"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
April, 2008
Home of the Wildland
Firefighter
| DATE |
|
| 4/30 |
Dear emt-mb;
Some of us know who you are and continually have you in our thoughts and prayers
for your safe return. Although things may seem the same over the last 7 months,
things
are hopping on Capitol Hill and hopefully folks will see some REAL changes in
the
near future.
Stay safe and get back soon. We need your dues !!! :)
Casey |
| 4/30 |
Ralph;
Thank you for your post; an excellent (in the opinion of one who wasn't there,
but has "been there" in similar... debacles) assessment of the Thirty- Mile
mess.
And thank you for verbalizing my surprisingly mixed reactions to the news; I,
too (and suspect, many other FF's), am concerned about the feelings of the
families and survivors. WE MUST REMEMBER the survivors and families, otherwise,
we dishonor the fallen. We must, as a community, with our actions, support them
in every way appropriate and possible, for as long as is needed.
This begins with helping them to understand what happened, and why, and how it
could come about; them doing everything we can to change the system (example:
your ICT- 3 review team; a good start, but not an end in itself) so that these
incidents stop occurring. We can't stop the fires from occurring, but we can
minimize the confusion and fatigue...). This will require, of course, some
brutal honesty and open communication from those of us who have been placed in
these hectic, confused changes- of- command, etc.; sometimes, will even require
some painful admissions about the part(s) we played.
But, I still feel very strongly that crucifying a relatively new IC3 will do
nothing toward preventing future tragedies, and in fact, would probably
contribute to the problem, rather than the solution.
Congratulations, Ellreese, Tina (GREAT job!!), and all his supporters.
Support the Survivors!
Pyro |
| 4/29 |
Readers, Check out our
Home page,
the
Wallpaper page and
Fire36 photo page with an eye on the photos. "Bubba" McConnell has sent in
some great flames photos he took during the Ft Carson fire the week of April15.
The photo on the home page will be a candidate for the '09 wildlandfire.com
calendar for sure.
Remember as you're out an about this season to take some photos. Ab.
|
| 4/29 |
Wow Gizmo- Your post from 4/24 was moving. You're absolutely right, we have to
do
better, as an agency and as people. You have a strong sense of hope.
I just got done with a three day symposium on fire ecology in the Klamath
Region, and a take home message was hope. Hope that, given the knowledge
base we have, that better decisions will be made in the future. Its seems
to me that many are full of hope right now, hope for better leadership, better
pay, better representation. I have hope that the agency will see the great
benefit
of Appropriate Management Response (AMR), a topic much discussed
during the symposium. It will be a better day when we recognize that not
all fires must be suppressed and alot of resources are simply not more
valuable than the life of a fire fighter.
Klamathman |
| 4/29 |
R5 Vacancies Here is a website that has close to a hundred R5 Vacancies if not
more
that should be known to the Regional Staff. They are not completely up to
date as we have a GS-07, GS-06 and Senior FF positions not listed for our
district handcrew that is shut down due to unstaffed positions. Our
district has no Senior FF positions filled for 5 engines.
This website shows open positions for GS-06 thru GS-11 in R5 for
overhead, hand crews, engines, helitack, and prevention.
www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/trackingdb/postings.html
signed just another North Zone Captain |
| 4/29 |
While I am sure that most of us are relieved that Daniels was able to negotiate
a plea, I feel sorrow for the Weaver family and the families of the other brave
young people who died in that tragic event. They must be feeling that no one is
being held accountable, and that nothing was done to prevent similar future
tragedies. I wish they could know otherwise..... Some of us knew, and more do
today, that fatigue is a common factor in many major events such as Thirtymile.
Missoula has produced research showing that a 24 hour shift can cause
situational awareness loss similar to that of intoxication.
When one looks at the timeline, and reads the report, it is apparent that all
members must have been into advanced stages of fatigue. To assign "blame" to a
person who reacts to fatigue in a predictable manner is futile and
counter-productive.
What can/has been done to prevent future tragedies?
My unit will not dispatch resources to an extended attack incident late at
night. Why create a "fatigue" situation from the outset. The GACC has adopted
this as SOP and while they give forests a "heads up" resource order late at
night, they do not expect travel to begin until a crew is rested.
In addition the testing of ICT3s has identified those who lack the
experience, skills or leadership qualities to retain those red-card quals. I
serve (still) as a member of a regional evaluation team. We were not shy to
remove qualification cards from those who "failed" the STEX test.
With the Weaver family fully in mind, our ultimate evaluation question to
panel members was "Would you want your son or daughter working for this IC?"
For me the report on the tragedy of Thirtymile seemed to follow a predictable
script.
- The crew should never have been dispatched late at night.
- The crew boss, squad bosses and crew members should have refused to
travel.
- Upon arrival, the crew should have been rested.
- I don't see that any formal designation/transition of IC to Daniels ever
took place (may have been left out of report)
- Crew performed in acceptable manner, recognized fire growth and dis-engaged.
Most recognized they were experiencing fatigue.
- The arrival of the engines (resources that I don't see the IC ordered),
- the "check-in" that does not appear to have been performed to standard
-the engine boss instructing the IC to come assist.....
-the willingness of the crew to re-engage
All indicate poor judgment...... which is just as predictable for fatigued
people as if they had been intoxicated.
Lessons learned:
- MANAGE FATIGUE
- All crew members can and must turn down unsafe assignments.
- Evaluate leadership. Remove those who cannot or will not perform.
God bless the families of these fine young people. May they come to know
peace, and to know that across the country, firefighters did indeed learn from
their tragic loss.....and maybe somewhere, someday, that might save a life.
Ya'll take care.
Ralph
Thanks, my friend. Ab. |
| 4/28 |
Hey All,
Black Tuesday Wrist Bands that we ordered have arrived. We're
making these available for a buck apiece with a minimum order of 10. Free
shipping. Proceeds to the FWFSA.
The Abs.
Here's the message on the
wildlandfire.com store. Go there. click for the larger picture. You can wear
them inside or outside. Get your orders in!
Black Tuesday Wrist Bands - 10 for $10.00
On April 1st, 2008, in complete opposition to and denial of a wealth of
assembled statistics, the Chief of the US Forest Service and her boss Mark Rey
appeared before a Congressional Committee and provided testimony that an
overwhelming majority of shocked and dismayed federal firefighters viewed either
as outrageously ignorant or as blatant lies.
Wildlandfire.com considers federal agencies employees' issues of recruitment and
retention critical in maintaining the elite firefighting organizations the
public is accustomed and entitled to. With that in mind, we offer this silicone
wrist band to be worn by any and all persons wanting to show their support for
firefighters and others who are truly trying to solve the firefighter retention
issue.
All income received from this product will be forwarded to the FWFSA to use as
they best see fit to continue their untiring leadership in educating Congress,
other elected officials, and an increasingly attentive media.
To help us keep our free shipping costs as low as possible, please note that
each $10.00 order includes 10 each of the wrist bands. Any number less than 10
basically isn't worth our processing of the payment. All bands are size large (8
inches circumference) and colored with white lettering embossed on black band.
Black Tuesday Wrist Bands - 10 for $10.00 |
| 4/28 |
Hi Abs, this is emt_mb from Indiana Dunes NL.
I'm deployed to Iraq again and found some free time in my hands to I thought I'd
drop in and check on They Said.
I see not much has changed in the last 7 months since I exchanged my nomex
uniform for my combat uniform.
Budgets are still a hot topic, 401 series is more jacked up than before, and
firefighters are already being killed. And it's only April.
I don’t know which job is safer anymore.
I see someone's signature is 'Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY." For me, Black Tuesday
was 9/11/01. Can someone fill me in on that one?
Take care,
emt_mb
<snip>
KuwaitHi emt_mb,
April 1, 2008 (Black Tuesday) was the day that Mark Rey and Gail Kimbell (FS
chief) lied (or were badly misinformed) about firefighter retention as they
testified in a hearing of the House Appropriations Committee (chaired by
Feinstein).
There had been a week-long meeting of groundpounders and fire managers who
worked on this issue the week of Dec 10, 2007 and none of the information the
field supplied that would improve retention was addressed in the FS Retention
Analysis or testimony.
Members of the FWFSA have been educating Congress as usual; and following the
hearing, the Appropriations Committee came back to the FS and asked for further
retention "plans", due June 30. We'll see what develops out of that.
9/11 was a Tuesday. So was the stock Market crash of 1929 (which also was called
Black Tuesday).
Be very safe!
Ab. |
| 4/28 |
Thanks, Yactac, that's what I was afraid of... On another note:
Please don't forget Michelle Reugebrink's
Baskin-Robins firefighter ice cream night. She's one of 31 firefighter
honorees nationwide and the only wildland firefighter. Wednesday evening (5-10
PM) is when she'll be rolling up her sleeves and serving 31 cent ice cream
scoops at the Roseville Baskin Robbins, 8690 Sierra College Blvd, Roseville,
California.
Families go to Roseville Wed evening. No telling who you'll run into. While
there, donate to the
WFF
bucket and eat ice cream. (And check the bathrooms for me to see if the
corners on the toilet paper are tucked in and it comes to that point, like in
the fanciest hotels. I'm told they will be.)
If you're too far away to make it, send a donation to the
WFF in Michelle's
name!
Congrats, Michelle! You do us proud. Nice grin yellowshirt!
Mellie |
| 4/28 |
Mellie,
LOL... well it would be LOL if it weren't so sad. I believe you spelled it out
quite well.
The typical avenue of the FS Mgt can be summed up in this statement: " If you
call a
white wall black often enough, the white wall truly becomes black" otherwise
known
as smoke and mirrors.......
--
yactak |
| 4/28 |
Dare I say the "errors" in the R5 Retention Analysis might not have been the
result of R5's tinkering but of the WO's tinkering... The WO had that
Analysis for quite a while... certainly long enough for shooting themself in the
foot.Fedwatcher 007 |
| 4/28 |
To Eastern FF:
If its true Jody is going to R9, may I be the first to open the door to let her
out
of R5 with a hearty "See ya, don't let the door hit ya on the way out..."? Gosh,
hope she takes her "award" with her.
Heck if she does go, the morale of the firefighters on the ANF will rise just as
fast as suppression spending...
Fedwatcher II |
| 4/28 |
~ * ~ * ~ BREAKING NEWS ~ * ~ * ~ BREAKING NEWS ~ * ~ * ~
BREAKING NEWS ~ * ~ * ~
FROM ELLREESE DANIELS' LAWYER
Hi All,
As some of you know, I believe we have finally reached a compromise with
the government in this case. In exchange for dismissing all 11 felony
counts, the government will agree to offer a plea to 2 misdemeanor counts
of making a false statement in an official writing. I will be recommending
to the court that Ellreese should receive no time, the government may
recommend a sentence of jail time. I strongly feel that this is a case
that does not merit a jail sentence, so I am comfortable with the plea to
the misdemeanors.
As you all know, this is a case which I have felt very passionately about.
I am more convinced than ever of Ellreese's innocence on ALL of the counts,
however, there remains a risk that if we proceed to trial, he could be
found guilty of at least one felony. There comes a time and place to put
some closure on this matter, and Ellreese is comfortable with this
resolution. I hope that the witnesses and families may also find some
peace now.
I anticipate that we will still have a contested sentencing hearing in late
summer.
We currently have a tentative change of plea set for tomorrow (April 29) at
11:00 a.m. in Spokane before Judge Van Sickle. The address of the
courthouse is: 920 W. Riverside Avenue, Spokane, WA. It is open to the
public, and I'm sure that if you can be present, Ellreese and I would
appreciate it greatly.
Ab, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could go on and post this
for us to let folks know.
Tina
MOST EXCELLENT NEWS. Thanks for your hard work and thanks also to those
who have helped and to those who were willing to testify on Ellreese's behalf.
Ab.
Hotlist thread:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3930 |
4/28
sticky |
Forest Service Firefighters, please provide the following Survey information:
- Vacancies by Forest/Ranger District/Fire Station by module type,
please provide location.
- How many engines have been reduced from 7 to 5 day coverage?
- What is the Crew makeup regarding experience?
example for each crew:
a) all trainees in new positions;
b) mix but with trainees in overhead positions;
c) seasoned firefighters in most positions.
- How many Crews, engines, prevention units, dozers, Chief Officers are
completely unstaffed?
Please let Ab (abercrombie@wildlandfire.com) or Casey
(cjudd@fwfsa.org ) know your forest or
district staffing levels by answering the 4
questions above. As always, your identity will remain confidential. This is a
way for the compiled information from "boots-on-the-ground" to get to those who
are truly working on retention issues.
Many "boots" make light work. Thanks, Ab. |
| 4/28 |
Ab,
Here's the Preliminary Report on the NV Firefighter who had what looked like
a heart
attack while doing the pack test.
NV-DOF WCT Cardiac Emergency 041708 Preliminary Report (628 K doc file)
NV Red
Hotlist thread:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=3927 |
| 4/28 |
2008 Calendar Price Slashed to $6.00 each! Limited supply available. OA. |
| 4/28 |
ms, I'm not sure I understand about retention efforts, what Congress wants and
what R5 is doing under what constraints... Let me get this clear in my head.
At the April 1, 2008 Senate Appropriations Hearing, when asked about FS
firefighter retention problems, Mark Rey said, --don't worry, all resources in
CA would be staffed by fire season and that there is no retention problem
according to the FS Retention Analysis.
Senator Diane Feinstein replied that she didn't believe that there isn't a
retention problem, and the Appropriations Committee requested a further detailed
plan for how R5 will improve retention by June 30. She added that Congress has
already made it possible to offer money incentives to aid retention by allowing
the region to tap suppression funding. Do I have this right?
So now there are meetings to further explore retention and provide another
plan for retaining firefighters. They're trying to do this by having 4 teams
that look at the following 4 areas:
o Mission - Kathy Hardy and Curt Palmer
o Pay - Kathleen Morse, Lorene Guffey, Mike Dietrich, and
Jerry McGowan
o Workplace Improvement - Scott Armentrout and Jeanne
Pincha-Tulley
o Facilities - Ed Cole, Ken Heffner, and Riva Duncan
Firefighters have said that pay is their biggest issue, but there are 3 other
areas that are also being considered.
Pay: The biggest boondoggle here is that the people in charge
-- Randy Moore (Regional Forester), Ed Hollenshead (R5 FAM Chief) and Jody
Noiron (ANF Forest Supervisor) -- have said any retention plan has to be "budget
neutral". That means effectively that no forest can offer a retention pay
incentive, even though Congress has said this would be one way they've approved
to help retain people?
I might not understand this. Can someone lay this out better?
Mellie |
| 4/28 |
I've heard a rumor that your Supervisor Jody N. is leaving the Angeles NF
and coming to Region 9 before the end of the year. Can anyone confirm this?
Eastern FF |
| 4/27 |
ME,
Hope this helps answer your question. If anyone has more updated information,
please correct.
In R-5 we are still using the open and continuous rosters. The
rosters/announcements are set up for everything from GS-6's to GS-13's. From
Dispatch positions to IHC positions to Chief positions. They're open and
continuous. The traditional and the traditional outreach announcements for fire
positions have stopped as we know them. What has also stopped is individual
announcements for fire positions. You won't see announcements for over 99% of
the R-5 fire positions. However if you go into usajobs, you will see the open
and continuous announcements. Individual job announcements are common for fire
jobs that do not have standardized PDs such as Prevention and Training Officers,
some Fire Planners.
With an open and continuous announcement, you may put in for ANY position at any
location you want to work in R-5, even if the position is currently filled with
"someone". If that "someone" moves on, then you have the potential to be
selected for that job as a back-fill during a fire hiring round. Example: If you
got offered and accepted a job at last week's hiring round, the Forest Hiring
Rep could look at the applicants for your old job and make an offer within
hours, even minutes after you just accepted your new job.
Actually R-5 has come up with a good system to fill and back fill fire jobs.
Problem is after 6 years of complete mismanagement, we have no skill depth
any more. With retirements and attrition we are promoting employees faster than
ever before (Red Flag) and as someone reminds us, this is the heart of the
retention issue. We have seen reduced interest from fire employees in other FS
regions and from Interior who don't want to come over to this mess. Not to
mention the high costs in CA.
In 2000/2001 when the build up began, the R-5 RO FAM made some good decisions.
One was to build-up to 100% and then they allowed for a So Cal Special Salary
Rates in 2001 and many were hopefully these progressive moves was the start of
something positive. Unfortunately it was not. Not everything was perfect by any
means in the first part of this decade, however many had hope and looked at the
build-up as a 10 year process to get a balance between available jobs and
interested applicants. Things just went downhill faster in 2004/05 and the trek
downhill gets faster every year until we eventually hit bottom. We squandered
the last 3 years with a complete lack of concern and communication from our FAM
leaders. Until we made so much noise they agreed to hold a week long retention
meeting in December 2007. Then we got the "sunset" speeches. Then came April 1,
2008, Black Tuesday when we learned that we actually make more money than CAL
FIRE, go figure, silly us.
The current RO FAM Leaders just do not get it. R-5 FAM Leadership needs a
complete overhaul. Allow me to repeat that; A complete OVERHAUL. They may
form all the retention groups they want. I have no confidence in the two people
leading all the groups, especially since one of them accepts a Line Officer FAM
award the week of April 1. Until someone sends us a group of current and former
fire professionals as an intervention panel to work on and fix the problems
working with the ground, then we have many more April 1, 2008 days ahead of us.
Are you listening WO? R-5 needs immediate intervention.
The only way we will get our issues addressed is to keep making noise (Dec 10th
proved that). Our noise must be professional with a high level of accuracy. It
must be LOUD and it must be SUSTAINED!
One last thing. How can you ask a person of Mike Detrich's strong character and
high integrity to form a pay group and develop pay recommendations and require
the group's recommendations to remain budget neutral. Here's your box, sit in
it, don't think about what's outside the box and oh and by the way, you have 60
days to get it done. Talk about a crummy deal. Any leader who gives a person
responsibility to go find solutions and only gives enough rope to hang himself
is a sign something is wrong with the leader. Got WO Intervention?
ms |
| 4/27 |
There's no recruitment/retention problem on the MNF... because positions are
being filled with people who don't have the quals to do the job that they're
hired
for. I guess this is one solution to the problem. It looks good on paper and
that's
all that matters. (Word has it that they want ALL positions filled, regardless
of
qualifications... a little bit of CYA going on here???)
I'm one of those that has left the FS for CalFire and I can tell you that it is
WORKING ENVIRONMENT not pay that finalized my decision to leave.
I'd take less pay if it meant I'd work with professionals at a professional
agency.
The MNF is poster child for all that is wrong with the FS and has tainted my
opinion of the entire agency.
Former FS Captain |
| 4/27 |
With all of the perceived R5 openings and UTF positions, how come none of these
jobs
are being flown? I haven't seen any individual postings on Avue (in honesty, I
didn't
expect to see them there), I haven't seen more than a couple 0462 jobs being
flown on
the R5 outreach website, and the same for the FS Outreach website.
If you have a job open within a few hours of the Bay area, fly it! I have my app
ready!
MEUTF= Unable to Fill |
| 4/27 |
To all:
MS and AB are certainly on point. The FWFSA has sent out letters to a number of
its members in key positions across the country soliciting such information. It
is anyone's guess how the Agency is going to "spin" its numbers so the best
thing firefighters can do is do what you've been doing for the past several
years... provide accurate, irrefutable data from the field.
One thing I've mentioned to a few folks recently is crew make-up. If an engine
crew is made up of all trainees in all positions that might not be an engine I'd
send out on something eating up 1000 acres an hour. So just because a crew might
be staffed, the make up is critical as well.
If you even think additional information might be important, please pass it
along to us at the FWFSA. All information we send to Congress is "cleaned" so
the origin is confidential and the only identifying information is either the
FWFSA or my name.
Data/information can be sent to us at
cjudd@fwfsa.org, or faxed to 208-775-4577. Keep in mind that our
efforts in gathering this information is not to maintain an adversarial
relationship with the Agency and try to portray them as less than forthright.
Your voice and the FWFSA's credibility on Capitol Hill is what has created the
increased interest in the issues on the part of many in Congress and maintaining
that voice and credibility will pay dividends in achieving all of our goals to
ensure our firefighters get the recognition, pay & benefits they deserve as well
as creating a stronger, more efficient fire program.
Thanks in advance.
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA |
| 4/26 |
It's important that everyone reports with a "high" level of accuracy on the
vacancies
and modules. No guesses, no maybes. Once those few that were hired last week
are identified, that would be the time to report up using increased accuracy of
this
survey. Lets have the same level of integrity with this as the abs had with the
survey
back in December on our issues, including the count of those preparing to leave.
ms |
| 4/26 |
With fire season fast approaching within R-5,
- Do we have a method to collect vacancies by Forest/Ranger
District/Fire Station by module type?
- Do we have a method to report how many engines have been reduced from
7 to 5 day coverage?
- Also, how many Crews, engines, prevention units, dozers, Chief
Officers are completely unstaffed?
I know R-5 has internal methods, however will they report it upward? Will
they also report upward that the fire hire round that concluded Thursday was a
complete failure? This fire hire round was hastily put together after Rey's
testimony, failed to fix the current large number of vacancies in R-5.
We need to put the vacancy data together and ensure that it's shared with those
who need to know the truth. Rey lied !
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY
|
| 4/26 |
Ab, This is going to sound a little strange, but about 10 years ago I was
given one of these
Warthog pins (photo
attached) after an especially tough fire assignment in Arizona.
The fella who gave it to me gave me a brief explanation about the criteria for
inclusion
into this "fraternity" of Warthogs. On the fire he was my Division Supervisor
but I recall
he was a district ranger from Region 6 and getting ready to retire.
I am trying to remember what the components of the " Make SH-- Happen" stand
for,
you'll have to read the pin to get this question.
I was just wondering if there are any other Warthogs out there? is this group
still around?
a little help would be much appreciated.
Sus Scrofa de Mort,
sting
Put it on the
Logos14 photo page. Ab. |
| 4/26 |
I put a couple of photos on the
Handcrews22 photo page. Rupert, send in some info on those and I'll put it
on the photo description page. Ab. |
| 4/26 |
What Tha--
You are right on when you talk about, no one knowing
what the duties are of for Duty Officers. Hell they
can't even decide on what to call it anymore, our
Forest now refers to them as "Duty Chiefs" with
different Status Levels depending on your quals. It's
getting to be real ridiculous. I would really like to
see the S.O. and R.O. supervisors get together and
implement rules on a regional basis instead of
implementing these ridiculous rules as a single
forest. Why should one forest have a different set of
rules than the one next to it, it amazes me.
Also you mentioned why people are not willing to
promote into ADFMOs, it's a simple answer. Why get
promoted into a job that is going to make less money
than your Captain job. I took a promotion and also
took a large cut in pay because, we can't afford to
let you go because we might get a fire on the
district, then what would we do. But the Fire Staff
have no problems getting out on fires keeping up there
quals because they are on "teams" and they are needed.
I really think that I should get paid more for keeping
the "What If" fires in check, I mean just think of all
the money I have saved the government on that
potential complex.
Oh Well only 10 more years till retirement. |
| 4/25 |
Dear New2Blu:
P&P would be a tool just like proper classification to recruit and retain
federal wildland firefighters. By implementing such policies, the Agency would
strengthen its depleted wildland firefighting forces and be able to field
resources pursuant to the National Fire Plan. For years, the Agency has ignored
such losses and has failed to utilize any of the many authorities it has at its
disposal to stem the tide of such losses.
With a reduced workforce and no incentive from Congress to be cost
effective...until recently that is, the Agency has simply "filled in the gaps"
with non-federal resources who, more often than not in the major wildfire prone
areas, cost substantially more than their federal counterparts even when taking
into consideration the "total cost to the government" of federal employees which
includes benefits, etc.
While P&P would be part of pay & benefits reforms, the Agency would also need to
reform how it manages its fire program. Most importantly would be to stop the
diversion by Agency line officers of hundreds of millions of fire preparedness &
fuels reduction dollars which they use to pay for non-fire projects.
With P&P strengthening the workforce and preparedness funds being used for their
intended purposes, which would mean more preparedness resources in the field,
the need to "fill in the gaps" with higher-priced non-federal resources would be
reduced thus reducing the suppression spending and saving the American taxpayer
serious sums of dollars.
I would imagine some non-federal firefighters who are on Type I teams and others
who make staggering sums each year courtesy of the Federal Government will
bristle at these ideas. But again, we are not now,n or have we ever suggested
the wholesale elimination of the use of contractors and cooperators. We just
feel that federal dollars ought to go to the feds first... Hope that answers
your question.
Casey |
| 4/25 |
Hey Ventura County Fire Guys. Who Makes your brush / type 3 engines? @
http://fire.countyofventura.org/about_us/our_apparatus/brush_engine.asp
The story I heard was your department looked at the CDF model 15s and
USFS model 62s and said "Nope. Neither one." and came up with your own
type 3. I'd still rather have a well maintained model 61 then a 62 or 15 myself.
I got volunpicked for a committee where equipment is going to be an issue.
Any specs or pictures of your brush engines I can get would be much
appreciated.
I always liked the way everything was laid out on them. The number system is
cool and, by gum, those are handsome trucks.
Thanks,
Scrape |
| 4/25 |
Work Environment & Retention:
The lack of leadership and direction in the Forest Service FIRE organization is
as large of a retention issue as inadequate pay and inadequate compensation for
work. (but both are closely related)
Here is an example...
Does anyone know the expectations of a Forest Service "Duty Officer" after their
8-hour work day?
I do not know of any direction or expectation that is spelled out anywhere. BCs
routinely accept the night duty call because it is the appropriate and
responsible thing to do. Leadership has not provided any direction on what is
expected of the Duty Officer. What durations of time or hours shall the Duty
Officer remain in a state of readiness or on standby? Has leadership identified
how to compensate these Duty Officers for their time when on standby?
I am tired of an ambiguous expectation of uncompensated responsibility. Is there
any written expectation of an after hours duty officer anywhere? Do I have to
take the night duty call at the expense of my personal time? Why would anyone
continue to influence their family life and family time when uncompensated?
On some Forests in R-5 there has still been no decision on whether or not Chief
Officers can utilize their agency vehicles to respond emergency incidents after
normal business hours (as if it is not in the government's best interest to put
fires out when they are small).
It may be time to allow District Rangers and Forest Supervisors to assume
responsibility for their responsibilities. Does that make sense? Unless
authority and ability are delegated, the responsibility should remain with the
Forest Supervisors. Once they get their red cards qualified, they will be ready
for action. Until then, they can answer calls from dispatch throughout the
night.
Does this situation affect overall firefighter retention? When the GS 5s,6s,7s,
and 8s don't want to promote to an ADFMO because of the increased and
uncompensated duties and responsibilities, I would think many people look
elsewhere for employers with career ladder opportunities that don't lead to
nowhere.
What Tha---- |
| 4/25 |
Casey,
Just got done reading your paper on P to P, thanks for asking not to just
concentrate on CAL-FIRE when it comes to this issue. I agree that all nonfederal
agencies in California should be looked at when it comes to this topic, CAL-FIRE
is not the only agency that gets P to P on an incident.
Have one question though, how will P to P "allow for the reduction in the
over-reliance of higher-priced nonfederal resources"?
New2Blu |
| 4/24 |
from Firescribe: University of Wisconsin - SP Fire Crew recruits trained in
basic forest firefighting
http://pointeronline.uwsp.edu/apr242008/outdoors/UWSPFireCrew.aspx |
| 4/24 |
Some things like 24/72 hour reports and Green sheets/Blue sheets are getting
posted on the Hotlist but not here. Ab. |
| 4/24 |
From Firescribe:
www.newwest.net/topic/article/merge_remake_the_forest_service/C41/L41/
Merge, Remake the Forest Service
By Bill Schneider, 4-24-08
Last month, the General Accountability Office (GA0) announced it was studying a
plan to take the Forest Service out of the Department of Agriculture and merge
it into the Department of the Interior. Predictably, this news was met with a
chorus of yawns because we’ve heard many grandiose plans for reorganizing
federal land-managing agencies. In every case, after significant wasted staff
time and much stress for employees, nothing happens.
But this one wasn’t a yawner for me because something like this really needs to
happen. This time, let’s get serious and seize this opportunity to remake the
Forest Service (FS), an agency lost in the today’s political landscape.
Interestingly, the GOA study sounds similar to what I recommended three years
ago when the FS celebrated its centennial. In that column, I suggested the FS
and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), an Interior Department agency with a
virtually identical mission, be eliminated and then remade as two completely
different agencies, one devoted to outdoor recreation and the other focused on
resource extraction and other commercial uses of public lands. This same outcome
could--and should--emerge as a recommendation in the GAO study.
<snip>
Let’s face reality and stop the downward spiral. Merge the FS into the
Interior Department and then immediately and completely reorganize both the FS
and BLM into three focused agencies, named something like:
Outdoor Recreation Service to manage outdoor recreation on all national
forests and BLM lands (we’ve never come up with a name for them) including the
process of protecting roadless lands and wild rivers and assisting state
agencies with wildlife management.
Resource Management Service to manage and promote mining, logging,
livestock grazing, oil and gas leasing, and other extractive uses of renewable
and nonrenewable resources on public lands.
Fire Service to take charge and consolidate the colossal task of
preventing and controlling wild fire on all federal lands, even plucking these
functions our of the NPS and FWS, a “budget cut” I’m sure both agencies would
welcome. Congress should fund this agency directly and remove these budgets from
other federal agencies so they can concentrate on managing public lands instead
fighting fires, real and political.
[More at the link...]
Fair Use Disclaimer |
| 4/24 |
Dear AB:
As a result of several postings lately about portal to portal, I thought I'd
craft a
briefing paper on the issue as it relates to federal wildland firefighters.
Because
of its length, it is attached as a file and perhaps those interested in reading
it
can simply click on it.
Thanks,
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
Portal to Portal Brief (35K small doc file) |
| 4/24 |
from the
Hotlist thread: Thanks for posting that yactak.
I met Ken Weaver in the local (Yakima) AM/PM two weeks after the Thirtymile
tragedy. I could see the pain and frustration he was feeling, and I was the
logical person to vent at since I was in a Forest Service uniform. Venting is
probably not the best word to use to describe the encounter, but it was a very
painful experience for me. For me, it was both a learning portal and the new
beginning of a personal journey towards firefighter safety. I had effectively
numbed my feelings following the losses of 1987 on the Klamath, the Wasatch Fire
in Utah, and the Dude Fire in Arizona. I subscribed to the checklist and rule
theory of keeping firefighters safer.
I never took offense to the things Ken Weaver said to me and never will. He was
(and still is) grieving over his loss, and so is the entire wildland fire
family. He was treated poorly throughout the entire ordeal, as were we. The
Forest Service can and must do better.
The next fire season, I was fortunate enough to meet the folks from the
Okanogan-Wenatchee Forest as they were forced to visit the San Bernardino
National Forest prior to being allowed to return to fire duty.
I remember vividly meeting the Forest Supervisor, the District Ranger, the FMO,
and the duty officer during their visit.... and especially the Louisiana Fire
(CA-BDF) towards the end of their visit.... when our personal experiences all
came into alignment on a fire progressing rapidly into a project fire. Those
folks knew their stuff!!!
I also felt an honor to meet them and hear their stories first hand... and
without the agency spin (or deafening silence).
Since the Thirtymile Fire, and my experiences with both the families and the
managers, "I" don't look at things the same way..... "I" look to fix the
underlying latent factors so neither the families nor the managers (fire and
line) have to experience that pain again.
"We", as the field going employees of the Forest Service can, and must do better
for our families, friends, and co-workers.
Gizmo |
| 4/24 |
RE: Thirty Mile Fire on the hotlist
During these trying times, I do believe it is imperative that one has the full
perspective...
so to that end I have attached the writings of Ken Weaver, father of Devin
Weaver...
one of the fatalities on the Thirty Mile Incident.
--
yactak
Why were
they there? (323 K pdf file) |
| 4/24 |
Could somebody please fact check this?
My cursory notes and observations show that nearly the same number of folks died
or were injured while either taking, or preparing for the WCT (Work Capacity
Test).... as were killed or injured in burnovers since the WCT was
institutionalized as a best practice to evaluate fitness for fireline duty.
Why no concerns about the latent problems in the WCT program that was designed
by an exercise physiologist rather than a cardiologist??
I'd bet that the NDF employee (who just "had a physical") didn't have a complete
12-lead EKG, a complete stress test "pre-battery" of blood tests (including
cardiac enzymes), nor a complete discussion of risks with his/her physician.
Best bet, prior to taking a WCT, is to be fully evaluated YEARLY by a cardiac
stress test rather than a crap shoot called the WCT (pack test).
Health hazards of smoke also.... no latent problems (tongue in cheek)...... Non
Forest Service research proves otherwise in both cases.
Concerned |
| 4/24 |
Re: Fox in charge on the hen house?
"AB, this document came through lotus notes. Please post.
I would think those that have concerns or suggestions could
propose them to the team leaders. -noname fire"
The fire folks on the list have been sincere and are respected for the most
part in the discussion process.... Maybe the line officer authority should be
delegated to the ranger districts (ie- District Rangers) rather than the Forest
Supervisors?
Team leadership is the issue. The DRs are more connected with issues in the
field and can speak towards the nitty gritty facts that the communities are
most concerned with.
Some of those names being identified as "leaders" are big red flags..... from
fire and line.
/s/ JMHO |
| 4/23 |
Hey Ab,
On Thursday the 17th of this month a crewboss from NDF (Nevada Dept of
Forestry) had a heart attack while taking the pack test. He was on the last lap
for the test. He is 38 and just passed a complete physical. He just dropped with
no warning and was attended to by the EMT on location and 2 fellow crewbosses.
He was transported to the local hospital then taken to a trauma center in Reno,
Nevada. He is stable at this time and slowly doing better.
I hate the pack test, but its a evil we all have to do. Look out for your
brother and sister fire fighters. You never know when bad things are going to
happen. Keep yourselves healthy. Physical fitness is the key to so many things
we do in this line of work. The crewboss who went down hit the treadmill every
day. So who knows. It will be a while before he can even return to work for
light duty. I will post more as time goes on to report how he is doing.
GD |
| 4/23 |
Readers, here's a fine 4 page newsletter, chock full of good info including
info on APA (Accident Prevention Analysis). Thanks for sending that in,
contributor. Nice job Bequi and other contributors to the newsletter. Ab.
R3 SW Fire Ops Risk Management Newsletter (214K pdf file) |
| 4/23 |
Hi Abs,
I wanted to recognize Michelle Reugebrink, from the Tahoe National Forest, for
being selected as one of 31 firefighters (and the only wildland firefighter) to
be honored by Baskin Robbins and the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation.
Congratulations to Michelle!
Michelle will be at the Roseville Baskin Robbins on April 30 – “31-Cent Scoop
Night” serving up ice cream. From what we understand, she will be donating sale
proceeds from that night (and possible donation proceeds) to the Wildland
Firefighter Foundation. Funds raised across the United States that night go to
the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation, but Michelle wants Roseville
proceeds given that night to go to our Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
Great job Michelle! Being chosen out of tens of thousands of firefighters is a
wonderful honor!
Readers, If you live in the area, get out there and support Michelle!
Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter
Foundation
Great news! Ab. |
| 4/23 |
From Firescribe:
www.interfax-news.com/3/387381/news.aspx
Russian wildfires reach Mongolia
MOSCOW. April 23 (Interfax) - The number of wildfires in Russia has
increased over the past 24 hours, the fire area has doubled and spread
to a part of Mongolia, the Emergencies Ministry said.
"Over the past 24 hours the number of wildfires has increased by 74
and the fire area has doubled," the ministry said on Wednesday.
The last 24 hours saw 682 new wildfires erupting in the Far East,
Siberian and Volga Urals districts. A total of 922 wildfires were
registered, 608 of them were extinguished, and 314 still continue on a
total area of 35,932.1 hectares (88,790 acres). [more at the link]
Fair Use Disclaimer |
| 4/23 |
Address for cards to Mitch, the burned ND firefighter. Please keep him in
your thoughts and prayers. Ab. Regions Burn Center, Room 5111
640 Jackson St.
St. Paul, MN 55101-2595
Hotlist thread |
| 4/23 |
Re: Bailiff Fire (1967), Mack II Fire (1971), and the Esperanza Fire (2006)
Does anyone know the purpose behind the site visits to the above locations that
the folks from Utah (Koyle Fatality) visited/discussed today?
Were they firefighters?..... families?..... line officers?... researchers?...
scientists?...press?...interested others?... etc? Was it mandatory that they
attend?
Was it similar to the "forced re-education" placed upon the fire managers and
line officers from the WA-OWF following the Thirtymile Fire before they could
return to duty? Or was it a sincere site visit for learning?
I was supposed to present my research about the Bailiff Fire and the death of
BIA firefighter Frank Rios from the Tohono O'Odham tribe from AZ in 1967 to the
group today. I chose not to participate today (day off) out of the utmost
respect for the fallen and their families, and the friends and co-workers from
all three fires, when the decision makers who ultimately were responsible refuse
to listen to the latent facts and until they actually communicate their intent
and purpose.
My research was based upon first hand accounts, press reports, fire history,
fuels strata, and what little data was officially available on the Bailiff Fire
(but fully referenced in the Mack II report).
Based upon the recent actions of the RO and WO censuring and ignoring the field
(and in some cases outright lying about the facts), I chose to not participate
in whatever this field trip was about, and announced to us on such a short
notice.
Hopefully, in the future, this whole mess will be described in a future Staff
Ride by the new Federal Wildland Fire Service.
Free Ellreese!!!!
Gizmo |
| 4/22 |
Ellreese Daniels' trial dates The court gave us his order today with the trial
date schedules. I thought
most of you would like to know what that schedule is, so I've attached his
order.
Tina
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/law/OrderTrialSchedule[4-22-08].pdf (39
K pdf file small)
Text:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
TRIAL SCHEDULE
THIS MATTER is scheduled for trial beginning May 5, 2008 and
ending July 2, 2008. Counsel shall meet with the Court in chambers at
8:30 a.m. on the first day of trial. Jury Selection will begin at
10:00 a.m. Trial will be held each day from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
and from 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. excluding the following days: May 9,
May 16, May 22, May 23, May 26, June 5, June 6, June 20, and June 23 -
27.
IT IS SO ORDERED. The District Court Executive is hereby
directed to enter this order and furnish copies to counsel.
DATED this 22nd day of April, 2008.
s/ Fred Van Sickle
United States District Judge
Thanks Tina. Free Ellreese. Ab. |
| 4/22 |
Regarding the Deputy Director of Fire and Aviation Management comments:
"The range of WFSU expenditures used in the 10 year average range from a low of
$306 million in 1998, to over $ 1.5 billion in 2006. In other words any
WFSU expenditures in excess of $ 306 million will result in an increase in the
10 year suppression average and require an offset in agency funds from other
program areas."
So. the FY 2008 WFSU (Wildland Fire Suppression) budget for the Forest Service
is $911,032,000 (aka $911 million).
I fully understand that if there are any expenditures over $306 million, that it
will increase the ten-year suppression cost average. (simple math called
averaging). We all know that the WFSU expenditures will range from $800 million
to $1.5 billion (situational awareness).
So, I have to ask this. Why would the Forest Service have to "require an
offset in agency funds from other program areas" if the WFSU program is
properly funded @ $911 million?
I'd like to know what they plan on doing with the remaining WFSU funds ($605
million worth), and why "the fire program" is being set up to be the "bad guy"
again in a failed budgeting process?
I know the answer already. The only things keeping the Forest Service afloat
right now are WFSU (Suppression), WFPR (Wildfire Preparedness), and WFHF
(Wildfire Hazardous Fuels) funding.
No more smoke and mirrors. No more fire program managers acting as, or treating
others as mushrooms.
Lobotomy |
| 4/22 |
AB, this document came through lotus notes. Please post. I would think those
that have concerns or suggestions could propose them to the team leaders.
-noname fire~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Region 5 Retention Effort
Intent
Fire management has been at the forefront of the issues of employee retention
and morale. Recognizing that these issues affect all employees and locations
within Region 5, the Regional Forester has established a priority commitment to
develop strategies to tackle four key elements contributing to this problem:
mission, pay, workplace improvement, and facilities. He has charged Forest
Supervisors, in partnership with the FAM Board of Directors, to provide the
leadership necessary to move the Region toward resolution.
Four-teams, each to be lead by one or more Forest Supervisors and including
one or more Forest Fire Chiefs, have been established to accomplish this task.
Teams
- Coordinators – Jody Noiron and Ed Hollenshead
o Mission - Kathy Hardy and Curt Palmer
o Pay - Kathleen Morse, Lorene Guffey, Mike Dietrich, and
Jerry McGowan
o Workplace Improvement - Scott Armentrout and Jeanne
Pincha-Tulley
o Facilities - Ed Cole, Ken Heffner, and Riva Duncan
Timelines and Performance
- Recommendations will be completed and submitted to coordinators by June
30
- Interim status reports will be provided to coordinators on April 30 and
May 31
Recommendation Development Principles
- Are within the authority of the Regional Forester to implement
- Provide analysis of consequences (including short- and long-term costs
and benefits), opportunity costs (tangible and intangible), and workforce
impacts
- Propose logical tradeoffs in view of budget-neutral (within existing
Regional budget) requirement
Team Responsibilities
- Independently identify and procure support personnel and information as
necessary to accomplish the task
- Include member(s) of the workforce, union, labor relations, and civil
rights as necessary to accomplish the task
- Establish vetting requirements and ensure completion to meet the
deadline of June 30
|
| 4/22 | 401 Issue again: Message originally from Jeanne
P-T, posted on 4/18 and still circulating on the FS Web, plucked from Lotus
Notes. Hope this helps. Motley Crew FYI. It's a start and we are looking for
it to be in writing...but at least there appears to be movement in a good
direction!
Just so folks know what James Barnett's email means is relative English:
Last Friday the second in command at OPM verbally
committed to extending the June 1, 2009 deadline for those erroneously placed in
0401s after February 15, 2005 (30 for the FS and about 40 for Interior). The new
deadline will be October 1, 2010.
This applies to anyone who was placed in a GS-401 position after February 15,
2005. 'Erroneously placed' refers to GS-401 folks who relied on NWCG courses
and/or courses not documented on a college transcript to qualify for the GS-401.
NWCG voted yesterday to extend the deadline for all
others seeking 0401 in IFPM until that same deadline... October 1, 2010.
This refers to since IFPM was been moved under NWCG, there have been several
proposals made to change IFPM implementation, including the deadline to extend
as the USFS cannot determine what constitutes the correct kind/type of positive
education credits will be used to qualify folks for the GS-401.
...no information regarding any non-0401 positions
and can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that any position not
requiring 0401 will remain under the October 1, 2009 deadline.
There are several positions in IFPM that do not require a GS-401 education.
Incumbents in these positions still have a October 1, 2009 compliance
'deadline'. It also means that on October 1, 2009, having the NWCG
qualifications, specialized experience and specialized training (if required for
a particular position) will become a condition of hire (ie., to be on the
certificate, you have to have it all completed).
There has been incredible effort to even get to this glimmer of hope. It's nice
that the 'ice may be breaking up' a bit!
Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Forest Fire Chief, Tahoe NF
IC, CIIMT3
(also R-5's IFPM and 401 guru) |
| 4/22 | Quick Thoughts for all y'all,
Howdy! Well, I had to give 3 cheers to "4G's" for the line "I would really like
to see some creative posts on how to help each other more, and less of the 'us
against them' banter."
I gotta tell you, many many years ago I used to read this board for a place to
connect to other wildland firefighters and talk about a variety of the issues
that were affecting folks. Not that it's bad now, it's just that I don't read it
for fun and to relax anymore. It's more likely to drive me to drink, and I don't
do much of that anymore (so I don't read the board much either, for my own
sanity!). I would look forward to a time when it is collaboration on a number of
issues and improving the field overall, professionally, as well as taking care
of our own profession. I just see a whole lot of hot button issues going on in
the field as well, but I guess I don't see those discussed here as much anymore.
Perhaps I am just missing the forum where these discussions have gone.
A couple of random perspective thoughts:
1) The 10-year average numbers everybody always goes throwing around seem to me
like kind of a random bit of stuff to be making such large comparisons and
decisions on. I am not just making this up, but I am pretty sure that a couple
of very reputable fire climatologists have suggested we ought to follow more
like a 30-year average when we are looking at numbers, because climatology tends
to run in 30 year cycles.
Also, the 10-year average seems more just based on a nice set of handy
statistics, although it is arguably not even statistically valid. I am not a
mathematician, so I'll leave that to them to argue. It's just that we seem to
throw it around a lot and my question is: why. I suspect it's just handy.
Unfortunately, the data collection quality and content has changed so much over
the last 30-year period in wildland fire that it's probably not scientifically
valid either, but I think we should question why the 10-year average is supposed
to tell us something scientifically useful. I am not convinced it does.
2) I hate to bring some east coast big city perspective in to this whole
discussion, but I don't reckon most voters and taxpayers in this country are
even remotely aware of the issues that come up on this board. I am not sure
they'd be outraged. The number of things that go on in our government that the
public is not outraged about but which scare the hell out of me is quite high,
but I study and work in the government, so I suspect that I know more about all
that than the average person. Also, my conscientious-ness level is higher than
normal, because I've bothered to look. Still, the stuff that makes it on the
radar screen for the public's outrage level seems to be pretty thin.
All that being said, it is a scientifically proven fact that the public's agenda
follows the media's agenda, or what makes the news. Back when they studied
"traditional media", it was connected by a period of a few months. In today's
instant information age, I'm sure the dynamics and timelines have changed, but I
think it's still safe to say... if you want to get the public fired up, you've
got to get the media fired up, and I'm not sure what that would take. When I
mention I've been involved with wildland fire, most people also ask me if I
jumped out of planes. How did the jumpers get all the fame and attention? And
how does the public not know anything else about this field?
Good luck, keep the faith, and be safe,
-with y'all in spirit
(but I might be in a better mood...) |
| 4/22 | Ab,
I haven't seen any posts on this injured North Dakota firefighter so I thought I
would pass this link along.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24242517/.I also forwarded a copy to the Wildland
Firefighter Foundation. We were told
a couple of weeks ago at the Team Meetings that this was going to be a
"normal" fire season. I don't even know what that means anymore, but it seems
we've already had too many injuries and fatalities out there.
Be careful out there!
NVAC
Readers, please do alert us and the WFF of accidents, mishaps, injuries
and deaths. We alert the WFF as well with any helpful contact info we can
acquire. We also maintain a private database on the hotlist that is revealed to
members every so often. We do post the "incident within an incident" info to the
LargeFires /Incidents hotlist subforum, as soon as possible -- after allowing
time for family notifications. We also work at timely release of info
that may not have hit the mainstream media. You can always Email Ab or text
message Ab with a private message at our top header button. We don't want
firefighters' families to find out about a loved one here. Firefighters know
about following the golden rule: Do unto other firefighter families as you would
have done to yours. That holds true of donations to the WFF as well, regardless
of agency, vollie, or private sector firefighter. Ab. |
| 4/22 | Nerd said:
"Historically, emergency response has paid poorly compared to fields demanding
comparable training
and dedication because of the glamour factor; we offer adrenaline, camaraderie,
and great photo ops
as benefits. When somebody else comes along offering the same benefits and job
duties for more pay,
yeah, you’re going to have a retention problem."
I think that, at least as far as the Forest Service is concerned, firefighters
(Forestry Aids and
Tech's.) were historically paid low wages because we were seen as a labor force
and not as an
emergency response resource by everyone including OURSELVES. I remember the
sayings such as "I am
not very smart but I can lift heavy objects" and "you get paid to dig not think"
as being very
common in the 70's and 80's which didn't do a whole lot to improve our standing
as a professional
firefighting force.
It was not until 1994 (South Canyon) that anyone outside of "Fire" and our
families even knew what
a Hotshot Crew was or that they even existed. Up until then pretty much anytime
you mentioned that
you worked as a Wildland Firefighter the usual response was "So do you jump out
of airplanes?" I
still get that same response but only about 1/2 the time so maybe that shows
some higher level of
awareness or maybe it's due to my graying hair and hobbling gait.
Historically we also got paid a lower wage because we had the Civil Service
Retirement System (CSRS)
under which you did not pay Social Security tax, so you got to keep several
thousand dollars a year
of your pay (maybe enough for your kids education or a mortgage payment?). This
benefit want away
in the mid 80's with the advent of the Federal Employee Retirement System
(FERS). Another reason
Civil Servants got lower pay was the fact that we had much more government
housing available, some
O.K. health benefits, a guaranteed pension and pretty much bomb proof job
security. Ever try to
fire a Federal employee? I have and it is near impossible.
Many of these reasons for lower pay have evaporated and we need to concentrate
on helping the next
generation of Wildland Firefighters have a higher view of themselves and their
profession and to
increase the public's awareness of the value of the service they provide to the
nation.
Moaning and complaining on "TheySaid" to each other about work conditions and
pay has become a way
of life on these pages and is frankly boring. We all know what the issues are
and we have ways to
address them (FWFSA being one).
I would really like to see some creative posts on how to help each other more,
and less of the "us
against them" banter.
As far as Glamour, Adrenaline, Photo Ops and Camaraderie go: All the glamour
went out of this job
after the first five minutes. The adrenaline, photos and friendships are what
help us forget all
the hard times, pain and sacrifice and to remember the good times.
4G's |
| 4/22 | Ab,
Attached is a small pdf of the next month's draft changes to the 310-1.
Here's the note included in the e-mail I received:
Folks,
I recently received this sneak preview of the Revision Summary of the draft
310-1 to be released in May simultaneously with the new PTBs. It includes
the highlights of the major changes planned. I've highlighted a few things
that were of interest to me -- significant improvements in my estimation. I
understand that NWCG is finalizing and not encouraging input at this point.
As a reminder - this is the 310-1 and as such is the NWCG parent document.
Additional requirements can be added by each agency.
<snip>
Safety Officer types - the red highlighted section addresses some of our
recent conversation in the Fireline Safety Officer class
Allowing trainees to have taskbooks initiated while they're still
working on
required training classes will improve the qualification process.
vfd cap'n
May2008DraftChangesPMS310-1.pdf (small 20K pdf file)
PTBs= Position Task Books |
| 4/22 | The value of a full time paid fire department:
(last post for me in regards to paid v volunteer)
Fire Engine A is full time paid fire engine company. Fire Engine B is a
volunteer fire engine company. Both engines have the same number of people with
the exact same skill sets. Both Fire Engine A and Fire Engine B are equally
trained to fight wildland fire, structure fire, and medical aides.
At Fire Station A/B, Fire Engine A sits right next to Fire Engine B.
The bell goes off for an unknown emergency response. Fire Engine A's company is
sitting in the fire station next to the apparatus bay and run out and load up
with in 1 minute, they are pulling out en route to the unknown emergency
response with in two minutes.
The pagers go off for the same unknown emergency response. Fire Engine B's
Captain who is a plumber is down the street from the station on a job and leaves
immediately for the station, Fire Engine B's Engineer who is a diesel mechanic
is underneath the excavator of Fire Engine B's Firefighter who is a heavy
equipment operator (they work together) and as soon as Fire Engine B's Engineer
gets out of his oily overalls, they carpool to the station. Fire Engine B's
other firefighter who is a veterinarian is in the middle of eye surgery on a dog
and decides he'll try and go straight to the unknown emergency after he is done
with the dog to see if he can still get in on the action. The last Firefighter
off of Engine B has been celebrating his birthday and has had too much to drink
so he decides he is in no condition to respond. Elapsed time for Fire Engine B's
wheels to turn is ?????????.
Fire Engine A arrives on scene and initiates a hose lay on a wild land fire, a
search & rescue operation and interior attack on a structure fire, started CPR &
established an airway and IV with first round of drugs on board of full arrest;
or has started working whatever that 'unknown emergency response' turned out to
be. Fire Engine C, also a full time paid and staffed fire engine, arrives on
scene 2 minutes after Fire Engine A.
Fire Engine B arrives on scene with Fire Engine A & C ?? minutes later and kicks
butt because as mentioned earlier, both engines have the exact same skill sets
in any emergency.
Now speaking strictly as a member of a community and a taxpayer, with in this
very simplified example, I want the coverage and response time of a full time
paid fire department. Does that mean I think that the volunteers can't handle
the job? NO IT DOESN'T! Does it mean that I think that
full time paid fire department is going to have better response times, better
coverage, better equipment, and more hours training? YES IT DOES!
SO, if we are losing firefighters from any agency in my community due to them
not making a LIVABLE WAGE, I want them to be paid more
until they are making a LIVABLE WAGE. I want them to know
that I as a taxpayer want to take care of them financially so that they take
care of my family and community.
If city ff's, county ff's, state ff's, federal ff's are not making
LIVABLE WAGE, I'd say pay them more. ANY FF
anywhere across this nation who is not making a LIVABLE WAGE
should be paid more until they do make a LIVABLE WAGE.
I think volunteers should get paid. If it isn't financially feasible for a town
or if that town has collectively agreed not to have people sitting around the
fire station getting paid full time, then at least pay them per call. If you as
a volunteer could give a rat's <snip> about getting paid then good for
you. There is a need for full time staffed fire departments all over the nation,
and if you expect to be able to meet these needs, YOU MUST PAY
THESE PEOPLE A LIVABLE WAGE.
I honestly don't care about if a volunteer is better then a full time ff or vice
versa, I care that the US Forest Service does not pay their firefighters a
LIVABLE WAGE.
Does anyone think that we, as a nation, could amass enough people to volunteer
and respond in a timely manner to all of the wild fires that burn across this
nation every fire season? There is a reason why we as a nation started to employ
wildland firefighters full time instead of driving to the local bars creating
'militias' to fight these fires?
DIB |
| 4/22 | Strider, This takes us through July:
www.nifc.gov/nicc/predictive/outlooks/outlooks.htm
I had noticed that we are exceeding the averages for acres burned so far this
year.
You're right, the deaths, injuries, and near-misses are spooky for this early in
the
season or, for that matter, at any time of the fire season. Heads up everyone!
Still out there as an AD ... |
| 4/22 | DIB,
Very Nice Post. Stand together, stand strong !!! Keep hammering
and keep the chatter high.
* Remember the Rey/Brownie comparisons.
* If we let up now, we won't see real change.
* Stay positive, work the issue and staff out a solution. Every idea is
important.
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY |
| 4/22 | Ab, from our lotus notes from Marc Rounsaville.
-Noname Fire
Fire activity continues to increase, most geographic regions have had fires,
several have deployed Incident Management Teams, and unfortunately there have
been fatalities. Predictive services shows this trend to continue and spread
across the Nation as spring transitions to summer. Fuels conditions in many
areas are such that significant fires with strong resistance to control can be
expected without extreme weather. We need to remain vigilant with a high degree
of situational awareness. Don't be fooled by the date on the calendar, pay
attention to the indices and to observed fire activity. Don't be distracted by
the issues we are facing on many fronts and lose your situational awareness.
Against that back drop we must also remember to use our resources wisely, the
first of the WFSU (P-Code) expenditure forecast is out and it is not a pretty
forecast. This is very preliminary information but it should remind us of our
fiscal responsibility. The range of WFSU expenditures used in the 10 year
average range from a low of $ 306 million in 1998, to over $ 1.5 billion in
2006. In other words any WFSU expenditures in excess of $ 306 million will
result in an increase in the 10 year suppression average and require an offset
in agency funds from other program areas. Therefore it is imperative:
-- to conserve resources for an entire season,
-- to manage resources with a critical eye regardless of the PL
-- to aggressively pursue initial attack in order to prevent large fires
-- to make mindful decisions regarding resource allocation and reallocation
-- to ensure the right resource at the right time for the right reason is used
-- to preposition effectively
Actions the Washington Office is pursuing include a regional limit or
authorization on severity and a mock allocation of suppression funds. These
management controls are viewed very favorably by OMB. Operational actions
include the addition of a helicopter coordinator position at Boise,
centralization of some aviation contracts and national consolidation of some
aviation command and control functions.
Agility, focus, innovation and discipline are behaviors we value and continue
to promote. The NIMO teams have demonstrated these behaviors and should not be
overlooked.
The NIMO teams can be used in a short or long team configuration. They can
coach, mentor and advise local resources in Type 3 organizations or Type 2 teams
to prevent a transition as complexity increases; or they can manage a fire and
work with local line officers to determine the best course of action to reduce
costs and support land management objectives. They are a flexible, agile and a
cost efficient resource.
We encourage you to explore some of the alternative fire management tools
available. We are happy to answer any questions or concerns, or take any input
or suggestions that you might have regarding these actions. Let’s continue to
work together towards a solution and make this a safe and successful fire
season.
Remember no structure, or resource is a valuable as our fire fighters and the
public.
Thanks
Marc G. Rounsaville
Deputy Director, Fire and Aviation Management |
| 4/21 | Has the Forest Service thought about taking the
money that Congress
says is for fire and not doing any non-fire projects with it like HR (-$300
M in 06), education, etc (-$400M in '07). Spending the money for fire,
preparedness and suppression and fuels.
And when the $$'s gone telling Congress it's gone and stopping work,
like when the NPS closes down monuments when the $$ runs out? until
more money is allocated.
Fire should be budgeted in a transparent way for fire.
Resources should be budgeted in a transparent and fair way for our
forests.
There needs to be a way to separate fire $$ from the rest of the FS
before the FS goes under. Quit "borrowing" from other areas if the $$
runs out. Quit spending fire $$ for other things so you have to borrow
from other areas later. What's so hard about that?
I may be young, but I know how to keep my income and expenditures
straight.
tree girl, love the owls too
One almost ran into my head the other night after I called it. What a rush! |
| 4/21 | From the hotlist: Severity of fires this season?
It seems we are already having fires in a number of regions and several that
have
required Incident Management Teams.
We have had firefighter deaths from dozer operator to SEAT pilot and burnovers
that have resulted in serious injury with life flight.
Are there any predictions by reliable groups or individuals regarding fuels,
fire
severity predictions.
Wondering what the '08 season might bring, more of the same and worse to come?
Be safe!
Strider |
| 4/21 |
"My department has a plumber, a diesel mechanic, a scrap metal dealer, a
geologist,
a GIS expert, a couple of cops, a veterinarian, several heavy equipment
operators,
and an electrician."
Nerd, that describes a lot of guys on my fulltime department. Remember most
firefighters,
wildland/structural, career/volunteer are "Jacks of all trades, masters of none"
Former Green Soldier. |
| 4/21 | I’ve been reading the volunteer vs. paid
discussion initiated by DIB with great interest. As I understand the original
post, DIB was making the point that the transition of these highly experienced
folks into other agencies and types of response at least keeps their expertise
protecting lives and property. It’s a valid point. However, if the emergency
response tooth fairy suddenly placed a 15 year FMO and a 20 year big city
paramedic under my small rural community’s metaphorical pillow to run every one
of our fire or ambulance calls, it wouldn’t necessarily make life all glorious.
Professionals have the luxury of specializing. In big cities and big
organizations you can have dispatch triage of calls, paramedic units running ALS
calls all the time, dedicated HAZMAT and heavy rescue units. You can do wildland
only, structure only, interface only. You can call in the specialists if you’re
out of your depth. What vollies bring to the table is that we’re generalists,
and we do have outside jobs; these jobs add depth to our skill sets and help us
attack problems from unconventional directions. My department has a plumber, a
diesel mechanic, a scrap metal dealer, a geologist, a GIS expert, a couple of
cops, a veterinarian, several heavy equipment operators, and an electrician.
Maybe we don’t spend all our time studying fire, but the things we do spend our
time studying sure help out on the line.
I’m not sure I’d trade my GIS guy for most of the FMOs I’ve worked with, because
the skills of the GIS guy get used more often than I think the skills of the FMO
would in our all-risk world. I wouldn’t trade my diesel mechanic for nobody; if
one of my trucks breaks down it’s a ninety-mile tow, and there is no truck to
cover the same exposures.
I’ll make another comment, from the EMS side; out here with our more than an
hour transport time, I’d rather have a volunteer Intermediate with ten years of
100-call-per-year rural experience than a city paramedic with twenty years of
2000-call-per-year experience, and here’s why: my intermediate has all her
experience spending an hour at a time or more with a patient. The paramedic may
have spent less than ten minutes with 90% of his patients. 80% or more of my
call volume is going to be BLS, and the faith my community puts in the ambulance
service is based more on the rapport the provider establishes with the patient
that providing the most up-to-date ALS care. With 100 calls per year, the odds
of a breakthrough ALS technique being critical to patient survival are slim. But
with an hour to the hospital, the assessment skills and habits of observation my
hypothetical Intermediate has developed will definitely save lives. Transferring
that analogy to fire, I don’t necessarily want a DIVS with all wildland
experience showing up to run my structure fire. I’m not saying he hasn’t got
incredible skills, they’re just not the optimum skills for the job. It’s like
pounding nails with a monkey wrench; it might kinda work, but the wrench has
better uses and there’s a better tool for pounding nails.
The Fed Fire agencies have hit a critical point, a mutate-or-die kind of point.
Salaries in all fields have failed to match cost-of-living increases, and the
Fed wages have lagged the national average. Historically, emergency response has
paid poorly compared to fields demanding comparable training and dedication
because of the glamour factor; we offer adrenaline, camaraderie, and great photo
ops as benefits. When somebody else comes along offering the same benefits and
job duties for more pay, yeah, you’re going to have a retention problem. So the
PTB (powers that be) can either re-think their mission (ceding fire response to
other organizations) or compete for the same candidate pool, which is going to
mean more money, better benefits, more flexibility, etc. The Forest Service has
a different mission than CALFIRE. If all the key personnel move from one to the
either, somebody’s mission isn’t going to get accomplished, even if all the
skills, in aggregate, are still there. And a good portion of the people who
moved are going to need to train up to fit their new mission, lest ye pound
nails with a monkey wrench. So if the personnel move, the mission needs to get
reconsidered, because a mission needs to be achievable.
Frozen North, your story broke my heart. It’s a terrible example of how paper
quals win out over real-world experience. And it’s a terrible example of
big-organization, one-size-fits-all policy that loses touch with what’s actually
going on on the ground. A question to the community: who is the highest-ranking
individual in the Forest Service who has actually dug fireline?
Nerd on the Fireline
(who is an –ologist, a vollie, an EMT, and doesn’t work for the Feds because of
crap like that) |
| 4/21 | Burnover on Saturday in Virginia - VA DOF dozer
operator injured and several others with less major burns...
www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/buckingham/article/injured_firefighter_expected_to_survive/20634/
from Hickman |
| 4/21 | I know from reading the posts that there are many
people facing 401
problems but I’m wondering specifically how many folks are out there that
are, or soon will be, ‘frozen’ by OPM in their current 401 position? I’m a
‘Parkie’ (and don’t know how many DOI’ers are with me) but, from what I
understand, there are 9 Forest Service employees in my 'frozen' boat.
This is what my boat looks like:
I was deemed qualified for my 401 series job in 2000 and again in 2005. As
you know, however, OPM moved their education target and, within the next
couple of weeks, I will be getting a letter saying that I am 3 credits
short of meeting the qualifications for my current position.
I can keep working in my job but I have 18 months to get those 3 credits
before I am no longer qualified. Not a big deal really. I like education
and would truly enjoy getting a few more science credits but, here’s the
rub; according to OPM “[frozen employees] are not eligible for promotion or
movement of any kind, including career-ladder promotions.”
I’ve been loyal to my current job for the past 8 years but I’m ready for a
new challenge and there are three 401-series jobs that will be flown in the
next couple of months. One job, in particular, is my ‘dream job’ and a
position that I would anticipate retiring in. I can apply for the jobs but
my applications will be rejected because of my 3 science credit shortage.
There is no 'grandfather period' during which one could take a new position
or promotion contingent on obtaining the credits during the 18 month
time-frame.
Ironically, I recently attended a couple of fire courses that were offered
for college science credit. I did not purchase the credits because, at the
time, I was told that I was 401 qualified. Those courses do not count now,
not because I didn’t get an education from them, but because I didn’t
unnecessarily spend tax payers dollars to ‘purchase my experience’. I
cannot believe that my employer is actually telling me that my 17 years of
classroom and on the job training in fire management (FUM2, RXB2, LTAN,
FOBS, etc.) is less important to them than the three science credits that I
didn’t take almost 20 years ago!
If I could get three credits (even in Oceanography!) prior to the
application period I would qualify for these fire jobs but, sadly, I cannot
find an upper level science course that I can complete in the next month.
If anyone out there has found some upper level science courses that can be
taken in the next four to six weeks I would sure love to hear about them.
I simply want a chance to compete for these jobs. As it stands, I am
completely demoralized and, if I can’t ‘dissect enough frogs’ to even put
in for these jobs, then I've committed to making a mid-life career change
and getting out of federal fire management with my sanity intact.
Thanks to all the organizations and individuals that have been taking this
issue to Congress and keeping us up to date on the 401 issue. You’ve got
one more very passionate advocate on your side!
Signed,
“Frozen North”WOW. In addition to posting replies, I'd also be willing to
pass suggestions behind the scenes. Ab. |
| 4/21 | Hi Gang,
The attachment is for They Said It.
Keep up the good work.
Have a safe season.
Maddog~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Ab,
Ten years and change past my retirement date, I have to admit to now only
occasionally reading “They Said It”; I find the constant reoccurring themes are,
literally, the constant reoccurring themes! I was lucky to start my Federal
Wildland Fire career the summer of ’65 as a Fire Control Aid II, it did not pay
very much, but it was my dream to fight forest fires and the Plumas National
Forest was as good a place to follow that dream as any.
In the Bachelor’s Barracks at the Work Center that summer we spent time
grumbling about wages and getting an “appointment”, and some of us wondering why
the loggers hated piss firs! In ’66, I dropped out of college and worked for the
PNF for nine months, and did just about everything, from tree planting, BRC,
learning how to fall timber and drive a flat bed tanker fitted with a 150 gallon
slip-on unit, to closing the Spanish Peak Lookout in a driving snowstorm with
Lee Reis.
We walked out to Bucks Summit and down to Toll Gate; his truck was towed out
in the spring. Five months later I was drafted, and my brief wildland
fire-fighting career morphed into being a combat medic in a lovely hellhole
called Binh Dinh Province, RVN.
I say all of this, to lead to the thought, that the comments, concerns, and
considerations of the authors of “They Said It”, are timeless in the history of
the Forest Service. In 1975, a group of us proposed a Federal Wildland Fire
Service. (Boy, that was really well received!) I sat on the Forest Committee
charged figuring out how to implement SAFETY FIRST on the Forest. (Basically a
no brainer). In 1976, a bunch of us proposed that at least one member of every
fire crew/ engine/ helicopter/ shots be a Certified EMT, in the aftermath of
several serious and near fatal fire line accidents. (Powers to be hated that
one, but as a former medic it was dear to my heart, as I watch a dear FS friend
try to struggle back from near death inflicted on the walls of the Feather River
Canyon.
As the years progressed we did get some action out of the stale bureaucracy
that was/is the Regional/Washington Office of the USFS. We eventually got
struggling labor organizations, which allowed us to leverage some things. We had
to weather the endless choppy waves of the budget cycle. Reorganization,
consolidation, Consent Decree, more consolidation. Less money. Fewer people.
Falling initial attack capabilities.
I was proud to be early dues paying member of NFFE 1995 and then, Federal
Wildland Fire Service Association, F-262. I was privileged to be asked to
accompany Kent Swartzlander back to Washington DC, where we attended the
National Conference of the International Association of Fire Fighters and
attempted to get them to support our “classification agenda”, and spent two days
on the hill, meeting with congressional staffers for Senators and
Representatives. We actually got to sit down with that unending Congressional
Rep of Northern California, Wally Herger, who in that great big smiley face way
of his greeted us with, “How’s my favorite fire fighters?” He did not know us
from Adam until someone whispered in his ear who we were as we waited in the
foray.
I remember drawing those offices I would canvas, and setting off down the
hallways to my five minute meetings with a staffer generally younger than me,
who in most cases, did not really know that:
- 1) the Forest Service and BLM actually had fire fighters;
- 2) that they were not really classified as Federal Fire fighters; even
through,
- 3) they could retire on OPM certified fire fighter retirement; and….oh
hell, a hold bunch of stuff.
I dare say, you go there today, and spent two days laying out justifications
for proper classification, better wages, better safety, more professionalism;
you get the same blank stares we received.
The reoccurring themes of federal wildland fire management seem timeless and
etched in granite, and I suspect will remain so for some time. However, that
said, do not, ever, ever give up striving to be as professional and progressive
as you can in pursuit of your career. I once wrote, “you do not fire fires for
the money, you fight because you want to; but more money would be nice!”
I have spoken with many members of both USFS & CDF FIRE since that magical
day in January ’98, and know that the last years have not been very kind to
either agency. But recently driving past the brand new USFS Fire Dozer on its
shining lowboy and chase truck; a smile does come to my face and mind. I
remember a bunch of us raising hell when we were told that our initial attack
fire cats and operators were to be eliminated! It was a bad decision that
blackened many acres; luckily years later someone recognized the error; and
gives a chance for a knowing smirk to spread across my face.
Stay the course, stand up and be counted. Change takes time, sometimes a lot
of time. Change will still eventually occur, but without personal effort and
dedication, it just might not be what you wanted.
Fight fire aggressively, but provide for safety first. Head’s up this fire
season.
Oh yeah, Ab, I do miss it still! And a convection column on a mid-slope gets
my attention every time.
Peace, Maddog
Thanks for the history, Maddog. Ab. |
| 4/21 | from the hotlist forum: The funeral services for
Gert (Jerry) Marais, the pilot who died when his single engine air tanker
crashed April 15 on the TA-25 fire near Fort Carson, Colorado, will be in Fort
Benton, Montana, on April 25th at 11:00 AM. The service will be at the Montana
Agricultural Center, 1205 20th Street.
Jackson
Thanks, Jackson.
More info: Visitation is 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. Thursday at Benton Funeral
Home and one hour prior to the 11 a.m. service Friday at the
Agricultural Center in Fort Benton.
Memorials may be made to:
the Marais Family Benefit Account
c/o First Security Bank
PO Box 279
Fort Benton, MT, 59442 |
| 4/21 | The two firefighters in Ordway and the pilot at
Ft. Carson who died in the line
of duty this week will be honored at the Colorado Fallen Firefighters Memorial
annual ceremony here in Lakewood on Saturday, May 10.Each year, the Colorado
Fallen Firefighters Foundation hosts the event to pay
tribute to firefighters who paid the ultimate price in Colorado.
There is a parade at 10:30, and the ceremony begins at 11:00 in Belmar Park,
near Wadsworth and Alameda Pkwy. I've gone to the event every year for the
last several years, just as a grateful citizen - not as an agency rep. It's very
nicely done - dignified and touching.
A lot of people don't know the memorial is practically in our back yard, so I
just
wanted to let folks know about it, since there will be wildland firefighters
honored
this year.
Website for further information, especially if someone wants to put apparatus
in
the parade:
www.coff.us/
Thanks for listening, and I hope to see you there.
<snipped name and position>
Rocky Mountain Region |
| 4/21 |
A good man who will be missed. His voice will forever be etched into
the memory
of everyone who ever heard him.
www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008804200343
www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008804170303
SS |
| 4/21 | Graeagle FF:
Thanks for your good comments on FLAME!
As an FBAN of many years of experience (and working right now) I also want to
praise Jim Bishop's contribution to how we do things. We have welcomed his
presentation into our S290-S390-S490 classes. BUT....You need to know that FLAME
is only one tool in the toolbox. There is so much more to know and I happen not
to think that any of these systems that we use are all that good on ROS. There
are too many other factors not necessarily encompassed by our numeric prediction
systems. E57 comes to mind.
BehavePlus is still the standard at the advanced levels of fire behavior
prediction but it definitely has a few problems in the real world.
My choice for just plain-common-sense-keeping-everybody-safe is still Doug
Campbell's Fire Signature Prediction System combined with paying very close
attention to all of the atmospherics. In the FBAN job I measure all of the
rocket science numerology against all of my own common sense and, oh yeah, many
years of experience.
Go forth. Keep yourself and those around you safe. Become a good FBAN
some day. And, oh yeah, be patient with all of us old far*ts who are just trying
to help with all of the above.
KnuckleDragon |
| 4/21 | JL,
I think when you said 'whether paid or volunteer you should be expected to be as
close to 100% standard as possible' was right on. That about sums it up.
Danfromord,
The topic of volunteer compared to paid is so off topic of anything I was
talking about originally. You bring up excellent points though, and thank you
for your volunteerism. As I said in a post a long time ago, volunteering is how
a lot of the stuff in this country that needs to get done, gets done.
You assume too much when you suggest that I or anyone who wants to be paid a
LIVABLE WAGE should open our eyes and look at all the choices we have, or should
move on to another agency that will pay us that LIVABLE WAGE and stop wallowing
in self pity. You assume too much as well as others may, when you infer that we
whine and don't stand up for change and haven't made personal sacrifices to
further the profession we are passionate about. It reminds me of when I was
finishing my apprenticeship with the Forest Service one winter about two years
ago, and I heard of a 'high up' in the Regional Office responding to the
concerns of retention and recruitment brought up by 'the ground pounders' at a
regional meeting. The solution of the Regional Officer was, 'if you don't like
your pay and benefits, then quit, because their are plenty of people who are
ready to fill your position.' That very next summer as fire season was kicking
off, their were numerous news stories of US Forest Service being understaffed
due to 'a mass exodus of middle management firefighters'. I was one of the
middle management firefighters that quit as well as just about every JAC off my
forest that I went to the academy with, we all took the Regions advice and left.
So now two years later, I have put myself through paramedic school (by the way
Danfromord, I don't get paid for that training, as a matter of fact I pay a
pretty penny for that training) and now I am headed back to the Forest Service
starting up again very soon. I have rejoined the FWFSA and spoke with them about
how to become more active in their cause then just paying membership dues. I
hope to possibly one day help contribute to introducing paramedicine into the US
Forest Service or some sort of centralized Federal Wildland Fire Department.
All of this 'whining' or 'wallowing in self pity' has created a lot of momentum
towards what will hopefully be the change we want. Our refusal to move on to
another agency, our refusal to move to another region, and our refusal to listen
to those who would peg us as self indulgent has created a strong movement. Never
before did we have the issue of retention brought before Congress by a Senator.
Never before has a Senator written a letter to the Chief and Undersecretary not
only calling them on their B.S., but telling them to fix it before another fire
season (Thankyou Casey). Now instead of the region saying openly "if you don't
like it leave", they are looking at how to fund/implement retention solutions.
We don't have the change we want yet, but don't be so presumptuous as to say
that we whine and wallow and don't pursue our dreams.
So no, I won't leave R5, I won't go blue, and I won't stop standing up for
wanting to earn a LIVABLE WAGE and have a good retirement.I will continue to
try and preserve and advance the best firefighting community in the world.
DIB
A bit of history: Here's an interesting 1999 archive:
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/recruit.htm (The Ab there is OA.)
Kent Swartzlander, sup of the Plumas Shots and FWFSA president at the time did
speak before Congress in 1994 on pay and issues related to retention. (Shots are
one of our professional groups and many go on to management positions later in
their careers.) Kent was one of the originators of FWFSA with Don Will and Rusty
Witwer and some others who exercised their first amendment rights and rose to
the need they saw to speak out. Among others, They Said It. It would be
interesting to have the history of that early movement preserved here. OA lent
his support for the logo link and issues as did Larry Jordan (retired CDF
airtanker pilot and AAP webmaster), who hosted the first FWFSA website with the
very basic info. It's one part of a proud history that has taken wildland fire
professionalism a long way. The action of informing each other, informing
Congress and informing the public continues today. Ab. |
| 4/21 | Petrelli / MTDC Briefing paper that addresses
the ISSUE of Short Fire Shelters. Ab.
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=17537#post17537 |
| 4/21 | Paid vs Volunteers?
Having worked as a volunteer firefighter, I respect the commitment and service
that many volunteers bring to the table with little expectation of return or
reward. They're a tribute to our nation's values and virtue. That said, this
notion that our federal wildland firefighters are somehow merely a lucky
"exception to the rule" skims over a great deal of reality. Our nation's
wildland firefighters are expected to display great deal of professionalism and
competence, born out of first-class training and first-hand experience. They are
expected to make significant sacrifices, being separated from their families for
much of the year among many other things. Some sort of "show up to drill twice a
month and try to make at least three calls" system isn't going to make the cut.
The public demands a level of service and professionalism that necessitates
full-time firefighters training and drilling, gaining first-hand experience on
fires large and small, willing to go anywhere at anytime, and willing to make
the commitments necessary to our profession as wildland firefighters. Until we
see thousands of volunteers lining up at the door ready to take positions as
0462 Forestry Technicians and willing to give every ounce of commitment
necessary to our mission's success, this notion that we are simply a lucky
"exception to the rule" misses the target.
Joel
(not trying to burn volunteers, but I don't see anyone lining up to do this for
free) |
| 4/20 | Could anyone send me picture of type 3 and type 4
engines. I am trying to
educate my flatland chiefs on what a wildland engine is.
Our current "brush truck. is a f250 with a 100gallon tank and a 4gpm
powerwasher.
Thank you,
Jason McM (former BLM red card)
Springfield Fire dept (IL)Have you looked on the
engines photo
pages? Ab. |
| 4/20 | Hey Ab,
I have been noticing that when I read and listen to television and radio reports
on the fires in Colorado only two of the three deaths are mentioned. And on the
rare occasion I did hear the death of the SEAT pilot mentioned, he was not
listed as a firefighter. I think this might be a good opportunity for anyone out
there who notices this same thing to either let people know to not forget about
the third firefighter and to inform them that pilots are also firefighters.
I could be wrong, but just thought I'd mention it.
Jumper553 |
| 4/20 | S-290 and FLAME: I just finished S-290,
Intermediate Fire Behavior today. Passed the final with a bit of studying. This
was the 4 day class following the new (12/07) 4 day curriculum. I was extremely
lucky to have some very qualified and great instructors. Brenda Belongie- North
Ops Meteorologist from North Ops/Predictive Services did a great job of teaching
the weather section. Her ability to make us critically think instead of just
read the “cookbook” made me a more knowledgeable firefighter. I think it is easy
to read tables and hear daily weather without thinking about why things are
happening in the weather world. Years of getting the weather on the nightly news
made me think of weather in a very limited fashion. One big “light bulb” that
was turned on for me was making weather 3 dimensional instead of 1 dimensional,
i.e. surfacing winds. I am also indebted to BC Alec Lane and his staff for
filling in the remaining instructor list and putting the class on. Their
experience and real world knowledge definitely helped me learn more about core
concepts related to weather and fire behavior.
As far as the curriculum I am going to concur with previous posts on THEYSAID
regarding FLAME. I am not about to generalize all firefighters into the category
of “knuckle draggers” but FLAME is a complicated process that most of us will
not get or use. I don’t think FLAME will ever be used in the cab of an engine I
am working on or on line that is being cut. However, FBAN’s should use this
process as it does do a great job of predicting ROS. The South Canyon exercise
in the class displayed that Flame does produce quality (as close as you can get)
ROS calculations. If an FBAN ended up getting these ROS calculations into an IAP
I would definitely consider them good tools in the toolbox. I do also think the
concepts that deliver a ROS through FLAME are important for the engine
boss/ff/crew level. We all need to understand that an increase in slope and wind
will cause and "expected" increase in ROS. I realize that Mr. Bishop (FLAME
creator) had an awesome goal of making us look at “expected” fire behavior in
order to save our bacon on high intensity fires. I applaud him for making an
effort to try to decrease firefighter fatalities and injuries. I also applaud
the fact that he did this on a volunteer basis.
It does seem that prescribed fire folks could use FLAME as well to
effectively determine ROS. I will say my prescribed fire experience is very
limited so I will leave this opinion to the people in the know.
I know there has been previous discussion on Campbell Prediction. So I will
not belabor the point but CPS is the way to go. I can easily remember the CPS
chart to this day. Alignment makes total sense. FLAME makes sense also. But one
is quicker the other, CPS makes sense when things are burning. FLAME makes sense
for the FBAN who has a little more time than the guys pulling up in an engine or
buggy.
In closing, I would think FLAME is a good tool for the classes above the 290
level. I also think 290 should discuss FLAME as we all need to understand what
it is and how it can be a useful tool….. from the IAP.
Graeagle FF |
| 4/20 | Misery Whip Here's what Becki Forest-Supervisor
(on the Wenatchee- Okanogan NFs)
said on 4/14 theysaid post from Gorge FMO:
I plan on attending as much of the trial as possible. When I’m not
there, my representative will be. I will wear my uniform proudly in
support of all employees and the Agency. I have identified a few
employees that will serve a variety of roles in an official capacity at
the trial, including keeping you informed of the proceedings. Others
interested in attending can do so on their own time, not in an official
capacity, with the use of leave pre-approved by their supervisor.
She may be there in an official capacity, though.
Mellie |
| 4/20 | cprda,
Here is some info to get you started...I gotta run. I'll be available again in
one week.
Thanks for the courteous reply. Be sure to check out the inflation
calculator....The cost of living calculator is pretty interesting as well....and
I did say "total" of 20.55% in the post. I guess it would have read
better if I had said "rates" as well.
Again, thanks for the interest. Check out the link.
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx
Regards,
Joatmon |
| 4/20 | Joatmon, Respectfully, how did you come up with
8 year inflation rate of 20.55%?
cprda |
| 4/20 | cprda
The inflation rate from January 2001 to January 2008 was a total of 20.55%...
$$$
-Joatmon |
| 4/19 | All,
Does anyone know if the Forest Service is going to advise employees on
what they may or may not do related to attending Ellreese's upcoming
trial? I would specifically like to know what the Chief's stance would
be toward an employee who was willing to take annual leave to attend
Ellreese's trial and wanted to wear the uniform as a show of support. I
know if I was sitting in Ellreese's place, it would make me feel better
to see my brother and sister firefighters wearing the colors behind me.
I haven't felt like wearing the uniform for a long time, but I would
make an exception in this case if the Chief says it is OK.
Free Ellreese
Misery Whip |
| 4/19 | Here is a question.
Background: My agency follows 310-1 April 2006 (NPS)
I was talk to another wildland firefighter today and we came to a
disagreement. Here is the question:
You just took a class that included S-130/190 and L-180. You took I-100
online, do you need a refresher (RT-130) before you can FFT2 ICQS qual
or better known as a "red card". One more, how about HELM, do you need
RT-372 before you can have a taskbook issued?
One of us has the correct answer. We thought we needed other input to
solve the question.
Good luck R5, I support you all the way.
Signed Former R5 JAC now NPS Captain. |
| 4/19 |
Blue Cut Burnover, 2002 AB,
I was wondering if you or anyone else has any info on the
burnover featured in this video;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIBOL2yrRM
I noticed some interesting things going on with the burnout
operation featured right at the beginning.
1.) The firefighters seem to be taking quite a large chunk of
unburned fuel for the wind speeds that are evident. Something
that would seem to make the holding effort difficult.
2.) Then, the lower of the two firefighters performing the
staggered burnout get ahead of the upper firefighter, something
that i was taught was a small safety hazard, but a safety hazard
all the same. Especially given the steepness of the terrain, the
wind speed, and the way the upper firefighter keeps falling
down.
Anyway, Just some personal observations. I would love to read
what really happened, I spent a season working on the San Berdue
and i know how insane those winds can be.
JG |
| 4/19 | MLK, I don't care to argue, however, I believe
we can discuss these concerns. Some of these issues between us are like
comparing apples and oranges, however the rough similarities are there.
I will state right now, that I am a "contractor". I will also strongly
add that our company ALWAYS receives exceptional performance reviews
from a multitude of agencies.
I would like to bring up your point of in 2001 one the entry wages
where between $ 8 and $10 an hour and that now, 8 years later they are
between $10 and $12+. That is a 20% raise!! Sounds like progress to me.
In this time, my wife who is a medical professional has received a
combined raise of 7.86% , and she is in a very desirable position to a
multitude of employers. Now I looked up my rates that that we were hired
out at in 2001 before the best value method and compared them to what I
have to bid at now and we have taken a 32% CUT! In this time we have
replaced all of our equipment and added numerous years of experience to
our employees' knowledge base. I also just looked over our CALFIRE
agreement and this year we received a new 3 year contact with a 4%
increase over our last 3 year contract issued in '05. At the current
fuel prices, this will looks to be a net zero gain. I will not complain
about this, because at the end of the day I will still make a few
dollars and I love my job! Now I admit that our guys gross around $350
per shift which is comparable to what they could make say in the
construction or logging trade as equipment operators. We also know that
if we did not pay them this wage they would MOVE ON to somewhere that
they could make the wage.
My biggest problem with the whole contracting thing has to do with
ROSS and the dispatching process. We have invested heavily in high end
and quality equipment and education for our employees and it greatly
frustrates me when a team is in need for a piece of equipment with a
gizmo on it (GEL, CAFS, a million miles of hose or whatever), and so
they place the order out through ROSS and the dispatchers don't know how
to find us since this certain "gizmo" is not listed as a search feature
on ROSS. It also is a bit depressing knowing that our equipment (new and
loaded) is dispatched with the same priority as a pickup with a hand
crank pump (yes that was an exaggeration, but you get the point).
It also bugs me when our local dispatch center wont send us out,
(even when there are orders for equipment) just because they want us to
be around in case if they need us. Now this is common, at times, with
paid agency people, but when this happens to us, we are not paid if we
aren't out on an incident. How can we pay for good quality equipment if
we don't receive any jobs? When an agency employee is held, they are
likely getting paid at the same time. Perhaps they are doing project
work or "polishing" the engine. Should firefighters be paid more than
$12 an hour? Yes they should! Yet remember to look at the plus side too,
and they got a 20% pay raise in the last 8 years under an administration
that is trying to cut costs....
I will stand up for you guys for a better "living wage" Will you guys
stand with me for a better dispatch process for us contractors?
I guess in closing I can say, "see MLK, I guess even I can whine too
;)"
Have a good an safe and yes PROSPEROUS fire season!
cprda |
| 4/19 | My husband and I own a cabin in the Island Park
are of the Caribou-Targhee Natinal Forest, 35 miles southwest of West
Yellowstone Montana. My husband is a career firefighter (Division Chief) and has
done a lot to keep our cabin "Fire Safe". He has created and good fifty foot
defensible space, increased available water sourses, created a sprinkler system
to protect the cabin's roof, sides and eves. This part of the forest is
protected by two USFS light engines and a twenty-person hand crew in addition to
the local Volunteer Fire Department and four private engines and two private
water tenders.
This part of the state is protected by mostly volunteer fire departments and
volunteer ambulance organizations. Those Volunteer Organization have some very
dedicated firefighters and emts. Qualifications include national standard
firefighter levels, wildland firefighting courses, emt-basic to intermediate,
and hazmat tech. The FS Engines do not respond to any fire or ems calls other
than wildland fires on the forest. EMS calls are answered by Volunteer Units
(EMT-B to EMT-Intermediate and Private Services (EMT-B to Paramedic). Advanced
Life Support (ALS) and HazMat is provided by area Career Firefighters and County
Paramedics, I haven't seen any Volunteer Paramedics due to the CE (Continuing
Education) Requirements. Just down the road from our cabin is a private engine
(6x6 IH, 4 person cab, 1500 gpm pump, 1700 gal. tank, 4 person crew with one
being a paramedic), I believe this engine is considered "All Risk".
I've notice that most of the posts on "TheySaid" deal with issues of pay and
retention in R5 and that is good but R% Firefighters are not the only FS
Firefighters facing hard economic times. Around Island Park gas price average
about $3.90-$4.00/gal, a gallon of milk is $4.50 (no walmarts around), homes
range from $100K to $1,000.000+, point being most FS Employees here feel the
economic crunch the same as those in R5. I agree with one of the earlier posts
here on TheySaid "We're all in this together.
Last summer I was on stand-by in Hailey Id for the Castle Rock Fire, My husband
was leading a 5-engine task force. There were 25 municipal, rural and volunteer
fire departments, numerous private engines along side FS Crews, a lot of
multi-million dollar homes were protected by Volunteer and Career Fire Crews (FS
had some Light Engines there)...none of those crews stayed in the Sun Valley
Lodge while they were in Sun Valley. Some CalFire Engines even showed up. This
situation happened often in Idaho last summer...Yea We're all in this together.
Jodie
Flight RN
Idaho |
| 4/19 | Hello,
My name is John Ristvedt I am currently a resident of Graceville MN, I have my
firefighter 1 certification and EMT. I am looking to expand my experience and
learn how to fight forest fires. I think there is a three day training that is
involved. The purpose behind this inquiry is to be able to move to Duluth during
the summer and get a job or volunteer with that effort during the summer while
my soon to be wife goes to medical school there. If you could provide me with
any information or direct me or my message to the right people that would be
wonderful. Thank you very much.
John R<snip> |
| 4/19 | Re: Jim Barnett's IFPM Memo
"Also, remember that this relief is in addition to those that will be
published by NWCG and the Implementation Team by mid-May which will provide some
NWCG position qualification relief to about 5 or 6 positions for some or
all complexity levels."
Should I translate this to mean those who currently meet the GS-401 education
requirement, yet lack the required fire experience, will catch a free pass?
Hmmm. Do I sense the development of a double standard for certain positions (FFMOs
& AFFMOs) where fire suppression and rx burning experience is considered
inferior and inconsequential compared to education in the biological sciences?
| |