Check out our Home page, the Wallpaper page and Fire36 photo page with an eye on the photos. "Bubba" McConnell has sent in some great flames photos he took during the Ft Carson fire the week of April15. The photo on the home page will be a candidate for the '09 wildlandfire.com calendar for sure.

Remember as you're out an about this season to take some photos. Ab.

Your post from 4/24 was moving. You're absolutely right, we have to do
better, as an agency and as people. You have a strong sense of hope.
I just got done with a three day symposium on fire ecology in the Klamath
Region, and a take home message was hope. Hope that, given the knowledge
base we have, that better decisions will be made in the future. Its seems
to me that many are full of hope right now, hope for better leadership, better
pay, better representation. I have hope that the agency will see the great benefit
of Appropriate Management Response (AMR), a topic much discussed
during the symposium. It will be a better day when we recognize that not
all fires must be suppressed and alot of resources are simply not more
valuable than the life of a fire fighter.

Klamathman

Here is a website that has close to a hundred R5 Vacancies if not more
that should be known to the Regional Staff. They are not completely up to
date as we have a GS-07, GS-06 and Senior FF positions not listed for our
district handcrew that is shut down due to unstaffed positions. Our
district has no Senior FF positions filled for 5 engines.

This website shows open positions for GS-06 thru GS-11 in R5 for
overhead, hand crews, engines, helitack, and prevention.

www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/trackingdb/postings.html

signed just another North Zone Captain

Some of us knew, and more do today, that fatigue is a common factor in many major events such as Thirtymile. Missoula has produced research showing that a 24 hour shift can cause situational awareness loss similar to that of intoxication.
When one looks at the timeline, and reads the report, it is apparent that all members must have been into advanced stages of fatigue. To assign "blame" to a person who reacts to fatigue in a predictable manner is futile and counter-productive.

What can/has been done to prevent future tragedies?

My unit will not dispatch resources to an extended attack incident late at night. Why create a "fatigue" situation from the outset. The GACC has adopted this as SOP and while they give forests a "heads up" resource order late at night, they do not expect travel to begin until a crew is rested.

In addition the testing of ICT3s has identified those who lack the experience, skills or leadership qualities to retain those red-card quals. I serve (still) as a member of a regional evaluation team. We were not shy to remove qualification cards from those who "failed" the STEX test.

With the Weaver family fully in mind, our ultimate evaluation question to panel members was "Would you want your son or daughter working for this IC?"

For me the report on the tragedy of Thirtymile seemed to follow a predictable script.

1. The crew should never have been dispatched late at night.
2. The crew boss, squad bosses and crew members should have refused to travel.
3. Upon arrival, the crew should have been rested.
4. I don't see that any formal designation/transition of IC to Daniels ever took place (may have been left out of report)
5. Crew performed in acceptable manner, recognized fire growth and dis-engaged. Most recognized they were experiencing fatigue.
6. The arrival of the engines (resources that I don't see the IC ordered),
   - the "check-in" that does not appear to have been performed to standard
   -the engine boss instructing the IC to come assist.....
   -the willingness of the crew to re-engage

All indicate poor judgment...... which is just as predictable for fatigued people as if they had been intoxicated.

Lessons learned:

• MANAGE FATIGUE
• All crew members can and must turn down unsafe assignments.
• Evaluate leadership. Remove those who cannot or will not perform.

God bless the families of these fine young people. May they come to know peace, and to know that across the country, firefighters did indeed learn from their tragic loss.....and maybe somewhere, someday, that might save a life.

Ya'll take care.
Ralph

Thanks, my friend. Ab.

Black Tuesday Wrist Bands that we ordered have arrived. We're making these available for a buck apiece with a minimum order of 10. Free shipping. Proceeds to the FWFSA.

The Abs.

Here's the message on the wildlandfire.com store. Go there. click for the larger picture. You can wear them inside or outside. Get your orders in!

Black Tuesday Wrist Bands - 10 for $10.00

On April 1st, 2008, in complete opposition to and denial of a wealth of assembled statistics, the Chief of the US Forest Service and her boss Mark Rey appeared before a Congressional Committee and provided testimony that an overwhelming majority of shocked and dismayed federal firefighters viewed either as outrageously ignorant or as blatant lies.

Wildlandfire.com considers federal agencies employees' issues of recruitment and retention critical in maintaining the elite firefighting organizations the public is accustomed and entitled to. With that in mind, we offer this silicone wrist band to be worn by any and all persons wanting to show their support for firefighters and others who are truly trying to solve the firefighter retention issue.

All income received from this product will be forwarded to the FWFSA to use as they best see fit to continue their untiring leadership in educating Congress, other elected officials, and an increasingly attentive media.

To help us keep our free shipping costs as low as possible, please note that each $10.00 order includes 10 each of the wrist bands. Any number less than 10 basically isn't worth our processing of the payment. All bands are size large (8 inches circumference) and colored with white lettering embossed on black band.

Black Tuesday Wrist Bands - 10 for $10.00

Hi emt_mb,

April 1, 2008 (Black Tuesday) was the day that Mark Rey and Gail Kimbell (FS chief) lied (or were badly misinformed) about firefighter retention as they testified in a hearing of the House Appropriations Committee (chaired by Feinstein).

There had been a week-long meeting of groundpounders and fire managers who worked on this issue the week of Dec 10, 2007 and none of the information the field supplied that would improve retention was addressed in the FS Retention Analysis or testimony.

Members of the FWFSA have been educating Congress as usual; and following the hearing, the Appropriations Committee came back to the FS and asked for further retention "plans", due June 30. We'll see what develops out of that.

9/11 was a Tuesday. So was the stock Market crash of 1929 (which also was called Black Tuesday).

Be very safe!

Ab.

On another note:

Please don't forget Michelle Reugebrink's Baskin-Robins firefighter ice cream night. She's one of 31 firefighter honorees nationwide and the only wildland firefighter. Wednesday evening (5-10 PM) is when she'll be rolling up her sleeves and serving 31 cent ice cream scoops at the Roseville Baskin Robbins, 8690 Sierra College Blvd, Roseville, California.

Families go to Roseville Wed evening. No telling who you'll run into. While there, donate to the WFF bucket and eat ice cream. (And check the bathrooms for me to see if the corners on the toilet paper are tucked in and it comes to that point, like in the fanciest hotels. I'm told they will be.)

If you're too far away to make it, send a donation to the WFF in Michelle's name!

Congrats, Michelle! You do us proud. Nice grin yellowshirt!

Mellie

Fedwatcher 007

~ * ~ * ~ BREAKING NEWS  ~ * ~ * ~ BREAKING NEWS ~ * ~ * ~ BREAKING NEWS ~ * ~  * ~

FROM  ELLREESE  DANIELS'  LAWYER

Hi All,

As some of you know, I believe we have finally reached a compromise with
the government in this case. In exchange for dismissing all 11 felony
counts, the government will agree to offer a plea to 2 misdemeanor counts
of making a false statement in an official writing. I will be recommending
to the court that Ellreese should receive no time, the government may
recommend a sentence of jail time. I strongly feel that this is a case
that does not merit a jail sentence, so I am comfortable with the plea to
the misdemeanors.

As you all know, this is a case which I have felt very passionately about.
I am more convinced than ever of Ellreese's innocence on ALL of the counts,
however, there remains a risk that if we proceed to trial, he could be
found guilty of at least one felony. There comes a time and place to put
some closure on this matter, and Ellreese is comfortable with this
resolution. I hope that the witnesses and families may also find some
peace now.

I anticipate that we will still have a contested sentencing hearing in late
summer.

We currently have a tentative change of plea set for tomorrow (April 29) at
11:00 a.m. in Spokane before Judge Van Sickle. The address of the
courthouse is: 920 W. Riverside Avenue, Spokane, WA. It is open to the
public, and I'm sure that if you can be present, Ellreese and I would
appreciate it greatly.

Ab, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could go on and post this
for us to let folks know.

Tina

MOST EXCELLENT NEWS. Thanks for your hard work and thanks also to those who have helped and to those who were willing to testify on Ellreese's behalf. Ab.

Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3930

1. Vacancies by Forest/Ranger District/Fire Station by module type, please provide location.
2. How many engines have been reduced from 7 to 5 day coverage?
3. What is the Crew makeup regarding experience?
   example for each crew:
   a) all trainees in new positions;
   b) mix but with trainees in overhead positions;
   c) seasoned firefighters in most positions.
4. How many Crews, engines, prevention units, dozers, Chief Officers are completely unstaffed?

Please let Ab (abercrombie@wildlandfire.com) or Casey (cjudd@fwfsa.org ) know your forest or district staffing levels by answering the 4 questions above. As always, your identity will remain confidential. This is a way for the compiled information from "boots-on-the-ground" to get to those who are truly working on retention issues.

Many "boots" make light work. Thanks, Ab.

Here's the Preliminary Report on the NV Firefighter who had what looked like a heart
attack while doing the pack test.

NV-DOF WCT Cardiac Emergency 041708 Preliminary Report (628 K doc file)

NV Red

Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3927

I'm not sure I understand about retention efforts, what Congress wants and what R5 is doing under what constraints... Let me get this clear in my head.

At the April 1, 2008 Senate Appropriations Hearing, when asked about FS firefighter retention problems, Mark Rey said, --don't worry, all resources in CA would be staffed by fire season and that there is no retention problem according to the FS Retention Analysis.

Senator Diane Feinstein replied that she didn't believe that there isn't a retention problem, and the Appropriations Committee requested a further detailed plan for how R5 will improve retention by June 30. She added that Congress has already made it possible to offer money incentives to aid retention by allowing the region to tap suppression funding. Do I have this right?

So now there are meetings to further explore retention and provide another plan for retaining firefighters. They're trying to do this by having 4 teams that look at the following 4 areas:

o Mission - Kathy Hardy and Curt Palmer
o Pay - Kathleen Morse, Lorene Guffey, Mike Dietrich, and Jerry McGowan
o Workplace Improvement - Scott Armentrout and Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
o Facilities - Ed Cole, Ken Heffner, and Riva Duncan

Firefighters have said that pay is their biggest issue, but there are 3 other areas that are also being considered.

Pay: The biggest boondoggle here is that the people in charge -- Randy Moore (Regional Forester), Ed Hollenshead (R5 FAM Chief) and Jody Noiron (ANF Forest Supervisor) -- have said any retention plan has to be "budget neutral". That means effectively that no forest can offer a retention pay incentive, even though Congress has said this would be one way they've approved to help retain people?

I might not understand this. Can someone lay this out better?

Mellie

Eastern FF

UTF= Unable to Fill

1. Do we have a method to collect vacancies by Forest/Ranger District/Fire Station by module type?
2. Do we have a method to report how many engines have been reduced from 7 to 5 day coverage?
3. Also, how many Crews, engines, prevention units, dozers, Chief Officers are completely unstaffed?

I know R-5 has internal methods, however will they report it upward? Will they also report upward that the fire hire round that concluded Thursday was a complete failure? This fire hire round was hastily put together after Rey's testimony, failed to fix the current large number of vacancies in R-5.

We need to put the vacancy data together and ensure that it's shared with those who need to know the truth. Rey lied !

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

This is going to sound a little strange, but about 10 years ago I was given one of these
Warthog pins (photo attached) after an especially tough fire assignment in Arizona.

The fella who gave it to me gave me a brief explanation about the criteria for inclusion
into this "fraternity" of Warthogs. On the fire he was my Division Supervisor but I recall
he was a district ranger from Region 6 and getting ready to retire.

I am trying to remember what the components of the " Make SH-- Happen" stand for,
you'll have to read the pin to get this question.

I was just wondering if there are any other Warthogs out there? is this group still around?
a little help would be much appreciated.

Sus Scrofa de Mort,

sting

Put it on the Logos14 photo page. Ab.

The story I heard was your department looked at the CDF model 15s and
USFS model 62s and said "Nope. Neither one." and came up with your own
type 3. I'd still rather have a well maintained model 61 then a 62 or 15 myself.
I got volunpicked for a committee where equipment is going to be an issue.
Any specs or pictures of your brush engines I can get would be much
appreciated.

I always liked the way everything was laid out on them. The number system is
cool and, by gum, those are handsome trucks.

Thanks,

Scrape

University of Wisconsin - SP Fire Crew recruits trained in basic forest firefighting
http://pointeronline.uwsp.edu/apr242008/outdoors/UWSPFireCrew.aspx

www.newwest.net/topic/article/merge_remake_the_forest_service/C41/L41/

Merge, Remake the Forest Service
By Bill Schneider, 4-24-08

Last month, the General Accountability Office (GA0) announced it was studying a plan to take the Forest Service out of the Department of Agriculture and merge it into the Department of the Interior. Predictably, this news was met with a chorus of yawns because we’ve heard many grandiose plans for reorganizing federal land-managing agencies. In every case, after significant wasted staff time and much stress for employees, nothing happens.

But this one wasn’t a yawner for me because something like this really needs to happen. This time, let’s get serious and seize this opportunity to remake the Forest Service (FS), an agency lost in the today’s political landscape.

Interestingly, the GOA study sounds similar to what I recommended three years ago when the FS celebrated its centennial. In that column, I suggested the FS and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), an Interior Department agency with a virtually identical mission, be eliminated and then remade as two completely different agencies, one devoted to outdoor recreation and the other focused on resource extraction and other commercial uses of public lands. This same outcome could--and should--emerge as a recommendation in the GAO study.

<snip>

Let’s face reality and stop the downward spiral. Merge the FS into the Interior Department and then immediately and completely reorganize both the FS and BLM into three focused agencies, named something like:

Outdoor Recreation Service to manage outdoor recreation on all national forests and BLM lands (we’ve never come up with a name for them) including the process of protecting roadless lands and wild rivers and assisting state agencies with wildlife management.

Resource Management Service to manage and promote mining, logging, livestock grazing, oil and gas leasing, and other extractive uses of renewable and nonrenewable resources on public lands.

Fire Service to take charge and consolidate the colossal task of preventing and controlling wild fire on all federal lands, even plucking these functions our of the NPS and FWS, a “budget cut” I’m sure both agencies would welcome. Congress should fund this agency directly and remove these budgets from other federal agencies so they can concentrate on managing public lands instead fighting fires, real and political.

[More at the link...]

Fair Use Disclaimer

Portal to Portal Brief (35K small doc file)

Thanks for posting that yactak.

I met Ken Weaver in the local (Yakima) AM/PM two weeks after the Thirtymile tragedy. I could see the pain and frustration he was feeling, and I was the logical person to vent at since I was in a Forest Service uniform. Venting is probably not the best word to use to describe the encounter, but it was a very painful experience for me. For me, it was both a learning portal and the new beginning of a personal journey towards firefighter safety. I had effectively numbed my feelings following the losses of 1987 on the Klamath, the Wasatch Fire in Utah, and the Dude Fire in Arizona. I subscribed to the checklist and rule theory of keeping firefighters safer.

I never took offense to the things Ken Weaver said to me and never will. He was (and still is) grieving over his loss, and so is the entire wildland fire family. He was treated poorly throughout the entire ordeal, as were we. The Forest Service can and must do better.

The next fire season, I was fortunate enough to meet the folks from the Okanogan-Wenatchee Forest as they were forced to visit the San Bernardino National Forest prior to being allowed to return to fire duty.

I remember vividly meeting the Forest Supervisor, the District Ranger, the FMO, and the duty officer during their visit.... and especially the Louisiana Fire (CA-BDF) towards the end of their visit.... when our personal experiences all came into alignment on a fire progressing rapidly into a project fire. Those folks knew their stuff!!!

I also felt an honor to meet them and hear their stories first hand... and without the agency spin (or deafening silence).

Since the Thirtymile Fire, and my experiences with both the families and the managers, "I" don't look at things the same way..... "I" look to fix the underlying latent factors so neither the families nor the managers (fire and line) have to experience that pain again.

"We", as the field going employees of the Forest Service can, and must do better for our families, friends, and co-workers.

Gizmo

"AB, this document came through lotus notes. Please post.
I would think those that have concerns or suggestions could
propose them to the team leaders. -noname fire"

The fire folks on the list have been sincere and are respected for the most
part in the discussion process.... Maybe the line officer authority should be
delegated to the ranger districts (ie- District Rangers) rather than the Forest
Supervisors?

Team leadership is the issue. The DRs are more connected with issues in the
field and can speak towards the nitty gritty facts that the communities are
most concerned with.

Some of those names being identified as "leaders" are big red flags..... from
fire and line.

/s/ JMHO

On Thursday the 17th of this month a crewboss from NDF (Nevada Dept of Forestry) had a heart attack while taking the pack test. He was on the last lap for the test. He is 38 and just passed a complete physical. He just dropped with no warning and was attended to by the EMT on location and 2 fellow crewbosses. He was transported to the local hospital then taken to a trauma center in Reno, Nevada. He is stable at this time and slowly doing better.

I hate the pack test, but its a evil we all have to do. Look out for your brother and sister fire fighters. You never know when bad things are going to happen. Keep yourselves healthy. Physical fitness is the key to so many things we do in this line of work. The crewboss who went down hit the treadmill every day. So who knows. It will be a while before he can even return to work for light duty. I will post more as time goes on to report how he is doing.

GD

R3 SW Fire Ops Risk Management Newsletter (214K pdf file)

Readers, If you live in the area, get out there and support Michelle!

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Great news! Ab.

www.interfax-news.com/3/387381/news.aspx

Russian wildfires reach Mongolia

MOSCOW. April 23 (Interfax) - The number of wildfires in Russia has
increased over the past 24 hours, the fire area has doubled and spread
to a part of Mongolia, the Emergencies Ministry said.

"Over the past 24 hours the number of wildfires has increased by 74
and the fire area has doubled," the ministry said on Wednesday.

The last 24 hours saw 682 new wildfires erupting in the Far East,
Siberian and Volga Urals districts. A total of 922 wildfires were
registered, 608 of them were extinguished, and 314 still continue on a
total area of 35,932.1 hectares (88,790 acres). [more at the link]

Fair Use Disclaimer

Regions Burn Center, Room 5111
640 Jackson St.
St. Paul, MN 55101-2595

Hotlist thread

The court gave us his order today with the trial date schedules. I thought
most of you would like to know what that schedule is, so I've attached his
order.

Tina

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/law/OrderTrialSchedule[4-22-08].pdf (39 K pdf file small)

Text:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

TRIAL SCHEDULE

THIS MATTER is scheduled for trial beginning May 5, 2008 and
ending July 2, 2008. Counsel shall meet with the Court in chambers at
8:30 a.m. on the first day of trial. Jury Selection will begin at
10:00 a.m. Trial will be held each day from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
and from 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. excluding the following days: May 9,
May 16, May 22, May 23, May 26, June 5, June 6, June 20, and June 23 -
27.

IT IS SO ORDERED. The District Court Executive is hereby
directed to enter this order and furnish copies to counsel.
DATED this 22nd day of April, 2008.
s/ Fred Van Sickle
United States District Judge

Thanks Tina. Free Ellreese. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Region 5 Retention Effort

Intent

Fire management has been at the forefront of the issues of employee retention and morale. Recognizing that these issues affect all employees and locations within Region 5, the Regional Forester has established a priority commitment to develop strategies to tackle four key elements contributing to this problem: mission, pay, workplace improvement, and facilities. He has charged Forest Supervisors, in partnership with the FAM Board of Directors, to provide the leadership necessary to move the Region toward resolution.

Four-teams, each to be lead by one or more Forest Supervisors and including one or more Forest Fire Chiefs, have been established to accomplish this task.

Teams

• Coordinators – Jody Noiron and Ed Hollenshead

  o Mission - Kathy Hardy and Curt Palmer
  o Pay - Kathleen Morse, Lorene Guffey, Mike Dietrich, and Jerry McGowan
  o Workplace Improvement - Scott Armentrout and Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
  o Facilities - Ed Cole, Ken Heffner, and Riva Duncan

Timelines and Performance

• Recommendations will be completed and submitted to coordinators by June 30
• Interim status reports will be provided to coordinators on April 30 and May 31

Recommendation Development Principles

• Are within the authority of the Regional Forester to implement
• Provide analysis of consequences (including short- and long-term costs and benefits), opportunity costs (tangible and intangible), and workforce impacts
• Propose logical tradeoffs in view of budget-neutral (within existing Regional budget) requirement

Team Responsibilities

• Independently identify and procure support personnel and information as necessary to accomplish the task
• Include member(s) of the workforce, union, labor relations, and civil rights as necessary to accomplish the task
• Establish vetting requirements and ensure completion to meet the deadline of June 30

FYI. It's a start and we are looking for it to be in writing...but at least there appears to be movement in a good direction!
Just so folks know what James Barnett's email means is relative English:

Last Friday the second in command at OPM verbally committed to extending the June 1, 2009 deadline for those erroneously placed in 0401s after February 15, 2005 (30 for the FS and about 40 for Interior). The new deadline will be October 1, 2010.

This applies to anyone who was placed in a GS-401 position after February 15, 2005. 'Erroneously placed' refers to GS-401 folks who relied on NWCG courses and/or courses not documented on a college transcript to qualify for the GS-401.

NWCG voted yesterday to extend the deadline for all others seeking 0401 in IFPM until that same deadline... October 1, 2010.

This refers to since IFPM was been moved under NWCG, there have been several proposals made to change IFPM implementation, including the deadline to extend as the USFS cannot determine what constitutes the correct kind/type of positive education credits will be used to qualify folks for the GS-401.

...no information regarding any non-0401 positions and can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that any position not requiring 0401 will remain under the October 1, 2009 deadline.

There are several positions in IFPM that do not require a GS-401 education. Incumbents in these positions still have a October 1, 2009 compliance 'deadline'. It also means that on October 1, 2009, having the NWCG qualifications, specialized experience and specialized training (if required for a particular position) will become a condition of hire (ie., to be on the certificate, you have to have it all completed).

There has been incredible effort to even get to this glimmer of hope. It's nice that the 'ice may be breaking up' a bit!

Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Forest Fire Chief, Tahoe NF
IC, CIIMT3
(also R-5's IFPM and 401 guru)

I also forwarded a copy to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. We were told
a couple of weeks ago at the Team Meetings that this was going to be a
"normal" fire season. I don't even know what that means anymore, but it seems
we've already had too many injuries and fatalities out there.

Be careful out there!
NVAC

Readers, please do alert us and the WFF of accidents, mishaps, injuries and deaths. We alert the WFF as well with any helpful contact info we can acquire. We also maintain a private database on the hotlist that is revealed to members every so often. We do post the "incident within an incident" info to the LargeFires /Incidents hotlist subforum, as soon as possible -- after allowing time for family notifications. We also work at timely release of info that may not have hit the mainstream media. You can always Email Ab or text message Ab with a private message at our top header button. We don't want firefighters' families to find out about a loved one here. Firefighters know about following the golden rule: Do unto other firefighter families as you would have done to yours. That holds true of donations to the WFF as well, regardless of agency, vollie, or private sector firefighter. Ab.

Allowing trainees to have taskbooks initiated while they're still working on
required training classes will improve the qualification process.

vfd cap'n

May2008DraftChangesPMS310-1.pdf (small 20K pdf file)

PTBs= Position Task Books

This takes us through July: www.nifc.gov/nicc/predictive/outlooks/outlooks.htm

I had noticed that we are exceeding the averages for acres burned so far this year.
You're right, the deaths, injuries, and near-misses are spooky for this early in the
season or, for that matter, at any time of the fire season. Heads up everyone!

Still out there as an AD ...

Against that back drop we must also remember to use our resources wisely, the first of the WFSU (P-Code) expenditure forecast is out and it is not a pretty forecast. This is very preliminary information but it should remind us of our fiscal responsibility. The range of WFSU expenditures used in the 10 year average range from a low of $ 306 million in 1998, to over $ 1.5 billion in 2006. In other words any WFSU expenditures in excess of $ 306 million will result in an increase in the 10 year suppression average and require an offset in agency funds from other program areas. Therefore it is imperative:

-- to conserve resources for an entire season,
-- to manage resources with a critical eye regardless of the PL
-- to aggressively pursue initial attack in order to prevent large fires
-- to make mindful decisions regarding resource allocation and reallocation
-- to ensure the right resource at the right time for the right reason is used
-- to preposition effectively

Actions the Washington Office is pursuing include a regional limit or authorization on severity and a mock allocation of suppression funds. These management controls are viewed very favorably by OMB. Operational actions include the addition of a helicopter coordinator position at Boise, centralization of some aviation contracts and national consolidation of some aviation command and control functions.

Agility, focus, innovation and discipline are behaviors we value and continue to promote. The NIMO teams have demonstrated these behaviors and should not be overlooked.

The NIMO teams can be used in a short or long team configuration. They can coach, mentor and advise local resources in Type 3 organizations or Type 2 teams to prevent a transition as complexity increases; or they can manage a fire and work with local line officers to determine the best course of action to reduce costs and support land management objectives. They are a flexible, agile and a cost efficient resource.

We encourage you to explore some of the alternative fire management tools available. We are happy to answer any questions or concerns, or take any input or suggestions that you might have regarding these actions. Let’s continue to work together towards a solution and make this a safe and successful fire season.

Remember no structure, or resource is a valuable as our fire fighters and the public.

Thanks
Marc G. Rounsaville
Deputy Director, Fire and Aviation Management

And when the $$'s gone telling Congress it's gone and stopping work,
like when the NPS closes down monuments when the $$ runs out? until
more money is allocated.

Fire should be budgeted in a transparent way for fire.

Resources should be budgeted in a transparent and fair way for our
forests.

There needs to be a way to separate fire $$ from the rest of the FS
before the FS goes under. Quit "borrowing" from other areas if the $$
runs out. Quit spending fire $$ for other things so you have to borrow
from other areas later. What's so hard about that?

I may be young, but I know how to keep my income and expenditures
straight.

tree girl, love the owls too
One almost ran into my head the other night after I called it. What a rush!

Severity of fires this season?

It seems we are already having fires in a number of regions and several that have
required Incident Management Teams.

We have had firefighter deaths from dozer operator to SEAT pilot and burnovers
that have resulted in serious injury with life flight.

Are there any predictions by reliable groups or individuals regarding fuels, fire
severity predictions.

Wondering what the '08 season might bring, more of the same and worse to come?

Be safe!

Strider

"My department has a plumber, a diesel mechanic, a scrap metal dealer, a geologist,
a GIS expert, a couple of cops, a veterinarian, several heavy equipment operators,
and an electrician."

Nerd, that describes a lot of guys on my fulltime department. Remember most firefighters,
wildland/structural, career/volunteer are "Jacks of all trades, masters of none"

Former Green Soldier.

www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/buckingham/article/injured_firefighter_expected_to_survive/20634/

from Hickman

WOW. In addition to posting replies, I'd also be willing to pass suggestions behind the scenes. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Ab,

Ten years and change past my retirement date, I have to admit to now only occasionally reading “They Said It”; I find the constant reoccurring themes are, literally, the constant reoccurring themes! I was lucky to start my Federal Wildland Fire career the summer of ’65 as a Fire Control Aid II, it did not pay very much, but it was my dream to fight forest fires and the Plumas National Forest was as good a place to follow that dream as any.

In the Bachelor’s Barracks at the Work Center that summer we spent time grumbling about wages and getting an “appointment”, and some of us wondering why the loggers hated piss firs! In ’66, I dropped out of college and worked for the PNF for nine months, and did just about everything, from tree planting, BRC, learning how to fall timber and drive a flat bed tanker fitted with a 150 gallon slip-on unit, to closing the Spanish Peak Lookout in a driving snowstorm with Lee Reis.

We walked out to Bucks Summit and down to Toll Gate; his truck was towed out in the spring. Five months later I was drafted, and my brief wildland fire-fighting career morphed into being a combat medic in a lovely hellhole called Binh Dinh Province, RVN.

I say all of this, to lead to the thought, that the comments, concerns, and considerations of the authors of “They Said It”, are timeless in the history of the Forest Service. In 1975, a group of us proposed a Federal Wildland Fire Service. (Boy, that was really well received!) I sat on the Forest Committee charged figuring out how to implement SAFETY FIRST on the Forest. (Basically a no brainer). In 1976, a bunch of us proposed that at least one member of every fire crew/ engine/ helicopter/ shots be a Certified EMT, in the aftermath of several serious and near fatal fire line accidents. (Powers to be hated that one, but as a former medic it was dear to my heart, as I watch a dear FS friend try to struggle back from near death inflicted on the walls of the Feather River Canyon.

As the years progressed we did get some action out of the stale bureaucracy that was/is the Regional/Washington Office of the USFS. We eventually got struggling labor organizations, which allowed us to leverage some things. We had to weather the endless choppy waves of the budget cycle. Reorganization, consolidation, Consent Decree, more consolidation. Less money. Fewer people. Falling initial attack capabilities.

I was proud to be early dues paying member of NFFE 1995 and then, Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, F-262. I was privileged to be asked to accompany Kent Swartzlander back to Washington DC, where we attended the National Conference of the International Association of Fire Fighters and attempted to get them to support our “classification agenda”, and spent two days on the hill, meeting with congressional staffers for Senators and Representatives. We actually got to sit down with that unending Congressional Rep of Northern California, Wally Herger, who in that great big smiley face way of his greeted us with, “How’s my favorite fire fighters?” He did not know us from Adam until someone whispered in his ear who we were as we waited in the foray.

I remember drawing those offices I would canvas, and setting off down the hallways to my five minute meetings with a staffer generally younger than me, who in most cases, did not really know that:

• 1) the Forest Service and BLM actually had fire fighters;
• 2) that they were not really classified as Federal Fire fighters; even through,
• 3) they could retire on OPM certified fire fighter retirement; and….oh hell, a hold bunch of stuff.

I dare say, you go there today, and spent two days laying out justifications for proper classification, better wages, better safety, more professionalism; you get the same blank stares we received.

The reoccurring themes of federal wildland fire management seem timeless and etched in granite, and I suspect will remain so for some time. However, that said, do not, ever, ever give up striving to be as professional and progressive as you can in pursuit of your career. I once wrote, “you do not fire fires for the money, you fight because you want to; but more money would be nice!”

I have spoken with many members of both USFS & CDF FIRE since that magical day in January ’98, and know that the last years have not been very kind to either agency. But recently driving past the brand new USFS Fire Dozer on its shining lowboy and chase truck; a smile does come to my face and mind. I remember a bunch of us raising hell when we were told that our initial attack fire cats and operators were to be eliminated! It was a bad decision that blackened many acres; luckily years later someone recognized the error; and gives a chance for a knowing smirk to spread across my face.

Stay the course, stand up and be counted. Change takes time, sometimes a lot of time. Change will still eventually occur, but without personal effort and dedication, it just might not be what you wanted.

Fight fire aggressively, but provide for safety first. Head’s up this fire season.

Oh yeah, Ab, I do miss it still! And a convection column on a mid-slope gets my attention every time.

Peace, Maddog

Thanks for the history, Maddog. Ab.

The funeral services for Gert (Jerry) Marais, the pilot who died when his single engine air tanker crashed April 15 on the TA-25 fire near Fort Carson, Colorado, will be in Fort Benton, Montana, on April 25th at 11:00 AM. The service will be at the Montana Agricultural Center, 1205 20th Street.

Jackson

Thanks, Jackson.
More info: Visitation is 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. Thursday at Benton Funeral Home and one hour prior to the 11 a.m. service Friday at the Agricultural Center in Fort Benton.

Memorials may be made to:

the Marais Family Benefit Account
c/o First Security Bank
PO Box 279
Fort Benton, MT, 59442

Each year, the Colorado Fallen Firefighters Foundation hosts the event to pay
tribute to firefighters who paid the ultimate price in Colorado.

There is a parade at 10:30, and the ceremony begins at 11:00 in Belmar Park,
near Wadsworth and Alameda Pkwy. I've gone to the event every year for the
last several years, just as a grateful citizen - not as an agency rep. It's very
nicely done - dignified and touching.

A lot of people don't know the memorial is practically in our back yard, so I just
wanted to let folks know about it, since there will be wildland firefighters honored
this year.

Website for further information, especially if someone wants to put apparatus in
the parade:
www.coff.us/

Thanks for listening, and I hope to see you there.

<snipped name and position>
Rocky Mountain Region

www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008804200343

www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008804170303

SS

I will continue to try and preserve and advance the best firefighting community in the world.

DIB

A bit of history: Here's an interesting 1999 archive: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/recruit.htm (The Ab there is OA.) Kent Swartzlander, sup of the Plumas Shots and FWFSA president at the time did speak before Congress in 1994 on pay and issues related to retention. (Shots are one of our professional groups and many go on to management positions later in their careers.) Kent was one of the originators of FWFSA with Don Will and Rusty Witwer and some others who exercised their first amendment rights and rose to the need they saw to speak out. Among others, They Said It. It would be interesting to have the history of that early movement preserved here. OA lent his support for the logo link and issues as did Larry Jordan (retired CDF airtanker pilot and AAP webmaster), who hosted the first FWFSA website with the very basic info. It's one part of a proud history that has taken wildland fire professionalism a long way. The action of informing each other, informing Congress and informing the public continues today. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=17537#post17537

Have you looked on the engines photo pages? Ab.

I just finished S-290, Intermediate Fire Behavior today. Passed the final with a bit of studying. This was the 4 day class following the new (12/07) 4 day curriculum. I was extremely lucky to have some very qualified and great instructors. Brenda Belongie- North Ops Meteorologist from North Ops/Predictive Services did a great job of teaching the weather section. Her ability to make us critically think instead of just read the “cookbook” made me a more knowledgeable firefighter. I think it is easy to read tables and hear daily weather without thinking about why things are happening in the weather world. Years of getting the weather on the nightly news made me think of weather in a very limited fashion. One big “light bulb” that was turned on for me was making weather 3 dimensional instead of 1 dimensional, i.e. surfacing winds. I am also indebted to BC Alec Lane and his staff for filling in the remaining instructor list and putting the class on. Their experience and real world knowledge definitely helped me learn more about core concepts related to weather and fire behavior.

As far as the curriculum I am going to concur with previous posts on THEYSAID regarding FLAME. I am not about to generalize all firefighters into the category of “knuckle draggers” but FLAME is a complicated process that most of us will not get or use. I don’t think FLAME will ever be used in the cab of an engine I am working on or on line that is being cut. However, FBAN’s should use this process as it does do a great job of predicting ROS. The South Canyon exercise in the class displayed that Flame does produce quality (as close as you can get) ROS calculations. If an FBAN ended up getting these ROS calculations into an IAP I would definitely consider them good tools in the toolbox. I do also think the concepts that deliver a ROS through FLAME are important for the engine boss/ff/crew level. We all need to understand that an increase in slope and wind will cause and "expected" increase in ROS. I realize that Mr. Bishop (FLAME creator) had an awesome goal of making us look at “expected” fire behavior in order to save our bacon on high intensity fires. I applaud him for making an effort to try to decrease firefighter fatalities and injuries. I also applaud the fact that he did this on a volunteer basis.

It does seem that prescribed fire folks could use FLAME as well to effectively determine ROS. I will say my prescribed fire experience is very limited so I will leave this opinion to the people in the know.

I know there has been previous discussion on Campbell Prediction. So I will not belabor the point but CPS is the way to go. I can easily remember the CPS chart to this day. Alignment makes total sense. FLAME makes sense also. But one is quicker the other, CPS makes sense when things are burning. FLAME makes sense for the FBAN who has a little more time than the guys pulling up in an engine or buggy.

In closing, I would think FLAME is a good tool for the classes above the 290 level. I also think 290 should discuss FLAME as we all need to understand what it is and how it can be a useful tool….. from the IAP.

Graeagle FF

Here's what Becki Forest-Supervisor (on the Wenatchee- Okanogan NFs)
said on 4/14 theysaid post from Gorge FMO:

I plan on attending as much of the trial as possible. When I’m not
there, my representative will be. I will wear my uniform proudly in
support of all employees and the Agency. I have identified a few
employees that will serve a variety of roles in an official capacity at
the trial, including keeping you informed of the proceedings. Others
interested in attending can do so on their own time, not in an official
capacity, with the use of leave pre-approved by their supervisor.

She may be there in an official capacity, though.

Mellie

Respectfully, how did you come up with 8 year inflation rate of 20.55%?

cprda

AB,

I was wondering if you or anyone else has any info on the burnover featured in this video; www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIBOL2yrRM

I noticed some interesting things going on with the burnout operation featured right at the beginning.
1.) The firefighters seem to be taking quite a large chunk of unburned fuel for the wind speeds that are evident. Something that would seem to make the holding effort difficult.
2.) Then, the lower of the two firefighters performing the staggered burnout get ahead of the upper firefighter, something that i was taught was a small safety hazard, but a safety hazard all the same. Especially given the steepness of the terrain, the wind speed, and the way the upper firefighter keeps falling down.

Anyway, Just some personal observations. I would love to read what really happened, I spent a season working on the San Berdue and i know how insane those winds can be.

JG

I don't care to argue, however, I believe we can discuss these concerns. Some of these issues between us are like comparing apples and oranges, however the rough similarities are there. I will state right now, that I am a "contractor". I will also strongly add that our company ALWAYS receives exceptional performance reviews from a multitude of agencies.

I would like to bring up your point of in 2001 one the entry wages where between $ 8 and $10 an hour and that now, 8 years later they are between $10 and $12+. That is a 20% raise!! Sounds like progress to me. In this time, my wife who is a medical professional has received a combined raise of 7.86% , and she is in a very desirable position to a multitude of employers. Now I looked up my rates that that we were hired out at in 2001 before the best value method and compared them to what I have to bid at now and we have taken a 32% CUT! In this time we have replaced all of our equipment and added numerous years of experience to our employees' knowledge base. I also just looked over our CALFIRE agreement and this year we received a new 3 year contact with a 4% increase over our last 3 year contract issued in '05. At the current fuel prices, this will looks to be a net zero gain. I will not complain about this, because at the end of the day I will still make a few dollars and I love my job! Now I admit that our guys gross around $350 per shift which is comparable to what they could make say in the construction or logging trade as equipment operators. We also know that if we did not pay them this wage they would MOVE ON to somewhere that they could make the wage.

My biggest problem with the whole contracting thing has to do with ROSS and the dispatching process. We have invested heavily in high end and quality equipment and education for our employees and it greatly frustrates me when a team is in need for a piece of equipment with a gizmo on it (GEL, CAFS, a million miles of hose or whatever), and so they place the order out through ROSS and the dispatchers don't know how to find us since this certain "gizmo" is not listed as a search feature on ROSS. It also is a bit depressing knowing that our equipment (new and loaded) is dispatched with the same priority as a pickup with a hand crank pump (yes that was an exaggeration, but you get the point).

It also bugs me when our local dispatch center wont send us out, (even when there are orders for equipment) just because they want us to be around in case if they need us. Now this is common, at times, with paid agency people, but when this happens to us, we are not paid if we aren't out on an incident. How can we pay for good quality equipment if we don't receive any jobs? When an agency employee is held, they are likely getting paid at the same time. Perhaps they are doing project work or "polishing" the engine. Should firefighters be paid more than $12 an hour? Yes they should! Yet remember to look at the plus side too, and they got a 20% pay raise in the last 8 years under an administration that is trying to cut costs....

I will stand up for you guys for a better "living wage" Will you guys stand with me for a better dispatch process for us contractors?

I guess in closing I can say, "see MLK, I guess even I can whine too ;)"

Have a good an safe and yes PROSPEROUS fire season!

cprda

- MLK

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

Kudos to Janine Velasco. This is a very clear, direct and positively stated podcast. Didn't seem like spin or talking points and full of good information. A plus. Ab.

cprda

I was on the crew in 1973. It was a 15 person hand crew with George Motschall as the foreman. Around Sept of 73, a contract ship, a Bell 205, with Region 3 was detailed to the BDF and stationed at Mill Creek. We then became the flight crew with smoky Val as the helitack foreman. The following year the ship returned to Mill Creek and the newly formed Mill Creek Hot Shots used it. i believe that this ship burned on a fire on the San Jacinto Dist in 1975 and was replaced by a Bell 204. By that time Smoky had a 10 person fire crew for the ship along with a 7 person helitack.

George Ozanich

Thanks, I added this to the IHC -->Fire Manager" Project page. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some of you might of seen this already. We had one of the HRLs asked why some of our employees were hearing that the Relocation Contract was not available to our employees. This is the answer we got from B&F. Rudy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This issue has been forwarded to me as it is a ASC B&F Travel Branch issue. It is true we are not offering any transferees the option of entering into a Relocation Services Program where a third party purchases the employees home. We expect the Chief's office to release a letter later today or on Monday regarding this issue.

At this time, my TOS counselors have been provided the following script to inform incoming TOS. "We regret to inform you that use of the Relocation Services Program is on hold at this time. Due to the economic downturn in the housing market, the FS has lost three of its Relocation Services Program (RSP) providers and the one remaining provider is not accepting new orders at this time due to volume. This is a government wide issue and the General Services Administration is involved, working to obtain additional contractors for the Federal Agencies to utilize. The Executive Leadership Team (ELT) is reviewing the Relocation Services Program and evaluating various options. As soon as we receive the ELT decision we will be informing everyone.

Until this problem is resolved with the RSP there are only two options available at this time:

1. You are entitled to the self sale reimbursement of your residence. This reimbursement cannot exceed 10% final sales price.

2. You can delay your home sale transaction pending the decision(s) of the ELT.

If you choose option 1 you may not later request RSP.

If you choose option 2 we will provide you a weekly update as to the current status. We will provide your options to you once the decision is made."

Many employees will be impacted by this. It will also be the employees decision on whether to accept or decline positions based on the fact it may be hard to sell their homes.

We hope to have more information soon, but right now this is what is provided and the Chief's letter should be out by Monday.

Pam <snip>, Branch Chief, Travel and Transfer of Station
USDA, FS, ASC, B&F
Albuquerque, NM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

here is a briefing paper that is certainly worth sharing at a refresher or
fire safety meeting.

Also, it is very important that all firefighters get a chance to
"experience" the feel of a real shelter.

Under the stress of a real deployment we don't want folks to be distracted
by the difference between a real shelter and the plastic one.

This was an issue on a deployment recently when a firefighter, who had to
deploy, had never actually felt a real shelter until that moment.
His stress level was already high but when he pulled out his shelter it
must have redlined.
He told me that his shelter seemed so ridged and thick that he imagined
that it had somehow fused or melted together in the heat.

Practice shelters are excellent to train with and an economical tool to
develop "deployment proficiency". Real shelters are obviously expensive
and they won't hold up to repeated practice deployments but they can be
"experienced" before one is ever really needed.

(See attached file: Petrilli brief.doc)

and for more info on the shelter see:

www.nifc.gov/safety/fire_shelter.htm

Making the rounds yesterday:
Regional IFPM Leads

Although I have not seen anything in writing, I am as certain as I can be of the following:

Last Friday the second in command at OPM verbally committed to extending the June 1, 2009 deadline for those erroneously placed in 0401s after February 15, 2005 (30 for the FS and about 40 for Interior). The new deadline will be October 1, 2010.

NWCG voted yesterday to extend the deadline for all others seeking 0401 in IFPM until that same deadline... October 1, 2010.

I have no information regarding any non-0401 positions and can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that any position not requiring 0401 will remain under the October 1, 2009 deadline.

Also, remember that this relief is in addition to those that will be published by NWCG and the Implementation Team by mid-May which will provide some NWCG position qualification relief to about 5 or 6 positions for some or all complexity levels.

If there is more on this breaking news, I'll let you know as soon as I do.

Jim

James Barnett
W O Branch Chief, Fire Training (NIFC)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comment from Jeanne Pincha-Tulley (the IFPM guru for R5) on the same intranet email:

FYI. It's a start and we are looking for it to be in writing...but at least there appears to be movement in a good direction!

Just so folks know what James Barnett's email means in relative English:
Last Friday the second in command at OPM verbally committed to extending the June 1, 2009 deadline for those erroneously placed in 0401s after February 15, 2005 (30 for the FS and about 40 for Interior). The new deadline will be October 1, 2010. This applies to anyone who was placed in a GS-401 position after February 15, 2005. "Erroneously placed" refers to GS-401 folks who relied on NWCG courses and/or courses not documented on a college transcript to qualify for the GS-401.

NWCG voted yesterday to extend the deadline for all others seeking 0401 in IFPM until that same deadline... October 1, 2010. This refers to the following: since IFPM has been moved under NWCG, there have been several proposals made to change IFPM implementation, including the deadline to extend, as the USFS cannot determine what constitutes the correct kind/type of positive education credits will be used to qualify folks for the GS-401.

...no information regarding any non-0401 positions and can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that any position not requiring 0401 will remain under the October 1, 2009 deadline.

There are several positions in IFPM that do not require a GS-401 education. Incumbents in these positions still have a October 1, 2009 compliance "deadline". It also means that on October 1, 2009, having the NWCG qualifications, specialized experience and specialized training (if required for a particular position) will become a condition of hire (ie., to be on the certificate, you have to have it all completed).

There has been incredible effort to even get to this glimmer of hope. It's nice that the "ice may be breaking up" a bit!

Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Forest Fire Chief, Tahoe National Forest
Incident Commander, CIIMT3

Please read the post a little bit more thoroughly. As I said, I would not take a retention bonus if my crew would not get same or a similar compensation. Why should we only give retention bonuses to those who want to leave? Read the post again, think a little and consider that very few things in history ever were given out, people needed to take a stand and fight for what's right.

Would the taxpayers really call BS if they knew:

• Most our Firefighters and Apprentices working in the RUS cost pay area only make between 10-12 bucks an hour? Only 2 dollars above the minimum wage in CA!
• Would they call BS if they knew that many of our Apprentices are unable to take the federal health benefits because they simply can't afford the monthly premiums when you make such a small hourly wage?
• Would they call BS if they knew the federal health care premium they pay as a Firefighter at 12 bucks an hour is the same monthly cost our FAM Director pays, and he makes between 60-70 bucks an hour?
• Would they call BS if they knew since they can't afford the federal health care premium, the Firefighter and spouse go uninsured and are forced to take the kids to a hospital under the federal CHIPS program and are forced to ask for federal assistance?
• Would they call BS if they knew that even those who choose to pay the monthly premium and purchase the fed health care, they must pay large back payments when they come back to duty for fire season, leaving them with an even smaller paycheck?
• Would they call BS if they knew some of our Firefighters stand in line for food stamps?

To those who would say, "The taxpayers will call it B.S.",
I don't want to see any of my fellow firefighters resign or retire early. We need them to stay and help fight for what's right. As someone said earlier tonight, we must stand together and if we need to make a statement we will in due time and on our terms.

We don't have the flu, we have a movement.

ms

RUS= Rest of US

Behind the scenes of wildland firefighters focus of new movie
www.times-standard.com/entertainment/ci_8958606
The Eureka Times-Standard
Article Launched: 04/17/2008 09:00:32 AM PDT

The wildland fire season two years ago was one of the worst in recent years and Friday you can get a glimpse of how the men and women who fought one of the larger fires that year did it.

”Where There's Smoke,” was produced by “every member of the filmmaking team and HSU alumni,” said Assistant Director Montel Vanderhorck in a recent e-mail.

The documentary was directed by a firefighter, Seean Wilson.

”This documentary provides an intimate look into the lives of wildland firefighters,” Vanderhorck wrote. “His inspiration comes from his years of experience as a wildland firefighter with CDF (now CALFIRE).”

The crews featured in the documentary include the CalFire Helitack Crew from Hemet, the U.S. Forest Service Sierrea Hotshots, the California Department of Corrections Valley View Crew 3, and CalFire Capt. Matt Chamblin, former inmate (and current engineer with CALFIRE) and the Honeydew Volunteer Fire Department.

” 'Where's There's Smoke' was completely locally funded and produced,” Vanderhorck said.

The screening is Friday at the Accident Gallery in Eureka. The show starts at 8 p.m. and admission is $5.

www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0408/041708cdam1.htm

Dems seek to require electronic storage of agency e-mail
By Dan Friedman

The White House and federal agencies would have to step up efforts to keep their e-mails under a bill introduced Wednesday, but a nonpartisan watchdog group in a separate report said the legislation does too little to fix an "abysmal" federal e-mail record-keeping system.

Government rules for keeping e-mails have not kept pace with changes in technology and working habits that have meant federal business occurs increasingly online, experts and open government advocates said in testimony submitted for a House Oversight and Government Reform Information Policy Subcommittee hearing on the bill.

[Click the link for more]

This came from the RO. It appears your efforts might be working. Below is an example of some movement from R-5 to try and organize this mess a little better. Still very concerned about this budget neutral wording, so keep the pressure going to ensure they follow Congress's approval (thanks to Feinstein) to use suppression funds (WFSU) to help fund the R-5 retention plan. Take a look at the 'team responsibilities" section. If you have some good ideas or would like to be a member of these teams, make sure your voice is heard.

Stay strong, stay together and keep hammering..........

Signed,
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Region 5 Retention Effort

Intent

Fire management has been at the forefront of the issues of employee retention and morale. Recognizing that these issues affect all employees and locations within Region 5, the Regional Forester has established a priority commitment to develop strategies to tackle four key elements contributing to this problem: mission, pay, workplace improvement, and facilities. He has charged Forest Supervisors, in partnership with the FAM Board of Directors, to provide the leadership necessary to move the Region toward resolution.

Four-teams, each to be lead by one or more Forest Supervisors and including one or more Forest Fire Chiefs, have been established to accomplish this task.

Teams

• Coordinators – Jody Noiron and Ed Hollenshead

  o Mission
  o Pay
  o Workplace Improvement
  o Facilities

Timelines and Performance

• Recommendations will be completed and submitted to coordinators by June 30
• Interim status reports will be provided to coordinators on April 30 and May 31

Recommendation Development Principles

• Are within the authority of the Regional Forester to implement
• Provide analysis of consequences (including short- and long-term costs and benefits), opportunity costs (tangible and intangible), and workforce impacts
• Propose logical tradeoffs in view of budget-neutral (within existing Regional budget) requirement

Team Responsibilities

• Independently identify and procure support personnel and information as necessary to accomplish the task
• Include member(s) of the workforce, union, labor relations, and civil rights as necessary to accomplish the task
• Establish vetting requirements and ensure completion to meet the deadline of June 30

I have a question for Casey or anyone else involved in the reclass attempt. A lot has been mentioned about “portal to portal”

For those you do not know in CALFIRE only the fire fighting folks in bargaining unit 8 (California Firefighters) www.cdf-firefighters.org/ get portal to portal. That is something their bargaining unit fought for and won. It is not a “right of passage”. It did not even apply to everyone in bargaining unit 8. The warehouse staff (FLOs), mechanics, and others under unit 8 to not get PTP. Neither do the support folks that work on any type of incident alongside the FF/FAE/FC/HEFO/BC etc.

That means the communications operators (dispatchers) and office folks, support personnel, which are under a different state bargaining units, work hour for hour, even though they are at the same incident camp, doing the same job or maybe even being that fire person's boss under ICS, or working side by side at a dispatch center/ECC. So just to be politically correct, not all the CALFIRE family is getting PTP.

So my question is how you are planning on addressing that with your folks that are not out on the line, fighting fire everyday, but who work along side you on an incident? Is it all 462 folks? Does that include the staff in the dispatch center, the staff at the airbases, the warehouse person, the radio tech, etc? What about the Team members?

I see the same thing that CALFIRE has currently going on. One company, but several different rules for their employees. But it is not CALFIRES fault. It is how the 21 bargaining units for California state workers take care of CALFIRE personnel they represent. How are you going to tell the radio operator, who is a rec person, or Facilities unit leader, who is a “oligest” sorry, but ICS does equal PTP. Will the “militia” start turning down assignments if they don’t get PTP? Now you got a real problem..

Just wondering how you plan to address this now before they come up with a fix. Better to address it now than having to explain it later during fire camp lunch.

As a “X” forest service FF, I wish you all the best and you all need to get some answers for your concerns.

Wondering

I will always be true to green

"For clarity sake, 4G's brought up the issue of striking, not the original person he/she posted in reaction to. It might be he/she did not understand what was being suggested. Ab."

I think I do understand what the original poster was suggesting but I chose to use the word "STRIKE" to make my point instead of "EXTORTION" or "BLACKMAIL" which is really closer to the Green Monday scenario.

"Imagine the effect if every Apprentice up to every Forest Fire Chief submitted a resignation effective Sept 15th tomorrow morning. Now we probably would not ever see a dime, however we would knock this Presidential campaign off the headlines and by Friday and we would see Casey and Feinstein on Larry King Live answering how the administration got to a point where every Forest Service Firefighter in California submitted a resignation. You're doing a great job Brownie, I mean Reyie! Now that is what I would call a movement."

I was only attempting to point out that the majority of the public would probably not accept the threat of mass firefighter resignations, in an attempt raise their awareness of the firefighters plight, prior to the onset of the Santana season in a kind and loving manner.

Green Monday calls it a "Movement", the cops call it "Blue Flu" firefighters call it "Red Rash"

The taxpayers will call it B.S.

Many thanks for the clarification. Ab.

Thanks, I added this to the IHC -->Fire Manager" Project page. Ab.

As I read the earlier suggestion about Green Tuesday, I thought the person was suggesting employees putting in a sf 52 for retirement on that date ( if eligible). If things get better, rescind the sf 52. I don't think he was suggesting a labor strike.

You are correct that a strike by public service employees will get you nothing but very bad press. I watched my father in law and others during the Air Traffic Controllers strike. He did not "go out" but we know where that ended. Reagan fired those who did not return! A labor stoppage by firefighters no matter what the grievance would not be received well by the public.

I put in my retirement sf 52 when I had enough of the BS (and retired) and have not regretted it a bit.

Fish01

Re: Striking

I am unsure who brought up the issue of striking, but federal employees
take an oath upon appointment not to strike against the government.
Striking is punishable by up to a year in jail, and although there have
been several strikes by federal employees in the past, the most memorable
one was the 1981 strike of the federal air traffic controller's union, in
which 13,000 of the 17,000 members walked off the job. Reagan threatened
them with termination if they did not return, and he carried out that
threat, terminating them and barring them from ever holding a federal job
again.

In addition, the public opinion during the strike was almost universally on
the side of the government and against the workers. Despite the fact that
the public now supports firefighters, a strike like this would most likely
turn the tide of public opinion against the strikers.

The FAA also had prepared a contingency plan to mitigate the effects of the
striking workers, and it worked quite well. The strike did not have the
intended effects of a) disrupting air travel, and b) getting them a raise.
Instead, it got them fired.

-midwest afmo

PS. When I toured the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library & Museum in Simi
Valley a few years ago, there was an audio clip of him talking about
"federal employees" threatening to strike, and how he broke that strike by
firing them. Interesting that of all the public appearances and speeches
that he made, that the library would pick that particular one to play in
the background for the visitors. A Republican's proudest moment in office
must be when he fires federal employees!

1namerif

www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=90046

Wildfire 98 percent contained, fallen firefighters identified

Crowley County - Two firefighters have been killed as crews work to continue
their containment of a 14-square mile wildfire in the town of Ordway.

The 8,900-acre fire started Tuesday shortly after 2 p.m. on Highway 96 and
prompted a state of emergency.

By Wednesday afternoon, authorities said containment was at 98 percent.
The two firefighters were killed when they drove their truck onto a bridge
that had been burned by the fire. They were both Department of Corrections
Officers.

Officials identified them as Sergeant Terry Davore, 29, and Officer John
Schwartz, Jr., 38. They were volunteer firefighters with the Olney Springs
Volunteer Fire Department. [click the link for the rest] also check the hotlist... Ab.

Feinstein rejects FS retention report
By J.P. Crumrine, Assistant Editor

In a move unusual for inside Washington politics, Sen. Dianne Feinstein has called the administration’s bluff. Last week, she wrote to Mark Rey, undersecretary of agriculture for natural resources, and Abigail Kimbell, chief of the U.S. Forest Service (FS).

In her letter, she politely dismissed the report on recruitment and retention, which the agency provided at the April 1 Senate Appropriations Committee hearing on the 2009 FS budget. She also asked several questions contradicting the report’s conclusions.

“Sen. Feinstein is concerned that the Forest Service report denies there is a service problem with firefighter attrition and morale ... She wants answers on why the report differs so much from the draft report,” said Phil LaVelle, her press secretary. “She is committed to ensuring that California has enough firefighters — before fire season begins.”

Normally, if a senator or representative disputes the executive branch reports or actions, they will add money for their favored project or deny money for disputed actions. Generally, the public discord does not surface outside the hearing room but this time it did.

“The Forest Service stands behind the report it has prepared and is looking into the points raised by the senator in her most recent letter,” said Allison Stewart, FS national press officer. “Our analysis does not represent the final word on recruiting and retention.”

The debate is whether the FS has difficulty filling and keeping firefighting personnel in Southern California. In her April 9 letter, Feinstein challenged Rey and Kimbell on three critical points in their report.

She cited the number of vacant firefighter positions and the effects that has on availability of engines and other firefighting resources. She noted the absence of an acknowledgement that FS pay may lag other state and local wages with similar emergency response responsibilities. Thirdly, she accused the FS of reversing, not simply revising, a draft analysis prepared in this region months before the report was submitted late to Congress.

[click for the rest of JP Crumrine's retention story]

1st of all they started the call letting us know that we would not be talking about fire hire or temp hire...HELLLLLLOOOO - That is what we are trying to accomplish right now.

2nd of all I am sick to death of hearing how hard everyone is working at this. We had a working system before we moved everyone to ABQ Service Center, now it takes over 5 months for people to receive their lump sum, you tell temp employees to show up for work, and they have not processed anything yet, so they are not actually employees. I submitted a 52 in Feb to bring on an employee 4/14. Nothing happened, I could not get the so-called case worker to call me back, or return my emails, we are now spending more time on this crap, what a waste of money. When is management going to stand up and say ENOUGH.....

ktmac

TOS=Transfer of Station

Ordway: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3690
Fort Carson: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3695

Be safe all.

Ab.

I first would like to thank Casey @FWFSA for doing all he is doing for us as wildland firefighters. 

I am a Chief Officer for a Forest on the east side of the Mississippi river and spent a bulk of my fire career as a engine captain, afmo, and dfmo in R3- 

The FS Fire program is in need of a change-this is from the west coast to the east coast!  I feel for the folks in R5!  knowing the struggles I go thru here each and every day to have a professional fire program are no match for the issues associated with the problems in R5 and the west!  Here's a quick run down on my unit in the east-  As the Forest FMO, I am also the Forest Aviation Officer (for not only my unit but for 2 other NF's), the Forest Fire Planner (FPU Lead), Forest Fire Prevention Officer, Fire Budget, Forest Safety Officer, Forest training officer, etc------oh and a Gs-11 with no deputy FFMO- I feel fortunate to have 2 DFMOs and a Center Manager to rely on! And ASC is trying take my 401 away from me!

Guess my point of this post is we in the east are counting on Casey and the FWFSA and the efforts in R5 to help make a change!  All my folks in fire have came from the west, and like me, came here to be back home for family!   We are an active unit both regionally and nationally with several of us participating on national teams!

I keep saying to myself, hang in there and things will get better!

Chief on the east side!

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3695

Also, I think the "powers that be" underestimated the simple power of the groundpounders with a voice. Ab.

Still Standing

Hi Abs,

We wanted to show our appreciation to a number of folks who have recently done some compassionate fundraising on behalf of fallen firefighter’s families and injured firefighters.

THANK YOU:

Great Basin Incident Management Teams – Last week they held a silent auction at their meeting in Reno and raised the biggest amount of money for just a silent auction we’ve ever seen - $2,500.

Del Rosa Hotshots held their poker tournament on April 12 and raised more than $6,000. They had 16 more players than last year and according to Burk, they all had a great time and the hospitality was top-notch!

Jim Roth, Storm King Mountain Technology – organizer of the “Lucky Peak Run” held each year in honor of his brother, Roger Roth, one of the 14 firefighters killed on the South Canyon fire in 1994. They brought in an awesome donation of just over $1,000. They had 8 runners participate, and all but one was able to finish.

Brittaney Khong – a young student in Southern California, began a program she calls “Operation Fire Angel” wherein she has put together small first aid kits with fire safety information, with all the proceeds going to the Foundation. (post from several days ago if you scroll down)

I would also like to send out recognition to Joe Sean Kennedy, Captain, Elk Mountain HC, for all his volunteer work on our Crew T-Shirt program. Up and running again, this program is an easy way for an entire crew to support the families of fallen firefighters and injured firefighters by utilizing the program to order their shirts and provide some income to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation’s general fund.

We truly could not do this work without the support of all of you in the wildland community. Thank you, from our hearts to yours.

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Click the link to check our some pics, including one of the bands organized by John Cataldo, Supe of the Ukonom Crew. Nice work, All. Ab.

www.weather.gov/view/nationalwarnings.php?map=on

JG

COB= Close of Business

Ab you're awesome

SMOKE

The FWFSA Response was posted on the FWFSA member site more than a week ago. After all, there are some advantages to FWFSA membership. Posted here and now with permission and, given its historical importance, linked from the Documents Worth Reading archive. Ab.

LM

Thanks for sharing that. Here's a link for others in the same situation with uninsured children and not enough income to cover them: http://ww2.iehp.org/IEHP/Membership/Our+Products/Healthy+Families/ Now let's work on getting our firefighters (their parents) insured...

I asked LM what he/she meant by"Life Event" the last sentence means.  Ab.

His reply for future reference:

In the FFEHB, a Forest Service employee can only cancel or change their benefits plan two times a year (open season), during a few weeks in the beginning of the year and in December. An employee can only change or cancel their plan out of open season if they have a Life Event (birth, death, adoption or get insured by a State or Federal program).

www.pe.com/localnews/rivcounty/stories/PE_News_Local_B_homes15.4393e5b.html

Homes planned for Esperanza Fire area, despite concerns about fire-prone zones

10:00 PM PDT on Monday, April 14, 2008
By Sean Nealon
The Press-Enterprise

A plan to build 150 homes on land burned by the Esperanza Fire less than two years ago has raised concerns among Riverside County officials and residents worried about fires and traffic in the rural, mountainous area south of Banning.

A preliminary report issued by a Fire Hazard Reduction Task Force, created after the blaze that killed five firefighters, called for imposing stricter building codes, aggressively fining homeowners who fail to eliminate hazards and having the county buy land to create buffers around fire-prone areas. Officials expect a final report next month.

Riverside County Supervisor Bob Buster, who spearheaded the task force's creation, said he is hopeful its recommendations will become part of the county's general plan, which is undergoing an update that takes place every five years. [click the link to read the rest]

TS

HAW HAW HAW, ain't it the truth. Yesterday The 4Gs tried to send in what I think was this link through another site, but you had to be a member to view it so I didn't post it. Thanks to both sting and The 4 Gs for the humor. Ab.

from the flyer, is the quilt the one we heard about, created by Nora? Ab.

Any donation from you will be greatly appreciated by all of us that have been
touched by Eva's passing. Your donations will go towards funding the monument. Any
funds received that exceed the cost of the monument will be deposited to the Eva Schicke
Memorial Scholarship Fund, held at the Sonora Area Foundation. Every donators name
will be entered in a drawing for A  QUILT donated by Eva's mother, Joyce Schicke.

Donations may be sent to:
Eva Schicke Memorial Fund
c/o El Dorado Savings Bank
P.O. Box 877
Twain Harte CA, 95383

So basically what Feinstein considers a wonderful new opportunity,
the FS could consider just the same old, same old... ?

Except presumably Congress expects them to come up with a plan.

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Lobo, I knew you could articulate that much better than I ever could.

So we now know what can be used to fund agency priorities, it comes down
to what will the retention group(s), Ed and RF do to fund the retention priority?

Lets make sure we all continue to help them, by reminding them what possibilities
look like outside of that "budget neutral box".

Stand together, stand strong people!

Here's a wmv demonstrating Doug Campbell's use of the Campbell Prediction System on the Fayette Fire near the Wind River Range in rugged Wyoming in 1988. In this 1/2 hour segment, Doug walks and talks with Bob Johnson, Ops Section Chief on the Fayette Fire, discussing the history and behavior of the fire to get an idea of the fire behavior in the future. Later he flies with Bagley to look at the fuels. Doug's approach - trying to develop a way for groundpounders to assess fire behavior on the ground so as to plan and institute safe tactics - was remarkable for the times and has saved lives, most recently in Spain several years ago. The Spanish firefighters who had been through the training recognized that conditions were becoming worse and got out when forces (slope, aspect and time of day) came into alignment with wind. Made me extremely sad that all firefighters that day had not had life-saving benefit of Doug's training.

Doug's Fire Signature Prediction Method (what it's called today)  is being used in Europe fairly extensively, as well as in the US by states, counties, and private firefighting companies. Its language and concepts have been integrated into fed training even at the S-590 level. ...Trigger point, alignment of forces, threshold of control, time tagged tactics, hot fuel, cold fuel, fuel flammability....What's the fire telling you? It's taught by Forest Service trainers and others as a stand-alone course. It's permeated the fire culture.

The video begins (after 30 sec of silence, don't be deterred by the silence, this is old video tech) with Doug's explanation of the shadometer that let him determine the Fuel Flammability Curve (which identifies the time period of peak fuel flammability on various aspects) and some other historical tools Doug created and used to test what the hotshot supts had said were the main factors (wind, slope, aspect, time of day, fuels in sun or shade) they looked at to try to anticipate fire behavior.

www.wildlandfire.com/videos/cps-on-fayette88/shadommeter256.wmv

Thanks for your efforts to get this historical video shared with the community.

Thanks especially to Original Ab for taking the 990 Megabyte video on CD and applying his magic to get it into a manageable size. That video file on CD was huge!

Mellie

\www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=17149

From the Siskiyou NF:

The Rogue River - Siskiyou National Forest will soon be advertising for a
WG-10 Automotive Mechanic position, please respond to the attached outreach
if you are interested.

(not attaching the outreach)... Ab.

Relevant to your question about job offerings on the OPM site:

I plucked one message that makes sense out of a string of frustrated messages on an intranet email. It speaks to me. I will not include the writer's name, but he says what many of us are thinking and feeling about the outreach and job announcement process and the stuff cramming our inboxes:

Subject Re: Vacancy Announcements/Outreaches
Date: 4/10/2008

All these messages should show managers that there are big problems with
the hiring system, problems with the proper use of computer e-mail, the
lack of direction and the lack of communication from the ASC_HCM to the
districts; and this one problem is the tip of the iceberg to the many
problems the Forest Service, like the Titanic, has today.

Why isn't someone with authority sending out a message to stop with all the
messages? Someone like the IT or is it IRM or is it CIO now. Who is the
director of the IRM? Why haven't you sent out a message?

Why hasn't the director of the HCM sent out a message on the proper
procedure for outreaches and job announcements? Who are you? Who's in
charge? One of your Employee Relations Advisors has advised us to just
delete messages. Several people including one person who says he spends a
half hour a day deleting messages is OK. Is this really OK? Is this a wise
use of taxpayers dollars?

One person who worked on a boots on the ground team which looked at
field-time erosion, noted that if you are looking for a job, that there are
websites to go to. What other solutions besides go to a website did the
team come up with, because, obviously, some people don't know where the
website for outreaches is.

This person also noted jobs are announced on AVUE and USAJobs. I haven't
looked on AVUE, but USAJobs announcements are pathetic. For example, there
are job openings that state there are jobs in California when the position
is really on the Black Hills in South Dakota, or other jobs are open all
year and have positions nationwide. In the real world, people apply to
specific jobs in specific locations. Why would a person apply to a position
that may or may not exist, in some place that the person may or may not
want to work and live? Are you reading this HCM director? I have a
suggestion for you, just like the real world, each job vacancy should have
it's own announcement. Then job hunters would know what and where the
position is and decide whether to apply or not. Is that so hard to do?

One ASC-Level 2 Desktop support person, suggested that we all set up a junk
mail folder in Lotus Notes and if we have problems setting it up to call
EUSC. No one I know likes the ticket system, and if you call and listen to
all the messages that state phone lines are down, computer systems are
down, radio systems are down, you'd know that this call and get a ticket
system isn't working.

One district ranger has suggested that we need a giant order of Prozac.

What about a CD with whale sounds or a burning candle for aroma therapy?

District rangers and managers should be listening to employees and be open
to suggestions and real solutions.

So people, you can take your Prozac and go down with the sinking ship or
you can raise your voice, get in the life raft, get to shore and help build
a new ship.

<snipped name>

HCM= Human Capital Management
ASC= Albuquerque Service Center
IT= Information Technology
IRM= Information Resource Management
CIO= ? Chief Information Officer ? guess on Ab's part
OK= okey dokey, all right

Here's the website with photos on the next page; as Normbc who sent in the email said, the photos age graphic.
www.rattlesnakebite.org/

Glad it was a success. Ab.

Here is a letter from the Forest Supervisor on the Wenatchee- Okanogan NF's
on the upcoming trial for Ellreese Daniels, Thirty Mile ICT3. We need to
keep him in our thoughts as the trial approaches.

GorgeFMO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okanogan-Wenatchee Employees:

The trial of our employee Ellreese Daniels is scheduled to begin May 5.
He was indicted by a grand jury on four counts of involuntary
manslaughter and seven counts of making false statements based on
actions in his role as crew boss during the Thirtymile tragedy in 2001.
I struggle with the reality of criminal charges against one of our own
employees. I was not here in 2001, but today I feel the anxiety and
fears of the firefighting community. I am also deeply saddened at the
loss families experienced. Yet, in the midst of this swirl of strong
emotion, we must go on.

I intend to support Ellreese by ensuring I do not interfere with a fair
and speedy trial. All we can do for the families, employees and the
American public is cooperate with the defense and prosecution by
providing knowledgeable witnesses to testify honestly and truthfully.
Then, let the justice system work based on the facts of the case. In
the end, the judge and jury will decide the outcome of the trial.

This case will likely generate national media interest. If you want to
speak with the media, then it is critical that you emphasize to them
that you are speaking for yourself, as an individual, on you own time,
not for the Forest Service or in any official capacity. It is your
choice as an individual, representing your personal views to speak to a
reporter. I offer this thought though. Ask yourself, “How will my
comments influence the ability of the court to provide a fair and speedy
trial”? If you are asked to comment as a Forest Service employee, please
refer that request to Glen Sachet (503-808-2790) in the Regional Office.

Some of you will testify as witnesses for the defense or prosecution, or
you will know someone who is testifying. The emotions of the tragedy may
return. Don’t hesitate to talk with your line or staff officer, union
representative, or contact the Employee Assistance Program for help.

I plan on attending as much of the trial as possible. When I’m not
there, my representative will be. I will wear my uniform proudly in
support of all employees and the Agency. I have identified a few
employees that will serve a variety of roles in an official capacity at
the trial, including keeping you informed of the proceedings. Others
interested in attending can do so on their own time, not in an official
capacity, with the use of leave pre-approved by their supervisor.

Maureen Hanson, Bobbie Scopa and I will be holding meetings at HQ and
the Districts next week to discuss the upcoming trial and answer
employee questions.

Finally, this has been and will continue to be a very emotional time.
Please be sensitive and understanding of the feelings of others around
you, and take extra care of yourselves.

Sincerely,

Becki

I know what we use or can use P codes for severity for. For 19 years I've seen the way our fire managers shift gears or double back on their core philosophy because we, oops they, have a P code or severity or not. What I'm not hearing, reading, feeling, and posting cynically about is this: There is currently no policy, mechanism, or even a plan verbalized to us on the ground on how a P-code will improve my subordinates and my pay, facilities, life quality and such.

Scrape

Stand together, stand strong said,

"Yes, the WO and RO can transfer and sanction the use of suppression p-codes to be used for some agency priorities."

It would have been better factually said as,

"Yes, the WO and RO can transfer and sanction the use of wildland fire suppression (WFSU) funds to be used for some agency priorities."

Sounds trivial, but it isn't trivial.  Based upon decisions related to both agency rules and interpretations of the law that land management folks use in their decision making process.

P-codes are just a tracking (job) code found as just a small part of FFIS, When funds from WFSU are most often redirected, the job code is usually WFSUSV, WFSUPP, WFSU (insert the last two numbers) etc.... Don't confuse P-codes with the greater WFSU discretionary appropriation. P-codes are meant to track fire suppression costs... not fire preparedness expenditures..... lol.

It is important to fully understand that the majority of the Forest Service budget is "discretionary funding" no matter what the spin or take is told to the employees or the public who are expected to be mushrooms. That simply means that Mark Rey says when, where, and how the discretionary funding is spent... fully based upon his priorities.

I fully hope that sometime in the future we get another JWT as Chief... Jack called BS to the political appointee process and being told what to do.

If you are a current employee, or a retired employee, or in the public..... Don't continue to live like a mushroom and be fed Bul#$@&........

Lobotomy

"...why I want my pilot sleeping in a bed..."

Re-read my statement about long travel times, crew duty day etc. affecting my off time. Riding in a fuel truck for an hour to the nearest town, finding a motel and then going for food are all time consuming. I can have a hot cooked supper and be in the rack long before I can be fed in these circumstances. We are not roughing it. We have cots, air mattresses and tents. Seldom are we out more than 3 nights before the crew moves back to home base. If I do feel the need or the crew thinks I should go to town for a night we ALWAYS do what the manager says.

"I want to say thanks for your service as a firefighting helicopter pilot. What you do is truly heroic. More than likely you probably have a military background as well and if so, thanks for your service to our country as well."

I consider heroes to be much more than people that do their job day in and day out. Remember fire is not an emergency. Heroes are people that do extraordinary things. I do have a military background but I was not a pilot. I was a Forest Service 9 season firefighter (smoke chaser, lookout, IR crew, helitack foreman, forest dispatcher) before becoming a pilot.

"Lastly, would I be correct that you and your fuel truck driver receive a daily per diem for hotel and food even if you choose not to spend it and sleep on the ground and eat taxpayer provided food at fire camps?"

You would be partially wrong, at least as far as my company is concerned. My company pays $X per day for food when we are on contract at our apartment where we have cooking facilities. It pays about 25% more when we are away from the contract base. It is up to us to buy our own food. Fire camp food is provided as a contract requirement but I seldom take advantage of it if commercial food is close buy. I've had enough of standing in line for anything. We do usually take advantage of the sack lunches if they are provided but this also seldom happens. You see, most of our fires are not project fires with fire camps and caterers. Our overnights almost always involve IA or extended IA. We carry food on the fuel truck and of course the Helitack crew carries food on their truck that we chip in to buy. Most of the summer we live off of the trucks.

As far as motels we don't get any extra money for sleeping out. The company gives us credit cards for lodging so there is never a reimbursement to us for sleeping on the ground. We do not receive the federal per diem that is paid. That goes to the company so it actually is better for the company if we do sleep out.

"If this is true, when you eat that taxpayer provided food, do you deduct it from your per diem salary you get from your employer?"

Again, it is a contract requirement for the government to make those meals available at no charge. However, I very seldom eat there. For example, in all of last summer I had 6 fire camp suppers and no breakfasts. My boss will begrudge me those meals.

"Would it be safe to say that you and others in your profession do sleep on the ground at times to help maintain your income and your lifestyle, so you can better provide for your family?"

I can not and will not speculate on other crews and their pay structure or motivation. In my case, no.

"If all this is true, then we have lot more in common then you think........"

I don't think that any of this has to do with Portal to Portal pay and its costs or unintended consequences. Let's talk about funding and costs?

Jim Reid

Feinstein snubs forest report
Jason Pesick, Staff Writer
Article Launched: 04/13/2008 09:10:50 PM PDT

Try again.

This was the message U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein had for the U.S. Forest Service after reviewing its report on firefighter retention.

Earlier this month, the Forest Service delivered a report ordered by Congress examining firefighter retention and recruitment in the Southern California national forests.

The Forest Service manages the national forests, including the San Bernardino and Angeles national forests, and leads firefighting efforts in those forests.

The report downplayed concerns that firefighters are leaving the Forest Service because of low morale and pay disparities with state and local agencies. It also had little in common with an earlier draft put together by California-based Forest Service officials.

"I am very concerned that the agency's recent report on firefighting recruitment and retention in Southern California fails to acknowledge serious challenges that the Forest Service faces in staffing its firefighting corps in the State," Feinstein wrote to U.S. Department of Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey and Forest Service Chief Gail Kimbell.

Feinstein also said she was concerned about the difference between the two reports. She requested a report by April 30 detailing the Forest Service's staffing plans, the number of open positions and more detail on plans to improve retention.

Also this week, the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association released a response to the Forest Service's report.

It said the loss of federal firefighters is leading to dramatically higher costs to fight wildfires and accused the Forest Service of a "systematic effort to mislead Congress on a variety of issues."

Forest Service officials did not return calls seeking comment.

Click their link: they also have a copy of the letter that Casey sent in and we posted last week Ab.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Mr Aikens, I worked many years on the Angeles. A person I worked with for many was a Paramedic. In fact we taught the EMS first responder course together around the forest and region. That started in the early 90's.

Mr. Reid, I'm not sure what company you work for but a couple of things I have noticed as a manager. Most CWN crews have company provided credit cards. Another issue obviously in the air world is quality of rest. As someone earlier said, most crews are on company per-diem. I have seen many a pilot eat a sack lunch, but not sleep on the ground for just those reasons.

Former Green Soldier.

INTERESTING READ:

www.peer.org/docs/fs/BrownSetsFire.pdf

This is one you must read from start to finish. A simple prescribed burn
escape by a Congressman from his land to NFS lands which would have cost
$250 bucks. Because he felt, as it was an election year, his peers would
use this against him, he pressured the agency to change to law!!! Then Deputy
RF Roberta Moltzen, once the DRF in R-5 wanted the violation notice (VN)
dropped since the Congressman was on the Appropriations committee which
oversees the FS budget and it would create bad relations. Eventually
Undersecretary Mark Rey and Chief Dale Bosworth agreed to break the law and
directed all to cease and desist issuing a VN. Fortunately the case is not
over.

As I read this, the section FSM 5303 (boring but necessary) reminded me of
the conflict that has existed for years between FF@AM and the rest of the
agency. In essence LE must have independence to conduct an
investigation....etc. Some time back, when LE was under a Forest Sup, if
the Forest Supervisor felt the investigation would create "bad relations" or
for what ever other reason, investigations were dropped! Since LE moved
away from that reporting structure, even though the agency has cut it off at
the knees by dribbling it less than needed budget, it has gone forth with
its investigations as directed by law!

Today, the band aids which have been used for years by the agency such as
EFSAs, WFSAs, fiscal oversight teams, etc are yet to address the real
issues of out dated organizations and roles and responsibilities of "line
officers" who didn't show up (join the agency) to fight fire, etc, but
because of the "traditional " organization find themselves stuck in the
cross fire and, with about half the appropriated budget being "fire", they are
in for a long frustrating career, as is management and the leadership in
FF@AM . Moving to 3 or 12 regions does not address the issue which LE still
faces even with their re-organization. Yet, as the agency gets "used" to this
change, it is better. Isn't it time to give the same consideration to FF@M?

While we have according to this investigation, an Undersecretary , former
Chief and other top officials who forgot that the cornerstone of any
organization begins with integrity, wouldn't you rather be in an
organization that lives and breathes integrity with less money than one with
a lot of money based on the good old boy system, and deception?

I'm proud to say I was and, in my heart, will always be a Professional Wild
Land Fire Fighter, but hang my head on this one...

As always
Q

Thank you for sending the Little Venus PowerPoint to me.

To answer your question about estimating the rate of spread (ROS):
BEHAVE, FLAME and FARSITE all predict the ROS.

My system does not address the ROS because the focus is to recognize the
variations in potential of fire in terrain.

• When firefighters are sent up or down a canyon they are in a
  topographic hazardous area. 
• When there is a wind forecast that is aligned with a canyon and folks
  are in the area during the heat of the day, bad things can happen. 
• When plans are delayed, there needs to be another evaluation of risk. 
• If  things are getting worse with time, there needs to be a trigger point
  for making alternative decisions. 
• Following a plan when things are changing around you is sometimes a
  recipe for the plan leading to trouble.

The Little Venus PPT is a good effort.

Doug Campbell

Ab added the bullets above. Doug is author of the Fire Signature Prediction Method. www.dougsfire.com/articles.htm Ab.

AB, et al.:

You pose the question as to why most of the 0462 jobs are DOI and there are very few Forest Service. Since I just went through the hiring process as the person hiring and now I'm trying to go through the process as a potential employee looking for a new job (someplace other than where I am now!), here's my take on the situation:

ASC- your overworked, underloved friends down in Albuquerque are eyeball deep and breathing through a straw trying to stay on top of all the hiring, pay, hours, and god knows what else right now. All 0462 jobs are being form fit and shoved into current "Nationwide" job announcements; individual units can pull cert lists from those. There are few to no Tech jobs being flown on AVUE or Usajobs. Usajobs have their own announcement numbers in order to streamline the process.

Basing my opinion on what I've found, and the whole "Outreach/Mass Email" debacle the FS had this week on Lotus Notes, I'd say we, as an agency, are accepting mediocrity as a the best we can do as an agency. Many jobs exist in many locations, but the outreach and notice system for those who are not in the Forest Service or who do not have the time at work to search through the inTRAnet Forest Service servers are not making it to the intended audiences. I make this statement

• based on the lack of applicants we have had locally for positions we have filled recently and
• for the fact that I haven't found position notices for areas I'm looking at, where I know there are open 18/8 and Perm positions that are unfilled.

My frustration with the lack of care and onus of being an HR specialist being placed upon ground forces by forest, region and national management is at an all time high. Going back to school for Engineering, Forestry, or some other upper level degree and getting out of the Forest Service looks better and better every day.

We are in a mess, it will take time to fix it. If the Chief thinks everything is ROSY, I'd request her assistance on Monday morning when I have to hire yet again, due to ASC problems and mistakes. Maybe some position clout will get me somewhere.

Thanks for the forum and the allowance of my rant.

ME

I appreciate the info. Ab.

Scrape,

I'm very glad you bring this up and no, we do not want to see more hours worked to solve retention. Yes, p codes have been used to move firefighters into place to prepare for a fire. They have been used for some activities that look very similar to what we use preparedness funds for. I've been waiting for someone to bring up your good question. Lobo can probably answer this much better than me, however I will give you some thoughts.

P-codes are used to pay base time, p-codes are used to pay a portion of planned unemployment costs, p-codes are used to pay medical costs if injured on a fire, they have been transferred to pay for some specific aircraft availability costs (not CWN), the NIMO program, severity, communication devices and even on occasion, awards. P-codes have been used for you to work a day off even when your not on a fire.

Yes, the WO and RO can transfer and sanction the use of suppression p-codes to be used for some agency priorities. P-codes are not just for OT. And now we learn that Feinstein and company approved the use of suppression p-codes to help fund the implementation of the retention plan.

Stand together, stand strong people!

"Also the California firefighters are NOT the only ones paid portal to portal, as a matter of fact, the only government agency that doesn't pay portal to portal is Federal agencies. City, County, and State fire agencies all pay portal to portal."

This statement is too broad to include 50 state wildland fire management organizations, and 1,000's of County and City organizations.

I do not believe that state forestry/wildland fire organizations of Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri North Dakota, South Dakota, and Nebraska (I have some familiarly with these programs) are paid portal to portal for in state, interstate via compacts or for in state or interstate response to federal incidents. More than likely the vast majority of the remaining states do not.

In most states federal wildland firefighters are paid an a higher scale than state employees. Toss in portal to portal and you will see few state organizations being able to afford very high priced federal help unless they know the FEMA tap will be opened.

Midwest Fire Guy

For some reason Series 0462 forestry tech jobs used to be only Forestry Technicians but now include DOI jobs as well (BLM, BIA, NPS, FWS), in fact are largely DOI jobs. Anyone know why? Does it have to do with the retention SNAFU (or the Series 401 snafu???) or perhaps that FS jobs get filled first and DOI needs applicants too, or because the FS jobs thing in Albuquerque isn't working out? I'd like to know for sure why the change in format and emphasis... Maybe it's simply because now they're listing jobs as 0462 or 0455? Ab.

If P-Codes are authorized to fund and implement retention solutions that means zero change to me. It seams to me they are going to use overtime, extended staffing, and off forest assignments ( cover stations on the San Bernardino instead of working on our own units fuels or facilities ) to "raise" our pay and "improve" our retention. How is our pay going to be higher when a south zone FS firefighter gets 36 hours of OT with nuisance staffing and working his 6th day when there is actually no fire incident on their unit? If we go off forest we will still be stuck to 16 hour days and 14 day assignments. When a forest service engine captain works his days off he gets to buy new tires for his pickup truck or get his wife's buggy fixed because he wasn't around to do the maintenance on it. If a calfire or county firefighter or engineer works their days they can buy a new pickup truck or pay some serious college tuition for their kids.

Signed,
Scrape

We can ill afford for these to become distractions. While I've never been one to predict fire seasons, I do know we will have one and that it will be challenging. As leaders, I expect you to ensure that you and those for whom you have responsibility are prepared for whatever lies ahead.

Translation: Fire season is coming, we must be focused on emergency mobilizations (large fire, IA, traffic accidents, medical aids, hazmats etc). He's right. As our focus shifts from "theysaid" to the "Hotlist" and as we begin to become scattered across this nation, we will not allow for a pause from our emails and phone calls. We will not take a step back for the summer and hope something is getting done by the Retention Groups back home. Prior to fire season ensure that your family and friends understand what's going on and, if they can, have them help keep things rolling. Ensure they know how to contact the Abs and FWFSA. Have them spend some time on familysaid. Talk with your Dispatchers and ensure they help keep the chatter high as well. R-5 waited until just before fire season to form Retention Groups. Lets make sure these groups are kept very busy walking the halls of WFTC over this coming fire season. Each of them should be unavailable for assignment and mission focused on the task at hand.

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

Portal to portal

My employer would not be paying me portal to portal wages. The Federal government would be paying it as that cost increase would be included in the bid price. But the Federal government wouldn't be paying it, the tax payers would pick up the tab, but then they have lots of money. Or there would be far less contracted machines available for initial attack, contract ships IA... CWN (Call When Needed) ships do project fires as a general rule. When I accepted the job I fully understood the pay structure and per diem.

Motel rooms are not as common in the Great Basin as they are in R-5. My driver and I spend many nights in sleeping bags, but this is often much preferable to an hour drive each way to a motel. I would rather fly until dark and be ready in the morning than to be commuting for 2 hours of my 14 hour duty day. Often, in light fuels I can do my most effective work late in the evening and early in the morning. I would rather do it that way.

So the answer for limited funds in California is to freeze or lay off teachers and inflate fire fighters pay with portal to portal pay? Maybe it's time for the citizens of the great State of California to elect representatives with some fiscal responsibility.

Just because local governments pay portal to portal is no reason for federal agencies to do the same. How often do city units leave their local jurisdiction for weeks at a time? If these local governments can afford this pay structure that is their business. The Federal system is built around the practice of moving large amounts of people and equipment for extended periods of time. But once again it really comes down to the money. When California and the Federal government have their budgets in the black and the tax payers are in agreement then we can continue this line of discussion.

Jim Reid

First off, thanks Casey for all you do. Its good we
have someone fighting for us. As our crews start
coming on, going through training and getting ready
for fire season, getting them ready should be our
focus. Thanks for taking something off our
overflowing plates.

Something that concerns me is the fact that most
everything I read has to do with the retention and pay
issues in SoCal, SoCal, SoCal. I hope if something
does happen that it encompasses all of Region 5 and
not just the three national forests in SoCal.

Its been brought up here before but its not cheap
living in California, period. Whether its the LP, the
Mendocino, the Six Rivers, etc.

Many of us commute good distances to our duty stations
so our spouses can find work in a "bigger city". Fuel
costs are really starting to have an impact. Housing
isn't cheap either. But most folks I know MUST have
two incomes to get things done for their families.

Interesting to note, a CalFire Captain, whether he or
she works on the Lassen-Modoc, Humboldt or Riverside
gets the same pay (recruitment strategy).

I just hope we don't get passed over again. You think
moral is low now..............

Sign me "hoping for a piece of the pie"
 

DIB

ES

Casey,

I hope you're right and we will find out soon, won't we?  I would suggest that someone ask the pay group lead(s) to see if they're going to consider all current levels of preparedness and suppression when they do the staff work and begin to build recommendations.  If that group is not thinking outside the box on this, then I guess we will find ourselves starting all over in about 4 months.

1) Don't place these working groups in a box.  
2) nothing seems to be organized, nothing seems to be planned out well.

My intent is to highlight these issues now and get those people who are working on the solutions to start "thinking" outside that box today, so we can avoid another BLACK TUESDAY ............ tomorrow.

Signed,

P-codes are authorized by Congress to fund the implementation of the R-5 retention solutions!  Is the RO and WO placing constraints on the process?

Film at 11!

Sorry to be a spoiler but when I worked on the Angeles, there were many.

"If Cal Fire can afford to keep a fleet of aircraft flying all year long, why can't the US Government?"

Cal Fire does not staff its full complement year round. And on little side note, CalFire does not own the aircraft (do a reg check on the FAA website, you will be surprised who really owns the aircraft). And in regards to the fixed wing, contractors provide the pilots.

\ James

" Oh and hey Feds, by the way, If I am away from my family and home, halfway
across the country, laying in a tent, without a shower for 3 days, I am
WORKING!!! I don't give a horses rear if you say I'm not because I get to
lay down for a few hours of broken sleep before waking up at 5AM to put on
cold boots and eat green eggs. These people are NOT at home, they are NOT
with their friends and family and they are NOT able to do whatever they want
whenever they want, thus THEY ARE NOT OFF DUTY...PAY THE PEOPLE, they're
working! Door to door!"

_HOG from Idaho

Well put. Ab.

www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_B_bspot06.44265f0.html

By MELANIE LADONGA
The Press-Enterprise

Last fall Brittaney Khong, 16, of Beaumont, created Operation Fire Angel, a charity that helps families of fallen firefighters.

She said she decided to help because she was moved by the firefighting during the 2007 fire season and a fire near her home.

With help from family, friends and members of the National Honor of Society chapter at Beaumont High School, Brittaney assembled Fire Angel kits with brochures and pamphlets from the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection with information to raise fire-safety awareness.

Each kit costs $5 and features a Fire Angel pin that Brittaney and her mother designed.

The funds received will be donated to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. [more - photo, comments, where to order - at the link]

Nice story. Ab.

No doubt, Casey. The Regional Forester Randy Moore said in Feb that R5 is not requesting or providing more information that might prompt Chief Gail Kimbell ask for more fire money. If you listened to the Allocation Committee Hearing, the Chief and Rey both said, "thanks for the extra funding last year; we put it to good use," but said, "no thanks now" on boosting the budget allocation (whether preparedness or suppression). Their failure to say "this is not enough funding" is why I think it's questionable that Ed's recent email will result in any new actions or solutions for retention. I do hope they think outside the box. My opinion, they need the R5 Chiefs to "get 'er done."

On another note: Anyone want to provide a short course for non-agency readers on where the $$ for preparedness and suppression comes from? Is it asked for (by the Agency) and then approved or not in the president's budget by the congress???  What's the thing with P-codes really mean? Who keeps a record of how well the $$ is spent for the areas like fire that Congress appropriates it for? This could be pretty simple, but a flow chart type of understanding could be helpful.

Readers, please keep in mind that the FS and other land management agencies ultimately work for the President, thus falling in the administrative branch of govt, while Congress is the legislative branch, and the Courts/Lawyers/etc/Judicial is the third judicial branch of govt. It's a system of checks and balances -- our strength in this country and also the source of many bureaucratic and political headaches. Ab.

This photo came in some time back associated with fires on the Shasta-Trinity NF in 2006. I didn't post it then. I doubt pot growing is a unique situation on our CA forests, north or south. In Fall '06 there was even a photo of Chief Bosworth on a Redding newspaper frontpage looking out from among pot plants.

When firefighters breathe in smoke from the fires in pot growing areas, they'll likely test positive for drugs... How would this fit in with testing? What then? My opinion; my question, and I don't inhale. HAW HAW Ab.

Hugh isn't the AD Association "chief" any more, but no doubt some of the retirees have an opinion. Ab.

Let's hope those working on this issue will think outside the box or at least understand what is available outside the box to use. Boxing yourself in with "budget neutral" language and only within the R-5 RF authority, is wrong and now we know it's potentially violating Congressional intent.

People, I would like to see some ideas on how we can recognize Feinstein for her work without getting into trouble. I'm thinking of writing her initials on my hardhat (SDF) this fire season. Like to hear your ideas.

Keep the pressure on, keep pushing...... I appreciate ab's keeping the sticky on this issue, this is NEW information many of us did not know about. You can rest assured the RO/WO is reading it today.

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

Pay attention to the 3rd paragraph from the bottom. Big Brother at its best.
Could Casey see if something can be done about it?

www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0408/040808b1.htm

OPM adds substance abuse services to federal health plan
By Brittany R. Ballenstedt bballenstedt@govexec.com April 8, 2008

Federal employees now will receive expanded coverage under their health plans to receive screening and treatment for substance abuse, the Office of National Drug Control Policy announced on Monday.

More than 5.6 million federal workers will benefit from the added coverage, under which health plans will reimburse doctors who screen their patients for a full spectrum of substance abuse behaviors, including illicit drug use and alcohol and prescription drug abuse or addiction, and then provide appropriate treatment.

The procedure, called screening and brief intervention, aims to break the cycle of drug and alcohol abuse and addiction. It involves a constructive dialogue between doctors and patients about the harms of substance abuse, addiction risks and strategies to help patients achieve sobriety. Health care professionals then refer patients to an appropriate level of care or specialty treatment, according to ONDCP.

The 2007 National Survey on Drug Use and Health found that more than 20 million Americans met the clinical definition of substance abuse or addiction. The survey estimated that 95.5 percent were unaware of their problem or did not seek treatment or interventions from health care professionals. [etc, click the link]

NPS Cap'n

We aim to please. Ab.

Twenty-seven year old Monica Lee Zajanc started her career in the fire organization in 1999 on the Boise National Forest in Garden Valley, Idaho on an Engine Crew. She moved to Lowman, Idaho in 2001 to work on a seven person engine module. In 2003, Monica worked for the Cascade Ranger District on a six person hand crew and then moved to the Payette National Forest in 2004 as a helicopter crewmember on the Krassel Helitack operation. In June 2006 Monica accepted a temporary trainee assignment on the Unaweep Fire Use Module. She was one of the ten firefighters that survived the entrapment on the Little Venus fire on July 18th.

In the days following the entrapment Monica was interviewed by members of the review team and fire shelter technical experts from Missoula Technology and Development Center. As with all members of the Unaweep Module, Monica expressed strong compassion for her fellow employees and was pleased to see the review of Little Venus was focused on learning from Unaweep’s experience.

When the first draft of The Story of the Little Venus Fire Shelter Deployment was completed, the Peer Review team called several members of the Unaweep Module to read them the story; giving them an opportunity to correct, change or add important details. Monica was the last to be contacted. On August 4th she listened to the story and made a few minor changes. At the conclusion of the reading, Monica said the story was powerful and thanked the team the opportunity to hear it and make some changes. She said she wanted to help with getting the story out to other firefighters. She asked if there was anything she could do to help. Our reply to her was - yes, we would use her to help get the lessons of Little Venus out.

Her final words to the team were that she was excited to be a part of a life-saving lesson to firefighters. On Sunday August 13th Monica Zajanc, Michael Lewis, Lillian Patten and Quin Stone were killed when their Helicopter crashed on the Krassel Ranger District. This report is dedicated in the spirit of Monica's wish that firefighters learn the lessons offered by the Little Venus Fire and apply those lessons in future operations.

Found it, huge file, not for emailing. There's a whole packet of presenter's info, too. Will be in touch. Ab.

I will try and send you in a direction that might help. Contact the Crew desk at the Eastern Area Coordination Center and ask where the closest T2 crew is. Ask about pick -up crew or OC type crew. (Basically an AD crew) They are crews put together of non-regular Forest Service folks. Eastern Area GACC has a web page of http://gacc.nifc.gov/eacc you should be able to find a phone number for them on that page. I also know that AR/OK/TX has crews that they send out. Hotspring Dispatch out of Hotspring AR is the dispatch center for them . You might try there if Eastern Area does not have nay crews near by. Good Luck.

R5 Dispatcher

This I guess is the R-5 "budget neutral" phase. As the Region develops work groups to work on the issues, we are probably in for another 4 months of waiting to see what's next.

As R-5 begins the new phase, I have a few thoughts for those working on the issues.

1. Do your staff work. Do your staff work and do your staff work.

2. Don't allow for someone to say it can't be done within the region. Never walk away from any idea.

3. Involve the ground, FWFSA and NFFE.

4. Get some people involved that are doers, people that know how to fix problems, seek solutions and people that know how to get things done!

Signed,

1 day, 13 hours and 37 minutes since the start of the "Budget Neutral" retention phase. We are watching and we will continue to push and we will succeed, because we are right !

Only thing I would quibble with is that the 7-day is off just a scosh, describing one day with no overhead. Obviously, losing either of your overhead (to single resource assignments, illness, injury or attrition) puts you on a slippery slope, although it's a little easier to 'hide' the loss with a 5-day engine. Then again, if the worker bees are light on experience (a trend which seems to be on the rise) and you're thin on overhead, you're farther down that slippery slope.

Fire is much like the military in our dependence on the 'non-coms' - they are the backbone of both outfits. For us these are the 5's, 6's and maybe 7's who are filling the gap between pogues and overhead. The very folks we are losing faster than we can grow more. Pretty similar situation on the hand crews. When you put the whole picture together, our ability to field solid, experienced fire crews of all types is on the decline, along with a fireground situation increasing in complexity all the time. As much as I hate to say it, this picture is NOT consistent with gettin'er done and everyone coming home safe and sound - despite all of us doing our very best to make the outcome otherwise.

I don't like 'em either, but I think them are the facts, folks.

Old Boot

Re the Feinstein Letter:
SenFeinstein-FF-Retention-040908.pdf (103K pdf file)

You gotta give it up for the good Senator from California. I would suggest each of you send her an email just to simply say thanks, thanks for the letter. She is hammering away just like you. At least someone from CA and Washington DC is shoulder to shoulder with us and our cause.


Note something VERY important in she said in her letter, page 2:

"I would note that Congress has already provided the agency with the flexibility, if necessary, to use suppression funds (P codes?) to implement firefighter retention recommendations within current budget constraints" (funding levels?).

If you read Ed's memo everything must be budget neutral? Does Ed know that Congress authorized P codes to implement retention recommendations? This would take budget neutral for preparedness dollars out of the equation or at least minimize the effects. If your Forest Supervisor or Chief returns from the BOD meeting and you hear "whatever we come up with it must be "budget neutral" (ie cut resources if you want more pay)" then ask if they discussed at the BOD meeting that Congress authorized, if necessary, the use of P codes to solve this? Go figure!

Of the 6 Fire Chiefs that I know, I trust them completely, 110%.

The Chiefs must remember the old saying; "Know what's in the kool-aid they just gave you to wash done that baloney sandwich.

Signed,

P-codes are authorized by Congress to fund the implementation of the R-5 retention solutions!

SenFeinstein-FF-Retention-040908.pdf (103K pdf file)

Thanks,

Casey

To re- iterate my point, breadth is the key to success in CAL Fire. Experience is vital, but it counts for 50 points if I am not mistaken. 50% is still failing. All the certs from the NWCG/ feds are crucial, and something many of your competitors may lack, but you can only accrue so many certs before you obtain no further points in that category.

More points: Go to school, finish an AS or BS degree, go to paramedic school if you are really serious, take FSTEP and CSFM classes at your local training center, have met many green brothers in my classes there. Go to a CSFM academy and that all vital 67 hour academy.

Finally to re- iterate, CAL Fire experience garners you a breadth of experience and raises the bar on your max points in experience. You are also able to complete CAL Fire specific training like Firefighter I Advanced and Commercial Industrial Certification and those are big points. If you want it, go get it, you can't expect any agency to instill a system that precludes its own employees from being competitive. I am not lecturing, I am only sharing a new perspective and my own experience, as on the first list, I ranked 11 and did what it took to move up 5 ranks to 7.

new to blue

Forest Service Retention Report

The FWFSA has completed its official response to the Forest Service firefighter retention report. It has been sent to our webmaster for inclusion on our web site as well as to a number of congressional offices and press folks.

In the coming weeks we will be following our response up with a discussion draft legislative proposal that virtually hands Congress a package of reforms to fix many problems without them having to do much of the dirty work. Hopefully some will look at it and say "hey, lets just run with this."

I presume it would be easy to post it here but our members, who pay the freight for us to do the work we do deserve the first look which is why it will be in our Member's area on the FWFSA web site. But, like everything else I'm sure it will find its way here soon.

To the stunning and humbling number of new members that have joined the FWFSA since the report came out, our deepest gratitude for your trust & confidence.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

We have the other certs.

boyz in the woods

I heard the FS is working with CalFire on some of the training. Ab.

Someone was asking about seven-day coverage vs. five-day coverage.
How it works:

7-day: seven people are on a staggered schedule with overlapping
days off. In a sense you have two people off every day throughout the week.
This maintains five people every day for 7 days of engine coverage. The
drawback is that some people only see each other three days a week.

5-day coverage is just that, five people all on the same schedule for five days.
This puts the truck off duty for two days, this being the drawback. The plus
is that the crew is together all the time.

M-T-B

Seven day example.

CAPTAIN 31	X	X	X	X	X
ENGINEER 31		X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31			X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X			X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X			X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X			X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X			X

Five day example.

CAPTAIN 31	X	X	X	X	X
ENGINEER 31	X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X	X
Engine 31	X	X	X	X	X

Thanks for that. Ab.

R5 Fire planners meeting this week.

Planners are being told that in reporting FFPC (FireFighter Production
Capability), to show all engines as being staffed regardless of vacant
positions if positions are funded. So, numerous Engines that are
unstaffed or 5 days a week instead of 7 days will be being reported
as fully staffed 7 days a week. This is how the FS is going to keep
Mark Rey's promise to Congress.

<moniker withheld>

Firefighters, A little educating might be in order for the non-firefighters reading theysaid and the hotlist:

Will firefighters please explain the difference between a 5 person 7-day effective engine module (requiring 7 firefighters) and a 5 person 5-day effective module (requiring 5 firefighters). (How many firefighters are required on an engine?)

• What are the effects of going from the 7-person type of module to the 5-person module?
• What does this really mean for engine availability, say over the course of a week?
• What effect does this have
     * on engine deployment capability for fuels projects or for on initial attack on the home forest?
     * on engine deployment off-forest on events such as pre-positioning resources for lightning busts? or other incidents where mobility and flexibility of resource positioning are key...
     * on the capability of forming up strike teams of engines for on-forest or off-forest assignments?
• One additional consideration is how does it reduce off-unit assignments for individuals? A 5 person crew may only have one FEO; if they leave, who's going to drive the engine? It can't be the mod leader. Or, how could the mod leader ever leave for an assignment? (The staffing issue, aside from financial savings, is that they can't get the number of 6/7/8's, isn't it? Those are the drivers, assistants, and leaders.) This leads to...
• What effect does this have on fire costs both on the forest when an engine is not fully 7-day staffed and on large fire suppression costs?

It would also be good if people on respective forests could provide info on how many of the roughly 275 engines in R5 have been 5-day vs 7-day modules and how many you think are currently 5-day and 7-day modules and how many are not likely to be 7-day modules again due to lack of module leaders and firefighters. This information was not captured in the resource spreadsheets that firefighters have sent in.

There may be aspects of this that I haven't thought of in terms of how this downsizing from 7-day effective to 5-day effective engines will affect our capacity to respond to fuels treatment responsibilities as well as to long and short-term threats including wildland fire incidents... Please chime in. Ab.

JP Crumrine at the Idyllwild Town Crier has a fine new article out... and this community is mentioned and linked... Ab.

www.towncrier.com/stories/story.3.20080410.html

Federal firefighters feel
no love from DC

By J.P. Crumrine, Assistant Editor

Within hours after the U.S. Forest Service (FS) released a report to Congress on April 1, firefighters were calling the day “Black Tuesday.” The report has gained no support within the firefighting ranks. They have lost confidence in several senior agency officials.

“I’m appalled by it. Nothing has changed. They’re manipulating figures. It’s equivalent to lying to Congress,” said Norm Walker, former San Jacinto Ranger District fire chief, who retired only days before the report’s release.

The FS submitted a report to the Senate Appropriations Committee on its ability to recruit and retain firefighters. Firefighting rank and file have been anxiously awaiting the study for months. [much more at the link]

Hotlist link for the entire thread on RETENTION

Take Care, AnotherDave

At the Regional Leadership Team meeting last week, the Regional Forester
charged Forest Supervisors to develop strategies to tackle four key issues
affecting employee morale and retention in the region. Today, the FAM
Board of Directors and Forest Supervisors from nearly every forest in the
Region met in person and via video conference to begin this work. Teams,
each lead by one or more Forest Supervisors and Fire Chiefs, will address
the issues of mission, pay, working conditions, and facilities. We'll
resurrect some of the work done in December to help them, and team leaders
will enlist others as necessary to complete their work and deliver their
recommendations to the Regional Forester by June 30.

There are some fundamental principles that will guide this work. First,
all of the solutions will be within the Regional Forester's authority to
implement. Secondly, many of these issues affect all employees within the
region and the solutions will consider that. Finally, implementation has
to be budget neutral... We go into this knowing it will require tough
decisions regarding trade-offs.

There is strong commitment on part of all involved to accomplish this first
step. However, this is a complex issue and none of us wants to dangle yet
another carrot or promise of a silver bullet. We accept the urgency and
are taking action to develop solutions to these problems. At the same time
we must avoid making hasty decisions that leave even more difficult issues
to the night shift.

Bottom line? The fire organization is a critical part of the agency's
ability to fulfill our resource management mission, and resolving issues
that affect the morale and health of this group affect the entire mission.
We are committed to move forward with this in mind.

-ed-
(Ed Hollenshead, Region 5 FAM Chief)

April 12 - Texas Hold 'Em Tournament (small pdf file) That's Saturday!

For those of you who reside in Southern California, help support the Foundation by participating in the second annual Texas Hold 'Em Poker Tournament put together by the Del Rosa Hotshots. Last year the event raised nearly $5,000. Download the registration form (small doc file) and get ready to play some cards!

DRHS Alumni Association

Thank you very much for your big help...
I'm going to contact Steve Davis,
THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH,

Best
Alexandre

"In the end I find that the FLAME process better recognizes the relative magnitudes of the factors that affect fire spread rates, follows a better-organized more direct process, and provides a better fireline estimate of how fire will move. If I did not think so, I'd have seen no need to work with FLAME for all these years."

The practitioners and experts in fire behavior don't view your process as a valid fire behavior exercise at the S-290 level..... It may be appropriate at the S-390/490/590 levels when models are used, but it is a confusing model that keeps folks from concentrating on real world firefighting activities during limited teaching time.

Simple fire behavior characteristics that kill and injure firefighters are best understood by firefighters who do it day in and day out.... with a full basic understanding of what fuels, weather, and topography mean. With experience and education... comes situational awareness.

Gizmo

I think some may be looking a little short sided at this list and its implications.

The long term hiring of this list will include many who are Rank 7 who came out of the feds and accepted a Firefighter I position in the knowledge it would help their score. 3 extra points for career credit is significant given the narrow score differences. The likelihood of GS-6 or below coming straight over as a Firefighter II is small. This being said, those leaving team green for DOD Fed fire will rank well diversifying their points; and then potentially make the jump successfully to CalFire like 2 people I know. Those like myself who left for a Firefighter I position will do better as I had time and opportunity to diversify my training in the structure classes the federal mission statement moves so far away from.

The reality is that the 4 people I know of who left fed fire last year and ranked 7 may well find themselves in a FF II job before the list expires and more feds will then occupy the Firefighter I ranks. Peak staff hiring of firefighter I's has not yet occurred and so its impacts this year are not yet known.

For those who are interested in CAL Fire you must embrace and attempt to incorporate the entire mission of CAL Fire in your training and experience to be a successful candidate in the supplemental application; as a handful of wildland certificates maxes the points in that category, diversity is the key.

It is my most serious hope that regardless of retention/ pay issues, and general unease in the direction of the next fed administration in Fire Management, that we can all (Federal, State, Local) continue the close bonds of mutual aid and advancing safety in the wildland that CA is known for.

New to Blue

Notes from the Mega Session at Albuquerque, 3/14/08. (44K doc file)

RL

Candidate ID  Candidate Count or Exp Date     Rank   Score
(snipped)
                  2 CANDIDATE(S)                1     98%
                  8 CANDIDATE(S)                2     96%
                  1 CANDIDATE(S)                3     95%
                232 CANDIDATE(S)                4     94%
                 13 CANDIDATE(S)                5     93%
                  5 CANDIDATE(S)                6     92%
                357 CANDIDATE(S)                7     91%
                 21 CANDIDATE(S)                8     90%
                530 CANDIDATE(S)                9     88%
                 23 CANDIDATE(S)               10     87%
                527 CANDIDATE(S)               11     85%
                154 CANDIDATE(S)               12     82% 

I currently live in Omaha, NE, and have recently been recertified to fight wildland fires. I did my original training/classes in Maryland when I was a volunteer for AmeriCorp in 2002, but was never called out. Since then I have gone back to school, and am currently working on my Masters in Recreation Admin and work in the private industry that is not involved at all with fires.

I am searching for a way to share my availability this summer, as I am able to leave work for a couple weeks and return. I was recertified this year with an Iowa County park service at the regional National Park Service Headquarters in Omaha. The Iowa Park cannot add me to their list as I do not live in Iowa, nor am I employed with them. The Iowa Park handles situations like this with the DNR, but apparently Nebraska does not. I have contacted the Nebraska Forest Service and they are not sure how to go about this either. NPS was also asked and they were not sure.

Any assistance in figuring out how to get "on the board" with dispatch somewhere would be great. Thanks.

BTF

Does anyone have stories of problems finding good and timely engine maintenance for FS
engines, crew carriers and helitenders?

If my info is correct, we have

275 engines in R5,

48 crews with 2 crew carriers each and

more than 25 helitack with helitenders.

These vehicles are all specialty vehicles and can't simply be taken to any old business for
maintenance, nor can they be taken to one shop where all maintenance needs are met.
There are only 2-3 vendors that can work on them for norcal.

Maintenance appointments that used to take 2-3 weeks in our own shops now take
(Dec-April)! and the vehicles have to be driven from one place to replace a pump to miles
and miles away for engine work.

These shops don't know the nuts and bolts of our specialty rigs so they're learning as
they go at taxpayer and forest expense. In addition to their mess-ups, there's added expense
in person days moving the equipment around, wear and tear on the vehicle, and gas. It's
expensive to move these puppies around from Modesto to Reno to Woodland to Sac.

Great idea to run mechanics through the A76 process! NOT!!! As many pointed out back
then, once the support is gone, if the outsourcing fails, there's no alternative to fall back on.

If you don't want your stories on theysaid, please at least send them to Ab so we can see
how widespread the problem is and if it will impact safety... (I can hear 'em reporting now
to the investigation team: "We were caught in the burnover because our engine broke down."
"We went over the edge because x-x-x part fell off." "We had that head on with the family
in the SUV due to problems with the steering column." )

Strider

Please be careful in what you tell an investigation team investigating a Fuels
accident/death, like the death of the dozer operator cutting line for a fuel break.
Call your Professional Liability Insurance lawyer before you talk with any
investigator.

WMM

Fire guts park housing; one person in Arizona hospital
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/08/2008 12:58:59 AM MDT

A fire that gutted a National Park Service dormitory at Glen Canyon National Recreation Area resulted in one person being flown to an Arizona hospital for treatment for smoke inhalation over the weekend. Firefighters responded to a fire at a dormitory housing 21 people around 8 p.m. on Sunday, said Marianne Karraker, permits coordinator for Glen Canyon. Everyone escaped the dormitory safely except for one person who was found unconscious in the building by emergency responders, Karraker said in a news release.

The person, whose name was not released, was taken by ambulance to a hospital in Page, Ariz., and then flown to Flagstaff Medical Center by helicopter.

The cause of the fire is under investigation. People staying in the destroyed dormitory have been relocated to the park's other four facilities, Karraker said. - Melinda Rogers

GOOD SAVE!

a2hs

http://coas.siu.edu/default2.asp?active_page_id=1202

Millard

I just figured that anything east of Colorado looked at this as all in a day's work.

That is a broad and sweeping statement. The federal land management agencies will have PPE, training etc. As will a number of state organizations and some of the higher profile national NGOs.

You're dead on with ROS and slope thing. It does not take much slope to get FM3 moving, or for the wind to slack and change the direction of spread, or in the case of a savanna for an eddy to form around the trees and "Ok" can turn into "Oh No".....

R-1 Mom

Yes, 33 million acres of Conservation Reserved Program administered by the USDA Farm Services Agency (FSA) need some management. And Rx fire is a good tool for a majority of it. (not a good idea for the acres with eastern white pine, spruce or other trees that will not tolerate much fire.) And in the near future those acres that are being signed up under easement (federal govt has title to vegetation management rights) as Wetland Reserve Program by the USDA Natural Resource Conservation Service (NRCS). The FSA administers a cost share program to apply prescribed fire. In our area to burn CRP you need a burn plan (no set requirements that need to be in it) and a burn permit from the appropriate regulatory agency. And since this is "ag burning" in most states these burns will be conducted outside EPA/State clean air regs. For the WRP lands NRCS has a pool of money to be used to apply Rx fire. Not sure how they are able to use those federal $'s on fire projects with out NWCG strings attached.

To their credits all of the FSA and NRCS offices I have come in contact with do what they can to foster safe burning. But they have no regulatory authority to say "Thou shalt..." when it comes to PPE etc. Their WO has worked hard at keeping the liability off of the federal govt.

Still Out There as an AD

I did a little searching on Professor Peter Schramm who started the restoration work there at Green Oaks. He was one of the pioneers in tallgrass prairie restoration. You will find his name associated with some of the earliest pieces of literature on restoration ecology in the Midwest. In a nutshell good quality tallgrass prairie needs a fire every 5-8 years to stay healthy.

Nerd on the Fire

Your suggestion that someone work with these folks is a good one. Galesburg is not that far from Joliet, where the Midewin National Grassland is located. It is the host station for the Midewin Hotshots.

www.fs.fed.us/mntp/

www.fs.fed.us/mntp/Hotshots/IHC_Index.htm

A little cross training (suppression/prescribed) would be good for all.

The Nature Conservancy (TNC) would be another logical partner. They are big into prairie restoration and the use of RX fire.
Looks like they are already active in Illinois. www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/illinois/volunteer/art18037.html

Illinois Dept. of Nat Resource could also play a role and via the association of state foresters they are tied to NWCG. (Another story if the follow it on their home turf.)

Midwest Fire Guy

K,

On my forest east of the Mississippi all Rx burns strictly follow FSM 5109.17 quals. Any units surrounding us that we assist also follows the same MINIMUM qualification requirements. What Agency was the detail for? I certainly dont want to start an east vs west battle here. We do burns from large aerial ignition burns to small 10 acre units. The rules of following the burn plan dont change. Did you file a SAFENET on the safety violations you witnessed? You/ I /, we all have a responsibility to report this type of behavior before somebody gets hurt or worse!

AFMOnorth

For some reason (fed) OSHA has determined that firefighting chain saw operators come under the standards for those involved in logging activities which is First Aid and CPR. Don't know what CalOSHA requires for CalFire.

The OSHA requirement under 1910.266 Appendix B states:

The following is deemed to be the minimal acceptable first-aid and CPR training program for employees engaged in logging activities.

First-aid and CPR training shall be conducted using the conventional methods of training such as lecture, demonstration, practical exercise and examination (both written and practical). The length of training must be sufficient to assure that trainees understand the concepts of first aid and can demonstrate their ability to perform the various procedures contained in the outline below.

At a minimum, first-aid and CPR training shall consist of the following:

1. The definition of first aid.
2. Legal issues of applying first aid (Good Samaritan Laws).
3. Basic anatomy.
4. Patient assessment and first aid for the following:

a. Respiratory arrest.
b. Cardiac arrest.
c. Hemorrhage.
d. Lacerations/abrasions.
e. Amputations.
f. Musculoskeletal injuries.
g. Shock.
h. Eye injuries.
i. Burns.
j. Loss of consciousness.
k. Extreme temperature exposure (hypothermia/hyperthermia)
l. Paralysis
m. Poisoning.
n. Loss of mental functioning (psychosis/hallucinations, etc.).
Artificial ventilation.
o. Drug overdose.

5. CPR.
6. Application of dressings and slings.
7. Treatment of strains, sprains, and fractures.
8. Immobilization of injured persons.
9. Handling and transporting injured persons.
10. Treatment of bites, stings, or contact with poisonous plants or animals.

Using a minimum standard of first aid as instructed by American Red Cross or American Heart Association will meet this requirement.

Researcher

MT

boyz in the woods

The class became very quiet and stared at me with their mouths open, they
had the "Deer in the headlights look" very similar to the one everyone had
at last weeks Regional Teleconference on the subject.... Finally after a
long pause, one interpreting young lad raised his hand and ask.....
"Mistwer Fiwoman... do we say Smokey the Bear or just Smokey Bear?"

The Moral of the story is.... Don't lie, just deny, and then you can feel
like you're doing something important.. such as fielding those tough
questions about Smokey Bear, while you wait out your high three!

R1 Mom;

I saw that “safety briefing picture” somewhat differently. First, NO ONE is wearing anywhere near adequate PPE. Tennis shoes, rolled up pants, shorts, gardening gloves with synthetic fiber cuffs, and bandanas all caught my eye. The girl with the swatter in the second row, right hand picture is only wearing one glove. Second, the professor is lecturing the students all in one big clump, not broken out into smaller groups. This suggests to me that there is no scope of control in place, meaning that the professor could not effectively manage the incident. I am all in favor of Rx burning, but I oppose what John McPhee calls ‘druids’… I don’t believe in sacrificing people to trees.

A2hs;

In my experience, profs rarely admit that one should have any certs to do anything other than a PhD. I personally believe, from flip-flopping between the corporate world and academe, that academic should be held to the same standards as corporations and land management agencies, when they are managing lands and supervising students. I think that students should have the same rights as any other workers, and professors should have the same responsibilities as supervisors in any other area. Thus, professors should need NWCG burn boss certs to do controlled burns, and students should have FF2 quals and appropriate PPE to participate. I know there are exceptions (and all credit and praise to them), but in my experience, many professors think tenure trumps all. Mellie probably knows more profs who have done this responsibly than I. If you read the prof’s website, he mentions ‘developing an ethical framework for ecosystem restoration’. What about an ethical duty not to barbeque one’s students?

I think there are two issues here: awareness and implementation. This ‘ecosystem restoration’ has been ongoing since the mid-fifties, and this is how they’ve probably been doing since then. Nobody’s ever gotten hurt, so why change? (tongue in cheek). Also, this school is in Illinois, where awareness of wildland fire maybe isn’t as high as it is out West. He’s probably never had a student equivalent to the Redding ‘Shots Mellie brought up. As far as implementation… Nomex isn’t cheap. If you count the number of students in those pictures and multiply by the cost of bunny suit, boots, gloves, hard hat, shroud, webgear, hand tool, and shelter, you’ve probably blown his research budget by a large margin. In my experience, unlike in fire and the corporate world, universities, especially 1,300 student liberal arts schools, don’t have safety budgets or safety officers with a lot of clout. Not a lot of enforcement of safety standards from the feds, either. I can tell a number of stories of students being placed in appallingly hazardous situations by professors with no accountability.

Getting down to nuts and bolts…the only entity that can tell this prof what he ‘must’ have in place for this activity is the University. I might say OSHA, but I have yet to see any OSHA enforcement on any campus I’ve been involved with. I have seen many profs flaunt or try to flaunt federal workplace safety requirements; I have only seen one get stopped, and she was working on a non-university property. Again, Mellie or some of the others who have worked with university-based fire science programs might have some better input. Hmm, there’s an idea, is there any institution near Knox College that teaches fire science? Why not double up and teach Rx burn tactics in combination with ecosystem restoration? I would guess that this university hasn’t thought through the liability implications of doing this activity, probably because it’s been going on for so long that they just haven’t thought about it. If they had thought it through, perhaps with legal advice, I doubt it would still be going on, and I very much doubt the pictures would be posted to their website.

Nerd on the Fireline

PS. Because the Knox College thread got me interested, here are some links to University prescribed fire programs:
Prescribed Fire at the University of North Florida (3.8MB powerpoint)
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/65521.pdf (47K pdf file)
www.cnr.berkeley.edu/stephens-lab/chaparral/index.htm
http://firecenter.umt.edu/index.php/project/Prescribed_Fire_Practicum....htm
www.swosu.edu/news/releases/2008/2008-03-10a.asp

There’s a lot more, but those are the ones I could find who were actually doing prescribed burns, not just studying the effects of other people’s.

Ab, Thanks for giving us a voice.

Here are your reps to the California State Senate:

Senator.Aanestad@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Ackerman@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Alquist@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Ashburn@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Battin@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Calderon@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Cogdill@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Corbett@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Correa@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Cox@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Denham@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Ducheny@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Dutton@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Florez@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Harman@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Hollingsworth@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Kehoe@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Kuehl@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Lowenthal@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Machado@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Maldonado@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Margett@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.McClintock@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.McLeod@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Migden@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Oropeza@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Padilla@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Perata@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Ridley-Thomas@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Romero@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Runner@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Scott@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Simitian@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Steinberg@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Torlakson@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Wiggins@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Wyland@senate.ca.gov,
Senator.Yee@senate.ca.gov

Just wanted all the people in California to have the address of the CA Senators to email them and tell their stories about Region 5 and how our Line Officers are manipulating the facts, Gary Biehl, being one of the biggest, and he has been called out in Reno at the Captains/Chiefs meeting and couldn't even back up his own numbers. Please take a moment and email your representatives about the issues. What the Fed FS does and the Fed Congress influences how safe from fire California's Public is.

And here are your two senate reps from CA to the US Senate:

Dianne Feinstein web form
Barbara Boxer contact

Shrek!

57-Never Forget!

My apologies for not explaining myself a bit better. I find nothing about burning a
prairie appalling, this type of RX burn is great way to revitalize and encourage native
plants. What caught my eye, what I got worked up about was there was nothing
safe about what I saw in the pictures, no PPE, students standing in unburned areas
with fire behind, etc. And as many know a fire in that fuel type can certainly surprise
you.

Nerd on the Fireline, you may know something about this; is there an RX burn cert.
that profs. must have to do this type of activity?

a2hs

OK, bunk me over the head for glomming on to the ecological issues rather than
the safety issues. If the professor had in mind teaching his or her students the
correct way to conduct an Rx burn in the prairie, a2hs is entirely correct to be
appalled ... yikes.

Still Out there (in this case, way out there) as an AD

Twenty years ago Humboldt State University Range Dept would do a prairie burn up at Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park every spring about this time of year. I did not see any more PPE in those days other than gloves. I don't know if safety concerns have changed in the intervening years. I do know that the Forestry Dept at HSU has fire courses and some of the grad students some years have been Redding Hotshots, so I would imagine there could be a greater consciousness of risk assessment and mitigation of risk surrounding Rx fire than in the past. Definitely something to ask your local universities if they perform such Rx burn functions. Would be a shame for a student to get burned while not wearing PPE and/or not having adequate knowledge of fire behavior.

UC Santa Cruz Arboretum also had Rx burns that one of my family members helped with. He only admitted years later that for some days after the burn he had hearing loss and ringing in one ear that was nearest the flames that loss/ringing persisted for some weeks afterwards. He speculated that he had gotten the inner ear fluids too hot or had ruptured his eardrum from the heat. Seems to be OK now.

You all know academics. Fire as you think about it (or model it) can be far different than fire on the ground. It's what you don't know that can hurt you, not what's in your experience or training.

Mellie

I haven't worked in a grasslands so my knowledge of the ecology is sketchy at best, but I suspect those working on the prairie fire had sound ecological reasons for their actions. I do recall talking with a forester-type-person in Missouri once who said the exclusion of fire and the presence of farms (that broke up the continuity of the fuels) has resulted in forests overtaking what had been grasslands in the past. Whole types of prairie have virtually disappeared for similar reasons, and non-native species have also put tremendous pressures on the existing prairie ecosystems. Once you lose the supporting habitat (in this case prairies) a whole host of plants and animal species will go away too, usually (it seems) with less desirable non-native species taking advantage of the situation. I'm also a big believer in using Rx fire as a safer way to give wildland firefighters their initial experience in working with fire in an open environment.

Still Out There as an AD

I saw these pictures on the web. It's a scary thought that someone is
"teaching" these people how to burn a prairie. To tell you the truth I
am a appalled that this could happen.

a2hs

Here is the link: www.knox.edu/x20672.xml#

Good news! Way to go John. For those who don't know him, this is a fine young man. Another project he's working on is firefighters donating frequent flyer miles to the WFF. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Senators on panel vow to reverse Forest Service cuts
www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/04/03/news/mtregional/znews09.txt
By Noelle Straub of the Missoulian D.C. Bureau

Washington - Senators on the powerful Appropriations Committee vowed Tuesday to reverse proposed budget cuts to the U.S. Forest Service and toyed with the idea of moving the agency from the Department of Agriculture to the Interior Department.

President Bush's proposed 2009 budget would reduce funding for firefighter readiness, hazardous fuels reduction, law enforcement, construction and maintenance, recreation and research, said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif, who chairs the Interior subcommittee.

“I don't know how anyone could really consider this a serious budget proposal,” she said.

The administration requested $4.1 billion for the Forest Service, a full 8 percent below 2008 levels, Feinstein said. But she added that the cuts are actually much deeper because the budget did not fully account for increases in fixed costs, including salaries and firefighting expenses.

“The way we look at it, the Forest Service is being cut nearly 15 percent,” she said.

Feinstein pledged to work with the top Republican on the subpanel, Sen. Wayne Allard, R-Colo., to undo the cuts.

Allard said the Forest Service was targeted more than other agencies, which was “not justified.” He said escalating firefighting costs shouldn't come at the expense of the agency's other programs.

“With fire seasons becoming worse each year, I can't understand why we would reduce the funds that go to train and equip our firefighters,” he said. “This will lower the agency's initial attack ability and lead to more catastrophic fires.”

Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey said the budget request did decline, but that last year's levels were historic highs.

He said the lower request for wildfire preparedness funding reflected, in part, cost savings the agency has achieved. He also said the cuts to state and local forestry programs are offset by increased funding in the 2008 farm bill.

The Forest Service will maintain the same number of fire crews and equipment, Rey said, and its rate of extinguishing 98 percent of fires on initial attack.

But asked whether the agency would have enough money to pay for fire suppression without raiding its non-fire programs for funds this year, Rey said, “Past experience would say that that's not likely.”

Forest Service Chief Gail Kimbell said the funding request reflected some “very difficult strategic decisions” at a time of tight budgets and that the agency continues to be a good investment.

Allard said the unequal treatment of the Forest Service's budget made him think that moving the agency into the Interior Department might “be worth some serious thought.”

The Government Accountability Office is looking into the possibility, at the request of House appropriators. Rey said the study will likely be finished late this year, leaving it to the next Congress for debate.

[more at the link above]

Fair Use Disclaimer

When I first started on the cadre for 490 Jim Bishop was an instructor for the course. He taught the unit on models and I made sure I caught his unit because of the energy he showed as a teacher and the way he conveyed a most difficult subject.
We not only have to understand fire behavior (become a student of fire) we also to be able to quantify fire behavior and its effects. As a Fire Behavior Analyst the transition from current to expected fire behavior can have dramatic consequences.
We have been told over the years that we each have to be our own safety officer for our safety priority might have to be #1. There have been times when we have to be our own meteorologist, and make an on the spot short range forecast, I would say to all of you become a student of fire, become your own FBAN.

Take Care,

AnotherDave

Hello,

I'm a French journalist for the prime-time magazine "Les 30 histoires" ("The
30 stories"), broadcasted on the first national channel, "TF1". I'm
working on few reports I will shoot in California in April 2008.

I try to contact Steve Davis a firefighter who was in Big Sur / Monterey
when they found a man (alive) trapped in his car.
Here is the story :
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/strange/news-article.aspx?storyid=95518

Maybe you can help me,
Best regards,

Alexandre.

Alexandre Barbera
Journalist
"Les 30 histoires"

Northnight:

I understand what you are talking about, Over forty and looking fearful on my
first exam. Got a few good ones the same day and in the same way, only I had
almost all the CSFM certs as well, still only ranked 11th. Hoping WO/RO will
come to the table with some way to make it equitable for all sides.

Best of Luck to you brother
smokeater

You're welcome. It's largely the community makes it so. We learn a lot, too. Ab.

JG

I think the RO and WO are just starting to realize that we are not going away and things are only going to get louder, so hopefully they will respond positively. We are not a fire community throwing things up on a wall and seeing what sticks. We are a community that knows what's right and fair and that equality in the form of pay, mission and potentially organizational changes (centralized fire) will come to us if we as a community hold firm. We need not forget that many of our cooperators both fed, state and local support us and we need them shoulder to shoulder with us, not used as a tool for comparison. We would fight for them and their issues as we ask them to understand and help with ours. I remember when CAL FIRE years ago received the new bargaining agreement under the Davis administration. All the CAL FIRE Capts I knew started calling and telling me about the excellent benefits they just received with the new agreement. I was glad for them, they deserved it. None of us expect a similar deal, however we expect and demand a BETTER deal then we currently have. Someone said quality vs quantity. We continue to push employees to leadership roles faster than ever before. I actually saw an application from a GS-6 AFEO for a BC position and the crazy thing is they made the cert. Employees are becoming FEOs and Capts faster than ever before. If we cannot make our Forest Service more attractive to work for, then I fear the worst.

I know some of the groundpounders and some management officials that were at the Dec 10 meeting. What we have not heard to date is what was actually discussed. Did they actually spend a week comparing hours worked by CAL FIRE and Feds? Was the issue of experience or lack of experience discussed? Maybe more details will come out this coming week. I hope so, because the people that I know that were at that meeting are solid people, very smart and hard workers who don’t attend meetings just to sit trough another meeting. What was actually worked on?

To the RO and WO lurkers; We are not going away folks, this is a different era and a strong movement. We our collectively the strongest wildland fire workforce on the face of this earth. Work with us, empower and challenge us to create and delivery better solutions to the problems. Or you can go hire more PAOs to answer all the incoming calls from CNN, ABC, LA Times and elected officials. It's your decision.

To the 3 R-5 Line Officers who are most likely very deserving of your LO Fire Management award for all your good work, please do not accept the award. To be awarded the same week your fire employees were slapped in the face with lies from testimony and reports on both coasts is not right. Remember the faces of those in your fire organization who labored, who sweated, swung a tool, hiked a hose pack, wrote a report and delivered accomplishments and targets to you. We are those faces. We ask you to say enough is enough and do the right thing.

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

April fools was a horrible joke on me.
First I find out that our "LEADERS" in the W.O. just continue to ignore the facts and truth of what is happening. Prostate exam #1.
Next I get the results of my FAE/FF2 test. Prostate exam #2.
Talk with Cal fire hiring specialist about non-existent ranking even though I have every NWCG cert on the supplemental hiring. Realize point system slanted heavily towards CSFM certs and experience. FED experience and Certs. worth a quarter same experience in CSFM fields.
Prostate exam #3. Wife in school and unable to work full or part time. FS salaries not going up. No cal fire job to help support. Prostate exam #4.
Realization that my family is spiraling deeper into bankruptcy. Exam #5

Thanks,
Mark, Gail, and Tom

With Regards,
Northnight

Burning questions
U.S. firefighter report raises concerns
Jason Pesick, Staff Writer

JW

Firescribe posted the beginning of that this morning on the hotlist thread on Retention: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3519 Ab.

In 1979 I graduated from HS, spent the summer in South America, and returned in the Fall looking for employment. Since I grew up on a cattle ranch, I decided I wanted to work "outside", and the FS seemed a natural choice, as many kids attained jobs with the FS before heading to college. Naively, I did not realize those jobs were mostly seasonal, summer-time only jobs. I attended HS with the District Rangers children, so I knew the DR well-enough to feel comfortable walking into his office and asking for a job. Well.............. in 1979 (Carter Administration 1977 - 1981) the Forest Service was in a time of lowered funding and "reducing" positions. He explained the normal hiring processes, however, they did have some money for the Young Adult Conservation Corps program and they had an opening. Looking back on it now, I was very fortunate to be hired heading into the fall and winter season. The advice I was given ..................... go to college and get a degree in something besides forestry. OK. I figured I would not mind being a teacher, so I headed off to college to get a teaching degree. During the summers I continued to work for the FS on an Engine crew.

I graduated from college in 1985 and decided to "take a year off" before starting my teaching career. Sometime during those years in college, the FS began to realize that they were losing a lot of experienced fire fighters with Knowledge and Skills (sound familiar?) and that they needed to start hiring and bringing up the next generation of fire fighters. So, in late 1985 (Reagan Administration 1981 - 1989) I was offered a permanent position within the fire management program. I was having so much fun, that I said "yes". I never did become a teacher (formally) but I do believe I have used many of those teaching skills over the years as a forester and fire fighter.

In 1990 (GHW Bush Administration 1989 - 1993) I decided to move into the Timber Sale Administration program. Timber was a strong program, especially in R-6 during those years, and moving into Timber was a good career move. I completed the TS Certification program and became a GS-10 Timber Sale Administrator. We all know what happened to the Timber Program in R-6. In 1994 (Clinton Administration 1993 - 2001) the rug was ripped out, I was a recipient of the Reduction In Force process and directly reassigned to a fire management position on a neighboring district. Shortly thereafter, I made the decision to leave the Forest Service. It was an arduous decision, made with a lot of prayer and thought, and certainly not made lightly. When I made the decision, it was like the world had lifted off my shoulders.

A year later I went to work with "the state" doing forestry and fire. For me, leaving was one of the best decisions I have ever made, however leaving is not an option for many people, as numerous of my colleagues told me at the time. I admire those who choose to stay and fight, and I feel for those who can not leave, but must stay and put up with whatever comes their way. Unfortunately there will always be a "fight" of some kind, but your efforts will (hopefully) make life better for the next generation. (After reading the post about "Courage", maybe I lacked courage, but I will say that it also takes courage to leave a job, and move into the unknown).

For those who are contemplating leaving, DO IT! You will never be happy if you stay, because you will always wonder if there is something "out there" that would make you happier. I left the FS for a variety of reasons, and I have not looked back, or regretted that decision. Every once in a while I will wonder if I should have stayed but then I will talk to some of my FS friends, former colleagues and co-workers, and I realize that I made the right decision for me. Is "the state" a perfect organization? No. But, they have offered me a variety of opportunities and challenges, and I am very happy, and looking forward to many more opportunities and challenges.

My hat is off to those who are willing to stay with the FS and "fight the fight", but I would also say, "do not discount other options that are available in other agencies." Lastly, I submit that a change of Executive Branch Administration, for the sake of change, is not going to change the internal issues of the FS.

Another former "green soldier"

Regardless of agency, we're glad you're here. Ab.

Here is an article about what the Forest Service really is concerned about. Helping "Big Brother"
to spy on everyone all the time. Guaranteed this is not just about pot plants.

The 4 G's

Pilotless Drones to Battle Pot Growers
By MATTHEW BROWN –

BILLINGS, Mont. (AP) — The U.S. Forest Service has bought a pair of flying drones to track down
marijuana growers operating in remote California woodlands.

Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey, who oversees the Forest Service, told The Associated Press on
Thursday that the pilotless, camera-equipped aircraft will allow law enforcement officers to
pinpoint marijuana fields and size up potential dangers before agents attempt arrests. [more at the link]

and another from the Sacramento Bee:

Aerial drones will hunt California pot growers in national forests
By Chris Bowman

(snip)

The drones will allow agents to assess potential dangers before making arrests, he said.

Once the plane's front-mounted camera finds its target, operators can switch the craft to circling
mode and activate a telephoto camera that transmits wirelessly to ground crews, De La Torres said.

Operators pilot the craft by clicking and dragging markers across maps on a laptop computer. The
plane can fly one hour on its battery charge.

One of the two Forest Service-purchased models has a "thermal camera" to record heat signatures at
night, he said.

Ruch, the employee group representative, said he learned about the aerial monitoring devices from
Jack Gregory, a recently retired Forest Service official, and filed a federal Freedom of
Information request to find out why the agency wanted to use drones.

Gregory, who supervised agency law enforcement for 32 years, said he cannot see how spy planes
would give agents an edge on criminals in the forest.

"Finding meth labs and marijuana plantations in the national forest is not hard to do. We used real
airplane overflights," said Gregory, who last worked as an agent in charge of enforcement in the
Southeast.

"Our problem is we don't have enough officers to take them down." [more at the link]

Readers, please recognize that this view is not some kind of slam or lack of support for the military. Our troops are as blame-less for the current fiscal reality as our groundpounders are. Ab.

Real change is measured by the amount of risk people are willing to take.
Joan Baez

She was speaking about musicians singing out a social conscience, but it's true
of all jobs where you risk censure for not continuing to toe the line. I would add
that to achieve change you need to put your body into action to write letters,
make phone calls, do what you haven't done before or haven't done often. And
then organize and inspire others to do the same.

Mellie

SG

Those who want to meet Gordon King, go to the El Cariso Hotshot reunion April 12-13 (Friday and Saturday) in Temecula at the Pechanga Resort and Casino. Registration is $35. A good time should be had by all... Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: April 2, 2008
Subject: Fire Line Officer Team 2007 Leadership Awards - Region 5
To: Regional Forester, R5

For the past 10 years, the Fire Line Officer Team (LOT) has presented Leadership Awards to those line officers who excel in four award categories: Commitment to Firefighter and Public Safety; Commitment to Restoration of Fire Adapted Ecosystems; Commitment to Partnership Efforts in Fire Management; and Commitment to Build Suppression Resource Capacity. We are pleased to recognize the following Region 5 line officer for her commitment to fire leadership:

Commitment to Build Suppression Resource Capacity
Jody Noiron

Today’s natural resource leaders face complex responsibilities. Whether nurturing the firefighters and the fire leaders of the future or ensuring interagency relationships are sound, a line officer in the fire arena requires hard work and dedication. The LOT is pleased to recognize line officers at every level of the organization who have excelled in meeting the fire management needs of today while preparing the organization for the future.

This year a significant number of nominations were received for a limited number of awards. Region 5 line officers who were nominated but not selected include: John Exline, Commitment to Partnership Efforts in Fire Management; and Ray Haupt, Commitment to Restoration of Fire Adapted Ecosystems. These nominations clearly reflect your commitment to fire management and leadership. Please extend our thanks for their exceptional efforts.

Congratulations! Award materials are being shipped to your Regional Fire Director.

Sincerely,

/s/ T.C. Harbour
Director, Fire and Aviation Management

/s/ Mary Wagner, Chairman
Fire Line Officers Team
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signed,
Never Forget - BLACK TUESDAY

bj

Some information about your congressional reps: (Posted it on the Sending Letters Hotlist Thread as well.)

Contact Your Congressional Representative

From InfoSearch, simply click on the map and you're linked. Speak your mind. Email your views.

Also for snail-mail addresses and phone numbers:
US Senate Directory
House of Representatives Directory

If you don't know who they are, go HERE, enter your zip code only and your reps in both houses will be selected.

I listed the California Senators below. A message on the web form followed by a followup snail mail letter may be the best. I don't know current protocol for type of message, security concerns and timeliness. Jump in with suggestions if you do.


Feinstein, Dianne- (D - CA)
I 331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3841
Web Form: feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactU...


Boxer, Barbara- (D - CA)
112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 (202) 224-3553
Web Form: boxer.senate.gov/contact

Hiding in R-4 with a very pleasant downgrade.

Scrape

However, I feel that we may be in agreement, that it IS we who are in charge
of our own destiny, and through efforts such as FWFSA's, letter-writing, and
voting, we can be accountable for and influence outcomes. I'm going to
reiterate below what I said in my first post that started this discussion:

"So, in the end, it is up to each of us individually and collectively to
hold our leaders at every level accountable. And we CAN do it!! Look at what
Dick Mangan engineered in Montana when ex-Senator Conrad Burns made his
idiotic comments about fire crews. We will have that opportunity on Nov 7.
We had the opportunity in 2000 and 2004, and were diverted by both the
liberal and conservative media by the "hot-button" issues like prayer in the
schools, abortion, etc. These issues are important to some. However, in
terms of importance relative to a once-great country rapidly going down the
tubes, they should not divert our attention from the issues of true
leadership.

"Because that's what it's all about, folks - leadership.

"Which one of those candidates can provide a good command climate, describe
an end state for this country, use SMART criteria to develop objectives, and
turn intent into action?

"And we will all live for 4 more years with the results of our collective votes."

Hugh Carson

Strider

I would like to start by saying that it is sometimes difficult to be objective about answers that do not agree with our intuitive perspective. Reviewing the statistics on the retention paper it is difficult for me to say there is a true issue. The high percentage of GS-04's leaving the agency is pretty high. We know what is going on there, especially in R-5, the apprentices (and others) are taking jobs with City, County and CalFire departments. There are also a percentage leaving for other reasons and jobs, one does not have to be an actuary to understand those facts.

Comparing salaries with another agency or business certainly has some pitfalls. I think of that in some comparison with my wife, she is a school teacher. In simplest terms, I make more money than she does. She works less hours than I do, Divide her salary by her hours worked, then if I would do the same, brings things on to level playing field. Or does it, not really I work my share of overtime, she coaches, her benefits are better, as well as retirement, but I have TSP to help balance things out. OK enough, I think there is a point there.

What then is the issue with USFS-FAM? No strategic thinking, no vision, little true leadership. That said we need to anchor to those programs that are working. What is needed in general however, is reform of organizations. A Federal Wildland Fire Agency is what is needed. The are so many issues that would be solved by establishing that agency and moving forward. Probably one of the biggest benefits would be a huge savings at the National, Regional, and to some extent the local levels. It seems obvious. What about, Doctrine, well it would have to stand on its own merits, but would be a better fit with a pure wildland fire organization.

How many issues would be resolved, how about a wildland fire classification all federal fire fighters. How would HR be handled, let ASC do it, eventually it will work, my prediction is by 2010. Why not have all IHCs, SJs and Helitack work under one set of rules and leadership. It will give the NIMOs a better home. If the agency works under DHS, funding will be better and there will be a higher level of awareness and support for the programs.

So retention is thinly hidden by the fact of wanting more pay. I do not work in Southern Cal, I do not need more pay. My issues are more that I am starting look at my career in the rear view and it looks better than it does out the windshield. Lets make a difference together, lets get the issues correct. Lets win the battle and the war.

Intothewind

• "An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."
• "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
• "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
• "The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."
• "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
• "When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative."
• "Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better."

Dan B.
my moniker: looking forward to getting back on team green

Yet in paragraph 5 he states the Regional Forester wants to fix the retention problem, "To that end, Randy Moore has asked that the Fire Board of Directors meet with Forest Supervisors to identify the opportunities we have to overcome the issue of retention."

We have already seen the Smoke and Mirror trick, it's gotten old. Once a liar always a liar!!

They have made their stand, now it's our turn. If you're not an FWFSA member, JOIN NOW! It's time to force feed them legislatively!!

Silly ed, carrots are for rabbits...

Forest Service buys flying drones to help find marijuana growers...

www.kxmb.com/News/225179.asp

JR

With great interest I have been reading all the posts from those upset with the "stellar" performance by Mr. Rey, I hope everyone will look at this as an opportunity given.. He dropped his hand and allowed us to see. Its not everyday that a public official does that. They are most often smarter then that.

I have been thinking all week how we can make an impact on the public (striking while the iron is hot) and our elected officials. Remember we (federal employees) are public servants.... so is congress, the senator's and our commander and chief. The general public has not a clue what federal wild land fire fighters do. Whether you go to the church of global warming or not, the general public did not have a clue about THAT until documentaries and other scare tactics were put in living color in front of them on the idiot box. So shall we contact Al Gollib (sp) or some other journalist that are willing to show how we sleep in the dirt, show how the bell only rings when we die, NOT WHEN WE ARE PUT INTO SERVICE (that's a respect thing that CDF does). Show the struggle a family goes through to make ends meet, to see the tears when mom or dad is gone during a birthday.... so on. To show the pain of family and friends who must go on without the ones they love, who do not return from an assignment.

You really can't blame an administration Reagan, Carter, Bush, Clinton, Bush, they are all corrupt, the idea of smaller government was distorted with the cutting of public services like our armed forces (to protect and serve its people not the will of government) and public services like federal recreation technicians (I could go on) that make sure the the visitors to Federal PUBLIC lands have a clean toilet or even make sure the campground is clean, Shoot, the FS can't even get that done right. When in fact we are allowing our ELECTED government officials to spend our hard earned easily taken (taxed) money and fund bureaucracy. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

I will gladly tell you I can not complain about my job, but I do not like how our rights granted to us through the "Bill of Rights" and the "Constitution of the United States" are being stripped from us every day, through ignorance of the people NOT the Government, we allow them to take. If we did not, they would not.

Who ever wants to blame an administration is just p*$%^ing in the wind cause they're not seeing/ looking at what is happening. WE ARE ALL THE DESIGNERS OF OUR OWN DESTINY, NOT THE GOVERNMENT, DON'T THINK FOR ONE MINUTE THEY WILL JUST ROLL OVER AND GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT JUST BECAUSE WE THINK WE NEED IT OR SHOULD HAVE IT, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, FIND ANOTHER JOB, OR BE HAPPY WITH WHAT WE ARE GETTING.

PS. I am not a leader, never was, never will be, I am a public servant, a wife to one of the best in leadership and the mother of two more coming up behind him. Its my job to raise them so that they know that nothing is fair, nothing comes without focus and endurance, and if you let it, things can and Will be taken way from you. So I teach my children their rights as free citizens and not to eat the <snip> that our elected officials are trying to feed them. "just because they feed you <snip> doesn't mean you have to eat it" When you are sleeping in the dirt or sweating through your boots and leather belt that statement just doesn't seem so harsh.

PSS read the "State vs. the people"

jj

I am concerned, though not surprised, at the amount of energy and emotion surrounding the Forest Service response to Sen. Feinstein's request regarding firefighter recruitment and retention in California. I am concerned that many of you feel like something was lost, and that we are as a Region in a worse place than before. I think quite the opposite and want to tell you why.

The Forest Service as an agency has given national attention to the issues we face and has committed to look at the issues we raised across the national landscape. There is implicit support for the Region to pursue any avenues available to the Regional Forester to overcome the consequences of our issues. Also, there is the opportunity for this Region to help frame and define national debate on the Forest Service fire and emergency management mission in this increasingly urbanized environment. In short, this is not the last word and we are going to take what we were given and move forward as a Region.

The figures indicate that our recruitment and hiring exceed our attrition. The data show that the loss of skills and personnel we have experienced have not affected our initial attack effectiveness; in fact, the data also show that in spite of significant increases in firefighters since 1999 our initial attack success rate has remained rather constant. Also, the figures indicate that, on a per-hour basis, we are paid at a rate that equals and exceeds the hourly rate paid equivalent positions in CalFire.

Arguing around the figures is rather pointless, and does nothing to move us forward. The national debate and a variety of efforts will continue, we need to focus on what is within our discretion to fix... and that is our intent.

To that end, Randy Moore has asked that the Fire Board of Directors meet with Forest Supervisors to identify the opportunities we have to overcome the issue of retention. Everything within the Regional Forester's authority is on the table, including pay comparability options. This group will be meeting (both in person and via video-conference) on Wednesday of next week to begin this work. While we know it will take time, Randy's commitment is that we will give this important issue priority and emphasis.

I want you to know that I have a great deal of pride in you and respect your professionalism. We all need to act like the leaders and professionals we are, and with an eye on the job we are here to do. For me it is equally important that we understand that the issues surrounding this debate can rob us of the situational awareness required to do our job safely and effectively. I want to ask each and every one of you to focus on the task at hand. There will always be decisions and other sources of angst and irritation. We can ill afford for these to become distractions. While I've never been one to predict fire seasons, I do know we will have one and that it will be challenging. As leaders, I expect you to ensure that you and those for whom you have responsibility are prepared for whatever lies ahead.

-ed- (Hollenshead) (not sent in by ed, but on the FSweb notes; sent in by someone in the community.)

2. To the best of my knowledge, Jim never received any compensation for the hundreds of hours he put into FLAME; he never received any compensation for the weeks of meetings, Alpha tests and so forth relating to the development of the course; and never received any compensation for the rights to the FLAME model. The only the exception is that some of his travel and per diem during the requisite trips to Boise and the test classes was covered, as it was for all cadre members.

Jim has volunteered many, many, many hours and spent countless dollars out of his own pocket with the single goal of keeping firefighters safe. So, please keep it to issues, have your facts right and hopefully you can regain some faith that there are people out there who actually care about doing the right thing.

Don Whittemore

Posters, fact checking is an important part of posting. Please send that extra email or make that extra phone call. Ab.

FIREFIGHTERS are being issued speeding tickets by the Iemma Government for rushing to life-threatening emergencies in fire engines.

In an astounding case of bureaucracy gone mad, the Government is sending infringement notices to the homes of individual fire truck drivers.

It is then left up to the officers to sign statutory declarations or take the matter to court to avoid paying fines.

Workers are threatening to refuse to speed or break any road rules on their way to incidents unless the Government immediately overturns the rule. [more at the link]

I put it on the Engines 19 photo page, not on the Equipment page. I want one, but powered by solar, maybe that one is? Ab.

We agree. Ab.

That is a difference of 1536 hrs that a CDF FF is assigned to work more than a USFS FF is assigned to work.
(A difference of 1336 hrs that a CDF FF is assigned to work more than a USFS FF is assigned to work in 2008.
Other comps will bump a bit below.)

Here is a very important point that brings it all home for USFS FFs:
for every hour of OT earned on assignment, there is an hour of uncompensated time.
(24 hr day: 8hrs base, 8hrs OT, 8hrs sleep for free)

SO I am going to count time that a USFS FF sleeps in the dirt, on the fireline, as time that should be compensated and hours "worked".

So I go back to the 1536 hrs difference.
A decent OT accumulation for

• USFS engine is approximately 800 hrs OT
• USFS helitack 1000 hrs OT
• USFS HotShot Crew 1000hrs+
  (These hours are an estimate based on my experience working for the USFS for 7+ years)

If you take these OT hours and consider the fact that for just about every hour of OT earned on assignment, there is an hour of uncompensated time, we can roughly double these numbers to add to a USFS FF's total. If I take a 1000 hr season and double the time to consider "sleeping for free", I add 2,000 hrs to the 1920 to get 3920hrs.

CDF: 3456hrs USFS: 3920hrs

USFS ff now has 464 more hrs per year then CDF ff. 464 hrs divided by 24 hr shifts equal roughly 20 additional shifts for CDF ff to equal USFS FF's total hrs.

I have friends in CDF who have told me 20 additional shifts is decent for a year but not the maximum that some guys choose to work. So yes, there are guys with in CDF who work more hours then a USFS FF.

But here is the major point of contention and has nothing to do with Cal-Fire: WE WANT TO BE COMPENSATED FOR THE HOURS WE ARE ON ASSIGNMENT, WE WANT TO BE COMPENSATED FOR THE TIMES WE RISK OUR LIVES AND ARE AWAY FROM OUR FAMILIES. Just as you are. How many additional shifts you choose to work in a year is your choice.

The hours between CDF and USFS are comparable, not 4,457 vs 2,768, for a difference of 1,689, which was reported to Congress by our "WO technicians". OUR "CHIEF" DIDN'T COUNT THE HOURS WE "SLEEP IN THE DIRT FOR FREE."

Dan B.

Give Gordon King an email and get to the former El Cariso Hotshot 50th year reunion! It'll be held April 12-13 (Friday and Saturday) in Temecula at the Pechanga Resort and Casino. I know Gordon King would love to know we DO appreciate him! You all can get together and trade aprons...

email: GKING1 @bak.rr.com (take out the space)

Registration is $35.

Mellie

Ab.

No offense, but why does your answer always seem to be to leave R-5? That might have worked for you but maybe not others. People can not simply pick up their whole lives and move to the Lincoln, the Prescott or the Boise. I am old enough to remember picking up guys from the bus station or the airport when fire season started in May, but was young enough to know when something is broken it needs to be fixed or the whole agency will be sucked down with R-5.

What if if there was a federal fire and only the red and blue armies showed up???

Former Green Soldier

I would say the same if Hotshot75 and others didn't. It's about balance. Some younger people can move. I could and did move often when I was young. It was exciting. The West is beautiful. My parents thought I was crazy to "be so far from home". This comment is part of the mix of viable options and opinions expressed here. Ab.

The overall Forest Service attrition rate in Southern California (9.4%) is
actually lower than the national Federal attrition rate (13.4%)

Are you serious? How could the attrition rate for GS-4s be 46.6% as
reported on the next page then? Did they just include PFT's? for the
(9.4%?) Hey! those firefighters with less than a 26 an 0 tour are people
too!

By the way fella's, even if it were 9.4% attrition rate of let's say our
fire module leaders, that percentage would be huge in our already
experience depleted workforce and in our complex fire environment.

And why isn't the (46.6%) GS:4 attrition rate considered significant?
Our GS-4s are not only the backbone and future of our organization, they
also are the ones who actually put the fires out! In perspective, the GS:
4 firefighter squirts water, calls in aircraft and cuts line with a
chainsaw, does medical aids, throws dirt, falls trees and protects
structures as opposed to the "PFT upper management elite" who effectively
hinder or obstruct the firefighting effort by supporting such obstructive
programs as Ag-learn and the constant nickel and dime-ing of firefighter
hours and equipment under the guise of "cost containment" and allowing
layers upon layers upon layers of administrative requirements, check lists
and useless qualifications to be in place before we are even allowed to
fight fire.

And why does the agency refuse to count our temporary employees when it
comes to retention or diversity statistics? Last I checked they are still
real people, who we pay salary and unemployment and who it takes at least
a month of red tape fingerprints, ag-learnin, refresher training, physicals
wct testing. etc. before they sweat and bleed, get injured and die with
the rest of us on the fireline!

Here's the cold hard fact, the only time that temporary employees are
counted as a statistic... is when they are injured or when they die on
fires such as the 30 mile, then they are magically turned into wildland
firefighters and become a statistic.

You know, I'm starting to agree with the "upper management elite" our
retention issue has little to do with pay or benefits. It may be the fact
that we don't like to be lied to is the reason people are quitting.
(BS'd) to those of you in the "upper management elite"

Its a Shameful state of affairs in the Forestry Service!

Thanks

Reality Check, as I mentioned, Casey's fax just after the Hearing was the same report. The graphs and tables were not the clearest. Thanks for pointing out the info was getting lost. Thanks also to whomever sent in a "clean version". I put a link to the doc version at the top of this page. It is interesting to see the email that went out to all employees that says you should not talk with the media but call the RO's PAO number. I want to let you know that each of you as an American citizen has the right of free speech, and in my opinion, the responsibility of making your voice heard to your congressional representatives. Carry on. The comparative salary analysis below is one of the analyses that wasn't done before the Hearing by the Chief's bean counters... Ab.

Thanks so much for the detailed analysis. It demonstrates the power in interagency sharing of information. Please give our thanks to the CalFire person who provided his information for comparison, ff4c. Greatly appreciate your writing in. Ab.

JS

I see a lot of people comparing salaries with a state FFT1 and a fed FFT1
and was wondering if they know these are not the same positions. Our FFT 2
is their FFT1 and their FFT1 is our FFT2. I dont know if it even makes a
difference but I thought I would throw that out there.

NoRcal AFEO

Good your airline didn't go bankrupt and shut down. Ab.

I left the Forest Service 2 years ago as a GS-6 as well as many of my good friends who I went through the apprenticeship with. I left because I got married and now have children. Where I use to get angry at not being paid for "sleeping" (more like 7 hrs of being in and out of consciousness) in the dirt on the fireline in some remote part of the country fighting fire, once I had children, I became livid for not being compensated for the time that I "slept in the dirt" away from my children night after night. I became extremely frustrated that I couldn't afford a decent house for my family, I lived in fear that if an unforeseen expense such as a car accident were to occur, it would devastate my family financially as we have to live PAYCHECK to PAYCHECK.

So I left 2 years ago and since then have worked as an EMT to gain the necessary experience to get myself through paramedic school, of which I will be finishing in May of this year, and get hired by a municipal fire department. I have missed my job as a wildland firefighter and I have missed the people who I went through life and death situations with. I have missed being part of the best firefighting team in the world that was charged with the responsibilities of protecting communities across these 50 states summer after summer. I have never stopped following the issues of the Forest Service over these last two years with the hope that something would happen that could justify to me and my family of me going back to work as a wildland firefighter, and I thought when Sen. Feinstein asked you to draft a solution to the Forest Service's retention/recruitment problems, that this would finally be our turning point. I was so hopeful that on April 1st, you were going to stand up for what was right, what is fair, and at the very least, what is TRUTHFUL, that I reapplied and accepted a position a couple weeks ago back on the district that I use to work.

As I sat there and listened to you and Mark Rey from my computer, I had a very similar feeling as when I learned my grandfather had terminal throat cancer. My heart sank and it would seem that the two of you don't realize or have received erroneous information or possibly have even twisted the information to misrepresent what is real.

What is real is you have a shadow of a fire program that you used to have, you have the hardest working with some of the most talented firefighters in the world who are leaving. Chief Kimball, you need to get in touch with what is real in your fire program: don't call friends of mine "forestry technician's" when some of our friends have died fighting fire as FIREFIGHTERS. Do not make comments and keep your staff from making comments that local or state firefighters are better trained and more professional then federal firefighters. My father, who has been a municipal firefighter for nearly 30 years, sent his son to the Forest Service to gain a work ethic and learn about firefighting; and municipal firefighters from the many fire stations I have walked into, have given me instant respect just because I have solid experience fighting wildland fire. I challenge you to ask any state or local firefighter what they think about such comments that local or state firefighters are better trained and more professional then federal firefighters.

My desire to return to a fire fighting program that is moving forward within the Forest Service is not unique to me. I have many friends who are currently working for other fire agencies that would love to return if they were able to be part of an organization that sees what is real. We all used to say to each other when we were working together for the Forest Service that we would stay forever if we could just get some better pay to support our families. Why don't we just start at giving us the respect of the title of firefighter and paying us for the entire time we are away from home out on the job. CDF would seemingly work more hours because they get paid to sleep while they are away from home, as is fair! ADD UP ALL THE HOURS WE ARE ON FIRES THAT WE ARE OFF THE CLOCK!

This is my last effort to stay with the Forest Service, and the clock is ticking, Chief Kimbell. Come meet with us, get to know your troops, hear what we have to say face to face.

Dan Blaul (please include my name with this text)

1) Didn't you get to be on NWCG review and push your FLAME model? I think
when I retire I'll get on the coordinating group committee that reviews what I want
to advocate. [This is about issues, Ab. Similar to retirees or non-feds getting on teams
and hiring people from the company they also work for sometimes. Undue influence?
Insider trading? Conflict of interest? (At least in working for the FS it's clear that
I can't push an agenda that makes me money.)]

2) If I remember correctly, even Rothermel's work was not exactly peer reviewed
and journal published. No disrespect meant. The science was pretty new. I'd
simply like to hear from some truly independent fire behavior professionals who
have been involved in journal peer review processes and who put their findings
out there for the whole world of scientists to comment on. Posting here is a good
start, but only a start.

I have great respect and regard for Marty Alexander.

Marty, sir, what do you think about the value of teaching FLAME in S-290?
About the assumptions underlying FLAME as a model? Is it going to keep FF
safe, allow them to be responsible for themselves, follow their Commander's
Intent? Apply the safest tactics to the current fire behavior? How does this stack
up against Campbell's method and FF's evaluating how quickly fire moves?

Ask those FFs in Europe while you're at it...

Seems to me that teaching FLAME and basing your decisions/actions on the
output makes decision making easy and maybe makes you dead! You don't have
to really think, just do what the FLAME output says. If you die, your death can
be blamed on the model. Wouldn't it be better to teach people the logic of what
to look for. Make the risks very real with a bunch of slides and stories. Get
firefighters to evaluate, use logic, to think. FF counting on a program is like counting
on a helicopter bucket drop or a helicopter pickup to stay safe. I don't do that...

Strider

Strider said on 4/5: My apologies to Jim Bishop and Don Whittemore. Next time I'll
work harder at making the contact to ask the questions behind the scenes.
(This is in reference to his comment about Bishop on the NWCG coordinating group committee; Bishop was asked to be on the committee after NWCG decided to include FLAME in the 290 re-write, not before.)

What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know,
it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.

(First attributed to Mark Twain.)

Bystander at the Water Fountain...

IAFF was very visible in the 2004 Presidential election, but their guy lost; this year, the IAFF yellow T-shirts are conspicuously absent on the National political scene.

If Mark Rey can bribe them with some big FIRE grant $$ for the next 9+ months before he returns to his Lobbyist roots, I'm betting I know who's side IAFF supports.

Hundekot

The new FSM 5130 and 5120 chapters are now posted.
If Forests choose to have red lights, then compliance is required by 2011.
If Forest choose not to, then they should plan on conversion to amber (or
removal) by 2011.

National Red Light & Siren policy

Compliments of Ed H in R6.

I put them on the Equipment 11 photo page, last 2 pics. They don't even rate engine page status! HAW HAW... Ab.

Writers, if you provide module information and perhaps numbers in your letters, consider getting someone you trust who knows the info you're trying to convey to give your letter a "factual proofread". We want to be as completely accurate as we possibly can. Ab.

Given an instructor who has had the opportunity to learn FLAME, it is not hard to teach or to learn, and students can see its immediate relevance to their needs on the fireline. Truthfully, the only parts that cause some students trouble are the basic arithmetic involved in adjusting wind speeds and in making spread-time predictions (and they can still master the central point even without the arithmetic). I'll comment on the value of dealing with those specific quantities in another installment.

Jim Bishop

Readers, see post below for the story Playing with Fire is referring to... Nice job on the help Del Rosa! Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Updated Information Please Refer to www.lafd.org/blog.htm

VEHIC
EB 210 FY x Paxton St.
Sylmar
Saturday, August 11, 2007
TIME: 8:54 AM
INCIDENT #: 0300

On Saturday, August 11, 2007 at 8:54 AM, 5 Companies of Los Angeles Firefighters, 5 LAFD Rescue Ambulances, 1 Heavy Rescue, 1 Urban Search and Rescue Unit, 3 EMS Battalion Captains, 1 Battalion Chief Officer Command Team, the Del Rosa Hot Shot Crew from SBCo Fire, LACo Engine 74 and Squad 19, DOT and the LAPD, all under the direction of Battalion Chief Ronnie Villanueva responded to a Traffic at the EB 210 FY x Paxton St. in the Sylmar area.

The initial report to the OCD Dispatch center indicated a minor traffic accident on the Eastbound 210 Freeway. The first arriving resources on scene was the San Bernardino County, Del Rosa Hot Shots, returning home from the Zaca Fire in Santa Barbara County. The Hot Shot crew were instrumental in providing the initial assessment and patient intervention until additional resources arrived. Once the men and women of the Los Angeles Fire Department arrived on scene, the incident was upgraded to a Vehic with multiple patients and involving 3 vehicles.

The incident began on the 210 Freeway with a driver being cut off, starting a chain of events which included a vehicle fire, a collision and a vehicle over the embankment rolling over and landing in the alley behind a row of small commercials.

There were 7 patients, 3 minor children under the age of 7 and 4 adults, transported to area hospitals complaining of minor pain to the neck and back, minor facial lacerations from broken glass and abrasions from the activation of air bags. No fatalities in the incident can be attributed to all occupants using of seat belts.
###
d'Lisa Davies
Firefighter/Specialist
Public Service Officer
Emergency Public Information Center
Los Angeles Fire Department

I have to admit that I am still young when it comes to the Forest Service but I have spent the last 15 years as a federal employee. Although I cannot claim to understand the decisions that are passed down to us, they do not surprise me. As I take in and process all the information of the last few days, there are a couple things I keep coming back to.

First, I am disappointed in our leadership and their "findings". I did not expect anything revolutionary but at least some half-hearted attempt to appease those asking the tough questions. Even if they were given bad information, the truth is hard to ignore. I am afraid that this situation will continue to be swept under the rug until something truly tragic occurs and that is unacceptable.

I am also surprised at the willingness of so many of the fire community to throw in the towel just when the spotlight is starting to turn onto us. We need to break out of this negativity and self-loathing. I know the people that I have worked with since becoming a "forestry technician" and this attitude is not an accurate reflection of those great people.

This is the time when we need to be heard. I would hope that this is a "call to arms". We need to stand up and fight for what we believe in!

We need to become a voice so loud that they cannot continue to ignore us. Use the system to let the truth be known. Join the FWFSA and the NFFE. Call or write to your Congressman. We cannot sit back and wait for someone else to fix this because we are that someone else!

-Underfunded

The example of a good letter was posted yesterday. I put it in bold so you can easily find it. Each of you have your own stats and examples you can substitute in the last 2 paragraphs. Local newspapers have a section for "Letters to the Editor". Modify it a little and send them off. Ab.

However, ABC used a PIO from the San Bernardino Unit of CalFire. Where are the Forest Service PIOs? Here someone finally wanted to do a story about what we are going through and they used the very agency that most of us are trying to go to. I can't blame CalFire for getting its newest engines on the nightly news but come on. The guy being interviewed stated that he didn't think there was a problem with our retention. For crying out loud, ask me or one of the many that got letters showing our rankings from CALFIRE, what we think.

Usually I sit on the computer and read all these post about our problems. I try to not get all pissed off about what our higher ups say and think. The beautiful sunsets and sunrises, we make more than other agencies, blah blah blah.... Give me a freaking break. I mean, I have to work all summer taking as little days off I as I can. I have to hope that once I do get an assignment, that the county/state div. I am working under is going to sign my CTR for 16 hours even though we are heading to camp a bit early. I pray for winter assignments like going to Texas, teach as many classes on the home unit as I can, and help out at the 2 South Zone Engine Academies just to make sure I can pay my mortgage at the beginning of each month. I work just as hard as the guys in red if not harder on fires and I won't be compensated to rest in the dirt away from my wife and family.

I have NO confidence in our leaders and wonder if I ever will. Do they really give a crap about us??? I challenge Abigail ( I refuse to call her Chief because that is a sign of respect) to come work on my engine this summer. Not just some crummy detail, I want the whole summer. From May till Turkey day. Hike hose, cut line and sleep right next to that cow turd in Kennedy Meadows or any other wonderful sleeping area across the U.S. The invite doesn't stop at just her. Any of you W.O/ R.O folks wanna join me, I will welcome you with my arms full of hose for you. I have a guy on my engine that leaves the fuels crew and goes right to IN N OUT to work a shift till 2am. He has a little kid and a new baby that he doesn't even see because it would mean they wouldn't be getting their bills paid and food on the table for the kids. That makes me sick to my stomach. Look into our eyes, live in our shoes and then you can tell me if we are compensated enough.

Anymore ranting right now will only stir up my ulcer even more than it is at the moment. What can we do to get the word out to the media? Are we allowed to make contact and do interviews regarding the issues? Someone help me out, I don't really mind going out on a limb to get our point across to everybody.

Bitter as always

This means Americans will face no new hassles when using their licenses to enter federal buildings or fly on airplanes starting on May 11. That's a good thing.

But the way this turned out is so odd it's worth repeating. States including New Hampshire, Maine, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Washington, and Montana have enacted laws saying "hell no we'll never comply with Real ID." And Homeland Security officials carefully ignored those public votes of condemnation, instead pretending that those states really intend to acquiesce by the next major deadline of December 31, 2009.

wrench

I'll work on that when I get a chance. Ab.

www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-23/1207184344241970.xml&storylist=orlocal

Hundekot

Please, contributors, let's avoid references to politics unless they're direct
comments from candidates regarding their stand on forest or fire issues. Most
people have their minds made up regarding the political scene or are in the
process of deciding. There are lots of forums to get into candidates and
political issues.

will be misinterpreted. I am in agreement that comments like "Vote the
O........" are not appropriate.

However, Misery Whip's post is right on target and highly germane to the issues
being discussed in this forum. The neo-conservative agenda is well-known and
openly admits their desire to dismantle and deconstruct the federal government
(Justice dEpt, FDA, USDA, DOI, the list is endless.) We in fire, with their
advocate Mark Rey, are seeing the results of that agenda. And it has a direct
result on our firefighting community.

So I hope you are not discouraging using the Swiss Cheese (god forbid!!) to
trace the causes of this "accident" in wildland firefighting back to its root
cause at the organizational level.

Which, at least in my view, in this case is not 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue but
rather to the Executive Office Building where I believe the true mastermind of
this attack on the very core of the American Way resides. That being of course
Vice-President Cheney, who for 7 years has engineered both an overt and covert
dismantling of just about every facet of the regulatory and management
structure of this great country.

It's one thing to recognize the ill effects that over-regulation has on both
individuals and business. But what we have seen over 7 years is a conscious
deconstruction of the government that protects us in some very critical areas (I
know you libertarians out there will cringe at that one! - grin). This has
been done through the appointment of either incompetents like Michael Brown to
FEMA or Gonzalez to DOJ, or through the appointment of very smart people like
Mark Rey.

So, in the end, it is up to each of us individually and collectively to hold our
leaders at every level accountable. And we CAN do it!! Look at what Dick Mangan
engineered in Montana when ex-Senator Conrad Burns made his idiotic comments
about fire crews. We will have that opportunity on Nov 7. We had the
opportunity in 2000 and 2004, and were diverted by both the liberal and
conservative media by the "hot-button" issues like prayer in the schools,
abortion, etc. These issues are important to some. However, in terms of
importance relative to a once-great country rapidly going down the tubes, they
should not divert our attention from the issues of true leadership.

Because that's what it's all about, folks - leadership.

Which one of those candidates can provide a good command climate, describe an
end state for this country, use SMART criteria to develop objectives, and turn
intent into action?

And we will all live for 4 more years with the results of our collective votes.

Hugh Carson

Please, contributors, let's avoid references to politics unless they're direct comments from candidates regarding their stand on forest or fire issues. Most people have their minds made up regarding the political scene or are in the process of deciding. There are lots of forums to get into candidates and political issues. I'd be happy to copy and paste messages back and forth behind the scenes. Thank you. Ab.

2008_preseason_fire_capacity_projection.xls (31K excel spreadsheet of resources in R5)

(Ab snipped initials)

Compare to www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/retention/r5_fire_staffing.htm posted yesterday.

Dear Senator,

I'm writing to you today in regards to the retention issue we are
currently facing with the Forest Service. I want first to thank you
for all the work you have done and help us with this battle for
better treatment which will let us serve the public better.

I have been following the meetings and the hearings closely. I really
hope that Congress does not believe what our chief has pulled out of her
hat. The data that she has does not represent what really goes on.

I firmly believe that for a honest answer you need to go to the
superintendents, the low GS-4 firefighters, and of course, Casey Judd
from FWFSA.

I am outraged when I hear that we make more than Cal Fire; why don't
we compare W-2s and see who really makes more even after accounting
for hours worked? I have worked on a helicopter module in Northern
California and we performed all duties that a Cal Fire helicopter can do,
if not more. I've been an EMT, have had to do medical aids, fires, and
even search and rescue. While doing my engine time, 70% of our calls
were medicals, so when Chief Kimbell says only 4 SoCal forest do medicals,
this is crazy. I risk my life for the public and only get paid 11 dollars
an hour; I can make more by working at a burger joint, and not have to
work 900 hours of overtime every year just to get by.

Regarding staffing, I'm from the Lassen N.F. and we currently have a 10 person
crew that is disbanded due to the lack of overhead; we have GS-5 employees
working as assistant engineers because we cannot fill the spots; we have
engines only at 5 day (instead of 7 day) effective because we cannot find
people to work. Regardless of what the Chief says, there is a retention problem.
Many of the people we are losing are experienced people we cannot replace
without years of training and firefighting under their belts.

Name

Casey Judd, are you still with us or is your mouth still hanging open in
wonder like the rest of us ?

KJ

Norm

Please take time today to appreciate those you love and those who love you. Sometimes
life is shorter than expected and, I'm convinced, those moments are key to our existence.

Dave1
Dave2

I love you guys and gals,
Original Ab, you're tops!

Mellie

Over the years I have desired to become a federal wildland firefighter, or as they put it a forestry tech. But browsing thru "TheySaid" and actually talking with current and former FS employees, my enthusiasm has waned. It really saddens and disappoints me to see so many firefighters face these types of issues. There's no reason why "any" GS level firefighter should have to struggle to make ends meet, given the sacrifice these people make on a daily basis. And for Overhead to disregard this is a SHAME. I truly Hope that change will soon come. Not just for the forest Service, but for all Federal Wildland fire agencies. and help young people like me re-establish the hope of one day having a great, Satisfying career as a wildland firefighter.

CLR

I cant believe the chiefs opinion is true. Either she is just yes sir/mamming the person above her and turning a blind eye to ……. you know all the rest of us whom she er, ehem “represents”, or she is very out of touch with reality.

If this ever gets back to you Chief Kimble, then here is what I would like you to know about life here on planet earth for the rest of your employees.

I speak for the people who specialize in suppressing wild land fires on the United states federally held lands. These are the people who do the work equivalent of six to eight thousand calories per day. This is on par with professional athletes or at least a hard laborer. The difference is, us wildland firefighters attend enough annual mandatory training to compile bachelors degrees. The difference is quite simply between the life and death of our colleges. It takes nearly ten years of specialized service, and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of training and equipment to get us to this place where finally we are blessed to lead others in our job.

The difference between my specific position and say a hard laborer, is that there are only around three hundred people in the world that are currently trained and (trusted) to do what I do at present. I would say that qualifies me as a specialist in my field. As I sit and pour through the excruciating minutia that it takes to bring on eighteen firefighters account for all their annual refreshers and try to do my best to keep their careers and qualifications moving in the right direction, it is a slap in my face to hear you say to congress that we do not deserve a pay raise. If the workload that a specialist and technician does is not enough to loosen the purse strings for you, or the fact that we are in a business where safety is paramount, and still we allow our best and our brightest to be pulled away, then allow me one more chance to reach you on a human level.

Quite simply stated, this job has become discriminatory. This job excludes all those who have families or intend on having them. A person who supervises up to ten people can still be eligible for welfare. The reason is, my wife cannot have another job with my schedule. The I’s and T’s do not dot and cross. She would literally be working simply to pay for the extra expense of all that is commensurate with the dual career family. I am literally GONE from May to November these days. There are so many mandatory trainings and refreshers and hirings that also go with my job scattered throughout the rest of my year, that I can’t be counted on for anything more than an income. Trust me this, with a daddy/mommy who is gone as much as we are, you need a strong constant companion at home to keep the kids “OK”. Ahhhhhhhhh so there in lies the dilemma….. I simply make too little annually.

So what do we do? Exclude those of us who intend on trying to raise a family from this career, or give us a little more money? There is also the question of why is this not a readily understood problem in our agency. Let me suggest that it is, and the folks who have the executive power to help us are generally done putting their children through college and have long since gained their buying power in the real estate market. O ya they are GS-14 step 8's as well. Well here is another update for those who haven't noticed. The price of fuel housing and groceries have quadrupled in the past ten years. Guess what has not?

-stickthrower

Take a look at the documents provided so far. Chief Kimbell looks bad because the Region gave her the info to do it. Rey is clueless anyway. Pena (R5 Deputy Forester) requested (on 3/24) from each forest, their forest resources numbers that went into the table (sticky post). He has to be aware of how different actual staffing is from staffing that was budgeted based on need and preparedness allocations. Why was that info not given to Gail and explained? Regionally, the buck stops with Randy Moore (R5 Forester). Ab.

In response to Mr Rey, I'm on a forest in North Zone and have been
to two medical aids in the last two weeks. I'm not surprised that he
perjured himself, but how are we supposed to trust and even believe
anything that upper management says. Perjury obviously isn't a big deal
but has anyone checked to make sure he has his AGLEARN done yet? We are
supposed to be developing a solid work ethic for our younger firefighters,
oops (Forestry Technicians) but why should they put forth any extra
effort when the WO and RO have already set their bar at 50%. Well I'd
better get out and help finish our targets so the RO and WO people can get
their cash award this year.

PS I sent a picture of a sunset to my mortgage company and they sent it back.....

NZSFEO

smokeater

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/retention/r5_fire_staffing.htm
(The table didn't fit across the page or I would have posted it here. Ab.)

We lost a battle today, however we will win this fight and we will succeed because
we are right!

Hold 'em to it!

We'd be happy to compile any info folks are willing to send in. Ab.

2008 Retention Draft: www.wildlandfire.com/retention_2008/retention_2008.htm

Although I was expecting somewhat of a let down today, I also was stunned at what came out of the briefing paper.
Instead of ranting, I would just like to say:

Thank you Casey for all that you do on behalf of our community. It is our honor to have you represent us in Washington.

Thank you to all the FWFSA members out there. Keep spreading the word.

And thank you to whoever (I think it might have been Don Will?) asked Randy and Ed if there was any thoughts about teaming up with the FWFSA during the conference call.

Change will come, illegitimi non carborundum!

Palos

Randy, Gail, Ed, Tom, isn't there a different way to do this that can
yield more productive results for this Agency?

Mellie

I am retired from the FS myself, got out shortly after my 50th birthday. I was burned out (no pun) and no longer wanted to be part of the impending train wreck. I walked completely away from fire and never looked back -- no AD, no contracting. Started a second career in a field totally unrelated to fire or emergency services. This website is my only contact with contemporary fire issues.

I was surprised at the number of my fellow fire retirees, who after retiring, walked completely away like I did and want nothing to do with fed fire anymore. One former captain described his retirement as "like a rat deserting the Titanic before it hit the iceberg." Another said "I am too old and too tired to continue hoping things will get better." These are common sentiments. All are now happier than they have been in years and have no regrets whatsoever.

GN

While I admit I have kept my options open, CDF, for multiple reasons, has been my last resort. Hearing the actions of upper management in the agency, however, is causing me to lose the last shred of confidence and pride I had in being a member of the Forest Service.

The restaurant I left was a FAST FOOD chain that treated their employees better. As a low level manager my annual salary was more than my engineers! Upper level managers are currently bringing in over 100,000 a year, a position I would have been in now if not for changing careers. I'm actually considering going back into FAST FOOD . . . lol

In talking with fellow workers on my forest, it's not about the money . . . it's about the quality of life. A firefighter that faces the risks that we do should not have to work two jobs or a thousand hours of overtime just to make ends meet. This is so wrong!

I hate crying about the problem and not trying to be part of the solution, so whatever advice is out there on how someone at my level can try to effect change please let me know . . .

Future burger flipper

I heard Rey say what Fedwatcher quoted as well. I was surprised. Ab.

Mark Rey also lied to the Committee when he said that only the four
Southern California forests respond to traffic accidents or provided
medical attention to injured forest visitors.

Please reference www.wildcad.net/.

Liar, liar, liar!!!

***PLEASE WRITE/CALL YOUR CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES*****
***********************PLEASE WRITE TO CHIEF KIMBELL**************************

************************DON'T SLACK IT OFF .... JUST DO IT**************************

Let them know your concerns ASAP...

This IS the time to strike if there ever was one. The Iron is hot.

Writing letters tonight,

-Joatmon

Fedwatcher

Wow! Zero.

My son is currently a sought-after apprentice employee in R5. I will be urging him to finish up his training and head for the hills. Blows me away that they did nothing to compensate those, all of you, that RISK THEIR LIVES to suppress wildland fires. $12.00 an hour? Give me a frickin' break! No retention problem? CDF making less than we do? Hey, I'm retired after 31 years and pissed. Maybe because, at one time, I was loaded with pride for the outfit. Not any more...... Thanks for the email for Ms. Kimball. She will be hearing from this source....

Casey, our gratitude to you will not pass in the wind......

The Picker

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ref: Office of Personnel Management (OPM) FedScope

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As of September 2007, the combined federal employment within the executive branch was 1,862,404 employees.

For FY 2007, the executive branch had a total of 250,779 separations (13.47%):

-- 62,244 Retirements (3.34%)
-- 88,673 Quits (4.76%)
-- 10,383 Terminated (Discipline/Removal) (0.56%)
-- 55,919 Terminated (Expired Appointment / Other) (3.00%)
-- 29,392 Agency Transfer-Out (1.50%)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As of September 2007, the Forest Service had a total of 39,185 employees.

For FY 2007, the Forest Service had a total of 13,857 separations (35.36%):

-- 1,297 Retirements (3.31%)
-- 4,834 Quits (12.34%)
-- 123 Terminated (Discipline/Removal) (0.31%)
-- 7,171 Terminated (Expired Appointment/Other) (18.30%)
-- 367 Agency Transfer-Out (0.94%)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As of September 2007, Region 5 had a total of 7,752 employees in California.

For FY 2007, Region 5 had a total of 3,167 separations (40.85%):

-- 225 Retirements (2.90%)
-- 902 Quits (11.64%)
-- 53 Terminated (Discipline/Removal) (0.68%)
-- 1900 Terminated (Expired Appointment/Other) (24.51%)
-- 65 Agency Transfer-Out (0.84%)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As of September 2007, Region 5 had a total of 4,320 employees working within the Forestry Aid/Technician series.

For FY 2007, Region 5 had 2,260 separations within the Forestry Aid/Technician series (52.31%).

-- 70 Retirements (1.62%)
-- 623 Quits (14.42%)
-- 36 Terminated (Discipline/Removal) (0.83)
-- 1488 Terminated (Expired Appointment/Other) (34.44%)
-- 29 Agency Transfer-Out (0.67%)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gizmo

I listened this morning. Readers, it's worth listening to. Good congressional support (Casey agrees) on the 401 issue. Ab.

WOW! Kind of what I have become accustomed to expect form the Agency but still amazed at the stupidity.

It is obvious that the extensions needed to address the retention plan were needed to water down the issue with shoddy Statistics work. Hell I learned that in the first session of TFM!.. I hope the Agency knows I won't be doing any B.S. Stats or smoke and mirrors to tow any company line!

I thought it was illegal to be intentionally deceitful during any type of hearing. Can anyone challenge Ms.Kimbell and bring her to her knees? How are we filling a 1,000+ vacancies last year with only a 9% attrition rate? How many vacancies are still left? Did we fill vacancies or shuffle people around to make it look like jobs were filled?

Forest Service Firefighters make more money than the comparable CALFIRE?...REALLY?... bring in the W-2s. I understand that the Chief and her cronies searched high and low to get the Base Hourly Wage for comparison, but what about the annual salary? What about compensable hours on fire assignments? Did the Chief mention that we were paying other Agencies 24/7 to do the exact same job that we are discussing while we might give our own personnel 15.5?

If the Chief spent her time and energy studying the issues at hand rather than trying to squash the Firemen we would have a solution already.

signed,
what the----

"Pay has often been cited as a reason for firefighters leaving the Forest Service, but for agencies such as CAL FIRE, increased employee pay is achieved by working more hours not higher salaries. Forest Service hourly pay rates are greater than for comparable CAL FIRE positions. Pay disparity with non-federal positions in Southern California is comparable to national averages, and lower than several other high cost of living areas."

That's funny. I'm an IHC Captain, I worked 1000 hours of overtime last year and my friends who are CAL FIRE Captains made more than me with their BASE salary. One of the guys went to ONE fire and made $100,000 by covering shifts and other various ways he got overtime. He spent most nights at home with his family too. Took vacation in July. LOL.

To be honest, I'm really not surprised with the findings our "leadership" provided.

Keep up the good work Casey, I hope one day all your effort bears fruit.

Sign me: hotshot capn

FP

Very fine interview... Ab.

Reporter/Interviewer: A hotly contested report regarding attrition of Forest Service firefighters came out today. It was ordered by Senator Diane Feinstein to address a high rate of wildland firefighter attrition and was 2 months late. The Forest Service made no recommendations to deal with the attrition. With us today we have Casey Judd of the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association. Welcome Casey, you've talked with us before.

Interviewer Q: Is money the reason why firefighters are leaving the Forest Service?

Casey: Money is part of the reason. Federal employees can't negotiate pay and benefits as can State and Municipal Firefighters and they get paid less. However, lack of support from the Forest Service, any support -- pay and benefits, working conditions, other issues -- more and more make wildland firefighters feel like the Forest Service (pardon me) doesn't give a damn about them.

Interviewer Q: So young people find Forest Service fire a great way to get their training and go on to other departments?

Casey: Not just young people. There are permanent career, firefighters coming out of the Academy, temps that come on seasonally, permanent part time 13/13 or 18/8... that are moving on.

Some come in as low as "GS-3" receiving very low pay and risk their lives. They receive no benefits. Three of the five firefighters who died on the Esperanza Fire were temps that did not have benefits. They don't come in for the pay, but soon find it hard to raise a family and pay the bills.

Interviewer Q: They have no health insurance or other benefits?

Casey: The feds hire temps and they have no health coverage, no Federal Employee Group Life Insurance; if they are injured they have a Workers Compensation process to go through, not right for firefighters who risk their lives.

Interviewer ... ready to wrap it up...

Casey: (presses on, good man!) I hope the public understands that the Fire Program of the Forest Service is in dire shape. The report from the Forest Service does not acknowledge this or provide suggestions to retain firefighters. I hope that the public living in or near national forests contact Senators Feinstein and Boxer to urge them to support firefighter issues...

Join FWFSA. Ab.

Listen online.

1610 (4:10 PM California time)
Casey will be on KGO News 810 San Francisco
www.kgoam810.com/listenlive.asp (Click "Listen")

I think I speak for all when I say, Thanks, Casey. Ab.

1515 (3:15 PM California time)
Casey will be on KFWB News 980 Los Angeles
www.kfwb.com/ (click "Audio" in top header or "Listen Now" to the Left)
(I hope this is the right place and that it's live; but sounds like sports. I'll continue to monitor until the next one at 4PM.)

Ab,

I've been trying to call you. I will be on a live radio interview with
KGO out of San Francisco today at 4:00pm CA time. I don't know
what stations around CA that entails but maybe you can post
something about it.

Casey

www.kgoam810.com/
I think this is the live news feed below; anyone know different?
www.kgoam810.com/listenlive.asp (Click "Listen")

I'm at a complete loss. Ever the optimist, I was expecting empty promises
of further analysis. To completely deny there is a problem is just mind
boggling to me. After sitting in on the RFs conference call, I was very
tempted to walk out the door and keep walking, but I've got less than a
year and half to go till retirement, so will stick it out, although not
with the same amount of vigor that I have in the past. I really don't know
what to say to the young folks just coming into the organization, but if it
was me in their shoes, I'd be looking elsewhere. That seems to be what the
agency wants.

TC

"FIRE" on our trucks should now read "F.I.R.E" which stands for:
Forest Incident Response Equipment. Lets take the lights and sirens
off too... we all know how much drama that caused.

Bummed

Outright disgusting!! shame Shame SHAME! on the Forest Service. After all the times we were promised word on the retention strategy and all the extensions the Forest Service got, this is what they come up with? Everything is great?! This really is a circus. Casey, bless your heart man, thanks for working so hard to battle these fools that fight us so hard. Kinda funny how they made it VERY clear that we are NOT firefighters. We are Forestry Technicians who happen to go to fires every now and then. Only when one of us dies are we firefighters. And even then it's not for very long. I am extremely disappointed in this agency. I really hoped that they would talk about doing SOMETHING. ANYTHING. But we got NOTHING.

Signed,
Blah

Wow, as to all the hope and months waiting, this is what they come up with! Very disappointing to those who are with the Agency!!!!! I can't believe that Agency thinks nothing is wrong. And it really all does not have to deal with pay, also retirement but that's not mentioned.??? What next? Who's listening now??

Not waiting anymore!

GA

It is very sad. I have keeping my head up and trying to keep positive
environment, but it is hard when this happens. What was stated is very
clear for all to read and understand.

I think we all need to recognize Casey and everyone else for the good fight
he gave 'em.

SG

Casey and the FWFSA are not done by a long shot. Ab.

This saddens me to see how blind they are.

Chief Kimbell provided testimony this morning before the Senate Appropriations Committee. During the hearing, she fielded questions regarding our Agency’s response to language attached to the December 2007 Omnibus Bill. The Chief shared some of the results of an analysis of firefighter recruitment and retention issues that the Region and the Washington Office conducted. I want to share these results with you.

During the past several years in Region 5 there has been increasing concern among field firefighters and fire leadership surrounding morale and the quality of work life. These concerns have been expressed in many ways, including a desire for increased pay and greater recognition for the types of work conducted in the field. Some forests have experienced an increasing number of firefighters leaving the Agency for positions with State and local fire departments.

In the recruitment and retention analysis we found that while some Forest Service fire employees have left the Agency for positions with State and local fire agencies, the employment data does not indicate that employee retention in California is unusual, or that it is affecting our capacity to effectively respond to wildfires. Our recruitment rate is greater than the rate at which employees are leaving. In addition, the rate at which employees in Southern California forests are leaving is below the national average.

Pay has often been cited as a reason for firefighters leaving the Forest Service, but for agencies such as CAL FIRE, increased employee pay is achieved by working more hours not higher salaries. Forest Service hourly pay rates are greater than for comparable CAL FIRE positions. Pay disparity with non-federal positions in Southern California is comparable to national averages, and lower than several other high cost of living areas.

As we studied the retention issue, it became clear that the nature of wildland firefighting is changing in the face of increasing urbanization. Because of this, we must re-evaluate the Forest Service wildland firefighting mission to respond to changing needs and resources.

The analysis indicates the Forest Service’s greatest challenge for recruiting and retention is at the lower GS levels, which tends to support the Regional focus on improving recruiting and hiring processes. Since July 2007, the Region has begun offering "open and continuous" vacancy announcements for firefighting positions, which has resulted in more than 1,000 vacancies filled. Offering open and continuous positions gives employees the opportunity to apply for positions, regardless of whether or not there is a current vacancy. This allows the agency to develop standing rosters of qualified applicants that can be offered a job as soon as a vacancy occurs.

Finally, I want to emphasize that this analysis does not represent the final word on these issues. In order to recruit and retain quality employees, the Forest Service will continue to study strategies that will ensure a highly capable workforce and protection of our National Forests.

To read the analysis go to http://fsweb.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/retention/

hotshot_up

That's the internal FS web link. Link to a faxed 8 page pdf file of the analysis from Casey is posted below. Ab.

Here's the document on retention provided by the FS to the
Appropriations Committee Hearing this morning. Please dissect
it, refute it, and shoot the info to me. (Mellie, deep breaths,
we will all keep working on this.)

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/retention/retention.pdf

Please email me with your comments at cjudd@fwfsa.org.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

That's just a blatant lie!!!!!

I need to calm down...

Mellie

SG

a2hs