I was wondering,,, if something happened on a fire and the EMT did the best she or he could, and there were other circumstances so the injured person didn't get to the hospital and the person died, how might the EMT be blamed? What would be the grounds? What could even make it something that would be considered breaking the law or criminal actions? Manslaughter? I'm worried about this happening on a fire.

Say I do my best. I get blamed anyway?

I had hoped to help by getting my EMT. To be prepared. Now I'm worried that I might be at risk for getting tied up in legal stuff for up to 7 yr like Ellreese just for doing the best I can when it's hard to get patients to hospital during the "golden hour".

Should I let my EMT lapse? or choose to not use it? Do we all need PLI like the ICs now? Good grief, what's the world coming too???? People want to help. They want to be prepared when off in the woods in a risky environment. They do their best and after a death some "Justice Dpt" or "Law" people decide the EMT is to blame! Even if we're innocent there could be years of anxiety anguish uncertainty disruption head-tripping post-traumatic-stress-nightmares just because somebody thought there was something "criminal" because someone dies and someone or something has to be held accountable like the world is black and white???

Noname EMT

Here's another excellent piece: What Was He Thinking? (4,854K 63p doc file)
a long human factors article written by Mike Johns (Asst U.S. Attorney) in 2007
following Esperanza. He discusses cognitive biases, attribution errors, thinking
processes involved in judging causation, responsibility and blame, etc.

I'm going to have to take some time and read this again.

Thanks to those who are sharing their own accounts, thank you!
I appreciate the first-hand stories of what firefighters do and don't remember
following a stressful incident. Since it's so painful, people often don't talk
about the bad experience and talking is often the way to healing. As a result others
don't know what's normal or how to deal with flash-backs, dreams and a bunch
of other normal but scary physical responses that may occur, sometimes years
after the event.

Mellie

Don’t look now, but your hindsight bias is showing. You seem to have fallen for Agent Parker’s still very UNPROVEN assertions that Ellreese lied about his actions at Thirtymile, so therefore was guilty of trying to hide his own mistakes that contributed to the fatalities. I think there is a far more plausible and less sinister answer as to why there are conflicts among the Thirtymile firefighters witness statements.

You could start by putting events in their proper context.

Don’t forget that NWR Crew 6 crewpersons had all worked the previous day, had maybe a couple of hours of rest, then traveled the rest of the night and worked all day on a tough fire. The investigation report equated their sleep-deprived condition to a .10 blood alcohol level, or legally drunk. How reliable do you think ANY of the firefighters statements are given that what they were seeing and hearing was filtered through their handicapped mental state?

You (and Agent Parker) ought to know better than to expect everyone’s witness statements to exactly line up following a traumatic event such as this. I actually find it remarkable that there are so many statements within the criminal complaint that corroborate Ellreese’s version of events.

Witness statements acknowledge that Ellreese yelled and gestured at one firefighter to come down, that Ellreese expressed to other firefighters that the road was probably the best place to be, that Ellreese told firefighters to get shelters out and to “cover your buddies,” etc.

The criminal complaint cherrypicked the evidence against Ellreese to attempt to portray that he had a careless indifference to safety. When viewed in totality, the Thirtymile Fire Investigation Report reveals that significant management failures outside of Ellreese’s control also contributed to the overall outcome. The complaint makes it seem as though only Ellreese made errors in judgment. And there is a large difference between being carelessly indifferent to the safety of others and making honest errors in judgment.

The Thirty Mile abatement plan is a laundry list of admitted management failures. For instance, work-rest guidelines were revised because of Thirtymile. Working at the time under the old rules, Ellreese and crew were attempting to make important decisions in a sleep-deprived state that would have severely impaired their abilities to maintain good situational awareness and make good decisions.

Another post Thirtymile management change is the restriction that personnel cannot simultaneously be a crew boss and IC. That sort of “duty shifting” of roles was common before Thirtymile, and was found to be a contributing factor in this case. The fact that he was essentially pressured into accepting simultaneous roles as ICT3/CRWB/trainer cannot be construed as Ellreese’s failure, this was a management failure.

The complaint reveals a blatant hindsight bias in its interpretation of events. The “Lessons from the Thirtymile Fire” training program was created in response to the Thirtymile Abatement Plan’s mandate to share lessons learned from this incident. Entrapment Avoidance training and entrapment reaction drills only came about after Thirtymile. Again, these programs were developed after recognition that this area was lacking before Thirtymile.

Post-Thirtymile Fireline Leadership training and post-Cramer ICT3 simulation evaluations are additional belated acknowledgements that agencies had also previously neglected teaching basic leadership and communication concepts. Ellreese and company did not have the benefit of hindsight and leadership training/evaluation specifically designed to help improve leadership and communications during stressful circumstances like entrapments.

The complaint undercuts its own case throughout with statements meant to bolster the prosecution’s interpretation that Ellreese lied to cover his failings. I saw many indications that Ellreese did attempt to communicate with the people on the rocks and expressed concern that everyone would be better off on the road. Ellreese is a very soft spoken individual and does not have a forceful personality. I very much believe that in his own mind, he feels he did these things.

Remember, this was an extremely sleep-deprived person who was dealing with a troublesome fire and some strong-willed individuals in his charge. The other crewmembers were also sleep deprived and distracted by fear and side-events, so their attention span and memory of what actually transpired is also suspect. And even though the firefighters had been watching the fire advance up canyon toward them, everyone at the upper site was surprised by the suddenness and severity of the event’s onslaught.

Errors in judgment should not be construed as indicators of carelessness or bad character. When you take into account that many of the key players were operating under a severe sleep deficit and experiencing extreme stress, it is not surprising that errors were made and that people have different recollections of specific events.

At the time of the Thirtymile Fire, no training or method existed for helping firefighters determine the size and location of safety zones in various fuel and terrain conditions, and which locations might be especially vulnerable to firewhirls and convective heat and/or gases. The guidelines in the Interagency Response Pocket Guide are for radiant heat only. How can Ellreese be faulted for not being able to predict something that fire behavior experts still are unable to define? The effects and range of convective gases and heat in relation to determining safety zone size and location is still largely guesswork based on experience. And as we saw again this past summer, firewhirls can emerge from nowhere and rapidly cross open ground independently from the main fire.

Although the Interagency Response Pocket Guide contains safety zone size specifications for protection from radiant heat, guidelines for protection from convective gas/heat and firewhirls still do not exist today. The firefighters at Thirtymile undoubtedly experienced an unusual fire phenomena that is still not completely understood.

After the entrapment, Ellreese’s biggest error was underestimating how severely the down canyon crownfire would impact their location, and consequently failing to make deployment preparations. Once the situation became deadly, there was really no opportunity for Ellreese to direct the actions of firefighters and civilians. People simply reacted wherever they were when the heat wave struck and deployed.

I still have an unforgettable memory from my first visit to the Thirtymile fatality site. As I looked around, I realized that had I been in their place, I very likely would have determined that anywhere in the general van/road/rock scree area would be survivable without a shelter. And so I very well might have made the same judgment as Ellreese, that the fire would not heavily impact them and so would also have been caught unprepared.

I wouldn’t make the same choice today if I was caught in a similar situation. Based on what I learned from Thirtymile, I would prep for the worst and get everyone ready for a shelter deployment. But I have the benefit of hindsight.

Misery Whip

aerial photo of Thirtymile fatality site
more photos: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/30mi/30mi.htm

Also good is this Lessons Learned training from MTDC: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/MTDC_Lessons/index.htm Ab.

Our community thanks you and applauds your efforts, Tina. You did a wonderful job. Ab.

BLMboy

HUMAN FACTORS:

People who are under stress following a burnover, death or other accident do not remember accurately. Adrenalin (epinepherine) prevents short term memory from being consolidated (at the hippocampus) into long term memory, that can then be recalled accurately. On average without excess adrenalin (and with adequate sleep) we can hold 4 to 7 bits of information in short term memory at one time (phone numbers began as 7 digits for a reason; LCES is effective as a mnemonic). Remembering long term is another process. If we chunk bits of info together, we can remember more like the a,b,c song; or we can use other memory aids like storytelling to remember, say, the 10 rules of engagement/ disengagement plus the 18 watchouts for a test. Long term memory may degrade with time if not used or reviewed somehow.

What about perception? We perceive reality in sound bites as we "see" it through our own history of experiences, preconceptions, and biases. We fill in the gaps between the "sound bites" with what we think is the most likely and logical interpretation of what goes there, given our past experience. It's a seamless ongoing process that we perceive as continuous, but it's not. We think we know "reality", but we only know slices of it.

As time goes on, we recall events less and less accurately. This means you might not answer exactly consistently over time.

If you do not answer consistently and correctly due to filling in the blanks in your memory with your best guess, you may end up "lying" and you don't even know that's what you're doing. (Maybe Ellreese filled in this way when he said he told the firefighters on the scree to come to the road?)

from Mellie's post on 8/18

I am not convinced he knew he lied. I'm reposting some of Mellie's stress psychologist comments from 8/18 above your post. "Lying" by definition implies a true and a false, black and white, without the human organism involved in the process. Under stress what is seen/heard/spoken and recalled by a human being can have alternative "human factors" explanations as Mellie would say "due to physiological processing". Many members of the public who have not been burned over or shot at or studied/observed human responses under stress see only in black and white. They have no experience of grey, of mental gaps, of deer in the headlights trying to make sense of what they just experienced. Ab.

"After dropping manslaughter charges against the crew boss of four firefighters who died in the Thirtymile Fire near Winthrop, a federal prosecutor has assigned a motive to why Ellreese Daniels lied to investigators after the fatal 2001 wildfire. Daniels, 47, of Lake Wenatchee, wanted to save his firefighting career, according to Assistant U.S. Attorney Tom Hopkins."

"Mr. Daniels lied to investigators for the purpose of shifting responsibility for the deaths of the four firefighters to others, to include the victims, in an effort to save his career," his court document states. It later adds that deployment of fire shelters triggers an automatic investigation, and, "In a profession where success, courage, and image are important, Mr. Daniels wanted to avoid an unnecessary deployment that could hurt his standing among his peers and reduce his prospects for choice assignments and promotion."

I would like to go on record by replying WHAT A BUNCH OF HOG SWILL! The mere fact that Mr. Hopkins can get away with publicly debasing a US Forest Service Incident Commander in federal court for THE CRIME OF BEING SLEEP DEPRIVED AND UNDERESTIMATING EXTREME FIRE BEHAVIOR without being vehemently rebutted by our supposed "leaders" is a sad comment on the present sorry state of our culture. Unfortunately, the only area in which the Forest Service wildland fire culture seems to be showing improvement is our ability to orchestrate inspiring firefighter memorials.

I would also like to express my admiration for the way the Craven family has responded throughout this ordeal. Big Smooth, your family and the other Thirtymile families have my deepest respect and sympathies.

Misery Whip

Do any of us fight fire more safely as a result of this 7 yr process?

Are we supposed to feel relieved for Ellreese not going to jail? All I feel is
anger at what he's gone through for these years and the knowledge it could have
been me not anticipating the extreme fire behavior. Specially since extreme fire
behavior seems to be happening more often.

Do we trust our agency to try to do the right thing for someone like any
one of us doing his job as best possible?
Did we ever?
I remember trusting more...

Wow, all I seem to have when I think about it and the future of firefighting is
sour stomach and acid reflux, and I even have PLI.

Siski Sam

PLI=Professional Liability Insurance, not a medical condition. Ab.

Hotlist thread

Ellreese won't serve any time but will spend 90 days on work release and
3 yr on probation for making false statements to authorities.

Ab.

OK. here's a news report: www.kndo.com

R5VetFF

Thanks. We also usually hear from Tina Hunt, Ellreese's lawyer who has done an excellent job on a complex and precedent setting case, of course with the help of many wildland firefighters across the nation.
THANK YOU TINA HUNT! Ab.

His only crime is that he didn't have a lawyer in his back pocket when this started and he didn't know he needed one. Unfortunately, we've lost many good Type 3 ICs who decided to move on from fire or from the FS and it's clear we do not have a Just Culture, even though we're now trying to work toward that. Ab.

• There but for some kind of grace or luck or fate... potentially goes any one of us who's faced the dragon as carefully as we can but not good enough.
• You know we've all had near misses as fire behavior changes unexpectedly.
• You know we've all operated under too little sleep.
• You know we've all done the best we can under the changing circumstances on the ground with the experience and training we have...
• You know many of us have dealt with the distractions of a Mark 3 pump.

Awful to think any one of us could suffer the years of this hanging over our head and go to jail for doing our job as best we can... after having our people die... which is sentence to a strange kind'a hell all its own.

AL

www.yakima-herald.com/stories/6862

Sentencing Wednesday signals official close of Thirtymile fire tragedy
by Mark Morey
Yakima Herald-Republic

Ellreese Daniels, the incident commander charged for the deaths of four Central Washington firefighters at the Thirtymile fire, is set to be sentenced Wednesday.

More than seven years after the deaths, the sentencing at U.S. District Court in Spokane will be one of the last formal steps associated with the Thirtymile saga.

Killed at Thirtymile were firefighters Tom Craven, Karen FitzPatrick, Jessica Johnson and Devin Weaver. Weaver, 21, Johnson, 19, and FitzPatrick, 18, were from Yakima; Craven, 30, lived in Ellensburg.

The four died July 10, 2001, while battling a blaze ignited by an unattended campfire. They were trapped by flames when an inferno swept over them on a dead-end road along the Chewuch River in the Okanogan National Forest.

Another Yakima firefighter, Jason Emhoff, was burned, and a pair of Thorp campers, Bruce and Paula Hagemeyer, were trapped with the crew.

Investigations by the U.S. Forest Service and the Yakima Herald-Republic found that a series of supervisors did not take steps they should have, including selection of a safe escape route.

Some of the victims' relatives will always believe that Daniels should have faced a trial on the original manslaughter charges. Instead, he pleaded guilty to two counts of making false statements to investigators.

Firefighters from across the country have voiced support for Daniels.

While they mourn the tragic loss of their colleagues at Thirtymile, many do not feel that Daniels deserved to face criminal charges. He was the only one prosecuted in the case, the first time the federal government has ever sought such charges in a fireline death.

Daniels could face a maximum standard sentence of six months in federal prison. Prosecutors have indicated they will ask for four months; his defense attorney wants probation.

Daniels' attorney, public defender Tina Hunt of Spokane, argues in her sentencing brief to Judge Fred Van Sickle that probation is more appropriate than prison under the circumstances. Unusual fire behavior and terrain were responsible for the deaths, Hunt said, contending that Daniels never meant to act negligently.

Hunt said the case has already cast a pall over the federal fire service. Firefighters now must wonder whether they will face prosecution for decisions made in the dangerous, rapidly evolving environment of a wildland fire. (more at the link above)

Hotlist thread

All,

Please make a note that Judge Van Sickle has changed the time and date of
Ellreese's sentencing from Monday, the 18th, to Wed. 8/20 at 10 a.m. in
Spokane.

Tina

I know Ellreese would be very appreciative of our support for him at this critical time.  Please feel free to send this message to others who have worked with Ellreese or have knowledge of the strange twist in the Thirtymile fire behavior.   Thank you!

Margi Peterson

Thank you,

Heather M.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We just received word that the sentencing hearing for Ellreese has been
moved to August 18. The hearing is scheduled to begin at 10:00 and Tom
Hopkins is expecting it to last several hours.

Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
215 Melody Lane
Wenatchee, WA 98801

Thanks Heather. Ab.

The court gave us his order today with the trial date schedules. I thought
most of you would like to know what that schedule is, so I've attached his
order.

Tina

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/law/OrderTrialSchedule[4-22-08].pdf  (39 K pdf file small)

Text:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON

TRIAL SCHEDULE

THIS MATTER is scheduled for trial beginning May 5, 2008 and
ending July 2, 2008. Counsel shall meet with the Court in chambers at
8:30 a.m. on the first day of trial. Jury Selection will begin at
10:00 a.m. Trial will be held each day from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
and from 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. excluding the following days: May 9,
May 16, May 22, May 23, May 26, June 5, June 6, June 20, and June 23 -
27.

IT IS SO ORDERED. The District Court Executive is hereby
directed to enter this order and furnish copies to counsel.
DATED this 22nd day of April, 2008.
s/ Fred Van Sickle
United States District Judge

Thanks Tina. Free Ellreese. Ab.

Here's what Becki Forest-Supervisor (on the Wenatchee- Okanogan NFs)
said on 4/14 theysaid post from Gorge FMO:

I plan on attending as much of the trial as possible. When I’m not
there, my representative will be. I will wear my uniform proudly in
support of all employees and the Agency. I have identified a few
employees that will serve a variety of roles in an official capacity at
the trial, including keeping you informed of the proceedings. Others
interested in attending can do so on their own time, not in an official
capacity, with the use of leave pre-approved by their supervisor.

She may be there in an official capacity, though.

Mellie

The Free Ellreese page is up to date again...

Here is a letter from the Forest Supervisor on the Wenatchee- Okanogan NF's
on the upcoming trial for Ellreese Daniels, Thirty Mile ICT3. We need to
keep him in our thoughts as the trial approaches.

GorgeFMO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okanogan-Wenatchee Employees:

The trial of our employee Ellreese Daniels is scheduled to begin May 5.
He was indicted by a grand jury on four counts of involuntary
manslaughter and seven counts of making false statements based on
actions in his role as crew boss during the Thirtymile tragedy in 2001.
I struggle with the reality of criminal charges against one of our own
employees. I was not here in 2001, but today I feel the anxiety and
fears of the firefighting community. I am also deeply saddened at the
loss families experienced. Yet, in the midst of this swirl of strong
emotion, we must go on.

I intend to support Ellreese by ensuring I do not interfere with a fair
and speedy trial. All we can do for the families, employees and the
American public is cooperate with the defense and prosecution by
providing knowledgeable witnesses to testify honestly and truthfully.
Then, let the justice system work based on the facts of the case. In
the end, the judge and jury will decide the outcome of the trial.

This case will likely generate national media interest. If you want to
speak with the media, then it is critical that you emphasize to them
that you are speaking for yourself, as an individual, on you own time,
not for the Forest Service or in any official capacity. It is your
choice as an individual, representing your personal views to speak to a
reporter. I offer this thought though. Ask yourself, “How will my
comments influence the ability of the court to provide a fair and speedy
trial”? If you are asked to comment as a Forest Service employee, please
refer that request to Glen Sachet (503-808-2790) in the Regional Office.

Some of you will testify as witnesses for the defense or prosecution, or
you will know someone who is testifying. The emotions of the tragedy may
return. Don’t hesitate to talk with your line or staff officer, union
representative, or contact the Employee Assistance Program for help.

I plan on attending as much of the trial as possible. When I’m not
there, my representative will be. I will wear my uniform proudly in
support of all employees and the Agency. I have identified a few
employees that will serve a variety of roles in an official capacity at
the trial, including keeping you informed of the proceedings. Others
interested in attending can do so on their own time, not in an official
capacity, with the use of leave pre-approved by their supervisor.

Maureen Hanson, Bobbie Scopa and I will be holding meetings at HQ and
the Districts next week to discuss the upcoming trial and answer
employee questions.

Finally, this has been and will continue to be a very emotional time.
Please be sensitive and understanding of the feelings of others around
you, and take extra care of yourselves.

Sincerely,

Becki

I met with Ellreesse's Federal Public Defender Tina Hunt here in
Missoula on Thursday: she seems well prepared for the May 5th trial
date, and hopes that the Judge will approve a site visit for the jurors.
We talked about many of the issues that are well known to all of us, as
well as some tactics and qualifications issues.
Tina still expects a 6+ week long trial.
There will be lots of witnesses, especially on the Government side,
telling their stories about what they saw, heard, were told,
experienced. The 10/18 will be an important focus!
Maybe by July 1st, we'll have a clearer picture of the impacts of this
attempted mis-carriage of justice.
Tina was highly complimentary of many of the R-6 Fire Overhead that she
has interviewed.
She encouraged firefighter attendance in support of Ellreese at the
trial, yellow Nomex shirts and all!
Keep the Faith!

Dick Mangan

Thanks for the info, Dennise. We're in support, as you can see. Ab.

Ab,

Trial was moved to April 14, 2008. Right now it appears we're on track for
that trial date.

T

Dick Mangan

2/21/07
Survey reveals fears on fire line: One in four firefighters say they won't serve

2/20/07
Survey -- firefighters less willing to take charge

2/15/07
Friends help fund fire boss\'s defense: Organizers hope many will show their support for accused Thirtymile supervisor

1/31/07
Thirtymile Fire boss sees trial as a chance to clear his name: 'Other people could be held accountable,' Daniels' lawyer says

1/26/07
Thirtymile fire crew boss charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter

1/5/07
Fed case called \'travesty of justice\': Daniels' defense attorney blasts charges against fire crew boss

12/27/06
Thirtymile criminal case: Critics -- Filing charges was a mistake

12/21/07
Thirtymile fire boss faces charges: Forest Service supervisor accused of causing deaths

12/20/06
Crew boss charged with negligence in deadly 2001 Washington state wildfire

"Additionally, this case calls for the extensive use of expert witnesses not only to consult with the defense regarding the case, but also potentially to present evidence on behalf of Mr. Daniels."

"Counsel has identified at least five potential areas of expertise which will need to be retained and used during the defense of this case."

"This case represents the first time a United States Forest Service employee has been charged in a criminal action arising from actions and decisions made during the scope of his duties fighting wildland fires. It is a case which may have far reaching implications to other firefighters engaged in the line of duty."

(The new trial is set for October 15th, in part to help the active wildland firefighters)
"...many witness who may be called to testify on both sides of this case are engaged in wildland firefighting. These firefighters can be called to travel to locations throughout the Western United States in response to large wildfires, which greatly reduces their availability."

Glad the judge understood the complexity issue. It really is an issue. Ab.

Hi all - for those of you who were planning to go to Spokane tomorrow, it's canceled, as the court authorized the continuance to the fall. The following is a note from Tina Hunt, Ellreese's defense attorney. Finally some good news from the court, making it a little bit easier on all involved.
Thank you,

Heather
_____________________________

3/12/07 4:38pm
The court has granted our motion to declare this case complex, and has canceled tomorrow's hearing. The pretrial conference is now scheduled for 9/25/07 at 9:00 a.m. (that time is subject to moving it later in the day) and the trial is set for 10/15/07.

Hopefully, this email will reach those who were planning on attending before tomorrow's hearing. If this can be posted on the appropriate website, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
Tina

TJ

3/7 It's been replaced with something more recent. How can he get a fair local trial? Ab.

Here's a note of encouragement to get as many people out to the Spokane Federal Courthouse in a show of support for Ellreese Daniels at his next court appearance for criminal charges. The next appearance is the Pre-Trial Hearing (where Defense Attorney Tina Hunt will ask for a continuance into fall). Tina emailed us this afternoon, regarding several questions. Here's some info:

1) Pre-trial Hearing is set for Tuesday March 13th at 3:00pm;
2) Location in Judge Van Sickle's court on the 9th floor;
3) Thomas Foley U.S. Federal Building at 920 West Riverside; Spokane WA;
4) Appropriate clothing, advice from Tina "I would say that those who come in support of Ellreese should dress in civilian clothes. I don't think it's necessary to come in Nomex or fireboots, and in fact, it could annoy the court."
5) If you are considering whether to make the trek or not, here's what Tina thinks "Again, I always believe it is helpful for the court and the government to know how many people are standing behind Ellreese in his support."

I hope to see at least three times the attendance as last time, I hope to see YOU there!

Thank you,
Heather A. Murphy, Retired USFS Wildlife Biologist, Friend and Colleague

www.wenatcheeworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1172690932-643-895

Ab, here is the article that was posted in the Wenatchee World.

SMJ

Attached is the February 15, 2007 Wenatchee World article about Ellreese's legal defense fund for the criminal charges at Thirtymile. Please note, there is a local reporter now covering Ellreese's plight. We are hoping to get more articles in the newspaper about the affect these charges have on the wildland firefighting community and the USFS in general.

www.wenworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1171568494-490-475

The story did not have the fund address, here it is if you would like to contribute:
Account No. 1000110690
Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund
Cashmere Valley Bank
PO Box 249
Leavenworth, WA. 98826

And I dropped more letters and cards off for Ellreese today, he truly appreciates this show of support, it brightens this stressful time. Thank you to all who have taken a moment to let him know you care about the difficult situation he is in. If you would like to send letters, here's the address:
Ellreese Daniels C/O
Wenatchee River Ranger District
600 Sherbourne
Leavenworth, Wa 98826

Thank you,
Heather
Retired USFS, Colleague and Friend

www.wenworld.com/sub/story.php?id=1171571693-646-747

Story from a Wenatchee World reporter who is now covering Ellreese locally, rather than using Yakima Herald for Associated Press.

HAM

PS - I heard there was a mail delivery difficulty for him.

-CITE-
   7 USC Sec. 2270b
-EXPCITE-
   Title 7 - AGRICULTURE
   CHAPTER 55 - DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
-READ-
   Sec. 2270b. Department of Agriculture Inspector General
   Investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths
-STATUTE-
   In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the
   Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover,
   The Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall
   conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall
   not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any
   investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest
   Service.
-SOURCE-
   (Pub. L. 107-203, Sec. 1, July 24, 2002, 116 Stat. 744.)

So there it is, IF the OIG used (relied on) any material(s) produced through
the Forest Service's investigation in order to conduct "his" own "independent
investigation", contrary to this statute, those materials should be deemed
to have been illegally obtained, ie, inadmissible.

Next step... I'm taking a wild stab at it that Special Agent Parker, et al, used
the work product of the Forest Service investigation in order to, at the very
least, have foundational information in order to proceed with their OIG
investigation. Under the "Fruits of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine, "any" evidence
gained through the use of illegally obtained evidence is deemed to ALSO be
inadmissible. If the OIG wasn't privy to, or didn't obtain, evidence and reports
through the proper manner(s), then any of the OIG case material gotten under
the guise of PL 107-203 mandate should stand to be suppressed through
pre-trial motion(s).

Additionally, Miranda, or more specifically lack thereof, might play an
interesting role in the admissibility of statements. In Vietnam, there was the
case of an NVA sniper who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He was
more of a nuisance than anything. The GI's decided to NOT hunt him down,
and instead put up with him, because they were worried that he'd get replaced
with someone who could really shoot. Yes, that one was for "you" Mr. Parker.

Hey! If any of you are able to attend Ellreese's court proceedings, "if" the
court makes a decision that the wearing of Nomex would appear prejudicial to
the jury, you might consider wearing a nice suit, along with your White's,
Drew's, or Nick's, etc. as an obvious but "lower key" show of support. I think
that the press would really run with that.

As always, Stay Safe!

"Kicks"

• Pre-trial: Have the Defense attorney get Parker to play the hot seat on a Tactical Decision Game / Sand Table Exercise as the Incident Commander of the fire. Since he is so knowledgeable about fire ground leadership and confident in Ellreese's guilt, what would he have done based on his experience, situational awareness and all of the dilemmas?
• Make sure all of the well documented distractions, human factors and "What if's" are thrown in by the facilitator/role players.
• Have the judge and each juror take turns in the hot seat.
• Have the jury participate in the Staff Ride that was developed for the fire. The whole thing can be reasonably re-created, even with the actual participants. They will see "things are not always what they seem" when reading an investigation report or 5 years later as memories soften.
• Maybe it's time for the Federal Fire Service to develop something similar to the Military's "Uniform Code of Military Justice" and their Courts Martial procedures.
• Shouldn't the jury be "of his peers"? Peer by definition: A person(s) who has equal standing with another or others, as in rank, class, or age. I could objectively hear the case and arrive at an unbiased decision. ( I have served twice on juries )
• There is too much at stake for Ellreese and the rest of the fire service, a new approach is needed

makes you think doesn't it?
a student of fire and leadership,

sting

"To provide for an independent investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths that are caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover."

However section 1(a) seems to expand the intent by stating:

"In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service due to wildfire entrapment or burnover..."

Inferences could be drawn that an investigation is required, not just with firefighter deaths, but those of others, perhaps fire ecologists and others. Again, the intent is vague.

Let's face it. The specificity of the law as relating to Forest Service employees demonstrates the intent of the legislation/law being to respond to the needs of the families lost on Thirty Mile. The fact that the legislation/law was written by Washington state congressional folks validates that point. However, given that this issue is even in criminal court should lead those from other land-management agencies to be wary of "motivated" overzealous prosecutors looking to make a name for themselves.

Therein lies one of the problems with this law... it was simply not well thought out and failed to look at the bigger picture.

The application of 107-203 to Thirty Mile "retroactively" is a concern,  as nowhere in the law does it authorize the legislation to be applied retroactively to Thirty Mile or any fire. Despite this lack of authority, the OIG Investigator clearly states his reliance on 107-203 to support his investigation into Thirty Mile.

The OIG Investigator also states that he worked "in concert" with the US Attorney's office and I believe you ask how that nexus developed.

The US Attorney's office is also relying on a less publicized statute (at least in the public commentary on Thirty Mile): this is Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 51 Homicide, Sec. 114 Protection of officers & employees of the United States and amended subsequent to 9/11.

This statute in part says

"Whoever kills or attempts to kill any officer or employee of the United States or of any agency in any branch of the United States Government (including any member of the uniformed services) while such officer or employee is engaged in or on account of the performance of official duties, or any person assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of such duties or on account of that assistance, shall be punished-

(1) in the case of murder, as provided under section 1111;
(2) in the case of manslaughter, as provided under section 1112; or
(3) in the case of attempted murder or manslaughter, as provided in section 1113

Let's not be naive. This law, amended post 9/11, is designed to focus on terrorists in this country or those who support such activities. To apply it in the case of Ellreese Daniels is unconscionable, irresponsible, an abuse of the law and stinks of political ambitions on the part of the US Attorney. At the very least, it is an extreme stretch to apply the intent of the law in the Thirty Mile case.

We have offered that assessment to the President and US Attorney Gonzalez in a letter last month. We also have corresponded with Phyllis Fong, USDA OIG on her department's "retroactive" application of 107-203; Mr. Parker's continual reference to his reliance on the Forest Service investigation ( a violation of the law) and actions which he continued to display while on the Esperanza scene.

Further, we have asked her department to define the parameters/policies/procedures it has developed to conduct such investigations under the law and have asked Congress to explain what its intent was in seeking a report from the USDA OIG's office, i.e. once they get such a report, what will they do with it.

All of this has led to the dialogue during last week's Senate Energy & Natural Resources Committee during which Sen. Domenici (R-NM) raised this issue and Mr. Mark Rey, answering for the Administration, offered concerns and recommendations... never mind the same concerns and recommendations the FWFSA took to the Forest Service 2 1/2 years ago and which fell on deaf ears.

So... hopefully this explains a bit on the application of the laws and how the US Attorney & OIG's office seem to be working together on this mess.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

"A legal defense and employee assistance fund has been established to provide financial support to Forest Service employees (current and former) who need assistance to respond to administrative and criminal charges."

Checks should be made out to "Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund"; put the account number (1000110690) on the check and send to:

Account No. 1000110690
Thirty-Mile Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund
Cashmere Valley Bank
PO Box 249
Leavenworth, WA. 98826

Special Note: for active USFS employees, please DO NOT distribute this fund-raising information within internal email systems, as it would be an inappropriate use of government equipment. That said, for those of us outside in the private sector, it would be OK for us to send to FS employees from our home/personal computers.

Thank you for considering helping Ellreese; having friends and support is an incredible force.

Take Care All,
Heather
Retired USFS
Private Citizen, Colleague and Friend

Being a federal employees we are not able to strike against the Federal Government, so let's strike against Washington State whenever they have a fire, since Washington State is the one that charged our firefighter.

We can thank the Forest Service and OES for the campers suing the Forest Service. Let's talk about making the case for them by charging our firefighter.

According to the Forest Service we are Forestry Technicians, not professional firefighters, so should a Forestry Technician be making the decisions a firefighter should be making? Therefore, should he be held accountable?

SGM

We can't strike against against anyone or any state. It's not the state's fault. I agree, how strange and demeaning to be called Forestry and Range Technicians... I hear your frustration.

I think

• if we continue to get the word out via FWFSA to legislators, local and national;
• if we support Ellreese and all who work and hake honest human decisions within their positions;
• if we get out the word and encourage firefighters to fill out the IAWF survey, we have more hard facts;
• if we demand that fire have a Just Culture so we can foster a safer Learning Environment;
• if we focus on systemic factors that need to be corrected to make firefighting safer,

I think we can effect change for the better. When our agencies leaders don't seem to step up to leadership as fast as we want, it's up to the true professionals on the ground to do it. That's us. We're working at getting the info we need to make the picture more clear to those who can help, skipping the agencies. There is action taking place behind the scenes.

We're strong as a group. Hang in there. This is a work in progress. Ab.

Ab note: Please keep the behind the scenes support going for Ellreese and all of us. It's good to see that Linda is doing her part to pass on info that keeps people up to date.

As discussed yesterday, Jim attended the arraignment for Ellreese Daniel to support him and all firefighters. Wanted to share Jim's note.

Linda Goodman
Regional Forester, Pacific Northwest Region

----- Original Message -----

From: James Boynton
Sent: 01/31/2007 02:02 PM
Subject: Yesterday's arraignment

Yesterday I was able to attend the arraignment of our employee Ellreese Daniels in federal court in Spokane. Ellreese was present with his attorney, Christina Hunt. The federal judge advised him of the charges against him; 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter and 7 counts of giving false statements to a federal investigator. His attorney entered a plea of not guilty on all counts, on his behalf. A new judge was assigned and a trial date was set for March 26. Ms. Hunt indicated the trial date will likely be delayed until sometime later this year. After speaking with Ms. Hunt, I’m confident in her ability to defend Ellreese against the charges and believe she will serve him well.

There were more than 20 Forest employees, retirees and friends of Ellreese there to provide him support and he was extremely appreciative of their presence.

There was also a considerable amount of media present. I was pleased that I was able to share with the media our support of Ellreese and the far-reaching negative impacts criminalizing of fire fighting decisions has had on our workforce and ability to effectively respond to incidents.

We will continue to keep you updated as things unfold.

Jim

1. The pre-trial hearing is set for March 13, 2007 at the Federal Courthouse in Spokane (time TBA);
2. The judge hearing this case will be the Honorable Fred Van Sickle (FYI - he was previously a Chelan/Douglas County Superior Court Judge);
3. It is absolutely appropriate for interested people to come into the court room.
4. The trial is set to start on March 26th, but his lawyer will be asking for a continuance until October 2007;
5. Tina will probably not know until March if the continuance is granted, then she will let us know of changes;
6. Finance questions - all of Ellreese’s court related costs are paid by the Public Defender’s Office;
7. Other finance questions - Ellreese will need financial assistance for incidentals (days off work, travel, overnight stays); court apparel; and if he wants his family brought to Washington for the trial. (For those interested in helping further, we’re setting up a Legal Defense Fund at Cashmere Valley Bank in Leavenworth).
8. Ellreese truly appreciates any and all support offered; the cards and letters are very important to him; as was the good showing of people at his hearing.

An aside, from my perspective of being at the Arraignment Hearing: There was a decent showing of about 20 of us; it was very significant, I’m glad I took the time to go. But, it was an awful experience, “chilling”, to hear the US Attorney read criminal charges against a USFS employee. I can only imagine how Ellreese is feeling.

On the good side – the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Supervisor, Jim Boynton, showed first-rate leadership by attending, and then, in interviews with media. In a note, he said,

“I was pleased that I was able to share with the media our support of Ellreese and the far-reaching negative impacts criminalizing of fire fighting decisions has had on our workforce and ability to effectively respond to incidents.”

Finally, my heart goes out to the family and friends of our lost four (Tom, Jessica, Karen and Devin) on 30-Mile, as it does to the survivors. There is not a day that those closely associated with 30-Mile do not remember their lost four comrades. It is a tough time for all; we need to help each other through this. Thank you to TheySaid for this important and professional forum.

Sincerely,

Heather Murphy
Retired USFS Wildlife Biologist-Resource Advisor, Colleague and Friend, (02/02/07)

Thanks, Heather. Good support and leadership counts for a lot. Ab.

“On the day of the battle, naked lessons are lying about everywhere and can be had
for free. By the next day, they have already begun to put their clothes back on.”

I’m fairly certain this is just an approximation of the real quote. The point is, as time elapses, individual memories of events subtly change. There is nothing sinister or criminal about this, it is just a very normal human tendency to remember and portray events in a way that casts the best light on the storyteller.

Another point to consider; after the fatalities occurred, anyone who was even peripherally involved with Thirtymile had excellent motivation to distance themselves from Ellreese in any way possible.

I encourage you to get off this person-based approach you seem to be stuck on and look more at the organizational issues that preceded this incident. Instead of going back and rewriting history, you should be looking forward to help insure that future accidents are investigated by trained professionals who understand the information processing limitations of human beings, and who are permitted to delve into contributing organizational influences. Too much time and memory and anger has passed under the bridge for THE truth about Thirtymile to ever emerge.

If the ENGB in question was wrongly portrayed, he has my empathy. But checking in at an incident is still a good lesson regardless of whether it happened or not. The important point is whether it makes people talk and think about checking in and getting briefed on every fire, not who did, or did not, fulfill their responsibility in this particular circumstance.

Another quote for you, from George Herbert:

“Follow not truth too near the heels, lest it dash out thy teeth.”

Misery Whip

Point taken. I understand your feelings. Ab.

No disrespect, Mr. Boche, but you'll have to excuse me if I remain somewhat skeptical that all the things you say will become reality the next time one or more USFS firefighters are killed on a wildland fire.

For example, you state that "When our firefighters act within the scope of assigned duties in a reasonably safe and ethical way free of gross negligence, the Forest Service will stand with them." Reading your statement and applying it to Thirtymile, I'm assuming that the official USFS position is that everyone involved, except Ellreese Daniels, met your criteria? The attempted Administrative Actions against many of those involved with Thirtymile says otherwise! Putting that point aside, you make it sound like the USFS really has the power and authority to "stand with them". I question what will really happen when an angry spouse/parent of a deceased firefighter gets their Congressman/Senator to pressure the Chief, Mark Rey or a politically motivated and ambitious US Attorney (who may be looking for Senatorial favor to become a US Judge??) to take action, or in the case of the USFS, to sit on its hands with their mouths shut while another employee is charged with manslaughter.

You also tell the field fire folks that "We will distinguish between acceptable honest errors and unacceptable willful violations". Using the standards that OSHA has for "willful" violations, the USFS has been cited for "willful violations" on numerous fire fatalities since the 1993 Buchanan fatality, yet no one in the upper levels of USFS management (line officers or fire people) have ever faced criminal charges, or even a slow down in their upward mobility!

The final element of your 3 key principles says that we should take action that "MINIMIZES risks of injury or death", but then you follow up saying that all personnel "must be vigilant so that safety is NEVER compromised for any reason." Sounds like conflicting direction to me: in my experience of 30+ years, the only way to insure that safety is never compromised for any reason is to implement the "NO ACTION" alternative by staying on the road and waiting for the rain and/or snow to put the fire out.

I wish that your words, and the words of others that are finally coming out, could convince me to grease up my White's and pack my Red Bag for the coming season. I'm afraid, however, I remain unconvinced, and so will implement my own personal "No Action" alternative for the 2007 fire season or until the critical issue of firefighter liability is resolved satisfactorily.

Mollysboy

Ab,

At the risk of sounding too dramatic, it was a dark day for firefighters
yesterday in Spokane. I was in the court room when Ellreese was read
the charges against him, and I can tell you, my gut was in a knot!

When you hear the judge say: "The Government of the United States
of America is bringing formal federal charges," it's awful. There's no
doubt the full might of the federal government is going to try and put
Ellreese in prison for at least 3 years, and fine him 250,000 dollars.

If you are a firefighter, and you have ever been on a fire when you
didn’t know everything you needed to know to make good choices,
this could be you!

If you ever declared you said "this" or "that" in an overwhelming moment,
believing you did, only to be told later that others in the heat of the same
moment didn't remember it that way, this could be you, being tried for
lying!

There was not as much support standing, sitting or being present at that
court house as there needed to be, with a few notable exceptions.

Now is not a good time to lurk in the weeds firefighters! Stand up and be
counted!

This could be you!

N166Z

"In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service."

USDI folks, state, local, and volunteer agencies aren't immune from the hands of the USDA Office of Inspector General... nor are Forest Service folks... nor is anyone from a group (USDA OIG) that has been legislatively allowed to investigate "potential wrongful deaths" of federal employees without the relevant field, technical, or specialized experience necessary to complete a factual investigation.

Before PL 107-203, the sole responsibility for federal employee wrongful death was administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) under Title 18... As a result of PL 107-203, wrongful death of Forest Service employees is NOW INVESTIGATED UNDER Title 7 which specifically DEALS WITH AGRICULTURE.

Don't even bring up the Constitutional issues of how PL 107-203 violates so many basic protections. The USDA OIG and the Constitutional issues of PL 107-203 will be revealed to all at some point in the future.

After everything is said and done on the prosecution of Ellreese, I would venture to guess that that fingers of "blame" will be pointing back towards Special Agent Parker and the Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Washington.

Hopefully we will concentrate on learning and being a just culture.... SA Parker and the Asst US Attorney simply screwed up.

I bet that is everyone sticks to their guns, that this will eventually be presented before the United States Supreme Court.

/s/ Sign me... feeling somehow like a slab of bacon to accomplish the USDA "Mission".
Sign me also... Lobotomy

Today's Senate hearing on Energy and Natural Resources on
Costs of wildfire suppression [active webcast available]

The purpose of the hearing is to consider the status of Federal
land management agencies’ efforts to contain the costs of their
wildfire suppression activities and to consider recent independent
reviews of and recommendations for those efforts.

Trial date set for deadly wildfire charges

A March 26 trial is scheduled for a former U-S Forest Service
crew boss charged with involuntary manslaughter and lying to
federal investigators in the deaths of four firefighters.

Ellreese Daniels is charged with four counts of involuntary
manslaughter and seven counts of making false statements to
federal investigators. Pleas of not guilty were entered for him
oday in U-S- District Court in Spokane.

Thanks to all who are sending this in. Ab.

This isn’t the time to quit. If you’re retired, I understand quitting, but I wouldn’t call it that. You’ve put your time in and done your duty, now it’s time to enjoy everything else life has to offer you.

But the rest of you, c’mon! Why did you choose to fight fire in the first place? Firefighters are not like the majority of the population. Most of us are rather strange by “normal” standards, aren’t we? We’re the type of people that enjoy skydiving, rock-climbing, skiing, snowboarding, hunting, fishing, whitewater kayaking and traveling to strange places hoping to get lost just to increase the adventure. Firefighters are “fighters”. They’re people who don’t back down from a challenge or danger. They enjoy and thrive on helping those that are sick, injured, less fortunate etc. Firefighters are the type of people that will stop to help a stranded woman give birth without blinking an eye, risk their lives to save a dog trapped in an RV in front of an oncoming forest fire, jump into a class 5 river to tie off their buddy stuck in a strainer, walk through an area hot enough to melt the vibram of their boots to rescue a stranded fawn. Firefighters never ever give up on their calling, their friends, their peers or their families.

If you quit and just walk away, you’re not one of these people I’ve described above. If you quit to make a stand against what we all believe is wrong, then follow through by going all the way; go to Ellreese’s trial, write your senators etc. don’t just quit in silence, make it count for something that will make a change.

There is danger and a huge challenge ahead of us. Maybe we can do something good with it. Do you really believe that you’re the type of leader that will get in the same situation that Ellreese was in? Maybe it is time to take a look at how you’re leading. The “can do” attitude has to be reigned in now, doesn’t it? You know you take risks, we do. There are crewbosses that still allow crews to have a beer or two off hours while on assignment…. but no more. There are times when we engage without the proper resources to watch our back door, now, we can’t do that anymore. The crewmember that is insubordinate will not receive a warning, but will now be sent home on the first flight or bus because they are a liability. In essence without rambling on and on with examples, we now have to change our tactics so to speak. The result will be that we have more large fires, thus incurring larger expense. The initial attack percentages that line officers are supposed to achieve will not increase, but decrease, due to lack of engagement.

It’s simple circle logic.
We know that part of fighting fire is the inevitability that people will die and, sick as it sounds, that is what lures a lot of us to it. However, we can be better, we can be safer. We just have to back off on the mass hysteria and think about how you as a leader can fight fire smart. If you know you’re in over your head, don’t go deeper. Listen to your gut, get the training you need. Don’t accept a signed off taskbook if you know in your heart that you can’t take the worst assignment that position has to offer you. If you feel vulnerable or exposed with your current quals, back off a few and start over.
We need to be there for the younger ones that need us. We need to be mentors, we need to tighten up how we do business and be professionals. So WHEN not if, the next fatality happens, you can sit through an investigation with confidence that you did everything right.

Things will change; they will get better because so many people are fighting for our justice. Don’t you think it would be cowardly to walk away in the heat of a battle?

-Dozershot

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know some of you may have seen this Oregonian Editorial but wanted to
make sure you shared it with your employees. Unfortunately, there isn't a
lot we can do for Ellreese Daniels as he goes through the legal process.
However, we can and have raised our concerns about what this trial does to
our firefighters as a whole and talked about the need to be able to have
employees tell us what happened after an accident without fear of
prosecution. When talking to either newspapers or congressional staffers,
we should be mentioning our fears and concerns when possible. Thanks.

Linda Goodman
Regional Forester
Pacific Northwest Region

You may have received this information through other means, but I thought it best to make sure the info gets out to those who might help support Ellreese by personally attending this Tuesday's hearing. To get the "where/when" info, I made a phone call on Friday 1/26/07 to the (Federal) Public Defender's Office; Ms. Tina Hunt in Spokane. The Legal Assistant that I spoke with asked that the word gets out.

*Arraignment Hearing for **Ellreese Daniels *
_Date: _ Tuesday January 30th, 2007
_Time:_ 3:00pm (1500 hrs)
_Location:_ Thomas Foley U.S. Federal Building
920 West Riverside
Spokane, WA
_Courtroom:_ Magistrate Imbrogno Court

Those coming are advised to arrive 15 minutes early to go through the Security check point; bring photo ID (WA driver's license). The Arraignment Hearing is expected to last 15 to 30 minutes. You could also support Ellreese by waiting outside the Courthouse. I know a good group of local USFS supporters will be there on Tuesday.

Thank you,
Heather A. Murphy
Retired USFS, Colleague and Friend

Thanks, Heather. Ab.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that
matter"..... Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Mollysboy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: 30 Mile Legal Action

We learned this afternoon that our Region 6 employee has been indicted for
his actions during the Thirty-Mile Fire tragedy in July 2001. The grand
jury heard the evidence presented by the US Attorney's Office and has
handed down an indictment. An indictment is not a finding of guilt. The
employee is scheduled to be arraigned on Tuesday, January 30, 2007. At
the arraignment, he will appear before a magistrate judge, who will present
him with the charges, and at that time, his attorney will enter a plea. We
expect a trial date will be set at that time or soon after.

Again, we know this is difficult news to accept and understand. I want to
re-emphasize that no one has been found guilty. A jury will have to
determine if the individual is innocent or guilty as charged. I know that
this situation continues to impact us, particularly those of us in the
firefighting community. I encourage you to share your thoughts, feelings,
and questions with your local line officers.

Again, we expect that there will be news media coverage of this event,
where people will air their opinions and feelings. Let's not judge those
who may speak harshly of our employee or our agency. I ask you to be
professional, as always, and respectful of others' opinions.

***************************
Liz Agpaoa
Deputy Regional Forester
Pacific Northwest Region

Article Link: Oregonian

Thanks to all who sent in this link. Ab.

For what it's worth, I sent emails to both Utah Senators and all 3 congressmen yesterday, urging them to repeal PL 107-203. I think a concerted effort by the wildland fire community will not only heighten political awareness for this instance, but can provide a wake up call to our representatives that we are force to be reckoned with in the future.

Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains...

Joe Hill

If we each do a little bit every day, it will snowball.

Help Ellreese.

Ab.

noname

• FWFSA and IAWF issued a joint news release stating our belief that the actions of the US Attorney did not serve the public need;
• USFS retiree groups have become involved, trying to get PL 107-203 changed in Congress;
• Casey Judd and I have had numerous media interviews about the ramifications of these charges for future firefighter safety; www.firehouse.com just ran an article, and Fire Chief magazine has one scheduled to come out soon.
• Individuals in Idaho, Oregon, Washington, California, Montana (and elsewhere?) have written their Senators and Congressmen about this issue;
• Several of us have talked and emailed Ellreese's US Public Defender Tina Hunt and offered help;
• at least 40 folks are now linked together to share info about the upcoming charges, and attempts to modify or repeal PL 107-203.

It's my belief that we need to keep our energy level on the increase over the next 30-60 days, and so propose that those of us already involved, and anyone else who wants to o join in, consider taking the following actions:

• First, write your local congressional Rep and US Senator; they listen to local constituents more than outsiders; FAX the letter, because hard copy mail takes weeks since it has to get ultra-violet scanned in DC;
• if you've got good fire skills and are NOT affiliated with an Agency, contact the Public Defender with a copy of your resume. Tina_Hunt at FD.org (not putting the @ sign keeps spammers from picking this out);
• if you're a member of NFPA, SAF, IAFF or similar groups, let them know your concerns and solicit their involvement; FWFSA and IAWF are already involved and active.
• If you're an Agency person or an AD, and plan to remove your name from the "available" list at Dispatch for 2007, let your Agency folks know about it. The media Spokesperson for the USFS at NIFC keeps telling the media that losing qualified firefighters isn't a problem.
• if you're a State, County, Rural firefighter, let your department officials know of your concern about the criminal charges, and the potential for these types of things to trickle down away from the USFS and into your world;
• write letters to your local newspapers, telling them of your concerns;
• share information about what's happening with Ellreese and PL 1-7-203 with your fellow firefighters;
• if your US Rep or Senator is on the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, request them to hold a formal hearing about the impacts of PL 107-203 on wildland fire activities;
• in all of your conversations and writings, please remain professional and courteous to all involved.

Here are some suggested "Talking Points" that may help you focus your comments when talking to others (courtesy of Bill Gabbert):

TALKING POINTS:

• We are not asking for anyone to interfere with the legal proceedings that are currently going forward against Mr. Ellreese Daniels. We want to prevent it from happening to anyone else.
• Repeal the Cantwell/Hastings Bill, PL 107-203. Senator Maria Cantwell and Rep. Doc Hastings, who sponsored this bill, only wanted to ensure that the deaths of firefighters would be investigated so that lessons could be learned in order to reduce future such accidents. They both now say that manslaughter charges were never anticipated and is an unexpected consequence.
• Reasons to repeal PL 107-203:
  • The land management agencies are already obsessed with safety and conduct their own fatality investigations, along with OSHA, and now the Department of Agriculture's Office of Inspector General
  • Wildland fire suppression is as much an art as a science. It takes over a decade to become moderately skilled. Honest mistakes or the inability to predict with 100% accuracy exactly what a fast-moving fire will do should not result in a person being threatened with jail.
  • Some firefighters, now having to deal with the threat of going to jail for making a mistake during a split-second life and death situation, have recently decided that their chosen profession now exposes them and their families to unacceptable risks and they will no longer serve in overhead positions on fires. Others may decide to change to a profession that has less risk for them and their families.
  • Now that firefighters know that talking to investigators after a serious incident on the fireline can result in going to jail, destroying their careers, and ruining their families lives, many will refuse to say anything. Lessons will not be learned. Fires could get larger. More homes and private property could be lost.
  • This law, PL 107-203, requires that the Dept. of Agriculture's Office of Inspector General (OIG) conduct an independent investigation when an employee of the US Forest Service dies on a fire. The OIG generally investigates white collar crime, and has no experience or qualifications to investigate wildland fires. A good wildland fire investigator needs at least 10 years of specialized wildland fire experience, plus specific cause and origin training, as well as investigator training. The law enforcement personnel in the OIG do not have all of these qualifications.
  • If wildland firefighters can now go to jail for their honest mistakes made on a raging wildfire, can structure firefighters be far behind? If a firefighter is killed on a structure fire, will the Captain or Chief go to jail?

If you're interested in staying "in the loop" about Ellreese's case and activities regarding PL 107-203, drop me an email at: kona at bigsky.net and I'll get you on the list. NOTE: if you're an Agency person, the Email Gestapo may be watching! I'd recommend getting and sending messages to/from your personal mail account at home, on off-duty hours.

In the years that I've been involved in wildland fire (way over 30), I've never seen a single issue that has so much potential to have a negative influence on our business and firefighter safety. That said, I also never seen such a ground-swell of support from our wildfire community to right this wrong.

Please, get involved, stay involved, change/repeal PL 107-203 and help Ellreese beat these charges.

Dick Mangan

Now that I see that the Chief is resigning, it makes a little more sense when I was told that the Chief's office would not be sending anything out. Hopefully our new Chief will see this as a crucial topic that requires her immediate focus.

It is truly heartening to see the postings here on TheySaid.... Abs thanks so much for all you have done... Casey Judd, right-on for encouraging us to stay in the game and stay tuned, there are things that are happening... Dick Mangan...I have always been inspired by your knowledge and convictions, it was good to re-read your article... now I remember where the slippery slope term came from.. sorry for plagiarizing.... there are so many others that are posting things that keep the dialogue going... Jumpin Jill Flash.. Miserywhip.. FireBill...Old Green and Gray... Thomas Taylor... and all the others that bring their diverse opinions and feelings into the important issues that are in front of us.

Ellreese, hang in there and know that you have alot of people that are there supporting you and are raising the issues of criminal complaints against those that are doing the Gov'ts work. I, for one, am planning on continuing to stay actively engaged in fire suppression work... whether its being a ICT3, DIVS, OSC2, or as a SOF2. It is truly a very noble and honorable profession that we have. I have hope that we will see changes within the Agency, that they will be there beside us if ever the need arises. Let's all continue to stay engaged on the issues before us and continue the dialogue, and respect each other's perspectives.

Rod Altig
FMO Columbia River Gorge

You're welcome. It takes all of us. The Abs.

Conversely, I firmly believe that these actions are making life as a firefighter infinitely more dangerous because they are wrapped up in CYA instead of doing the job at hand safely. I am further disappointed in the performance of the Forest Service Leadership (lack of) specifically the Chief and Director of F&AM, more check lists, Doctrine, more smoke screen, where are their heads at? One poster here suggested throwing out the 10/18 perhaps they are right throw out all this acronym garbage and go back to the ORIGINAL 10 and 13 (yes 10 & 13) that said it all and these are not really grouped for management but for firefighter safety think about it! Commander’s intent is a good concept and it doesn’t need a big document to explain it simply put it is defined in Objectives, Strategy and Tactics tempered with serious application of the 10 and 13.

On leadership, well it is non-existent with most of the Forest Service, yet there is all kinds of “Management” they are woefully unschooled and unskilled in leadership. This trend has been evolving since the mid 80s. There are a very few islands of true leadership that remain and they are under assault by mediocrity which is becoming the accepted standard.

Several posters have commented on giving up or not obtaining Quals. Humm, if I was still on the job I would seriously consider the same thing; it isn’t worth what is happening to people that do make mistakes. I made more than my share and was extremely fortunate to not seriously hurt anyone.

Several years ago there was a post here on “Where have the ICs gone?” ab could you find it and repost it, as its very appropriate at this time. “Blackwell on Where have the ICs gone?” (link on the Archives page, Docs Worth Reading section.)

I was an IC, and would not do it today. Yes there will be a huge IC void, and as previously pointed out, it will be filled, with more mediocrity. There are people out there that are “Qualified” but certainly not skilled, a product of the new version training and quals system that is a check the box and you are one. I heard it said the previous quals system was the “good ole boy” system and to a certain extent that’s correct. However, when a person was “qualified” under that system they had demonstrated through action on more than one or two occasions that they truly were, and not everyone made it through that process. Just think, not all high school or college football players that want to, make it to the NFL no matter how good they are locally.

This issue is greater than “Quality training” it is also "quality performance". I have personally witnessed employees that have been denied qualification when they were signed off for qualifications on a simple incident. They filed grievances and won, only to move on to the next level and become even more incompetent. The same applies to those that are known to promote by grievance... yet more mediocrity. When was the last time you know when someone’s quals were rescinded because they were incompetent and it stuck? So those considering giving up quals think about who will fill that void.

When I started, it was tin hard hats brown work shirts, levis and shelters were a new thing we didn’t trust. When I retired a few years ago off one of the busiest fire forests I had been a type I IC.

Maybe after 40 years of this your thoughts may sound the same. I wondered why all the old guys were cynical when I was wet behind the ears new.

Sorry for the length of this and I am sure that there are those who will disagree.

Old Green and Gray guy

Welcome Old Green and Grey. Ab.

I wrote this letter over 4 years ago. As you can tell, I was frustrated and concerned about my inability to control my exposure when I had little control over the workforce assigned to me, especially on fire assignments. Even though most people know who wrote it, I asked to have my name removed from it as I have moved on to other things and prefer not to have it following me around. My understanding is that it may be more applicable today than then. Each person must make his/her own decisions, but keep this in mind…..Wildland Firefighting is a noble and important career. The country needs you! My time has past, but yours may not have. Fight the good fight and try to make things better for you and your people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Retirement letter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am sending this letter to announce my retirement on September 30, 2002.

I made this decision with a great deal of reluctance. I feel like I am deserting. When I agreed to become a Type 1 IC I actually intended to work 2-3 years longer. Otherwise, I would not have taken the position. Since then, things have changed.

The event that changed my mind so abruptly is the 30-mile Hazard Abatement Plan. As you know, fire teams have been struggling to keep abreast of the issues and follow the large volume of direction all summer. The people on my team did an outstanding job.

The fact remains that the Forest Service, through layers of directives, action items, letters and other documents, has shifted the majority of the responsibility to FMO’s and IC’s. I believe this puts us in a vulnerable liability position if an accident does occur. It is impossible to guarantee 100% compliance with all the rules and still do the job, either at home or on a large fire.

The 30-mile investigation resulted in several adverse actions, including proposed removals. The Forest Service will not allow us to review the related findings, so it is impossible for us to understand what actions or omissions led to the disciplinary actions and make our own judgments. It is now unclear what support the agency is willing to provide in such instances. We are left guessing at the future. More importantly, I see a trend towards more aggressive involvement by family members of victims. When we live in such a litigious society, this is also concern.

My family, my lawyer and I all came to the same conclusion. I have the ability to remove myself from this risk, I should do so now. I am already eligible to retire so it no longer makes sense to allow myself to continue in what I consider to be a position of unacceptable, yet inescapable risk.

I hope my service this year has helped in one small way of allowing others another year of experience at DPIC so they are even more prepared to step up. I am proud to have been part of the R-XX Fire Organization, I think we are the best in the Nation. I am honored to have been one of your IC’s and wish the best to the entire Wildland Fire Service.

The team membership of my IMT was well established when I was given the assignment last Spring. I can say I inherited the best group of highly skilled and friendly people I have ever seen on one team. They have done an outstanding job in a difficult year. Please continue to give them your full support.

Sincerely,

<snip>

Thanks for letting us share this. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the President’s Desk
Dick Mangan
IAWF President, 2004-2005

Wildfire Magazine
January-February, 2005

Wildland Firefighting on a Slippery Slope

In May, 1987 along China’s Great Black Dragon River that separates China and Siberia and is known in the West as the Amur River, brush cutter Wang started a wildfire as he was refueling his mechanical brush cutter without waiting for a cool-down period. The fire spread out of control, and burned together with other fires in the area that had been seen by satellites, but not reported to forestry officials. It eventually burned more than 3 million acres, and killed 220 people. The Chinese Red Army was brought in to suppress it, but the General in command was unable to control the fire, and consequentially was relieved of command and sentenced to time in jail for his failure.

The investigation of the 1994 South Canyon Fire in the US State of Colorado that killed 14 firefighters found that local fire managers had failed to follow their own rules and policies, but no one was held accountable, and some even received cash awards for their actions during that fire season.

Australia’s “Linton Fire” in December 1998 resulted in the death of 5 volunteer firefighters from Victoria’s Country Fire Authority (CFA). A “Coronial Inquest” was held to review all the events and facts (the equivalent of a US Grand Jury Investigation), involving over 100 witnesses, more than 17 lawyers, and thousands of pages of testimony. It was the longest running and largest “Coronial” in Australia’s history at that time, but no one was charged with mis-conduct or went to jail.

And then, in July 2003 during the Cramer Fire above Idaho’s Salmon River, 2 U.S. Forest Service helicopter rappellers were burned over and died on a “Type III” (Extended Initial Attack) fire on their home forest. Three (3) separate investigations were conducted: one, by the USFS; another by the US Department of Agriculture’s Office of Inspector General (parent organization of the USFS); and a third by the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), which is required by law to look at any fatality of Federal employees.

As a result of these investigations, the USFS decided to take “administrative actions” against some of their employees, ranging from letters of reprimand to termination of employment. Although it has been more than 18 months since the fatalities, most of those “administrative actions” have not been resolved within the USFS.

OSHA found the USFS liable for 5 Violations ( 3 “Serious”, 1 “Willful” and 1 “Repeat”).

But in my opinion, the most significant actions resulting from the Cramer Fire fatalities are those taken by the U.S. Attorney in Boise, Idaho: they explored, based on the findings of the 3 investigations as well as information that they had gathered, bringing CRIMINAL charges against the Incident Commander based on his actions, and the resulting deaths of the 2 helicopter rappellers. A news release in early December 2004 announced that a pre-trial agreement had been reached: The IC lost his job with the US Forest Service and would be on Federal Probation for 18 months.

Fighting wildland fires is a curious mix of science and art in a rapidly changing environment, with an often-unknown combination of factors determining what occurs. Since my 1st wildfire suppression action in the mid-1960’s, I’ve never been 100% sure that all my actions and reactions were absolutely correct and “by-the-book”. And the “book” keeps getting thicker and more complex every year! It’s relatively easy for an outsider, with weeks and months of time, to review the decisions I had to make in seconds or minutes, compare them against the hundreds of pages of direction found in the Fireline Handbook, the “Red Book”, the Incident Response Pocket Guide, and various Training Manuals that cover the past 40 years, and find errors in my judgment or decision-making. Does that make my conduct criminal?

Throughout my entire career, I’ve been blessed to never have a firefighter seriously hurt or killed while working under my direction. But, I’d be a fool to think that this was all the result of nothing but skill, ability and experience: pure, dumb blind luck has kept me, and the firefighters who have worked with me, out of harm’s way more than once - and out of the US Attorney’s gunsight. For that, I’m eternally grateful!

So, where do the Extended Attack IC’s for the 21st Century stand after the actions of the US Attorney in Boise? Are they going to risk their careers, homes and jail time to take charge of fires that are threatening to burn out of control into valuable natural resources and or into residential areas? How about Initial Attack IC’s? What about Prescribed Burn bosses who knowingly and willingly light fires in the woods?

I’ve got this new-found fear that wildland fire has entered onto a “slippery slope” that we won’t find it easy to get off of in the coming years, and that the fallout from the Cramer Fire will ripple throughout the wildland fire community world-wide, resulting in fewer and fewer folks willing to take the personal risks required to be an IC on a wildfire or prescribed burn. If that happens, the land and the public that we serve will suffer the consequences.

Maybe a US Attorney will step up and become an IC during a busy fire season.

I'm going out on a limb here and being politically incorrect, I'm
sure.. I guess I have a few questions. Why did the crew go down the road
with Ellreese? Did anyone look at a map and see that it was a dead end
road? You state that Ellreese was incompetent and should have been fired
long before...so why would someone follow an individual that they feel
this way about? Also, I'm curious, Ellreese tried to pass off the IC
position to a couple people that are notably better experienced/qualified
individuals and they turned him down, how much support at that time do you
think he felt?

My biggest question is this...and I will agree with you in that there are
alot of incompetent firefighters out there that are promoted, even those
who can't read or write. But seeing as how this is the culture that the
Forest Service has created, shouldn't the Forest Service be on trial? How
about the supervisors that have given Ellreese passing performance
evaluations, how about those who signed off his task book for Crewboss, IC3
and Div? Ellreese makes it through the system, he's known to have some
faults yet he's continually given positive reinforcement in the way of a
permanent position and qualifications. So when he fails, it's his fault? I
don't follow.

Once again, as it's been said before, this whole mess shouldn't be about
trying to hang an individual that is a product of a faulty system, it
should be the search for the latent failures that led to this terrible
tragedy. If we turn our backs on this situation then a precedent will be
set, a "slippery slope" as Rod Altig put it. This is dangerous, Thom, as
dangerous as pulling your crew off the fireline and not telling the
adjacent forces that you are disengaging.

-Dozershot

Your statement about the crew boss being responsible for the safety of all
of his employees is very true and I won't argue with you about that.
But, where does their responsibility lie with crewmembers that
intentionally disrupt and ignore issued directives? If I remember from
Missoula, you were up in that rockslide for the initial push and roll, then
moved down to the road afterwards (please correct me if I have my facts
wrong. I am just going on what you stated you did at the time at the scene)
Maybe you could enlighten the rest of us welfare employees working for the
big green machine on who made the decision to ride things out there and
why, when the aftermath photos clearly show that the road or even the
sandbar near where the vehicles were parked would have been a hands down
choice to deploy and survive, as most of the rest of the crew did. I think
at one time I even saw pictures of the crew rigs and they survived with
minimal damage.

I have never seen a true unredacted statement that covers the decision
process used by the rockslide squad and would be interested in reading one.

I can't think of any I.C. that I know that is perfect and makes the right
decisions one hundred percent of the time, and that includes myself. My
personal thought on this indictment is that it is going to open the door
for additional suits against more of us if and when we make an error or
someone working for us makes an error.

FMO Joe

I have been totally overwhelmed with the responses I have received to my
letter "30 mile a Agency Slippery Slope". Based on the emails and phone
calls I have gotten, it appears that there are a lot of people that feel
very strongly about what has happened to Ellreese Daniels. I would like to
thank all of you that have responded, and if I haven't sent you a reply,
its due to the magnitude of emails I have received, and not that I am
ignoring you.

The letter that I sent to Dale Bosworth, Chief of the USFS,
Tom Harbour National Director of Fire for the USFS, Linda Goodman R-6
Regional Forester, Ken Snell R-6 Director of Fire Mgmt., all R-6 Forest
Supervisors, and all the Fire Staff's in R-6 has been fairly well received.
I have gotten responses from Dale Bosworth, Tom Harbour, Linda Goodman,
and Ken Snell, along with numerous others. They have all assured me that
they are working on several things to correct this injustice, but due to a
open criminal proceeding, they have not felt that it was appropriate to
comment publicly.

I have been asked (summoned) to the Regional Office to
assist the Regional Fire Director and Regional Forester in drafting a
"White Paper" on this issue on Thursday 1/11/07. We shall see what it has
to say, as we are all waiting for some Regional and National leadership on
this issue. I have also been told that all of the Regional Foresters and
the National Fire group are meeting soon to discuss this issue.

I have seen numerous changes in the fire community since I first started
as a GS-2 grunt, on a district fire crew in 1974, some positive, some not
so positive. Being a member of the wildland fire fighting organization has
been a wonderful career, the places I have seen, the close friendships I
have made on every fire, and those relationships keep getting stronger and
stronger.

There have been numerous people that have sent replies to my letter
asking what they can do to help resolve this issue that's before us. I
think one of the most important things we can do, is to engage in serious
discussions within our local Forest, Regional and National arenas, talking
with our Line Officers/ Agency Administrators, Cooperators , and others to
come up with a solution. There are also avenues to try and repeal the
Cantwell legislation. The fire community has always had a " Can Do "
attitude, and I feel very strongly that we can weather this storm and
effect some change within our organizations. We need to be there to support
Ellreese Daniels through this difficult time that's in front of him.

Another thing we need to continue to do is mentor and provide quality
training experiences for those that are coming up behind us, so that they
have the knowledge and confidence to face all the challenges that lay
before us in the future. So let's look forward to the day that our Agencies
will stand along side of us through thick or thin, 'cause if they fail to do
so, I fear that there won't be anyone to answer the call.

Rod Altig

"To accomplish great things,
we must not only act, but also dream;
not only plan, but also believe"
Anatole France

Casey Judd

Of course we must endeavor to improve the system which asks its employees
to bring order to chaos.

We must always look at the context in addition to human error. But we
cannot turn our backs- nor ignore- the fact that some actions
by incompetent people throughout history border on the criminal. Their
actions went well beyond simply failing to understand the feedback of the
situation. When all the variables were taken into account, many
individuals throughout history have proven that they were motivated by
elements of their own personal situation that had nothing to do with the safety
and well being of their subordinates. To General Custer it was arrogance and
his personal need to position himself for the Presidency which led to the slaughter
of his command at the Battle of Little Big Horn. Yes- we can talk about his
tactical blunders and the nuts and bolts of what happened on that day back
in 1876, but the essence of this tragedy was personal arrogance. The
Department of the Army gave Custer a great deal of "tactical discretion",
but without mastery of self, this discretion failed to serve Custer well.
You noted that "we need to focus on examining the system, the bureaucracy,
enabling policies, and the physical environment in order to find the root
causes of the problem. FIND the problem and solve it, not prosecute
individuals or add to Watch Out lists".

I can tell you what the problem is in these fatality fires. The problem is
that firefighters are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time by a head
fire that kills them.

The factors which define wrong place usually involve being above and or in
front of a rapidly advancing flame front. The factors which define wrong
time usually involve being in an area without a sound escape route/safety
zone at a time when the humidity and fuel moisture's are at their lowest
and the temperature and wind are at their highest.

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here (I was born one) but it seems to me
that if we use our heads, we might be able to place ourselves in the right
place at the right time and reinforce our chances of a safe outcome if we
add sound escape routes and safety zones to this equation. If you don't
want to die in a fire shelter -maintain a sound anchor, flank, establish
LCES and know your limitations. I agree- firefighters shouldn't be
worrying about liability- so quit worrying and do your job according to the
scope of your abilities and qualifications.

Still Crazy After All These Years

I am fully aware of the issues, possibly more than you are, consequences and facts behinds this case, both legal and for what it will mean to wildland firefighters and government operations. I have been asked by local wildland firefighters to offer my firm's services, pro bono, to help Mr. Daniels and I am now consulting my associates on a decision to do so. After reading all I could about this case I believe this case is winable to the benefit of Mr. Daniels and ALL Wildland Firefighters. As for the investigator who interviewed Mr. Daniels, I probably have more on my Red Card than he does and have probably been involved in a lot more wildland incidents than he has (seriously, but as you say here "Tongue in Cheek).

My ending comment to my last post was just an off the cuff response to Mr. Daniels latest predicament. Having represented defendants under similar circumstances before, I know that this last incident won't help Mr. Daniels in the eyes of a jury. I do agree with Mr. Carson's (Hi Hugh) comments, well most of them anyway. I wish the best for Mr. Daniels and ALL Wildland Firefighters.

Shoshanna

I'm going out on a limb here and being politically incorrect, I'm
sure.. I guess I have a few questions. Why did the crew go down the road
with Ellreese? Did anyone look at a map and see that it was a dead end
road? You state that Ellreese was incompetent and should have been fired
long before...so why would someone follow an individual that they feel
this way about? Also, I'm curious, Ellreese tried to pass off the IC
position to a couple people that are notably better experienced/qualified
individuals and they turned him down, how much support at that time do you
think he felt?

My biggest question is this...and I will agree with you in that there are
alot of incompetent firefighters out there that are promoted, even those
who can't read or write. But seeing as how this is the culture that the
Forest Service has created, shouldn't the Forest Service be on trial? How
about the supervisors that have given Ellreese passing performance
evaluations, how about those who signed off his task book for Crewboss, IC3
and Div? Ellreese makes it through the system, he's known to have some
faults yet he's continually given positive reinforcement in the way of a
permanent position and qualifications. So when he fails, it's his fault? I
don't follow.

Once again, as it's been said before, this whole mess shouldn't be about
trying to hang an individual that is a product of a faulty system, it
should be the search for the latent failures that led to this terrible
tragedy. If we turn our backs on this situation then a precedent will be
set, a "slippery slope" as Rod Altig put it. This is dangerous, Thom, as
dangerous as pulling your crew off the fireline and not telling the
adjacent forces that you are disengaging.

-Dozershot

~~~~~~~~~~

The unfortunate events that have transpired over the past month regarding Ellreese Daniels really highlight the fundamental problem with the belief many of us have in America about the individual and the role of society; individuals need to be held accountable for mistakes (not I didn’t say “their” mistakes).

The knee jerk reaction one frequently hears when something wrong happens is to find those responsible and hang them, either figuratively or literally. It’s all about the individual, not the environment in which the deed occurred. Obviously individual responsibility is important, but in our collective haste to find the guy who pulled the trigger, we miss the opportunity to fix the problem that led to the event in the first place. Consequently, enlisted personal and junior officers in Iraq will continue to face court marital for misdeeds, yet the misdeeds will continue. People like Ellreese (and perhaps the crew of Engine 57?) will continue to be blamed for making wrong decisions, yet wildfirefighter fatalities in the Wildland Entrapment Zone will continue (and I fear will increase as we go forward). And wildlands will continue to be held responsible for homes burning down in Malibu, yet homes continue to be built in a manner inconsistent with the fire-prone environment in which they exist.

As Lobotomy and others have expressed here so well before, it is time to drop this focus on pointing fingers and accept that human error (or battle stress, or homeowner irresponsibility) is just part of the game and is virtually impossible to eliminate. Instead, we need to focus on examining the system, the bureaucracy, enabling policies, and the physical environment in order to find the root causes of the problem. FIND the problem and solve it, not prosecute individuals or add to Watch Out lists.

The solider or wildland firefighter are at the END of the line of responsibility, not the source of the problem that originally initiated upstream. They are not sole agents acting in isolation of the environment in which they operate.

Should people who willfully commit acts that lead to harm be held accountable? Absolutely. But this business of firefighters worrying about liability in the performance of their duties and our tendency to blame the victim only guarantees future tragedies because the root cause is never addressed. Everyone is too scared to speak the truth.

jimhart

Now on the other hand, if the I.C. takes two squads up a dead end road out in front of a running crown fire to "pick up some spots," then become entrapped and provides no leadership at the deployment site, are they responsible? Hell yes! They are responsible. I agree whole heartedly that the charges against Ellreese are ridiculous and have come too late. But the Forest Service needs to hold its Employees responsible for their actions when mistakes are made. The Agency is starting to turn into a Welfare program for people that are poor at their jobs, have sub-standard leadership qualities, and make poor decisions. In the real world, people like Ellreese would have been fired long before something like the Thirty-mile Fire ever happened. His incompetence is now on trial and its too late. So lets stick to the basics and remember that " S*%t grows back and Homes can be rebuilt"!

Thank-you
Thomas R. Taylor.
(Thirty mile Survivor)

LC

Ok, this Ab is going to weigh in on this:

Shoshanna, Please read Hugh's post above. Hugh hits on the real issues. There are multiple levels of injustice here with critical implications:

• at the individual level, the injustice to Ellreese on the fire and lying charges
• at the higher system level, the injustice that involves our wildland firefighting community and the incident command system. How these charges impact this level has critical implications for public safety across the nation and for national security, since we come under DHS directives.

If we do not look at the whole picture, and act from the fire professional knowledge place - as an alternative to simply letting the process "take its course" - we will be in danger of the equivalent of riding into Baghdad and thinking that we've won the war. Fire professionals must speak up to educate and impact the outcome. I know that most non-fire people do not understand the true issues or the implications for our country.

I think because of your law perspective, you may not understand that simply the "bringing of charges" (charges) poses a critical threat to the wildland fire community's Lesson's Learned process and poses a threat to every Incident Commander who cannot follow every rule and checklist we're currently obligated to follow and check off.

Similarly because you see the legal process as a just process or one that is usually valid, you may not recognize that people who are innocent and are unjustly accused pay a price financially and psychologically. They can risk loosing everything dear to them simply in trying to raise the money necessary to fight for their innocence or else they're forced into plea bargain. In Ellreese's case, for one thing, his constitutional rights were violated in where/how the information regarding the fire was gathered in order to bring those charges. Who is accountable for that? Do they or their agency go on trial?

Take a deep look at the 30mile Report. Take a deep look at the "rules" that the legal system expects accountability on. Take a look at the charges. And you say trust the system? How can we when anyone in a supervisory position next season could find themself in Ellreese's position following a tragedy?

Shoshanna, My apologies for landing in your "square". I have too many people telling me behind the scenes that they're planning to retire early or not statusing themselves in ROSS this year, or will decline serving on an Incident Management Team. We won't know until we see how many IMTs form up this year what the outfall is of this action against Ellreese and the failure of Fire leadership and ...

Here's another excellent article that was posted recently that lays out the issues and implications of charges being brought. www.missoulian.com

Ellreese, shame on you for whatever reason you were in the car doing whatever you were doing several days ago after your court appearance on the 30mile charges.

Ab.

I didn't get a chance to do this yesterday, I would like to wish Jason McKay's sister a Happy Birthday......

Happy Birthday Crystal J.!!!!

BatGrl 12

jb:
Thanks, I remember that now, SUPERVISORY.

jd:
I don't know who decides, besides the FS legal beagles; maybe someone else will. I researched all around this back in the Cramer liability days. Here's what I found. I barely remember researching and writing that piece. It's no secret, I really don't like people having to solve problems through litigation. (I do like people working together on MOUs to streamline agreements prior to crisis, however.)

Now, Casey loves all the legal stuff. Thank goodness! Maybe he knows more details.

Mellie

What I remember the two different presenters (one a rep and one a lawyer) from Wright and Co saying is roughly this:
When the going gets tough for the feds, their lawyers take the path of least resistance, to cover the Agency's rear end first. Agency lawyers are not acting on your behalf first.

Basically the lawyers for the Agency are in a conflict of interest position, the conflict being

• do they support the employee or
• do they protect themselves first?

Lawyers always protect their employer first. That's a no-brainer.

This priority is more true now than in the past when the world as we know it wasn't decided by lawyers, court cases, and out-of-court settlements, including the equivalent of plea bargains that make you a felon. We currently live in a "litigation happy" reality. We also assume that everything is prettymuch black and white, and that we human beings make totally logical decisions and accountability for following the black and white rules (and profits) is key. Companies and agencies used to foster the "we are a family" ideal. No more. Now it's about profit, market share and protecting the company/agency's own self-interest. [Has anyone heard the rumor out of R4 that Forest Rangers (line officers) are going to be required to catch 98% of new starts on IA. Accountability, costs... Hopefully just a rumor... What do most of them know about IA? If true, is this going to be another black-and-white thing?]

In my opinion, in this meaner profit/cost-driven reality, we no longer have a balance of power in this country among the Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative branches of government. "The Judicial Branch Rules" and the outcomes are not "fair" or "just". All branches have been given a black eye in part because the judicial runs rampant, forcing settlements out of court, that often result in the little guy without financial resources and/or social capital getting the short end of the stick, never mind justice being served. (phew deep breath after that run on sentence)

I watched the criminalization of the medical profession some years ago. Litigation follows the money. Results:

• Medical costs have skyrocketed.
• The first and foremost thought is CYA.
• Fewer doctors are trained and enter the profession. (Many go into the legal "profession" instead.)
• We have a critical nursing shortage world-wide.
• Doctors, nurses -- the whole medical profession has lost a large measure of credibility with the people they serve.

The situation in fire is simply a repeat, currently being laid upon our firefighters. Unless checked, I expect the same pattern to prevail with even more skyrocketing fire costs, shortages of fire managers, loss of our Incident Management Teams and negative public attitudes toward the agencies.

jd, To get back to your question about what liability insurance covers, exactly, for wildland firefighters...

No, professional liability insurers do not cover "gross negligence" or "criminal wrongdoing", but what firefighter/manager who has had a crew burned over has been grossly negligent, let alone criminal? I believe that to begin with they assume that firefighters are not grossly negligent. If they assume it, the agency lawyers are more likely to assume the same, probably because they'll be made aware by someone speaking their same language.

Liability insurance company lawyers make the greatest difference, in my opinion, right at the beginning following an accident/fatality/act of God. Having them available means you have a "secret weapon", a supporter to call on, someone who will tell you "don't talk" until I can advise you of the "parameters of the legal field". You are paying this person/company who is expert in this kind of law to "watch your six" and give you pointers, because you will be unlikely to care for yourself simply on the emotional level in the midst of this crisis. You are paying for their knowledge of the legal pitfalls that you need to be aware of and to navigate to try to simply survive inside your own head in the future. Your life will never be the same, but without a legal supporter, it likely will be a whole lot worse. Normally, we think of ourselves as good people, competent, doing our job, and for those of us in fire we think of ourselves as "public servants". To date most of us are not used to thinking of ourselves walking among others who do not share our values. Finding yourself stabbed in the back by your agency and "the system" comes as the rudest of shocks...

Point: Legal pitfalls are often determined by outcomes of congressional bills and prior legal skirmishes in a court of law or out. Law and interpretation of it is based on past legal history - legal precedent, not necessarily on fairness.

Normally when a firefighter needs this kind of legal support, they're in the same vulnerable psychological shape as the families of the fallen. I wish it wasn't so, but they need a legal WFF, an organizer, a personal advocate who is thinking more clearly, especially one with the right kind of legal expertise. They have lost a fire family member and are stunned, bereft, possibly injured physically themselves and their normal extended fire family support group is often equally dysfunctional. They can't think straight. Typically they can't remember large chunks of what happened. Often they can't make the simplest of arrangements for food, lodging, transportation, normal daily activities. Some feel the need to withdraw; some, the need to tell the story over and over (bad move). At some point early on, all humans think "thank god it's not me". Then they feel guilty, second guess themselves and can play it repeatedly over again in their minds. (Lt Col Dave Grossman, PhD, ex-Ranger, describes this eloquently in On Combat; he's a fantastic speaker as well. Taught psych at West Point. Good guy, down to earth for all his expert knowledge of human factors under stress.)

Oh my, I can tell if I don't end this I will go on for hours, maybe days... I am sorry for what our Agency has come to regarding support of firefighters and other employees. But to put their actins in context, let me ask: Were they pushed there by lawyers representing people in grief? grievance-filing employees? environmentalists? by laws created by our Congress in a highly charged bipartisan climate in DC? hopped on by DoJ legal beagles who want an appointment as judge? Where does it begin? Where end? No answers; it's a process.

oopsie, the timer on my keyboard just announced a 1 min limit to wrap it up

In spite of all this, I am optimistic. We can affect the future. Thanks to everyone writing here, writing your reps, and to those working and researching behind the scenes.

Mellie, over and out...

You getting paid by those professional liability companies? (tongue in cheek) Ab.

The U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC) is an independent federal investigative and prosecutorial agency. Our basic authorities come from three federal statutes, the Civil Service Reform Act, the Whistleblower Protection Act, and the Hatch Act.

For those with things to SAY ON THE RECORD, but would like to say them ANONYMOUSLY without fear for their jobs or their family security..... .... HERE is the location.

Sometimes it is hard to speak on the record.... but when it comes to safety, folks need to act upon the "Greatest Good" for all..... Speak up!!!

Gizmo..... a Whistleblower

Rod Altig
Fire Management Officer
Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area

Welcome Rod, your letter has landed in the right place for public viewing (more than 100,000 per week). Thanks for getting the word out through your channels. Most of us are having the same thoughts and are sharing them loud and clear. Well written piece. Ab.

Though I don't believe a stand-down will solve the current problem facing Ellreese, I do believe an actual SHOW of support is the best way we can all help out. Personally, I will be on the district courthouse in my greens, yellows, and boots with a FREE ELLREESE sign in my hands on Jan. 30 in Spokane. I understand it's easier for some than others to make it, but if any other laid off temps from around the area want to get involved, it would be a great opportunity to show our support for Ellreese. This kind of thing is what makes America great, our right to voice our opinion. Ellreese was my parent's crew boss in the late 70's/early 80's and was an instructor for my rookie class in 2001; he is a great guy and deserves our support.

-Hog

I have no intention of quitting my job or this fight. I just won’t status myself as available in ROSS until PL 107-203 goes away. I’m militia, my boss doesn’t give a hoot whether I go on fire assignments or not. I have remained active in fire because I enjoy the people, the travel, the challenge, and because I think it is the right thing to do. I didn’t change, the job did.

I believe this is one of those important life issues that every firefighter needs to decide individually. Personally, if I was just starting out, I’d think strongly about moving to a different agency or changing my career if our agency can’t resolve this problem very soon.

When I look back at the way things used to be, I think we crossed a dangerous line with South Canyon when OSHA became involved with Forest Service entrapment investigations. The fire orders, which had previously been used as a teaching tool and to relate lessons learned following entrapments and burnovers, were held out to OSHA by our leaders as our rules of engagement.

That major blunder has since been compounded by codification of the “We don’t bend them, we don’t break them” message from senior management. But there are a number of reasons why the fire orders don’t work as rules of engagement, and why “we don’t bend them etc” is misguided wishful thinking on management’s part. I don’t believe our Forest Service senior management ever did understand, or understands today, the importance of these fundamental changes.

For one, the fire orders tell you what to do but not how to do it. Therefore, each fire order MUST be interpreted subjectively based on an individual’s own training and experience. Thus, two firefighters with different training and experience standing side-by-side will frequently come to entirely different conclusions about what they are seeing and experiencing, which influences what they consider important and unimportant, which in turn influences strategy, safety zone selection, etc. As in quantum mechanics, there is no single correct answer to any question regarding firefighter safety. It depends on the perspective of the viewer at a specific moment in time.

There have been a number of excellent papers written in recent years that clearly prove why the fire orders should not be considered as rules of engagement that can be “broken.” In 1995, Jim Cook wrote a great paper entitled “Fire Environment Size-Up: Human Limitations vs Superhuman Expectations.” He demonstrated that our most seasoned fire leaders compare their present experience with previous experiences to make prudent fireline decisions, and that the fire orders are only referenced and used in an incidental way.

Behavioral scientists use the term “Recognition Primed Decisionmaking” (RPD) to describe how human beings actually make decisions in high-tempo environments. Gary Klein and many others have written extensively on this subject. Jim Cook’s paper supports the RPD model.

Additional papers by Ted Putnam, Jennifer Ziegler, and others demonstrate the fallibility of the fire orders as rules of engagement. Used as a tool of retrospection, the orders can be utilized to provide a snap shot of a previous moment in time. But we need to croak this myth that firefighters constantly refresh the fire orders in some kind of “linear loop” fashion to maintain situational awareness. If you were able to accomplish this, it would be the only thing you would be capable of doing. You wouldn’t be able to speak, listen, change locations, work, and do all of the other things it takes to engage and fight fires.

On top of that, each updated assessment would only be relevant to you and your immediate surroundings! Doing an initial size up of a small fire using the fire orders is one thing, maintaining perfect situational awareness of the fire and fire orders as time passes or your location changes on a large fire is something else entirely.

I think the burden of proof in Ellreese's case is on the prosecution to prove that the fire orders are actually used by wildland firefighters in the manner held forth by senior Forest Service managers. I don’t think they can. Where is the training program that shows you how to use and apply the fire orders throughout the duration of a fire assignment? Where are the papers extolling the virtues of the fire orders as rules of engagement? They don’t exist, and for good reason.

For you primary fire types who still have to answer the bell, I have an idea. What would happen if many of our ICs really did what management SAYS it wants and started utilizing a zero-risk strategy on wildfires?

Let’s challenge this erroneous presumption that any experienced wildland fire IC can look at a fire and calculate the fuels, terrain, weather, available firefighting resources, projected fire growth & other variables and somehow predict everything that will happen over the next 12-24 hours.

Part of your calculation includes the spacing and size of safety zones needed to insure that all firefighters have ready access to a safety zone on all portions of the fire at all times. Since all fires produce hazardous convective gases and most are capable of producing firewhirls, safety zone size and location calculations for a zero-risk operation must include assuring that firefighters can be protected from such phenomena.

Don’t forget, by definition, a safety zone is an area where firefighters can remain safe from the harmful influence of fire effects without needing to deploy fire shelters.

Since there is no published direction for determining safety zone size and location beyond the IRPG guidelines for radiant heat protection, you can make your safety zones as numerous and big as you wish. Who can say you’re wrong?

The logical conclusion to this line of thinking is simple. The ONLY safe course on a wildfire is to not engage and place firefighters in proximity of the fire. Period. After that, all choices contain an element of risk.

Here’s how a mature organization deals with risk. From the US Army Risk Management Chain Teaching for Leaders:

It is imperative to develop twenty-first century leaders who trust their subordinates’ abilities and judgment. Such leaders must be willing to underwrite their subordinates’ honest errors and coach them on to excellence, without tolerating incompetence or laxity. We must recognize that Army leaders are not perfect, and that activity at the ragged edge of audacity sometimes leaves debris in its wake.

GEN William W. Hartzog
Commanding General
US Army Training and Doctrine Command

MORAL AND ETHICAL IMPLICATIONS
FOR LEADERS

To be successful, risk management must be underwritten by the chain of command. Leaders should not expect that all missions will be accomplished with zero defects—free from errors, flaws, or less-than perfect performance. Demanding such rigid standards leads to oversupervision and paralysis; it produces timid leaders, afraid to make tough decisions in crisis and unwilling to take risks necessary for success in military operations. A zero defects mindset creates conditions that will lead inevitably, in the larger sense, to failure in battle and higher casualties.

Leaders are morally bound to support a subordinate’s decision to accept risks that are within his commander’s intent and guidance, as he understands it. Leaders accept that things may go wrong, even with the certain knowledge that a subordinate has done all within his power to prevent an incident. In such an event, the leader steps forward and accepts the responsibility along with his subordinate.

Everyday as we respond to the nation’s needs, we expose our soldiers to hazards in uncertain and complex environments. We do this with the full knowledge that there are inherent risks associated with any military operation. The nature of our profession will not allow for either complacency or a cavalier acceptance of risk.

General Dennis J. Reimer
Chief of Staff, Army

As long as our Forest Service “leaders” still cling to nonsensical Rumsfeldian statements like “We don’t bend them, we don’t break them” as representative of our fire management philosophy, the US Forest Service and our cooperators will continue to struggle with this terribly important issue. How long do you think it will take before our cooperators start seeing Forest Service fires and Forest Service firefighters as potential liabilities to be avoided? Is that really where we want to go?

Free Ellreese.

Misery Whip

It doesn't have to get much more complicated than

1. "This is what I think the fire is going to do,
2. this is my plan for what we are going to do, and
3. these are our contingencies in case I've got it all wrong."

This is dangerous ground. I hope you are not actually really using that or teaching it to students. Here's why,
It doesn't have to get much more complicated than

1. "This is what I think the fire is going to do, (THE FIRE IS PROBABLY GOING TO DO SOMETHING ELSE).
2. this is my plan for what we are going to do, and (RARELY DOES A PLAN REALLY WORK AS DESIGNED).
3. these are our contingencies in case I've got it all wrong." (IN A CRISIS ASSIGNED CONTINGENCIES FREQUENTLY FALL APART).

I could spend days writing about why both original and contingency plans fall apart, but I do not have the time (that does not mean we should dump the planning process, it has great value).

I will give you the short version of what I tell every "new" group of students that starts our firefighter academy. The short version is a little long, so hang in there.

I have worked in a number of very complex career fields. I worked as an Air Traffic Controller at one of the only military bases in the world that had fighter aircraft (multiple types), turbo-prop transports and heavy jet transports permanently assigned to the same facility (the highly varied flight speeds of these aircraft, makes for an extremely dynamic and complex air traffic control environment). I cannot remember how many of my original classmates graduated from the training program, but it was not a large number. I spent 15 years as both a military and civilian Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician (EOD), and while I was qualified on everything from Nuclear weapons to hand grenades, my specialty was booby-trapped land mines. My EOD class (a mix of Marines, Air Force, Army, and Navy enlisted personnel / officers) started with 25 people and graduated 4 of the original members. From both the cognitive knowledge demands and manipulative skill requirements, Air Traffic Control and Bomb Disposal are about as demanding a profession as you could choose. I can personally testify that there is one profession that is significantly more complex in the demands that it places on individuals, and that's the fire service. I could spend the rest of my life studying just one small aspect of this business, fire behavior, building construction, tactics, command, anything, and I would only scratch the surface of that one area. I could concentrate on just one of these items, such as "wildland fire behavior," and in a lifetime I would not come close to having it all dialed in. I could "zero" my wildland fire behavior studies onto just one fuel model, and still not have that covered in a lifetime. For years I have told every fire academy that if you approach this career field correctly, firefighting is the most complex thing you will ever do. What we have and continue to ask from firefighters is far and above those demands placed on Air Traffic Controllers, EOD Technicians and almost any other "blue collar" profession.

If you think that a simple three-step checklist will solve your command/safety problems in the wildland fire environment, you need to get out more. It is far more complicated than that. If it was that simple, why haven't all of the brilliant minds that are in this business, already solved this problem. Trust me, they have tried. There are some incredibly bright people who post to "Theysaid". If you combined them with all of the exceptional people who have retired over the last decade, many of whom spent years writing and teaching about command, human factors, crew cohesion, and fire behavior problems; our problems should have been solved long ago. If a simple checklist or similar formula would work, it would have been discovered, because dam* near every option has been tried. Lists are great, they have their place, and they should be rigorously utilized, but they are just a "tool" within the complex arena of decision-making. Accidents, fatalities, and command failures cannot be solved or explained by simple three step solutions.

Thanks,

FOBS73

When I signed up for the Hot List Forum, I learned the "secret handshake" to be able to recognize other forum members while out in the real world. Wink wink, nudge nudge, you know what I mean? I'll take the Moose Drool and a burger, Fat Tire as a second option. They need the Drool at the Kopper Kettle in Boise.

Stay Safe! "Kicks"

And you think you have a good time with the secret handshake... Ab.

"Since 30 mile the focus during a fatality incident by the upper echelon seems to be more focused on the "blame game" and making some sort of "statement" by creating a new checklist or something than to learn at the operational level."

Those folks at the "upper levels" are the same ones around since Thirtymile... most are political appointees or people taking direct instructions from the political appointee chain of command.

There is a "white paper" being formulated at the WO/RO levels to address the current state of things..... how far do you think they will stray from the wishes of their "bosses", the political appointees? Hopefully the leadership and guidance of the Chief of Fire and Aviation Operations isn't the same as he gave folks on the Copper Fire on the Angeles National Forest 2002....

Gisgirl.... awesome....

Thanks,

Lobotomy

R1 Admirer

I agree with you folks that plan on dropping quals to protest this. However, your decisions will ultimately hurt our capabilities to perform as the agencies can always find folks that are marginal to fill in behind you, putting more FF's at increased risk. Next thing I would caution you about if you choose to stand down. Best be looking at your Position Descriptions before you commit and check how they are written so that the course you choose to follow doesn't lead you into disciplinary actions or subsequent removal.

I say we stand behind Mr. Daniels and ride this out as a consolidated force.

By the way, for the guy who thought that Yakima was "pretty White", my advice for you would be to do bit of study about where all of those Washington apples, pears, and other tree fruit come from. When I stayed there I went to my motel room at dark and didn't move til morning. Huge migrant worker and Hispanic population in Central Wa, as well as having numerous Native American tribes that have ancestral lands there.

FMO Joe

Defense attorney blasts charges against fire crew boss
www.yakimaherald.com/page/dis/287894252010530

I'm sorry this country is loosing your fireline supervisory services, Misery Whip. I wonder what it will take for the message to get through that prosecution of firefighters in this kind of situation is wrong. Today was the new Congress' first day. Perhaps they will get it together to change the law. Ab.

I was reading back through some of the info on theysaid after 30 mile and this critique by Mr Kampfen jumped out at me. Well said, Mr Kampfen, Sir! Thank you for bearing witness to the truth!

(vfd cap'n please read this, notice the complexity, and how one thing leads to the next and the speed of change.)

What decision should be made, in hindsight may seem very rational -black and white. In the moment it's not so clear. Those of us who fought the 2003 fires can identify with the complexity and velocity with which things change.

Tahoe Terrie

You hit the nail on the head of the issue. Those guys in Jack Ward Thomas' day got that part of it wrong about not bending or breaking the 10 Fire Orders, while mitigating all of the 18 Watchouts. Others' perception of wildland firefighting is stuck here.

The "rules" are really guidelines for the process of engagement and disengagement of fire. Original Intent Fire Orders were described again by Karl Brauneis in 2001 and there's a good schematic here. As many have pointed out through the years (Doug Campbell, for one), they're very loosely written and can always be found to have been violated in fatality fires. In actuality, how well someone can follow the "rules" that are really guidelines is a matter of

• Knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) that equate to
  • training,
  • experience with and awareness of fire behavior, how and where it changes, it's signature on the particular piece of ground and how to assess the changing fire risk on the fireground itself
  • knowledge/experience with how to mitigate the risk using LCES (Lookouts, Communication, Escape routes and Safety zones, which are really a distillation of the 10 fire orders see Gleason); knowledge of how large a safety zone is required
  • experience with and awareness of people-dynamics under stress,
  • leadership, and
  • all kinds of other human factors that affect situational awareness at individual and group levels
    • Individual differences:
      • concurrent responsibilities (wearing too many hats)
      • sleep deficit
      • duration of assignment without real "rest"--> tiredness/fatigue
      • adrenalin (epinephrine)
      • hydration/dehydration
      • smoke (carbon monoxide among other components)
      • physical fitness
      • guts or courage to step up and question leadership if you feel the situation may become unsafe
      • ego issues; lack of emotional intelligence
    • Group dynamics include the above and, among other things, also include:
      • crew cohesion
      • experience in working together on a particular fire, if a pick-up crew
      • soft-spoken leader/charismatic squad boss
      • trust in the leader if you're up against the wall
      • experience levels of those in the crew, ratio of new to experienced members that model excellent "followership" behavior, gut level knowledge of following chain-of-command.
        Who do you follow on a pick-up crew?
• Timeframe in which to make life-saving decisions:
  Is the speed in assessing and following the guidelines of engagement/ disengagement (formerly known as "10 Fire Orders") moving at a human "molasses pace" relative to the "hypervelocity" of the fire's movement? (Regarding timeframe, see Kelly Close's excellent article.)

So that brings us to Doctrinal Change and Professionalism. In spite of the recent regression in these charges being brought against Ellreese, and the current administration's attempts to dismantle fire (outsource it), I feel that we've been working toward Doctrinal Change.

• Yeah, firefighters are still called Forestry and Range Techs (even the Firefighter Safety Awareness Study, Part III, "Implementing Cultural Changes for Safety" suggested wildland firefighters be classified as firefighters by OPM).
• And yeah there's still a retention issue, especially in where forests abut cities on the WUI (wildland-urban interface).
• ETC

But the thing that gives me hope for change is that there is this theysaid community of individuals -- professional firefighters. You're willing share your wisdom and network to take critical issues that affect this nation: to the public, to the congress, and to the judicial branch. You're good thinkers and planners and you have an impact. Read over that section in the link above on "Implementing Cultural Changes for Safety" and you'll see we're in the process of creating change from the fireground, in spite of the bureaucracy. This is a mark of the Wildland Firefighting Professionalism you HAVE.

Here's to you, my friends, you participants! Nice work. I sure enjoy all our individual differences and our group dynamics, our wisdom and our quirky kneejerks. Thanks Ab, for the inspiration of this website. You were/are ahead of your time in this vision!

Mellie

• no one in congress -- inclusive of the authors of the legislation -- intended, anticipated or expects criminal prosecutions to result from the passage of the legislation and
• no guidance, implied or stated, gave either agency the authority to apply the law retroactively.

Thanks in advance for your letters. You all have a powerful voice.

Casey

Ab's bolding.

Ab said maybe you could find a phone or fax number for the Spokane
Spokesman-Review? It's a key media resource on the US Attorney's
home ground.

Anyone else got that info?

Someone emailed me and suggested we might want to contact newspapers
and legislators in Washington State (and our own home states) about the
Yakima editorial. As he said, The US Senate and House get sworn in
Thursday, so they'll all be in DC.

Here are some contact numbers:

Washington US Senator Patty Murray: Fax 202-224-0238
Washington US Senator Maria Cantwell: Fax 202-224-8273
Washington US Rep. "Doc" Hastings: Fax 202-225-3251

Tri-City Herald: Fax 509-582-1510
The Olympian: Fax 360-357-0202
Yakima Herald: Email opinion@yakima-herald.com
Wenatchee World: phone 509-663-5161
Seattle Times: Fax 206-382-6760
Seattle P-I: phone 206-448-8000

Montana US Senator Jon Tester: Fax 406-449-0184
Montana US Senator Max Baucus: Fax 202-224-0515

Folks, you can get to your elected officials e-mail addresses and fax numbers:

http://thomas.loc.gov (General Info and Individual Websites)
http://www.house.gov (House of Representatives)
http://www.senate.gov (Senate)

Mellie

A few years ago I would have said "This could not happen!" But here we are.
Keep up the good work with "they said". And cover your butt, whatever you do.

Retired and Glad I am.

I hadn't seen the errata sheet for the 30-mile Report; I had only heard
about the changes. It would be interesting to know the motivation behind
those changes from the top down.

Veeeery int-er-est-ing.

Regarding Elreese's lawyer:

I have heard that Ellreese has a very sharp and competent Public Defender,
versed in this kind of federal law. I do hope that someone is copying and pasting
pertinent info from theysaid to pass on to his lawyer. There is such a wealth of
professional firefighter information being shared here.

My thought about the US Atty in Spokane who brought the charges:

Part of me says "poor guy". If that federal attorney did make this opportunity
to increase his visibility to advance his career, it really might backfire. As
we're seeing in the Duke University "rape" case debacle, legal professionals
can come down hard on their peers for ethics violations. Heaven knows
that the DA in that case has certainly ruined the lives of some young men
and cost their families big bucks without having real evidence.

Time and more information will tell.

Veeeery int-er-est-ing.

Happy New Year everyone! Rock and roll to a professional beat!

Mellie

We've posted a link to the errata Sheet for the 30 mile Report on the Archived Documents Worth Reading.

NorCal Tom

Here's a bit of it. Excellent piece. Ab.

The mistakes contributing to the Thirtymile disaster have been well documented. The Forest Service and Occupational Safety and Health Administration investigated and thoroughly catalogued the contributing factors leading up to the deaths. They range from inadequate safety consideration to flawed firefighting tactics to fatigue to lapses in leadership. Forest Service investigators faulted the crew boss for some of the mistakes, but assigned others more broadly. Charging a middle-management firefighter with manslaughter for the death of crewmen in a fire is akin to filing manslaughter charges against an Army captain for the deaths of soldiers caught in an enemy ambush.

"Kicks"

Thanks Kicks. Excellent points. Ab.

the vague principles of the Ten Fire Orders
and other directives show that hard and fast rules are not
appropriate to all fires under all circumstances. Because fires
are unpredictable, and because lighting a backfire can be a
lifesaving emergency measure, the Government's orders and
directives do not specifically direct, for example, at what wind
speed a backfire is prohibited. One firefighter, Safety Officer
Beardsley, cancelled a backfire on August 5 because the "wind is
blowing . . . too much for a burnout." Because one firefighter
decided a burnout was too risky on one day at one location does
not mean that the next firefighter, assessing different, or even
identical circumstances, would possess any less discretion in
making his or her own judgment. The point is not the sagacity of
the firefighter, but rather "the nature of the conduct." E&&
airlines, 467 U.S. at 813.

And

But each mandatory directive provides discretion to
the firefighter. For example, Standing Fire Order Number Seven
holds that a firefighter must "determine safety zones and escape
routes." But the firefighter must use discretion to decide what
constitutes an adequate safety zone based on the surrounding
fuels, topography, weather, fire behavior, availability of other
firefighting resources, time available to prepare the site and
other factors involved in fire fighting discretion. An adequate
safety zone may vary greatly in size depending on these and other
factors. The Orders tend toward vagueness. Standing Fire Order
Number Ten instructs firefighters to "Stay alert, keep calm,
think clearly, act decisively." This is the language of
discretion, not of specific mandatory actions or protocols.
The non-specific language of the Government's policies and
directives, such as the Standing Orders and Watchout Situations,
supports the Government's position. These are flexible
principles to be used in fighting fire, an activity that depends
on firefighters' judgment, common sense, and experience. The
Miller Court's holding is applicable here: "The existence of
some mandatory language does not eliminate discretion when the
broader goals sought to be achieved necessarily involved an
element of discretion." Miller, 163 F.3d at 595.
Case 9:03-cv-00198-DWM Document 85 Filed 09/05/2006
Page 16 of 25

FC180

Nice find, FC180. Ab.

The scree that the fallen were sitting on as the fire blew up is similar to places we have waited out a firefront before. In hindsight it was not good and I will not take refuge in that kind of place again without serious thought or only as last resort. One good lesson that came out of 30mile.

I'm pretty sure there was a clip in the NOVA special showing the blowup on the Bitterroot (2000, Carvello was IC) that has a bunch of hotshots sitting on just such a scree slope. Not an uncommon practice.

As firefighters we each are responsible for our own choices. Some of us make decisions with more information and experience and some with less. Some years when we're fighting fire, time working does not equate to time getting real fire experience, unless you're a hotshot. How many of us have any experience with really extreme fire behavior? Do we know how we'll think or act? Hopefully we have good training, good fire experience, good sleep, good intel when confronted with life threatening choice.

I hate to be the one to say it, but once entrapped, the dead had as much of a hand in that choicemaking as almost anyone else on that crew. Ab, if you look at the photo where it happened, how could anyone guess ahead-of-time what place was better and what place was worse? I wonder if <the person saying the wording in the thirtymile report had to change> feared having to tell the families their sons/daughters/husband made choices that were not good. The push in 2000 was very much to not blame the victim. Did that become policy?

There's a huge difference between blaming and lessons learned, the second is gathering info to educate us and make us a more professional org. I wonder if our leaders know it or if it's just CYA and politics.

An old hotshot supt told me years ago something like "To the families of the fallen we owe our sympathy; to the dead we owe the truth." If I die on a fire, I hope the truth will prevail even if my family is unhappy with it. I have had this conversation with them. New years day is always a good time to say it again. I want my peers to learn as much from my death as possible about why I and others made the choices we did that caused my death.

I have good hopes for the new year. Educating people, 365 new days to do it...

Tahoe Terrie

Is this the doc you spoke of??

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2006/30mile_report_errata.pdf (pdf file)

yactak

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

<FWFSA Logo>

FEDERAL WILDLAND FIRE SERVICE ASSOCIATION
P.O. BOX 515   INKOM, IDAHO 83245   (208) 775-4577

December 31, 2006

To the Editors
Yakima Herald Republic
P.O. Box 9668
Yakima, WA 98909

Dear Editorial Staff:

I had hoped to spend some quality time with my family this New Year’s Eve but unfortunately, ignorance reigns supreme within the confines of your editorial on the Thirtymile charges.

Isn’t it great to have the power and authority of an editorial column to illustrate such irresponsible ignorance to your readers? Perhaps if you or those who collectively wrote this hit piece had any semblance of wildland firefighting expertise & experience, your commentary would be a bit different.

Let’s cut to the facts shall we. The majority of the wildland firefighting community is concerned with this “politically aspired” (can we say federal judgeship for the U.S. Attorney) persecution because, oddly enough, we do have the expertise & experience in dealing with, this may come as a shock to you…a dangerous occupation.

Suffice it to say, it won’t matter how many are prosecuted or how many “lessons learned” to be published, wildland firefighters will continue to die in the line of duty. That is a fact and the nature of the beast.

Your collective assessment of professions with accountability is absurd. There are of course plenty of dangerous jobs. However nowhere in this world, even in the structural firefighting environment, are elements and environments as dynamic and unpredictable as wildland firefighting.

To equate soldiers raping people, truck drivers, farm & dairy workers to fighting a nemesis that produces its own weather; can devour 1000 acres in an hour; blow flames horizontally across a six lane freeway at 100 mph and more often than not requires split second decision-making is unconscionable and irresponsible. As is so often suggested, if you haven’t filled the shoes, then you know absolutely nothing.

Case in point is the prosecution based upon the affidavit of a “postal inspector” turned “wildland fire investigator” who, as I understand, has not a day of practical wildland firefighting experience yet apparently has the authority to second-guess and use the proverbial 20/20 hindsight to attempt to take someone’s liberties away from them.

Moreover, while your editorial speaks of justice, explain the “justice” in the OIG’s office violating PL 107-203 by relying so heavily on the Forest Service investigation. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize that the investigator, Mr. Parker, had no expertise or experience in this field and had to rely on the Forest Service investigation…again, a violation of the law.

Now let’s talk about the law. After the investigatory debacle in the Cramer Fire, I personally contacted staff in both Cantwell’s & Hastings’s office, among others to inform them of the “unintended consequences of the law.” No one, inclusive of the two offices who introduced the legislation, intended, anticipated or expected criminal prosecution. In fact, all the law says is:

“…the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

As soon as possible after completing an investigation under section 1, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall submit to Congress and the Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the results of the investigation.”

There is no guidance from Congress to DOJ or the USDA OIG’s office with respect to how to conduct the investigations. As a result, both agencies have subjectively interpreted their authority under the law with respect to bringing charges against Mr. Daniels.

Still further, why is the language of the law limited to fatalities to an officer or employee of the Forest Service only? There are four other federal land-management agencies. Why are they not encumbered by this legislation?

Heck, since we’re all for accountability, since you feel that professional firefighters should feel the fear of prosecution for going to work and doing their best each day, why not use your “editorial advantage” and call on the State of Washington and every community in your state to pass a law for state & municipal firefighters. I dare say you’d be run out of town.

Since we’re looking for accountability, why not charge President Bush with manslaughter for the deaths of our soldiers in Iraq? How about the squad boss in Iraq who orders his crew down a road only to have a roadside bomb explode and kill his team? How about the mayor of New Orleans for the deaths of his residents?

Sirs, wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. People will continue to die regardless of how much “pain” is relieved from prosecuting someone. No firefighter in this country goes to work on any given day with the intent of killing or maiming their co-workers.

We will continue to learn from each fatal fire…but there will always be more. And let’s not be so ignorant as to think this isn’t an organizational problem. The management of the Forest Service fire program is performed by those with little, if any practical fire experience. From Mark Rey, Deputy Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources & the Environment, the “puppeteer” if you will, has no red card. Try finding a line officer who does.

By the way, have you seen Mr. Parker’s red card? Didn’t think so.

Very few of us were there at the scene and we are all entitled to our opinions. However, the public would expect some semblance of experience or expertise from the press when it talks about something as serious as this. Yet you have none.

Perhaps when the season starts up next year, you, the US Attorney & Mr. Parker might want to spend a couple of weeks cutting line, dodging snags, enduring blowups etc. Heck, maybe we’ll even let you make some command decisions since you know it all!!

As a nationwide organization comprised mostly of federal wildland firefighters, we have nothing but admiration & respect for those that lost loved ones on Thirtymile. But there are many, many others who have lost loved ones on Storm King, Cramer, Esperanza and many others that despise the prosecution of Mr. Daniels.

Maybe Mr. Weaver could take some comfort and solace in talking to those families that have found other ways to deal with their grief & tragedy.

Mr. Editor, you expect accountability & responsibility in an extremely dangerous and dynamic occupation as wildland firefighting. Shouldn’t the public be able to expect the same thing from you?

Respectfully Submitted,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Links to 30 Mile Report.

aerial photo of Thirtymile fatality site
more photos: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/30mi/30mi.htm

You said:

but to presume no culpability because he's one of us (as many of the posts seem to project) is also wrong.

There are a number of reasons that the majority of wildland firefighter posters and readers here know Ellreese is not guilty of manslaughter and should not be brought up on charges. He is not culpable - that is, not worthy of the kind of blame he's charged with. He is a person who made choices in combination with others making choices under stress.

Those bringing charges in Spokane and the FS "leaders" allowing the charges to be brought are acting from their own agendas. As time goes on, no doubt some of the nittygritty of the scape-goating will be revealed unless the "powers that be" find a way for all to save face. This action against Ellreese should not have gotten as far as it has. As a number have said, it's likely to get very ugly.

My question to you: Have you read ALL of the 30mile Report carefully? You should.

Ab.

Links to 30 Mile Report.

Big Smooth, thanks for sharing your wisdom. Give our best to the rest of the family. Ab.

"Written direction for the management of fires is numerous, confusing
and in some cases contradictory. There are separate or additional requirements that
relate specifically to the Agency which is responsible for managing the fire. Forms are
duplicated with different names. As we continue to work in an interagency environment,
the differences for Department of Interior personnel and Department of Agriculture
personnel do not appear until trying to sort which policies must be complied with on
which fire. The lack of unified definitions, common and standard language could easily
affect the method and manner the fire is managed."

Similar are the differences between the Forest Service and CDF... But we all understand each other and watch each others backs nowadays....

We are getting there... someday we will have a safer wildland fire community when we all have the same language and processes for looking for Lessons Learned... and we can all speak freely as friends with similar circumstances...

Lobotomy

Original Ab's 2004 comments on Why Federal Agencies Should Support Their ICs. Clear, prophetic. Ab.

Here is the full version copy (.html) of the abstract that vfd cap'n was referencing. It is free copy and available from the Western Journal of Medicine. I read it over two years ago and it is a very good foundational read for those interested in Human Error/Human Factors.... but you have to read it all to get the gist of where Dr. Reason is going..... It will make you want to read all of his research and presentations.

It also has some very good information on blame, HRO's, and the failures of people based systems that are currently in use.

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1070929

Student of Reason

After all the news of the pending lawsuit, and the criminal charges, what
do they think is going to happen? One answer is who will want to step into
the ICT3 positions? I know that with the added pressure you can count me
out. I believe there is an article out entitled "where have all the ICs gone"
I think that sums up how many of us feel.

Thanks, ab
ENOP

"Meanwhile, the wildland fire community also has had considerable heartburn the last 5 years following the Forest Service investigation, which mostly took a "system approach" by, among other things, creating the Thirtymile checklist for managers."

I must respectfully disagree with you, while I think we are trying to say the same things. Most of the items within the Thirty Mile Checklist and subsequent policies were also person oriented and directed towards the troops on the ground, rather than looking at the latent systemic failures leading up to tragedies.

After doing countless hours of research regarding the work and theories of Dr. Reason, I feel the actions of the Forest Service following Thirty Mile to be a prime example of concentrating too much on the failure, rather than examining the organizational culture that allowed the failures in the first place.

By adding policies, checklists, or additional procedures to an already overloaded "pilot" (ie.-IC or line officer), it does little to create a safer "cockpit" (the wildland fire profession).

The "systems approach" recognizes that humans will always make errors. As such, the organization realizes the inherent risks and designs policies, operating procedures, and technology around the human to minimize their chances of error. The actions of the Forest Service following the Thirty Mile fire did none of these. In fact, they did the opposite by overloading incident commanders and line officers, while shielding the latent systemic failures that need to be corrected. Those actions also ensured that there would always be someone to "blame" at the bottom rather than share the "blame" throughout the organization.

The only actions that the Forest Service has done regarding a "systems approach" was the Foundational Doctrine... and it appears to have stalled after meeting opposition by some very vocal people in some of the Regional and in the Washington Office.

Lobotomy

Wildfire Groups Concerned about Public Safety and
Property Protection in Light of Criminal Charges

HOT SPRINGS, SD, December 28, 2006

Contact:
Dick Mangan, IAWF President, (406) 543-0013
Chuck Bushey, IAWF President-Elect, (406) 248-8307
Casey Judd, FWFSA Business Mgr., (208) 775-4577

IAWF Offices: 605-890-2348
www.iawfonline.org

The International Association of Wildland Fire (IAWF) and the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) believe that the criminal charges for involuntary manslaughter filed by the U.S. Attorney in Spokane, Washington just before Christmas against the Crew Leader who lost four (4) firefighters in July 2001 on a wildfire does not serve the Public’s needs for fire protection.

Outgoing IAWF President Dick Mangan of Missoula, Montana and incoming IAWF President Chuck Bushey of Billings, Montana stated their opposition to the criminal charges today. Their concerns were echoed by Casey Judd, Executive Director of FWFSA.

The charges against the Crew Leader, coming more than 5 and one-half years after the fatal fire event, has had a chilling effect on Federal and State wildland firefighters across the U.S., and is also being carefully watched by Australian and European fire personnel. Since the announcement by Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Hopkins of his intent to bring the Crew Boss before a Grand Jury, firefighters have been coming forward stating their unwillingness to accept the responsibilities of making the sometimes split-second decisions, only then to find their decisions reviewed with 20-20 hindsight for more than 5 years, resulted in criminal charges.

For the public at large, and for homeowners and others with property in the areas generally described as the wildland-urban interface, this may result in fewer highly qualified firefighters taking leadership roles on fires, and a more conservative and less aggressive approach to suppressing wildfires by those willing to accept leadership positions such as Incident Commander or Crew Supervisors. The end result could be more acres burned, more homes and other structures destroyed, and greater fire suppression costs to the taxpayers.

Mangan and Bushey of IAWF, with more than 50 years of professional wildland fire experience between them, have both served in wildfire leadership positions across the U.S. Both appreciate the uncertainty of some fire situations, and the decisions that must be made under stressful conditions with lives and property at risk.

IAWF and FWFSA believe that while holding firefighters and leaders accountable is essential to safe and efficient fire ground operations, the criminalization of firefighters for their decisions is counter-productive, and fails to serve the public’s needs for wildland fire protection.

Note: the criminal complaint can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/y9dxcy

The International Association of Wildland Fire is an organization founded to promote a better understanding of wildland fire, built on the belief that an understanding of this dynamic natural force is vital for natural resource management, for firefighter safety, and for harmonious interaction between people and their environment. The IAWF Board of Directors includes members from Portugal, Australia, Greece, Canada and the US.

The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association is an employee association formed in 1990 by and for federal wildland firefighters. We are THE political voice for all federal wildland firefighters. Our membership spans the full spectrum of firefighter positions from entry level through management officers. The FWFSA is dedicated and committed to improving pay, benefits and working conditions for the Nation's federal wildland firefighters as well as providing a forum for our members to become active advocates in the process of increasing awareness and education among those in Washington D.C. who are in a position to effect positive change.

Excellent. Ab.

"The AFMO [Koyle] then met with the Fillmore DR and reviewed operational issues. At that time it was agreed that if progress towards containment was not made by 1400 hours they would develop a Wildland Fire Situation Analysis (WFSA) for the incident."

- www.nifc.gov/ARB_Factual_Report.pdf

I think that pressure (get production on the line or else increase paperwork at the office) is why he felt compelled to go down the drainage to check the spot fires as their deadline approached. 

vfd cap'n

Supervisors worry about effects of charges in wildfire deaths

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

YAKIMA, Wash. -- The government's decision to file criminal charges against the boss of firefighters who perished during a 2001 wildfire in Washington state has potential fire supervisors having second thoughts about taking on the dangerous duty.

Ellreese Daniels was charged last week with four counts of involuntary manslaughter stemming from his role as a U.S. Forest Service crew boss during the Thirtymile wildfire in Okanogan County in July 2001.

Lawyers for Daniels and other federal employees targeted in the government's investigation of the Thirtymile fire's handling say the criminal charges are inappropriate. They say many of the nation's wildland firefighters now worry they could end up facing criminal allegations for mistakes they make on the job.

Several firefighting veterans said the new rules have them buying personal liability insurance to protect their homes and pensions in case they get called into court, the Yakima Herald-Republic reported in its Thursday editions.

We certainly don't want to see a fire season where we can't find adequate people to manage the scene because the DA in Washington state decided to bring manslaughter charges, whether it's warranted or not,"

said Casey Judd of the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, which lobbies on behalf of federal firefighters.

Elton Thomas, a retired Okanogan National Forest fire management officer, said he believes Daniels could have done more to prevent the Thirtymile deaths, but didn't mean for anyone to die.

Whatever the outcome of the criminal charges, the case will change the nation's firefighting system, he said.

"There's maybe going to be a new `normal' out of this that people are going to have to adjust to, but it's going to be a significant effect," Thomas said.

Daniels' public defender called the charges baseless and contended he's being singled out among many in the chain of command who made mistakes.

Debra Roth, a Washington, D.C., attorney whose firm represented some targets of the Thirtymile investigation, also questioned the government's decision to prosecute.

"This is a guy who's going to work ... and he's doing his job, terrible things happened and four people died. It's not your typical manslaughter case," Roth said.

The deaths brought about changes in the way the Forest Service and other federal firefighting agencies attack wildfires, as well as new rules for reviewing wildfire deaths.

The families of the dead firefighters successfully pushed Congress to require the U.S. Department of Agriculture to independently investigate whenever a Forest Service crew is fatally overcome by flames.

Ken Weaver, whose son Devin died at Thirtymile, said Daniels wouldn't be facing charges if the deaths were unavoidable. Daniels failed to guarantee an escape route, a cardinal safety rule in the Forest Service, Weaver contends.

"This is a poster child for prosecution," Weaver said. "As long as you follow the rules and do everything you can, you're not going to get in trouble. The only thing you get in trouble for is not following the rules."

Advocates for firefighters already are calling for Congress to reconsider whether criminal charges are the best answer for deaths on the firelines.

Daniels also faces seven counts of lying to investigators about his role in fighting the 9,300-acre fire, which grew from an unattended campfire.

Prosecutors allege Daniels knew, or should have known, the crew would be trapped and that he failed to protect them during at least 30 minutes they had to prepare for the approaching inferno.

Killed were Yakima firefighters Devin Weaver, 21, Jessica Johnson, 19, and Karen FitzPatrick, 18, and their squad boss trainee, Tom Craven, 30, of Ellensburg.

The government's approach raises questions about the use of manslaughter charges, Roth contends. The charge is more typically used in cases of unintentionally deadly conduct, such as drunk driving, or when police questionably use deadly force, he said.

"They are a stretch away from the kinds of acts or omissions that occurred or may have occurred in any of these fires," Roth said. "From a legal perspective, it's an interesting use of the statute."

Judd said Congress should reconsider what it wanted when it passed the bill.

He said he isn't suggesting that criminal charges be off-limits for every fire death. But he said the legislation - a well-intended effort to appease the grieving Thirtymile families - didn't consider all the ramifications.

"There was no thought process given to how the dynamics of the legislation would play out," Judd said. "I think if they actually had hearings and had firefighters there, maybe there wouldn't have been a bill, or it would have been written differently."

fair use disclaimer

Statement (as prepared) by Senator Maria Cantwell on the Deaths of Four Firefighters in Okanogan County

Wednesday, July 11,2001
"It is with a heavy heart that I come to the floor today after learning of the tragic deaths of four firefighters in the Wenatchee National Forest in Washington state. These courageous firefighters died yesterday battling a wildfire in Okanogan County. A tragedy of this magnitude is felt throughout Washington state, but should also be recognized and mourned by a grateful nation.

"On behalf of the citizens of Washington state, I extend my deepest sympathies to the families of the four brave men and women who gave their lives to protect their neighbors. Squad Leader Tom Craven of Ellensburg, Devin Weaver of Yakima, Jessica Johnson of Yakima, and Karen Fitzpatrick of Yakima gave their lives to keep us safe. This tragedy is compounded because these firefighters were so young - Tom Craven was 30 years old, Devin Weaver was 21, Jessica Johnson was 19, and Karen Fitzpatrick was 18. We join their families and friends in mourning their loss.

"I also want to wish the firefighters who were injured a speedy recovery. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

"The firefighters of the U.S. Forest Service come from all over the country and have been battling fires for many years. This year alone, 300 firefighting personnel are available on the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests. These firefighters work year after year in service to their country with little recognition. On behalf of the residents of Washington state and the nation, thank you for your hard work and dedication under some of the most difficult circumstances.

"This tragedy reminds us that we often take for granted the men and women who routinely put their lives on the line to protect us. Every state in the nation has experienced a serious fire and, tragically, the loss of a firefighter. This fire will be fully investigated and we will learn from it so we can prevent similar tragedies.

"I hope the families and friends of these brave firefighters can take some comfort knowing that the courage and sacrifice of their loved ones will not be forgotten."

I believe that bill was created with all good intentions but with a lack of understanding of the consequences for our nation. When people, including our legislators, don't understand the large picture, it's easy to focus on the small part to the detriment of the nation's wildland firefighting capability. It's time to revisit the bill, to educate and to make corrections. Ab.

"Try to pick natural firebreaks such as wet meadows, creek beds, wet swampy areas, and rock slides" Part 2, Page 12.

"Large rockslides (right) can be effective deployment sites, but firefighters should deploy their shelters well away from grass, brush, and trees." Part 2, Page 14.

Is there any chance that the four firefighters who went into the rocky area were just doing what they were trained to do and just didn't recognize the convective hazards? Is there a chance that firefighters with similar training, experience, and education would have done the same thing?

Todd

But lets talk about some facts:

• We all are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our own safety.
• Firefighting is inherently dangerous; loss of life is possible.
• Fireline leaders are human and it is always possible for them to make mistakes.
• Making leaders fearful of making mistakes is not the answer.

Now, just for the heck of it let’s think about a couple of things:

• How many deaths and disabling injuries have taken place during professional sports events?
• Have the players and coaches ever been charged with a crime?
• How about the referee? Well, they are supposed to keep the players under control and playing safe!

I did not mean to compare firefighting with professional sports; there is no comparison…we actually are productive members of society. But the point I was trying to make is what we do is sometimes dangerous…it is a fact…and we all accepted that.

People will make mistakes in life. The key was it intentional?

So who made the mistakes? I don’t know, I have no first hand knowledge of everyone’s actions that day. But I do know that criminally prosecuting someone for mistakes on the fireline is only going to make everything for everyone worse.

One last point…I just checked in the IQCS database for a “John R. Parker”. Seems that the only two people in the IQCS database don’t match the John R. Parker in the affidavit. Hummmmmm, so we have an investigator conducting an investigation who doesn’t even have his qualifications on file in the official source. And then again…when did he take his last refresher training, is he current with his quals? Kinda makes you wonder just a little bit about his ability to conduct an informed or competent investigation.

BLM Boy

Forest Service veterans worry about precedent
www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/301405246229736

The prospect became reality Wednesday when federal manslaughter charges were filed against former crew boss Ellreese Daniels.

U.S. Forest Service veterans believe it was the first time criminal charges had ever been filed in connection with wildland fire deaths, and said it could worsen a growing sense among firefighters that their homes, jobs and pensions aren't worth the seasonal thrill of knocking down flames.

"I would think this is going to have a real chilling effect on the folks that are out there, the boots on the ground," said Jim Furnish, a retired headquarters official who led the Thirtymile fatality investigation for the Forest Service.

Furnish said after leaving the agency several years ago that he believed some Thirtymile supervisors and managers should have faced more severe discipline. None was ever fired.

Even so, the announcement of criminal charges so many years after the fire surprised Furnish and others.

"I have to admit I'm kind of flabbergasted," he said.

Furnish suggested that allegations that Daniels lied about his role might have spurred prosecutors to take a tougher approach.

Earlier, some of his statements prompted Furnish's investigative team to revise their report that Daniels had surely ordered the firefighters off the slope where they died.

[snip]

Retired Forest Service fire investigator Dick Mangan is even more blunt, suggesting that federal prosecutors took their sweet time examining every one of Daniels' actions -- a luxury he didn't have in the midst of a 9,300-acre blaze.

"Sometimes we have a decision space of 30 seconds, a minute, two minutes -- and you don't always get it right," said Mangan, a three-decade Forest Service veteran who has since served in active operations and safety posts.

He questioned whether the charges were motivated by publicity or politics.

"Five and a half years later, they have perfect 20-20 hindsight and they can find things wrong? I don't find that very beneficial to the fire service," Mangan said.

"In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

The sworn affidavit of John R. Parker (USDA-OIG Special Agent) consistently VIOLATES Public Law 107-203 by relying upon information from the Forest Service investigative record, the Forest Service Administrative Review Team, and the Forest Service Oral Reply Team.

This is a clear and willful violation of the law by Special Agent Parker. The U.S. Attorneys Office for the Eastern District of Washington also allowed this violation to be entered on their criminal complaint filed on December 19th.

Here is the link to the 52 Page Affidavit of Special Agent Parker

So, who really violated the law here? Seems pretty obvious.

President Bush, Secretary Johanns, Undersecretary Rey, Chief Bosworth, and Chief Harbour now all have factual information that they can act on, and it is on the record here at They Said and will soon be shared with the Press from numerous reliable sources.

Lobotomy

Mellie,

Let me give you the perspective from someone who has had a son killed in a wildfire.

Levi, was killed on Storm King along with 13 other firefighters. When Levi was killed I blamed many people. There were many mistakes made. Ken, was able to realize way before me that Levi had some culpability in his death. Right after his death we all were given a claim for the things that were in his red pack. After about the 4th or 5th time getting a letter back wanting to know how many socks he had in his red pack, we both had it and said we wanted 14 million dollars (it did get their attention). We were told we could sue the government. But that wasn't our goal, we wanted to change some things. Mostly being able to ask a question if things aren't feeling right. Ken blamed people that we later found out shouldn't have been blamed. We all must realize that was in the first months of Levi's death.

Twelve years later I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. The people in charge do not plan on having firefighters die nor do the firefighters go to work planning on dying, they all go to work to make a living at something they love. We hope that everyone stays safe, but we do realize that accidents happen.

It will not help to charge someone for a firefighter's death, it will just cause good firefighters to not be squad bosses, IC3's and etc. Many good firefighters will leave for fear of being charged when an accident happens.

There surely must be another way to approach this. We wish that congress would not try to be so politically correct and do what is fair and right.

Ken and Kathy

The Thirtymile Investigation Report and other materials have been located at www.fs.fed.us/fire ; at the moment the whole Forest Service website is down for maintenance so I couldn't get at it to link here.

It is worthwhile reading both the complaint and the investigation and other materials including the OSHA citations. There were long discussions on "They Said" about the investigation and the OSHA citations and a lot of concern was expressed about safety. A number of significant changes regarding safety have been made - a lot of people worked hard to do this. And we still have fatalities - more work on safety to be done by all of us.

I'm not sure it is productive to blame Tom Harbour and Dale Bosworth for actions by the US Attorney. They have no ability to convince a US Attorney to do anything - they'd be accused of interference. Harbour and Bosworth's responsibilities are to be sure safe practices are in use, that those practices are reviewed and revamped when investigations show the practices are not working. Too often it's personal actions that lead to fatalities - how do we deal with that as firefighters and managers? We work in a dangerous world and this is a sad, sad story, repeated too many times of people who have died and the too many people who are affected by this.

Reread the investigation, the OSHA citations, the criminal complaint, To me, it's about safety and our responsibility. I'm sad about the criminal complaint - is it meant to ensure compliance with safety procedures? I really don't know what " justice" is when 4 people die and others are endangered, all I know is I am sad.

Bud

Links to all the 30mile documents and reports are listed on the Documents Worth Reading on the Archives page. The FS web has been down but some links go to the Lessons Learned website. Ab.

I found who to send the letters to, but I keep going off and need to
calm down before I write it.........

So here is the info for everyone else.

United States Attorney's Office
920 W. Riverside Ave , Suite 340
P.O. Box 1494
Spokane, Washington 99201
Phone: (509) 353-2767
Fax: (509) 353-2766

James A. McDevitt US Attorney

Public Affairs Officer
Emily Langlie emily.langlie@usdoj.gov
(206) 553-4110

mjs

As we all struggle with the news of charges in ThirtyMile (4 years after the fact) so many of the posting are on point. I just want to add that politically, there are a number of folks in the Senate & House who have offered to address the current law.

Whether that means amending it, repealing it, holding hearings to address the unintended consequences, I don't know. As we have so often seen, agencies such as the D.A. poke their noses into environments of which they have no expertise and this is the result.

The need to address this issue & minimize the impact to the fire program and effects of the current law on firefighters has to be tempered with the respect due to the families of those lost. The Forest Service has had ample time to "educate" without interfering yet has done noting to diffuse the situation.

There must be a deliberate, well thought out plan to address this whether it be through Congress, the press etc. I am hopeful organizations such as the IAWF & others will collectively work with the FWFSA to present a united front in an effort to resolve the matter. We're certainly open to any and all ideas.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Fed up

signed: Wildland Firefighter - NOT a Forestry Tech or Biologist

Directions I received on 2/25/05 regarding how to obtain Professional Liability Insurance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are simple instructions for obtaining Professional Liability Insurance and reimbursement from the Government for ½ the amount.

1. Make contact with an insurance company that offers Professional Liability Insurance for Federal employees and apply. Go for the 1 million dollar policy and this will give you $100,000 for legal fees Wright and Co. is one source. One provider may offer a different policy than another. Go to the attached web site for additional info.

www.wrightandco.com/Plans/liability.htm

You can also conduct a Google search and locate another provider.

2. After you have applied, are insured and have received a receipt, you may start the process for reimbursement.

3. Gather the following to build a package and process through your Business Administrative Section.

1. Copy of your Receipt from the Insurance Company.
2. Copy of a completed SF-1164. (See example)
3. Copy of the Omnibus Letter. (See attachment)

It is your responsibility to make contact with the insurance providers and ask the right questions so you have a sound understanding and are comfortable with what is provided. My intent is to provide information on this subject and I'm not directing anyone to obtain Professional Liability Insurance.

/s/ DLK

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PROFESSIONAL FEDERAL LIABILITY
Government Agencies are required to reimburse up to 50% of the premium for this plan

Imagine this...
Three IRS employees found themselves defendants in a lawsuit brought by an individual who was convicted of tax crimes. They were found guilty of leaking information regarding the investigation. The penalties ranged from $150,000 to $1,000,000 between the three of them.
and...
A federal law enforcement officer pursuing a suspect on foot, and in the line of duty, accidentally runs into an innocent bystander. The person incurred several injuries and has decided to sue for medical bills and lost wages due to missed work. (for the rest, go to the website)

Is there a book coming out on 30mile soon?
Is this stuff related to something like that?
Where is this coming from?

Todd

From the Okanogan-Wenatchee NF Forest Supervisor:

The Forest Service has been informed this morning that the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Spokane has filed a complaint with a grand jury seeking an indictment of an Okanogan and Wenatchee Forest employee. The complaint is based on actions our employee took in his role as crew boss during the Thirtymile tragedy in 2001 and for statements he made afterward. The complaint alleges four counts of involuntary manslaughter and seven of false statements. We have now begun to receive news media calls on this matter.

Since this is a legal proceeding, we are not privy to many details of charges or the reasons they came to be filed so long after the event. It is important to understand that, even if a federal grand jury issues an indictment as a result of the complaint, this is merely a finding by the jury that federal prosecutors have raised sufficient question to indicate that a formal trial and consideration of the evidence is warranted. An indictment is not a finding of guilt. Our employee is represented by a public defender. Grand jury action on the complaint is not expected until the end of January or February.

My immediate reaction to this news is a profound feeling of disappointment that it has all come to this. The announcement more than five years after the event and just days before Christmas is especially disturbing to me. Thirtymile was a tragic, extraordinary fire. Still, I have never seen any indication that anyone intentionally put firefighters at risk. Our focus since 2001 has been on improvements to make firefighters safer, including changes in training to help them better anticipate or recognize changes in fire behavior that signal the need to disengage and fall back to safe areas.

Since this is a legal matter in the courts, I’m sure our legal counsel would advise us not to comment on it. If you are contacted by the news media on this subject, you may wish to refer them to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Spokane at (509) 353-2767.

Thought you might want to post? - JIMBO

follow-up note from JIMBO:
From the local Forest - Apparently what has happened is that the US
Attorney's office has filed a complaint with a grand jury seeking an
indictment of an employee.

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Manslaughter charges reported in deaths of 30 Mile firefighters
The Associated Press

Spokane, Wash. -- KREM-TV reports that federal prosecutors have charged the crew boss with involuntary manslaughter for the deaths of four firefighters at the Thirty Mile Fire.

Court documents says Ellreese Daniels was in charge of the firefighters who died July tenth, 2001, in the Chewuch (CHEW'-uch) River Canyon near Winthrop.

Firefighters Tom Craven, Devin Weaver, Jessica Johnson, and Karen Fitzpatrick all died when the fire raged out of control and swept over the top of them as they deployed their fire shelters on a rocky slope.

Federal prosecutors say the crew boss was grossly negligent and his decisions caused the deaths of the firefighters.

KREM-TV also reports that prosecutors have also charged Daniels with lying to investigators. Daniels reportedly said he told the firefighters who died to move off the rocky slope and they did not follow his instructions. Prosecutors say Daniels never told the firefighters to move.

Daniels has not been arrested. He will make his first appearance in federal court in early January.

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