Night Flying is not worth it!

[abercrombie]

Night flying:

Southern California Local Government Fire Agencies
(Orange County Fire Authority, LA County Fire, LA City Fire):

Are you listening? Night flying is not worth it!

www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mid-air-collision31-2009oct31,0,3152704.story

FC180

[heliodoc]

While there are a number of us that would like to argue the point ......

Here's one...

LAFD and the rest have a mission to do that none others have chosen......

Whether or not the argument flag goes up for all those other land management agencies claiming the NVG work and other night operations.

Let's look at it in the real light.... The LAFD, USCG, Nav, Army and others have been operatin' in the night environments for years. That is SOME of their domain.

I FULLY AGREE..... The others who are NOT doing this operationally and I mean USFS BLM and other land management agencies who require 1500 ++++ nights, instrument, etc DO NOT even come close to these guys.

The risk averse land management agencies have been arguing NVG's for YEAAAAAAARS and LAFD and the others have TRAINED with REAL criteria and to say night flying is not worth it... makes come to mind MORE of the land management agencies having to come into the REAAAAL world of all risk/ all hazard operations. The last 10 years have had a OPTEMPO on all the "other" agencies who do this year around and NOT just on 9-10 month wildland fire operations, moving at a pace that wildland fire could only dream of to keep budget continuity.

Being a pilot and former wildland firefighter....... only those who have held the controls and not JUST ridden in the right seat observing..... know full well what our ORM and risk assessment may be in these night flights.

Land management agencies can borrow the term all they want about "situational awareness" as if a buzzword...

My brothers in those cockpits in the last few days have given the ultimate price.... and that God it was not over some ceoanthus (sp) brush or from some other vegetation.

This should be a wake up call for those in the wildland fire biz and for the 9-10 month a year contractors and EVEN LAFD..... Lives are worth the runs
but the vegetation and homes on the hillsides are not....but this is what they trained for and like wildland firefighters, we want to help in the worst of ways at times..... only to succumb to some serious SA and night flight operational issues.

While wildland firefighters can get some sleep... there is usually a liiittttle more at stake when these boyz and girls are checking their rotor RPM and start sequences when pulling the trigger and making sure N1, N2, and overtemp are within checklist limits....a little more technical than waking up in the night looking for ones engine....


Let me tell you... I lived in both worlds

Sleep tight and remember those aviators that have given all for the OPTEMPO no matter for who.......

[abercrombie]

From the Ab account:

Night flying: Heliodoc's post

"LAFD and the rest have a mission to do that none others have chosen......"

That's because it is in their mission. Right now, do to inept leadership in the USFS, they can't do anything that might confuse a forestry tech with a firefighter..

Land management agencies can borrow the term all they want about "situational awareness" as if a buzzword..."

I spent 3 years as the engineer and acting capt at one of the busiest green engines in one of the most tactfully challenging working enviorments in the federal system. Situational awareness was just not a "buzzword". Not sure why you believe that, maybe you worked with some unmotivated folks. But we drilled it all the time, among the other things boys and girls train on. Communication, hoselays, line cutting, SCBAs, fuel models, weather, teamwork, leadership, first-aid and so forth. Situational awareness applies to crews, engines pilots and bus drivers. Part of my situational awareness is being a part of yours and everyone elses out there in a positive, constructive way of course.

Many of these drills and real life incidents were done 24/7, 365 days a week. Situational awareness was more than just a "Buzzword" as safety and accident prevention depended on it. It didn't matter, fire, car accident, rescue or simple project work....

"While wildland firefighters can get some sleep... there is usually a liiittttle more at stake when these boyz and girls are checking their rotor RPM and start sequences when pulling the trigger and making sure N1, N2, and overtemp are within checklist limits....a little more technical than waking up in the night looking for ones engine...."

I spent several years as a flight crew foreman on a a very busy Type two IA ship in So.Ca., and several years CWN'ing as a crewman and manager. Yes, pilots have a difficult and task orientated job, but it is also a team effort. Situational awareness (SA) starts with the pilot AND the boys and girls. CRM and SA starts with the preflight, flying, briefings, and fueling among other things. I have seen and so have some of the other boys and girls things a pilot may have not and let them know. For example; open or unlatched doors, parts or tools laying around, coffee cups left somewhere they shouldn't be, leaks, smoke, and aghast, WIRES, other aircraft, hung buckets, and other stuff that may not look right.

So, it's just not a "buzzword". Many of us practice it. With the experience you have, you should explore working with those that may need some positive reinforcement or training in that area.

"Let me tell you... I lived in both worlds."

I still do....

"Sleep tight and remember those aviators that have given all for the OPTEMPO no matter for who......."

And you sleep tight knowing that there are many of us that practice Situational awareness...

FGS.

[abercrombie]

Night Flying.

Mr. Harris,

The incident I believe you are referencing in your post with the unfortunate loss of an LACoFD pilot, was an incident that was midair collision with a USFS helicopter over the Angeles National Forest. I am not too sure if the pilot of the USFS helicopter made it but I do know that there was a surviving pilot off the LACoFD ship.

I do agree with you that night flying does have its place like on the Tea and Jesusita Fires. This is an example of where night flying between many aircraft worked well. But any time you get in the air there is always the risk. There will always be people that are for and against this; no matter if there are structures threatened or human life in danger we must always look at the risk vs. gain. It is very unfortunate what happened off the San Diego Coast but there are also many things that can be learned from this tragic event.

SOCALFS

[abercrombie]

From the Ab account:

Night Flying.

FC 180 strong statement! What you basing it on???

I am not a pilot, but as an initial attack BC for LAC I have had WUI w/35 MPH NE winds, I stated on initial report
that we were going to loose 200 home by morning but, due to 4 mediums helicopters, good work by two D-8s,
Hand Crews, Engine Crews and a very capable USFS ANG Type 3 ST, the fire was stopped by sun up..

LAC takes a measured risk vs gain process, such as -- are structures threatened, wires or other hazards in the
area -- and then decides if to commit air resources at night.

FC 180 as I recall we loose two to three AIR FIGHTERS annually should we stop day time air operations firefighting?

As far as I know Los Angles County Fire (LAC) is the only Department that has lost a Pilot in night time operations
on the North Fork Fire, July 24, 1977 Pilot Tom Grady. Probably today we would not commit to that fire as it was
well within the Angeles National Forest with no structures threatened.

I could make an argument that if night air operations were allowed on the STATION FIRE night one, we would not
have lost two FIREFIGHTERS.

jp Harris ret. LAC

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account:

FGS

I must have struck a chord. I retired from Army Aviation and still am flying commercially.

If I remember right.... The USFS and other wildland fire agencies have been borrowing and "copying" the military and aviation world for about the last 15 years.

15 years ago DOI and Ag did not REALLY have SA and CRM in its vocabulary. CRM originally started in the cockpit not in the interior of an wildland fire Type 1 thru 6 fire engines

I,too, still practice SA and CRM when I fly skydivers, kids, and cargo. I, too, still know what am talking about. I use it everyday as a pilot, aircraft mechanic, emergency manager -in-training AND a former TOLC, ENOP, HECM. Again 15 yrs ago CRM and SA wasn't running around in the agencies as freely as it does now.....making it appear to be a buzzword. That is how "alot" of folks in the aviation biz view everybody's use of CRM and SA

Sorry.... but really I am not.....

No Name

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account:

No Name

Maybe I'm missing something, but the arrogance and self-satisfied, self-congratulatory tone of your post is astounding.
I'm confident that most will take it for what it is; it doesn't even deserve any kind of reply.

Hugh Carson

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account:

Sorry Hugh

Did not mean to say that folks in the aviation industry have said things of the overuse of SA, CRM, ORM. It appears that the natural resources field has gone into the mode of making jokes about it and so have some pilots in life

I have to say I am sorry for my post. But the fact remains that the safety culture in many organizations is a great idea but again in many of the organizations I have worked for they seem to get on with life without the paralysis of the analysis.

Firefighters and aviation personnel have been making mistakes like everyone else in life, me included.

I read Lessons Learned and NTSB reports and many other safety pubs and even here on wildland fire. In my simple little world.... the same mistakes seem to keep getting made. How about this years mistakes of the Agencies (USFS) waiting more than 1 hour for aircraft dispatch to one of the major conflagrations this year.... seems like some forest officers PREACH SA and CRM ad ORM and yet can not get the dispatch levels moving. I am sure Wx has had alot to do with it..

Problems with driptorches, verry pistols with wrong rounds in the barrel, etc etc ... The list goes on.

So if I do not warrant a reply, I can kindly depart this forum anytime. BUT in my time with all the Safety courses and agencies that preached it while I was there, I had to look deep into myself and ask what I was doing... was it safe? Is it going to shorten my life? I sit around with many old retired pilots and some have welcomed my ideas and some not.

I read these forums while on on unemployment while building a garage and flying as much as I can. I recently got laid off as a Firewise coordinator in the State I am from. The "Agency" I worked for is suffering the cuts many States have. My position has been handed off to a couple of foresters who are near their 30 year retirements and may or may not EVEN get active in the Firewise program. Suffice to say, seeing positions handed off to near future retirees that have preached SA and CRM from their office chairs while still drawing a paycheck, and I am looking for work....wellll you get the idea

So I am sorry for the rant of "self " this or that... I have seen it PLENTY in lots of natural resource agencies. Again USFS USDOI and other did not come up with CRM, ORM, or SA by themselves. Alot of it was spinoffs from the military culture... such as... land mgmt agencies using "Commanders Intent" ya gotta love it... That is why the use of buzzwords. Buzzwords need some kind of action and it is happening in the field...

No Name

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account:

Re night flying:

I have used Helicopters on a large Federal fire for a spot fire at night, and we probably would not have caught the spot, and lost
homes. In that case it was the right tool for the job, and we had it available from LA City to make use of it. As with all aviation,
it is risk vs gain. The pilots had the choice if they were comfortable with the mission or not, and they were great with 3 ships
rotating through drops, as a fourth was used as a Helco platform.

Everything has it's place. Just My honest opinion is that night Flying is just another tool in the tool box, that some agencies have
taken advantage of. Do the Land Management Agencies need to? Maybe, but there needs to be more training, and purchasing
of equipment that the feds are not ready to fork out money for yet.

I would like to see more night flying over fires especially in the arena of Air Attack utilizing Drones to give better SA during Night
Ops, but we are not there yet, probably before I retire. Should the feds have trained Pilots, with the equipment to fly at night?
Yes, especially if we have folks on the ground for Medevac, and to hold critical pieces of line. But remember we should not
over utilize them as a political piece or for heli mopping.

srjs

[abercrombie]

from the Ab account:

Wow Hugh!

We finally got the kind of fire aviation discussion going here that has been sorely lacking in this forum for a long time.

Something I tell trainees and pilots both is that in my 20+ years now of doing air attack group supervision -ATGS- (it took me 20+ more years on the ground to get here) I have both done and seen about every stupid thing that can possibly be done with aircraft. I now have many dead friends.

Some years back I started my portion of an airport briefing with "Welcome to another day of doing stupid things with aircraft". I was told by the Powers not to do that again because several folks present had been put into the awkward position of supervising from the ground our air operations which was something they knew nothing about.

That was in the same state No Name talks about and I participated in the same sort of stuff there this past year. This time I made no bones about it that I am not putting up with it again. We mutually agreed that I will never work there again. No Name you are still an old friend.

The Swiss Cheese Model there is set up for serious catastrophe.

By the way, I have quietly figured out through various means that all federal employees, and that includes ADs now by definition, can grieve or otherwise work through federal processes to try to fix obvious safety problems. That is especially true now for federally funded (FEMA) state sponsored fires. In fact FEMA is very interested in a test case right now to prove that point. I am sorry to say that will likely take a major accident to make that happen. FEMA would evidently go that far, though, towards breaking up the the Swiss Cheese.

And to use another one of our new terms....the Just Culture is the last thing from the mind of entrenched non-federal entities (and federal!) who will just continue to do the same thing until they kill more of our aviator friends. And probably some folks on the ground too.

NMAirBear