. L.A. County went to work, implemented most of the recommendations, and the 2007 wild fire records will bear out. Considering the structures exposed, their loses were much less than the governments who tried to do this on the cheap.

And yes, Chief Bowman is correct. Cal Fire’s top leadership is now compromised by politics. Look at the news clips. Who was following the governor to every fire (Grijalva and the Resources Secretary) who were the window dressing the governor so desperately needed. The relaxation of the fire resources in this state were initiated on the order of the governor. Just days before the fire siege. When trouble hit, all were pretty much caught by surprise with the exception of the counties of Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara.

Make no mistake about it, if it wasn’t for the CDF Firefighters and the FWFSA, both parent agencies at the top are led by ineffective managers and they'd be totally paralyzed, if it wasn’t for the labor groups asking some questions and demanding some answers. Don’t let anyone mislead you saying that there are better circumstances in Cal Fire. Cal Fire does have very effective Unit Chiefs, but these are offset by some indecisive leaders further up the chain. If it wasn’t for the presence of many Schedule A contract funded personnel, Cal Fire would be in the same or near same position the USFS is in the Fire Control groups.

Normbc9

12/24 Here's a link to info on the PCADS system.

www.defensetech.org/archives/003783.html

Mid West Fire Guy
12/24 RE: the current fed COLA's...

For those of you not yet retired... check out how well our fine Congress
treats retired feds... for those under CSRS... 2.3% ... same as Social
Security which is the lowest in recent years...

www.washingtonpost.com

Certainly food for thought for those on the "stay or go" fence...
--
retired green yactak
12/23 I am fascinated, although not necessarily surprised to read the critical commentary from folks to the San Diego media about Cal-Fire's role, responses, policies during the recent fire siege.

The fascinating thing is that those who are named as the most critical in the media were at the recent hearings in San Diego held by Senator Feinstein's Interior Appropriations Subcommittee and were on witness panels that provided them an opportunity to offer their comments in a forum that might have actually done some good...not wait weeks later and nail Cal-Fire or the federal response in the media.

If you've got something to say, say it when it counts. Don't wait for the media to contact you for a sound bite.

Having taken an engine company to the Oakland Hills fire years ago and seen the stunning action of wildfires, there is no way in heck I am going to second guess the responses of either Cal-Fire or federal agencies on these fires.

The hearings were the perfect opportunity for the San Diego Fire Chief to address Cal-Fire's no-night flying policy. She remained silent on the matter. And with a great deal of respect for former Chief Bowman who, for the most part "said it like it is" at the hearings, he failed to offer his assessment then that San Diego should "get rid of Cal-Fire."

Perhaps if these opinions were offered at the hearings, substantive efforts in resolving some of the issues could have been made. Instead it is in the press and will only serve to fester any ill-will between these agencies.

So while my heart & soul lies with federal wildland firefighters, I think we should be fair to all those that did their best during stunningly difficult times in Southern California and elsewhere this year.

So with that, Best wishes to everyone for a wonderful holiday season and an even better 2008.

Casey
12/23 from the hotlist forum on the criticism of the 2007 firestorm response:

More of the same from Jarman, the city, and the local politicians. I think it's interesting to read the responses from the public. They get it! A lack of control, interoperability, and very poor brush management in the WUI is the key. Not spotters and night flying helicopters. Look at LA, they had ample resources and night flying helicopters but homes are still lost. Just like every major fire in the WUI. As long as San Diego still has inept leaders there problems will never be solved.

CDFFF

12/23 from james on the hotlist forum on the criticism of the 2007 firestorm response:

CDF is really taking a beating down in San Diego. Any of us who were there know who was doing what and it was not the departments in the article below. We need to support our brothers and sisters and start writing some letters and make some phone calls. The people of San Diego are going to get screwed if the city fire department takes control of wildland fires there. The citizens are not being served.

Please write......
To be considered for publication, a letter must include a daytime phone number and, if faxed or mailed, be signed. It may be sent to Letters Editor, The San Diego Union-Tribune, Post Office Box 120191, San Diego, CA 92112-0191, faxed to (619) 260-5081 or
e-mailed to letters@uniontrib.com

12/23 thread on the hotlist forum, on the criticism of the 2007 firestorm response:

Cal Fire drawing heated criticism over policies
www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...23calfire.html

Experts cite agency's rigid approach to job
By Tony Manolatos Mark Sauer and Jeff McDonald
Union-Tribune Staff Writers
December 23, 2007

The call from Cal Fire came at 10:19 p.m.: Could Copter 1 rescue a man who had fallen off an ATV on a steep slope near Barrett Lake?

Sixty minutes later, the San Diego Fire-Rescue Department helicopter was hovering above a dark ravine in East County, battling gusting winds as the crew hoisted the 300-pound victim to safety.

The city firefighters understood precisely what was expected of them that night in August. As the only helicopter crew in San Diego County equipped to fly after dark, they answer such calls about 50 times a year.

What they can't understand, however, is why Cal Fire asks them to fly at night to rescue people but says it's too risky for them from to fly at night to drop water on wildfires, a far-less-dangerous job.

Fire experts say Cal Fire's ban on night flying is just one example of the rigid structure that defines the state firefighting agency, which is responsible for controlling most major wildfires.

Interviews with more than a dozen fire officials and politicians reveal a growing concern that Cal Fire's approach to firefighting made it harder to protect homes and save lives during the October wildfires in Southern California, even though the agency had been told to correct similar problems that surfaced during the 2003 fires.

Many of them said Cal Fire has become a politicized bureaucracy, saddled with a tight budget, layers of questionable policies and less influence in most of the state's largest counties.

These increasingly vocal critics say wholesale changes are needed.

Some are calling for new leadership. Others want a fresh approach to firefighting that employs the best strategies from departments across California. All agree on one thing: To prepare Southern California for future firestorms, Cal Fire needs more resources, more accountability and fewer restrictions, particularly when it comes to night flying and deploying military aircraft.

Some suggest that San Diego County – which lost more homes than any other county in October – would be better served with a unified firefighting approach that relegates Cal Fire to a supporting role, instead of allowing it to direct the fight. Six other California counties have taken that step.

The county Board of Supervisors already is considering buying 50 fire engines to offset the lack of state resources. And the city of San Diego is trying to find money to buy a second firefighting helicopter, partly because Copter 1 was the only helicopter flying over the city for the first two days of the fires, when 365 homes burned in Rancho Bernardo.

San Diego Fire Chief Tracy Jarman said her department needs “immediate access and control of air resources to respond immediately to work with crews on the ground.”

Frustrated by the state's lack of support, she has already told her staff to begin negotiating with the Navy for the use of its helicopters during future wildfires. That way, the city could bypass Cal Fire rules that limited the use of military aircraft during the last two firestorms.

The Navy copters are equipped with the same night-vision technology used on Copter 1 and on helicopters used by the Los Angeles city and county fire departments.

Jarman says it's easier to fight fires from the sky after dark, because the winds are usually calmer and night-vision goggles in effect light up the ground below like a video game.

But Cal Fire, whose pilots don't have the new technology, says safety is the issue.

Former San Diego Fire Chief Jeff Bowman, who was in charge during the 2003 Cedar fire, thinks city and county leaders should simply “get rid of Cal Fire.”

“I'm not knocking the firefighters of Cal Fire. I'm knocking the structure and how it's managed,” Bowman said. “I truly believe their leadership – there isn't any. It's all politics.”

But expecting lawmakers and the 65 fire departments within San Diego County's 18 cities and rural areas to support a unified plan is like expecting to win the lottery. The idea has been discussed for years, but turf battles inevitably rise, leaving San Diego County one of the largest and most populous in the nation without its own regional fire department.

Even the counties that rely on Cal Fire only for backup are demanding more from the state agency the next time around. (to read the rest, click the link at the top)

WLF.com Fair Use Disclaimer

12/23 Making the hotshot rounds...

Subject: ASC-HCM, Interagency Hotshot Crew Permanent Positions

Good Morning,

I just spoke to Lynda Kinney at ASC-HCM and the influx of e-mails and phone calls about the status of current permanent IHC positions is overwhelming them.

During January, a meeting will take place at ASC with classifiers and HCM personnel to discuss and attempt to resolve the following:

- Career ladder positions with in the IHC organization
- Open continuous announcements for all IHC positions
- Position description standardization across the country
- The use of the GS-7 vs GS-6 Squad Leader Position Description

I have requested that a least one representative of the IHC organization attend to answer questions on crew configurations across the country and any other pertinent questions that the classifiers may have.

I realize everyone is pushing to get positions filled before the upcoming fire season, however until that meeting very little will be resolved through continuing phone calls and e-mails except to delay other work ASC is doing.

A nation-wide approach is in our best interest and really the only way this will get resolved since HCM has been consolidated in Albuquerque. If you were to do anything it would be that your Regional Fire Director and Line Officers understand and approve the use of a GS-7 Squad Leader position description. It will be up to the classifiers of the PD that might be used in conjunction with development of a career ladder.

Please forward this request to limit the contact until after the meeting to the crews you represent.

I will advise you of the representative when attendance is approved.

If you have questions call. Thanks for your time.

<snip name>
<snip IHC supt affiliation>
Region 3

12/23 Sent in by Firescribe, FYI:

Federal Pay Raise, Part Two
12/21/07 02:00

Thanks to last-minute action by Congress, white collar feds will get a bigger January raise than the 3 percent hike authorized by President Bush.

Last month, the OPM published pay tables (which we also carried) showing the impact of the raise after city-by-city locality differentials were figured in. We told you at the time that the chart was accurate but that it wasn't necessarily the final word. The issue was whether Congress would pass an Omnibus spending bill that included the higher (3.5 percent) raise, and, if it did, if the President would sign it.

Bottom line: They did and he will!

The pay raise goes into effect with the first pay period beginning on or after January 1, 2008. For about-to-retire feds, most of their unused annual leave will be paid at the new, higher 2008 rates.

Under the original White House plan, the largest concentration of federal workers (those in the Washington-Baltimore area) would have gotten a 2.49 percent increase in January. But once the Omnibus bill is signed into law and after locality pay is factored in, most of those 300,000 feds will get a 3.49 percent raise. That extra percentage point will also boost the value of their life insurance, their eventual retirement annuity and the value of their annual leave.

The new pay tables will be posted on the OPM website soon.

Meantime, here's an estimate of what the raises will be for selected cities:

Chicago, 3.65 percent... Dallas-Ft. Worth, 3.72 percent... Huntsville, 3.07 percent... Los Angeles, Sacramento and Seattle, 3.5 percent... San Francisco, 4.23 percent... San Diego, 3.91 percent... San Diego, 3.9... New York City, 3.97 percent... and Richmond, 3.39 percent.

Feds who are in what is called RUS (which stands for Rest-of-U.S.) will get an estimated 2.99 percent.

The Nearly Useless Factoid
Today, it's completely useless for those who follow The Federal Drive, but in case you missed it, someone has actually gone to the trouble to list the Top Ten Worst Christmas Cracker Jokes Ever and the London Daily Telegraph has gone ever further by publishing the list. If pushed, we could probably explain what a "cracker" is (according to Brits), but we'd be hard pressed to explain British humour. They did say these are the worst. Enjoy!

To reach me: mcausey@federalnewsradio.com
www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=7

WLF.com Fair Use Disclaimer

12/22 Yesterday's Mail:

Our office received an envelope from our Zone dispatch yesterday addressed
to "California Fire Fighters". In the envelope was a note and drawing from a
grade school student in California saying thank you for helping put out the fires.

Our thanks to all in the dispatch chain that got this note to us. Glad we could
help and ready to do it again if there is ever a need.

Seasons greetings.

Midwest Fire Guy

12/22 Thanks to Casey for his words of support and the help, encouragement, and information he's offered over the years.

FWFSA member, I've said it before and I'll say it again: NFFE and FWFSA are not competitors. We are two organizations committed to advancing your interests. I know Casey busts his butt to this end. So do I and others who have chosen to serve as union officials. There should never be a "credit" battle -- both NFFE and FWFSA are pushing in the same direction.

For example, let me quote from a 6/15/07 post by Casey:

I am pleased to report that the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association's efforts, along with those of the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE), specifically Mark Davis, to educate Congress on the "unintended consequences" of PL 107-203 has resulted in legislation being introduced today by Sen's Cantwell (D-WA), Bingaman (D-NM) & Domenici (R-NM) that would expand coverage of those eligible for reimbursement of 50% of any liability insurance premiums.

And this from a 6/28/07 post from me:

We were also encouraged to see the liability insurance co-pay in the Senate bill. We worked hard to push this and I know Casey (a good man to have on your side!) did as well. We will continue to work with Congress to clarify the scope of this provision and encourage its passage into law. This is only a band-aide on the liability issue; we will also continue to work on building a statutory "privilege" firewall around information obtained by a safety investigation.

To FWFSA and NFFE member, right on. We are both member-sponsored organizations whose effectiveness depends upon the support of our members. I will never encourage a federal firefighter to chose one organization over another. I have too much respect for Casey's work. Membership in both is great. But if you can only join one, for goodness sake flip a coin and join one. The problem is not NFFE "winning" members at FWFSA's expense, or vice versa. The problem is those who benefit from the work of both organizations but support neither. Get in the game, folks! We're winning some major battles here. But there's more work to be done. To take it to the next level, we need your support. NFFE and FWFSA.

Finally, a clarification: while the original language stopped coverage at the ICT3, DIVS level -- the new language in the bill extends coverage all the way down to an ICT5, single resource boss, squad boss, and others who were originally left out. The word document in my 12/20 post give more details.

I'll get back with an update on the competitive sourcing language later, but for now I'm going to get back to enjoying the holidays with my family. Merry Christmas to all.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Thanks Mark. Ab.

12/22 Ab,
On a lighter note... Got my (your) calendar. A work of art, very nice.
Thank you much.

contractor

PS. Just got in from a 14 hour shift plowing snow on I-90 for MDT.
(Montana Department of Transportation) Might plow on Christmas also,
Ho,Ho,Ho.

Glad you like it. We do too. Happy holidays. Ab.

12/22 Ab,

I guess you allow for postings like Johnivan's because it promotes free expression (which is a good thing) and allows one to learn something. Hopefully some fellow feds, much smarter than I will teach Johnivan a few things over the next few days. My thoughts....

Forget about FMAG or F this or F that, and try to understand how the mutual aid system works. We as a whole would lose at a minimum 25% effectiveness w/o CAL FIRE, COUNTY FIRE, LOCAL FIRE and FED FIRE working together on each other's fires and other emergencies. The people of this state or any other state expect cooperation and understand cooperation has a price.

More important than that, is that it always astounds me to hear firefighters calling out other firefighters. You can expect that from Lawyers, Stockbrokers and Politicians, but Firefighters, common Johnboy! I'm Forest Service and will be a Forest Service Firefighter my whole career. However, I wouldn't lose much sleep or respect for a fire agency because they wouldn't pay to fix my ride. My concern was that it was fixed quickly and correctly.

You said:
I just heard CDF, oh sorry CAL FIRE. Cut with the cutesy crap please, that's embarrassing.

You said:
I lost a lot of respect for CDF. You lost a lot of respect because someone made a decision not to pay for a vehicle repair? Did you ever think that maybe a Fed Agency Rep made that decision?


YOUR ANSWER:
www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/cooperators/rev03_ca_fire_assist_agrmt_2002-2006.pdf

This agreement has been extended through the end of 2007.

Governor's Office of Emergency Services, hereinafter referred to as State OES; the USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Region; the State of California, Department of Forestry and Fire Protection; the USDI Bureau of Land Management, California State Office; the USDI National Park Service, Pacific West Region, and USDI Fish and Wildlife Service, California –Nevada Operations, the latter five parties hereinafter referred to as Forest Agencies

A-17. State OES assumes the normal cost of repair or damage to State OES-owned apparatus, which may result from use under the terms of this agreement.

A-16. State OES shall assume operational costs, including necessary motor fuels and lubricants used in State-owned OES apparatus while responding to and returning from Forest Agency incidents.

A-21. Forest Agencies* will provide for motor fuel and lubricants, normal servicing costs, and minor repairs incidental to operation of apparatus including local jurisdiction support equipment while under direction and control of the requesting Forest Agency. Minor Repair is defined as any repair necessary to keep the equipment in operation on the fire, which requires not more than two hours (labor time only) for one mechanic for any one job, exclusive of obtaining parts.

COST OF APPARATUS AND EQUIPMENT LOSS OR DAMAGE
23. A Forest Agency may reimburse a local agency for the cost of apparatus or equipment loss or damage where the loss or damage is directly caused by the fire being suppressed, and where the local agency, its employees and/or operational failures in the apparatus or support equipment are not a contributing factor to such damage or loss. Loss or damage to local agency apparatus or support equipment while enroute to or from an incident and repairs due to normal wear and tear or due to negligent or unlawful operation by the operator shall be the responsibility of the local agency providing the apparatus or equipment.
24. Loss or damage to local agency apparatus or support equipment occurring on an incident is to be reported to the incident finance section to ensure proper documentation and investigation.
25. If post incident help is needed for cost reimbursement, contact the appropriate Forest Agency, listed below:


Finally, the So Cal fire siege was a federal disaster that caused the largest evac in Ca history. As a Fed and Ca taxpayer, I expect the Fed gov to support state, local and Fed departments. Why? Remember the fire agencies who may receive federal funds, may also be the same dept that is tasked with saving lives. We all have moms and dads, grandparents or kids. I want and will pay for a strong well-staffed fire dept in my community that is not burdened with paying for a federal disaster(s).

Good Grief, go vent somewhere else, because comments like yours are not something the overwhelming majority of readers in this forum find acceptable.

ms

Italics above are not Ab's. <tongue firmly in cheek>

12/21 While a success story locally, the story wasn't put to the ultimate test. or of its designed purpose by those who analyised it..

Repeat the test and collaborate the findings under Jun-Jul fire and weather conditions...... That is the test of fuel treatment effectiveness in most of Region 3.

I'd bet different results would have been achieved under a different set of known and established variables.

Supervisory Fuels Technician
12/21 Johnivan:

Maybe a bit strong on the words you used but if it looks like an FMAG (Fire Management Assistance Grant), smells like an FMAG and costs the federal taxpayer like an FMAG... then its an FMAG.

Apparently the LA Times doesn't know what an FMAG is or the details behind them. Maybe someone should educate them. Perhaps if they did, they could ask Cal-Fire why the need for federal reimbursement for a service state tax payers apparently think they are paying for and why should federal taxpayers across the country pay the freight with their tax dollars to bail out California state and municipal fire agencies.

Heck someone should ask the LA Times, or FEMA or Cal-Fire why all those federal dollars aren't going to help retain federal firefighters and instead are going to help "reimburse" agencies for their better salaried firefighters.

Why should a firefighter in some other part of the country have his/her federal tax dollars go to pay salaries of other firefighters for doing the same job?

My crystal ball shows me a response from <¿Santa Claus?> in the near future.

Fedwatcher II

The italics are entirely the contribution of Ab who seems to have lost his tongue in his cheek! Cheers, Fedwatcher II!

12/21 Hi Joe,

I have been using Beyond Tranquillon Ridge as one of the primary text books in my Firefighter Safety and Survival class since it was published in 2004. Outstanding research and thank you for not making the text a political attack against any of the federal, state or local government fire agencies. Beyond Tranquillon Ridge provides a platform for students to analyze “where we were back when, to where we are now.”

When combined with case studies, selected readings, presentations from burn survivors and entrapment crew members, and the reading of Deep Survival, Beyond Tranquillon Ridge has allowed my students to see that safety is much more that a “green vs.. red,” “command vs.. the line,” or any of the other “us vs.. them” issues. As I read this semester’s final exams it heartens me to see that many of my students are able to see past the “mistakes” and concentrate on the human factors of each fire.

Thanks,

FOBS 73

12/21 Mike Johns, nice job!

It's nice to have that good fuel treatments burn example all in one place.
Should be on the hotlist too so it easily can be found with a search.

Everyone,

Whoooooo Hoooooooo, it's winter solstice! We're doing our annual
"Burning Old Man Winter" bonfire!

Happy holidays to all!

Mellie

12/21 To all you FWFSA Members writing in about NFFE...

Mark Davis is 'THE' man when it comes to FS outsourcing and efforts to keep the Forest Service from encroaching on fire and related occupations.

Yea the FWFSA worked with many of the same congressional folks as did Mark and NFFE but he truly deserves all the credit. He and I spoke on many occasions sharing info etc but he truly did the bulk of the work.

To the member who wrote that the FWFSA does not have political ties or agendas...better give me a call!!!

The important thing to remember is that NFFE as a labor union is bound by labor-management rules under Title 5 of the United States Code. The FWFSA, as an employee association is not bound by such rules. Thus, I would like to think that both organizations compliment each other with respect to our overall efforts on behalf of federal wildland firefighters.

Granted my relationship with NFFE leadership is primarily in R5 although Mark Davis is far from R5.

So, whether its the liability issue, outsourcing or even the current nutty housing policy offered up by the Deputy Forest Supervisor on the Los Padres, NFFE has their job to do, we have ours but if there is an opportunity to work together collectively we will.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Heh, wondered if that post would get you using dialup.... Ab.

12/21 Here is the link I read about cdf getting the money.

www.dailynews.com/ci_7780371?source=rss

I also wanted to say that I do respect all fellow firefighters.
I was just venting.

Johnivan

12/21 Johnivan, I am sensing a little frustration and hostility my friend. Let's try
to set the record straight.

A. You "heard" we were going to receive 41 million dollars. I
for one have "heard" a lot of things. Most of which if you
have been in this business long enough, know turn out to
be complete B.S. So when we actually get some money.
Then let's talk.

B. Cal Fire will pay for damages if they are related to the
to the incident. I have no idea what this issue
was with your engine. However it may well have initially
looked to be incident related. Once we find out through
mechanical troubleshooting that it may not have been
incident related, then we will not pay for the repair.

C. If the engine operator or the Forest your engine belongs
too. Believes they are getting the shaft. Then it goes to
the USFS Agency Rep assigned to the incident.
They will negotiate the issue with the I.C. or Dep. I.C. of the
Incident Command Team responsible for the incident.

Johnivan, I am sorry we have lost your respect. This is unfortunate. Fortunately
for us, we have the respect of many others.

Cal Fire Jake

12/21 Hello all

I just heard CDF, oh sorry CAL FIRE, is going to receive around 41 million from US grants and OES. I am a federal firefighter. I was on the Harris fire, when the engine I was on broke down. At first CDF said they would pay for repairs, but when all said and done they didn't pay for cr*p. I am so glad that they are going to get all this money for fighting the fires but can't pay for an engine that broke on their fire. I lost a lot of respect for CDF.

I am staying with the federal service I am not going to jump ship.

Johnivan

I don't know what the rules and SOPs and channels are for paying for things like broken engines. Anyone know? Anyone want to fill us in? Ab.

12/21 To Theysaiders:

I am so grateful for They Said – it is used widely. As readers, I would like you, through this next year, to support the companies that pay for ads here on wildlandfire.com, so that this site can support all of us. Let the companies know, when making your purchases, that you saw their ad on They Said.

We're sending the wildland community a wonderful, warm wish for the holidays and we've toasted to all of you from our bottle of Jaeger Meister that's been in the freezer since Family Day in May. Really warm wishes and a Happy New Year.

Cheers! (hiccup....)

Vicki, Burk, Melissa, and Candace
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Thanks Vicki.

Readers, with respect to Professional Liability Insurance, don't forget the FEDS offer of six months free when you make the switch by the end of the 2007 year. Tony and crew were the ones that Wright called on to do the work for those on Cramer and 30Mile. That legal brain power is working for all of us now through FEDS. Browse their website. Make a change.

Our wildlandfire.com calendars are pretty neat too. (Link and discount code at the top left of this page.) Ab.

12/21The Jobs page Wildland Firefighter Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) & Series 0401 (Biologist) have been updated. Ab.
12/21 Hi Ab,

Christmas Eve fundraiser for WFF - Peets Coffee in Orange County CA:

Peets will be giving free drip coffee & tea and collecting donations for the WFF at 3 stores on Dec 24 from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. closing. I urge everyone in the area to stop in for a free cup of coffee and drop some cash in the jar. Peets will match the donations up to $1000.00.

Peets in the Corona Del Mar Plaza in Newport Beach will be collecting for the Santa's Helper Fund. My son will be at the Newport Beach store to encourage donations and answer questions about the foundation and wildland firefighting.

Peets in the Tustin Marketplace and Peets on El Toro Rd. in Lake Forest will both be collecting for the WFF General Fund.

Please stop in and drop some money in the donation jar for our Wildland Firefighter Foundation that does so much for everyone in wildland fire. We (family, friends & public) need to step up and support our heroes in any way we can and donating to the WFF is a great way to do so.

Annette

12/21 This came in from Arizona quite a while back. I've finished making a photo page for it and linking the appropriate docs. It's a good story of how fuel treatments and fuel breaks should and do work and is applicable to many situations on our ever-growing interface. Our thanks to Mike Johns, who many of you will recognize as contributing here before. Ab.

Abs: I am an Assistant U.S. Attorney who teaches a Fire Law course, and a former wildland firefighter. November 2005 we completed much of the pile and broadcast burning on my private land and the adjacent Forest, Payson Ranger District, under an MOU. Ice cold night winds falling off the Mogollon Rim added some excitement, but it was very successful in reducing dead fuels which were 30 tons per acre in places. The fire environment is the same as the Dude Fire, but better in November than in June. Many firefighters are familiar with my place from other fires as well, Kehl Ridge, Bray, December, Packrat and Webber.

Burning started 10 feet from my Ranch House with the Globe Inmate Crew assisting. They had no hot food for next breakfast, or shelter when I arrived, and were going to bed down outside. I opened up the Ranch House and Bunk House and made sure everyone had a bed or a couch or a cot, and hot water then went back to town for snacks and breakfast food. One of the inmates was an early riser and cook so I had him get me up early from my couch near the fire and we cooked up a huge breakfast. The Navajo Scouts replaced the Globe crew and I had a chance to visit with them as well, many of whom had been on the Dude Fire.

So far, this thinning and burning project has been a major success considering my 25 acres surrounded by Forest in a box canyon under the Rim had been at serious risk for a catastrophic and dangerous situation. Thanks are due the Forest Service, the Arizona State Land Department and the firefighters who have worked so diligently to complete this project. Here are some photos of the burning operations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After we completed this prescribed fire in November, 2005, in February 2006 a campfire blew off the Mogollon Rim and raced toward the Ranchhouse as a crown fire until it reached the fuel break. The treatment done by us, the State Land Department and the Forest Service made it safe enough for firefighters to work and saved the historic structures and orchards. The February Fire eventually burned over 4,000 acres around us. You should link to the attached paper which received National/Congressional attention as one of the success stories of fuel treatments under the National Fire Plan. Mike Johns

Here's a 1472K pdf file of maps, etc: Bray Creek Ranch Rx treatment
This is a 60K msword doc that will download if you click this link:
  fuel treatment February Fire (60K doc file)

12/21 Got some new logos up on the Logo 13 photo page. Ab.

Messages follow:

I know you don't get many Dispatch logos, but I completed this one for
Central Idaho Interagency Coordination Center last year.
Tim B.

Here is the logo for La Cima Conservation Camp (Julian, CA).
MVU La Cima CCC

12/21 FWFSA Member:

As a member of both organizations I believe that they are both important, many times people (especially fire) get frustrated with NFFE, but we need to remember that they have done a lot of good and continue to do good for the WHOLE FS. Personally, no matter who worked on the bill it is a step in the right direction but does fall a little short still: as an ENGB, ICT 4 type you are not covered it stops at the ICT 3, DIVS level. There are many decisions at the ENGB or CRWB level that are made and I feel you should be covered, look at Ellreese Daniels.

FWFSA and NFFE Member
12/21 Mark Davis,

Unlike many in the USFS "leadership", the partnership of the FWFSA is an employee association without political ties or agendas and completely spanning the GS-2 through GS-15 levels who led the way to changes..... with collaboration of the NFFE Partnership Council assisting as they could.... Not the other way around.

Who takes the credit for changes doesn't really matter in the long term. If NFFE or the R5 Partnership Council wants to take credit, please do so..... and follow through. What matters is the change.

It has been a foundational difference between Unions and Employee Associations. Unlike many Unions, the leadership and management of many who have dedicated their lives and careers upon the communication between the FWFSA members of all levels..... GS-2 to GS-15.

We won't play games with issues. We are the issues. It is personal to us at all levels.

FWFSA member

Thanks to both groups for doing what you do. There are other shops within the FS that are watching the bill carefully. In addition to liability, the whole outsourcing process is very time and money consuming. Ab.

12/21 Joe,

Best of retirement to you.

Beyond Tranquillon Ridge was a great book to read and remember the
losses and the horrible tragedy from first hand accounts, but I remember
the stories best when you described them to us personally over a few
cold ones a few years ago.

We never knew....

Lobotomy

12/20 Ab asked...

Readers, here's a pic of the '06 Lakeview Fuels Crew on Handcrews 22. Does anyone know if this is Lakeview, Oregon? Is it a state crew or FS or some other agency crew? Thanks for any info. Ab.

The crew in he picture is BLM crew 7 out of Klamath Falls Oregon (Lakeview BLM). The info below the picture is pretty accurate. the crew was funded as a fuels reduction crew. They also had suppression responsibilities, mostly local, but some of unit stuff. Crew was set up as a type 2 IA with 1- Superintendent, 1- Foreman, 3- Module leaders (Squaddy), and the balance crewmembers. I believe they had 10 perms, ranging from PFT to perm 13/13's, and the rest temps. For equipment, I believe the crew had 4 six packs, multiple atv's, a type 6 engine (NWCG), a type 4 engine (NWCG), as well as lots of chainsaws. Pretty nice set up. Sadly, I have heard that the crew was disbanded after the 06 season, although that may not be true.

L-C-E-S

12/20 I emailed Cathy F asking for info too. Here's her reply... Boy that was quick! I added it to the description page. Thanks. Ab.

The photo was the BLM Lakeview District 2006 Fuels Crew located at Klamath Falls, Oregon. The crew that started in 2000 is one of several funded by the National Fire Plan - available for suppression but focusing on hard manual work and lots of prescribed fire. Cathy

12/20 lakeview is a blm fuels crew out of Lakeview oregon

ND

Thanks, I added the OR info to the description. Ab.

12/20 Hey Homey!

I didn't know you were on that fire!

That fire was a first for me in two ways:

It was the first time a fire was so close to the airport that I could see the
airtankers taxiing in and out of the pit at the tanker base. I told Pecos Valley
Dispatch I did not need airtanker status because I could see all 6 of them
all of the time.

It was also the only time I was involved in dropping retardant in a river...
the Pecos River. Oooops! We were all very contrite over that one and
learned not to do it again.

NMAirBear
12/20 Readers, here's a pic of the '06 Lakeview Fuels Crew on Handcrews 22. Does anyone know if this is Lakeview, Oregon? Is it a state crew or FS or some other agency crew? Thanks for any info. Ab.
12/20 AB,

These are from the Aztec fire near Roswell, NM in 2000. NMAirBear
was the ATGS on this fire.

Have a great day,
Homey

Thanks, Homey, I put them on AirTankers 24 photo page. Ab.

12/20 Ab, here's a pic of a West Texas fire:

Picture of range fire in Jones County Texas on Jan. 12, 2006. The truck
belongs to the Anson Volunteer Fire Dept. Anson, Texas. Picture taken
before the helicopters and planes arrived on the scene.

Submitted by Shannon H. Middlebrook

Thanks for the engine and flames. I posted it on the Engines18 photo page. Ab.

12/20 Just got a call from Casey who says all internet is down for him in Idaho and for the
FWFSA. He's taking a "snow day". His phone is working, however.

"Nerve center of the FWFSA" Casey-snow, but lots more.

Wildlandfire.com was also down this morning for 45 minutes. Those winter storms can take
their toll. If you can't get through to theysaid, just try again later. OA and I decided by
phone this morning that it was further indication we should all take a break and enjoy
our families when opportunities arise. Haw haw, several folks called to ask if we knew...

I got a call from one groundpounder needing his theysaid fix. He said he's spending time
at school with his kindergartner. They had so much fun the first day he's opted for
being there all week! Sounds like one fine alternative.

Have fun, All! Relax... Cheers!

Ab.

12/20 Someone did an outstanding Cost Benefit Analysis comparing the paying
of seasonals' unemployment insurance vs. hiring folks as career seasonals.
Does someone have a copy of that somewhere that they could send me?

Thanks,
Fishguy
12/20 Hello Ab,

Here are a couple of interesting articles from the Lompoc Record
concerning the 1977 Honda Canyon Fire on Vandenberg Air Force
Base.

Today is the 30 year anniversary and I thought your readers may
want to take a long trip back in time.

www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2007/12/20/news/featurednews/news01.txt
www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2007/11/13/news/featurednews/news01.txt

Here’s wishing you a very Happy Holliday,

Joseph Valencia

Hi Joe, nice articles, but for the full story I think people should get your book Beyond Tranquillon Ridge and read it. Here are some good reviews. I found your book very interesting. Ab.

12/20 From Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee:

To follow up on Casey’s post of 12/18, maybe I can shed some light on the coverage provided by the PLI provision in the 2008 omnibus appropriations bill. NFFE has been working with the Forest Service and Congress on providing broader coverage than was initially proposed. Here’s the short story.

The original PLI language would have expanded coverage to some, but not all, fire line supervisors. The original language would have modified the law to read (changes are in blue)

Word doc of the formatted version (33K) with changes in blue. Ab.

12/20 Ab,

So do you know any places in Canada that are recruiting wildland
firefighters with no experience?

JEB

12/20 Re: Recent Retirements

Steve Eubanks, the Forest Supervisor from the Tahoe National Forest, is also retiring after 37 years of service. Steve has been an outspoken supporter of wildland firefighter issues and delivery of the wildland fire program. He was one of only a few line officers who would put things right back onto the shoulders of the RLT and NLT for their decisions regarding management of the fire and fuels programs.

Steve always addressed the issues, listened to his fire managers, and was willing to support his troops in the field in getting the job done.

www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_72820.shtml

"Steve's collaborative leadership in sustainable forestry and connection with forest research has been noteworthy both inside and outside the agency," stated Randy Moore, Pacific Southwest Regional Forester.

Highlights of Eubanks' career have included:

- Working closely with researchers to develop concepts of forest ecosystem management that were a foundation for a Forest Service-wide program.

- Working with the Russian Forest Service in Central Siberia since 1995 to help develop sustainable forestry concepts and practices.

- Chairing the National Visiting Committee for a National Science Foundation Advanced Technological Education program.

- Helping establish the new Sagehen Experimental Forest near Truckee in cooperation with the Pacific Southwest Experiment Station and the University of California, Berkeley - the first new experimental forest in 40 years.

- Sponsoring Forest Sustainability Workshops locally in conjunction with the Forest Breakfast Group to promote greater understanding of Sierra ecosystems and their sustainability.
12/19 Midwest Fire Guy

Unfortunately, it’s almost a given that we’ll lose an average of two tanker
pilots/yr.

When you describe the wildland fire management community don’t forget
the Fire GIS Specialists! The job may not be the most glamorous; I’ve never
heard of high risk exposure to too many shapefiles, but the first thing folks
ask for during a wildfire is a map.

Fire Geek

Orienting, one prerequisite for situational awareness... Ab.

12/19 Ex Tanker Crewman

Thanks for the info on the P-3. They are a wonderful aircraft that
I have enjoyed and benefited from using. From what I have read
today sounds like they will be in our tool kit for many more years.

"What has always scared me is that a good majority of the
stones at the National Wildland Firefighter Memorial in Boise
came from contract airtanker crews...... For some reason,
their losses aren't appreciated or understood by some in
the wildland fire community."

I read once where if ground resources had the same death rate per
hour exposed to wildland firefighting as airtanker pilots is would be
many times higher than the worst year we ever saw. And no one
would find that acceptable. The nation has a duty to every wildland
 firefighter to provide them with safe, effective and efficient tools to
use. Wildland fire management is a big family. Hotshots to Type 2