Christian

Welcome to "they said it", Christian. Thanks for that news. Please let us know as the program develops. Ab.

Here's the link:

MTDC hardhat tech tip (992 K pdf file)

There seems to be a perception among dispatchers that there is a new policy at NICC in Boise, regarding filling Overhead Resource Orders for the 2011 fire season.

The common line I hear is, "If the Resource Order cannot be filled within a Regional GACC, and the Order proceeds to NICC, then NICC will "shop" the order to every other GACC and try to fill it with a "government" employee, before they fill it with an AD.

This sounds OK on the surface, until a state agency placing the order (read: NOT tapping into the Federal Fire Fund) gets a Resource Order filled from a Resource in Hawaii or Alaska, when an AD is available 150 miles away (or closer) in the next region...the added costs are obvious.

A perceived exception to the above scenario is when Incident Management Teams are ordered. Then, the Team's "Order" can automatically list an AD to be ordered, even when a qualified government employee may be available.

This seems contradictory in some ways...

Another "not-so-obvious" contradiction is caused by the definition of a "government employee", and the costs there are also questionable. Many retired federal fire employees available for fire assignments are not ADs, but are "Call-When-Needed" fire department employees. They do not go to work at the fire department, and, in fact, may not even live within the same state as the fire department. And yet, they are deemed a "state employee" in ROSS, as they are dispatched through a cooperative agreement with a state forestry agency (or, occasionally, a federal agency with a coop agreement with their host fire department).

The costs of a "Call-When-Needed" fire department employee can easily exceed $50 per hour, and include true "time and a half" overtime, and may add on travel from a distant location outside the state. Compare that cost to an AD employee, and the cost savings of an AD employee are obvious. Are these government employees? Do they hold a 40 hour per week job when not on fire assignments? Would the fire chief know them if they saw them?

Why would these "Call-When-Needed" fire department personnel, who most often cost more than an AD employee, get dispatch preference over a federally hired Administratively Determined (call-when-needed) employee? That is the current perception by dispatchers as we start this fire season. I am hopeful that this perception is incorrect.

Our old friends at NICC occasionally help us out here and offer a clear picture of the current fire season's latest policies and procedures, and how those procedures came to be developed for the current season.

Kim? Chuck? Care to help us all out so we know the current line of thinking at NICC?

Thanks,

LIONA

Interesting, but I don't think so...

The ADs I've met and talked with through the years were not in it for the money, but to serve and continue to enjoy working for a greater good. Most are retirees.
The AD Native American crews fall into a different category. They need the money: New shoes for baby.

But Supplemental Income for most ADs?
I don't think so. In 1999 for the 2 weeks I worked, I got paid a whopping $7 plus change an hour and was fine with that. I would have done it for expenses. Heh, heh, heh.

On the other hand, seems ADs provide a "surge force" like contractors, and those ADs that work should be fairly compensated for what they do.

IMWTK (Inquiring Minds Want To Know):

• When did the AD program begin? Was it the expandable work force conscripted off the streets and out of logging camps?
• When did defined positions for AD hires begin and when did the system morph into the AD system of today?
• Has the mission/vision for the AD force changed through the years?
• What's the upside of AD hires? Expandable? Unique and hard to find skill sets? Retirees with lots of experience? Great attitude about continuing to contribute?
• What would be the downside, say of AD trainers? AD Command and General Staff on IMTs? Are retirees in the loop on current Fed fire and safety policy and tactics? How long before they fall out of the loop?
• What is the alternative to AD if a retiree wants to work and help out beyond retirement? Contracting? Signing up with a local FD for dispatch in the US? Working abroad in countries that are learning and structuring their own ICS?

Hummmm... Just wonderin'.

Mellie

FYI

Photos of the landslide on Hwy 101 north of Garberville CA. Not great shots of mud, but it gives you an idea of what is going on.

kymkemp.com/

Hoping you can help me. I saw the video of the E-56 incident at FDIC last week. Very well done I might add. I am a field staff instructor for the Illinois Fire Service Institute and teach the Fire Service Vehicle Operator course (EVOC) Can you tell me how I might obtain a copy of this video? The instructor who showed it only said his buddy had just sent it to him. This video along with discussion would make a nice addition to our program. I did find the PDF about the incident.

Thank you,

Chuck Sheahen

I just wanted to remind everyone that tomorrow is the last day to bid on the beautiful quilt I am auctioning for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. All proceeds will go to the Foundation. You can view the quilt and place a bid at wffquilt.com.

Thank you,

-Cara and Rob Scott

It has been interesting following the AD discussion. Let me offer a perspective as a fed fire retiree who has worked as an AD and is now working full time for a state fire management organization. The five DOI agencies and the USFS will see flat or declining preparedness budgets for the foreseeable future. The federal government is fiscally bankrupt. Nearly all of the states with fire programs are operating under deficits. Many state fire organizations are asking employees to accept reduced benefit packages, salary reductions and furloughs. The alternative is a reduction in force.

Fire occurrence, season severity, fire behavior and fire complexity are not dependant on our government's self inflicted fiscal problems. In a perfect world, every agency would have a MEL organization, jet airtankers, Type 3 engines, portal to portal, etc.

The reality is that everyone, in every agency will need to get better at working together and doing the best we can with what we have. That will probably include the increased use of ADs, VFDs, contractors and EFF. If you have a problem with that, it would be productive to work on "getting over it".

The good news is that there is a bright young group of interagency employees that have the capacity to meet the challenges of today. I suggest that it may be productive to consider the use of those with a great wealth of experience to help those younger employees to be successful. One of my favorite sayings is "Good judgment is the result of experience. Most experience is the result of bad judgment". Why not capitalize on this wealth of experience?

Airtac

"...Prescribed burn services may include contingency availability and operational duties such as fire line construction and/or maintenance, fuel modification zone construction, fuels pullback, brushing/ lopping/ scattering/ pruning, ignition, holding/ suppression, mop-up and patrol. ...." (bold was added by me)

"Project areas are located on the Wallowa-Whitman National Forest, in the State of Oregon. Specific project locations can be found on the La Grande Ranger District (La Grandee, OR), Whitman Ranger District (Baker City, OR), Wallowa Valley Ranger District (Joseph, OR), and Eagle Cap Ranger District (Joseph, OR). City Locations are for reference only."

Inherently governmental? The closing date is the 31st of this month.

- Wrench

I've been reading the posts about ADs and they are a great resource that do have a place. As someone put it they are the ones who want to work long hours and sleep in a tent. My observations in the last ten years is we (current IMTs) have really struggled with trainees to fill our pipeline. One huuge problem is cost containment and the push back we get from Agency administrators who won't approve more slots to the teams automatically at the time of the call. Many taskbooks in non operations have key tasks that must be performed on day 1, not day four. ROSS has, in many ways, helped streamline the ordering process but unfortunately it has a business rule that after72 hours it automatically UTFs any unfilled order. This causes a re-order or reconsideration. What I can't wait for is including supplies into I-suite and seeing that flounder as we can't get any one for most of our unit managers as far as new trainees to fill the pipeline. I know on our teams this year were all short on logs trainees. There are truths out there and one is an engine cant go far far or fast with no wheels.

Bushman 82

Apes

I like a variety of good folks on my fires, so for a successful fire assignment I'd side with yactak on welcoming the talent of the AD group, retired or not. The trainee issue is a tough one. I relish teaching my young minions my style, especially dozerbossing and felling boss. Quick story: In '99 Nevada captured me as their dozerboss, along with Sacramento 'shots, traveling the state together. Sac' supplied me with 4 or 5 trainees on a 20,000 ac. type 3 fire burning into Utah. Besides the IC, we were the only overhead, as it quickly went type 1. A great assignment, as I signed off all trainees as dozerbosses! Now, several of those are Shot supes & foremen...I'd love to train more dozerbosses locally, but it is hard to set it up. When I ask young folks if they are interested, I get blank stares...A dozerboss trainee is rare for me, ahead of the fire. At 60+, my old legs are going to need the help, fires are going to need the talent, whomever they are...

Respectfully...
benner

Making the rounds. from Bequi Livingston, Regional Fire Operations Health and Safety Specialist

~~~~~ I add my thanks to the Women in FIRE. A terrific sisterhood!~~~~~ Mellie

WOMEN'S  HISTORY  MONTH

Thank you for your dedication to firefighting!

In celebration of Women's History Month this March, the U.S. Fire Administration is recognizing the contributions of all women, past and present, to the American Fire Service. Every day, highly trained women are engaged in firefighting, fire prevention, and emergency medical services (EMS), making significant life safety contributions to local departments and state and national fire service organizations as proven leaders and forward thinking managers. These women are role models, helping to protect our communities while encouraging girls and women to think larger and bolder.
The American fire service is a better service provider today in part because of the many women who have heard this special calling to serve their communities.

Ten Facts about American Women in the Fire Service

• 10,800 women are career (paid) firefighters, making up 3.6% of the career firefighter population. (1)
• Women comprise approximately 4% of the volunteer fire service, an estimated 32,000 members. (5)
• 61,000 women are career emergency medical technicians and paramedics, representing 34% of the EMS work force. (1)
•  The first known female firefighter was Molly Williams, an African American slave who served with the Oceanus Engine Company No. 11 in New York City beginning in 1815. (2)
• Anne Crawford Allen Holst was the first female fire chief when she became chief of the Cedar Hill (RI) Fire Department in 1931. (2)
• In 1942, the first all-woman forest firefighting crew was assembled in California. (2)
• Sandra Forcier became the first career female firefighter (excluding forest firefighting) in 1973, working in Winston-Salem, NC as a combination police officer and firefighter. (2)
• Toni McIntosh of the Pittsburgh (PA) Bureau of Fire was the first African-American woman to become a career firefighter in 1976. (2)
• Deanne Shulman was the first woman to work for the U.S. Forest Service as a smokejumper in 1981. (3)
• FDNY's Brenda Berkman was the first firefighter (male or female) to be selected as a White House Fellow in 1996. (4)
• Ms. Berkman is also a graduate of the National Fire Academy's (NFA) Executive Fire Officer Program. (5)
• Through 2010, 97 women have graduated from the NFA's Executive Fire Officer Program (5)

Sources:
(1) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (PDF, 87 Kb),
(2) International Association of Women in Fire and Emergency Services,
(3) WFS Quarterly (Winter 2002),
(4) Taking the Heat: The First Women Firefighters of New York City,
(5) U.S. Fire Administration

Resources on Women in Firefighting

Workforce Resources

• National Fire Academy Applied Research Projects: Women and Firefighting
• Handbook on Women in Firefighting (PDF, 1.2 Mb)
• Many Faces, One Purpose: A Manager's Handbook on Women in Firefighting (PDF, 1.3 Mb)
• Many Women Strong: A Handbook for Women Firefighters (PDF, 864 Kb)
• Retention and Recruitment for the Volunteer Emergency Services (PDF, 3.4 Mb)
• International Association of Women in Fire and Emergency Services
• International Association of Fire Chiefs Human Relations and Diversity Resources
• International Association of Fire Fighters Human Resources and Assistance
• National Volunteer Fire Council Retention and Recruitment
• A National Report Card on Women in Firefighting (PDF, 883 Kb)

Becoming a Firefighter

• About Firefighting
• Camp Blaze: Fire Camp for Young Women

History

• Timeline: A History of Women Firefighters
• History of Women in Firefighting
• Fire Science Colleges: Ten Amazing Female Firefighters
• Apache 8: A Documentary on Apache Women Firefighters (film)
• Taking the Heat: The First Women Firefighters of New York City (film)
• Women's History Month
• The National Women's History Project

I work in the Midwest and the use of ADs is quire low for national and local assignments. I used to work in the West where ADs are used extensively. I've been assigned to project sized fires and in my opinion most of the fire crews and camp crews were ADs. Primarily Native American. As well. My reasoning for this is there was not enough resources available, thus the ADs come into play. I feel they play a vital role in fire management and there have been quite a few hotshot superintendents and Fmo's that started as ADs mused included.

CARL CRAWFORD
ZONE FUELS PLANNER

We want to extend the invitation to all of the wildland firefighting family out there to submit recipes that they are willing to share in the book. If you have a recipe that you would be willing to share for inclusion in this cookbook please submit it in one of two ways.

• One, email them to cookbook @ wffoundation.org, or
• Two, send by regular mail to WFF Sherrie Kvamme, P.O. Box 191, Richland, Oregon 97870.

Please do not send them to the Foundation office. The deadline for us to get recipes is May 15, 2011. Any recipes submitted after that, or those over the number allowed in the cookbook, will be held for possible inclusion in a second collection at a later date

You may also add up to 4 lines (about 375 characters) of notes that you would like to share. Things like “This recipe has been in the family for 100 years” or “A good after the fire breakfast” or “Dont double this recipe as it doesn't come out right”.

If you want it listed please make sure you put your name and any department or Agency affiliation on EACH recipe i.e. CalFire, NPS retired, Storm King survivor, Grayback Forestry, Neptune Aviation, etc.

Please limit your submissions to a maximum of three recipes.

Some hints for inputting recipes are:

• List ingredients in order of use and make sure all ingredients are accounted for in the directions.
• Abbreviate measurements list using standard abbreviations, i.e., c - cup, T - Tablespoon, pkg. - package, env. – envelope.
• Include all container sizes, e.g., 2 (8-oz.) cans.
• Check for consistency of names, ingredients, etc, e.g., don't use “1 c. butter” on some recipes and “2 sticks butter” on others.
• Write directions in paragraph form, not in steps.
• Use ingredient names in the directions, e.g., use “Combine flour and sugar” rather than statements such as “Combine the first two ingredients.”
• Include temperatures and all cooking, chilling, baking, or freezing times. Also indicate if the recipe has already been modified for high altitude.

Mike Warren
President Board of Directors
WFF

Thank you “a grumpy taxpayer” for stating the situation so clearly. The reserve analogy was great.

However, you are going to be grumpier when I tell you that the Forest Service in FY 2010 spent $6, 257,451.40 (yes that is 6 million) in AD training alone.  This doesn't even include travel/perdiem. The DOI stated they were about the same in AD training dollars, so that makes just over 12 million plus in FY 2010 for training Administratively Determined hires, all the while agency personnel had their training budgets cut and many could not go to training. 

I believe the AD program to be a much abused program.  There is not enough oversight, regulations or accountability on how the program is run or used. Individual AD's have the option of saying no they can't, don't, or won't go. There is absolutely nothing that says they have to be available for us, no matter how much we spend to get them or keep them qualified, they don't have to meet our needs. The program in its current state is meeting the AD's needs, not necessarily agencies needs, and that needs to be reversed.

The bottom line is the AD program is not here for the ADs, the ADs are here for the program.

To address yactac and my job.  You are correct, I don't like the way the agency utilizes ADs.  I believe they have allowed for fiscal abuse and misuse of the program, but I do love my job and I believe in what I do and believe the AD program can and will change into a more fiscally responsible program, but I appreciate your concern and suggestion.

Anon

yactak speaks with wisdom once again. As a fire retiree, I agree that ADs should only be used when attached to an agency trainee. There is a wealth of knowledge to pass on to the bright young fire managers of today. For example, there are retirees who have several hundred and in some cases, a few thousand prescribed burns under their belt that a new employee will never experience. I also believe that fire departments are an under utilized source for positions that are often UTF'ed locally and filled at at higher cost with resources from afar.

airtac

Would like to comment on a couple of points that Grumpy made, especially #1. You are right, to a point. The agency has hired people to do a specific job. Those in fire, fight fire. Those in Rec manage Recreation, etc. The agency has hired those in the militia to do jobs other than fire. If you accept the premise that all other functions are less important than fire, the I could agree with you. However, having been on the other side, fire is not the ONLY priority. Increasingly, the agencies are under court orders and congressional mandates and deadlines that are externally controlled. In these cases, the employees must work the jobs they are hired for and not available for fire duty. This, in my opinion, is where the AD program comes in.

Any retiree that plans on AD work to make ends meet has failed to plan much earlier in life!

As for your #3, I agree. Remember, our citizen soldiers are in all walks of life, until called upon. They then go into their respective MOS. To me, the AD program is the exact same. In my case, I do my retired thing until called as an AD. I then make the decision as to accept the assignment. If I take it, I do a very specific job that I was trained to do while employed full time. At the end of the incident, I go home. To me, this is a cost effective way for the agency to supplement their workforce for a specific event, and accomplish the mission and targets given to them by Congress.

RetFSFireCop

In many ways the AD issue makes sense in several different arenas.
1.) The agency is already paying for the said persons base 8 hours, whether they are sitting at the office or out on a fire. Granted the money is coming out of different accounts, but its still coming out of the big account-TAX PAYER DOLLARS. So financially it makes sense, why should the government hire someone else to do the job while they have someone, somewhere already on the clock who can do the assignment. Essentially your paying two people to do one job.

2.) the agency has an invested interest in permanent employees, they need people to stay current and to have training assignments and gain experience. What incentive would there be to work for an agency if you knew that you were going to be passed over for an assignment because there was an AD that was closer.

3.)In my book, the AD program is a reserve program, just like the military reserve is suppose to be. If we don't need them they stay at home, but if we do, we call them up and we have ready trained reinforcements.

4.) if you have problems with 2 or 3, revert to #1, ultimately its saving money in my book, and with already 1/3 of my income disappearing to taxes, if it saves tax dollars then so be it. I realize there are exceptions to its being cheaper, and people will make the argument that transportation costs and what not, but when you figure it all in, I say its still cheaper, especially if an AD gets hurt, or anything ab-normal happens.

signed
a grumpy tax-payer

As far as I know ADs would be considered Fed Only. They are sponsored by a Forest and they meet the requirement of being cheaper.( no overtime pay ) The point of ordering Fed Only resources is to save money. It could behow its interpreted when the order is placed. I have seen many orders placed as Fed Only and had ADs show up. The point is to not have the resource filled by a state or local government person.

J M

Anon
High Five !!
Great post, Like you said AD isnt there to supplement your retirement ! would be great to hear more from you on here Anon

hoops

Right on! About time someone addressed the " AD entitlement" situation. My personal pet peeve is the guy who has been retired for years in a specialized job and continues to AD and NEVER takes on a Trainee, seems to me if the position is in critically short supply and an AD is necessary (because of a lack of qualified agency personnel) then a Trainee should be mandatory.

If you love and respect the firefighting career, then do the right thing and TRAIN your replacement, keep the knowledge flowing.

I am truly sorry if your Fed retirement is not enough to live on, you were well aware of the retirement age approaching, and frankly, you should have planned better. If money is a huge problem, get a job somewhere, learn a new skill.....
Enjoy retirement.

Kibble free (and semiretired)

One of the best post's I have read on theysaid in a while Thank you!

stilldodgingbullets

1) Resources represented by the National Wildland Fire Coordinating Group (U. S. Forest Service, National Park Service, U. S. Fish and Wildlife, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Department of Defense, and Southern States).
2) Administratively Determined (AD) hires.
3) Contractors.

Basically that means that agency personnel will be utilized first, then they can go to AD's (if they want to). Many places want to utilize resources within their own GACC, and if an order cannot be filled within, then they have the option to place up or cancel/UTF. It's their choice. Cost could be a factor, maybe they were trying to get a GACC person to fill so they can meet their IFPM requirements (which could also be why the FED only was indicated), or it could be they just didn't need the position any more. There are many reasons for the UTF or “FED ONLY” requirement.

Also as a FYI the “FED ONY” button has been in ROSS since it was started 7+ years ago. Individual units and GACCs are just finally utilizing it the way it was designed for. If they only want an agency person (for whatever reason) it is their choice.

Former AD states he knew 20 qualified AD's who didn't go out, well I know hundreds of qualified agency personnel who didn't go out. I also know many qualified agency folks who didn't get a chance to go out, because ADs went instead.

Yea ADs hear a lot, but the facts are, you are not guaranteed to work during the summer for the federal agencies, and with the way the last few fire seasons turned out, I'd suggest getting a regular steady job doing something and not be so dependent on the federal government and the wildland fire seasons.

Anon

I am a municipal FF. I support better pay and benfits for federal wildland fire fighters. I do NOT get PTP pay nor does any department in my state. The departments in my state do NOT get administrative "fees".

I am not advocating AGAINST federal PTP pay. I did not even mention PTP. I am concerned that the possibility of eliminating fire department backfill pay in this proposed legislation is detrimental to the national response effort. Backfill pay to cover those gone on an assignment makes it possible for fire departments to respond and still maintain their required staffing levels set by our city councils.

Additionally, I would be happy to assist in any legislation if I was asked to help.

AZfirefighter

So... a few weeks ago, I got a call from dispatch to go to the West Texas I.A. The trip went well and I returned home with a couple glowing personnel performance reviews. A few days later, I put myself available again in hopes of getting another assignment.

Early this week I get another call from my Interagency Dispatch asking if I was available to go. Yep. I was somewhat surprised and saddened to get a call back a few minutes later... It was dispatch again. They were sorry, but the order was to be filled by "FEDS ONLY". I am what is known as a COOPERATOR" in Colorado.

Later that afternoon, I was on the phone catching up with some of my Texas contacts and shared the story. I was told " Hold, on, here talk to this guy, he is the person who actually placed that order". This individual said he didn't care who I got my regular paycheck from, if I was red carded to do the job and would do a good job, then I ought to be able to fill it. I double checked that I was shown as available in ROSS, and sent him copies of my red card, etc. He called back to inform me that it was the TICC who was putting the "FED ONLY" requirement on these orders. Nothing he could do about it. OK.

A few days pass, and today I get a phone call from the guy who replaced me down in Texas a couple weeks ago. He wanted to know what I was doing and why I wasn't coming back down. I explained that I was available in ROSS, but hadn't received a call. This was for a totally separate ICS position then I had been offered and then shot down for a few days earlier. Long story short... teh end result is the same. The TICC was sending out all orders as FED ONLY. Really??? For a position I had filled less then 14 days earlier, had not 1, but 2 glowing performance reviews for?

I had never seen this "FED ONLY" requirement prior to the Gulf Oil Spill incident last year. Is this a identity crisis or what? It is NOT in line with their preached by not followed "Highest and Best Value". As a cooperator, we do NOT charge for backfill, admin fees, etc. I believe the state of Colorado does add 13% for their admin fees, but my agency adds NONE!. So.. the AD rate for my position is $18.25 per hour, even with the 13% the rate is only $20.62. I will put that rate against ANY federal employee they get to fill the position.

Our local USFS Interagency Dispatch Center did away with ADs back in the early 2000's. They said they preferred we find cooperators to use as home units instead because of the paperwork and liability savings. The training classes that I have taken are NWCG classes, most often taught by USFS employees at USFS training facilities. The taskbooks are NWCG, again most of the signatures in the taskbooks are from USFS employees. If the training is FED, and the experience is FED, and the performance reviews are very good, and the price MEETS or IS LESS THAN FEDS, what is the problem with cooperators?

I watched at least three resource orders go UTF this week, while I was shown available in ROSS, that I am fully red card qualified for...

(confused ff)

• Directing Agency personnel to amend cooperative agreements between the federal land management agencies and cooperating agencies i.e. State, local government by offering reimbursement rates for all non-federal resource costs at a level identical to that paid for commensurate federal resources.
• Reducing or eliminating “Admin Fees” and backfill costs and any and all other peripheral, additional costs traditionally paid by the federal government to cooperating, contracting agencies.

I must continue to caution the detriment this might have. I still feel there will be a dramatic loss of fire department participation if you eliminate specifically the backfill pay.

Are there other municipal fire personnel who do not agree that their departments would be less or unwilling to respond without backfill coverage?

I fully support the wildland fire fighters, but this single suggestion seems detrimental to the national response efforts.

AZfirefighter

More info:

Website: eldoradohotshots.org

Print this pdf file and put it on a bulletin board where you work! Fundraiser Flyer
 

Retired Los Padres Fire Chief Thom Myall, 69, passed away peacefully last Sunday night in his home. He had been battling cancer for some time. Thom was the champion and first Chief of the centralized Los Padres National Forest fire organization. Under his leadership fire money went to the ground, firefighters were empowered and the forest fire organization blossomed. Union grievances dropped 90%, training was equitable and standardization was met across the forest.

Thom was one of the last old time Forest FMOs – former District Ranger on the Sierra National Forest and qualified at the Type I and Area Command levels. Thom spent many years as a team member at both levels and was selected by the R5 Board of Directors as the R5 FMO of the Year in 1997.

Thom was also very active in the community acting as a webmaster for several organizations and was recognized as a Goleta Community Volunteer of the Year. The family plans to have a memorial but no date has been set yet. Condolences can be sent to Thom’s wife Barbara and the family at:

6227 Marlborough Drive
Goleta, California 93117-1637

Thom was always the calm voice of reason, he will be missed.

Due to this type of mentality from our political and Agency management, how are we to trust our leadership? I have been questioning my job of late…”Selfless Sacrifice, Duty, Integrity, Ethics.” Do any of these words mean anything to our ignorant (look up the definition if that word offends) current political y appointed “leaders” and Agency management? I think not!

Ta

The benchmark for risk and heroism in the face of nuclear disaster was set by technicians and responders, including helicopter crews making external drops, during the Chernobyl disaster. Such history can only have increased the current responders' awareness of the hazards which they have been facing. May the ongoing efforts at Fukushima -1 prove successful and not incur the sacrifices demanded by Chernobyl.

Holdover

Forest Leadership Team Members -- Please share the following information with your employees. I think it especially important to ensure the information gets shared with fire staff, given all the recent work that has gone in to reviewing and evaluating applications for temporary positions. Thank. ph

Each year R5 Forests are required to submit a mid-year review to the Regional Forester that documents our spending to-date and indicates whether we'll be able to complete our funded Targets and meet our other program/work commitments. The Regional Forester placed specific emphasis this year on remaining within budget in our Fire program (WFPR & WFHF), and required each Forest to provide a summary of the budget implications on our WFPR allocation. While the Forest has always been required to operate within our funding allocations, historically, there has been more flexibility in our Fire budget.

Currently, if the Los Padres were to staff at 100 percent of the most efficient operating level (MEL), we would need approximately $1.5 million more than we are allocated and/or authorized to spend in FY2011. In light of this shortfall, we are developing a series of staffing scenarios that reflect our WFPR allocation and/or our authority. These scenarios may include some of the following: reduce the level of staffing; reduce or eliminate planned overtime; delay purchases of certain supplies and equipment; delay filling vacant permanent positions; and, reduce or delay the hiring of temporary fire positions. The purpose of these discussions is in the spirit of "no surprises" with the Regional Forester and Regional Fire and Aviation Management. We will either tighten our belts, be relieved of some firefighter production capacity (FFPC), or we'll be comfortable with elevated budget risk. Whatever the decision, we will be in it together.

We expect to hear quickly from the RO on how we are expected to operate, given our WFPR budget situation. I do not anticipate we will fill many temporary positions until we're on the same page with the Region. I recognize there has been a significant amount of work done by you and your staffs to review applications. and possible delay in hiring for these positions may create frustration. However, in the end, our Forest fire resources are part of Regional shared resources, and whatever path we take will be lock step with the Region. I appreciate your understanding as we navigate through these challenges.

As soon as we receive guidance and further clarification from the Regional Forester, we will take all appropriate steps to position ourselves with the resources and staffing required to meet our objectives during the upcoming fire season.

Peggy Hernandez
Forest Supervisor
Los Padres National Forest

SOCALFS

Ab,

I have some questions pertaining to a post and it's replies in the "You Want to be a Wildland Firefighter" Section of the site. On 2/21/04 Jason posted "Good Morning All,

"Your application for the position of Forestry Technician (hotshot/handcrew),GS-0462-04 at Nationwide has been evaluated. You were found to be eligible for the position and your name was referred to the selecting official. If interviews are conducted or additional information is needed, the selecting official or someone from the Human Resources office will contact you."

"Your application for the position of Forestry Aid (Fire), GS-0462-03 at has been evaluated. You were found to be eligible for the position and your name was referred to the selecting official. Qualifications of selected candidate(s) will be verified by Human Resources prior to job offer. If interviews are conducted or additional information is needed, the selecting official or someone from the Human Resources office will contact you."

However I was unable to find a reply to Jason's question that really answered my questions. I'd really like to improve my chances of getting hired, but don't know the first thing. Should I just wait until they contact me or should I attempt to contact them to show interest and bring attention to my application? Is there a way for me to contact the selecting official? My application is for several locations in Humboldt County, CA. If I should contact the selecting official should I get a hold of someone from each of those locations or is the selecting official someone who is higher up and shouldn't be contacted? If I should contact him/her is there anything specific I should ask or say? General tips on this subject are welcome as well.

Thanks for your time,
Brandon

njg said:

I was wondering about the Las Vegas Helitack Crew. The good and bad.

Great place to work....the way the fire season works makes this a GREAT place to be centrally based out of.

I was there in '99 or 2000 and saw lots of local IA on Mt Charleston... even more in Panaca and Caliente..... good fun, light fuel fire for the most part. I also saw at least 4 out of region assignments as well

One of the issues i faced in Vegas was the constant severe temperature change from inside AC to outside and back and fourth.... Fun town too....

MG

Hi all,

I have worked in fire for a long time, but am now applying for a position under a "Demo" announcement due to having received a masters degree, but not having the appropriate time in grade. I have always been under the impression that the position has to be hired off the merit list unless there is not an applicable candidate. I have had one person tell me that they can hire off of either list as long as there are no veterans etc. I am just curious what the actual rules are in regard to this and if I have any sort of chance of getting a job this way. I can't find anything about it on the OPM website. Anybody out there know about this?

Thanks for any info!
S.

Thanks for what you do!

V

You bet! Here's to Ralph! I'll pass on your email address, too. Ab.

I'll direct folks that want to comment to the FWFSA website. Ab.

update: Just read that the aircraft and pilots are Japanese military, who are also helping at the plant: Helicopters Douse Quake Damaged Nuclear Plant with Water

Knowing the supervisor of the crew, I can say that they are a great group. The leader is fair and even handed. We have had the privilege of hosting them on our Unit and found them to be low maintenance, eager to assist with projects and always polite, experienced, and highly qualified for their job.

They stay very busy in Vegas and summer temps can be quite high. If temps don't bother you (and you ARE in fire!?!?) then this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Kim

Here is another great example of how we are moving in the direction of a HRO. Becoming a reporting culture is one of the Pillars of a HRO, and a Just Culture.

Student of HRO

A ojai Hotshot patch from the Philippines (Their spelling, not mine) real or counterfeit??

old lpf

Counterfeit. The position of the O on the patch is not correct, spacing between the words is not correct and the "trees" and lower "veg" are not in correct proportions, squatty bird, too. HAW HAW. Ab.

“…..What we ALL need to remember is the people of Wisconsin voted these people in to make votes for them, based on the past views and stands of said politicians……”

“…..What is very sad is that those representatives that left the State, where given 3 weeks to come and testify about their views and they choose to run…..”

***'m not sure I have ever seen two statements written by one person, with such contradiction***

“…It is very simple, The MAJORITY of voters in Wisconsin have elected these people to represent them, the voters and that is what they are doing. In the words of our President, when asked about pushing through a bill he favored , " We won"….”

***Elected what “people”??? Because the “people” you denigrated in the next paragraph you wrote, as being “childish for not getting their way”, were ALSO VOTED IN BY A MAJORITY. Correct? You are absolutely correct in that they have a job. Part of that job is to stand up for people, by (in your words) “running”, and making it impossible to HAVE a voting session until reason prevailed. Remember when a another President proclaimed “victory” in 2003?

“…..As a percentage of their gross wages, they are being asked for very little, especially in comparison to the majority of the rest of us Americans…..”

***I'm going to get off the firefighter track here, because this is not about firefighters. Let's just say for sake of argument, that you went college for four years…. Got a credential….Were required to complete a number of units of continuing education each year….. Decided (and in many places, it's not really your decision) that you needed to go ahead and get a Master's degree. So, a school teacher, that is right there next to a PhD ( believe it, or not, but many of these teachers that get summers off actually have advanced degrees)….. Yet, so, for the simple fact that they are employed by a “Government”, they need to be happy to tighten their belts??? They are not being asked to tighten their belts…. Not even close, my friend. Yet while this was going on in Wisconsin, at the same time as we receive this advise from you, the American public is more worried about whether the 2011 “football” season is going to happen, than whether or not the government will be employed this coming Friday at 0900 hrs.

So, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but really think about what you are saying. Because, there are many people that can, and will, leave at a moments notice, if you, or the people that “we” elected, jack them too hard with this attitude. That whole idea that simply because “you are a taxpayer, I work for ‘you'”… is flawed”. I, though simply a Forestry Technician and not a firefighter, work for a collective. That liberal Democrat tree hugger has just as much “say” as you or the Koch Brothers, do. That people get fed up with the BS, has far reaching effects, in not only services rendered, but also unanticipated costs.

Sometime, if you have a minute, simply sit down and put your head back. Close your eyes, and really think about what the consequences could be if the horrible govt. (ALL GOVT.) were to actually shut down. What if, for instance we all, collectively on one day (a true 24 hour period) decided to “tighten our belts” and voluntarily took a 24 hour (unpaid) furlough day? No… Not, I'll take Tuesday off, and you take Thursday off... No critical need…. I'm talking “belt tightening”. Every person that works for ANY govt. agency takes next Monday, March 20th off…. No FD. No PD. No EMS. No public works. No TSA, at the airports, which means, no airports. Aunt Jenny dies, and she rots because not only can she not be buried without an autopsy (done by an overpaid govt. worker), but the electricity that powers the freezer, is shut off. Gotta tighten belts! No food safety or health inspectors… The list goes on and on… “Majority” rules, right?

Whether you want to admit it or not, you need your govt. to be socialistic. You want you government to be socialistic. By definition that is what a government does. Do you want to haggle with a free enterprise capitalistic fire “company” when the curtains ignite in your kitchen? Do you really want elementary school teachers “capitalizing”? ***

A Taxpayer and realist

Safenet Review 2010 (pdf)

What is a safenet? What happens when one is filed, etc. Presentation of bar graphs of safenets by year and by agencies by year and by other categories.

Contributing Factors - 2010
One of the important components of a safety related reporting system is the identification of contributing factors. The SAFENET system allows the submitter to choose from six different elements that may be present, including communications, human factors, equipment, fire behavior, environmental, and other. As in most years human factors and communications are the leading categories for 2010. Many submissions cite more than one contributing factor.

If you have a minute, read it.

Strider

"The intent of this source list is to provide Incident Management Teams, Geographic Area Coordination Centers, and Forests access to the availability of helicopter resources on a state, geographical and national basis to conduct human extractions (hoist/short-haul) for emergency evacuations".

This is a direct quote from page 1 within the "EHEL" source list.

As far as I can tell the original message announcing this link was from the LLC. Ab.

njg

for starters, if you haven't seen 'em:
BLM Website
FWS Website

opednews.com

Awesome: Wisconsin Firefighters Shut Down Bank That Funded Walker

Everybody knows the GOP's biggest weakness is money, so why not hit 'em in the sweet spot? That's what many amazing Wisconsin firefighters did yesterday when they collectively began withdrawing their funds from Madison's M&I Bank -- whose executives and board members were among the highest donors to Governor Scott Walker's campaign....

More at the link...

LIONA

I don't know who you are and frankly it doesn't matter. What is important is for us to remember a few key things that you are leaving out! Very important things that you may have forgotten!

1. The Government that we elected to serve us brought this deficit upon us by electing to reinforce the monetary infrastructure with billions in printed money!
   Which by the way was in no way created by Firefighters, Police officers or Bus Drivers. After it was deposited the goons from big money took the money and split. No one mentions that!
2. The state of Wisconsin sat at that proverbial table and re-negotiated the contracts and shook hands and stamped documents with the Union. Its called a negotiation and not because the employer is being held hostage either, although that's what some would have us believe! I would tend to agree that some Unions tend to exaggerate the need for some contract items and its plainly obvious that those days are over.
3. Every taxpayer that votes is looking to get the most bang for their buck. With that said i think the State of Wisconsin may have bitten off more than they could chew! I admire the Govs. tenacity to get down to business but i think he is going about it in the wrong way. Do you really think anyone will want to come to work for the taxpayers of your State? How will they be treated? Will they be able to afford to by a decent house? Or live in the neighborhood that you do? Or send their children to your children's school? No because they won't be able to afford to! Public servants are being villainized because they cost money plain and simple. Well folks you get what you pay for and what you vote for! When it comes to my safety i want the best that money can buy, because when the buildings come down its those highly overpaid people that are rollin to save your ass!
4. What is the Gov. of the State of Wisconsin paid? what is the LT. Gov. paid? How much does it cost to run his cabinet? I assure you that they will protect their wages and after they have saved you a bunch of money they will give themselves raises.

In ending let us not forget the "highly overpaid public servants" who at this very hour are headed into harms way to search for survivors in Japan. Those who will no doubt find little sleep or comfort at the task ahead. Those "highly overpriced public servants" will be in places that you can't pay other people to be, that's why they ask for a little compensation in return. If anyone is deserving of our respect and loyalty it is our public servants, think about that the next time you hear a fire engine drive down your street at 3 in the morning or the next time you see a police officer raiding a meth lab on your block or when those wildland firefighters save your neighborhood!

And as far as tightening the belt goes, it's fine as long as it isnt around my neck!

Signed, Can't take it no more

ms-
Diversity is our strength.

misery whip-
Thanks for the list. I have much to learn.

Madison

City of Madison News Release

I just got off the phone with Matthew Radtke, one of the American River Hotshots who just ran their "Just Finish" Marathon to raise money for the Foundation. Matt finished around 6 hours and Shawn in just over 4 hours. Thank you so much to these 2 for their endurance, compassion, and determination! They raised right around $600 for their efforts. We sure appreciate you and your efforts for the wildland community and the Foundation. Way to go guys!! Enjoy that cool bath and that cold beer!

Melissa Brandt
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Nice, thanks runners. Ab.

I would hardly label the mentioned companies as Ultraconservative. In fact one in particular, I, personally would label as fairly liberal. What we ALL need to remember is the people of Wisconsin voted these people in to make votes for them, based on the past views and stands of said politicians. The Governor, for one stated during his campaign that he would make the removal of collective bargaining as a priority. What is very sad is that those representatives that left the State, where given 3 weeks to come and testify about their views and they choose to run. This sets a terrible precedent. To me it is a very childish maneuver. One rather like " I know I am not going to get my way so I will run and hide" . It is very simple, The MAJORITY of voters in Wisconsin have elected these people to represent them, the voters and that is what they are doing. In the words of our President, when asked about pushing through a bill he favored , " We won".

Well..... Our country is BROKE!!! In fact the interest payment on our National Debt is going to surpass the Defense Budget in 2012! We ALL need to tighten our belts. Having a person pay more into THEIR OWN medical insurance and RETIREMENT should hardly be a felony!!! As a percentage of their gross wages, they are being asked for very little, especially in comparison to the majority of the rest of us Americans.

A taxpayer and a voter

We had to do something to help support our working men and women. None of us are rich, not even close. If they do this to teachers but do not tax big business, they will do it to all of the rest of us to. Please support us. We come WEST to support you when you need us to fight fire. We need you!

Madison in Wisconsin, proud to be a firefighter

WI Firefighters Spark "Move Your Money" Moment

On the day that the bill passed the Wisconsin Assembly effectively ending 50 years of collective bargaining in Wisconsin and eviscerating the ability of public unions to raise money through dues, a new front opened in the battle for the future of Wisconsin families.

Bagpipes blaring, hundreds of firefighters walked across the street from the Wisconsin Capitol building, stood outside the Marshall and Ilsley Bank (M&I Bank) and played a few tunes -- loudly. Later, a group of firefighter and consumers stopped back in at the bank to make a few transactions. One by one they closed their accounts and withdrew their life savings, totaling approximately $190,000. After the last customer left, the bank quickly closed its doors, just in case the spontaneous "Move Your Money" moment caught fire.

fair use disclaimer

I wanted to tell TheySaid about some of the amazing people in our community.

We would like to say a big thank you to the GODFATHER of all runners, that crazy endorphin addict willing to endure physical and mental challenges to fundraise for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation – KENNETH PERRY . This guy sparked something that has continued to burn well past his last run for the Foundation. Ken, I posted on Facebook, I'll say it again, time to dust off the mountain bike and go riding with Killer while you run through the California desert…you name the date, I'll be there.

Ken's inspiration has folks across the country signed up to run marathons and start runs of their own, all to bring attention to the wildland community and support their fellow firefighters. Here are some of those efforts…

March 12 (tomorrow!), two American River Hotshots will be running in the “Way Too Cool” Marathon – (renamed the “Just Finish” Marathon by these two hotshots!) – They have been collecting pledges for the past month (not too late to pledge! Follow this link marathons firefighter pledges foundationl). I read a comment this morning attached to a pledge from a family member saying how proud they are, it brought a tear to my eye. I talked with one of the runners last Friday and he told me the training was going well - he also didn't want to know how many pledges had been collected…too much pressure. I'll be on the phone with him when he's finished and enjoying his “after” beer.

April 18 - Shanna Burke, Daniel Holmes' cousin, is running in the Boston Marathon. We're taking $52 pledges (2 bucks per mile) for Shanna's efforts. Please visit her blog to read all about Danny at Run for peace run for love run for. Shanna has shared some very beautiful things about her cousin - you feel pride in every word.

April 23 & 24 – The Dalton Hotshots are participating in the Ragnar Relay Series Southern California, a 200.9 mile relay race from Ventura to Dana Point . Donations can be made to the Foundation's website, please include a comment that your donation is for the Relay. These Hotshots have run this 200+ mile race for two years in a row to support the Foundation! Donations accepted here Donation

May 7 – The 3rd Annual Mike Schweitzer Memorial Run (5K and 10K) to take place in Etna, California , more information is available at this link Schweitzer Challenge 2011  (pdf) this run is a great mixture of road and trail running.

May 21 - Lava Beds Fire Management will present a run/walk to remember the lives of Captain Shawn Price and Firefighter Thomas Marovich Jr in Tulelake, CA . You can download the registration form here: Firefighter Memorial Run Registration (pdf).

June 4 – The folks on the Salmon-Challis National Forest are sponsoring their first annual Jeff Allen and Shane Heath Memorial Run (you can go to this link to register jeff allen and shane heath memorial run 2011 ).

We have MANY other fundraisers posted at our website wffoundation.org;

- Silver State Hotshots Vertical Drop Competition (Mar 18)
- Del Rosa Hotshots' Golf Scramble (Mar 19)
- Eldorado Hotshot's Day at the Winery (April 9)
- Fulton Hotshots Sporting Clay Shoot (Apr 22 & 23)
- Boise National Forest Golf Scramble (June 4)
- Quilt Silent Auction (Bid Now - This is a beautiful quilt!)

I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. We also have had a number of regional teams hold silent auctions, raffles, and other fundraisers at their agency meetings. You don't know how much we appreciate your efforts and all that you do.

Thank you from all of us here at the Foundation. We could not help the families and firefighters without your support. From our heart to yours, stay safe everyone.

Melissa Brandt
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
www.wffoundation.org

Recognizing Tree Hazards & Tree Hazard Checklist treecare/ hazards

R6er

Fire Geek

First waves are beginning to reach norcal --Humboldt County-- coast. Evacs, school closures, business closures, etc in Eureka and low-lying surrounding areas.

7:40-1:40 but waves can continue up to 12 hr. The first waves may not be the worst.

Ab.

Just to keep up with what could matter during my last (maybe next year's) fire season, I thought I'd reread all of Feb. thru March posts again to see if I'd missed anything important.

The Modoc IHC thing was puzzling, but the two subjects that I have the most experience with were :  The Contractor/Private vs. Feds stir-up and secondly, the Dispatcher Dustup.

• As a dozerboss, and felling boss I can attest that my contractors are generally wonderful, maximum workmonsters who at the end of the day want to do A+ work and be called again, over and over. My fallers and dozer dudes are always the most fun, together we are pros! That is the what of that subject. Some of the who that I firmly agree with on this, fall to Misery Whip and Stringtown; by the way String, don't know 'ya, but sure would follow you and Whip anywhere and do most anything, reasonably safe. You are amazing. Can't see Privatization at all.
   
• Dispatch, I know from Sharon trying alot of us FF's out @ Redmond Air Center's Dispatch to cross train us.. She said, "it'll be a good thing." It was... rewarding, eyeopening and a good thing for all. When my dozerlegs fail, perhaps I could go do that, as I need to rest someday. At 61, for some reason I still want to do it...String, you said a lot of why we do it, and how Professionally we all do it, in one of your posts. All of us, Feds, Staters, Contractors, Dispatchers, and Rural/Municipal Firefighters like what we do and thanks to Casey want a little pay now & then...

So Stringtown, in your spare time can you take on all these messes and lead us...Oh, I guess 'ya did. I think retirement is near...

Thanks Ab.

signed,
Benner

Dennis (Ben) Benhower, a FOBS, FELB & DOZB
Camp Sherman, OR

You're welcome. Happy soon-to-be-retirement Ben. Don't be a stranger. Ab.

If I'm walking through a burned area with trees or a not burned area with trees, how do I recognize if any of them are hazard trees?

Greenie

Fuels info from AZ, Making the rounds:

Due to the early February freeze, many of the oaks are showing signs of widespread frost damage. I am not sure to what extent all of the other districts are experiencing damage from the freeze but I am guess you all are experiencing much the same. Since just recently the extent of the damage is starting to make itself very evident, I would take the time to get this out and insure everyone is aware of what is going on here on the district and likely much of the forest before they find themselves on a fire here.

Drew Leiendecker
Prescribed Fire and Fuels Specialist
Coronado National Forest
Sierra Vista Ranger District/
Ft. Huachuca Military Installation

YouTubes from TX Forest Service and TX ArgiLife Extension Service

The Texas Forest Service and Texas AgriLife Extension Service are part of a team of state agencies teaming with the National Weather Service to help forewarn people about the danger of wildfires this season.

• TX wildfires through March and April.
  Texas AgriLife Extension Service
  Fuels are dry on the land. "All we need are that spark and the wind."
  Texas wildfire predictions for March-April 2011
  www.youtube.com (1 min 49 sec)
   
• Texas wildfire b-roll March 2011
  Texas AgriLife Extension Service
  (you can hear the wind; first 3 minutes are of fighting the fire from an engine: need LCES)
  www.youtube.com (7 min)

News article:
Texas crop, weather for March 8
2011-03-09
High risk of wildfire predicted to continue through April
By: Robert Burns

COLLEGE STATION — Crops, pastures and rangeland continued to be stressed by drought in most of Texas.

Adding insult to injury, the high risk of wildfire would last through April for most of the state, according Texas Forest Service and Texas AgriLife Extension Service personnel. The problem remains lack of moisture, combined with a heavy fuel load of dry grasses and high winds.

On Feb. 22 these conditions contributed to the outbreak of 20 major wildfires from Amarillo to Ozona and Midland east to Matador, an area with a “footprint of about 45,000 square miles,” said Mark Stanford, Forest Service operations chief.

Stanford said the winds spread the fires at 4 to 5 miles per hour, creating the equivalent of a football-field size area burning every minute. At least 80 homes burned and hundreds of families evacuated.

Stanford and other forecasters feared that, without rain, the same conditions that fueled the Feb. 22 fires will continue to raise the risk of wildfires big and small. (rest at the link)

The rest of the article breaks the prediction or conditions down by the 12 TX AgriLife Extension Service districts. (It's a big state.)

Drought Monitor Map
NOAA Fire Detection hotspot viewer

Ab.

For discussion and Tailgate Safety sessions...

Letterman

Your points are well taken. The APA process for the Chalk Fire APA are right on target.

1) The Driver and Acting Captain were in compliance with letters of direction that were in place at the time of the BDF E-56 accident. It was pointed out to the APA team. It was not incorporated into the final APA.

2) Attempts to revise the APA or address the policy in place at the time appear to have been ignored.

3) The APA team leader was a Line Officer. There are no qualification standards to lead an APA, or an official accident investigation, except to be a Line Officer. Did the Line Officer even understand what an APA was? Provide the documentation of training and experience in this.

4) Look at the APA team composition. What was the knowledge base of the team members? And how did they get selected? What was the position of the most qualified Fire Operations SME.

5) The APA appears to have been an Investigation, disguised by an APA.

6) The Chalk Fire APA team leader is now the Forest Supervisor on the BDF. This is just a statement of fact.

7) Why was an APA selected to address the accident? A formal accident investigation was the most appropriate method to determine the facts.

Last, it is time to address Serious Accident Investigation Teams that are not led by a Line Officer or Senior Official, consisting of team members who have zero investigative background or training. The world of investigations has changed. It is time for permanent full time investigators to become the standard of wildland fire accident investigations. Could anyone imagine an aircraft accident investigation being led by a person with no background supported by a team of experts who have no background in investigation.

Irony

Comrades,

I have been tasked with teaching during the yearly OPS refresher this year. I am teaching the Wildland Urban Interface Operating Principals block. I would like to present something fresh. I have had no luck finding anything that is current and relevant. If anyone has a lead on a PPT or video I would appreciate the help.

Thanks,
R5

If federal fire was to centralize into "the U.S. Fire Service" or something of that nature. What color would the engines be? Red, White with a red stripe, Forest Green, BLM yellow, Red, White and Blue, all of the above?

sign me,
fun in the sun.

NWRG,

I believe you misinterpreted the intent of my pointing out key phrases. It was to highlight certain terms in order to show the conflict with the next paragraph. However, to avoid an argument of what I said/meant, I'd like to spur the conversation a little deeper.

If an ember lands on a building, you emphatically stated you don't just stand there and watch it burn because the following statement applies: and the extinguishing of spot fires near or on the structure when safe and practical.

My question to you then is: At what point does the ember begin to propagate and make the following statement apply? Firefighters will not take direct suppression action on structure, vehicle, dumpster, trash, or landfill fires.

In the essence of time, I'm sure most folks would immediately respond that the fireline handbook says when 1/4 or more of the roof is involved AND the suppression of said "ember" (that is now 1/4 of the roof), is tactically advantageous.

So if I'm a captain and I have my crew laying hose and performing direct attack through someone's back yard and someone yells "SPOT!!" Only the "spot" is on the roof of a house. The house is 2000 sq. ft. and my best guess is that about 500 sq. ft. are involved. It is blowing embers across the line so we attack the roof. Are we doing what's right? Are we doing the right thing? Are we operating under the principles of doctrine? Absolutely!!! ...to all 3 questions

BUT: Are we operating under policy? Well now that's a new ball of wax. I guess we are, as long as no one gets hurt, but heaven forbid if someone stubs their toe on the sidewalk because the fact that there was policy (not principle) that stated we were not to do what we did, THAT will be the cause of the injury. THAT will be the reason why I now have to defend myself. Even if I'm vindicated 2 years later. The last 2 years will have been the most trying, stressful, nerve wracking 2 years of my life. Every time the phone rings, I can rest assured that it is NOT an agency defense team coming to my rescue; because I was out of policy... I am on my own.

We all need to familiarize ourselves with the "new" risk management principles being taught across the nation by NIMO teams. There is a document titled " Foundation and Key Aspects of the Protocol for Implementing Risk Management". I don't believe I've seen it here, someone can correct me, but I'll find a link or scan a copy and meet you back here and we can take this conversation to a whole new level in risk versus gain, principle versus policy decisions.

DS

In 24 hours, we had two individuals agree, too much “written stuff.” Mission Accomplished! Mission confusion continues and now what happens when something goes wrong?

Joat, thanks for acknowledging that documents conflict. Simply, that was my intent. Together, let's us take the conversation to the next level, which is what happens with all this conflicting direction after the negative event occurs.

First, we should acknowledge this statement. You said,

these conflicting documents almost support the Doctrine principle in a round-a-bout way

– I really need to take in this statement in for a while, in the hope I find some merit with it. Right now, I am having trouble finding it. Conflicting direction in any profession is a distraction. Distractions lead to unproductive activities and accidents. It does not matter if you work on an assembly line or hold a drip torch, manage an insurance firm, or perform as an Incident Commander. Conflicting direction, leads one to be hesitant, lack confidence, be unproductive and be prone to an accident.

If your integrity is solid, then your justifications will be too

– I agree. We apply this daily. However, take your quote and apply it to what happens in a negative situation. Add in some conflicting direction, and see what comes out……….

Read the Chalk Fire APA (925 K pdf). This was an engine rollover in 2008. SIX times within that APA is a reference to a letter, “direction”, signed May 22, 2006 by the R-5 Regional Forester. This letter provided direction on engine staffing requirements of individuals. The letter was one of the foundational documents the APA team used to build “conclusions” and “recommendations.” Within two of those SIX references, the APA team wrote:

The Driver and Acting Captain were not in compliance with the qualification requirements unique to the following: May 22, 2006 letter.

Both Driver and Acting Captain were not adhering to the Regional letter of direction set forth in May 22, 2006.

The problem was the May 22, 2006 letter of direction was superseded about 60 days later, more than two years before the accident, by another letter on engine staffing requirements.

Both the Driver and the Acting Captain were in compliance with the new letter of direction. Now we have an APA written by an APA team that was officially sanctioned by the region, with incorrect statements about these young men. Fortunately, this was an APA and not an investigation. However, Joatmon, this is where you are correct; although it is not fun being told, “You were not in compliance,” or “you did not adhere to,” their integrity would have won out in the end. Keep in mind, however, that the path to redemption is not a fun path at times.

I heard the APA team members did go back and correct the APA. Once again, a WLF.com forum follower caught the error and exposed it a few days after the APA was released. I know these APA members did not walk around with this letter waiting for an accident to occur. What troubles me is someone at a higher level probably handed this invalid letter to the APA team as a reference.

The moral of the story is that as an agency we are obviously struggling with rules and regulation implementation, doctrine implementation and getting to a point where our policy and direction is clear and concise. Have you ever seen an emergency service organization with this much mission conflict going on? Organizational change needed?

We need less policy writers and interpreters and more visionaries. Speaking of vision, as Leo said:

“I never questioned the integrity of an umpire. Their eyesight, yes.” – Leo Durocher.

Letterman

DS, Letterman

There aren't too many things written that have absolute meaning that everyone would agree on. So I guess I don't agree with the the notion that there is a huge contradiction among directives that DS posted or that we can develop unquestionable written directives based on a crystal clear intent.
Let's look at those directives again starting with the third:

"Firefighters will not take direct suppression action on structure, vehicle, dumpster, trash, or landfill fires."

Well why not?

"Structure, vehicle, and landfill fire suppression is not a functional responsibility of wildland fire resources. These fires have the
potential to emit high levels of toxic gases." (and blow-up, etc)

OK there are the answers: First; functional responsibility, Second; SAFETY. (and NWCG wildland fire training does not include those types of firefighting training)

Those answers would probably be enough to satisfy everybody, until one of us asked the question, " So, there I am protecting the structure using 'standard wildland fire suppression tactics and control methods' and a burning ember lands on the roof and starts to burn. Do I let it burn because we don't take direct structure suppression actions?"

Hell no! So somebody in management heard us and added a point of clarification; "and the extinguishing of spot fires near or on the structure when safe and practical."

DS wants us to notice the words, "on the structure". I think we must focus on the words, "when safe and practical". Isn't that our overall crystal clear intent; Everybody goes home safely?

Bottom line: There is so much written stuff out there that we can find lots of apparent conflicts. If you think there is some conflict in wording that could get you in trouble, discuss it with your supervisor. If you're still worried about being set up, or that you won't make a decision that is safe and practical, apply the fundamental concept of "Safety First" and stay in bed.

Respectfully

NWRG

Letterman,

I would definitely say that the conflicting verbiage in our documents are a prime example of poor oversight and an overall lack of understanding at the highest levels in relation to the arena of Wildland Fire suppression that the USFS currently resides in. That being said, would you take a moment to consider that the specific conflicting policy you are referring to actually does not back you into a corner but more realistically gives you the latitude to be justified while making the best decision you can? The poor oversight and understanding of what the realities are have now given you the ability to engage or defend based on what you feel to be most appropriate.... and you can reference either policy to back yourself up....

If your integrity is solid, then your justifications will be too.... and these conflicting documents almost support the Doctrine principle in a round-a-bout way... :)

Just a thought,

Joatmon

At first when I posted on 2/4 there was no response I thought maybe I was just overreacting. The only question I still have is to the insurance folks, "how would this all stand up in court'?

26 days left but still care.

Be safe always, they're only bushes and they grow back.

JS

Thank You everyone who came to Gabe's Memorial. Summer and the family were greatly pleased and honored with your presence.

Kathleen and Jody Smith

Just short of two years later, three Klamath Hot Shots were vindicated of any wrongdoing in the accident that happened in the summer of 2009.

TwoMas

DS, exactly, you're exactly right. The Forest Service is backing themselves and Firefighters into a corner. Direction is coming from every direction now regarding all-risk incidents and issues, mostly conflicting with curve-balls.

More policy direction is due out any day which is probably in response to the chatter in our forum from last month.

More contradictory direction is not what we need. What we need is a fire organization that is free to establish policy and procedures without fear of Line Officer retaliation. Policy that is rooted with crystal clear intent, within the law and without creating more questions, and second guessing. We can no longer work with what is going on. One chapter of the Redbook says one thing, another chapter says something different, and then we have the 5100 manual saying something totally different.

It's hilarious that they reference the doctrine in every policy definition and explanation, but fail to apply the doctrine in every policy definition and explanation.

Fight the all risk fire and/or provide medical assistance up to level of training for incidents within the forest boundary, do not usurp local authority, assist as trained and needed, do it safely, go home, AAR, get ready for the next one.
One sentence, done.

We don't need a freaking library of reference material on this.

DS, I applaud your post.

Letterman

Contradict much??
Redbook CHPT 5:

Using principles requires judgment in application, while adherence to rules does not. In combination, principles and rules guide our fundamental wildland fire suppression practices and behaviors, and are mutually understood at every level of command

Structure Protection Definition
Actions taken in advance of a fire reaching structures or other improvements are intended to safely prevent the fire from damaging or destroying these values at risk. For the Forest Service, structure protection involves the use of standard wildland fire suppression tactics and control methods; including the use of standard equipment, fire control lines, and the extinguishing of spot fires near or on the structure when safe and practical.

Notice the words "on the structure"

and further on in CHPT 5:

The Forest Service shall not:
• Take direct suppression actions on structures other than those that tactically reduce the threat of fire spread to them.

So it's OK if it is tactically advantageous.

Now from CHPT 11 of the very same book that quotes doctrine and states direction will be clear and mutually understood by all levels of command...

Structure, Vehicle, Dumpster, Trash, and Landfill Fires
Firefighters will not take direct suppression action on structure, vehicle, dumpster, trash, or landfill fires. Structure, vehicle, and landfill fire suppression is not a functional responsibility of wildland fire resources. These fires have the potential to emit high levels of toxic gases. {DUH!!! So don't put them out, you might reduce the amount of said toxic gasses!!} This policy will be reflected in suppression response plans.

Are we all in mutual understanding now? Am I to use principles when I decide which chapter to use, or rules which directly contradict each other?

DS

Other media reports of fires across the US in that "Morning Brief" section as well.

Ab.

Not just jumpers, but most firefighters (fire specialists, helicopter managers, overhead, village and shot crews) in Alaska get Fresh Food Boxes after a few days into a fire. As stated earlier there are few roads for a contractor to set up food catering, so it is necessary. With that said, yes, it is very expensive, yes time is taken away from fighting the fire to cook your own meal, and yes they are sometimes used in areas where a caterer should be used (road system).

JTD

I've got a really bad taste in my mouth, gotta go. Sleep well

Sick at Heart

Hi All,

I am auctioning an amazing 84” x 84” quilt to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Bids will be accepted through March 31st and all proceeds from the auction will go to the Foundation. The quilt was made by my Aunt, Becky Price, and includes fire and fire module t-shirts that were kindly donated by several TheySaid readers. You can see pictures of the quilt and place a bid on it at wffquilt.com. Along with the photos there is also a FLYER that you can print out and post.

Thank you!

Cara Scott, Eldorado NF

Beautiful and meaningful. Ab.

Wow! Thank you for that National Geographic YouTube video. Ab.

That Florida FF that got second degree burns to his face... his hose stream hit a hot patch, and it blew steam back into his face.

Sign me:

Be careful out there.

What are they eating? Food, my friend. I looked at the link and can't figure out from it, what this contract is referring to. Having been there, you don't get out of your bag and stand in line for a catered meal. You either cook a can of beans for breakfast... maybe an instant oatmeal, and maybe, if you are lucky, after 3 days, when you get fresh food, a cheese sandwich.... and again for evening supper. This goes on for days and weeks, with no showers, no pubs down the road, and no Pizza Hut. Not sure what your point was, but AK jumpers do eat MRE's, and a lot of them. Think about that next time you are standing in line for a meal at fire camp... a meal that has been "contracted" to provide you with all of the calories, and nutrients that a white coat scientist determined.... Then think of trying to prepare that for yourself over a campfire each day. Think about instead of a bag lunch provided to you before you left fire camp, you had to have a tin of smoked oysters and a pouch of freeze dried coffee, because that was all that was left after 5 days.

Not getting down on you. But this is another example of an opinion expressed with very little (specific) knowledge to back it up. Smokejumpers are firefighters. That's it. They don't think they are so special that they get special food. It's food.

KP

1. “An army marches on its stomach”.
2. No one in Alaska; jumpers, legs, overhead, are expected to subsist solely on MREs.
3. As noted below, all fire personnel are provided fresh food boxes every few days to supplement MREs
4. Jumpers often move from fire to fire in the space of a few days, and therefore often miss the fresh food boxes.
5. Fresh food boxes are expensive, and expensive to deliver. Once delivered, their contents cannot re-enter the supply chain. If the ham that has been in the permafrost freezer isn't eaten by demobe time, it is either thrown away or hopefully left to someone in the nearest village/town. Conversely, the sardines, etc. in the jumpers goodie boxes can, and are, recycled and used later.
6. The system wasn't developed to treat jumpers to a “better” deal than others, but rather to address the realities of fire operations/support in Ak.

maprocker

Since there are seldom fire camps as we are used to here in America (tongue in cheek), the jumpers in AK and others are often given fresh food boxes to cook themselves in the bush. I can only imagine that the steak those fellows eat up there cooked on a camp fire by themselves, is a world cheaper than the end product that comes from the caterers trailer down here. Perhaps your post was meant as a jab at the jumpers, maybe it was an item where you thought we could save costs? Regardless, AK fire duty is not a cake walk, I feel that those folks are constantly faced with short tours, budget cuts, and lack of amenities we take for granted here in the lower 48. Let us support our fellow fire folk, not bring them down with undeserved scrutiny.

007

Out on the federal contracting side... interesting, and tasty.

What ever happened to MREs for all?

fedconnect.net

Yours,
Walnut

3rd line down? Ab.

GA Peach

Just found this. Ab.
www.msnbc.msn.com

Firefighter injured battling central Florida wildfires
Blaze burns 16,000 acres; state of emergency declared in Brevard County

SCOTTSMOOR, Fla. — A firefighter was injured Tuesday while battling fast-moving wildfires engulfing some 16,000 acres along Florida's central Atlantic coast.

Stiff winds were spreading the flames and smoke in a mostly rural stretch of Brevard County, located about 50 miles east of Orlando, and extending into Volusia County to the north. The blaze is 25 percent contained, authorities said.

The injured firefighter was among 120 state and local firefighters working to contain the blaze, using 4 aircraft and 10 heavy dozers among other equipment. He was flown by helicopter to a trauma hospital. The exact natures of his injuries was unclear but NBC's Kerry Sanders said the water from his hose hit a very hot patch and the steam blew back into his face. He was identified as Matt Wescott, 22, a volunteer with the Mims Volunteer Fire Department.

fair use disclaimer

What saddens me nearly as much as his passing is the resistance so far by many in upper management to support his memorial service monetarily. What.. he wasn't killed in the line of duty? What.. the new policy says so?

So what.

Until now I hung on to the dream that Forest Service was family, I thought management cared about its people, that's what they tell us all of the time, well fella's, here was your big hotline assignment, and you blew it. Sleep well. As for the rest of you who believe that we are still a family...I will see you at this great man's memorial on Friday.

PS: 51 Club, Where are you with this?

Sick at Heart

Repost from several days ago. If we each send in $20, we can help. I'm sending in mine. Pass the boot! Ab.

Summer Pomona, Gabe's wife has requested assistance from the San Bernardino Family Support Group to solicit donations to cover the reception food expenses. If you wish to donate please make checks payable to the Gabe Pomona Memorial Fund and send your donations to:

First Mountain Bank in Big Bear
40865 Big Bear Blvd.
P.O. Box 6868
Big Bear Lake, CA 92315
Phone 909 866-5861

First Mountain Bank in Running Springs
2625 Whispering Pines Dr.
P.O. Box 90
Running Springs, CA 92382

First Mountain Bank in Lucerne Valley
32946 D Highway 18
P.O. Box 2100
Lucerne Valley, CA 92356

If you would like to donate Stater Bros. Markets gift cards please contact Family Support Group representative Julie DeAnda at Julie_deanda@yahoo.com or 909-557-8470.

KP