If you have any questions about the H1N1 flu shot you can get it answered today Wed. 30 until 1900, KCRA has a call
line to answer questions about the H1N1 Flu shot. If you have questions about receiving a shot, what are the side effects, etc.
Doctors, Nurses and others from the Medical Community of Sacramento can answer most questions. (916) 447-2255.
(Thanks Rich for sharing)

Take Care.

Michelle

Michelle Reugebrink
R5 Safety & Occupational Health Specialist

Ab sez, Thanks for filling in about his life. What a loss.

Hi,

Saw your post on hydrogen cyanide. Thanks for spreading the word on the hazards. Wanted to also make you aware (if you aren't already) that the FDA approved a fairly new (for the USA) antidote for hydrogen cyanide poisoning. Europe has been using it for close to 15 years now with pretty amazing survival statistics. Seems to be taking a little longer for the movement to start in the US fire service. Cyanokit (hydroxocobalamin) is available in the US and its use pretty much eliminates any of the previous antidotes used for this. All the other antidotes have significant side effects and contraindications.

This new treatment is critical PRE-HOSPITAL TREATMENT!! There are no significant side effects and is given to anyone who is even suspected of an inhalation injury from a fire. Now, I haven't heard anyone actually using it for wildland exposures, but if the fire service can realize that they are exposed to hydrogen cyanide on every structure fire they go to, why not wildland. It's not just a hazmat anymore!

Wasn't able to add a reply to your post , so figured this was the next best way to get the info to you. Hope you will spread the word.

Thanks,
Chris

Hey Ab,

Here is something near and dear to my heart that may interest the readers who are interested to learn what is being
studied now to make their jobs safer and more efficient in the immediate future. USFS is involved as well as university
researchers, private sector companies and government agencies. See attached.

http://rit.edu/news/?r=46947

Fire Geek

ipler-pfi-dg.pdf (1566 K, 22 page, pdf file)

At 0715 Sunday morning 9/27/09 Ryan Wharton senior firefighter on Engine 62 (Mt Shasta) Shasta Trinity National Forest passed away. As with Ryan's style, he put up a great fight but succumbed to complications from injuries received from an accident at home which occurred on 9/22/09. I think I can speak for all his fellow firefighters and friends we are all deeply saddened by Ryan's passing, his spirit and great smile will truly be missed. Funeral/Memorial service information is not yet known and will be sent out as soon as possible.

Condolences, please keep us in the loop. Ab.

This was something my father (Tom Stein) used to do. Mom sent a batch of his recipe cards after he passed away,
and I had to share this one. Dad's been gone for 3 years now and I'm just getting around to going
through this portion of his stuff.

Tom's Rum Baked Beans

½ lb. Thick-sliced bacon
4 cans (1 lb. 3oz.) B&M baked beans
2 tsps. dry mustard
½ cup packed DARK brown sugar
¼ tsp. ground ginger
¼ cup strong, black coffee
½ cup dark rum
1 8oz. can sliced pineapple

Cut bacon into 2 lengths. Fry until crisp; drain; set aside.
Combine beans, mustard, ginger, brown sugar, coffee, and bacon.
(Use a large bowl for combining; its easier.)
Turn into a 3-qt. casserole dish or a 13 x 9 baking dish.
(At this point, you can cover and refrigerate til the next day.)
Bake, covered, for 45 minutes. 350 degree oven.
Take out; stir in rum, cut pineapple slices in half and arrange on top.
Bake again for about 30 minutes. Will be bubbly and maybe lightly browned.

The alcohol bakes out in the final step, so it's a safe "anytime" thing, although Dad only made
them on his days off. This makes a wonderful substitute for chili on "chili dogs".

Enjoy!
TS

Thanks, I added it to the Recipes collection, at the bottom. For those who don't know, Tom Stein worked at Ryan AAB and accomplished much in his 38 years with CDF -- a life well-lived. It's great to have his recipe. I'll try it. Ab.

Very interesting discussion about hazard tree felling. Several years ago I was on a Type 1 fire in which a Division Supervisor and one Operations Section Chief had a very "animated" discussion about whether to bring in a local timber faller to cut a hazard tree. The DIVS indicated he was a Class C faller with a great deal of experience and there was no way he would fall it. The OSC said he was very familiar with a local timber faller, that had been used numerous times to fall trees, and the OSC had a great deal of confidence in his skill and ability to fall the tree, and he wanted that person to make the decision.
What do you do when there are two people who feel equally qualified and are equally adamant that their position is correct? Err on the side of caution. Long story short, the IC made the decision; leave the tree, flag it off, notify all resources working the division, and let it come down on its own. Which it did, the next day, without any risk to anyone. The tree was a 'threat' to the line, however, that 'threat' was mitigated by having resources immediately available to respond when the tree did come down.

Recently, I was the ICT3 on a fire where we had numerous hazard trees that needed to be felled. The agency faller (B, moving towards a C) made the decision to "not" fall one of the trees. It was flagged off and all resources were notified to stay out of that area. It was a good decision. As the ICT3 I looked at the tree, and it was never even a consideration to ask for a qualified C faller, as it would have been an unnecessary risk.

It does happen..................... sometimes we say "leave it". Unfortunately, it probably does not happen often enough.

KC

Ab-

Ryan Wharton Firefighter from the Shasta Trinity National Forest is still in very critical condition at
Mercy Hospital in Redding. This was a non work related accident that happened at home. Ryan's
family, fire family and friends are supporting him, his family and girlfriend at this time. As we know
more we will send out information on how people can help.

Please keep Ryan and his family in your thoughts and prayers.

Pat

Does anyone know where we can send cards or otherwise support him and his family? I feel terrible about this.

noname

I put a call in to a SHF Batt Chief to see what kind of help is needed. Thoughts and prayers. Ab.

"Positions within this level require skills acquired through specific job training, technical education or experience, and require the ability to apply or use specialized, complicated techniques or equipment. The incumbent of the position is expected to instruct others in the requirements of the job, plan work, or supervise positions at the next lower level. This level requires independent judgment and decision making. The carryout of assignments and most problem resolution are expected to be completed independently by the incumbent of the position."

But, what do you get extra for carrying an agency Faller C qual and all the extra responsibility? The agencies can't expect to retain quality sawyers if the only option for advancement means doing something else. It's no wonder that we have folks like the FALC contributor who has the job in sagebrush territory, or like on the Pike-San Isabel National Forest, where the forest saw coordinator has an assignment on the grasslands of eastern Colorado.

vfd cap'n

Hey Ab, At least the forest supes are sane...

The forest supes put pressure on the Chief and and he bowed to pressure... he's "submitting the request for
authority to expend severity for helicopter contract extensions through October 10."

Of course all kinds of admonishments... about regional effort...

Rotorhead

captured a still at 1440 hours if you can't access the cam. HOTLIST Ab.

The Chief of fire in R5 has made a management decision to let all 7-8 helicopters in CA go off contract
when their contracts are up  (Sat Sept 26 - Tues Oct 29). LIKE TOMORROW

that leaves

• 5 in NOPS: 2 that carry people stationed at Trinity and Big Hill; 2 limited T2s (cargo and water
  only); 1 T1 (in OR right now)
• 11 in SOPS: combination of exclusive use, T1s

Oh, the rationale?

• only predicted NWinds this next week
• no lightning until the end of the week (what about the weeks after that???)
• ERCs in north and south are hitting new records, we're in a drought ... oh wait, Special Ed that
  would be a reason to keep them! Remember the Station Fire?
• the sun's going down sooner these days??? not so much day that we have to fight fire? can't get
  our $$ worth??? go figgure!

Rotorhead

I know the faller that this whole discussion started over and I also know that he is a well trained and experienced faller.. If he was not comfortable with the tree he would not have accepted the assignment.. If we were to leave every tree standing that posed a threat to the person falling it, there would be no need for fallers on the first-line.. Like I said it's good to talk about and to come up with safer ways to do things but lets not forget it's a dangerous job and, as long as there are people out there doing this job, accidents will happen.

Realistic Thinker..

She walked a bit yesterday, slept well and as her family says, "It is going to be another long tough day for her. Her lungs are still very bruised and all the blood in them needs to work its way out of her chest. Keep praying she is fighting hard."

Sign on at her website, read the complete updates and offer encouragement. Ab.

I haven't seen or heard anything in quite a while about the (alleged) dozer entrapment in Texas that was being
discussed back in late August. Does anyone have any updated information on this?

GA Firestorm81

sdfire--

The problem is not necessarily regarding "letting private resources on a wildland fire (in regards to the insurance industry)." The problem is in accountability. As long as these "private" resources are assigned to the fire by the Incident Management Team, have appropriate communications, and appropriate supervisory personnel then there shouldn't be a problem. This, however, has not always been the case.

A list of concerns regarding these resources:
1. They are private resources paid to protect individual houses of holders of specific company policies. An agency engine would try to save the neighborhood, but there is uncertainty (lack of trust) that private resources would take the same action for non-policy holders.

2. These private resources take their marching orders from a company, not the IMT. This can lead to conflicts of interest for the engine module when their direction from the company (stay and fight) conflicts with the direction of the IMT (bail). If you are on the fire, you are the responsibility of the IMT and they will bear the brunt of any criticism if there is a failure resulting in injury due to these conflicts.

3. Accountability, especially during initial attack. Dispatches from multiple agencies send multiple engines/resources, and it is on the IC to establish a unified command scheme and ascertain the location of all assigned resources. This becomes much harder when private individuals/companies self-dispatch without the knowledge of the other dispatch agencies. Couple this lack of knowledge with a lack of communication, and you wind up with people getting cut off and overrun as they are trying to go direct while everyone else is firing out.

So, to sum up--
As long as these resources become established in the team, have appropriate communications, and are able to sever their company direction and instead take direction from said team, everything is OK and they are just another engine. If this doesn't happen, they are a huge liability and also a huge pain in the ass.

Class C Sagebrush Faller

P.S.--As a felling boss, I have seen numerous what I would call "close calls" from the falling sets I have worked with. There appears to be a normalization of risk involved here that is not being discussed in the thread-- what Agency folks are comfortable with is significantly different than what the fallers are comfortable with, which may be a driver as to why C fallers from the agency are on the way out. The reality of the situation is that the professional fallers are just that- professionals, but sometimes unfamiliar with the special hazards that fire causes. This provides the fire with 2 concurrent strategies: 1. "They are professionals and get the job done better than the agency folks" (increased production) and 2. "They are professionals and should have known better" (ass covering).

I personally think they are worth every cent they are paid, but I worry about them every time I get a felling boss assignment because of the risks they are comfortable taking, and the stubbornness encountered when you try as a "casual" tree feller to talk them out of a tree that they have already decided to cut.

From his assertion I am assuming that all the fallers were fit because there was no question
of fitness in the accident reports.

OK. I kinda thought that was my point.
Or did I miss something again?

Left Hook

Ab and All,

I just came out from seeing Becky. The Doctor gave permission
for Becky to start moving around. The nurse got a chair out so that
Becky could move from her bed to the chair. When Becky got up she
asked if she could go for a walk. The Nurses couldn't believe it.
Becky walked about 100 feet with all of her tubes plugged into her.
The personnel in the trauma ICU were impressed and called her a
rock star and held up a "10" score.

Just want to thank you all. Becky is reading the e-mails and it is really
helping her. I invite you to look at her care page; all those posts and
the e-mails to enloe hospital are really lifting her spirits.

www.carepages.com

Enter
beckyquigley one word in the search

Darin

Thanks Darin.
Readers, it's easy to sign up there. The posts of support are wonderful to behold. Darin and Nancy's updates are inspirational. Becky is inspirational! If anyone wants to send support messages as text messages or otherwise, I'd be happy to pass them on. Becky, you go girl!

Readers, please let me note again that Becky and her parents requested the release of the private medical information they've shared over the last few days. (When people would rather not share, HIPPA protects a patient's privacy on medical issues.) Darin replied when I asked: "Becky is a third generation firefighter; my family also has several other members currently in the fire service. Because of this we are inundated with requests for information. Your website has helped soften this." Ab reply, "We're happy to soften."

Everyone, please visit their new website for more updates and please keep this extended family -- that is part of our fire family -- in your thoughts and prayers. Ab.

AB,

Now I Know that I am going to pick at a scab, but I need to know for my own sanity, What is the main fighting point about letting private resources on a wildland fire (in regards to the insurance industry). My background is about 12 years both municipal and wildland, and I can`t wrap my head around the distaste for these guys. I work for a company that is contracted for such a response. We are red carded, pack tested, and most have many, many years of fire background. Now I may still be green in the operational scheme of things, but I would see this as an added resource on a fire. If we can cover houses assigned by the insurance companies, why not assign us to a portion of the neighborhood. This would allow local government and state and federal to commit resources to active fire attack?

P.S don`t go batcrp on me fellas, i`m just tryin to find a happy medium

sdfire

Hi Ab's. 

Wanted to pass along the R-5 Partnership Council notes for July.  Mostly wanted to share information on the
retention update and housing policy.

fed/nffe-fs-072309.htm

Letterman - An FWFSA Member - Stand Strong, Stand Together

Ab-

The person that intimated that the expression the quick and the dead only applies to gunfighters and not fallers has not been paying attention. I haven't seen many jumbo fallers.
These guys are quick and fit.
I lived on the same block as the lead faller for The Pacific Lumber Company (PL) when I was a kid. Bill Ross was tall and thin except that he had the guns of a middle linebacker. Quiet, Gary Cooper kind of man.
I went to high school with a man who became Bull of the Woods for PL. He was cut and very fast. Harvey Holt is his name.
I maintain that these guys live because they are clean and aware and deadly quick. And maybe just a little lucky.

Lefty

****************************
From: Lt. General Harold G. Moore
"Leadership in War and Peace"

Always trust in your instincts. Instincts and intuition give one an immediate estimate of a situation. Your instincts are the product of your training, reading, personality and experience. If my head tells me one thing and my gut tells me something else, I always go with my gut.
&
Everything in leadership boils down to judgment; the key-defining characteristic of a leader. Judgment reveals the poor leaders, the good leaders and the superb leaders. A person can possess a high IQ but still lack judgment. Intelligence does not always equal wisdom.
&
Every person in an organization is as important and necessary to a mission as the next person. That goes from the top to the bottom. The rifleman private down in the ranks was just as vital as I was in getting a job done.
&
Always remember to never deprive a person of their self-respect.
&
To do well in any field of endeavor, you have to work for good people.
&
Strive to have one or two people under you who are totally trustworthy - who will be honest with you when you are going off track on an issue or situation. The essence of loyalty is for an underling to tell his boss, “I don’t think you ought to do this and here is why.”
****************************

William Riggles

Ab-

Here is another update-

Becky is having her ET tube extubated. She is excited about that.

Major concern from her doctor is she still has a leak in her lung and her blood count is low, she might need a blood transfusion.

Her spirits are still very high.

Her crew left this morning. Several of them got to see her and that lifted her spirits.

Darin and Nancy

Good news. I know there's still miles of healing ahead. We're all hoping for a speedy recovery. Hotlist thread Ab.

Safety Angel,

Interesting moniker you give yourself when the first issue out of the box you feel compelled to focus on is cost. This is a classic agency position for someone who refuses to recognize AND acknowledge the fact that fallers have been working for decades on agency administered wildland fires WITHOUT injury /fatality insurance. Since you provide the cheap AD price as a comparison to the “more expensive” falling team costs, it’s apparent your cost comparison/appraisal is missing some vital information.

At this point, may I ask you, would you work on a wildland fire without injury/fatality insurance? Would you allow any of your agency people to work uninsured? Because that’s certainly what historically has been happening with AD fallers. And until Alan Wyatt was killed in Colorado fighting a Forest Service fire as an AD and his family was denied any death benefits I don’t really think you, nor most Forest Service personnel realized that fallers WERE working uncovered. Our Congressional delegation certainly was not aware of it.

Yes, I remember the R-1(Montana/North Idaho) sarcasm about the faller program when it was born. The first visits I made to R-1 were to discuss issues around setting standards for commercial fallers working on wildfires. Paul Chamberlain and RC Carroll were extremely supportive. Paul even came over to Oregon to attend the first Timber Faller Roundtable in 2002 to be a part of the conversation. The Roundtable was orchestrated and funded by the private sector, by the way, not the agencies. I guess if you call committing that much personal time and energy to achieving something as important as improving the SAFETY of fallers working on the fireline (and everyone they work around) as “Drumming up business” well then…you’ve pretty much laid out your fractured philosophy. Is that what setting standards is called?

Helpful that you identified yourself as R-1 – Your comments about falling teams makes so much sense now. Felling culture and practices are different in the Northwest. Fallers in the NW & N.Calif. work in teams, sir. The concept of the Faller Module program came from that practice. The recommendations CAME from commercial fallers in the NW, because this is where the initiative was born to establish standards for fireline fallers – not Montana.

Fallers only work together on larger trees when they feel it is necessary and then work separately, in parallel strips when that’s appropriate. My recommendation to you is that, when you make a broad statement such as it’s a contentious issue amongst experienced fallers, qualify it… It’s a contentious issue in Montana. Your view on saw teams is the exception rather than the rule overall. I don’t know what to tell you. It’s amazing that the Faller Module program made it to national implementation if your woods logic is so sound.

You said: “It's my contention that if there was a way to get the statistics, they would show that a large percentage of the serious injury or fatalities from saw accidents are a direct result of more than one around the stump.” The statistics ARE there. If you’re so convinced that this is a crucial point, GO GET THE PROOF. Otherwise, it’s unsubstantiated. The simplistic assumptions of this statement don’t hold water. Felling scenarios are complex and varied. It takes knowledge and wisdom on the ground to make sound decisions, not blind adherence to your “rules.”

There are myriad war stories and field experiences that can be used to bolster a particular position (such as your FFT2 road guard or our faller’s disgust at an IC walking right into their falling area to have lunch) but the bottom line is that, even though it has some glitches, the Faller Module program has exponentially improved the fireline faller situation across the country. Period. The increased cost is due to INSURANCE coverage, something most agency personnel, such as you, continue to be oblivious of.

And, sir, whether or not you like it, and whether or not you allow it, as long as commercial fallers exist they will always cut on this nation’s wildland fires because they’ve been putting out fires longer than your agency has been around. The primary point of the Faller Module program was first to establish standards.

Last, bringing up Palmer with such bravado is disgusting. I continue to be amazed at such armchair after action quarter backing. Also, let Mr. Chamberlain speak for himself as to what compelled his work. As with any great individual who has left the Forest Service, I continue to see their achievements manipulated to serve the political agenda of those remaining.

Shari Downhill

P.S. Casey…Dude…Cottonwoods SUCK. ((Sorry)) The recommendation of removing them from the top down (with a bucket truck NOT a climber) is what makes the most sense. And yes, we can do dinner rather than appetizers. Misery was right. You deserve it.

Safety Angel and others:

“For the guy that wanted to know why there aren't many calls for agency C fallers, it's because we usually can't fill the orders.”

While that is certainly the biggest reason, currently there is also the encroaching concept that ‘C Fallers’ are not acceptable for the professional falling (module) assignment. The national contract was apparently changed in 2008 for these modules and former ‘C’ fallers - no longer with an agency - are no longer acceptable. (This does present one of those interesting right hand / left hand moments; as there can be ‘C’ fallers with an agency – on the fireline - doing hazard tree removal while the next falling team over does not allow that level of experience and they are doing the same job.)

There are other differences.

The Pro Modules are not required to have had S-130 and S-190 nor are they required to pass the pack test.
This does bring up again the point that Pro Cutters certainly need a Falling Boss, who is a qualified fire fighter, because they are on a fire. Even if there is a particular company that does meet the 130/190 minimums I would suggest that for supervisory level positions on the line a significant experience background is warranted.

There are other reasons, of course.

However, without a falling boss class, who are we to complain about training? We are not walking the talk.

I do expect that like everything else we will continue to migrate toward a more professional level of falling on fires.
Expect:
1) More modules, less agency and fewer individual AD fallers.
2) The modules being required to up their training to that of basic wildland fire fighters.
3) The modules to also meet arduous fire fighter fitness standards.
4) The FALB position to be more formally recognized and a Class/Task Book established.

{….. and I never really mentioned having any sort of standardized training/testing/journeyman/certification for Pro Fallers. Just because there is none why should that get discussed?}

Fuels Guy

Fuels Guy, Tim Stubbs, William Riggles, mikef, & All,

Great discussion on extreme fire behavior. Attached is a proposal I will be submitting to the F & AM Steering
Committee this winter. I would be interested to hear your opinions on it.

RPD.doc (43 K, 5 page doc file)

Tim Lynch

RPD = Recognition Primed Decision-making

Ab,

Thanks for posting Becky's info on your web page.

Here is a quick update for everyone.

Becky fractured her T2,T3,T4,T5,T6 Spinous processes, left 5,7 and right 10th ribs and left Scapula. Her most
serious injury that is going to require her to be on a ventilator for several days is her left pneumothorax and lung
contusions.

Becky has a great attitude and is writing us lots of notes due to her not being able to talk because of the ventilator.

I want to thank everyone for all their calls, text messages and e-mails and just ask that everyone keep praying for
Becky's quick recovery.

We're working on a web page so people can check Becky's status.
www.carepages.com
You will need to search beckyquigley one word to find her page.

You can also e-mail her on the Enloe Hospital web page and they bring them to her room.

We have also been getting lots of request's on how people can help. If you could spread the word that they can
donate to the WFF in Becky's name that would be great. Vicky and the WFF have been very helpful.

Thanks for all your prayers and thoughts,

Darin, Nancy, Heather, Chelsea and Brian

I've held off as long as I could. It's been interesting as well as frustrating reading what has been said concerning falling operations.

First of all I'm glad that your sawyer is doing OK, Shari. We all know that this is a very dangerous profession. I actually met you a couple of times when you came to the R 1 Saw Certifiers meetings to drum up business. I've had the opportunity to work around some of your sawyers and overall they are very good. I'm supportive that if we have to use contract sawyers then we should make sure that they are quality and from what I've seen of your sawyers, they are quality.

That being said they are also very expensive. On the Rattlesnake Fire in north Idaho a couple of years ago, we had a saw team from Oregon that might have been yours, a team from California, and a lone AD sawyer from the area that was an out of work logger. The team from Oregon was $150 an hour, the team from California was $175 an hour, and the AD was somewhere around $24- $28 an hour. Do the math. We were working 16 hour days so we were paying the team from California $2800 a day. Since only one sawed at a time, that is $1400 a day that we were paying the what ever you want to call them, swamper, road guard, spotter. The AD sawyer that used a FF 2 as a road guard was every bit as productive.

This brings up my next issue, saw teams. This is kind of a contentious issue amongst experienced sawyers. Years ago there were district saw crews or fire crews that sawed together all of the time. We used to fall hundreds of trees each season when we prepped burn units, fell for fish structures, etc... Many of us worked logging when we got laid off for the winter. Those days are gone unless you go to a lot of rehab from fires. I fell over 1000 trees in a two week period on the Cerro Grande rehab. The point is since 1991 when most regions went to the S-212 that is taught today we don't have saw teams. We teach that everyone but the sawyer needs to be at least two tree lengths from the stump (2 1/2 for the FS S-212). OSHA wrote the FS up for the fatality on the Palmer fire last year because we allowed the deceased to be within two tree lengths of the stump. It's the law! I don't know of any loggers that would allow anyone in the strip that they are falling.

It's my contention that if there was a way to get the statistics, they would show that a large percentage of the serious injury or fatalities from saw accidents are a direct result of more than one around the stump.

Shari mentioned the " Sim Limb" exercise that Paul Chamberlin created. One of the main reasons that he came up with it was to prove to the people --that were against limiting people to one at the stump-- that none of their warning methods worked. I went through it at least six different years multiple times where we allowed our opponents to try any warning method that they wanted and I can not think of one time that their method was proven adequate. We tried

• the string,
• the shoulder tap,
• the stick,
• throwing rocks (I always used to big of rocks which created its own hazard),
• radio ear pieces.

I'm not against the concept of team falling if we teach it and practice it, but that's not going to happen. So why would we allow it on fires? As a Type 2 OPS or Safety, I won't allow it. Order the SAWYERS that you need, not falling teams.

Felling Boss- I have it on my red card, but the last time that I used it was the Fawn Peak/ Pot Po fires in Washington. Not very many calls come in for it, which amazes me. It's the same as a Dozer Boss or an Engine Strike team Leader. Why would we turn Fallers lose on a fire with no supervision? They had a lot of Felling Bosses on the Biscuit Fire. I think it's a span of control thing. A few years back they were going to require a Felling Boss class, but to this point have not created one. Before that, the FMO usually gave the qualification to their more experienced sawyers. R1 wants to make it a requirement for felling boss to be a C faller. Any thoughts?

For the guy that wanted to know why there aren't many calls for agency C fallers, it's because we usually can't fill the orders. The C fallers are also the STL, Div Sup., or the other overhead positions. Once the fire season starts, they are all gone doing other things.

I've vented long enough. Be safe out there and look up. I sawed for over 30 years on fires and they were some of the best assignments that I had.

Safety Angel

Silver Fire
Accident Update:
September 22, 2009 10:00 a.m.

Firefighter Becky Quigley, a member of the Salmon River Hot Shots, was injured on Monday, September 21 at approximately 10:30 in the evening. Struck by a vehicle in fire camp, Quigley received treatment at the scene and was later transferred to Enloe Medical Center in Chico, CA. She is in critical, but stable condition.

The Salmon River Hot Shots, assigned to the Silver Fire on the Plumas National Forest, were an instrumental part of the successful effort to protect the community of Meadow Valley, CA. The fire is now 100% contained.

The Salmon River Hot Shots are from the Klamath National Forest and are based out of Fort Jones, CA.

An investigation of the accident is in process.

For information, please call (530) 283-7882 during office hours (8:00-4:30).

Fuels Guy,

You are right about NASA's overall objectives for the Canadian campaign. But their scope
included our team's (Brian Stocks and I) contribution which was to connect fire behavior
to the emissions. Post-campaign analysis is still in progress; we are assembling info on the
fires, fuels, and pyroconvection for the others on the campaign to associate with their measurements.
The data will become public within the next year. Publications are just now starting to get into
peer-review stage. There will be a big session at the American Geophysical Union's Fall 2009
meeting on this campaign's first results.

I like "cloak of smoke" and agree with your assessment.

Perhaps a fire equivalent of tornado storm-chasing is a good model for this proposed experiment.
Even if seeding the fuel bed with foil tracers can't be done, having a dense network of eyes, ears,
video cameras, IR cameras, mobile radars, other strategic instruments, and aircraft in scramble
mode would work.
It would be ideal to follow a candidate fire's entire diurnal cycle this way.

mikef

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gov. Schwarzenegger Mobilizes Additional Resources in Preparation for this Week’s Increased Heat and Fire Danger

Directs Cal/OSHA to Carry Out Largest Heat Enforcement Effort in its History

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger today mobilized the California Emergency Management Agency (Cal EMA) and California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE) to prepare for increased wildfire potential as unseasonably hot and dry conditions are forecast for much of California this week. Additionally, the Governor directed Cal/OSHA to carry out the largest heat enforcement effort in its history to protect California’s workers from heat-related illness during this week’s high temperatures.

“California must be ready for any fires or heat-related illnesses that may occur as hot and dry conditions continue throughout the state,” said Governor Schwarzenegger. “I’ve directed our state’s first responders to prepare for any situation that may arise and ensure that our resources are prepositioned and ready to respond quickly. We must do everything we can to protect the safety of all Californians and California’s workers during this extreme heat.”

The National Weather Service has issued several “Red Flag Warnings” and “Fire Weather Watches” for parts of Northern and Southern California this week, warning residents about the increased fire potential created by hot temperatures, low humidity and off-shore winds. Winds are forecast to occur late Monday night into Tuesday morning and again Tuesday night into Wednesday morning with gusts up to 35 miles per hour (mph) in the passes and canyons and local gusts up to 45 mph .

Additionally, the Governor has directed Cal/OSHA to carry out the largest heat enforcement effort in its history. Investigators will comb the areas throughout California, ensuring compliance to the state’s heat illness prevention regulations . This week’s enforcement activity involves more than 20 enforcement teams and approximately 70 Cal/OSHA personnel. The Department of Industrial Relations Division of Labor Standards Enforcement’s Licensing Unit will also be on hand to verify the status of required licenses in the agriculture setting for Farm Labor Contractors. Enforcement staff will verify contractor’s licenses in the construction industry through the Contractors State License Board .

As a result of the increased fire risk potential, Cal EMA has coordinated with CAL FIRE and local agencies to identify state, federal and local firefighting resources such as fire engines, water tenders, helicopters and air tankers available to be deployed from throughout the state. Cal EMA is also working closely with the National Weather Service to monitor any new developments, and Cal EMA and CAL FIRE will quickly deploy resources anywhere they are needed.

Cal EMA has called for the activation of two Cal EMA Type III fire engine strike teams from Los Angeles, Riverside and San Diego Counties. A total of 10 fire engines designed to combat wildfires in areas unreachable to conventional engines are being staffed to be ready to respond at a moment’s notice.

CAL FIRE continuously monitors fire weather and bases staffing levels on current and predicted conditions. Because of the elevated wildfire threat, CAL FIRE increased staffing across the state on Friday, September 18, and has pre-positioned additional equipment to areas of the state where fire danger is heightened due to the existing weather pattern.

To ensure that our state is prepared to battle any fire that may occur as a result of the hot and dry conditions forecasted for this week, CAL FIRE has:

* Fully staffed CAL FIRE inmate fire crews .
* Fully staffed CAL FIRE bulldozers.
* Fully staffed CAL FIRE reserve fire engines .
* Increased staffing in all Emergency Command Centers.
* Arranged for air tankers to be made available earlier in the day as needed .
* Staffed a Mobile Communication Center and Mobile Kitchen Unit .
* Staffed fire lookouts in northern California as determined by the local unit chief.
* Staffed additional fire engines, bulldozers and fire crews in Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, Kern and Marin counties .
* Funded a fourth firefighter on all state funded engines in Los Angeles, Orange and Ventura count ies.

As part of the Governor’s ongoing commitment to emergency preparedness, he issued Executive Order S-05-09 in May, which mobilizes CAL FIRE to secure and deploy the additional resources and personnel that are necessary to save lives and protect homes statewide from wildfires.

Haw Haw Haw! Ab.

Fuels Guy

I just finished Shawna's "No Grass". A very candid story of what really goes on in a firefighter's life minus
the sensationalism. Legarza was brutally honest about her life and its realities and how important it is to
survival to maintain a good attitude, live well, be strong and value what you have in the moment. I'm
heartbroken for her loss but appreciate her bravery in sharing it. Five Saws.

-Dozershot

Added it to the Book Reviews page. Ab.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that an advance in technology for warning sawyers should replace safety or realistic assessment of risk or ability. It seems to me, though, that with as many firefighters as we have, as long as we keep having seasonal firefighters cut trees or operate in areas with snags, people are going to get hit. I think training and pushing the need for risk analysis carries us a certain way, but never the whole way to safety -- my basis for that belief is: even with training and use of common sense, we have requirements to wear PPE, and requirements to carry a shelter. Also, there are many sayings in the aviation world about not becoming mission-focused, always thinking about risk vs. gain, and yet I think many would confess that there are unnecessary flights and unnecessarily risky flying ("gun-runs" or flying around neat topographic features) almost every day in fire season.

To me, a standardized system for warning a sawyer would be like a hardhat -- yeah, you should absolutely be aware of overhead hazards, but stuff happens. And unless there is a policy change away from agency seasonals cutting trees, I think we'll keep getting accidents, no matter how hard we emphasize saying no, risk analysis, and safe cutting techniques in S-212 and other training opportunities.

Just some thoughts, sitting in my office wishing I was on a fire

EA

These guys are right on - visualize / net risk vs benefit -
and class C knew when to say no. That's Fire Suppression DOCTRINE!

"Can do" doesn't mean you can"t say "NO"

Left Hook also offers up a new method that works well between folks used to working together.

But you have to swamp out your escape routes especially in tight brush

Thanks to all firefighters you came home and brought their brothers and sisters with them. We owe
them a pat on the back. It's too bad we do not have exit polls and ask for lessons learned.

Fork in the Trail

When I was a spotter/swamper for them fellers (fallers) they told me to have a handful of pebbles. If I saw
anything that would endanger them, as quickly as I could I would throw the rocks at their hard hat and whatall.
That was the signal that some nastiness was headed their way and they could bail, ditch, run or crouch. They
usually ran. We had areas they could escape to. As a high school pitcher I could get the stones there pretty
quick and they would hear or feel them. It's the quick and the dead out there don't you know?

Left Hook

Later when the FS came up with the A,B,C Faller classification a comment was made ... The real difference between
the level B & C classification was the C faller knew when to say NO.

Makes sense to me.
Fish01

Thanks everyone for sending in updates on the cancellation!!! Ab.

This came in a while ago:

Due to the revised fire weather forecast (temps back in the mid-90s, some wind), the Station Fire firefighter tribute on
The Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien has been postponed.

New tentative date would be the 2nd week of October or when conditions subside. Each of 3 departments was providing
20 firefighters each for the taping. Even though the segment would be 2-3 minutes, it would require a commitment of being
at Universal Studios for several hours.

The Station Fire is currently 160,557 acres and 93% contained. The estimated time for full containment has been pushed
back from Saturday to Tuesday (9/22).

www.inciweb.org/incident/1856/

Stanton Florea
Fire Information / Public Affairs
Angeles National Forest
Arcadia, CA

-MJ

For first time in 27-year history, two women join the ranks of White Mountain Apache Tribe firefighters

Nzhoo shils aash, Nzhoo

AZ Trailblazer

Another thought, perhaps out there too far.

Australians have reported the "air catching fire" in front of the main fire. At and above tree top as I recall.

I always wondered if that could be explained potentially by a collapsing column or ice cap pushing down heat also?

Maybe not. But I do believe those fire fighters saw something worth researching.

==========

Do we have any Ozzies on this thread?

Anyone know of any science or writings on this type of fire behavior?

Fuels guy

Hotlist thread

NMAirBear,

Thanks for your post. You bring up a very important point about the trees identified for removal. We brief our fallers on this each year. They all know they have the right to refuse an assignment, or to suggest an alternative approach or action. But I want to suggest that it’s not as simple as “Just don’t do it.”

There have been a number of times fallers have called me to alert me to incidents where they have refused a specific hazard tree assignment. It was gut wrenching for them because the classic agency response is “We’ll get someone else to go cut it.” And you know who they send? I’ll let you fill in the blank. Our fallers voice their concern over this. They care about younger, less experienced agency sawyers. They don’t want to see them hurt. And if it means fallers taking a risk to keep the younger guys out of harm's way, they’ll do it. They do it. And they always will do it.

I’m going to say here what few others will say…That “We’ll just send somebody else in to cut it” attitude gets young sawyers killed. If a seasoned faller refuses a hazard tree assignment, is a less seasoned agency sawyer better able to handle it? Do the bean counters think this is better ROI than letting a tree burn and having a “resource” sit idle? How about ordering Faller Modules on IA when it is clear a fire is a timber heavy incident, and not relying on A & B sawyers on engine and hand crews? And, last, just like you say NMAirBear, some trees should just be left alone and watched from a distance. A faller’s wisdom is not something to be scoffed at, especially an old faller who is still alive.

Shari Downhill

ROI = Return on Investment

Put on your schedule for tonight to watch the Tonight Show

20 U.S. Forest Service - Angeles National Forest firefighters will appear with
Conan O'Brien, Friday, September 18 at 11:30 p.m.

MDH

EA:

Have you viewed or gone through the SIM LIMB exercise?
(www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/council/newsletters/may06/may06.pdf )

Two thoughts:

An unobstructed object falling 50 feet takes less than two seconds to hit and is going 40 mph.

Remember the reaction time drill when driving and following too close?
Take that to this discussion with the addition of communication.

1) Lookout realizes danger,
2) Lookout communicates,
3) Sawyer receives communication - hearing in this case,
4) Sawyer typically looks up to see where to escape, (or has to process something like GO RIGHT)
5) Sawyer then starts moving.
6) Time for the sawyer to move out of danger.

(Assuming 0.25 seconds for each step, everyone is fine.)

Not to be lost in this is that distances less than 50 feet involves less escape time but still holds fatality level risk.
Also, distances greater than 50 feet have a marginally smaller increase in time for object to reach the ground until terminal velocity is reached.

Using lookouts sounds like a safe no brainer.
It is not, in the world of felling.

What is smart is:
a) Saying no,
b) Making all your cuts from the non-danger side if there is one and that is possible,
c) Finding an alternate method of removing the tree, moving the line etc.

===========

(I understand air resistance and that all limb/top drops are not created equal.)

Fuels Guy

Hey All,

In past years rather sporadically we've created a calendar featuring wildland flames, crews, and having a "fire family" feel. They have been great because of your photos. Some of you have a fine artistic eye while others have been in the right place at the right time. Doing the calendar been lots of work for me and OA on top of everything else we do. This year we want to partner with Jim Felix at the Supply Cache to support the 2010 Calendar to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

If you have any photos you'd like to share to aid in that purpose, please send them in at highest resolution available. It would be good to have the fire name, the location and which agency or company or VFD you work for. Of course you'll get the photo credit.

We need photos to make it work. Calling for great photos, flames bigger, all the better! If you're willing for us to post the photos as part of the photo collection here or as a wallpaper, please let me know that too.

Thanks, Ab.

Hey EA,

How about a 30+ foot long piece of paracord with a very experienced spotter on one end looking up at all times and the sawyer's elbow on the other end. Any pull by the spotter and the sawyer is out of there.....

I personally watched this save somebody's life at least twice and we all instead ended up just laughing over a cold brew at the end of the day.

Back to the Basics.

Ab,

I was wondering if you could post this. Chad has a lot of friends scattered around that may not have
heard about his ongoing battle with brain cancer. He was able to kick it once but is back in an up and
down battle right now. He has applied for disability retirement but it has not been processed at this point.

DBM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Howard Chad has been approved as a Voluntary Leave Transfer Program recipient, and is in need of donated annual leave.

Chad was diagnosed with a brain tumor in December of 2006. After undergoing treatments throughout 2007, Chad returned to Krassel Helltack for the 2008 season. His tumor has now returned and he has started additional treatments. Chad is still in need of annual leave donations.

If you are interested in donating annual leave:

1. Complete the
2. Ensure you complete the certification block "signature of donor" and use your electronic signature: /s/Smokey Bear
3. Click on file/save as, save the form locally to your computer
4. Reply with History DO NOT "REPLY TO ALL"
5. Attach the AD1043 to your email for processing

If you would like to view a complete list of all of our recipients, please navigate to:

* http://fsweb.hcm.fs.fed.us/leave/leave.php#LeaveTransfer (Forest Service Intranet site)

And click on: Recipients by Organization

Thanks again in advance~

Hey, I check out the site all the time.
I've been a firefighter for a few years -- I've heard many stories from many friends about near misses regarding tree falling. In almost every case, the rest of the crew, or at least a few coworkers were watching while the tree top broke, or a branch broke off, etc. I think all the training in the world doesn't seem to change this. People are going to watch the saw at crucial times, and even the best trained sawyer might be looking down when the widowmaker comes down. Any thoughts on really cheap, simple warning systems? My thought is an earplug with a remote controlled speaker that emits one note... Maybe could be marginally expensive, but even one or two per crew could really make a difference... any thoughts?

EA

Added it. Ab

Hotlist thread

From my sister - another shot of the smoke-----

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNbbFZt4-8A

RM

In terms of wildfire, this all-hazard stuff is something to keep an eye on. We haven't been super involved with all-hazard world overall the last few years, but that could change any minute. We had quite a run there doing hurricanes, space shuttle pickup, terrorism, floods, tornadoes, and animal epidemics for a while. Soon it could be back in full force; we'll be expected to help, and we need to make sure we're safe dHalloing it and as ready for it as we can be.

Be safe out there; could be a rough fall -

-Watcher

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/fed/2009_allhazard_incident_managem.htm

Just a heads up that 20 U.S. Forest Service - Angeles National Forest firefighters will appear on the Tonight Show
on NBC with Conan O'Brien, Friday, September 18 at 11:30 p.m.

Kudos to Stanton Florea on the Angeles NF for coordinating this...

JCH

Feds say firefighter helicopter that crashed was pushing weight limit

www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/feds_say_helicopter_that_crash.html

www.fs.fed.us/raws/photos/bircher/

This occurred in 2000. Ab.

Tory Henderson, Chair USFS FAM, NIFC 3833 S. Development Ave. Boise, ID 83705 208.387.5348 thenderson@ nospam fs.fed.us	Kent Evans, R-8 Line Officer Representative District Ranger, Talladega National Forest 1001 North Street Talladega, Alabama 35160 256.362.2909 x 121 kevans@ nospam fs.fed.us
Kevin Erickson, R-1 1800 Strand Avenue Missoula, MT 59801 406.829.7084 kerickson@ nospam fs.fed.us	Patti Hirami, R-9 Regional Fire Directors Representative 626 East Wisconsin Milwaukee, WI 53202 414.297.1280 phirami@ nospam fs.fed.us
Todd Lerke, R-3 Engine Operators Committee 11776 Hwy 337 Tijeras NM 87059 505.281.3304 x216 jtlerke@ nospam fs.fed.us	Chris Peterson, R-9 Forest FMO Representative 50 Highway 145 South Harrisburg, IL 62946 618.253.1032 capeterson@nospam fs.fed.us
Mike Arias, R-5 Fleet Representative/Fleet BPR Liaison 1323 Club Drive Vallejo, CA 94592 707.562.8847 marias@ nospam fs.fed.us	Dave Haston, SDTDC Advisor 444 E. Bonita Ave. San Dimas, CA 91773 909.599.1267 x294 dhaston@ nospam fs.fed.us
Linda Keydeniers, R-5 Fleet Representative 444 E. Bonita Ave San Dimas, CA 91773 909.599.1267 x267 lkeydeniers@ nospam fs.fed.us	Todd Lerke, R-3 Engine Operators Committee 11776 Hwy 337 Tijeras NM 87059 505.281.3304 x216 jtlerke@ nospam fs.fed.us

TC

"Re. the Brandon Riza time lapse obs by Fuels Guy, I'm still not sure how to interpret all that. I see what you are
referrring to, but it's also important to note that wind speed generally increases with altitude, so the higher the
column, the faster any movement of those cloud features will be, whether it is just being whisked away horizontally
or pulsating back down. IMO we need to have a plane or helicopter view of the building column from an altitude at
or above the column top, far enough away to see the whole storm and long enough to capture an entire convective
turret's life. (That's a dream of mine.)"

Concur that it is not conclusive but looks interesting. The pic angle is from the rear and while coincidences do occur we need a time synced view from another angle.

Does anyone know of photos taken from a right angle - at a distance - of the Station Fire on August 29th?
While we may not see any collapse lower down, we should be able to see the ice cap if the photographer is far enough out.
This could show wind on the cap that would verify Mike's thoughts on wind at that level blowing the top off. (Think of an anvil top with the blown streak of cloud heading downwind at its highest .)
If photos showing that lacking it may be still worth following this thought - ice cap collapse.... one potential sponsor of column collapse.

Another thought:
If it isn't written down, it didn't happen. (Anybody hear a parent, supervisor or teacher with that?)
In this case it needs to make it into scientific literature, with peer review for us to gain a correct understanding. I'm a war story type myself but that doesn't cut it with these modern era mega fires does it?

{I don't know but I suspect that MikeF could be a contributing author on a paper.}

To give this momentum among people that fund things and provide some initial areas of inquiry we need pics.
Look what the Riza video has started!

Mostly we need video from multiple angles.
Nobody needs to put themselves in danger. For now at a distance could get funding started.
No-one needs to detract from their job on the fireline by becoming a self appointed photographer.
BUT; pictures are powerful.

It does seem that we have failed here in continued knowledge gain for the fire fighters benefit.

Fuels Guy

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=55190

Read the thread, very interesting discussion of firefighters that were on the ground describing what they saw at ground level. Better yet, sign up and join the collaboration.

Ab.

Red Lake #7 (ON), May 1986
Yellowstone 1988, “Black Saturday”
Yellowstone 1988, 6 Sep (IR loop goes thru 7 Sep)
Yellowstone 1988, 7 Sep
Yellowstone 1988, 9 Sep
MB/SK, 21 July 1989
Circle Fire (AK), 6 July 1990
Baie Comeau (QB), 19 June 1991
Foothills Fire (ID), 21 August 1992 (CH3CN)
“First” pyroCb, BC 4 July 1998 (Lindsey and Fromm, GRL, 2008)
Norman Wells (NT), 3 August 1998
SK Fires, 10-11 Aug 1998
AK/YK, 19-21 June 1999
Chisholm (AB), 28 May 2001
House River Fire (AB), 26 May 2002
House River Fire (AB), 31 May 2002
Rockies, 3 June 2002
California, 5 June 2002
Missionary Ridge and Hayman, 17 June 2002
Hayman I, 9 June 2002
Hayman II, 18 June 2002
Rodeo-Chediski, 19 June 2002 (no deep pyroCb but some cool tops)
Million (CO), 19 June 2002 (classic pyroCb)
Rodeo-Chediski puffs, 20 June 2002
Saskatchewan pyroCb, 21 June 2002
Meadow pyroCb, 24 June 2002.
Saskatchewan fires, 25 June 2002
CRYSTAL-FACE (SK), 27 June 2002
Mustang (UT), 1 July 2002
Burn Canyon (CO), 13 July 2002
Winter (Oregon), 15 July 2002
McNally (CA), 22 July 2002
Florence pyrobubble, 28 July 2002
Mt. Zirkel (CO), 17-18 Aug 2002
Cedar (CA), 28 October 2003
Derby Fire (MT) 29-31 Aug 2006
Tripod and Tatoosh Complex (WA/BC) 3-4 Sep 2006
Ham Lake (MN/ON) 10 May 2007
Milford Flat (UT), 7 July 2007
Trigo (NM), 30 Apr 2008
Chaiten Volcano (Chile), 6 May 2008
Brookmere (BC), 2 Aug 2009
Station Fire (CA), 2 Sep 2009

Rich Z suggested I contact you. I need a photo of wildfire/urban interface in Northern Nevada in the
Battle Mountain District. Do you have anything?

Thank you,

SZ

Readers, does anyone remember sending in anything? I'll look too. Might check photo description pages and search on Nevada or NV. Thanks, Ab.

When I try the link, it does not go to the proper page. If anyone knows who the members are for this group, please let us know.

Letterman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: September 14, 2009
Subject: National Fire Engine Standardization Update
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director

The Senior Fire Leadership Group accepted recommendations presented by the Fire Vehicle Standardization Committee (FVSC) chartered by Fire and Aviation Management (FAM) in 2008 to standardize fire engines across the Agency. The FVSC facilitated input from the field via a data call to identify fire engine types now being used and to determine engine specifications to meet Agency needs. A memo dated January 30, 2009, relayed this information as well as the Chief’s recent decision on paint and markings as recommended through the Fleet Management Business Process Reengineering (BPR).

Subsequently, the FVSC has been developing the complete specifications (including marking standards) for each model that is an accepted new standard. As these specifications have been developed, some minor changes have been made based on input from subject matter experts as well as changes in the industry. It is accepted that slight adjustments may occasionally be made based upon changes in industry, technology, and field input. The specifications are being posted to the FAM web site for use by the Regions and shall be used for any new fire engine purchases. The specifications can be found at: www.fs.fed.us/fire/equipment/engine-models/models.html.

Over the past several months some regions and individual units have begun ordering engines under standard replacement cycles. The FVSC has been and will continue to be engaged with fleet managers, subject matter experts or inspectors if any questions arise concerning the standard specifications. There will be open competition -- all engines will be built by fire apparatus manufacturers and in no case shall apparatus be built by a Forest Service unit (except for installing a manufactured Type 7 slip-on unit onto a chassis). Regional fire equipment committees should actively engage with their respective regional fleet managers throughout the procurement process to ensure fire and aviation needs will be met.

The FVSC is developing a deviation process for use if a unit determines there is a substantiated need for specific and minor allowances. In the interim, the deviation shall be substantiated with the regional fleet manager, forest unit, and fire management officer to ensure the national specifications are being followed. If it is determined that the forest seeks to deviate from the established standard, the request for deviation and justification should be submitted to the regional fleet manager. The regional fleet manager will deliver the deviation request with substantiation to the FVSC. The purpose is to ensure the national standard is meeting the needs of the Agency and to possibly capture design criteria that could be implemented agency-wide. Committee evaluation is critical to ensure the deviation will not unintentionally create other problems in the development of the apparatus or potential training and safety concerns.

It is understood that the procurement process for engines may change based on the final decisions from the Fleet Management BPR. It is desired that all engine specifications and additional fire fleet standardization will be completed by that time.

Please contact the committee lead, Tory Henderson, FAM Fire Equipment Branch Chief, at (208) 387-5348 or thenderson@fs.fed.us with any questions.

/s/ Robin L. Thompson (for)
JAMES E. HUBBARD
Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry

/s/ Joel D. Holtrop
JOEL D. HOLTROP
Deputy Chief, National Forest System

cc: Rebecca A Hutchins
Tory Henderson

One I like for the stragglers in the morning.

"If you're early, you're on time. If you're on time, you're late. If you're late, don't bother showing up at all."
-Vince Lombardi

Brian

Thanks, I put it on the Quotes to live by page. Ab.

Old Sawyer

I cross posted this on the hotlist thread... Ab.

A column will collapse when it cools or hits a layer in the atmosphere that halts ventilation.

I'm concerned about where the embers go. While the rising column appears puffy on the outside, the rising air inside is rotating counterclockwise as a low pressure.

Once it has nowhere to vent it does that nuke/mushroom and ejects the heavier embers into clear air currents to be carried away in new directions. I'm wondering if the heavier embers collect at the center of the column like stirring sugar into tea or a tornado full of dirt and debris. Or, if they get flung out on the way up like the debris we see flying around in videos of a tornado.

I compare it to the pattern of the sparks we watch in a campfire at night.

I believe the mushroom at the top is where most embers exit the column and float down with all the aerodynamics of a falling leaf. And falling from that altitude they have the potential to travel a long way.

William Riggles

I will say that much of the problem has been brought upon us by our own actions (the FS) by years of clear cutting with disregard to the environmental impacts to the landscape and the effects to flora & fauna. That being said we (the FS) have changed throughout the years and much of our proposals are based on science and research. We have been employing scientists for years and working on experimental forests to back up the theory that fuels manipulation works. Case in point the Blacks Mountain experimental forest on the Lassen NF where the Cone Fire burned through a number of years back, I saw with my own eyes where the fire went from stand replacement (no treatments) to a moderate ground fire (repeated prescribed fire treatments), allowing us a safe place to pick up the fire.

I don't know how to change the mind of someone who will not listen to proven science and has no trust in anything we (the FS) do. But you being outside the agency may have better luck with the politicians and special interest groups. It sounds to me that you do have a clear understanding of the problems we face. I am so tired of going to funerals and losing good friend needlessly. So if you are planning on moving forward with proposing a bill that brings land management decisions back to land managers acting on science and what is best for the landscape instead of letting the special interest groups steer all the decisions, then I will support you 100%. If you need scientific journals about studies that have been done such as the one mentioned above, feel free to contact me; you can get my name and email address from ab.

Again my deepest sympathies go out to you and your family.

From a concerned fire practitioner.

Shari, I'm thankful your guy is OK. Ab.

Ab.

I’m going to wonder out loud about collapsing columns:

I had the fortune to attend a 30-mile lessons learned style review, by the FBA from Okanogan country. He described a collapsing column of a different kind then we normally talk about. When he interviewed on-site several of the survivors of the 30-mile fire at the entrapment location. The FBAN said they described a scenario like the Montana Elk River photo. It was really hot as it went up the hill across the river. Then it lost energy and 'fell' back down toward them. That was what caused the spotting across the road and the entrapment, the heat coming back down the hill. In an earlier post on this thread Mellie references this event with a similar description.
- - - - - - - - - -

I remember reading a paper by Haines et al from the early 1990’s as I recall. THE Donald Haines described different types of Plume Dominated fires. The worst one was what he called a 1-A or A-1 where the fire was fed by wind at the ground level but the vertical component needed for a plume was available at mid and high levels.
It was the worst of both worlds – wind and plume combined.

Perhaps with enough energy there doesn’t need to be as perfect a mid and upper level atmosphere. I’m sure many of you have seen this and if you look at the time lapse by Mr. Brandon Riza. I think this is what is happening here, at least at times in the film.
- - - - - - - - - -

It occurs that these columns on the 29th could be collapsing due to their placement out in front of any support by the main fire. Would this create just downdrafts like a T-cell or include heat being pushed down also like the description of the 30-mile fire?
{Is anyone aware of any descriptions of T-cell ice caps collapsing?
Not the virga associated downbursts.}

For the good of the order:
Is it possible that Camp 16 faced collapsing columns in front of the main fire that contributed to not understood net rates of spread and energy release?
- - - - - - - - - -

Station Fire:
Fuel driven, (per Doug Campbell discussion) that is combined with
wind driven to create an also
plume fire with
collapsing ice caps?
Any thoughts?

Fuels Guy

Hotlist thread on this.

Ab -

It was certainly a tragedy with the accident taking Ted and Arnie. I could not agree more with Lori and will contact my California Senators (neither of which have the intelligence of a Bic Pen). I will also contact my Congressman, Geo. Radanovich. I worked many years in and around the Angeles (both for the Forest Service and LA Co Fire) and the Station fire was truly one for the record books. If the fuel bed had been broken up into a mosaic with buffers around homes, the problem of structure protection would be lessened a great deal. Also if the Forest Service were to have been allowed to burn specific drainages on rotating schedule you would not have had the miles and miles of unbroken fuel. Much of the fire area had not been burned since the 50's with the Woodwardia (also arson) and the Gale fires.

With this being said I believe it is akin to shoveling sand against the tide to get the environmental groups to back off. The Angeles, as well as the LP, have had more and more areas added to Wilderness. With the addition of the Magic Mountain and the Pleasant View Wilderness the firefighters have to rely more and more on the fewer and fewer available hand crews. As you know, mechanized equipment may be allowed if authorized, but it seems to be limited only to chain saws. It is unconscionable to put these crews into areas that could be safely worked with dozers. Sure, much of the Wilderness areas are far to rough for anything but hand crews. I do know from personal experience though, that much of the Magic Mountain and Pleasant View Ridge areas are good cat country. We did pre-attack lines there in the early 60's. I also know nothing could have stopped this fire once it got rolling.

I have been attending meetings on the Sierra Forest the past couple of years that concern the planning of making the forest healthier and more fire safe in the area between Cedar Valley and Fish Camp. Everything from the Pacific Fisher to the Spotted Owl to who knows what has to be considered. The plan has yet to be finalized and I would bet money what ever it is, it will be held up in court. This is not brush lands, it is forest. There is a husband and wife team that usually files suit on any and all Forest Service projects. I believe there are many would rather a forest burn to the ground before they would allow one logger into the area.

My 40 acres is adjacent to National Forest land. While my home is about 500 feet from FS land, I contacted them and told them I would clean up an additional 300 feet into the forest at my expense and to their standards. This would give me a good buffer as the FS land is the typical mess you see in the Sierra Nevada. Never had a response. I contacted the District Ranger to follow up and he said they were overwhelmed with work and my project was too small to even look at. Some how it got done, sure wish I knew who did it and that I was more sure of where my land ends and theirs begins. (this preceding part best eliminated as they would likely come after me if they thought I did it)

In closing (bet you never thought I would) there does need to be a change of how things are currently being done. The problem is immense, hopefully we will get a handle on it sooner than later.

Respectfully,

RM

Did I hear right-they're putting rocks that will cut glass in MREs? Sounds like a diamond to me.
I might switch from the Cracker Jacks.

AWB

Haw Haw. Ab.

The WFF was at the Station Fire and we left our motor home and WFF merchandise trailer in San Bernardino
in order to fly home. We are wondering if there is a qualified driver who might be looking for a way to get to
Boise, Idaho. No special license required, but to be safe the driver should have experience with a motor home
and trailer towing. It is a two day drive, and it would save the WFF the expenses of a one way plane ticket
down and the drive back.  Anyone interested can call the WFF at 208-336-2996. 

Thanks,

Guy

Ab.

Ice Capping? Column Collapse?

Seems to be the possibility of a research collaboration developing. Ab.

"No Bay FC" couldn't have said it better:

"Without the boots on the ground at the structure it would have matched all the other foundations in the neighborhood."

- It would have burned to the ground.

Don't know if you saw the house in Santa Barbara that was widely promoted in the media as a "Fire Safe" home prior
to the Jesusita Fire (May 09). CBS did a shelter in place segment on their news program about it. It caught fire due to
embers. The only reason it was not a complete loss was because "boots on the ground" were there to take care of the
situation. I believe Santa Barbara County Fire has information on all this if anyone wants to check it out.

jimhart

Dave,

I really do appreciate your input here to TheySaid but I prefer FIGHT FIRE AGGRESSIVELY BUT PROVIDE FOR SAFETY FIRST".

Having had that exact same line recently delivered to me regarding "we did not start this fire....dadadadadada " thrust into my ATGS headphones as we lost most of the left flank of a large fire, with major increased safety exposure to firefighters and the public on the ground, I just have to argue a bit with your sentiment.

That may be a good quote but has no real place in a firefighter's toolbox.

No disrespect meant to Mr. Gene Sadler or to you. We just all need to stick with the time-tested basics.

NMAirBear

Ab

Veterinarians are the protectors of the Nation's food supplies. I have known several who were in the both the military and civilian side of food inspection They were all Veterinarians or Veterinary technicians. Started with using them in the early days of meat inspection.

From the Food Safety and Inspection Service
" Did you know?

FSIS is the largest employer of veterinarians in the United States.

FSIS has partnered with the U.S. Public Health Service to provide Commissioned Corps veterinarians new opportunities in food safety programs.

What do FSIS Public Health Veterinarians do?
Our veterinarians supervise other public health professionals to ensure establishments under our jurisdiction comply with sanitation standards and properly implement systems that control hazards from entering the food supply.

Most but not all FSIS veterinarians work in meat and poultry plants. Veterinarians enforce federal meat and poultry inspection procedures:
During live animal transport and handling, including humane slaughter oversight;
Throughout the entire establishment, including processing operations;
During transportation and distribution of meat, poultry and egg products to markets and retail stores.
FSIS veterinarians advise academia, industry and professional groups on the effectiveness of food safety controls.

In addition to working in inspected establishments, veterinarians are employed as epidemiologists, pathologists, auditors, risk analysts and biosecurity experts. Veterinarians in FSIS are executive leaders, international liaisons, and program managers. FSIS veterinarians investigate outbreaks of foodborne illness in collaboration with local health departments and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). They assess State inspection programs; design new inspection systems and procedures; evaluate agency programs to assess their effectiveness in ensuring the safety of meat, poultry and egg products; create and deliver training and educational programs; and perform other challenging tasks that ultimately protect you and your family from foodborne illnesses."

More than you ever wanted to know.

ht

Thanks, Stryketeam and welcome. I added them to Airtankers 31 and Engines 25 photo pages. Ab.

"You didn't start the fire, it's not your fault. Just do the best you can to make it better."
-Gene Sadler

Those words of wisdom took a lot of pressure off of me. Gene was the FPO for the Tulare Unit when
I came to work in 1973. He was a great guy.

Dave

Thanks, Dave and welcome. I put it on the Quotes to live by page. Ab.

I remember when we switched from C rations to MREs. I think it was the second year after we had went to them and one day when we came to work the entire building stunk (bad). We looked for the source for about a week unsuccessfully. Finally myself and one other firefighter made it our mission to find the source. After an hour and a half we were lead by our noses to the cupboard that we had the MREs stored in. There in a sealed MRE in a banded and sealed case of MREs we found the problem, a mouse that had been sealed in at the factory and had turned to jelly. That solved the stink problem, but I've had a hard time eating MREs every since. I just close my eyes.

Safety Angel

Ab, I saw you had some photos of the Memorial, here are some more.

And thanks for putting our Guys out there for firefighters around the globe to share in our Loss.
And THANKS FOR ALL YOU DO on Wildland Fire…

jpharris

You're welcome jp and to all who worked most closely with these firefighters, our condolences. Your loss is our loss. I added the photos.
LAC FFs Hall and Quinones: Memorial at Dodger Stadium (If there are other memorial photos, we'd be happy to include them. Ab.)

FYI, COMT

Please see the attached Safety Alert regarding a recently confirmed MRSA infection at a wildfire incident.

WASH YOUR HANDS.

Chris Kirk
U.S. Forest Service, WO-AQM
Incident Support Branch
National Interagency Fire Center

Hi COMT. I posted this Alert on Friday 9/11 on the Lessons Learned & Safety Zone Subforum of the hotlist. Here's the link to the Alert itself: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/safe/R5_MRSA_Safety_Alert_09.pdf   I'll try to remember to post parallel info here on theysaid for those that don't use the hotlist. We've had some busy days lately. Ab.

To all Forest Service Job Applicants,

Avue had updated their website to a "new look and feel" that they
are sure you will love!!

It is impossible to log into this exciting new web site unless you
have Internet Explorer 8 (or maybe 7, they were not to sure about that
on the phone). As USFS computers use the delightfully outdated
Explorer 6 we can no longer log in to Avue and work on our own
applications, let alone do any of the mandated outreach by providing
computer access and assistance with potential employees.

I just tried to help a young man with his application and left him
with a great impression of the agency after 33 minutes and 12 seconds
on the phone with Avue, most of it on hold. Looks like we lost another
potential employee!!

I am curious about what is the amount of time we are suppose to have for
our personal development (i.e. working on out applications). I have heard
an hour and I have heard a day. Anyone know for sure. Maybe I can
telecommute this!!

Processed to Death

Ab,

Why is a "Senior Veterinarian" assigned by DOD to investigate issues with MREs?
Does that say something about the classification of MREs in the hierarchy of food?

Just curious.

Tim

This was in reference to the report that clarified there was no glass in the MRE. Ab.

Regarding embers causing ignitions, they do, and not just to structures. Ember cast produces spot and or potential spot fires that cause tactical and safety difficulties when involved in structure protection or perimeter control around structures. I don’t need a study to prove this, we see it every year. Research scientists and policy makers need to spend more time talking with the folks in the field to check their facts and conclusions with real life. Many years ago I attended a seminar on the Oakland Hills “Tunnel” Fire, the presenter a PHD showed a photo of a house interior of the burn and stated it was saved by defensible space and fire resistive construction. I had previously talked with the engine companies that had taken refuge at that house (because of defensible space and construction) and defended it as their safety zone. Without the boots on the ground at the structure it would have matched all the other foundations in the neighborhood.

No Bay FC

The Green Sheet is out. Linked in the hotlist Lessons Learned subforum above. Ab.

S.Woodward

The problem with Wildweb has been resolved, not even the dispatch centers could get into it this morning.
We're not sure what happened but it was above us. However, I can tell you, you didn't miss anything!

NVAC

"A fire is like being pregnant, either you have one or you don't"

a female dispatcher's response to a wishy-washy ground resource. (not on air of course) lol

norcal firegirl

Haw haw, put it on the Quotes to live by page. Ab.

Thanks to those sending in photos (CaptMack) and quotes from the memorial service yesterday. Ab.

From Wildman, ABC 7 Video report:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7011837

Dispatch Centers

As a retired wildland FF from Nevada I have always enjoyed bringing up the Minden and Elko dispatch centers
to see what fire activity was happening. It seems the system now needs a username and password to access any
information. I was curious why the public no longer has access to the information and if there is any way to be
able to view the websites.

Thank you,
S. Woodward
Port Angeles, WA

If anyone has a few photos to share of the service for Ted Hall and Arnie Quinones at Dodger Stadium or the earlier memorial service I started a memorial page HERE. Please send them in. Thanks to Cary for the photos.

Please add comments about the service to the HOTLIST thread if you like. The Condolences thread is also open if anyone wishes to contribute. I heard the service today was very moving. Ab.

I posted some more of Cary's photos of the Station Fire on Handcrews 26 photo page. The Station Fire has been one huge angry fire.

I was a "C" faller. I cut a bit with contractors and on FSR crews. I live in big tree country. I've watched the big boys drop virgin, old growth Redwoods.
Because of my "C" status I became a falling boss. BTW-best job I ever had on wildland fire. Fallers are cowboys with chain saws, but I digress.
These "fellers" cut for a living. Before we quit logging, for the most part, in my homeland these men were sawmen. And they did their job very well.
At this point I believe a faller has to prove that he has cut for a commercial logging operative and knows which end of the saw does the work.
My suggestion to you is to become a FALB and get out there and watch the pros. Also-let them decide what they can do and what they want to walk away from.

Best---Lefthook

FSR=Forest Service Regular crews

From Captmack on the hotlist:

MEMORIAL SERV FOR STATION FIRE LOST FF's

I am down in LA for the Memorial. Watching the morning news, the memorial will be broadcast live at
1000 (pacific time) on the web at www.abc7.com They are expecting some 20,000 to attend.

Dear Abs ~

As Steve Uptegrove’s sister and for the rest of my family, I would like to thank all those who worked so hard to put on not just one, but two memorial services for my brother. I would like to name everyone, but I don’t know them all, so I will try to include all the ones that had such a large impact on me, and I truly hope that I don’t leave anyone out.

In John Day/Prairie City: I would like to thank every forest service employee that lined the highway in Prairie City as the procession drove by – then joined the procession back to John Day, every employee that created the path from the parking lot to the center of the Sports complex where the memorial was held . . . everyone that hauled all the chairs onto the field in over 100 degree weather, then hauled them off again . . . everyone that helped put the food and several ice chests of water together. . . all the speakers . . . the honor guard . . . the ones who placed Steve’s items at the front of the memorial . . . the ones who put the memorial announcement together and distributed it . . . the WFF for the bronze statue and counseling services . . . Bob Madden from Bend Fire Department and long time friend, for bringing the bell from Bend and ringing last bell . . . and last but certainly not least, Debbie Moeller, my rock and new friend who tirelessly held us all together.

After the overwhelming and emotional service in John Day I didn’t know how I was going to make it through another one, but I knew it was necessary.

In Bend: I would like to thank all the Forest Service employees that created the procession . . . the ones that set up all the chairs at Aspen Hall . . . the ones who set up Steve’s items for the memorial table . . . the honor guard . . . all the speakers . . . Cathy, Dave, Kelly, Gerald, Dan, Kate, and my rocks John Wells and Dan “Hawk” Boettner. I couldn’t have done this without you.

I know that Steve would be overwhelmed to say the least.

Lastly I would like to thank everyone that made comment on “They Said” about my brother. You truly captured the essence of Steve and your words helped me make it through this very difficult time. It was truly a pleasure to meet the “Wingman” in person. I am completely amazed at how my brother touched so many.

I would also like to give my condolences to those families who have lost loved ones to fires, recently and in the past. I am honored to be a “boot-leg” member of this family through my brother.

My gratitude goes out to you all and I hope that I didn’t forget anyone.

In gratitude

Linda Spittler

Very nice thank you, Linda. Ab.

Abs,

If people are looking for a reason to donate to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, here is one.

In two weeks I will taking 2 months of leave from the National Park Service and climbing into my 17' long x 21" wide sea kayak and paddling solo down the east coast towards Key West, Florida all in the name of the WFF. Yes, to some this might seem dumb or crazy, but if I can raise money for a organization that can bring a smile, ease a pain or solve a problem all the better. So, please take a moment a click this link (WFF) and donate to the penny paddle. Enter your gift amount and in the "Other Instructions" block enter "For the Penny Paddle". If you want to mail a check, click this link (PENNY PADDLE) and print out the Pledge Sheet and send it in. If you know others that don't read this board, then pass the links on. It would be great if we could raise $1000.00 over the weekend.

This is how I remember 9/11: I was on the Darby Fire and my wife called and proceed to tell me that the flight my in-laws were on the day before (9/10- so they were already in CA) was hijacked from Boston. The winter of 2001, I reenlisted into the military and was back in camo and breaking my word to my wife that I wouldn't be gone for more than 30 days. In 2005, I became a disabled veteran and was medically retired so I moved back to my hometown where it took me a year to be strong enough to run a mile. I never thought I would fight fire again, but in 2006 my current FMO took a chance with me and gave me a job as a Engine Captain. So, in a strange way I am doing this paddle because of 9/11. If it wasn't for that day, good or bad, my family wouldn't be as strong or understand why I am doing this paddle.

Signed,

Donate

Hey Ab,

Please pass the word about the Silent Auction that will be conducted during the Capital Area Wildfire and
Incident Management Academy in Bastrop, Texas. The auction begins October 20th and ends at 1700 on
October 31st. The monies raised will be given to the WFF in memory of Marc Mullinex. If anyone has any
items that they would like to donate to the auction they can email me at elk_firechief@ nospam yahoo.com . All
donations are appreciated. We want to honor Marc and help WFF in their endeavors to provide assistance
the wildland firefighting community.

Mary

Good luck with that. Ab.

Subject: Remembrance on September 11th

Today is a day to pause and remember.

We remember.....
.....the horrible discovery that a small group passed judgment on our way of life....
.....the massive, coordinated destruction this group caused by a simple a plan....
.....the hope that it wasn't real.....
.....the vigils....
.....the outrage.....

We remember...
.....the loss of so many people who went to work with every intent of coming home again....
.....the heroic efforts and drastic measures taken to spare those that could be saved....
.....the outpouring of American spirit to fund, shelter, support the survivors, their families and friends.....
.....the unification we felt as a country.....

In our emergency services world,
we remember.........exactly where we were....which incident....what we were doing....

Today, we remember.....
.....those who helped in New York and Washington DC and lost their lives in rendering aid....
.....those who helped and now have health issues because of this aid...
.....those that died in the service of our nation......

As national, state and local fire fighters, we all work in service of the same goal: to protect
our of nation. Today we can honor the memory of those who died in this service through a
moment of remembrance to thank them for their service given and our lessons learned.

Take a moment to thank your family and friends; they who watch us leave to contain the latest
incident. Our job takes us away from them routinely; and it's time that will never be recovered.
They practice the vigils, lend support and worry about each of us until we are home safe and sound.
They handle so much for us that lets us come home to an "anchor point". Let them know that
their worry and concerns for our safety are valid and appreciated. Let them know that you do
this type of work for more than the overtime, but rather because you are compelled and dedicated
to something that is more than a job.

I thank you for the leadership, teamwork and professionalism that you display in all endeavors.
Be well today, and always.

Jeanne Pincha-Tulley
Forest Fire Chief, Tahoe National Forest

Incident Commander,
California Interagency Incident Mgmt Team 3

Reminder for tomorrow:

From the Hotlist on memorial services for the 2 LAC firefighters that died:

LA County FD confirms that

the memorial service for Fire Captain Tedmund "Ted" Hall and Firefighter Specialist Arnaldo "Arnie" Quinones is scheduled for

1000 hours, Saturday, September 12th at
Dodger Stadium.

The following link is to LAC's website with more information ~
www.fire.lacounty.gov/

An article on where the Forest Service is spending its Wildfire Mitigation Funding,
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/11/forest-fire-aid-given-to-dc-parks/?source=newsletter_must-read-stories-today_headlines

"Even with forest fires raging out West, the U.S. Forest Service this week announced it will spend nearly $2.8 million in forest-fire-fighting money in Washington -- a city with no national forests and where the last major fire was probably lit by British troops in 1814. "

""As catastrophic wildfires continue to burn throughout the West, destroying people's homes and businesses in the process, funds that should be used to thin our overgrown forests and protect the public are being frivolously spent on park restoration," said Rep. Wally Herger, a California Republican whose district has seen some of the worst fires. "While the administration is spending millions of taxpayer dollars on improving picnic grounds, communities and citizens' lives tragically remain at risk." "

And There I Was

Come now. The three primary methods of heat transfer in order are:

• Convection (most heat transferred here)
• Radiation (your junk and fence theory or close set backs like the MHP last year in LA County that took out 500 plus)
• Conduction (got to be touching)

Never heard of “convection and conduction” is this some new coined phrase for the next Fire Rescue West show to impress on the 20 somethings? The last thing this debate needs is morphed terminology.

Embers falling miles away from structures can only be successfully battled by having fire resistive building materials, good clearance, and a fire professional standing by able to attack the small incipient fire with whatever size hose line is required to extinguish those embers that find the receptive fuel bed that will eventually consume the structure. That means garden hose to 2.5 inch attack line.

Ember attacks (especially those that are long distance) can be successfully attacked with garden hoses and back pumps with structures that have been prepared with defensible space ahead of time,

Since the Australian disaster this year the idea of using able bodied adult civilians to perform this role has been all but eliminated in the United States, so the option left is to have firefighters perform it. Stay and Defend is now Stay and Die unfortunately.

Beef up the Wildland agencies and restore all the cuts in engine companies and crews for the last 40 years to the Wildland agencies and beef up the local government resources so there are sufficient numbers to perform this role. Local government has shirked its responsibility to provide fire protection and tries to shift those costs and responsibilities to the state while they are the ones making the local land use decisions increasing development without regard to service levels needed.

To provide adequate firefighting forces for initial, extended, or major fire attack, this means higher taxes and the legislature doesn’t have it in them to hit the average Californian the price of a 12 pack of soda per year on their insurance to begin stable funding for fire protection in the state. That they don’t consider fire protection a basic responsibility of government either is demonstrated by status quo funding or worse yet, reductions that are the annual exercise.

Priorities needing adjustment are in order for sure.

The ordering system ROSS needs some serious overhaul so that resources are dispatched in a timely manner. This too will require additional staffing at dispatch centers so there are dedicated staff to input the requests into ROSS so the resources can get there to make a difference.

“Another CDF BC”

(This picture was taken at a makeshift memorial tent that was set up near the World Trade Center ground zero at the end of September 2001. This is just one of the FDNY companies that perished that day.)

Hey there Abs

I am still shocked when I meet a wildland firefighter who does not know about the Foundation and the 52 Club... but unfortunately they are still out there.
Educate by putting up informational posters in camp. Talk to the folks as they check in and demob if you are working in those positions. Put some money aside from each fire check to donate and encourage others to do the same.

As we know tomorrow is 9/11, a day that is burned into the memory of all folks in the USA.

It has become a day to remember those who lost their lives in the attacks and to give thanks to those who so bravely worked on this rescue mission and aftermath.

Many wildland folks were active participants in the aftermath of 9/11 (today) and continue to be "heroes" to the nation.

I cannot think of a better way to remember those who were lost on that day and since then, and the continuing work of our brothers and sisters, then by donating to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

They are showing this year again that they are an indispensable source of strength for both firefighters and their families when it matters most. Without them we would simply not be able to cope as well with the tragedies that face us.

JLP

Hey Ab,

I was hoping to get some feed back from other USFS "C" fallers in R 5. Are orders for fallers being placed for and filled by agency fallers (USFS) or has it gone totally to contract fallers??

I am a current "C" faller, and have for the past four years. I went thru the agency certification process with Doug Dent on the San Bernardino in 2006. On the forest I work on I am a district saw coordinator, and participated at the South Zone S-212C this past spring. In the time since being certed, I have never received an off forest assignment as a faller at any level, let alone at the "C" level. I can't recall the last time anyone on my forest went off as a faller. Is it just my forest/dispatch center that doesn't receive or fill these orders or are other qualified agency fallers in R-5 experiencing the same thing?? In my 19 seasons in fire, all with the FS, I have had the opportunity to observe both contract and agency fallers at work. There are good and bad on both sides, and I will leave it at that. I am just curious if other fed "C" fallers are being utilized and if not why? Thanks for providing a forum where I can get an honest answer to questions that no one on the local level can answer. Hope you all have a busy and safe fall.

FS Faller

from mitigator:

Jimhart,

Let’s discuss embers. What you don't know is in my fire work for some years, I have utilized Australian Ember Attack studies in my work with the wildlands and communities.

There are three main methods of heat transfer in wildland fires. And there are fire behaviors associated with this heat transfer.

CONVECTION: Firefighters are cautious upslope from a fire. The new codes require 15' off sets from the slope for single story and 30' off sets for two story homes as experience show us that flame duplicates the slope. We and homeowners need to be aware of intense convected heat, then the effects of radiation and the impacts on direct contact with an object or “Conduction”.

CONVECTION with CONDUCTION: Direct Contact with structures due to combustibles around the structures including "stuff” (junk, treasure, combustible things) and combustible vegetation (regardless of its nativity). This was evident in the Normal Heights fire in Mission Valley in 1985, 65 some homes. This occurred as structures including houses, fences and decks received direct flame contact, with flames running up hill across the surface parallel to the slope.

CONDUCTION: This was also observed in the Harris Fire where high winds causes the flame length to exceed height and "Sheeting” fire spread parallel to the surface, for example across a roadway or Defensible Space with direct contact or conduction. Cohen whom I respect, did studies of radiant heat with the flame height nearly straight up. A high velocity wind bending the flame will replicate the height and elongate the flame
length. Those studies would have had different results under this fire behavior.

Imagine that ranchette in the back country. There sits an older (the rest is here)

TEEX (Texas Engineering Extension Service) online training has a number of courses based around WMDs.
I believe there is a course called WMDs for First Responders which covers such things as poisonous gasses like
cyanide and gives details as to how to identify potential cases, symptoms of exposure, basic emergency
treatment and securing the scene.

The courses are free to take and have a lot of good awareness information

www.teex.com/

JLP

Still out there as an AD:

Bingo! You hit the nail square on the head... We (CA-LPF) firefighters as well as other R5 USFS firefighters fought for and received First Responder Operational (FRO) Training as part of our wildland fire curriculum years ago. This is now seen as "mission creep", to utilize a phrase I hate, by the USFS supposed leadership.

The hazmat situation on the ANF Station fire may or may not have been avoided if the individuals involved had participated in this training, but the fact is it did happen and the individuals were not properly trained for the environment they were exposed to. Now it is also painfully obvious after reading Vicki's post that the USFS "leadership" has also not been properly trained in hazmat or its aftermath. I cannot believe that the USFS is not taking better care of its own.

Vicki Minor ... you are an angel!!

All - Please support the Wildland Fire Fighter Foundation..

Ray Q... where are you? Current FS "Leadership" ... take note

Centralize the Fire Organization and get it out of the Forest Service!

--
Yactak
USFS (R)

I find the discussion regarding hazmat exposure troubling for this reason. We're likely to continue to depend on BIA, contract, casual and "regular" crews to round out the sheer numbers needed to fight wildfires on the ground. This certainly isn't a new problem -- we've been dealing with meth labs for what, 20 years? and old mining sites, roads and railroads allowing the transport of hazmat materials through wildlands and so forth.

But I don't remember seeing or hearing any hazmat training on the wildland side of things at this level. It is rolled into structural firefighting as a routine part of training from the start. I don't mean training in SCBA, removal, specialized firefighting chemicals, and so forth, but the basics such as recognizing the risk, reporting "up," securing the area to keep other crews from stumbling on the same problem, the initial first aid response and so forth.

Still Out There as an AD

Ab,

Our firefighter, <snip name> a 7 year veteran wildland firefighter with the White Mtn. Apache, is still hospitalized and was initially treated for respiratory arrest (not breathing) after her exposure to CYANIDE during on a night shift on the Station Fire. She was properly transported to the closest available facility for stabilization, but was denied transfer to a specialty hospital.

This is the 9^th day at this small hospital in Lancaster. It is not a hospital that has a toxicology department or even a toxicologist on staff. Regarding her care here: she received a sponge bath from a member of her crew after 2 days. I gave her a shower on the 5^th day and asked for the nurse to change her bed which hadn’t been done since she had arrived. Her family is very concerned about her. They were told yesterday that the hospital won’t release her until her blood test comes back on the 12^th of Sept. They were sent to San Diego and then on the Minnesota.

The other crew members were seen at this hospital in Lancaster and released. Two days later they were demobed home. In all cases, the home unit DOES NOT have a full service hospital specializing in cyanide poisoning or extended follow up care and observation, but rather is a Reservation facility located on Tribal lands in an adjacent state.

After returning to reservation, they were sent to Phoenix for a blood test. One crew member is pregnant; we are very concerned about her pregnancy!

Regarding cyanide poisoning: It is important to note the differences between Sodium Cyanide (used in very few past commercial mining operations) as compared to Hydrogen Cyanide (used in meth labs and a natural combustion byproduct of many natural fuels). Sodium Cyanide is not readily able to be converted to an aerosol, while hydrogen cyanide is. Hydrogen Cyanide is the poisoning culprit and identified in this case hours later by the HAZMAT team as being 48 ppm in the area the crew was working. Lethal concentrations are 100-500 ppm, and hydrogen cyanide has a LDL half life of one-hour. Tracing backwards for three hours, the probable exposure limit was around 300 ppm for the troops exposed.

Several ff/researchers have been working behind the scenes on this. We have been offered assistance from the Cyanide Poisoning Treatment Coalition (CPTC).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another note re <snip name - a firefighter who recently passed>: His family's bank accounts were frozen after his death, leaving his wife with no funds. Because of probate laws, banks freeze checking accounts of the deceased until the probate is settled, which can be very time consuming! So Lessons Learned: Spouses, take money out of the deceased joint checking account immediately, even before the death certificate being issued. (So that the spouses can continue to maintain the household.)

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

I googled the CPTC and found the link above. Ab.

Ab,

I wanted to know how i can donate $20.00 for the Tee-Shirt to help the families of the two LA County Firefighters
killed in the line of duty during the Station Fire, can you provide the link so i can donate. Please reply ASAP.

Respectfully,

Daniel S

Here's the direct link: http://troycase.com/

That link and additional info are on the hotlist: LACOFD Camp 16 Memorial Tshirt

PBS Presents Operation Wildfire
http://video.pbs.org/video/1242221322

Mitigator, you are making a lot of unfortunate assumptions here.

My original post had to do with pointing out how ridiculous it is for the USFS to be blamed for the Station Fire because it had not finished a few prescribed burn projects. I cited the California Chaparral Institute’s press release as the only attempt I know of where somebody tried to set the record straight. Good for them. Then all of a sudden the conversation got switched to a lawsuit. Not sure where you got the “you and your institute” perspective in referring to myself and another poster here. I never talked about embers or Keeley. Where did that come from?

But since you brought embers up, are you saying that embers are not the prime method of home ignition in many Southern California wildfires? Wow. I’m not sure what your experience level is, but it may be helpful to chat with those who’ve been on the front lines lately and read some of the current research. Here are just a few reports:

1. A study by the Institute for Business and Home Safety concluded in 2008 that, “Wind-blown embers, which can travel one mile or more, were the biggest threat to homes in the (2007 in SD County) Witch Creek Wildfire. There were few, if any, reports of homes burned as a result of direct contact with flames.”

2. The US Department of Commerce just finished another analysis of the Witch Creek Fire and found that about 60% of the houses in the community of Rancho Bernardo ignited due to embers and that the fire reached the community about an hour before the fire front due to embers travelling as far as 3 miles.

3. Blanchi and Leonard in Australia conducted an investigation of structure ignition mechanisms after the 2003 fire in the Duffy community of Canberra, Australia. The report identified that 50 % of the ignitions were from embers only, 35 % were from embers and radiant heat, while 10 % were from radiant heat alone.

4. I don’t have the references handy, but Jack Cohen with the USFS has made conclusions about embers similar to those in the reports above.

You say that “SD County has wisely placed over 72% of the second largest county in California under the protection of an alphabets soup of agencies and organizations.” Wisely? You’ve got to be kidding. I challenge you to talk to anyone in the fire business not connected with San Diego County government and ask them what they think about the alphabet soup approach to fire protection down there. Most of the folks I know in the fire business will say the County’s approach to fire protection is a joke.

You also seem to think that you can do anything to chaparral and it will just bounce back. Again, you might want to talk to folks on the SBNF and asked them how well the chaparral has “bounced” back from repeated fires on the Front Range. To ignore the data and think that the elimination of chaparral through type conversion via too many fires/excessive fuel treatments is not an issue really seems to be an exercise in denial.

A final thought. It might be helpful to avoid calling someone dishonest or arrogant if you ever want to have a constructive discussion with the intent on resolving differences in opinion. I don’t know if you are part of the San Diego County scene, but I suspect that approach has not worked there. I suggest you take a look at the collaborative efforts in the Santa Monica Mountains where natural fire regimes and fire hazard discussions between fire agencies, natural resource agencies, and community members have been successful in avoiding the contentiousness that has apparently occurred in San Diego County.

jimhart

Here are the refs. Ab.

1. Home and Business Study disastersafety.org/resource/resmgr/pdfs/wf_research.pdf
2. Commerce Dept. Study www2.bfrl.nist.gov/userpages/wmell/PUBLIC/TALKS_PAPERS/NIST_Witch_Fire_TN1635.pdf
3. Australia Study www.bushfirecrc.com/research/downloads/Bushfire-adelaide-2004-blanchi1.pdf

Abs:

This film of the Station Fire does a great job of showing that rarest of rare events in SoCal - The plume dominated fire.

Major kudos to the photographer, Brandon Riza.

www.brandonriza.com/Video/HTML/ZeroPercentContained.html

Tim Stubbs
Fire Behavior Analyst

Hey Abs,

Im looking for any info on employees who have undergone major knee repair and have been able to return to full duty.
This would include partial knee replacements or full replacement also if any have had hardware from DePuy installed
on knees. I have a City Firefighter who needs this info so his agency wont retire him. He is looking for about ten cases,
all he needs is the position held at time of injury agency working for and ability to return to full duty. I gave him my info
all we need is nine more.

It would be great to see this guy get back to work rather than get a gold watch.

Abs can you help get this back to me?

Thanks again Guys and Gals, stay safe!

Mike Calkins

Will pass messages on. Ab.

SoCal FF

We know a White Mountain Apache crew was exposed to cyanide on the Station Fire. One firefighter remains in the local hospital on oxygen, another close by. The majority of the crew was sent home to R3. Hopefully the patient will get moved to a hospital where there is greater experience in dealing with HAZMAT exposure. Hopefully the crewmembers that went home will also be transported to a large medical facility that specializes in HAZMAT and get checked out. They may have traveled home before cyanide poisoning symptoms developed.

There are people working on this, including Vicki Minor from the WFF, Casey Judd from the FWFSA and firefighters and supporters in socal. All are doing their best to achieve good outcomes. Remember, the firefighting community went through this process of determining the best treatment  practices and guidelines relating to burn and lung injuries from breathing hot gases. Firefighters who are burned are now routinely sent to burn centers to get checked from the inside out and treated.

We're in a similar place now with HAZMAT exposure. There's long been some HAZMAT risk on our public lands stemming from gold rush days, but now in addition, meth labs and other dangerous and illegal operations have moved into forests.

Please send thoughts/prayers for healing to our injured firefighters. They're surrounded by family, thanks to your donations to the WFF. Ab.

Just a reminder that R-5 Fire Hire cutoff for apps is coming up for the next hiring round. Apps have to be in by Sept. 28th to be considered. have your references send in reference check forms ahead of time, to save time later. There are lots of GS-6 up to GS-9 vacancies in the region, all over the state.

A good Hotlist thread, with lots of good info on what should be in a App to help you get hired, is here:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=9736

Good luck all, and look forward to seeing all those good apps next month...

-MJ

AFTER THE THREAT
Two Southern California towns try to get back to work after fire threat
Many firms in La Cañada Flintridge and Tujunga find business is slow to recover.

www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-firebiz7-2009sep07,0,232194.story

Caption that goes with a nice cheerleader photo: Renee Sanchez and forest firefighter Jose Franco work
to raise money along Foothill Boulevard in La Cañada Flintridge for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

...In another sign of community solidarity a few stoplights down, cheerleaders from La Cañada High School joined
local firefighters on the sidewalk, hoping to collect money for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which assists
injured firefighters and their families.

Leo,

I personally know quite a few that know the forest well that are assigned to the fire. Some are currently
employed and one even lost their station while supporting the team operations. My old Division Chief hit
me up one morning for my keys so he could get around and help out the Div Supts that don't know jack
about So. Cal fire. Especially the Angeles. One of the Branch directors is an ex F.S. employee working
on the Station Fire. He knows the area quite well. I am sure you are right; some may have not been
contacted, but others have been. We all have been working together to give it a good fight. It has been
tough. It is hard to fight a fire when it gets into alignment.

Hotshots and Helicopters

jimhart is a moniker. He is not the Clairemont resident James B. Hart that ran (is running?) for the Mayor of LaJolla.

Ab.

jimhart and FC180,

Nonsense as to your misrepresentation of vegetation management. The plan absolutely did not articulate 'see brush eliminate it'. This is a foolish notion and worse, untrue. Chaparral is part of this eco-system. Not only could you not eliminate it, but why would you want to? Range conversion experiments in chaparral repeatedly failed as the chaparral returned, displacing grasslands.

Removing thousands of feet of vegetation maintenance has not been proposed. Your view of embers being the "prime" source of ignition has not satisfactorily passed the smell test, as the methods of heat transfer do remain evident at each site dependant upon slope, topography and wind effects. While structures fall to ember attack, others fall to radiant heat from adjoining combustibles and still others from direct contact from point source ignitions onto the structure. As real fire professionals saw in 2003 and 2007, "structures that never should have been built there" (quoting you), actually survived. These included in canyons, on canyon rims, in draws and drainages.

SD County has wisely placed over 72% of the second largest county in California under the protection of an alphabets soup of agencies and organizations. You are proposing that we not do those vegetation treatments that enable firefighter success on the 90th percentile fire? Or give the firefighters the opportunity to save structures and lives, both their own and the citizens that they serve? We are in the most dangerous time for fire (Sept, Oct, Nov) in San Diego County, and you and your organization file suit to try to stop any efforts at fire mitigation and fuels management?

San Diego County has the greatest number of FireSafe Councils in the state. They need our support to protect their communities. With canyons that interconnect from the back country to the sea, blocking the ability to create zones to stop huge wildfires is arrogant and cruel. There have been consistent code upgrades with favorable results in structures that survive, and failing to ignore this is dishonest. And don't forget the emphasis on public education over the years by skilled educators.

You have thrown in Keeley and Zedler, but neglected to mention that Dr. Zedler states that this landscape is irretrievably changed. And who doesn't love San Diego out there? Awesome huh? Our long European influence combined with a long history of Master Gardeners have created a botanic wonderland! San Diego is a Novel Ecosystem that requires protection. Life, Property, Resources, those who fight the fires, require protection first. The fire fighting community can both protect the environment and its occupants, but not when we are blocked by those, like the Chaparral 'Institute' who do not understand the behavior of fire or the methods to control it for the greater good.

Mitigator

jimhart and FC180 are two people, both have posted here for many years. Ab.

Another Hunter, not the original,

The problem is that San Diego County has consistently ignored fire professionals and fire scientists within the region to do the right thing, so I sincerely doubt they can be trusted to conduct rational fuel management work. That’s why they need oversight. The Board of Supervisors passed a motion that all vegetation management projects would go through proper environmental review, yet when the first project was funded they exempted the project from review. Frankly, it is all about the money…and not their money, but the federal government’s.

The basic problem down there is that the County refuses to financially support a fire department so they depend on municipalities and the USFS to pick up the slack. CalFire does what it can, but there just aren’t enough stations. SD City Fire and other city fire departments are constantly running first response calls into county areas. There’s even a “gentleman’s” agreement that the cities won’t charge the county for their services. That’s just ridiculous. That was one of Chief Bowman’s biggest frustrations (the former chief of SD City Fire). SD County is arguably one of the fire hazardous areas, yet the county government only spends $10-15 million a year on fire protection. Orange County spends more than $200 million and it is 20% the size of SD County (and yes, a huge portion of this IS county money from property tax receipts, not contract dollars). And about those Prop 172 public safety funds SD County gets? All to the sheriff and the DA. Nothing to fire. Fire protection shouldn’t be funded by bake sales, but that’s basically the perspective in SD County.

But to make it look like they are doing something, the county thirsts for federal dollars to do fuel treatments which they continually hype, conveniently forgetting to say that, oh by the way, we didn’t pay for them, but the feds did. And when they are able to get non-fuel treatment money, what do they do? They waste it on leasing two super scooper aircraft for a few months instead of what the fire service recommended, an Ericson helicopter. But then those super scoopers sure make great front page photos. There is a pattern here.

I am all for fuel treatments, but they have to be strategic and subject to discussion by people outside the county’s department of land planning. Yep, the couple guys in charge of fire down there are under the planning department’s control. Is there a conflict of interest here? How about putting fire where it belongs, in the Office of Emergency Services? It won’t happen with the current political situation.

I can’t speak to the lawsuit, but does it make sense to spend millions of dollars on cutting down trees far from roads and homes when it could be better spent creating defensible space around homes and communities, firefighter safety zones, and retrofitting flammable houses?

And while I am on a roll here, the USFS did a remarkable job thinning the forest around the Lake Arrowhead community that got hammered in the ’07 Grass Valley Fire. The treatments helped during suppression a number of ways, but nearly 100 homes were still lost. You know why. Private citizens dropped the ball and failed to make their yards and homes fire safe. A similar thing happened on the Angora Fire in Tahoe. But of course, the Forest Service got blamed for that one too.

What blows my mind is after all the fires in SD County, the citizens aren’t marching in the street demanding an adequately funded fire protection system.

jimhart

THANK YOU COMMUNITY!!!!

Ab.

Burk (WFF) just called. He needs someone to go to the Sacramento Airport and rent a car with their credit card ($400) for a family that just flew in. They need to drive to the hospital to join their firefighter kid who is having medical problems. The WFF will reimburse you tomorrow.

The car company won't let Burk take care of it on his credit card from a distance. (He's at the Station Fire, Angeles NF.)

If you are near the Sacramento Airport and are willing to do this right now, please call him. (208-8xx-xxxx)

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

Ab.

The San Diego County "brush treatment plan" was basically see- brush-eliminate- it. Clearances of 1000's of feet-not scientific at all, in fact ignoring the major ignition source from the '07 and '03 fires-blowing embers that can travel 1000's of feet. Not a wise plan and deserving to be sued, and I am not shouting anyone down.

From the Chaparral Institute website:

Why we are filing a lawsuit:

The Institute strongly supports the use of $7 million to create 100 feet of defensible space around homes. However, removing trees deemed unhealthy and damaging habitat nearly two football field lengths away from structures and roads is a waste of taxpayer money. In addition:

1. The project deflects attention away from what needs to be done - assisting residents to retrofit their homes and reducing hazardous fuels directly next to communities. This issue was highlighted in a new study released June 6, 2009 (Schoennagel et al. 2009) that federal programs intended to reduce wildfire risks in the West have been largely ineffective because fuel-reduction efforts seldom hit areas near homes and businesses. Here's the news story.

2. San Diego County is violating state law by denying citizens the right to provide input on a tax-payer supported project that will directly impact their lives.

3. The project may lead to the spread of weedy, flashy fuels across the landscape, increasing the risk of fires and unnecessarily damaging natural resources.

4. The project may not use the best available knowledge to make the right decisions about how to strategically save lives and homes during the next wildfire.

5. The project may lead to the spread of the gold-spotted oak beetle that is killing thousands of oak trees in the region.

The only way to help insure that the project's potentially negative consequences are avoided is to require the county to conduct a full environmental review as required by CEQA.

FC180

Jimhart:

The California Chaparral Institute is currently suing the County of San Diego to block the fuels treatment
plans that were developed by environmentally aware fire service experts. This attempt to delay critically needed
fuels work inhibits fire professionals from performing their duty to the public, and endangers their lives during fires.
If these kind of delays occurred in the Los Angeles community, which resulted in impacting the size of the Station
Fire, then that needs to be investigated and brought to the light of day, not drowned out by the shouts of those
responsible for the delays.

Another Hunter, not the original

CA-ANF-E5VL Station 9-7-2009 0553.kml

Strider

The WFF is at the Station Fire helping solve problems with Arizona firefighters exposed to HAZMAT, cyanide;
another young firefighter with chest pains (heart). It helps that our families can get to their loved ones and
arrangements for lodging and transport are made and paid for by someone who can shoulder that burden.

THANK  YOU  VICKI  AND  BURK!

Firefighters, if you haven't contributed to the 52 club, please do. Our Wildland Firefighter Foundation needs
our help so they can help.

If members of the public are reading, we welcome you to support our firefighters and their families by
donating to the Foundation that supports us in time of need.

Mellie

Ab,

Well we got hit again with the blame game. The Associated Press released an article last week by Michael Blood (9/2/09) in the midst of the Station Fire with the headline “Feds failed to clear brush in LA area.” The article built on this to leave the impression that had the USFS finished conducting their planned 1,700 acres of fuel treatments, the Station Fire could have been “avoided.” What a joke!

What is it about the media, the public, and unfortunately some political leaders, who jump on every chance to blame the fire service, environmental laws, or (pick a name or agency) for nearly every large fire? I don’t understand why the Forest Service didn’t kick its PR office into overdrive and do a better job defending itself. We should expect these kinds of accusations and be ready to respond to them the second they hit the street.

Here's an attempt by the California Chaparral Institute to set the record straight. News Release

jimhart

I have like many others been following the Station Fire on the ANF and talked with many retirees. I find it very interesting that there has not been any contact by either the forest, district or IC staffs with any retirees that know the country where this fire has been going. There is at least 3 retired Division Chiefs, several Battalion Chiefs and Deputy Chiefs that have not heard a peep from anyone trying to deal with this fire. During my tenure with the agency that was one of the first places we went to gain an insight as to what the fire could do and good places to cut it off. That sure didnt happen and look at the mess they are in now. Too bad as the ANF was a good place to work at onetime before the current FS arrived. My condolences to the families of the two LA County firefighters and those that lost their property and livelihoods to this fire.

Leo

Sent in by Strider:

From Inciweb:

If you have Google Earth, you can access today's Station Fire perimeter at CA-ANF-E5VL Station 9-5-2009 0625.kml

Steep and rugged terrain combined with continued warm seasonal temperatures to challenge firefighters on the eastern perimeter of the fire yesterday. Even as crews mopped up and reinforced existing line, they dealt with spotting northeast of Chilao, and significant runs north of Cogswell Dam.

Crews planned on strengthening line and reducing fuel in the Chilao area today. Those plans changed when fire spotted over a dozer line east of Alder Saddle and west of Winston Ridge. As of 5:00 p.m. yesterday the fire remained west of the pushing east from the saddle. The most active fire for the day burned in this area, generating smoke columns for many miles in all directions. As part of a predetermined contingency plan, the incident command opted to dispatch fire and law resources to the community of Juniper Hills. No evacuation were ordered, but it is requested that all residents, especially animal owners, prepare themselves for any possibility in the future.

The area north of Cogswell Dam also generated significant fire during the afternoon hours. Heated southern and western aspects created intensified fire behavior, with significant upslope runs through heavy fuels. Hotshot crews, inserted with the intent to directly attack the fire, pulled back to safety with the increase in activity.

www.fire.ca.gov/about/downloads/20LACRES.pdf

Dietrich stated tonight that the Station Fire just broke into the top 10 largest fires.

Inciweb was updated less than 30 min ago... 157,220 acres

Good Morning, Ab,

Could you please add this to the Crews Pic. This is our refresher in 2009 held in last week of February.
Then had about 96 Rookies in basic fire school First week in March. This program has about 60-70 CRWB (T)
go through the program each year nation wide.
Great learning experience, for all that have come, for both the overhead and the crews.

S

Thanks S, I put it on Handcrews 26 photo page. I did a bit of cropping to get closer images of the Cobras, the Black Eagles and the Scorpions. I hope I got them in the right order. (I put the mules above. Always was partial to those sure-footed wilderness-going creatures.) Ab.

Interesting info on these crews. I had the pleasure of working with the Black Eagles on the Betty Fire (INF-1961),
the Coyote Fire (LPF-1964) and again on a fire in Malibu (LAC-1970). Their liaison was a Cecil Salas (sp) and
they were top notch even back then. It was almost like old home week the second and third time as many of the
crew were the same on each fire.

Brings back memories. On the Betty Fire we went in from Lone Pine, via Tunnel Meadows, and came out three
weeks later in Quaking Aspen. Quite a trip thru the Sierra.

Rick

Just A little history about the Program,

10 Crews out of 18 were down on the Station Fire from day one.

Today after a 60-year, rich history on the Sequoia National Forest and Giant Sequoia National Monument, the Porterville Organized Crews are one dimension of our firefighting organization that now number over 400 personnel. These firefighters, many from Mexican and Mexican-American decent, are not “hot-shots,” but are a workforce available 12 months a year, nationwide for a variety of forest project work. Today’s local help is a disciplined organization that is divided into three sectors; Scorpions, Cobras, and Black Eagles, and include firefighters 18+ years of age, who pass all basic firefighting tests.

The history of the Organized Crews are colorful valley tales. In the early years, around 1925, when a fire started, forest rangers had to hire local help. The ranger had to find 30 individuals to go out into the "back woods," stake out and fight fire at $.71 an hour (1948), and work straight through a 24-36 hour shift. Usually the ranger worked with the local Sheriff's office to "gather up the boys." Over time as a result of this predictable firefighting work, the local men organized themselves to become the Porterville Organized Crews.

In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, fire crew bosses were chosen and then they selected their individual crews. When word went out a firefighting crew was being gathered, it wasn’t uncommon for 500 individuals to be waiting outside the Forest Service warehouse looking for work. Selections were made on a "first-come, first-served" basis. The men stood in line, grabbed the beltloop of the individual in front of them and waited. When they numbered 25 they were assigned to a crew boss, loaded up in open trucks with aluminum seats, or cattle trucks, and were carted off long distances to the fire. Many of these trips were a 17-hour drive up a dirt road. After reaching the fire, the crews then walked long distances to work on the fireline. A firefighter's personal gear was limited to a toothbrush, one pair of spare socks and a jacket.

In the 1970's, standardized firefighter training began. The Porterville Crews implemented discipline, developed their own dress code, bought high quality professional fire clothing and equipment.

Over the last 70 years, the biggest changes have focused on firefighter safety, training, and transportation. Today, the Organized Crew's work is varied and sought after nationwide regarding:

• wildland and prescribed fires,
• managed resource benefit fires in the wilderness,
• burned area rehabilitation,
• fuel reduction,
• timber stand improvement,
• fuel break installation,
• road clearing/brushing/chipping, and
• trail brushing and maintenance.

In the last four years, the program has mobilized crews for wildfires an average of 84 times each year; the majority were fourteen day assignments. Each year, on average, the crews earn $3.5 million in firefighting employee salaries, most in Tulare County. Five, of the 15-crews, are experienced with managed resource benefit fire management practices. These crews have extensive experience using wilderness spike camp tactics and utilization of pack trains on national forests. In 2003, the Organized Crews also participated in the Shuttle Recovery efforts which was a significant nationwide historical event etched in the minds of many Americans.

My warmest thanks go out to all the men who have worked and been a part of these Organized Crews during the past 60-years. Each of your lives are part of a rich and colorful American tapestry called the U.S. Forest Service.

SMS

Nice historical piece, SMS. I added it to the IMWTK page. Ab.

Ab,

Sept. 12 the 5th Annual Chili Days of Summer will be held at Riverside Park in Grants Pass, Oregon. We’re dedicating our day of cooking up Southern Oregon’s BEST chili to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and will be donating all proceeds from our competition to the WFF. We took fourth place last year and this year plan to take first with a special elk chili from my daughter’s first elk hunt last year. We’ll also be taking a collection for the WFF at our chili booth cosponsored by NWTF & Soul Canyon. Firefighters not ready for the summer to be over need to come down to the event and “Feel the Heat”… & show your support for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

Shari

Proceeds of the Into the Fire CD by The Black Irish Band benefit the WFF.

Look here:  http://www.blackirish.com/
Thanks Mark. Ab.

Thanks to firefighters:

It was a pleasure seeing and meeting the Cobras 5 crew at Honey's restaurant in Glendora, California. It is not surprising that the whole crew and supervisors were very courteous and humble when they received the thanks from me and my grandson. I took photos of the crew and will be posting on my web site and relaying them for your viewing them on the Wildlandfire.com site. Again Thank you for the brave and hard job working the lines that we as a public take for granted. Be safe and may god bless you all.

Ernest A Pineda,
Retired LAPD

Good morning All,

I heard from Vicki Minor of the WFF again this morning. She asked for me to relay the message that the

City of La Cañada Flintridge is holding a Wildland Firefighter Foundation fundraiser
TODAY
at their Memorial Park off Foothills Blvd across from their farmers' market.

They will be there all day. If you're near there, stop by and donate. There's much more that she shared. I'll
write that up a bit later. If you can't make it to the fundraiser, please donate online at the WFF website, link
at the purple ribbon at the top of this page. I don't need to tell everyone here that the money is always needed
to benefit wildland firefighters and their families in times of need in ways that bureaucracies cannot.

Thanks Vicki, Burk, Sherrie and Guy.

Ab.

Something I wrote yesterday: Hotlist on the WFF

Los Angeles  - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is offering a $100,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and
conviction of whoever set a deadly wildfire north of Los Angeles.

Schwarzenegger announced the reward Friday, a day after officials said forensic evidence at the fire's point of origin revealed
that the wildfire -- among the largest in Southern California's history -- was intentionally set. Two firefighters died Sunday
when their truck careened off a steep mountain road.

Under state law, the governor may offer rewards up to $100,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of any
person killing a firefighter in the line of duty.

The fire has burned through 241 square miles of the Angeles National Forest. More than 70 homes have been destroyed.

Here's a link to a story from the Orange County Register about the OCFA's type 3 strike team and its wild day assignment to Vogel Flats in Big Tujunga Canyon last Saturday on the Station Fire. The fire moved hard into this area when a convection column collapsed and 35 of the 45 homes in this community were lost. 3 civilian burn injuries occurred to folks who wouldn't leave, 2 were seriously burned. The Big T station was saved.

Apologies in advance to our brothers in the XSB strike team and especially to ANF E11 who was also there. Everybody told the reporter about them, too, but in the end she makes it sound like Orange County did it alone. Those who were there know better!

Strike Team Warrior

www.ocregister.com/articles/fire-firefighters-rohde-2550015-rhode-station

Ab,

From the collection of Gordon Rowley, ANF Ret. Prevention Officer.

Gives some perspective of the areas fire history.

John Bennett

Put it on Fire 42 photo page. I followed the photo with 2 from the UCLA cam that gives a current day perspective. John, thanks for that. Ab.

Hey Ab,

I heard Legs - Shawna Legarza has a signing for her book No Grass at Great Basin College, Elko, Nevada on Saturday
Sept. 5th from 1000-1600 hrs. Does anyone know for sure if that's still on, given it's fire season?

Pretty amazing book.

roadrunner

Hey Ab,

Would you please remind your readers, especially the Plans, Situation Unit and GIS folks, that we provide assistance during disasters. During this last week we delivered plotters, software upgrades, ArcGIS extensions, technical support, license files, map data, imagery and GIS Technical Specialists to the Station, Oak Glen and Pendleton fires. To obtain these services, at no cost, simply complete the on-line request form that is linked at the top of the News page. We also have over 2,000 business partners, so if you have a specific need that we can’t supply, chances are one of our BPs has it. A good example occurred during the Australian bushfires when Victoria Police needed GPS-enabled digital cameras, ArcGIS server, rugged PDAs and a simple, easy-to-learn mobile mapping application for damage assessment.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom Patterson
ESRI Wildland Fire Specialist

Hi Ab,

I just finished reading the book "Area Ignition" by Joseph N. Valencia, author of Tranquillon Ridge and Fire Season. The book is the actual true story of the Spanish Ranch Fire in 1979, off of Hwy. 166 in San Luis Obispo County. Four CDF (CAL FIRE) employees out of the Nipomo station lost their lives. An excellent three hour read, 126 pages. The book goes into great detail of the human element / crew cohesion or lack thereof. All the players involved were interviewed during a staff ride in 2005 and subsequent follow-up interviews over a four year period. The book would be a good read for all ranks involved in wild land firefighting.

Thanks,

CDF BC Retired

I've heard good things about this book, too. Beyond Tranquillon Ridge was excellent. Have to read this newest one. I'm added it to the Fire Books page. Ab.

A number of federal wildland firefighters (I think 14 on the Angeles NF and 2 on the Tahoe NF) have lost some
combination of their homes, rental abodes, vehicles, worldly goods. Some are still on the fireline. Casey (FWFSA)
and Vicki (WFF) are trying to help. Just a heads up.

Mellie

Hotlist post in the Lessons Learned Subforum.

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=53402

From JP Harris,

a flyer announcing the memorial details. (75 K pdf file)

ABC7 LA reports, and LA County FD confirms that the memorial service for Fire Captain Tedmund "Ted" Hall and
Firefighter Specialist Arnaldo "Arnie" Quinones is scheduled for

1000 hours, Saturday, September 12th at
Dodger Stadium.

The following link is to LAC's website with more information ~
www.fire.lacounty.gov/

AB,

First of all Thank ALL of your readers, Federal State and Local who have
expressed their condolences for the loss of our two Firefighters.

Attached are the Bios of Captain Ted Hall Camp 16 Supt. And FFS Arnie
Quinones, Crew Supervisor Camp 16 released by Los Angeles County Fire.

Those of you who are not familiar with Fire Camp 16 -- a LAC joint operation
with California Dept of Corrections -- it is a 4 to 5 Fire Crew Operation based
approximately in the center of the Angeles National Forest at a former Nike
Site. The camp was totally destroyed.

Thanks to all your readers who have refrained from guessing speculating what
transpired, when we firefighters do that we create urban legends. Let's all
wait for the official report to be released.

Thanks again to all who share our LOSS
John JP Harris retired, LAC

Hope this helps

-MedicDoug (an ICS evangelist!)

Thanks, Doug. Ab.

ICS Form 207??

www.training.fema.gov/emiweb/IS/ICSResource/ICSResCntr_Forms.htm

Better resource for verification may be at the top of page:

www.training.fema.gov/emiweb/IS/ICSResource/index.htm

Hickman

Thanks, Hickman. Ab.

I was wondering if you know where I can find a document I can cite that lays out
chain of command. I know one, but it’s more of hear-say, and I have to turn one
into Human Resources that is an actual document. I can’t find one anywhere and I
would appreciate it if you could help me.

Thank you!

Cassie

Anyone know right where she can get an ICS doc/layout? Ab.

In '71 we started the Payson Hotshot Crew in Arizona and I was the first Foreman. No IR status for a first year crew
but I have been thinking of asking if anyone has photos of our Helitack, Engine or Hotshot Crews '68-71. The Ranger
Station is now a museum, like me. Joined the U.S. Attorney's office in 1972 and still there (teaching Wildland Fire Law).
Took no pictures in those days but would love to see some.

Mike Johns
Assistant U.S. Attorney
Senior Litigation Counsel

Right now we all need to pause and thank our many friends who are working long, hot hours on the Station Fire.

They are also not without grief after recent events.

NMAirBear

Nice,

Ab.

Reply to: Kris McCauley,

RE: 1971 IR Crew on Spyglass Lookout, IPNF

I am not 100% certain of this answer, and perhaps someone out there can be more definitive than I, but… (based on my 11 years on the Idaho Panhandle National Forest, plus nine years on the Clearwater National Forest) I’m going to hazard a guess that the Inter Regional (IR) Crew mentioned at Spyglass Lookout in 1971, was the Saint Joe Hotshots, and the Crew Foreman at that time was Terry Stranahan, who later became FMO at Avery /Red Ives District and retired in the mid 1990s.

“Nozzle Hog”

Kris,

The Idaho Panhandle at one time hosted three Interregional Fire Crews. Two were disbanded in the late 70's (Kaniksu IR, hosted on the north end of the forest at Priest lake, and the Coeur d'Alene IR, which was hosted by the districts that comprise the Central Zone or CDA River Ranger District. The forest now hosts one Type 1 crew, Idaho Panhandle IHC, formerly the St.Joe IHC that was originally hosted by the St.Maries RD. At one time that crew (CDA IR) based out of Magee RS which is now a historic site. Magee was a separate district before being combined with the Fernan district. If you look around the next time you go in that area you will see that the buildings that are left there are just a small piece of what was there, including an airstrip that may still be big enough to land planes the size of a DC-3. If you are interested in learning a bit more I would advise you to drop in at Fernan.

As for the outhouse my guess would be that the crew either built it outright, did some reconstruction work on it as IR and IHC crews used to be and still are involved in project work when not chasing fire, or one of the boys used it and left their mark for the world to see.

Joeboy

www.bendbulletin.com

front page article with pic of procession

johnny brown

Welcome back, Atta_Gal, what a blast from the past. Hope life is treating you well. Ab.

HI,

Recently, my husband and I hiked up to the Spyglass Peak Fire Lookout in the Idaho Panhandle National Forest.
We found the outhouse and above the door was carved IR Crew '71. I was curious as to what crew was there in
1971 and what their history is.

Can you give me any information regarding this?

Thank you so much!

Kris McCauley
bunnymeadow2@ nospam aol.com

Dave points out the face in the photo of the AT drop...

Ab.

Ab,

In about a half hour, instructor Mark Thomas will be on the NPR show "Talk of the Nation" for a segment about "a day in the life" of wildland firefighters. You can listen online at http://radiotime.com/station/s_32001/KCFR_1340.aspx

After about 4 pm jmdt, you will be able to download the podcast from http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5

A producer from the show called me yesterday after looking at the Colorado Firecamp website, wanting to interview one of our instructors.

vfd cap'n

Followup:

Here’s the link to the segment "A Day in the Life of a Forest Firefighter" on the "Talk of the Nation" today.
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112440766

vfd cap'n

Colorado's hazy skies courtesy of California wildfires
By Howard Pankratz
The Denver Post
Posted: 08/31/2009 02:51:15 PM MDT
Updated: 08/31/2009 09:04:32 PM MDT

The smoke over Colorado — which has made the mountains west of Denver invisible from downtown Denver — has come directly from the massive 85,000-acre wildfire in Southern California, according to the National Weather Service.

Although Denverites could barely see the gray outlines of the foothills immediately west of Golden and Lakewood this afternoon, the higher mountains had disappeared in a dirty white haze.

Norv Larson, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Grand Junction, said a high-pressure system on the Arizona-New Mexico border has caused an airflow that is carrying the smoke in an easterly direction.

"Looking at satellite trajectories, we can follow it all the way back to California," said Larson. "There is a long line of smoke. These fires are so large and burning so hot, they're generating their own weather and lofting smoke thousands of feet into the atmosphere." Etc at the link...

Thank you....

Glenn O

Thanks for that link, Glenn. Sorry about the smoke! Folks you can go read the rest at the link. Ab.

Fair use disclaimer

Attached is a Preliminary Summary Report (Blue Sheet) referencing a non-injury Burn Over of a Model #14
fire engine on the Pacheco Fire in the Santa Clara Unit. Please provide wide distribution of the document via
the regular chain-of-command process for the purposes of discussion and Tailgate safety session.

Dave Teter
Battalion Chief - Department Safety Officer
CAL FIRE

Lessons Learned Hotlist thread (has text and link to prelim doc)

Thanks, Michael. Sad day. I put the photos here on the Memorials page. It's a fitting tribute. Reno isn't too far. I'd like to see it. Ab.

birdchirp

Thanks S. I put them on the Helicopters 27 and Helicopters 28 photo pages. Ab..

Casey to be interviewed on KPFA 94.1 Berkeley

Dear AB & All:

FWFSA Business Manager Casey Judd will be interviewed on radio, KPFA 94.1 Berkeley, tomorrow morning at
8:05 am Pacific Time. The topic will be wildfire preparedness.

FWFSA Board of Directors

Good news! Here's how you can look at the schedule and LISTEN. Ab.

Thanks, I put it on the Handcrews 26 photo page. Ab.