Glad yer not sleeping in a tent tonight. Ab.

KC

Structure Triage and Defensible Space

LCES Flow Chart (NIFC Training Staff reorganized our Flow Chart and made it much easier to follow.)

Basic Fire Behavior Estimate

AB, the concepts that I have used are simple training tools to help what I call the LAY- FIREFIGHTER. In my training over the years, I've seen that the number of Firefighters who actually perform Structure Protection do it very irregularly. Even LAC has many interface fires, but in maybe 5 out of 21 battalions, and then with 3 shifts of FFs the chances of being on the first burning period are slim...

Regarding Fire Behavior, I have been through S-490, and was on the LAC RX burn team for many years, however I have always said what I received from Campbell"s Prediction Method served my needs ten fold of what I learned in the 290, 390, 490. And that is just my opinion.

To understand the concept behind the three documents above they are intended to be utilized in conjunction with Alan Simmons and my new DVD INTERFACE FIREFIGHTING for FIREFIGHTERS by FIREFIGHTERS.

To Tahoe Terrie and others who have already purchased this set, we are going to send out a revised Vol 1 and 2, as we added a couple of important issues. Also we will be sending out the 3 documents above and a written quiz as many of you asked for it.

Thanks to all. BE SAFE, Utilize LCES in conjunction with a FBE.

jp harris

Thanks, JP. The Basic Fire Behavior Estimate shows how Doug Campbell's method has been integrated into structural training as well as being the focus of Wildland Fire Signature Predictions courses. LCES (stands for Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes and Safety Zones) was coined and developed by Paul Gleason. Ab.

Location: SD-124, Senate Dirksen Office Building

Agenda: Examination of the FY 2009 U.S. Forest Service budget request.
 
Witnesses:
Mark E. Rey, Undersecretary for Natural Resources and Environment, U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Abigail R. Kimbell, Chief, U.S. Forest Service.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How To Use CapitolHearings.org

   1. For Senate Hearings, review the Congressional Hearings Schedule on the left side of the screen to find the hearing you wish to listen to. Committee names provide links to the Committee home pages on the U.S. Senate web site.
   2. Locate the Senate Hearing Room Number at the lower right of each Senate schedule entry. You may need to scroll right to find the Room Number. Room Numbers provide quick links to audio feeds of Senate hearings in progress.
   3. Alternatively, locate the Senate Hearing Room in the list on the right side of the screen.
   4. When a Senate hearing is scheduled to begin, click on the appropriate Hearing Room link. If no hearing is in progress, you may hear a tone.
   5. For House Hearings, click on "House" at the top of the page or scroll down.
   6. House Committee names link to each committee website. You will find the audio/ video link for the House Hearings from these Committee websites.

Mr Bishop, What drivers of changes in fire behavior does Campbell's method fail to consider adequately?

Tahoe Terrie

Ab, didn't you have a link to the Wildland Fire Signature Predictions article published in Europe? That gave an overview of what is, in my opinion, the best and most useful on-the-ground method of evaluating fire behavior. TT

Wildland Fire Signature Predictions (3,278K doc file)

There have evidently been some frustrations with the new S-290 materials and the FLAME section. It is certainly a challenge to teach new material on a subject that one has not taken themselves, and unfortunately some glitches crept into the final presentation materials. So I can understand the difficulties folks have encountered in this “shakedown cruise” of the new course. But let me offer some encouragement for persisting.

The FLAME section has been successfully taught in test courses and other independent presentations. Student scores on the Final Exercise have averaged over 90%. And it has been taught by new instructors.

But why do we bother with what it anyway? Here are some of the reasons.

1. Only a small fraction of S-290 students ever go on to further fire behavior training. The material in S-290 must serve most firefighters for most of their careers as the basic fire behavior training on which they base their life-safety decisions, from the newest member of a volunteer company to the hotshot crew supervisor. It needs to be the best we can make it.

2. The history of wildfire fatalities, as well as other non-fatal incidents, makes it very clear that firefighters get caught by changing fire behavior that they did not see coming. That is true even though they had taken S-290, and the fire behavior could have been anticipated. Simply looking at the present fire environment, as important as that is, does not always reveal coming changes.

3. Even when the threatening fire behavior was observed, firefighters have been overtaken by fire that moved much faster than they expected. There is a need to have a better sense of the actual time it will take a fire to move a given distance.

I agree with Tim that S-290 is a good and important course, and we ask a lot from it. But the sad fact is that it has fallen short in some ways to prepare firefighters to understand and anticipate fire behavior. In about ½ day of training the “FLAME Introduction” can provide a firefighter a systematic method that can direct attention to critical factors, and a means to make practical predictions of how fast fire will move. That is a very useful addition to the basic training that S-290 provides.

The FLAME process directly addresses the firefighter’s need to foresee big changes in fire behavior and to appreciate how fast the fire will move in response. It is a graded process that ranges from very simple observations, of fuel type and wind (the dominant change-makers), to a specific prediction of fire-spread time. The full process is taught in S-290 so that a firefighter will have the tools to serve them in any situation, but only the needed portions are applied on the fireline. That might be as simple as assessing the current and expected carrier and driver of the fire, and the next big change…nothing more than adequately applying the fireline order to consider current and expected fire behavior. Or it might be the prediction of a fire-spread time.

FLAME asks the firefighter to identify the fuel type and wind (effective wind, to include slope), what the next big change will be, and what the fuel type and wind will be after the change. In completing the Field Guide form, the firefighter methodically addresses the key information needed (and becomes aware of what information might be missing). A firefighter can then make very credible predictions of how long it will take the fire to reach a given point…if they need to. To simplify it any further is to potentially leave out something important.

However, a firefighter uses FLAME only to the degree it is needed…clearly not in full written form in the middle of a busy operation. With practice (in S-290 and at appropriate times in the field) a firefighter becomes more adept, and can often do much of the assessment mentally. But it will be a more complete and useful assessment for being conditioned by the application of the FLAME process. It enhances situational awareness. It also provides a refresher-training tool, and an organized means of reviewing any given incident in light of fire behavior.

We owe our firefighters more of the benefit of fire-prediction science in a practical form. FLAME can provide that capability. It has been tested against several fatality cases, and has been reviewed by fire scientists for technical validity. FBANs and others can provide valuable input to the planning process, but they can’t directly assist on the fireline. Yet that is where people do get in trouble when they don’t adequately address fire behavior.

Consideration of the Campbell prediction system is worthy of another whole discussion. Briefly, to its credit it aims at providing practical guidance on the fireline (and I fully appreciate Mr. Campbell’s intentions in that regard), but it doesn’t adequately consider the relative magnitude of the important drivers of changes in fire behavior.

To help instructors and students, the course materials do contain an “annotated key” that explains every entry for the exercises. And hopefully the “online presentation” can be available fairly soon. I’ll be glad to communicate with any new instructor on questions they have on the FLAME material. Any new training takes time to get on track, so please stick with it. We need to give firefighters the best tools we can to help them assess fire behavior on the fireline.

I’d welcome any of you in this conversation in a FLAME class that I give, and the chance to discuss fire behavior in light of your own experience. I think you can better judge the worth of the FLAME component of S-290 if you have had the benefit of learning it and the reasons for it, and I’d be glad to learn more from your real-world fire behavior experience.

Jim Bishop

Ab.

The reason that Esperanza is not being discussed in any public way is
that there's still an "alleged" arsonist being tried for five murders.

Sock it to him!

There's a new DVD Series that JP, Tony and Alan Simmons produced
that is excellent: Interface Firefighting for Firefighters by Firefighters. It's
at Alan Simmons' link on the Classifieds page.

Tahoe Terrie

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/retention/ihc-disbandment-memo08.pdf  (57K pdf file)

Hotshot

vfd cap'n, that workbook is copyright by the authors. Folks can order it.

Thanks for your information. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the
new direction that came out a few years back with respect to engine
captains, but supervision has been taken out of the equation and replaced
with complexity of your WUI, proximity to high value improvements and
regular and recurring all-hazard incidents. Plus working with interagency
jurisdictional issues. Check out Chief Bosworth's directive dated May 30,
2006, "Results of Review of Engine Captain Positions." This was all part
of the sub-committee that was put together in 2005 to come to an agreement
on the fire engines. The sub-committee agreed that supervision was not a
critical aspect.

I do understand FS policy as I am a union steward, so my comments are not
from the cuff. What I was not sure of was the CDL requirements. It looks
to me like CDL stuff is a problem that needs to be addressed..... Or maybe
not.

Former Driver Examiner, thanks for the information. So, do we have to
abide by Forest Service policy or the policy of the state that we live
in?

Fighting the good fight

Thanks J, interesting. Ab.

Thank you, Sir. Ab.

Which begs another question: which laws do federal vehicles of that type fall under, you've got multiple drivers with multiple endorsements from many many states driving these things around. Why is there not a federal standard license that all fed operators must have? Sorry for all the questions I have just been wondering about this for a while?

a2hs

While this quote is not of fire service origin, there are those that may benefit from its meaning.

It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. --Harry Truman

BDU Steve

Isn't that the truth; I added it to the Quotes page. Ab.

more info: www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/03511311/03511311.html

ht

www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4245382.html

John Caffin - Safety Officer
"It's so dry, we're just a dragging muffler away from chaos!"
"There are no secrets in the Forest Service, just a time delay."

Lewis Kearney - IC
"Whatever you do, Don't strut!"

JC

Haw Haw. Nice ones. I added them to the Quotes page. Ab.

Good job. Ab.

The Los Padres housing situation continues to go forward with no follow up from Forest officials to the many questions that are being asked. Management's decision to require a 5 year rotation for those living in a Gov house seems to me as a good decision. It gives a family 5 years to find another place to live and encourages home ownership. Although many can list pros and cons to this decision, I think in the long run it's a non-issue.

However, the second part of the Los Padres housing policy that requires those who purchased a modular that is on a gov pad, must move after 5 years is ridiculous. The new housing policy also says that you cannot sell the modular while it's on gov property. To sell the modular after your 5 years are up, you need to pull it off its foundation to the county road, make the transaction and bring it back to the pad. Ridiculous. While affected Los Padres employees are left to consider hiring lawyers and other representation, this is a still non-issue on the other Forests who continue to sell modulars on gov property.

My questions are:

• If this new rule was based on an OGC opinion, why isn't the Forest Service enforcing this on all Forest Service units?
• Why is this only affecting Los Padres employees?
• Can you imagine the effect this would have on our more rural National Forests?
• Are the words "common sense" ever considered in the rule of law? 

Casey or Mark - Any thoughts? 

Shameful.....

1. I don't think crew bosses, engine captains, and other single resource bosses should have their head buried in a paper exercise of marginal value.  They should have their eyes open looking at fuels, weather, topography and what the trends are.  Anyone at that level that should know that fire goes faster uphill than down hill and that a grass ROS will be faster than one in timber.  If they can't figure that out without running a model in the middle of a hotline operation they are in for some serious problems.
2. All models have their limitations but the proponents of FLAME seemed to have missed that point.
3. I had always thought that S-290 was one of the better classes that we put on and had always received excellent feedback from the students about the curriculum.  I have not had time to look at the class in the final form, but I am wondering what they took out to put FLAME in.  I don't think the students got the better end of that deal.

I think that I might be too much old school. 

Tim

• There is a direct correlation between # of people supervised and grade level and the cleanest way to drive grade level.
• The number of different complex tasks you do is more important than the number of times you do a complex task.
• Workload determines the number of people needed to do the job and has little bearing on grade level.

Sun Tzu said - "Know your enemy".

Paul Gleason said - "Be a student of fire".

So understanding how personnel policy works will go a long way in helping you get what you are looking for.

Outside Looking In

Simply said...... AWESOME work.

I'm glad to see the rank and file membership of NFFE, and the employee 
association membership of the FWFSA coming together for a common 
cause. That cause is so important to the survival of both the Forest Service 
and the federal wildland fire and fuels management programs.

Lobotomy

It is well done, isn't it. Ab.

I was one of those who managed to hammer out a response to the NFFE survey within the snug window provided. I was pleasantly shocked to receive a personal e-mail back from Mark himself. After hitting today's link and reading through the relevant documents on the Council website (esp. the draft briefing paper for congress), I am very impressed. Mark's folks have digested a significant pile of diverse personal experiences, thoughts and opinions on some complex and interwoven issues, packaging it into a logical, solid and well-crafted eye-opener for the folks on the Hill, all in short order. Well done! You and the indomitable Casey make one fine team to have on our side.

Old Boot

This may be new to some, but not to others. One problem with these upgrades appears to be a PD issue. Coming from the high ups in the Region 3 RO, the classifiers are having an issue making captains of a type 6 engine GS-8's because the PD implies that this level is only supportable for a Type 3 or 4 engine. I checked out the PD in AVUE and it seems a bit vague. It does say that it is a PD for Type 3 and 4 SFEOs, but, in the next few paragraphs, it states that "If operating a Type III Engine, the incumbent will be required to possess and maintain a valid commercial driver's license (CDL). So, what exactly does that mean? Are there Type 3 and 4 engines out there that aren't equipped with air brakes? Don't all drivers on an apparatus with airbrakes have to have a CDL with an airbrake endorsement? Please correct me if this is inaccurate.

Anyway, that is one of the hold-ups. Next week there is going to be a PD meeting in ABQ, to address the need for "National PDs" for fire related positions.

Fighting the good fight!

The comments posted on 3/18 THEY SAID by vfd F.C. were 
appreciated; as were Doug Campbell's remarks. I always wondered 
why NWCG doesn’t give Campbell's product more recognition.

Anyone else out there have thoughts?

JSB

JSB, Many of Doug's training points have been incorporated into NWCG courses. His US trainees are widespread in fire and many are now FMOs, other fire managers and FBANs. Some who are benefiting from his course are line officers. In the early days, the government wanted it for free, in my opinion.

I think fire history will show that Doug was a truly inspired innovator in teaching fire behavior. His method of evaluating fire behavior is the backbone of firefighting in many countries around the world. It has saved lives in Europe and South America to name two places he or his instructors have taught outside the US. 

Kudos, Doug. Ab.

Terry

"Surely these men gave their lives in defense of this country, for without the strength of our forests, water, and other natural resources, this Nation would not be a leader in the free world today."-Richard E. McArdle, Chief, Forest Service

Recommendations of the Investigating Team
A. It was strongly brought out by the investigation that better knowledge of fire behavior must be developed as an essential means of preventing future fire tragedies. (Then the rest of the paragraph elaborates on research, ICS, fuels, topography, aerial attack.
B. More experts on fire behavior must be developed for assignment to critical fires. These highly skilled experts would evaluate situations and assist fire bosses in making decisions for safe, effective fire fighting.
C. The investigators pointed out that in general, although not related in particular to the Inaja fire, present Government salary and wage rates make it difficult to obtain and hold competent fire control personnel. Controlling mass forest fires is a difficult and highly technical job. The specifications for these positions should further reviewed with appropriate Department and and Civil Service commission officials.

Seems to me that A. and B. have been done.

Not in the above mentioned report, just feelings from a ground pounder who has been to war, worked with the Navy, Marines, Army and Coast Guard and still wears green. I take no credit for developing the following ideas/ programs of pay that have and do work for other federal agencies.

1. Proficiency pay: ie. Jump pay, Hazard pay, Dive Pay, Combat pay, Rappeller pay, Linguistics pay, medical pay, flight surgeon pay, etc. Works for the military.
   a. Why not do the same for the USFS, BLM and DOI?
   b. For example: ICT5 extra nickel and hour, RXB2 extra nickel and hour, Smoke Jumper extra nickel and hour, Hotshot crewmember extra nickel and hour, OPC2 extra nickel and hour, DIVS extra nickel and hour. 
   c. Get my drift right now a Captain who is ENGB qualified and that is it gets the same pay except for step level as a Captain who is current and qualified as an ENGB, ICT3, RXB2, FALC, DIVS, OPBD, STEN, FIRB. To me the second Captain in this example should be compensated more and Proficiency pay is one way the military does it; why not us?

2. Average OT or 30% or some % of your overtime (OT) is considered scheduled OT and thus contributes towards your retirement. Anything more than which is now calculated.

3. Boot allowance or being able to use the uniform allowance towards boots.

4. Retention bonuses used more regularly. The military has found dangle a $50,000 dollar retention bonus and you get that high speed low drag highly trained sergeant, gunny etc. still serving their country and not a contractor or sub contractor trained by the US Government, but now costing us taxpayers three times or more in wages

5. Quality Step Increase (QSI) Now the USFS has a tiered performance appraisal plan, why not give those who achieve:
   a. Outstanding Summary rating - a QSI
   b. Superior Summary rating - a $2000 cash award
   c. Fully Successful summary rating - a plan on how to improve performance
   d. Marginal summary rating - should be on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP)
   e. Unacceptable summary rating - PIP and be prepared for finding new line of work if.

These ideas above are not new and some Forests actually use the Retention Bonus system to keep their programs functioning. We are better off than we were ten years ago when most engines had a Captain GS-7, Engineer GS-6, AFEO GS-05 and that was it.

One last note: with the increased work load maybe desk audits are in order. Squadies to GS-07, Captains to GS-09, ADFMO to GS-10's and convert apprentices to GS-06 Step 5. With the apprentices starting them at step 5 levels out with promotions. We need to keep as many folks from all ranks from leaving the organization.

Signed: enough babbling for now

Thanks,

JOHN

Thanks for the info John. Ab.

Ab,

If these rules are Forest Service rules, why are they only being enforced on Los Padres employees. Forget about the housing rotation for Forest Service houses, that is management's right. However being told you need to leave you module home after 5 years and you cannot resale it while it's on Gov property is not fair. The more pressure we can put on this the better chance we can get this overturned. It's in the regions hands now. They should be the ones getting letters from FWFSA requesting them to stand down from this new policy.

ms
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File Code: 1600-1
Date: March 11, 2008
Casey Judd
Business Manager, Federal Wildland Fire Service Assn.

Dear Mr. Judd:
Thank you for your recent letter concerning the Los Padres National Forest quarters policy.

As Forest Supervisor, I am responsible for the fair and equitable assignment of Government housing on the Los Padres NF. To that end, I have approved a revised quarters policy that is intended to: 1) provide greater consistency in the assignment and management of housing among our ranger districts; 2) provide us with the flexibility to meet changing employment conditions; and 3) make housing available to a wider segment of employees now and into the future. The new quarters policy also brings us into compliance with U.S. laws and regulations, Department and Agency policies, and ethics rules contained in the following:

* 5 U.S.C. 5991(e);
* 18 U.S.C. Sec. 208; 5 CFR Part 2635 Subparts D, E and G;
* Forest Service Manual 6445.03
* Forest Service Manual 6445.04c;
* Region 5 Supplement to Forest Service Manual 6400-92-2;
* OMB Circular Nos. A-11 and A-45.

The new policy appropriately reaffirms Government quarters as primarily “transitional” in nature, providing employees with an opportunity for interim housing until they can find permanent housing in their community.

I am very aware of the financial challenges and stress our employees face living and working in this high cost-of-living area. It is unfortunate that deficiencies in past housing practices on this Forest were not remedied earlier; however, now that we are aware of the problems, we cannot allow them to continue into the future. While it does not mitigate all employee concerns, the new quarters policy does include a “transition plan” to help soften the impacts to existing tenants.

If you have specific questions about the new quarters policy, please contact me or Deputy Forest Supervisor Ken Heffner at (snip).

Sincerely,

/s/ Peggy Hernandez
PEGGY HERNANDEZ
Forest Supervisor

Readers, I'm posting this expecting no reply from Casey. He's busy working the DC stuff. The logic and, I expect, the legal ramifications of your criticism are excellent, ms. Thanks for this. Ab.

Cibola National Forest, incendiary device

I posted the BLM alert on the Hotlist. www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=16418#post16418 Ab.

Posted there by SCR. Ab.

Your practical question has got me thinking. On a wildfire, does water in tank
equate to air in lungs? Is water in tank a vital element to LCES? What if you're
down to your last 75 or 100 gallons and a spot pops up by your hose lay,
threatening your work, not your life? If you do need that last bit for engine
protection, what if something breaks?

Water management is important, but running out should be an AAR topic, not
a "time out". (Especially these days) if water and pump capability is a matter of
survival, it time to change tactics.

#9

Thanks, Mark. Ab.

And since the government is pitching in for people to take classes to meet their 401 quals is there a program to help pay for a masters? If the government is looking to keep and retain good qualified employees I would think there is some program. Thanks.

Future FMO

Thanks, Casey. Ab.

FS_080314_PLI.doc
FS_080314_PLI_List.doc
FS_080314_PLI_Procedures.doc

Another waste of agency money and time:

I do have a BSc. and MSc. in Forestry and went the fire management route.
Despite all that coursework, I was told I had to go to all the NWCG courses
"just so they were on my records..."    So why bother to have to qualify for
401 if you show up with a degree or two and the agency still spends the
time and money to "educate" you?

R1 Blockhead

OR-

B. Combination of education and experience: courses equivalent to a
major in biological sciences, agriculture, natural resources
management, or at least 24 semester hours in biological sciences,
natural resources, wildland fire management, forestry, or
agriculture equivalent to a major field of study, plus appropriate
experience or additional education that is comparable to that
normally acquired through the successful completion of a full 4-year
course of study in the biological sciences, agriculture, or natural
resources.

Typically not! Usually you’ll see statements, as an example: “Must have a bachelors degree in business administration plus 2 years of equivalent experience in the business industry”. They don’t chop up college degrees, because they are not qualified or certified by the board of education, to determine which course counts and which does not.

Who in OPM or agency personnel specialist are qualified/certified to make those determinations to slaughter college degrees?

My degree has nothing to do with natural resources, but I made the choice to make a career out of wildland fire management, started out as a GS-3 and worked my way up to a GS-12. Yep! I had to go through TFM to qualify for 401. At that time in my career, TFM taught me nothing. I already had the TFM course work knowledge, through government training programs (resource and NWCG), plus 20 years of experience with land management agencies in fire.

Don’t get me wrong, degrees are good, but they should not be picked apart. Any type of 4 year degree should be counted, especially when weighting equal applicants, the person with the degree would probably get the job, but a degree should not be a requirement for a wildland fire management job.

Our specialized education comes with the job as we move up the ladder, no college degree can be substituted for it. 27 years of wildland fire experience has provided me with a PHD in NWCG.

Think about it folks, how many hours through out a wildland fire career do we spend in class? Now weight that to how many hours it takes to get one 4 year degree, I’ve got about 11 B.S. degrees.

Signed;
PhD of NWCG

Anyone with a shower service in/near CO- I've got a few questions...

What are the daily rates?
Is there any availability right now?
Do you need on-site water or can you truck it in?
Would anyone be able to donate services?

In case folks have missed it there is a salmonella outbreak in Alamosa Co. The local citizens are unable to use water for showers or anything other than flushing the toilet. So far it has been determined that the salmonella outbreak has affected more than 200 people and is waterborne.

People will most likely not be able to use tap water for weeks.

This is a local/state disaster with limited- but some resources. Here is a link to an article.
www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-salmonella25mar25,1,7228809.story

Ab- can you forward any information to me? I want to pass it onto a friend who is working with some of the health folks. Apparently someone floated the idea of bringing showers in for the responders/community to a few folks and they were unsure how to implement this.

CO- I know you've to the resources... anyone got some contacts?

Thanks,

GISgirl (from CA in FL and thinking of those CO citizens)

Hotlist thread here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3470

A large grass fire in Dewey County injured several firefighters Monday night,
including one being treated for second-degree burns, officials said.

One firefighter was taken by helicopter to an Oklahoma City hospital with
second-degree burns to his hands and lower legs and three firefighters were
treated for heat exhaustion and smoke inhalation, Dewey County Undersheriff Clay
Sander said.

The fire, which burned nearly 9,000 acres, was extinguished by 9 p.m. without
any damage to homes or buildings, but did damage a Cheyenne fire department
truck, Sander said. (More at link above)

TC

I'm on the road until Sunday and don't have easy ability to upload any attachments. Ab.

I think we have a good video for you. We're at a workshop right
now....we'll contact you next week.

Regards,

Chester Fly Crew

After talking with one of their staff and reviewing their website, it’s easy to believe they take their mission, “to lead in the development, manufacture and sales of new and innovative fire products” and commitments, “to provide reliable service and to be innovative within a competitive price structure”, seriously.

As shown on their website, Thermo-Gel ® products are available from distributors throughout the United States. Two of them, National Firefighter and Mallory Fire, are also featured on our Classified Page. As always, we encourage you all to give our supporters the first chance to meet your needs. OA

To the BLM Engine Captain,

Your statement “Education is one thing that can separate employees equally.” Thus having the government pay for folks that truly want to go and learn is what levels out the playing field to some degree, when it comes to formal education. I know many and am one who worked to go to college earning a days wages for a days labor and then going to school at nights and weekends when there was a college in commuting range. Some folks have their college paid for or earned scholarships for hard work, dedication, grades and/or physical abilities. Many other in this nation join the Armed Forces for the GI bill and college Fund. Anyhow anyway we get more folks educated the better off we are I believe.

A Division Group Supervisor usually takes 15 plus seasons of wildland firefighting or more to achieve. A four year college degree may take four or more years to achieve. I am thankful that the government will pay for higher education. On a tangent, I am not thankful that managers shut down applications for boot camp and TFM and they never make into the pool. I thought the word application meant to apply. Persevere to Endure and patience, persistence and prayer don’t hurt. Managers’ vs Leaders? Hmm I like a good leader out in the field and good manager in the warehouse.

Signed Forestry Technician/Wildland Firefighter Livin the dream baby!

www.washingtonpost.com

Forest Service May Move to Interior
Some See Agency As Out of Place Under the USDA

In Washington, the organizational chart helps bring order to chaos, sorting the many federal agencies of the vast bureaucracy into manageable boxes. Among some lawmakers who hold the purse strings, there is a belief that the U.S. Forest Service is out of place.

The 103-year-old agency, which manages 193 million acres of forests and grasslands, is part of the Department of Agriculture. Its bureaucratic cousins -- the National Park Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the Bureau of Land Management, which manage 84 million acres, 96 million acres and 258 million acres of public land, respectively -- are in the Interior Department.

Hi Ab,

I agree that a simple 401 qual is not going to "create" a better firefighter. There is no substitute for years of suppression experience. It is understandable that those 40-something FMOs are resistant to education after years of successful performance without a degree. I am trying to be objective as I am pushing 40, have 18 years experience, and posses the 401 qualification.

The first thing the 401 qual brings to an employee is credibility. Sure the old fire dog has the respect of the line officer when smoke is in the air, but does that change any of the winter budgeting and planning processes for fuels or FPA? Believe it or not paper quals mean a lot to the folks that paid their dues "ologists", that said; being qualified on paper is nothing if one does not have the brainpower and ability to support, oppose, or compel others to make a decision. The fact remains that managers "outside" of fire sign off on Burn Plans, Fire Management Plans, Fire Use Plans, and yes Fire and Fuels Budgets. Having fire managers with the background to plan and defend is a must when dealing with ologists on every level. To participate with or lead an Interdisciplinary Team, one must be able to speak the language and not be confused when a "scientist" dominates the discussion. Firefighters are not in charge of "Managing" public lands. A group of ologists supposedly has the responsibility to manage the black spot left behind years after rehab. So during the "off" season, it is not a bad thing to have an "educated" fire manager, or hopefully a group of them. Simply saying "bull" doesn't cut it anymore.

The pros and cons are many. The cost is certainly high. (you aren't in it for the money, right?) If you want to fight 401 that is your right. If you want to be proactive, apply for TFM or UNLV. You could even enroll online (out of pocket, because you are already an expert in planning, budgeting, and economics by now) and get a degree from Oregon State never having set foot on campus. The final outcome is probably years away, but if you are truly an old fire dog, you will figure out a way to adapt and overcome. It is time to look deep into the issue and find out why 401 is important to our institutionalized agencies; liability comes to mind. I have faith in you to continue in your current position happily or go back to school and compete at the next level for the job and lifestyle that you love! It won't make you a better firefighter short term, it could make you a better fire manager long term. My vote is for better fire managers across the board.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

KT

I met with Ellreesse's Federal Public Defender Tina Hunt here in
Missoula on Thursday: she seems well prepared for the May 5th trial
date, and hopes that the Judge will approve a site visit for the jurors.
We talked about many of the issues that are well known to all of us, as
well as some tactics and qualifications issues.
Tina still expects a 6+ week long trial.
There will be lots of witnesses, especially on the Government side,
telling their stories about what they saw, heard, were told,
experienced. The 10/18 will be an important focus!
Maybe by July 1st, we'll have a clearer picture of the impacts of this
attempted mis-carriage of justice.
Tina was highly complimentary of many of the R-6 Fire Overhead that she
has interviewed.
She encouraged firefighter attendance in support of Ellreese at the
trial, yellow Nomex shirts and all!
Keep the Faith!

Dick Mangan

Forest Service Fire Folks, this note came in Ab.

A First Responder Medical course is scheduled for next month at McClellan WFTC.
Forests that have been finding difficulty providing this training are encouraged to send
students to this class.

If you have questions regarding who is required to attend First Responder Medical
training see the Manual Supplement.

It is with deep regret and sorrow that I must inform you that Dave Edgar passed away today, March 24, at approximately 5:25 p.m.

We will follow up with more information but wanted to get word out as quickly as possible. Please watch for more information soon.

Once again, the family has asked me to express that they truly appreciate the support and concern they've received from so many folks during this difficult time.

Our deepest condolences go out to Dave's family, friends and co-workers. Please continue to keep them all in your thoughts and prayers.

Valerie E. Baca
Public Affairs Officer, BDF

Steve Shaw
Superintendent, Diamond Mountain IHC

I'll pass any info along or you can email Steve... Ab.

I've added this to the Free Ellreese page. Thanks for the info, Dennise. Ab.

Steve S.

Thanks Steve. I put it on Airtankers 24. Ab.

There are two cobras I know of used by the Forest Service, one is out of Redding
Ca, and the other somewhere out of So CAL.

I know they are FLIR capable, do a lot of mapping and sometimes are used as air
attack. they are also capable of sending real-time thermal video to people on the
ground. That is about all i know about them.

DJP

Some nice photos of the Warm Fire 2006, posted on Engines 19 and Fire 36 and Helicopters 23. Thanks to KL. Ab.

This is one of our fire helicopters working in the island of Menorca. If you want
more photos from the Balearic Forest Service, just ask! This photo was taken
on the island of Menorca (in the Balearics, Spain) August 1, 2006. Photo was
taken by an 11 year old girl out her dining room window.

Josep Maria Mayor Perez

Thanks, I put it on Helicopters 23 photo page. Ab.

You're right that '40' something Fire Managers shouldn't get thrown out of their jobs
because of the new 401 series, but should people in 401 series be thrown out if they
don't "qual out" by 2009 also.

The 401 series is probably the best series I can see at this time. I would like to see
another series, but a lot of the work fire fighters do is in timber, recreation, trails,
wildlife, and other similar disciplines. Fire Managers are the ones working with other
"ologists" to get this work done. A lot is due to saving 2810 money etc.

Formal education should be the foundation we build our fire knowledge on to. It is
beneficial these days because of NEPA work, complicated fire software (BEHAVE
etc), and not to mention public contact.

Should new firefighter be "fostered along" with their education? Not GS-3's and 4's
but permanent 5's and beyond.

No one knows what's going on in HR shops. One day you'll rate out as a GS-5 the
next you might be a GS-9. Anybody's guess.

All this and what you mentioned before need to get addressed, and I know there are
"wheels turning" to do so. I'm not foreseeing any questions answered in the near future.

We'll see,
R5 BLM Engine Captain

Thanks for the reply. Ab.

My best to all in this community on this fine Easter day. Ab.

R5 BLM Engine Captain I appreciate what you're saying. Saying that is fine for 20-somethings, but not for 40-somethings who have been doing a professional fire job for years and who live and work in areas very remote from any college campus. Agencies and organizations have historically offered additional professional training to career employees.

There has to be some way to make this equitable for all. I haven't heard too much wining about going to school and bettering yourself, only about the type of subject matter that makes you a "fire professional" and that getting the number of units of education is difficult with all the other responsibilities of your FS job.

If we want to discuss this, the issues need to be separated out, not reacted to in a knee jerk fashion. Let's brainstorm the issues.

• Why doesn't Series 401 work for FS firefighters?
• What would work better? Why?
• In this day and age, is more education of the right sort reasonable?
• Should anyone who's a professional firefighter manager in their jobs for years be "fostered along" to achieve the quals?
• If people don't meet the 401 requirements by the 2009 deadline, what happens to our firefighting work force? How much will it be decreased by? What are the safety concerns and can we mitigate the safety concerns that go along with that decrease?
• Why do some HR shops recognize some as having the 401 while others do not?

And I could go on... Am I missing any? Ab.

Thanks for the kind words. However, I can't make any claim to expertise concerning the use of cell phones and radios while driving. That must have been another poster. And oops on the "Foscheck;" I had even Googled it and came up with that spelling, but didn't notice that it wasn't the company's site. (Try picturing a Phos-Check truck when you really need to. Maybe I just need to be smelling smoke in order to spell correctly?)

Still Out There as an AD

www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/03/23/news/local/news03.txt

Dick Mangan

• pic 004 is Myakka (my District) - 44/45 a 2007 Sterling transport with a 2006 John De