I'll go back add add a note to each of the Code 2 posts... Sure was fun while it lasted... Ab.

Some great monikers. Ab.

HAW HAW haw... on the moniker... Ab.

Do a Google search for "Backfire2000" and you'll get the court
document that has all of the Judge's rulings and comments.

Hundekot

No worries, two contributors wrote in with the info. Ab.

Thanks a bunch for keeping us all abreast of what is transpiring. I whole-heartedly agree with your last post. Your comments, and my perception of what's happening in today's world, have led me to conclude that much of the staff and non-militia folks are all in it for themselves. Seems as though the outfit(s) are crumbling due to lack of communication, lack of teamwork, and lack of leadership. By teamwork, I mean the FS as a whole. It ain't there, and please, someone challenge me on that one. Teamwork within the fire organization still stands out, but the rest of them could give a (snip). A&FM, hold yourselves together, play and work as team, lead your people, and you will achieve production and satisfaction!

-Picker-

Thanks for snipping your own "bad" word. Good one. Ab.

.....Once the forest fire staff has an opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.

Isn't that the problem?

Peace

In California, the vehicle code essentially says code 3 is lights AND sirens.
Code 2 is an old term to go to a call/assignment directy, but WITHOUT
the use of lights and sirens, following all traffic laws. Obviously on a
response at 2 a.m., the lights are going but common sense kicks in when
to to use the noise maker. Same as going to calls on the freeway etc.
Any questions though in Ca., CHP would be glad to help I'm sure.

Former Green Soldier.

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab.

• Code 1 - Available on the air (driving in a patrol type status)
• Code 2 - Respond directly (no lights or siren)
• Code 3 - Respond Immediately (lights and siren)
• Code 4 - All clear (the scene has been secured and is safe)

I have worked in three states (including CA) and this seems to be the
common use.

COS622

At least thats what this Forest and several others are doing.

TC

Is this a hint they're shifting FIRE into LE & I??? (tongue in cheek) Ab.

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's next post. Ab.

"Employees shall not use emergency lights and sirens while the
vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code three
responses shall be conducted as code two."

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I may very well be, but isn't a
Code 2 response illegal. Is it not Code 1, Code 3, or no Code?

If not, wouldn't a Code 2 response be considered as using the
emergency lights while the vehicle is in motion anyway?

If not illegal, then would it not be reasonable to assume that responding
Code 2 would be more unsafe than responding Code 3? Considering
that you're taking away an extra warning device alerting other vehicles
to your presence, your objective, I would think that it would be much
less safe.

Just Curious.....

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab.

~~~Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab.~~~

Date: January 30, 2008
Subject: Use of Emergency Lights and Sirens
To: All Employees, District Rangers

Effective immediately and pursuant to FSM Interim Directives No.
5120-2007-1 and 5130-2007-2 employees shall not use emergency lights and
sirens while the vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code
three responses shall be conducted as code two.

Emergency lights may be used while stationary to facilitate operational or
safety objectives as determined by the vehicle operator or his or her
supervisor.

Once the forest fire staff has an opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.

All vehicle operators are required to operate at all times with the safety
of pedestrians, other vehicles and themselves as the primary objective of
travel. As a reminder:

• Come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red traffic control lights.
• Stop and do not pass any school bus with flashing warning lights.
• Adhere to posted speed limits.
• Travel at or below safe speeds based on road conditions, weather
  conditions, visibility and vehicle configuration.
• Obey all railroad crossing signals.
• Adhere to local regulations governing vehicle operation.

If you have any questions regarding this direction, please contact the Forest
Fire Management Officer.

I passed the names/phone numbers on to Driver51 who asked the question. Ab.

Ed doesn't go to BOD meetings anymore.

Many FFMOs are new and don't know what the BOD used to
initiate and accomplish in a unified way.

Seems that some FFMOs are hiding on their forests behind their
line officers so as not to be identified with R5 Regional Office.

It's a mess. The Forest Service is a mess. Someone told me they're
pressing to get it done before Bush leaves office. Don't know if
that's true.

Glad I'm retired and don't have to be in the middle of a melt
down in R5 communication and function. I heard at least one FFMO
is likely to retire before fire season. Maybe the retirement bubble is
being forced to burst.

Our cooperators should be worried.

Listen to me spouting negativity. Apologies...

NorCal Tom

noname fire

Matt

Ab, Please share the following information:

Services for Marc will be held
Feb 6th, 1200 at the
Faith Bible Chapel
6250 Wright St
Arvada, CO.

Please send all flowers or contributions to
Fairmount Fire
4755 Isabell Rd
Golden CO 80403.

Thanks to all for your thoughts, Marc's presence will be missed.
Take whatever piece he gave you and pass it on. His leadership
will live on through all of us.

LO

Thanks L. Sorry for your loss. Ab.

For those of you asking about services for Marc, we have received some info. It seems Fairmont FD will handle them but all is in the planning stages.

Shawna has lots of support from her crew and Marc's team with them organized in incident command style to deal with all necessary support functions. Her parents, brother and Marc's daughter are with her.

Cards can be sent to
Shawna Legarza
PO Box 785
Mancos CO 81328

Normbc9

Signed: We Don't need no stinking badges

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Round Robin within BLM, but the message path was not included:

I believe you are aware.....

Omnibus included authority to reimburse fireline supervisors for 50% of PLI
premiums. We need to implement in a coordinated manner between 2
departments and 5 agencies.

Wally J is the DOI lead to work with FS. Ahead is the determination of who
quals and then estab a process and finally a DOI policy/directive.

Sandy, will be a good idea to touch base with Wally

New language in 2008 Omnibus Bill.doc (28K doc file)

There seems to be a collective feeling with the folks that I work with that
we continue to hear about how we are the best in the business and need
to continue to move forward, but then the WO and RO force us to take
steps backwards.

Now more than ever, Fire Programs need to be managed by Fire
Managers who understand what we deal with when the call comes in.

That includes the calls that come before 0930 and after 1800.

SL

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab.

Oswego

KJoseph sent me the photo taken at Descanso in 1956. He mentioned Emmett
Donohue and here is a photo of Emmett my dad took at the annual CDF/USFS
pre-fire season meeting. This was in 1949 at the Flinn Springs County Park
just west of Alpine, CA. in San Diego County. Could you share this with him
and all.

1949 Historical CDF/USFS pre-fire season photo

Thanks,

Normbc9

Will pass any messages. Ab.

I like your number 5.

I asked for and got a automatic center punch for Christmas. Cool little tool.
Car of an acquaintance slid off an icy road and into a river and this kind of
tool, that breaks a car window and can slash a seatbelt if you can't release it,
saved her life.

One warning: Don't press it against your thumb to test it.

Mellie

Lobotomy said:

Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS AND SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often disproven without relevant facts being substantiated.

The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the same testimony that has been given for years..

The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and verifiable facts.

Here they are. Thanks, Lobotomy. Ab.

S. Hrg 110-11 -- Costs of Wildfire Suppression, January 30, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:34268.pdf (559K pdf file)

S. Hrg 110-58 -- Proposed Fiscal Year 2008 Budget Request for the Forest Service, February 28, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:35971.pdf (180K pdf file)

Since the mid 60's when I started in the automotive repair trade, I have seen more electrical problems than I care to remember.

That said, here are a few comments that I have:

1. All electrical circuits Must use properly sized components (ie; Wire, Fuses, Switches, Relays and Connectors) for the electrical loads they are going to carry.
2. Fuses and Circuit breakers need to installed as close to the power source (ie; Battery or power distribution block) as possible/practical, not at the component.
3. If electrical problems cannot be properly diagnosed and repaired at any particular repair shop, then consider having the vehicle towed to another shop that may have more expertise with electrical work. Wreckers and Rollbacks are cheaper than losing a vehicle to an electrical fire.
4. Most late model vehicles no longer have any extra places in their fuse blocks to add electrical loads (ie; mobile radios, radio and cell phone chargers, lightbars and other emergency lighting) and even the new battery terminals are frustrating. I like to use an insulated stud in a central location and run 4 gauge welding cable from the battery + to the stud and then run any other circuits that I'm adding from the stud using suitable components.
5. I highly recommend that everyone keep an automatic center punch in easy reach in every vehicle the operate/own. because they are spring loaded/operated they can instantly break any side or rear glass in any vehicle to allow escape in situations similar to the one mentioned in the safety alert and in particular in situations when a vehicle becomes submerged when other methods do not work! these automatic center punch's can be obtained at most hardware stores and home centers (Lowes, Home Depot etc.) and are not expensive.

Be Safe Out There,

Woody NCDFR

marc and team 2003
marc and team 2005-2006
marc by USNews & World Report (Brief www.usnews.com article, scroll down.)

Fair Use Disclaimer

Thanks contributors. Ab.

We've posted 3 new job vacancy announcements to the Jobs page. Check 'em out.

Ab.

sr5401, thank you!

My cousin lives in Brooklyn just across the river from the WTC and New Yorkers are worried about firefighters who were there and helped for days on end.

We had a number of wildland fire Incident Management Teams and individuals who responded...
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/nywtc_pentagon/sept11.htm 

Those of you who went to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon after 9/11 to help on our Incident Management Teams, please stay abreast of your annual check-ups and be aware of any lung symptoms you might have.

It's a shame and worse that firefighters who responded to 9/11 are not getting the medical help and support they need. Is there anything we can do to let our wishes for support be known to our congressional representatives?

Let's watch out for each other.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While not directly related to wildland fire, this is an issue that could have repercussions for the members of the Incident Management Teams that responded to rescue and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

sr5401

www.fireengineering.com/news/newsArticleDisplay.html?id=156713

9/11 worker's silent State of the Union protest
Newsday, Melville, N.Y. (January 29, 2008)

Jan. 29--WASHINGTON -- John Feal of Nesconset, had vowed never to return to the nation's capital.

The former demolition supervisor, whose left foot was crushed by an eight-ton steel beam while he worked to remove debris from Ground Zero, said it was simply too painful to be reminded of what he sees as the Bush administration's abandonment of him and other 9/11 responders.

But Monday, Feal, 41, gave it another shot, sitting in the gallery of the U.S. Capitol, along with eight other first responders, who are battling illnesses and other disabilities related to their service. Their presence was both rebuke and de facto demand to the Bush administration.

"I want to hear him say, 'I'm sorry,'" Feal said. "I want to hear him say that he's going to leave a billion dollars or more for 9/11 responders when he leaves office."

But Feal, who has set up his own foundation to help ailing 9/11 workers, admitted he is not terribly optimistic.

Earlier in the day, he and other men who became ill after working at Ground Zero appeared at a news conference alongside New York lawmakers and labor leaders, demanding the administration explain why it last month halted plans for a health monitoring and treatment program for Ground Zero workers around the country. They also urged passage of a long-term program to monitor those exposed to toxins after the Twin Towers' collapse.

"This isn't a political issue," said Feal, who has developed lung problems in addition to having 11 surgeries on his feet. "This is a moral and human issue. This is about people dying."

Rep. Tim Bishop (D-Southampton), praised Feal for the work of the Feal Good Foundation, but added, "he ought not have to do that. ... The public sector has the resources and it has the obligation."

Lt. James Riches of Brooklyn, an FDNY deputy chief who lost his firefighter son Jimmy that day, predicted that more people would eventually die from toxic exposure than were killed on 9/11. He has developed severe lung disease after search and recovery work.

"When I was down there digging through the pile, there was a gigantic sign, 'Never forget 9/11.' We hope our politicians don't forget us now," he said.

To see more of Newsday, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to http://www.newsday.com

Fair Use Disclaimer

On Friday January 25'th, Greg <snip> was in Yreka in his patrol vehicle
completing assignments. During the day, his vehicle exhibited a check
battery light periodically. Greg contacted Skip <snip> and the arrangement
was made to take it in to A-1 Auto for a check. A-1 was able to witness
the light activating but were not able to track it down to any problem.
The light simply came on and off with no pattern or obvious reason.

On Saturday January 26'th, Greg was patrolling the Snow Parks on the
Goosenest and stopped at 4-Corners Park to have lunch. Upon exiting the
park for the return trip to the office, his gauges began to fluctuate from
the low to high end and stopped at the upper level, this was paired with
steam coming form under the hood (smoke). Greg was able to find a location
to safely stop and turned off the vehicle to get out and check the cause of
the steam. The doors and windows would not unlock or open and allow exit
from the vehicle.

Greg reacted swiftly and turned the key to the on
position and was able to exit. He raised the hood and discovered the main
12 volt lead to his pump unit was burned to the bare wire. Greg
disconnected the wire from the battery and traced it back to his pump. He
found that at least 10 feet of the wire was burned and that when Serco
performed the install of the pump, they had failed to position an in-line
fuse in the main lead to guard against fire from a short.

The bottom line to this narrative is two fold.

1. Be aware that in case of a vehicle fire, the door and window manual unlock
   may be overridden and compromised.
2. If you have add-on equipment to your vehicle, make sure fuses are
   installed in the main wiring leads.

<snip original sender info>

Godspeed Marc.

SCR

Shawna, I'm so sorry to you and all in the fire community,
we lost a great friend... I met Marc when he was with BLM
on the INJO area and worked with him while he was with
the Boulder Fire Department.. My best to You.

JP Harris, LACOFD retired

Ab. when I was working for the forest service in R6 back in the late 80's for
reforestation. the Fire program borrowed lots of our planting money to pay
for some of the fires during those years...

MDS

ed-shafer-confirmed-as-secretary-of-agriculture

Ed Shafer Confirmed as Secretary of Agriculture
Wednesday, January 30, 2008

US - The United States Department of Agriculture has
confirmed that former Governor Edward Shafer will be
the new secretary of Agriculture, succeeding Mike
Johanns.

Meet the 29th Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer

(photo)

Secretary Schafer brings a record as an innovative
two-term governor of North Dakota to USDA along with
extensive private sector experience as both an
entrepreneur and a business executive.

Schafer served as North Dakota's governor from 1992 to
2000 and made diversifying and expanding North
Dakota's economy, reducing the cost of government and
advancing agriculture his top priorities in office.

<snip>

Secretary Schafer enjoys the outdoors and his hobbies
include bicycling, hiking, scuba diving and restoring
classic automobiles. He and his wife, Nancy, have four
children; Tom Schafer, Ellie Schafer and Eric Jones
and Kari Jones; and eight grandchildren.

more at the link...

I am deeply saddened to hear of Marc's passing. Marc was an excellent firefighter, leader, teacher, motivator, and friend. The most important thing I learned from Marc was 'always take care of your people'. It was hard not to have fun when around Marc, even when situations got to be a bit rough he had a way of keeping morale up while keeping the troops focused on the task at hand. He was a great guy that will be dearly missed.
My condolences to his family.
Godspeed, Marc.

Matt H

Vincit qui patitur. (The one who is patient wins.)

This Latin showed up at the bottom of his emails. Not a bad message for one fighting fire and responsible for others fighting fire. To me it says "Use tactics and firefighters appropriately. Safety first. Persist."

Godspeed, Marc. My best to his family. We've all lost a good one. Ab.

When someone as fine as Marc passes on it's hard to know what to say.
He was a good thinker, good strategist, cared for the troops, knew how
to communicate. He was a LEADER. It's hard to think that he won't be
around doing what he did well. Our loss, fire's loss. My condolences to
his family.

Roadrunner

Thanks. Well said. I understand your points. Changing % over those years also co-varied with the way finances were recorded and a lot of other changes going on, including an attempted shift to a new budgeting tool (that hasn't worked well). Ab.

"Quite frankly, no one knows where those numbers come from, whether they are 50% or 54%, or some other number. The reality is that there are people willing to quote those numbers and as importantly others that believe them."

Most important is the RESEARCH behind the numbers. A good Student of Fire would either verify or deny "the numbers". The numbers tell a story of a failing program since the 1950's and the folks who have the facts to justify their numbers.

WFHF should be included and focused upon, because it BECAME KING in keeping a failed program afloat..... just like the timber program.

on another note re the 01/2007 WO talking points:

Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS AND SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often disproven without relevant facts being substantiated.

The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the same testimony that has been given for years..

The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and verifiable facts.

Lobotomy

Thanks, Lobotomy. That is certainly a good point about the WO talking points. You're a relentless researcher on Fire's behalf as are some others in FWFSA. Many thanks for that. Ab.

Intothewind, it would be great if you'd try to do that if you need to in order to make your point.

If I recall correctly, I heard it in a presentation last year by Tom Harbour, FAM Chief or Kent Connaughton, Associate Deputy Forestry Chief, WO. Might have been a tape. Does anyone else recall that presentation last winter? I may also have seen it as a talking point on some doc that went out. Seems like "fire budget as xx % of the FS budget" came up several times over the last few years as the number was rising. If it was being shared as a talking point, I'm sure it was shared over and over at different meetings. It was used in the context of being a budget red flag for the FS.

I searched on "% of the Forest Service Budget" with quotes around it and found the link in a post by Bud on May 26, '06. It referred the reader to the Director's Corner, Tom Harbour's corner. In his post of May '06, Bud said

The fire budget used to be 13% of the Forest Service budget. Now it's 43%.

That was in '06. Last year in '07 it was up to more than 50%. Bud's comments on 5/26/06 theysaid are similar to OFG's points, that it's simply what it takes to run the fire program --cost of doing business.

Here's the budget page Bud pointed to: www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/budget/

A bit more digging into the archives and here's Tom Harbour's email from 2/1/07. By later in March he was saying 50% or 54% and I think Kent C was saying that too. In 2007 the % had already exceeded their 2008 projection. I'm posting it next as it was posted just about a year ago, sent in by noname. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Management Efficiencies Talking Points:

Wonder how everyone will feel about this one:

• Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.

noname
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Management Efficiencies Fact Sheet
January 29, 2007

• Over the last 20 years the Forest Service has been persistently challenged by fire management costs.
• Contributing factors to these cost challenges include climate changes, the expanding WUI, and general forest health conditions resulting in larger more intense fires.
• In 2006, fire suppression expenditures accounted for 40% of the Agency budget or $1.5 billion.
• In 2007, 41% of the Forest Service budget is allocated to fire management, and in 2008 that percentage climbs to 48%.
• Because of these escalating costs, other Agency programs are suffering and our ability to care for the land and serve the people is compromised.
• Various internal and external groups have studied these costs and have provided over 300 recommendations intended to curb increasing suppression costs if implemented.
• The Chief directed a small group of Forest Service subject matter experts to review and consolidate these recommendations and develop actions the Forest Service can take over the short and long term to support sound decision making and ensure prudent choices are made when spending. The resulting recommendations have been titled Management Efficiencies.
• These actions were categorized into Leadership, Operations, and Management and when implemented serve to ensure the following.
  • Clear and concise understanding of Appropriate Management Response – choosing the best suppression strategy for the resources and values at risk.
  • Expanded Knowledge, Skill, and Ability for Agency Administrators responsible for managing large or nationally significant fires.
  • Increased oversight from the Regional and Washington offices on incidents of national significance in support of the agency administrator.
  • Severity funds are used within limits.
  • Establishment of a definite budget for each incident (use of SCI).
  • Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.
  • Revision of the current aviation strategy ensuring the safe and financially prudent use of firefighting aircraft.
• The details of the proposed management efficiencies are being formulated and expected implementation of the short-term actions will begin in the 2007 fire season.

These recommendations go hand-in-hand with the variety of business processes the Forest Service has changed in recent years to more efficiently manage its resources.

Contact: Tom Harbour 202-205-08xx

Not sure if you have posted this R5 Fire Hire document or not. If not, could you
as this is good information for all those may have applied or are still on the fence,
since the region will be back filling once a position is filled.

Thanks,

noname on fire

"Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse that "my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've been there."

What happens when the Forest and District Fire Staffs know far more about the budgeting process (and where their budgets go) than new District Rangers or new Forest Supervisors that "somehow" come directly from the WO....... without any significant field experience?

Seems like what you keep calling "griping" is actually known as two-way leadership and communication.

Lobotomy

Yeah, I know that (but others reading may not). It seems strange that
"biologist" Series 401 was chosen to fulfill the South Canyon mitigation
for "professional". Thx.

NorCal Tom

Here's an article link from the theysaid archives:
www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/12/04/news/top/news01.txt

Tahoe Terrie

Sad news. We called and verified this information. Marc was the IC of the Rocky Mountain Team A (Type 2) for several years and was Martin's Rocky-Basin Type 1 Team trainee last season. He worked for Fairmont Fire Dept near Denver. Formerly he was FMO at Mesa Verde NP and worked for the Denver FD. Very sad news. Please let us know as you hear more. Thoughts and prayers for family, friends, coworkers and teammates. He was much loved. Ab.

"Which leads me to surmise, that if you don't know how
many IHCs there are, perhaps you aren't familiar with
all the other resources available in R6."

Saski Sam

Where did you get your information? The 1970 MOB guide?

There are 5 FS engines just on the La Grande Ranger District.

Dan

The fire budget process is indeed "interesting". Much of the funding which in the past had been handed down to cover various administrative services (personnel, contracting, procurement etc) has been eliminated. Program funds are now charged to provide these service, ie "user pays". So......if you want to have "someone" process your personnel paperwork (vacancy announcements, selection panels, payroll processing) money comes "off the top" and is sent to ASC.

If your forest wants some new engines or dozers, better pony up the money for the procurement or contracting folks, not to mention the fleet manager (what per cent of fleet are fire vehicles?).

NEPA is required for fuels work. Who's supposed to pay the "'ologists" and foresters for fuels related work? Yup, the fuels program.

There is no "free ride" for fire or any other program.

The "non-fire" folks are often the militia, and all the others whose work supports fire. Without the personnel, contracting, procurement, NEPA, public affairs and others, the job wouldn't get done. It is truly an agency mission to accomplish fire management. It IS NOT solely a "fire program" mission.

Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse that "my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've been there.

OFG (ret)

OR
La Grande IHC - FS
Prineville IHC - FS
Redmond IHC -FS
Rogue River IHC - FS
Union IHC - FS
Winema IHC - FS
Wolf Creek IHC - FS
Zig Zag IHC - FS

Vale IHC - BLM
Warm Springs IHC - BIA

Also the list seems a little light on the index page
at: www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_index.html

Perhaps it hasn't been updated in a year or two.
Seems to me like some of the Regional Hotshot Crews
have made the step to IHCs?

Firepup91

Thanks for the breakdown. That table on fs.fed.us has a hiccup in the parent agency the way my computer reads it. Ab.

Wildfire since Carter, Little Bear, Peace

Sorry about that. I was looking at the ihc list wondering why the numbers didn't add up. "Research" has a call in trying to get some resource numbers. Dispatcher that was recommended is out of the office at meetings until tomorrow. Ab.

Is Warm Springs BIA as per the hotshot crew list? That would still be 10 FS with 8 in OR, 2 in WA. Ab.

Can someone find out how many FS engines there are. R6 is heavily BLM. It would be good to have accurate/ballpark numbers other than "it's not 16". Although, that's good to know too. Ab.

stop putting the spin that fire spending is at the rate of 50% of the
funds that the Forest Service spends.

I think you mis-understand and we're saying the same thing. More than 50% of the FS budget (I heard last year it was 54%) is congressionally appropriated specifically for Fire, Congress had in mind engines or fuel treatments, perhaps. Instead of that, a great deal of that money designated for fire gets tapped by FS District Rangers into paying for non-fire personnel. Someone wrote in that on their CA forest 4 non-fire people were paid for with budget funds mandated by congress for fire. (A great deal of it also got siphoned off the set up the Albuquerque HR Service Center, as well.)

One older'n'dirt forester told me that it used to be the FS was a "Forestry Department doing Fire". Now it's a "Fire Department doing Forestry". I don't know if that's true, but following the money suggests it is and has been for the last 5 or 6 years in many parts of the West. Part of the current struggle the "New Forest Service" is grappling with is how to reposition the agency with respect to its initial core mission and vision, "Protecting the Land and Serving People". To squeeze itself back into being a NR Department doing Fire, it will have to give up huge responsibilities in Fire and huge fire budget monies. If wildland fire leaves the FS, this might be as much as 1/3 of the FS organization and 50% of the FS budget. That's not to say it shouldn't reaffirm its mission/vision, clarify its function and streamline, get its finances in order, modernize accountability, etc, it's just that this is harder and harder to do as "mission creep" into the WUI has occurred.

A recurring and logical question has been, "Why not a National Fire Service?" Well, USDA (USFS) and DOI (BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA) would have to agree, for one thing and mission/vision and standards among so many agencies differ to some degree. In addition, all the money Congress earmarks for Fire would go to that Nat Fire org, and the other fed agencies can't afford to lose it (or control of it). What may be more palatable to the fed agencies is a stove-piped fire organization within the respective agencies like LE & I is within the FS.

The other thing that might happen is that Fire would come under DHS/FEMA. Now that might sound terrible, but maybe Fire could think of it as us infiltrating them with our values, training, attention to detail. There aren't many of them and there are lots of us. Just a thought.

I heard from a friend the other day that, at the National FS level, Fire is characterized as "Fire Thieves" as in fire is "stealing the budget" and that fire's "stealing the budget" has to be corrected. I would say "fire thieves" is an unfair characterization that is trickling down to influence regional attitudes toward firefighters and will influence non-fire FS programs that could influence firefighter safety. What those saying this don't understand is that blaming firefighters for the situation is like blaming the troops for the war in Iraq. OMB is doing it to the FS and to Fire. Firefighters have no more control than the FS Chief. However, characterizing firefighters as "Fire Thieves" does create a climate that is not safe for firefighters trying to do their highly risky jobs.

My two cents...

Ab.

Could you please confirm your number regarding only 16 FS
engines in R6 and the rest being contract? I know in Southern
Oregon we have 2 at Star, 2 in the Butte falls/ prospect area
and a few in Jo. county as well. Now we need to count BLM
too... they have 5 engines in Medford alone and numerous in
Bend, Burns, well all of eastern Oregon has BLM.

Just wondering about the numbers....

Could someone in the "know" in R6 please provide the full numbers for FS (and BLM and NPS) resources or give us a phone number to call and our research team will enquire. Ab.

IG

Intothewind

WFHF = Wildland Fire Hazardous Fuels

New Resources on Federal Taxation Available on IAFC Website

www.iafc.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=722

Some pretty interesting number you dug up there, but I wanted to give mention to all the IA handcrews scattered around R6. I started eight years back on the Leavenworth IA crew which is bordered to the north by Entiat, Chelan, Methow, Tonasket, and Colville (all with IA crews); and to the south with Cle Elum and Naches IA, along with Ellensburg, and Wenatchee DNR handcrews, engines, and helis. I know there are quite a few more (especially in Oregon) but I don't want to gamble at getting all their names right! R6 certainly has the most contract firefighters and support personnel that I know of , but I don't want anyone to forget about the all the great federal IA handcrew resources that get rat-holed every year deep in the heart of good 'ol R6!

-HOG

I haven't written in much, but I was wondering if non-r6 Forest Service firefighters know how few fed fire resources we have in R6. I had to laugh when I read your regional FAM director wasn't communicating with fire staff and forests and that FMOs weren't in on the fire resources & budgeting process. I don't know if ours is. I don't know if our director needs to. I do know that for all of our region's 19 forests we have only 16 engines, 6 shot crews, some rappellers ---- the rest are contract. (And private sector resources are being cut this year one poster said last week.)

We used to have more fed engines and resources. TPTB decided to try a different approach. I think the jury is still out on if it's better or worse. Whenever I hear of a death, I cringe that it could be someone I know --- and we can't afford to lose anyone. We lose too many.

I noticed that the hotlist couldn't get much info on initial attack fires last season compared to other areas. Lack of info is not uncommon.

In our area, if it wasn't for the ODF, we'd really be up a creek. Could this be coming to you?

call me Siski Sam

TPTB = the powers that be

Glad you wrote in Sam. Ab.

With all this talk about Natural Resources related degrees, biologist, etc,
I have a question. Do any of the regional and FAM top managers have to
adhere to the same NR standards? I think Q has a business degree. Seems
to me that anyone who's new in a job should have to send in NR quals. What's
good for the goose is good for the gander..

NorCal Tom

human-factors-annotated-readinglist07.pdf (1,628K pdf file)

NorCal Tom

"the vague principles of the Ten Fire Orders
and other directives show that hard and fast rules are not
appropriate to all fires under all circumstances."

"each mandatory directive provides discretion to
the firefighter. For example, Standing Fire Order Number Seven
holds that a firefighter must "determine safety zones and escape
routes." But the firefighter must use discretion to decide what
constitutes an adequate safety zone based on the surrounding
fuels, topography, weather, fire behavior, availability of other
firefighting resources, time available to prepare the site and
other factors involved in fire fighting discretion. An adequate
safety zone may vary greatly in size depending on these and other
factors. The Orders tend toward vagueness. Standing Fire Order
Number Ten instructs firefighters to "Stay alert, keep calm,
think clearly, act decisively." This is the language of
discretion, not of specific mandatory actions or protocols."

"the Standing Orders and Watchout Situations,
supports the Government's position. These are flexible
principles to be used in fighting fire, an activity that depends
on firefighters' judgment, common sense, and experience."

Hundekot

In the 90's, region 6 had three
type 1 teams. Doug was the IC of one of them and, for my money, ran the
best team of those three by a long ways. His team was always well
organized, efficient, put on-the-ground firefighters first and foremost, was
professional and used uncommon good sense in dealing with the myriad
changing of rules and regs we face every year. His team was always humble,
professional and service oriented towards the firefighters. I understand
he was an engineer in his day job and rose through the ranks on the
logistics side. There was no doubt in my mind however that he was a
LEADER, and his influence was very evident in how well his team performed
at every level and staff area.

By the way, in my opinion, the other two type 1 teams had
"Fire Guys" as ICs and were stumbling, barely competent, arrogant groups
(not teams), reflective of the IC's influence. A LEADER IS A LEADER IS A
LEADER; the leadership qualities that people choose for their behaviors are
not the special domain of the fire units. It is important that we find,
recognize, train and promote good leaders wherever we can find them. God
knows, we are certainly in dire need of as many good ones as we can find.

To Doug and anyone that knows him - Thank you. You did the job right.

Grumpy old hotshot supt.

Thanks for the input, Supt, glad you've got Doug's back. I don't think the poster who named him meant to disparage Doug; he has said nice things in the past. This is likely one of those situations where we don't have tone of voice, expressions, gestures or other body language to interpret the nuance of the message. Supt, I did put your testimony to Doug on the Excellent Leaders page. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was some time ago when we began to examine in earnest the issue of
retention in our fire management workforce. And I know many of you are
hanging on – hoping for some news – any news. While I can assure you there
has been substantial movement, the information we've been able to release
is negligible to some and not enough for others. I have been asked “why
the big secret?” There is no secret; just a multi-step course of action
that will eventually lead to tangible results that will be shared with you
as soon as we can.

Deputy Regional Forester, Jim Peña laid out his understanding of the plan
in an e-mail message of 12/15/07, and Regional Forester, Randy Moore
provided further information on the proposed timeline for taking the issue
forward and his areas of emphasis in his message of 1/14/08. I realize that
even those nuggets of information may not be enough to ease the anxiety or
to satisfy your need for more. If the issue were simple and the solutions
within our grasp, it would have been solved long ago. There were a lot of
smart people in that room in December, each fully aware of the challenges
presented by this issue and their responsibilities to represent you. I
believe that work will bear fruit.

Today, Randy Moore, Jim Pena, myself and others discussed the issues and
our proposal with the Washington Office, including the Deputy Chief for
State and Private Forestry. We were able to provide a fairly clear picture
of the challenge and its implications beyond Region 5. This issue is not
isolated to California, nor is it simply about pay... it is about the
ability of this agency to meet its mission in a rapidly changing
environment. That is a sobering fact that requires careful deliberation.

Next week we have the opportunity to discuss this with the Chief, and to
present proposal(s) that are rooted in the good work done in December.
Clearly the nuts and bolts of the proposal cannot be shared before the
Chief has an opportunity to consider it and decide a course of action. At
any rate, the agency must respond "with a proposal to increase recruitment
and retention for Southern California forests no later than February 1,
2008." as required in the 2008 Omnibus Spending Bill.

In the meantime, we have used this time wisely, refining the issues and the
options, validating the statistics and preparing for the questions that may
arise. I can only offer one small consolation at this time; I will provide
you a weekly update via your Forest Fire Chief during our weekly conference
call, even if it’s just “nothing new to report.” Based on the number of
inquires, I know that many of you are faced with difficult career choices
and that you want/need enough information to make informed decisions. While
I cannot assure you that the answer will come in time, or that it will help
you with your decision, I can assure you that your concerns are heard.

Respectfully...

-ed-

Ab,

I would say management is finally getting connected with High Reliability
Organizations and Human Factors research.

There's no way the 10 Fire Orders are specific enough to be hard and
fast "rules". Guidelines for engagement and disengagement of fire is a
good way to describe them, in my opinion. They're tools we should keep
close to us...

No doubt they will continue to be taught and will continue to be adhered
to to the best of our ability.

Thank you Randy Moore.

Strider

Nevada Firefighter

This has been posted two times beginning around 15 January; thanks for your comment. Ab.

Interesting note from Randy Moore (Regional Forester, R5) which says that
the 10 Fire Orders are guidelines and are not hard and fast.

Didn't we all learn that the Fire Orders were not bent or broken? I
understand the 18 Watchouts are just that, "Watchouts."

Where is this train of thought heading? Is management disconnected with
years of safe practice in both fire training and fire operations?

Respectfully submitted,
USFS FEO

FS letter regarding OSHA Esperanza settlement agreement (55 K doc file)

OSHA informal Esperanza settlement agreement (167 K pdf file)

South Africa:
Devastating forest fires 'worst ever'
www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080127093506915C583203

The raging fires that in recent weeks devastated vast swathes of the country's plantations and forests have been called "forestry's own 9/11".

Sawmillers, land owners and lumber analysts say that the fires, which destroyed timber plantations in parts of the Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and, most notably, areas around Sabie and Graskop, the main timber-growing areas of Mpumalanga, were the worst conflagrations in the industry's history - "and the fire season is not over yet".

"Over the past 25 years, we have lost an average of 14 000ha of trees a year to fires," said Lance Cooper, of Nelspruit's York Timbers. "This year we have lost 84 000ha. It's been catastrophic for both forestry - we lost 20-year-old trees - and for the sawmilling industry." (more at the link...)

Fire to Cause Changes at USFS
www.sbsun.com/news/ci_8082918
January 26, 2008
Written by Stacia Glenn

California - The U.S. Forest Service has committed itself to correcting a handful of violations federal safety investigators say played an instrumental role in the deaths of five firefighters in the Esperanza Fire. An informal settlement agreement with the Occupational Safety and Health Administration was reached Friday. Officials with both agencies took eight months to hammer out the three-page agreement.

"More than anything, we're continuing to re-emphasize the current checks we already have in place and renew our call to our employees that the safety checks are there for a reason," said Forest Service spokesman Jason Kirchner.

The Oct. 26, 2006, blaze burned over the five-man crew of Engine 57, killing 44-year-old Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser of Idyllwild and firefighters Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley; Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Jason McKay, 27, of Phelan; and Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto.

An OSHA investigation concluded in July that six safety violations were made before the firefighters died while protecting an unoccupied home in Twin Pines.

The following are changes expected to be in place by March 31 to correct the violations:

Fire officials will "emphasize the importance of timely weather information," according to the report.

On the first morning of the Esperanza Fire, crews were not briefed on the fire's status, Santa Ana wind conditions or danger areas before going to fight the blaze.

The Forest Service will review risk-management policies to ensure firefighters are equipped to make rapid decisions in risky situations.

The Engine 57 crew did not follow a commander's orders to move to a safer area, although it is not known whether the instructions were poorly communicated or misunderstood by firefighters.

Maps showing high-risk locations will be distributed.

Esperanza firefighters did not have maps of the area where they were battling the blaze.

Forest Service officials also plan to incorporate lessons from the Esperanza Fire in the agency's Serious Accident Investigation procedures and to re-emphasize the "importance of risk management and the priority of life over structure protection," according to the report.

OSHA officials could not be reached for comment Friday.

Fair Use Disclaimer

TEXAS EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS
RELAYED BY NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AMARILLO TX
320 PM CST SUN JAN 27 2008

THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS TRANSMITTED AT THE REQUEST OF THE TEXAS
EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS.

BEAVER COUNTY EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OFFICIALS HAVE REQUESTED A FIRE
WARNING FOR EASTERN BEAVER COUNTY. A LARGE FIRE LOCATED TO THE
NORTHEAST OF SLAPOUT IS SPREADING QUICKLY DUE TO STRONG WINDS AND
VERY DRY CONDITIONS. CITIZENS FROM ONE MILE NORTH AND EAST OF SLAPOUT
TO THE HARPER COUNTY LINE ARE REQUESTED TO EVACUATE THE AREA
IMMEDIATELY

As we say up north... Uffda!

SAS

I've been educated by the back and forth dialog here. I can see when and where collar brass would be important and when it would be unnecessary. I now know who has permission to wear it and who doesn't. Thanks TC for the regs. I can see why some in the federal agencies might not want their firefighters to wear it. I can see regional, remote FS vs WUI FS differences, generational differences and agency differences. I don't think that anyone has been complaining, just engaging in lively dialog. Where's the beef? Start a new meaningful thread you're interested in if you like. Grab a bottle of your favorite libation and feel free to join us... peace... out... Ab.

Condolences. Ab.

If you post this, you can sign me as "LTL" (Long-time lurker).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here’s the full text of the announcement:

2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort
A campaign of the McCormick Tribune Foundation
Sponsored by American Express and the Los Angeles Times

Garth Brooks responded personally to the devastating fires in Southern California by pledging more than $3 million in proceeds from five sold-out concerts in Los Angeles in January 2008, to the McCormick Tribune Foundation's "2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort." The Foundation has already provided $1 million in matching funds for the first $2 million that was raised from concert ticket sales.

The McCormick Tribune Foundation has recently made available another $500,000 to be used to match additional contributions at 50 cents on the dollar, up to the next $1 million raised. Corporate sponsors contributing to this effort include the Los Angeles Times, American Express, Ticketmaster and AEG.

All of the funds raised, plus the match, will go to nonprofit agencies providing aid to fire victims and first responders, and their families, and will also support southern California fire departments and organizations in need of additional or replacement fire fighting equipment.

The concerts are sold out, but your support is still needed. We can't undo the damage caused by the fires, but we can help our neighbors get back on their feet, and be ready for the next time.

Please join Garth Brooks in this extraordinary effort, and give what you can today.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Firefighter companies protest Oregon contract cuts
AP wire

SALEM, Ore. (AP) -- A group of private wildland firefighting companies are protesting because their contracts were not renewed this year by Oregon Department of Forestry.

Dillon Sanders, owner of Inbound, one of the companies affected, said the decision is unnecessarily restrictive.

State forestry officials say 98 crews have received extended contracts for the 2008 season, which did not include Sanders' company and about 30 others.

Forestry Department spokesman Rod Nichols said the number of crews selected is based on the projected fire season.

In 2007, 132 crews were awarded state contracts.

Nichols said companies whose bids were turned down submitted estimates that exceeded the cap of $45 per man hour.

In 2007, the cost of private firefighting crews was an estimated $55.5 million, paid for by agencies that include Department of Forestry, U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.

Oregon-based crews often are sent to several states.

Sanders and others said $45 per hour is too low to meet rising firefighting costs, such as the cost of gas, new equipment and training.

..Staying green until retirement

Fair Use Disclaimer

Do you think that means that R5 will be in pretty good shape but some in the other regions will be hurting with the new transcript deadlines?

I posted when the OPM policy came out that had the deadline of late Dec 07 that instead of a month to work things out for people (regional groups) seeking transcripts that it really was only a week because of university break dates. Many fire people were also in "use or lose". To me this really seems unfair. It's almost as though they (PPM and the FS) set the scene for failure of individuals and groups trying to work out the new changing target.

I have heard from friends in regions other than R5 that some highly qualified and experienced fire managers have only been picked up into the 401 series on a random basis, depending on their own limited knowledge and their forest ranger. From what they've said, most regions don't have the R5 BOD capability and didn't approach this in a standardized way. I'd like to hear if people are having trouble understanding the whole IFPM and FS PM and TFM and series 401 rules and current OPM etc rules with changing dates, especially those from other regions than R5 who have been developing a career in fire. This changing process has been going on for a number of years.

Maybe I could get together a page or two of the history of the process and the current requirements and dates. I do have some of it written down somewhere. Jeanne P-T still seems to be R5's BOD member and point person on all of this. I'd be willing to contact her and see what I can find out to share.

Mellie

Here are several links to info on IFPM/FS FPM:
2007/r5-ifpm-answers.htm (this is now resolved)
r5-ifpm-vs-fs_fpm-positions (late Fall, 2007)
www.ifpm.nifc.gov/ifpmstandard.htm (current)

I have some questions.

• Do CDF BCs have qualification requirements prior to entering the position? Example; do they need to be DIVS, ICT3, ICT4 or a Strike Team Ldr prior to getting the position?
• Does CDF have BCs out there that respond to and manage emergencies without a DIVS or ICT3, ITC4 qualification?
• Do your BCs and Capt in the ECCs and other positions on the unit have or are required to maintain ICS qualifications? Would I be correct in saying that most have the qualifications, however some may not?
• Do you have non-ICS qualification requirements or non-NWCG training required to be a CDF BC, such as a Chief Officer school? Thanks.
• I'd also like to learn how these questions apply to the DC and Capt positions?

This should be interpreted as a positive post, not trying to make a point, just trying to learn.

Thoughts about IFPM-FS-FPM -

The smartest thing JPT could do in her upcoming briefing is to relay that those in 10/09 IFPM positions better be ready to meet the requirements or be ready to move out of those positions. I've heard the agency is planning right now to play tough on the 10/09 cutoff and for those who think they won't be kicked out of positions, better think again. I'm sure chances are still high the deadline could be extended, however I wouldn't bet on it. I'd like to hear what others think about the deadline; Will it be extended or will employees be removed?

ms

National direction on implementation of IFPM also dictates that fire program leaders must have significant fire experience and credentials. That too is being circumvented.

Chief,
Why?

OFG (ret)

In R-5 the federal fire agencies utilize and gladly dispatch CALFIRE
crews as type 1 on federal I/A fires and are more than accepting to use
them when ALL of the local shot crews are in other states. Let's leave
this one alone.

Firedog

Normbc9

When I enhanced and sized the photo for posting, I cut off the date at the bottom:   APR · 56  ·
Ab.

The dialogue around fire suppression and fire preparedness, how we pay for it and how we plan for it, continues. There are some who see clearly the effect on all our programs and we are engaged in much discussion. We will continue to monitor and adjust how we suppress fires and their costs. We will continue to examine fire behavior and predictive models. Research will help us look forward to future needs and opportunities. Our partners are key.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

To help understand my point, how would federal workers feel, if all of
CalFire engineers said they were AFMOs? or that CalFire Captains
were automatically equal to FMOs?

yes, I know the positions are a few levels apart, but could you appreciate
it if all of CalFire FAEs suddenly became "AFMO" qualified? Including
our LT (Limited Term) FAEs?

I'm guessing it would be a lot like how all the Interagency Hotshot Crews feel since
CalFire insists on calling all of their inmate crews Type 1.

easy

I understand things are still not clear but I know IFPM questions have come up here over the years. As I recall, you have to have college credit for TFM to count. Have you tried doing a search using the search button at the top of the page? I just did using IFPM and TFM and came up with

October 13, 2007 memo: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/ifpm-answers.htm

Information from 9/19 theysaid from Jeanne P-T www.wildlandfire.com/arc/2007i_sep.htm

There are some other links going back to 2003, 2004, 2005..

Jeanne is on the agenda for the R5 Chief's meeting end of Feb. She'd know the answer to you question.

Mellie

The interpretation of the IFPM 401 series seems to be changing on a daily
basis!!!! Does anyone know if a Technical Fire Management (TFM) graduate
with a certificate will qualify in the 401 series (IFPM or FS PM)? Or are
more credits needed?

JW

George Weldon is a well known straight-talker: Northern Rockies, R1
former Missoula SJ...
Our Trial By Fire

So these are two that stuck out to me.

This is my opinion, and I would hope folks would leave it at that and not get into finding fault. These are folks I dealt with at different times in my career that impressed me.

the cynic

Thanks for your opinions, cynic. Anyone else with names of people they admired as leaders and why? I started a page here: USFS, Good Fire Leader I have Known. Please let us know who tops your list. Ab.

I gotta admit, knowing what you're getting during initial attack with minimal
radio traffic does offer an argument for collar brass. That said, don't most
folks know each other fairly well in their local areas?

Thanks too for those who recall the when fire was a top priority for most in
the Forest Service ...

Still Out There ....

STUMPIE

I was constantly asked, while standing behind the Controllers, to convey their (atc's) thanks to our pilots for that very same professionalism and the precision with which they handled their communication(s) and flew their aircraft. Guidelines exist and ATC instructions are given, but it is up to each pilot to comply. However, fire aircraft were only a small fraction of the aircraft utilizing the airspace at any given time. The density was much higher than one might expect. Within that density, the quality of pilots varied dramatically.

I submit; the same holds true on our nations roads. Including, the highly professional nature of our folks behind the wheel. Traffic laws exist and operational guidelines are developed, (I seem to remember drivers education eons ago - 1 car length for every 10 mph, as an example...) but again, it is up to each driver to comply.

Communication and Transportation are essential to incident response. I think we all agree on that. I just don't believe they need to be separated.

Respectfully,
student of flight

Ab,

If I may chime in on the wearing of collar brass by federal government (BLM, USFS, NPS, etc) from a CAL FIRE perspective.

First of all, to those of you who truly earned the wearing of the brass, I fully support it. Yes, it does help either thru a red helmet, two bugles, or the "captain" radio identifier to know who is in charge of the crew.

But, as "TC" and "out there as an AD" have mentioned, the wearing of collar brass has gotten so rampant, that at least speaking for myself, I sometimes question the wearer's qualifications. In CAL FIRE you cannot wear a bugle, or a pair of bugles unless the department promotes, and trains you into the position, and has INDIVIDUALLY authorized you to wear them. This prevents anyone and everyone from just putting collar brass on their uniforms.

And like "TC" mentioned, I've met patrol technicians in their FIRST year of fire and federal service wearing 2 bugles on their uniforms. Like wise, I've met dispatchers from the USFS wearing the ranks of Captain that have NEVER seen a fire in person

I support the wearing of collar brass by Forest Service and other Federal personnel, BUT, there has to be standards.

From what I've been reading here on They Said, forest service employees are having a hard time getting support from the higher ups as it is, but if I may gently add my view to those who DESERVE the collar brass, perhaps, they will help control who wears the collar brass and who doesn't.

To help understand my point, how would federal workers feel, if all of CAL FIRE engineers said they were AFMOs? or that CAL FIRE Captains were automatically equal to FMOs?

yes, I know the positions are a few levels apart, but could you appreciate it if all of CAL FIRE FAEs suddenly became "AFMO" qualified? Including our LT (Limited Term) FAEs?

What I suggest is a more FOCUSED group of QUALIFIED personnel wears the collar brass. What constitutes qualified should be determined by your agencies and internally enforced.

Now I'll stand up right now, and say that I'm sure there are a few CAL FIRE personnel out there, that many FED'S shake their heads at and wonder how in the hell that person got their bugles, but I can say that our department does have a training and qualification system that the individual must have passed/completed to have earned the bugles. Sure all agencies have their bumbling idiots, God help us!!, but I guess what I'm getting at is that the FEDERAL agencies must come up with standards for who wears the collar brass to be equally respected by all other departments

Anyways, to those of you in the true supervisory positions and deserve the collar brass of Engineer, Fire Captain, Battalion Chief, or above I support you. But, you must police your own personnel, to help protect the respect your positons dictate. Not to say that Patrol Technicians nor dispatchers can't be qualified to wear the collar brass, but rather that the position they are in does not necessarily qualify them to be recognized in the same standards.

I've tried to be as politically correct as possible, and I hope that I haven't personally offended anyone. Just trying to give an "outsider's" view of federal collar brass wearing....

Now, if I may add some humor to the collar brass adding on what Gordon had posted.....A long time ago, I was told this.

First of all they are NOT bugles, they are vision performance devices...

Firefighters have such clear and unaffected vision that they don't need any. (The true leaders of our service...)

An Engineer's eyesight is getting so bad that they need a telescope to properly see what is happening

Captains have such bad vision they need BINOCULARS to see clearly,

And of course once you get to Battalion Chief or above, your eyesight and your vision assisting devices are so crooked and crossed that you can't even see what the hell you are talking about.

Sign me...

CDF Fire Captain

www.villagebooks-mtshasta.com/forserhum.html

Mellie

From Ag Learn. A new course in Ag Learn on how to Overcome Overload. Who
would of thought all we needed was one Ag Learn class to teach us how to deal
with overload.

The best way to get rid of overload is to get rid of Ag Learn. Oh the irony of it all !

Only in the Forest Service........... Absolutely Classic !

ms

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letterman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: January 23, 2008
Subject: Delay in Migration of Region 5 Human Resources to the Albuquerque Service Center
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors

The February 4, 2008, Human Resources (HR) migration date for Region 5 has been cancelled due to continuing unresolved EmpowHR system issues and the need for organization and process adjustments at the Albuquerque Service Center (ASC). Effective March 16, 2008, some Region 5 HR functions as listed below will migrate to ASC. However, the new migration date does not include the majority of the mission-critical HR functions, and adds additional HR services to the Region 5 program. The purpose of this delayed migration plan is to guarantee that basic HR services will continue in Region 5 and until such time the ASC issues are resolved. Following are National and Regional decisions concerning the Region 5 migration:

1. Region 5 HR center in Vallejo, California, will continue for up to two years from February 4, 2008. In order to meet minimum service levels and assume expanded work assignments, it will be necessary to augment the current Region 5 HR staff. HR positions will be filled (most virtually) utilizing a variety of avenues, e.g., temporary or term employees, current or former HR employees from previously migrated units, and additional contractors. Carmen Funston will remain the HR Director until such time as most services have shifted to ASC.

2. Use of the Region 5 SF-52 Tracker for Region 5 work will continue.

3. Until migrated to ASC, continue to operate a Region 5 HR center to provide the following intra-regional services:
· Performance management program
· Standard classification
· Staffing and employment
· Processing, including awards
· Benefits, all except OWCP
· Pay and leave administration
· Paycheck 7 administration (until Paycheck 8 or USDA alternative deployed)

Note: Some functions may be migrated to the ASC-HR Operations staff prior to the two-year expiration. This will occur when ASC is ready to assume these responsibilities, and the two-year employment commitment for HR staff will not be negatively affected.

4. The following non-EmpowHR-related HR programs will migrate to ASC effective March 16, 2008:
· Workers’ Compensation.
· Employee Development (Training Program).
· Organization management and classification appeals (standard classification using AVUE and/or use of Agency standard position descriptions continues in Region 5 as part of the integrated staffing and classification work within the AVUE program).
· Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12 will transfer; however, the on-boarding forms/process will continue in Region 5 to begin that process.

5. Region 5 will lead the national temporary employment program and will provide services in conjunction with ASC-HR Operations. Joy Thomas, Region 5 Employment Center Manager, is the program lead. This is a joint effort between Region 5 and ASC-HR Operations, requiring close coordination. Operational guidelines are being developed.

6. Region 5 will lead the national permanent Fire hire for open-continuous Fire announcements, GS-09 and below, in conjunction with ASC-HR Operations. Joy Thomas, Region 5 Employment Center Manager, is the lead. This is a joint effort between Region 5 and ASC-HR Operations, requiring close coordination. Operational guidelines are being developed. Active participation by the Fire organization in this effort is critical.

We do recognize that this decision has had a personal impact on some HR and non-HR employees who were approved for a buyout and/or early out, or HR employees who were to assume other positions in the organization, and managers who were expecting to fill vacant positions with affected HR employees. The Regional Forester Team will meet to caucus and develop Regional guidelines/protocol to address these issues. Further information will follow in a separate communication.

We do understand the impacts of this decision, but it was necessary in order to ensure continuity of HR services. The two-year delay in Region 5 migration and augmentation of HR staff will provide stability and relief to current Region 5 HR employees.

Thank you all for your continued support.

/s/ Beth G. Pendleton (for)
RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester

cc: Vicki Jackson, Kathy Burgers, Ronald Banegas, pdl r5 hrr5, pdl r5 district rangers, Dan Duefrene

Forest Service Humor Book BANNED

Directive from the Regional Forester on "Forest Service Humor - More than 300 True Stories"
Above message went out from the R5 RO to Forest Supervisors and Directors on Nov 30, 2007

If you haven't already, you must read this directive so you know what to avoid... Wouldn't want anyone to get assigned extra POSH training. Ab.

Messages on the circulating email include

Did you see this...

My take; its official. Humor has been removed from the FS.
Now stop laughing...dam*it

another:

It's with great sadness, I must inform you that you can no longer send me
anything that has humorous connotations, might make me laugh, smile or make
the workplace enjoyable. My sincerest apologies for ever sending you
anything of this nature.

Bah humbug and I hope your new years sucks...

another:

This is very serious, not to be taking lightly!

another:

Well, where can I get one?

Just for jollies - and we can't take ourselves too seriously - I found it on Amazon for those interested.
Kinda pricy for a paperback. Looks like it's out of print, but there are at least 5 used copies here:

Forest Service Humor: More Than 300 True Stories (Paperback)

Although using a cell phone while operating a vehicle is a new law for
California it is prohibited item per our Health and Safety Code book
already.

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php?/blog/issue-chp/blog-new-cell-phone-law/

6709.11 - Health and Safety Code Handbook

Do not compromise your safety, the safety of your passengers, or public
safety when driving. The following are prohibited:

a. Engaging in distracting conversation or activities.
b. Eating or drinking.
c. Using a two-way radio.
d. Using a hand-held cellular telephone.
e. Using radio/stereo headphones.
f. Taking prescription drugs that may cause dizziness or lack
of concentration or reduce response time.
g. Reading maps, instructions, or other material.
h. Transporting pets. Transporting pets in Government vehicles
generally is not allowed. Transporting pets shall be addressed
on a case-by-case basis and documented in the job hazard
analysis.

If your boss is screeewed, you should get him or her a headset next birthday. Ab.

Briefing Paper on collar brass (404 k doc file)

collar brass.doc (41 k doc file)

TC, I found the files and post you sent in last 7/15/07. Let's remember I'm putting this on the hotlist under collar brass guidelines.

Seems every year I make it to at least one big fire in R5. Last year I was there for 28 days with the rest of my fire time being in Idaho. I have yet to learn what the different number of bugles mean (bet someone tells me). I clearly see the advantage on the home unit where it helps integrate state and feds where brass is used. In my position, I need to know who a person is and what their assignment on the fire is. If having brass on is important, no one has said anything about it and all the fires I’ve worked on didn’t seem to suffer from it. I just haven’t seen the benefit in an ICS environment unless it was just to get someone’s nose out of joint. But what do I know… I started on the Sequoia NF, Cannel Meadow (now the Kern River RD) Helitack crew in 1974. We had a lot of brass back then! The point is, no one should be relying on brass to be relevant in an ICS managed event. Too many people like me that aren’t used to paying any attention to it, but still carry out important functions. Don’t as*_u_me!

Thanks,

Witness Tree

Hopefully someday the line officers and other folks who make decisions will recognize the "fire and cop" shops are what is funding the Agency nowadays. The Forest Service is no longer multiple use / sustainable yield and the fire and fuels funding will no longer support a failed agency built upon the agricultural commodity of timber production, harvest, and protection.

From my perspective, I must disagree: in my world (and I believe in most of the Western States), the National Forest lands managed by the USFS are still in the multiple use mode, in spite of reduced timber harvest levels. There are still 10's of millions on Americans who use National Forest lands for hiking, biking, hunting and fishing, cutting Christmas trees, ATV and snowmobile riding, camping, horseback riding, and experiencing the Wilderness; there are hundreds of thousands of cattle and sheep that graze on these NF lands; there are miners extracting minerals; there are hundreds if not thousands of American communities dependent on National Forest lands for their watersheds; and there are hundreds of wildlife species that are dependent on these National Forest lands for summer, fall and winter range.

The National Forest lands managed by the USFS are not just a place where we should "put out fires and arrest the bad guys"; if a National Forest has become nothing more than that, as noname22 alleges, maybe the Administration and Congress should seriously consider turning the Fire and LE duties on those specific National Forests over to the local county/State units, and put the funding and personnel into the remainder of the National Forest lands where multiple use IS still the norm, and needs balanced and talented natural resource management skills?

But, this is just one person's perspective. Our Congress needs to hear all of our views (and some quantifiable facts too!) about how we would like OUR National Forest lands managed, what is working, and what is not!

Hundekot

Seems there are 2 camps.

• Those that adhere to and uphold policy
• and those that believe the ends justify the means....

Desk Jockey

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WO AMENDMENT 6509.11k-2007-8
6509.11k_40  | Page 94 of 109
EFFECTIVE DATE: 12/13/2007
DURATION: This amendment is effective until superseded or removed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FSH 6509.11k - service-wide finance and accounting handbook
Chapter 40 - payments
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

48.26g - Other Insignia and Commemorative Pins

Optional commemorative pins and other insignia currently approved by the
Chief may be worn with the uniform.

1. Individuals have the option to wear a length-of-service pin,
honor award pin, volunteer pin, union logo pin, or an American flag
pin (which shall be worn on the left side, over the heart) on the
uniform. Attach such a pin on the right lapel or collar or centered
just above or below the nameplate. Pins should be 1-inch
diameter/square or less.

2. Approved Forest Service commemorative pins may be worn with the
uniform on the right lapel or collar or centered just above or just
below the nameplate. Approved commemorative pins are usually worn
for a limited period. A letter from the Chief shall be issued when
new pins are approved.

3. Do not wear local fundraising campaign pins, local area emblems,
National Ski Patrol emblems, or any other insignia not listed in
preceding paragraphs 1 and 2 and in sections 48.26a-48.26f.

The last several days there have been numerous differing posts as to collar brass, clear text, hard hat colors, and ICS. The sad thing is that each poster is correct FOR THEIR area. I had a little bit of experience on wildland fires in several different geographic areas over the years and each area has their own unique flavor and political interactions.

Collar brass has its place in the fire service and the FS. It is a part of the fire service and has been since 1910, regardless of what the detractors have to say. When collar brass was implemented on the ANF, a person named Tom Harbour was the Forest FMO, and it was implemented an effort to strengthen and clarify relations with the fire departments we worked with in LA County and to allow the Red Truck folks to relate to the Green Truck folks during meetings and Initial Attack on fires. In areas where the organizations are dynamic and new faces appear every day, it is important to quickly identify key players. Collar brass helps to do that, as does Hardhat/Helmet color. Neither is a total replacement for knowing your cooperators.

The Head gear color issue came out of the original FIRESCOPE activity due to confusion on the fire ground during the 1970 fire season.

Some firefighters need to wake up to the fact that SOME fire departments qualify their people based on Administrative Rank, NOT SKILLS AND EXPERIENCE, and they respect color of the badge or the number of plungers on the collar. Again its a local thing.

As for wearing collar brass on large incidents, again it's determined on a case by case basis. I went to a few fires as an ICT1 and there were times when it was appropriate when dealing with the Public, Law enforcement and cooperators; other times it was left in the travel bag.

As for the "clear text" issue, there are a lot of newer managers who throw that up to deflect the radio call sign and position descriptor. Great argument except "clear text" was again a product of the FIRESCOPE efforts to eliminate 10- codes 9- codes etc as they were not the same, led to greater confusion in an interagency setting, and often varied between forests.

The practice of using an individual's name on the radio is all well and good if it is a small unit and you only have one employee by the name of "Smith"; otherwise it's confusing.

When on a large incident do we not use position descriptors on the radio. . . ie Division K, Operations, Branch 2 etc.? YES, because of name confusion.

A lot of folks have spent a lot of time working to improve life and conditions in their geographic area. That has been going on for many decades and progress is slow. Making changes in the Green Machine, as in any large organization, is like turning an Aircraft Carrier... slow and deliberate. Many of today's new Managers do not know, understand or appreciate the energetic, skilled, knowledgeable workforce that makes up the fire program. Do your best to educate them and improve their Situational Awareness when it comes to the fire program.

Hutch

Thanks for the perspective, Hutch. Ab.

Older'n'dirt? Ab.

Message went out electronically yesterday at 1504.

noname 3

Chain-of-command is exactly why collar brass is a BAD idea on incidents. What matters is the role that someone is filling on that particular incident -- he or she has met national standards say he/she can fill that job. I have seen confusion arise when someone follows the directions of "higher brass" from his own particular fire department rather than the incident command structure. (This included an individual who was "demobbed" by someone from his own department on the incident -- no one knew where he was. This is a SAFETY issue!)

What's more, a battalion chief in one department or agency does not necessarily have the same experience and background as someone with the same "brass" from another place. I have known people who wear BC brass who are qualified under the ICS system as a Type 1 incident commander and I've known others who were Type 2 and even Type 3s -- major differences in ability and experience! I do agree that we need something that better IDs people on incidents -- teams usually do a pretty good job for their own folks, but others can be hard to distinguish.

As a history lesson, the ICS system helped to make sure that Forest Service folks were qualified for the positions they fill on incidents. Used to be, to become a district ranger or forest supervisor, you had to be qualified as a fire boss for increasing sizes of fires. If you were a golden boy on the rise (sorry that's what it was in those days) you'd get that ranking whether you were qualified or not. There was a multiple-fatality fire in California in the 50s or 60s where a district ranger made a bone-headed command and got folks in trouble. I'm not saying that can't happen today, but the ICS system along with the NWCG training standards has gone far in creating more standard qualifications.

Still Out There as an AD

"If I were there, I’d tell everyone just how important this emergency
management function is to our Nation and to our Chief. I’d remind them to
apply risk management principles to all they do before, during, and after
an emergency. I’d tell them to carefully scrutinize their spending and to
make sure they feel proud of every dollar they spend. I’d remind them that
as emergency managers we work for line officers who set direction for us.
I’d talk about the importance of the connection they need to establish with
those local and geographic area administrators and the responsibility we
must take to reach out to those agency administrators. I’d talk about the
niche we fill in wildland fire between those dedicated emergency managers
in the structural fire services and foresters/biologists focused solely on
land management. Finally, after I went through some of those points, I’d
remind everyone of the trust we’ve been given. Mothers and Fathers entrust
their sons and daughters to us. The public entrusts their land to us.
Taxpayers entrust expenditure of hard earned dollars to us. We must always
remember and redeem that trust."

#1 our job is hard enough, why run around and waste precious time on any type of incident to try and figure out who the key players are?

#2 Believe it or not TRADITION in the fire service (like it or not) utilizes little things like collar brass, formal designators and chain of command.

#3 Believe it or not, most of us have no problem addressing our supervisors or subordinates by rank not job description. I don't address any of my chiefs as "hey guy or gal that signs my paycheck or dude that makes all the hard decisions on fires" It's chief (blank), what is our assignment? And believe it or not, without collar brass, we are cheating the chain of command. Regardless of agency, we need designators such as collar brass to decipher who we are talking to sometimes. If nothing else, it's a safety issue. Rank matters on any incident, even if that means we have $5.00 jewelry on our collars. I for one laugh hysterically at the folks that want to use anything else. I personally think that these folks that nay-say the chain of command will nay-say anything that might make their agency "APPEAR" to have "FIREFIGHTERS". He*l, if we start calling our GS-0462-7 SUPERVISORY FORESTRY TECHNICIANS "ENGINEERS" WE MIGHT HAVE TO START PAYING THEM AS SUCH. I think that this is the true issue as WEAK as it sounds. I work for a tiny fire department in northern California. My title? "Engineer" I have a badge, a name tag, a patch on my left arm and believe it or not, single bugles on each side of my collar. I drive the engine and, in lieu of my captain being absent or busy, I make decisions for my engine company on any incident. Our brother and sisters from all other departments know this and act accordingly. It works pretty spiffy and there are no questions or inflated/deflated egos when our job is done.

#4 Whomever started this thread, THANK-you. It has given all of us a chance to expose those that want to live in the past and not move towards a safer "Fire service". I hope that those who are under such a archaic regime hopefully can move on to other places, assignments or jobs that embrace tradition, safety and the chain of command. I feel for my brothers and sisters that are going through these hard times and hope that all of you will come over and work with people that support you. We welcome all of you with open arms. I for one know who you are and what you do ( as I worked for 14 seasons USFS). You are the highest trained, best bunch of "Real FIREFIGHTERS" I know.

Have a great day everyone. I expect to get hammered for my opinion, that's ok, its just my opinion.

Driver51

I noticed that site the other day. Thanks for bringing it to the community's attention. Ab.

Which regional fire directors are not communicating with their Forests?  Seems like a statement like that should at least name the regions involved.

If there are no fire folks qualified to fill in behind our fire professionals who retire whose fault is that?  Are we going to lay that off on some Forest Supervisor?  If there are not qualified fire folks ready to step up to the plate there is something wrong with that picture and fire folks better start looking in a mirror.

Enjoyed that, you need to do that more often!

the cynic

My comments are not limited to R5, except in the case of CWCG being "in charge of" IMTs in R5. I have no idea how other regions' IMT appointments and communications are going under the auspices of their Regional Wildfire Coordinating Groups.

cynic, Feel free to start a thread listing by name the great and even good Regional Fire LEADERS and why you think yours is exceptional or good. What are leadership qualities they demonstrate? I would like to hear from firefighters who trust the fire person in their region who is in the position of authority and potentially in a position of leadership. It would be great to acknowledge them. What qualities does that person possess that makes them more than simply an authority drawing a paycheck? I am not talking about forest supervisors or regional foresters. I'm talking about your fire boss. Ab.

That's all fine and dandy. Just don't be surprised should you show up in SoCal and I ask you to clean the crappers. (tongue firmly in cheek)

In all seriousness, I had this discussion with a Forest Service buddy of mine a few years ago. He related the story of when he was a new BC and went to a fire in the interface. An engine captain from a large SoCal FD told our newly minted BC just where he could stick his directions. So, the BC went to his car, opened the box, put on his shiny new white helmet and repeated his directions. This time the Capt. complied.

The point is that as several have pointed out, collar brass, helmet color and titles are universal to the fire service. They are "clear text" in the fire world. Whether it's a large interface fire or a hurricane, we all need to play together in the sandbox.

Fish

Ab... "kicking the tires"

Readers,

The United States Forest Service is currently intent on saving itself. Fire makes up more than 50% of the FS budget and that threatens the agency. (OMB and others must realize that fire is most of what the FS does today.) If you're the agency, how do you reduce that so fire is just another "little" program under resource management?

There's a serious communication gap between upper management and the ground. Who is leading FIRE?

There's a lack of understanding concerning

• the role of the FS in the WUI; with rumors that the FS isn't going to participate there, and if it does, it's not going to pay
• the new role of CWCG with IMTs is undefined
• regional fire directors not communicating effectively with forests

First, on Fighting Fire in the WUI:
From what I hear, the FS is redefining the role of FIRE in the WUI, including who pays for it, and how. Recently, the Forest Service WO put out two documents -- the Strategic Plan and the "Regional Transformation" Plan -- at least in draft form.

The Communication plan section of the Regional Plan is heavy into primary FS goals:

* getting fire back into fire in the ecosystem as a resource management tool only
* clarifying the WUI stuff, including who pays
* tiered to the USDA's strategic plan of action and to the PART (Program Assessment Rating Tool)
* National Fire Plan (NFP) has a 10 year implementation plan.

Look, who pays is not a new issue. R5 has worked on this for years. Mutual aid agreements and processes for cost apportionment are and have been in place. They have been successful. What we're lacking is leadership and oversight, someone to supply direction and, in addition, to make sure that as fire managers retire, new people get trained in how the system works and how to assume leadership and lead. The Forest Service wants to change the system because it doesn't understand those successful fire programs or how they can be tuned up and managed well.

~~As far as suppression costs, the ground gets blamed for overspending, but that's because of the cost of whom they get sent... not because there's a lack of cost apportionment agreements or effective process.~~

~~If the FS creates a new system, or a new process... and if they get sent the same costly resources, costs will remain high or go higher.~~

~~If the Forest Service begs off the National Fire Plan -- ESF4: Firefighting there could be greater chaos and cost to the public.~~

Second, on the gap in communication, leadership and direction of the NWCG regarding the IMTs.
The Incident Management  Teams need to know: What does it mean now that the CWCG is in charge of IMTs? Where are the announcements? When are the meeting dates?

Third, on Regional Fire Directors not communicating with Forests:
For example, not communicating with respect to regional fire budget of all functional areas and information on retention. I'm sure there are other examples...

Regional fire directors either aren't doing their job of communicating important decisions, feel it isn't their job to make/communicate decisions, are overwhelmed with change and communicating change, or all of the above. Some regional program directors within fire have been "gagged", some groups -for example the one working on retention- have been gagged. Maybe we should do away with Regional FAM Directors and save a big chunk of the budget for the forests' programs. (tongue in cheek)

I heard last week from someone in a non-fire FS program that their manager who is directly involved with safety of firefighters during fire season "hates fire" and enjoys meeting with the Deputy Regional and Regional Forester to focus on ways to "bring fire into line". It feels like oppositional positions are being defined and strengthened, to what end?

Regional fire organizations exist; you are organizations of fire professionals. You know who you are. In your meetings you can set your own agenda, decide priorities, ask questions, demand answers or you can seek answers using your own processes. You can act.

Helpless leaders don't have to be quiet leaders!

Ab.

So if ICS has nothing to do with collar brass, why is the collar brass being worn on incidents. As some one posted, if they see crossed bugles they think they are PROBABLY dealing with a DIVS or higher. The point being, you don't know what the heck you are dealing with until you ask or otherwise determine their position. If you ASSUME they are DIVS or higher you might be making a huge blunder. You can put me down as one who is generally not a supporter of the bent little pieces of metal pinned on collars.

That being said, it appears that it is an important deal for the R-5 folks and I have no problem with that and fully support them. Just don't get upset if other units or Regions are not interested.

the cynic

R1 Blockhead

USFA and the National Wildfire Coordinating Group Announce New Wildfire Training Aid for Rural Firefighters

Emmitsburg, MD - Today, the U.S. Fire Administration in cooperation with the National Wildfire Coordinating Group, announced a new aid to help local and rural firefighters identify training equivalencies and needs for effectively fighting wildfires that threaten residential areas. The Skills Crosswalk (PDF, 572 Kb) identifies critical wildland firefighting skills that structural firefighters need to be safe and effective when making an initial attack on a wildland fire in their jurisdiction, or when working with state and federal wildland firefighter agencies.

“Our nation’s firefighters already have the necessary skills for fighting fires in all structures in a community," said U.S. Fire Administrator Greg Cade. "Structural training does not however always address the critical wildland fire suppression techniques which differ from structural firefighting techniques. The new Skills Crosswalk highlights the differences in order for structural firefighters to be able to address wildland fire suppression challenges.”

According to the U.S. Census Bureau 2006 report, in every area of the nation rural development is expanding into wildland areas. Since the 1980’s, the rural population has more than doubled, with 140 million people now living in rural areas. As a result, rural and volunteer firefighters increasingly manage fire in the Wildland/Urban Interface.

The new Skills Crosswalk provides a performance-based methodology and a learning resource guide for qualified structural firefighters to develop wildland firefighting knowledge and skills in a focused and time-efficient format. This methodology will assist structural firefighters with wildland skills in working more safely and effectively on initial and extended attack operations and enhance cooperative firefighting efforts with neighboring jurisdictions and federal wildland firefighters.

Visit the Wildfire section of the U.S. Fire Administration’s Web site for additional information and to download the Skills Crosswalk.

Thanks Bethany. Ab.

About the what not the who. Ab.

I was told today by a R5 FFMO that the south zone forests have or
are putting in for another 25% pay increase request in addition to the
recruitment and retention strategies being proposed. Any word on this?

nn

I never thought that a couple of shiny plungers could cause such a ruckus!!

As one of the ever shrinking number of "firefighters" left on the Rogue
River-Siskiyou NF, I thought I might share what transpired before this letter.

This summer our little forest was fortunate enough to be granted a visit from
the R6 Regional Forester, Linda Goodman. During this visit she was less than
happy when one of the district AFMOs introduced themself using their
Battalion call sign. She wanted to know why these call signs were being used
and who had approved it.

It would seem to reason that maybe Mr. Conroy had a little help writing this
letter.

Ajax

I believe the real reason for helmet colors was to identify to the Press who was in Charge. No use in talking to the person actual dealing with the situation who might get it right.

All info needs to be modified to fit the talking points of the Agency in vogue during that particular time frame.

Actually it really does facilitate Como between agencies and the public & Press if all adopt it. I remember a real FUBAR when the Press asked a 1st year FPT in a white helmet what their thoughts were on an incident. (the Forest had not come to grip with standardization in the Fire Service). It was hilarious when printed..

Fish01

Todd

Ain't it funny that, as we in wildland fire persist in extolling the values of collar bugles, the US Army has REMOVED all collar brass, and instead has gone to a subdued rank insignia (they're all black) worn on the chest buttons of their combat uniforms? And when they pull on their body armor, it's nearly impossible to see. But then, combat in Iraq and Afghanistan is truly different from California fires. Maybe the Army guys and girls are afraid that Blackwater will target them?

Me, I still favor those old white peel-off Fires Position labels for your hardhat (I've still got an old "Sector Boss" sticker in my archives)! And what about the orange ICS vests of the 1980's?

Hundekot (showing my age!!)

That's LoomisHannah who has received rave reviews. Looks like there is an "early career" wildland firefighter special. Her link is on our classifieds page under services. Ab.

I found this article concerning potential plans to consolidate NEPA skills in central locations. For example, National Forest in Wyoming would have NEPA products come out of Denver. You know how hard it is to shake non-fire folks with good fire quals out of their units now, think about them being located in areas with supervisors that have absolutely no tie to fire.

Here is a quote from the article:

“Remove thousands of employees with firefighting responsibilities from national forests and relocate them in far-away service centers. Nearly half (3,564) of all Forest Service employees doing NEPA work have collateral all-hazard duties.”

The full story can be read at www.casperstartribune.net

Witness Tree

Signed, “777”

I don't really have a problem with how just a hotshot responded. Yet I do not agree. The reason is that, as Misery Whip suggested (I try to distance myself from Mr. Whip's thoughts mostly), we are using a different definition for failure. I would suggest that my standard for failure is much different than most. I have held myself at such a high standard for failure that I am at times not willing to even fully accept success. That is my world. Anyone can read the strong signals, use all of your senses and expect the unexpected from the weak signals.

My first Supt. had a commitment to himself that if he ever put the crew into shelters he would find another job. When I became a Supt. I made the same commitment to myself and my crew. You know what, it worked and I never put them into shelters or a situation that compromised anyone's safety due to that commitment. Just as I expect you to get the same outcome from your approach. So here is the deal, you call it what you want, but train predominately on those aspects that will keep you and those under your command away from opportunities to use shelters. You are correct that if anyone would consider not using a shelter due to the potential repercussions, that needs to be corrected. I have heard of and believe that has occurred. In any case, Good Luck.

Intothewind

noname22

Thanks for the dialog on this, although I don't exactly think I need defending. Haw Haw... (Don't you hate it when you laugh so hard snot runs out your nose.) OK, let me catch my breath... I think perceptions of fireshelter use, training, potential feelings after entrapment and ability to focus on survival is an important discussion to have and to have with your crews. I'm glad Intothewind directed his comments to "Ab" -- it's pretty standard practice here. Over a number of years we've found we all get further if we keep discussion about the issues and avoid getting personal.

Carry on, All. Ab.

Tried to reply earlier, but my mail is not working right. I think we are in agreement that the goal should be to professionalize fire program managers...... and I believe that is indeed the intent of IFPM. You mention that To get around the problem.... some positions are using non-401 series and circumventing requisite fire experience.

IFMP is not the "problem"; it is the directed solution. What we need is for the agency to follow its own direction and use the 401 series (which in itself does not require fire experience), along with the specific fire qualifications (identified in IFPM) when filling fire program leadership positions.

Unless there has been change since my retirement, the direction was to allow incumbent up until 2009 to gain commensurate fire qualifications, but NO new positions were to be filled except by qualified personnel. That direction has on occasion been circumvented, and puts those line officers making such selections in violation of national direction.

I can't imagine the Chief wanting to sit before a Senate committee and testify: "Yes, we recognized the need to have experienced professionals with appropriate credentials leading the fire program. We established that as national policy. Then we allowed ourselves to circumvent that policy....a nd here we are again discussing our most recent tragedy."

My hope is that the Chief and the RFs will adhere to IFPM and ensure only experienced and qualified fire professionals lead the fire program. Our folks on the line deserve nothing less.

Old Fire Guy (ret)

Here's my perspective on fire shelter use.
Using your fire shelter in a life and death situation is failure. Going
into a safety zone is not failure, Going into a safety zone is the end
result of using situational awareness, to develop a plan, which includes
LCES, and then implement the plan through timely decision making. If
you would suggest as you have that resorting to using a fire shelter is
not failure, I am strongly disagreeing. If you were on my unit I would
have a discussion concerning your approach and attitude towards safety.

With concerns to the Cascade APA, there may be the beginning of a debate on
whether the team did the right thing. The fact that someone determined
that an APA be conducted was appropriate in my mind; I don't believe that
is being debated. What it appears is that there is willingness to
determine if it is acceptable to have firefighters breathing bad air for 8
days, and it is not. In my mind it is an extremely serious example of poor
decision making. The team did not perform their basic purpose of meeting
not only the incident objectives but also of meeting the foundational guideline
of firefighting, which is to take care of your people.

My point on what will occur with the report is not much, at least to date it
appears not to be much. I've been waiting on the IC or DPIC on my team to
bring it up as an important issue to discuss with the team. Ok, so there is still
time, but to date it has not occurred so, how seriously is it being viewed by the
institution that is most responsible here, IMTs? I have some doubts, one of
those being did anyone really learn from this situation? We will see.

Let's breakdown the situation into simple terms. The team's choices, stay at
the current location, or move to another location. The decision to stay
is, quite frankly, an easy decision to make, and not the difficult decision
to make as some would suggest. The difficult decision,  from any aspect that
one could consider, would have been to make the move. They didn't make the
harder, in my opinion, better choice. How could anyone ever trust that team
again? The local leadership should be held accountable, as well, and that includes
the Agency Representatives, and Line Officers.

Where I believe the loop to be broken is, so we did a report, big deal. I
read lots of reports. I would have read the report on the Cascade ICP
situation regardless of the title, process and/or format. What's my point?
I am a student of my profession, wildland fire. However there is no true
method to be held accountable. At least when there are accident prevention
plans, and requirements to be met, we get held accountable. We don't like
it but it is a fact. Look at what came out of 30 mile and Cramer. Lots of
important improvements, we did not like them and many were centered on
the USFS, but I believe that we improved as a profession because of those
changes.

Intothewind

We've posted a 4 minute clip on YouTube, www.youtube.com/watch?v=-waTEc0GXRE

The FS folks who insist that Smokey Bear does not have a middle name will probably not like the credit on the back dvd cover for "U.S. the Forest Service."

vfd cap'n

Martin Luther King said:

“THE TIME IS ALWAYS RIGHT TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT”

Signed: Forestry Technician Wildland Firefighter, Living the Dream

Maybe we should do away with engine typing as well.

Tahoe Terrie

My impression has always been that fireline leadership failures rarely come from inability to determine the "rank" of the person to whom one is speaking.  If anything, they come from incompetent people filling leadership roles for which they are overwhelmed, or unprepared.  I don't see collar brass doing anything except complicate that problem.

Just my humble two cents.
PB

nomane6 is correct. Below is R-5's reasoning on collar brass with the 2005 letter and a portion of the briefing paper.

I've heard LOT (Line Officer Team) is looking at why we wear collar brass as well. This is another example of why we need centralized fire management, just like our Forest Service LEOs. It's only a matter of time until something happens that will push the issue of "how best to manage firefighters" over the top and centralized fire management will become a reality. The fire organization will be managed by fire managers meeting IFPM ICS requirements all the way to the Nat Director of FAM for the Forest, similar to how the National Director of LE&I (Law Enforcement & Investigation) reports directly to the Chief of the Forest Service.

LE&I centralized mgt after being told by non-LEO Line Officers, what and what not to investigate. Fire has investigators as well. Due to the inherent dangerous nature of the job, Firefighters deserve strong leadership from someone who has been in the trenches for many years working his/her way up through the fire ranks. We do have some strong Line Officers with strong fire backgrounds out there doing a great job and we would welcome them into our soon-to-be-centralized fire organization. However, the majority are not meeting expectations. Some examples of what has happened since the 70's under Line Officer management of the fire org:

• Endless lawsuits and consent decrees lasting for years.
• Reams of regulation and rules that often conflict and confuse fire managers and Firefighters.
• Increased Line Officer workloads requiring more focus on non-fire Forest activities and issues such as personnel, recreation and resource management.
• Meaningless accident investigations, with some leading to criminal charges.
• Serious retention and morale issues. Some have said; R-5 FAM could have done something before it got so bad. Remember the R-5 FAM Director works for a Line Officer and does not work for the National Director of Fire Mgt.......yet.
• Lack of a common down-to-earth understanding on how to relate and communicate with fire personnel.

Transforming the mistakes of the past 30 years does not require brain surgery and does not need to be analyzed for the next 5 years. It's common sense and can be implemented with a stroke of the Chief's pen. I think the Forest Service would be wise to do this now vs. under the pressure of congressional reps as what happened with the LEO group. These representatives have heard this before and will continue to hear why centralized fire management is needed. The Internet age has given us the ability now to get our message across.

Much has changed since the Forest Service was created.

• We now have laws and executive orders requiring cooperative working relationships with local and state fire organizations.
• We have legal authorities for the sole purpose of agreements with other fire service organizations, promoting common understandings during emergency situations, financial processes and the creation of common practices with other fire service organizations as we try and serve the public in a standardized approach .

Does the R-6 Forest Supervisor understand this? Gifford and his first District Rangers never had the dynamics we now have associated with emergency service.

It's not just time to centralize fire, it's time to come together as a fire org and Forest Service and prove better days can be in our future if we work together.

Forest Service mgt has the opportunity to make change and move into the 21st century, the easy way or the hard way. Either way, we will not stop until this nonsense stops.

I'd like to hear from the Rogue River - Siskiyou fire employees. If this is an unsettling decision by your Forest Supv, R-5 would like to have your skills in our region. Job announcements close in a couple weeks with hiring soon after that.

Signed,

Keep Hammering Away, Keep the Chatter High.
We Will Succeed Because We are Right!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: June 21, 2005
Subject: Collar Brass Guidelines for Region 5 Fire, Fuels, and Aviation Management
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors

The purpose of this letter is to give direction on the use of collar brass in the Pacific Southwest Region. Regional direction is that all fire management personnel Fire Engine Operator (FEO) and above will wear collar brass. Recognition of Command and/or Leadership is paramount on every incident.

The USDA Forest Service, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection and 940 local fire departments work together in an interagency effort to protect the lives and property of 34.5 million California residents from the ravages of fire. It is imperative that during emergency situations, police and fire personnel be able to quickly identify various levels of authority. The collar brass is also helpful in identifying rank when there are multiple fire officials in field situations, meetings, planning sessions, training or other non-emergency settings. The collar brass will also provide a uniform means of identifying command and rank structure within all fire agencies across the United States and a visual and rapid means of recognizing the rank of command personnel. It is intended to promote quick identification and communications of key fire management personnel by officials of other agencies, the media and the general public.

All employees should wear the same size and style collar brass. The size and style differ from one manufacturer to another. The recommended style of collar brass in California is a silhouette gold star-type collar brass, one-half of an inch in size. All other silhouette-type collar brass must be approximately seven-eighths of an inch in size. The attached document identifies Fire Management positions in Region 5 with the correct collar brass insignia to be worn and diagrams of the proper placement of collar brass insignia on the uniform.

If you have questions regarding this direction please contact George Motschall, (951) 276-65xx, at the Southern California GACC or Tom Hatcher, (530) 226-27xx, at the Northern California GACC.

/s/ Kent P. Connaughton
Bernard Weingardt
Regional Forester

Enclosure

cc: Ray Quintanar, Ralph Domanski, FFAM BOD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A portion of the Briefing Paper - Other areas of the paper included pictures to how to wear:

Pacific Southwest Region
Fire and Aviation Management
Position Paper- Use of Collar Brass

History- In the early days of North American Fire Departments, orders were given to the troops, by officers speaking through a device that resembled a megaphone. These were very ornate brass horns. They were commonly called “Bugles” or “Speaking Trumpets”. This was the major means of communications on the fire ground for over 100 years. Officers were the only personnel allowed to use these objects. From this, a small pin in the shape of a bugle became a rank insignia for fire service officers. The number of bugles designates a rank held in the fire service. Generally speaking, the more bugles an individual have the higher the rank in the fire service. These pins, worn on the collar of a shirt, are commonly referred to as “ Collar Brass”.

Discussion- The California Fire Service has been recognized as innovative and inventive when it comes to all risk emergency management. In response to the devastating wildfires in 1970, California ’s local, state and federal fire agencies saw the need and developed FIRESCOPE, Firefighting Resources of California Organized for Potential Emergencies. This group created the Incident Command System (ICS), which has become the national standard for All Risk Incident Management. The U. S. Forest Service, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection and over 940 local fire departments work together in an interagency effort to protect the lives and property of 34.5 million residents, a population that exceeds the populations of Regions 1,2,3,4,6 and 10 combined.

Recognition of Command and/or Leadership is paramount on every incident. This identification can be accomplished a number of ways, from the color of the helmet or hardhat a firefighter wears to the Collar Brass they wear on their uniform. It is imperative that, during emergency situations, police and fire personnel be able to quickly identify various levels of authority. Collar Brass insignia are approved and worn by a majority of the Fire Departments in the United States . Collar Brass provides a uniform means of identifying command and rank structure within all fire agencies across the United States . It provides a visual and rapid means of recognizing the rank of command personnel, and is intended to promote quick identification and communications of key fire management personnel by officials of other agencies, the media, and the general public. Collar brass is also helpful in identifying rank when there are multiple fire officials in field situations, meetings, planning sessions, training or other non-emergency settings.

Guidelines for Implementation- All employees should wear the same size and style collar brass. The size and style differ from one manufacturer to another. The recommended style of collar brass in California is; Silhouette gold star-type collar brass one-half of an inch in size, All other silhouette-type collar brass, must be approximately seven-eighths of an inch in size. The approved manufacturer is Blackington & Company. The attached information identifies Fire Management positions in Region 5 with the correct collar brass insignia to be worn and diagrams of the proper placement of collar brass insignia on the uniform.

My argument was that
to say 2007 was a success because no one died in the
entrapments misses the more important point that there
were a large number of situations in which people may
have been injured or killed. I take exception to the
fire organization categorizing the year as a safety
success based solely on the presence or absence of
fatalities. I am certain in many cases the decisions
made by the individuals involved contributed directly
to their own survival, and I hope the lessons of South
Canyon and Thirtymile contributed to the high
survivorship of the 2007 entrapments. I just disagree
that if no one died it was a “safe” year.

I prefer to
look at 2007 as a season where too many firefighters
faced those tough decisions you described. I am
incredibly thankful for the high survival rate, but I
resent the attitude that success is determined simply
by the outcome (in this case no fatalities). Not
knowing the specifics of most of the situations, I am
not comfortable with assigning a “successful” value to
the season as that seems to ignore the potential
lessons from each circumstance.

My frustration is not
at the firefighters who faced these tough calls, but
with an organization focused more on the statistics
than the learning process. I fear calling a large
number of entrapments without fatalities a success
negates the strategies, tactics, decisions, and human
factors that put people into those dangerous
situations to begin with. I worry that to call the
year a success because no one died glosses over the
seriousness of multiple entrapments during the same
season. Your points were well taken, though, and I
certainly see where my comments missed the mark.
Thanks to all for this forum so this learning can
occur.

Burro

Ab,

I think Conroy is acting on orders to get "those fire people back in line". I predict
we will see more of this in the near future as the war for control of the money
continues and the non-fire managers bunker in. Probably hand picked by someone
in Washington, Conroy apparently is not afraid of a fight. Google his name and you
will see what I mean.

I agree with MOC4546 for the most part that Federal Wildland Fire Management
needs to be detached and run by fire professionals. The interesting part is,
according to the forest service organization and hierarchy structure, we dont really
have any fire professionals.

I think this quote is appropriate here: "Never be afraid to try something new.
Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic." unknown
author.

sting

Just so folks know who the Region 6 Forest Supervisor cc:d the comments to:

M.J. Harvie, Aviation & Fire Staff Officer
Rogue River-Siskiyou NF, Supervisors Office
Region 6 & Pacific Northwest Research Station

Connie Weathers, Fleet Manager
Rogue River-Siskiyou NF, Supervisors Office
Region 6 & Pacific Northwest Research Station

I'd bet the Rogue Rivers-Siskiyou NF Forest Supervisor just ended his career
by alienating his only support base.... federal wildland firefighters. I'd bet, though
not sure, that this Forest Supervisor supported A-76, Business Process
Reengineering, and the general sell out of the wildland fire program.

He made a mistake.... he has time to correct his direction..... Leaders above
(WO) or below him (Forests and Districts) can help him be successful. Someone
needs to kick him in the juevos.

JMHO

Welcome FFJ. Check the hotlist thread in initial attack: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=14063#post14063 Something not posted publicly, but sent in by a contributor and in the private accident forum is this:

080108-FL-FLS-Turkey Roost Command-Tractor Plow Burnover
location: Old Grade and I-4
Lat: 28° 11´ 7" Long: 81° 44´ 17"
Polk County

final fire size: 388 acres, grew from escaped Rx burn

Burnover of tractor plow during IA, estimated cost $65,000.
1 injury: Lakeland personnel, injury to Ranger MA (Ab reduced to initials), 2nd degree burns to his right hand.

A news article with a link in the hotlist cites the damage as being in the hundreds of thousands for the tractor plow.

For more major media info go to the News Button at the top of the page and after reading what we have, enter your own search words in the google box that pops up. Ab.

On first look, I'd think that the Forest Supervisor was drawing a line in the sand....

But then I realized all of the vacant Deputy Regional Forester positions that were coming available nationwide.... and the folks who are on the short list.

R-6 Fire Management should call BS.

If any group is going to save the Forest Service, it is going to be the Forest Service firefighters!!!!

/s/ The Emperor Has No Clothes

Government cost for a 462-6/1 $22.34 x 80 hours = $1787.20 x 8 additional pp = $14297.60
if we look at what we pay for unemployment for the 8 pp off @ $900.00 per pp = $7200.00 with a difference of $7097.60,
meaning we can work the employee for a additional 8 pp with a cost of $7097.60,
breaks down to $887.20 versus the $900.00 per pay period on unemployment.

This would give more incentive for folks to want a job with the R5 Forests and to be able to take care of their family, retirement, continues getting paid, TSP is being deducted for retirement, Medical Ins, work is getting done, time for step increase will be faster. I know this a budget issue and some years are worse then others and it has probably been brought up more the once.

So here you go.

nn

AFEOs (Asst Fire Engine Operators); PFT (Permanent Full Time); TSP (Thrift Savings Plan - retirement); pp (pay period)

AB,

It's apparent that Scott Conroy, Forest Supervisor of the Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest has no idea why the use of collar brass and identifier call signs such as battalion or division ## are used.  I guess we should all go back to wearing unmarked yellow hard hats, drive un marked fire vehicles and using our last name so that other federal and state fire personnel have no idea who is in charge of an incident. Maybe he should just remove the radios from all fire rigs as you won't need them if you don't know who's who and they can all do independent action. What's worse than not knowing who the IC is on an evolving incident, is a forest supervisor that is willing put all personnel in jeopardy.  This forest supt. has lost it.

noname6

I am a survivor of a burnover. I was thrust into a situation that was a typical example of the Swiss Cheese Model. Latent errors stacked up, that were out of my control. It wasn't that my situational awareness had failed me so much as there were unexpected things that were thrown in front of me. The first unexpected situation was an unexpected cold front split the main head of the fire into two heads. The second being mechanical failure to my fire engine. If there was not the mechanical failure to my engine, I am confident that we would have made it to our safety zone with little to no problem. I would like to think that it was my Situational Awareness that was able to keep my firefighter and myself alive.

There were a few other things that stacked up against us that contributed to the situation but we did the best with what we had, and are still here to talk about it today and to help others learn from our incident. It seems to be the attitude in the wildland fire service that an "Entrapment will Never Happen to Me". Someday there will be a harsh wake up call to those who think that way. I had the same attitude before my incident. In my opinion, that attitude is what hinders Situational Awareness. After my burnover I beat myself up over what I did wrong. But a few key and influential people in wildland firefighting shared stories with me about when they were thrust into similar situations. After talking with these prolific individuals (some of which were Hotshot Supts and Smokejumpers), I realized I made the best of the worst situation you could be in and I am still here to share my story. So, I tell my story to anyone willing to listen, if someone can learn from it and it sparks a safer attitude then I am pleased!

We can not eliminate all of the dangers of our job, but we can try to mitigate them. Our job is one of the most dangerous in the world. We can not afford to second guess each others decisions after the fact, but we can try to learn from them.

Brushfire

• I believe there may have been more incidents than were caught in this report. I don't know yet.
• It was an accident-filled season and easy to loose track, even for someone closely watching and recording every day.
• Perhaps NWCG and I differ in what we consider a serious incident.
  
• I would have preferred a different wording or elaboration to express a different, less abstract tone in NWCG's memo, here, for example:

  Accident prevention is enhanced when firefighters and fire managers are made aware of serious accidents that have occurred over the year and can identify where our future safety emphasis areas should be.

  The report memo overall makes me feel like it's stressing the positive (glass mostly full) when it should give some weight to the fact that more still needs to be done and a commitment to lessons learned (glass still part-way empty and that's what we need to work on). I always take such reports as an opportunity for inspiration to do better.
  

• I definitely do not see shelter deployment as failure. Deployment may mean survival of a potentially deadly situation not under your own control and/or not of your own conscious making.

Ab.

LOL, Tahoe Terrie

Carbon monoxide is not heavier than air, in fact it is slightly lighter having a specific density of .968. Air is 1, nitrogen is .967, oxygen is 1.105 and carbon dioxide is 1.521. It will be thoroughly mixed with the air. A good reference on gases is the Air Liquide website: http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/encyclopedia.asp?CountryID=19&LanguageID=11

The smoke filled inversion was over the entire area, even the new camp near the town of Cascade was in heavy smoke from time to time. Yes it was probably heavier when everyone sat in the safety zone and watched the fire burn by, but there was no clean air anywhere in central Idaho during that period.

***********
One thing to remember, possession of a Red Card does not mean that the bearer is Line Qualified. It is just a document showing qualifications. Personnel Time Recorders, Computer Technical Specialists, Radio Operators, Ordering Managers, etc. all have needed qualifications to keep the incident running, and they all have Red Cards, but only a very few are qualified to engage in suppression efforts on the line.

NVJims

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 5160/7130 Date: January 11, 2008
Subject: Rescission of the Forest Collar Brass and Call Sign Plan
To: District and Supervisor's Office Fire Management Employees
Thru: District Rangers and Forest Fire Staff Officer

All employees of the Forest Service including employees in fire management are critical to accomplishing our land management mission. The Fire Management program is an integral part of the agency and is not a separate fire service. Wearing collar brass sets our fire management employees apart and gives the appearance of creating a separate organization.

Therefore, effective immediately, I am rescinding the Forest’s Collar Brass and Call Sign Plan, signed on February 5, 2007.

1. Forest employees will not wear collar brass on their uniforms or other clothing.

2. Fire program personnel will use our traditional nomenclature for titles and introductions as do the rest of the agency personnel when attending meetings, training, during an incident, etc. Refer to your position description working title.

3. Radio use will follow direction in the Interagency Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations (Red Book, 01/2007, Page 16-5), which is to “use clear text language”. Individuals will use their name. Crews, Engines, Prevention patrols will continue to use their module identifier as in the past.

4. Fire emergency vehicle markings will continue as outlined in the April 4, 2005 letter sent by the Directors’ of Engineering and Fire.

If you have questions please direct those to M.J. Harvie at (snip).

/s/ Scott D. Conroy
SCOTT D. CONROY
Forest Supervisor
cc: Connie Weathers

noname

I just want to say for all who sent their Engineer Cal Fire apps., good luck to all.
Hope you all made a wise choice. It's too bad that our Agency is so far behind
in taking care of their employees. Hopefully, what ever comes out of the Retention
meeting and their decision will be worth it for some of us who decided to stay.
"What can Green do for You".

fsff

I have to agree with you, I am a line FF myself and have more than once gone to a safety zone while the fire "burns by". There has never been an APA report on these incidents. If I'm not mistaken isn't a fire camp set up to be one big safety zone? I watched a quick clip of the incident and it seemed the "non-fire" support staff was in a group and looked relatively safe, is that an accurate statement? As a person who doesn't spend a great deal of time in camp, I am curious to know what people who do spend most of their time working there think about fire coming this close. Does this type of incident make you feel any less safe in fire camp?

FFJ

Carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin on red blood cells in the blood, preventing oxygen from binding; it binds much more strongly (100x) than carbon dioxide meaning you can get worse over time as it accumulates and the body can't get rid of it; the organs of the body that use oxygen most (central nervous system & heart) get starved of oxygen first.

Oxygen starvation is called hypoxia. Faulty thinking is one side effect of hypoxia. Because of its effect on thinking, you don't even know you're no longer the sharpest knife in the drawer or that you're not as sharp as you were before. You may have headache, feel confused, nauseous, have low energy, You're also more likely to have cardiovascular problems, including heart attack.

Members of Broyles team were not thinking straight. Some didn't even know the answers to the simplest questions. Deciding to stay could have been the result of faulty decision making due to carbon monoxide poisoning. It's a human factor, not knowing what you don't know because you're poisoned, assuming you're ok.

One important lesson learned could be deciding to factor carbon monoxide into the decision of whether to go or stay. Carbon monoxide detectors anyone? I wonder what the readings would have been.

I saw one article on here about carbon monoxide? yesterday...
Carbon Monoxide Bulletin (137K pdf file) from Normbc9

Googled "Carbon Monoxide" poisoning

www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/
www.emedicinehealth.com/carbon_monoxide_poisoning/article_em.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm

Medicine knows a lot about it. Mitigation???

Strider

If the agency adheres to IFPM standards, and the 2009 deadline, then we could see a significant number of new "managers" with requisite fire experience....... not such a bad deal.

Old Fire Guy (ret.)

I'd also like opinions from camp personnel. Ab.

I agree. We have a private (moderators only) sub-forum on the hotlist that is a compilation of all the posts that came in or that the Abs or Mods uncovered this last season. There are 5 pages of threads and some of the threads are multiple pages long. Some posts were private communications until families were notified and information was made public. We've thought of making this subforum visible to hotlist members for a limited time so firefighters can browse and can add information if they have specific additional knowledge on the mishaps. I'm currently in the process of checking our list against the NWCG list and, in addition, want to go over the posts to make sure any private communications are OK now. I need to confer with Original Ab some more before we do this. Ab.

January 15, 2008
MEMORANDUM

To: Chair, National Wildfire Coordinating Group
From: Chair, Safety and Health Working Team
Subject: 2007 SAFETY GRAM

The 2007 SAFETY GRAM (268K pdf file) is attached. It summarizes reported wildland fire fatalities, burnovers/entrapments and other serious accidents for all wildland fire management organizations throughout the United States in 2007.

Nine fatalities occurred in 2007 when employees were performing wildland fire management activities. This is a substantial decrease from the 24 fatalities that were reported in 2006. Also noteworthy is the absence of any entrapment or burnover related fatalities.

The 2007 fatalities are listed by category below:
Aviation – 1: Fatality occurred when helicopter was performing logistical support.
Driving – 3: Fatalities occurred when firefighters were returning from a prescribed fire (1) and training (2).
Hazard Tree/Snag – 1: Fatality occurred when a tree fell on a firefighter during chain saw training.
Heart Attacks – 2: Fatalities occurred following the Work Capacity Test (pack test) and firefighting.
Other – 2: Fatalities occurred when a dozer rolled over while constructing fire line (1) and by electrocution (1).

Accident prevention is enhanced when firefighters and fire managers are made aware of serious accidents that have occurred over the year and can identify where our future safety emphasis areas should be. Please provide wide distribution of the 2007 SAFETY GRAM to your respective agencies and organizations. In addition, SHWT will distribute via NWCG Safety Alert System.

Please feel free to contact me at (208) 387-51xx or michelle_ryerson at nifc.blm.gov if you have any questions or need additional information.

signed Michelle Ryerson

My bold in the memo. Ab.

I was brought up when the government would not let you use government postage or a government envelope to mail your application in.

The work ethic I was brought up on is, do your application on your own time. Once you think it is ready bring it in and have some folks with more time and experience look it over and make suggestions (mentoring, coaching).

I do not approve of my folks working on their application on government time except as stated above. My justification is if the government won’t pay for an envelope or stamp to mail it, why would they pay wages for an employee to work on his application. I don’t remember seeing it in the job description or performance appraisals. I also expect folks to work when they come to work and a: 30 lunch is just that. It turns my stomach when I pull into a station and they are watching movies, these are usually the same folks who don’t remember how to start a MKIII or have dull chain on their saw, not to mention having a GPS unit that they barely know how to use. I wished we worked twelve hour days so we could actually do the field, maintenance, training and administrative work we need to. Take care and burn that midnight oil on your dime not the taxpayers to better application and get that promotion, dream job, and live the dream.

Signed Forestry Technician, Wildland Firefighter, living the dream!

Normbc9

The IC or someone on the Boise forest - or better the Chief of the Park Service or the FS needs - to apologize for keeping non-red carded folks in a place where everyone knew they were going to get "burned over" (calling it a "burn-by" was a childish attempt at a cover-up. Who did that?).

I really like the "just culture ideal" and hope someday we can look at fatality fires like this report did. The report makes it clear that the folks at ICP were trying hard to do the right thing. But !!! (and this is a big Butt !!!) not managing checkpoints, not managing CO exposure, not evacuating non-redcarded folks from the ICP before camp was " burnover" was (in "hindsight" OK, OK, OK) a very, very bad decision.

I'm not saying "heads should roll" over this but if there is one thing this new APA process needs, it's a contrition page. The "Lessons Learned by the Peers" section just doesn't go far enough.

thanks for listening.
Firekidds

The Old Forest Service and the Modern Forest Service decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Old Forest Service won by a mile. The Modern Forest Service, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was that the Old Forest Service team had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the Modern Forest Service team had 8 people steering and one person rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in order, the Modern Forest Service management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised that, in the National Rowing Plan, too many people were steering the boat while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to use that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Old Forest Service, the Modern Forest Service rowing team management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager with none of then having any rowing experience.

They also implemented a new performance system that would make the 1 person rowing the boat more professional and accountable. It was called the "IFPM Rowing Team Program", with meetings, classes, and deadlines for the rower and a requirement to take 15 more courses on AgLearn. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, and extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. It never occurred to anyone to add additional rowers.

The next year the Old Forest Service won by two miles. Humiliated, the Modern Forest Service management abandoned the National Rowing Plan, laid off the rower not meeting the deadline, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investment in new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Albuquerque Service Center as bonuses and the next year's rowing team was outsourced to private contractors.

Author Unknown

Think about the amount of discretionary money created with so many vacancies open in R5 alone (1 state out of many). If you were in a position to support many programs that do not stand on their own and congress does not fund them, why would you want to fix it? There would less funds to be used elsewhere. Keep it in this dysfunctional state as long as possible? Sometimes I wonder, unfortunately at this point I truly think this is the case.

fsbc

Thanks, no name. I clarified by putting the message in blockquotes. Ab.

Legoland

Haw Haw. Ab.

Upshot is that I heard that the San Bernardino NF firefighters involved in the Esperanza tragedy are currently being interviewed by OIG.

FEDS founder lawyer Tony Vergnetti plus lawyer Debra Roth presented info within the last week at the BDF Module meetings: They covered such legal topics as Criminal vs Civil cases; Garrity & Kalkines Rights -- Compelled vs Non-compelled Testimony; Public Law 107-203; etc, all that legal beagle stuff.

I hope everyone on the BDF is studied up and on the same page. I hope all fed managers have excellent professional liability insurance (PLI) coverage.

I also heard Casey talked with Feinstein's Regional Director in San Diego suggesting that OIG shouldn't be conducting investigations unless and until OIG has established policies on Investigation Team composition, Fire Training, etc. Makes sense.

As a result of my current little research project, I went to the FEDS website. (Its link is listed on the Classifieds page.) Their offer of 6 months free professional liability insurance coverage if you switch from another company was extended until the end of this month. Sounds like a good deal to me, knowing Tony's expertise and passion for wildland firefighters and the fact that he did most of the legal defense work for the "other company" you'd be switching from!

Here's the FEDS article on why PLI is necessary today.
The MEAT of it -- the part that should be read by all wildland firefighters -- begins on page 3. (Pages 1 and 2 introduce Tony, what their FEDS PLI offers, costs, etc...)

fwfsa-feds-article.pdf (101K pdf file)

If anyone wants to chime in with first hand reports, feel free.

Mellie

this just in . . . "no name"

* Vicki Jackson (R5) and a group of several are doing a "far reaching" assessment of ASC-HCM. (Albuquerque Service Center - Human Capital Management)

* There are "serious" problems with EmpowHR that are not meeting our needs. Given that, on February 4, we will DISCONTINUE the use of EmpowHR MSS (Manager Self Service). The ONLY units who will be using MSS will be the R3-RO, and two NFs in R3, the Cibola and the Santa Fe. These units will be using the EmpowHR process in conjunction with HCM to continue to work out the problems with the system. All field units, including the WO will not be using EmpowHR MSS for a "long long" time. (EmpowHR ESS (employee self service) is still working and will continue to function)

* We will be going back to paper copies of SF-52 actions, though this process is yet to be determined. Possibility we will move into the SF-52 tracker program, but again, yet to be determined.

* Here's a biggie -- ALL temporary hiring, including FIRE HIRES will be done by Region 5. Because of R5's sizeable HR presence, and because they have not migrated yet, it was decided that ALL hiring will be done by R5 - this is for EVERYONE, including the three R3 units above and Job Corps. This system will be in place for a MINIMUM of TWO years.

* HCM and CIO have developed a 3-page course for IT Security that's geared towards seasonals and temporary hires. The new employee (during orientation) will now only have to do the course on paper, certify that they have taken the course and sign it.

* Chief is recording a video that will be available to all employees sometime around February 4 (watch for the icon on your desktop) that explains some of what I'm telling you here.

And, I'll be attending the HCM e-meeting on temporary employment on January 23 and 24. Stay tuned, this is all getting very exciting.

Please keep us informed if anything else comes in. Might this help streamline the fire hiring process? Ab.

BK

Sent a note to T. Reply is above... Ab.

Certainly someone with years of experience in the fire organization is worth more to an
incident that a newbe coming in. Then there's the question about even being able to get
into the training. As a federal employee, it didn't matter if I went out as a member of the
command staff, or as a trainee in another position, the pay was the same.

Still Out There as an AD

This is just out from CalFire and it is for public distribution. Carbon Monoxide Bulletin (137K pdf file)

This certainly does apply to us in this profession both on the line and in the fire camps, too.
Just think of what is hanging around the places where we are operating internal combustion
equipment. Due to studies of the atmosphere in structure fires, the requirement to continue
to don SCBAs during the overhaul phase tells me that the same situation exists in very
smoky areas of the wildfires too. Maybe the SCBAs all of us carry have a broader use
than just confined to a structure fire?

Normbc9

From: Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations 2008 (Jan. 2008)

DOI Required Treatment for Burn Injuries The following procedures will be used when DOI employees sustain burn injuries, regardless of agency jurisdiction.  These procedures will also apply to federal employees, casuals, and other personnel covered by the Federal Employee's Compensation Act who are burned during a wildland fire operation within DOI jurisdiction.

After on-site medical response, initial medical stabilization, and evaluation are completed, agency administrator will coordinate with the attending physician to ensure that an employee whose injuries meet any of the following burn injury criteria (identified by the American Burn Association as warranting immediate referral to an accredited burn center) is immediately referred to the nearest regional burn center.  A list of possible burn care facilities can be found at: www.blm.gov/nifc/st/en/prog/fire/im.html.

The decision to refer the employee to a regional burn center will be made directly by the attending physician or may be requested of the physician by the agency administrator.

Burn Injury Criteria
• Partial thickness burns (second degree) involving greater than 5% Total  Body Surface Area (TBSA).
• Burns involving the face, hands, feet, genitalia, perineum, or major joints.
• Third-degree burns of any size are present.
• Electrical burns, including lightning injury are present.
• Inhalation injury is suspected.
• Burns are accompanied by traumatic injury (such as fractures).
• Individuals are unable to immediately return to full duty.

It is imperative that action is expeditious, as burn injuries are often difficult to evaluate and may take 72 hours to manifest themselves.  When there is any doubt as to the severity of the injury, the required action is to immediately refer and transport the employee to a regional burn center.

Here's the wlf.com hotlist burn center list, focused on western centers, created by Strider. Ab.

She must be head-over-heels to want to move to
Worland. There is a BLM office in Worland which
houses the North Zone (of Wyoming) BLM fire
organization. It's not far from the real "Broken
Back" mountain - though there is no link between the
BLM fire and that movie. The dispatch for this area
is in Cody (about 1.5 hrs from Worland) and there may
be some upcoming opportunities there. Forest Service
offices are in Lovell, Greybull (IHC crew) and Cody.
Other than that, tell her to buy some Wranglers and
that leather boots are still in style for fashionable
footwear...Wyoming is great though, no income tax,
plenty of oil/gas revenues, good schools, wolves and
grizzly bears everywhere...

Go 'Pokes (That's a boost for UW - the Cowboys or
"pokes", nothing to do with the movie)

www.adfirefighter.org/images/Newletter_No._5_Jan_15_08.doc (67K doc file)

Thanks,

Bigwheels

MT Fire: Smoldering coal seam possible cause of winter wildland fire
www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=7687485

Hollenshead is continuing to analyze dispatch offices workload,
responsibility in R5 using info from the dispatch feasibility study.
Might make sense to see what part is law enforcement, rec, fire,
etc. All the forests have different needs.

left coast noname

NJ managed to get all the Fire Warden titles, Fire Control Tech. and
Forest Fire Observer (Look Out) into the State Police and Fire Pension
System some years ago, Unfortunately some titles got left out and it's
been a long unsuccessful fight to try to get them in.

We're still working on it through the Union and other means.

Oswego

On Point

I found this in my in my Lotus inbox. While on the BDF this past Fall, we got a chance
to meet Chief Seltzner, and other BDF employees, and hear another perspective to the
Factual Report. The Analysis goes in hand with the Factual Report.

www.fire.ca.gov/fire_er_content/downloads/esperanza_00_complete_final_draft_05_01_2007.pdf  (3,865K pdf file)

Esperanza Fire Analysis (92K word doc)

Seltzner Perspective (28K word doc)

Signed-
Another R5 Squaddie

Thanks Squaddie. Here's the link to Misery Whip's comments on Esperanza from 6/6/07-- Esperanza-Critique -- as well. Ab.

Out of the 10 or so folks that put in Calfire apps, I only know of 2 that received supplemental apps to continue the process. 1 BC who got a capt. Sup app, and 1 FPT that got an Engineer app. And the supplemental apps are HEAVY on Structural knowledge classes, so ya better know your structure fire very well...The rest either received letters that said they were not qualified, (including someone who had been a FS BC for over 5 years, and didn't even qualify as captain in Calfire), to most of those who received nice , polite letters saying they have enough internal applicants in the Northern cal area (Calfire Engineers and such) to fill all current vacancies. So, maybe the far NW forests in cali won't be as bad off for employees as first thought. At the end of last season, Calfire laid off their Nor cal FF's so early that we were able to pick a couple up as SCEPS on our engines for the rest of the season. And With the governators big cuts coming, who knows the future of calfire?

-Sancho

My wife and I had a long conversation this weekend on what it would
take to stay with the forest service. It is disappointing to hear that current
employees that have gone through the application process were already
written off for the retention meeting. I did a lot of thinking about this whole
process and was hopping the Forest Service would step up before people
move on. I am not moving on because I want a hotel room during fires, I
am moving on because we in the Forest Service need to meet some
equitable pay for being gone 100+ days a year from our homes in order
to make mortgage and basic household costs. Also be able to spend time
with my boys and not feel guilty about missing a fire and ot.

You can post this under the name gogo.

Welcome gogo. I hope you will hang on a bit longer. The comment about current CalFire interviewees being "written off" in that meeting may have been to help the meeting participants tackle the process with the intent of helping for the long term. I hope the FS shares the specific good ideas that were put forth in the meeting. Ab.

Question: What are the expectations for the recommendations to the Chief to improve retention?

• FS change of mission from a multiple use land management to an all emergency response agency?
• Increase in pay.... How much? What is the expected annual income?
• 100% health care without employee contribution?
• Seasonal employee benefits equivalent to permanent appointments?
• Breadth of application (SOCal or R5 or nation wide?)

Not sure I've heard any specifics; more a generalization of "let's make things better" which is certainly a good starting point. What are the specifics though?

As far as timing in relation to anticipated CALFIRE hiring, I wouldn't anticipate any government agency to be able to make significant unilateral change within that timeframe. It will take change in policies, regulations and perhaps even laws. Not saying it can't be done, just that it is a time consuming process.

Anyone care to offer specifics?
Thanks.
OFG (ret)

www.oregonlive.com

Interesting article about the FS Fire Retardant EA. Looks like it may
not be a done deal after all, dropping water only probably won't be all
that effective, but I do kind of agree that the FS didn't fully address the
issue with the EA. I can send you the EA if you need it too, and wouldn't
hurt to keep me anonymous if you choose to post this.

Great forum!

NR

You may have your bags packed and be ready to go, hopefully not gone
yet, but whatever your decision, you will not be forgotten. One thing I
have found through the last 8 years is that firefighters who begin as FS
and then move on continue with the work ethic, service orientation,
environmental sensibilities and training instilled in their early days on forests,
mountains and rangelands, far from paved surfaces and motel accommodations.

My best to you dude/dudette!

Mellie

I really appreciated you sharing the FS acronyms as compared to the real world. Some of us come from states that have a Department of Natural Resources or DNR. My business partner has early work experience in the medical field but now we do conflict resolution work (one reason I check “They Said” almost daily). When she hears “DNR” she has to work to avoid reverting back to her early days when it meant “Do Not Resuscitate”!

I’d hate to think that could apply the Forest Service!

Ever green….

The Witness Tree

I've heard hope of better things and some people with insider information saying it will be better. All I see is Systems Normal and another failed attempt right now. Sorry for being a pessimist, but after 10 yrs of being swept under the rug, it is hard not to be pessimistic some days.

Two reasons I am leaving:

1. I'm married and getting paid bachelor wages and
2. I want to work for an employer that has no choice but to listen to its employees.

No offense to Casey or the NFFE, they both do a terrific job in trying to beat that mole over the head in "Whack a Mole". I'm sure senators make the same sound when you connect finally! :) I want to work for and organization that is run by Firefighters! My question is with FAE hiring coming up and current FEOs and AFEOs applying. The Captains list out and FEOs are moving into their vacated positions. Who is gonna drive the type 3 engines in this world with the ENOP specifications in place? Are we gonna shove 2nd year FFs through their FFT1 Taskbooks? Scary!

Anyways, enough of the stool. This may get Mellie on her stool again!

Thanks,
Maybe gone Maybe Forgotten!

Officials open state wallet to boost ID fire prevention
Article posted on Fireengineering.com from the Times News -Magicvalley.com

BOISE -- Just months after Idaho suffered through its worst fire season ever, Gov. C.L. "Butch" Otter and the Idaho Legislature are hoping to beef up measures to minimize the impact -- financially and physically -- wildfires could have in the future.

Otter wants $10 million for his Governor's Emergency Fund, which he says will be reserved for fighting wildfires in 2008.

In a routine matter, he's also asking for $1.2 million from the state's general fund to replenish part of the Disaster Emergency Relief Fund, which Otter tapped for the rehabilitation and seeding efforts on the 650,000 acres charred in the Murphy Complex Fire.

The money may be used by Otter for "any emergency which was not foreseen or reasonably foreseeable by the Legislature and which may arise in carrying on the essential functions of state government and in protecting the interest of the state which have been impaired by such emergency," according to state law. It has a balance of about $80,000 and has been accessed for three or four years, according to the Division of Financial Management. Otter didn't seek funding for it last year.

Wildfires torched about 1.9 million acres in Idaho last year -- more than in any other state, according to the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise. About 9.2 million acres burned nationally, not counting some California wildfires still burning.

Federal land-management officials expect the mega-fire trend to continue as summers become hotter and drier. Authorities blamed the ferocity of this year's large fires on especially hot weather, high winds and a large amount of dry fuel.

Otter and his budget analysts feel that accessing the Governor's Emergency Fund would show more accountability. And unspent money would remain for the future, said spokesman Jon Hanian.

"With the case of fires, it underscored a need for the ability by the governor for an emergency fund," said Hanian.

How the $10 million proposal fares in the Legislature remains to be seen..... Click on article link above for full article -

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But, just when you thought it was safe.....(lol)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Otter family ranch receives wildfire aid
From the Times News -Magicvalley.com
By Jared S. Hopkins

BOISE - As Gov. C.L. "Butch" Otter asks state lawmakers for millions of dollars in reserves in case wildfires devastate Idaho again in 2008, funding for rehabilitation efforts in southern Idaho have already benefited his former employer - and ex-wife.

Last year, Otter issued $2 million by executive order for rehabilitation and reseeding in the wake of the 650,000-acre Murphy Complex Fire. The money went to state-owned land, much of it used for grazing by ranchers.

The ranch has two permits for access to 5,500 acres of state land, according to the Department of Lands. Its permit cost $3,689 based on an animal unit count of 620.

The company's primary stockholder is Otter's ex-wife, Gay Simplot. Otter worked for 30 years for Simplot. The ranch is used for livestock owned by the Simplot Company. The land is in a trust fund for Otter's children from his first marriage, according to Otter's office.

Otter did not intervene on behalf of Gay Simplot, and the rehabilitation efforts were coordinated among state and federal agencies, said Chuck Jones, ranch operation manager for Simplot Livestock Management Company, which has 16 ranches.

"The governor didn't use his influence as an ex-husband of Gay Simplot to get us anything. He was concerned about everybody out there, not just Simplot ranches....."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just thought these were kind of interesting on a slow day.

sr5401

Does it seem like the content here on theysaid now differs from content of previous years at this time of year? Seems that usually in early to mid-January contributors have begun rehashing burnovers, near misses and lessons learned, what might or might not be included in training, the stuff of better practices for survival on the fireline. This year it's about budget, jobs, whether to change agency for their careers and families. Maybe I'm wrong.

Mellie

The Abs haven't had time to post the page of photos of the post-Inyo Complex burnover yet. Perhaps there were so many near misses and accidents firefighters don't know where to start. The NWCG working group hasn't come out with their list yet, that I'm aware of. Everyone is busy writing their congress person? The immediate need takes precedence. Ab.

Items mentioned affect BLM, such as dropping A-76 study for Dispatch
and Fire Training and Congress high interest in hazardous fuels funding
allocation.

JS

I didn't upload the original document or make a link. Its text is posted on theysaid if you scroll down. Ab.

Attached are the CA Assembly Budget Committee highlights of the Governor’s Proposal (900 K word doc) for the Special session fiscal emergency and the 2008-09 state Budget. Below are the pertinent parts for CalFire:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CA Department of Forestry and Fire Protection

Special Session Fiscal Emergency Proposals:

• Reduces $2.9 million (General Fund) in 2008-09 from resource management programs and will reduce the Department's capacity to review timber harvest plans, enforce environmental protection standards, and conduct nursery operations and vegetation management programs. Some of the functions affected by these reductions will be funded through new bond fund appropriations.
• Reduces $4.8 million (General Fund) and 46 positions from Department administration in 2008-09.
• Generates $125 million (Insurance Fund) beginning in 2008-09 in new revenue by assessing a 1.25 percent fee on statewide homeowner insurance policies to fund fire suppression programs. This increase in revenue will be used to offset an otherwise $44.7 million reduction in General Fund support for fire protection programs.

2008-09 Budget Proposals:

• Augments $33 million (Insurance Fund) and 387 new positions to implement the following recommendations of the 2007 Southern California Wildfire Action Plan: Increase staffing of Fire Engines from 3 to 4 firefighters; manage fire suppression fleet through new global positioning systems; and replacement of 10 helicopters. Additionally, there will be a corresponding proposal in the Office of Emergency Services to procure 100 new fire engines that are to be distributed statewide.
• Augments $4.4 million (Proposition 84) and 12.1 positions for the Department to evaluate climate change's impacts on forests and the begin implementation of strategies such as tree planting, stand management, biofuel energy generation, and fuels reductions projects.

Here's the message accompanying the Jocko Lakes images from Al Henkel. Al is a FF2 himself, best kind of fire photojournalism. Ab.

These are from the Jocko Lakes Fire in MT. Taken by Al Henkel/NBC News on assignment for NBC
Div "C" 09 Aug 07
Holding during a burnout
Christian Blankenship from the AK Type-1 team
Tim Wilson/Sup  from the Happy Camp IHC

Flashback to the summer:

Here's the Story Al did for the NBC Nightly News, 8/31/07. I dug out his old email.  Can't remember if I posted it then... Thanks, Al. Ab.

Ab,
here are some links to a Fire story I did last week for NBC Nightly News.

A big thanks to Lynn Wilcock Team from Alaska on the Jocko lakes fire last month, USFS Engine 402 in Ogden, UT, and Box Elder County, UT Fire Marshal Greg Martz.

The story that aired 31 Aug:
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=92b6b512-67ab-4b0a-ba63-5207875f82cd&f=00&fg=copy

The blog entry:
http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/08/31/334078.aspx#comments

Photo Link:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20464418/

Thanks
Al Henkel/NBC News SW Bureau

Lobo's posting validates some of Mellie's comments on cost of living in No Cal. Since some No Cal employees live in more rural areas, gas prices are at or above the Needles price. Food prices and utilities are high everywhere. I can only imagine how high food prices are in rural No. Cal areas where super-centers do not exist. Housing: Yes in So Cal they're off the charts. However, they're coming down in So Cal (double digits % downward in some areas) and don't appear to be coming down in other areas of the Northwest such as Seattle, Portland and Redding. With that said, I appreciate Ed and others for looking at the issue regionally vs. focusing only on a quarter of the state. We don't need a divided region.

I write this with some caution, as we have not seen the report. Missing 2 deadlines for release is troubling. First it was, we will release the report after the RF is briefed. Then it changed to, we need to brief the WO and we will give you some more information in Feb. What's the WO going to say? "We need to brief the Dept and open some discussions with OPM before we release"? The issue is retention and retention overwhelmingly is related to pay, benefits and cost of living. Mixing issues diverts focus from what the main issue is = PAY and is a common tactic of meeting managers who may not be sold on the urgency of the primary issue (red flag #1). What related to the mission could be discussed? The only thing I can think of is centralized fire and I don't think a strong majority of R-5 firefighters would go either way (centralized or traditional) if surveyed. Someone tell me what in our mission could be corrected to make a significant change in the number of employees leaving? We all have SCBAs and trauma kits. Some have AEDs. I don't know of any R-5 Forest that would not respond Firefighters to a medical aid within a National Forest. Help me on this one.

We have some strong Capt's and BCs ready to walk and others looking to get out or retire early. I don't want to lose those employees, period! If we can get the details out and associated implementation time lines, we may save some of them from leaving. Being told: "I expect to be able to share more information on this issue with you in February" is vague, does not show an effort to work together, does not acknowledge that mistakes have been made in the past, is not specific to how much more will be released in Feb and tells me the full report will never be released.

I'm glad Casey is hopeful. He and others probably know more about what's in or could be in the report. I just wish the remaining 99.7% of the R-5 fire org knew. Not only the details, but the time lines for decisions and implementation.

Concerned..........

As I understand it, February 1 is the deadline given by Congress in the Omnibus Bill. However, I heard that someone at the Dec07 Retention Meeting said it is unlikely firefighters with interviews for CalFire could be retained, like those firefighters were written off as losses already. Reducing the urgency for the final retention report and allowing time to pass reduces the options available, similar to a loss of situational awareness and "dawdling" in the face of a fire front prior to a burnover. I know I have said, "Let's give this process a chance," but how much time do they need and at what cost? I think some of our folks might stay if they saw some movement toward retention. Ab.

Gas Prices Nationwide with a search tool:
http://gasprices.mapquest.com/?cid=google&sem=1&ncid=MPQMAP00170000000008

Lowest Price: Crook, CO ($2.33/gl)
Highest (low) Price: Needles, CA ($3.71/gl.)
Highest (high) Price: KAUNAKAKAI, HI ($4.14/gl.)

Selected Lowest Price by Cities/State:

California
Los Angeles - $3.17/gl.
San Diego - $3.16/gl.
Eureka - $3.46/gl.
Sacramento - $3.14/gl.
Vallejo - $3.22/gl.
San Bernardino - $3.10/gl.
Redding - $3.08/gl.
Sonora - $3.24/gl.
Yreka - $3.38/gl.
Calimesa - $3.14/gl.
San Francisco - $3.28/gl.
Chico - $3.16/gl.
Santa Rosa - $3.15/gl.
Auburn - $3.16/gl.

Arizona
Phoenix - $2.80/gl.
Tuscon - $2.80/gl.
Kingman -  $2.84/gl.
Flagstaff - $2.95/gl.
Yuma - $2.94/gl.

Nevada
Las Vegas - $2.94/gl.
Reno - $3.04/gl.
Ely - $3.46/gl.

Washington
Seattle - $3.06/gl.
Spokane - $3.02/gl.
Yakima - $3.11/gl.

Oregon
Portland - $2.76/gl.
Bend - $3.16/gl.

Others
Boise, ID - $2.93/gl.
Missoula, MT - $2.96/gl.
Washington D.C. - $2.96/gl.
Salt Lake City, UT - $2.90/gl.
Santa Fe, NM - $2.81/gl.
Denver, CO - $2.67/gl.
Austin, TX - $2.83/gl.

Thanks for the research, Lobotomy. Ab

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sawtooth firefighting class to begin, needs students
by Damon Hunzeker
Times-News correspondent 01/13/2008
www.magicvalley.com

Have you ever wanted to jump in and fight a big fire? Nearly nine million acres burned in the United States last year - 1.5 million in Idaho - so even if the question seems preposterous, somebody has to do it.

The Sawtooth National Forest, in conjunction with the College of Southern Idaho, will provide a course on battling wildfires. Beginning Jan. 15, Introduction to Wildland Fire will be held from 6 to 9 p.m. every Tuesday and Thursday for eight weeks.

So far, four people have registered for the class, down from 15 last year. If enrollment doesn't increase by Tuesday, the class may be canceled.

As explained by lead facilitator Steve Clezie, the course is an amalgam of four disciplines within the larger effort toward suppressing and preventing uncontrolled fires: basic firefighting, leadership skills, wildland-weather knowledge, and a tutorial on the incident-command system.

The class combines pass/fail and graded work. In addition to lectures and presentations for which Clezie will bring in multiple experts, it includes exams, quizzes, and a field trip to the CSI Expo. The latter is the only hands-on aspect, because it's difficult to replicate a wildfire - even for academic purposes.

Like any college course, students are not guaranteed a job. They will not be certified for anything. However, they are guaranteed a significantly better chance of getting a job in a highly competitive field.

Clezie, a Navy veteran, has been with the Forest Service for 10 years. "The class will make you more marketable to get hired with a government agency," he said. "That's what it's intended to do - to give people an edge. They'll already have the basics covered."

Jobs with the Forest Service suit people who are looking for an adventurous career in the wild, college students, and, of course, people who simply hate fire. Those who take and pass the class are not going to get rich, but they are going to immerse themselves in a unique and unpredictable job.

"Aside from the adrenaline rush," Clezie said, "you get to meet a variety of different people because you travel so much. With people in California, or wherever, there's a camaraderie and a real sense of community."

Depending upon how many employees return from last season, the Forest Service will hire about 40 to 50 people this year - including the Sawtooth Hotshots, helicopter crews and trail teams.

The fire season runs from May 15 to Oct. 15. When fires are nonexistent or contained, Forest Service employees are still busy -sometimes working on fuel-reduction projects, sometimes building fences - and physical fitness is paramount. In the mornings, they alternate between running 3 to 5 miles, lifting weights and various other exercises.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Am I just not getting it, or maybe I am missing something?? Most companies/organizations, public/private, that have retention issues because of the lack of pay and better benefits, simply offer more $$ and better benefits to try and solve the retention issues. Empower employees, give recognition etc. Otherwise they lose employees, keep a few, hire more, lose some, and the cycle goes on until the organization simply does not have the people to carry on the cycle because there are no more to enter the cycle.

The mission? The mission is still the same, R-5 or R-4 or where-ever. The application may be a little different, is all. Brush vs. timber vs. grass etc. The mission is the same, but times have changed. Structural fire depts did not want to do EMS. But times changed, fires became more infrequent and medical aids became 80% of the job. The mission stayed the same, helping the public, but the application changed. Look at the LEO program...More aggressive enforcement vs. passive and educative ......

My .02 cents

Former Green Soldier..

• How is clarifying the agency mission going to keep hundreds of R-5 Firefighter
  from going to other agencies?
• How is clarifying the mission going to help some of our lower grade firefighters
  better afford fed health insurance premiums and begin to get off California
  assisted health care and food stamps?

Could someone who took part in the discussions or someone who has an issue
with the mission explain? Is this more of the R-5 failed doctrine strategy coming our
way? Or a way to appease and distract?

Signed,

Oh yeah, it's the mission stupid! Who would of thought.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All employees,

Today I received a briefing on the draft firefighter retention strategy for Region 5. The strategy identified issues affecting our ability to recruit and retain firefighters in Region 5. I appreciate the work the Retention Team accomplished in preparing the report and its recommendations. It has helped me to quickly understand the challenges before regional and agency leadership and allowed me to select the recommendations I want to bring forward. I have asked my staff to use the selected recommendations to craft the proposal I will present to the Chief. I believe the two primary issues are pay and clarity of the agency fire mission. I also want to address secondary issues related to work environment and leadership.

Briefings for leadership in the WO are planned for the end of this month. My plan will be finalized once I have reached agreement with the Chief on the proposal. The agreed upon proposal will be what will be used to respond to the request by the Senate Appropriations Committee for a retention strategy for this Region. I expect to be able to share more information on this issue with you in February.

RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester, R5
Phone: 707.562.9000
Fax: 707.562.9091

Good one, Grammar queen? (tongue in cheek) Ab.

You stated that folks should check with their agencies to see if immediate help would be available should a tragedy occur. As far as the FS goes, I believe that this would be a forest to forest situation.

In all fairness, the Stanislaus was wonderful to me. Even before they contacted Vicki, they were able to give me a check from the Employee's Association Fund, so there was an immediate response to my needs. Some forests that I have heard about.... not so much support.

Thank you to the WFF and all the wonderful folks both in the fire community and outside it that support our efforts to make sure every family has a "good" experience to remember during a time when everything else seems bad. Being able to stand back now and put everything into perspective - what a gift we have in Vicki, Burk, Melissa, and Candace. They are our first glimmer of light and hope during a dark time.

Love you guys!!

Lori

PS - Don't forget to join the 52 Club !! My first post of the year about this, but you can be sure it won't be my last!! ;-)

Did the retention report really get out yesterday? I haven't been able to find it. I'm really looking forward to reading it. Some good folks with excellent minds attended and participated. Thanks to all of you who worked so hard for so many days!

I hope they considered NorCal as well. SoCal has expensive housing. I think NorCal has the highest gas prices in the country and our food costs are through the roof in comparison with the south...

On the topic of financial agency support for families in times of tragedy:

We all know the FS firefighters often respond by passing the boot in fire camp, etc, but that otherwise there was a mass of legalities and bureaucracy. That's why the WFF began as I understand it, because by law, the feds couldn't help financially or with motels, transport, returning the body, etc, right away.

Don't know about states support for FF families when things go bad. I heard years ago that CDF was supportive - but a friend said that lately Cal Fire's non-gov support group gets hung up in red tape on the financial side. This would be important to know if these families really need help fast for bills and lodging and travel, and we in the larger community just don't know about it. Can anyone from Cal Fire say what kind of help is the reality?

I think we all need the WFF. Thanks Melissa, Vicki, Burk, Candace and all the other helpers and supporters! Readers, keep in mind that when money is tight across the country, it's even tighter for non-profit orgs like our WFF. Let's make sure we have our cushion.

Mellie

Just wanted to pass on this new way to give that I found.

When playing online computer games or searching at Windows Live Search Club
http://club.live.com/home.aspx

You can create an account so that you earn tickets for each game you win. There
is the option to donate these tickets to charity and WFF is one of the charities on
there.

The windows people cut a check once a year for the amount determined by total
tickets donated. Each ticket is worth 1 cent, but these things can add up quickly
if a few people are playing.

For example, my favorite game on there pays out 25 tickets for each win. That's
a quarter a game to WFF.

I only play every now and again, but I've racked up $30 worth of tickets so far :)

Here's the link to how to set everything up http://club.live.com/sg_help.aspx

So when you feel the need for a little amusement, take the chance to do some
good at the same time

ADTexas

Thanks, ADTexas. You and Lobotomy and SRJS and the Honor Guard are always looking for some new way to benefit the WFF. Others like Ken Perry and Mike Apicello and Dave Hannibal and Jim Felix and the Brinkleys and Lori and others I don't know of... consistently help in ways that work, as do those on the "5 years of 52" list. If we all had that kind of a mindset, we'd never worry that we could run out of wff support funds mid-fire-season. Bottom line is that if we don't contribute and ask our local communities to contribute, our fire families may have inadequate safety net.

On the video, Lori Greeno's comments on what happens after the death of a loved one are why this Ab supports the WFF. Following John's death, she was told by the FS that there would be no paychecks for 2 months. In addition to dealing with her grief, she then also had to think about how she would pay the immediate bills - the mortgage, food for the kids, etc. No one in our community should have to do that.

This is where the WFF steps in. When tragedy befalls us, the WFF hears right away from us and/or directly from members of the wildlandfire community. Networking moves into high gear for getting the family financial support, making arrangements for travel, lodging, getting them information, whatever is needed. This occurs whether the injured or fallen firefighter is state, private, fed, vollie, oes, or county.

Sometimes an agency appears to have its own support system. Sometimes that support is an illusion if financial needs can't be met when our fire family is overwhelmed and their need is there. Support several weeks after the major need is support of a different sort. I would ask all of you -- that think your agency provides support -- to find out if it really does, and how quickly it can provide families with financial support with very few questions asked (when families aren't thinking clearly).

My point is that all wildland firefighters need this safety net our WFF provides. We all need to contribute and keep contributing every year and in every way possible to make it real. The WFF is our support funnel to our families. Ab.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation serves to help the families of fallen and injured firefighters.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-pcULpLZeE (5 min)

Thanks,
fwfsasocal

Great to see the faces of so many of our community. Send the link to your friends. Send in your donation to the WFF 52 Club. Get your friends to send in their donation. The 52 Club has turned 5! Ab.

We're bound to run out of acronyms sometime or other. Heh, I don't think that was the motivation for the change to CalFire. Wonder what the Forest Service is going to do to deal with its acronyms & nicknames... Ab.

Copy and paste and email all that you think Feinstein and the other Congressional Reps will find interested in knowing what we are being spoon fed. We need to keep hammering, keep the chatter high and awareness of our issues even higher. Copy/paste, email, copy/paste, email, copy/paste email.

They know a big change is coming the first Tuesday in November of this year. A change they probably think will be more favorable to our situation. After all these years, I can see the politicos in the WO trying to bring out the "compassionate" word and to show how much they cared about employees ever since 2000 in the hopes of staying employed after Jan 21, 2009. Funny how we haven't heard the words "Compassionate Conservative" since the 2000 campaign. Now that they know the jig is almost up, it's time to play nice again.

Harbour said;

to be the leanest, most efficient organization we can be in the atmosphere of today’s static and declining budgets.

So what does this mean? = Less IHCs? Less Engines?, Less Type 2 IA Crews? Everything you read that is negative to our goals as Fed Firefighters and fed fire management, needs to be brought to the attention of our representatives. Email away!

Keep hammering, hammer away. Keep the chatter high and awareness of our issues even higher. Oh and by the way, you can purchase your Under Secretary Mark Ray Countdown to Forced Out Retirement Clocks on sale now at a store near you.

One more thing.
Thanks for keeping your word and getting that Retention Report out today R-5. Now you wonder why the ground has a hard time connecting with false leaders in far away offices. If a crew says they're going to tie the line in at 1800, they tie the line in, or keep working until it's tied in. They don't take the weekend off and worry about the line Monday morning. It's called honoring your word. Have a good weekend.

Signed,

Change it coming. YES WE CAN ! O

The Feasibility Studies for Dispatch and Wildland Fire Training we finished as a prelude to any further competitions or reorganizations will be presented to the Executive Leadership Team (ELT) this month for consideration. Some organizational changes may still be coming based on the Chief’s acceptance of any of the recommendations in the Feasibility Studies. We still have an overwhelming need to be the leanest, most efficient organization we can be in the atmosphere of today’s static and declining budgets. In addition, we are continuing the work we started last year in aviation. More on that to come…

Are the actions described in the paragraph a violation of federal law? Mark, can you go ask Tom to clarify this wording? Appreciate that if he clarifies, to not just post it on his blog.

As previously posted, the bills says...........

(2) None of the funds made available by this or any
other Act may be used in fiscal year 2008 for
competitive sourcing studies and any related
activities involving Forest Service personnel.

ms

The proposed rule included exemptions for safety-toe protective
footwear, often called steel-toe shoes, and prescription safety
eyewear. The proposal would have placed conditions on these exemptions:
(1) The employer permits such footwear or eyewear to be worn off the
jobsite; (2) the footwear or eyewear is not used at work in a manner
that renders it unsafe for use off the jobsite; and (3) such footwear
or eyewear is not designed for special use on the job (64 FR 15415).
The final rule contains a similar condition; employers are not required
to pay for these items when they are permitted to be worn off the
jobsite.

In the proposed rule, the Agency reasoned that safety-toe
protective footwear should be exempted because it was sized to fit a
particular employee and is not generally worn by other employees due to
size and hygienic concerns; was often worn away from the jobsite; was
readily available in appropriate styles; and was customarily paid for
by employees in some industries (Id. at 15415). OSHA also noted that
the 1994 policy memorandum exempted safety shoes from the employer
payment requirement (Id.). The Agency proposed to exempt prescription
safety eyewear because it also was very personal in nature, could
generally be used by only one employee, and was commonly used away from
work (Id.).

While the text does not explicitly say "fire boots" the reasoning for exempting steel-toed boots and logging boots applies just as aptly to fire boots. So, I wouldn't go blow those pennies you have been pinching for new boots just yet!

(Well, actually knowing me, *I* probably would, but *you* might not want to follow my lead on this one!)

Cheers,
PB

Ab,

I went through the language on the Omnibus spending bill and frankly I’m confused.

SEC. 415. (a) LIMITATION ON COMPETITIVE SOURCING
STUDIES. -
(1) Of the funds made available by this or any other
Act to the Department of the Interior for fiscal year
2008, not more than $3,450,000 may be used by the
Secretary of the Interior to initiate or continue
competitive sourcing studies in fiscal year 2008 for
programs, projects, and activities for which funds are
appropriated by this Act.
(2) None of the funds made available by this or any
other Act may be used in fiscal year 2008 for
competitive sourcing studies and any related
activities involving Forest Service personnel.

Does this include spending hourly time on competitive sourcing?

ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS, FOREST SERVICE
The Committee is concerned about the huge costs of
agency business process centralization and therefore
directs that detailed reports remain a part of the
budget justification and that all expenses be
carefully evaluated and explained, and transparent to
the public at large…

The Committee notes that the Forest Service has done a
poor job of implementing its competitive sourcing
program. Section 414 in Title IV general provisions
includes bill language providing a one-year moratorium
for the Forest Service on this matter. The Committee
notes that its investigations staff previously found
widespread management lapses which required
legislative action. P.L. 109-54 Sec. 422(d) requires
the Forest Service to report, `in accordance with full
cost accounting principles, all costs attributable to
developing, implementing, supporting, managing,
monitoring, and reporting on competitive sourcing,
including personnel, consultant, travel, and training
costs associated with program management.' This has
not been implemented. The Committee understands that
alleged savings are not substantiated. The Forest
Service has inadequately considered the potential
impact on its ability to provide emergency wildfire
staffing when engaging in competitive sourcing which
could dramatically alter the Federal workforce.

What do they mean by a one-year moratorium for the
Forest Service?

SEC. 415. Continues language restricting the amount of
funds available to the Department of the Interior for
competitive sourcing activities and prohibits from the
Forest Service from spending any funds available to
the agency for competitive sourcing and related
activities. This restriction shall apply not only to
competitions conducted under OMB Circular A–76, but
also to associated pre-planning activities, including
feasibility studies. The Committee notes that the
Forest Service’s lack of demonstrated savings and lack
of compliance with congressional directives regarding
the program led Congress to request an investigation
by the Government Accountability Office. As this
investigation is ongoing, the Committee believes it
would be imprudent to allow the agency to continue its
outsourcing program until GAO’s findings are known.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

confused fire fighter

The jobs page is heating up. Those who want to advertise, remember that the sooner you get your ad in, the higher on the Jobs list you'll be. Job listings are posted in the order received. Contact advertising@wildlandfire.com to place a jobs ad.

The Jobs page Wildland Firefighter Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) & Series 0401 (Biologist) have been updated.

There's some good discussion for newbies and others applying for jobs on the hotlist discussion forum.

Team announcements are out in R5. Not posted on wlf.com though.

Ab.

AL

The list for Cal Fire open list just came out. 306 people on the open list.
I think my letter said 196 from Cal Fire. Should get real interesting soon.

Flycrewsupe

Oliver

For those in R5, here's some basic information on who's covered by which standard in Region 5 and who is not covered. This info from JP-T went out to R5 Chiefs yesterday and is circulating on FS emails. I put it in a table for easier reading. It's good the R5 BOD planned and standardized and organized when these DOI standards were accepted by the FS (a DOA agency with different structure than the DOI agencies). It's good Pincha-Tulley knows what-is-what in this confusing situation. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/ifpm-vs-fs_fpm-position.htm

roadrunner

U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management

Message from the Director
January 10, 2008

Happy New Year! I wish all of us health, happiness and the ability to go home safely.

There is a lot going on, as usual. Our FY08 budget was decided through the Omnibus Bill passed by Congress and signed by the President in December. Hearings on the ’09 Budget will begin soon after the President announces it in mid-January. We are still working through the FY08 allocation to determine the dollar figures for hazardous fuels, preparedness and suppression. There were several interesting items in Congressional direction included in the Omnibus Bill. Between House, Senate, and Conference language, there are about forty noted items of intent or direction. For example, Congress has a special interest in how we allocate hazardous fuels funds and took note of the difficulty of retaining firefighters in southern California with a request that the USFS to give them some solutions. Also included in the budget language was permanent authority to expand the reimbursement program for firefighter liability insurance. The budget shop will have all the details soon and we’ll keep you posted.

Obviously, we will obey the language in the 08 Omnibus Bill directing that no money be spent in 2008 for A-76 studies – what many of you may hear called competitive sourcing activities. The Feasibility Studies for Dispatch and Wildland Fire Training we finished as a prelude to any further competitions or reorganizations will be presented to the Executive Leadership Team (ELT) this month for consideration. Some organizational changes may still be coming based on the Chief’s acceptance of any of the recommendations in the Feasibility Studies. We still have an overwhelming need to be the leanest, most efficient organization we can be in the atmosphere of today’s static and declining budgets. In addition, we are continuing the work we started last year in aviation. More on that to come…

One January event I’m really looking forward to is starting my Blog. “Tom’s Blog” is on the Forest Service intranet site and I’m very excited about using this technology to reach across the physical distance between me, the Deputy and Assistant Directors here in the WO and all the folks in the field who want a forum to share some concerns or ideas about the Forest Service Fire and Aviation Management Program. To get to my Blog, employees can go the FSweb site, click on Beta: FS Blog, enter your EAuth information, and then stop in Tom’s Blog. Before we get started, I wanted to review the Policy for the FS Blog sites so we are all clear on what will happen:

Blogger and Commenting Policy
• We will tell the truth. We will acknowledge and correct any mistakes promptly.
• We will not delete comments unless they are off-topic, spam, or defamatory.
• Bloggers will reply to comments when appropriate and as promptly as possible. However, there will not be a response for each comment. Many comments may not receive a response.
• We will link to online references and original source materials directly
• We will disagree with other opinions respectfully.

I won’t be able answer every thought or opinion and that’s not really what a Blog is for, but I will do my best to read and understand your points of view. If there are questions or misinformation my staff can answer, they will log in and address some of the postings. I may send my moderator some thoughts from the road on occasion if I can’t get on to post them myself. Rest assured she will post them word-for-word and her moderator duties and ethics are solidly behind the policy statements above.

Remember you need your EAuth information to get in to Tom’s Blog – the same you use for your AgLearn User ID and Password - which also means there is no anonymity.

I hope you access Tom’s Blog and join in the dialogue. I want to hear about what going on from the White Mountain NF fire program to the very different experiences on the Cleveland NF, in Florida and all across the nation.

Once again, let’s make this another great year.
Tom Harbour

Dan: Fire Retention in Region 5 will affect Nation. A letter came out from Congressional that gave management till February 1st to how to retain firefighters in the Forest Service. Will meet with RF Randy Moore regarding this Jan. 25. This is a major work on position descriptions for these firefighters (initial response). Firefighters want parity of pay with other firefighter organizations in California. This should be on the FSPC agenda in March or May.

wrench

Please remind all your folks to be very cautious when using secondary braking, (Output shaft retarders, Jake Brakes, exhaust brakes) in wet weather.

The DMV Commercial Driver Handbook recommends:

Retarders Some vehicles have “retarders.” Retarders help slow a vehicle, reducing the need for using your brakes. They reduce brake wear and give you another way to slow down. There are many types of retarders (exhaust, engine, hydraulic, electric). All retarders can be turned on or off by the driver. On some vehicles the retarding power can be adjusted. When turned “on,” retarders apply braking power to the drive wheels only whenever you let up on the accelerator pedal all the way. Caution. When the drive wheels have poor traction, the retarder may cause them to skid. You should turn the retarder off whenever the road is wet, icy, or snowy.

International Truck and Engine Corp. Recommendations:

! WARNING: Do not use the vehicle retarder, engine or exhaust brake on slippery road surfaces. Doing so may cause wheel slippage and/or loss of vehicle control, which could result in property damage, personal injury or death.

Gordon L. Gholson
Southern Region Fleet Manager
CAL FIRE

Thanks to SUPER P and Still renting, but not giving up!!! for their info on purchasing a house as a seasonal employee. So far things are going fine. It seems at least with the prices of houses here in Oregon the lenders don't really care that I am a seasonal, although they say I should avoid including my unemployment income if I can qualify without it. Actually, they seem pretty desperate and as long as you have good credit you could easily get a loan for much more than would be affordable on a monthly basis. Of course they make it sound easy I am slightly worried about what will happen after I make an offer. The whole process of verifying I am employed when I am on unemployment sounds interesting to say the least. Lets see if the FS hr people tell them if I have "rehire eligibility" or not...

-oohello

He's new. It would be a good idea to get our views to him while he's fresh and not jaded.

Bear (not smokey)

SoCal Fires' Economic impact

1/2/08
To a variety of people in the agencies named above:

<snipped names>, I wanted to make sure you were aware of this report
www.calmis.ca.gov/specialreports/SoCalFires-Oct2007.pdf, which was
prepared by the EDD’s Labor Market Information Division. It details the
economic losses from the fires late last year. One of the more interesting
conclusions drawn from the analysis is that if the fires had been allowed
to spread just another half a mile past the boundaries of the actual burn
areas, the total economic losses would have more than doubled. This
certainly suggests that fire managers made some very wise decisions while
battling these blazes. I thought this might inform your post-fire wrap-ups
and deliberations.

Regards,

Paul Feist
Assistant Secretary for Communications
Labor and Workforce Development Agency
labor.CA.gov

Had to write as my experience with loan companies and realtors, is that they tell you that you can EASILY qualify for a loan that turns out WAY more than you might decide you can come up w/ financially! Buyer beware.

Decide yourself what your financial limits are and be prepared. They say it's a buyer's market, but I haven't found that. Maybe I'm wrong???

Helpful used books can be bought cheaply on amazon.com, or the public library: see the "For Dummies" books on first time house buying, mortgage books, "Idiot's Guides"..and see www.suzeorman.com, writes a fine book that actually compares renting vs buying and questions to answer.... internet sites are helpful and realtor.com etc. has all kinds of free information to get you started.

I don't own a house, but I found out there are so many "hidden" costs to buying a house. Do your homework and it will cost anywhere from $20,000-$30,000 up front or more to just get into a $100-150,000 house it appears??? Obviously not in CA, either! It's a great investment, though.

Signed: Still renting, but not giving up!!!

All financial planners say that home ownership is the key to building wealth. Keep at it if you can. Ab.

I added the last details to your original post. Ab.

"Temporary employees, who have been selected competitively and successfully
completed their tour of duty, will be eligible for rehire the next season without
further competition in accordance with the provisions of the applicable authority.
Rehire eligibility will remain in effect for up to 3 years from the date of separation
from the appointment on which eligibility is based."

That agreement often was mistaken as "rehire rights" after R-5 forests were required to document in writing and provide to the employee a statement that they would not be rehired... an effort to stem unfair labor practice complaints.  By defacto application,  "rehire eligibility" became rehire rights as interpreted by many.

As far as permanent employees go, the term is reinstatement eligibility.  I used the process after going to DoD for a short stint, only to want to return to the Forest Service some 12 years ago.

It's no joke

• No excuse for the Deputy RF for not being at the meeting, especially after getting spanked by Feinstein on this issue on 2 different occasions.
• No excuse for not meeting agreed-to deadlines.
• No excuse for redacting portions of the discussion or proposals not agreed to by the RO.
• If they toss out options, those ideas need to be known to promote learning, understanding and education of other possibilities. We might want someone to work on those ideas for us outside of the halls of Mare Island.
• No excuse for not calling upon as many resources, including working weekends to complete this report on time.

I can't picture anyone who was strong enough (mentally) and respected enough (leader) to be invited to attend this meeting would be clamming up in front of them. Now I may or some may clam up in front of Incident Commanders, very respected peers, or true fire management leaders, but these RO guys, I don't think so.

Release the report in its entirety, immediately!

Signed,

We will succeed, because we are right!

Thanks, Flash. This has been on the evening news. I first got wind of it via some posts on the HOTLIST, on IA, starting at 0800 this morning as well. Ab.

There's a message making the rounds on the FS web. It's for USFS
personnel only:

There's a change underway in the HSQ (Health Screening Questionnaire)
process for the USFS. Larry Sutton, Fire Ops Risk Management Officer, is
working on the official info for the WCT Administration Guide.

Word is that forests shouldn't send anything regarding HSQ approval for
2008 until after they are informed of the changes.

AL

HSQ = Health Screening Questionnaire, pre-requisite to the Work Capacity Test (formerly called the "Pack Test")

www.fresnobee.com/263/story/275868.html

Tarnished terrain
A fire plane dropping retardant in the Sierra left an unfortunate graffiti mark behind.
By Marek Warszawski / The Fresno Bee

An air tanker working for the U.S. Forest Service last summer dropped a load of fire retardant across the summit of a pristine High Sierra peak, leaving a bright red stripe that is visible for miles.

Investigators still are trying to determine what took place July 8 in the skies above 13,200-foot Feather Peak, about 15 miles northeast of Florence Lake in the John Muir Wilderness. No fire was burning nearby.

The incident went unreported until wilderness rangers from the Inyo National Forest began fielding questions from hikers and climbers about the large, red stain across an otherwise white granite mountaintop. (more, with pic)

Well, the time is here. It is time to turn in my badge and move on. When
I moved to R5 24 years ago as a District Fire Management Officer on the
Ukonom District, I was overwhelmed by all things R5. But I learned that I
could learn alot from my peers and my leaders. I count each of you as not
only as fellow leader but as friends. I thank you for your faith and trust
in me as a Chief Officer. I thank you for the southern California
wildfires; now there is laboratory within which to learn. I thank you for
the plume dominated fires on the Shasta-T. I thank you you for your
bravery to move forward with fire use (some may not be as brave as others,
but we have to move on). And I thank you in advance for the time that you
will invest in our employees as you embark on the retention strategies that
are to unfold. Nothing is more important than the people that we have
working for us!!

I have more to say but it is time to go home. So, I will see you again,
sometime, somewhere. Stay the course. Stay safe and please make sure that
everything you do has a good, solid anchor point!! This is a great place to
live and work and I wish you well with the future!

..Jay..

Thanks, Jay, for your service. Ab.

Did I miss it?

Todd

"...And please, don't say rehire rights when talking to temps. No one, not even permanents who are going for reinstatement have rights. It's always eligibility."

Thank you Lori! I was all set to chime in with the exact same thing. I have spent a lot of time correcting this misconception with my temporary employees over the years.

Rehire eligibility is a special consideration given to former government employees (typically 1039's, but this is relevant for permanent employees who leave service after gaining career status as well) with regards to a position which they at one time occupied. this means that a temp on my crew who rated successful in performance does not have to re-apply/compete for the same job next summer. It does not give them non competitive rehire to a different position (helitack crew, etc...) in the federal govt (or even on the same forest).

L -- C -- E -- S

"EVEN those with rehire rights as temporary employees will need to re-apply for
their jobs -- may need to reapply and compete for their temporary jobs."

I certainly hope that is not the truth, what a mess. I can hear it now "You did a great job last year....we would love to have you back next season. Providing that you deal with that whole heap of paper work all over again and we aren't forced to give your 5th year seasonal job to a brand new apprentice that we picked up at the mall last month." Come on. Give us 1039s a break!

-oohello

Wow, I always thought Creedence sang, "There's a bathroom on the right" and
I never got what that mattered... The lyrics show it's really "There's a bad moon
on the rise."

Firefighters, I learn some of the strangest things as a spin off from this website...

Mellie

No, there will still be rehire eligibility. I asked our FCRO and he
said that on a conference call it was discussed and it will still be in
place. And please, don't say rehire rights when talking to temps.
No one, not even permanents who are going for reinstatement have
rights. It's always eligibility.

Lori

I have no knowledge of the truth of this message. Readers, verification? Ab.

Lobotomy, I understand your frustration, but let's let the process work a bit longer. If it comes up short, the facts exist. Whenever people, including foresters at the RO, really get into the retention issues, they find it more complex than they thought it would be and hopefully they find some un-thought-of approaches to be possible solutions. As for who attended when, often more creative solutions come out of meetings not attended by the big bosses. People closer to the ground may be more likely to step up to true brainstorming and then, leadership, as I think has occurred in this case.

That said, the CalFire hiring clock is ticking closer to offers... Remember ...
"All fuels get treated eventually -- one way or another." wlf.com/quotes.htm . Ab.

Here is one quote from the letter:

"The draft will be finished by Wednesday of next week (December 26th). I anticipate being able to release details of the strategy once the Regional Forester Team has been briefed. Following that, the Regional Forester Team will be working with leadership in the Chief's office to gain support for and implement the recommended actions we will be taking forward."

Today (01/08/2008), the Regional Forester Team was finally briefed.

I'd expect something soon...... Fingers crossed.

Noname

"At this point the FAM staff and Jim Pena are still trying to make sure
that numbers are correct and that the statistics are consistently comparing
"apples to apples" for resignations and workforce numbers. They thought
they would be ready to present the document to the RF yesterday, but
getting consistent numbers has been more difficult than they thought and
the RF has been tied up with other regional issues. Currently, the plan is
for the RF to review the retention recommendations either Wednesday or
Thursday. Following his review and approval, we'll finalize the
communications plan. Sorry this is taking so long, but the more they get
into the details surrounding the retention issue, the more complicated it
has gotten. Because they recognize how much scrutiny the final set of
recommendations is going to get, they are most concerned with making the
document as accurate as possible, rather than completing it as quickly as
possible." - snip

Congratulations to Dave Conklin on his promotion to the Angeles Fire and Aviation Management Officer (Fire Chief) position !!!!! He was offered and accepted the job today. His effective date is January 20. Dave is currently the District Fire Management Officer on the Santa Clara Mojave River District on the Angeles. Please help us welcome and congratulate Dave on his new assignment.

This is a milestone for us to have all of our Forest level fire overhead positions permanently filled. Thanks to all who have helped carry the workload while these positions were vacant. And a very special thank you to Don Garwood..... Jody

www.helenair.com/articles/2008/01/08/state/a010108_04.txt

Hundekot

The 2008 Red Book is on the web at:

www.nifc.gov/policies/red_book.htm

and

www.nifc.gov/red_book.htm

roadrunner

I like the song too. Since I didn't know the words, I googled them:

www.creedence-online.net/lyrics/bad_moon_rising.php

Rod

1. I don't want my engine delivered this way. It would take 2 years to get a replacement.
2. I can just hear that paratrooper in the last clip screaming: "Who put that #*!!#@# pick-up in my landing zone!!"

AK Old Timer

Thanks AK Old Timer. What a gut buster... Hard to imagine an incident within an incident like those. It feels good to laugh. Ab.

The ICE word is circulating. Ab.

Hank Kashdan said,

"Any large scale "outsourcing" is clearly off the table, as well as even thinking about competing an activity between an employee group and an outside contractor. It is possible we might look at the potential for some very limited outsourcing truly for efficiency sake, but that would be highly "micro" in nature and would require some extensive external dialog."

It is pretty simple...... "No funds" appropriated under discretionary and mandatory appropriations are to be used for even the smallest A-76 comparisons..... even ONE position, or several positions even in informal discussions.

You lost the ability to "...look at the potential for some very limited outsourcing truly for efficiency." Congress took it away.

"None of the funds made available by this or any other Act may be used in fiscal year 2008 for competitive sourcing studies and any related activities involving Forest Service personnel."

/s/ Gotta Love When The System Works as Designed (1787)

Balance of Power

• Covering news and trends about the organization and management of the executive branch;
• Helping federal executives improve the quality of their agencies' services by reporting on management innovations;
• Explaining government problems and failures in ways that offer lessons about pitfalls to avoid;
• Creating a greater sense of community along the elite corps of public servants to whom the magazine circulates;
• Educating our non-government readers about the challenges federal officials confront.

Re Type 1 crew: The state's inmates may never leave the boundaries of this state without the receiving state having signed a formal reciprocal agreement. To date Nevada and Oregon are the only states to have done so. So the Type 1 crew point is a moot one.

I’m really looking forward to hearing from you. You are paying your dues, so you should be brought up to speed about the functions of the organization who pays you monthly. I’ll even be glad to take you over to the CDCR HQ so you can meet the Captain who supervises all of the CDCR activities, like the Camps which are all based out of an Institution somewhere here in the state.

Normbc9

Mellie

To follow up on Casey’s post of 12/18/07, NFFE has been working with the Forest Service and Congress on the issues of Professional Liability Insurance reimbursement.

PLI Reimbursement for Federal Firefighters
December 27, 2007 Legislative Update

For years, law enforcement officers and agency supervisors have been eligible for 50% reimbursement for personal liability insurance (PLI). One of NFFE’s priorities for the FY2008 legislative cycle was extension of this benefit to firefighting personnel who, as recent experience has made all too clear, have significant liability exposure as well.

The Senate Appropriations Committee reported out language in the FY 2008 Interior appropriations bill that would have extended the PLI reimbursement benefit to some, but not all, fire line supervisors. This language would have modified the law pertaining to PLI reimbursement to read as follows (proposed changes are in blue):

SEC. 636. REIMBURSEMENTS RELATING TO PROFESSIONAL LIABILITY INSURANCE.—

(a) AUTHORITY.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law, amounts appropriated by this Act (or any other Act for fiscal year 1997 or any fiscal year thereafter) for salaries and expenses shall be used to reimburse any qualified employee for not to exceed one-half the costs incurred by such employee for professional liability insurance. A payment under this section shall be contingent upon the submission of such information or documentation as the employing agency may require.

(b) QUALIFIED EMPLOYEE.—For purposes of this section, the term ‘‘qualified employee’’ means an agency employee whose position is that of—
(1) a law enforcement officer;
(2) a supervisor or management official; or
(3) a temporary fire line supervisor.

(c) DEFINITIONS.—For purposes of this section—
(1) * * * * * * * * * *
(4) the term ‘‘professional liability insurance’’ means insurance which provides coverage for—

(A) legal liability for damages due to injuries to other persons, damage to their property, or other damage or loss to such other persons (including the expenses of litigation and settlement) resulting from or arising out of any tortuous act, error, or omission of the covered individual (whether common law, statutory, or constitutional) while in the performance of such individual’s official duties as a qualified employee; and
(B) the cost of legal representation for the covered individual in connection with any administrative or judicial proceeding) relating to any act, error, or omission of the covered individual while in the performance of such individual’s official duties as a qualified employee, and other legal costs and fees relating to any such administrative or judicial proceeding; and

(5) the term ‘‘temporary fire line supervisor’’ means an employee of the Department of the Interior or the Forest Service, the duties of which include temporary supervision to manage a wildland or managed fire, including an employee that is—

(A) a type 1, 2, or 3 incident commander;
(B) an operations section chief;
(C) a division group supervisor;
(D) a fire use manager; or
(E) a prescribed fire manager or burn boss.

We felt this language unfairly excluded positions with significant liability exposure. For example, it seemed to imply that single resource bosses, squad bosses, and a number of other positions would not be covered. We contacted Congressional staff to express our concerns, and were advised to work with the agency to develop a consensus on how the language should be modified. After much back and forth with Legislative Affairs, Human Resources, Fire Officials, Department lawyers, the Whitehouse Office of Management and Budget, and Congressional appropriations staff, we were successful in expanding the coverage significantly. It is no longer limited just to upper-level fire-line supervisors, but now extends to temporary fire line managers, defined in broad terms as:

an employee of the Forest Service or the Department of the Interior, whose duties include, as determined by the employing agency -

(A) temporary supervision or management of personnel engaged in wildland or managed fire activities;

(i) a type 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 incident commander;
(ii) an operations section chief,
(iii) a division group supervisor,
(iv) a fire use manager,
(v) a prescribed fire manager or burn boss,
(vi) a single resource boss, or
(vii) a squad boss

(B) providing analysis or information that affects a decision by a supervisor or manager about a wildland or managed fire; or

(i) a fire behavior analyst,
(ii) a safety officer, or
(iii) a long term analyst

(C) directing the deployment of equipment for a wildland or managed fire.

[Note: Statutory language is in blue. The examples of covered positions are given in the Report that accompanies the statute and gives guidance on its implementation. Report language is in green.]

This provision is in the FY 2008 omnibus appropriations bill, which the president signed into law on Dec. 26, 2007. NFFE will continue to work with the agency and Congress to ensure that implementation of this PLI provision is consistent with the intent.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

I replaced the link on the Links page under states. Anyone else have an update on your State's fire links, please let me know. I'll update it on the page. Ab.

• One, I get offered a job as an FAE or FF2-DO.
• Two, I get to tell the state, "Thank you for you consideration. The USFS however,
  has decided they want to retain me. I appreciate your offer."

...Planning on leaving, hoping on staying...

R-5 Squadleader

There should be some kind of word out from the R5 Forester or Deputy Forester soon if they adhere to what they promised.
Rumor has it that CalFire is getting closer to hiring. Guess that's expected, eh? Sounds like they have many captains' positions to fill to be at an acceptable (legal) level of staffing. Ab.

ICE campaign "In Case of Emergency"

We all carry our mobile phones with names & numbers stored in its memory but nobody, other than ourselves, knows which of these numbers belong to our closest family or friends.

If we were to be involved in an accident or were taken ill, the people attending us would have our mobile phone but wouldn't know who to call. Yes, there are hundreds of numbers stored but which one is the contact person in case of an emergency? Hence this " ICE" (In Case of Emergency)Campaign

The concept of "ICE" is catching on quickly. It is a method of contact during emergency situations. As cell phones are carried by the majority of the population, all you need to do is store the number of a contact person or persons who should be contacted during emergency under the name "ICE" (In Case Of Emergency).

The idea was thought up by a paramedic who found that when he went to the scenes of accidents, there were always mobile phones with patients, but they didn't know which number to call. He therefore thought that it would be a good idea if there was a nationally recognized name for this purpose. In an emergency situation, Emergency Service personnel and hospital Staff would be able to quickly contact the right person by simply dialing the number you have stored as "ICE".

Please forward this. It won't take too many "forwards" before everybody will know about this . It really could save your life, or put a loved one's mind at rest.

All,

We're getting many questions something like this: "Is it true
Competitive Sourcing is prohibited for the Forest Service in the Omnibus
Appropriations Bill? What do we do with our current ongoing studies?"

This is a heads up while Ron Ketter's staff is preparing a memo that
clarifies where we are at. That letter should come out in a few days.

Basically, we are done with competitive sourcing in the Forest Service for
FY 2008. This is a result of the Omnibus Appropriations Act that funds the
Forest Service through 9/30/08. We are inventorying what activities the
employees who have been assigned to competitive sourcing duties are
performing. We will discontinue any and all of these activities.

Regarding the current ongoing Feasibility Studies: A lot of work has gone
into looking at these functions. We need to continue with an effort that
looks at how to improve efficiency, but none of that look will involve the
study of options leading to or associated with "public-private competition"
as required under A-76. Any large scale "outsourcing" is clearly off the
table, as well as even thinking about competing an activity between an
employee group and an outside contractor. It is possible we might look at
the potential for some very limited outsourcing truly for efficiency sake,
but that would be highly "micro" in nature and would require some extensive
external dialog.

Stay tuned for more.

Hank Kashdan
Deputy Chief, Business Operations, USFS

idyllwild-town-crier-retention.pdf (35K pdf file)

It should be on their website sometime soon.

SoCal noname

Readers, this morning I linked to the first two files in the 2008 doc files folder on the server. Looking back through the 2007 files was memorable for me. This community sent in some amazing documents, research, reports, maps and commentaries in 2007. Some were attachments that were circulating on the fed agency webs, others were from CalFire or other sources. Some were notes from meetings or compilations of data that inform all of us. Some were communications that we held or hold for later when the moment is right to share them. Thanks to All, including the un-named, who contribute so we can all be better informed. Ab.

"CDF has about 200 type 1 crews in camps in California. While not fighting fires they work for various local, state, and federal agencies doing everything imaginable. Before anyone gets upset they are type 1 crews, check the National Mobilization Guide."

Chapter 60, section 62.1: www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Type_1_Crews.pdf references a list of 89 type 1 crews which are recognized as such by the National Interagency Mobilization guide

Chapter 60, section 62.2, of the mobilization guide: www.nifc.gov/nicc/mobguide/Chapter60.pdf

A type 1 crew must be able to break up into squads. They must also have an assistant supt/foreman and 3 squad leaders. They must also have a minimum of 5 programmable radios. They are comprised of between 18 and 20 firefighters. Obviously, there are more requirements, such as specific qualifications for the overhead positions, but these are the ones that I know contradict the statement above.

A type 2 IA crew must be able to break up into squads as well, and must have a minimum of 4 programmable radios, and 18 - 20 firefighters. Type 2 and type 3 crews do not require breaking up into squads, but they do require the same numbers, as well as the communications capability.

I could not find the section in the mobe guide which refers to accepting other agency and/or cooperator qualifications, so i am not sure if that is what the original reference was aimed at. But i do know that the non federal type 1 crews listed in the mobe guide all adhere to the minimum crew standards for type 1 crews.

L-- C -- E -- S

I worked hand crews a few years ago, 1970s. My first crew had seven inmates in for murder. Having said that, it was one of the best crews I had in my eight years in camp. They were convicts, not inmates. They had a lot of time to do and just wanted to do it the easiest way they could. I checked into their records and found out that they were all crimes of "passion".

I sat on the classification committee at a prison and saw that the inmates going through were getting more violent, and not fit for camp. When the possibility of violence started on the crews, I left the program.

I do not know the present situation in the camps as I retired 15 years ago, however I would not be surprised if tighter screening is now in place.

Cal Fire Mossback

No sympathy here, but here's an easy find... Search wlf.com on "common denominators" using the search button in the header. When you get to the archive page, simultaneously hold down the Ctrl button and the F button and enter "common denominators". You'll skip down to the description. Good luck. Ab.

The numbers tell the story.

no name

Ab,

A 995 motion is a standard motion to dismiss a complaint or charge. It happens frequently in criminal trials.

Notice the court received ex parte letters in June and Aug.

but just prior to the Dec 14 hearing, but only recently on line

12/14/2007 FILED: CORRESPONDENCE FROM 12/11/07 (CONFIDENTIAL).
12/13/2007 FILED: NTC OF TRANS FILED BY H.K. BOWDEN
12/13/2007 FILED: NTC OF TRANS FILED BY C. DI CARO

the following appeared on Dec. 26
the closed hearing is postponed and may or may not be rescheduled

HONORABLE JEFFERY J. PREVOST PRESIDING.
COURTROOM ASSISTANT: LW-L. WALKER
COURT REPORTER: NONE
PEOPLE REPRESENTED BY DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY MICHAEL HESTRIN (NOT PRESENT).
DEFENDANT REPRESENTED BY PVT-MARK MCDONALD (NOT PRESENT).
DEFENDANT NOT PRESENT IN COURT.

AT 13:30, THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD:
ON THE COURTS OWN MOTION THE HEARING DATE SET
FOR JANUARY 25 2008 IS ORDERED VACATED AND SHALL
NOT BE RESET AT THIS TIME. THE HEARING MAY BE
SUBJECT TO BEING REINSTATED ON CALENDAR ON THE
COURTS OWN MOTION NO LESS THAN TEN (10)
CALENDAR DAYS NOTICE TO BOTH PARTIES.
HEARING ON 01/25/2008 AT 8:30 FOR HS IS VACATED.
HEARING ON 02/22/2008 AT 8:30 FOR HM IN DEPT. 32 IS CONFIRMED.
MINUTE ORDER MAILED TO BOTH PARTIES.
DEFENDANT ORDERED TO RETURN ON ANY AND ALL FUTURE HEARING DATES.
BAIL TO REMAIN AS FIXED.
REMAINS REMANDED TO CUSTODY OF RIVERSIDE SHERIFF

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This brief article was published in the Idyllwild Town Crier on 12/20.

12/20/07 on page 2
Oyler 3

By J.P. Crumrine
Assistant Editor

Raymond Lee Oyler, accused of starting the Esperanza Fire that killed five U.S. Forest Service firefighters, had a day in court, Friday, Dec. 14. As expected, his trial was not ready to begin.

Unexpectedly, Judge Jeffery Prevost decided to close the next court date, Jan. 25, 2008. On Friday, the prosecutor, Michael Hestrin, and defense attorney, Mark McDonald, met with Judge Prevost in chambers, but the Judge sealed the transcript of that meeting.

Records indicate that correspondence pertaining to the case was filed with the court on Dec. 11, prior to Friday’s hearing. This document is labeled confidential.

Following the closed hearing in January, the judge set Feb. 22, 2008 as the date to listen to a motion to dismiss the indictment on procedural grounds. If this motion were upheld, new charges could be refilled against Oyler or the court could let the prosecutor correct the error.

The trial would resume on March 21.

McDonald, Oyler’s lawyer, did not respond to questions prior to Friday’s court date.

J.P. Crumrine can be reached at jp@towncrier.com.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Hmmmm, interesting. Also, check out the article about approval of the new subdivision in a "chimney". This is part of the interface problem as JP Crumrine's article suggests. Ab.

From a program allowed by the laws of California, there is a program called "Open Access" that allows folks to follow cases.

Being frustrated with the information coming out on trial of Raymond Lee Oyler and the recent ruling of the judge to seal records and exclude the public, and the recent decisions to exclude the press, the public, and those interested in the actual trial, I used "Open Access" to look at the case status. IT APPEARS the press doesn't know about the program or the case status.

12/14/2007 COURT ORDERS TRANSCRIPT OF IN-CHAMBERS HEARING SEALED. COURT FINDS GOOD CAUSE EXISTS FOR CONTINUING TRIAL.

You can seal the record, but you can't seal the future dates in the trial.

OBVIOUSLY, Mr. Oyler's attorney and the press didn't catch this.... a 995 PC Motion

On 02/22/2008 : HEARING ON MOTION RE: 995 PC MOTION

995.
(a) Subject to subdivision (b) of Section 995a, the indictment or information shall be set aside by the court in which the defendant is arraigned, upon his or her motion, in either of the following cases:

• (1) If it is an indictment:
  • (A) Where it is not found, endorsed, and presented as prescribed in this code.
  • (B) That the defendant has been indicted without reasonable or probable cause.

• (2) If it is an information:
  • (A) That before the filing thereof the defendant had not been legally committed by a magistrate.
  • (B) That the defendant had been committed without reasonable or probable cause.

(b) In cases in which the procedure set out in subdivision (b) of Section 995a is utilized, the court shall reserve a final ruling on the motion until those procedures have been completed.

995a.
(a) If the names of the witnesses examined before the grand jury are not inserted at the foot of the indictment or indorsed thereon, the court shall order them to be so inserted or indorsed; and if the information be not subscribed by the district attorney, the court may order it to be so subscribed.

(b)

• (1) Without setting aside the information, the court may, upon motion of the prosecuting attorney, order further proceedings to correct errors alleged by the defendant if the court finds that such errors are minor errors of omission, ambiguity, or technical defect which can be expeditiously cured or corrected without a rehearing of a substantial portion of the evidence. The court may remand the cause to the committing magistrate for further proceedings, or if the parties and the court agree, the court may itself sit as a magistrate and conduct further proceedings. When remanding the cause to the committing magistrate, the court shall state in its remand order which minor errors it finds could be expeditiously cured or
  corrected.
• (2) Any further proceedings conducted pursuant to this subdivision may include the taking of testimony and shall be deemed to be a part of the preliminary examination.
• (3) The procedure specified in this subdivision may be utilized only once for each information filed. Any further proceedings conducted pursuant to this subdivision shall not be deemed to extend the time within which a defendant must be brought to trial under Section 1382.

I don't understand what this means given that the records are sealed and the public excluded. I googled 995 PC Motion. It's a request made by a defendant to dismiss a count of information. We don't know if the "count of information" is a report, testimony, or something else. Presumably if it's not dismissal of his lawyer, his lawyer would have filed it... Don't know what this means in this context. Lobotomy or any Legal Beagle reading, what do you think this means? Ab.

In our Abs' families they will always be digger pine... too much ranch and gold mining history over the generations to call them otherwise no matter how PC things are elsewhere. Grandpa always told the young'uns with pride that they were named after him. Ab.

Signed,

The deadline is Jan 8th, keep the chatter HIGH !

LL

Won't be fixed until tomorrow at the earliest.

Everything's working where I am at the moment. Good there's two of us. Ab.

I'll make a list. Send 'em in. Ab.

Chief Van Gerwen is a top hand in my book. They couldn't have found a more
articulate and knowledgeable person for this task. Norm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:03 AM
Subject: Announcement from Deputy Director Michael Jarvis

Paul Van Gerwen has been named to the position of CAL FIRE Battalion
Chief/Public Information Officer for the three units adjoining the San
Francisco Bay Area effective January 2, 2007. Chief Van Gerwen will be
working with Bay Area media and highlighting CAL FIRE's focus on a proactive
and preventative approach to wildfire threats, including a commitment to
strong management of fire prevention and natural resources. Chief Van Gerwen
will also inform the public of CAL FIRE's role as a diverse all risk fire
agency providing world class emergency response during disasters. Chief Van
Gerwen will work directly with the Unit Chiefs and staff of the San
Mateo-Santa Cruz, Santa Clara and Sonoma-Lake-Napa administrative units of
CAL FIRE. The position was created by re-assigning a Sacramento
administrative position from the Communications office to the field. Van
Gerwen will be based at the Santa Clara Unit's Almaden fire station. A
26-year veteran of the fire service, Chief Van Gerwen brings a well-rounded
depth of experience to this position including 16 years as a fire captain
with CAL FIRE's San Luis Obispo Unit. He has experience in both wildland and
municipal assignments as an engine company officer, fire crew supervisor,
peace officer and serious accident team investigator.

Mike Jarvis
Deputy Director for Communications

www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/fatalities/statistics/ff_stats.shtm

07CostliestFiresYTD121807.doc (57K doc file)

fireuseman

OA has turned on the wildlandfire.com scanner as of January 3 2008 @ 0815 for the Northern CA weather event.

www.wildlandfire.com/scan/

For those inquiring and for those who want to follow what's going on in the Sierra via scanner, happy listening. Some Sierra areas could get a foot to a number of feet of snow in a very short time period.

Be safe.

Ab.

I was just wondering what ever was the outcome for the Monterey
Hotshots and the ordeal they had to go through to go to a fellow
firefighter's funeral ?

Did anyone ever pursue the so called overhead that wouldn't let
them go ?

Did anyone ever find out who this "overhead" was that has no heart ?
I'm sorry if this has been brought up this past month, but right after
the season ended i went to Europe for vacation so i hadn't seen the
outcome. I hope someone got their punishment for this !!!!

I hope this doesn't ever happen to a crew again !

Also does anyone know how to get ahold of Jimmy H or Tony V,
they are both members of Monterey Hotshots, i would like to talk
to them about the incident.

Swamp This

Try the FS lookup utility. There's a link to it on the links page under fed. Ab.

"We should contact every public official there is and demand the U.S. Forest Service utilize the DC- 10 in the beginning of the fires that turn into holocausts we endure and further investigate the U.S. Forest Service officials for defacto serial arson and murder for profit spanning over a decade."

"Meanwhile we should urge the Cal-Fire state agency to bring back into service the Boeing-747 Supertanker aircraft that the U.S. Forest Service also refuses to use. It carries 24,000 gallons of retardant which is twice the load of the DC- 10. See www.JBS.org (search: wildfire) and call every public official to stop this domestic terrorism by fire by our own U.S. Forest Service." ~~ Ed Nemech*k

Tanker 910 Quick Info:

1. Omni Air International, in coordination with Cargo Conversions LLC created the DC-10 airtanker program. They utilized modified tanks provided by Erickson Air Crane. The company is known as 10 Tanker Air Carrier.
2. While the Sawtooth Fire (CA-BDU) was burning in California, then Victorville Mayor Mike Rothschild contacted California State Senator George Runner (R-17th District) for assistance to find out why T-910 hadn't been approved as an airtanker in the State of California. http://www.ci.victorville.ca.us/news/06_stories/07-18_tanker.html
3. Senator Runner then contacted the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE) and an expedited approval was obtained in a few days.
4. Ed Nem*ch*k (Landers, CA - Victorville, CA - ) and Larry Hambl*n (Hesperia, CA) have been strong vocal activists for the contracting of "Supertankers" and both sent OpEds and contributions to main stories nationwide and overseas for the last several years. As part of their activism, they have incorrectly stated many facts and figures about airtankers or their use on wildfires.
5. CAL FIRE provided one of the most lucrative contracts ever for a single airtanker that didn't undergo proper testing or approval.

Some of the statements being sent across the nation to both the public and elected officials:

"I think it's obscenely evil that the U.S. Forest Service is still deliberately refusing to use DC-10 and 747 type Supertankers to stop wildfires (for more than 12 years), fires that have reportedly destroyed over 30,000 homes and scores of human lives over this time. This apparent scorched earth policy of the U.S. Forest Service for over a decade, see: JBS. org (search: wildfire) must be stopped and the officials prosecuted." ~~ Larry Hambl*n

"The ongoing problem however is the refusal of the U.S. Forest Service to allow Supertanker aircraft to stop fires on federal land causing our tragic local and national holocausts. We must encourage Gov. Schwarzenegger in this courageous effort and demand congress force the U.S. Forest Service to utilize Supertanker fire fighting aircraft and quit mismanaging our forests to cause wildfires as reported at www.JBS.org (search: wildfire)."

"It is estimated that as little as six Supertankers can solve the uncontrolled wildfire problem in America but we have to get the Forest Service out of the way to do it. We should abolish the Forest Service, locally privatize that activity, and prosecute the officials who have burned our forests, homes, and families for over a decade."~~ Ed Nem*ch*k

"10 Tanker Air Carrier is a private company that has developed the 10 Super Tanker without any government funding.  The Company will grow its fleet of DC 10 Super Tankers to accommodate the requirements of local, state and federal, fire fighting agencies world wide." ~~ 10 Tanker Air Carrier http://www.10tanker.com/

Follow the Money: John Birch Society

"Hi : I'm Ed Nem*ch*k (local John Birch Society member and Ron Paul supporter) and I wanted to mention that we're having our monthly meeting at Mc Donalds' resteraunt conferance room on Bear Valley Road (accross from Target store, west of Apple Valley Road) Saturday, Jan. 5, 2008 at 10:30 AM . I wish to invite everyone to attend the free video presentation, literature and action opportunities. Through our efforts a great new day is dawning on America! Call Ed Nem*ch*k-760-<***-8059-for more info."

/s/ Lobotomy

Look, L, it's pretty clear he's anti-govt and has been for years. No one I know takes his political extremism seriously just as no one takes the Bircher 101 sign in Willits seriously. I would venture to say that if the DC-10 folks really knew his reputation and what he's about, they'd probably be a embarrassed by his advocacy, misspellings and all. I would be. Ab.

A deadly bushfire that has torn through the Goldfields and killed three truck drivers who were trapped by flames on Great Eastern Highway is still raging, with forecast extreme temperatures making the task even harder for firefighters.

More than 130 firefighters from the Fire and Emergency Services Authority, Department of Environment and Conservation, the Forest Products Commission and volunteer brigades from the shires of Coolgardie and Yilgarn are still fighting the bushfire that has torn through the Boorabbin National Park. (click the link for story, map and pics)

An account has been set up for Joe Cray (pic of Joe), long time employee of Walker Range Fire Patrol Association, for his liver transplant. Joe has liver damage resulting from Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis (PSC) is an uncommon chronic liver disease in which the bile ducts inside and outside the liver progressively narrow due to inflammation and scarring. He has been accepted for the donor list as of December 27, 2007. This account is to help Joe pay for his doctor bills and expenses due to the liver transplant.

The account is located at any South Valley Bank & Trust. Please make the donations payable to Joe Cray Liver Transplant Fund in care of South Valley Bank & Trust. Donations may be dropped off at any branch or mailed to the Joe Cray Liver Transplant Fund, South Valley Bank & Trust - Gilchrist Branch - P.O. Box 831, Gilchrist, Oregon 97737.
Thank You, Walker Range Fire Patrol Association

Our best to him for a fast recovery. Ab.

I snipped the number. Google it if you want to call him. Ab.

Oh, OK, that one, the self-appointed authority on leaf blowers, not a race car driver. Lobotomy, I don't think you need to worry; who cares what he says, and yeah, I know he's never been a hero of yours... Sorry 'bout that. Ab.

I haven't heard of him. If anyone wants to look him up, replace the * with an e.

Ah, Lobotomy, is he just a race car driver or someone else? What does he know? Well, if the race car driver, how to go f-a-s-t. Or is he someone else? Ab.

Subject: Changing of the Guard Angeles National Forest

R5 FAM-

John Thomas will be at the helm of the Forest until a Chief can be
selected. Add him to your mailing lists and give him access to the BOD
Agenda site and the Agreements FTP site. I expect John to attend
the BOD meetings and Monday AM conference calls with his characteristic
energy, straight talk and common sense approach. I am leaving the Forest in
excellent hands.

I started attending the Fire BOD meetings ten or more years ago. Cruz may
have been the director. It was a lively group. I felt like the outsider
among the likes of Kohut, Myall, Hatcher, Swanson, Bacon, Capplinger and
others whose names elude me. I noticed over the years the group got more
cohesive. There wasn't as much open conflict. Egos didn't enter the room
before the person did quite as often. But there are lessons to be learned
from conflict.

Anyway now I am the old goat I complained about. Remember the "FFMO" group
had and has the purpose of keeping the Regional Office folks in touch with
where the service to land and people takes place, the tip of the sword so
to speak. Don't loose sight of that. I hope to see more of all of you in
the future so I won't say good-bye.

Many of you have been wonderful help to me over the years. I have learned
so much from so many I can not express it here. Many of you were
inspirations, provided encouragement and mentored my career and did not
know it. The Angeles has benefited from your advise and counsel. Thank you
all.

Don Garwood
Chief Fire & Aviation Management
USDA Forest Service
Angeles National Forest

Best Wishes to Don Garwood in his retirement. Ab.

Brush removal was brushed off
For a long time, city officials knew uncleared land was a huge fire hazard
www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/watchdog/20071230-9999-1n30brush.html

Fire threat and brush clearance map for San Diego area (3,152 K pdf file)

Thanks for sharing the article on FS granting access to private lands.
Key question of "Who Pays?" is appropriate.

Assuming the public wants and demands....

• Protection from fire
• Response to vehicle accidents
• Search and Rescue
• Animal control
• Medical emergency response
• Air medivac
• Domestic violence response
• Universal health care

Who pays? Some would like to have the "deep pockets" neighbor (FS)
to pay for all services. Gee, that would make it Free??? Hardly.

In most of the real world, those who want services are charged with paying
for them.

• Private companies or locally financed ambulance services supply medical
  response.
• VFDs, counties or cities provide structural home protection.
• County sheriff's or other agencies do S&R and animal control.
• Subdivisions should have a negotiated fire protection plan (and financed via
  local property taxes).
• The days of a federal agency spending thousands of dollars per private home
  (wrapping) are probably coming to an end.

It's time for folks to be willing to tax themselves for services they "demand".

Old Fire Guy (ret)

Ab comment: OFG, Good points and a good way to think about mission and vision. Should we add in

• protection from hurricane,
• protection from tornado,
• protection from earthquake,
• protection from landslide,
• protection from flooding,
• protection from terrorist attack?

Good morning.
Happy New Year.
Have we told you lately how much we like our jobs?
What a great wildland fire community.
Here's to 2008!

The Abs.