Saturday afternoon…temps hovering around 100, RHs below 5%, winds
expected to blow thru Thursday, at or near historic ERC’s, plenty of grass
on the ground, dry as a bone and a smoke column to the west around
Silver City, …buckle up and hang on!

BLMboy

Um hum, and which state is your Silver City located in? Idaho? New Mexico? Nevada, Montana? Ab.

The same thing is happening in Arizona as well. The regional office
isn't releasing any 'Severity' dollars, so, in turn, nobody is receiving
any overtime. Also, we did start our yearly sister swap with the Helena
National Forest during pay period 10 and they were receiving 8 hour days as
well. They have since gone home.

The downward spiral of this Forest Service organization is frightening.

USDA Forestry Technician

Your statement that 6/7th day and extended staffing must be paid out of WFPR is incorrect. Below is the current national direction since 2005. WFPR and WFSU are both approved for use for 6/7th and extending staffing. The decision process to use either one is based on the following (read the first sentence carefully):

51.11a - Firefighter and Equipment Charges (pertinent text below)
Do not spend in excess of the planned and budgeted WFPR account for replacement personnel and their support. Replacement of personnel and equipment assigned to emergency incidents is authorized only when local fire danger justifies the replacements.

Ordered stand-by, pre-positioning, and move-up-and-cover are charged as follows:
1. Use WFPR if the order is based on a perceived threat (high fire danger).
2. Use WFSU if the order is based on actual starts in the immediate initial attack area and the order is for time outside normal work hours or work week.

If a unit uses WFPR only for extra staffing, they could violate direction by spending in excess on planned WFPR budgets. The national direction wants/requires a fair distribution between WFPR and WFSU with these anticipated events and associated costs. Line Officers need to allow Chief Officers to make good judgments with these definitions.

I suggest we not get all excited about this now since we have been implementing these rules successfully the past two fire seasons without much ado except for a recent spike in chatter on this subject.

However, if Line Officers or someone in the Regional Office, even if it's RO FAM, who are heavily influenced by Line Officers, are responsible in this spike in chatter and are not allowing local Chief Officers to follow national direction, they need to be reported immediately for violation of not following national direction. Local Chief Officers must have the flexibility to define the above direction and implement usage of WFPR or WFSU staffing based on ground experience, historical patterns and the good old gut feelings about what's the right thing to do. They need to have the same flexibility Tom Harbour had when he ordered WFSU usage for himself and the Angeles fire organization when he was a local Chief Officer.

Centralized Fire Management = Professional Actions, Fiscal Responsibility, Decision Making Efficiency and Maximum Production from Properly Paid Firefighters.

Centralized Fire Management Today, Tomorrow and Forever!

So how do we respond to "leaving the Forest Service" post? Simple. Do exactly as I did when I heard about a Los Padres Battalion Chief leaving. Open an email and write your US Senators and local Congressional Rep and tell them "the story" of yet another Forest Service employee who is leaving. When all 4000+ of us do this in honor of everyone we know or hear about who leaves, it gets a strong point across and information to the one group the Line Officers are afraid to hear from.

Speaking of communications, another example of a complete disconnect between Line Officers/RO FAM and rank and file occurred today. TODAY marks the second reporting deadline for the retention sub-groups progress reports to the retention group leads (see April theysaid email from RO about group responsibilities). We received no information from the April 30 required update and again, nothing from todays update deadline. If you have any meetings, inspections or reviews planned with your Line Officers in the coming weeks, I recommend you ask them why no communications and remind them behind the scenes much is in the works to hold them accountable for complete mismanagement.

Stand Strong!

ms

Working for Ron Smith as a Texas Canyon Hotshot was and
always will be the greatest honor of my Forest Service career.

Larry Peabody

Two hit by lightning near Whitefish

Two hospitalized after Whitefish lightning strike
Reporting from KAJ in Kalispell

Two firefighters are now out of the hospital after being hit by lightning on Thursday.

The 25 year old woman and a 29 year old man are both members of the Flathead National Forest Hot Shot fire crew.

They were working on a prescribed burn west of Whitefish when the lightning hit a couple of trees near where they were working.

The U.S. Forest Service is still investigating the incident.

A pair of U.S. Forest Service workers remained in the hospital on Friday morning after being struck by lightning some 10 miles northwest of Whitefish on Thursday.

Officials tell us that a 25 year old woman was flown by LifeFlight to Kalispell Regional Medical Center and a 29 year old man was taken by ambulance to North Valley Hospital following the hit, which happened west of Whitefish near Star Meadows Road. The two were listed in stable condition after the incident.

U.S. Forest Service Hot Shot Crews were doing a prescribed burn in the Logan Creek area and were headed back to their vehicles after seeing thunderstorms and lightning in the area when lighting struck two trees, injuring both firefighters.

Now, USFS officials are trying to sort out exactly what happened.

"While back in route to the vehicles a downstrike hit a tree or was a groundstrike," explains Brett Pargman with the Flathead National Forest. "A couple firefighters were in the vicinity of that area and they you know received some either direct or indirect contact from lightning strike."

A lightning strike doesn't need to be direct to injure and if it hits a tree or object, and the electrical discharge can run through a person.

(from May 29, 2008)

Two Forest Service workers are in the hospital after lightning struck them about 10 miles northwest of Whitefish on Thursday afternoon.

The Life Flight medical helicopter flew one of the workers, a 25 year old woman, to Kalispell Regional Medical Center while a Whitefish ambulance took the other, a 29 year old man, to North Valley Hospital.

Both the employees are now listed in stable condition.

Forest Service Hot Shot Crews were doing a prescribed burn in the Logan Creek area. They saw the thunderstorms and lightning coming in, and began to head back to their vehicles. That's when lighting struck two trees and injured two of the firefighters.

Brett Pargman with the Flathead National Forest, says they are investigating what happened when the strike came down.

"While back in route to the vehicles a downstrike hit a tree or was a groundstrike, a couple firefighters were in the vicinity of that area and they you know received some either direct or indirect contact from lightening strike."

A lightning strike doesn't need to be direct to injure -- it can hit a tree or object, and the electrical discharge can run through a person.

Fair Use Disclaimer

One Squad of the Flathead Shots on the Big Bar Complex in 1999 from Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.dailyinterlake.com/articles/2008/05/30/news/news03.txt

Lightning strikes two firefighters
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 - 08:20:16 am MDT

The Daily Inter Lake
Two members of the Flathead National Forest Hot Shot Fire Crew were struck by lightning Thursday afternoon while working on a prescribed burn west of Whitefish in the Tally Lake Ranger District.

The lightning strike occurred shortly after 1 p.m. near the intersection of Star Meadow and Logan Creek roads about three miles west of Tally Lake. The firefighters reportedly were near but not inside their vehicle when they were hit.

Two trees next to the firefighters also were struck, and authorities aren’t sure whether the firefighters were hit directly or the lightning struck the trees before jumping to the firefighters, according to Denise Germann, Flathead Forest public information officer.

The ALERT helicopter transported one of the firefighters, a 25-year-old woman, to Kalispell Regional Medical Center. The Whitefish Fire Department transported the second firefighter, a 29-year-old man, to North Valley Hospital.

Both firefighters were in stable condition Thursday evening.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Flathead Hotshots Website

Condolences. Ab.

Ron Smith, ex-superintendent of Texas Canyon HS passed away earlier today.
I worked for "The Old Man" during the late 80's and early 90's on TC and even
as a newbee could tell how respected he was in the fire service. I'm sure there
are those on this site that knew him and worked with him that can better express
the importance and impact he had on wildland fire, just wanted to get the news out.

bd hotshot

Hotlist thread for condolences: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4552
If anyone wants to send photos, I'll post them. Ab.

"INSANITY is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

OLD LPF

This keeps coming up so I am going to finally take the bait and answer.
I was hoping that I could rely on my dear friend Mr. Vail to answer for
me, but that is not to be.

So here goes:
I worked on the Lassen Hot Shots in 1976 and 1977.
I imagine that Glo's season started earlier in 1976, so she retains the
national title for now.

Although I may have been on a crew in R5 before Deanne Shulman, I want you
all to know that she was and will always remain the better hot shot,
female or otherwise.
She truly is an amazing person, firefighter and pioneer in so many ways. We
all owe her a great debt.

I think that there were women on crews in Region 6 before1976 and I have
sent out a note to a reliable source.
When I find out you will all be the first to know.

Signed,
No need for a pseudonym
Sue Husari
Fire Management Officer
Pacific West Region
National Park Service

Thanks, Sue. I was hoping someone like you would send in the "facts". I think you had to have been there.
A few of us know how much a pioneer you were, as well. We appreciate the pioneers. Ab.

hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=20159

CONGRATS UKONOM! You've worked for it. Carry on. Ab.

The reason I'm leaving is that Region 5 Forest Service has said there will be no overtime authorized (extended staffing, working 6th day, etc.). This is where we all know that we make our money, often it's money we need to make ends meet. From now on I will not work my 6th day when offered even if I need the money. In addition, I will be looking for a new job elsewhere on my days off. I am going to apply everywhere. I know I will be able to secure a job elsewhere. I already have my application in with CALFIRE and I am on the list to be hired. I am also going to go to municipal departments. A few have seen how I work and have been asking me for years to apply.

Currently we are short drivers on the forest where I work. One just left to go to CALFIRE. I am sure there will be more to leave, having talked to the other FEOs, AFEOs, and Lead Firefighters. When we heard the other day that no overtime will be given unless we are on a fire, the other firefighters that work on the same engine I do were upset. Again this is how we make our money.

The RO and WO better wake up because before you know it, they will be waking up to having fewer drivers and very few firefighters to complete engines and crews. I will refuse to work my days off for any reason other than fire, so they will have to shut engines down due to no drivers. Wait until we are on drawdown and we won’t be able to staff the engine because I know I won’t be in on my days off. If I were working for CALFIRE, they would give me 19 hours of overtime in the same situation.

When will the region wake up and quit messing with us here? Upon completion of this I will be contacting Feinstein, Boxer, and my state representative, who by the way, has been active in working for better pay for federal firefighters. I advise all to do the same and let them know what is going on. Let them know that when that big fire hits us here in California there will be less engines to staff because of FS implementation that R5 put in place a few days ago.

I would like all to comment on this if you can. If you did not know about the no overtime, talk to your chiefs to get the scoop on it.

Signed,
Leaving the Forest Service

Have a relaxing time communing with the ancestors. Watch out for the big surf. Ab.

#10 - "Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force"

Keep the 10/18, Keep Commander's intent, Keep Doctrine. Just ditch all of the latest and greatest catch-phrases that keep getting regurgitated out of the WO like bad Chinese food.

Ah, wait - that gives us something to chuckle about on the fireline after 5 days spiked out without a shower and working in near vertical terrain.

wrench

If we used all the knowledge of the retired fed fire management employees to replace the State, County & Muni folks now doing the job at $1000 + a day (because the fed's existing workforce sure can't muster up the requested orders), how much savings to the taxpayer could occur over a fire season? That is, assuming the retired fed would work under the paltry AD pay schedule. Many won't.

Greed?? I hardly think so...

Fish01

And your point about becoming intimately familiar with the workspace is insightful. Wildland fire and mining have in common that we basically destroy our work area as we go; if we stick in the same place for too long we aren’t accomplishing our mission! We also share a transient, physical, dominantly rural workforce. What mining has fought for at least a hundred years and that wildland fire is starting to encounter is “absentee leadership” by folks who have not come up through the profession and who are unaware of the “field-fit” realities on the ground. The mining industry is also facing huge issues with an aging workforce, loss of “brain trust”, and hostile local and national legislation. I think there are good parallels there that could make for a cautionary tale for the wildland fire world. We call it “talking safety and walking production”. Now, thanks to the slump and then rise in metals prices, we’re seeing a dangerous mix of a high proportion of rookies, a high proportion of “short-timers”, many of whom came into the industry via the 1970’s uranium boom, and nothing in between. I expect a big upswing in medical issues in the aging portion of our force (on the job MIs, diabetes, stroke, etc.), and an upswing in traumatic injuries due to inexperience in the rookie portion. Can wildland fire expect the same?

That was something of a digression, but I think you’re right that a wildland fire HRO is going to have to be different, because we rely so heavily on qualitative, rather than quantitative clues and predictors of changing conditions. Our job cannot really by automated or mechanized, which means that we are incredibly dependent on experience, leadership, and, really, intuition.

We’ve also got a lack of “metrics” by which to measure success. All our indicators are trailing indicators; lack of injuries, lack of fires escaping containment, etc. What would be quantitative measurements of leading indicators in fire? When I first learned about HROs (in a non-fire context) the focus seemed to be on reproducibility, on performing the same task many thousands of times with complacency, slackness or error. In a gross sense, we do the same thing on every fire, but we never really fight the same fire twice. Maybe HRO isn’t the right template for us. Maybe we should appropriate some aspects of the HRO concept, but maybe fire needs something new and different, more flexible, more proactive, with more emphasis on experience and leadership and communication, and less on reproducibility.

Intothewind asked about scalability. I think that HROs not only can be but have to be scalable. There needs to be personal commitment to the overall mission at every level or it all falls apart. When you get Mini-HROs within a broken larger organization, you get the Nut Island effect:

www.hbsp.harvard.edu/hbsp/hbr/articles/article.jsp?articleID=R0103C&ml_action=get-article&print=true

I submit that perhaps the fire service within the forest service is experiencing a grand-scale Nut Island Effect. I don’t have any ideas for making it better, aside from the obvious complete restructure as a federal wildland fire agency, which I think the PTBs will fight tooth and claw.

Nerd on the Fireline

Thanks Bethany. Ab.

Thanks, Scott.
OK, so "Glow" aka Gloria Eighmey is currently the first female shot as far as we know. Anybody know more? Ab.

Hi Tom, great to see you're still out there. In my opinion as long time editor here, the greed comment was a "troll" on the original poster's part. Remember the guys that would write in here in the early days of theysaid-it to "fish" and see who got the greatest number of knee-jerk responses? They kept track. The winner got taken to dinner or bar hopping by the losers or some such. Ah, those were the glory days... Ab.

I believe a fine solution for finding new young men and women to work as seasonals would be to advertise nationally. If I had only known how great the job of fighting wildfires is, I would have joined years ago! A simple television commercial and some press releases would certainly generate a lot of attention. And, if that message was intended for those looking for adventure, extremely hard work, a good way to put a bigger dent in college bills/class requirements and a great "summer job" (good stories to tell your friends who flipped burgers/folded clothes all summer!) I'm sure the numbers would increase... let's not forget a lot of young people like me just don't know about these jobs and may come from regions where there isn't any interaction with wildfire but could provide a great service.

For hrslave, someone please let the computer tech's at AVUE know about this problem... this can easily be fixed by accessing the database and creating a prompt "you must select all to qualify" if the applicant does not select all.

Thanks for all the information on the site,
--still thinking of a clever nickname

There were some great photos taken at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
Family Day. Check 'em out. www.wffoundation.org/FamilyFire20082.htm

Thanks for putting that on!

Kudos to SoCal Team 3!!!! Way to go!!!!!!!

OVERTIME MEANS "ONE HOT" DONATION FOR THE WFF
The folks on the Southern Incident Management Team (Southern California
Team 3) decided to dedicate 1 hour of overtime pay to the Foundation
each time their team is activated. Their first activation was on the Santa
Anita Fire. The Team donated nearly $2,000!

Tahoe Terrie

I was wondering how to find out if I was the first women ever to be on a hot shot crew.
I was on the morman lake (ARIZONA ) hotshot crew in 1976. The year 3 crew
members were killed.

Thank you,

"Glow" aka Gloria Eighmey

Hi Glow. You can look here: Inquiring Minds Want to Know (IMWTK) Whether you were first or not, you were one of the first. I'll add you to the list.

Does anyone have contact with Deanne Schulman. If you do, would you ask her if she remembers her first year as a hotshot?

In poking around for more info, I found this:
1991 Gina Papke became superintendent of the Zigzag Hotshots, the first woman superintendent of a hotshot crew. www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/zigzag/history.html

Ab.

Subject: Extension of Application Period for new IHC Announcements

We have added all the missing duty locations to all the IHC announcements.
We will wait until 6/17 to generate those referral lists, the same date to
generate the Developmental GS-5 referral list. Last day to apply is 6/16.
Please let your recruiters and Hotshot and Type 2 IA crew leaders know of
this change.

ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(SQDLDR)-06G (Merit)
ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(SQDLDR)-06DP (Demo)
ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(ASST)-0708G (Merit)
ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(ASST)-0708DP (Demo)
ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(SUPT)-09G (Merit)
ADS08-FSJOBS-IHC(SUPT)-09DP (Demo)

"The United States Congress chartered the FIRESCOPE project in 1972 and directed the Forest Service to assist the Southern California fire agencies in a program to review research, development and applications."

"The Initial funding (1972-1977) came from the Forest Service research Funds and 5 million dollars was spent on system design."

"The federal government would allocate 2.4 million dollars to assist in this initial implementation. In 1979, an additional 10 to 12 million dollars would be spent on full implementation. The partner agencies assumed costs for operation and maintenance of the system. In 1976, the operations coordination center was established in Riverside for Multi-Agency Coordination (MACS) of the FIRESCOPE region."

In terms of all risk training and experience... my CV is verifiable and rates highly on both current municipal quals (Chief Officer level) and current wildland quals (Senior Chief Officer level).... I could leave the Forest Service in a heartbeat, but I choose to stay in the trenches with the troops I am supposed to lead.... and follow their guidance from below. I won't run until I see the leaders above me run.... at which time, I'll run the fastest.....

Lobotomy

GOVs = Government Operated Vehicles

Misery Whip, I wonder if the Forest Service can be a HRO under any administration even though I feel like the current one has certainly let us down big time.

Tim, I agree with you that the main impediments to the Forest Service being a HRO are "decentralized management of the programs and the lack of agency commitment correcting major deficiencies that are out there." I also agree that there are "pockets of HRO" within crews, within IMTs and within some dispatch shops. One thing that drew me to fire in R5 is/was the excellence and professionalism of the HRO type program and the focus and dedication of the leadership at all levels.

AL, you asked about other industries and organizations -- in addition to wildland firefighting -- that operate under HRO structure or are trying to; these are high risk industries which have fewer accidents and mishaps in spite of the fact that one error or an accumulation of errors can have catastrophic consequences:

health care/medicine- hospitals
mining industry
nuclear power industry & nuclear waste storage
oil companies
chemical plants
electrical energy industry
air traffic controllers
NASA
aircraft carriers
worldwide financial network/world bank

Still thinking on this...

For now let me leave it at that...

Mellie

Cabela’s has gone crazy and is offering all firefighters, EMS, law enforcement, military
and veterans our employee discount on June 2, 3 and 4, 2008.

It’s our way of saying thanks to our Hometown Heroes.

Please pass this on to anyone who would be interested.

Employee discount is up to 25% off in-store merchandise, with a few exclusions.

Thanks – hope to see you in June!

Cabela's
Glendale Avenue and Loop 101
Glendale, AZ 85305
Dir: 623.872.6700

"During last year's firestorms, for example, GIS allowed firefighters to see
through the smoke-giving them a more accurate, real-time view of conditions
on the ground."

The GIS cannot SEE anything! It can display what infrared interpreters see
in thermal imagery in context with other available datasets. Emitted
thermal heat can be 'seen' or detected, through smoke, by the right sensor.

The National Infrared Operations Program at NIFC flies two aircraft with
such sensors and there is a Nation-wide cadre of interpreters that provide
this intelligence to the SITL. We've been doing this for over forty years.
We flew over 1,600 fires in 2007. NIROps takes advantage of other thermal
infrared aircraft/sensors as well. For more information, visit the
homepage at http://nirops.fs.fed.us.

And, to mitigate any flaming replies (pun intended), GIS also displays the
GPS data collected from airborne and ground-based technical specialists.
Thank you to all the GISSs that put in long hours to put all this data
together and get it into the hands and pockets of the firefighters.

IRGirl

1. I have experience performing wildland fire suppression duties as a member of an organized fire suppression crew or comparable unit that utilized knowledge of fire suppression techniques and practices under various conditions.

2. To determine your eligibility for a primary firefighting position, indicate whether you meet the following age requirement: I am under age 37; OR, after subtracting the months of past Federal service in covered firefighter positions (includes both primary and secondary designated positions), I am less than age 37.

3. I have 90 days of on the line wildland firefighting experience gained through containment, control, suppression or use of wildland fire.

I hate to see qualified people that widen our candidate pool disqualified for simply not checking boxes, but that is the reality of AVUE. Make sure you thoroughly read ALL the directions when completing your application. Some places you must mark more than one choice and others you will choose only one.

hrslave

Ab's bold.

It's a wmv file. If anyone wants to view it, email and I'll send it along. Ab.

> From FIRESCOPE(2008):

The FIRESCOPE Program originated in Southern California, organized under the acronym, "FIrefighting REsources of Southern California Organized for Potential Emergencies" in 1972. By legislative action, the FIRESCOPE Board of Directors and the Office of Emergency Services (OES) Fire and Rescue Service Advisory Committee were consolidated into a working partnership on September 10, 1986. This consolidation represents all facets of local, rural, and metropolitan fire departments, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, and federal fire agencies.

Through this partnership, FIRESCOPE was established as a statewide program under the redefined acronym "FIrefighting RESources of California Organized for Potential Emergencies." To further support FIRESCOPE's statewide program, CALFIRMS (CALifornia Fire Information Resource Management Systems) in Northern California joined with FIRESCOPE as the Northern Operations Team. Under provisions set forth by Senate Bill 27, chaptered on October 2, 1989, under Health and Safety Code Section 13070, the Office of Emergency Services (OES), California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF) and the State Fire Marshal (SFM) are to jointly establish and administer the FIRESCOPE Program.

The FIRESCOPE program is intended to complete the legislative attempt to unify these various fire agencies together into one voice and direction. The character of this group is comprised of diverse fire agencies derived from the founding legislation. The synergy created by these diverse fire agencies truly provides valuable input to the Director of the Governor's Office of Emergency Services in addressing the future of fire/rescue services in California and assures excellent representation for the continued development of FIRESCOPE products.

The organization/program of the OES Advisory Board and the organization/program of FIRESCOPE are to deal with mutual aid, cooperative agreements, and fire/rescue regional policy issues and to advise the Director of OES in matters of statewide importance.

The decision-making process for these matters rest within a majority-rule process based on the size of the Board and limited discussion time; minority viewpoints are also forwarded to the OES Director for consideration.

Do you know of other High Reliability Organizations beyond aviation. What have they done?

AL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Disaster Earthquake Scenario Unveiled for Southern California
Released: 5/22/2008 10:00:00 AM

www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1947

Contact Information:
U.S. Department of the Interior, U.S. Geological Survey
Office of Communication
119 National Center
Reston, VA 20192

<snip contacts>
___________________________________________________________

Editors' notes: A telephone conference call is scheduled for 10:30 a.m. PDT for a brief presentation and opportunity for questions with the principal authors. Call 605-990-0100, and enter conference code 1009678#

B-roll animations and high-resolution images are available at http://urbanearth.usgs.gov/shakeout.

Scientists today unveiled a hypothetical Scenario describing how a magnitude 7.8 Southern California earthquake -similar to the recent earthquake in China- would impact the region, causing loss of lives and massive damage to infrastructure, including critical transportation, power, and water systems.

In the Scenario, the earthquake would kill 1800 people, injure 50,000, cause $200 billion in damage, and have long-lasting social and economic consequences. This is the most comprehensive analysis ever of what a major Southern California earthquake would mean, and is the scientific framework for what will be the largest earthquake preparedness drill in California history, scheduled for November 13, 2008. [more at the usgs link above]

Dear Senator Feinstein,

I appreciate your interest and energy in helping to resolve the issues facing retention of fire personnel with the US Forest Service in the State of California. I am a 24 year federal (fire) employee of the USFS and in my career I have never seen such a blatant disregard for the welfare of the employees of this once great agency. The information you are receiving through the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association is the most accurate you can get. I am a member of that association and we basically tell it like it is. I was an employee of the -redacted-, located in -redacted-, on the- redacted- National Forest.

I have just resigned to accept a job with the State of California as a Fire Captain. My position for the last 2 years with the FS was as a Fire Battalion Chief. I thought long and hard about this decision to leave but the pay, benefits and work environment with the State are far more conducive to being successful that it was fairly easy. The hard part was leaving my friends.

The burden shift on FS supervisory employees has been tremendous over the last few years that we can hardly spend any time in the field supervising our subordinates, where we really need to be. The move of all personnel servicing to Albuquerque has created a vacuum where we literally get NO service whatsoever. Supervisors have been told that we need to accomplish the administrative tasks that were previously done for us by on site personnel specialists. We ARE NOT personnel specialists, we are Forestry Technicians and Firefighters.

The ridiculous AGLEARN training requirements require my fire crews to leave their stations and travel up to 50 miles just to access computers with high speed access. This affects their ability to respond to wildland fires and could increase incident costs but leadership puts more emphasis on AGLEARN. Our Forest Leadership MANDATES completion of these courses and threatens holding payroll, disciplinary action and stand downs during fire season. This is not commonly known but it happened in 2007.

I am fortunate enough that I have made a career change in time to maintain a positive attitude but I feel sorry for those I leave behind. They are my peers and friends and I would love to see their work environment improve. -sentence redacted to prevent retaliation on a current FS employee-

Below I will paste the text from my letter of resignation so you can see what issues I have addressed and why I left.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Dear -name redacted-, District Ranger

I hereby submit my resignation from my position as Assistant District Fire Management Officer, Battalion Chief, effective -redacted- after nearly 24 years of federal public service. My last actual day of work will be -redacted- to help the district staff through the weekend. The remainder of the pay period I will use accumulated annual leave to take a transition break before my new job.

The main reason I am leaving is to fulfill a personal goal of mine to become a Professional Firefighter. Also, I am leaving because I no longer have confidence in the leadership of the U.S. Forest Service. The fire program has evolved into the modern era while management has chosen to stay in the past. Line officers do not have the experience and decision making capacity to operate in an emergency operations environment. Gone are the days when Line Officers held Command and General Staff positions in the Incident Command System. Line Officers should either resign themselves to a support role, or be mandated to become fully qualified fire managers just as fire personnel are mandated to become "Professionals" i.e. IFPM and 0401, or be removed.

The best immediate solution is an absolute Centralized fire management organization led by experienced fire management leaders. I do hope those in charge realize this soon or the whole organization will collapse; they owe it to the folks who ruin their backs and knees in wildland fire. Provide housing for the lower grade employees in high cost areas, pay them a living wage, treat them like family, like the Forest Service was when I started in July of 1985.

Classify them as Professional Wildland Firefighters; give them the title they deserve to work under, not just a title to die with. This organization has the ability, all it takes is commitment, real leadership and the ability to make decisions for the "greater good", namely its employees. All leaders should serve the team.

I have accepted a position with CALFIRE as a Fire Captain. The pay and benefits are far superior to anything the Forest Service is offering (regardless of what the Chief says).

The good news is that I will remain working in the local area and will provide my new agency with all of my experience and corporate knowledge of geography, fire behavior, fire history and Forest Service culture, policy and procedure. I will return all property that has been issued to me prior to my effective date of resignation. I will handle the disposition of my health benefits, TSP and retirement accounts.

I personally wish you good luck and a sincere hope for the Forest Service to correct from its current downward spiral. I have enjoyed my career with the Forest Service and will treasure my friendships, memories of hard work, good times and great people.
Sincerely, -name redacted- "

Senator, please continue to press the Washington office to resolve the issues. Hundreds of my comrades are suffering from a level of work induced stress that their safety on the fireground could be compromised. The micro management from Washington, lack of support for Incident Commanders, burden shift, mission creep plus the current low employee morale is making the Forest Service a toxic work environment.

Respectfully, -name and location redacted-, California

Readers, I wish you could know what really awesome, experienced fire managers these are who have left and are leaving the FS. Some of you do know because you, like me have gotten the letters behind the scenes. I feel honored to call a number of them my friend. Ab.

www.loomishannah.com/2008_announcements.htm

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Bethany E. Loomis-Hannah

Final rule "Clarifying Prohibitions for Failure to Maintain Control of Fires that Damage National Forest System Lands".

The link to the Federal Register (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-11731.pdf) was posted on this Hotlist thread by AZ 148: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=20055

Forest Service
36 CFR Part 261
RIN 0596–AC30
Clarifying Prohibitions for Failure To
Maintain Control of Fires That Damage
National Forest System Lands
AGENCY: Forest Service, USDA.
ACTION: Notice of final rule.

SUMMARY: This final rule revises regulations to establish a new prohibition for starting and negligently failing to maintain control of a prescribed fire. Proof of criminal negligence is required for this offense. The rule also clarifies that the prohibition for causing and failing to maintain control of all other fires is a strict liability offense, not requiring proof of criminal intent. In implementing the National Fire Plan, the Forest Service has encouraged adjacent landowners to develop integrated fire management plans for the use of prescribed fire for the restoration and protection of private lands adjacent to National Forest System lands. Without these changes, adjacent landowners might be discouraged from using prescribed fire.

There's more in the pdf but I don't understand what it means.

GA Peach

"I fully disagree with the above statement."

What it was is what it was. HR decided that in their mind "Reasonable Cause/Suspicion" was a criminal arrest or having someone that was willing to testify that they had witnessed the illegal use of drugs. A drug testing program is much easier to manage. What other professional emergency management organization in the U.S. does not have a drug testing program?

I would like to clarify that I do strongly believe that there is a great potential for smaller HROs to exist in the fire organizations and I don't think you have to look hard to find them. Some engine crews, IHCs, helitack programs, jump bases, dispatch centers, overhead teams, etc. follow the HRO model and would fit into that definition. Those organizations constitute the major reason that we can do a difficult and dangerous job safely. In some cases they operate the way they do with agency support, in others they operate the way they do in spite of lack of agency support or while having to deal with agency interference. What is currently lacking is the HRO potential for a fire program at the agency level. This is because of the decentralized management of the programs and the lack of agency commitment correcting major deficiencies that are out there. The USFS was willing to take those problems on in Law Enforcement and established a stove-pipe organization that reduced local meddling in LE, but there has been no movement to correct the issues associated with fire. To the folks out there that are committed to running their programs using an HRO model, I would like to express my deepest admiration for a job well done under difficult conditions. Keep up the good work!

Tim

BDF firefighter

I'm not including the Disaster Communication News from Wrightwood CA, but we applaud their efforts to be prepared from communications on down. Practice makes perfect. Nice job, John, and the Wrightwood Communications Group. Ab.

"The bottom line on this is that no organization such as fire in a resource management agency has the potential to be a HRO."

I fully agree with your above statement, but "lessons learned" from folks heading in the right direction.... Region 5 and other areas in the past, with sound leadership and education of the goal ... have been often blindly overlooked either by intentional or unintentional cultural and personal acts or omissions (latent errors).

"When I was was a supervisor with the USFS and had an employee with a drug problem my hands were tied. HR told me he had to be arrested or that I had to observe him using drugs prior to taking any actions."

I fully disagree with the above statement. As a supervisor, you and HR should have both been aware and trained to recognize and circumvent illegal drug use affecting mission delivery. Since the early 1990's, the USDA Forest Service has had "Reasonable Cause / Suspicion" training available to supervisors. This training allowed a supervisor, with verifiable second party "cause or suspicion" to request through the "designated agency official" a drug test of a suspected employee. The FS has several drug testing authorities available (see 5/24, Lobotomy).

During the Clinton/Gore "Reinventing Government Project", the Forest Service Region 5 "crews" already had an abnormal make up as it compared to the rest of the nation... Their make up was (and is still) at the minimum:

Crews:
1 - Supervisory Forestry Technician (GS-9, Supt, 26/0); 2 - Supervisory Forestry Technicians (GS-8, Hotshot Captains, 26/0); 2 - Lead Forestry Technicians (GS-6, Squad Bosses, 18/8); 4 - Forestry Technicians (GS-5, Senior Firefighter, 13/13); and 4 - Biological Sciences Student Trainees (GS-0499-03/04, Firefighter Apprentices) assigned to each Hotshot module. These positions all had full benefits and retirement. The remainder of the crew was hired at GS-2 through GS-4 temporary (1039) appointments without benefits or retirement.

The grading and structure of the Region 5 Hotshot Crew organizational structure was challenged indirectly twice, and upheld twice by OPM and by the Agency, during two reviews of directly associated positions during the first and second "Engine Captain Reviews (Desk Audits)".

This is the same structure (although grades and titles have somewhat changed throughout the years) as has been used since I was an R-5 Hotshot in the early 80's. My past mentors and leaders set the course and direction and the love for the job I do..

I understand that other agencies, as well as other regions within the Forest Service use(d) other organizational structures for their Hotshot Crews and their engine modules in the past.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Readers, for those that dwell in the past as a land manager.... First: Recognize history, learn from it, embrace it, accept it, experience it, teach it.... and and then, Second: live in the 21st Century of communication and the rights of a Just Culture of not repeating the same latent errors again.

Keep safe and those around you safer! I know it's hard to understand....Baby steps... I've been a "supervisor" since 1990 when I first became a GS-7.... Eighteen years later.... I'm still doing the same job by choice (but now OPM decided my job rates a GS-9, albeit with another agency and another title).

Lobotomy

Supervisory Positions: www.opm.gov/fedclass/gssg.pdf
Lead Positions: www.opm.gov/fedclass/gslead.pdf

P.S. - Mark Rey (USDA-FS) = Michael Brown (DHS-FEMA). One was incompetent... one was ignorant.... Both were political appointees who never should have been put into a position of leadership and direction of a program they didn't have experience in, or fully understand. The differences between ignorant and incompetence are blurred when the incompetent one (Rey) lives on to wreak ruin.... while the ignorant one (Brown) was simply replaced by a firefighter..... go figure.

Lobotomy, Small Clarification: Maybe I didn't read one of your sentences correctly, but the "rights of a Just Culture" does not necessarily have to do with repeating (or not) the same latent errors again but with a climate of communication in which there can be lessons learned.

Here's a definition of Just Culture from James Reason in Managing the Risks of Organizational Accidents.

“A Just Culture is one in which there's an atmosphere of trust in which people are encouraged, even rewarded, for providing essential safety-related information, but in which they are also clear about where the line must be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.”

I was wondering, where are these jobs listed that have a closing date of 5/27?
I looked on USA Jobs and Avue. Have any ideas?

JG

I don't think that this administration has a corner on not having HRO potential. During the Clinton administration all of the USFS IHC Squad Leaders were changed from "Supervisory" to "Lead" as a part of Al Gore's "Reinventing Government". What this did was to allow him to claim that he had flattened organization charts through "decreasing" the number of supervisors. The bottom line on this is that no organization such as fire in a resource management agency has the potential to be a HRO. One of the fundamental characteristics of a HRO is "Deference to expertise". It would be very difficult for an agency to make a case that its fire program could become a HRO when critical decisions are consistently made by managers with no fire background, experience, or training.

Concerning drug testing, I am a believer. When I was was a supervisor with the USFS and had an employee with a drug problem my hands were tied. HR told me he had to be arrested or that I had to observe him using drugs prior to taking any actions. He was eventually dismissed because of behavioral issues, but the process was considerably less budget neutral, more emotionally draining, and more inconvenient than any drug testing program.

I think that we will eventually see a Federal wildland fire service agency. It won't be the end of politics or being a political football, but it should take firefighters out of the position of having crucial decisions made by people who can't even spell fyre. It will be a sad time, fire is a major part of the history of the USFS. The Air Force was formed when it was determined that the Army could not manage major aviation assets. We are seeing some of the same issues in the land management agencies.

Tim

Ab's bold.

Also, who are they going to get to be SMEs this time of year? Does anyone have any news on TOS, is the government buying any houses yet? Will official or unofficial job offers come in July? If it is unofficial will there be a long wait for the official offer from ASC, or are they going to try and speed it up?

If anyone knows the answers, please share - trying to plan, thanks.

Supervisory Forestry Tech

SMEs (Subject Matter Experts); TOS (Transfer of Station); ASC (Albuquerque Service Center) Ab.

Ab note: this is similar to many lists we've gotten. Thanks contributors.

Inyo National Forest R5

Mnt. Whitney RD

No FMO

No AFMO

Unable to Staff 1 T3 Engine

Missing 1 GS 7 FEO
Missing 1 GS 6 AFEO
Missing 2 GS 5 Firefighters
Missing 1 GS 8 Assistant Helicopter
Missing 2 GS 5 Senior Fire Fighters

White Mountain RD

1 T3 / Water Tender Five Days a week
Missing 2 GS 6 AFEO
Missing 3 GS 5 Senior Firefighters

1 T3 Five Days a Week
Missing 1 GS 7 FEO
Missing 2 GS 5 Senior Firefighters

T2 Crew Trying to go T1
Missing 1 GS 6 Squad Boss
Missing 3 Fully Qualified Senior Fire Fighters

Mammoth RD

1 T3 / Water Tender 7 DAYS a week
Missing 2 GS 5 Senior FF

1 T3 5 Days A week
Missing GS 8 SFEO
Missing GS 6 AFEO
Missing 1 GS 5 Senior FF

Fire USE Crew
Missing GS 7 Captain
Missing 2 GS 5 Senior Firefighters

Mono RD

1 T3 Engine 7 days a week
Missing 2 GS 5 Senior Firefighters

1 T3 Engine 0 Days A week
FEO GS 7 only position staffed (whole engine unstaffed for 3 years)

2 Fuels Battalions Unstaffed

AKA

CLICK IT or BE STUPID!

Ending the 1st week of the Seatbelt campaign (May 19-June 1). I hope all have made
a new resolution to wear seatbelts and get your friends and crewmates to wear seatbelts.

Several points:

• It's the LAW.
• Vehicle accidents account for a huge percentage of firefighter deaths each year.
• Failure to wear your seat belt may compromise your family's PSOB if you bite the
  dust before your time.
• "Set an example; model the correct behavior; get your fellow firefighters to do the
  same," as one R5 Engine captain has said.
• It's the smart thing to do and is a simple habit you can develop if you're formerly
  one of the *stupid* ones.

Tahoe Terrie

Details about the Click It or Ticket campaign can be found at:
www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.ce4a601cdfe97fc239d17110cba046a0/

read on from another source, originally from the Safety Officer Michael C. on the Shasta-T

For Your Safety, Protect Your Life, Wear Your Seat Belt:

Remember this from last year? (Ab note: hotlist thread)

When this crew buggy went off the road and rolled some 300 feet down the
slope, the crew portion separated from the chassis ... and there were NO
FATALITIES !

Amazing ? Yes !

Seat Belts ? Yes !

Seat Belts Save Lives !
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

News of the Weird?

Fake seat belt to fool police causes death of New Zealand driver
The Associated Press
Friday, February 22, 2008

WELLINGTON, New Zealand: A New Zealand driver who used a fake car seat belt to fool police was killed when it failed him in a head-on crash, local media reported Saturday.

Ivan Segedin refused to wear a seat belt while driving and had been fined 32 times in the past five years for not wearing one, a coroner's court heard Friday.

Segedin, 39, died in a crash on July 22 last year from multiple injuries when his car crossed the road and collided head-on with an oncoming vehicle on North Island, coroner Carla na Nagara said.

"Ultimately Mr. Segedin's actions in driving without a seat belt have cost him his life in an accident that he may well have survived had he worn one," the New Plymouth Daily News quoted her saying.

Though his car was fitted with seat belts, an extra belt with a long strap had been knotted above the seat belt on the driver's side, providing a belt to simply sit over the driver's shoulder, Nagara said.

This created the illusion to a passing motorist or police officer that a seat belt was being worn when it was not.

Segedin's fatal injuries were caused when he was thrown forward on to the steering wheel in a low-impact crash. No blame or responsibility for the crash rested on the other driver, Nagara noted.

Fair Use Disclaimer

Saw a report that a firefighter on the Santa Cruz area Summit Fire a
few days ago had a medical emergency from breathing poison oak
smoke. Lots of hazards that may not be apparent. Add this one to
the list.

SoCal CalFire

http://www.kcho.org/

Click Listen Live
Choose your format and listen.

I'm going to try to if I get home soon enough. Go Dean. Nice job on the book.

Ab.

My mom was a WAVE, trained at MIT and one of the first women to teach
radar to Navy men at Bremerton during WWII. She didn't see combat but did
her part. (She did see some naked men on submarines who didn't expect a
woman below decks even though they were warned...)

My dad was captain of a ship in the Pacific during WWII. I remember as
a little kid awakening to him screaming from a "bad dream". My mom told
me he was dreaming that time about a kamikaze attack on his ship. There
were other dreams and strange moments. He came home physically whole
from that war, but it took him many years for the dreams and flashbacks to
diminish. He was lucky that he got through it and carried on. Fine man...

My love especially to those vets (and firefighters) who pay the "hidden price"
for our freedom, safety and security.

Be Safe.

Mellie

On this Memorial Day, my feelings run a bit deeper for the appreciation of the man I called "dad". It also makes me reflect on the other veterans who may have packed away that part of their life, for reasons known only to them. I raise a toast in your honor, for your service and sacrifice.

To the ones we have lost and those still with us... THANK YOU!

Sincerely,
Tom Stein

But I do not agree that our mission is different, what is our mission? Isn't it the Protection of life and property? and if so is that not the same as every other fire dept. in the US. They protect the states, the cities or counties interests and we protect the federal interests. So some one tell me what is the difference?

We must remember that we are and always will be PUBLIC SERVANTS. The public is who I serve, and I will do it with pride no matter what color engine I drive.

PS GOD BLESS OUR SOLDIERS.

smokeater

I want to extend a heartfelt "Thank You" to those men and women who have
made the ultimate sacrifice for my freedoms. I would also like to thank those
who have served continue to serve today, as well as their families, who sacrifice
more than we'll ever know.

I also want to thank the families of our fallen brothers and sisters, today. We
are thinking of you today and everyday.

I looked into my baby boy's eyes this morning, and even though he can't talk
yet, I knew what he was trying to say: "Come home safe, Dad. Come home safe."

And he meant ALL of us.

-StumpShot

Stump Shot, I would add to your thank you for the "ultimate sacrifice", a thank you to the warriors and fire warriors who have come home from an engagement scarred physically or psychologically. It's hard to continue to love and support those who have flashbacks, PTSD, erratic behavior, anger or pain management issues or who are dealing with missing limbs or other body parts. As individuals and as a society we need to do that. Good treatment. They have done us great service whether as wildland firefighter or as military warrior. Thank you. Ab.

Misery Whip

Rattlesnake bite victims showing extreme symptoms
Amanda Lee Myers, Associated Press
Sunday, May 25, 2008

www.redding.com/news/2008/may/25/rattlesnake-bite-victims-showing-extreme-symptoms/

The potentially deadly symptoms used to be fairly rare, but toxicologists in Arizona, Colorado and California say they're seeing some or all of them more than ever, and that they could be contributing to an increase in fatal rattlesnake bites in Arizona. more at link, interesting...

I was wondering if you could pass on a sincere thanks to the writer of the
reply to Smoke's Post. That was extremely well written and expresses what
most all of us think and feel. Thank you.

JG

That was from the poster "Never Forget Black Tuesday". I added that post to the Documents Worth Reading archives. Ab.

The Never Forget Black Tuesday poster said what i said, with much better explanation.

Thank You.

I would like to tell you and everybody else a little of my story. If it's long, i apologize.

I grew up chasing the sounds of sirens when i was a kid. Every time i heard them, i was dashing out the front door with my fingers crossed hoping it was a Wildland Firetruck. I used to make my Dad drive as close to the smoke i saw without getting us in any trouble or danger. You should have seen my first year with the new scanner. I always looked for the big Green trucks with the bright lights. I knew about the Red ones, but man, the Green ones were always the attention grabbers. When i was a Junior in High School i joined the CA Army National Gaurd, i wanted some extra cash LOL. At the age of 18, right after my Senior year i applied for CDF. We had a family buddy who was a Battalion Chief, so i kind of got the hookup. No, it wasn't the Green Trucks, but it was Firefighting. I had already done a year in the Gaurd with Seven left. I loved firefighting, but honestly at the time i don't think i was at the right maturity level yet. With Seven Guard years left, i switched to Active Duty Army. I enjoyed my Ten years in the Service. While in the Service, i got alot of training completed EMT, more firefighting qualifications, Honor, Courage, and the most important thing i got out of it, Leadership Skills.

Now i have the dream job of working on a Green Truck, but i am not feeling the excitement i did when i was Ten and running out the door to see them Code 3 responding to a fire. I am hoping this will all change. I would love to put together the Leadership Skills i received in the Service with the Firefighting Knowledge i have gained and give it to the younger guys. This is why i am Green and will always be Green. CALFIRE can have their 72 hour straights and their overtime. They have a different mission than the FS.

I feel I am a part of the greatest fire organization in the Nation. I will always have Smokey's back. I believe the combined agency is a great idea, but i know it will take a long time before that happens. I am going to stick with the situation at hand, and that is to protect the lives and property of this Nation from catastrophic fire. This season is already starting off HOT and its not going to stop anytime soon.

Everybody Stay Safe

SMOKE

"The drug testing of Public Safety (think firefighters) should be a no-brainer. I have always thought all appointed firefighters should be cross trained to drive an R5 engine at a moments notice. Getting everyone on the CDL program may not be budget neutral but all driving employees should have a CDL to facilitate their options for advancement. This would subject all to the CDL random drug testing that presently only the engine folks are subjected too. I suspect many engine folks would love to see this condition of employment extend to all in the FF community. It only makes sense. A pre employment test is just that. A person dries out, gets hired and then is free to go about their previous behavior."

It's not just that simple in the USFS to do that. According to the NFFE union, just possessing a CDL does not automatically place you in a tested position. The union has been clear that incidental drivers of Class B vehicles sre not in the testing pool. Only positions with driving Class B vehicles as a PRIMARY duty are supposed to be tested. Yes, a lot of units look the other way at this ruling, to test all their employees, but that does not meet the requirements of the NFFE. A letter explaining this circulated around the country 2 years ago, maybe it's time to dust it off and circulate it again..

-MJ

Terrific post. Ab.

In reality, the tern "ignorant" is a positive way to factually explain the paths our Line Officers have taken the Forest Service fire program towards..... "They know not what they lead".

Merriam-Websters definition of "ignorance":

Main Entry:
ig·no·rant Listen to the pronunciation of ignorant
Pronunciation:
\' ig-n(?-)r?nt\
Function:
adjective
Date:
14th century

1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society> ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence < ignorant errors> 2 : unaware, uninformed
- ig·no·rant·ly adverb
- ig·no·rant·ness noun

This is addressed as though you are going to be moving into a seasonal firefighter position.
I too left the USFS, after 13 years, for CDF (in 1987- aack! 21 years ago!) and can offer some insight into the two organizations.

First and foremost, the "corporate culture", for better or worse, is very different between the red army and the green army. Since the CalFire mission is almost completely dedicated to private land protection, the notion of "fire management" is foreign to most of the work force. Fires are put out with lots of equipment, etc. Even after 20 years, this policy rankles me a bit, having seen some of the damage that industrialized fire suppression puts on the land. However, it's not our call, being private land and all.

Secondly, CalFire stresses the hierarchy of command, with an emphasis on referring to chiefs as "Chief", etc. Some are quite comfortable with a first name basis. Again, this is not a judgment on the organization; it's the way it is. And you're expected to wear a uniform most all of the time, even in fire camp. You've probably noticed that.

Firefighters are expected to do all the cleanup and maintenance at the station, and the engines don't leave the station to do projects, as we did back in the day. A good engine captain will put a lot of time into training his/her crew every day. Days off can be cancelled at any time, and you don't go home at night. On the other hand, ordinarily, you work 3 days a week and have four off, with 19 hours of guaranteed OT per week. Don't even ask how the OT is calculated.

Just as with any organization, the personalities involved are what make the crew and station life work well. Most stations are comfortable but spartan. Some are in nice locations, some aren't (not quite the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from there). Some stations have specialized training opportunities dependent on their location. Meals are as good as the firefighters make them, and the cost runs around 2.00-2.50, usually. Again, hard to explain.

And finally, yes, the pay is great, especially for the amount of time you actually put into the job. And, if you stick with it, the benefits and retirement are exceptional.

It's a bit of a longwinded post, sorry about that. I don't regret the move, but I don't engage in the agency bashing so common elsewhere. I work at a camp, and out of the ten captains there, five are FS transfers. Good stories all around. If you want more detailed info, Ab can forward my email address.

Tool Pusher

After 35 years of "been there and done that" I have no
regrets.

the old ranger

NOW, it is a possibility. It has strength of numbers behind it. The old school holdouts are retiring, or can't afford the liability insurance (dig at pay rates, dig at current legal environment). But in all reality, the individuals who fight to keep the Federal Wildland Firefighting Agency from existing, they are on their way out. Next 5-10 years, no old schoolers will be left in positions of power. Congress is starting to realize that the ones they normally talk to and get their information from are either woefully ignorant or blatant liars. Your one separate agency idea is a good one, and it’s a future reality. Read the last 3 years worth of posts (if you have time that is), you will find you are in the majority.

Don't take life seriously, it isn't permanent

Regardless of the philosophical or logical arguments on drug testing, the devil is certainly in the details. With all the difficulties getting people cleared by CHS (for some regions), hired, paid, housed, trained, and the reams of redundant paperwork such as yearly background checks for temporaries completed, I’m personally not enthusiastic about more administrative actions until we clean up the mess we already have.

Drug testing is logistically complex with time sensitive testing kits and potentially long travel times to medical appointments from remote stations. It is also very difficult to manage during fire season, and is certainly not “budget neutral.” If we move the fire workforce to all PSE 13:13 appointments (yeah right!), I’m all for drug testing. So long as we continue to misuse 1039 appointments, it’s just one more headache on top of all the other headaches we already have. I have many years of experience with the CDL testing, and I'm not convinced we could handle the entire workforce. Let's say for example, you hire three new temporaries for a crew. One new hire fails a drug test the week before training starts (I assume the testing will be linked to the pre-employment CHS screening). Do they have appeal rights if they are not yet hired? Could you realistically backfill that position before fire season was over? And how do you effectively complete the replacement's training in the middle of the season? And what will be taken off my plate to make room for drug testing? At a certain point, we just can't do more with less.

The Forest Service has a terrible track record of implementing policies with no clear idea or consideration of the impacts on the field (Empower, 401, ASC, Aglearn, etc.). Let’s not have another fine abstract idea from an office of permanent employees that causes a host of new problems because we don’t have the capacity to administer it properly.

Donkey

What about all FS, BLM, and NPS joining as one fire suppression agency? The National Fire Agency? This way USDA, DOI, and NPS can still have their agencies and not have to worry about their fire programs. I think budget wise, this would make a great idea. It seems like guys are switching too much, quitting, retiring, or not having the passion for the job they once loved. With one fire suppression agency, this would allow congress to give a huge budget, allow for more jobs for new interested people wanting to join this field of work, and allow the fire suppression leaders to be leaders again. I think this will open alot more positions in both the higher and lower end of the ladder. Having one agency will probably save congress alot more money since all the agencies will be one. Plus, i think this will save alot more headaches.

This is just an idea. Please, let me know what you all think.

Have an exciting and safe season.

SMOKE

What exactly is the STRUCTURE that the aviation folks settled on for their High Reliability Organization (HRO) after the fatalities that turned their heads, their culture, their organization around, that galvanized them to action? Did they continue with their same conceptual structure or did they reinvent themselves? What did they change or add?

Let's pretend we're going to create a firefighting HRO that has firefighter safety as paramount. What would we need conceptually?

Need to manage risk (LCES, fire behavior, human factors, have a plan or a variety of plans for this)

Need to create a safety culture, in which just culture with lessons learned are the status quo (tools for that are that happening now); need security when learning from and sharing with each other; freedom from fear of criminal prosecution for no good reason; freedom from fear of self-incrimination in sharing and exploring experiences.

Need a feedback loop to change and grow the organization and the people in it; a way to see if your HRO/safety system is working as planned, at the organizational level, like theysaid gives feedback from the ground (especially when it's not working), collects data, also safecoms, investigations when necessary; a way to change the system when it's not working or to make it more efficient for safety sake (different than efficiency for $$ sake).

Anything else you can think of? What did those fly boys come up with?

Anything for recommended reading, Misery Whip?

Mellie

The drug testing of Public Safety (think firefighters) should be a no-brainer. I have always thought all appointed firefighters should be cross trained to drive an R5 engine at a moments notice. Getting everyone on the CDL program may not be budget neutral but all driving employees should have a CDL to facilitate their options for advancement. This would subject all to the CDL random drug testing that presently only the engine folks are subjected too. I suspect many engine folks would love to see this condition of employment extend to all in the FF community. It only makes sense. A pre employment test is just that. A person dries out, gets hired and then is free to go about their previous behavior.

Fish 01

CDL = Commercial Drivers License

Noname 51

Mark Rey will tell you he didn't inhale. haw haw. Ab.

Glad it was a success. Ab.

Originally from Michael Cobbold, Safety Officer on the Shasta T and Mendocino.

Imagine you didn't use your truck for a while during the season when nests
are being built....

(Paper wasps nest picture)

You might want to think this might happen in buildings, or on tools,
materials that have not been used or moved since last year.

And make sure that you flag the danger until it can be addressed...

(Warning picture)

More on Bees, Stinging Insects, Allergic Reactions,... - - - > See
attached file: Bees-YellowJackets - Stings and Safety.doc (45 K doc file)

Michael Cobbold
Safety Officer
Shasta-Trinity and Mendocino National Forests

Utah Rattlers 1
Utah Rattlers 2
Utah Rattlers 3
Utah Rattlers 4
Utah Rattlers 5

Originally sent out by Jeff Fenton/EYEO/NV/BLM/DOI

Guns n Hoses

Forest Service Partnership Council Briefing Paper:
Drug Testing for Forest Service Firefighters (78 K doc file)

On Wednesday he got a report of a broken water piper flowing water across roads at Los Prietos. He was working a project in Piru Ca. He was instructed to drive the 33.5 miles from Piru to Ojai in a gov. vehicle, pick up his personal vehicle, drive to Goleta (S.O. where the Santa Barbara engineer vehicle sits) @ 50 miles, than drive this gov. vehicle to Los Prietos, @ 19 miles, to do the work. Once finished he could return to Goleta and drive his pov home. All this because our "leadership" feels that he would be benefiting himself by not using his personal vehicle (even during work hours). They are now in the process of creating another committee consisting of 2 line officers and 2 fire staff to chair the vehicle issue. How much labor and time we have spent on this issue is ridiculous. I think we should start another committee to study the cost and time spent on this one issue. Its a wonder we can ever get anything accomplished.

LM

Nancy

That's Dean Talley, AirTanker pilot, and he wrote a very good book: Flyboys Risky Business Ab.

Shall we guess what the other 4 uses of the sausage McMuffins were besides eating? or did the advice follow that incident? haw haw Ab.

It's easy to rely on Doctrine when those who are on the receiving end of a "Commander's Intent" have the experience to make good tactical choices for those on the ground. I hate to say it, but "Commander's Intent" expressed to inexperienced "troops" is a recipe for disaster. Speaking as a stress psychologist, most well-functioning human beings that have some experience but lack critical experience in a certain area, tend to over-estimate their ability to handle a given situation. Unless clinically depressed, we humans think well of ourselves and our experience.

Are we setting our fire forces up for failure ... and then blame?

For the sake of firefighter safety, I think that FIRE needs to be taken out from under the FS umbrella or given a parallel status with its own budget. Firefighter management, groundpounder training, experience, focus, safety is simply not right any longer in this day of huge interface, fuel loading, drought and bug kill, potential global warming and budgets that catch the FS money managers between managing the natural resources of the country and fighting fire on the interface. It's not the line officers fault. They're doing the best they can, and not knowing fire as an experienced wildland firefighter does, they think they're doing a good job or the best they can do under the circumstances...

When someone dies or is burned or burned over, the structure of the decentralized FS/fire system is at fault, each person involved at the forest level can write it off as "NOT MY FAULT". Each person involved at the Regional level can write it off as "NOT MY FAULT". Each person involved at the Boise WO deputy FAM Chief, FAM Chief, PIO, even the "risk management" levels can write it off as "NOT MY FAULT".

I submit there is collective FAULT for the next thing that goes wrong! At the "least fault of all" will be the groundpounder who made the best choices they could given

• their training (lacking in fire behavior, lacking human factors knowledge and lacking actual practice in refusing an assignment);
• their supervision with mid-level managers leaving;
• their line officer's understanding of fire and firefighting;
• the fed bean counters who may or may not know fire but are out there pressuring the system to do what needs doing with less;
• a SYSTEM that is not streamlined and focused at keeping them as safe and knowledgeably determining their own fate as they could be.

Sign me up for Congress or to talk with Feinstein or whatever needs to be done. I don't want to deal with reporters (except maybe JP).

Mellie

CA-SCU-Summit Fire
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=19661

Thanks to the Mods, especially the new one -- Mod-Blue -- who is doing duty while SCR (Mod-Red) is recovering from surgery. Get well soon Mod-Red. Ab.

Please contribute to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation if you haven't already done so. (52 Club link "buck a week to help a buddy") Our WFFoundation is there for support of our firefighters and our families IMMEDIATELY when the unthinkable and unspeakable happens. The govt can't do it. Usually people are in shock and need support. We provide it by supporting the Foundation with our buck a week to help a buddy. Good grief, we toss $ in a boot. This is an important funnel for our support ahead of time, our own insurance policy.

Ken Kempter just sent in this link again as he periodically does. Thanks Ken. It's a great reminder.

If you can watch this clip now, you should. If not, make a note and watch it later. Some of these people in it I've never met in person, some I have. Most have posted here at some time or other. They are part of this community. They're doing their share to contribute in all ways they can. They make a difference. It's good to see their faces. Thank you all! Ab.

http://flashovertv.firerescue1.com/Clip.aspx?key=F1246C519EF3C93B

Mission, now this part is a fantastic slap in the face. Talking to a recently graduated apprentice the regional “leadership” stated in a speech to the class that the USFS needs to refocus its mission. They were not hired to do the job of the guys on the big red trucks; they were hired to work in the forest. If they wanted to be firefighters they were in the wrong job. Ironically to me, if the mission were realistic the pay issue would largely go away. If our position descriptions were truthful we would be getting compensated for the job we were doing, not the job the agencies say we are doing.

It is claimed this “mission creep” is just a SoCal thing, funny their own Firestars proved that wrong (when it was working). The Shasta Trinity gave many of the southern forests a good run for “all risk” responses. I’m sure other northern forests would have as well if they had done better reporting. Funny thing with this job, we get to actually go to these “other” places that “prove” SoCal is an anomaly. I have yet to go to one and find the urban interface, affordable housing and “all risk” responses are not a concern to the crews there. I’ve talked to engine crews in Region 3 and Region 6 that only wish they had the support for the SCBA and medical equipment you find in R5. They need it, they respond to calls that require it but mentioning it is a good way to get the door slammed in their face. In some of the National Parks wildland crews cross staff rescue trucks, hazmat trucks and structure engines, but they don’t receive any additional compensation and are still “forestry techs”. Several of the National Park helitack crews have a strong “all risk” component doing as much search & rescue, medical evacuation and law enforcement work as they do fire, but they still operate with the same “National” helitack pd. A few weeks ago, there was a link to a nice story about a couple of Yosemite NP helitack guys getting a valor award. Not to take away from them, as they deserve the recognition, but activities like that happen many times each summer with NPS helitack crews in the larger parks.

If you look at the PDs for the 0081 firefighter series you will see the difference. Firefighter (just plain sitting backwards firefighter, fighting fires and no other duties) rates a GS5, when medical or hazmat duties are added it goes up. First responder medical OR Hazmat first responder operations (both of which are appropriate to wildland firefighters where ever they work and required of USFS apprentices) rate a GS6, raising the medical requirement to Emergency Medical Technician raises the position to GS7. Instead of a temporary workforce based on the GS3 and 4 we should have a seasonal career organization based on GS6 or 7s. Captains in the 0081 series are rating as GS9s and 10s in many locations and having worked in both systems I know for a fact the wildland GS7 and GS8 captains have far more responsibility in the day to day operation of the organization.

How many higher level employees, AFEOs, Engineers, Captains, AFMOs are doing work at the GS9, 10, 11 levels they are not credited for in their PD? OPM can’t provide an appropriate GS grade for the position when 30-40% of our job is “other duties as assigned”.

So that is structure fire (which often also has a large wildland component, just ask the guys at Camp Pendleton or Ft Hunter Liggett).

Law Enforcement in the land management agencies now have GS9 positions as their primary operational position (frequently flown 5/7/9). These also receive special law enforcement pay rates pushing them well above a comparable fire GS9 position.

It couldn’t have anything to do with the fact these positions are in a job series specific to them now could it? I know for a fact that the land management agencies have more wildland firefighters than the Department of Defense has structure firefighters and also more than the land management agencies employ in law enforcement. The land management agencies don’t use the 0083 Police Officer series; they have a law enforcement series specific to land management agencies. How is it that the wildland firefighter doesn’t rate a series when there are many more?

How about some simple recognition, law enforcement in each of the agencies use their own badge, patch and vehicle marking unique to law enforcement. Why is it when fire tries to do something like this we are being divisive?

Some people call us whiners, say we knew we wouldn’t become rich, but it’s a lot more than that. I’m tired of feeling the need to encourage my subordinates to look elsewhere for a career. I’ve made my choices, but I can not in good faith encourage a temporary employee to make a career as a Federal wildland firefighter, I do all I can to get them training and experience so they can go work for CDF, or a city / county fire department. I would love to be able to tell young eager kids that yes; this is the place to make a career.

Thanks Casey, I appreciate all you do for my measly $10 a Pay Period.

Getting tired in R5 (no not Socal) and its only May.

Basic requirements are 8 inch leather, lacing style boots with non skid lug soles. No steel toes. That about it. Having said that you will find as many opinions on boots among forestry.. err.. Wildland Firefighters! as their favorite beers. The really important thing is fit. Sore feet will case you more grief than just about anything else on a fire assignment. A better built boot will cost more, but because they can often be rebuilt at 1/2 the cost and be like new again the cost evens out.

My career boot track went from a department store work boot meeting the basic requirement which got me through my first two years to the more elaborate 12 inch high Whites brand. Now that I am retired and do AD non line assignments I am looking at the La sportiva style hiking boot which I was told in a recent refresher is approved by the R-5 Fire Management.
Good luck and I strongly urge you to consider Casey's invitation to join the FWFSA

Fish01

I agree, excellent investment. Ab.

Thank You....

J. D.

What to take: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/faq.htm#what6

Readers, basic boot standards?
One question that often comes up is Do they meet the 8" standard? With some lighter weight alpine boots this is harder to meet for women than men.

There are threads on boots here, although I don't think they cover standards:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1867
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=807
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=2637

Followed by some interesting comments and observations: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4392

www.sbsun.com/ci_9329007

Staffing for fires worries senator
Vacancies stir Feinstein to rip Forest Service

Jason Pesick, Staff Writer
Article Launched: 05/20/2008 11:08:51 PM PDT

Sen. Dianne Feinstein is concerned the U.S. Forest Service has too many firefighter vacancies heading into the fire season.

A letter to Feinstein from Mark Rey, the U.S. Department of Agriculture undersecretary who oversees the Forest Service, shows that there are 363 vacancies in Southern California out of 4,432 positions.

Feinstein, D-Calif., said she is concerned that many of the vacancies are among midlevel firefighters.

"These are key fire leadership positions. Without them, some fire engines might sit idle just when they're needed most. This is unacceptable. We simply cannot afford anything less than a fully staffed firefighting corps in California," she said in a statement.

Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, said that Rey, in his letter, backed off from an April 1 commitment to Feinstein that all positions would be staffed in time for the start of the state's fire season.

"I want to reiterate that we feel ... we have the resources to meet our firefighting mission this year," said Jason Kirchner, a spokesman for the Forest Service's California region.

"Our intention is to fill every single position that we can. But what's more important ... is understanding that we staff our positions to ensure that we can fulfill our mission," he said.

"There's always a certain amount of positions that will go unfilled."

Judd and Robert Ethridge, president of the local chapter of the National Federation of Federal Employees for the San Bernardino and Angeles national forests, questioned the accuracy of Rey's vacancy numbers.

"What it appears that he has done is lower the staffing numbers to make that vacancy number look lower," Ethridge said.

(more at the link)

fair use disclaimer

"For this reason San Bernardino National Forest Fire & Aviation Management continues to request a Peer Review to be conducted by a small group of individuals with the kind extensive, in depth background dealing with late season, Santa Ana wind driven fires in the Southern California Wildland Urban interface/intermix. The Peer Review process is a foundational, core component of Fire Suppression Doctrine and needs to be utilized for what it is intended. Gaining understanding why fire ground decisions were made, and what can be learned from this. The report as is, unfortunately misleads the reader, and will likely give firefighters reviewing it a false sense of security by thinking they are not making the same decisions, when all the while they may be following the same path. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, the Line Officers without FIRE EXPERIENCE are more qualified (Tongue in Cheek) to comment on agency concerns and direction... First step towards firefighter safety... 1) deny a Regional Forester who is a Soil Scientist (not a wildland firefighter) from ever serving as a CO-LEAD INVESTIGATOR in a flawed investigation of wildland firefighter deaths.

So, does Foundational Doctrine mean anything? Right now, the actions of the Forest Service, once again, scream of lessons not learned,

The CDF folks on the road trip "to keep folks safer" should give it a break for awhile. From a federal employee to a state employee who has been there and done that.

Anonymous

I'll try to be discrete... On the Forest that I work for (initials L.P.) decisions and actions at the Forest Supervisor level are creating a work environment that is driving away Firefighters.

Example: Home to Work Vehicle Usage (AD-728) requests for Duty Officers are still under review. The Forest Supervisor is using her discretionary authority to determine if it is in her interest to have Duty Officers or Fire resources respond to after hours incidents. There will be a group assembled to determine if she even has a need for Duty Officers at all. The requests from her line officers (District Rangers) are falling on opinionated and deaf ears. Fire Staff recommendations are being scrutinized, minimized, and muted.

What this type of environment is doing is driving away the high level professionals that have a desire to serve the public to the best of their ability.
Why would a Firefighter want to work for an employer that does not fight fire?
Tenured Firefighters and Fire Managers are disgusted at the lack of support and disregard for professional input. Up and coming employees are looking at this example as a warning sign that says "Watch out!... mismanagement ahead!"

Should Forests operate independently on fire suppression and fire organizational decisions?
It seems like there should be some sort of consistency within a Region.
Wasn't that the intent of Randy Moore's policy in the first place?

What tha--- ?

But, I will speak to only one. The “Factual Report” is anything but, how this happened
is open to debate, but the Captains that were closest to the tragedy have gone on
record as to the flaws in the report.

So, when folks go to Rancho Cucamonga for a lessons learned session they do not
have any real basis from which to learn lessons. They have an inaccurate report and a
power point presentation that bolsters the falsehoods in the report. While these folks may
be well meaning (I doubt that) they are doing a great disservice to the fire community.

You cannot learn lessons from inaccurate information!

The current Regional Forester (and co-lead on the report) is aware of the analysis of the
report by the captains, yet he has opted not to act on the information. Therefore, he is
as much to blame for this travesty as the two CAL FIRE employees that continue their
irresponsible tour of untruths.

Yes, we all want lessons learned, but they need to be factual.

“Not happy with CAL FIRE or USFS”

Several that have heard/seen the presentation have said it sounds good and seems to address issues that could keep firefighters safe. The maps and the GIS are pretty sweet. It's really too bad it doesn't have all the facts right. Ab.

NoName

Hopefully with the different investigative tools that have recently been developed (From AAR to SAI) and Risk Management's and Fire Safety Officer and firefighter focus on Just Culture, some of the apprehensions will be laid to rest. A lot of the disquiet stems from Cramer and 30mile legal injustices re criminalization of decision making under stress and the way the DOJ jumped in. Some of the best minds of the FS are working on FLA and APA alternatives. I firmly believe we'll get through this time of no legal precedents to a more sane working environment. Ab.

Regarding the CHS physicals, what happens if a PFT or PSE USFS forestry tech cannot
pass a CHS provided wildland firefighter physical (for whatever reason) and does not
have $$ to go to personal provider for a wavier?? Some of us are in that boat.

CALFIRE Esperanza Presentation: They are trying to provide lessons learned, to further
knowledge. Hats off to them. Be a student of fire, not a student of liability.

Re: Black Tuesday Wristbands, Where do I get one?

DMC

Click the Black Tuesday wristband link above right. Ab.

I don't normally chime out to anything unless it's something that I know about. On-The-Spot drug testing is, and will always be in contest, simply because of the nature and setting of the test itself. I've stood in many a line that required one to piss in a cup, and have the construction Mgr. drop a slip of paper in, to judge who you really are. Not being tested in a "clinical" setting leaves a lot of room for debate. The tester, is not a forensic chemist, therefore, that alone dismisses the test as invalid. Cross-contamination and altered "evidence" are typical for this setting. If we like you, you're clean.... if not, you're dirty. Simple as that.

During one such "on-site" test -- being an EMT-I -- I questioned the method of testing at hand. I was told that the site super was God and there were to be no questions asked. Being the person I am, I asked where he got his medical degree and exactly how he arrived at his final conclusions. I was dismissed immediately. Seems that some people have the "I Am God" syndrome and there is nothing else that needs to be said.

I trust a clinical setting 40% of the time. Most lab techs are under-paid and could care less about the truth. Case in point. I was prescribed Welbutrin for a time for depression. Because of an "on-the-job" injury, I was let go as showing positive for amphetamines. When I produced proof of the prescription, I was told that it didn't matter... I was dirty and that was the end of that. Imagine, taking meds given by your DR and not being able to work!

The years before and after, I have taken many drug screens... every one of them clean, every one of them in a CLINIC, not in a coffee cup, in the porta-potti, by the foreman's trailer. My point is, on the spot testing is at best a hint. To get to the fact of the matter takes a professional, in a lab.... NOT IN THE SUPERVISOR"S TRAILER!

There are many things that will throw off a simple drug screen. Over the counter meds for allergies will do it in a heartbeat. I know. Certain aftershaves will show you as "drunk". Your breakfast will prove you to be a heroine addict, forget about what MythBusters claimed.

In this day and age, a world of "witch-hunts", we are all targets of our own making. Be careful of what you choose and how you apply it. These "false-readings" are a hard fight in court, but can be won... armed with the right knowledge. I DO NOT... IN ANY WAY OR FORM, suggest that if one is in fact dirty, you should fight the clinical setting... you'll loose in the end anyway. However, if you were termed "dirty" and you are honest about your intentions, fight it for all that it's worth. You may not get the job but at least your good name will be clear!

TS

Except some of the "facts" they're sharing are not correct, and because of the ongoing investigations, those points cannot be corrected at this time. Ab.

Perhaps the two CalFire firefighters who are presenting should consult a lawyer that
really knows about Title 18 and Title 7 of USC and the perceived "state immunity".
I'm not even sure the CalFire lawyers know enough. So much of this is new territory.

Unfortunately, TALKING creates DATA which can then be scrutinized by the legal system
if someone wishes. I don't know where the two CalFire firefighters who are making
presentations fit into the Esperanza tragedy, but until all the legal ramifications are
sorted, unknowing people can get sucked in, even if it's by some lawyer not wanting an
ongoing investigation to be compromised.

This isn't about First Amendment rights of Free Speech, but about presenters with the
best of intentions needing to know enough to be sure they're protecting themselves.

Why not wait for lessons learned through a Legislatively Protected Peer Review Process?

Mellie

When i was working for USFWS. I took the physical in Jan 2003. I thought that i was cleared to fight fires for that year. Well in Aug of that year I get a letter in the mail from CHS. They said that I was not cleared to fight fire for that fire season. The reason was the Dr office that I did my physical with failed to do a eye test on me. So I had to call and then set up appointment with my eye doctor. Then have them fax it in. I was finally cleared like in oct. We always take the physicals in Jan.

This year was about as bad. I got picked to take the full physical. Like the first one we took when they came up with using CHS. My FMO told me that they do that sometimes.

You are all right we need to come up with something better.

johnivan

http://rimoftheworld.net/columns/neufeld/old

Old Fire Suspect Not Yet Identified (Update)

Authorities Say Suspect Secure

By Michael P. Neufeld
Saturday, May 17, 2008

Update — Saturday, 4:00 a.m.

San Bernardino, CA – Officials remain tight-lipped about the identity of the person of interest in the Old Fire arson investigation but assure the public the individual won't be setting any more fires.

Authorities contend the investigation is ongoing, as it has since the 2003 Old Fire, and that the person of interest is secure. When asked if the person was in custody countless law enforcement representatives declined to provide additional information. (Interesting article with interesting pictures...)

- Rookie4485

- the unintended consequence of highly qualified firefighters losing their jobs or being
offered non-fire jobs
- a program manager who refuses to answer questions about the program he is
supposed to be managing - or will just hang up on you, instead
- a group of vastly unqualified and incompetent individuals (read: CHS) with regards to
medical procedure and policy - yes, that is what they were hired, and are paid vast
sums of money, for
- at least several subcontractors to CHS who don't give a rat's a$$ about anything more
than filing people through office so they can claim their checks

AND... you have a very poorly executed, great idea. I am sure you can think of at least a couple of those "great on paper..." ideas that never made it off the ground.

Maybe the program manager is better equipped to do his job now. Maybe CHS has worked out the bugs. Maybe the system runs more smoothly now.

Doesn't sound like it though...

-StumpShot

Is this your first season with CHS? If it is, trust me, you are not the first to come up with
problems and issues with their system (or the last ones). We have the same problems
every year and then we add a couple new ones as well. For us the baseline is only required
for perms and career seasonals. For Temp seasonals only an annual is required. Also, we
can hire someone if they have a current physical from another agency. About 50% of our
folks have no problems, then 25% get scheduling issues that include the wrong location
among others, and then there is the serious stuff. We had a guy with minor hearing loss; it
took 2-1/2 months to get an accommodation even though they told us 95% of all hearing
issues get accommodations. Then one of our folks was sent a letter by CHS to see his
doctor immediately due to a major organ failure. Yeah, that was not a lot of fun to deal
with; really freaked the employee out for a couple weeks while they saw their doctor and
waited for additional test results. Turns out the CHS tests were faulty. We even had a
problem with passwords; turns out that if you include certain characters in your password
it causes their system to not print any of the exam paperwork. It took them 2 years to
figure that one out and I think they still haven’t added a warning to their page when creating
a password.

I like the idea of the CHS concept but the implementation has been a bit bumpy. Overall
all of us firefighters will benefit from it.

BLMboy

California-MayReviseEmergencyResponse051408.pdf (47 K pdf file)

Could you find out if the Mike Schweitzer, that was killed in the
vehicle accident was a former employee on the Shawnee National
Forest as well.

TT

I sent a personal note to one of the people on Mike's forest. Ab.

Here's his reply 5/17:

That is correct, He did work on the Shawnee NF around 2002 - 2003. (I
don't know how long, just looking at my personnel folder records) I do
know he was a Shawnee employee when we promoted him to the Salmon River
Hotshots.

Thanks for the "Posting"............................... The family has set
up a service in Ashland, OR. on Monday at 1500 hrs. let me know if you
need additional info. Its such a shock for this District to have Shawn
Woodman last year, and now Mike this year. Both Excellent individuals and
just going home after work. Thanks again for CONTACTING me direct. That's
the great thing about "Wildland Fire. Com" You folks do an excellent
service to the wildland Firefighter community.

Mike

and a followup just popped in:

Cards and Notes to Mike's Family can be sent to his wife Lea - -
Lea Schweitzer
228 Talent Avenue #16
Talent, OR 97540

Mike's funeral will be in Ashland, Oregon, on Monday at 3:00 pm, at the
First United Methodist Church
165 N Main St,
Ashland, OR
(541) 482-3647

and the Memorial Flyer: In Honor of Michael J. Schweitzer.pdf

2008 Fire Operations Key Points
Executive Summary for AC/IC
April 4, 2008

Background: As fire seasons lengthen and generally become more challenging, the standard messages to the public and news media are becoming less realistic. For years, messages have centered on slight variations of several basic themes: We have enough equipment and personnel; we will protect your home if it is threatened; and we will fight all fires aggressively. But the nature of fire season is changing, and given budget realities, it is time to alter public expectations and increase public education regarding what the wildland fire community can and cannot do.

Themes for 2008

• The world of fire suppression is changing. Fire seasons are longer and fire behavior often more extreme. The primary reasons for these changes are weather (climate change), wood (abundance of fuels) and WUI (structures and increased values at risk).

• Traditional means of containing fires (anchor, flank and pinch) are changing. More often, firefighters use multiple tactics on a single incident such as confine, contain and provide point protection. Under the Interagency Wildland Fire Policy, fire managers have available a full range of options from monitoring a fire to aggressive suppression tactics.

• Determining the available fire management options include these considerations:

• Safety is always the primary concern in choosing a selected strategy and incorporates mitigated or reduced risk to firefighters and the public.
• Suppressing a fire effectively means we wisely pick our tactics. Incident managers constantly evaluate the fire situation and initiate actions based on the likelihood that the selected suppression tactics will be successful.
• Suppressing a fire efficiently means no wasted efforts. Firefighting resources are used where they are needed most and where they are most likely to succeed.

• We will focus resources into initial attack. Catching fires early is still the best way to prevent large, costly and dangerous wildfires.

• Three excellent sources on techniques for homeowners to help protect their property from wildfire can be found at: www.firewise.org, www.livingwithfire.info, and www.firesafecouncil.org. Homeowners must not assume firefighters will step in and save their homes, especially if they have not taken precautionary measures.

• Steps to reduce costs and maximize efficiency without compromising safety will continue to be a priority. Challenges to reducing costs include longer seasons, increased complexity of incidents, more WUI fires and a rise in contract and fixed costs.

Communities:
• Local communities and citizens can contribute to firefighter and public safety and protect their belongings by taking responsibility to ensure there is a defensible space around their homes and businesses. The Firewise program provides information and techniques for homeowners. Community Wildfire Protection Plans (CWPPs) are becoming increasingly important for coordinating these efforts.
• The primary responsibility for structure protection lies with the local protection authority based on local agreements. The federal wildland firefighting agencies follow federal policy of protecting life, property and natural resources, and provide structure protection assistance on incidents in support of the local protection authority.

Cost Containment:
• The agencies and states have implemented cost accounting measures through improved business practices that provide line officers and incident commanders with real-time information, and create benchmarks of accountability as costs rise.
• Decision support tools are available to help agency administrators and incident managers make more informed decisions in how and where to respond to a wildfire. The Fire Spread Probability (FSPro) program assesses the probabilities and direction of fire spread over time. The Rapid Assessment Values At Risk (RAVAR) program assists managers in determining property and natural resources values in the fire area that need protection.

National Response Framework – All-Hazard Response:
• The primary mission for the agency wildfire qualified personnel is wildland fire management. In the case of a national disaster, the agencies will respond to all-hazard priority assignments based on our capability.
• The National Response Framework (NRF) establishes a single, comprehensive plan for managing domestic incidents. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is responsible for coordinating NRF activities and provides Mission Assignments, sometimes referred to as ‘taskings’ to the federal agencies.

Smoke and Smoke Impacts:
• Fire and smoke are an inevitable and natural part of fire seasons around the country.
• Fire managers take smoke effects into consideration when planning tactics. As they develop their strategies for fighting a fire, firefighters consider fire behavior and weather forecasts, topography and proximity to communities – all factors that can affect smoke.
• Fire communicators will work with state air management agencies to keep the public informed of anticipated smoke movement and the state’s assessment of the health risks associated with smoke levels.

Wildland Fire Use:
• The goal of the WFU objective is to protect, maintain, and enhance resources and, as nearly as possible, allowed fire to function in its natural ecological role as defined within the context of the agency mission, defined boundaries and approved land use/resource management objectives.
• Benefits of actively managing fire on the landscape can include restoring and maintaining healthy forests, rangelands and wetlands, and supporting ecosystem diversity.

Not being a Forest Service or Cal Fire Employee, I can’t fully appreciate all of the emotion the Esperanza Fire stirs, but as a member of the fire service and wildland community for nearly 3 decades, I do know the deep emotion such a horrific incident brings to us all. With that said I am very troubled by many of the accusations and assumptions made in the “STOP THE TRAVESTY” post. I have known Jeff for many years and yes he is a devoted Cal Fire Employee, however he would never be willing to slant facts or issues of firefighter safety to help CYA his agency. Trying to prevent another tragedy should be our first and foremost consideration in the after-action of such an incident.

While no investigation is perfect (I have done many criminal investigations), no matter what the process, thoroughness or resources committed are, all parties won’t agree on all of the facts. The issue of jurisdiction is often a complex legal one with no clear lines; however who has authority is usually the jurisdiction where the incident occurred, not to whom it occurred. While federal law usually trumps local law if local law is less restrictive, federal jurisdiction doesn’t automatically trump local jurisdiction. While Cal Fires investigation process may not be perfect it is well thought out and executed. Federal investigation process seems to be multi faceted, designed to take a lengthy period, which time is one of the most critical elements of a successful investigation. After studying the South Canyon incident and subsequent Federal Investigations and other reports, and the Thirty Mile Investigation, I don’t see how the case can be made that Federal Investigations are more objective and accurate than Cal Fire?

I have attended several presentations on the Esperanza, including the one you refer to as a “Travesty”. I didn’t see any bias, accusations, or inferred blame on any employee Federal, Cal Fire or Local Government. What I saw was a report on many of the elements that combined to create the tragedy. The sadness of the loss of Four Brothers overshadowed the entire presentation, but I also walked away with just how close other engine crews, including Type One Structure protection ST’s came to being injured or worse in the same run. The presentation didn't go into any Cause and Origin information to stay clear of prosecution issues, obviously discuss with the prosecuting District Attorney.

If we, the wildfire community which includes all firefighters in this age are to prevent future tragedies, we must learn from the past. If we hide these tragic emotional events in the bureaucratic investigations that take years, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes possibly before the investigation of the last one is released. Brad and Jeff have dedicated their careers to the fire service and made more personnel sacrifices than most. Presenting this program is a huge sacrifice, it is time away from home, an emotionally draining presentation to give or attend no matter how many times you have been through it. This program is no Travesty; it is a program to prevent the need to have this very same debate in the future.

Noname

Yes….and No to the CHS question; for BLM anyways. If a person is CHS,
exam is a prerequisite to taking the Pack Test; Pack test is a requirement for
getting hired. So if a person is currently Red Carded, then we can hire them.
But before they can get Pack Tested they have to have a physical. We just
went through the situation multiple times for the fire season and perm hires.
Just wait till you run into a situation where something shows up through the
physical process. OMG… that’s a treat!

BLMboy

$12.00/hr for the first 40 hours worked and
$13.50/hr for any overtime hours worked during the week.
Last Updated ( Thursday, 31 January 2008 )"

Lots of the big contractors are doing this! o/t is time and a half minus the government fringe of 3.00 per hour or something. The biggest contractor of wildland firefighters did this for over a decade. Trust me it is still going on. Some contractors are actually paying a man time and a half. 12.00 regular means 18.00 on o/t but they are a small outfits and have to treat their people well to keep them. The big guys and the fly by nights are the ones that take a worker in the end, so to speak.

Been seeing guys on the contract side work hard for years with nothing to show for it, but year after year they're back digging line.

In my best Rodney Dangerfield impression "looks like we all get no respect!"

sign me

happily watching from the sidelines

vfd cap'n,

What the contractor site failed to mention was that last year ('07) $3.01 out of the $12/hr for straight time came from the employees mandatory health and welfare benefits (based on annual Federal DOL wage determination). Once the initial 40 hours for the week is worked, the Health & Welfare benefit stops. $12-$3= $9x1.5=$13.50, so that seems to be fairly close to the Contract industry standard right now.

I worked for another contractor for 6 1/2 years before heading out on my own with a partner, and always hated making nearly the same hourly rate on OT as I did on straight time. I have started paying $10/hr for 1'st season entry level people (anything less isn't worth getting out of bed for), then add the Health & Welfare on top of that for the first 40hrs. At least then when the employee hits OT and the H&W drops, they are still making an extra $5/hr for their hard work. They look at the extra $3.01 H&W for the first 40hrs as a bonus.

Signed "an engine contractor in R-6"

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080515142934nnnn.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Stories.html

$190 Million in "SAFER" Grants For California Fire Departments
News Blaze
May 16, 2008

SACRAMENTO - Today, Office of Homeland Security Director Matthew Bettenhausen encouraged local fire
departments to apply for federal grants under the 2008 Staffing for Adequate Fire and Emergency
Services (SAFER) Grants.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) today posted the Program Guidance document, beginning the
application period.

Congress appropriated $190 million dollars for SAFER grants under the DHS Appropriations Act of
2008. The SAFER Grant program was created to provide funding directly to fire departments and
volunteer firefighter interest organizations in order to help them increase the number of
trained, “front-line” firefighters available in their communities. [read more at the link]

As Acting Forest Supervisor and with a heavy heart I need to share with you
that one of our employees, Mike Schweitzer, was killed in a single vehicle
accident on Highway 3 as he was commuting home yesterday. Mike worked in
fuels on the Scott/Salmon Ranger District. The accident is being
investigated by CHP and Siskiyou County Sheriff Department personnel, with
assistance by Forest Service law enforcement. More information will be
shared as it becomes available. Arrangements are being made to help our
employees to deal with the stress and grief this incident. John

note added by Mike P:

If you don't see this in the Hotshot mailing list...

Mike was a Salmon River Hotshot, promoted to the Fuels Captain position on
the Scott River District. We held a short District gathering where we
talked about his Leadership, excellent work ethics and a friend to all.
His wife and Father in law let us know how much he loved being a Hotshot.
Mike

note added by Ron B, Fulton IHC Supt:

Very sad news.
Ron

Thanks, Bethany. Again, you fill a need. Link to the jobs info is at the bottom of the page above. Ab.

The NFFE-IAM Legislative Conference is next week, May 19-23. In three more
days, two dozen intrepid souls -- Forest Service employees who have stepped
up to work for the greater good through the NFFE Forest Service Council --
will be walking down the corridors of power in Washington, DC. Their
mission: to speak truth to power. Their goal: to make our agency and other
agencies better places to work and better able to serve the American
citizens who pay the bills. Fighting together to make the world a better
place. (Forgive me if this is over the top for your taste -- but if I
didn't believe this stuff I wouldn't put in the long hours.)

We've been so busy preparing for this opportunity that there's been little
time to keep folks abreast about what's going on. One of NFFE's top
priorities this legislative season is restoring standing to in-house NWCG
courses that were stripped away from those seeking to enter GS-0401 Fire
Management Specialist positions by OPM's "diploma mill" policy. Our
Congressional brief's summary states:

The Forest Service and Department of Interior (DOI) are in the midst of
a 5-year transition of their fire management positions from a technical
to a professional series. Early in this process, the Office of
Personnel Management (OPM) promulgated a policy change to keep credits
earned from “diploma mills” from counting toward meeting qualifications
for federal positions. This change had the unintended consequence of
disallowing credits for specialized wildland fire courses that were a
crucial component of the new professional GS-0401 Fire Management
Specialist standard. OPM’s policy change was not communicated to the
field until over two years after its implementation, during which time
field employees expended significant time, energy, and funds in
completing coursework that, unbeknownst to them, no longer counted. OPM
has refused to grant a waiver to its “diploma mill” policy to reinstate
the standing of these specialized wildland fire courses. As a result,
significant numbers of top field fire managers may be pushed out of
their jobs. Further, the eviscerated fire program manager standard
excludes applicants for vacant positions whose experience and training
are directly related to these critically important jobs. Unless this
problem is addressed, this bureaucratic fiasco will cause a precipitous
drop in experience and leadership and seriously undermine safety and
effectiveness on wildfire and other incidents. Action is needed to
avoid putting employees and the American public at risk.

For more information on the GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist issue,
including our final briefing paper, recent developments, and employee
comments from the field, see
www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/IFPM/Fire_Index.html. There's also links
to help you get involved. Perhaps some of you live in Congressional
districts where we lack legislative reps. If this issue is important to
you, maybe you can open the door for us to carry the story into your
elected representatives' offices.

In addition, we will hold a number of meetings to with California staffers
who question the credibility of the agency's April 1 report on retention.
There are no easy legislative solutions for this issue, but we will
continue to follow up on it to keep the pressure on for a just solution.

We all learned in elementary school, by reading Dr. Suess' fable "Horton
Hears a Who," that the little guys can be heard, but only if they raise
their voices in unison. We cannot forget this important lesson, that we
are in the same boat as our working brothers and sisters all around us.
That's what the union is all about: working men and women raising their
voices together in order to be heard. If you are a member, thanks for
standing with us. If you are not and wish to be, you can find out how to
join on the Council website at www.nffe-fsc.org/.

In solidarity,

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Thanks for your good work, Mark. Ab.

NorCal Tom

There are things afoot on the "geoweb" that will impact fire reporting and firefighting on the interface, including information the public gets via computer, cell phone or PDA. Several of us were in discussion with folks from ESRI at a R5 Chiefs Meeting in 2003 or 2004 and, standing around over coffee, we talked about this potential development that would be coming on the internet.

For the FireGeeks, the GIS girls/guys and the Fireline Nerds and "Firewhirl" out there, who support firefighters through mapping, etc, here's something being made real now that is profoundly exciting to me.

We all know that geography is a way to organize, look at and understand the world and a way to plan resource needs, movement, and use during all risk events. Who could function without the morning briefing firemap and the community and web firemaps? the handheld GIS device during Katrina SAR in New Orleans when streets were under water, etc? (Heck the hotlist needs the naming protocol of state-unit identifier-firename as an organizer to try to keep breaking incidents straight!) Geography and location are critical and important info in any firefighting communication... and to visualizing the emergency situation.

Anyway, here's a link to a 30 minute video of the keynote speech of the Where 2.0 2008 Conference:
www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/05/13/googleesri-keynote-from-where-20-2008/

• John Hanke from GOOGLE and
• Jack Dangermond founder/president of ESRI

lay out and discuss the future of Geomapping. (Many of you know ESRI does firemapping and is the leader in GIS. They've been supporters of this site (sponsor the News page) and our firefighting community for some years. Their link is on the Classifieds page under software.)

Watch the clip. Toward the end you'll see the part that we discussed at the R5 Chiefs Meeting in theoretical terms some years ago. The interface is growing across the US. Wildfire in the wildland-urban interface is growing simply because fires are often caused by humans. Fire danger to large numbers of humans living on the interface is high and can be killer. SoCal may be the focus now with the 2003 and 2007 firestorms, but the problems and solutions needed are coming to large urban areas abutting National Forests, range and wildlands across the US.

Very interesting stuff. Carry on...

Ab.

no name

FOBS73 thanks for resending. I didn't get it the first time. Ab.

What We See, You Never Want to See

It's hard to explain to "civilians" what we do. These writings might help to explain things...

"I WISH YOU COULD"

I wish you could see the sadness of a business man as his livelihood goes up in flames or that family returning home, only to find their house and belongings damaged or destroyed.

I wish you could know what it is to search a burning bedroom for trapped children, flames rolling above your head, your palms and knees burning as you crawl, the floor sagging under your weight as the kitchen beneath you burns.

I wish you could comprehend a wife's horror at 3 A.M. as I check her husband of forty years for a pulse and find none. I start CPR anyway, hoping against hope to bring him back, knowing intuitively it is too late, but wanting his wife and family to know everything possible was done.

I wish you could know the unique smell of burning insulation, the taste of soot-filled mucus, the feeling of intense heat through your turnout gear, the sound of flames crackling, and the eeriness of being able to see absolutely nothing in dense smoke-- "sensations that I have became too familiar with."

I wish you could understand how it feels to go to school in the morning after having spent most of the night, hot and soaking wet at a multiple alarm fire.

I wish you could read my mind as I respond to a building fire, "Is this a false alarm or a working, breathing fire? How is the building constructed? What hazards await me? Is anyone trapped?" or to an EMS call, "What is wrong with the patient? Is it minor or life-threatening? Is the caller really in distress or is he waiting for us with a 2x4 or a gun?"

I wish you could be in the emergency room as the doctor pronounces dead the beautiful little five-year old girl that I have been trying to save during the past twenty-five minutes, who will never go on her first date or say the words "I love you Mommy!" again.

I wish you could know the frustration I feel in the cab of the engine, the driver with his foot pressing down hard on the pedal, my arm tugging again and again at the air horn chain, as you fail to yield right-of-way at an intersection or in traffic. When you need us, however, your first comment upon our arrival will be, "It took you forever to get here!"

I wish you could read my thoughts as I help extricate a girl of teenage years from the mangled remains of her automobile, "What if this were my sister, my girlfriend, or a friend? What were her parents' reactions going to be as they open the door to find a police officer, hat in hand?"

I wish you could know how it feels to walk in the back door and greet my parents and family, not having the heart to tell them that you nearly did not come home from this last call.

I wish you could feel my hurt as people orally, and sometimes physically, abuse us or belittle what I do, or as they express their attitudes of, "It will never happen to me."

I wish you could realize the physical, emotional, and mental drain of missed meals, lost sleep and forgone social activities, in addition to all the tragedy my eyes have viewed.

I wish you could know the brotherhood and self-satisfaction of helping save a life or preserving someone's property, of being there in times of crisis, or creating order from total chaos.

I wish you could understand what it feels like to have a little boy tugging on your arm and asking, "Is my mommy O.K.?" Not even being able to look in his eyes without tears falling from your own and not knowing what to say. Or to have hold back a longtime friend who watches his buddy having rescue breathing done on him as they take him away in the ambulance. You knowing all along he did not have his seat belt on -- sensations that have become too familiar.

Unless you have lived this kind of life, you will never truly understand or appreciate who I am, what we are, or what our job really means to us...
I WISH YOU COULD!

-author unknown

The mis-representation of some-what facts become facts! Such is the case here.

Firefighter safety and response is paramount! Sometimes thing just happen.

Stop the Travesty

Mike Woods, a 32 year old Army Vet, set out on a wilderness trip in the Kalmiopsis Wilderness at Miami Bar on July 9. He hasn't been heard from since. Woods is 6' tall, 170 lbs. with dark brown hair and blue/green eyes. He's described as slender and fit and has an extensive knowledge of the wilderness area.

His tentative plans was to hike down the Illinois River and proceed upriver seeking a waterfall, possibly Salmon Creek. From there, he planned to hike upstream toward Selma and spend time on Queens Island in the Illinois River. From Queens Island, he planned to find a lookout, which could possibly be Pearsoll Peak.

Mellie

The list can be found at
fsweb.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/planning_apps/apprentices/Conversion_Opportunities.html
but can only be viewed from a FS computer. It is updated as of May 13th.

-No name on this one......

Maybe he couldn't access the data on the FS web? Maybe he didn't try? Ab.

Every fall, there is a published booklet of hundreds of Charities,
Foundations, Organizations from international to local levels, etc that is
distributed to federal offices. Employees can chose one or more charities,
fill out a form, and make a donation to that organization, which is
usually, but not always, tax deductible. You can either write a check or
have it taken out of your paycheck by payroll deduction spread through the
rest of the year, so its a fairly painless way to donate money to your
favorite organizations. Many offices, districts, forests, etc also have
some activities to boost donations, such as auctions, dinners, or about any
other fundraising function you can think of. Since its for a good cause
(YOUR favorite good cause, like the newly announced Wildland Firefighter
Foundation) and spread through the year by payroll deduction, its not
uncommon to see some rather large donations made for relatively inexpensive
auction items, I've seen $300 pies and $75-$150 for a dozen cookies. One
person on our district makes custom pottery, she usually donates an item
that goes for $300-500, about 10 times what she would normally sell it for.

So, at the end of the event, a total for the district, forest, etc is
announced, employees go home with their new purchases, fun was had by all,
and thousands of $$$ goes to hundreds of charitable organizations from
federal employees. There is usually about a month in the fall, (November I
believe), where emphasis is placed on the Campaign, but I believe anyone
can sign up anytime.

I'm sure there are other folks that know a lot more about it than me, but I
hope this helps.

Overspent again another year, but WORTH IT!

It was an excellent publication. First one I ever read was in a bathroom in the barracks when I was taking FF1 training. Perhaps we should create a wildlandfire.com "print" section to which people could contribute. Articles could get printed off by deployed firefighters to take with them if they desired. They're going to need something to read in those public and private places in firecamp. Ab.

Stumpie

Thanks. I corrected that. Anyone else sees something needs fixing, please alert me. Ab.

Type I IIM Teams (National)
Type II IIM Teams (Regional)

I heard one was even worn by someone who met the President. When the time is right, someone please share that story. Ab.

I've gotten a question. Would someone please explain how the Combined Federal Campaign works? Ab.

On a side note, the Stanislaus NF and Yosemite NP law enforcement also combined together as an unit in the Sheriff's Posse entry and won that category hands down! Quite an achievement considering the Monterey County Sheriff's Posse has won it for years. Way to go guys!

In my opinion, this is what it is all about - folks coming together from the federal, state and local levels, combining their efforts and talents and achieving the best possible outcome. You folks should be proud.

Lori

A RED FLAG WARNING HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR ELEVATIONS BELOW 3000 FEET IN
INTERIOR NORTHERN CALIFORNIA FOR WEDNESDAY THROUGH FRIDAY.

RIDGE OF HIGH PRESSURE OVER THE REGION INTO THE WEEKEND BRINGING
ABOVE NORMAL TEMPERATURES AND LOW HUMIDITIES. NEAR RECORD TO RECORD
MAXIMUM TEMPERATURES ARE EXPECTED ON THURSDAY INTO SUNDAY. GUSTY
NORTH TO EAST WINDS ARE EXPECTED THROUGH FRIDAY WITH THE STRONGEST
NORTHERLY WINDS EXPECTED TOMORROW AND SHIFTING TO THE EAST ON
THURSDAY INTO FRIDAY. THE GUSTY NORTHEAST WINDS AND WARM
TEMPERATURES ALONG WITH LOW HUMIDITIES AND POOR OVERNIGHT RECOVERIES
WILL BRING CRITICAL FIRE WEATHER CONDITIONS. THESE CONDITIONS
WARRANT A RED FLAG WARNING FOR ELEVATIONS BELOW 3000 FEET IN
INTERIOR NORTHERN CALIFORNIA FOR WEDNESDAY THROUGH FRIDAY.
THE WINDS ARE EXPECTED TO DECREASE FRIDAY INTO THE WEEKEND.

SOUTHERN MOTHERLODE FROM 1000 TO 3000 FT. INCLUDES PORTIONS OF
CALAVERAS-TUOLUMNE UNIT-

NORTHERN MOTHERLODE FROM 1000 TO 3000 FT. INCLUDES PORTIONS OF
NEVADA-YUBA-PLACER-AMADOR AND ELDORADO UNITS-
330 PM PDT TUE MAY 13 2008

...RED FLAG WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 5 AM WEDNESDAY TO 12 PM PDT
FRIDAY FOR LOW HUMIDITIES AND GUSTY NORTHEASTERLY WINDS...
...WIND ADVISORY IN EFFECT FROM 8 AM WEDNESDAY TO 8 AM PDT
THURSDAY...

More IA action on the hotlist yesterday. Ab.

r-df-fsstaffing.doc (29 K doc file) Text of Feinstein press release below:

Statement of Senator Dianne Feinstein on Forest Service
Firefighter Staffing Levels in California

“I recently asked the Forest Service to report on firefighter staffing in California, and this letter makes it clear that the agency has more work to do. It shows that out of 4,432 Forest Service firefighter positions in California this year, there are 363 vacancies – about 8 percent of the firefighting force. And I understand that the agency has had particular difficulty in filling mid-level firefighting positions, where the recent vacancy rates for certain personnel grades have ranged as high as 39 percent.

These are key fire leadership positions. Without them, some fire engines might sit idle – just when they’re needed most. This is unacceptable. We simply cannot afford anything less than a fully staffed firefighting corps in California.

The Forest Service says it plans another round of hiring in July, and will recommend ways to improve firefighter pay and retention issues by June 30. Unfortunately, time is not on our side. Fire season has already begun, and every indication is that the risk is high this year. So I expect the Forest Service to work aggressively to fill these vacancies with qualified firefighters, to come up with a concrete retention plan that keeps these positions filled.”

Rey-FF-Response-May7th.pdf (170 K pdf file) Click the link to read it.

CAsey

Letterman

The letter and table are located at the link below:
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/fed/pli-reiimbursement.htm
Date: March 14, 2008
Subject: Reimbursement for Professional Liability Insurance (PLI) Expanded to Include Temporary Fire Line Managers
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director and Deputy Chiefs

I have good news. I know potential liability has been a significant concern for many wildland firefighters. Important recent legislation extends protection for our firefighters, beginning in the upcoming fire season. I have the pleasure of relaying the details.

On December 26, 2007, President Bush signed Public Law 110-161, the Consolidated Appropriation Act, 2008. Section 429 expands coverage for reimbursement of professional liability insurance to our “temporary fire line managers.”

To qualify, these “temporary fire line managers” must meet one of the following three criteria:

ETC ETC ETC [click the link above for the tables, lists, details. Ab.]
ABIGAIL R. KIMBELL
Chief

The Conundrum of Followship and Policy Change: Opinion Piece

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=18984

EXCELLENT news! Ab

Airtankers 24 www.wildlandfire.com/pics/air24/air24.htm

Helicopters 23 www.wildlandfire.com/pics/heli23/heli23.htm

and Fire 36 www.wildlandfire.com/pics/fire36/fire36.htm

and Handcrews 23 www.wildlandfire.com/pics/hand23/hand23.htm

and Engines 20 www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng20/engines20.htm

Click the words under the photo to read the descriptions and contributors. Contributors. If you have more info to share on your photos, please do so and if you want me to give credit with your name rahter than initials or moniker, I'm happy to do that.

As always, thanks to the page sponsors. Click their link and give them a visit. Hmmmm, I need some new chaps for chain sawing... Ab.

I am a former volunteer firefighter of over 15 years of service (RCoFD, EFPD, VVRFPD and RCoFD again); a federal career wildland firefighter of over 24 years of service; and a trained NWS Weather Spotter (RIV 116) of nearly 8 years. I also grew up in tornado alley, and own retirement property in the Ozarks. I qualify (and have served before) as an expert witness in a Court of Law.

I was also one of the weather spotters who reported the excessive rainfall rates, the rising waters in numerous local creeks, and the severe winds that weren't showing up on radar.... On December 25, 2003 (aka The Christmas Day Flood)..... that prompted the first in a series of Flash Flood Warnings that the NWS issued that saved lives on that fateful day. I was enroute to check on possible damage of our District Office, got diverted to a mudslide with victims trapped in a car that I was closest to (right near our District Office).... and then it just became a long day of memories of things that went well, and some things that didn't that are etched in my RPD slides. I did what I was trained to do, had the experience to do, had the equipment to do, and had either an agency sponsored, or a personal duty to act on the behalf of the safety of others

Hotlist Mods, I believe you confused "Storm Chasing" and "Storm Spotting", and wrongly followed the information initially posted on another firefighter safety / information exchange website. The inference, "Please do not go out in the face of a storm and take on "Storm Spotter Duties".... was hopefully offtrack.... If not, it was disrespectful, even though well intended, to firefighters and others who go out each day just doing their jobs they are either paid or volunteering to do AND HONORING the loss of a fallen brother or sister firefighter. Like it or not, the fact that firefighting is hazardous means there will always be LODDs while protecting others. DONT CONFUSE that with doing everything to limit LODDs that we all hope to.

Storm Spotting is often done through trained volunteer weather spotters interested in protecting their communities, and by trained co-operative (CoOp) weather observers (fire, law, public works, airports, etc) who report severe weather to the NWS as a regular part of their normal duties.

9 out of 10 times or so I've made spotter reports to the NWS, those reports were during the normal performance of my field duties as a Forestry Technician. Most of my reports have been severe thunderstorm development, rising creeks where folks were recreating downstream where it is sunny and unware of the impending hazards, and yes, even a "whip tornado" associated with a thunderstorm with rotation (Ref. - NWS, 2006, San Gorgonio Area). Other reports focused on wind speeds associated with either damage, or wildfire threat.

Yes, even a few of my trained "Spotter Reports" prompted an upgrade to Red Flag Warnings from a Fire Weather Watches in the past....... Who knows, maybe that saved some firefighters or others from peril?

Lobotomy

www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/stormspotting/safety.php

Type I IIM Teams (National) &
Type II IIM Teams (Regional) &
Area Command Teams &
Fire Use Management Teams

Please let me know of any updates or corrections. I do have some ?? on the Type 1 and Type 2 Team pages. Thanks very much contributors. Ab.

Flingwing

Sorry for his passing. Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/iimt2.htm

If anyone wants to clarify the DPICs on the T2 Teams, or send in rosters, I'll strip contact info and post 'em. After that I'll work on the FUM Team page tomorrow. Ab.

Please do not go out in the face of a storm and take on "Storm Spotter Duties".
A young firefighter in Missouri did that and was reportedly struck and killed by
lightning. Our thoughts and prayers to family, co-workers and friends.
This is truly sad.

Hotlist Mods

Hotlist safety thread for lightning: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=1941
Later: Hotlist thread with more details on the incident: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4206

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/IIMT.htm

Please check to see if any of you know any more . Let me know if any links don't work. There are ??? where I don't have a link. In addition, I don't have a link for the two new NIMO teams.

Working on the Type 2 Teams next. Then I'll create a page for the FUM Teams. This always takes so much longer than expected. Let me remind everyone that the Links page under federal has a permanent link to these pages (and to the FS lookup page too). Ab.

Chester rappel.

Will try to get those on a helicopter photo page soon. Ab.

Just before dusk on June 2nd, 2002, Yosemite Valley rangers received a report of a significant rock fall and subsequent shouts for help coming from the Direct North Buttress route on Middle Cathedral. Using a spotting scope and a PA system, rangers were able to determine that 33-year-old John Kurth of Durango, Colorado had been caught in the rock fall and that he was suffering from neck pain and a possible shoulder dislocation and fractured elbow. Due to the loose rock in the area and the difficult position of the climbing party at the base of a long chimney, it was decided that it would be safest to wait until morning to begin the rescue effort. Kurth's climbing partner held his arm in traction throughout the night as they bivvied on a sloping ledge without overnight gear about 1700 feet above the Valley floor. The following morning, rangers John Dill, Dave Horne, Greg Lawler and Ed Visnovske and fire helitack personnel Dan Gleason and Shawn Walters rappelled from the park helicopter to a spire about 300 feet above the injured climber. Horne was then lowered to Kurth. Working in a tight area with an abundance of loose rocks, the rescue team raised Horne and Kurth to the top of the spire. From there, Horne and Kurth were short-hauled under the park helicopter to El Capitan Meadow near the base of the wall. Kurth was taken by park ambulance to the Yosemite Medical Clinic, then flown by air ambulance to Doctors Medical Center in Modesto. After the victim was evacuated, the remaining rescuers and Kurth's partner were all short-hauled to the meadow. In the aftermath of the recent climbing incidents on Mt. Rainier and Mt. Hood, media interest was extremely high. The park's Media Relations Office conducted over 30 press interviews, and the Sacramento ABC affiliate station's helicopter filmed the short haul. The news footage was shown on ABC stations and on Good Morning America as "The Picture of the Day." Kurth and his partner, Casey Shaw, have about 37 years of climbing experience between them. According to Shaw, Kurth's climbing helmet saved his life. [Todd Bruno, IC/PR, YOSE, 6/4/2002]

Fire Mom

Nice. Ab.

Subject: No change in policy regarding use of PPE at Incident Bases

A couple of questions have recently surfaced regarding use of PPE by
non-fireline qualified personnel at Incident Bases.

There has been no change in policy regarding this. Non-fireline personnel
are not required to have and wear PPE at incident bases.

If you are aware of any individuals that have been misinformed on this
topic please share this information with them.

The largest acreage gains occurred at night... burning in alignment with the wind (downslope).... but out of alignment with slope... towards the community.

I was on this fire too.
Actually since two forces, that of sunlight and slope were out of alignment with the wind…
And during the day all forces were in alignment (full sun, steep slope, upslope wind)…
But the acreage growth was greater when the forces were NOT in alignment.
How does the CPS account for this and many fires behavior on the coastal plain in spring time or at night?
Behave + can account for this behavior by accounting for the effect of Live Fuel moisture and wind vector.

FC180

Thanks, I put them on Engines 20 photo page. Ab.

TOS= Transfer of Station

Salute to wives and mothers hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4174

Thanks to those sending in info. Appreciate it. Ab.

Mine did. She was quite a woman who thought girls could be athletes and could
compete. She loved the woods, hiking til her muscles burned. She knew girls were
smart and had some incredible staying powers working in the garden. She was a
stay at home on the farm mom, but she got me involved in many activities at home
and out there that gave me the KSAs important to firefighting and working on
disaster preparedness.

Here's to you Mom! No longer around, but still a major influence in my life! Glad
you lasted long enough to see me fighting fire in our original home state (OR).
Couldn't have done it without your support. I love you.

GA Peach

Today is Mothers Day! Ab.

NERON PROJECT: Firefighters safety in urban interface (Spain) (400K pdf file)

Does the US have a better example?

Doug

FYI, the Atlanta NIMO Team’s IC is George Custer now. If you go to their site,
they still have Joe Ferguson on their home page as IC, but if you go to their roster,
Custer is IC. Joe stepped down in December.

As always – thanks for running such a great site!

Information Diva

Hi Info Diva. I need to update the three teams pages. Type I Teams and Type II Teams and add or update Fire Use Teams. It's always a crap shoot for when I have time to do it and when I can find all the info on the web or from the community. If anyone has updated ICs, DPICs or team links, please let me know. I've blocked off Monday morning for the job. It may take all of Monday, usually does take longer than I think, we'll see.

Unless something really pressing comes up like breaking fires and working non-stop on the Hotlist, I plan to work on trying to catch up photos starting Tuesday. A request: Please try to send in only 3 photos max. Pick your best. The photos I typically don't get to are the 10 photo collections where I have to figure out which 3 to choose. Send in the first 3. If you think you have more that might be considered for the calendar or another one that you simply like a lot, please say so and we can work something out. The day of digital cameras has increased the photo contributions quite a bit.

Thanks contributors. You all make this website run as smoothly as it can, even if it is sometimes like herding cats with tales afire. Thanks for your excellent communication skills and for those that don't quite have them, thanks at least for trying! HAW HAW.

Be safe. Ab.

Firefighter Frank Rios (from this tribal Nation) died in the 1967 Bailiff Fire on the San Bernardino NF, CA.

Anyone with additional info for contact information for the family, please contact the WFF or the Forest Service Honor Guard.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Federal, state, tribal firefighters join to battle Baboquivari blaze
Arizona Daily Star

A wildfire is burning in the Baboquivari Mountains southwest of Tucson.

The Solano Fire started Friday about seven miles south of Kitt Peak and was estimated yesterday afternoon at 200 acres, said Lorraine Buck, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Land Management.

Cooler weather overnight and re...

www.azstarnet.com/sn/mailstory-clickthru/238312.php

In four days, two USFS wildland firefighters, Shawn Walters R-5 and
Daniel Gleason R-6, will be awarded the DOI gold medal of valor.
Both are former members of Yosemite Helitack, where they were
nominated for the award. They will be presented the medal in Washington
D.C. on may 13th.

It is great to see firefighters (forestry techs) getting an award like this.
Keep up the good work.

DMC

Congrats. Do you know the story behind the award?Ab.

Thanks Gloria. Ab.

"The fire stalling half way up a south-west aspect is a signature. The cause of the
fire slowing could have been a change in solar preheating of the fuel bed due to
smoke shading. Then you have 2 signatures on the same aspect. I have seen
this occur at times. What do you think may have caused the fire behavior
change? Maybe you could run FLAME or BEHAVE + to determine the cause?"

I was on this fire, and while the above may have had some influence, I believe it have more to do with the greener grass and possibly higher LFM as the elevation increased. When the fire had "momentum" it was able to climb the ridges, but at higher elevations where the grass was green, it could not sustain itself. As with any fire there were many more variables that I will not go into now.

I have thought in terms of a fire's momentum for years but am not smart enough to model it like Dr. Viejas.

I appreciate CPS for its utility on the ground, I also appreciate the other models for what they do. But, I always remember what an old FBAN told me years ago:

"All models are wrong; some are useful."

BB

LFM=Live Fuel Moisture Ab.

Lori, the dates you mention are correct. However the GS-5 you speak of is actually a GS-5/6 (see below). This 5/6 can be hired on all module types (Eng, Crews, WT and Helo).

Not much time, get your applications in.

Signed,

Hoping to Pull Off the "Mark Rey Miracle".

REGION 5 FIRE ANNOUNCEMENTS
May 2008

Applicants can apply to the following announcements until May 27, 2008, to be considered for the Region 5 July FireHire.

Applicants can apply to the following announcements until June 16, 2008, to be considered for the Regional July FireHire.

DEVELOPMENTAL GS-05 Announcements
ADS08-R5-FIRE-DEVELOPMENTAL-05 G&DP*
*This position is a target GS-06 grade level

Also note. Apprentices may be hired at the GS-5 level...................

To date thru May 27 May 08 May 27 May 28 June 16 June 17 June 23 thru July 3 July 7-18 June thru September

---  ---    ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---

Focused outreach by Fire & Aviation Management, Forest Civil Rights Officers, and HR Recruitment Specialists. Opening date for qualified GS-05, developmental to target grade level GS-06 announcement. This will include developmental requirements for Assistant Fire Engine Operator, Helitak, Hotshot, and Hand Crew positions. Last day for employees/applicants to apply for positions GS-06 thru GS-09. Regional referral lists issued for each Fire vacancy announcement GS-09 and below. Closing date for qualified GS-05, developmental to target grade level GS-06 announcement. Regional referral lists issued for the developmental GS-06 announcements. Fire subject-matter experts meet to prepare referral list packages for RST (up to two weeks). Initial RST hiring session with two selecting officials for up to two weeks, offers being made, HR process completed. Additional RST hiring sessions will be set up based on Regional need during the selection period. Apprentice GS-0462-02/03/04/05 outreach and recruitment.

Deadline for applications for the next round of Fire Hire is May 27. Also, they are
opening up GS-5 positions to everyone with a deadline of June 16th (I believe this
is what I read....it was a hit and miss morning). So, if you know someone that wants
to apply demo as a 5, let them know. I know that it will help out some folks around
here. If the date for the deadline of June 16th isn't correct, I will amend it on Monday
morning.

Have a great weekend all and if you're on a fire - BE SAFE!!!

Lori

From: WO-RO-Area Transformation
Sent: 05/10/2008 01:05 AM
To: All FS
Subject: Transformation Talk - May 5

Transformation Talk
with Hank, Joel and Tom
May 5, 2008

Since the April 8-9 National Leadership Team (NLT) meeting, Forest
Service leaders have talked with many of you regarding the NLT’s first
four topic area decisions as part of the WO/RO/Area Transformation.
More information about our strategic decisions for the
Vegetation/Ecological Services, Engineering, Minerals and Geology
Management, and Acquisition Management scenarios is available on the
Transformation internal Web site.

Decision Rationale and Next Steps

Our decisions for these scenarios address three key reasons for
organizational change:
· our need for more integrated organizational structures to accomplish
our mission and respond to the emerging issues of the 21st century,
· our need to be flexible, dynamic, and adaptable in responding to our
stakeholders, and
· our goal of increasing efficiency in light of declining budgets and
increasing fixed costs.

Yes, budget realities led us to address these concerns, however we chose
to embrace more than short-term budget goals. Our vision is to create
healthy organizational structures that promote long-term value and
benefits – to our employees, our partners and the public we serve. Now
we’re asking the tactical “what” and “how” questions. What are we going
to be doing differently? How will our work processes change so that we
can operate more efficiently within budget constraints? How will
employees be affected – in terms of how they work and their individual
positions? Bottom line, what cost reductions and other benefits will we
achieve?

These questions are a critical part of the next step in the
transformation process – the “design phase” which will involve:
· a design analysis of each of the approved scenarios;
· identification and design of specific process improvements;
· identification of changes in roles and responsibilities and the way
work is accomplished; and
· analysis of implementation and transition costs
We’ll have more answers to the tactical questions posed above as we
complete the design analyses and begin making more decisions on how to
begin their implementation.

Some of you looked at our decision for the Vegetation/Ecological
Services scenario which integrates five staff areas and asked why we’re
not reducing the number of Director positions. Here’s why:

Ø Whether you're working for a federal agency or a private business,
you need your senior level leaders to maintain and grow relationships
with external contacts. These leaders proactively advocate and
strategize for expanding our support base. In a time of decreasing
budgets, we need the information flow between us, the Department,
Congress and our partners has never been so vital.

Stay Tuned…

Please stay tuned as we continue to work on other scenarios. Also,
please note that the ELT will be meeting July 22-24 to make additional
decisions regarding transformation.

If you had questions during the meetings over the last few weeks that
were not answered – or if you have questions as you review the materials
– please do not hesitate to submit them via the Web and we will respond
as soon as we are able to provide an accurate and timely answer.

The hard work and professionalism of Forest Service employees
contributes to our daily success. We appreciate your continued
interest, dedication and participation in helping us better deliver our
mission programs and services.

Hank, Joel & Tom

Hank Kashdan- Deputy Chief, Business Operations
Joel Holtrop, Deputy Chief, National Forest System
Tom Tidwell, Regional Forester, Region 1

Thanks, old retired dude, from another old retired dude, Doug.

Watching a fire burn and asking the question,

• "What is the fire telling me?" is a good start.
  
  One thing it is exhibiting is that it is burning with variations of intensity and rate of spread.
  
• The next thing to find out is what is causing the variations?
  
  When you identify and isolate these causes for the variations, you then identify places on the terrain where the causes are aligned in a way to produce one of the variations.
  
• Next, you need to communicate the prediction so that others see the method used to make the prediction.
  
  You only need to predict in thresholds. By that I mean what firefighters need to know is where it is safe and within the threshold of control and where and when the area will burn beyond the threshold of control. After a fire goes to crown firefighters do not get any benefit from computed flame length or rate of spread calculations, for the fire is beyond the threshold of control.
  
• What I try to do is to identify these areas in front of the fire on a map, using trigger points of change in intensity etc, to in-alignment runs, the track the fire will take, and the first run perimeter.

All this from asking a simple question, "What is the fire telling you?"

What the fire did yesterday it might well repeat today given the causes are the same. One good example is the much talked about Butte fire. Noting crown fire runs on two days previous, is it logical to consider the potential for a third day crown fire run on the afternoon, below a constructed fire line atop a ridge with a SouthWest aspect below? "If it makes a run below your holding location, fire out from the ridge top" was the plan. Firing out would produce a backing fire under the timber and would no way inhibit a crown fire from below. How could this set of circumstantial evidence be missed by so many well trained people? I learned a lesson from this story, but did the bulk of firefighters who have heard the story of the Butte fire learn what they need to learn to avoid repeating the error?

Can students identify hazardous areas and avoid them after taking one of the courses titled Fire Behavior? It all goes back to what firefighters need to know, I suppose. Why can't we produce an IAP map with wind forecast direction arrows on it as well as in-alignment slopes identified by previous fire signatures displayed? Why can't we have maps with fire behavior potential displayed on them. Maybe because we don't think firefighters need to know these things.

Old fire dude, its good to know you're keeping in touch for you have much to give from your experience. How about a thread from the old fire farts that deals with what firefighters need to know?

To all, have a safe and prosperous fire season

My bold above. Good thread idea. After posting them here, I could start a thread on the hotlist and copy them over there so the knowledge offered is all in one place. Here it is: Old Wisdom Thread. Ab.

Many of the people in this class were long term firefighters. Ten or more years for most. Many of us were not that educated on the HP-90 computer used to predict spread and intensities.

Most of us stayed up late each night studying the material. The day we took our final exam the cadre leader listed the spread of grades among the class pool.

We were the first class that had a %100 passing rate that he had ever taught and he had been teaching S-490 for some time.

Most of us had years of watching fire behavior and I know for me, and talking to others we used that real world knowledge to figure out the "black box" even if we weren't the most computer savvy folks in the field.

Fish01

The thing that disturbs me the most is that there appears to be a thought process not only in fire behavior training but in all fire training that a person attends the class and they "know" the subject. Seldom have I heard any discussion with students that classroom training simply provides you the basics. You learn it by applying what you learned in the classroom out in the field WATCHING fire behavior. Module leaders need to take every opportunity to be the teacher for their crews. When your sitting on the ridgetop, road or any other place, take the opportunity to have the crew watch fire behavior and not be sleeping, writing in journals and playing hackisack. Seeing the real thing and discussing it is how you LEARN the lesson taught in the classroom.

Old retired dude

Ab,

I have noticed the large volume of posts relating to fire behavior courses and modeling tools and thought I may as well throw my two bits in for what its worth.

I would like to share a "philosophy" so to speak that several highly respected leaders in the fire community, (some retired and some not) have come up with and applied over the years to the S-390/290 curriculum in Northern California. I can share with you that in my opinion there is a definite place for some type of modeling in the "old" and now "new" S-290 curriculum. Should it be CPS, FLAME, Nomo's, or Appendix B? We'll come back to that thought!

It is no secret that the last version of 290 was a watered down 390, and I would prefer to leave the can of worms that is the re-write process alone as far as this message is concerned. It is no secret that NWCG courses are designed to be strengthened and encourage instructors to enhance the package and make it their own. How many times have you sat through an S-course and had an instructor read word for word from the slide (and these days the PowerPoint)?

Both old and new 290's were broken down (basically) into the fire environment, fuels, weather, and topography. Nomograms or predictions was an optional unit that based on my observations not many cadre wanted to touch. After all who would admit to wanting to or even enjoy teaching Nomograms? Several folks who are way smarter than me decided to keep that optional unit in the lineup because they were able to see thru the haze to the value of that crazy piece of paper with boxes, lines and numbers on it. The thinking was then as it is now, we spend almost an entire week talking about the inputs to the fire spread model, (fuel model, slope, wind speed, fine dead fuel moisture/live fuel moisture, etc). Why not take it that one last step and show students the outputs they could get after plugging them into some model like the Nomo, and appendix B. For some people this is what is needed to paint the picture in their heads and make a slide. For others it served to create confusion, especially the nomogram.

I believe the same can be said for other models and processors. Some work for folks better than others it just depends on the person teaching and the person taking it in. I can tell you that the appendix B and Nomogram worked for me (I don’t use nomos anymore). I believe I get what I need to out of them to help get myself and the people I work with home for the holidays. Like many others, I am still unsure how FLAME is going to fit in to the 290 world. I have high hopes for it because despite knowing darn well that no matter how hard I look I am not going to find that one "special thing" that will keep firefighters from paying the ultimate price, maybe FLAME will serve to be part of that "special thing" for someone out there who is new and in need of the slide it will provide. If it can serve to help just one person make the right call it is worth it in my opinion. I have a hard time believing that there are many out there who could disagree with the intent, and that is to make safer firefighters and crew bosses.

As I said I am still struggling to find how this new tool can/will fit into my world. I can assure you that I will afford all the energy and time I can and not simply shrug it off or sweep it away because it represents change. It may be that I will use a combination of multiple processors or tools as I continue to teach fire behavior, and as long as I don’t forget that the most valuable and important processor sits on top of my shoulders I should be alright! Now who can argue with that?

I must say that I am happy in a way to see all this debate over fire behavior related topics. Just when I thought all eyes were permanently fixed upon retention, pay, facilities, etc. I am encouraged by all of you who are keeping at least one eye where it should be as this season of record setting dryness (here in NorCal) spools up.

Take care........

DH

Ab, Thank you for your time and the work you do here. Like so many others I truly appreciate it. (don’t know why I haven't written till now) Don’t quite know how to go about posting on they said. If you think my words are worth pasting over there please go ahead.

DH, thanks for bringing your viewpoint. Hope you'll write in again. Ab.

Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4145

FC180 comment: I believe “Solid Terrain Modeling” is also a
trade name and the “idea” is copyright protected.

Doug reply: What are you saying? So someone invents a new product and
you are worried about copyright? Buy it if you like it and don't buy if you don't.

FC180 comment: And those things are VERY expensive.

Doug reply: About $500.00 per sq, ft.

FC180 comment: And not necessarily a new idea. Remember
the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably copyright protected too)
topographic maps? The ones I have are made by Hubbard
Scientific.

Doug reply: If that is what you like, keep buying them. Are they copyright
protected too?

FC180 comment: By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the
fire stalled halfway up the slope on a south-west aspect in mid
day. Is that a signature?

Doug reply: Here's Solid Terrain models : www.stm-usa.com/. I have used the
plastic relief maps also, but check out the website above for all the information.

The fire stalling half way up a south-west aspect is a signature. The cause of the
fire slowing could have been a change in solar preheating of the fuel bed due to
smoke shading. Then you have 2 signatures on the same aspect. I have seen
this occur at times. What do you think may have caused the fire behavior
change? Maybe you could run FLAME or BEHAVE + to determine the cause?

I hope this helps you.
Doug

Abercrombie,

Assembling this discussion (CPS/FLAME) into a single thread is very helpful. It's the kind of discussion this subject needs. I took Mr. Campbell's course about six years ago, and have incorporated its sense and wisdom into my fire work. I hope to persuade my superiors to offer it again to a new batch of firefighters with my home unit soon. I have not yet had a chance to work through in detail on the use of FLAME, though I read the materials offered by Mr. Bishop and others enough to have a sense of it. I see real value in it as well, especially in the way it addresses the geometric expansion of ROS during blowup. This seems to me to fit well in general terms with the research Dr. Viejas has reported from Portugal on eruptive fire behavior.

I understand, I think, the motives of those who inserted FLAME into S-290. They wanted to give crew bosses some tools to take more direct charge of their own understanding of current and expected fire behavior at the most critical moments. From the discussions on this subject, it isn't clear to me yet what the intended audience thinks of the plan. Is it something they asked for? If not, then that may be the reason for much of the PUSH BACK. We don't like new stuff. That's no reason not to offer it, though.

CPS is a valuable tool, but I think Mr. Campbell is absolutely correct to insist that the entire course be offered as a stand-alone event, rather than incorporated piecemeal into existing S courses. There is so much of value in it that to dilute any part of it by blending with other objectives would be detrimental.

I understand the attitudes of those who would wish it otherwise, but there is enough of the observation/ experience-based knowledge of other researchers to provide valuable knowledge to those taking S290 to fill the needs of students. Perhaps a mistake made in the design of the new 290 was to put too much information in the hands of students for one course. Perhaps it was to misunderstand what level of information the students themselves were comfortable understanding. The value to me in the making the progression from 190 through 490 over time was that I had time to assimilate one level before proceeding the next one. Any curriculum that has fire modeling at its core should be directed at those who are expecting it, hard as it is. FLAME itself has three layers of detail, and maybe it would be better to expose students to those layers separately, just as in fire behavior, S390 introduced us to the principle of nomograms with the knowledge that we wouldn't have to actually think about them much unless we were geeky enough to choose to do that.

Each of the processes that are being discussed here are visualization tools. Attempts to help firefighters see in their mind's eye what will, may or is likely to happen to their fire, and give them a fighting chance to act correctly to mitigate all risks associated with their assignments. The intent of each process is the clarity and precision with which that vision can be communicated to subordinates. On the line, CPS has the advantage of expressing itself in a language that firefighters can understand without having to think in complex terms.

I do see great value in using FLAME as a more sensible field calculation system when dealing with rapid changes in burning conditions. Probably at the Strike Team or Div Sup level, though.

Thanks again for pulling all this together.

Ambrose

I emailed the folks in charge of the SJ reunion and and asked them to
pass along the posts to Tom Decker. Hopefully, we'll get a story from
him that way. If not, I've tracked down a snail addy for him and will
send him a letter.

JerseyBoy

I believe “Solid Terrain Modeling” is also a trade name and the “idea” is
copyright protected. And those things are VERY expensive. And not
necessarily a new idea. Remember the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably
copyright protected too) topographic maps? The ones I have are made
by Hubbard Scientific.

By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the fire stalled halfway up the
slope on a south-west aspect in mid day. Is that a signature?

FC180

I loved your story and can definitely remember the days of "free love". I was growing up in the Bay Ar ea during that time and a trip to Haight-Ashbury was a real treat.e were some interesting sights!

However, the show I was watching was filmed in the early 60's so the fire he was talking about had to of occurred much earlier than 1970. I am hoping that someone who knows Tom will see his name being bantered around and will get in touch with him. I would love to hear the story from him first hand.

Gee, will all these X rated stories.... no wonder John loved being a wildland firefighter! ;-)

Lori

Highway dedicated to fallen Esperanza firefighters Friday
www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080506/NEWS01/80506037

State Highway 243 will be officially dedicated as the Esperanza Firefighters Memorial Highway in a special ceremony Friday.

State Assemblyman John J. Benoit will speak at the dedication, set for 10 a.m. at the Silent Valley RV Club in the small mountain community of Poppet Flats. That's near where five U.S. Forest Service firefighters based in Idyllwild were overrun by the Esperanza wildfire on Oct. 26, 2006. Four died at the scene; the fifth five days later.

more at the link

Distributions Used To Pay Insurance Premiums for Public Safety Officers

If you are an eligible retired public safety officer (law enforcement officer, firefighter, chaplain, or member of a rescue squad or ambulance crew), you can elect to exclude from income distributions made from an eligible retirement plan that are used to pay the premiums for accident or health insurance or long-term care insurance. The premiums can be for coverage for you, your spouse, or dependents. The distribution must be made directly from the plan to the insurance provider. You can exclude from income the smaller of the amount of the insurance premiums or $3,000. You can only make this election for amounts that would otherwise be included in your income. The amount excluded from your income cannot be used to claim a medical expense deduction.

For this purpose, an eligible retirement plan is a governmental plan that is:

* A qualified trust,
* A section 403(a) plan,
* A section 403(b) annuity, or
* A section 457(b) plan.

The CSRS and FERS are considered eligible retirement plans.

How to report. If you make this election, reduce the otherwise taxable amount of your annuity by the amount excluded. The taxable annuity shown on Form CSA 1099R does not reflect this exclusion. Report your total distributions on Form 1040, line 16a; Form 1040A, line 12a; or Form 1040NR, line 17a. Report the taxable amount on Form 1040, line 16b; Form 1040A, line 12b; or Form 1040NR, line 17b. Enter “PSO” next to the appropriate line on which you report the taxable amount.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Good story about creative problem solving, people stepping up,
and generosity of the fire family/ persistent retired law enforcement
officer. Photos of those who died.

Small (Colorado) fire company regroups after loss
www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_9187813

A bridge collapse last month during a devastating brush fire took the lives of two firefighters and destroyed one of tiny Olney Springs' three firetrucks.

But since the tragedy, four men have joined the volunteer fire department in the southeastern Colorado town of 300, nearly doubling the size of the unit.

And Fred McKnight, a volunteer firefighter from Ouray County, coaxed a California fire department into donating a fire tanker to Olney Springs, which has a fire budget of only about $4,000 a year.

Ab,

In going through the documents on the GS-0401 issue, I discovered a mistake
in my earlier post. It appears that the commitment for agency funding to
purchase NWCG courses retroactively is limited to the Forest Service. The
April 25 USDA/USDOI Update states, "For the Forest Service - where
agreements are in place, agencies will pay for any past credits when they
are creditable toward GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist standards through
October 1, 2010." While we are pleased to have achieved this for the
employees we represent, we also feel all wildland firefighters should have
the same opportunity.

Also, to answer a question that's come up: In subsequent discussions with
agency leadership, we were told that this was intended to apply to
incumbents, not necessarily to folks whose next logical position would be a
GS-0401 position. We will continue to work for a legislative solution that
renders this point moot by restoring the standing of in-house courses, and
also internally with the agency to extend the same offer to non-incumbents
who have also been harmed by the mid-stream change in rules.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

No one figured out his secret - they barely understood what he did! The closest one person
got was when he was asked if, when he got stuck in the tree, his pants came off. I wonder if
Tom has ever seen that old clip. I must give kudos to the host of the show - he named the
agency correctly and spoke of how brave the men and women who protect our forests are!

Of course, we all know that, right?

Lori

I went to the SJ website and looked on their '07 Boise Reunion list.
Thomas Decker is listed on the R4 Idaho City '64 SJ crew (that crew
has dates from 1948-1968). Someone should email him and ask
him to write in and tell his story here and also tell the "I've Got a
Secret Story". Did anyone figure out his secret, Lori?

Mellie

Can anyone recall the X-Rated fire outside of Takilma OR in SW Oregon
(behind Greyback Mountain). That fire was on or butted up to one of the
oldest nudist back-to-the-earth communes and occurred in that time frame.
Don't remember a SJ Tom Decker on that fire, but could of been. The Cave
Junction SJs were there fighting fire with greatly heightened Situational
Awareness of more than just fire behavior!

I could add that fire to my "Just One More Time" list.

Weren't those the days...

Just One More Time thread. Ab.

His secret was that on his very first jump, he landed in the middle of a nudist colony. Now, how many of you can top that story?!?

This young man's name was Tom Decker and he was from Emmett, Idaho. I was wondering if anyone out there knows Tom or was on this smokejumping crew?

Lori

I heard that occurred in Oregon (Cave Junction SJs ? and that the people there were fighting fire naked. Ouch?) Readers, any more info? Ab.

KCK: Doug, You said, "CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into the calculations".

You then went into describing things that SHOULD be taught in the basic I and S courses.. but provided a caveat that they shouldn't be taught "in any existing course".

Doug's Answer:
I am not criticizing the content of any S-course.
I was talking about having the entire course squished into an existing course which
would cut a lot out of the presentation. I did not mean to suggest that some of
the subject matter should not be included in S-courses because it has already
happened. I just happen to think that cherry picking CPS training apart is not
my preference. Linking human factors and observation/prediction skills is
important in that without the right mission and vision, ethics, the training does
not result in the same approach to firefighting.

KCK: Doug, you mentioned both Will and Drew..... how about trusting the rest of of us?

Doug: I will trust all who have an interest in taking the CPS course and doing the
work that it takes to be able to present the concepts properly.

KCK: It is a real small world we travel in...... Some of us really hate roadblocks and wrong
turns when we are finally heading in the right direction.... Your call my friend and mentor.

Doug: I do not want to be a roadblock. Some folks have assumed that since I have a
copyright on the book that this is a block. If some want to make it a roadblock
I guess they can, but I did not foresee my work constrained by copyright.
I have offered to share the graphics with Germany for instance if they would
take my stories out and replace them with theirs.

I have spent thousands of my funds to publish the book and workbook, as has
Bill Teie, for instance: his book has been purchased by many departments.
While I was still employed by the FS I asked the WO to assist me in creating this
course. I was asked to provide an overview for them to look over. I spent
$1,500.00 on the printing of the paper. This resulted in no assistance from
the agency and forced me to develop the course on my own and at my own
expense.

KCK: I'm really confused on your message.

Doug: What is your personal road block? How are you confused?
I hope my reply helps you understand what my opinion is and that I do not want CPS
to contest another course of study that exists, nor do I wish that CPS replace
any NWCG course. I am not in a contest with FLAME, BEHAVE, FARSITE or any
other fire behavior course. If some agency wants the training, I can help them
achieve it by either myself or others. The Forest Service already has the course
material and does training, such as Redding Hotshots each year; as well as in
Colorado Fire Camp, Los Angeles County Fire department and more.
I think that you made some assumptions beyond my meaning.

Best regards
Doug

Doug says anyone can call him to discuss any confusions.

From my perspective, perhaps the real question is: What is the purpose of the S-190, 290 etc classes, which in my opinion point toward fire behavior modeling, unless the current FLAME inclusion in 290 serves only a simulation training kind of function?

Doug's class helps firefighters on the ground make observations and predictions of the fire from their observations of fire on the ground where they are. To large extent, historically, the other classes were devoid of training on observational skills. Like Tim, I would ask trainers (and trainees) what their more recent experience is. Perhaps there should be two paths with different purposes since fire modeling and on-the-ground fire prediction are both critically important. Just a thought. Ab.

• Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in time and place.
• Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing, a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.
• The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.
• The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions of change from observed fire behavior.
• Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.
• The threshold of control determination that assist the firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can succeed tactically.
• Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior over time, on the terrain.
• How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.

Thanks!

Still Out There ...

With regards to the first issue, I can say that the CPS was discussed as a possible inclusion into the 290 curriculum. To the best of my recollection, that consideration was short-lived due to proprietary/copyright/financial issues.

The CPS training program is used by many of the people whom I have taught the program to. Will Spyrison of the Los Angeles NF, River District and Andrew Smith of LA County Fire Department, are two of many, with the graphics furnished to them by myself. The only place that copyright issues are in play are the CPS books and Workbooks. I would gladly offer special consideration to overcome hesitation to adopt the course and material as I have done in Europe.

However, inclusion into any of the S-courses would not be my desire. CPS is not contesting fire modeling and should not be mixed in with current course material any more than its terms and concepts already have been. It is a small course that is based on old wisdom of successful firefighters.

CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into the calculations, such as:

Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in time and place.

Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing, a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.

The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.

The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions of change from observed fire behavior.

Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.

The threshold of control determination that assist the firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can succeed tactically.

Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior over time, on the terrain.

How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.

All of these subject matters are not part of fire modeling.

I therefore do not recommend, for what that may be worth, inclusion of CPS training in any existing course.

Respectfully
Doug Campbell

P.S. See page 10 & 11 for viability of fire modeling. FS Wildland Fire External R&D Peer Review, '07

I have one order here on my desk from last year. It states that the IC requested "x piece of equipment" at 07:00 on a Saturday, my dispatch received the order at 13:00 on Saturday, they, dispatch, where staffed this particular Saturday until 23:40hrs, I d id not get called from dispatch until 11:07 on Sunday. so, 1 hour to hit the road and a 7 hour drive later, we arrived at 20:00 hours. in the meantime property was damaged and destroyed. Could have lil 'ole me stopped that outcome??? Who knows? Could have we possibly reduced or prevented some of the damages? Well I am not sure, but we would have fought hard to protect the properties! The IC lost over 24 hours of use of " x piece of equipment". I would love for someone to look into ROSS to see what personnel and equipment was available to support the 30 mile incident during IA or even extended IA.

Many times I have gone by our dispatch, even on "heavy" days and they work at the same pace.... I know, one has to be thorough , but come on guys! Yes I do have more than one bone to pick with dispatch, but look AB I kept this note to one topic:) And that being efficiency!

R6 fireguy

I'm fairly sure ROSS wasn't widely in use in 2001. As I understand it, the kinks are still getting worked out of that program. Last year or year before some dispatchers were still doing the work by hand and transferring info into ROSS some time after the "crisis" when things slowed down. Ab.

"A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland firefighters
to view future investigations, FLAs, and APAs as witch hunts. Even self-reported
errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or
character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If personal
liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open and honest
testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the well
dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator
of things to come."

Ellreese’s situation in the aftermath of that incident is bad enough; can you imagine
what "they" would have subjected poor Lotzi to (with Ellreese as the precedent you
refer to), right this moment, had he survived his crew?

I shudder at the thought.

(The Esperanza report made me weep. 'Nuff said.)

Peace... and be safe out there, everyone. Fire season has arrived already, and it's
going to be a doozie.

--Short Stuff

Gross negligence is voluntary disregard of the need to act in the way that a reasonable firefighter would act. It is conduct that is more than mere inadvertence, but it is still shy of being intentionally malicious. If negligence is being careless, then gross negligence is being REALLY careless. Think: careless to the point that it is almost impossible to believe the person didn't know what they were doing.

With all due respect to Nomad, I can't help but shake the feeling that well-meaning firefighter types are being played by the insurance industry on this one. I don't profess to give anyone advice in this area, but . . . private liability insurance for government employees acting within the scope of their employment? Really?

Sovereign immunity cuts a pretty wide swath through tort liability. My hunch is that most incidents serious enough to exceed the scope of that immunity will also void an insurance policy.

Just my two cents. Which are worth even less.

Take care,
PB

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4055

Bit the Bullet…

I feel your pain…even from the State side of fire.

How many Oregon Department of Forestry fire personnel out there are concerned about
firefighter liability? Do you feel comfortable with the AG's opinion on the matter?

Can someone define "Gross Negligence" as it pertains to wildland firefighting?

Gross negligence is the intentional failure to perform a manifest duty in reckless disregard of the consequences as affecting the life or property of another. So, gross negligence consists of conscious and voluntary act or omission which is likely to result in grave injury when in face of clear and present danger of which alleged tortfeasor is aware. Apply this definition to anything you like as it pertains to wildland firefighting.

TD

"E704 could have been returned and worked through the night to pump out the spots. Additional engines and crews would have eliminated the hazard of a sleeping beast"

"but I find it strange that the resources weren't punched out and continued until the emergency was abated"

"Rather than focus on disengagement and other foolish concepts"

You sure assume a lot. Were you up in WA, during this incident? Do you know the availability of resources? I work for CalFire as well and we use the "foolish tactic" of disengagement all the time. Your post reeks of ego driven bravado which I would guess the administrators of this web site frown on and I am certain will cause you serious problems on the line.
\
James

I have read all the reports, McLean's book, and walked the site. When I asked a member of the investigation team why I.A. consisted of 3 people in a pickup, the reply was "You're from Calif., aren't you?" (This was not a criticism; merely a statement that the culture of rapid, overwhelming I.A. may not be the norm everywhere.)

If the Forest was short of engines, why wasn’t a local govt. (structure) engine dispatched to supplement I.A.? With an unlimited water source next to the road, the deck gun from such an engine could have taken much of the heat out of this fire when still small.

I suspect there may not have been a history of this type of cooperation/ mutual aid between the Forest and Local Govt. If this was the case, have steps been taken to remedy this attitude?

CalFire (Ret.); now local govt. Volunteer

Thus, four questions must be answered:
(1). Did Ellreese have a duty and what, specifically was it?
(2). Was there a demonstrable series of actions on the part of Ellreese that constituted a breach
of his legal duty to those under his command?
(3). What damages were incurred as a result of Ellreese's alleged breach of duty?
(4). This is the tough one: It must be proven that the actions, or lack thereof, by Ellreese actually
caused the damages being alleged.

Gross Negligence is basically negligence on steroids, to put it simply.

I hope this helps.

Nomad

It's the one and only Ab, me. I'm commenting on a pattern that I have never seen in the jobs posted on the 0462 series, ie almost the entire first page of 0462 all being non FS jobs. Thanks for the clarification. I'd still like to know why the pattern exists. Ab.

do the more outraged families realize that Ellreese going to jail may have a
negative impact on fire fighter safety?

No they don't. They see it as forcing a bunch of cowboys (not my term, I have
seen one of the families or Cantwell use that term) to behave more responsibly
expecting it might save some other parent from suffering the way they are. Remember,
their fire experience is limited to Thirty Mile and various sources of training materials.

If you look at fire fighting training material and the 10 and 18 with no fire experience,
fire suppression looks fairly black and white. The investigation report was pretty
black and white also. So in their minds, they can see no reason why Ellreese made
the decisions that he made

Unfortunately, I believe that Ellreese is also going to have to pay for mistakes that
the Agency made in the investigation and with how it was presented to the families.

Remember that PL 107 is an outgrowth from comments made about their loved
ones who died. PL 107 would not be around if the investigation would have at least
made an attempt cover the two potential scenarios: about if Ellreese did or didn't say
"come off the rocks". (Rather than conducting the investigation in complete secrecy,
if they had checked their conclusions or at least the controversial ones with the crew
members before going public with the report, imagine where we would be now.)

Hopefully the Agency will learn from its mistakes.

Big Smooth

If no one said "come off the rocks", why did the one female firefighter who was on the rocks --and went down to the road before the fire blew through-- decide to go down, thereby saving her own life? Just wondering. Ab.

Again, let me ask why so many of the Series 0462 (forestry techs) are BLM jobs, which have largely been 0455 (range techs)? Same with 0401 (biologists); now that makes a bit more sense since DOI agencies had lead on that whole fiasco following Storm King and most of those that were FS offerings were frozen.

Take a look at the jobs pages. "Forestry techs" are being hired by BIA, BLM, NPS, FWS? This used to be a Forest Service firefighting job series at least in higher numbers than now. What's up? Or did DOI just figure out how to get positioned on the search engines? Or has the FS shot itself in the foot regarding the firefighting job market... Locally, in the past few months I've had 2 excellent young people ask why it's so hard to find FS firefighting jobs...

Ab.

I think you answered your own question when you say your FMO and friends back HOME.
Good luck and stay safe.

smokeater

I can hear the frustration in your post. Is it that management is setting you up for failure or are they actually setting you up for success? A lot depends on management styles. There are many different management styles.

Could management actually be allowing you to make decisions and be trying to mold you into that leadership role or hanging you out to dry? There are many supervisors that “micro manage” and many that are just too “lackadaisical”. Unfortunately it is difficult to find the perfect mix. I have found that the best leaders just don’t require much supervision. This is not to be confused with management and that is where the support needs to come from. Moving from the firefighter ranks to the Engine Captain ranks is a big step. I think there are too many reasons to determine why task books may or may not be certified at a certain time (fire type, quality of assignment, assignment length and location, policy etc). The role of a GS-7 Engineer and GS-8 Captain on a Type III engine is huge. Back when Region 5 upgraded these positions it was classified that these are very complex positions and required highly qualified and highly experienced people and would require minimal supervision. It might be that you are acting in the position as it was intended.

In this time of all the retention and recruitment problems I have to ask, is training and the allowance of additional training assignments being provided? There are many supervisors that just won’t allow people take assignments and this is hurting our organizations.

If it is information that you need don’t hesitate to use this forum.

Give it time…. Task books are very subjective and every manager wants to be assured that when they sign that final evaluator’s block, that you are ready to take everything that is dealt.

Happy Trails

I transferred to the BLM out here (Cali) last year and started at the same time with my captain, who has since left and gone off to bigger and better things, (which I don't blame him for). His leaving has made me acting supervisor of my crew. Since mid-March, we have been without a captain which has placed our engine out of service. My seasonals are now on, and I'm in the process of getting them their fire refresher, and 130/190, and doing other stuff in the process. I have received little or no help from management. There's been a lack of information sent to me in a timely manner. Right now I'm doing my best, with thanks to my crew from R-3 who taught me well. But right now, I have to make a decision.

I have been offered to lateral back home to R-3 BLM. I would like to stay in Cali, I've gotten used to the area, we have a new engine, I like being on a T-3, along with the other perks that I can't do back in R-3. But when your engine is out of service because you have no captain, and you have your engine boss/ crew boss task book completed and it just needs the final signature, you turn it in, only for it to be given back to you and told that you have not been in Cali long enough, and to wait until fall for a signature, that just brings down morale and makes one think. So for now, I will sign the R3 offer and fax it back. I still have a lot to do to get my folks prepared and get our ducks in a row, with our national review coming up at the end of the month. Then will see what comes after the review, if management well finally see that I'm not some dummy from R-3. If nothing changes after the review, then I will have no choice but to return to R-3.

So do I leave, and leave this crew without both an engineer and captain, or do I stay and let down my FMO and friends back home?

I am not sure at this point, only time well tell at the end of the month.

Why do we need ANOTHER committee to tell the region and the agency what
we've been telling them for years, OUR FACILITIES ARE DETERIORATING
AND THERE IS NO SHORT TERM FIX. I'm so tired of new committees
looking at the same old issues and nothing ever happening. If we are to maintain
a "budget neutral" fix then are we really going to see any changes or is this just
another resume builder for some of our out of touch higher ups. You know we
could flood the inboxes of the groups and let them know what we think but are
they going to listen is the real question.

ME

Have you seen the letter below? Have you been asked for comments on the facilities you work at
or manage? Have you been allowed to be a part of the discussion and provide input on this?

This is your Retention Facilities Work Group..... at work.

Demand to be heard! I would suggest you flood some inboxes about right now on your issues If you
think these Work Groups will be working for us for the next 10 years, your wrong. We would be
lucky if they're still in place 10 weeks from now.

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

While you're at it, take some photos/videos of the "facilities" and send them in if you like. Condition of facilities is one issue. There's no way to demonstrate the lack of facilities, but this lack is one of the big issues with retention and recruitment. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: April 29, 2008
Subject: Fire Facilities
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors

The Region has recently stood up four work groups to address key areas impacting the ability to perform our fire mission. These four groups include Pay and Retention, Mission, Workplace, and Facilities. With regard to the Facilities Work Group, headed by Ed Cole, they are currently developing options leading to an overall strategy to address Region 5 Fire Facility (including quarters) deficiencies, which impact the fire mission, and result in a negative impact on retention.

To most effectively and expeditiously identify needs and implement remedies in line with our projected needs, their efforts have been split into two parallel approaches; short-term, and long-term issues. The “short-term” issues are those which have a current, direct impact on the safety of personnel and/or are having a distinct negative impact on the ability to perform the current Fire Support mission. The long-term issues shall address those issues that are of strategic nature in terms of identifying the type, number, and location of fire support assets necessary, to successfully execute both the current, and projected regional fire support mission.

Addressing the short-term issues, they will commence by gathering data which accurately identifies short-term issues across the region, and develop a means to prioritize and rectify as soon as possible. To gather the short-term data, I am tasking each Forest Supervisor to ensure input in the following categories is provided in enclosure (1), as gathered from the appropriate members of your staff. These short term issues, as described above, should be limited in scope, with the ability to be rectified quickly with the appropriate resources, resulting in an immediate visible or quantifiable difference. Provide your input within two weeks directly to Ed Cole, or no later than May 12, 2008.

1. Health & Safety, i.e. FAD asbestos, water contamination, vermin/vector control,
electrical hazards, heating system failures, lack of weatherproof integrity, food
preparation & storage, etc.
2. Mission, i.e. communication system failures/inadequacies (phones, computers),
vehicle protection, exercise facilities, power generation, etc.

The input should consist of 3 prioritized items per category, include cost estimates utilizing “Means”, and draw upon data from recent safety inspections and INFRA, as well as staff input.

This information will then be categorized into common groupings. The group will also be looking at all available resources in order to rectify the short-term issues as quickly as possible. Future correspondence will outline the details regarding the approach and proposed remedies regarding the “long term” issues.

/s/ James M. Peña
JAMES M. PEÑA
Deputy Regional Forester

Enclosure: (1) Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues
cc: Edward Cole

Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues

Health & Safety
1.)
2.)
3.)

Mission
1.)
2.)
3.)

Q1: Do you have assigned facility site managers at each of the fire facilities to address day-to-day facility and housekeeping needs?
Yes____ No____
Comments:

Q2: Do you have a published Forest policy addressing housekeeping at these facilities, and to hold personnel accountable in the event of facility damage beyond routine wear and tear?
Yes____ No____
Comments:

Thank you for your steadfast and resolute support for the firefighters around the country.
Like the climb up a steep ridge, you do it one foot at a time.

Your words about families and feelings really hit home. It is difficult to find meaning in
these tragic losses other then hurt and pain. Healing does not come in courtroom. Like
you, I wish peace for each member of the families who lost a loved one. Making the
journey to Idaho might be the first step in that process.

Wildman

One of the biggest problems with mathematical modeling of fire behavior is the use of "constants" in an ever evolving equation.

Recently, two researchers (one from Europe and one from the US) began studying the variables that were left out of the Rothermel 1972 equation because they were too hard to quantify at the time.

From those two initial researchers, nearly two dozen scientists and practitioners of fire behavior world-wide have started to study (and try to explain) "momentum" or "exponential growth" to describe blow-up (eruptive growth) fire behavior.

While it may seem trivial, chains per hour vs. acres per hour cannot be properly calculated or discussed without fully announcing that there are known errors in every model, table, or job aid that folks are often relying upon for safety and decision making.

Case in point: Often, the Rothermel adapted equations used in Behave (et al) often over predict rates of spread in NFFL fuel model 4. Conversely, in several well documented tragedy fires (Europe, US, and Australia), the Rothermel model under predicted rates of spread more than ten fold.

Dr. D.X. Villegas (Europe) and Dr. Jo Ann Fites (US)... as well as countless other scientists and fire behavior practitioners are working on the problem. One of the first HSU capstone projects was able to recreate the observed rate of spread and acreage gain on a past fire (Louisiana, CA-BDF, 2002) and apply the research of Dr. Villegas and Dr. Fites in a real world, predictive services setting for wildland firefighter safety. It is just a baby step forward....... but if Forestry Technicians can grasp the concept and do the math.... go figure. It isn't rocket science..... it's Fire Science.

We can do better in keeping our folks safer.

Gizmo

Reading most of the comments about FLAME and CPS started me thinking of how to describe the differences between the two concepts. Most of the fire behavior models do not address the human factors that are responsible for distractions and loss of situational awareness. CPS begins with the ethics of a successful firefighter. This information comes from Hotshot crew leaders who have excellent safety records. What is their attitude and what are the ethics that guide them?

Knowing fire modeling or other methods of predicting fire behavior are not going to prevent fire behavior related accidents. Attitude and an ethical approach to suppression action are needed. Some have it and some don't and have paid a price for the lack of proper ethics. It shouldn't be separated from fire behavior training.
Realizing that a good mission and vision statement was necessary for successful long-term firefighting I included it into the CPS class.

Another difference is in the reliability of fire behavior models to make predictions that are relevant to the tactical actions on wildland fires. During my years as an Operations Section Chief and I.C. on initial attacks and large fires, calculating rate of spread and flame length were not useful to tacticians. What is needed are certain perimeter lines where the fire behavior, fuel density and steepness of slope are within the threshold of control for the resources available. Areas where there are reasonable expectations of successful suppression are identified and directly affect the tactical plan. The best guides that I have found over the years are the actual fire behavior signatures that are the ground truth. Understanding the cause of variations in fire behavior is the key to predicting where these causes will host replications of the variations in fire behavior (signatures).

CPS is designed for working firefighters based on experience in the field. It is a logical system focusing on what is useful and necessary to be a safer fire fighter.

The course outline is included here to help understand what CPS is all about.

Wildland Fire Signature Prediction Methods
8 to16 hour course

INSTRUCTOR OBJECTIVES:
To present the elements of wildland fire experience
A segment of human factors, ethics and mission and vision of a firefighter.
How to use Logic, Information and Language on the fireground.
How to gain successful outcomes on wildland fires.

STUDENT OBJECTIVES:
Students will pass the pre-test with less than 6 incorrect answers.
Students will participate in classroom discussions.

OUTLINE:
      Pre-class study guide.
·      Mission, Vision and the ethics of a successful firefighter, the human factors segment.
·      How fuels are really dried, how fast and how much.
·      How to describe a wildland fire and know if it is getting worse or easier.
·      Fire modeling and logic model uses
·      What to do when meeting a wildland fire
·      Scientific concepts, tools and applications
·      The alignment of forces concept.
·      Fire situation exercises using solid terrain models.
·      Course summary
·      Final test
·      Course evaluation

Submitted by
Doug Campbell

Thanks, Doug. I knew your program was considering firefighter ethics years ago. Visionary. Ab.

All,

Although I was pleased to hear that prosecutors have dropped all felony charges against Ellreese in return for guilty pleas on two federal misdemeanor counts, I don’t think that celebrations or congratulations are appropriate. As I understand it, Ellreese could still face time in jail under this agreement.

A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland firefighters to view future investigations, FLAs, and APAs as witch hunts. Even self-reported errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If personal liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open and honest testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the well dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator of things to come.

James Reason says that in order to have a true safety culture in a large organization like the USFS, you must first foster a “reporting culture” in which people feel empowered to openly share information, which may include admissions of personal error, for the greater good of the organization. But before you can have a reporting culture, you must first establish a “just culture” in which people can feel confident that recorded statements about what they saw and did on the fireline will not be unfairly used against them.

All wildland firefighters are the losers in this case. We lose the ability to have open discourse about accidents and near misses, which diminishes our ability to learn and share lessons from these incidents, which makes all of us less safe.

In the years since Thirtymile, I have participated in dozens of wildland fire safety discussions in which someone has referenced some aspect of the Thirtymile Fire to illustrate a particular point. I would venture to say that it is likely that there are firefighters alive today because lessons they learned from the Thirtymile Fire helped keep them out of harm’s way.

It makes me sad to see that some of the Thirtymile families are still calling for Ellreese’s punishment. I wonder if they understand that if Ellreese goes to jail, more firefighters will quit sharing important lessons, the kind of lessons that could save future firefighters from experiencing what their children faced at Thirtymile.

I wonder too if the families realize how much the wildland fire community reveres the memories of their children, our fallen comrades. We also feel cheated because these fine young people didn’t get a chance to accomplish all of the great things we know they were capable of doing. Jessica, Devin, Tom, and Karen will remain alive in our memories for as long as firefighters fight fire. That lonely rockslide on the Chewuch River has become hallowed ground for us.

Misery Whip

That's a picture of a Warthog Pin, alright. There's been 3 'Keepers of the Pins' over the years. The 'Keepers' give out the pins at fires when they work with folks who perform according to 'Warthog principles': SH$T Principle (as described in the earlier post), etc.......... Every once and awhile there will be a reunion for all Warthogs to come together and party (I didnt say 'celebrate'); most of these lately have been retirement gigs.

The Rambob

On the Engines 20 photo page and Handcrews 23 photo page:

Southern Fire 1 & 2: Photos from the Southern Fire, March 22-24, 2008. This was west of Phoenix near the City of Avondale, burning in the Gila River bottom. I believe the Phoenix Fire automatic aid system worked this as a second alarm brush on the 22nd, then turned it over to BLM and Arizona State Forestry. Units from the Central Arizona Wildland Response Team, other Arizona FDs, BLM, and Arizona Dept. of Corrections hand crews worked it on the 23 and 24th, contained at 200 acres. Photos compliments of Todd F. (0408)

AZ E-362: Photo of a crewmember from Arizona State Engine 362 on the Middle Fork Complex, Boise NF. August 2007. Photo compliments of AZfirefighter (TF0408)

www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005120535

Report renews questions about helicopter crash
Accident claimed the life of former valley resident, pilot Quin R. Stone

By JASON KAUFFMAN
Express Staff Writer

A report released in March calls into question a prior conclusion citing pilot error as the cause of a August 2006 helicopter crash that claimed the life of a former Hulen Meadows man.

Quin R. Stone, 42, most recently of Emmett, was the pilot of the Eurocopter A Star 350 B-3 helicopter that went down Aug. 13, 2006, in the Payette National Forest during a fire-fighting mission. Stone, who grew up in the Hulen Meadows subdivision north of Ketchum, was killed along with firefighters Lillian Patten, 34, of Olympia, Wash.; Michael Gene Lewis, 37, of Cascade; and Monica Lee Zajanc, 27, of Boise.

An earlier report, questioned by Stone's friends and family, was released in June 2007 by the National Transportation Safety Board and claimed that intentional low-altitude flight was the cause of the helicopter crash that killed the crew.

The accident occurred about 18 miles west of the remote hamlet of Yellow Pine. Stone was flying the firefighters to the Krassel Guard Station in support of fire-fighting activities.

But in the new report released by David Rupert of R.J. Waldron & Co., a company based in British Columbia that investigates aircraft accidents, investigators claim the accident was actually caused by the loss of 5-gallon water containers and refuse from the right side of the helicopter's cargo basket. [more of this interesting article at the link]

My name is Aaron Long and I am writing from ABC's Extreme
Makeover: Home Edition. We are hoping to build a home for a
heroic firefighter in our upcoming season. I have attached a flyer
that includes the appropriate email address to send nominations.
Feel free to contact me with any questions. All family nominations
should be sent to:

extremefamilycasting@gmail.com

Aaron Long
EMHE: Family Casting

I sent out a number of private email messages and made some phone calls, but evidently Aaron wants the message spread widely and posting it here is fine. If anyone has questions or clarifications, email and I will contact him with questions if appropriate.

Here's a link to the nomination FLYER.

If we can get a wildland firefighter family nominated, Extreme Makeover will highlight the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which as Melissa and Burk say "would be AWESOME!" National TV exposure would help gain recognition for the work our WFF does every year in protecting our families in times of crisis. This alone would be a tremendous gift to our whole wildland firefighting community. Please share any and all ideas you have for nominees. We'll keep it behind the scenes. Ab.

Technically (because I am a geek)

There are two things that influence your location on the earth as defined by a coordinate- the coordinate system used and the datum.

Let's take an orange as an example- so the whole orange is the earth.

Coordinate system- when you peel the peel off the orange and smoosh it on the table- the shape of how you smoosh it is the coordinate system. Examples are leaving it unsmooshed- geographic coordinate system (lat/long), smooshing it into a square- UTM (military based- universal transverse mercator), or in the state's version- Teale Albers.

Datum- the actual shape of the earth as defined by a mathematical model- so a mandarin orange is a different shape than a navel orange. So even if we smooshed them the same (coordinate system) after the smooshing they will be different b/c they started out a different shape.

California State organizations in 2006 were typically using the North American Datum (NAD) from 1927- the federal agencies tend to use the North American Datum from 1983 (something about better math :-P).

In California the difference between the two data points is typically approximately 100 meters. The closer you get to the center of the US the less the difference. If you go to Hawaii, it's about 400 meters I believe. This does not take into account if you are using two different projections -- locations from different projections need to be converted before comparison.

And there is more than you EVER wished to know about why the state is telling the feds something and because one is using NAD83 and the other is NAD27... well it just isn't the same place.

A dork who instructs on this stuff regularly,

GISgirl

p.s. and just for the record WGS84 (what all helicopter people tend to use) and NAD83 are so close mathematically that the difference is negligible.

p.p.s. for all those with kids, get the book "there's a map on my lap" it is the best- I use it to teach all my managers

Forest Service standard is NAD83; use degrees, decimals, minutes.
Wildcad should be in NAD83.
CALFIRE uses Albers; this may be different from Nad83 by as much as 30 mi.

Got GPS?

Pyro5755,

I retired last June but I still A.D. and I still care.

hotshot75

I would like to see this letter evaluated by the firefighters who visit this site to learn and offer their own insights on the issues that affect us all.

I'll start with the 4th paragraph:

All firefighters, especially leaders of firefighters, must be lifelong students of fire behavior and human behavior. In our dynamic, complex and hazardous environment, understanding both is critical to meeting our operational objectives safely. The Forest Service relies on the judgment of firefighters on-scene and we always will. Therefore, our focus must be on the training and development of our fireline leadership and continuous monitoring and critique of our actions. We recognize the weakness of ‘group think’ and encourage each other to use our individual reasoning along with our collective courage in every decision every day. We understand that true safety lies in embracing the lessons learned from our tragedies, near misses and success stories.

This is what we have been saying for years, Tom, welcome aboard.

To truly be students of fire and human behavior, we need to have the training that is relevant to these disciplines. The fire behavior part has been fairly competent but up to only a few years ago have we been give actual leadership courses and these don't even count toward any position qualifications, ie, GS-401 series positions, though they do count towards Red Card quals. Weird how that one works isn't it?

The way to fix this is to establish a Wildland Firefighter series and get rid of the antiquated Forestry Aid and Tech position classifications.

Establish which college courses are out there that fit a Firefighter classification. Leadership, Management, Emergency Personnel Management, Fire Officer, EMT and Paramedic courses and the like. They are already established but FS personnel get no credit for these because they don't equate to natural resource courses. I have had employees with 4 year degrees in Fire Services Administration that could only qualify for a GS-5 Senior Firefighter position because they had firefighter experience and worked on the family ranch. This is absurd.

If we wanted to be Foresters we would have gone to Forestry school. We want to be Fire Leaders and Managers so, we need to go to Fire Leader and Manager school. It's pretty simple. OPM will do whatever the Agencies ask them to do; they have no ownership in the GS Forestry Tech. series; they only care about the qualifications the FS and other agencies are requiring for whatever position is needed.

I am sure with the support of agency "leadership" colleges would be very happy to modify Emergency Management courses to better fit the need of those professional emergency responders who specialize in the area of Wildland and Urban Interface response, ie, Forestry Range Techs.

As far as the "lifelong students" part goes, we cannot send our TEMPS to training in the off season under the current personnel regs; we can't even sign them up as volunteers and pay for their room and board and courses.

Might want to fix that while you are at it.

It's time to "fish or cut bait".

Thread with Harbour's letter: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4007 Ab.

Understanding human factors is key.

Understanding fire behavior is key.

Both of these relate to firefighter training and experience and to the retention of our best trained and most experienced firefighters and dismissal or sidelining of those who don't make grade.

Most important, however, are cultural and organizational factors (predictable patterns inherent in the Forest Service or 4 DOI agencies) that may be causal of this accident or others. In my opinion, latent factors that must be addressed include

• RETENTION of EXPERIENCED WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS, and
• LINE  OFFICERS'  SUPERVISION of firefighters, even if only by exercising their "Commanders Intent" and managing the firefighting budget so as to put safety first regardless of political pressures.

If the Firefighting Agencies' cultural and organizational factors are not identified and mitigated, they're likely to enable another accident. Hopefully the new just culture / lessons learned approaches to accident analysis will foster our understanding of ALL THREE categories of factors leading to tragedy and all will be mitigated.

If it's predictable, it's preventable. Some things are more predictable than others.

Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
U.S. Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management

Message from the Director
May 1, 2008

harbour-on-30mi-050108.doc

Text below:

On April 29, 2008 the case USA v. Ellreese N. Daniels was legally settled with a plea agreement. Now we must personally resolve our own questions and issues related to the last seven years and the developments surrounding the Thirtymile Fire.

On July 10, 2001, four Forest Service wildland firefighters; Tom Craven, Karen FitzPatrick, Jessica Johnson and Devin Weaver died in the line of duty. To remember them always, we offer the highest form of respect that the Forest Service can pay to our fallen firefighters by embracing the painful lessons we learned from this tragedy and incorporating this learning into our every decision. By using the knowledge we gained, we better manage the risks and protect each other in the inherently dangerous world of wildland firefighting.

In 2006, the Chief of the Forest Service affirmed the foundational principles that are to guide all fire suppression efforts. The first principle describes our operational environment: “The Forest Service believes that no resource or facility is worth the loss of human life. We acknowledge that the wildland firefighting environment is dangerous because its complexity may make events and circumstances difficult or impossible to foresee. We will aggressively and continuously manage risks toward a goal of zero serious injuries or fatalities.”

All firefighters, especially leaders of firefighters, must be lifelong students of fire behavior and human behavior. In our dynamic, complex and hazardous environment, understanding both is critical to meeting our operational objectives safely. The Forest Service relies on the judgment of firefighters on-scene and we always will. Therefore, our focus must be on the training and development of our fireline leadership and continuous monitoring and critique of our actions. We recognize the weakness of ‘group think’ and encourage each other to use our individual reasoning along with our collective courage in every decision every day. We understand that true safety lies in embracing the lessons learned from our tragedies, near misses and success stories.

I want us, as unique individuals that comprise the whole firefighting community, to be personally resolved to offer the highest tribute we can pay to our fallen colleagues and friends by reading, learning, participating in, and teaching the lessons we have learned from our past.

Stay vigilant, watch over each other and be safe.

Tom Harbour, Director
Forest Service Fire and Aviation Management

Thanks for your good work, Heather. Thanks the other participants from all of us. Ab.

Tim

Thanks Tim. I put them on the Fire 36 photo page and on the Trigo Fire hotlist thread. Ab

anonymous in my wallow, aka warthog

I'm a free lance writer in Bellingham WA trying to put together a piece
on the aftermath of the Ellreese Daniels fiasco. From reading the headlines
at wildlandfire.com, I gather there's been a significant problem in recruiting
and more importantly, experienced firefighters leaving the Service.

What can you tell me about it? I like getting the views of the line people
or recent knowledgeable retirees rather than the company pitch from DC.

I'm also interested in following up on the budget cuts problem, referred to
on your home page. I've been talking with state DNR people who're worried
that their own wildland firefighting will be squeezed with the federal
cuts.

You got a take on that? Any other contacts you could suggest?

Thanks,

Bob Simmons
Bellingham WA
(360) 752-0803

Any firefighter retirees or firefighter managers, groundpounders, etc who'd like to help Bob out? Ab.

Casey,

What are you hearing about p to p? Any update? Rumors are that another
strong push is coming soon for it and support is going daily. Any thoughts?

ms

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Mr. Chavez:

Thank you for writing to me to share your concerns about U.S. Forest Service retention issues. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this important issue, and I welcome the opportunity to respond.

Like you, I am troubled by the high attrition rate of Forest Service firefighters, particularly in California. The retention issues currently facing the Forest Service could reduce the number of available responders, damage morale and jeopardize the agency's firefighting mission. The lives and property of many Californians are also at stake. The retention issue must be promptly addressed to ensure that the Forest Service has an adequate and professional firefighting force.

On April 1, 2008, the Undersecretary for Natural Resources and Environment at the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Mark Rey, and the Forest Service Chief, Gail Kimbell, appeared before me and the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on the Interior, Environment and Related Agencies to discuss the fiscal year 2009 Forest Service budget request and report on retention issues. I remain concerned that the Administration's budget is inadequate and would compromise firefighter readiness.

I also believe that the recent Forest Service report failed to acknowledge the serious challenges the agency faces in fully staffing its Southern California firefighting corps. As you may know, on April 10, 2008, I sent a letter to Undersecretary Rey and Chief Kimbell urging the development of a concrete retention plan that provides short-term and long-term solutions for filling critical firefighting vacancies and improves morale. Please know that I share your concern and will keep your thoughts in mind as I continue working to address the retention issues facing the U.S. Forest Service.

Again, thank you for writing. For your review, I have included the text of my letter to Undersecretary Rey and Chief Kimbell. If you have any additional questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841.

Best regards.

Diane Feinstein

I posted this letter earlier; if you want to read it, search the archives. Ab