I think you brave folks should know about Bill Waldman's retirement. He has 38 years
in with Aero Union, and a total of 40 years flying fires. Your support has meant the
world to him.

Here's a link to the news story!

www.khsltv.com

Tankergypsie

Those tanker pilots mean the world to us, too. Wow, 38 years. Happy retirement, Bill. Ab.

http://firepirates.com/photos/4.jpg (Bill flying.)
http://firepirates.com/photos/145.jpg (Bill flying.)
http://firepirates.com/photos/odim/conniechuck.jpg (Bill on right.)

For more photos of planes and pilots, check out www.firepirates.com/ Ken our 52 club ultra-runner, Yactac, Mike, Dean Talley (also an author) are a few that I noticed... and more... Ab.

New CalFire, Former MNF CAPT

Haven't heard official word on the MNF yet if there's going to be no training,
but preliminary direction, or as I like to call it "Today's knee jerk reaction" has
been only one course and see if we can make the best of the training budget.

I guess I don't really understand the need to limit courses. If I have folks
wanting training and are willing to drive themselves/house themselves/pursue
their own career to their benefit, then I don't really understand why I can't
assist them in their development by paying for the course tuition.

When's the next CalFire round?

A replacement.

Perhaps their logic is that if there is no training CalFire will not want them? Ab.

Haw Haw, ms, too funny, you trying to raise CAIN? Ab.

The travel ceiling will make our business very hard to do, and these new regulations for no
reason, or factual basis, don't help, either.

What happened to the incentive item in the Recruitment and retention strategy submitted that
stated,

"implement a range of training changes to current training to ensure training needs
are managed fairly and effectively, and support current and future staffing needs.
This includes changes in the apprenticeship program, development of new
academies, and INCREASED use of the priority trainee program."

These new decisions do not INCREASE training opportunities, they REDUCE them.

(Ab, no name on this please)

Has anyone seen a written memo on the "No Casinos" direction? Is the BOD saying the Regional Forester must approve meetings over $20,000 or is that what they are being told is the case? Ab.

There's some lying or misrepresentation going on somewhere in the R5 RO or WO
regarding meeting places. Does anyone know where this "direction" is coming from
and why?

There's supposedly "direction" from either the R5 Regional Forester or the Washington
Office... that no meetings will be held in casinos ever again, regardless of the higher
cost of holding meetings elsewhere. (Cost doesn't matter... the RLT is meeting at the
Sheraton in Sac when McClellan is available for much cheaper!)

It is very clear that Reno is the least expensive place for some meetings that draw
firefighters from the length of CA - 45% to 50% the cost of rooms and conference
rooms - than anyplace else that's fairly central.

It's unclear that the direction "no green trucks in Casino parking lots" came from higher
up ie the WO. The WO does not seem to know anything about it, so maybe it's Regional
Forester Randy Moore or his assistant Josh Cook that hatched this "direction" for
wasting tax[payer $$. (In the back of my mind: Is it a "moral" issue?)

If it is R5 directing, the question is why? Could it be that if meeting and training costs go up
(double), then they can then make the argument that meetings will be cancelled because
"they cost too much"?

Keeping them honest...

Anniversary of fatal Loop Fire (1966) tomorrow:
www.wildlandfire.com/pics/memor/loop.jpg

Flyer sent in by RJG.

Best wishes to Gordon. Ab.

Gentlemen,

To all interested parties, there will be no Hotshot workshop this year, due
to lack of issues that need to be addressed. The Superintendents have the
right to still attend the Chief Officers workshop if you need to!
More to follow in the future for info on next year's workshop!

Thanks

Ron B
Fulton IHC Supt.

R5 HS

treeline

This award was a presidential award. That does have something to do
with the current administration.

A-76 did come from the current administration.

This is not a value judgment or a political commentary, it is reality.

Ab, I understand your desire to not let this fall into a partisan argument,
but please allow such facts to be seen.

"Public Servant"

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk-lg-fires.htm

here:

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2003_n_before/20lgst_cafires.htm

and here:

From theysaid 9/9/04 www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2004/20-lgst-ca-090904.htm

From theysaid 8/20/07 www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/20-lgst-ca-fires.htm

Strider

Also a link on the hotlist: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=7244 Ab.

Here's a link to CalFire's statistics, scroll down past the mobile Equipment summary
and it lists the largest California fires by acres burned or number of structures
destroyed. I think this is an all agency list.

www.fire.ca.gov/communications/communications_factsheets.php

viejo

Thanks viejo. I hoped someone could point us to that. Ab.

You'd be surprised at the things we/they know and the stat's and records that are kept.... a lot of them on a "AAB Base" level. If air attack was involved, we know about it. Mr. Weiss was asking for a pilot's input, I gave him the link to go. Don't you believe for a minute that the "ground" forces are the only ones to keep track of things like this.

TLS

Oh, I have no doubt the airtanker pilots know some stats, I just don't know if they have them readily available. No disrespect meant. I thought he was asking for stats from anyone that had them. Ab.

Instead, let me ask a simple question about fed agency bonuses on behalf of ALL. Does anyone know of bonuses paid to any FS Chiefs, FAM Chiefs, Regional FAM Chiefs, Regional Foresters or Forest Supervisors in the 8 years before 2000? If so, who were they? It's an empirical matter to compare the number awarded and accepted then, to the number we know about now who are accepting bonuses during a "trillion dollar deficit and screwed up economy".

Let me add. Some posters have said:

Get to the polls and VOTE on Tuesday, November 4th (not November 5th!) or get out there and vote early if you can.

Ab.

Try this link:

Associated Airtanker Pilots

If you can't find what you're looking for there, I can put you in touch
with several long-time pilots.

Tom Stein, Jr

Tom, I don't think the AT pilots know stats of all large fire sizes or number of deaths related to wildland fires. Ab.

This works better than emailing her: http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactUs.EmailMe

Shrek
Always Remember 57
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dianne Feinstein D-CA <senator@feinstein.senate.gov>

U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein
One Post Street, Suite 2450
San Francisco, CA 94104

To the Honorable Senator Dianne Feinstein:

Your continued support for Forest Service Firefighters and the citizens we protect is admirable, and your legislative initiatives demonstrates that concern.

I am however troubled with the recent awarding of Presidential Leadership Awards to Forest Service Chief Gail Kimbell and Region 5 Forester Randy Moore. These two individuals have done nothing to support our mission or help protect the citizens of California. Every opportunity they have had to help support fire and provide a cost savings to tax payers they have worked against it.

These two individuals moved fire back under the Foresters and Chief Rangers, almost all of which have no fire background or qualifications to make fire ground commands. This has placed unqualified people in a position that could cost lives and property, does this sound like great leadership that deserves a cash award larger then most of Region 5's firefighters base pay.

After your continued prodding to address the problems, Gail and Randy were to come up with a Region 5 Retention Strategy. They have missed deadline after deadline this only goes to further the fear among the ground troops that our leaders do not care about us or the citizens we protect. Does this sound like solid leadership?

Many Forest Service Firefighters have been working to collect numbers and statistics that show we have a major retention problem in California, with Southern California being hit especially hard. The continued cost to retrain firefighters every year, only for them to leave at the first chance they get, is destroying the continuity of leadership and corroding the very foundation of the Forest Service Fire Department. You can do something heroic and get no credit, while others get cash awards for just doing their jobs.

Please if you need documentation or input there are many people we can put you in contact with who are willing to help fight our Leadership.

Thank you for your concern and your untiring pursuit for the safety of Californian citizens. You have our support.

Sincerely,

Ab,

I tried looking up a couple of BLM ff from our field office and they come up,
so they must be included.

JM

Many thanks. Ab.

RF

Thanks for the reminder. Ab.

For you the FERS thing seems to be a good deal. For most in the CSRS LE/FF, we could go out @ age 50 and 20 yrs for 50% of our high 3. For people who start fire in their early 20's getting out @ 20yrs and early 50's usually worked out to 65-70% of your high 3. Also until recently we had unused sick leave tacked on for service credit, but new legislation has helped out the FERS folks on that score.

One additional note: It appears you are going to have 30 yrs of SS work which would not kick in the WEP/GPO penalty as you would have had "substantial SS earnings" which lets you off the hook even under the CSRS retirement.

I think the main thing I was trying to suggest was; under FERS if you were not watching your TSP and had exposure to the C,S & I funds and planning to retire this year; a large chunk of your retirement annuity would have been wiped out.

Fish01

What they are looking for is probably the I-suite program. It contains ITS,
the electronic timesheet program as part of the package. If you go to the
I-suite training, the software is provided for you.

Hope this helps,

-MJ

SG

Loving the Lip Service,

I would find it ironic if it wasn't FIRST and FOREMOST nauseating.
It's vertigo-esque to even think about.

Signed,

A Smoldering FF Wife

Ab,

I think this is what JS is looking for, if not it works well for us. Feel
free to put it out so everyone can use it.

Peace.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/fed/FirefighterTimeSheet_OF-288.xls (79 K xls file: excel spreadsheet)

The Geospatial Service and Technology Center (GSTC) needs your help to
allow us to move forward in the way that we produce and serve large scale
topographic maps for National Forest System lands.

Below is the link to a very short survey (takes 10 minutes or less) which
we hope will be completed by anyone who uses, or would like to use,
topographic maps in their Forest Service work.

We particularly would like to hear from folks who are involved in resource
management, inventory, or research.

We need help in distributing this notification message. Please take a few
moments and forward it on to distribution lists and individuals who can
help.

Topographic Map Survey: http://fsweb.gsc.wo.fs.fed.us/topo/index.html (FS intranet)

Dan T -WO

"Preparedness Levels 4 and 5 will be declared by a consensus of
the members of the CWCG / CALMAC (California Multi-Agency
Coordination Group). North and South Coordination Center will
contact the Chair of CWCG when conditions exist which they believe
recommend moving above Preparedness Level 3. The Chair of
CWCG will contact the members or representatives to develop
consensus on the recommendation, and report the result to the
Coordination Center."

2008 CA Mob Guide- 63.1 page 306-

"California Wildland Fire Coordinating Group (CWCG) will
consist of a representative from each agency with wildfire
suppression responsibility that has qualified personnel available
for assignment to National Teams. CWCG is responsible for
selecting team members, monitoring and evaluating team
performance, and providing for team member development."

The 410-1 MACs Procedures Guide lists members of the California
Multi-Agency Coordination (CALMAC) group which are the same member
agencies as the CWCG. The 410-1

"incorporates procedures agreed to by FIRESCOPE and
the California Wildfire Coordinating Group (CWCG) that
link the various MAC Groups in California."

The 2008-9 Direct Protection Area (DPA) update process states that

once all the proposed changes are consolidated they will be
reviewed by the CWCG and Agency directors from January
5, 2009 until February 15, 2009.

And with this research I figured it out... I heard about it when I
worked with the 2005ish DPA review and "CWCG" had to approve the
proposed changes.

GISgirl

Ab,

I would like to send out the message that the NWSA Timber Faller Chapter was approved today by the National Wildfire Suppression Association board of directors. The NWSA Timber Faller chapter will be addressing issues facing Faller Module Vendors and hazard tree fallers on wildland fires. The website established for the NWSA Timber Faller Chapter is located at: www.nwsafallers.blogspot.com. This will be the location for information about the chapter, its activities, its member companies, Steering Committee, and the Faller Module Program.

Chapter membership is open to ALL Faller Module companies nationwide that currently hold a Faller Module operating agreement in any participating region. Membership is also open to potential cutting contractors interested in seeking a Faller Module operating agreement in the future, as well as individual fallers interested in hazard tree felling employment on the fireline.

Thank you,

Shari Downhill

Nice job. NWSA link as well. Ab.

Here's the PNW Wildfire Working Group Mission and list of Working Teams:
www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/pnwcg/mission.htm

Look, here's our PNWCG list of "related links":

Geographic Area Coordinating Groups

• Alaska (AWCG)
• California (CWCG)
• Eastern Area (EACG)
• Great Basin (GBCG)
• Northern Rockies (NRCG)
• Rocky Mountain Area (RMCG)
• Southern Area (SACG)
• Southwest Area (SWCG)

roadrunner

Thanks
\
James

cwcgwatcher

The CWCG has been around for quite a few years. Among other things, it's a professional chartered fire organization that manages certain issues and aspects of Federal Incident Management Teams that originate from California. I assume each region of the country has an XWCG and that the top of that structure is NWCG.

In my opinion, there must be a well-informed professional interagency oversight organization, well steeped in federal fire regulations and human factors, that can address, research and resolve the occasional sticky issues -- issues that one federal agency alone can't address or resolve.

One example of a potential issue that was mentioned in a recent letter is nepotism (10/20), in which one member of a family works for another immediately above them. Imagine if an incident management team's planning section problems, it could seriously hinder the IMT plans section coalescing around and communicating critical incident "plans"; similarly with the other IMT sections. The organization, including chain-of-command and span-of-control, exist in ICS to facilitate good streamlined and rapid decision making under rapidly changing and often stressful conditions. Any potential lack of clarity, perceived or real, may impact safety of groundpounders, no matter how well-intentioned the family members. It's easier simply not to go there. What people contribute and share in groups is often impacted by perceptions and assumptions relating to relationships of others. Many things can hinder us from speaking up when we need to; it's "human factors". We need to have the best-working system available.

Feel free to chime in. As always, I'm looking at potential safety issues.

Mellie

Here's a few paragraphs from this document www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/cooperators/08_cfma_final.pdf (102 page pdf file) :

IV. INTERAGENCY COOPERATION

14. California Wildfire Coordinating Group (CWCG): This group shall provide
coordination and recommendations for all interagency fire management activities in
California. As a minimum, the group will consist of one representative from each
State and Federal Agency signatory to this Agreement as designated by Agency
Administrators. To facilitate representation of the Forest Service at meetings of this
group, as well as for other on-going routine issues, the Regional Forester for Region
Five (Pacific Southwest), or his/her designee, in coordination with Region Four and
Region Six, will represent all Forest Service Regions covered by this Agreement. To
facilitate representation of the Bureau of Land Management at meetings of this group,
as well as for other on-going routine issues, the BLM State Director for California, or
his/her designee, in coordination with Nevada, will represent all Bureau of Land
Management States covered by this Agreement. Membership, procedures, and
guidelines will be agreed to and documented in the CWCG Charter.

CWCG may charter interagency technical committees to study areas of concern,
including but not limited to communications, training, field operations, information
systems, dispatching, “fire prevention,” aviation, and fiscal issues.

www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/cooperators/08_cfma_final.pdf (pdf file)

noname

Thanks. I've updated the Links Page. I was told that BLM firefighters are not included on the DOI lookup list. Anyone know? Is that correct? Ab.

For Midland,

Just wanted to let him know that at least for the BLM we received
notification last week that there will no longer be an external employee
directory on the webpage. It will only list the main office telephone
number. I think it had to do with some security policy out of the
Washington Office.

Sign me

CAEcologist

Thanks for the info. Ab.

Firehorse and others

Before folks that have Federal Retirement, especially CSRS, get planning on what income
they are going to get from Social Security, they need to look into two laws: one
Government Pension Offset (GPO) and two Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP). These
two programs will greatly reduce if not eliminate any income you might get from SSI no
matter what your Social Security earnings may be. If you think these might apply to you,
get some expert advice before you depend on your future SSI income to make decisions.
A number of the employee organizations including NARFE are trying to get these changed
but at this point don't seem to be getting very far.

SWID

Firehorse,

You are correct on the reduction of your SS $$ because of your gov. pension.
Red Truck departments fall into the same reduction. (Some Calf. agencies pay
into both PERS and the SS fund and those employees will receive both benefits
at full payout). However there have been efforts in Congress (with support from
NARFE) and support from Sen. Diane Feinstein to eliminate the WEP/GPO.
Both prez candidates seem to favor a review of effects of the reductions. So
depending on your retirement age the SS income picture may improve for us as
we go to tap those funds which we, and our private sector employers have
contributed $$ to.

Fish01

All

Just a note to let you know that the National Parks and Wildlife Service
in New South Wales Australia lost one of the brothers while fighting what
the press says was a deliberately ignited fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Staff Notice 107/2008 - North Coast Fire-fighting Fatality

It is with great sadness that I write to tell you of the death of Bryce Laut during the suppression of a wildfire in Kumbatine National Park near Kempsey late yesterday afternoon.

Our staff have spent time with Bryce’s family in Canberra today and I am now in a position to be able to release information to all DECC staff. Bryce was one of four Parks and Wildlife Group officers working to put out the fire. I understand that during their efforts a burnt-out tree fell directly onto Bryce. His colleagues tried all they could to revive him.

Bryce worked with us for ten years as a Senior Ranger, Fire Management in Mid North Coast Region. He came to us from the Rural Fire Service where he had also worked for almost four years.

Bryce was one of our most experienced and senior fire-fighters. He was a respected and well liked colleague and friend to many.

Police from Mid North Coast Local Area Command are conducting inquiries into the circumstances surrounding Bryce’s death. A report will be prepared for the information of the NSW Coroner’s office. The matter has also been referred to WorkCover.

I will pass on details of Bryce's funeral when they become available.

The loss of a colleague touches us all. Each of us will have our own personal reaction to the news. I encourage you to seek the support of family and friends and to talk to our professional counseling service EAP on 1800 451 138 (24 hours).

Lisa Corbyn
Director General

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
See also the following news article
www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/27/2401674.htm

SWID

Sad news. Ab.

Thanks KSENGB. Are there also lookups for BLM, FWS and BIA? I am now missing links to those lookups on the Links Page. Thanks. Ab.

In a note to Robert, Gordon made the statement about "Triple Dipping". One of those retirements was SSI. After hearing a rumor I might receive a reduced SSI because of my Fed Retirement I did some checking into SSI retirement. Those of you that retire and plan to supplement your Fed retirement with SSI need to take heed! You receive a statement from SSI each year with your projected monthly benefits at 62, 66, etc... After meeting with an SSI person, I found out instead of receiving about $500. at 62 I will now receive about $420. at 66. This is called "Government Pension Offset" by SSI. The bottom line is the statement means nothing if you are a federal retiree.

This was both a shock and eye opener to me and my wife. I had assumed since I had worked prior to my federal appointment and have worked in the private sector since my retirement in 1999, I would have a nice SSI check each month. WRONG!

If anyone has any information (and documentation to back it up) to dispute what I was told by SSI, I would love to hear from you.

Firehorse

A former Fire Operations Supervisor for the Rock Springs, WY BLM was sentenced October 21, 2008 to one felony count of receipt of Child Pornography (case #: 07-CR-62-01B) in the US District Court of Wyoming (Cheyenne). George Aitchison was arrested by the FBI in February 2007, he later resigned from his fire position with the agency. This person was sentenced to five years in the US Bureau of Prisons, then five years of supervised release, convicted felon status, registration as a sex offender, shall not access the internet without approved filtering software by the US probation officer and the defendant shall not use or possess any computer not authorized by the US probation officer.

There are several points to all of this:

• First, for those that serve under the Maltese Cross and believe in all it stands for, continue striving to be the very best wildland firefighters you can be, each and every day, both in your professional and personal lives.
• Second, supervisors, don’t ignore your groundpounders. They have something to say even when it comes to character issues, and they may just keep you from getting a black eye down the road.
• Finally, for the firefighters that entrusted their children's care to this person (and you know who you are), talk to your kids.

"John Walsh Forever"

Thanks, Wildland Firefighter. Ab has the documents that verify info presented in this post.

The San Bernardino Sun's front page headline today; "5 fire deaths recalled".

www.sbsun.com (to read the article)

Friends, family of five fallen firefighters to mark second anniversary of their deaths
2nd anniversary reality sets in
By Debbie Pfeiffer Trunnel

Does anyone know what happened to the Dept of Interior employee lookup page?
I need to look someone up and your link on the links page doesn't work any more.

Thanks,

Midland

Hi there West Texas. Welcome to theysaid.
Readers, any ideas on the DOI lookup? I need to do a fall cleanup of the the links page. Ab.

I remember back in the 80's, when a small working group from the WO traveled
about selling FERS to us CSRS types. The word was how great FERS is. I
remember thinking, "These guy's are from the WO, and they're telling me how
great this new retirement system is"... well the rest is history. FERS was nothing
but a bailout for Social Security at federal employees' expense.

Groundpig.

cwcgwatcher

If someone wants to send in more details, I'll add it to the IMWTK. Ab.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27348054#27348054

Don't take life seriously, it isn't permanent

If you are FERS.. well sorry about that.

Fish01

---------------------------------------

From theysaid 01/02/2003 -
Here is some info and pictures relevant to the discussion of early versions of the fire shelter.

I have attached some pictures of prototype fire shelters that were being tested in 1961.This is from an article in "Fire Control Notes" January 1961. Apparently research and work on designs began in 1959. You can see the Teepee/Conehead design as well as some Tin Man Suits that didn't make the cut. A design similar to the most recent style is also pictured but apparently lost out to the Cone style in the first production runs.

These designs were tested by being placed 40 feet from piles of scrap lumber 15x20x7 feet in size that burned intensely for 2 hours. That would be an interesting place to deploy! Also it seems that protection from heat was the main objective, with no reference in the article to protection of airways. The caption under the "after" picture of the Cone indicated temps of 300 degrees inside the shelter!

speedo

Here they are: Shelter 1, Shelter 2, Shelter 3, Shelter 4. Ab.

William Riggles

I'm just speculating, I could be wrong though. Anyway, hope things work
out for you.

Pappy'81 (not the original)

May be too late to catch this, but just saw on NBC News tonight a story on the
mountain pine beetle problem combined with the drought in CO. Pretty impressive
reporting - they got the facts right. Would have been a tighter story if they'd
expanded the scale of the story to all the areas of the west that are affected, including
So Cal.

They also mentioned later a wildfire in CA threatening a museum.

Just a heads-up if yer interested and can catch the news tonight. May be online later....

-DC (not the original)

PS - I love the poem from Bob Kelly written at the Knoxville Tanker Base - thanks for sharing!

Let me clarify that DLT did not send that in, it was a "round robin of email" being sent from firefighter to firefighter. It did begin with an email from DLT. I supplied initials instead of name. Additional clarification: The CWCG has an Ops Team that reports directly to the CWCG. Ab.

President Bush has recognized more than 350 career federal executives for their outstanding leadership and longtime service to government.

Included in the list are three current or former Forest Service employees: Chief Gail Kimbell, Region 5 Regional Forester Randy Moore and former Region 6 Regional Forester Linda D. Goodman.

"Winners of the prestigious Presidential Rank Award represent the cream of the crop within the federal executive ranks," Office of Personnel Management acting Director Michael Hager said in a statement announcing the 2008 awards. "Their professional dedication and commitment to excellence is helping to advance President Bush's agenda for enhancing federal government performance and creating a more effective civil service."

Of the 353 recipients, 61 career employees were named Distinguished Senior Professionals or Executives. That distinction is limited to 1 percent of the senior professional and senior executive corps.

The recipients will receive cash awards worth 35 percent of their base pay, which means a bonus of at least $40,063, since minimum base pay for senior executives is $114,468. Bonuses could be as high as $60,270 for top senior executives in agencies that have certified performance appraisal systems for SES members and the top salary for executives is $172,200. In agencies without certified systems, the salary cap is $158,500, and the highest bonuses will be $55,475.

The other 292 award recipients were named Meritorious Executives and Senior Professionals, an honor limited to 5 percent of the corps. They will receive awards worth 20 percent of their base pay, a minimum of $22,894, and up to $34,400 in agencies with certified appraisal systems, and $31,700 in agencies without them.

Defense and Homeland Security executives had another strong showing among winners. In 2007, Defense and the military departments alone had 16 Distinguished Executives and 71 Meritorious Executives. This year officials from the Homeland Security and Defense (including the armed services) departments won 18 of the Distinguished Rank Awards and 44 of the Meritorious Rank Awards.

Stand down in transition of fire managers to 401 series:

Fire personnel,

NFFE has continued to work on the agency's very troubling transition of
fire management positions to the GS-0401 series. Necessarily, much of our
work must be behind the scenes if we are to be effective. Thus, while we
would like to provide more frequent updates, we must choose effectiveness
first.

In the coming days, I hope we will be able to share some of the analyses we
have been performing and providing in this battle. Some of these are
posted at www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/IFPM/Fire_Index.html and more
will be posted there as we are able.

That said, we are happy that OIG appears to agree with our analysis of the
situation. We are also very pleased that the Chief has acted to keep the
462 door open for fire leaders who, because of OPM's policy change
affecting NWCG courses, no longer qualify for the 401 series. Please see
the trailing message for this announcement.

Again, we will share more info as we are able.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We have been advised by the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) that they
will soon be issuing a "Management Alert" regarding Forest Service use of
the GS-401 series for Fire Management Specialists. The Management Alert
process is used by OIG when situations have been identified that (in the
OIG opinion) warrant prompt response prior to issuance of any final report
and action plan. This Management Alert will cite major concerns about use
of the 401 series to enable the Forest Service to meet its fire management
staffing needs.

Knowing that use of this series has been, and continues to be very
controversial within the Forest Service, I feel it is appropriate to take
some immediate action in this time period while the OIG finishes its review
and issues a formal report. Until the report is issued and the appropriate
policy review and interagency coordination occurs, I am directing all units
to "stand down" further implementation of the GS-401 series at grades
GS-9-12. Any fire management positions currently planned for staffing in
the GS-401 series at grades GS-9 through 12 must also provide for staffing
in the GS-462 series, in order to accommodate employees who can only
currently qualify as GS-462's. Ongoing training in courses with college
accreditation may continue for individual development and to prepare
employees considering progressing to the GS-13 and above leadership
positions.

Once the OIG final report is issued, we will assess the recommended actions
and develop the appropriate policy and path forward. The path forward will
include appropriate series classifications that meet the operational needs
of the Forest Service. Our objective is to secure the best long term fire
management organization with world-class expertise, and which is safe,
proud, and efficient.

Formal guidance will be issued shortly.

Gail Kimbell
Forest Service Chief

Yes, that is the Joe Miller you knew.

Doug

“Here we sit without a drop
This fire season was a flop
Next year when things begin to burn
You bet 'chur butt we will return
So now my friends we say goodbye
And see if this damned thing will fly
Away to West to fight the fire
If said ‘not fun’ you are a liar
For boys and girls: we’ve had a ball
Let’s try it again, maybe next Fall"

Bob Kelly

Ab

Just some information. I have been receiving a higher number of position
interest inquiries from Cal-Fire. Not sure if they are going to do
another large round of hiring. It sure does seem that they are getting
their side set up to do another round from the feeling of it. Not sure if
other guys are getting the same mail.

Signed gogo

Would be interested to hear opinions about whether I'm off base on this or not, because in another Katrina, I'd bet all kinds of money that fire gets tapped as heavily as before or more so, and still without being used as effectively as they could because folks on many levels still don't "get" incident management.

Be safe-

Change Agent

Condolences. Ab.

Thanks for the additional info, Groundpig!

Mellie

Good morning Ab.

I thought I would share with you one of the initiatives the department has been working on up here to honour and remember those we lost over the years fighting wildfires in Alberta .

Here is a copy of the press release and some of the photos

New monument honours fallen wildland firefighters
Special ceremony recognizes 21 individuals

Hinton... In a special memorial ceremony September 20, 2008, the Alberta government unveiled a new memorial monument on the grounds of the Hinton Training Centre. The monument pays tribute to individuals who have lost their lives while performing wildfire suppression operations in the province.

Approximately 150 family members, friends and ministry of Sustainable Resource Development (SRD) staff gathered at the site of the memorial to commemorate the contributions of those who worked to protect and preserve Alberta’s forests.

“Alberta’s fallen wildland firefighters all showed an unwavering commitment to protect Alberta’s forests and forest communities,” said Ted Morton, Minister of Sustainable Resource Development. “This monument recognizes the enduring sacrifice made by these firefighters, their families and friends.”

On the walking trail leading up to the monument there are marker stones identifying each of the fallen wildland firefighters.

Since 1944, twenty-one Alberta Wildland firefighters have been fatally injured in sixteen separate incidents, the most recent occurring on August 17, 2008 west of Grande Prairie.

<<fallen-firefighters10.jpg>> <<photo-of-memorial 034.jpg>> <<marker-stones.jpg>>

fallen firefighters 10.jpg - Alberta Sustainable Resource Development Deputy Minister Eric J. McGhan and Acting Assistant Deputy Minister Don Harrison unveil monument at the Hinton Training Centre.

photo of memorial 034.jpg - plaque honouring fallen wildland firefighters in Alberta

marker stones.jpg - individual marker stones along walking path to monument. Each were unveiled during the ceremony

Leo Drapeau
Safety Program Coordinator
Forest Protection Division
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Very nice memorial tribute, Leo. Thank you. Ab.

Congratulations to all our new apprentices!

Lori

Q: How many rangers does it take to screw in a light bulb(s)?

A: More than you'd ever venture to guess:

~~~

One field employee to notice the need for "bulb replacement" and notify his or her supervisor of that need;

One Supervisory Forestry Technician to analyze the request and determine if the bulb(s) truly needs replacement, then request an interdisciplinary team (IDT) be convened to look at all the alternatives;

One ASC or AQM employee to prioritize the need, acquire the bulb, and schedule the replacement with locally available contractors; and finally

One Line Officer to approve the process. After approval, the lowest bidder is allowed to change the bulb(s).

Ten or more non-English speaking contractor employees complete the work, without CO or COR verification of I-9 status.

~~~

I don't know if it is happening in other areas, but on one Southern California National Forest, "Going Green" is very profitable for the group winning the contract to replace fluorescent bulbs, ballasts, and convert incandescent lighting to fluorescent bulbs in all forest facilities.

In a example of "reverse mission drift", instead of using fire employees to accomplish this task as it has been done for decades, it was contracted out AT SIGNIFICANT increased costs to the GOVT and taxpayer, AND ADDED to the "cost pools" and "indirect shared costs" that the fire program primarily funds anyway.

Rogue Rivers

I was called today by Terry Miller who is the brother of Joe Miller.
Joe was on the El Cariso Hotshot crew as a crew boss in 1961.
Joe passed on Sept. 19, 2008 in Colorado after a long illness.
I have had many discussions with Joe over the years and he was always
interested in fire and followed the fire news.

I am going to hoist one for Joe tonight.
Good speed Joe.

Best regards to all
Doug Campbell

We had a string of fine Division supes and missed each of them when they rotated out. Ed was very insightful re local winds in our valley and over the DP2 "saddle". Came to find out later he had been a hotshot supe... Experience counts for a lot in this business.

Well, I could gush on forever!

Somebody send me a contact number or email for BLM LaGrande, please!

Mellie

Will pass info on. Ab.

Ab,

I'd like to find an copy of the OLD fire shelter training video which showed a guy
inside the shelter while a ring of brush was burned around him. It also showed the
different designs tried before then.

In addition, I'd like to find an even older movie, possibly "Crew Boss" which had
a line in it to something like "our country needs more men like young Chuck Hartley".
This was filmed at Chialo on the ANF. I think in the early 60's.

If anybody has either of these I'd pay for duplication and mailing.

John Bennett
USFS Ret
jrbennett @ riohondo.edu

There's a link to a fire shelter history page on the IMWTK History page. Shows pics of potential early fire shelter shapes and has info on testing www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk.htm#shelter Ab.

Curious

I would not want to say that your offer of a free beverage is my sole motivation, but also I have seldom passed up the opportunity. In any case I would say, read the National Response Framework (NRF) at the link below. Comparing the response from Rita to Ike in the SE Texas was encouraging. If I were handing out grades, I would give

• the NGOs an A+,
• Local Government an A-,
• Texas State a C,
• FEMA a C-,
• Federal Wildland Fire Agencies a B,
• Army Corp of Engineers a D- (would have been an F but they pulled their heads out eventually).

All my opinion. However the response was in-line with the NRF. All of which really points to a consolidated effort across the board. FEMA is getting better. Still probably working at a Type 3 level. Just hope that during an overload of a fire season somebody doesn't want to prove a point and haul them in to manage a wildland fire. My point is that if the NRF is followed, wildland fire resources will not be as involved in non-wildland fire events.

Here is the NRF link. www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nrf/nrf-core.pdf

How do I get my beverage?

Intothewind

Another idea for a thesis would be to compare fire severity from interior
burning (natural fire) and back burned fire lines to look at the
difference in severity. My guess is that you will find a significant
difference in the two. I suggest looking at some of the fires that burned
in Nor Cal this summer, ie. Ukonom, Panther, Blue-2. You could also look
at historical data such as the siege of 87 in the same area with
some of the same tactics.

Just a thought,
Klamathman

CWCG Composition of Teams

Please review the attached CWCG determination,
(See attached file: CWCG Composition of Teams Final.pdf)
and implement effective Monday, October 20, 2008. Thank you
for your attention to this matter. If you have any questions or need
assistance, please contact your agency CWCG representative.

D.L.T.
Fire Chief & Director of Emergency Services
Kern County Fire Department

Chiefs:

With the recent changes in the IFPM requirements, I have received many phone
calls asking clarifying questions. (As my second-to-last act as regional IFPM/FS
FPM coordinator....)

I have attempted to combine the requirements of both IFPM & FS FPM in one
semi-readable, translated to R5 position language chart that, with luck, will
answer most folks questions.

Key changes of late for IFPM:

• The Forest Fire Prevention Officer has been pulled out of IFPM (meaning,
  no qualifications, training or GS-401 needed).
• The qualifications needed for most IFPM positions have been divided into
  "Primary Core" and
  "Secondary Core requirements.
  Primary Core requirements you have to have (currency varies by position);
  Secondary Core requirements you have to have one of two qualifications
  (example: ICT3 or RXB2.....no longer "and").

Key changes (& some things that were decided a while ago) for FS FPM:

• The Deputy Forest Fire Chief position is FS FPM (not IFPM). It is an agency,
  USFS, decision (not NWCG) to hold the Deputy Forest Fire Chief as an "Unit
  Fire Program Manager" (aka, Forest Fire Chief) and must meet the primary/
  secondary core requirements, currency & training.
• Primary and Secondary Core requirements have not been delineated, although
  it's mostly a matter of chart display. Many of the positions requirements were
  "or" versus "and" under FS FPM.

R5 positions not covered by IFPM or FS FPM:

• Smokejumpers,
• AFEO,
• Forest Fire Prevention,
• GACC positions,
• most RO positions,
• most of the aviation branch (except helitack),
• warehouse,
• fire administrative,
• tanker base &
• lookouts.....

I'm sure there are a few I left out....it was unintentional if I did.....

Have questions? please call or email.
(See attached file: R5 Summary of I&FS FPM stands_10_20_2008.doc)

J P-T

Misery Whip- I was just yanking your chain when I called you a communist.

When I spew here in Abs echo chamber, it's never meant to be taken
personally as we are all in this together.
Even RNC, Exasperated and Kibble Free should be tolerated....8-)
Which brings me back to the "profit motive" as it relates to the wildland
fire community.
I agree with Ab- this is a philosophical disagreement- not a jab at
contractors.

If we are mindful of what capitalism and the marketplace are all about then
we might find it a
rather twisted construct to think that it is in a contractor's best
interest to actually put a fire out.
Or to not light one up for that matter. Of course there have been many
instances when agency firefighters have turned into arsonists
as well. The main point being- is that agency firefighters would get paid
whether there were fires or not.
I guess it's all in the amount in which an agency firefighter would want to
get paid.

As an agency firefighter I always enjoyed the profession for what it was,
the money was a secondary thing.
There are plenty of professions that pay better than wildland firefighting,
and I believe that a person who cares only about the profit
to be made fighting wildfires would have to be pretty hard up for money to
bet their livelihood on the government and the weather.
But that's just me- thinking back to my early years and what motivated me
to devote my life to this profession all those years ago.

Incentive to provide for the public interest is probably the best way to
consider how fire management services are delivered to the American People.
Well trained firefighters, who work smart and efficiently to deliver fire
management services with high quality performance at a reasonable cost are
what matters.
Agency firefighters are at a general disadvantage over contract
firefighters because in addition to our line gear, we also have to pack a
couple of tons of bureaucracy on our backs.
It gets heavy -carrying around the paper trail that is supposed to hold us
accountable for the things we do- like packing such a weight in the first
place.

Jasper Quarterturn

Lookout towers give bird's-eye view of the forest and beyond

TS

After 18 years of faithful service it is time for something new. The FS is trying
something different, check out the rollup doors.

Submitted by: Bill

Thanks Bill. I put it on the Engines 22 photo page. Ab.

Taken on the Purdy Fire, Shoshone N.F. 2006. Photo compliments of Tim F. (10/08)

Thanks Tim. Nice one. I put it on the Helicopters 25 photo page. Ab.

This photo of the Lonesome Complex Fire Column near Prospect, OR was taken
by one of our employees that lives in Eagle Point, OR -

Debbie K
Swanson Group

Thanks, I put it on the Fire 39 photo page. Ab.

This may be the first "Fire Shelter". Teepee Fire Shelter photo from 11/29/63.

Retired

Thanks Bruce, I put it on the Equipment 11 photo page. I put a link to it on the IMWTK page under fire shelters. Ab.

Thanks Tony. I put them on Engines 22 and Airtankers 27 photo pages. Ab.

Follow up from Casey's post on "the plan".

I have heard from sources that a one time 10% retention allowance is being considered for all those with FF retirement. I know that's not much, but it's a start.

The other idea I have heard floating around is what I what I call 888. When committed to an incident; 8 hours of base, 8 hours of OT and then 8 more hours of base. When on a day off; 16 hours of OT and 8 hours of base. Implementation of this option is would be a very positive a move in the right direction. Some of the details getting worked out are when, where and how? What if an R-5er goes out of region? Does the militia get the 888? Do we give it to Feds coming into R-5 to fight fire? Again, these ideas are reportedly getting worked on. I would hope we could get this implemented nationally throughout all Fed agencies, but if not, getting it started would be a good beginning.

My question to those who understand policies, regulations and CFRs better than me is what level of approval would it require to implement 888 pay? Agency, Department, Congressional?

Finally, when the plan was delivered to the Chief, she reportedly was not too happy about it. So what does that tell us? It tells us to keep hammering all. Keep the chatter high. Don't let up! Your voices allowed us to get this far. Lets not go backwards, Together we must continue to move forward and bring the agency along for the ride.

ms

I put them on the Logos 15 photo page. Ab.

They did this with the Barons.... when it came time to replace them, where had all the money gone? I don't know (it was a rhetorical question), but they did not have the couple million to upgrade to KingAirs (as I understand it they had NO MONEY, where did the replacement/reserves go? another rhetorical question), so it was cheaper (imagine that) to go to the private sector and contract for Aircraft and maintenance. Don't they call these A76 studies?

Let's not forget the BLM's foray into the OV10, with management, budget, maintenance costs and parts causing its distruction.

More recently, what happened to the Orions (P3s) the USFS got and sent back east to be worked on? Mucho dinero later and I understand that that program is dead. Couldn't afford it? didn't have the expertise? how were they to support them? It was suppose to have been up and running in a year or two.... really, Aero Union, arguably the world authority on P3s cannot get one up and out the door in 2 years, this is when it is sitting in their backyard and it flew in, how could the FS possibly believe they could do it in a couple of years???

As for the helicopter fleet you may be able to own your own light/med ships, but the heavy lifts are few and far between as are their parts and availability, is the FS going to buy type certificates and manufacture parts also? Are they going to tool up to create these parts like Erickson and Columbia do? Or are we going to get surplus military and "convert" them to civilian?

Also just how many aircraft can the USFS manage effectively and maintain? Remember the Biscuit fire, there were probably more than a hundred helicopters on that ONE fire, so how many would we need to own? There are 20+ heavy airtankers, 80+ seats, 20+ King Airs, on contract these days and I couldn't even guess how many helicopters(100?) ...., how could we possibly support them? Unless you are proposing hiring a TON of people, and in the current economic and budget situation, that probably won't happen. Oh yeah not to mention facilities....

My personal opinion is that the FS could not possibly own and manage an aviation program the size it would need to suppress its wildfires, it could certainly cut down on the utilization of aircraft and save money, seems we could spike out more, minimize heli mopping, use tankers more for IA and less in extended. Let more fires burn (now there's a popular idea!) and accept the risk....

Then there is the old "the Government is not suppose to compete with private industry" law. If services are available in the private sector for a reasonable amount we are suppose to utilize them.... kind of helps the economy, Capitalism, you know. Just food for thought. Not meant as an affront.

Kibble free

Here are a few tractor plow photos from a fire that did not go so well for me.

DRJ

Thanks, and interesting; I put them on Equipment 12 photo page. Ab.

These are from the Cherry, MN fire in 2007.

I took them while providing structural protection.

Scott L

Thanks, I put them on Fire 39, Helicopters 25. and Airtankers 27 photo pages. Ab.

I’m sure over your 30 year career you have seen how high rates of attrition have a detrimental impact on the agency that you are defending. When an organization allows its workforce to slip from their fingers, they create a void in that needs to be backfilled. But what is there to backfill with? We have all heard on They Said time and time again how the federal agencies are a stepping-stone for the upcoming generations of firefighters. There is a reason that they want to be able to be paid for their wide base of skill sets such as being EMTs. They want to have a return on their investment when following a career where they will be “caring for people”. I’m sure those quality employees that you take so much pride in leading are incredibly motivated individuals that you would love to see continue to build the organization to what you expect it to be. Yet, how much of a opportunity do you give them when reality sets in and they have to support
themselves and families with fair pay and benefits. How much are you offering to protect the organization when you tell them that trying to be progressive with SCBAs is nothing more than an ego stroke? How do they react when you tell them "stop expecting to be compensated for learning to be an EMT" and function as one when their duty to act is imposed on them after they are dispatched to circumstances where they are needed? I’m sure they would rather go work for someone where their efforts to be the best they can be are appreciated.

When they tell you that they are leaving unless they are paid a fair wage, they are looking up to you to be their voice, but you are only letting them down by giving the cop out of “there is the door”. You seem to have spent the last 30 years ignoring the retention problems and are continuing to do so. As a consequence you are contributing to the demise of what could potentially be an exemplary organization. The positions of those you showed to the door will be backfilled with just as motivated but inexperienced employees that will inevitably follow the same path of those ahead of them through your door.

You will no longer see the same caliber of 30 year veterans that you are used to. The quality ones will move on through the simple fundamentals of economics. The letter writing, lobbying, and FWFSA support plays a role in the retention problem but they have come to little avail if you serve only as a brick wall to progress. Some of the greatest leverage of collective bargaining comes through threatening the employer with the loss of their workforce.

I suggest that you start helping instead of turning a deaf ear to the issue. Let your employees make their threats of leaving. Let them voice their concerns about the agency taking way their SCBAs. Let them want to increase their skill sets to serve the people and be able to pass along the fruits of their labor to their families. Because if you don’t, the organization that you care about so much will be nothing more than a bunch of 30 year veterans that will still be “hoping for it to get fixed but highly doubt it”.

Former Left Coast Forestry Tech

First of all, my comments were directed at your opinions, not a personal attack. I wont stoop to your level because you have some issues that only you can deal with.

I wouldn't be dropping bombs on my own people, kind of a poor example. That would be a mercenary type person, maybe like retired forest service employees working for municipal agencies doing the same job for better pay because the agency doesn't give a dam about them and they cannot afford to "retire". My example, again, doing the SAME job but for an agency that actually values its employees, pays them a fair wage, and provides decent benefits. I don't know about you, but I never signed up in this job for the money.

Integrity, hmmm. Where could we start on that one? How about all the shenanigans that went on with opportunity L. A.? The line officers that turned their back on that scandal,,,,, Please don't question my integrity. I didn't sell it. When your fire chiefs (hope that doesn't offend you) down to your captain are telling you to leave because you'd be better off, thats called common sense. So sorry.

If you have been seeing people leaving the agency for 30 years, shouldn't that be a clue? Being the all-knowing problem solver you seem to be, why don't you try and make it so no one wants to leave? Casey and others are, and all you can do is put them down. Is that how you supervise?

As far as your cops comment, let's look at that. I'm not sure what you're getting at but.. It is their job to investigate them, you should know that. Especially on forest service land because of liability and a possible crime scene. Additionally, I have seen plenty of LEOs, city police, sheriff deputies, and highway patrolman jump in to help provide patient care. Why? because it's what we signed up for, to help people. A lot of people were becoming EMT's and first responders to take care of their own crews and be self sufficient.

"training, professionalism and safety." Your own words, wouldn't you want to be identified and paid as such?
Anyway, have to go find my integrity.

Former Green Soldier.

• I was able to ask, while standing at a local government/and federal fire station "Were there a traffic collision in front of the station, would it be the Senators expectation that "we" would help our cooperators". The answer was "Yes, of course".
• I then asked, "Were the cafe across the highway on fire, would the Senators expectation be that we assist our cooperator, given our policy to assist from the outside, and stop the fires progress into the forest". The answer "Yes, of course" delivered in the tone of you Dumbs***.

I've discussed this conversation with several Washington and Boise types, all good people, but clearly uninformed as to politicians expectations, mistake. We as good people have a duty to act, we share our garden hose and help our neighbor; he's hurt, we help. That's a cultural thing in our country. I've admired how the Park Service in the National Parks and BLM at Sand Dunes in California offer fire and rescue services to visitors. Were I looking for a solution, I'd use the Park model on all Federal Lands appropriate to visitor and use, taking care of our visitors. I've thought it odd that we value visitor safety on Parks but not on Forests, Districts, Refuges, etc. I see us continuing to assist our cooperators, but not replacing them on private lands.

I can envision with competition for tax dollars that we need of course to perform our function, but remember some agency Boise thoughts on how we might train our local cooperators and equip them to do our mission. "They are usually there first". I've heard the idea of selling off our engine capabilities, retaining only crews. The one area I think we should consider is, with budget competition, can we offer appropriate service along current lines, and compete with Local Government who is willing to provide higher levels of service. As Federal Grants increase to fire departments would it be a mistake to offer less service than we do today and reduce our role to a single specialty? Could, with government funding, locals staff up and assume our role?

I think we should think ahead, plan ahead and continue doing the best we can. Not seek artificial barriers to our service.

Clancy

A San Diego Fire-Rescue engineer received 2nd degree burns from mid-thigh to ankle
on the front of one leg. He was transported by ground to UCSD burn center. He'll be
there for a couple days. I'll be stopping by later this afternoon to check up on him and
see if he needs anything.

Here's links with confirmation:

www.cbs8.com/stories/story.143620.html
www.10news.com/news/17742802/detail.html

John Fisher

Thanks for the verified info, John. Please keep us updated. Ab.

1. we manage different pieces of dirt with different complexities and different public expectations.
2. some are satisfied without having # 1-5 and others will fight until we get #1-5. That's nothing to be ashamed of or indifferent about, because in the end, the diversity of our posts prove one thing, we all still care deeply about our jobs and we still believe in the strength of our Federal Wildland Firefighter Family.

The Fed Wildland Firefighters in this forum from across this nation forced the Forest Service to come to the table. We educated Line Officers and guess what? They acknowledged our issues. Every Pena email, Randy Moore letter or plan drafted on retention and recruitment is an acknowledgment by them that we are right. In the middle of a economic meltdown and two wars, we are truly grateful for a 25 million acknowledgment by the Congress and the President that something is wrong. # 1-5 will become a reality one day. We can do this as a divided majority or we can do this as one. Either way this ball is rolling people and it will not stop until we see significant change.

RNC Supporter, one more thing; MSNBC huh, hmmm? Or like watching Rupert's Fake News Network (fair and balanced?). Maybe I can be a Veep nominee to since the last time I had one of those Harbour sunsets, I could see Russia from my ridge-top. Scary stuff........... Judgment matters..... "4185"

Signed,

Keep the ball rolling on 11/4/2008.

Ab research on 4185. I didn't know what it meant.

I would be surprised (pleasantly) if you could point me to something solid that is out there in incident management, in the National Incident Management System (NIMS) where it is supposed to be, that is in place and real outside of the required training that folks have to do to be NIMS compliant, that helps the country build capacity, skills, and knowledge in this area. Tools, guides, publications, capabilities, anything.

If you can find something solid; hard evidence that we are improving incident management capability in the country outside wildland fire in a consistent way, across the board, and coordinated by FEMA's leadership; I will eat my words and definitely owe you a cold beverage.

As a result of the 9-11 Commission's report and HSPD-5 (the Federal Directive that mandated the NIMS) Stakeholders from across the United states met in 2003 to look at ways to improve local level All-Hazard incident Management. Under the United States Fire Administration's umbrella (USFA) the All-Hazard Incident Management Team (AHIMT) concept was formed and has really taken off. This is a voluntary effort that has nothing to do with the NIMS compliance you spoke of.

An AHIMT is a multi-agency/multi-jurisdiction team used for extended incidents, formed and managed at the State, regional or metropolitan level. It is a designated team of trained personnel from different departments, organizations, agencies, and jurisdictions within a state or DHS Urban Area Security Initiative region, activated to support incident management at incidents that extend beyond one operational period. Type 3 IMTs are deployed to manage incidents requiring a significant number of local, regional, and state resources, and incidents that extend into multiple operational periods and require a written Incident Action Plan. There are about 35-40 of these teams nation-wide, and more are being formed on a monthly basis. Examples of incidents these teams managed are Iowa; flooding event and a tornado, Ohio; 3 different flooding events and one train derailment, Pennsylvania; flooding, etc. You can check out some of their teams on imtcenter.net.

OpsGeek

Hi all - guess I had more to say today…. (Warning: long post!)

Seems that I've been reading this board since June, 1998, so holy crap, that's over 10 years now (!)... and some trends emerge. For my own self on this board, I'm back to my core issues, which come out in the #15 suggestion below that's already been mentioned a couple of times. Funny how the roads we take bring us around in circles if we follow them for long enough. Hugh, thanks for the excellent compliment – I will try to be in touch. And if only I actually worked in fire!

The thing that bugs me over and over on here is that there seems to be a tendency toward name-calling and assumptions about politics and decisions. Far be it from me to defend fire management, and no, I don't work there now at any level, but I did at one point. The dam-nest thing about this field that I don't think folks often get is that usually the people in management, and sometimes very high up, do it because they are trying to take care of the program and the folks in the field. For me, it was all about getting folks on the ground as much support as we could to make things as safe and well-managed as possible. It can be very frustrating to be working in fire management and not have people understand what you deal with and why decisions are made.

The critical point I think we are at is that folks in these essential leadership positions seem to be at some sort of massive political and policy impasse. In many ways, the issues facing wildland fire are beyond the kinds of fixes that the agencies can bring themselves. The entire field needs re-thinking, re-tooling, and a strategic infusion of infrastructure and probably cash… in personnel, skills and training programs – including leadership – for starters, and then in areas such as aviation. Re-thinking the wildland urban interface (WUI) and long term strategy, and re-doing the financial emergency suppression approach-- this is clearly deficient. Straight up: the current entire big picture wildland fire approach isn't working, and I think that is one thing on which there may actually be some consensus.

At a structure fire event recently, I heard folks talking about the possibility that the US might someday go toward state fire services or a national fire service, like what you see in Australia and other countries. I was frankly alarmed and surprised to hear this, until I heard more about it and thought through it; lots to consider. Very surprising to hear such discussion in the structure world – so seemingly different from wildland.

The fact is, we realized on 9/11, again during Katrina, and on all kinds of other incidents that, um, we don't do business the same way across the country. Police, fire, law enforcement. Within the disciplines, maybe a little more consistency, but it is a long, slow process moving at glacial speed to get to consistent processes – look at all the partnerships, bureaucracies, and organizations that have evolved to address this stuff; NWCG being a prime example of awesome things but slow movement. And that is the speed at which we are likely to continue our rate of change until something overcomes it, and it looks like that something is here or due any minute – at least for wildland fire.

What I think the field needs is some serious thinking – strategery (to borrow a term from the White House, or was it SNL?) – and I personally think it needs to come from the bottom up as well as the top down. Far be it from me to raise the call for unity, but I do believe fire managers actually need support from the people they are trying to support to find the solutions. And, for real change, I reckon you have to get the public involved. Ironically, the Smokey the Bear campaign is well-known as the most successful public communication campaign in the world.

For change to occur, I personally think it needs to be coordinated, to have a strategic message that works, to hit from all angles, in all media forms, targeted to all audiences, focused on the public, and be geared at making pushes for Congress and the administration to make necessary changes. The kind of wholesale change needed in this field won't likely occur unless something BIG happens. I'm not sure how big the fire disaster needs to be for that to occur, but if 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2007, and 2008 haven't done it, and Katrina and 9/11 didn't do it: than maybe it's not going to be incident-driven. Perhaps the solution hasn't occurred, because nobody's thought it through, gotten some consensus, and pushed it.

Many of the issues that have occurred in recent large-scale fires have gotten the attention of folks in some very unexpected places, but those folks don't necessarily have the experience or depth in the field to find the right solutions, although it sure looks like some of them are a-lookin'. The way wildland fire works – and the national coordination system and NIIMS working quietly behind it – is in some ways incomprehensibly complex… tough for insiders to get, but even tougher for outsiders to grasp. In my humble opinion, nothing much will change until something enormous changes… and if the last 10 years haven't done it, that says to me that the "something" needs to be bigger (oh boy), to have a bigger impact (egad), or to offer a better option (hmm?).

I reckon we all make choices. Almost all of the most impressive people I have ever met are and have been wildland fire people. I have the absolutely most incredible respect for a good share of the wildland and structure fire folks I've met in my career in this field – a way higher percentage than for your average cross-section of society. These are people who get s*#% done. I know this: something's got to give, and a whole lot WILL change; but the question is really about who asks the questions, who pushes the agenda, and who makes the decisions.

Will sure be interesting to see how this all unfolds…

Be safe out there –

-Change Agent

Former Wildland Firefighter with a unique over-view, thanks for your insights. Ab.

Right on, Oliver. I enjoyed the "Not that I don't enjoy Misery Whip's posts
and even Hugh's once in awhile"

For once I agree with a supporter of the RNC: the dialogue and conversation
are key to better understanding of the complexity of the issues.

Regards,

Hugh Carson, Delta Cty Democratic Party Volunteer Coordinator

Exasperated,
Misery Whip was clear in what he said on 10/16/08; Ab's bold/underline:

I also want to say I mean no disrespect to the many fine aviation contractors, pilots, and mechanics out there who do an outstanding job supporting USFS fire operations. I consider this to be a fundamental philosophical issue and do not intend these comments to be a critique of any company or individual. MW

The FS does not pay you to be an EMT so quit expecting to be paid for it. Cops go to all kinds of accidents and medical aids and they are not EMTs. It’s not their job, and neither is it yours! Get over it! Quit trying to tell your employers what you want to do at work. He is paying you.

Smokeater

Do you expect to find the old FS family at CDF? How does leaving for more money have anything to do with the FS family? Oh, maybe you can stay and try to recreate the old family. Did you tell your overhead you would stay if they gave you that warm and fuzzy feeling? Maybe your Deputy FMO was busy fighting for you in the S.O. so you can keep your SCBAs to come out and stroke your ego. Have you ever thought of that?

Point is: read my post. There is nothing wrong with trying for improvements, the FWFSA, writing letters etc. But leave your attitude at home. You threatening to leave and complaining about the job at work gets old and your crews need to focus on training, professionalism and safety. My point is, working for the FS is about more than the money. It is a way of life, a commitment to the land and the people that use it and serving. You should not put conditions on something like that.

And one more thing, I have seen people leave this agency for over 30 years. Retention has always been a problem. Hopefully it will get fixed but I doubt it. But in the long run the true FS employees, the ones that keep everything turning will stick it out.

Spittin

I believe that there is nothing wrong with a SZ Region 5 mindset. Some of
the best wannabee wildland firefighters (country bumpkins/billybobs) from
the east coast and elsewhere have migrated to the SZ and have become fine
firefighters. The SZ has adapted to the environment in which it operates.
Other places have adapted differently according to the conditions of the
area. All places and organizations will have their fair share of inbred
bumpkins- including the SZ. However no organization should stop "looking
over the fence" at how other organizations operate. We all have something
to learn from each other. We become inbred when we let our egos
outdistance our ability to learn new things.

Regarding ol Misery Whip and the agency air force. Get real man- everyone
knows that our agencies need to contract everything out- hell we can't even
build our own fire facilities upon our own land, without leasing those
facilities from some local slum lord. We could have millions of acres of
federal land to choose from- but no we need to hemorrhage more of our
budget to pay for over-priced leases. What are you- some sort of
Communist? The nerve of some people.....our own air force. Look at the
military- they actually use their own equipment and pilots, because
anything as important as national defense deserves to be done right.
Everything else should just be done in a half-$#%HB(! manner.
Are the lives of wildland firefighters any less important than the lives of
military personnel?

Most of our aviation contractors are fine folks, who do a fine job. But I
have noticed that many contractors are starting to use young pups for
pilots, because old pilots are getting scare.

As a result I fly as a last resort. Helitack and other personnel often
don't have that luxury.

Jasper Quarterturn

The charity code for the WFF is 12544.

I know that I won't mind giving up a venti latte a week to make a difference..... how about you?

Lori

Just gave a call to the Foundation this morning.
Vicki is in NM. Burk's dad is visiting the grandkids and WFF. Thanks for the good works you do WFF! Ab.

oldlpf

www.times-standard.com/localnews/ci_10744059

Suspect arrested on Forest Service pot farm
The Times-Standard
Article Launched: 10/17/2008 01:15:33 AM PDT

On Wednesday, law enforcement arrested a man suspected of illegally growing marijuana, and seized thousands of plants from a farm on U.S. Forest Service property, the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office reported.

According to police information, Francisco Aparisio Chavez, 21, of Michoacán, Mexico, was arrested by agents with the U.S. Forest Service. When he was found, Chavez was allegedly within arm's reach of a loaded pistol-grip pump-action shotgun.

The grow site was located in a forested area on public land near U.S. Forest Service Route 1 off of State Route 299, authorities reported. In total, drug officials seized 1,200 growing marijuana plants, 600 drying marijuana plants, and 3,000 plants that were already harvested, the HCSO reported.

An additional 17 pounds of processed marijuana and a loaded assault rifle were also reportedly seized.

According to HCSO information, Chavez was taken to the Humboldt County jail, where he was booked for cultivation of marijuana and possession of marijuana. He is ineligible for bail due to an Immigration and Customs Enforcement detainer.

fair use disclaimer

You're welcome and good luck. Feel free to hop back in if ever you feel like it. Ab.

This is mainly dealing with Forest Service IFPM and their own version of
IFPM called FS-FPM. I am sending it out so those of you who may be looking
at future jobs with the FS are aware of this information.

It is rather confusing because it includes data and information on the
BLM. This is due to their desire to conduct a joint update on individuals'
progress for both agencies. R-6 was opposed to development of the FS-FPM
but has continued to try and keep both agencies as aligned as possible.

The update process to be used for R-6 and BLM OR/WA will be developed in
late Nov.-Dec. I recently sent out information to all of you who are
working on IFPM quals on what the new standard is for your current
positions and what documentation you will need to have ready for the
update. If you have any question please ask.

Signed JS

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/fed/Vol-17-R6-BLM-IFPM&FS-FPM-Update_2008.ppt (735 K pdf file)

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/fed/2007-crosswalk.pdf (178 K pdf file)

I sent the attachment (4,300K) to Eric. Anyone else that wants it, email me. Ab.

Some talk of an IMT being ordered if conditions don't moderate over the next day, or if contingency lines don't hold.

The original concern was brought forward by the LPF FFMO on Tuesday as fire conditions were changing significantly on the incident. Concerns were based upon reports from the Type 3 IC and his "team" and forwarded upwards to "the Line Officers" for decision.

Several ground resources from SoCal fires were reassigned to the Chalk Fire today, including an aerial armada including ten airtankers, multiple helitankers, helicopters, and aerial supervision.

While the line officers waited, the fire made the ultimate decision, necessitating immediate fire management action.

Gizmo

The attachments are self explanatory and supportive of the California Wildland Firefighters Memorial that is being constructed on the South Main Divide TT just south of SR 74, El Cariso area or about 20 miles south of Corona in the Santa Ana Mountains. This is a wonderful cause and one that I hope that in some way you can help support. Perhaps, you can find time for your department to become part of the effort. Perhaps you can find service clubs that could help sponsor the memorial. There are many ways to find financial support for the Memorial and as fire service leaders, I hope that we can band together to develop that support. Remember that next August 8, 2009 will be the 50 year anniversary of the Decker Canyon Fire (Saturday, August 8, 1959) where 7 noble firefighters died on the Ortega Highway which has also been designated as the California Wildland Firefighter Highway.

Please consider helping. Thank you so very much.

Unit & County Fire Chief John R. Hawkins
CAL FIRE
Riverside County Fire Department

memorial.doc (25 K doc file)
ca-wildland-ff-mem-tri-fold-092208.pdf (150 K pdf file; tri-fold flyer)

Will pass any messages. Ab.

"Hugh, are you advocating a force account air force for fire suppression and
support? Has anyone put a pencil to that idea? Whip, really good post, but
I cannot buy into the force account airforce. Sounds good until you cost
something like that out. Also, I am against mission creep ie search rescue
etc. If folks want to be in that business then go get into it."

My response is, no, not specifically. I am, however, advocating that we get
our act together in wildland or we'll be left behind by other responders who
can think outside the box, or are at least willing to. The state and local
folks, with full DHS support for training and researching/implementing new
technology and ideas, are leaving us in the dust.

The old, antiquated, and tirelessly and endlessly repeated phrase, "Well,
that's not the way we used to ....." or "That's not the way we do it ....."
is, quite frankly, an indicator of the same old tired thinking that has got
us in the mess we're in right now. On 2nd thought, that's being generous,
perhaps knee-jerk reactions based on fear of the unknown is a better way to
put it.

It reminds me of the endless blather about a long-gone time that a certain
politician I saw on the final debate tonight seems to endlessly and
tirelessly espouse.

However, Cynic, don't get me wrong, you are not in that same company: you
are obviously dedicated and concerned and thoughtful. But, from one
ex-cynic to an apparently current one, your moniker speaks volumes. At this
stage in my life, I just don't have any use anymore for cynical or "it ain't
ever gonna' change" attitudes. As Eldridge used to say, part of the problem
instead of part of the conclusion.

Cynic, however, your point on costing it out is well taken, but is
indicative of the antiquated federal and specifically the USFS "ole time"
thinking and solutions, which is basically to continue to low ball solutions
to increasingly complex problems.

CHANGE AGENT: You said you would add two things to the whip's suggestions:

15. Ensure we have the right kind of organization, personnel, and
infrastructure to safely fight fire ten or fifteen years into the future
through serious strategic planning that ties to budget, the National Fire
Plan, pay increases appropriate to the workforce, and Most Efficient Level
funding. Include in this strategic planning year-round staffing that
includes training and exercise time, strategies to move folks from a 7-25
year plan to get qualified for Type I, 2, and 3 ICS positions to a 2-3 year
plan. Figure in projections of future wildland urban interface (WUI)
expansion based on population growth urban development trends, and the
corresponding strategic and force expansion changes that will be needed to
address WUI issues.

16. Get serious about fully integrating in to all-hazard emergency
management. Strategic planning in this area to help build strong national
incident management capability will increase the capability to fight
wildland fires, and will eventually allow others to manage their own
all-hazard incidents more effectively rather than utilizing wildland fire
resources. In the meantime, closer coordination with those in all-hazard
incident management at all levels, including more coordination in Washington
and with Boise, could improve issues that are currently occurring, mitigate
duplication of effort, and increase synergy.

Awesome, simply awesome, and well put. I'll see if I can get you a job in
the next Administration (grin)

Regards,

Hugh Carson

P.S. Tune in Sat night 7:00 pm on your computer www.kvnf.org to hear some
full-tilt boogie blues from yours truly.

You might as well bury your head in the sand and watch the world go by... To beat a dead horse, change -- while sometimes not wanted or popular -- needs to happen. Examples of such are: chainsaws, fire shelters, radios, SCBAs, cellphones, ICS, NIIMS, and the list goes on. Mission creep is not agency driven, but an agency trying to evolve and keep up, and just survive. Part of that change includes, but is not limited to, compensating employees a fair market value, what they are worth. A fair wage for work performed. Sunsets don't put food on the table, pay for braces or car insurance. Or just a decent house for a family.

Do you work in Ca., or even So. Ca.? Some people like working on the ABC forests. Try buying a house here. Don't even bring up Gov't housing. The stuff I remember from almost 20 years ago was almost 50 years old then. Not to mention the fiasco going on on the LPF. Those 1000 hour years are agency driven due to an almost year round fire season, support of FEMA ESF 4, training and plain being busy with more fires.

Like it or not, one way or another, at the current rate of attrition without some type of fair compensation package, caring for the land and watching the sunsets will be outsourced to the contract counties and CDF. Look at the make-up of the Type 1 and 2 teams.

Played on the green team, traded to the blue, but still caring for the land and serving the people.

Former Green Soldier

I agreed with your post until this statement..."We don't work here for the great pay, sure everyone wants more money but the agency has always been about caring for the land."

I realize you started your career "over 30 years ago", but times have changed in those 30 years. I guarantee that the amount of people coming to the National Forests have doubled since you started. You have more people living as close as they can to the National Forests to be..."close to nature" and "away from the city". But what you have to realize is these "city folk" move to the outskirts of our Forests, but they expect all the amenities of the city. So as Casey stated earlier, all they care about is that there is fire station up the road, and not what color the fire engine is.

I am guessing you have worked in remote areas, where the emphasis on the public was not as a priority as "the land". In my almost 10 years in this job, I realize that Caring for the Land, is Caring for the People! Last time I checked when I became a permanent in this job, I swore to be come a Civil Servant of this Great Nation! That meaning I would care for my Country, my Fellow Americans, and this Great Nation!

You can look at this agency 100 years ago, or you can look at it today. The fact is this agency was created for the people, and more so for our children and our children's children. So if our fellow Americans expect us to respond to ANY emergency...Who are we to question that? I for one, would not expect anything but a highly qualified FIREFIGHTER to respond to me in a time of darkness.

Now, how are we to attract the quality of civil servants that the public (who is paying our salaries) expect? I did not get into this job for the money, but being the only EMT on my engine scares me (and my main job is to operate the engine). How are we able to serve our Great Nation and our taxpayers?

Signed
Brushfire

You are right, but with some of us that have received offers from Cal Fire, we are leaning to them for more than just money. This agency used to be about the people, about a special comradeship between individuals that took the job seriously but still had a good time doing it. The FS used to look out for its people, I do not see that anymore. The only time the District Ranger ever comes out to my station is if there is a meeting with one of our cooperatives. The Deputy FMO has never been to my station, we actually have a gentleman's pool as to if they will. The last time I had a barbeque, we invited all the people to it as well as the local Cal Fire Battalion Chief and their local engines. Guess what? All of them showed up as well as their Unit Chief. It looks bad when the State brass can make it, but mine can't. So please do not give us that cr%$ about us few --that are looking at the other side of the fence-- are concerned only about money.

Somewhere along the way our folks have lost sight of what we used to be. So no, its not only money; those things that used to make us a "family" are gone. Trust me it would not take much of a bone thrown my way to get me to stay, because I do bleed green. Your idea that the FS will be better off without folks that are leaving is crazy. Anytime you lose people with 15 to 20 yrs experience, it is going to take you a whole generation to get that back.

I had a long talk with a dear friend of mine on the Oliver fire, this gentleman gave his whole career with the FS and then went to CAl Fire as one or those Superintendents. He told me to go the first chance I got, that I am a fireman first, and at least they recognize that. So no sir, it is not all about the money. Think of what we used to be, I would stay for that.

cynic, you have to remember we are public servants. If there is an accident SAR within the forest, it is our job as public servants to assist these people in their time of need. And that sir, is our business

smokeater

PK

Thanks, it's on Airtankers 23 photo page. Ab.

Thanks, I put them on the Engines 22 and Helicopters 25 photo pages. Ab.

Scio Fire & Rescue: New Brush Truck. We just finished it in house, 2008 Ford F450 4x4, 150 gpm pump, 250 tank w/ foam, We are located on the Westside of Ann Arbor Michigan. Photo compliments of Chris S. (1008)

Thanks, I put it on the Engines 22 photo page. Ab.

Whip, really good post, but I cannot buy into the force account airforce. Sounds good until you cost something like that out. Also, I am against mission creep ie search rescue etc. If folks want to be in that business then go get into it.

This is advocating the same kind of mission creep that has happened in much of R-5 ( and other places) where folks are now rolling on any accident any where close to their station and now it is thought of as part of the job when that was never intended. We have all done it as we should when the situation dictates. We should not be doing it as a routine part of the job, but mission creep has led many places into it.

the cynic

More pics of our IA hoselay off of Vandergrift near the Guard Post at San Luis Ray gate area.

Ryan J

Thanks, great flames. I put them on the Fire 39, Engines 21, Engines 22, photo pages. Ab.

I am amazed when I sit back and think about how all these events unfolded over the past few years. It wasn't too long ago retention was something we spoke about behind close doors at the fire station. Then as things worsened, we increased the pressure throughout 2007 which eventually gave us the Dec 10th 2007 meeting. We kept the pressure on with emails, phone calls and expressing our agenda in meetings throughout 2008. We are on the verge of something positive, maybe a game changer. We got to this point because of the dedication each of you theysaiders out there who said enough is freaking enough. It's time to fight! You began to speak up in those meetings, sent out emails and made phone calls. It's stunning to think that the power of us, forced them to come to the table, delivered 25 million and now the ideas are flowing.

I haven't seen any barracks built yet, no letter of direction on mission and or extra bucks in my wallet. So now is NOT the time to put the feet up and relax. Now is the time stay the course, keep the pressure on and continue to fight for what is right.

We owe so much to wildlandfire.com who gave us a forum that allowed us unite as one.
We owe the world to FWFSA for the incredible work
People, please join FWFSA. For 10 bucks a paycheck you get an association made up of strong men and women, working as one to fight for all Wildland Firefighters 24/7/365.

Stay the course, don't let up, keep up the good fight.

ms

It sometimes takes a long time to bring about change from the ground up. Persist, persist, wildland fire community. Band together. Join FWFSA. www.fwfsa.org/ Ab.

New FireFit program looks good: www.nifc.gov/FireFit/index.htm (text from the intro page)

This program was created with the intent to provide the interagency wildland fire community with a comprehensive, easy-to-follow, fitness program with the ultimate goal of improving firefighter safety and health and reducing injuries. This program provides a basic format for a well balanced fitness program that can be augmented as local units see fit. Program success will rely on management support at every level as well as individual's motivation and participation.

UPDATE ON FOREST SERVICE RETENTION PLAN

I apologize for the length of this post but it is imperative that our firefighters get as much information as possible. The FWFSA has always striven to provide its members and the entire federal wildland firefighting community with accurate, factual information on the many issues facing all of you.

Knowing there are many of you out there who have received job offers from other agencies or even report dates but have indicated a willingness, perhaps even more importantly a desire to stay with the federal system and lacking a published, hard copy of the Forest Service plan or any information from them as to the content and status of the plan, I felt it critical to provide you with the information I have received from Congressional and other sources so far.

Forest Service Chief Gail Kimbell has been briefed on the plan. Yesterday representatives of the Forest Service (not sure exactly who) met with Senator Feinstein's staff for several hours. At present, the Chief is still reviewing the recommendations and, according to sources may take up to another 2 weeks to make her decisions.

Today I communicated again with staff I personally know & trust in the Forest Service WO as well as congressional staff, and emailed R5 Regional Forester Randy Moore to explain that the Agency does not have another 2 weeks to "review" these proposals, the necessity of which has been understood and known for years and years. I reiterated that there are a number of firefighters with "report dates" and job offers from Cal-Fire and others and that these employees need to make a decision in a matter of days, not weeks and deserve to have all the information available to them to make such a critical decision. I will also be crafting yet another letter to the Chief although I don't think she cares too much about what I have to say at this point.

The elements of the plan: (again specific details are lacking so I apologize in advance)

It appears (emphasis added) that the "plan" is specific in nature to R5. That being said the Senator is absolutely committed, as are others in Congress to ensure that reforms are made throughout the Forest Service as well as the other land management agencies. However, the facts are that most losses are occurring in R5.

Of the $25 million appropriated for firefighter retention, only $11.5 million can be used under Mr. Moore's current authority and would likely be used by the end of this calendar year. The remainder is still being "discussed" between the Forest Service and Senator Feinstein's Interior Appropriations staff as to how it would be used.

Last week concerns were raised that the Agency would use these 'firefighter retention" funds to address facilities issues. This is not going to be permitted.

Secondly, the plan proposes raises of up to 20% for R5 firefighters. Again, no details

Thirdly, the plan proposes revisions to the pay structure:

According to consensus of those involved in my briefings, this is the "let's call it anything but portal to portal" proposal. Lacking any further details, it would pay 8 base, 8 OT and 8 base. Again, the methodology of the computation is unclear. There was reference to the current 24 hour staffing plans used in SoCal and, interestingly enough the proposal apparently calls for a 3 year pilot program... yes, I know that sounds familiar. Interestingly the 8 base, 8 OT and 8 base was the foundation of our PTP legislation in 2005. As those of you who have read our current proposal know, this position was revised to 8 base and 16 OT to comply with existing laws.

There is concern in Congress that the Agency will use "budgetary constraints" to delay the implementation of these second & third proposals until start of the fiscal year in October '09. We have already been in contact with the Office of Management & Budget again referencing our proposal that, while calling for true PTP, would also require the federal land management agencies to cut non-federal wildland fire suppression expenditures in each of the 3 pilot program years... 10%, 25% and finally 35% so there would be no "budgetary issue" with funding PTP or whatever they want to call it.

Candidly, using the budget excuse is simply not acceptable. The Agency has indicated to Congress it is still working on their "numbers" for the "not portal to portal" plan. That is frustrating given the fact that the Agency provided the Congressional Budget Office with such numbers in 2005.

Fourthly, the plan apparently addresses classification but not a wholesale creation of a separate and distinct series. No further details.

It is probably not healthy for any of us, especially those of you still on the lines to speculate and theorize as to what will be approved by the Chief. Nor is it time well spent to speculate as to whether she considers herself a "lame duck" Chief and whether that would impact her decision. Unfortunately for those of you with decisions to make, this is all the detail we have right now.

However, maybe it is prudent to pose a couple of questions?

Will a 10% bonus with a "who knows when the other elements will be implemented" plan be enough to retain well-tenured folks, knowing full well that the reasons for the losses already incurred transcend pay & benefits?

What about the rest of the Nation? What about the rest of the Agencies? What about the fundamental reforms needed to create a stronger, more cost effective and efficient fire program?

Again, I can't criticize something that I haven't actually seen. I do think it incredibly important that we all recognize that the Agency would not have made even this much movement on the issues facing their firefighters had it not been for the voices of those firefighters resonating over the last year not only in the press but on Capitol Hill.

Change is difficult for bureaucracies and let's face it, the Forest Service, under the USDA is led by those not all that fond of firefighters. However, whatever the plan proposes, it will represent a significant movement and achievement towards the ultimate goals and objectives.

Once the plan is offered, the FWFSA will re-work its legislative proposal for early introduction next session. Senator Feinstein's staff and others recognize that the real reforms will need legislation and I can say with confidence that her office and many others are on the same page with the FWFSA in what still would be needed to be accomplished.

It is our fervent hope that as so many of you continue to work the lines and risk your lives, the Chief of the Forest Service will step up and take a leadership role on your behalf.

If there is more information that comes available, we will get it out. If I am off point on any of this and anyone from the Agency would like to correct me, please do so.

Respectfully,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

I'm a member of the Student Firefighter Association at Colorado State University where Paul Gleason taught wildland fire classes. We're hosting the 2008 Paul Gleason Memorial Hike up Crosier Mountain near Loveland, CO where Paul organized the largest prescribed burn in Colorado's history. The hike will be this Sunday, October 19. We are also using the hike to help with the Paul Gleason Wildland Fire Scholarship Fund. Attached is more information about the hike. If you could post this and let everybody know that they are welcome to come with us to remember an excellent firefighter, an amazing person, and a fellow "student of fire."

Brett Coghlan
bacoghlan (at sign) msn.com

GleasonHike08.doc (1534 K large doc file)

RR

Ab asked about Area C and got this reply: Region 1, area C....OES terms. North Los Angeles.
Basically Area C is compromised of 11 municipal fire departments. Area C has sent strike teams to the incidents in southern California, however, one department has decided not to send type 1 engines as a part of the mutual aid system. Instead, they sending members of the department to a leadership class.

Dutch Boy, thanks for the specifics. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Illegal huh? Line Officers going before a judge for protecting the land and contributing to the protection of communities and people? I don’t see it personally, but at least now Fire Managers and Line Officers have something in common.

More important; you mentioned you are part of the 2008 recruitment and retention group. Was that the pay group? If so, did you folks have a chance to complete your pay recommendations? Pena - August 29th Memo - Pay is the remaining part of the strategy. That team will complete their work by September 15th. We expect to have the final recommendations for the Regional Forester by the end of September.

What is this now the 5th deadline Pena has missed on this subject in 2008? Jim, in an emergency service organization, words matter. Now you know why some continue to fight for centralized fire. Something will happen that will lead to a significant LE&I type reorganization-- Hummm, I wonder what that something will be..... hummm………

11 days late and counting Jim………………………..

ms

For that contact list, email Ab.

CA-ANF-Marek Fire: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=31315

Be safe all. Ab.

bigsurkate.

Thank you.

Firefighters aim to please. Ab.

RS0802

Thanks, RS and welcome. Very dramatic photos. I put them on the Fire 39 photo page. If you've never visited before, click the words below the thumbnail to read the photo info and credits. Click the thumbnail for the larger image. Ab.

FB

According to the "Red Book" the USFWS does provide fire boots to its employees as they are PPE, However they do limit the purchase price, I got some two years ago with the agency contribution and a durable discount at Whites, my share was $70. The important point is that all federal agencies should provide boots as PPE for safety reasons and then there would be no debate about boots that delaminate. If the employer buys them you always have a choice to cough up your own $220-$350.

Bushman82

...and to add what Monty said, that $540 dollars doesn't go very far. For instance, yesterday I bought a pair of uniform pants, a shirt, a sweatshirt, hat and 2 t-shirts...$300 dollars. The conversion to blue and now the CalFire name change has been very costly to the employee, far and above the $540 annual allowance.

Just saving those receipts for Uncle Sam tax time.

A904G

The BLM, at least in southern ca, does not give the seasonals anything for boots or uniforms. They do give the full time people 400 a year for uniforms, BUT THEY DO NOT PAY FOR BOOTS for anybody in fire. That is something we have been fighting for, for a long time.

JT

FB,

NPS gives seasonals and permanents $100/year for fire boot purchase/repair. I believe
the other DOI agencies, at least USFWS and BLM still do the same, but it's been a
while since I've worked with them. Oregon Dept. of Forestry used to give a decent
reimbursement for seasonals and permanents, but don't know for sure if they still do.

Hope that helps. Cheers.

Waiting to take off my boots for a while...

CAL FIRE gives permanent employees $830.00 a year. $540 for uniforms and $290 for boots.

Seasonal employees get $70 a month. $45 for uniforms and $25 for boots.

All this is before taxes. I net about $540 after taxes.

Monty

The plan written on the LPF about a year ago by a small group of people lead by the Deputy Fire Chief, approved by the Forest Supervisor and passed along to neighboring Forests to use, calls for 24 staffing, 24 hours of pay and 24 hours of IA readiness, period. None of this shift work with Firefighters commuting home or to work late at night. None of this splitting up Eng modules for 12 hour shift periods at the expense of cohesion. 24 hours of pay with appropriate rest periods using ordered stand-by principles outlined in the IIBMH and NFFE Master Agreement. All this came about as one answer to the 2003 Blue Ribbon Commission recommendations from the 2003 Fire Siege. This will be the plan implemented this weekend on the LPF unless someone steps in from the LO or RO ranks to stop it. However Firefighters on the LPF appreciate the support from Randy Moore for 24 staffing with his press release telling the public that Firefighting Resources in So Cal will be ready.

When the 24 staffing plan is implemented, it's done so after much discussion, documentation and with fiscal responsibility. However once the decision is made to implement, it's all-in time. A complete commitment of the organization. 24 staffing starts just hours prior to the start of the wind event and ends as the extreme fire danger subsides. Go get your Key Decision Log and update them to say:

Maximum IA Capability, Maximum IA Readiness, Maximum IA Ability during extreme fire danger associated with a Santa Ana wind event to:

reduce or avoid large fire events
reduce or avoid sustained health and safety exposure to Firefighters from a large fire event.
reduce or avoid the destruction public and private property.
reduce or avoid horrific casualties to the public as we have seen in other So Cal wind events.

ms

Fire fears prompt officials to move fire equipment into the region - PE.com

The threat of San Ana Winds this weekend has prompted the U.S. Forest Service to move additional fire crews, air tankers and other equipment into the Inland area, fire officials say.

Federal firefighters assigned to Southland forests will be working 24-hour shifts. And dispatchers have assigned 20 additional fire engines, 12 heavy air tankers and six Sky Crane water-dropping helicopters to the area, officials say in a written statement.

In the San Bernardino National Forest, five additional engines are raising the total to 30, the statement says. Also available will be four hotshot crews, three air tankers, two large heli-tankers and other support.

Four single-engine air tankers will be available within four hours, officials say.

Response to: Regional Office (RO) Press Release and Local Press Release Additions and "How the Public" sees them:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UNDATED - The Forest Service is ramping up its fire preparedness across
California in anticipation of the season's first Santa Ana winds.

Firefighters are going on 24 hour shifts. Additional fire trucks, air tankers and
heli-tankers have been deployed to strategic locations.

A Red Flag fire warning is out for much of the weekend.

Thirty fire engines are on extended staffing in the San Bernardino National
Forest. An assortment of aircraft are primed for initial attack support.

A rapid response is vital in the event of wind-blown fires.
Story Date: October 10, 2008

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unless there is something wildland fire managers don't know on the San Bernardino National Forest, there will be ONLY be eight or nine locally staffed engines on overnight (24 hour) schedules that alternate between modules to allow for 2:1 work ratios and following the law and agency mandated direction. We'd like to provide better coverage, but cannot unless directed to.... and on the record as being approved by a LINE OFFICER at senior levels (RO or WO) ,

One "off forest" area Type 3 Engine Strike Team (5 Engines) will be used to augment local IA forces during the forecasted wind event on the San Bernardino National Forest.

I'd love to actually get a real time (sign here) quote from folks offering press releases and talking points.

/s/ "Love" Agency Talking Points (Ref the original RO Release intertwined with "local releases" without actual facts that WILL show up in the press today). Touche'..

Attached is the NTSB narrative report finally completed on the tree strike
accident by DC-10 Tanker 910 on the White Fire in Kern County on June 25,
2007. I think reading this will verify what actually happened.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20070703X00873&ntsbno=SEA07TA181&akey=1

Normbc9

MS

Rick retired as did Ed. Sorry to see 'em go. Ab.

• A chronic lack of funding in recent years has severely diminished the Forest Service’s ability to fight fires safely and effectively. Pre-suppression work and training have been sacrificed to pay for suppression costs. Year after year, the focus of Forest Service senior management seems to be on how to muddle through the present fire season instead of making sure we have the right kind of organization, personnel, and infrastructure to safely fight fire ten or fifteen years into the future.
• Despite the many unresolved issues and problems associated with using large numbers of contractors to fight wildland fires, the wildland fire contracting industry has grown exponentially in recent years. During this same period, agency resources have been considerably downsized. At one point during the summer of 2008, an estimated 40 percent of the workforce assigned to wildland fires on federal lands was comprised of contractors.
• Fire costs are increasing exponentially at the same time suppression effectiveness is decreasing. Contracted crews and aircraft are the biggest cost factors driving the upsurge in total firefighting expenses today. Incident commanders and federal firefighters are routinely harassed by bean counters over trivial items while millions of dollars are handed over to companies that have a disincentive for putting fires out.
• Fireline supervisors are increasingly being told that their requests for critical fire operations resources such as Hotshot Crews, Air Attacks, Division Supervisors, Dozer Bosses, Felling Bosses, etc cannot be met (dispatchers refer to this as a UTF or Unable To Fill). Using workarounds to compensate for the lack of qualified fireline supervisors is now the norm. This is a fundamental safety issue that has been developing for many years and has largely been ignored by senior management.
• The Forest Service’s response to fallout from the Thirtymile and Cramer Fires, and Public Law 107-203, has been too little, too late. Entry-level and mid-level fire supervisors are acutely aware that the rules of the game have changed; senior managers do not seem to grasp the magnitude of these changes and what they portend.
• When PL 107-203 became the law of the land, we crossed a dangerous threshold where an honest error in judgment by a well-intended fire supervisor could destroy their career or land them in jail. Weak statements of support for fireline supervisors and offerings of liability insurance demonstrate that senior managers do not understand the scope and scale of this problem nor have any idea what they should do about it. Civil and criminal liability is causing USFS firefighters to become more reluctant to take on supervisory responsibilities, and potential applicants for USFS supervisory positions are seeking employment elsewhere.
• Appropriate Management Response is being used by senior management as an excuse for our increasing inability to field enough skilled firefighters to contain and control large wildland fires during the height of burning season. Forest fires should not be allowed to run unchecked when burning conditions are extreme and large areas will be nuked. There is a major difference between a lower intensity spring or fall fire that cleans up vegetation and creates a mosaic and a mid-summer gobbler that nukes thousands of acres of trees.
• Wildland firefighting safety requires firefighters take calculated risks while a fire is small to prevent it from becoming bigger and posing more risks to more firefighters and private citizens for a greater length of time. Coupled with the AMR “we don’t care if the fire gets bigger” philosophy, firefighters are becoming risk averse to the point of opting to not engage when they could safely do so. Instead of a bias for action, firefighters are developing a bias for inaction. Sitting and waiting for a fire to act up when the environmental factors are in the fire’s favor is not a strategy, it is a resignation. It is also a major safety issue.
• Even though many studies have called for reducing risks to homes and firefighters by developing and maintaining fuel breaks near communities, firefighters are still expected to expose themselves to elevated risks and “make a stand” when fires approach untreated homes. Along with establishing regular fuel reduction treatments on federal lands adjacent to communities, laws mandating fire safe home construction and maintenance of fuel breaks on private lands would improve this situation.
• Although serious injuries regularly occur on wildland fires and forest lands, the Forest Service has failed to develop a system for providing timely medical care for injured firefighters. Shamefully, the Forest Service frequently exploits the capabilities of EMTs employed by the agency but does nothing to help educate, equip, or pay them extra for such work. Yet the agency seems to have no qualms about asking employee EMTs to take personal and civil risks when someone gets injured.
• Because the Forest Service refuses to permit the development of a system to extricate injured employees from backcountry areas, such as helicopter short-haul, injured employees are transported in less-than-ideal ways (such as in a cargo net!), or forced to wait long periods for help to arrive. Again, this is a shameful failure on the part of agency management to act responsibly to correct a recognized deficiency.
• The establishment of firefighting doctrine may eventually produce positive results. At present, doctrine is poorly understood by rank-and-file firefighters and has not been presented well. Until the right of privilege can be granted during wildland fire investigation interviews, we will be unable to fully explore the potential benefits of doctrine.
• Current USFS wildland firefighting wisdom holds that any fire supervisor who is involved in an accident with one or more fatalities should retain a lawyer. Further, it is now considered prudent to ask to have a lawyer present during post-accident interviews and to decline to make any statement that might reflect badly on one’s self.
• In public, our Chief says she supports High Reliability Organizing principles as a means of improving our safety record. James Reason says a Just Culture and Reporting Culture are necessary pre-requisites for a high-functioning safety culture; by that measure, we are clearly heading in the wrong direction.
• Forest Service senior managers need to comprehend that the leadership genie is out of the bottle and can’t be put back. The latest generation of firefighters is taught that with leadership comes an enormous responsibility to tell the truth, regardless of the outcome. Now they expect senior managers to do the same. As politicians have painfully discovered of late, the internet now makes it practically impossible for leaders to keep big secrets and rule by propaganda. Chronic distortions of truth, repeated failures to produce promised information, and parroted “talking points” will not be well-tolerated by our future leaders.
• James Reason, Karl Weick, and other experts tell us that safety is ultimately a by-product of a healthy culture. Viewed through this lens, our present dysfunctional and unhealthy Forest Service culture should be viewed as a failure of this administration and their deliberate efforts to impose their flawed ideology upon our agency.

So what can be done about all of these problems? Fortunately, my list of proposed solutions is much shorter than the list of problems:

1. Elect a new president.
2. End all outsourcing of Forest Service jobs.
3. Discontinue using contracted firefighting resources such as engines and crews in all but limited and rare circumstances. Establish contract agreements with fallers and other skill positions the Forest Service is incapable of providing.
4. Purchase a fleet of helicopters and fixed wing aircraft to perform the bulk of Forest Service firefighting missions. Hire pilots and maintenance personnel to operate and maintain aircraft.
5. Re-establish many of the critical district and forest level functions that were outsourced or eliminated during the Bush years such as HR, contracting, computer support, fleet maintenance, radio techs, etc, etc.
6. Mandate that maintaining a long-term capability to use prescribed fire and manage wildland fires on federal lands is an inherent government responsibility and function. As part of this commitment, the government must build and then maintain a federal firefighter workforce sufficiently large enough to assure we will always have a sufficient pool from which to draw our future fire supervisors and program leaders.
7. Use prescribed fire work as a training ground for developing and refining requisite firefighting skills. Re-establish district Brush Disposal crews as a supplement to firefighting crews and a training platform for learning how to use chainsaws, pumps, etc.
8. Initiate a plan to establish fuel breaks on all federal lands adjacent to dwellings within ten years, and to then maintain these fuel breaks in perpetuity.
9. In areas where the cost-of-living is considerably higher than national average, provide government housing for employees or offset with COLA.
10. Re-enable the National Fire Plan at 110% Most Efficient Level (10% extra to increase lower/middle management ranks to make up for 8 years of neglect and the current acute shortage).
11. Get Congress to rescind PL 107-203 and enact a federal law protecting ALL wildland firefighters, not just feds, from unreasonable criminal and civil liability.
12. Organize, equip, staff and train existing helitack crews to perform medevacs and emergency extrications. Develop wildland fire/EMT career path, increase pay rate.
13. Put real fire leaders in all positions of responsibility within the fire program.
14. Remove from positions of responsibility or forcibly retire of ALL of the eggsuckers who drank Mark Rey’s kool-aid.

That should about do it.

Misery Whip.

What specifically will be done in decentralizing the BDF fire organization?

What will be the end result look like compared to the present organization?

I'm sorry to hear Dietrich is leaving. He is one of the few FMOs that will
speak up on behalf of the whole fire community, from bottom to top, in a
public forum.

Shortterm

Mike pulls no punches as a fire leader. He speaks up for groundpounders, and issues astute warnings at incident fire briefings, including using technology and mapping to illustrate his points and keep people safe.

He has been graceful and supportive of his forest's line officers from interactions I've observed between them at meetings. Body language speaks volumes in his willingness to be a team player. On the other hand, Mike also speaks truth to power when replying to Region 5's Chief-Forester, to Sub-Forester Pena~ and to Ed. Mike would have made a mighty fine R5 Chief, of the same inspirational caliber as Ray Quintanar. That's probably why the others who have control, but no fire knowledge, jerked him around until he turned in his retirement date. What a LOSS!

On the three norcal complexes I've observed Mike's IM Team on, I've repeatedly amazed at the grace and skill he has as an IC. He's a MASTER at interaction! When he talks with different people, he gives the sense of really considering your input and making thoughtful decisions and responses. He listens and is "touched" by those around him while knowing his own core strength and experience. He's clear and communicates complex issues simply. Given those attributes, he is able to effectively negotiate among disparate groups including tribes, cities, towns, communities and other agencies. Amazing knowledge and expertise there as well as advocacy for groundpounders!

In my opinion, in the drive of the Region 5 REMFs to have ultimate Line control, they're slitting their own Forest Service throat. Driving the Mike Dietrich's out of the Fed fire world is like heading down the subprime mortgage path, to mix metaphors. We saw the first of that trajectory in a very ugly way with Chief Feser leaving the Angeles due to Jody NoIron and Pena~ leveraging against fire crew cohesion, which is critical in keeping fire forces safe.

What a bunch of fools are running the FS in SoCal and regionally. I hate to say it. With great experienced safety-fostering fire leaders leaving and no concerted effort to train groundpounders -- to understand and tactically react to changing fire behavior -- we're in for some very hard and RISKY times both for firefighters on the ground and Americans on the Interface.

Doctrine be dammed if you do not have the experienced fire leaders to evaluate the experience level of the troops they're leading, as REMFs issue "commander's intent". I hope the next fatalities that occur are laid at the feet of the Regional Chief, the Regional Forester and Pena~ -- oh yeah, can't blame Pena~ now, he just set firefighters up for TRAGEDY and has moved on to an AZ detail, like those CEOs taking the golden parachute.

It takes a lifetime for the raw talent and intelligence of a Mike Dietrich to develop into the mature TRUE LEADER and Incident Command Team MANAGER. I wish I had been in a position to interact, observe and pick his brain. Personal opportunity lost. I hope someone interviews him for the Leadership website.

Keep on buying those subprime mortgages, Randy, (Pena~), and Ed. At some time the FS Market will crash and burn.

Mellie

Perhaps this has something to do with the retirement of Chief Mike Dietrich,
and the regions denial of his retention bonus request, or perhaps I am just
becoming too cynical.

Another SZ Chief Officer

Haw Haw. Last time that was circulating I got it from firefighters directing it towards Ventura Co Firefighters and another time towards CDF (old time) firefighters. Evidently the butt of the joke changes at will... but the brains and brawn thing is a bit misplaced on this one. Truly, the FS line officers I know are not brawny, although many are fit, and they do have brains and training in their professional specialties.

One riddle I heard as a very little kid: What's round and has a thousand squares? .... Ab.

(A roll of Toilet paper!!!)

Noname Fire

I expect some of that is happening now. Casey too. Ab.

Since they are a local government HC crew, not a federal HC crew, are they going
to get Portal to Portal on fires, both fed and state and out of state.

Justwondering

Ironically but not surprisingly in this era of "chase those away that have not bought into the anti-fire movement within the USFS", Mike requested the Senator Feinstein retention bonus. Region 5 Office denied his request. The next day, Region 5 Office advertised his impending vacant position, but now with the retention bonus. You know that Senator Feinstein committed $25 million to our USFS Region 5 for the recruitment and retention of firefighters.

Talk about chasing someone out the door! Dandy Randy the Climber, Dim Jim and Hollowhead Ed in action!

Something must be done about the dictatorial and reprisal ways of the current administration. If you aren’t into pushing aside the fire control program, then the in crowd will find a way to dump you. Sad note in a democratic society by an agency who provides every bit of HR protection to everyone except the superior performers. Heck, everyone knows that life is not fair but this administration isn’t even discreet in how they work over the non-believers. The end victim is the Public who will suffer with the loss of these superior fire control people.

The retention request was from a man who has devoted his entire life to the USFS, a man who probably suffered in his private life due to his total agency commitment. Whether you love or dislike Mike Dietrich (I doubt many hate him), you have to respect him for his stand on what is always right for the right reason. Mike walks the walk even to his fault when it came to a simple request for the retention bonus.

It is time for a change even before the election. The change needs to publicly condemn certain individuals. I hope those suspect individuals are reading and cannot sleep. As a wildland firefighter, I am having a hard time sleeping with such behavior while our USFS top level executives continue to hold the public trust.

Signed,

Wise Old Fire Dawg

DRD

Very good questions, Lobotomy. It's not only the federal "land management agencies" but also State firefighting agencies we need to ask the questions of. One incident that comes to mind is the burnover on the CA-INF-Inyo Complex-Seven Oak. I don't know how those young people are doing, what kind of ongoing treatment they've been given or if it's OWCP related, but general feeling is that there was very poor discovery of their medical condition. Ab.

http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/swcg/operations/memorandums/documents/ihc_granite_mtn_certification_092608.pdf

Here is the link from SWCC,

It is now OFFICIAL, Prescott AZ FIre Dept's "Granite Mountain Crew 7" is now officially recognized as "Granite Mountain IHC"

Thanks for all the great work you do

Mike
Prescott AZ

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=6950

Ab.

Ab,

I wrote this story at the request of my Alumni president to share with my
high school.

The only embellishment is that I arrived at the base of Storm King Mountain
at about 22:00 the evening that everyone perished.

I was on the Voyageurs 1 Type II crew out of Minnesota.
I spent about 7-8 days on that terrible steep slope.

I came off the Pyramid Rock fire in Debeque CO earlier that day and I
will never forget how hard the wind blew, a wind that I have never seen
since in 14 years.

Feel free to post on They Said if you think it is appropriate.

I am fine either way.

Do not include my name.
Most of the State of MN firefighters know my Moniker.

Thanks,

Lucky Lindy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The rotor blades were still turning as the 11th body of the 14 missing
firefighters was being unloaded from the helicopter.
The day was July 6th 1994,
Location,
The base of Storm King Mountain, later know as the South Canyon Fire
near Glenwood Springs, Colorado.


I had been standing a few hundred feet away from the fatalities trying
not to look at the bodies, but I found myself casting quickened glances
at the deceased, hoping that I would not be able to remember this picture in the future.
A hope that soon diminished as the nightmares continually reminded
me for over 2 years.

Unfortunately the time of 14 brave souls had run out the day Before on
July 5th 1994.

The sands of their hour glass had filled in at the bottom, never to be turned over.
By July 6th all had been located and flown off of Strom King Mountain
into an opening in the middle of Glen Wood Canyon Estates sub division.

Critical incident Stress Debriefing commenced the next day with my fire
crew.

We all expressed different emotions form crying to sobbing, others would
simply say nothing.


My guilt was accompanied by the memories.
Survivors guilt is the term.

Why couldn’t it have been me.
I should have been one of those to die.

Maybe if I had been right there, I could have noticed something in the
weather or fire behavior that may have been able to save them.

But in life and death we all have to come to the reality that there is
no turning back the clock.


The date was early spring in 1999.
My fire crew along with 8 Smoke Jumpers from
Boise Idaho had just
finished the fireline across the Mountain from Red Lodge MT, when the
second of 2 fire fronts came at us.

To the South, I again noticed the all too familiar orange glow, similar to
a dusty wind blown sunset, grow slowly closer.
I looked at the Jumpers and said we have another Fire Front coming at
us.
We all looked in that direction and saw the fire heading toward us.

We began to light a back fire along a small Two Track Dirt road on the North Side of the fire.

Time stood still, it was as if I was moving, thinking and seeing
through all my senses, acting out in a movie which was playing in slow motion
instant replay.

Although it seemed like 10 or more minutes had passed until fire front
hit us.
I later guessed less than 2 minutes or so had passed.


We began lighting a backfire in the pine trees.
When I became separated from the smoke jumpers and my crew.

Suddenly out of the fire, came someone who I thought was a Smoke Jumper.
He told me you need to get out of here now.
As I turned to escape the flames, I suddenly noticed that I had fire on 3
sides of me with only one way out, a narrow opening in a box canyon wall
of fire only 30-40 feet wide.

I headed for that opening and ran through it.
When I emerged the spot fires were flying all over me, and starting new
fires, as I ran over and around them.
I made contact with the Incident Commander just as he was yelling,

Everybody run.

We all ran to a designated safety zone, caught our senses and began
attacking the fire from another safer anchor point.

I will never know if the being who appeared out of the flames and
directed me to leave my back fire and get out of there was a Smoke
Jumper, or an Angel.
I have often thought that this must have been an angel.

One thing I do know is that after 20 years of being a firefighter with
the Federal Government and fighting over 500 wild fires, that God's hand
has been there all the time to guide myself and my crew.

Although I have been involved in incidents with over 15 fire fatalities
and one serious Helicopter crash, neither myself, nor anyone under my
supervision has ever received a moderate or serious injury.

The Lord has been there to guide me.

Yea though I walk through the valley of the smoke and the flames, I will
fear no evil, for thou art with me.

I am shocked and saddened to hear the news of the passing of "Big John" Russell.
I was one of John's Ops Chiefs when the Great Basin first merged the Interior
Teams and Forest Service Teams back in '85. It was a truly a rewarding and
learning experience to work with John and he made a huge impact on me and my
philosophy for when I moved into a Type I IC chair.

My condolences to his family, Big John was great man and great teacher.

Rest in peace John.

Hutch

Hi Ab.

I m working on a narrative about the Rattle Fire. I 'm interested
in receiving any images of fire camp/fire line/air ops that fire crews/support staff may
want to share. Written accounts welcome as well. Credit for submissions
will be cited.

Thanks,
Alexis West, Public Information Officer,
email for project: pinepixie @ gmail.com

Haw Haw on the total personnel. Good SA. I got someone to check and it was 1489, so a typo or maybe an attempt at containing the costs by pencil whipping the sit rep? Ab.

One more photo sent in by the original theysaider. I posted it on the Helicopters 25 photo page. Ab.

Our condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of John Russell. Ab.

The requirements are 1 year as a GS-4, time in grade for all Merit promotions. The FFT1 is also required. To get the GS-5 is not an automatic, which means you still after accomplishing the previous items, you would still need your Supervisor to cut the 52 to get the upgrade. I recommend that you keep up with your Administrative Officer as to the exact time you meet the 1 year in grade, so as soon as your eligible your supervisor can get your upgrade for you. This GS-5 in the apprentice ship program is a great tool for your future promotions, so as soon as you get that 5 you can start applying for the GS-6 level after you get the time in the GS-5 grade level on merit promotion. Hang in there the Forest Service is in desperate need of the up and coming GS-6 level employees.

Dave G

BullheadCityFD *WILDLAND FIRE* GOLD SHORES AREA Units onscene of a 328 acre fire that is about 30% contained. This is about 20 miles S/O of Bullhead City. A DOC Supervisor from Globe was onscene when he stopped breathing. Pt was transported to a nearby hospital. Pt was pronounced at the hospital. This fire started Tuesday. [ICP-BCFD-PIO,444]

ML

Thanks for the private heads up, Mike. There has been a public announcement, so I am posting this now. Our condolences to the family, friends and coworkers of Sergeant Falconer. Ab.

I young lady from Paradise H.S. put together a great poster with all the Thank You signs from the Butte County area this year. If you don't mind where the Thank You's came from this may be a very good start for your project. I don't have her contact #'s but I believe you can contact her via the Paradise Post, Paradise, CA. The writer of an article about it can be contacted at edealwis @ paradisepost.com

danfromord

"Sorry, this site must be accessed through an agency page." was the error message I got after filling out 12 KSA's on Avue tonight. I am so furious I contemplated quitting working for an agency that would use such a STUPID application. Avue has been nothing but a horrendous headache since the day I started for this agency. What an utter waste of my time. With all the retention deadlines missed, and empty promises, I don't know if I can go on...I am SO OVER IT! Where are the answers?? Where are the reports promised on Sept. 30th?! When does this madness end?

Miserable in SoCal

SW

Got a hold of this picture recently. Very Close Call.

JMD

Willamette NF Danger Tree.

Just passing along a sobering reminder about how quickly and how badly (could have been alot worse) being in the wrong place at the wrong time on a wildfire can be. Ray H<snip> poses atop what's left of his vehicle after a fire weakened Douglas Fir broke off and fell onto the road where he and another firefighter had just parked to check out some of the fire. They heard the tree crack as they stepped out and ran hard to get away. This was truly a close call. Another vehicle had pulled away from this spot a few seconds before.

This is on the Kitson Fire, on the Willamette National Forest. It happened about 4:30 PM on September 26, 2008.

My name is Annalisa, I live in Big Sur, CA... After surviving thru this year's Basin Complex fire, (and the Summit fire in Santa Cruz), my 17 year old daughter and I took notice of all of the "thank you" signs that so many people hand made, and we started to photograph them in order to "immortalize" them in a book of "gratitude" to all the firefighters... we began this project in late July.

Our intention was to make a photo-book, with no text (the signs speak for themselves) and to donate a good portion of the proceeds to the WFF... (We held two benefits in Big Sur, for our own VFB and the WFF and raised several hundred dollars for each! : ) ........

On August 28th, my daughter Rachel Love Wiesjahn ,was killed by a drunk driver in a hit and run on HWY 1 in Big Sur... I feel I MUST complete this project, only now I think that it may be too late to take a road trip thru CA to take pictures, signs may have been taken down in most places. My reason for writing this to you is this: is there a way for you to put out an announcement (even nationally, fires know no borders!) to anyone with a photograph of a "thank you firefighters!" or "Firefighters are HOT!"...to have them e-mail them to me, so I can compile this book from here??

I haven't worked at all since my girl's dying, and I'm going a little stir crazy listening to the reports of how the rains will most likely call for more evacuations in Big Sur this winter. Not if, but when I get this book out it will helpfully sustain me (and my 11-year-old daughter, Cassidy...) thru the mudslide-road-closed-no-money-from-tourists-time that we're all gearing up for! I look forward to your reply, if you can help me get this going ASAP it would really be greatly appreciated!! Thanks again, Annalisa PS: now I'm off to check bigsurkate's blog about our newest one...The Chalk fire, too close to friends' homes...

Annalisa
blondelogicinc @ yahoo.com

Higher resolution is better. Ab.

Already have gone down that road. It seems our entire Forest thinks that
they will have to lay-off all non-PFT tours for, at least a while this winter.
Predominantly, in the past, we have been able to get a few pay periods out
of Rec, Trails, or Wilderness, but this year, with the tightening budget,
none of those departments have any money to spare. Don't get me wrong, I'd
love a pay raise, but I'd rather be protected all year.

BPW

Go sit down with your Ranger. Let him/her know that you want to work in
whatever program has needs rather than be laid off. Be willing to learn timber,
recreation, engineering etc, wildlife.....whatever it takes to stay fully employed.
They'll know that paying unemployment costs nearly as much as regular salary.

Heck, maybe a higher paying PFT job in another program will open up. You
can still stay involved in fire.

Good luck.

OFG

When you said you were cleaning out your desk, and sent me that great blast
from the past "white paper"... I never knew.

I figured you were just doing some annual cleaning.

Best wishes on your retirement my friend, and even better wishes in your new
career and undertakings!!!

Lobotomy

Hazard Trees can be Green or Burned - - - > Reminders for field-going folks

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/safe/tree-strikes-youre-out.doc

text: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=30920#post30920

One of the longest-time contributors here. Thanks for that. Happy trails in your new fire career, my friend. Don't be a stranger. Ab.

Now, I have a wife, as well as, 3 kids to feed and I may be in the
minority here, but the fact that I may not have a job for 8 pay periods
scares the he__ outta me. In my 8 years of service, 4 as a 13-13 and 4 as
an 18-8, I have never been laid off for more than the default 1 pay period.
So, for me, if I had to choose from a pay raise, or a PFT tour of duty, I'd
definitely take the PFT. Just my thought. Thanks for the hard work.

BPW
Engineer, Engine <snip> R3

PS, I don't live in CA and the unemployment here is not great. Not
enough to feed the family.

PSS, Sorry Ab, but can somebody please elaborate on this 25 million dollar
bag of money. I've been in the basement for awhile. Thanks.

Here is a great 45 minute video on a few of the dimensions of Just Culture
that Dekker sees as important to safety.

People interested in APAs and FLAs should definitely read his book on Just
Culture and this is a good primer.

The movie is HUGE, so I recommend cutting and pasting the link into a new
browser window.

http://citrix.tfhs.lu.se/sd/JCL/Just Culture Lecture_mpg4.mov (video)

Also, here is great 20 minute video on resilience ... its virtually a
doctrine monologue.

http://citrix.tfhs.lu.se/sd/rlv/Resilience Long Version_mpg4.mov (video)

If you can't open the video, you probably have a newer FS computer that
lacks "quicktime". You can download quicktime free at:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/

SH

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=30879#post30879

I just finished reading a good article about contractor death benefits in Firehouse Magazine(pg.20) written by Hal Bruno, recently retired as Chairman of the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. It is nice to see some recognition for contract employees who work next to us feds. all summer. Don't know if it's on the website yet but sure it will be soon.

Stay Safe,
A2HS