I'll go back add add a note to each of the Code 2 posts... Sure was fun while it lasted... Ab.

Some great monikers. Ab.

HAW HAW haw... on the moniker... Ab.

Do a Google search for "Backfire2000" and you'll get the court
document that has all of the Judge's rulings and comments.

Hundekot

No worries, two contributors wrote in with the info. Ab.

Thanks a bunch for keeping us all abreast of what is transpiring. I whole-heartedly agree with your last post. Your comments, and my perception of what's happening in today's world, have led me to conclude that much of the staff and non-militia folks are all in it for themselves. Seems as though the outfit(s) are crumbling due to lack of communication, lack of teamwork, and lack of leadership. By teamwork, I mean the FS as a whole. It ain't there, and please, someone challenge me on that one. Teamwork within the fire organization still stands out, but the rest of them could give a (snip). A&FM, hold yourselves together, play and work as team, lead your people, and you will achieve production and satisfaction!

-Picker-

Thanks for snipping your own "bad" word. Good one. Ab.

.....Once the forest fire staff has an opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.

Isn't that the problem?

Peace

In California, the vehicle code essentially says code 3 is lights AND sirens.
Code 2 is an old term to go to a call/assignment directy, but WITHOUT
the use of lights and sirens, following all traffic laws. Obviously on a
response at 2 a.m., the lights are going but common sense kicks in when
to to use the noise maker. Same as going to calls on the freeway etc.
Any questions though in Ca., CHP would be glad to help I'm sure.

Former Green Soldier.

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab.

• Code 1 - Available on the air (driving in a patrol type status)
• Code 2 - Respond directly (no lights or siren)
• Code 3 - Respond Immediately (lights and siren)
• Code 4 - All clear (the scene has been secured and is safe)

I have worked in three states (including CA) and this seems to be the
common use.

COS622

At least thats what this Forest and several others are doing.

TC

Is this a hint they're shifting FIRE into LE & I??? (tongue in cheek) Ab.

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's next post. Ab.

"Employees shall not use emergency lights and sirens while the
vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code three
responses shall be conducted as code two."

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I may very well be, but isn't a
Code 2 response illegal. Is it not Code 1, Code 3, or no Code?

If not, wouldn't a Code 2 response be considered as using the
emergency lights while the vehicle is in motion anyway?

If not illegal, then would it not be reasonable to assume that responding
Code 2 would be more unsafe than responding Code 3? Considering
that you're taking away an extra warning device alerting other vehicles
to your presence, your objective, I would think that it would be much
less safe.

Just Curious.....

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab.

~~~Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's last post today. Ab.~~~

Date: January 30, 2008
Subject: Use of Emergency Lights and Sirens
To: All Employees, District Rangers

Effective immediately and pursuant to FSM Interim Directives No.
5120-2007-1 and 5130-2007-2 employees shall not use emergency lights and
sirens while the vehicle they are operating is in motion. Emergency code
three responses shall be conducted as code two.

Emergency lights may be used while stationary to facilitate operational or
safety objectives as determined by the vehicle operator or his or her
supervisor.

Once the forest fire staff has an opportunity to fully review, understand
and implement the new agency directives I will rescind or amend this
direction.

All vehicle operators are required to operate at all times with the safety
of pedestrians, other vehicles and themselves as the primary objective of
travel. As a reminder:

• Come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red traffic control lights.
• Stop and do not pass any school bus with flashing warning lights.
• Adhere to posted speed limits.
• Travel at or below safe speeds based on road conditions, weather
  conditions, visibility and vehicle configuration.
• Obey all railroad crossing signals.
• Adhere to local regulations governing vehicle operation.

If you have any questions regarding this direction, please contact the Forest
Fire Management Officer.

I passed the names/phone numbers on to Driver51 who asked the question. Ab.

Ed doesn't go to BOD meetings anymore.

Many FFMOs are new and don't know what the BOD used to
initiate and accomplish in a unified way.

Seems that some FFMOs are hiding on their forests behind their
line officers so as not to be identified with R5 Regional Office.

It's a mess. The Forest Service is a mess. Someone told me they're
pressing to get it done before Bush leaves office. Don't know if
that's true.

Glad I'm retired and don't have to be in the middle of a melt
down in R5 communication and function. I heard at least one FFMO
is likely to retire before fire season. Maybe the retirement bubble is
being forced to burst.

Our cooperators should be worried.

Listen to me spouting negativity. Apologies...

NorCal Tom

noname fire

Matt

Ab, Please share the following information:

Services for Marc will be held
Feb 6th, 1200 at the
Faith Bible Chapel
6250 Wright St
Arvada, CO.

Please send all flowers or contributions to
Fairmount Fire
4755 Isabell Rd
Golden CO 80403.

Thanks to all for your thoughts, Marc's presence will be missed.
Take whatever piece he gave you and pass it on. His leadership
will live on through all of us.

LO

Thanks L. Sorry for your loss. Ab.

For those of you asking about services for Marc, we have received some info. It seems Fairmont FD will handle them but all is in the planning stages.

Shawna has lots of support from her crew and Marc's team with them organized in incident command style to deal with all necessary support functions. Her parents, brother and Marc's daughter are with her.

Cards can be sent to
Shawna Legarza
PO Box 785
Mancos CO 81328

Normbc9

Signed: We Don't need no stinking badges

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Round Robin within BLM, but the message path was not included:

I believe you are aware.....

Omnibus included authority to reimburse fireline supervisors for 50% of PLI
premiums. We need to implement in a coordinated manner between 2
departments and 5 agencies.

Wally J is the DOI lead to work with FS. Ahead is the determination of who
quals and then estab a process and finally a DOI policy/directive.

Sandy, will be a good idea to touch base with Wally

New language in 2008 Omnibus Bill.doc (28K doc file)

There seems to be a collective feeling with the folks that I work with that
we continue to hear about how we are the best in the business and need
to continue to move forward, but then the WO and RO force us to take
steps backwards.

Now more than ever, Fire Programs need to be managed by Fire
Managers who understand what we deal with when the call comes in.

That includes the calls that come before 0930 and after 1800.

SL

Posted later: Emergency code 3 responses will be conducted as code 2" was included by mistake. See Casey's post. Ab.

Oswego

KJoseph sent me the photo taken at Descanso in 1956. He mentioned Emmett
Donohue and here is a photo of Emmett my dad took at the annual CDF/USFS
pre-fire season meeting. This was in 1949 at the Flinn Springs County Park
just west of Alpine, CA. in San Diego County. Could you share this with him
and all.

1949 Historical CDF/USFS pre-fire season photo

Thanks,

Normbc9

Will pass any messages. Ab.

I like your number 5.

I asked for and got a automatic center punch for Christmas. Cool little tool.
Car of an acquaintance slid off an icy road and into a river and this kind of
tool, that breaks a car window and can slash a seatbelt if you can't release it,
saved her life.

One warning: Don't press it against your thumb to test it.

Mellie

Lobotomy said:

Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS AND SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often disproven without relevant facts being substantiated.

The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the same testimony that has been given for years..

The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and verifiable facts.

Here they are. Thanks, Lobotomy. Ab.

S. Hrg 110-11 -- Costs of Wildfire Suppression, January 30, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:34268.pdf (559K pdf file)

S. Hrg 110-58 -- Proposed Fiscal Year 2008 Budget Request for the Forest Service, February 28, 2007
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_senate_hearings&docid=f:35971.pdf (180K pdf file)

Since the mid 60's when I started in the automotive repair trade, I have seen more electrical problems than I care to remember.

That said, here are a few comments that I have:

1. All electrical circuits Must use properly sized components (ie; Wire, Fuses, Switches, Relays and Connectors) for the electrical loads they are going to carry.
2. Fuses and Circuit breakers need to installed as close to the power source (ie; Battery or power distribution block) as possible/practical, not at the component.
3. If electrical problems cannot be properly diagnosed and repaired at any particular repair shop, then consider having the vehicle towed to another shop that may have more expertise with electrical work. Wreckers and Rollbacks are cheaper than losing a vehicle to an electrical fire.
4. Most late model vehicles no longer have any extra places in their fuse blocks to add electrical loads (ie; mobile radios, radio and cell phone chargers, lightbars and other emergency lighting) and even the new battery terminals are frustrating. I like to use an insulated stud in a central location and run 4 gauge welding cable from the battery + to the stud and then run any other circuits that I'm adding from the stud using suitable components.
5. I highly recommend that everyone keep an automatic center punch in easy reach in every vehicle the operate/own. because they are spring loaded/operated they can instantly break any side or rear glass in any vehicle to allow escape in situations similar to the one mentioned in the safety alert and in particular in situations when a vehicle becomes submerged when other methods do not work! these automatic center punch's can be obtained at most hardware stores and home centers (Lowes, Home Depot etc.) and are not expensive.

Be Safe Out There,

Woody NCDFR

marc and team 2003
marc and team 2005-2006
marc by USNews & World Report (Brief www.usnews.com article, scroll down.)

Fair Use Disclaimer

Thanks contributors. Ab.

We've posted 3 new job vacancy announcements to the Jobs page. Check 'em out.

Ab.

sr5401, thank you!

My cousin lives in Brooklyn just across the river from the WTC and New Yorkers are worried about firefighters who were there and helped for days on end.

We had a number of wildland fire Incident Management Teams and individuals who responded...
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/nywtc_pentagon/sept11.htm 

Those of you who went to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon after 9/11 to help on our Incident Management Teams, please stay abreast of your annual check-ups and be aware of any lung symptoms you might have.

It's a shame and worse that firefighters who responded to 9/11 are not getting the medical help and support they need. Is there anything we can do to let our wishes for support be known to our congressional representatives?

Let's watch out for each other.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While not directly related to wildland fire, this is an issue that could have repercussions for the members of the Incident Management Teams that responded to rescue and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

sr5401

www.fireengineering.com/news/newsArticleDisplay.html?id=156713

9/11 worker's silent State of the Union protest
Newsday, Melville, N.Y. (January 29, 2008)

Jan. 29--WASHINGTON -- John Feal of Nesconset, had vowed never to return to the nation's capital.

The former demolition supervisor, whose left foot was crushed by an eight-ton steel beam while he worked to remove debris from Ground Zero, said it was simply too painful to be reminded of what he sees as the Bush administration's abandonment of him and other 9/11 responders.

But Monday, Feal, 41, gave it another shot, sitting in the gallery of the U.S. Capitol, along with eight other first responders, who are battling illnesses and other disabilities related to their service. Their presence was both rebuke and de facto demand to the Bush administration.

"I want to hear him say, 'I'm sorry,'" Feal said. "I want to hear him say that he's going to leave a billion dollars or more for 9/11 responders when he leaves office."

But Feal, who has set up his own foundation to help ailing 9/11 workers, admitted he is not terribly optimistic.

Earlier in the day, he and other men who became ill after working at Ground Zero appeared at a news conference alongside New York lawmakers and labor leaders, demanding the administration explain why it last month halted plans for a health monitoring and treatment program for Ground Zero workers around the country. They also urged passage of a long-term program to monitor those exposed to toxins after the Twin Towers' collapse.

"This isn't a political issue," said Feal, who has developed lung problems in addition to having 11 surgeries on his feet. "This is a moral and human issue. This is about people dying."

Rep. Tim Bishop (D-Southampton), praised Feal for the work of the Feal Good Foundation, but added, "he ought not have to do that. ... The public sector has the resources and it has the obligation."

Lt. James Riches of Brooklyn, an FDNY deputy chief who lost his firefighter son Jimmy that day, predicted that more people would eventually die from toxic exposure than were killed on 9/11. He has developed severe lung disease after search and recovery work.

"When I was down there digging through the pile, there was a gigantic sign, 'Never forget 9/11.' We hope our politicians don't forget us now," he said.

To see more of Newsday, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to http://www.newsday.com

Fair Use Disclaimer

On Friday January 25'th, Greg <snip> was in Yreka in his patrol vehicle
completing assignments. During the day, his vehicle exhibited a check
battery light periodically. Greg contacted Skip <snip> and the arrangement
was made to take it in to A-1 Auto for a check. A-1 was able to witness
the light activating but were not able to track it down to any problem.
The light simply came on and off with no pattern or obvious reason.

On Saturday January 26'th, Greg was patrolling the Snow Parks on the
Goosenest and stopped at 4-Corners Park to have lunch. Upon exiting the
park for the return trip to the office, his gauges began to fluctuate from
the low to high end and stopped at the upper level, this was paired with
steam coming form under the hood (smoke). Greg was able to find a location
to safely stop and turned off the vehicle to get out and check the cause of
the steam. The doors and windows would not unlock or open and allow exit
from the vehicle.

Greg reacted swiftly and turned the key to the on
position and was able to exit. He raised the hood and discovered the main
12 volt lead to his pump unit was burned to the bare wire. Greg
disconnected the wire from the battery and traced it back to his pump. He
found that at least 10 feet of the wire was burned and that when Serco
performed the install of the pump, they had failed to position an in-line
fuse in the main lead to guard against fire from a short.

The bottom line to this narrative is two fold.

1. Be aware that in case of a vehicle fire, the door and window manual unlock
   may be overridden and compromised.
2. If you have add-on equipment to your vehicle, make sure fuses are
   installed in the main wiring leads.

<snip original sender info>

Godspeed Marc.

SCR

Shawna, I'm so sorry to you and all in the fire community,
we lost a great friend... I met Marc when he was with BLM
on the INJO area and worked with him while he was with
the Boulder Fire Department.. My best to You.

JP Harris, LACOFD retired

Ab. when I was working for the forest service in R6 back in the late 80's for
reforestation. the Fire program borrowed lots of our planting money to pay
for some of the fires during those years...

MDS

ed-shafer-confirmed-as-secretary-of-agriculture

Ed Shafer Confirmed as Secretary of Agriculture
Wednesday, January 30, 2008

US - The United States Department of Agriculture has
confirmed that former Governor Edward Shafer will be
the new secretary of Agriculture, succeeding Mike
Johanns.

Meet the 29th Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer

(photo)

Secretary Schafer brings a record as an innovative
two-term governor of North Dakota to USDA along with
extensive private sector experience as both an
entrepreneur and a business executive.

Schafer served as North Dakota's governor from 1992 to
2000 and made diversifying and expanding North
Dakota's economy, reducing the cost of government and
advancing agriculture his top priorities in office.

<snip>

Secretary Schafer enjoys the outdoors and his hobbies
include bicycling, hiking, scuba diving and restoring
classic automobiles. He and his wife, Nancy, have four
children; Tom Schafer, Ellie Schafer and Eric Jones
and Kari Jones; and eight grandchildren.

more at the link...

I am deeply saddened to hear of Marc's passing. Marc was an excellent firefighter, leader, teacher, motivator, and friend. The most important thing I learned from Marc was 'always take care of your people'. It was hard not to have fun when around Marc, even when situations got to be a bit rough he had a way of keeping morale up while keeping the troops focused on the task at hand. He was a great guy that will be dearly missed.
My condolences to his family.
Godspeed, Marc.

Matt H

Vincit qui patitur. (The one who is patient wins.)

This Latin showed up at the bottom of his emails. Not a bad message for one fighting fire and responsible for others fighting fire. To me it says "Use tactics and firefighters appropriately. Safety first. Persist."

Godspeed, Marc. My best to his family. We've all lost a good one. Ab.

When someone as fine as Marc passes on it's hard to know what to say.
He was a good thinker, good strategist, cared for the troops, knew how
to communicate. He was a LEADER. It's hard to think that he won't be
around doing what he did well. Our loss, fire's loss. My condolences to
his family.

Roadrunner

Thanks. Well said. I understand your points. Changing % over those years also co-varied with the way finances were recorded and a lot of other changes going on, including an attempted shift to a new budgeting tool (that hasn't worked well). Ab.

"Quite frankly, no one knows where those numbers come from, whether they are 50% or 54%, or some other number. The reality is that there are people willing to quote those numbers and as importantly others that believe them."

Most important is the RESEARCH behind the numbers. A good Student of Fire would either verify or deny "the numbers". The numbers tell a story of a failing program since the 1950's and the folks who have the facts to justify their numbers.

WFHF should be included and focused upon, because it BECAME KING in keeping a failed program afloat..... just like the timber program.

on another note re the 01/2007 WO talking points:

Please see the Congressional Hearings that followed on PREPAREDNESS AND SPENDING (Senate and House) to see why "talking points" are often disproven without relevant facts being substantiated.

The questions asked by the committees were intentional and very well informed.... and well prepared in advance of the testimony...... the same testimony that has been given for years..

The questions came from the FWFSA membership with both citation and verifiable facts.

Lobotomy

Thanks, Lobotomy. That is certainly a good point about the WO talking points. You're a relentless researcher on Fire's behalf as are some others in FWFSA. Many thanks for that. Ab.

Intothewind, it would be great if you'd try to do that if you need to in order to make your point.

If I recall correctly, I heard it in a presentation last year by Tom Harbour, FAM Chief or Kent Connaughton, Associate Deputy Forestry Chief, WO. Might have been a tape. Does anyone else recall that presentation last winter? I may also have seen it as a talking point on some doc that went out. Seems like "fire budget as xx % of the FS budget" came up several times over the last few years as the number was rising. If it was being shared as a talking point, I'm sure it was shared over and over at different meetings. It was used in the context of being a budget red flag for the FS.

I searched on "% of the Forest Service Budget" with quotes around it and found the link in a post by Bud on May 26, '06. It referred the reader to the Director's Corner, Tom Harbour's corner. In his post of May '06, Bud said

The fire budget used to be 13% of the Forest Service budget. Now it's 43%.

That was in '06. Last year in '07 it was up to more than 50%. Bud's comments on 5/26/06 theysaid are similar to OFG's points, that it's simply what it takes to run the fire program --cost of doing business.

Here's the budget page Bud pointed to: www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/budget/

A bit more digging into the archives and here's Tom Harbour's email from 2/1/07. By later in March he was saying 50% or 54% and I think Kent C was saying that too. In 2007 the % had already exceeded their 2008 projection. I'm posting it next as it was posted just about a year ago, sent in by noname. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Management Efficiencies Talking Points:

Wonder how everyone will feel about this one:

• Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.

noname
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Management Efficiencies Fact Sheet
January 29, 2007

• Over the last 20 years the Forest Service has been persistently challenged by fire management costs.
• Contributing factors to these cost challenges include climate changes, the expanding WUI, and general forest health conditions resulting in larger more intense fires.
• In 2006, fire suppression expenditures accounted for 40% of the Agency budget or $1.5 billion.
• In 2007, 41% of the Forest Service budget is allocated to fire management, and in 2008 that percentage climbs to 48%.
• Because of these escalating costs, other Agency programs are suffering and our ability to care for the land and serve the people is compromised.
• Various internal and external groups have studied these costs and have provided over 300 recommendations intended to curb increasing suppression costs if implemented.
• The Chief directed a small group of Forest Service subject matter experts to review and consolidate these recommendations and develop actions the Forest Service can take over the short and long term to support sound decision making and ensure prudent choices are made when spending. The resulting recommendations have been titled Management Efficiencies.
• These actions were categorized into Leadership, Operations, and Management and when implemented serve to ensure the following.
  • Clear and concise understanding of Appropriate Management Response – choosing the best suppression strategy for the resources and values at risk.
  • Expanded Knowledge, Skill, and Ability for Agency Administrators responsible for managing large or nationally significant fires.
  • Increased oversight from the Regional and Washington offices on incidents of national significance in support of the agency administrator.
  • Severity funds are used within limits.
  • Establishment of a definite budget for each incident (use of SCI).
  • Critical resources (Type 1 firefighting crews & aircraft) are managed nationally for maximum flexibility.
  • Revision of the current aviation strategy ensuring the safe and financially prudent use of firefighting aircraft.
• The details of the proposed management efficiencies are being formulated and expected implementation of the short-term actions will begin in the 2007 fire season.

These recommendations go hand-in-hand with the variety of business processes the Forest Service has changed in recent years to more efficiently manage its resources.

Contact: Tom Harbour 202-205-08xx

Not sure if you have posted this R5 Fire Hire document or not. If not, could you
as this is good information for all those may have applied or are still on the fence,
since the region will be back filling once a position is filled.

Thanks,

noname on fire

"Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse that "my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've been there."

What happens when the Forest and District Fire Staffs know far more about the budgeting process (and where their budgets go) than new District Rangers or new Forest Supervisors that "somehow" come directly from the WO....... without any significant field experience?

Seems like what you keep calling "griping" is actually known as two-way leadership and communication.

Lobotomy

Yeah, I know that (but others reading may not). It seems strange that
"biologist" Series 401 was chosen to fulfill the South Canyon mitigation
for "professional". Thx.

NorCal Tom

Here's an article link from the theysaid archives:
www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/12/04/news/top/news01.txt

Tahoe Terrie

Sad news. We called and verified this information. Marc was the IC of the Rocky Mountain Team A (Type 2) for several years and was Martin's Rocky-Basin Type 1 Team trainee last season. He worked for Fairmont Fire Dept near Denver. Formerly he was FMO at Mesa Verde NP and worked for the Denver FD. Very sad news. Please let us know as you hear more. Thoughts and prayers for family, friends, coworkers and teammates. He was much loved. Ab.

"Which leads me to surmise, that if you don't know how
many IHCs there are, perhaps you aren't familiar with
all the other resources available in R6."

Saski Sam

Where did you get your information? The 1970 MOB guide?

There are 5 FS engines just on the La Grande Ranger District.

Dan

The fire budget process is indeed "interesting". Much of the funding which in the past had been handed down to cover various administrative services (personnel, contracting, procurement etc) has been eliminated. Program funds are now charged to provide these service, ie "user pays". So......if you want to have "someone" process your personnel paperwork (vacancy announcements, selection panels, payroll processing) money comes "off the top" and is sent to ASC.

If your forest wants some new engines or dozers, better pony up the money for the procurement or contracting folks, not to mention the fleet manager (what per cent of fleet are fire vehicles?).

NEPA is required for fuels work. Who's supposed to pay the "'ologists" and foresters for fuels related work? Yup, the fuels program.

There is no "free ride" for fire or any other program.

The "non-fire" folks are often the militia, and all the others whose work supports fire. Without the personnel, contracting, procurement, NEPA, public affairs and others, the job wouldn't get done. It is truly an agency mission to accomplish fire management. It IS NOT solely a "fire program" mission.

Those who truly wish to learn more, and contribute more, (and quit griping).....sit down and talk with your district ranger or forest supervisor. They'll be happy to share with you. And please....no excuse that "my line officer won't talk to us grunts". That's not true. I've been there.

OFG (ret)

OR
La Grande IHC - FS
Prineville IHC - FS
Redmond IHC -FS
Rogue River IHC - FS
Union IHC - FS
Winema IHC - FS
Wolf Creek IHC - FS
Zig Zag IHC - FS

Vale IHC - BLM
Warm Springs IHC - BIA

Also the list seems a little light on the index page
at: www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_index.html

Perhaps it hasn't been updated in a year or two.
Seems to me like some of the Regional Hotshot Crews
have made the step to IHCs?

Firepup91

Thanks for the breakdown. That table on fs.fed.us has a hiccup in the parent agency the way my computer reads it. Ab.

Wildfire since Carter, Little Bear, Peace

Sorry about that. I was looking at the ihc list wondering why the numbers didn't add up. "Research" has a call in trying to get some resource numbers. Dispatcher that was recommended is out of the office at meetings until tomorrow. Ab.

Is Warm Springs BIA as per the hotshot crew list? That would still be 10 FS with 8 in OR, 2 in WA. Ab.

Can someone find out how many FS engines there are. R6 is heavily BLM. It would be good to have accurate/ballpark numbers other than "it's not 16". Although, that's good to know too. Ab.

stop putting the spin that fire spending is at the rate of 50% of the
funds that the Forest Service spends.

I think you mis-understand and we're saying the same thing. More than 50% of the FS budget (I heard last year it was 54%) is congressionally appropriated specifically for Fire, Congress had in mind engines or fuel treatments, perhaps. Instead of that, a great deal of that money designated for fire gets tapped by FS District Rangers into paying for non-fire personnel. Someone wrote in that on their CA forest 4 non-fire people were paid for with budget funds mandated by congress for fire. (A great deal of it also got siphoned off the set up the Albuquerque HR Service Center, as well.)

One older'n'dirt forester told me that it used to be the FS was a "Forestry Department doing Fire". Now it's a "Fire Department doing Forestry". I don't know if that's true, but following the money suggests it is and has been for the last 5 or 6 years in many parts of the West. Part of the current struggle the "New Forest Service" is grappling with is how to reposition the agency with respect to its initial core mission and vision, "Protecting the Land and Serving People". To squeeze itself back into being a NR Department doing Fire, it will have to give up huge responsibilities in Fire and huge fire budget monies. If wildland fire leaves the FS, this might be as much as 1/3 of the FS organization and 50% of the FS budget. That's not to say it shouldn't reaffirm its mission/vision, clarify its function and streamline, get its finances in order, modernize accountability, etc, it's just that this is harder and harder to do as "mission creep" into the WUI has occurred.

A recurring and logical question has been, "Why not a National Fire Service?" Well, USDA (USFS) and DOI (BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA) would have to agree, for one thing and mission/vision and standards among so many agencies differ to some degree. In addition, all the money Congress earmarks for Fire would go to that Nat Fire org, and the other fed agencies can't afford to lose it (or control of it). What may be more palatable to the fed agencies is a stove-piped fire organization within the respective agencies like LE & I is within the FS.

The other thing that might happen is that Fire would come under DHS/FEMA. Now that might sound terrible, but maybe Fire could think of it as us infiltrating them with our values, training, attention to detail. There aren't many of them and there are lots of us. Just a thought.

I heard from a friend the other day that, at the National FS level, Fire is characterized as "Fire Thieves" as in fire is "stealing the budget" and that fire's "stealing the budget" has to be corrected. I would say "fire thieves" is an unfair characterization that is trickling down to influence regional attitudes toward firefighters and will influence non-fire FS programs that could influence firefighter safety. What those saying this don't understand is that blaming firefighters for the situation is like blaming the troops for the war in Iraq. OMB is doing it to the FS and to Fire. Firefighters have no more control than the FS Chief. However, characterizing firefighters as "Fire Thieves" does create a climate that is not safe for firefighters trying to do their highly risky jobs.

My two cents...

Ab.

Could you please confirm your number regarding only 16 FS
engines in R6 and the rest being contract? I know in Southern
Oregon we have 2 at Star, 2 in the Butte falls/ prospect area
and a few in Jo. county as well. Now we need to count BLM
too... they have 5 engines in Medford alone and numerous in
Bend, Burns, well all of eastern Oregon has BLM.

Just wondering about the numbers....

Could someone in the "know" in R6 please provide the full numbers for FS (and BLM and NPS) resources or give us a phone number to call and our research team will enquire. Ab.

IG

Intothewind

WFHF = Wildland Fire Hazardous Fuels

New Resources on Federal Taxation Available on IAFC Website

www.iafc.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=722

Some pretty interesting number you dug up there, but I wanted to give mention to all the IA handcrews scattered around R6. I started eight years back on the Leavenworth IA crew which is bordered to the north by Entiat, Chelan, Methow, Tonasket, and Colville (all with IA crews); and to the south with Cle Elum and Naches IA, along with Ellensburg, and Wenatchee DNR handcrews, engines, and helis. I know there are quite a few more (especially in Oregon) but I don't want to gamble at getting all their names right! R6 certainly has the most contract firefighters and support personnel that I know of , but I don't want anyone to forget about the all the great federal IA handcrew resources that get rat-holed every year deep in the heart of good 'ol R6!

-HOG

I haven't written in much, but I was wondering if non-r6 Forest Service firefighters know how few fed fire resources we have in R6. I had to laugh when I read your regional FAM director wasn't communicating with fire staff and forests and that FMOs weren't in on the fire resources & budgeting process. I don't know if ours is. I don't know if our director needs to. I do know that for all of our region's 19 forests we have only 16 engines, 6 shot crews, some rappellers ---- the rest are contract. (And private sector resources are being cut this year one poster said last week.)

We used to have more fed engines and resources. TPTB decided to try a different approach. I think the jury is still out on if it's better or worse. Whenever I hear of a death, I cringe that it could be someone I know --- and we can't afford to lose anyone. We lose too many.

I noticed that the hotlist couldn't get much info on initial attack fires last season compared to other areas. Lack of info is not uncommon.

In our area, if it wasn't for the ODF, we'd really be up a creek. Could this be coming to you?

call me Siski Sam

TPTB = the powers that be

Glad you wrote in Sam. Ab.

With all this talk about Natural Resources related degrees, biologist, etc,
I have a question. Do any of the regional and FAM top managers have to
adhere to the same NR standards? I think Q has a business degree. Seems
to me that anyone who's new in a job should have to send in NR quals. What's
good for the goose is good for the gander..

NorCal Tom

human-factors-annotated-readinglist07.pdf (1,628K pdf file)

NorCal Tom

"the vague principles of the Ten Fire Orders
and other directives show that hard and fast rules are not
appropriate to all fires under all circumstances."

"each mandatory directive provides discretion to
the firefighter. For example, Standing Fire Order Number Seven
holds that a firefighter must "determine safety zones and escape
routes." But the firefighter must use discretion to decide what
constitutes an adequate safety zone based on the surrounding
fuels, topography, weather, fire behavior, availability of other
firefighting resources, time available to prepare the site and
other factors involved in fire fighting discretion. An adequate
safety zone may vary greatly in size depending on these and other
factors. The Orders tend toward vagueness. Standing Fire Order
Number Ten instructs firefighters to "Stay alert, keep calm,
think clearly, act decisively." This is the language of
discretion, not of specific mandatory actions or protocols."

"the Standing Orders and Watchout Situations,
supports the Government's position. These are flexible
principles to be used in fighting fire, an activity that depends
on firefighters' judgment, common sense, and experience."

Hundekot

In the 90's, region 6 had three
type 1 teams. Doug was the IC of one of them and, for my money, ran the
best team of those three by a long ways. His team was always well
organized, efficient, put on-the-ground firefighters first and foremost, was
professional and used uncommon good sense in dealing with the myriad
changing of rules and regs we face every year. His team was always humble,
professional and service oriented towards the firefighters. I understand
he was an engineer in his day job and rose through the ranks on the
logistics side. There was no doubt in my mind however that he was a
LEADER, and his influence was very evident in how well his team performed
at every level and staff area.

By the way, in my opinion, the other two type 1 teams had
"Fire Guys" as ICs and were stumbling, barely competent, arrogant groups
(not teams), reflective of the IC's influence. A LEADER IS A LEADER IS A
LEADER; the leadership qualities that people choose for their behaviors are
not the special domain of the fire units. It is important that we find,
recognize, train and promote good leaders wherever we can find them. God
knows, we are certainly in dire need of as many good ones as we can find.

To Doug and anyone that knows him - Thank you. You did the job right.

Grumpy old hotshot supt.

Thanks for the input, Supt, glad you've got Doug's back. I don't think the poster who named him meant to disparage Doug; he has said nice things in the past. This is likely one of those situations where we don't have tone of voice, expressions, gestures or other body language to interpret the nuance of the message. Supt, I did put your testimony to Doug on the Excellent Leaders page. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was some time ago when we began to examine in earnest the issue of
retention in our fire management workforce. And I know many of you are
hanging on – hoping for some news – any news. While I can assure you there
has been substantial movement, the information we've been able to release
is negligible to some and not enough for others. I have been asked “why
the big secret?” There is no secret; just a multi-step course of action
that will eventually lead to tangible results that will be shared with you
as soon as we can.

Deputy Regional Forester, Jim Peña laid out his understanding of the plan
in an e-mail message of 12/15/07, and Regional Forester, Randy Moore
provided further information on the proposed timeline for taking the issue
forward and his areas of emphasis in his message of 1/14/08. I realize that
even those nuggets of information may not be enough to ease the anxiety or
to satisfy your need for more. If the issue were simple and the solutions
within our grasp, it would have been solved long ago. There were a lot of
smart people in that room in December, each fully aware of the challenges
presented by this issue and their responsibilities to represent you. I
believe that work will bear fruit.

Today, Randy Moore, Jim Pena, myself and others discussed the issues and
our proposal with the Washington Office, including the Deputy Chief for
State and Private Forestry. We were able to provide a fairly clear picture
of the challenge and its implications beyond Region 5. This issue is not
isolated to California, nor is it simply about pay... it is about the
ability of this agency to meet its mission in a rapidly changing
environment. That is a sobering fact that requires careful deliberation.

Next week we have the opportunity to discuss this with the Chief, and to
present proposal(s) that are rooted in the good work done in December.
Clearly the nuts and bolts of the proposal cannot be shared before the
Chief has an opportunity to consider it and decide a course of action. At
any rate, the agency must respond "with a proposal to increase recruitment
and retention for Southern California forests no later than February 1,
2008." as required in the 2008 Omnibus Spending Bill.

In the meantime, we have used this time wisely, refining the issues and the
options, validating the statistics and preparing for the questions that may
arise. I can only offer one small consolation at this time; I will provide
you a weekly update via your Forest Fire Chief during our weekly conference
call, even if it’s just “nothing new to report.” Based on the number of
inquires, I know that many of you are faced with difficult career choices
and that you want/need enough information to make informed decisions. While
I cannot assure you that the answer will come in time, or that it will help
you with your decision, I can assure you that your concerns are heard.

Respectfully...

-ed-

Ab,

I would say management is finally getting connected with High Reliability
Organizations and Human Factors research.

There's no way the 10 Fire Orders are specific enough to be hard and
fast "rules". Guidelines for engagement and disengagement of fire is a
good way to describe them, in my opinion. They're tools we should keep
close to us...

No doubt they will continue to be taught and will continue to be adhered
to to the best of our ability.

Thank you Randy Moore.

Strider

Nevada Firefighter

This has been posted two times beginning around 15 January; thanks for your comment. Ab.

Interesting note from Randy Moore (Regional Forester, R5) which says that
the 10 Fire Orders are guidelines and are not hard and fast.

Didn't we all learn that the Fire Orders were not bent or broken? I
understand the 18 Watchouts are just that, "Watchouts."

Where is this train of thought heading? Is management disconnected with
years of safe practice in both fire training and fire operations?

Respectfully submitted,
USFS FEO

FS letter regarding OSHA Esperanza settlement agreement (55 K doc file)

OSHA informal Esperanza settlement agreement (167 K pdf file)

South Africa:
Devastating forest fires 'worst ever'
www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080127093506915C583203

The raging fires that in recent weeks devastated vast swathes of the country's plantations and forests have been called "forestry's own 9/11".

Sawmillers, land owners and lumber analysts say that the fires, which destroyed timber plantations in parts of the Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and, most notably, areas around Sabie and Graskop, the main timber-growing areas of Mpumalanga, were the worst conflagrations in the industry's history - "and the fire season is not over yet".

"Over the past 25 years, we have lost an average of 14 000ha of trees a year to fires," said Lance Cooper, of Nelspruit's York Timbers. "This year we have lost 84 000ha. It's been catastrophic for both forestry - we lost 20-year-old trees - and for the sawmilling industry." (more at the link...)

Fire to Cause Changes at USFS
www.sbsun.com/news/ci_8082918
January 26, 2008
Written by Stacia Glenn

California - The U.S. Forest Service has committed itself to correcting a handful of violations federal safety investigators say played an instrumental role in the deaths of five firefighters in the Esperanza Fire. An informal settlement agreement with the Occupational Safety and Health Administration was reached Friday. Officials with both agencies took eight months to hammer out the three-page agreement.

"More than anything, we're continuing to re-emphasize the current checks we already have in place and renew our call to our employees that the safety checks are there for a reason," said Forest Service spokesman Jason Kirchner.

The Oct. 26, 2006, blaze burned over the five-man crew of Engine 57, killing 44-year-old Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser of Idyllwild and firefighters Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley; Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Jason McKay, 27, of Phelan; and Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto.

An OSHA investigation concluded in July that six safety violations were made before the firefighters died while protecting an unoccupied home in Twin Pines.

The following are changes expected to be in place by March 31 to correct the violations:

Fire officials will "emphasize the importance of timely weather information," according to the report.

On the first morning of the Esperanza Fire, crews were not briefed on the fire's status, Santa Ana wind conditions or danger areas before going to fight the blaze.

The Forest Service will review risk-management policies to ensure firefighters are equipped to make rapid decisions in risky situations.

The Engine 57 crew did not follow a commander's orders to move to a safer area, although it is not known whether the instructions were poorly communicated or misunderstood by firefighters.

Maps showing high-risk locations will be distributed.

Esperanza firefighters did not have maps of the area where they were battling the blaze.

Forest Service officials also plan to incorporate lessons from the Esperanza Fire in the agency's Serious Accident Investigation procedures and to re-emphasize the "importance of risk management and the priority of life over structure protection," according to the report.

OSHA officials could not be reached for comment Friday.

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TEXAS EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS
RELAYED BY NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AMARILLO TX
320 PM CST SUN JAN 27 2008

THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS TRANSMITTED AT THE REQUEST OF THE TEXAS
EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AMARILLO TEXAS.

BEAVER COUNTY EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OFFICIALS HAVE REQUESTED A FIRE
WARNING FOR EASTERN BEAVER COUNTY. A LARGE FIRE LOCATED TO THE
NORTHEAST OF SLAPOUT IS SPREADING QUICKLY DUE TO STRONG WINDS AND
VERY DRY CONDITIONS. CITIZENS FROM ONE MILE NORTH AND EAST OF SLAPOUT
TO THE HARPER COUNTY LINE ARE REQUESTED TO EVACUATE THE AREA
IMMEDIATELY

As we say up north... Uffda!

SAS

I've been educated by the back and forth dialog here. I can see when and where collar brass would be important and when it would be unnecessary. I now know who has permission to wear it and who doesn't. Thanks TC for the regs. I can see why some in the federal agencies might not want their firefighters to wear it. I can see regional, remote FS vs WUI FS differences, generational differences and agency differences. I don't think that anyone has been complaining, just engaging in lively dialog. Where's the beef? Start a new meaningful thread you're interested in if you like. Grab a bottle of your favorite libation and feel free to join us... peace... out... Ab.

Condolences. Ab.

If you post this, you can sign me as "LTL" (Long-time lurker).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here’s the full text of the announcement:

2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort
A campaign of the McCormick Tribune Foundation
Sponsored by American Express and the Los Angeles Times

Garth Brooks responded personally to the devastating fires in Southern California by pledging more than $3 million in proceeds from five sold-out concerts in Los Angeles in January 2008, to the McCormick Tribune Foundation's "2008 Fire Intervention Relief Effort." The Foundation has already provided $1 million in matching funds for the first $2 million that was raised from concert ticket sales.

The McCormick Tribune Foundation has recently made available another $500,000 to be used to match additional contributions at 50 cents on the dollar, up to the next $1 million raised. Corporate sponsors contributing to this effort include the Los Angeles Times, American Express, Ticketmaster and AEG.

All of the funds raised, plus the match, will go to nonprofit agencies providing aid to fire victims and first responders, and their families, and will also support southern California fire departments and organizations in need of additional or replacement fire fighting equipment.

The concerts are sold out, but your support is still needed. We can't undo the damage caused by the fires, but we can help our neighbors get back on their feet, and be ready for the next time.

Please join Garth Brooks in this extraordinary effort, and give what you can today.

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Firefighter companies protest Oregon contract cuts
AP wire

SALEM, Ore. (AP) -- A group of private wildland firefighting companies are protesting because their contracts were not renewed this year by Oregon Department of Forestry.

Dillon Sanders, owner of Inbound, one of the companies affected, said the decision is unnecessarily restrictive.

State forestry officials say 98 crews have received extended contracts for the 2008 season, which did not include Sanders' company and about 30 others.

Forestry Department spokesman Rod Nichols said the number of crews selected is based on the projected fire season.

In 2007, 132 crews were awarded state contracts.

Nichols said companies whose bids were turned down submitted estimates that exceeded the cap of $45 per man hour.

In 2007, the cost of private firefighting crews was an estimated $55.5 million, paid for by agencies that include Department of Forestry, U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.

Oregon-based crews often are sent to several states.

Sanders and others said $45 per hour is too low to meet rising firefighting costs, such as the cost of gas, new equipment and training.

..Staying green until retirement

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