"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
January, 2008
Home of the Wildland
Firefighter
| DATE |
|
| 1/31 |
Clarification on lights & sirens memo:
To all:
The text of the memo posted here on TheySaid with respect to: Emergency code
3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake.
It is an apparently convoluted issue however recently a directive came out
of the WO on the subject which a number of folks, including safety officers,
felt was too restrictive. A revised directive was offered to the WO and
accepted. However for some reason, the powers that be at the WO sent out the
more restrictive version.
What has been posted here is an interim directive until the mess with the WO
can be corrected. According to those involved, they expect it will take
until spring to do so. Several NoCal forests were tasked with putting
together an interim directive and they apparently based the directive on
their call volume. As a result, the intent was to have vehicles respond
without lights or sirens until the matter could be resolved with the WO in
the Spring.
Naturally my question to them was how this region-wide interim directive
would be received by the SoCal forests that have a significantly higher call
volume.
So, for the time being anyway, the interim directive everyone is posting
about was not intended to include the " code 2" reference.
Likely I have confused the issue even more. Sorry.
CaseyI'll go back add add a note to each of the Code 2 posts... Sure
was fun while it lasted... Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Casey and others'
This is a section from the California Vehicle Code, and as you see,
light(s) and siren.
Authorized Emergency Vehicles
21806. Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle which
is sounding a siren and which has at least one lighted lamp exhibiting red
light that is visible, under normal atmospheric conditions, from a distance
of 1,000 feet to the front of the vehicle, the surrounding traffic shall,
except as otherwise directed by a traffic officer....
lighting up the subject.Some great monikers. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Running with red lights and sirens may mean the difference between catching a
fire in initial attack or having a fire escape and becoming a major fire.
The use of red lights and siren is a tool in the tool box, to be used as
needed. Having spent a good part of my career in SOCAL, I know that judgment
is needed in making a determination about whether to respond code 3 or not.
Personally I am bothered that this tool is being removed from our tool box.
We hear a lot about cost containment, yet we have imposed on us, these new
policies that contradict common sense and good judgment, and potentially
will cause more fires to escape initial attack and become major fires
costing literally thousands, if not millions of more dollars of taxpayer
money to contain.
I would ask the decision-makers why has this tool been taken away from us?
Certainly if one were to examine accidents and accident frequency rates
caused by responding with red lights and siren, they would find that we
(collectively) have an excellent safety record.
Again I ask what happened to common sense and good judgment?
Stone BoatHAW HAW haw... on the moniker... Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Ahhh,
The joys of not having to be on call (uncompensated) for a minimum of two
nights per week.... and not having to be tied to the "green anchor".
Good decision Mr. Regional Forester (tongue in cheek). Should our dispatch
center forward our night calls to you?
Rogue Rivers |
| 1/31 |
Inquiring law student PB - sorry for the delay in responding,
but I was out enjoying blowing snow and sub-zero temps
for a few days!Do a Google search for "Backfire2000" and you'll get the
court
document that has all of the Judge's rulings and comments.
Hundekot
No worries, two contributors wrote in with the info. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Casey,
Thanks a bunch for keeping us all abreast of what is transpiring. I
whole-heartedly agree with your last post. Your comments, and my perception
of what's happening in today's world, have led me to conclude that much of
the staff and non-militia folks are all in it for themselves. Seems as
though the outfit(s) are crumbling due to lack of communication, lack of
teamwork, and lack of leadership. By teamwork, I mean the FS as a whole. It
ain't there, and please, someone challenge me on that one. Teamwork within
the fire organization still stands out, but the rest of them could give a
(snip). A&FM, hold yourselves together, play and work as team, lead your
people, and you will achieve production and satisfaction!
-Picker-
Thanks for snipping your own "bad" word. Good one. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
RE: the lights and siren letter..... .....Once the forest fire staff has an
opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.
Isn't that the problem?
Peace |
| 1/31 |
Code 1, 2 & 3 In California, the vehicle code essentially says code 3 is
lights AND sirens.
Code 2 is an old term to go to a call/assignment directy, but WITHOUT
the use of lights and sirens, following all traffic laws. Obviously on a
response at 2 a.m., the lights are going but common sense kicks in when
to to use the noise maker. Same as going to calls on the freeway etc.
Any questions though in Ca., CHP would be glad to help I'm sure.
Former Green Soldier.
Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2"
was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Code 1, 2 & 3
Although different agencies have different ways that they use "Codes",
here is the way that I learned them and the way that most agencies
utilize them.
- Code 1 - Available on the air (driving in a patrol type status)
- Code 2 - Respond directly (no lights or siren)
- Code 3 - Respond Immediately (lights and siren)
- Code 4 - All clear (the scene has been secured and is safe)
I have worked in three states (including CA) and this seems to be the
common use.
COS622 |
| 1/31 |
Come on folks, regardless of the Code 3, Code 2, Code 1 stuff, I think the
intent of the letter is clear. Do not operate the emergency lights & sirens
on vehicles until we sure we're meeting the new direction contained in the
FS Manual.At least thats what this Forest and several others are doing.
TC |
| 1/31 |
Lights & sirens & stuff:
Someone out there PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but in California there is
NO
code 2 for fire. There is code 2 (lights, no sirens) only for law
enforcement and in
some cases ambulances so as not to further antagonize certain patients.
So as I understand it a FS rig cannot operate (as in moving) in Code 2
(lights, no
siren) and neither can any other fire rig in the state.
If responding to an emergency, lights and sirens are used...code 3. Once on
the scene
a fire apparatus can shut down their siren but leave their lights on.
Additionally while I'm not sure it is codified in the CA vehicle codes, it
is always a
good practice that when you are in traffic on an emergency response and come
to a
stop light behind said traffic and there is no way to proceed until the flow
of traffic
ahead of you starts moving, shut down lights & sirens. For years it has been
known
that a motorist sitting at a red light with an emergency vehicle behind them
blaring their
siren & running their lights predisposes motorists to risk accidents by
moving into
intersections against red lights etc., because the panic for them is
overwhelming.
I don't know the legality of running "code 2" while on a National Forest"
but I do know
that the same vehicle laws apply on DoD (Department of Defense) federal
facilities as
they do on CA streets...No code 2 for fire, only law enforcement.
Hopefully someone in the RO has researched this issue before making such a
directive.
CaseyIs this a hint they're shifting FIRE into LE & I??? (tongue in
cheek) Ab.
Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2"
was included by mistake. See Casey's next post. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
I have a couple of questions regarding the following statement from the
"Use of emergency lights and sirens" directive -
"Employees shall not use emergency lights and sirens while the
vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code three
responses shall be conducted as code two."
Please correct me if I'm wrong because I may very well be, but isn't a
Code 2 response illegal. Is it not Code 1, Code 3, or no Code?
If not, wouldn't a Code 2 response be considered as using the
emergency lights while the vehicle is in motion anyway?
If not illegal, then would it not be reasonable to assume that responding
Code 2 would be more unsafe than responding Code 3? Considering
that you're taking away an extra warning device alerting other vehicles
to your presence, your objective, I would think that it would be much
less safe.
Just Curious.....
Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2"
was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
My fire department is interested in getting our mechanics available for
all-risk or wildland fire incidents. They would possibly work towards the
Ground Support Unit Leader position.
Does anyone have any information on starting qualifications (Obviously
mechanic, I-100, etc.)?
Any information on required equipment for their mechanics truck (i.e.
compressor, welder, generator, etc)?
Any idea on daily rates for equipment reimbursement?
Any information would be appreciated.
Thanks,
AZfirefighter |
| 1/31 |
This memo keeps coming in. It's the directive TC referred to and made a
link to earlier this morning. It was toward the end of the larger pdf file.
Guess I better spell it out. Guess there's some heat over this one. Ab.
~~~Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2"
was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab.~~~
Date: January 30, 2008
Subject: Use of Emergency Lights and Sirens
To: All Employees, District Rangers
Effective immediately and pursuant to FSM Interim Directives No.
5120-2007-1 and 5130-2007-2 employees shall not use emergency lights and
sirens while the vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code
three responses shall be conducted as code two.
Emergency lights may be used while stationary to facilitate operational or
safety objectives as determined by the vehicle operator or his or her
supervisor.
Once the forest fire staff has an opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.
All vehicle operators are required to operate at all times with the safety
of pedestrians, other vehicles and themselves as the primary objective of
travel. As a reminder:
- Come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red traffic control
lights.
- Stop and do not pass any school bus with flashing warning lights.
- Adhere to posted speed limits.
- Travel at or below safe speeds based on road conditions, weather
conditions, visibility and vehicle configuration.
- Obey all railroad crossing signals.
- Adhere to local regulations governing vehicle operation.
If you have any questions regarding this direction, please contact the
Forest
Fire Management Officer. |
| 1/31 |
Ab and Driver51
This probably does not help out folks that are not in Region 1 of the FS,
but here is some info on Critical Incident Stress Management courses that
are happening up here. Perhaps the contacts Below could put folks in contact
with teams in their area.
Critical Incident Stress Management Basic Group Training
Tuesday May 20 from 1:00-5:00
Wednesday May 21 from 8:00-4:30
Thursday May 22 from 8:00-5:00
Aerial Fire Depot Training Center, Missouri Room, Missoula, MT
Any Questions please call: <snip>
Domaque.I passed the names/phone numbers on to Driver51 who asked the
question. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Re: R5 fire BOD Ed doesn't go to BOD meetings anymore.
Many FFMOs are new and don't know what the BOD used to
initiate and accomplish in a unified way.
Seems that some FFMOs are hiding on their forests behind their
line officers so as not to be identified with R5 Regional Office.
It's a mess. The Forest Service is a mess. Someone told me they're
pressing to get it done before Bush leaves office. Don't know if
that's true.
Glad I'm retired and don't have to be in the middle of a melt
down in R5 communication and function. I heard at least one FFMO
is likely to retire before fire season. Maybe the retirement bubble is
being forced to burst.
Our cooperators should be worried.
Listen to me spouting negativity. Apologies...
NorCal Tom |
| 1/31 |
Any word of whether the R5 fire BOD is going to tackle this vehicle issue
and address the requirements region wide in a unified fashion versus
independent action by forests?noname fire |
| 1/31 |
To All:
The expected new guidance from the RO in Region 5 with respect to taking
rigs home and other such dandy, regressive ideas, is what amounts to a "shot
across the bow" of the fire program. Senior non-fire staff have become
increasingly aggravated by what it perceives to be the fire program
"breaking away" from the land management agency, or "becoming their own
entity" which is costing the Agency so much money. Oddly they don't
understand that their very own actions and policies are what is driving up
the costs in the fire program.
Furthermore, their disdain for the fire program has increased by virtue of
the increased congressional scrutiny and that of the press. As a result,
this action by the R5 RF as well as the collar brass issue in R6 are what
can be described as a typical bureaucratic response in order to show all of
you who is boss.
The dumbfounding fact is that the non-fire senior leadership who consider
the fire program's "breaking away" are not willing to recognize that what
the fire program is doing is actually called (drum roll please) PROGRESS in
order to stay on top of the ever-increasing complexities of wildland fire.
This thought-process is typical of those who have no fire experience or
expertise. A major concern with such a bureaucratic response to in essence
"reel in" the fire program is that it may lead to an increased risk in the
health & safety of our firefighters and those they protect.
That being said it, all of you should be aware that there will likely be
more ridiculous policies coming from non-fire leadership in their effort to
'reign in" those renegade fire people to make sure they all know whose boss.
Fortunately, firefighters now have the 3 P's on their side: the Public, the
Press and the Politicians.
Already folks in those 3 categories are developing their own plans to
address this leadership phenomenon, also known as REgression. Now is not the
time to abandon our efforts to make the fire program more effective and
efficient while provide our firefighters with the pay & benefits they
deserve.
Now, more than ever, it is the responsibility of all of us to raise this
"Titanic" known as the FS fire program.
So, expect more nutty decisions from the ROs and RFs but recognize them for
what they are. Stay focused on your job as FIREFIGHTERS, take care of
yourselves and your co-workers and keep the FWFSA abreast of anything you
think we need to know. As is typical in these kinds of situations, things
may get dicier sooner than they get resolved. Just remember, this is YOUR
career and you have every right to fight for it.
Respectfully,
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA |
| 1/31 |
Rogue Rivers:
You are right that there is really no good excuse for SWCC Intel not having
daily updates to the big fire situation in Eastern New Mexico and West Texas
right now. The New Mexico State Forestry has had umpteen fires, some large,
lately and since NMSF is part of the SW Area their fires should certainly be
posted to the SWCC Intel page on a timely basis.
It is probable, however, that NMSF is not fully aware of their own fires
until they are old news. The backbone of NMSF IA response is VFDs and they
are not very communicative most of the time about their own responses to
wildland fires to the total of 12 or so NMSF full time employees who might
deliver the information to SWCC.
The Texas Forest Service, an extension of Texas A&M University, is entirely
another story. The only parts of Texas that report to SWCC are the
relatively small parcels of federal lands west of the 100th meridian. The
TFS reports to SACC on all of their fires and really nobody else. Same story
with the VFDs being the backbone of IA on at least non-federal lands.
So, again, no excuses for anybody. That is just the way it is. Of course
they need to change something to enhance their communications but funding is
certainly at the center of the matter.
NMAirBear |
| 1/31 |
Subject: Official Information - Marc's Services
Official Information - Please distribute far and wide...
My e-mail list is not comprehensive and has holes, so please utilize your
own e-mail network to redistribute /thanks
Memorial Services will be held for Marc Mullenix
Wednesday, February 6 - 1200 hours
Faith Bible Chapel
6250 Wright Street
Arvada, CO 80004
Memorial Fund:
Marc Mullenix Life Challenge Foundation
Donations can be made at the time of the services or mailed to: "details to
follow"
Those preferring to send flowers, Flowers will be received at:
Fairmount Fire Department
4755 Isabel Street
Golden CO 80403
Further issues/concerns/info: Fairmount Fire 303-279-2928
Dress appropriate for Marc (that could include casual)Matt |
| 1/31 |
Marc Mullenix services Ab, Please share the following information:
Services for Marc will be held
Feb 6th, 1200 at the
Faith Bible Chapel
6250 Wright St
Arvada, CO.
Please send all flowers or contributions to
Fairmount Fire
4755 Isabell Rd
Golden CO 80403.
Thanks to all for your thoughts, Marc's presence will be missed.
Take whatever piece he gave you and pass it on. His leadership
will live on through all of us.
LO
Thanks L. Sorry for your loss. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Re Marc Mullenix services/condolences: For those of you asking about
services for Marc, we have received some info. It seems Fairmont FD will
handle them but all is in the planning stages.
Shawna has lots of support from her crew and Marc's team with them
organized in incident command style to deal with all necessary support
functions. Her parents, brother and Marc's daughter are with her.
Cards can be sent to
Shawna Legarza
PO Box 785
Mancos CO 81328 |
| 1/31 |
Dim Bulb,
Go to www.nfpa.org/ and
look up the emergency vehicle lighting standards.
It applies to all emergency apparatus operated by the fire service. It
addresses
each vehicle based on “Zones. “ Yes there is a lighting and reflective
stripping
standard and it is endorsed by the IAFF also.
Normbc9 |
| 1/31 |
Hey ab here is some good stuff I am sure Casey is all over it though
Signed: We Don't need no stinking badges
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Round Robin within BLM, but the message path was not included:
I believe you are aware.....
Omnibus included authority to reimburse fireline supervisors for 50% of PLI
premiums. We need to implement in a coordinated manner between 2
departments and 5 agencies.
Wally J is the DOI lead to work with FS. Ahead is the determination of who
quals and then estab a process and finally a DOI policy/directive.
Sandy, will be a good idea to touch base with Wally
New language in 2008 Omnibus Bill.doc (28K doc file) |
| 1/31 |
/s/ Stay Tuned.....
I can't wait to hear the next big decision from the Regional Forester in
Vallejo after his directive about storage of government vehicles at home.
There seems to be a collective feeling with the folks that I work with that
we continue to hear about how we are the best in the business and need
to continue to move forward, but then the WO and RO force us to take
steps backwards.
Now more than ever, Fire Programs need to be managed by Fire
Managers who understand what we deal with when the call comes in.
That includes the calls that come before 0930 and after 1800.
SL |
| 1/31 |
Ab, Mellie, anyone else?
Do either of you or anyone else know how I would go about finding out how to
be trained professionally in CISD or if there are any National or regional
courses available to us? I am a part of a departmental team, but would like
to help out on a regional or national level. I think that it is important
and would like to help. Anyone? Does it matter that I work for local
government or can I be apart of a USFS/Cal-Fire team after training? I have
a desire to help as someone did for me when I needed it, it's such a
important healing tool. Thank you in advance..
Driver51 |
| 1/31 |
This is meant to be somewhat of a "funny" but also a true statement....
The times I have visited the WO and RO recently, two things really stood
out:
1) The computer screens of the WO and RO fire programs had a pleasantly
orange/yellow glow to them while seeking information.... before being
back-clicked as folks approached, and
2) Most of the non-fire screens were doing AgLearn, or writing word
documents to justify or defend the current course of the Forest Service and
asking for "peer review" by us visitors.
I always get a good laugh when visiting the "battlefields" known as the WO
and ROs..... Always knowing the troops will win and lead the Forest Service
forward because they communicate and share common goals for the success of
the Forest Service..... and if not successful, they will lead a new Agency
that will meet the original intent of "Caring for the Land, Serving People"
that the current bureaucracy is afraid to factually address.
The Forest Service mission was broadly laid out to allow flexibility with
changing times to meet the needs of the stakeholders. The folks looking at
the orange/yellow glowing screens seem to be most informed on the issues and
future.
Thanks Ab(s) for providing the glowing support of the wildland fire
community.... Please don't change a thing.
Lobotomy |
| 1/31 |
Rogue Rivers,
I was visiting a friend of mine at the SW GACC in ABQ last summer. Most, if
not all, were walking around were FS employees. I did see a person wearing a
Bernallio County Fire Department Uniform, but that was about it (I think she
was visiting as well).
Back in '98 when I was out staging at the Hamby Volunteer Fire Department
during Texas's fire siege, I was talking with one of the regional fire
control officers from TFS. He didn't know what the SW GACC was, much less
where it was located.
I'm hoping that things have changed........
AZ Trailblazer |
| 1/31 |
This one is catching some folks by surprise........
In Nov 2007, the FS issued new manual direction of the use of emergency
vehicle lights. Because of this, some Forests are issuing direction, that
until they can complete the requirements, emergency lights will only be
used while vehicles are stationary.
FS emergency vehicle lights directive (76 K doc file)
TCPosted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code
2" was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Hi: Is there anyone that could send me the height and length of a USFS
Model 61 Engine. We're trying to ship two excess engines to R-9 for
the VFA program.
Thanks,
Oswego |
| 1/31 |
Hi Ab, KJoseph sent me the photo taken at Descanso in 1956. He mentioned
Emmett
Donohue and here is a photo of Emmett my dad took at the annual CDF/USFS
pre-fire season meeting. This was in 1949 at the Flinn Springs County Park
just west of Alpine, CA. in San Diego County. Could you share this with him
and all.
1949 Historical CDF/USFS pre-fire season photo
Thanks,
Normbc9 |
| 1/30 |
Does anyone know if there are different NFPA standards for the
placement of emergency lights on a chief's vehicle vs the standards
for automotive fire apparatus and wildland fire apparatus?
Our radio shop guys are getting ready to install lights/siren/radio in
a new BC pick-up, and are hung up on having some light at the
midpoint on the sides. (No lightbar, this will be all interior lighting).
Any help would be appreciated. (Abs, it's ok to give my e-mail
address to anyone who has the info)
Sign me,
Dim BulbWill pass any messages. Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Well, it looks like the R-5 Regional Forester is about to make a doosie of a
mistake.
It will be a mistake that will draw the political ire of local, state, and
federal elected
officials..... all in the idea of "clarifying the mission" and reeling in
the fire program.
I won't steal his thunder and ruin "the joy" of his announcement..... (and
to give him
a chance to rethink and re-evaluate his decision with his key Regional and
Forest fire
staffs being actually listened to).
/s/ Stay tuned..... |
| 1/30 |
Woody, I like your number 5.
I asked for and got a automatic center punch for Christmas. Cool little
tool.
Car of an acquaintance slid off an icy road and into a river and this kind
of
tool, that breaks a car window and can slash a seatbelt if you can't release
it,
saved her life.
One warning: Don't press it against your thumb to test it.
Mellie |
| 1/30 |
I asked Lobotomy for links to information that rebutted the 01/2007 WO
talking points: Lobotomy said:
Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS
AND SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often
disproven without relevant facts being substantiated.
The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well
informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the
same testimony that has been given for years..
The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and
verifiable facts.
Here they are. Thanks, Lobotomy. Ab.
S. Hrg 110-11 -- Costs of Wildfire Suppression, January 30, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:34268.pdf
(559K pdf file)
S. Hrg 110-58 -- Proposed Fiscal Year 2008 Budget Request for the Forest
Service, February 28, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:35971.pdf
(180K pdf file) |
| 1/30 |
Hi Ab and all,
Since the mid 60's when I started in the automotive repair trade, I have
seen more electrical problems than I care to remember.
That said, here are a few comments that I have:
- All electrical circuits Must use properly sized components (ie;
Wire, Fuses, Switches, Relays and Connectors) for the electrical loads
they are going to carry.
- Fuses and Circuit breakers need to installed as close to the power
source (ie; Battery or power distribution block) as possible/practical,
not at the component.
- If electrical problems cannot be properly diagnosed and repaired at
any particular repair shop, then consider having the vehicle towed to
another shop that may have more expertise with electrical work. Wreckers
and Rollbacks are cheaper than losing a vehicle to an electrical fire.
- Most late model vehicles no longer have any extra places in their
fuse blocks to add electrical loads (ie; mobile radios, radio and cell
phone chargers, lightbars and other emergency lighting) and even the new
battery terminals are frustrating. I like to use an insulated stud in a
central location and run 4 gauge welding cable from the battery + to the
stud and then run any other circuits that I'm adding from the stud using
suitable components.
- I highly recommend that everyone keep an automatic center punch in
easy reach in every vehicle the operate/own. because they are spring
loaded/operated they can instantly break any side or rear glass in any
vehicle to allow escape in situations similar to the one mentioned in
the safety alert and in particular in situations when a vehicle becomes
submerged when other methods do not work! these automatic center punch's
can be obtained at most hardware stores and home centers (Lowes, Home
Depot etc.) and are not expensive.
Be Safe Out There,
Woody NCDFR |
| 1/30 |
I had the chance to work with Marc Mullenix several times early in my
career,
both in the field and in the classroom. He was a leader, and he will be
missed.
L -- C -- E -- S |
| 1/30 |
Some pictures of Marc with his Rocky Mountain (Type 2) Incident
Management Team A...
marc and team 2003
marc and team 2005-2006
marc by USNews & World Report (Brief
www.usnews.com article, scroll down.)
Fair Use Disclaimer
Thanks contributors. Ab. |
| 1/30 | The
Jobs
page Wildland Firefighter Series
0462 (Forestry Technician) &
Series
0455 (Range Technician) &
Series
0401 (Biologist) have been updated.
We've posted 3 new job vacancy announcements to the
Jobs
page. Check 'em out.
Ab. |
| 1/30 |
I met Marc at least twenty years ago in Boulder, CO and wrote a story about
this larger-than-life wildland guy. Just talking with him, I could sense
that this man was going places in the wildland fire world. And, he sure did!
He was known far and wide in that world, thinking out of the box. Doin great
things for his wildland fire folks. He reminded me of wildland fire legend,
Paul Gleason. Since they knew each other, I should think that they are
sittin side by side under a big old pine tree swapping fire stories up
yonder. Ya, that's how I picture him and his friend, Paul.
To Shawna, and to his daughter, extended family and vast numbers of friends
and colleagues, the sincerest condolences on the passing of one of wildland
fire's memorable and excellent personalities. He's home now.
RM Winston
Boston FD DFC, retired
Fire Mag Journalist |
| 1/30 |
From the hotlist, 2 posts:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=14235#post14235
sr5401, thank you!
My cousin lives in Brooklyn just across the river from the WTC and New
Yorkers are worried about firefighters who were there and helped for days on
end.
We had a number of wildland fire Incident Management Teams and individuals
who responded...
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/nywtc_pentagon/sept11.htm
Those of you who went to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon after 9/11
to help on our Incident Management Teams, please stay abreast of your annual
check-ups and be aware of any lung symptoms you might have.
It's a shame and worse that firefighters who responded to 9/11 are not
getting the medical help and support they need. Is there anything we can do
to let our wishes for support be known to our congressional representatives?
Let's watch out for each other.
Mellie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While not directly related to wildland fire, this is an issue that could
have repercussions for the members of the Incident Management Teams that
responded to rescue and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center and the
Pentagon.
sr5401
www.fireengineering.com/news/newsArticleDisplay.html?id=156713
9/11 worker's silent State of the Union protest
Newsday, Melville, N.Y. (January 29, 2008)
Jan. 29--WASHINGTON -- John Feal of Nesconset, had vowed never to return to
the nation's capital.
The former demolition supervisor, whose left foot was crushed by an
eight-ton steel beam while he worked to remove debris from Ground Zero, said
it was simply too painful to be reminded of what he sees as the Bush
administration's abandonment of him and other 9/11 responders.
But Monday, Feal, 41, gave it another shot, sitting in the gallery of the
U.S. Capitol, along with eight other first responders, who are battling
illnesses and other disabilities related to their service. Their presence
was both rebuke and de facto demand to the Bush administration.
"I want to hear him say, 'I'm sorry,'" Feal said. "I want to hear him say
that he's going to leave a billion dollars or more for 9/11 responders when
he leaves office."
But Feal, who has set up his own foundation to help ailing 9/11 workers,
admitted he is not terribly optimistic.
Earlier in the day, he and other men who became ill after working at Ground
Zero appeared at a news conference alongside New York lawmakers and labor
leaders, demanding the administration explain why it last month halted plans
for a health monitoring and treatment program for Ground Zero workers around
the country. They also urged passage of a long-term program to monitor those
exposed to toxins after the Twin Towers' collapse.
"This isn't a political issue," said Feal, who has developed lung problems
in addition to having 11 surgeries on his feet. "This is a moral and human
issue. This is about people dying."
Rep. Tim Bishop (D-Southampton), praised Feal for the work of the Feal Good
Foundation, but added, "he ought not have to do that. ... The public sector
has the resources and it has the obligation."
Lt. James Riches of Brooklyn, an FDNY deputy chief who lost his firefighter
son Jimmy that day, predicted that more people would eventually die from
toxic exposure than were killed on 9/11. He has developed severe lung
disease after search and recovery work.
"When I was down there digging through the pile, there was a gigantic sign,
'Never forget 9/11.' We hope our politicians don't forget us now," he said.
To see more of Newsday, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to http://www.newsday.com
Fair Use Disclaimer |
| 1/30 |
Ab,
The wildfire community has lost one of the truly good leaders. I remember
introducing myself to Mullenix a few years ago, with him replying, "I know
who you are. I think there are ways for us to work together." Although we
moved in different circles, he just had an awareness of what happened beyond
his personal work and interests. That's probably part of what made him a
great commander and inspired others to follow.
When he facilitated the exercises in the S-230 class I took, he talked about
how as a type 2 IC he liked to meet with the single resource bosses on his
fires. Partly he did it to improve his SA, but mostly because he wanted
that connection with the boots on the ground. A simple act of leadership to
show up and take the time.
Heaven only knows the burdens that were bigger than his shoulders.
vfd cap'n |
| 1/30 |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7093685.stm
Huh…looks like they had WUI issues during the Bronze Age. Interesting
note that it took 300 years from abrupt ecological change for the society
to collapse.
At the risk of trolling, I’d like to flip the % funding issue around…is the
increased emphasis on fire, especially with the escalating WUI situation,
deterring from the rest of the FS mission? What about the other land
management agencies?
Nerd on the Fireline |
| 1/30 |
Safety Alert coming in from several sources. Thanks to those in the
community that forward these to us. Ab. On Friday January 25'th, Greg
<snip> was in Yreka in his patrol vehicle
completing assignments. During the day, his vehicle exhibited a check
battery light periodically. Greg contacted Skip <snip> and the
arrangement
was made to take it in to A-1 Auto for a check. A-1 was able to witness
the light activating but were not able to track it down to any problem.
The light simply came on and off with no pattern or obvious reason.
On Saturday January 26'th, Greg was patrolling the Snow Parks on the
Goosenest and stopped at 4-Corners Park to have lunch. Upon exiting the
park for the return trip to the office, his gauges began to fluctuate from
the low to high end and stopped at the upper level, this was paired with
steam coming form under the hood (smoke). Greg was able to find a location
to safely stop and turned off the vehicle to get out and check the cause of
the steam. The doors and windows would not unlock or open and allow exit
from the vehicle.
Greg reacted swiftly and turned the key to the on
position and was able to exit. He raised the hood and discovered the main
12 volt lead to his pump unit was burned to the bare wire. Greg
disconnected the wire from the battery and traced it back to his pump. He
found that at least 10 feet of the wire was burned and that when Serco
performed the install of the pump, they had failed to position an in-line
fuse in the main lead to guard against fire from a short.
The bottom line to this narrative is two fold.
- Be aware that in case of a vehicle fire, the door and window manual
unlock
may be overridden and compromised.
- If you have add-on equipment to your vehicle, make sure fuses are
installed in the main wiring leads.
<snip original sender info> |
| 1/30 |
My condolences to the family, friends, and co-workers of
Marc Mullinex. I did not have the fortune of knowing this
man, but it sounds like he was an extraordinary individual.
Godspeed Marc.
SCR |
| 1/30 |
Marc Mullenix Shawna, I'm so sorry to you and all in the fire community,
we lost a great friend... I met Marc when he was with BLM
on the INJO area and worked with him while he was with
the Boulder Fire Department.. My best to You.
JP Harris, LACOFD retired |
| 1/30 |
Dan,
My most sincere apologies to you and also to Union
IHC.
I copied the info From Northwest Area Coordination
Center Shared Resource page
www.nwccweb.us/content/products/intelligence/SharedResources.pdf
and added the parent agency without checking my facts,
my bad. La Grande was input twice on the page and I
just omitted the duplicate.
However despite my error, it begs the question why
does the NWCC page have La Grande down twice, when
they most assuredly meant to have Union on the page?
I understand human error, all too well, but this page
can and likely is used to make decisions at some
level.
Again, sorry for the mistake
Firepup91 |
| 1/30 |
fire costs: Ab. when I was working for the forest service in R6 back in the
late 80's for
reforestation. the Fire program borrowed lots of our planting money to pay
for some of the fires during those years...
MDS |
| 1/30 |
From Firescribe:
ed-shafer-confirmed-as-secretary-of-agriculture
Ed Shafer Confirmed as Secretary of Agriculture
Wednesday, January 30, 2008
US - The United States Department of Agriculture has
confirmed that former Governor Edward Shafer will be
the new secretary of Agriculture, succeeding Mike
Johanns.
Meet the 29th Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer
(photo)
Secretary Schafer brings a record as an innovative
two-term governor of North Dakota to USDA along with
extensive private sector experience as both an
entrepreneur and a business executive.
Schafer served as North Dakota's governor from 1992 to
2000 and made diversifying and expanding North
Dakota's economy, reducing the cost of government and
advancing agriculture his top priorities in office.
<snip>
Secretary Schafer enjoys the outdoors and his hobbies
include bicycling, hiking, scuba diving and restoring
classic automobiles. He and his wife, Nancy, have four
children; Tom Schafer, Ellie Schafer and Eric Jones
and Kari Jones; and eight grandchildren.
more at the link... |
| 1/30 |
Marc Mullenix's passing: I am deeply saddened to hear of Marc's passing.
Marc was an excellent firefighter, leader, teacher, motivator, and friend.
The most important thing I learned from Marc was 'always take care of your
people'. It was hard not to have fun when around Marc, even when situations
got to be a bit rough he had a way of keeping morale up while keeping the
troops focused on the task at hand. He was a great guy that will be dearly
missed.
My condolences to his family.
Godspeed, Marc.
Matt H |
| 1/30 |
I did not know Marc from the fireline. I did know him from the Ab inbox. He
was a part of this online community, writing infrequently, but sharing good
information and raising issues where appropriate. Last we heard from him was
in July between assignments. Vincit qui patitur. (The one who is
patient wins.)
This Latin showed up at the bottom of his emails. Not a bad message for
one fighting fire and responsible for others fighting fire. To me it says
"Use tactics and firefighters appropriately. Safety first. Persist."
Godspeed, Marc. My best to his family. We've all lost a good one. Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Marc Mullenix's passing: When someone as fine as Marc passes on it's hard
to know what to say.
He was a good thinker, good strategist, cared for the troops, knew how
to communicate. He was a LEADER. It's hard to think that he won't be
around doing what he did well. Our loss, fire's loss. My condolences to
his family.
Roadrunner |
| 1/30 |
Very sad to hear of his passing. Marc was a friend and co worker for many
years. My thoughts and prayers are with his family.
Mark Ruggiero |
| 1/30 |
My point is that we get told the number and then it hangs over our head, like
its a bad thing. When you hear staff officers from other areas saying we
need to reduce that number, because it is a popular thing to say, when I
know damn well they don't know what they are talking about. My question is
why is it an issue and that a given number is an issue, but it should
equally be why not.
We don't know what has gone into that number. So the budget percentages for
fire have gone up, and Tom Harbour, said a number that comparatively
speaking is not based on the same inputs from when those numbers were cited
from previous years. I am not a conspiracy guy, but what is the point, where
are we going with that. After 2000 it was apparent we needed more of
everything and we got more of everything. What apparently nobody told mother
nature was that we weren't going to have any more big fires. Or add in the
fuels dollars, congress was told that treatments in the WUI would stop
houses from burning. We have saved some homes but it has cost a lot of money
in the process. I did some checking the other day and on my Forest we have
treated about 20,000 acres in the last 4 years, a good start, but we need to
average that for the next 100 years.
The FS pays for programs that are under the guise of interagency programs.
From what I understand, the FS pays for the Heavy Air Tanker program. What
goes into that, well some aircraft, some retardant bases, some retardant,
personnel, some contract administration, research and development, oh and
don't forget the lawsuit, that I funded a wildlife bio to work on, out of
local WFPR funds.
We can go down the list, IHCs, Smokejumpers, National Helicopters, NIFC,
Fire Caches, Training Facilities, Fire Labs, MTDC, San Dimas, the IR
program, all of the GACCs, Landfire, what else, make your own list. Don't
get me wrong, I in some way or other believe in these programs, and what
they do. I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus here. It just all
adds up.
My problem is that I need some new line gear, we still have not got
everybody that needs one a new generation fire shelter, I hire about 80% of
the appropriate number of firefighters, My rig could really use some lights.
We make GS-04s show lunch breaks on there timesheets on large fires. We get
hammered locally when we don't have all of the tools that we need put every
fire out. 98% sometimes is about 2% less than needed (Sorry George) Yeah we
spend a lot of money but it aint all on the things that people want to
believe we are spending them on. FMOs go check how many folda-tanks, or
porta-tanks, or pumpkins that your have on hand on your unit. Then check two
other things, what kind of shape are they in and how much it will cost to
replace them.
Ok, I will take a look at some budget numbers and not at work either.
IntothewindThanks. Well said. I understand your points. Changing %
over those years also co-varied with the way finances were recorded and a
lot of other changes going on, including an attempted shift to a new
budgeting tool (that hasn't worked well). Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Intothewind,
You said,
"Quite frankly, no one knows where those numbers come from, whether
they are 50% or 54%, or some other number. The reality is that there are
people willing to quote those numbers and as importantly others that
believe them."
Most important is the RESEARCH behind the numbers. A good Student of Fire
would either verify or deny "the numbers". The numbers tell a story of a
failing program since the 1950's and the folks who have the facts to justify
their numbers.
WFHF should be included and focused upon, because it BECAME KING in keeping
a failed program afloat..... just like the timber program.
on another note re the 01/2007 WO talking points:
Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS AND
SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often disproven
without relevant facts being substantiated.
The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well
informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the same
testimony that has been given for years..
The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and
verifiable facts.
Lobotomy
Thanks, Lobotomy. That is certainly a good point about the WO talking
points. You're a relentless researcher on Fire's behalf as are some others
in FWFSA. Many thanks for that. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
re: Marc Mullenix's passing
Marc was a colleague, mentor, and friend. Words fail to express our loss.
Please say a prayer for our brother, his family, and his friends.
Rest assured, his passion will live on in all of us fortunate to have worked
with him.
Godspeed, Marc, Godspeed.
-StumpShot |
| 1/29 |
Intothewind, it would be great if you'd try to do that if you need to
in order to make your point.
If I recall correctly, I heard it in a presentation last year by Tom
Harbour, FAM Chief or Kent Connaughton, Associate Deputy Forestry Chief, WO.
Might have been a tape. Does anyone else recall that presentation last winter? I may also have seen
it as a talking point on some doc that went out. Seems like "fire budget as
xx % of the FS budget" came up several times over the last few years as
the number was rising. If it
was being shared as a talking point, I'm sure it was shared over and over at
different meetings. It was used in the context of being a budget red flag
for the FS.
I searched on "% of the Forest Service Budget" with quotes around it
and found the link in a post by Bud on May 26, '06. It referred the reader
to the Director's Corner, Tom Harbour's corner. In his post of May '06, Bud
said
The fire budget used to be 13% of the Forest Service budget. Now it's
43%.
That was in '06. Last year in '07 it was up to more than 50%. Bud's
comments on 5/26/06 theysaid are similar to OFG's points, that it's simply what it takes to
run the fire program --cost of doing business.
Here's the budget page Bud pointed to:
www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/budget/
A bit more digging into the archives and here's Tom Harbour's email from 2/1/07. By
later in March he was saying 50% or 54% and I think Kent C was saying that too.
In 2007 the % had already exceeded their 2008 projection. I'm posting it
next as it was posted just about a year ago, sent in by noname. Ab.
|
| 1/29 |
From 2/1/07 in response to Intothewind's request today for documentation.
Ab. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Management Efficiencies Talking Points:
Wonder how everyone will feel
about this one:
- Critical
resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed
nationally for maximum flexibility.
noname
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Management Efficiencies Fact Sheet
January 29, 2007
- Over the last 20 years the Forest Service has been persistently
challenged by fire management costs.
- Contributing factors to these cost challenges include climate
changes, the expanding WUI, and general forest health conditions
resulting in larger more intense fires.
- In 2006, fire suppression expenditures accounted for 40% of the
Agency budget or $1.5 billion.
- In 2007, 41% of the Forest Service budget is allocated to fire
management, and in 2008 that percentage climbs to 48%.
- Because of these escalating costs, other Agency programs are
suffering and our ability to care for the land and serve the people is
compromised.
- Various internal and external groups have studied these costs and
have provided over 300 recommendations intended to curb increasing
suppression costs if implemented.
- The Chief directed a small group of Forest Service subject matter
experts to review and consolidate these recommendations and develop
actions the Forest Service can take over the short and long term to
support sound decision making and ensure prudent choices are made when
spending. The resulting recommendations have been titled Management
Efficiencies.
- These actions were categorized into Leadership, Operations, and
Management and when implemented serve to ensure the following.
- Clear and concise understanding of Appropriate Management Response –
choosing the best suppression strategy for the resources and values at
risk.
- Expanded Knowledge, Skill, and Ability for Agency Administrators
responsible for managing large or nationally significant fires.
- Increased oversight from the Regional and Washington offices on
incidents of national significance in support of the agency
administrator.
- Severity funds are used within limits.
- Establishment of a definite budget for each incident (use of SCI).
- Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are
managed nationally for maximum flexibility.
- Revision of the current aviation strategy ensuring the safe and
financially prudent use of firefighting aircraft.
- The details of the proposed management efficiencies are being
formulated and expected implementation of the short-term actions will
begin in the 2007 fire season.
These recommendations go hand-in-hand with the variety of business
processes the Forest Service has changed in recent years to more efficiently
manage its resources.
Contact: Tom Harbour 202-205-08xx |
| 1/29 |
Ab,
I'm not really sure if we agree or disagree and it is really irrelevant to
the discussion besides. Quite frankly, no one knows where those numbers come
from, whether they are 50% or 54%, or some other number. The reality is that
there are people willing to quote those numbers and as importantly others
that believe them. What numbers should be included, WFHF funds should not be
included in that total for example, but I don't know if it is or is not. I
challenge you, to do the homework on this and validate the breakdown of how
those numbers add up. If you cannot do that then say so and I will, it may
take a few days.
Intothewind |
| 1/29 |
Why does the Southwest Geographic Area Coordinating Center usually
"take a vacation" until April of each year?
There are fires in eastern New Mexico and West Texas during their
usual winter fire season. While there aren't many National Forests in the
area, there are significant National Parks, FWS Refuges, BIA Reservations,
and BLM public lands in these areas.
Also, New Mexico State Lands and the Texas Forest Service utilize the
services of the SW GACC for daily intel, predictive services, and resource
support.
It would seem that the GACC only cared about the National Forests? Or
is it a question of who provides the funding?
Rogue Rivers |
| 1/29 |
Ab,
Not sure if you have posted this
R5 Fire Hire document or not. If not, could you
as this is good information for all those may have applied or are still on
the fence,
since the region will be back filling once a position is filled.
Thanks,
noname on fire |
| 1/29 |
OFG (ret)
You said,
"Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit
griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest
supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse
that "my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've
been there."
What happens when the Forest and District Fire Staffs know far more about
the budgeting process (and where their budgets go) than new District Rangers
or new Forest Supervisors that "somehow" come directly from the WO.......
without any significant field experience?
Seems like what you keep calling "griping" is actually known as two-way
leadership and communication.
Lobotomy |
| 1/29 |
Small Agency FMO,
Yeah, I know that (but others reading may not). It seems strange that
"biologist" Series 401 was chosen to fulfill the South Canyon mitigation
for "professional". Thx.
NorCal Tom |
| 1/29 |
PB, Here's an article link from the theysaid archives:
www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/12/04/news/top/news01.txt
Tahoe Terrie |
| 1/29 |
Tough day in Texas.
Many fires across the state and numerous homes lost.
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5495524.html
Mid West FMO |
| 1/29 |
Ab -
Apparently Marc Mullenix (ICT1 trainee on Rocky-Basin Type 1 Team) passed away
last night.
No details yet. His wife Shawna <snip> is the San Juan IHC Sup.
PD, Fire Chief
<snip>Sad news. We called and verified this information. Marc
was the IC of the Rocky Mountain Team A (Type 2) for several years and was
Martin's Rocky-Basin Type 1 Team trainee last season. He worked for Fairmont Fire Dept near
Denver. Formerly he was FMO at Mesa Verde NP and worked for the Denver FD. Very sad news. Please let us
know as you hear more. Thoughts and prayers for family, friends, coworkers
and teammates. He was much loved. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Wanna find IHC home unit designators? How about their days off.
Or, how about their jetports. Or, how many IHC's there are per
GACC. Well, it's all brought to you by the National Mobe Guide,
for your reading enjoyment!
-Picker- |
| 1/29 |
AB
Winema was never a BIA crew only Warm Springs IHC is, Vale is BLM.
Firepup91
You forgot UNION IHC so probably ought to check the remarks about who knows
what about R-6
Resources.
"Which leads me to surmise, that if you don't know how
many IHCs there are, perhaps you aren't familiar with
all the other resources available in R6."
Saski Sam
Where did you get your information? The 1970 MOB guide?
There are 5 FS engines just on the La Grande Ranger District.
Dan |
| 1/29 |
Ab et al, The fire budget process is indeed "interesting". Much of the
funding which in the past had been handed down to cover various
administrative services (personnel, contracting, procurement etc) has been
eliminated. Program funds are now charged to provide these service, ie "user
pays". So......if you want to have "someone" process your personnel
paperwork (vacancy announcements, selection panels, payroll processing)
money comes "off the top" and is sent to ASC.
If your forest wants some new engines or dozers, better pony up the money
for the procurement or contracting folks, not to mention the fleet manager
(what per cent of fleet are fire vehicles?).
NEPA is required for fuels work. Who's supposed to pay the "'ologists" and
foresters for fuels related work? Yup, the fuels program.
There is no "free ride" for fire or any other program.
The "non-fire" folks are often the militia, and all the others whose work
supports fire. Without the personnel, contracting, procurement, NEPA, public
affairs and others, the job wouldn't get done. It is truly an agency mission
to accomplish fire management. It IS NOT solely a "fire program" mission.
Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit
griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest
supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse that
"my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've been there.
OFG (ret) |
| 1/29 |
Here is the list with parent agencies:
WA
Baker River IHC - FS
Entiat IHC -FSOR
La Grande IHC - FS
Prineville IHC - FS
Redmond IHC -FS
Rogue River IHC - FS
Union IHC - FS
Winema IHC - FS
Wolf Creek IHC - FS
Zig Zag IHC - FS
Vale IHC - BLM
Warm Springs IHC - BIA
Also the list seems a little light on the index page
at:
www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_index.html
Perhaps it hasn't been updated in a year or two.
Seems to me like some of the Regional Hotshot Crews
have made the step to IHCs?
Firepup91
Thanks for the breakdown. That table on fs.fed.us has a hiccup in the
parent agency the way my computer reads it. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Well that is just the way it goes when a person knows most things.
You all forgot my and my son's shot crew, "UNION ihc".
Wildfire since Carter, Little Bear, Peace
Sorry about that. I was looking at the ihc list wondering why the
numbers didn't add up. "Research" has a call in trying to get some resource
numbers. Dispatcher that was recommended is out of the office at meetings
until tomorrow. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
While it's interesting to note the R6 dilemma in getting accurate resource
counts....
Aren't the resources ALL on file at the GACCs???
While I and we are preaching this stuff for CWPPs in all the communities
applying for Firewise grants, some of THE MOST simple things such as
a resource list should be in every community whether or not they are paid
or VFDs....
The bare minimums should apply to ALLLLLLLL the resource agencies.
These resources aren't secret and they should be available
Heck, FIRESCOPE taught us this "bare minimum" years ago.... Are the
land management agencies exempt from these reporting procedures???
Just a hint folks, DHS may require these for FMAG grants and WE all know
some folks feel about FMAG and DHS requirements. WE just OUGHT
to be ahead of that game... since land management...ERRRR FIRE agencies
started the whole deal of RESOURCE TYPING.
Maybe R6 and the whole shebang ought to learn from what they formed /
adopted and stick to it...
That maybe a req for Forest Supervisors.... KNOW WHERE YOUR
EQUIPMENT and PEOPLE ARE...... bare minimums for LEADERSHIP.
And we know how much FIRE is preaching LEADERSHIP>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Out here |
| 1/29 |
Dear Sir,
There are 11 Interagency Hotshot Crews in Region 6. 9
of which are in Oregon and 2 in Washington.
They are: (alphabetically)
Baker River IHC
Entiat IHC
La Grande IHC
Prineville IHC
Redmond IHC
Rogue River IHC
Vale IHC
Warm Springs IHC
Winema IHC
Wolf Creek IHC
Zig Zag IHC
Which leads me to surmise, that if you don't know how
many IHCs there are, perhaps you aren't familiar with
all the other resources available in R6.
Firepup91Is Warm Springs BIA as per the hotshot crew list? That would
still be 10 FS with 8 in OR, 2 in WA. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Siski Sam / Abs
I did a quick count from the R-6 FS- BLM Fire Directory and counted 190
Engine Capts......So I think the numbers you quoted of 16 FS engines in the
region and the rest contract are a little off......unless you meant
160......Not sure what the exact # is right now...but it sure isn't 16....I
can count that many here in my local area...and that's just using my
fingers and toes.... This also doesn't take into account the NPS, F & WS,
and BIA resources in the NW.
Gorge FMOCan someone find out how many FS engines there are. R6 is
heavily BLM. It would be good to have accurate/ballpark numbers other than
"it's not 16". Although, that's good to know too. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Intothewind and All,
stop putting the spin that fire spending is at the rate of 50% of the
funds that the Forest Service spends.
I think you mis-understand and we're saying the same thing. More than 50%
of the FS budget (I heard last year it was 54%) is congressionally
appropriated specifically for Fire, Congress had in mind engines or fuel
treatments, perhaps. Instead of that, a great deal of that money designated
for fire gets tapped by FS District Rangers into paying for non-fire
personnel. Someone wrote in that on their CA forest 4 non-fire people were
paid for with budget funds mandated by congress for fire. (A great deal of
it also got siphoned off the set up the Albuquerque HR Service Center, as
well.)
One older'n'dirt forester told me that it used to be the FS was a
"Forestry Department doing Fire". Now it's a "Fire Department doing
Forestry". I don't know if that's true, but following the money suggests it
is and has been for the last 5 or 6 years in many parts of the West. Part of
the current struggle the "New Forest Service" is grappling with is how to
reposition the agency with respect to its initial core mission and vision,
"Protecting the Land and Serving People". To squeeze itself back into being
a NR Department doing Fire, it will have to give up huge responsibilities in
Fire and huge fire budget monies. If wildland fire leaves the FS, this might
be as much as 1/3 of the FS organization and 50% of the FS budget. That's
not to say it shouldn't reaffirm its mission/vision, clarify its function
and streamline, get its finances in order, modernize accountability, etc,
it's just that this is harder and harder to do as "mission creep" into the
WUI has occurred.
A recurring and logical question has been, "Why not a National Fire
Service?" Well, USDA (USFS) and DOI (BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA) would have to
agree, for one thing and mission/vision and standards among so many agencies
differ to some degree. In addition, all the money Congress earmarks for Fire
would go to that Nat Fire org, and the other fed agencies can't afford to
lose it (or control of it). What may be more palatable to the fed agencies
is a stove-piped fire organization within the respective agencies like LE &
I is within the FS.
The other thing that might happen is that Fire would come under DHS/FEMA.
Now that might sound terrible, but maybe Fire could think of it as us
infiltrating them with our values, training, attention to detail. There
aren't many of them and there are lots of us. Just a thought.
I heard from a friend the other day that, at the National FS level, Fire
is characterized as "Fire Thieves" as in fire is "stealing the budget" and
that fire's "stealing the budget" has to be corrected. I would say "fire
thieves" is an unfair characterization that is trickling down to influence
regional attitudes toward firefighters and will influence non-fire FS
programs that could influence firefighter safety. What those saying this
don't understand is that blaming firefighters for the situation is like
blaming the troops for the war in Iraq. OMB is doing it to the FS and to
Fire. Firefighters have no more control than the FS Chief. However,
characterizing firefighters as "Fire Thieves" does create a climate that is
not safe for firefighters trying to do their highly risky jobs.
My two cents...
Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Siski Sam, Could you please confirm your number regarding only 16 FS
engines in R6 and the rest being contract? I know in Southern
Oregon we have 2 at Star, 2 in the Butte falls/ prospect area
and a few in Jo. county as well. Now we need to count BLM
too... they have 5 engines in Medford alone and numerous in
Bend, Burns, well all of eastern Oregon has BLM.
Just wondering about the numbers....
Could someone in the "know" in R6 please provide the full numbers for
FS (and BLM and NPS) resources or give us a phone number to call and our
research team will enquire. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Ab,
The attached
WUI principles letter from CWCG to the FIRESCOPE Board
(83K pdf file) came in my e-mail this morning. It's from last
October, so I'm
surprised it hasn't been posted here before. No word on whether it's been
adopted or forwarded to NWCG.
A few months ago I posted elsewhere that "the fire orders are dead." After
reading Randy Moore's Esperanza letter, I'm sure of it.
vfd cap'n |
| 1/29 |
Longtime lurker not much for words but thought you should know
that the information on R6 resources is not accurate. I don't know
how many engines there are but much more than 16, as far as shot
crews go I count eleven, and there are at least four rappel bases in
the region. ThanksIG |
| 1/29 |
Flight,
You might get a kick out of this...Or anyone else debating whether or not to
answer that cell while driving. Plus a car has one driver (Usually my wife
from the passenger seat). Every commercial airliner has at least two pilots
and an autopilot. (Airplane! taught me that!) :)
www.sante.bouyguestelecom.fr/btdocs/653.pdf
CDF Capt,
I would have to agree with your collar brass arguments. There are people out
there in the Forest service that shouldn't be wearing what they are.
Sometimes people have trouble calling a spade a spade and sometimes our
special situations exist that make you doubt even the ones that have earned
their brass tacks. I wonder about some in your agency as well. I have and
ex-roommate that has three years fire experience that is wearing a single
bugle on his collar. He runs the crew once a week. In my third year I was
accepting the fact that I was gonna be wet behind the ears for another year.
I don't want to attack a place I want work, but to me that is scary and
reckless. Being book smart and giving the right answer on paper isn't
firefighting. Any who those stories exist on both sides of the fence. I
recently put a supplemental in and looking to go to work for Cal-fire.
Hopefully I can prove that I am worthy of keeping that single plunger on my
collar. I would like it if maybe we could bounce some emails back and forth
and see what kind of job hunting advice you could give. I have a pretty
solid idea already. I am giving AB permission to give you my email. If you
would like to chat.
sign me, Maybe gone
[But not forgotten ;) TY Mellie] |
| 1/29 |
A few more numbers from R6;
IHCs:12 Crews,
Rappel Programs: 5,
Engines: 100+ (a bit of guess, being at home, thats the best I can do),
Smokejumpers: 60-65 (depending on details, turned ankles etc).
Budget issues are not the root of all of our problems. However, many could
be
solved by appropriate funding. How about that for Appropriate Management
Response, stop putting the spin that fire spending is at the rate of 50% of
the
funds that the Forest Service spends. I don't have an idea what numbers are
added up to get that number. 70% of my WFHF budget goes to planning and
funding non-fire personnel, what does that all mean. And by the way,
produced
timber volume as a by product of good resource management.
Intothewind WFHF = Wildland Fire Hazardous Fuels |
| 1/29 |
From Hickman, some information that may help with filing taxes: New
Resources on Federal Taxation Available on IAFC Website
www.iafc.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=722 |
| 1/29 |
ms:
I will try to answer some of your questions regarding pre-reqs for CAL FIRE
Chief Officers. There are, of course exceptions to every rule, so bear with
me.
- Do CDF BCs have qualification requirements prior to entering the
position? Example; do they need to be DIVS, ICT3, ICT4 or a Strike Team Ldr
prior to getting the position?
Based on our 4039 policy, which is our version of 310.1, we have pre-reqs
that you would normally see in an applicant for the BC Testing process.
Given that, our department recognizes all Company Officers as being Type 3
IC's based on their successful completion of the CAL FIRE Academy and their
probationary performance in the field. Some pre-reqs for BC would include
the following: DIVS, STL, I-400, IM 2, Sup 3 and probably 4, CFESTES Fire
Officer Series and a good portion of Chief Officer Series, an ICS Track
pursuant to one of the Section Chief positions, or at least working toward
that position. This would be coupled with formal education and varied field
experience in multiple disciplines ( Sched. A / B, Staff, etc.). Within the
first year as a BC, it is required that the employee takes IM3 and OSC.
Typically, you will see a Section Chief track fulfilled and Supervision 5 to
follow as well as the completion of the CFESTES Chief Officer Series and the
pursuit of the NFA.
- Does CDF have BCs out there that respond to and manage emergencies
without a DIVS or ICT3, ITC4 qualification?
Not to my knowledge
-Do your BCs and Capt in the ECCs and other positions on the unit have or
are required to maintain ICS qualifications? Would I be correct in saying
that most have the qualifications, however some may not?
Again, per 4039 policy, all Company Officers and Chief Officers are required
to certify in and maintain currency in ICS qualifications. When promoting
from Firefighter to Engineer, every employee is required to choose an ICS
track that they begin fulfilling through their JAC program. If held to, this
would result in Section Chief qualification in that track by the time that
employee is a senior Captain and ready to promote to BC.
-Do you have non-ICS qualification requirements or non-NWCG training
required to be a CDF BC, such as a Chief Officer school? Thanks.
The department has the CDF University and Chief Officer College where our
Supervision and Leadership courses are born. In addition, the Incident
Management Classes are internal courses geared toward career advancement in
Operations. Our department also values the CFESTES series as well as the
National Fire Academy for our Company and Chief Officers.
- I'd also like to learn how these questions apply to the DC and Capt
positions?
I cannot speak to the Assistant or Deputy Chief positions.
Hope this helps answer your questions.
CAL FIRE BC |
| 1/29 |
Ab,
Hundekot writes about a tort claim subsequent to a backfire operation
in Montana, and quotes from the district court opinion. Does Hundekot
have a citation or party name? Inquiring law students want to know . . . .
Thanks,
PB |
| 1/29 |
Siski Sam,
I'd like to know where the number of 16 engines for all of R6 comes from. I
find that
incredibly hard to believe. I can count off-hand more engines than that
between the
MAF, UMF, WWF, COFMS and BIFZ. 16 engines for 19 forests? That's less than
one engine per forest. Even on the west-side there still seems to be at
least one
engine per DISTRICT.
Also, there are somewhere between 90-100 HRAPS in R6 at John Day, Ukiah,
Enterprise, Wenatchee and Merlin.
Finally a topic that concerns something outside of R5!
Side note: Does anyone know how to get their transcript evaluated for the
401
series without applying for a 401 series job?
burn |
| 1/29 |
SiskiSam, Some pretty interesting number you dug up there, but I wanted
to give mention to all the IA handcrews scattered around R6. I started eight
years back on the Leavenworth IA crew which is bordered to the north by
Entiat, Chelan, Methow, Tonasket, and Colville (all with IA crews); and to
the south with Cle Elum and Naches IA, along with Ellensburg, and Wenatchee
DNR handcrews, engines, and helis. I know there are quite a few more
(especially in Oregon) but I don't want to gamble at getting all their names
right! R6 certainly has the most contract firefighters and support personnel
that I know of , but I don't want anyone to forget about the all the great
federal IA handcrew resources that get rat-holed every year deep in the
heart of good 'ol R6!
-HOG |
| 1/29 |
NorCal Tom,
Here is a list of the 14 "critical" wildland fire management positions
identified by IFPM. Each agency was to determine which of its positions were
and which were not one of these 14. At the bottom you will see "Fire Program
Manager" For most agencies those with the title FMO would fall into this
category. So a District, Area, Forest, Zone, Regional FMO should fall into
this category of IFPM. So a Forest FMO should meet the appropriate IFPM
standards. As you look around you might see these being applied/arranged
very differently. Some limited the number of positions on the unit that
would fall in these 14 critical positions to limit the impact of IFPM to
their program. Some made as many positions as possible to be 1 of these 14
in an effort to firm up their budgets (Congress will always want the fires
put out) in this day of FAR where all federal fire programs are having to
compete against each other for funding.
I am all for wildland fire managers having a college degree. And if you're
19 years old just as well be some sort of "natural resource management"
degree. However once you 40 something, and a GS-12 FMO I do not see the
value of taking courses in mammalogy, dendrology, etc. I would much rather
these folks take management and leadership courses or for that matter
sociology or psychology. These would do them and society far more good.
Right now this is as close as it comes to having any "common" terminology
between the 5 federal land management agencies on what to call who and what
it takes to be called it. An interesting exercise in enhancing
communications would be for folks from the various areas/agencies to supply
their peculiar working titles for these positions and (I'm serious here now)
what collar brass they wear, and what color hard hat they wear.
First Line Supervisor (Those that implement fire projects.)
Interagency Hotshot Crew (IHC) Superintendent
Helicopter Manager
Senior Firefighter
Engine Module Supervisor
Supervisory Fire Engine Operator
Initial Attack Dispatcher
Fire Project Specialist (Those that plan fire projects.)
Wildland Fire Operations Specialist
Prescribed Fire and Fuels Specialist
Prevention and Education Specialist
Initial Attack Lead Dispatcher/Assistant Center Manager
Center Manager
Fire Program Manager (Those that manage the overall fire program.)
Unit Fire Program Manager
Geographic Area Fire Program Manager
National Fire Program Manager
Small Agency FMO |
| 1/28 |
Ab,
I haven't written in much, but I was wondering if non-r6 Forest Service
firefighters know how few fed fire resources we have in R6. I had to laugh
when I read your regional FAM director wasn't communicating with fire staff
and forests and that FMOs weren't in on the fire resources & budgeting
process. I don't know if ours is. I don't know if our director needs to. I
do know that for all of our region's 19 forests we have only 16 engines, 6
shot crews, some rappellers ---- the rest are contract. (And private sector
resources are being cut this year one poster said last week.)
We used to have more fed engines and resources. TPTB decided to try a
different approach. I think the jury is still out on if it's better or
worse. Whenever I hear of a death, I cringe that it could be someone I know
--- and we can't afford to lose anyone. We lose too many.
I noticed that the hotlist couldn't get much info on initial attack fires
last season compared to other areas. Lack of info is not uncommon.
In our area, if it wasn't for the ODF, we'd really be up a creek. Could
this be coming to you?
call me Siski Sam
TPTB = the powers that be
Glad you wrote in Sam. Ab. |
| 1/28 |
Ab,
With all this talk about Natural Resources related degrees, biologist,
etc,
I have a question. Do any of the regional and FAM top managers have to
adhere to the same NR standards? I think Q has a business degree. Seems
to me that anyone who's new in a job should have to send in NR quals. What's
good for the goose is good for the gander..
NorCal Tom |
| 1/28 |
Fire Freak:
Some of my own experiences in the 401 series: I was hired as a GS-401-11
in 2001. In 2004 I applied for another GS-401-11 fire job, only to be told
by personnel that I did not meet the requirements for the 401 series. I
was pretty much outraged and I asked how this could be possible since I had
been hired as a 401 three years earlier. That day I picked up my mail at
home and found a letter stating that I qualified for a GS-401-12 and my name
was sent to the selecting official! At this point, I laughed.
Way back in the 90's I had begun my long ascent out of the 462 series, and
was told by a personnelist that even though I didn't qualify for a
professional series on one forest, to try again with my next job since each
forest could rate me differently. If your degree program was in the
college of natural resources in your local university, it might count,
while the exact same degree from another university wouldn't count because
it was in the college of letters and science. She said it came down to
some personal preferences by the person doing the rating.
Someone else has me beat though. She was told by a personnelist that she
didn't meet the 460 series because she hadn't taken "Dermatology". She
corrected the rater and said "you mean Dendrology".
midwest afmo |
| 1/28 |
Good 92 page Human Factors Annotated Reading List:
human-factors-annotated-readinglist07.pdf (1,628K pdf file)
NorCal Tom |
| 1/28 |
Concerning comments by USFS FEO and Strider about the 10 SFOs and 18 SSWO:
In 2000, a backfire operation in Montana's Bitterroot Valley resulted in a
lawsuit (a "tort claim") against the US Government. Here are some of the
comments that the US District Court Judge made when he delivered his ruling:
"the vague principles of the Ten Fire Orders
and other directives show that hard and fast rules are not
appropriate to all fires under all circumstances."
"each mandatory directive provides discretion to
the firefighter. For example, Standing Fire Order Number Seven
holds that a firefighter must "determine safety zones and escape
routes." But the firefighter must use discretion to decide what
constitutes an adequate safety zone based on the surrounding
fuels, topography, weather, fire behavior, availability of other
firefighting resources, time available to prepare the site and
other factors involved in fire fighting discretion. An adequate
safety zone may vary greatly in size depending on these and other
factors. The Orders tend toward vagueness. Standing Fire Order
Number Ten instructs firefighters to "Stay alert, keep calm,
think clearly, act decisively." This is the language of
discretion, not of specific mandatory actions or protocols."
"the Standing Orders and Watchout Situations,
supports the Government's position. These are flexible
principles to be used in fighting fire, an activity that depends
on firefighters' judgment, common sense, and experience."
Hundekot |
| 1/28 |
This is in response to a POST I read last Friday that named Doug Porter, a
Type 1 IC from the region 6 in the '90's, Those remarks I took as
disparaging. (I went back through the posts and did not see it again, so
I could not address the specific post.)
In the 90's, region 6 had three
type 1 teams. Doug was the IC of one of them and, for my money, ran the
best team of those three by a long ways. His team was always well
organized, efficient, put on-the-ground firefighters first and foremost, was
professional and used uncommon good sense in dealing with the myriad
changing of rules and regs we face every year. His team was always humble,
professional and service oriented towards the firefighters. I understand
he was an engineer in his day job and rose through the ranks on the
logistics side. There was no doubt in my mind however that he was a
LEADER, and his influence was very evident in how well his team performed
at every level and staff area.
By the way, in my opinion, the other two type 1 teams had
"Fire Guys" as ICs and were stumbling, barely competent, arrogant groups
(not teams), reflective of the IC's influence. A LEADER IS A LEADER IS A
LEADER; the leadership qualities that people choose for their behaviors are
not the special domain of the fire units. It is important that we find,
recognize, train and promote good leaders wherever we can find them. God
knows, we are certainly in dire need of as many good ones as we can find.
To Doug and anyone that knows him - Thank you. You did the job right.
Grumpy old hotshot supt.
Thanks for the input, Supt, glad you've got Doug's back. I don't think
the poster who named him meant to disparage Doug; he has said nice things in
the past. This is likely one of those situations where we don't have tone of
voice, expressions, gestures or other body language to interpret the nuance
of the message. Supt, I did put your testimony to Doug on the
Excellent Leaders page. Ab. |
| 1/28 |
To all:
Yea, something from Ed...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was some time ago when we began to examine in earnest the issue of
retention in our fire management workforce. And I know many of you are
hanging on – hoping for some news – any news. While I can assure you there
has been substantial movement, the information we've been able to release
is negligible to some and not enough for others. I have been asked “why
the big secret?” There is no secret; just a multi-step course of action
that will eventually lead to tangible results that will be shared with you
as soon as we can.
Deputy Regional Forester, Jim Peņa laid out his understanding of the plan
in an e-mail message of 12/15/07, and Regional Forester, Randy Moore
provided further information on the proposed timeline for taking the issue
forward and his areas of emphasis in his message of 1/14/08. I realize that
even those nuggets of information may not be enough to ease the anxiety or
to satisfy your need for more. If the issue were simple and the solutions
within our grasp, it would have been solved long ago. There were a lot of
smart people in that room in December, each fully aware of the challenges
presented by this issue and their responsibilities to represent you. I
believe that work will bear fruit.
Today, Randy Moore, Jim Pena, myself and others discussed the issues and
our proposal with the Washington Office, including the Deputy Chief for
State and Private Forestry. We were able to provide a fairly clear picture
of the challenge and its implications beyond Region 5. This issue is not
isolated to California, nor is it simply about pay... it is about the
ability of this agency to meet its mission in a rapidly changing
environment. That is a sobering fact that requires careful deliberation.
Next week we have the opportunity to discuss this with the Chief, and to
present proposal(s) that are rooted in the good work done in December.
Clearly the nuts and bolts of the proposal cannot be shared before the
Chief has an opportunity to consider it and decide a course of action. At
any rate, the agency must respond "with a proposal to increase recruitment
and retention for Southern California forests no later than February 1,
2008." as required in the 2008 Omnibus Spending Bill.
In the meantime, we have used this time wisely, refining the issues and the
options, validating the statistics and preparing for the questions that may
arise. I can only offer one small consolation at this time; I will provide
you a weekly update via your Forest Fire Chief during our weekly conference
call, even if it’s just “nothing new to report.” Based on the number of
inquires, I know that many of you are faced with difficult career choices
and that you want/need enough information to make informed decisions. While
I cannot assure you that the answer will come in time, or that it will help
you with your decision, I can assure you that your concerns are heard.
Respectfully...
-ed- |
| 1/28 |
Re Esperanza legal stuff: Ab,
I would say management is finally getting connected with High Reliability
Organizations and Human Factors research.
There's no way the 10 Fire Orders are specific enough to be hard and
fast "rules". Guidelines for engagement and disengagement of fire is a
good way to describe them, in my opinion. They're tools we should keep
close to us...
No doubt they will continue to be taught and will continue to be adhered
to to the best of our ability.
Thank you Randy Moore.
Strider |
| 1/28 |
Ab, I'm not sure if this has circulated yet but I found it interesting
that fish and wildlife have a higher value than firefighter safety.
JACKSON HOLE STAR TRIBUNE/ ABOUT A DOZEN AP
STORIES OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS
Judge threatens jail for Bush official
By JEFF BARNARD
AP environmental writer Tuesday, January 15, 2008Nevada Firefighter
This has been posted two times beginning around 15 January; thanks for
your comment. Ab. |
| 1/28 |
Re Esperanza legal stuff: Interesting note from Randy Moore (Regional
Forester, R5) which says that
the 10 Fire Orders are guidelines and are not hard and fast.
Didn't we all learn that the Fire Orders were not bent or broken? I
understand the 18 Watchouts are just that, "Watchouts."
Where is this train of thought heading? Is management disconnected with
years of safe practice in both fire training and fire operations?
Respectfully submitted,
USFS FEO
FS letter regarding OSHA Esperanza settlement agreement (55 K doc file)
OSHA informal Esperanza settlement agreement (167 K pdf file) |
| 1/27 |
From Firescribe: South Africa:
Devastating forest fires 'worst ever'
www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080127093506915C583203
The raging fires that in recent weeks devastated vast swathes of the
country's plantations and forests have been called "forestry's own
9/11".
Sawmillers, land owners and lumber analysts say that the fires, which
destroyed timber plantations in parts of the Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and,
most notably, areas around Sabie and Graskop, the main timber-growing
areas of Mpumalanga, were the worst conflagrations in the industry's
history - "and the fire season is not over yet".
"Over the past 25 years, we have lost an average of 14 000ha of trees a
year to fires," said Lance Cooper, of Nelspruit's York Timbers. "This
year we have lost 84 000ha. It's been catastrophic for both forestry -
we lost 20-year-old trees - and for the sawmilling industry." (more at
the link...)
Fire to Cause Changes at USFS
www.sbsun.com/news/ci_8082918
January 26, 2008
Written by Stacia Glenn
California - The U.S. Forest Service has committed itself to
correcting a handful of violations federal safety investigators say
played an instrumental role in the deaths of five firefighters in the
Esperanza Fire. An informal settlement agreement with the Occupational
Safety and Health Administration was reached Friday. Officials with both
agencies took eight months to hammer out the three-page agreement.
"More than anything, we're continuing to re-emphasize the current checks
we already have in place and renew our call to our employees that the
safety checks are there for a reason," said Forest Service spokesman
Jason Kirchner.
The Oct. 26, 2006, blaze burned over the five-man crew of Engine 57,
killing 44-year-old Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser of Idyllwild and
firefighters Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley; Jess McLean, 27, of
Beaumont; Jason McKay, 27, of Phelan; and Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of
San Jacinto.
An OSHA investigation concluded in July that six safety violations were
made before the firefighters died while protecting an unoccupied home in
Twin Pines.
The following are changes expected to be in place by March 31 to correct
the violations:
Fire officials will "emphasize the importance of timely weather
information," according to the report.
On the first morning of the Esperanza Fire, crews were not briefed on
the fire's status, Santa Ana wind conditions or danger areas before
going to fight the blaze.
The Forest Service will review risk-management policies to ensure
firefighters are equipped to make rapid decisions in risky situations.
The Engine 57 crew did not follow a commander's orders to move to a
safer area, although it is not known whether the instructions were
poorly communicated or misunderstood by firefighters.
Maps showing high-risk locations will be distributed.
Esperanza firefighters did not have maps of the area where they were
battling the blaze.
Forest Service officials also plan to incorporate lessons from the
Esperanza Fire in the agency's Serious Accident Investigation procedures
and to re-emphasize the "importance of risk management and the priority
of life over structure protection," according to the report.
OSHA officials could not be reached for comment Friday.
Fair Use Disclaimer |
| 1/27 |
URGENT - IMMEDIATE BROADCAST REQUESTED
FIRE WARNINGTEXAS EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS
RELAYED BY NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AMARILLO TX
320 PM CST SUN JAN 27 2008
THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS TRANSMITTED AT THE REQUEST OF THE TEXAS
EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS.
BEAVER COUNTY EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OFFICIALS HAVE REQUESTED A FIRE
WARNING FOR EASTERN BEAVER COUNTY. A LARGE FIRE LOCATED TO THE
NORTHEAST OF SLAPOUT IS SPREADING QUICKLY DUE TO STRONG WINDS AND
VERY DRY CONDITIONS. CITIZENS FROM ONE MILE NORTH AND EAST OF SLAPOUT
TO THE HARPER COUNTY LINE ARE REQUESTED TO EVACUATE THE AREA
IMMEDIATELY
As we say up north... Uffda!
SAS |
| 1/27 |
Hey all,
Guess it's ground hog day AGAIN. We collectively have been bashing up the
"Collar Brass" issue again. We collectively have been jumping on the
bandwagon of, "He isn't qualified, She isn't qualified" thing again. "He/She
wears Captains bugles but, they aren't qualified for the job" OK, again in
my mind we are only bound to the boundaries we create for ourselves and are
ultimately in charge of our future. If some one is making a poor decision
and YOU feel that it will directly change the course of your well being and
the well being of those around you,,,,,,SAY SOMETHING, PUT IT IN YOUR
ROLODEX OF EXPERIENCE, DO SOMETHING, don't sit here and complain that Billy
Bob or Suzy has collar brass now and makes more tactical f-ups now than ever
before. It is your job to decipher good from evil. Pass your knowledge on to
you crew, engine co's and battalion. It's what people take from fire
assignments, med-aids, etc.....NOT from what they might of learned in a
simulator or a 20 page paper fire course. That being said, IF YOU are not
happy, move on to greener pastures. But as you jump the fence remember, the
same pile of dog <snip> is on the other side, it's how you face it
and embrace it, IT'S still a stinky pile of dog <snip>.
By the way all of you are doing a great job, challenge each other, but save
your energy for bigger issues. Save it for a fatality free season, Hell a
fatality free decade. We all do the same job, we all were just issued
different colored uniforms. California isn't a Island, it's just a place
that receives a giant A## kickin' every year. If we need to change our
tactics until "WE" as a fire community can catch up, then so be it. I live
in the "WUI" and accept it's consequences. What I can't
accept....Fatalities....What I can't accept....he said she said. "UNITE
EVERYONE" or we will be destined to repeat our <snip> past. Raise the
bar as silly as it sounds........PEACE...
Driver51I've been educated by the back and forth dialog here. I can
see when and where collar brass would be important and when it would be
unnecessary. I now know who has permission to wear it and who doesn't.
Thanks TC for the regs. I can see why some in the federal agencies might not
want their firefighters to wear it. I can see regional, remote FS vs WUI FS
differences, generational differences and agency differences. I don't think
that anyone has been complaining, just engaging in lively dialog. Where's
the beef? Start a new meaningful thread you're interested in if you like.
Grab a bottle of your favorite libation and feel free to join us... peace...
out... Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Fire Freak,
Caught your "send us to the cornfield" quip. The current situation does seem
to
resemble The Twilight Zone.
Season 3, episode 73... Ironically, the episode was titled "It's a Good
Life".
However, if you don't go to the cornfield, you will end up being
assimilated.
With humor,
contractor |
| 1/26 |
The Front Country Ranger District and the San Bernardino National Forest is
deeply saddened to report today that our employee, Darren Coffey, passed
away early this morning (01/26). Darren was back-country skiing with two
friends near the Mountain High Resort, when an avalanche struck at about
1:30 p.m. trapping them beneath the snow. His two companions were able to
surface on their own, while search and rescue efforts for Darren continued
throughout the day. Darren was located at about 9:00 p.m., with vital signs,
and was airlifted to the hospital. His passing was confirmed early this
morning.
Darren, age 32, worked as a wildlife biologist on the Front Country District
since September 2004, and worked previously as an intern on the Mountaintop
District.
Although a wildlife biologist, Darren aspired to be a district botanist and
took on many of the district's botany projects including growing plants in
the native plants nursery at Lytle Creek. He was involved in the big horn
sheep project and he also worked closely with law enforcement and
Mountaintop District employees in helping to close illegal OHV trails.
Darren also worked on fire suppression rehabilitations, most recently
contributing significantly to the Slide and Grass Valley teams.
Darren really cared about the forest and the work he was doing. He worked
well with everyone and always tried to help people. He also cared a great
deal for his community, and volunteered time to work with urban youth
programs on the forest in partnership with the San Bernardino National
Forest Association and the Bobby G. Vega Foundation.
Darren enjoyed being outside around plants and wildlife. He was an expert
skier, and enjoyed backpacking and hiking. Darren lived in Wrightwood, where
he had many close friends and family in the nearby area.
Darren positively affected so many people, and he will be greatly missed by
all. Please keep his family and many friends in your thoughts and prayers
during this difficult time. Contact information for family condolences will
be forwarded soon.
Gabe Garcia
Front Country District Ranger
San Bernardino National ForestCondolences. Ab. |
| 1/26 |
To "ms"
Thanks for the kind words to my post. To be honest, I half expected people
posting "off with his head"!!
I can't answer all of your questions, mainly because I'm only a Fire
Captain. I don't know all of the requirements for BC, but what I do know is
our department does identify certain positions, i.e. Battalion Chief and
above, and require them to at least start the process of obtaining certain
ICS qualifications such as DIVS, Strike Team Leader, etc. We all have
idividual training programs, that certain ICS positions are identified as
MUST have.
As far as the ECC Fire Captains and Battalion Chiefs, as of right now, yes
they all had some type of field experience. Just recently our dispatchers
became "safety" members. However prior to that, Dispatcher Clerks were
"non-sworn", and promotional abilities were just about NIL, unless you went
out into the field and started out as a Firefighter, FAE and then Fire
Captain.
That said, with the new classifications of dispatcher clerk to
Communications Operator, I'm not sure if they will be able to promote up to
Fire Captain simply by taking the exam. Perhaps a CALFIRE ECC person reading
this could answer?
Since I posted my original post on the collar brass, just yesterday I saw a
former CAL FIRE Firefighter 1. He had worked 2 seasons for us as a seasonal,
and just this year went to the Forest Service as a Fire Patrol Technician.
Guess how many bugles he's wearing?---Thats right....TWO.
So if anyone is going to get upset, I'd be getting upset at your departments
for allowing him, who couldn't pass the Supplemental process for CALFIRE as
an FAE, and is now a CAPTAIN for the Forest Service.
I hope that at least some of you in the federal service see my point at
least with this example.
I'm fully aware of several Patrol Technicians that DESERVE the recognition
of Captain, however I've seen Lead Crewmembers on Forest Service Engines who
just happen to have a Class B license, wearing the bugles of an Engineer.
In CALFIRE, if a firefighter simply took it upon him or herself to place
bugles on his/her collar because they have a Class B license and therefore
could drive the fire engine, the department would take disciplinary action
up to and including termination for impersonating an officer.
Who in the Federal service dictates who can wear bugles on their uniforms?
Is it the FMO? District Ranger?
All I'm trying to say I guess in my posts, is that somewhere, someone must
come up with a very defined policy on who wears the collar brass, and it has
to be enforced.
CDF Fire Captain |
| 1/26 |
Hi Ab,
I had seen an article about the Garth Brooks concert in our local paper and
was wondering what the charity effort was about, so I looked it up. The
McCormick Tribune Foundation is heading an effort to raise money to help
Southern California recover from the recent fires (2008 Fire Intervention
Relief Effort). It sounds like the money will be given out as grants to
"nonprofit agencies providing aid to fire victims and first responders, and
their families, and will also support southern California fire departments
and organizations in need of additional or replacement fire fighting
equipment." The full announcement is posted here:
www.mccormicktribune.org/2008firerelief/default.aspx
I’m passing this along in case any They Said’ers might be interested in
applying for a grant. (I have no connection with this organization.)
Thanks again for your website—it’s awesome, and so are the Abs!If you
post this, you can sign me as "LTL" (Long-time lurker).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here’s the full text of the announcement:
2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort
A campaign of the McCormick Tribune Foundation
Sponsored by American Express and the Los Angeles Times
Garth Brooks responded personally to the devastating fires in Southern
California by pledging more than $3 million in proceeds from five
sold-out concerts in Los Angeles in January 2008, to the McCormick
Tribune Foundation's "2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort." The
Foundation has already provided $1 million in matching funds for the
first $2 million that was raised from concert ticket sales.
The McCormick Tribune Foundation has recently made available another
$500,000 to be used to match additional contributions at 50 cents on the
dollar, up to the next $1 million raised. Corporate sponsors
contributing to this effort include the Los Angeles Times, American
Express, Ticketmaster and AEG.
All of the funds raised, plus the match, will go to nonprofit agencies
providing aid to fire victims and first responders, and their families,
and will also support southern California fire departments and
organizations in need of additional or replacement fire fighting
equipment.
The concerts are sold out, but your support is still needed. We can't
undo the damage caused by the fires, but we can help our neighbors get
back on their feet, and be ready for the next time.
Please join Garth Brooks in this extraordinary effort, and give what you
can today.
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| 1/26 |
Been out a week on training so I will have to
catch up with some responses. I know it is long. sorry about that
Noname22: I appreciate your response to my last post. But
do remember that the Forest Service did not lose the "cop shop" as I believe
may have been pointed out. The LE&I part of the forest service just went out
of the direct line supervision of the district ranger in order to protect
the integrity of the investigations. There have been many an LEO who has
told me that they were DIRECTED TO NOT INVESTIGATE things by the ranger, to
later find the ranger or another line officer was involved in the crime.
Ajax: I was actually one of those ever shrinking
"firefighters" on the rogue siskiyou for a while. I do recall a lot of
paperwork going around with the new call signs and the proper collar brass
for each position, and the proper way to mark a vehicle. However not being
in the loop when Linda Goodman came around and was angry about being
introduced to the "battalion chief" I can understand that Mr Conroy might
have had some help in writing the letter.
KJoseph: in reading your post, you suggest that fire
"stovepipe". Being in the stove pipe, I can honestly say it is difficult to
be there. After a while you are resented for not being a "part of the
team" and not going to meetings etc. You are not understood when you work
longer hours then most and might be tired after going to bed at 2 am and
since you are working on your relationship with the district you get up at 7
am to go to a meeting that has nothing to do with you. All i can say is that
the grass is not always greener.
Hutch: No words other then great post
Palos: I agree 100% with this: ICS is INCIDENT
command, not every day command. Collar brass and call signs help
with daily functions as well as possibly the initial response. However once
the boots hit the ground on the incident, the brass goes out the window and
the ICS positions are assigned and used.
Hundekot: There are multiple reasons that fire and LE&I can
not simply be given to the local and state agencies. On the national forest,
the forest service decides what money is expended to supress fires. Also,
fire is not only fire. They are fuels management and usually the go to folks
for the other district staff positions when a great deal of physical labor
or number of persons are needed. The fireshop is a specialized group of
people who work in a rural environment typiclly who know how to stop a
forest fire better then anyone. As for the LE&I part, congress has placed
laws stating that the enforcement of Title 36 CFR 261 is enforced by the
forest service. Another agency can not enforce our regulations and quite
honestly do not care about whether or not a logger is stealing timber or if
someone is mudding through a marsh that contains an endangered species. Our
LEOs do care and many have other experince with land management. Also, I do
not see any of the hydrologists willing to go out and confront a group of
potentially dangerous persons (gangs, drunks, etc) about their campfires
during restrictions.
For the record, I loved my time in the FS as a firefighter and I love
working with the fire shop. You are all high speed, low drag folks and if I
need help with something I know where to go. I need you folks. I am mandated
to investigate possible human caused fires and without the fire folks I
wouldn't be able to do it.
Sorry this is long but like I said, I was out for a week learning how to
survive in the cold.
Guns n hoses
PS: To my R-5 friend stinky, hello. |
| 1/26 | Ab,
Not sure if this link will work, but thought you and
the folks on "They Said" might find this interesting!
(It's an article regarding contracts for firefighting
crews for 2008 in Oregon)
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories
Firefighter companies protest Oregon contract cuts
AP wire
SALEM, Ore. (AP) -- A group of private wildland firefighting companies
are protesting because their contracts were not renewed this year by
Oregon Department of Forestry.
Dillon Sanders, owner of Inbound, one of the companies affected, said
the decision is unnecessarily restrictive.
State forestry officials say 98 crews have received extended contracts
for the 2008 season, which did not include Sanders' company and about 30
others.
Forestry Department spokesman Rod Nichols said the number of crews
selected is based on the projected fire season.
In 2007, 132 crews were awarded state contracts.
Nichols said companies whose bids were turned down submitted estimates
that exceeded the cap of $45 per man hour.
In 2007, the cost of private firefighting crews was an estimated $55.5
million, paid for by agencies that include Department of Forestry, U.S.
Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.
Oregon-based crews often are sent to several states.
Sanders and others said $45 per hour is too low to meet rising
firefighting costs, such as the cost of gas, new equipment and training.
..Staying green until retirement
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