72 hour Expanded Report, Dutch Creek Incident; Iron Complex; Shasta-Trinity NF, Region 5, July 25, 2008

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=27369

I know in my district alone, a lot of positions (like probably 95%, i have not done the exact math) were filled by our own 5's and 6's (PROMOTION/already a 5 and got the developmental position) and the only 7 spot was filled by someone who seems (at least on paper, we have not met him yet due to the drug testing hold back) to be a competent, yet engine boss unqualified! (smell an underqualification here, i know you don't have to have it to get the job, but i think it's quite funny that you must to take a "detail") firefighter.

I really am enjoying the stats that everyone are posting as far as nitty gritty #'s etc.. I would encourage everyone with the knowledge to collaborate and let's get a break down of #'s of spots filled/available etc....... and really break it down to each forest/district and we can do our own math and with some good solid #'s to present this to Casey and the wonderful folks of the FWFSA for them to use in upcoming "BATTLES"

just a thought,

Lovin the Lake

FWFSA and Casey have been collecting. Ab.

The pavilion can seat more than 1,000 people, which may be necessary because Andy has deep connections in both Port Townsend and Port Angeles.

As a fallen firefighter, a large number of emergency services personnel from around the region are expected to attend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a really nice article about Andy with pictures.

Sammie

Condolences, Cathie. Please let your friends know we are grieving as well. Ab.

7 Forest Service Type 3 Engines
3...7 day engines
3...5 day engines
1 unstaffed

Vacancies
1 GS 11 FMO
1 GS 8 SFEO
3 GS 7 FEO
2 GS 6 AFEO

18 GS 5 senior firefighter positions. ( we have a some new GS 5 apprentices,
GS 4 apprentices and a quite few SCEPs all great employees.)

Casey,

I have seen the data published by Jim Pena and have run the numbers on my forest. When you do the math without all the vacant GS 5 Senior Firefighter positions the numbers are pretty close. When you include all the vacant GS 5 Senior Firefighter positions the percentage of positions filled is about 68%. Senator Feinstein and Congress would be shocked to discover the true number of vacant jobs. The jobs they did fill are with under qualified employees. Jim may argue the GS 5's are filled with apprentices but until they convert the spot is vacant. Jim Pena is doing the firefighters of the USFS a great dis-service by changing the imput data and excluding all the vacant GS 5 Senior Firefighter positions. Thank you for getting the message out that the numbers are incorrect the data is tainted.

CA FF

Here is the link to part two

www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-wildfires29-2008jul29,0,4296840,full.story

Oceanfire

Green Sheet As I recall, it was quite dramatic. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20250

Message from the Secretary:
Each year, USDA's brave men and women in the
Forest Service battle wildfires to protect both public and private property
and ensure the continuation of our Nation's forests as ecological and
recreational centers. Over this past weekend, two gentlemen tragically lost
their lives assisting the Forest Service in its mission. While neither was
a direct member of the USDA family, each was working side-by-side with our
employees to battle wildfires in California.

On July 25, while securing a fire line on the
Eagle Fire in California, Olympic National Park Firefighter Andrew Palmer
died from injuries suffered during mop-up activities. Mr. Palmer, who was
based out of Port Angeles, Washington, was only 18 at the time of his
death. On July 26, a fire suppression team was scouting the Panther Fire,
also in California, in preparation for the team to take over fire fighting
activities the next day. One of the team members lost his life when he was
overrun by the fire front. The probable victim has been identified as
Daniel Packer, Chief of East Pierce County Fire and Rescue in Bonney Lake,
Washington. He was 49.

In honor and memory of these brave gentlemen,
flags at USDA are being flown at half mast from dusk on July 28 until
sundown on August 2. Please keep them in your thoughts and prayers, and
join with me in extending my deepest gratitude and most heartfelt sympathy
to their families.

Thanks, Groundpig. Ab.

To: Geographic Area Coordinating Group Chairs
From: National Multi Agency Coordinating Group
Subject: Safety Stand Down: August 1st

Two fatalities occurred over the weekend in two separate Northern California fires. A recent spike in accident/injury trends has also created concerns for firefighter safety. To date we have exceeded the number of deaths in wildland fire operations for 2008 that we experienced during all of 2007. In an effort to draw attention to wildland firefighter safety, NMAC is requesting that all geographic areas take one hour during the operational period of August 1st to emphasize safety practices.
Firefighter safety is and continues to be our first priority. The commitment to and accountability for safety is a joint responsibility of all firefighters, managers, and administrators. Individuals must be responsible for their own performance and accountability.

Suggested areas of emphasis are:

• Primary means of safe wildland fire operations is through aggressive risk management.
• Consistently evaluate fireline tactics and adjust tactics as environmental and human factor conditions change—Review Risk Management Process in the IRPG, Page 1.
• Exercise extreme caution when working in timber canopy areas—assume every tree has some level of hazard associated with it. Review “PRINCIPLES OF HAZARD TREE RISK MANAGEMENT” at: www.nwcg.gov/teams/shwt/httf/training_education/s212/ht-risk-mgmt.pdf
• Driving standards and limitations need to be applied and enforced. Drivers should not be exceeding 10 hours behind the wheel driving time (state CDL limitations may be more stringent). This applies to all drivers including agency employees, ADs, and contractors. Every effort should be made to avoid driving between 2200 and 0500 hours.
• Dehydration and Fatigue – constantly monitor firefighter’s water and electrolyte intake to avoid dehydration episodes. Dehydration and long work hours coupled with poor air quality all impact fatigue—monitor and provide rest opportunities for firefighters and support personnel.
• Avoid complacency in aviation operations and reinforce the aviation risk assessment process to increase awareness of flight hazards and risks, attention to risk mitigation, and to assert added attention to the following topics:
• Controlled Flight Into Terrain/Obstacles (especially Helo External Load)
• Hot, High, Heavy
• Maintenance Support
• Acceptance of High Risk as a Normal Operation
• Interagency Aviation Risk Assessments can be found at: www.fs.fed.us/fire/av_safety/Systems_Safety/av_risk_mgt/index.html.

For additional wildland fire safety information, please refer to: www.nifc.gov/safety.html

We ask that every fire manager take this time to emphasize firefighter safety and appropriate management of risk. We appreciate all the efforts of every firefighter and support personnel. Let’s do everything in our power to return everyone home safely this fire season.

/s/ Lyle Carlile
Chair, NMAC

(orig pdf file for printing if desired: NMAC-SafetyStandDown080108.pdf)

www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog

Man just to think no more hose pack hikes..... watch the whole vid for some
crazy stuff.

JS

The slow motion is very interesting. Ab.

The public is welcome to attend. I'll post information about apparatus/honors as it becomes available.

There is a memorial fund set up at Washington Mutual Bank - Fire Chief Dan Packer Memorial, Acct # 3170484930. Checks may be mailed to:

East Pierce Professional Firefighters, L3520
PO Box 7500
Bonney Lake, WA 98391

More info as it becomes available.

-FireBill

You betcha the FBANs have one of the toughest jobs out there, and one of the
most important to get right. And many years have gone into producing their
analysis tools. I wouldn't want to see them or the IMETs dissed, which is what
started me writing in the first place ...

Still Out There ...

The Eagle Fire - Iron Complex 24 hour Report is out from NWCG. Ab.

Thanks for the clarification, islander, and so sorry for your and your community's loss. Ab.

<snip 10 sentences... Ab.>

Why does Cal Fire keep their maps secret and the feds post them openly?

Scrape

The state is reporting the Telegraph fire here: www.fire.ca.gov/index_incidents_others.php Oh look, new map up now... (Inciweb is a fed reporting site. Sometimes it's down too.) There have been a number of requests for a briefing map for the Telegraph, showing division/branch breaks. etc. If someone has a digitized version, we'll post it. Ab.

"I get almost embarrassed when people make issues about bravery - I guess I don't see firefighting in the same light that outsiders do. There are risks, but the risks are just something I live with. when things are going a bit sideways, when they get a little dicey, I get excited instead of scared. After 23 years of doing this I still love feeling the edge. I still don't think I'll ever go off it. People like me don't die. We're too experienced, our judgment is sound, and as supervisors we are less often in the way of danger. Or if we are in the way of danger, we always know how far we can we can move from safety and still make it back."

WTF????

Blue

Blue, I think he meant this as an assumption he has had about himself and those he sees as similar in KSAs to himself. You have to admit, it's a rude awakening when you find out that when fire behaves badly or you've missed some cue, sh** happens to the best, even to excellent, highly trained and experienced firefighters. Reality Check of our human limitations! Risks must be consciously evaluated and re-evaluated... situation by situation... Ab.

Loved ones mourn fallen East Pierce fire chief
by Mike Archbold
www.thenewstribune.com/331/story/426920.html

A tight-knit family of East Pierce firefighters remembers Dan Packer as a man of compassion and strength.
As the shock of losing one of Pierce County’s most respected and well-liked fire chiefs in a California wildland fire took hold, Dan Packer’s fellow firefighters came together in grief Monday.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show
By Julie Cart and Bettina Boxall, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers, Second of five parts, July 29, 2008
www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-wildfires29-2008jul29,0,3486219.story

The bulky aircraft are reassuring sights to those in harm's way, but their use can be a needless and expensive exercise to appease politicians. Fire officials call them 'CNN drops.'

I was on assignment and didn't see the discussion regarding meteorologists until just now. The role of the Storm Prediction Center should not be confused with the role of the local forecast office or incident meteorologist.

The Storm center provides the big-picture analysis, somewhat like intelligence at NIFC provides us the big picture
of the wildland fire world. You would not make an on-the-ground decision for your division based on NIFC data. Keep in mind too, that the local forecast office is also looking fairly big-picture because they are preparing products that meet the needs of Joe who wants to go sailing today as well as you who are out on the fireline. Their spot-weather-forecasts come closer, but the IMET on the ground is much closer.

The final safety comes in using the fire-line weather observations tied with the thresholds established in the pocket cards PLUS gaining local knowledge from those who regularly work with fire in your area. Most of the IMETs I've worked with have been great, and understand the vital safety information that they are providing. Realize too, that there is still plenty to be learned and understood about weather, just as we still have plenty to learn and understand about fire behavior -- it is a developing science with no crystal balls.

Still out there as an AD ...

To the best of my knowledge: There were only 2 people involved. Both were male. Dan Packer died. The other firefighter was not physically injured. Thus, there is no firefighter in a burn unit somewhere.

That's it. Ab.

Everyone has their 1st amendment right.

However, I agree that we need to put aside who pays for structure
protection, p to p and all that stuff and take a short pause.

Letterman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From R-5 RO.

Subject: Firefighter Fatality Memorial
To: All Region 5 Employees

In the past three days, the Region has suffered two tragic accidents that resulted in the loss of two firefighters, Andrew Palmer and Daniel Packer. Firefighter Palmer was from the Olympic National Park and was assigned to the Iron Mt. Alps Fire Complex on the Shasta-Trinity National Forest. He was struck by a falling tree and died as a result of his injuries on July 25, 2008. Chief Packer was a division supervisor from the Eastern Pierce County Fire Department. He died July 26, 2008 in a fire entrapment on the Panther Fire on the Klamath National Forest.

Flags are to be flown at half staff, and employees are authorized to wear a black mourning strip on the Forest Service badge in memory of Firefighter Palmer and Chief Packer thru August 2.

I want to express my sympathy to the families, friends, and coworkers of the firefighters we have lost. These tragic losses serve as reminders of the hazardous work we engage in as we fight wildland fires. Please take time to assess your individual preparedness, but also look out for one another so we can all complete our work safely.

/s/ James M. Pena (for) Randy Moore, Regional Forester

Interim NWCG Minimum Standards for Incident Emergency Medical Services: hotlist thread
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=27034

NWCG Standards for Burn Injuries: hotlist thread
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=897

North Bay FC-

You state there are no local taxes brought in by federal lands. I don't know your background
but I am not sure how familiar you are with the PILT- Payment in Lieu (sp?) of Taxes....

"Payments in Lieu of Taxes" (or PILT) are Federal payments to local governments that help
offset losses in property taxes due to nontaxable Federal lands within their boundaries. The
key law that implements the payments is Public Law 94-565, dated October 20, 1976. This
law was rewritten and amended by Public Law 97-258 on September 13, 1982 and codified
at Chapter 69, Title 31 of the United States Code. The Law recognizes that the inability of
local governments to collect property taxes on Federally-owned land can create a financial
impact. (www.doi.gov/pilt/summary.html)

I don't know about Department of Ag but I know with DOI, the feds do recognize the local
tax situation and try and do the right thing.

take care out there and stay safe,

GISgirl

Six years gone now are an outstanding leader, a great friend and a fine young man. With the events of the last few days making room in our hearts for any more sorrow hard to find, loosing touch with the past dooms us to repeat it. Perhaps the pain of loss will give us the strength to do what is necessary to save our own lives or the life of another. Awareness is our finest tool to prevent mishaps. I took the included photograph as a tribute to the Engine 11 fellas but in reality it must be a tribute to all those who have left us on the lines.

Rob

Thanks, Rob, their loss touched me greatly as well. I added your photo to their tribute page. Ab.

This Sunday evening is a time of reflection for me. The emotion is
sadness, the thoughts are contemplative. It is surely a time to think.
Our minds are our greatest assets.

Given the wildland fire situation we are and will be facing the next couple
months, and the stresses which will surely continue, my mind turns to those
concepts we espouse in operational risk management. Leadership will come
from the exercise of correct principles. We'll continue to look to the
principles of accountability, integrity, team work, and open/continuous
communication. We'll identify hazards, risks, and mitigations. We'll
remember the key concepts of the operational risk management approach the
Chief endorsed.
-accept risk only when benefits outweigh risks
-accept no unnecessary risk
-anticipate and manage risk
-make risk decisions at the right level

As we practice these principles at beginner to advanced levels, at first
line to upper line supervisors, at type 5 to type 1 complexity, we'll be
good.

Lets take time to honor those who have perished, to continually improve,
and to recommit ourselves to supporting one another.

Tom

I have been unable to find a definition. I see reference to it from
time to time. Might this be an appropriate entry for the Glossary?
Assuming it rains again someday, and somebody has time for something
as mundane as a glossary...

My deepest condolences on the loss of the two Washington
firefighters. First time this site made me cry. What a pitiless
thing, fire.

--Shellie Taylor
Cobb Mountain, Lake County, CA

Check this thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=26993 (Thanks Jumper553, I couldn't find it.) Ab.

ms

Washington state fire chief believed dead in California blaze

www.komonews.com/news/25963444.html

Daniel Packer, chief of East Pierce Fire & Rescue and past president of the Washington Fire Chiefs, was reported missing Saturday afternoon while working on the Panther Fire south of Happy Camp in Siskiyou County, and is presumed dead.

"He (Packer) is missing, but we have not confirmed that he is dead," said Russ McCallion, battalion chief with East Pierce Fire & Rescue.

However, the U.S. Forest Service confirmed that a second firefighter has died, without releasing the identity. (more at link)

Our condolences to family, friends and co-workers. I know from what several of our community have said that he was a well known and much respected chief in the state. Please let us know about services. Ab.

• Always maintain a high level of Situational Awareness around snags, Post
  experienced lookouts double the distance the perimeter of any where the
  snag can possibly fall.
• Exercise extra care when working near trees that have been burning a long
  time and / or show signs of rot or deterioration.
• Be aware that even without "widowmakers" , snags can and do drop materials,
  or break off segments without warning.
• If material has fallen from a snag previously, it is an indicator that the
  snag is weak and may drop more material at any time !
• Limit personnel from working the snag hazard area.

I'm sure there is much more information to cover regarding snags, I just
wanted to share a few items I had, and hopefully help keep the folks out
there safe!

My sincere condolences to the Palmer family.

Pappy '81 (not the original)

Thanks to those who have continued to press for this behind the scenes. Thanks also to the others who stepped up to set it into "official" motion. Ab.

We need some good thoughts / prayers for a firefighter who has died on the CA-KNF-Panther Fire and one who may have gotten taken to the hospital. More info is here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=5978

No doubt more to come. Ab.

You don't know me, but you are in my prayers and thoughts. I too, used to be on the line... and above it most of the time. Nobody but those who have experienced the conditions we work in know what is real, and even then, we question the reality of it all at times. When nature throws its worst at us, only then does the very best come out in us. We are brothers and sisters. We are family. Our uniforms and badges mean nothing... we all look the same at the end of the day. We are one in the "good fight" for a greater cause.

As you are the families of those "on the line", you are a big part of the circle of our lives. We think of you, we miss you, we honor you in doing what we do. There is no greater love than for a human being than to give their life for another. You should be honored. You raised us to be the individuals we are. You taught us honor and respect. You taught us charity and to care for those who could not do for themselves. You taught us unconditional love beyond ourselves. You raised a hero.

We take our licks, but keep on ticking. We go without, so you can have. We give everything we have, so that you can have everything. We spend a lot of lonely nights, babysitting a fire line, on the side of a mountain hundreds of miles away from home. The silence is deafening, broken only by the sound of our own heartbeat and an occasional rabbit. It's these times we think of you. We think about why we do what we do. God only knows the thoughts that occupy our minds. A hundred different things occupy our thoughts in a brief few moments. Things change, sometimes in a heartbeat.

My Grandpa used to say that God only takes the good ones. I've spent many times wondering if this was so. I've been in many situations where I thought I'd find out real quick. One thing I've learned over the years, is that you don't question the ultimate authority. The reasoning is beyond human comprehension. I do know for a fact, that angels do indeed wear Nomex! When it's my time, I'm ready to go. I have no regrets. I've given everything I could give and I only wish I could have given more. I dream of a day when words like these never have to be written. Rejoice in the fact that your sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, are taking a stand for something that eclipses all time. They are firefighters, heroes, and angels.

Sometimes real life gets in the way of what we perceive as "real life". I've missed parties, graduations, birthdays, and anniversaries. My 40th B-day was spent filling tankers from a hydrant in rural Nebraska. I didn't care... this was what I did. Not just a job (actually, a volunteer)... but the greatest adventure I could ever have with the greatest people to share it with. It's funny, my hand was still wrapped in gauze from an accident at work... but I was there pumping water for the team. You can't imagine the feeling of contributing to the cause... even when you're not supposed to be. Yup, shame on me, but hey.... I'm a firefighter, these things don't slow us down. We always give until someone says we can't give anymore, then we go and keep giving... THAT WILL NEVER END. Again, that's who we are and what we do.

My thoughts and prayers are with you, wherever you may be. Whether enjoying a family BBQ on a summer night or sitting on a fire line, a hundred miles away from home. You are never far away from me. You see, it doesn't matter whether I'm retired or active... I'm on your crew... right now. Whether you are on the ground or in the air... I'm there too. Some call it a "brotherhood", I prefer "Family". We're all in this together, let's keep trying to make a difference. To be a bit sappy, I'd like to use a line from a really sappy movie, "NEVER GIVE UP... NEVER SURRENDER"!

Embracing each and everyone of you!

Feeding the Squirrels in Boise!

Well said my friend. Ab.

By
U.S. Forest Service Chief Abigail Kimbell
Loss of firefighter Andrew Palmer
Forest Service Press Conference
July 26, 2008

“Thanks for joining us here today. Today I’ve been here in Redding, Calif. meeting with local Forest Service officials. We’ve been focusing on the unprecedented scope of fire here in northern California, which have become more devastating with the tragic loss of Andrew Palmer, of Port Townsend, Wash., an 18 year old firefighter. Palmer was with the Olympic National Park in Washington state and his life was tragically cut short just yesterday afternoon.

“The wildland fire community is a very large organization, but in many ways it resembles a family. The loss of any member of the firefighting family has a dramatic affect on all of those who fight fire, who are involved in fire management and who work for the agency. The commitment to society demonstrated by Andrew Palmer – through his dedication and courage – will live on in the hearts and minds of his colleagues all throughout the fire community. To the Palmer family my heart goes out to you. I am so sorry for your loss.

“People are our most valuable resource and we remain committed to the safety of our firefighters. We cannot forget that there are still 12,000 firefighters continuing to work to suppress fires here in California. We’ve made great progress but much remains to be done.

“Our interagency fire teams develop strategies for fighting a fire. Fire managers continue to consider fire behavior, weather forecasts, terrain, accessibility and proximity to communities when considering fire suppression strategies.

“In spite of the extremely difficult terrain, in this part of the world, crews on these fires have done an extraordinary job. The terrain is difficult and unforgiving.

“We will really miss Andrew Palmer.

“Crews are using burnouts and other indirect firefighting techniques because of the inaccessible, rugged terrain and other hazards keeping them from the fire edge. We must consider firefighter safety in all of our tactical decisions. Firefighter and public safety will remain our number one concern.

“As I close, I ask that you keep Andrew, his family, his friends and co-workers in your thoughts and prayers. As tradition, firefighters will wear black bands around their service badge and I am asking all Forest Service officers to lower their flags to half-mast beginning today in remembrance of Andrew.”

#

This is regarding Jarred Johnson:
The accident is being investigated, and as such, preliminary information is
subject to change.

What we know for certain....is that this accident occurred in a wilderness
area; his crew stabilized, medivac'd and transported him within an hour and
were informed by late evening that he would be alright.

Jarred's "broken" vertebrae...is a compression, hairline fracture to his
thoracic region (between the shoulder blades).
He will be fitted with a brace for his torso within the next few days, to
stabilize the injury site, and facilitate healing.

To avoid confusion and misinformation, I think we need to clarify a strange
and sad coincidence:

Jarred's brother is a member of the Olympic National Park crew who lost
their Firefighter, Andrew Palmer, yesterday.
These incidents appear to have occurred within hours of one another.

It must have been a tremendous, and overwhelming day for the Johnson and
Palmer families, as it was for our entire fire community.
I praise your site for allowing privacy for the families and friends prior
to confirmed notification.
Please know that these families are sustained by the strength of your
support...and WFF, of course.

It does seem that at times like these, we are not merely a fire service,
but a service FOR one another.....when an accident occurs.
Training gives the skills and circumstance gives you the opportunity, but
knowledge gives you the confidence to take action.
No one does this job alone, together we take care of one another.

Thanks Ab.

R5Vet FF

Thanks for the clarification. Good job and carry on. We do support each other. Ab.

Jarred Johnson was hit by a widowmaker and was Life Flighted to Wenatchee. He has a broken vertebrae, but this morning has feeling in his extremities which is a very good sign. He'll likely be in the hospital for 2-3 weeks and in a body cast for longer. (The WFF -- with our donations -- is willing to pick up the cost of lodging and car rental for Jarred's folks and his brother.) Mellie

The WFF and the wildland firefighting community is supporting Jarred and his family in ways that most could not imagine.

Our prayers for a speedy recovery.

Please be safe All. Hug your loved ones. Support the WFF. It's our safety net.

Ab.

Firefighter Andrew Palmer, of the Olympic National Park, received multiple injuries yesterday while working on the Eagle fire. He passed away while being transported to Redding, California. A fund will be established by the Wildland Firefighter Foundation in Andrew’s name. The foundation is online at http://wffoundation.org/ and can be contacted by calling 877-336-2950.

Ab,

We realize that an investigation is underway on the Iron Complex, and that will likely take some time to complete. However, after talking with fallers on that incident, and taking into consideration what many other fallers have experienced this season on wildland fire incidents I believe that a strong message should go out concerning the desire to observe snag felling.

On several occasions, when our fallers were given the "all clear" sign, they discovered their cutting areas were, in fact, not completely clear of observers within harms way. One faller team even had to flush firefighters out of the nearby brush, and only detected them because their radio made some noise. This was AFTER the fallers were told the area was clear.

It's not only the snag being cut that can cause problems, but every tree within range of the target tree, because of the domino effect, secondary limb breakage, or ground rolling. These big snags in Northern California are not only huge, but extremely unstable for various reasons. Even seasoned commercial fallers with decades of saw time at the stump are having trouble with them. So, the message is, STAY CLEAR.... STAY AWAY...LISTEN AND ABIDE BY CLEAR OUT INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE FALLERS, FALLER BOSSES & TASK FORCE UNIT LEADERS. These fallers have enough on their minds without worrying that someone's hiding in the bushes just to see a tree go down.

NOTE: This message is not intended to comment on the Iron Complex fatality specifically, but to hopefully send a message to agency supervisors in the field. When you think your people are far enough away from a snag to assure their safety - double that distance again... and don't forget to look in the bushes for stow aways.

Shari Downhill

I'm posting this important safety message. I observed a near miss (not on a fire) this summer and falling safety can't be stressed too much. Ab.

Shari Downhill

It was good to hear back from Burk last night that the WFF was "on it".
Beyond condolences, my first inclination is "what can I do to help?"
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation certainly is a safety net for all of us when things go bad. Firefighting is an inherently dangerous profession. Ab.

Joy Juice was a poor choice of words on my part, sorry about that.

I don't think you answered my question regarding if Cal Fire was not getting portal to portal would it be an issue? I realize this goes back a long way in time, but is it not what made portal to portal an issue? Again, not wanting to debate the merits of portal to portal, I think it would be great if we were all getting portal to portal.

the cynic

Al Henkle

Thanks, some CalFire firefighters. I put them on the Engines 20 photo page. Ab.

Thanks, very nice flames. I put them on the Fires 38 photo page. One of those could be a contender for the 2009 Wildlandfire Calendar. Ab.

Haw Haw, "earn his pay" is an amusing phrase in this instance. Casey gets paid almost nothing. He's powered by the "joy juice". Ab.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Our thoughts and prayers are with the family, friends and fellow firefighters. Ab.

Good news. Ab.

Photos on Fires 38 photo page. Ab.

Thank you!

Margi Peterson

Thanks, I put them on the Fires 38 and Helicopters 24 photo pages. Also posted a logo of the Fuego Tech Rangers off the Angeles sent in by Anthony. It's on Logos 14. Ab.

Here are some photos of the Corral Fire on the California LMU. These were taken when my engine was called to aid CALFIRE due to major spotting on 6/28/08. That afternoon the fire had a thunder cell blow over. The fire gained 5,000 acres in less than four hours. A lot of crews had to pull off the lines to safety zones due to erratic fire conditions.

Russell H

Thanks Russell. I put the photos of the plume on the Fires 38 photo page. Photo of the firefighters on on the Handcrews 23 photo page. Ab.

These pictures were taken of the Cold Springs Fire on July 12-13. This fire is on the Mt Adams district side of the Gifford Pinchot NF. Pictures by Steph S. 'Clean Air Steph'. 4 of the photos show the bug killed timber that's fueling the fire.

-FireBill

Thanks FireBill. Readers, the photos were sent in on 7/16. Rather amazing perspective, from that of a hiker. I put them on the Fires 37 photo page. Ab.

Old green and gray guy.
You are correct about the engine /pump unit model numbering and the main
difference between the Mod 50 and 51 was that the crew was out side on the
50 and was in side the truck cab on the mod 51 (a LOT warmer in cold
weather!) Pumps where pretty much the same on both and better compartments
on the 51.

Old LPF (not so old if DOI has people with a average age of 105?)

He's referring to the last spreadsheet looking at attrition of aging firefighters in firefighting jobs by age (by Sharon A-B, the WO Risk Management/Human Performance Training Specialist, posted on 7/22.) Ab.

Ab,

You said firefighters outside of R-5 getting portal to portal may
be in the minority. I think that is probably the understatement of the
year. Who besides Cal Fire gets portal to portal? Does any one
outside of R-5 get portal to portal? Maybe the posters to this forum
could let us all know, outside of Cal Fire, who is getting portal to
portal and where are they based. Portal to Portal became an issue
with some of the feds right after the 1988 season after the experience
with them in Yellowstone. 1988, we have made a lot of progress
haven't we?

the cynic

Currently Team 9 is transitioning to Team 5 on the BTU cplx
Team 10 is on the SHU cplx
Team 7 is on call for the Northern Region
Team 8 is on normal call for the South

Teams and ICs

Northern Region

Team 1 ?
Team 2 Bob Wallen
Team 3 George Morris
Team 4 Joe Waterman
Team 5 Tim Streblow

Southern Region

Team 6 Bill Hodson
Team 7 Dale Hutchinson
Team 8 Phill Veneris
Team 9 Rick Hutchison
Team 10 Pat Kerschen

Tim Chavez

Several questions about models. R-5 FS model numbers were originally 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 with intermingled models based on improvements to the rigs over the years. For example the Model 50 was built on 1 1/2 ton flat beds and was an outgrowth of the old green hornets, hence the new designation for the 51 when it made its appearance in the late 60s early 70s.

The Model 56/58 versions made their first appearance in about 1956 and were part of the first Green and Gray rigs. The FS converted from the deep forest green to the light green and gray paint scheme in 1956 finally going all light green in 1976. The Union County rig pictured is a beauty and is a 56/58 model. The difference was that the 56 did not have the auxiliary and midship pumps as the 58 did.

Last I heard about old 6006 was that after it was taken out of service, it was slated to be cannibalized for the body to go into the recycle of bodies for the M-61. I am not sure this ever happened as that recycle program died about the same time.

Someone ask about CDF numbering system though I am not 100% positive on it but they have for the most part have done a sequencing of numbers for their models beginning with the model one. They actually had a model 4 which was similar yet smaller version of the model 1 however it was a shorter wheel base smaller tanked and 4X4. Fire geek I did see the book you referenced and its a interesting read that is for sure.

"old green and gray guy"

www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-budget24-2008jul24,0,7487129.story

Schwarzenegger plans to slash state workers' pay till budget passes

About 200,000 employees would get the federal minimum wage, saving California roughly $1 billion a month. They would receive their back pay after a spending plan is enacted.

By Evan Halper, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
5:04 PM PDT, July 23, 2008

Sacramento -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is planning to cut the pay of about 200,000 state workers to the federal minimum wage of $6.55 an hour until a budget is signed, according to a draft of the governor's order obtained by The Times.

Administration officials said Schwarzenegger is expected to sign the order early next week as part of an effort to avert a cash crisis. The controversial move, likely to be challenged in court by public-employee unions, would save the state about $1 billion a month, the officials said.

Workers would be repaid their lost earnings once a budget was in place.

The order also calls for the state to immediately lay off 19,000 part-time workers, stop overtime payments for almost all employees and cease all hiring until a budget is enacted. The deadline for passing a budget was July 1, and without one California may be unable to borrow billions of dollars needed to keep the state solvent.

"Because the Legislature has failed to pass a budget and our state does not have a rainy-day fund, this is one of a number of options we are considering to make sure we have sufficient cash to cover our costs," said administration spokesman Matt David.

Text of the order is at the link...

fair use disclaimer

Ab,

There are bad things happening to some firefighters who were working in Northern California on the big fires.
I thought a little exposure might be warranted to warn others what can happen not only there, but anywhere we go. I have been guilty of too much trust in areas like this, but fortunately without these results.
It might even be worth a thread to see if it is wide spread, or hopefully remote incident.

One of many

one email of a young firefighter whose truck was broken into and nomex, sweatshirt, leatherman etc stolen
one email about a firefighter that had nomex stolen from the washer at a laundromat

>From a Federal firefighter to another.. my suggestion to those who are GS 5-6 and are thinking about starting a family... it is Simple. Don't start until you can afford it, the Govt is not obligated to support your family, you are, they are only responsible for paying you a wage...

"Frankly a GS-08 isn't even a wage that is a starting level for most federal law enforcement outfits and somehow I wonder why my job is considered "less valuable" by HR. I realize much to my chagrin that a GS-08 is probably above average in this man's army and I wonder how many 5's and 6's have families to support."

AC

Maybe it should be a "Name Dick's New Engine" contest. Heh, I'm sure he and the family
would love that. Better his than mine! I'd probably pump it dry and wreck it by accident!

Now I AM attached to my John Deere, even have a wheelie knob and a little pink cap
with PPE. Feel free to name that! Heh.

Mellie

Just as firefighters become emotionally attached to their rigs, a lot of pilots are attached to their aircraft in the same manner. We give them names befitting of their unique personalities and handling. Most are decent, however I remember a few birds back in the 70's with names not fit to print here...and for good reason. Why is it they never scrap the bad ones?

Keep pluggin everyone, we're all in this together!

STAY SAFE!

TS

I have to share a photo of our newest non-fed "grand damme" (said with the correct hoity toity inflection).

Foam Geek, are you THE ORIGINAL Foam Geek?

Was it you I heard devised a way to fill three 100'lengths of coupled 4"
diameter structural fire hose with compressed air foam inflating it much
like a balloon. Then capping off one end when it was filled and reducing
the other end of it down to 1.5 " or 1" with a handled ball shutoff
valve? You found it actually contained enough stored energy to protect a
structure for at least 20 minutes with just the compressed air foam
squeezed into the hose. Hmmm, lessons for today? Is it not true that if
you placed one of these hoselays at each house in a subdivision and just
left one CAFS-equipped water tender to just drive around to periodically
keep the lines charged, it wouldn't require a Type I engine to be parked
in every driveway. All you'd really need is a task force of one handcrew
and a water tender to protect subdivisions? Ah, the fantastic but
do-able ideas forward thinkers come up with that could make a real
difference... And what was the year???

Mellie

1949 International: While not fed service, here's "our" engine at our place on the Iron Cplx. Mellie says, "I'm not yet attached to her (the engine) although she's classic and functional... She's very new to our family. However, check out our New River Gorge FOBS; people are clearly a different story." Photos compliments of RPE. (0708)

I put it on the Engines 20 photo page and the Fire Behavior Observer on the Handcrews 23 photo page. Ab.

Nor Cal Lightning Complex and other fire costs and locations as of July 23, 2008.
and summary of personnel/resources.

Response to Just Wondering's post below

Thanks, contributor.... Comments? Ab.

I cant say that agree with one contributors assertion that portal to portal firefighters are "in the minority". Having just demobbed from SHU Lightning Complex that I have been blessed and or cursed to have been on for 18 days I can honestly say that the enormity of Cal Fire was staggering. This agency seems to get incrementally bigger by the season and now plans are in the works for them to possible envelope Governor Ahnold's OES or Office of Emergency Services which is almost as a staggering an All Risk labor force as Cal Fire. Federal and contract workers spent nights sleeping in the fairgrounds in Anderson, CA while Monster Trucks Rallies, freight train whistle blowing, generators and floodlights, passersby and street traffic kept camp occupants from getting any real rest while the Cal Fire guys showed up each morning for briefing well rested and restaurant fed, not to mention well paid.

Although far from getting "boned" and receiving 16 hour days from the division(s) each shift I realized after speaking to one friendly chap from Cal Fire, that their gig is really a beneficial one and many federal firefighters have made the transition to a better paid, better benefit source. I can only wonder how long the federal powers that be will continue to classify me as a "Range or Forestry Tech" instead of a firefighter when that's all I do and continue to refuse to pay me while I am in camp or duty station, away from my family and suffering less than perfect rest conditions while expecting me NOT to have a couple of beers on what they carefully call "MY OWN TIME" while reserving the right to infringe upon it as soon as it becomes a liability to them.

Frankly a GS-08 isn't even a wage that is a starting level for most federal law enforcement outfits and somehow I wonder why my job is considered "less valuable" by HR. I realize much to my chagrin that a GS-08 is probably above average in this man's army and I wonder how many 5's and 6's have families to support.

AC

Outside of CA, firefighters that are operating under portal to portal pay may be in a minority. Ab.

We were directed to hire down to the Level 3 candidates, if there were no
Level 1 or Level 2 candidates available. Most forests probably made offers to
some Level 3 candidates, but I don't know how many were actually hired. On my
forest we did make recommendations to hire a few Level 3's who were later
disqualified during the HR process. We were not required to look at any Level 4's.

2. Who will train/qualify these employees while we're in the initial
stages of a stunning season start? Some FMOs are reporting that many will
not be on board until the end of the season.

Good question, and one that was asked frequently during the hiring process.
This was particularly noticeable at the GS6 and GS5/6 Developmental positions.
The Developmental Plan puts a huge burden on the forests to get these
people trained, and it may affect some apprentices when they are pushed
back in their training to accommodate the developmental AFEOs.

3. For those promoted to the GS-6 through GS-9 positions, their promotions
obviously created a vacancy at a lower grade. So how do promotions lessen
the actual number of vacancies? Maybe that's why I didn't do so well in Math.

As vacancies occurred backfill lists were created and jobs were filled down to
the 5/6 developmentals. So really the vacancies still exist but they are now
at the Apprentice Level, which aren't being counted. There were some hires from
the outside, but most of the hiring was internal. I think you do math just fine, it
was all "sleight of hand".

4. Big question: What is the region going to do to KEEP these employees?

There's the Million Dollar Question! As far as we could tell, not much. The only
incentive I could see was the Apprentice upgrade from GS4 to GS5, and it was
poorly advertised or understood. It is a good thing for the apprentice who has time
in grade as a GS4 because it really becomes a payraise for them.

5. 190 vacancies as of July 17 does not equate to Mr. Rey's assurance that
all funded positions would be staffed.

Hear, hear! We are no better off then we were April 1st. If anything we are
further behind. I think the Forest Service is going to suffer some serious growing
pains while these newly promoted personnel learn their positions. There is a lack
of depth in experience that wasn't there during MEL hiring.

Sign me, " An escapee from Fire Hire"

To paraphrase Mr. Rey, 'we are able to reduce costs through increased management efficiencies, and by moving resources to areas of need'.

/s/ Just Wondering

JP Crumrine of the Idyllwild Town Crier is looking for someone that can fill him in on the Los Padres housing issue. He's a reliable and eloquent reporter. If one of you from the LP would like to volunteer, I'm sure he'd keep you anonymous if you wish. Ab.