06/29/2009 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Governor Schwarzenegger Establishes Blue Ribbon Task Force Further Ensuring California is Prepared when Disaster Strikes
http://gov.ca.gov/press-release/12598/

"As part of his ongoing commitment to emergency preparedness, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today issued Executive Order S-12 -09 (EO) to reinforce California's vigilance in protecting lives and property from wildfire. The EO directs the Blue Ribbon Task Force (BRTF) to ensure that recommendations made by the Governor's Blue Ribbon Fire Commission, established after California's catastrophic 2003 wildfire siege, continue to be implemented." ...

... "Additionally today, Governor Schwarzenegger announced the two co-chairs and 14 members of the BRTF. He designated California Professional Firefighters President Lou Paulson and Alameda County Fire Chief Sheldon Gilbert as members and the two co-chairs, and designated State Fire and Rescue Chief Kim Zagaris, Los Angeles County Fire Chief P. Michael Freeman, CDF Firefighter IAFF 2881 President Bob Wolf, Ventura County Fire Chief Bob Roper, Orange County Fire Chief Chip Prather, CAL FIRE Director Del Walters, San Diego City Fire Chief Tracy Jarman, Assistant State Fire Marshal Tonya Hoover, San Bernardino County Fire Chief Pat Dennen, California State Firefighters Association Member and Riverside City Fire Marshal Mike Esparza, United State Forest Service Region 5 Fire and Aviation Management Director Ed Hollenshead and Governor's Office Public Safety Liaison Tom Sawyer as members of BRFT."

Note: My bold added for emphasis in the above quote.

Lobotomy

RETIRED IN 2009 ?

Hi Ab:

I hope you'll allow us to use TheySaid to try and locate some of our members who have retired, or may have retired this year as we would like to properly recognize them.

OK, you know who you are...If you've been an FWFSA member and retired this year and casually slipped away from federal employment, there are several of you we'd like to contact in order to recognize your retirement and contribution/support to the FWFSA.

If you believe you fall into this category, please personally email me at cjudd@fwfsa.org or phone me at 208-775-4577.

Thanks in advance.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

AP: White Firefighters Win Supreme Court Appeal

AKFSS

Condolences to Brett's family, friends, and coworkers. I didn't know Brett, but he was part of our fire family and we're
made smaller by his death. God bless you and your family, Brett.

Todd

From another person:

Can you point to where I may find a canned course with some standardization? Here in the Planning and Information shop of the State EOC that question keeps surfacing. We push it to DENR-Forestry but it keeps coming back. If there is a course other than what I have taught in the Northeast and Mid-West it will be greatly appreciated. Getting the story out safely is what it's all about.

Sounds like content includes what journalists need to be safe when reporting, for example as fire approaches. In CA, some journalists that did not get out soon enough have had some very near misses. As far as course content, Ab will pass along any info.

Funeral Information:

Funeral services for Firefighter Brett Stearns Stearns have been scheduled for
Wednesday, July 1 at 11 a.m.
at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Chapel,
1295 W. Ninth Street
in Craig, Colo.

Ab,

Regarding the journalist that desires fire training, have her call (916) 653-5123 This is the 
number for the CALFIRE Academy in Ione. They have classes for journalists. 

They may have one at the Clark Training Center in Riverside, which would be closer to her. 
Their number is (951) 940-6985 - Public Affairs and Training Bureau.

Tom

Added the BLM News Release and the 24 Hour Report to that thread. Ab.

Details on the Lessons Learned and Safety Zone portion of the Hotlist.

Our condolences.

Ab.

I could forward your contact info to her. Ab.

Thanks but the courses offered under national fire training are the ones held in Alaska in April 2010.
I just retired from Region 8 and do have a sponsor under the USDA FS but decided to get into
fire and that is why I am looking for S260 & S261; from those classes I can decide whether to go
to PTRC, Demob etc but first I must find these two classes so everyone just keep looking and if
you know of any States that are having them, just let me know.

Again thanks

J

Noname

That link is on the links page under training. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Ab.

Has the incidence of fireline fatalities gone down?
(Incidence = The frequency with which something, such as a disease, appears in a particular population or area.)

Has the use of radios gone up?

Are the two even inversely correlated? Do we know if those who died and those who lived did or did not have
radios?

Heck, until recently we haven't even had a true record of who's died. We still certainly don't have a record of living
firefighters on the line. Maybe ROSS will change that?

Two things like radio (yes/no) and fatality (yes/no) can covary without being causally related; or other things like
training in fire behavior prediction (for example CPS) and applying LCES to the prediction can influence to both
increase radios and reduce fatalities (if that turns out to be the case). (How many holes are there in a swiss
cheese model and what part, if any, do radios play?)

In my opinion, there's no way we can get an inkling into causation regarding relatively rare events like burnover fatalities
without after action lessons learned. And we got'ta learn from all near misses and non-fatal accidents, too!

Mellie

http://scofmp.org/reb/kf/training.shtml

Although you've missed the majority of opportunities, a slow start to the season may allow for more training
opportunities. I took my class mid-season.

I would encourage you to make contact directly with local agencies, community colleges, district offices or go
national if you have to, to get your name on a list for a class.

As you probably know, this is an entry level class that can get you into a fire assignment (check-in/demob, etc.)
at an incident base.

So, In the worst case scenario? If you can't find the class that you need, convince others that they need it and
get the class put on locally somewhere.

Twenty hours in class for a two week assignment can be worth it.

R5VetFF at your service!

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/safe/Alert-ChainSawChaps.pdf

This may seem like a dumb question, but are there any studies showing that the
increase of radios on the fireline has reduced firefighter fatalities?

Thanks,
Domaque.

To R5VetFF -

I did a search of NWCG but only found Alaska in April 2010 -
where did you do the simple research that found these two classes?

Thanks
J

Fire crews from the United States are being mobilized (one there, two traveling, and more going) to
Canada from the Eastern Area to assist in the wildfire suppression operations. The state crews are
coming from the Northeast Forest Fire Compact which has worked hard over the past year to ensure
exchanges like this are smooth and fast (Less than one day from order to travel). I know two federal
crews (1- Type 1 and 1- Type 2 IA) that are available nationally, and have been for sometime, that
were pasted over because it would take too long to mobilize them (International Travel, NICC
request, etc.). Maybe the feds could learn something from the states and compacts?

J (another one)

Sims Fire (posted on Fire 40 photo page)
Briefing map (both from a day and a half ago)

CA-KNF-Sims 6/23/09: Sent at 2100 hours, the day it started and now "making the rounds". 
Message with it as follows: My mapping skills show 165 acres at this time... Div A fire did not slop down off the ridge by much Div Z continued to be an issue with spots and extreme torching..... Tanker application was not conducive due to the steep terrain and no safe exits out to the east or west.... Crews should make good progress tonight along with rotorwing application in the morning.......

Thanks for that. Ab.

See the Jobs Page for info.

OA

Ab,

Could you please post this note and attachment to they said. I have not heard much buzz about the vacancy
announcement being open for the program and want to help folks take advantage of the "calm" we are
observing before fire season kicks into high gear. Apprenticeship Outreach Doc

We also want to take a moment and thank the apprentices, cadres, and staff who make this program robust
by giving back whenever they can. We are truly fortunate to have your help.

Thank you all....

DH
www.wfap.net

Ab and all -- haven't posted for a VERY long time, but after reading some of the posts about the new FS Chief, I thought I'd throw in my two cents -- for what it's worth.

Firefighters throughout the F.S. and all agencies should get a big morale boost with the new selection. The bio on Tom Tidwell is pretty generic -- it says he began his career on the Boise Forest. What it doesn't say is that he began as a ground pounder - a smokechaser. Our crew hiked to the fires, worked hard, played hard and were provided with a solid foundation not only in fire, but in life, and with the F.S. family. We had strong leaders, caring supervisors and were taught the fundamentals of fire -- in the class and on the ground. If I had to vote about the F.S. quality at that point in time -- it would be a 1 -- not 206. It was like a "Lassie" reality show.

Tom Tidwell was just a kid of 22 years -- we all were kids then -- but instilled in that crew was years of shared fire knowledge from our bosses, a huge work ethic, comradery and "taking care of your folks." I haven't spoken to Tom in many years, but I truly believe the positive traits of character and integrity ingrained in him didn't just melt away, but carried on from the "kid" to the man. I have faith that he has not forgotten his roots or his fire family. I wish you all well under the new leadership (and I won't say anything nasty about the agency I left in a huff from!)

Cache Queen

Thanks Cache Queen, we value your input. Ab.

I vote for the Latin "Semper Paralysis" or in English "Always Paralyzed".

Outside the box thinking is hard to do in the Forest Service! But I am just Human Capital
trying to figure out what Planned Ignition is (isn't that what happens when I turn the key in
my vehicle ignition?. What do I know?)

domaque

Quick Connect,

Contact your local NFFE representative to file an grievance stating your information and a request for a personal
classification desk audit. If you are not on a NFFE represented Forest and don't have anyone to contact to help
you through the steps, please contact me through Ab and I'll put you in touch with a local NFFE person to help you.

I have been actively involved in all three "national" "GS-8 Captains Desk Audits" and followed the mess of the last
one and how it was applied and censored..... and know the issue inside and out and the barriers that are being shoved
in your face in terms of classification... and have regularly shared info with NFFE as a member of an allied association
with similar goals.

If you are on a NFFE Forest, your local NFFE representative can also contact me through Ab for consultation or
dvice.

Lobotomy

Check this out..............

Listen and Purchase the cd here........... (second track)

www.davealvin.net/home.html

TC

Rockin Blues. I like it! Ab.

I forgot to weigh in on this a few days ago. Thanks for the reminder. I like the coffee mug idea as well.
Porcelain option would be great so it can be used around the office or station. I also like the continuance
of Black Tuesday phrase, "206 out of 216 Can You Hear Us Now?" and something to tie in Wildland
Firefighters.

Signed,

Never forget Black Tuesday - April 1, 2008 - The Day They Lied from Coast to Coast

PS: This was also the day elected officials started listening and delivered 25 million and 10% retention
bonuses for our GS 5-8's and it will eventually bring us PTP! Stay Tuned........... Speaking of staying tuned,
I think it's about that time for another update from Moore on his retention plan, Mr. Email (Pena) and the
person who is occupying the office of our R-5 FAM Director. Did we ever fill that job?

I like the idea of coffee mugs! I would buy a couple.

However, sending one to Ed would likely be a waste of time. This is the guy who got rid of his vehicle presumably because he sees no need to have the flexibility to travel to fires at a moments notice to 'connect' with the firefighters on the ground. The same guy that refers to folks speaking up for positive change as 'whiners' in a recent conference call. The same guy that has turned his back on all of us!

Now, I think our new chief might just appreciate it as a symbol of the tough job ahead of him. I, for one, hope we can offer Tidwell our support and possible solutions in a joint effort to defeat the corrosive attitude our current and recent managers have fostered. We are professional firefighters, regardless of series or label, i.e. forestry technician. For us to lead up, we must continue to fight the good fight while keeping focused on the job at hand, getting ourselves and our charges home safely. We deserve good leaders, but must continue to be good leaders to effect change. I do not think it will happen before I retire, but my hope is that the youngsters coming up behind me will reap the rewards of the struggle.

All for one, one for all!

206 Hotshot,

I like coffee and I like your thinking. Coffee mugs would be a great idea, you can even send them
as gifts to let's say the new Chief, Ed Hollenshead, so on...... So far I like the

"206 out of 216, Can You Hear Us Now"!, slogan.

DirtMiner

R-1 Engine Boss (6/18)

I hear you, loud and clear! I recently posted about the Morale issue here in R-3. On our Forest, we have seven Type 3 Engines and seven Type 6 Engines. All the Type 3 Engine Organizations are the same. Captain GS-8, Engineer GS-7, Lead GS-6 and Senior GS-5. Just recently, three of the Type 6 Captains went through the "Complexity Analysis." It was decided that only three, of the seven Captains were "Complex" enough to be considered for the GS-8 promotion. I, now happen to be working for a GS-8 Engine Captain on a Type 6 Engine. I am still a GS-6. I have raised the issue of why this is. I was told by our FFMO, that there are only three "Engine Organizations" to choose from. (Which came down from the WO.)

1. GS-8-7-6-5, which I alluded to earlier.
2. GS-8-6-5, which is the one that I'm on.
3. GS-7-6-5, which is the one that they placed you on.

After doing some research on the Position Descriptions relating to every "fire" personnel at my District, every PD is rated in the "High Complexity" category. That is, everyone but mine. I grade out at "Low Complexity." Even the Fire Prevention Person is High Complexity.

Also, how can some Type 6 Captains be GS-8's and others be GS-7's??? Working in the same areas??? Great for Morale!

Another good piece of contradictory FS literature. Every Forest in our entire Region has been labeled as a "High Complexity Forest." However, when you break it down to each District on those Forests, "The Powers That Be," have decided that "Moderate Complexity" would be a better fit. So, to summarize, Each Forest is High Complexity, but each District is Moderate Complexity. Furthermore, if every District is Moderate Complexity, then how are those Type 6 Captains getting the GS-8 promotion? Quizzical?

Casey,

Your 6/18 comments on the Forest Service Chief position, couldn't have been any better communicated. The only thing that I found to be in error was when you referred to Chief Kimball calling us firefighters, lol. (forestry techs).

Quick Connect

OC,

Line officers may have some very valid reasons for their decisions to lateral qualified candidates into a vacancy. The program the individual works in may be unfunded (and the FS employee has a right to a job). The individual may have a strong interest in diversifying their career experience (demonstrated by having the fire quals for the position). They may be a potential line officer, and "management" recognizes the need for more fire experience (and who wants to argue against having line officers with a background in fire). Personal family needs may have necessitated a change in location.

Works both ways. I've seen fire budgets reduced to the point where we faced cutbacks. Other "resource program" managers found work to ensure full time employment for primary firefighters.

Agreed that folks should have the quals to get the job.

Lastly.....there is no "fire organization" there is a FS organization with a "fire program". You don't work for the Fire Service, you work for the Forest Service. There is no, and should be no criteria of "well, I've been here longer" in evaluating a candidate.

OFG

Ab.

DirtMiner,

Not sure who could take it on, but T-Shirts are a good idea, but in fire everyone wears their crew / team t-Shirt or
Sweat Shirt. One thing most folks have in their hand is a Travel coffee cup during briefings. Every one standing in
briefing with one would be impressive...............

206 Hotshot

h,

Please, please, please don't read more into my post than what was said. There were no stones thrown
at the wildlife biologist. The post was to show another example of line's ABILITY (not a comment on
line officers or the new fire managers) to hire over and around those already in the fire organization for
fire management positions and that it has occurred at least 3 times in the last 3 months on at least 3 forests.

OC

Happy to pass info on. Ab.

Ab will be happy to pass any replies on to Casey or you can email him directly casey@hotmail.com. (Haw Haw) It would have been nice if we did not need to bail out the greedy companies to keep the whole kit-and-caboodle from going over the precipice. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The small Type IV Belt first aid kit (NFES 1143), has always been and will always be inadequate for cross cut, chainsaw or fireline operations. The addition of two large guaze pads will not remedy this situation in the slightest. The contents of the kit (I believe) are only there to fall within the letter of the law as an OSHA requirement.

I doubt that there is anyone utilising this kit as it was originally intended. If you are, you are relying on a kit that does not contain sufficient items to deal with a serious injury, let alone several injuries.

Typically this is a good kit to keep in the truck to augment the vehicle first aid kit, or to empty it out and customize it for fire line use. There are many products that can easily be purchased on line or locally that will make it an adequate kit for cross cut and chainsaw operations. I would recommend the following items;

Kerlix, 4 to 6 rolls 4.5 inch x 4 yards
Athletic tape, 2 to 4 rolls, 2 and 4 inch width
Coban, Self Adhereant Wrap, 2 rolls
Ace Wrap, 2 rolls, 4 inch
Emergency Blanket (those small, reflective wraps)
Emergency Bandage, 2, 4 inch
Kwik Cold Packs, 2
EMT Shears, 1 4 inch
CPR Face Shield or Mask
Triangular Bandage, Muslin, 2
CAT Tourniquet, 1
Rubber Gloves x 6, various sizes.
Dressings, Gauze, Bandaids, Moleskin, Aspirin, Benadryl, Safety Pins, Duct tape, Sam Splint, Pencil, note pad, etc., as you desire.

Do yourself and your crew a favor and take the time to look at your first aid kits, and make them USEFUL and SPECIFIC to your needs. Once you have a decent kit put together, make sure everyone knows its location and how to properly use the contents. Contact the local ambulance service or hospital and I am sure they can make suggestions on keeping it small and effective for cross cut, chainsaw and fireline operations.

The key is small and light, but effective for the type of operations you are going to need it for. This kit has never been any good and until we get some changes at the national level, they will continue to offer this rather worthless kit.

Good Luck

Aardvark

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Casual Fridays memo, text below:

FROM: Kathleen Merrigan
Deputy Secretary

USDA is a positive and professional organization. Your image as a positive and professional employee is reflected through your dress style. Dressing professionally to present a favorable personal appearance is a reflection of you, and, thus, USDA.

That said, during the summer months, we are promoting “casual Fridays.” Of course, good judgment must be exercised. Avoid wearing shorts, short skirts, crop tops, t-shirts, faded or torn blue jeans, exercise clothes, or flip flops. If there is any doubt, supervisors and employees should communicate openly with one another. This is especially true for questions regarding work clothing or protective equipment required for safety and protective purposes. Employees who are members of a bargaining unit should refer to any applicable collective bargaining agreement(s). And, the right to wear appropriate religious dress will be respected in the implementation of this policy.

If you have any questions about this policy, please contact your servicing Human Resources Department or contact Departmental Administration Director of Human Capital Management, Ms. Jill Crumpacker, at 202-690-5991, or email at Jill.Crumpacker@USDA.gov.

She probably has a Hawaiian shirt she wants to wear. I know I do. Ab.

PackTest1.doc

This is the way the Forest Service does things like hiring.

First of all, most of the upper level fire management jobs are filled by someone who has a friend or someone's friend has a friend who know them. It is unlikely you will get a FMO job if you have not been involved with some fire staff somewhere. It is in my experience of 25+ years working for the Forest Service that its not the best person or the most qualified person for the job that gets hired. It's the person that has the contacts and the friends that will trump any well qualified applicant.

In case you haven't noticed in most Regions the GOOD OLD BOYS club is alive and well..... so make friends, kiss lots of a$s, (etc) and yes you will someday have a shot at an DFMO or FMO position. Just remember... if you are a white male, and over 40 years old, forget moving up in the agency, it is very unlikely anyone will want you and it's even more unlikely that you will have a fair chance in the FS job market.. I only say this from first hand experience. I have seen for the past twenty years, that this is the case with most fire management positions. Yes it is discrimination but try to prove it...... just look at what Region the last three Chiefs have come from.

signed

Stomped On

Dear Ab,

I am a 7 year seasonal with the FS, all as a Hot Shot in Reg. 5. Considering going permanent with the agency.
Was wondering if I could get some insight from the "they said" crowd, on the advantages/ disadvantages of
Demo Slots vs. Career Ladder positions.

• What are the limiting factors for folks wishing to apply to demo positions?
• Once perm. do employees still have options to tranfer RDs, Forests, Crews?
• What incentives and what kind of advanced training (if any) is available to perm. employees?
• Aside from higher salary and tour length, what other advantages are there to going permanent with the agency?
• Are there any guarantees to retention within the agency, forest, RD after going permanent? If so what are they?
• How widely are career perm's appointed to crews out of region? Does this happen?
• How does the process of appointment work?
• Once hired in perm slot, what are the parameters for GS grade advancement? 2 years in grade still to advance?
• What can a perm. employee do to advance training outside of the NIJACK program?

Any answers for this career seasonal GS are appreciated, thanks,

MTR

I hear his quals are good, too. I agree with PYG, it is not about the guy in the job, it is about the complete disregard line
has for the efforts of those who sacrifice everyday, put their lives and their careers on the line everyday, and still continue
to get overlooked for fire leadership positions from the district level to the Washington Office. Being a militia member on
an IMT is not the same experience as dealing with our issues 24/7/365.

CO

Re PYG

I'm pretty sure it is legal (while not common) for a lateral to happen, without advertising the job. Even switching job series if
the person was qualified in that series - particularly if that Unit was in a WRAPS or preWRAPS mode. If the incumbent was
in an 'unfunded' position then lateral into a position they qualified for would be exactly what the WRAPS process envisions.

Jimbo

OC,

I know of a Wildlife Biologist on the Modoc who is T3 IC and Air Attack qualified. I don’t know the particulars,
but it may be worth looking into the details before throwing stones at that one.

h

June 15, 2009 7:00 pm
Smokejumper sustains injuries during proficiency jump

• A Forest Service smokejumper sustained injuries during a proficiency jump (practice jump) on the Gila National Forest this morning.
• The incident occurred at 9:20 am on Monday, June 15, at Farm Flat, a “jump spot” normally used for practice jumps, about 15 miles north of Silver City, NM.
• The smokejumper landed in a tree on the edge of the jump spot. As he was setting up to rappel 20’ to the ground, the parachute, which was being used as an anchor, gave way. The smokejumper then fell to the ground.
• He was initially transported to Gila Regional Medical Center, then later in the day transferred to Thomason General Hospital in El Paso, Texas, for further evaluation of his injuries.

original press release, released only today although dated June 15.

torch

If you are out there, I am so glad you put it in print. I know it will answer a lot of questions
all of us did not know how to ask.

Thanks and good luck with the book,

Arlo

In my mind one of the best wildland firefighters who ever threw dirt at a flame with a shovel, last of a breed
when it came to work integrity, down to earth aggressive firefighting and always standing up for what is right.

You fought your first wildland fire during the summer of 1974 during your Junior year at High-school' cut your
teeth with a Pulaski on the brushfields of Sitton Peak in 1976 and recently finished your shift with distinguished
honor, Congratulations on an amazing career! You will be missed by many on the fireground my friend, but it
was time for you to go, you are an "old soul" when it comes to real firefighting, a huge contrast to much of the
modern day Forest Service's way of doing business! Never despair Mr. Fingers!! You have been responsible
for influencing more young Men and Women of fire and Coworkers than you will ever know! You pointed them
in the right direction, and like the ones who guided you, they won't forget the lessons that you taught them. They
will always strive do what is what is right, and bring it into the future and that is what is really important!

Hang tough Hotshot!

Reality Check

OC

From what I hear the person has good fire qual's but I didn't think it was legal to lateral from another series.
I thought you had to fly the job for it to be even remotely legal. To me it's just another line officer making up
the rules as they go along and not concerned how it will effect the people. Also why didn't anyone grieve the
decision? There had to be someone there they were hoping to move up.

PYG

OC,

Re: the wildlife biologist who was lateralled into the Division Chief position 
on the Modoc.....what quals are they lacking?

OFG

Ken and I just finished the book No Grass by Shawna Legarza. It was a good 
book: it was said sad and funny at the same time. 

Shawna writes about growing up on a ranch, about fire and about her husband.

We are recommending it to all. 

Ken and Kathy

Thanks you two. I added it to the Fire Books page. I can't wait to read that one myself. Thanks for writing it Shawna and thanks for what you (and others) have been inspired to do to help all deal with life challenges. We love you. Ab.

At least the Cleveland and the San Bernardino flew the fire management positions. The 
line officers on the Modoc gave up all pretenses of competition and just lateralled a 
wildlife biologist into a Division Chief position without ever flying the position.

OC

A recent Serious Accident Investigation found that the Type IV Belt first aid kit (NFES 1143) does not meet requirements in Forest Service (FS) Handbook (FSH) 6709.11.22.48a (OSHA Logging Standard 29 CFR 1910.266 Appendix A). NFES 1143 is missing two large gauze pads (at least 8x10 inches.)
The FS has established a specification for this first aid kit, which is available through the General Services Administration (GSA). Upon notice of the accident investigation findings, the specification has been adjusted to include the two gauze pads. However, until GSA depletes its current inventory, first aid kits purchased from GSA may not contain the pads. Any NFES 1143s purchased through GSA must have the contents checked and if the pads are missing, they must be ordered through regular local purchasing processes. We will work with the National Interagency Support Caches to make additions; however, this will not be completed within the current fire season. At a minimum, units conducting chain saw and cross cut operations must supplement these first aid kits as quickly as possible.

Please share this direction with your units to ensure adequate equipping for individuals carrying the NFES 1143 – especially an employee who uses a chainsaw or crosscut saw in the performance of their job.

If you have any questions concerning this, please contact Gary Helmer at ghelmer@fs.fed.us or 703-605-5139; or Larry Sutton at lsutton@fs.fed.us or 208-387-5970.

/s/ Robin L. Thompson (for)
JAMES E. HUBBARD
Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry

cc: Tory Henderson, Larry Sutton, Ralph Dorn

Paratroopers and smoke jumpers line up in the plane one behind the other in a tight line and go out the door like a "Stick".
A "Stick" is all the jumpers that go out the same door on the same pass.

TCJ

AD gal. Perhaps a call is in order? Ab.

I personally believe in physical fitness. Our state agency, though, presently has no physical requirements for fire fighters to fight fire locally. We do however have a contract with the USFS to provide resources. Those firefighters fully meet the standards for whatever position they are sent. Since the federal incidents are usually at least 1000 miles away this policy is a lot easier to keep than the folks in California who have major incidents on various jurisdictions on their door steps. Like us they deal with volatile fuels surrounding WUI. When things are hitting it there is little time to check quals. and perform inspections before engaging resources. The current system of gaining control over resources once the incident develops is, in my opinion, still is the best method. Requiring your VFDs to maintain physical standards, especially in this financial climate, is probably impractical. In our state it would be completely unworkable. In many communities the only reason an engine is able to respond is some 70+ year old firefighter or someone who could never pass a pack test gets it on the road., especially during weekdays.

In closing I believe the job being done in the west, though imperfect, over all is tremendous especially when compared to the magnitude of the problems you face. If a practical way to insure all firefighters are in good physical condition develops I’m all for it. I just believe you’re currently doing the best you can under the circumstances.

MW

[follow-up on Q's post (6/12/09)]

from noname:
Hi All,

I am passing these FedSmith.com articles (attached) on to you, just in case you want to contact your
Congressional Representatives.

Ab found the links here:
www.fedsmith.com/article/2023/want-cut-federal-spending-here-proposals-cut.html ('09)
www.fedsmith.com/article/1178/how-safe-your-federal-benefits-dont-answer.html ('07 article referenced)
proposal (letter to Pres.) referenced in article (266 K pdf file)

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security looks to Cal Poly for help with fire safety.
www.ksby.com/global/story.asp?s=10559751

oldlpf

Hi OldLPF, that one went in the spam filter... Ab.
Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=9006

I suspect the term "stick" in the jumper program originated in the military.
I was a member of the 82nd Airborne Division in the early 70s and the
term was used there and then. Please do not attribute my response.

anon

I can’t take it anymore…

As a chief of a volunteer department, I can understand the concerns that have been raised over not being able to pass the physical exams. I also understand there are requirements in the State of California that all firefighters are held to the same standards, paid or volunteer. It is time for everyone to get on the same page and play the game by the rules. No longer can an individual department make up their own rules. In order to qualify for strike teams, you must meet qualifications. In order to receive grant funding, you must meet qualifications. In short, just meet the standards everyone else is meeting! The program is designed for firefighter safety, not to single out people and make them leave the fire service. Folks need to realize when it is time to retire. This is a young person’s game. All members of a department, especially a volunteer department, need to be able to perform all of the functions on the fireground for safety reasons.

Just my two cents.

Mobilemech1705

Dear Ab and All:

I was a bit surprised that this hadn't made it to TheySaid yet. I think someone is in a bit of denial over her failure at LEADING. She's "sad." Gosh, sorry. Well I guess that's better than being totally demoralized by said "leadership" (or lack thereof) as much of her employee base is. I know this isn't supposed to be about the "who", but it seems very clear that she just doesn't get it that this was more than just the Administration that wanted a change. Hopefully Mr. Tidwell will learn from this.

FEDWATCHER II

Note from Forest Service Chief Kimbell:

A number of you have asked for some accounting of all this sudden change. Let it suffice to say that the Administration wanted a change. It is sudden. I'll serve as your Chief through July 2, then will move to a new position and will retire in early August.

The good news for me is two-fold. To have my successor already announced and to know that it is Tom Tidwell, a tenured and seasoned Forest Service leader is tremendous news. Tom and I will have some time for transition before he assumes the responsibilities of Chief. The second piece of good news is that I get to rejoin my husband in Missoula, Montana.

It has been my distinct honor to serve as the 16th Chief of the U.S. Forest Service. I've had the pleasure to work with incredible people at all levels, in all job series, all across the country, who are highly skilled and dedicated to our mission to sustain the health, diversity and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands. Together we have focused on many of the important issues and conservation challenges of our time. I thank you for the outstanding work in climate change, water and kids.

Am I sad? Of course. I cherish my 35+ years in the Forest Service and the relationships with people inside and outside the outfit. But I know you'll continue to keep an eye to the issues of the future and you'll continue in our 104 year history of adapting to the needs of present and future generations. You are an extraordinary group of people. I would do it all over again.

Gail

Heli-guy,

6/16/2009

Go to the NWCG Medical website at: www.nwcg.gov/teams/shwt/iemtg/index.html

There isn't a lot of information there, and as far as being a fireline EMT, apparently all you need is EMT
Certification and basic wildland fire quals (FFT2) with a valid red card.

The committees are moving at a glacial pace, so it may be some time before there is any specific direction.

Aardvark

This is compelling and explains why we have gotten all the cues from cooperators across agencies in
the past year. The R5 chief does not have our trust.

(CAL FIRE Chiefs were instructed not to write or talk about this topic but its of great concern to the
CA public as well as to FF. No wonder FS morale is low; this kind of thing tends to permeate an org.)

Thanks for the summary and links, Not a Conspiracy Theorist.

Ab, if this wasnt so serious you could sign me: "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out
to get us."

But you'd better sign me: A very concerned socal non-fed FF and taxpayer.

I'm adding the Redesign post to the Docs worth Reading Archive. Ab.

To put some facts into the debate.

This has nothing to do with big brother coming in to take over the fire department, it has everything to do with the law.

The physical that they are referring to is the Respiratory Protection Program for breathing apparatus. The San Diego County Fire Authority is under contract with CAL-FIRE to provide fire protection which means that all personnel need to follow CAL-FIRE policies and procedures. The policy is an annual fit test for SCBA use and based on certain factors a yearly or otherwise determined physical including a treadmill test are required. Any person working for or under control of CAL-FIRE that has a requirement to wear a breathing apparatus goes through this annually. We fill out a questionnaire and based on our answers determine if we are fit for duty to be fit tested or have a physical. This is based on industry standards for the use of SCBAs. We have been doing it for many years, and while yes it displaces some volunteers, it is also a free wake up call. We have had people that had underlying problems that didn’t know until this physical. They sure were happy to find out something was wrong and could be treated. Additionally, this is a baseline exam for these folks to fall back on if something were to go awry. If in one year, their hearing is fine and then in subsequent years, they begin to have a deficit, this would be covered under Workers Comp as it has been documented over the years.

They may also be required to perform a physical abilities test, but I would bet it's not as difficult as the pack test.

JT2

IRGirl

This came in yesterday at noon. I don't know if word on the new chief is out to employees yet, probably is. We often get info early . Thank goodness all were OK on that crash. I put the pics on the Equipment 14 photo page. Ab.

Thanks David, nice rig. I put it on the Engines 24 photo page. Ab.

Ab,

Gotta throw my 2 cents in and thank Knuckle Dragon and MF. I was on the hill from the initiation of the prescribed fire through transition to IMT management. There are lessons to be learned (many have become elements of policy). But to armchair QB the decisions made on the ground is hard to stomach.

I have spoken to anyone who will listen since the foundations stopped smoking, and I consider it an obligation to my brothers and sisters in the business to continue to do so, hoping to help avoid a command performance of May 2000.

I will gladly share what I know with any person or group. I have always maintained that I would make the same decision today if I were up on Cerro Grande Peak with the information we had in hand that day. Our plan was sound and had support all the way up to the R.O.

Gleason was a great firefighter, leader and mentor, but an even better human being. I think of him every time I lace up my boots.

sign me- GAFiredog, Cerro Grande Veteran

There was a little dancing, celebrating "smiley" at the end but it doesn't translate to this forum. Ab.

Tom was the Deputy RF in R-5 and was my boss for a short time. He once told me I should consider staying
in cheaper hotels even though I was within per diem.. I’m sure you know my response. Overall, pretty
conservative. I just hope he understands it’s the people that make or break the organization, not the title..

Q

www.fs.fed.us/fire/doctrine/genesis_and_evolution/source_materials/2003-socal_safety_protocol_review.pdf

Other Ref:
State and Private Forestry Redesign: www.fs.fed.us/spf/redesign/redesign-timeline.pdf
www.fs.fed.us/r5/newslog/january2006/focus/drf-tidwell.html

I support the idea of fit firefighters. In fact let's see more physical fitness and much safer eating habits, maybe I could quit chewing tobacco... I am however reminded of how a dentist (who allowed himself to be referred to as" Doctor") was allowed to develop Federal Firefighter Physical Standards. These top of the line "off the shelf" standards of "leading" fire service and other organizations including NFPA were used to determine our fitness as firefighters. By the way did you know the NFPA Physical Standards were blasted by the Justice Department for failing to base their standards on actual firefighters, it was made up BS. (Didn't know that did ya?) This cost qualified firefighters and their families a bundle in unnecessary retirements, minor surgeries to correct "problems", lost hazard, overtime, again agency morale and included attorney fees. It cost our agencies time and legal fees. And ignored a basic first step. A baseline physical to determine the actual functioning state of the firefighter.

The actual baseline would show that as firefighters age they may incur hearing loss, less eyesight acuity, soreness, bad knees, less function in limbs and, still be able "to perform the essential duties of said firefighter". So again, a standard based on firefighters successfully performing the essential duties of the task is what is most important, rather than a made up study of what we think a firefighter should look like. And frankly, this was not done in the Federal system, nor for the San Diego County Volunteers.

Take for example my case, I was essentially blinded in one eye, retired and eventually was successful in the courts when I brought firefighters from LA City, Long Beach, Alhambra, South Pasadena, and my own department into court who were "similarly situated". Of course we won. Then when the federal standards came about, again court, and we established precedent that affected Federal Firefighters and undoubtedly helped the seven firefighters in our agency in our region of the country who are again "similarly situated". As incidentally, were historically firefighters of the Cleveland NF, Park Service, San Diego, and Pontiac, Michigan all fighting for our opportunity to remain as firefighters with this challenge. Last year I responded to over my 500 th response with no effect to myself or other firefighters. Soooo....the issue is larger than just this complaint.

I suspect what we want is a true determination of our abilities. A graduated physical standard (we do this with Type I and Type II ICs not being Arduous, as well as other positions) based on the position we function in. And need I say that other major fire departments do this.

As to San Diego County and other counties across the land, a little grandfathering and alot of compassion may achieve both the needs of remote local communities and the bureaucracies that underestimate the little guy. I wonder, should we become concerned when policy is determined by those who lack a world view? Women are disproportionately victims in fire fatalities. Should we limit women? No. More firefighters have died in the Pack Test than in structure protection. Should we abolish the Pack Test? Should we abolish Structure protection? (Sorry couldn't resist) And if we count aviation and wildland fire deaths. Should we abolish organized wildland fire suppression and aviation? Probably not. So if you will, let's remember the firefighter with the shriveled hands, one arm, color blindness, poor hearing, one good eye, one leg who were and, are good valuable firefighters. And what did you eat tonight ...was it "medically" considered healthy?

Popeye ;)

Dear Ab and all:

Make no mistake, your voices do make a difference !

With the very quick announcement by Secretary Vilsack of a replacement (Tom Tidwell) coupled with the recent "Best Places to Work" survey results and no doubt the press and political pressure for the last two or so years, I would presume there was some external pressure on the Chief.

It might be easy for the initial sentiment of many Forest Service firefighters to be "see ya." Clearly Chief Kimbell's disdain (I really don't think that is too harsh a word to use) for her firefighters, especially those in the West and those who work to improve things for those firefighters is no secret.

However frequent changes in Agency leadership, whether it through a change in Administration or other actions is not necessarily a healthy solution to a problem and my comments are based on my experience and career having had the opportunity and honor to serve 25 years in the fire service from a firefighter through all the ranks, culminating as an Asst. Chief of Operations.

Personally I'm more irritated than anything that someone being afforded the rare honor, opportunity and duty to lead the Forest Service or any other such Agency, would squander such an opportunity to correct so many problems; fail to make any attempt to improve things for his/her employees in a segment of the Agency's employment population that risks their lives so often in battling wildfires then bag out of town when the going gets tough. True leaders are hard to find. They are especially hard to find within the federal government bureaucracy where positions are acquired for an infinite variety of reasons.

Some true leaders, when they eventually end up in Washington, lose all semblance of leadership and are pre-occupied with self-preservation. Chief Kimbell had every opportunity to do incredibly good things for her firefighters. Congress, despite our objections, gave her even more time than we felt necessary to identify and correct long-standing problems.

Instead, the threat of regressing the Forest Service fire program to what it may have been 30 or 40 years ago and stifling the voices of those seeking change became the objective.

I am reminded constantly of Chief Kimbell's video to her Agency's employees shortly after the Esperanza tragedy in which she stated that "challenging business as usual was a virtue." However she made it very clear as did many line officers that actually following through on that virtue, especially by firefighters had consequences.

The Forest Service fire program, in my personal opinion, is devoid of leadership primarily as a result of Chief Kimbell's disdain for fire. It is my sincerest hope that among other objectives, the USDA will suggest to incoming Chief Tidwell to listen to his firefighters and work with them to make the Agency's fire program the place to make a wildland firefighting career while providing a more effective and efficient response to the American taxpayer.

I remain humbled and honored to have the opportunity to harness so many of your voices and direct them towards those who can, and ultimately will make positive changes for all of you. In the meantime the FWFSA will extend the same courtesy to Chief Tidwell as we did Chief Kimbell when she arrived and seek time to meet with him on firefighter issues. It will then be up to him to demonstrate his leadership and understanding of the absolute necessity in creating a progressive fire program for the 21st century.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Hello Ab,

Just a note for they said. I hope all is well.

Pyrogeographer and Mellie,

The cost of fuels treatment is effected by slope, fuel density, location, and the marketability of the material. In some instances the cost may vary because some trees may have to be climbed in order to remove safely. By in large the bulk of material removed for mitigating the effects of fire are the ladder fuels, as you know. Most fuels treatments can be accomplished, in my experience, at cost of $500-$1000 per acre with equipment and slightly higher for hand thinning.

The disparity in treated acreage is not because of expense but rather politics. It is much easier for land mangers to thin a few hundred acres in a remote watershed than areas closer to urban areas. Due in large part to the fact that many people oppose the removal of vegetation in areas where they live and play. Reference a case earlier this spring in Salt Lake City ( http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6082819) where fuels treatments were started and abruptly halted because of public outcry. It is hard enough accomplishing meaningful fuels treatments in areas with multiple agencies, the difficulty increases by an order of magnitude when private holdings are integrated. Areas that are high hazard and contain denser populations are for the most part privately held. It takes a community approach not government intervention to be successful.

Quite frankly, it is not the government's responsibility to save communities from poor development decisions. Government should establish standards and provide oversight like municipalities do with building codes. As it stands now, wildland fire codes are decades behind urban fire codes. The public's willingness to do the things required to make their communities safer can be described as a sin wave that rises and falls relative to the length of time between fire events. Obviously there are more pointed questions that need to be answered such as: the role of government, the mission of the USFS as an agency, what responsibilities communities and developers have, and how best to approach the problem? Until these questions are answered I think it unlikely we will see any real improvement in the safety of the WUI.

Jenks

Info here: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=40229

Recently, Engine Crew Leader types (Captains, Module Leaders, Foreman, whatever) in Region One had our positions reviewed for the possibility of an upgrade to the GS-8 classification of other regions. Regional fire leadership concluded that we are not eligible for the upgrades. As you can imagine, in a period of downward spiraling morale, this was a major blow for district folks, especially considering the upgrades that our national resources are enjoying. We are still trying to get through the logic in the decision process, but the damage has been done.

Tough situation, guess we don't accomplish the same quality of work that folks across geographic boundaries do, nor national resources. Kind of interesting that many Forest FMOs up here were against supporting their own folks.... It's nice to feel appreciated.

R1 Engine Boss

I was talking with some folks about the 206/216 morale rating for the Forest Service.
Because of all that has been leading up to this, one sometimes has to look at the comical side of this serious issue.
We came up with a possible WFF fundraiser similar to the "Black Tuesday" wrist band fundraiser for the FWFSA.

How about a contest for a good slogan T-shirt/bumper sticker in regards to the 206 rating to even send the
message deeper. For example:

The best slogan would be used and the sales of the shirts can be donated to WFF. If anything, it would be interesting
just to see what people come up with. Maybe FWFSA would want to take this on....

DirtMiner

Ab,

After reading the North County times article I feel the need to comment. One of the Chief officers
in the article stated he did not need to be as fit as new firefighters. I call BS.

In rural areas, when responding to structure fires, the chief officers typically accounts for one of the
mandatory personnel for the IRIC positions. That chief must be in full PPE and be ready to go in after
a downed FF.

If that Chief can't lift 50lbs maybe its time to give it up!! At that point you are a liability to department
and taxpayers. If you can't pick up 50lbs, walk 3 miles than I assume that your heart can't take the
stress of a major incident.

How about leading by example? How can chief officers preach fitness and health to younger firefighters
while sitting there eating a bowl of ice cream? I think it is detestable to have leaders of fire departments
use the excuse of "I stand outside the fire, so I can be fat, and eat fast food." What a drain on the health
care industry and taxpayers. If people, chief officers included, would take an active role in the health and
fitness maybe we would have less fatalities due to hypertension and myocardial infractions!!!!

I think the VFDs and their chief officers should be held to the same standard as the rest of us!

On that note, I'm going for a run!!!!!!

Fit and Healthy FF

If you google "Tom Tidwell" USFS Chief you'll find lots of articles from lots of different areas where he's worked, all centering around yesterday's USFS press release. He's worked in many places, most recently with Kimbell. Many report that he's good at bringing people together to resolve thorny issues and work things out. For example, in R1 he worked with the roadless folks and got good marks. My experience with him when he was R5 Deputy Director of Forestry was that he was reserved in the beginning (at least with R5 fire people), but loosened up a bit with time. He did not strike me as a political glad hander, but as an observer upon first meeting. I did not have any interaction where he was involved in working things out. Ab.

Marty:

Fascinating paper on Dodge’s Escape Fire. There are Vertical Wind Tunnels available that simulate
skydiving and related body lifting which may have useful data on what it takes to lift a person and
whether it “feels” like you were lifted even if you did not actually get off the ground.

Old Sawyer

I am guessing this is pack test related?

Volunteer firefighters may not sign contracts with the county
Longtime volunteers balk at physical exam requirement

www.northcountytimes.com/articles/2009/06/17/news/sandiego/z55a5c5aaf7a0e472882575d8006f3e11.txt

Mark

Hi Pyrogeographer

Perhaps another thing that figures into this is the money going from the federal government into "Small Fire" or the Firesafe Council grants. I think they are awarded locally here in CA through CalFire. www.firesafecouncil.org/ and a google search of Firesafe Council. Does anyone know more?

Without controlling for the money that goes to interface communities for veg mgmt via other locally empowering routes, I think the study is incomplete.

Firewise Communities: www.firewise.org/ is another collection of local communities across the country that prepare for fire on the interface. I don't know where they get money.

Firewise Communities is part of the National Wildland/Urban Interface Fire Program, which is directed and sponsored by the Wildland/Urban Interface Working Team (WUIWT) of the National Wildfire Coordinating Group, a consortium of wildland fire organizations and federal agencies responsible for wildland fire management in the United States.

Dennis Orbis in R5 used to be the "Small Fire" money guru. I don't know if he reads here or would tell us about the grant process, but he used to report at the BOD meetings. Very Nice Man, big heart! I hope he's having a good time in retirement.

Mellie

Hi all,

In regards to the recent post about this new paper that the media have used to blast agencies
for not completing more treatments in the WUI, it was interesting to me that the authors chose
to use Area Treated as their primary metric. I'm just a nobody scientist, but my impression
has always been that lower amounts of area are treated in the WUI because it is so expensive,
and if we broke it out by NUMBER of treatments, or DOLLARS spent, work in the WUI
would far outweight non-WUI treatments.

Would those doing fuels work on the ground comment on this? If my impression is wrong, I will
happily have learned, but if it is right, it seems a rebutal study is in order to address the dollars
and cents metrics.

Thanks in advance for your opinions,

The Pyrogeographer

Interesting stuff, even if your mathematics of the modeling is mostly beyond me. I'd often wondered about the
accuracy or interpretation of the accounts from so long ago as 1949. Thanks for that.

It's amazing to me that Wag Dodge survived without visible burns and implies others might too if in a similar
situation. In recent years the question of how big a zone -- whether safety or survival -- has been a persistent
one  in this high risk profession. It was good to have an example of one that worked for one person. I'm glad
you included the info on whether all his guys might have survived in a burned out space that large.

Another thing I have wondered about is Dodge's comment that he was almost lifted off the ground three times.
And with that I've wondered if his lungs were burned even if his skin was not. Are there any accounts that he
had difficulty breathing or lung congestion or any effects of burned lungs, 2-3 days later? Are there any other
lessons to be learned from this in that regard -- that you can "look OK" following an ordeal like his but still be at
risk for serious respiratory complications, and what size "zone" might protect you from lung damage due to the
heated air? It would be good to know if Wag's burned out area was adequate for lung protection too?  How much
does a wetted handkerchief and face in the dirt help?

I know any answers would involve speculation and go beyond the scope of your paper, but I'm curious what
you think, and always questioning.

Mellie

Does anyone know where to find a tabulation of National Planning Levels by days?
I know last year there was a spreadsheet that came out when PL5 hit early that had
the last 5 years together.

JD

If anyone would like to discuss the Cerro Grande fire, and hear some facts, please give me a call. I was the USFS DFMO on the adjacent district.

Reality Check: Send the note you just sent me to "They said" in reference to the standing of the USFS. Very well stated.

Left Hook: Right on response to "Bill' on his inquiry of leadership. Carky and Ken: 35 years ago today, the 3 of us started with CDF. What a ride. To my friend Dale: Any fire, I'd pick you to be with me. Visited with retired CDF Ranger E. Donohue just before leaving, He was one of the best firefighters in the history of California. I still say, and I know Dale will agree, that Grandma Joseph and Dale's Mom could do a heck of a lot better job than most running a fire program. Dale, you're the best firefighting AFMO in the forest service. Jordy boy, you're the toughest Hotshot thet ever lived. Thanks to Craig Herret, Drogo, Achison, Mike Smith, Gabbert, Rich and Scott, I learned from all of you guys and more.

See ya Later,
Magruder Fingers (Retired)

Hah, you kept your retirement a secret from those reading here so maybe you wouldn't be harassed too much??? Happy retirement! Ab.

Mr.abercrombie, I have 1 question. After today after all these years, are we finally are starting to get through to our leadership? I really commend mr. casey for everything hey has provided for our voices. He is our soundboard from the field and continually serves in that capacity for us as firefighters! From the los padres, I really hope now everyone on our forest is supporting our concerns/rights as been communicated. For the ranks from the field, Always remember like smokey once said! Be careful!

Centralized fire now!!!!!!

JJS
Sent from my iPhone

To now second guess what happened at Cerro Grande 9 years ago is a bit out of line. Sure, there are lessons
to be learned but you need to be aware that you only know part of the entire story about who did what and
when and, most importantly, why.

Careers were ruined over that event while (IMHO) the real perpetrators of the organizational problem that
led to that event not only went scot free they ended up with big promotions and learned nothing about the fact
that underlying organizational failure was the root cause. Many of them are still amongst us.

Be sensitive to the fact that many of us true firefighters who were either directly or indirectly involved in that
event have serious regrets about it but were not individually responsible for the catastrophic falling of dominoes
that occurred and ensued for years after. And the dominoes are still in place.....

Paul Gleason was a great firefighter and a great friend. He was only trying to help out and assume true leadership
where it was sorely needed. God rest his soul.

KnuckleDragon

What I noticed was they brought fire all the way down to the road on the west flank leaving continuous fuel
downwind to the east. It ran across the flats with the wind!

If they stayed up on the hill the fire would of been influenced by the slope and terrain to draw up the center
of the burn. Up the drainage to the slop-over and where the helitorch worked.

I think starting fire where it took off was the mistake that broke the camel's back. Too much fuel downwind,
plus the wind has a direct line at it. Should of burned from east to west to finish the bottom; and make sure the
interior flashy fuel burned. Where's that Helitorch!
---------------------
The original investigation talked about a double-black line. I've never heard of one, but I assume they use a
bunch of fuel to burn flashy fuel next to the control line and did two swaths leaving a dirty burn. They were
having trouble getting it to carry.

Lessons Learned has a Cerro Grande PDF I haven't seen yet. I'm curious if it mentions this!

William Riggles

C'mon now ....REALLY???

The Tidwell announcement is coming in from many people. Ab.

Photos: Tidwell 1 (on a Friday) and Tidwell 2 (Washington attire)

No name please

I, for one, wish her the best in retirement. Ab.

WASHINGTON, June 17, 2009 - Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack today announced that Tom Tidwell will serve as the new Chief for the U.S. Forest Service.

"Tom Tidwell's 32 years of experience in our forests and impressive track record of collaboration and problem-solving will help us tackle the great challenges ahead," said Vilsack.

Tidwell has spent 32 years with the Forest Service in a variety of positions. He began his Forest Service career on the Boise National Forest, and has since worked in eight different national forests, across three regions. He has worked at all levels of the agency in a variety of positions, including District Ranger, Forest Supervisor, and Legislative Affairs Specialist in the Washington Office.

Tidwell's field experience includes working from the rural areas of Nevada and Idaho all the way to the urban forests in California and the Wasatch-Cache National Forest in Utah, where he served as Forest Supervisor during the 2002 Winter Olympics. He also has extensive fire experience, beginning as a firefighter, and accumulating nineteen years as an agency administrator responsible for fire suppression decisions.

"We thank Gail Kimbell for her leadership and deep commitment to protecting our nation's forests," Vilsack added.

USDA FS News Release

Did anyone besides me notice that the "test burn" done for the cerro grande rx did not take place
under the conditions they were going to burn under? (6/14 post)

A test burn should be done on the same or a similar conditions to the ones you're going to be
burning under, including the same slope, aspect time of day unless the conditions are wind and then
you shouldn't be burning....

Look at where the "test" fire was set and look at where the rx was set. People we have to do
better than this.

Strider

Dear Ab:

I'd like to share the attached paper with your readership. This paper was presented at the recent
IAWF Wildland Fire Safety held in Phoenix, AZ during the last week in April. Comments etc are
of course welcome.

Regards,

Marty Alexander

Alexander, Ackerman and Baxter (2009). Dodge Escape Fire Analysis.pdf (4422 K pdf file)

I look forward to reading it. Ab.

LL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Region Five Emergency Communication Centers
A Need for Modernization and Improvement

Background:

During the February Regional Leadership Team meeting, it was identified that there is a critical need to modernize and improve the operational efficiency of Emergency Communication Centers (ECC) throughout the Region. Given that ECCs are critical to the safety of employees in the field and to the effectiveness of the agency’s emergency management, the RLT considers resolution of this issue to be a significant priority.

A decision was made to form a steering committee led by representatives from fire and law enforcement that would develop an action plan to modernize ECC operations as necessary to meet current and future needs. This would be presented at the June RLT as a short term and long term action plan.

The steering committee was formed with a member from Fire Management, Law Enforcement, Information Technology, Emergency Communication Center and the Regional Leadership Team/Line. Two Action Plans were developed for decisions and are as follows:

Short Term Action Plan:

To develop and implement a mission statement that will be utilized by all Region 5 ECCs. This mission statement will immediately set the tone and expectations of the RLT. In turn, this will help to reduce friction and inconsistencies and ensure vital communication to all field-going personnel. This should immediately improve safety for our employees.

Proposed Mission Statement:

The principal mission of the Pacific Southwest Region Emergency Command Centers (ECC) is to serve as the vital communication connection for all field-going personnel as they perform the agency’s mission. ECCs provides efficient communication; support for “all-risk” incidents; and is the critical link to ensure the safety of all personnel.

Proposed Action/Decision: The Regional Forester would send a letter to the field implementing this mission statement along with his expectations to ensure the safety of all field going personnel.

Long Term Action Plan:

To develop contract specifications to provide a range of alternatives and cost comparisons for Region 5 Emergency Communication Centers (ECC’S) which promote efficiency in staffing and certainty for field employee’s safety.

Region Five Emergency Communication Centers
A Need for Modernization and Improvement

This contract would be developed incorporating input from field personnel and established committees. Analysis items have been developed that are not all inclusive. These would be further defined prior to the implementation of the contract.

Some analysis items include:

With current technology, would it be possible and economically feasible to consolidate the 17 ECC’s and 2 Geographic Coordination Centers (GACC’s) into a smaller number of centers and still maintain unit specific communications. Some considerations:

• At the Province scale: 5 plus 2 GACC’s
• One Super ECC for entire Region
• One Super-center for Region 5 Law Enforcement organization
• Additional configuration of ECC’s to meet Region 5 needs.
• Determine what, if any, loss of services if consolidation of ECC’s were to take place.
• Given current Standard Module Configuration (SMC), what would the staffing need to be to adequately provide ECC services for all employees on a 24/7 schedule

An additional needs assessments would also need to be accomplished, for example: Priority calls, alternative net for LEI, incident number increases and funding sources.

Proposed Action/Decision Items: Move forward towards implementation of a contract. Additionally, the steering committee would remain intact to:

1. Assist in reviewing the contract;
   If the contract is implemented, the steering committee would provide the informational conduit from contract personnel to the field.

I'm putting the file HERE for future reference.  Ab.

Abs
This came up in Science Daily. Lots of very interesting things also linked on the page

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090608182433.htm

Fire Mitigation Work In Western US Misplaced, Says New Study

ScienceDaily (June 15, 2009) — Only 11 percent of wildfire mitigation efforts undertaken as a result of a
long-term federal fuels-reduction program to cut down catastrophic wildfire risk to communities have been
undertaken near people's homes or offices in the past five years, says a new study led by the University of
Colorado at Boulder.

Linker

Ab:

Several years ago we had a temporary manager come into the nursery. He was part of the management team
on the forest. He says to me, "Brian, I don't sense any leadership here at the nursery." I looked him in the eye
and said, "Bill, I don't see any leadership in the Forest Service." He walked away.

Sincerely: Left Hook

On Engines 24 photo page. Ab.

Heliguy,

Check out FIRESCOPE document at www.firescope.org/ics-pos-manuals-fireline-emergency.htm

Document under ICS Downloads ICS 223-10. Line EMT is a great position that is often UTF, but
CalChiefs complained years ago that people being sent to incidents were not meeting some of the
requirements as in Arduous, PPEs. and proper EMT packs, etc. Several companies now make a
dedicated EMT pack. Google and you will find several available, but it will probably mean some
investment$.

Good luck
OTHXIC

LL

Because no clear line has been drawn between airtanker base operations safety and the organization identified in the IABOG we have asked the Washington Office to perform a national Systems Safety Analysis of airtanker base operations. Our hope is that the analysis will help us better identify the kind of oversight and management required to ensure safe retardant loading and related airtanker operations.

Until that analysis is completed, and in view of the guidance found in the IABOG, I am directing that every airtanker base on which Forest Service personnel and/or aircraft operate will have a qualified Air Tanker Base Manager (ATBM) assigned to manage it. Predicated on the airtanker base configuration and unique characteristics the assigned ATBM will determine the qualifications of the second person identified in the IABOG, and have this person on scene prior to any airtanker loading operation. The type of qualifications may include Parking Tender, Ramp Manager, etc. Neither of these personnel need be Forest Service, but must be qualified in accordance with Forest Service policy. I need you to ensure that bases under your authority meet these requirements.

On a second issue, I believe there is a need to review and, if needed, to revise the 2006 Airtanker Base Efficiency Analysis (ABEA). While I believe the data and analysis are acceptable, I want to be more inclusive of stakeholders and cooperators in the development of the answer. Further, I believe there is a need to consider CalFire assets and mission in the analysis. I have directed that this be accomplished in time for a 2010 implementation. In the interim, we will implement the ABEA as it is written, and management responsibility for existing full-service and reload bases will remain with the host Forests. These are:

Finally, just as with airtankers themselves, reload base activation is not a local unit or Incident Management Team prerogative. Activation of reload bases is the responsibility of the appropriate Geographical Area Coordination Center (GACC). When necessary, the GACC will activate the base through the host forest.

Please share this information with your staff, cooperators, incoming IMTs and others that have a need to know. Regardless of the issues on the table, let’s ensure our intent to protect our employees from harm while being as effective and efficient as we can with these costly assets forms the centerpiece for our actions. I rely on you to provide the appropriate oversight to see that it happens as we intend.

/s/ Beth G. Pendleton (for)
RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester

cc: pdl r5 fam
Ed Hollenshead
Willie R Thompson
Dennis Hulbert
Joe Millar
Ralph Domanski
Pat Norbury

The following H1N1 Pandemic Flu Status Update put out by Michelle Reugebrink, R5 Safety Officer
is circulating behind the scenes. Ab.

I was just wondering what kind of additional training and certification a line emt on fires would
need and how does someone go about becoming one. Ive seen alot of municipal FF's doing this
position but is there any other way of becoming one? Any info would be appreciated.

Heliguy
Sent from my iPhone

I'll post this on the hotlist too. There are some emt threads there. Ab

Casey;

Just a little personal note here, to thank you for everything you're doing for the community at large,
and specifically, for my first love, the Big Green. One of my real regrets is that I eventually tired of
bangin' my head on the wall, and left. Shouldn't have.

We all know that we typically avoid growing beyond our personal comfort level. And we all know
that it's about bloomin' time that the FS face realities, and grow beyond my era with them... the '
70's and '80's.

(Sorry, just found myself standing on my soap box. Hang on...)

Back on track: if we'd had an FWFSA, and you to represent us, I'd have stuck it out, and would
now be looking toward eventual retirement.

Not to minimize the efforts of the NFFE, or Mark Davis (simply don't know you guys); the necessary
changes have, and will continue to be, a result of dedication and combined effort. Everyone must
speak as one voice.

Just a little personal "THANK YOU, CASEY", for all that you do for my adopted family.

Pyro

Hear, Hear! Ab.

Very one sided and biased.

RogueDrogue

For those ADs (especially BLM sponsored ADs) that have been on a fire assignment this season, how
long did it take you to receive your per diem checks?

Just seems like it is taking longer this season than in past ones. I've been waiting over 5 weeks and nothing
yet.

Thanks

AD gal

I never saw that one, so it's not posted here. Ab.

Ab,

This has to be a quick report – my daughter’s getting married this weekend and I’m going to walk away from the long hours for awhile. I’m sorry I haven’t had the time to report back on what’s been happening – it’s happening faster than I can keep up.

But I wanted to say a quick word about our collaboration with FWFSA. I finally had the honor to meet Casey in person in March when NFFE FSC President Ron Thatcher and I were in DC for his testimony on factors affected employee morale. At this time and over the phone we worked to coordinate our message to make sure we were speaking with one voice on key issues for maximum effectiveness on the Hill. Our brief dealing with wildland firefighter issues is posted at www.nffe-fsc.org/committees/legislative/. Those familiar with the FWFSA discussion draft will notice major similarities. This is not by accident. Three of the four issues we decided to prioritize were coordinated with the FWFSA draft based on our discussions with Casey. The four issues were:

• Stopping the clear and present danger of one-size-fits-all use of GS-0401 for fire management positions and properly classifying firefighters and fire managers
• Implementing an ordered standby (24-pay) pay system for firefighting personnel in closed camps – thus establishing pay equity AND improved administrative control and safety
• Protecting safety witness statements to create a true no-fault environment in which candid disclosures and discussions can lead to improved safety
• Stopping temporary hiring abuse, in which employees are re-hired for years and even decades without pension, health care, or other benefits, and allowed those who have been exploited to buy back their time

Nineteen union members carried this message to the Hill the week of May 11. Then, in the few weeks since our return, administration actions that we had been pushing for years both happened within weeks. Then, last week, I was back to DC again. I met with key Congressional staff, an OPM Deputy Chief of Staff, and the Deputy Undersecretary Jay Jensen and several of his staff. This follow-up visit was specifically to push for administrative reform (getting more support back to the field), classification reform, and protecting safety witness statements. Not because the other issues are any less important, but because timing is important in politics and the door was temporarily open for these.

I will try to follow up with specifics as time allows. But there’s still work to do to follow up on these two visits to DC. And the fact that the dice haven’t stopped spinning yet. And there’s my daughter’s wedding. And the fact I just plain need a vacation. I’ll post when I can. The summary: we’ve made some progress, identified some obstacles, and there’s still a ton of work to do. The ship of state don’t turn on a dime – especially when it’s guppies like us pushing on it. But God bless the US of A – where at least we got a shot.

But before signing off I want to say again how much I appreciate the efforts of Casey and FWFSA. We have slightly different constituencies and slightly different approaches, but we are working for pretty much the same outcome: a better working environment and a better agency. What he does makes my work easier. What I do helps him advance his cause. We’re in this fight together. And we’ll keep at it. In particular, I’ll be reaching out to see how we can work together to move the major issues that are currently stuck on the Hill forward.

Please send any comments to nffe@fs.fed.us. Even if you post them here too, I'm less likely to miss them if they're cc'd there.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Thanks, Mark. Everyone working together will get 'er done! Have a great wedding event! We had one of those a week ago. Fun! Ab.

Ab-
Could you post this for me please?
Thanks-
K

So last week I was up at the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest's Type
3, 4, and 5 Incident Commander Meeting doing my presentation about
snag awareness & in said presentation I mention the tools I've made
for various crews & how I can make more if so requested. (see one
here: http://crew13.com/lassen/)

Well, afterward I was talking to some of the guys out in the
parking-lot & Jeff Dimke of Entiat Hotshots handed me his 'pocna. It
was *Heavy*. I checked it out & he'd welded about 5 pounds of steel
plate to it. "I want 20 of these. I just don't have the time to make
'em." he said. "I can do that, just get me the shovels" was the
answer.
So now I'm still traveling doing the presentation thing, but Fedex has
dropped 20 shovels off at my house. (I hope in such a place that I can
get in the door...) So when I get back I'm going to make them into
Heavy pocnas & send 'em back.

I know you guys want tools- and I also know you don't have the time to
make 'em.
Well guess what. I have the time and the ability. So want something
like a heavy 'pocna or some kind of new & higher-speed something? Get
ahold of me, describe what you want or even better send me a demo
model & if I can make it get me the donor tools & I'll get the job
done.

How much do I want? Tell you what. I'll make the tools & when I return
the finished items I'll include an invoice for my materials & it will
state how much time I spent. You fill in what you think that time is
worth & give the whole thing to your check-writer. You see here's the
thing: I know you're not going to gyp me & I don't want some crew
saying "We'd love some sweet tools, but we cannot afford them with
current cutbacks & the budget & whatever". So if you're low on funds,
give what you can. If you're not, well give what you can as well.
Maybe we can trade a few pieces of toy-hose or something for part of
the bill. I'm fairly easy.

So now's your chance to get those tools made you want but just haven't
the time. I have the summer off school & I'm itching for a few worthy
projects.

--
Krstofer Evans

http://krstofer.org & http://crew13.com

Good idea Krs. Ab.

Thanks for your contributions here and behind the scenes, Lobotomy. Good research. Great helping. Ab.

Ab.

Found this on the Lessons Learned site in Feb. Have you seen it? I don't see it now, but that could be me.

PS in the context of the FS solicitation of fire resources maybe this has always been the plan...

Todd

The Changing Composition of Firefighting Resources ppt (766 K ppt file)

Thanks, Eric, I put it on the Engines 24 photo page. Ab.

Thanks, muchas gracias, Claudio. La foto está aquí. :  Helicopters 27. Ab.

Here are some cool photo's I shot in 2007 at the Pend O'reille dam fire near Trail, BC, Canada.

Aaron Herrick
Williams Lake, BC

Have A Good Day.

Thanks, Aaron. I put them on Helicopters 27 photo page. Ab.

Thanks for your work and persistence, Casey. It matters. Ab.

From JW, the Lassen NF E-14 logo on Logos 16. Thanks, Jason.

Also a fire start photo of the 146 Fire, from a house on Pariaso Vinyards, west of Soledad CA. Thanks Matt. Fires that begin on private lands can spread to public. I put it on Fires 40 photo page. Ab.

Air tanker drops in wildfires are often just for show
http://tv.trb.com/news/nationworld/la-me-wildfires29-2008jul29,0,2608972.story

Please let me know if you use this and how to access it.

Scott

In response to Mikef's questions on the Biscuit Fire, I had a few
suggestions on where and who to ask for further information on the fire
behavior during the blow-up day of July 28. That day was one when "all
the stars were in alignment" for a truly explosive fire behavior event.
I cannot recall how many IMTs and fire management Zones were active on
that day, but the two major divisions of the Biscuit Fire were the east
and west areas separated by the Kalmiopsis Wilderness Area. The west
side of the fire was heavily influenced by the marine influences of the
Pacific Ocean, and by the corresponding vegetative response. The
majority of the fire's growth that day was within the Wilderness and
generally located in the drier east side.

The public record for the Biscuit Fire is vast and I understand
digitally available. One of the first guides I would look and ask for
(from the Rogue River - Siskiyou National Forest) would be the Fire
Danger Pocket Cards for the various zones or areas of the fire for that
day. I'm sure the indicators are off the chart in terms of percentile
and averages for that day of the year.

One could also search the various Incident Action Plans (IAPs) for those
impressive fire growth days and identify the fire behavior analyst
and contact him/her for further questions before, during and after the
blow-up days. There are many eyewitnesses for those events but I'm not
sure how beneficial their accounts would be. Pictures tell another part
of the story and have been saved by the Forest.

I have since retired from the Forest Service, but remain active as a
Public Information Officer, so I suggest that you start by contacting
the Forest PAO for further information and access to the public records.

Hope this helps,
Lasagna

Thanks Lasagna. Ab.

I am thinking Tony may be easy to contact as he has a T-2 team in the Southwest. In fact if I am not mistaken,
 it is Glens old team that was the first T-2 team in that effort.

I can tell you one quick story from that day. I can remember the ATGS requesting retardant to help keep the
fire from possibly hurting some civilians that had found a way into Babyfoot Lake. He requested the load of
mud with a Priority 1 request and was told there were 2 other priority requests in ahead of him. This was
eminent threat to life.

That was a very interesting day.

Bob

Thanks, Mike. Ab.

Hot suspect in Old Fire
09:58 PM PDT on Friday, June 12, 2009
By PAUL LAROCCO
The Press-Enterprise

Special Section: Wildfires

A suspect in the catastrophic Old Fire has been behind bars on unrelated felonies almost as long
as the flames have been out.

Now, after nearly six years, prosecutors are close to deciding whether that man will face charges
in the blaze, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The San Bernardino County district attorney's office is reviewing a murder and arson case against
Rickie Lee Fowler, 27, a convicted burglar, the sources said.

They requested anonymity because they are not authorized to speak about the pending case.

much more including a photo of the accused
www.pe.com/reports/wildfires/stories/PE_News_Local_S_fire13.42f289f.html

CL

From ht posted on the Hotlist:

Monster in the Woods: www.redorbit.com/news/science/177024/monster_in_the_woods_the_biscuit_fire/index.html 

As I understand it, the original is also posted in a volume of Fire Management Today. ht posted a link but not the right volume of the publication. Check back in case he finds it. Ab.

A report by a Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center Information Collection Team

www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Initial_Impressions_NorCal_2008_Lightning_Siege.pdf

The LLC is an awesome source of info, facts, data, peer review, and lessons learned.

Original Fedwatcher and contributor

Ab,

We had several crews that were the first crews who IA the Biscuit Fire. If MikeF wants some first hand accounts I could hook him up with our crew bosses. We also had a helicopter in the early days.The pilot who is now retired would be more than happy to give some accounts. There was also a infrared company who was doing some experimental infrared work with NASA infrared technology that may have some interesting pictures of some of the blow ups during the first 30 days. He can call me at 541-4xx-xxxx

Hope all is well

Mike Wheelock

That would be great, Mike, many thanks! I forwarded your email with contact info.

Also, in a post yesterday Bob suggested Tony Sciacca (who was OSC then). Anyone have his contact info?
Anyone have contact info for the fire staff on the RRF/SIF for info or for the Biscuit chronology? [Fire started on the Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest near (or in?) the Kalmiopsis Wilderness www.fs.fed.us/r6/rogue-siskiyou/.] 
Perhaps firefighters from the Oregon Department of Forestry (ODF) would be another good group to contact. Anyone reading here?
Shari Downhill's Northwest Timber Fallers? 
Lasagna, if you're reading do you have any ideas? You were dialed in with everyone there in those days. Was Randy Herrin (sp?), another FBAN, anyhow involved with watching that fire behavior? I know many of you have retired, but the good stuff stays with you.
Others? Call or email your friends. Email me please with ideas or contact info. There's only 3 degrees of separation among wildland firefighters, ya know!

Who would likely have the "Monster in the Woods" article?

Here's the photo page on the Biscuit to jog people's memories: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/biscuit/biscuit.htm
Info page: www.wildlandfire.com/descr/descr_firename.htm#bisc

If you want to read mikef's original email research request and view the links he provided, click HERE to skip down. Ab.

Firehorse still reads "Theysaid" everyday. Had nothing to do with Biscuit though.

Firehorse.

Haw, Haw, old Original, glad you're still out there. I thought you sent in some of the pics of the town hall meetings and might'a seen something. Ab.

Officials Close in on 2003 "Old Fire" Suspect
Updated 1:15 PM PDT, Sat, Jun 13, 2009

More than five years after the Old Fire destroyed a thousand homes and contributed to six deaths, prosecutors are reviewing a murder and arson case against a 27-year-old prison inmate, it was reported today.

The San Bernardino County district attorney's office is close to deciding whether Rick Lee Fowler will face charges in the catastrophe, according to the Press-Enterprise of Riverside, which cited multiple unnamed sources with knowledge of the investigation.

``I gave them what they wanted to hear . . . but it's time to clear some things up,'' Fowler wrote in a one-page letter dated April 13 from Salinas Valley State Prison to the Press-Enterprise, the newspaper reported.

Fowler was referring to his contact with investigators of the Old Fire, the Press-Enterprise reported. In his letter, he encouraged further questions from reporters but did not respond to subsequent correspondence.

The October 2003 Old Fire destroyed 1,003 homes in the city of San Bernardino and in mountain communities that are a second home to many residents of Los Angeles, Orange and San Diego counties.

The Old Fire also burned more than 90,000 acres over nine days and caused $45 million in damage, the Press-Enterprise reported.

All six Old Fire deaths were heart attacks or induced by the stress of fighting or fleeing wind-driven flames. Santa Ana winds and on-shore winds from the opposite direction produced firestorm conditions several times during the Old Fire. Authorities immediately focused on a possible arson suspect or suspects in a white van spotted at the point of origin on Oct. 25, 2003.

In the aftermath of the disaster, prosecutors said they were confident they could prove an arsonist or arsonists committed murder even though no one had burned to death, the Press-Enterprise reported.

Fowler has not been charged with anything related to the Old Fire. But the new look by high-ranking district attorney's officials is the closest to a conclusion the case has come since it was first presented four years ago, the Press-Enterprise reported.

(The rest is at the link: white van found in LA, man who was suspect has since died, Fowler was passenger, incriminated himself, etc...)

Ab,

I am thinking there might be two pieces of history that might shed some light on the Fire Behavior
on July 28. The Forest had put together a chronology of the fire. The second piece that might also share
some insight is an article called " A monster in the Woods". These may be available somewhere. Having
been there the first 10 Days to 2 weeks it kinda blended together.

Another thought Tony Sciacca was the OSC when this was all happening. Tony may have some more
intel to help.

Thanks Bob

Anyone have contact info for Tony or for the fire staff on the RRF/SIF? Fire started on the Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest near (or in) the Kalmiopsis Wilderness. Ab.

Hello,

I am a meteorologist at the Naval Research Lab in Washington DC,
doing research on pyroconvection. One of our cases is the Florence/Biscuit
fire. We saw a fascinating burst of pyroconvection from space on 28 July 2002,
the same day as some photos on your web site.

I'm writing to ask if I can be put in touch with anyone who observed/took pictures
of the Biscuit fire in the late afternoon hours of 28 July. In particular it would be
my aim to learn as much about the photos and eyewitness accounts to reconcile
with the space views.

In a nutshell, what we saw on 28 July was pretty unique in the life of this particular
fire. Although it burned for weeks, and was very active on many days, a particularly
deep pyrocumulus cloud formed on that date, and shot material high into the troposphere.
Here is a visible and infrared sequence from GOES satellite of the "pyrobubble."
http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/projects/pyrocu/29jul02/visloop.asp
http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/projects/pyrocu/29jul02/ch4loop.asp

Even though the fire was going strong all day long, most of the smoke was transported
at relatively low altitudes out to sea. But a few puffs of deep pyroconvection exhausted
material that zipped on jet stream winds eastward. We'd love to understand what the
folks on the ground might have to offer in terms of descriptions of fire-behavior change
that afternoon.

Any information or contacts you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
If you'd like any more information from me, feel free to ask.

All the best,
mikef

Readers, I contacted Mike to see if posting would be OK.
All you Oregon firefighters that were there on July 28, 2002. Drop me an email and I'll put you in touch with Mike. Very interesting. I think this is a worthy project. Nothing like firefighter eyes observing fire behavior from the ground.

Firehorse, you still reading here?
If anyone knows of anyone involved in Biscuit IA, please let me know as well. Maybe your departments could send out this inquiry via email.
Thanks, Ab.

I had hoped to meet him when I had the honor of being at the Descanso District recently with Congressman Filner and a good number of firefighters including the Forest FMO. However the new Deputy was not present. I did have the opportunity to meet and speak candidly with the Forest Supervisor Mr. Metz. I was going to pose the question of the selection and cost effectiveness of it to Mr. Metz in front of Mr. Filner but the congressman indicated he would seek an answer through direct correspondence with the Forest Supervisor.

I would have to concur that good quality FIRE folks on the Cleveland were passed over and obviously the question of whether the cost, not only in financial terms but in terms of morale (recent congressional testimony and survey results), to move someone in from Mississippi seems a wee bit strange. R-5 can be a wee bit overwhelming...

Re: Chief Dietrich's successor on the San Bernardino

I also had the honor of attending Chief Dietrich's retirement party in Mentone. Previous to that I had sent a "greetings" letter to the new BDF FMO Kurt Winchester (of course along with an FWFSA brochure) but had not received a reply by the time of the party. Mr. Winchester was also in attendance but we did not chat.

There were also those at the party who had been "passed over" in the selection process by Forest Supervisor Jean Wade-Evans. Given the complexities of the BDF, in my humble (but doesn't count) opinion, selecting a District Ranger who's been on that Forest only for a short time over people who have that Forest and its fire history ingrained in their brain, seems also to be a bit strange. Of course not too many can fill Chief Dietrich's boots and only time will tell.

Morale Issue:

The FWFSA has once again (emphasis added) written to Chief Kimbell of the Forest Service seeking an opportunity to meet with her on firefighter issues in the wake of the congressional hearings in March and the survey results. Her letter states she will "seek ways to engage employees further and address the concerns that are represented in the survey results." I suggested that meeting with the FWFSA and opening a dialogue with us as the Ag Secretary has done as well as the Deputy Undersecretary would be a good first step.

Firefighter Classification:

We are crafting communications with the FIRE leadership of BLM, NPS, F & W and the BIA in an attempt to meet with them in Boise in the near future. There are contradictory comments floating around about the direction DOI agencies are headed regarding the 401 series since the Forest Service has made an about-face on the series and has officially mentioned a firefighter series. Personally it makes no sense for the USDA to go in one direction while DOI goes in another. DOI Secretary Salazar is familiar with our testimony on firefighter classification and we will keep his office abreast of our efforts. We do know that leadership of BLM has leaned towards the development of a wildland firefighter series but apparently NPS trumped them...which seems confusing to me (I apparently get confused a lot in this job) since many NPS firefighters are 0081 series firefighters and NPS has a structure program. More to follow.

Not sure what Mr. Hollenshead's comments on the Klamath meant but we'll find out. I do know that if the Agency takes steps to downgrade captains from GS-8 to GS-7 based upon a 5 day effective staffing as compared to a 7 day effective staffing as a result of poor FIRE management/the inability to retain firefighters etc., it will be met with a vigorous fight.

I'm disappointed that the FERS sick leave buy back amendment in the Senate bill passed yesterday was removed before passage. It is still in the House version of the same bill. The excuse by one member of the Senate that the amendment was not "germane" to the bill is a common argument...however so too are bills chocked full of stuff that is not germane to the main framework of the bill. And ya gotta wonder how these people run the government !!...

The FWFSA has been communicating at length with NFFE over our legislative proposal and I am hopeful they will report their support for many of the provisions soon. I do know the four main elements are also very important to them: 1) classification 2) PTP 3) firefighter liability and 4) buying back of temporary time.

We've lost some great folks to retirement this year so please stay safe out there.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE FOR INFORMATION:
June 11, 2009
Dan Adcock (703) 838-xxxx

NARFE Deplores Plan to Cut Earned Federal Civilian Retirement Annuities

National Active and Retired Federal Employees Association (NARFE) President Margaret L. Baptiste denounced proposals made by House Republican leaders to reduce the retirement annuities of federal workers and require them to work longer to receive their full earned annuity.

The proposals, set forth in a policy agenda released on June 4 by Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) and Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-VA), recommend that the federal civilian annuity calculation be based on the highest five years of salary instead of the highest three years. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that “the average new Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) retiree would receive about $1,250 less in 2008 and $6,530 less over five years than under current law.”

In addition, the Boehner/Cantor paper recommends that federal civilian employees not be afforded their earned annuity until they reach age 62, under any circumstance. Currently, employees can retire at age 55 if they have 30 or more years of service or at age 60 if they have 20 or more years of service. Federal public safety employees are required to retire by age 57, and air traffic controllers must retire by age 56.

“Not only would these proposals dishonor the government’s obligations to its workers, but it also makes public service a much harder sell to the highly talented and skilled individuals needed to take on the challenges of recovering from an unparalleled economic upheaval, fighting two wars and defending the homeland,” Baptiste said. “The federal government should serve as a model to other employers and should not be a part of the mindless race to the bottom, which has contributed to the growing number of employees without adequate retirement savings or health insurance.”

Baptiste concluded, “Federal workers and annuitants have dedicated their careers and continue to give so much for our nation and our ideals. NARFE urges the Congress not to demean their public service by reducing the retirement and health benefits that are rightfully theirs.”

If the FS chief truly desires to improve the morale of the agency, she will Immediately tenure her resignation along with Mr.Kashdan as they are two very key players in the poor conditions at what was once a great agency to work for. Her pathetic little pep talk memo is typical of the mentality of the present "Management" at the Forest Service: blame the problems on everything EXCEPT the LACK OF LEADERSHIP in the agency. I firmly believe that every single one of them need to quit using the term "Leadership" when they are actually speaking about the agency "Management". There is a vast difference in the two and they certainly do not demonstrate any "Leadership" whatsoever.

There are some people that have demonstrated their leadership in the past and are now hiding it, people like Harbour were once damn fine leaders, where are they now? There has not been a Forest Service Chief worth their salt since Jack Ward Thomas, and the present one is the worst in the history of the agency and that is tough to do following Dombeck.

T-d off hit the nail on the head, problem is that "Management" does not listen to the employees, "Leaders" do! As the old saying goes "Lead, follow or get out of the way" it is time for the agency's top "Management to do the last as they sure aren't doing the other two.

Happy to be retired

LEO

In my humble opinion, I believe this letter is a little late.. Q

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/Letter_from_Chief061209.pdf  (72 K pdf file)

COMT

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/09/AR2009060903294_pf.html

"Mark Davis, the union's legislative chairman, blamed the low morale on "the general erosion
of the ability of the employees to do the work they were hired to do." He cited "a particular
loss of faith in the leadership of the agency."

That's borne out by the Best Places to Work report, published by the Partnership for Public Service and American
University's Institute for the Study of Public Policy Implementation. Based on surveys last year of federal workers,
the report ranks the Forest Service 206 out of 216 agencies.

Though the service can't get much worse than that, it managed to rank a pitiful 209 in the category that measures the
level of respect employees have for senior leaders and staff perceptions about senior leaders' honesty, integrity and
ability to motivate employees."

Agreement set for to bring firefighting airplane to Lake Elsinore - PE.com - Daily News Digest
 

The Washington Post had an article (6/10) about the USFS - Best Places to Work rankings.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/09/AR2009060903294.html

KC747

http://data.bestplacestowork.org/bptw/detail/AG11

The Best Places to Work rankings — the most comprehensive
and authoritative rating of employee satisfaction and commitment
in the federal government.

CS

FERS Sick Leave Amendment Left Out of Final Legislation in the Senate

Not only does the FEDS program give updated Federal information, they have a passion for
working with and helping the Federal Wildland technician. Summer is here again and if you
have not updated your plans, not is a good time.

Glad to be a member

Professional Liability Insurance is a MUST.
FEDS is the best in my opinion. Comparison to other companies. Ab.

JP Harris, LA County Fire Department
Mentoring and Teamwork

Mellie

The NWCG Leadership Committee has released its first annual newsletter. Any
exposure you can give to this publication on "They Said" would be
appreciated.

The URL is www.fireleadership.gov/newsletter/newsletter.htm and a
pdf version is attached. All students of fire are encouraged to print,
post, and share with others.

To subscribe or unsubscribe to Leading & Learning, send an e-mail to
leadership_feedback@nifc.blm.gov including “Subscribe” or “Unsubscribe”
from Leadership Newsletter in the subject line.

Regards
Pam McDonald
NWCG Leadership Committee, Logistics Coordinator

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/LeadingLearning_Spring09.pdf (271K pdf file)

fireweed lurker

Thanks for keeping their memories alive. Ab.

Now a HotShot Crew. These guys worked hard and got it. Great job!!!!

ATT

Nice job! Ab.

Ab,

Just got to reading and looking at some of the posts on helicopters at Rose Valley in '79. I know when the 212 night ship was there one of the pilots was Gary Markowski. The post on 529 says it was a 205 with Jim Ramage. I don't remember if that was after the LACO incident. But Gary flew Rose Valley, Chantry, and some at Chuchupate for Reeder Air out of Twin Falls,ID. They had two 212's with LA tanks, and a 206B here in CA on contract. I know Gary was still flying there in 82-83 and maybe a year later as I had him dropping on me on some of KRN's fires next to LP. He, the last I heard was, was flying corporate helo and jets back East.

Just a memory jogger for me, but somewhere, I even have pictures!

Diffsteer

Three Rivers Crew: Stanislaus County, CA. Three Rivers Fire Crew, 1995. Sent in by Paul Howard, Monterey Airport FD - ret. (0609)

Leesville Hotshot Crew, Lake Napa County CA: Sent in by Paul Howard, Monterey Airport FD - ret. (0609)

Our state really likes the program, with out it I doubt we would be able afford an air program at all.

WE

Thanks Other Owner Names!!!

Needed to get some "my" facts straight BUT that is sure is some GREAT info laid out there!!!!!!

LL

Rhys, here are the photos you sent. Thanks. I put them on Airtankers 30 photo page. Ab.

Here are some Airtanker pictures I took during the 2007 fire season in Alberta.
All the pictures are taken at the High Level Airtanker Base.

-Rhys Walmsley

Ab, Last year one of the posters asked about the S-55-t in the late 70’s. I was a crew member at Heaps Peak in 1978, this was the first year that they were used at Heaps Peak. The ships were provided by Globe Air from Arizona. One was #34 and the other was #36 and we had two helishot crews along with the helitack personnel. In October of 1978 the ships were grounded due to budget funding and the crew members were reassigned to Lookout Towers, Prevention and I think Trail crews.

Firemen7

Thanks, I put them on the Helicopters 27 photo page. Amazing how nice you can make faded old photos in Photoshop. Ab.

Ownership of aircraft in the FEPP program is a little tricky. The aircraft are released by DOD to the USFS where they are distributed. Below are the FAA registrations of some of our aircraft and you can see that USFS is still listed as the owner while we, CDF operate them.

one more thing,

Our copter pilots are employees of the agency. The fixed wing pilots are contractors.


N494DF super huey...

N494DF is Assigned

Aircraft Description

Serial Number 11303 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name BELL Certificate Issue Date 12/05/1991
Model EH-1X Status Valid
Type Aircraft Rotorcraft Type Engine Turbo-Shaft
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51417505
MFR Year None Fractional Owner NO

Registered Owner

Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES

Here is another, now an ov-10 air attack...
Aircraft Description

Serial Number 305128M68 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name NORTH AMERICAN Certificate Issue Date 03/10/1993
Model OV-10A Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Turbo-Prop
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51130251
MFR Year None Fractional Owner NO

Registered Owner

Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES

Here is Tanker 83, you can see we are listed as the "other owner" on the bottom

Tanker 83....

Aircraft Description

Serial Number 152820 Type Registration Government
Manufacturer Name MARSH AVIATION Certificate Issue Date 08/30/2001
Model S-2F3AT Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Turbo-Prop
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51205314
MFR Year 1966 Fractional Owner NO

Registered Owner

Name USDA FOREST SERVICE FEPP
Street 5500 PRICE AVE
City MCCLELLAN State CALIFORNIA Zip Code 95652-2421
County SACRAMENTO
Country UNITED STATES

Airworthiness

Engine Manufacturer AIRESEARCH Classification Restricted
Engine Model TPE331 SERIES Category Forest

A/W Date 03/28/2003

This is the most current Airworthiness Certificate data, however, it may not reflect the current aircraft configuration. For that information, see the aircraft record. A copy can be obtained at http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp

Here's one example by serial number: http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=407DF&cmndfind.x=0&cmndfind.y=0

Other Owner Names

If the FS outsourced fire (277 K pdf file) would it still get the bucks but avoid all or most liability?

Ab, isn't this shuffling of RISK what happened with the ATs? Keep giving the contract to the
lowest bidder then fail to provide for the wives and families of those that perished, deny upgraded
technology, etc in the mix? Let those costs be borne by the private sector with a pressure to not
provide it since it's lowest bidder, like with the timber fallers now that are trying to manage RISK
to their folks?

Does anyone have a link to that good letter 2003? by Walt to the AT Blue Ribbon Panel? He laid
out the industry's risk and safety factors pretty well.

NorCal Tom

I don't see a centralized fire organization. I don't think the Forest Service wants to share its "income stream".

FC-180, Nice term INCOME STREAM.

Fire provides the Income Stream, the USFS uses it and will never let it go. Congress will never find them having
financial accountability until the org is centralized...

roadrunner

More splitting of hairs.......

CALFIRE aircraft and pilots contracted by DynCorp for pilots and MX

Further safe to say Beech E-90's are contracted/ supplied by Dynamic Aviation unless proved other wise

Further safe to say DC10 contracted to CALFIRE by Tanker10, LLC

"Ownership" and mileage may vary...

LL

"In 1996, CAL FIRE acquired 26 S-2E/G planes from the Department
of Defense. CAL FIRE converted the planes to a fire fighting
configuration and fitted them with modern, powerful turboprop
engines. The completely reconditioned S-2Ts are faster, safer, more
maneuverable, and carry a larger retardant payload than the
S-2A airtankers CAL FIRE had used since the 1970s. The final
three S-2Ts were completed and delivered in 2005. CAL FIRE has
23 S-2T airtankers. One is permanently stationed at the Sacramento
Aviation Management Unit facility for maintenance relief."

CAL FIRE owns and operates the tanker fleet and 11 super hueys and 14 OV-10 Air Attack
ships (we don't believe in lead planes) from 13 air bases and 9 helitack bases, that CAL FIRE
operates. And as far as MAFFS, I'm pretty sure the 70's was more than a few years ago. Thats
how long the National Guard has had MAFFS.

To smokeybehr

I don't see the consolidation including CHP, they are not a general fund department and I'm sure
they don't want to share their income stream.

FC180

Readers, FC180, please keep replies in "relaxed mode". The truculence is unnecessary. The 70s seem like just a few years ago to me too. Cumbayah. Ab.

Ira

If I recall correctly that was the mid 1990s bill that got the NTSB investigating all non-military plane crashes, including airtankers... You must be thinking of another Bill that prohibits the Federal Government from competing in business with private companies. Ab.

From the Hotlist

Let me quickly clear up some misconceptions:

#1: Cal EMA is now an agency, which is a cabinet-level position, and not under the Governor's direct purview. This makes the Agency's budgetary position far stronger, as the Governor can't just move money out at his whim.

#2; The original version of AB54 was to immediately move CalFIRE, OSFM, State Board of Fire Services, CHP, OTS, CCC, and EMSA all under the Cal EMA umbrella. The current version sets up a "working group" to prepare for the transition to happen in 2012.

<opinion below>
I can see this as a good idea, as it consolidates all of the Public Safety agencies under a single umbrella and food chain. As I've said before, when it happens, nothing is really going to change, except in the top couple of layers of the food chain. Directors, Deputy Directors and Commissioners are all going to do the shuffle, either retiring or filling into positions in the new regime.

It gets CCC, CalFIRE, OSFM, and SBFS out from under the Resources Agency; CHP and OTS out of DOT; and EMSA out of HHS. It'll make disaster planning easier, as everyone will be under the same roof (almost literally), and you won't have each agency drawing up their own plans for everything, with minimal consideration for the complimentary agencies.

Smokeybehr

Hope this helps.

Yogi

If you think you're a friend of SoCal Abby B [no wanna be's (heh heh)], send me an email I can forward! Ab.

Obama pick to oversee forests withdraws

WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration's pick to be the new
agriculture undersecretary in charge of the U.S. Forest Service
has withdrawn his nomination, a White House spokesman says.

* Read the full article at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_id_obama_forestry.html

Church services will be at 11 am

A reception will be held at 12:30 at the
KCFFU Hall at
3615 Mt. Vernon Avenue
Bakersfield, CA 93306

Dress for the service will be the work uniform or civilian attire.

Map and Directions to Parkside Church. (Formerly University Baptist Church)

DDD

Ab et al,

Perhaps as some relief from the debate on your own wildfire issues and opportunities, you might find
interesting the progress of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Victoria ’s ( Australia ) disastrous
bushfires this last Feb ’09. The huge loss of many structures, animals and forest but of course a tragic
deaths of so many caught by the maelstrom that over took them on “Black Saturday”.

Widely expected that a lot of blood will be spilt on the Commission floors before this is all over. The
many big issues under examination will include the “Stay and Defend” policy and the issues around
whether the Public received adequate warnings of the situation that was developing.

An informative day by day summary at:

www.news.com.au/heraldsun/indepth/section/0,,5019015,00.html

For the very dedicated, a live feed during Commission sittings at:

http://vbrc.net.au/live1/# (consider the time difference, eg PDT is approx 19 hours behind Victorian time)

Alan
New Zealand

Thanks, Alan, I'll be following that. Posted your email on the "Australia's Tragic Firestorm" Hotlist thread as well. Ab.

This has been in the works for some time and would place Cal Fire, OES and
several other agencies all on the same level all reporting to a secretary who
reports to the Governor of California.. Good chance of this happening.. Q

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Emailing: CDFF President's Briefing, California Firefighters.htm Resources Agency abolished???

(I found it here: www.cdf-firefighters.org/cdffirefighters.aspx)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CDF Firefighters:

Brothers and Sisters:

The budget action at the Capitol is fast, furious and in the estimation of many, not unlike a shooting gallery where every moving target is endangered. The situation changes by the hour. The Capitol building is clogged with interest groups and ordinary citizens trying to block the proposed deep cuts to once inviolable programs. There are hundreds of folks in wheelchairs trying to block elimination of the state’s welfare safety net. In-home healthcare and schools are on the chopping block. Thousands of prisoners are being set free. We have a proposed 5% across-the-board pay cut for all state employees. There is talk of changing investing requirements for new employees from 20 to 25 years to become eligible for post-retirement health benefits.

Late last week we received word that the Budget Conference Committee took action to abolish the Resource Agency. As you know, CAL FIRE is under the Resource Agency. It is led by Director Mike Chrisman. This is further complicated by the Senate proposal to meld CAL FIRE into CalEMA (Emergency Management Agency), which is a newly created agency under which the Department of Homeland Security and OES were combined.

We have our legislative committee in Sacramento looking closely at the fluid and constantly changing situation. We are accepting the guidance of our political director, Aaron Read, and our public policy director, Terry McHale, as we negotiate these high seas.

The news of the abolishment of the Resource Agency is stunning. It was not anticipated. In fact, it is the result of fighting between the Legislature and the Governor. It is difficult to tell if it will have legs. We do know there will be hearings next week. What that change means to CDF Firefighters is unclear at this point. However, we are actively engaged in the discussions. As I write this message, we have been in the Capitol looking at all the angles. Simply put, as the situation evolves and matures, we’ll provide information to you. The pace at which things are changing right now is breathtaking. Please note the Sacramento CDF Firefighters team is on point and focused as we deal with the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.

Stay Proud, Stay Strong, Stay Union

Bob Wolf, President

Fair use disclaimer

This was released into the contracting world last week, It is VERY interesting and certainly
isn't being talked about.. yet... I would appreciate it if it was NOT attributed to me.

You asked "what does it mean? Why interesting?"
If you think of it.. Use retired people under a contractor..

No issues of availability - it is the contractor's job to worry

No issues of local government pay - it is the contractor's job to worry

No issues of AD pay rates - it is the contractor's job to worry

No issues of hard targets not being met at home - it is a contractors doing the job, the USFS 
folks can stay at home

No issues of portal to portal pay - it is the contractor's job to worry

Test the water with this and then expand to engines, crews, ??

G

Solicitation offer and award: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/Solicitation_AG-024B-S-09-9001_5-21-09.pdf (277 K pdf file)

That will teach me for making a comment in haste, in my irrational emotional state.
First time I've heard the term, I'll go back into my cave now.

Reality check

"R-5 was upset because the IHCs were nationally funded resources and therefore supposed to
be available nationwide. The concern seemed to be "If all of our IHCs are somewhere else
(Montana, Oregon, etc.) on fires what highly trained crews do we have in region to fight the
ones we have here"? So, region 5 was allowed to create "regional" hotshot crews with a few
stipulations."

In actuality, the additional Type 1 crews had been modeled in NFMAS for years, by numerous Forests,
but we never got the funding for them. Back then we were funded at about 60% of our most effective
level (MEL) as identified in NFMAS. We got the new crews, when we finally got funding to bring us
up to our MEL.

TC

"As far as safety, and lessons learned, simple... for gosh sakes post a long range lookout for yourself, or
listen to one (cannot see the main fire) or just disengage and go to your safety zones, either when the two
Hotshot crews do or when that Old Hotshot Superintendent with 34 years of fire experience
recommended it over Tac to everyone to both divisions long before the burnover occurred. Or maybe
just go over your eighteen situations (frequent spot fires) that shout watchout, fire orders, and make
your LCES bomb proof. Let me see that took me two minutes.. not two years.... oh and we already
knew about retention, this is simply proof."

Lobotomy

Reality Check:

"PS: Up to PARR is not an ICS term, until it is... Cal-fire, don't use it or any other of your "in house"
terms with other agencies on fires, It takes the C out of LCES"

I need to clear the air on the PAR issue. I was the OSC who asked for the two PAR checks when things starting going south on the Angora fire. It was not my intention to cause confusion, but to rapidly get every supervisor thinking "accountability, where are my people? Do I know where they are and what they are doing?" First of all, don't blame CalFire, I am not a CalFire employee - that is one of a myriad of inaccuracies in the report, secondly, check the 2007 version of ICS-420-1, Field Operations Guide. "...The content of the Field Operations Guide (FOG) is intended to provide guidance for the application of the Incident Command System (ICS) to any planned or unplanned event..." On page 22-8 of the Glossary of Terms are two entries you should review:

Personnel Accountability. The ability to account for the location and status of personnel.
Personnel Accountability Reports (PAR). Periodic reports verifying the status of responders assigned to an incident.

That being said, hindsight is perfect and had I known the issue it would cause by asking for a "PAR" I would have used even more clear text. The Branch Director (USFS) knew what it meant - the breakdown in understanding the term occurred some level(s) below that. If you were there, then you know how jammed the radio channels were at that time and every second on the radio counted. I was attempting to get everyone to tighten up as rapidly as possible by using an ICS term that is used VERY frequently (like every 10 minutes) on other types of incidents managed under ICS. I hope the term is used more frequently by all agencies practicing ICS because it is a very rapid method to remind supervisors to account for their folks. Until it becomes more common I will include its definition during my briefings. However, to say it is some cultural jargon between agencies is false, it is an ICS term.

OpsGeek

I added it to the Acronyms page. Ab.

Congratulations!!!!!

lunamama

Nice. Ab.

Wow,

Just read the Angora APAR, Two years after the incident , Two years? , does that not send up a red flag to inquiring minds? South Canyon took forty five days.

Seemed like one of the main points was the FS retention issue as being a finding in the entrapment, good job on that, well you hit that one on the button, imagine that, hitting the button long after the retention study was complete. Why didn't this report hit the shelf until now? Was that the reason? The report itself was sketchy to say the least. I witnessed the whole thing as it went down, many areas were vague, inaccurate, maps were wrong, and missing key points that we all could have learned valuable lessons from. Aside from Petrelli, whom I trust, and a maybe few arbitrary conclusions from one or more of the arm chair quarter backs.. Who are these people? Line officers, public affairs specialists, food unit leaders? Why don't you thrown in a Pop Warner football coach and a Denny's restaurant Manager for even more quality insight and depth of fire diversity. I'm going to read this again maybe I was in a bad mood during the first read , or being too critical.

Bottom line was some of the night shift gave inaccurate information about completing the burn, leaving the day shift with a plate of Crap to deal with in the morning. ...make your choice ...Either burn out as much of the fuel in the green horseshoe on Tahoe Mt. while conditions allow, in line with predicted conditions. or let it run on its own, you decide,

As far as safety, and lessons learned, simple... for gosh sakes post a long range lookout for yourself, or listen to one (cannot see the main fire) or just disengage and go to your safety zones, either when the two Hotshot crews do or when that Old Hotshot Superintendent with 34 years of fire experience recommended it over Tac to everyone to both divisions long before the burnover occurred. Or maybe just go over your eighteen situations (frequent spot fires) that shout watchout, fire orders, and make your LCES bomb proof. Let me see that took me two minutes.. not two years.... oh and we already knew about retention, this is simply proof.

PS: Up to PARR is not an ICS term, until it is... Cal-fire, don't use it or any other of your "in house" terms with other agencies on fires, It takes the C out of LCES.

Be safe this season and stick to the basics,
Reality check

Hi, I'm an Air Tanker Base supervisor in Alberta and I'm wondering how the Air Tanker program
is done in the U.S. Does it differ state to state? Are the air tankers privately owned or are they
government? Are air tanker base personnel (i.e. supervisors, loadermen) civilian or military?

Thanks for your time!

-Rhys Walmsley

Oh and also did you get the Air Tanker picture I sent to you in May?

Hi Rhys, I'll check later this week. Ab.

negative creep needs to get some facts straight.

a - all funding comes out of the same pot.

b- training standards are the same between the two types of crews.

c-when the crews were started after the 2000 fire season because of the lack of resources
where did most of the overhead come from........IHC crews?

kp

Creep,

R-5 does not have RHCs. R-5 has IHCs and Type II IA Crews. The Type II IA Crews wake
up every morning and continue to work towards meeting IHC requirements and status. However
we (R-5) do not simply put the IHC label on our crews and hope others will listen. This recognition
is shown on this nationally managed website (not a region-5 web site) listing all IHCs. Annually
since 2002 R-5 has been adding crews to the IHC list as they meet ALL IHC standards.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_index.html

It's time to stop counting the OT hours and start recognizing how lucky we're for the strength our of
Forest Service Firefighting Force. We need to put our energy towards protecting this strength from
Line Officer Creep (reductions) and start/continue supporting one another.

Signed,

What a concept

Direction came from the White House a few years ago that all agencies involved in emergency management would use the ICS , part of which requires the use common terminology such Engine Captain as opposed to SFEO, etc. In R-5 this was easily carried to collar brass, hard hat color, vehicle identification. As far as call signs, R-5 adapted that engines be labeled E-xx or say E-13 which may well be one of say 16 engines on a forest. Dispatch calls up that engine by calling for say Angeles Engine 13 or Cleveland Engine 25. This is the same kind of system L.A County and other fire departments use. It results in effective track of who is sending what from where.

I’m forwarding this to the Regional Fire Safety Officer who may be able to get you some up to date documentation. Understand this about call signs for the fire side or emergency side of the agency. It moved over to other functions and worked well.

As far as somebody using their last name as a call sign, they need to put away their ego hat and put on their safety hat. How many people have the same last name. There are some small towns in R-3 where they may well all have the same last name. Suppose they are mobilized to another region or different part of the region. If they want to work for the agency they follow the rules… This kind of stuff is not negotiable!..

Q

I've perused they said for a long time but this is the first time I've posted.

Regarding the region 5 "IHCs". I understand that region 5 does not differentiate between IHCs and RHCs anymore (at least the dispatch centers dont), but isn't there a fundamental difference as far as training level of qualification, of overhead, etc.? Here is my (probably flawed) understanding of the situation in a nutshell. R-5 was home to several Interagency Hotshot Crews. R-5 was upset because the IHCs were nationally funded resources and therefore supposed to be available nationwide. The concern seemed to be "If all of our IHCs are somewhere else (Montana, Oregon, etc.) on fires what highly trained crews do we have in region to fight the ones we have here"? So, region 5 was allowed to create "regional" hotshot crews with a few stipulations. One being that RHCs were type one while in R-5 only because they didn't meet the National IHC SOP for qualifications. When RHCs were called out of region on assignments they were to notify the fire command staff upon reporting that even though it said Hotshot Crew on the side of their buggy's they were in fact, not. More often than not, this didn't happen and it boiled down to an ethical question that still hasn't been resolved. Why is that? More and more, regional hotshot crews are being are being sent out of region, while nationally funded IHCs sit. It breaks down like this; region 5 has to pay for it's RHCs to sit if they are not on a fire code. Not so with IHCs since they are nationally funded. It is in the regions best interest to keep IHCs here because A- they don't have to pay for them. B- They get to keep the most qualified and experienced crews in region to fight their fires. It makes perfect sense and meanwhile taxpayers in Montana, Florida, wherever bite the bullet. I wonder what senators and congressmen from these states would say if they were told that R-5 was hoarding the most experienced crews in the nation while their states were having catastrophic fires and sending less experienced crews when everybody pays into the same pot for IHCs.

Not trying to make anyone mad, just had a few things I wanted to get off my chest.

Thanks Ab for all you do, sign me-
negative creep.

We have an issue with one of our cooperators here in R3. It's a safety issue relating to call signs.

They insist on using their last name as their call sign. I think this is a safety and liability issue an IC standpoint. Is there any directive or letter that relates to this on why we use call signs and collar brass as identifiers?

The only discussion of this I could find on theysaid was the from Lobotomy on 3/16/07 in response to call sign and collar brass issues. Midland

You should be commended for using the new system of clear text terminology to describe fire positions. It is now being used in many places in Regions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8 now. The first time I saw it on a fire vehicle outside of Region 5 was at the IAWF Safety Summit in Missoula a couple of years ago. I saw many vehicles with DV 5, BC 41, CH 2, etc on their sides..... I thought, damn there are alot of Californians here. I soon realized that some of the vehicles also had ID-SCF, NV-HTF, etc. on their side panels. Sorry that your line officer is less than supportive.

It is alot more than "radio call signs" though.

It is funny that you address the line officer. When we implemented it in the late 1980's, our problems were the other forests in the Region and the other federal wildland firefighters who were resistant to change, not our line officers. Our line officers (Forest Supervisor and District Rangers) were fully supportive and had a good fire background and listened to the ideas of our leaders.

Before the change to our current system, we utilized a system that only we on the specific forest could understand. Here is an example of our system:

401 - District Ranger
402 - DFMO
403 - ADFMO - Suppression
404 - ADFMO - Prevention

We now use the following:

Supervisor 1 - Forest Supervisor
Supervisor 11 - Deputy Forest Supervisor
Ranger 1 - District Ranger
Ranger 11 - Deputy Ranger

Chief 1 - Forest FFMO (Chief)
Chief 2 - Forest Deputy FFMO (Deputy Chief)
Division 1 - District FMO (Division Chief)
Battalion 11 - Asst. District FMO (Battalion Chief).... etc.....etc...

Aside from the fire program, we also use other clear text terminology to help even us on the Forest understand who we are talking to.....

Lands 33 - Lands and Special Uses
Recreation 44 - Recreation
OHV 31 - OHV person
Information 1 - Public Affairs Officer
Forester 1 - District Forester
Heritage 1 - District Heritage Resources Officer
Minerals 1 - District Minerals Officer... etc.... etc....

Lots of other examples of clear text available.

To our cooperators (local, statewide, and national), when they came to our fires, they had no idea who they were talking to, or what their level of responsibility was.

I have the same problems in other Regions when I travel to some other areas of the country during fire assignments. There are still Forests who use a person's name or number to describe what their job or level of responsibility is.

Midland, I have not been able to find anything. Does anyone know about official letters on call signs? I found several directives on collar brass that were posted here in the past.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2005/collar-brass05.doc
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/BriefingPaperCollarBrass.doc

As I recall Ray Q had a good discussion on why we use collar brass and call signs in some presentation years ago. Anybody got that documentation? There was a good post by Clancey (who is not Q) on 7/20/08 on collar brass:

I have to weigh in here,

It's not about collar brass. It's about building professional relationships with your cooperators. What that has evolved to here, goes back to the 1920's and the concurrent development of the Los Angeles County Forestry Department and Fire Districts, the Forest Service on the Angeles NF, and Cal Fire in their early efforts in fire protection.

As fire suppression efforts evolved, we found the break up of the Angeles, (Santa Barbara) Los Padres and Cleveland NF's and the creation of the new San Bernardino NF to better manage our firefighting and forest responsibilities. Rather than try to do our own thing we have been immensely influenced by our cooperative efforts and in retrospect, rightly so. We experience wildfires that extend across our various jurisdictions. It is imperative when among a sea of nomex that we followed the CAL Chiefs organization in their helmet color standard. In uniform scenarios our crew t-shirt did little to convey our experience, education and grade with our cooperators. In fact in this environment to wear a yellow hard hat and no identifying insignia as to levels of authority, meshed you in with the 1st day crewmember causing some confusion and discomfort to us and our cooperators. When I started 30 plus years ago we rode tankers, had foremen, wore hardhats and could not communicate by radio to our neighboring forests, not to mention our daily cooperators. Our training was based on the initiative of our "module leader", those of us striving for more education went on our own to Fire Science courses at our community colleges and attended State Fire Training courses, there was nothing else. As our efforts and education increased we gave better service to our public who needed our immediate aid. We saw horrors and pain and attended First Aid and EMT classes. We offered better service. As our skills increased we rejected the Lumberjack model of wildfire services and found our efforts more realistically paralleled the American Fire Service. We found over the years that wearing a beard interfered with the seal of our Self Contained Breathing Apparatus and washed our PPE as we found that carcinogens loaded our protective clothing and needed washing. As time evolved we found that dressing like the homeless with only firepants and boots to identify us in our communities, rich in military history and defense industry was not endearing us to our public, whose political support we counted upon. We know that such Fire Service leaders and truly professional organizations such as Phoenix and FDNY wear T-Shirts but learned here, that our public expected us to be uniform in their eye. As our cooperators increased in their professional climb thru training, education, and public service we wisely and sometimes begrudgingly followed suit. As I have served across the nation I will wear what you wear, less the cut offs and tennis shoes I've seen some of our cooperators wear. But in my assignments I firmly believe that we need to emulate the most professional of our cooperators in every facet including the responsibility to provide the best service that we can. Even if that means that I wear pins on my collar commensurate with my quals.

LCES
Clancey

I disagree, until it is clear how these investigations proceed, what content is important and until a solid trajectory to looking at organizational contributions is set, it is important to focus on that. This is about high reliability ORGANIZATIONS, the organization is the foundation from which individual firefighter safety springs. Perhaps some years down the road the balance you're looking for might flow, but much of what happens with individuals is a human factors and organizational issue. I have not read all of the report. I will be gone for the weekend to the wilderness. My posting of theysaid will likely be sparse. If you feel a need to comment after 1700 hours, please do it on the hotlist. Ab.

Kern County Fire Dept, Bakersfield, Ca lost one of the finest people in its department at 2100 this night. A Wildland Firefighter to his toes and a damn fine individual. Grant G. Young, Dozer Battalion Chief for Kern County lost his battle with cancer, and is resting in a better place. He started his career with the Forest Service on Fulton H.S., went to an engine crew, and then Kern County gained his experience, working his way up thru the ranks and the original Supt. for Rio Bravo IHC. He promoted to Batt. Chief over the dozers in Kern a few years ago, and was my mentor and friend til I retired. Always a mentor to young men and fire, he will be sorely missed by all.

I am miserably saddened by this, I knew it was coming, and am at a loss for better words. Please post as you see fit, and I will pass along arrangements as they come.

Don Hill

Our condolences, Don. Please let us know the details of his service. Ab.

Rio Hondo: Shoulder patch designed by Guillermo Macias. Worn as part of the uniform at the Rio
Hondo Wildland Fire Academy. Completing the WFA is a requirement for prospective members to join
the Roadrunners Fire Crew. Not all academy graduates are chosen as members of Crew77. (0509)

Feather River IHC: Here's the "Feather River Hotshots" logo. They have been certified since 2005.
Contributed by NL. (0609)

Howard Forest Willits and Laytonville CFD: "must be pretty old." Sent in by Paul Howard,
Monterey Airport FD - ret. (0609)

Thanks. Ab.

FYI,

Attached is correspondence from NMAC regarding NWCGs decision on
staging and length of assignment for IMTs. Please take the time to share
the information with your Teams. I will be sending the latest updates to
the IC/AC/NIMO contact list early next week.

NMAC Correspondence - IMT Staging -Length of Assignment

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/nmac-length-of-assignment.doc

"The NFFE FSC collaborated with agency Safety and Law Enforcement and Investigations (LEI) leadership to develop a policy for serious incidents. LEI investigations were already required for serious incidents. The problem is they were getting mixed up with Safety investigations. The new policy builds a firewall between them. We believe this new policy will significantly improve employee rights."

Was this collaboration with the Forest Service Washington DC Office of Safety and Occupational Health (OSOH), or with the Forest Service Fire Operations Risk Management Council?

There are vastly different opinions between the two groups regarding the recent FS letter (and among the researchers working behind the scenes, et al.), even though they are both FS chartered groups. These differing opinions are deep seated and rooted in background and Commanders Intent, rather than Leaders Intent, and may eventually determine whether the Forest Service ever realizes "Foundational Doctrine", "Just Culture", "High Reliability Organizing", or ever makes true and lasting improvements towards wildland firefighter and aviation safety.

I understand that some folks serve on both FS chartered organizations and cannot often openly comment "officially", and the discussions are complex and often tiring, but if NFFE is supporting (collaborated with) a letter from the Chief that is laden with landmines and suppositions not supported either legally or factually in employee protection or Lessons Learned , further clarification is needed before support can be given. The intent is good and a positive starting point, but the application might undermine ten years of progress if Congress doesn't act and put us back into the stone age.

Thanks in advance for your reply. Best of luck in your continued Bargaining Unit Agreement negotiations with the Forest Service. Please keep firefighter issues as an emphasis and focus item, not a bargaining chip with the Agency that can be traded away for concessions. NFFE has and will continue to be a great partner with the FWFSA in communicating federal wildland firefighter issues, even if those actions have to come from the lowest levels of membership, community, and family.

JMHO opinion after communicating with peers.

Lobotomy

Great guy. We'll miss him! Ab.

Retirement flyer

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/reunion/bl-hills-helitack50anniv.doc

Good Luck

BW

Here's the beginning text of his post is below. Click the link to read the rest.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/rebuttal-legal-chief-letter.htm

Re: Federal Laws Still on the "books" (2009)... aka Cr*p (Accountability) Rolling Uphill

This is a promise to those lost and their families to fulfill our promises to them that things will become safer and factually addressed. It was a personal promise and an organizational promise.

Important snippits of info from current federal LAW that is often overlooked by many through either intentional or unintentional acts, commissions, or omissions as land managers in the complex world of federal wildland fire management. We can and must do better in this absolute mess, and stop accepting that a future "Line Officer" will ever take the lead without understanding the true risks vs gain:

The FWFSA and NFFE are grounded on the facts supporting our community and our membership.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<Snipped lots of legal documentation to support his argument>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No authorization (legislation) exists for the recent memo from the "Chief" or Joel to substantiate the current memo direction to the field... to provide the services they seek to perform.... in reality, those services are supposed to be provided entirely by the FBI, with minimal exceptions provided by PL 107-203. All links are provided as is under federal law, and yes, I have commented under the advice of an attorney, peers, and friends to make things safer.

Lobotomy

L, I snipped some on theysaid but not on your page. It's too time consuming for me to re-format and as is, makes theysaid too bulky. Thus, I gave it its own page that includes all the legal documentation I snipped. Readers, you can access it at the link above. Ab.

Contemplating a Grievance,

Northnight

The Abs / wildlandfire.com: What are we? What do we do? How do we effect change?

In the last 9 months I have heard from a number of people -- including families of fallen, tragedy survivors, firefighters needing a legal network/advice, congress people, several in the WO and ROs, congressional staffers and members of communities where fires have burned, European and Australian supporters, one CALFIRE chief, Ray Q and others who once were or still are high up the fire management supervisory chain -- that we Abs need to do more to "blow wildlandfire.com's horn". Original Ab and I are more private, non-chest-thumping, very busy service-oriented people who do not ask for much of anything from anybody and are more inclined to let what we and this website do speak for itself. Here's a summary requested by many...

Follow-up on Lobotomy's post below: They Said It exists in part to protect those who do not have the status, the money, the resources, the network, the protections in place to protect themselves when tragedy occurs in our risky fire environments.

They Said It -- a moderated discussion forum -- exists to

• share good ideas,
• research topics,
• provide fire news and announcements,
• ask questions,
• communicate watchout situations,
• answer questions,
• network,
• educate,
• seek solutions from the ground up,
• provide safety and lessons-learned info, and communicate about that,
• dialog about firefighter health and injury risks, short and long-term, physical and psychological,
• support firefighters involved in legislative change that protects wildland firefighters; including supporting the FWFSA, an association of federal members that educates Congress,
• band together to create the change we all feel is needed -- at local and national levels,
• support each other's change,
• promote leadership,
• promote professionalism,
• right injustice
• clarify when others get it wrong, expect accountability,
• share photos and fun stuff, mourn, vent and celebrate,
• support the fallen, their families, survivors, and those involved in tragedy as only the Abs can,
• support the fallen, survivors and their families in conjunction with the WFF,
• and most importantly,
  • reinforce that groundpounder and firefighting groundpounder manager are professionals with fire knowledge, training, skills and experiences not possessed by others that have not fought fire
  • give the groundpounder VOICE across agencies and groups. (AKA: Wildland Firefighter REALITY CHECK!)

The Hotlist -- an auto-posting forum -- exists for similar purposes, but today is more geared toward breaking wildfire news, thanks to contributors and also to our Mods.

• Initial Attack and
• Extended Attack, Large Fires and Incident within an Incident.
• database

That's it...

We provide the "vessel" (the forums, the networking, some research, lots of communicating, writing and editing);
the wildland fire community fills it.

It's up to you to tell others about wildlandfire.com and to participate however you want.
"Do or do not. There is no try," as Yoda said.

Ab.

PS: I'll ask Original Ab to contribute some of our stats on readership.. It's interesting who reads wlf.com from around the world.

Lobotomy, the whole point of the big re-write of the FS-5100 was to make line officers accountable, by clearly delineating their responsibilities, so they become the person where "buck stops". I keep wondering when the first serious lawsuit will be leveled against one of them. Oh wait, that's already happened on Cramer. Of course they have had PLI for many years so it's unlikely that any lawsuit against any one of them will succeed. (I'm not sure any lawsuit should; I know that like us they also go through serious psychological trauma when someone dies or is injured.)

Two years of fighting on these two issues and now we get big scores on both within days of each other. Sorry I haven't posted before on these, but I have to put follow-up with DC contacts first. And when it rains, it pours. So I'm really behind the curve on reporting out on what's happened recently.

I ask those whose initial impression of the new investigations policy was negative to slow down, take a careful look, follow the links, and reconsider. The new policy is a critical step toward ensuring a "no fault" safety investigation environment. The ball is now in Congress' court. We're continuing to work that - see the last link under Safety Investigation Reform Links.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Link to the full info here: www.nffe-fsc.org/documents/updates/june_1_2009.php

Beginning text below. Click the link above for all the info about what they've been working on. Ab.

NFFE Forest Service Council, Firefighter Issues, Update - June 1, 2009

Confidentiality of Safety Witness Statements

Safety witness statements obtained by OIG at Thirty-Mile were ultimately used to prosecute one of our firefighters for criminal negligence. At Dutch Creek, a criminal investigation was initiated by a FS Law Enforcement Officer who participated in the safety investigation.

Your union strongly supports an effective safety program. However, the kind of candid disclosures and speculations that are needed in a safety investigation are not possible under the looming threat of prosecution. That is why we are working hard to ensure the confidentiality of disclosures made in safety investigations.

The NFFE FSC collaborated with agency Safety and Law Enforcement and Investigations (LEI) leadership to develop a policy for serious incidents. LEI investigations were already required for serious incidents. The problem is they were getting mixed up with Safety investigations. The new policy builds a firewall between them. We believe this new policy will significantly improve employee rights. Now:

* LEI must inform Safety of whether a criminal investigation will occur prior to initiation of any safety investigation.
* LEI and Safety investigations will be conducted independently.
* Law Enforcement Officers will not participate in safety witness interviews.
* Safety witness interviews will not be disclosed outside of Safety.
* Employees will know the type of investigation being conducted and their rights before they participate

Be aware that safety witness statements even under the new policy are still subject to disclosure to third parties using discovery, subpoena, etc... Your union is actively pursuing legislation that would prevent disclosure under these circumstances. In the meanwhile, your union obtained agency agreement to inform employees about their rights at the time they are interviewed. Be sure you know the new policy and your rights in investigations. (See the sidebar for more information.)