The Ideal Type 3 engine

[LTP]

What features would everyone like to see on their type 3 engines if they could have whatever they wanted. What is everyones preference as far as pump panel placement? What chassis, engine, and wheelbase. Who would be your choice builder.

[oregonfirefighter]

A good professional crew! A Darley PTO pump, midship panel, 2000 gallon pumpkin, back up radios (none of them digital), a winch, good lighting (both scene and warning), all wheel drive, good spare TIRES (the right size too) and a good portable volume pump. Besides that, as much water, foam and gel as we could safely carry.
Hmm this is starting to sound more like a Tactical Tender
Oh and since it is Christmas and we can dream... Satellite radio, a good 12volt cooler and a small cook top.

[Pyro5755]

Omanomanomanoman...

Ya know, a guy could get his beak bent, trying to discuss the "best" design of wildland engine...

Reliability is Numero Uno.

This may qualify me as a silverback, but I still value the manually-operated controls over any computer, for a wildland engine. If there's a choice between an electric switch vs: levers engaging gears, I'll choose lever & gear. I still operate a pump with at least one hand on the panel...

Guaranteed: If (actually, "when") ANYTHING on an engine fails, it will be at the Worst Possible Moment in the working life of that equipment.

So I'd choose every single design feature around that one goal: Reliability of the vehicle as a whole (strength and longevity crossed with simplicity, combined with ease of field replacement or repair).

Might make it a little less sexy, a little harder to learn to drive or operate... but it'll probably work when you need it.

More to the point of the OP: I do think a midship pump with true pump-and-roll is handy.

Just my never-so-humble opinion; but I'm a dinosaur, so...

Be Safe, All.

[BorderGuy]

Pyro, on the note of reliability, wouldn't it be great if we could go back to the mid-80's style motors with very little electronic interaction!

[William Riggles]

Design it so when you wash it down junk doesn't get caught under and behind stuff where you can't wash it out.

[Pyro5755]

BorderGuy, William Riggles; you guys sound like you've been around engines for a week or two

BG, you caused me to rethink a little; I really believe we peaked (at least, so far) in the development of wildland T3's about 1982-84. I don't need or want the engine to operate itself; I'd just as soon do it, thank you!

Looking around nowdadays, every major agency has some beautiful rigs, with lots of neat shtuff and cool features. And stuff's failing before they even get from the manufacturer to the lucky recipient, just from cruising down the highways, with no load on!

And everyone talks about their newer rigs as being "nice to drive", "comfortable", "lots of box-space", "great seats"... while complaining that they can't get the engine home from the repair shop without the same problem they went in for cropping up yet again.

Remember when each Forest had maybe one engine that would fail once a year or so, and we called it "that lemon POS..."?

Now, every District has three or four that qualify as lemons; many Districts keep a couple of old retired buggies around as spares... because they know they'll start, run, drive, and pump!

My son (a current USFS oppen-tater on a new -62) and I sat down last night and discussed this thread. The lad grew up on fire engines; he remembers how they were built and plumbed... and WHY. I was horrified to learn some of the design features that have been dropped or changed.

Now, we have tanks with no bottom drains or clean-out sumps; relief valve filters and pump flow-meters you can't get to for cleaning; 1 1/2" plumbing on the #13 line; check valves in the #8 line (makes it a little hard to backfill a suction hose); not to mention all the high-tech electronics that don't tolerate dust, wet, or vibration very well...

My conclusion from our discussion last night: The single most important feature we could include on an ideal T3 wildland/WUI engine would be a return to agency-employed District mechanics, who are responsible for (and proud of) maintaining and repairing their fleet of equipment... the mechanics who actually take ownership in their performance.

Remember the crusty old District Mechanics who firmly believed that we FF's merely "borrowed" "their" fire engine for the season, and returned it to them in time for the annual, so that the mechanic could set aright everything the FF's had "screwed up"? When the FEO 's would have to report to the District shop to pick up the engine after annuals... and weren't allowed near the engine until the mechanic had administered a stern lecture on "How to take Better Care of MY Baby"?

Those old-time motorheads would never have allowed some of the boneheaded design changes that are now standard; after all, they'd have to fix them!

Wow, sorry folks... didn't intend to go off on another rant here.

Be Safe, All.

(Since I'm already in rant-mode, I'd like to address one of my personal-favorite pet peeves: All the freakin' systems sensors! Speaking of reliability: now we have sensors on all of the power unit filters and systems. So you have a fuel filter plug-up during a 21-day fire assignment (Gee whiz, that never happens) and you change it out in the field. Unless you just happen to be carrying a systems analyisis computer as part of your tool complement and can reset the sensor, the rig still runs like... well, you know. Somebody with some heavy brass on the collars needs to nut-up, throw a fit at the EPA and fall in it! What does EPA think we do with these rigs? Trailer them to truck shows?)

OK; all better now...

[firehog]

I use to have to spend a week or two with the mechanic crawling around underneath the engine doing the brakes fixing every little loose wire, I loved it then I had ownership and kept her(The Fire Truck) running all summer and if something went wrong I wasn't afraid to dive into it, heck my first fire season on the Clevland our pump went out during the Palm fire on the berdu. My Engineer took us back to camp pulled the pump with our help, the next day he and the F.S. mechanic went and got a new pump somewhere and put it back in while we hopped on extra seats on other engines had her back on the road by next shift.
My vote is for the Model 1 CDF for type 3's and the great basin package for the type 6's they are very nice to FIGHT fire on.

[firedzr]

Pyro's observations about over-loaded trucks prompted me to post another "Heads Up" for all engine operators out there ~

Know how much your rig weighs with a full tank of water and filled with fuel, loaded with gear and crew. Stay within the manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Limit (GVW rating). Those GVW's can vary a great deal. For example, a CDF Model 5 's GVW rating is 26,000 pounds. A Model 14 is 33,000 pounds while the new Model 34's weigh in at 35,000 pounds.

I've found that most public scales in our area will not charge for weighing a fire truck seeing it as a public service. If you can't remember one more detail about your rig, make a sticker or label with the truck's weight and put it in an obvious place. Then, when you pull up to a rural bridge that has a weight limit, you can refer to your truck's GVW and take appropriate action. Avoid the potential damage and resulting embarrassment of fishing your rig out of the river by simply knowing your truck's gross weight.

[pdaniels]

The Ideal Type 3 engine will always be a mythical creature...

I agree with FC180,space is important, but I'm a bit confused... Our new Model 34 has significantly more storage space than our Model 14 - but we got a Placer, not an HME.

The Ideal Type 3 engine needs to be big... Not tactical tender big, but larger than an F550. 500-750 gallons of water, room to carry 4 to 5 firefighters, a pump that can push water a good distance, and enough hose to be able to make an impact upon arrival. I like having the ability to safely attack a "room and contents" fire as well as 5 acres running in the brush.

I have loved the old ones, but as someone who has been around the better part of three decades, I do enjoy the creature comforts of the new ones - air ride cabs, air conditioning, and the all important multi band weather radio with training disk capacity.
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[chief401]

Why Larger than a 550 ... they will handle 600 gal tank, 200' redline, 3 cyl diesel pump, 1.5" preconnect 300 gpm for structure, or pump and roll the 1" lines and put out the grass fire.