AVUE questions

[Young And Still Learning]

A few quick questions for you all...

I've spent the past few years working for a non-federal agency, and am looking at getting back in the fed system after this season. My main question is how does AVUE (or the HR people, or whatever) rate my non-fed time? Do they go by wages, or by position descriptions and responsibilities? The position I'm in now is roughly equivalent to a GS-6/7 in responsibility, but quite a bit less than that in wages, and I'm curious how that affects how my application is evaluated in AVUE.

Thanks for anything anyone can tell me!

[MLJ]

Well, as a FireHire SME, when I rate apps, (these are done by FIRE folks in Sac each round, then reviewed by HR folks), if it is a Merit app, (someone who has been permanent USFS before), we look at time in grade at the position applied for, or one GS level lower. then we look at quals, then experience. Are you ENGB rated? ICT4? These would rate you very well for a GS-7 position. ENOP? This would help as well. Do you have all required classes for the position listed in the 5109.17? Or 310-1, if coming from somewhere else? What classes are you missing? How much have you done the job? Fully qualified? or on a detail? Acting? all these help. Tell us exactly what you did, such as "filled in as ENGB on numerous Type 4 and Type 5 Fires in the absence of the captain, and on his days off, for a total of 145 days", or " was detailed as FFT1 for 21 shifts on Backbone Fire on handcrew, supervising and leading squad in hotline, line construction, and mop-up. ". This tells us something. Put all of your current and past Red Card ratings on your app, where it is easy to find. You would be surprised by the number of folks that just put " fought fire" , "worked on Engine", or "did hotshot things" as their entire experience, or something similar. This tells us nothing. What did you do in Fire, Helitack? Engine? Hotshots? Where? How Long? How many Fires?

If it's a DEMO app, (someone coming from another Agency, or from private industry), we look at quals and experience more than time in grade. Salary doesn't mean much. Put all your red card ratings, and all the stuff I explained above. Tell us about all your Fire classes and training. How many fires you went on each season, by size or Type. What you did on them. Be DETAILED. The more info you give us, the better you will rate out. And put it all in a logical, organized fashion. Use short paragraphs or bullet statements. I don't care for an entire page of narrative if it doesnt tell me anything, I'm trying to pull quals, certificates, classes, and actual line experience out of an app. If I can't figure out if you were Helitack, engine, or handcrew from your app, I might rate it low and move on. We have hundreds to thousands of apps to go through each hiring round. the more clear and organized yours is, the quicker it will be rated, and you will rate higher for vacancies.

Remember, PUT REFERENCES THAT YOU WORKED DIRECTLY FOR, AND THAT SOMEONE CAN CALL EASILY THE WEEK OF HIRING. The number 1 reason for apps getting passed over, or rated lower, is no good references, or references that do not know about your Fire quals and experience, or can not be contacted. Use past supervisors as your best bet for references.

Good luck, the USFS in Region 5 still has many permanent vacancies. the trick is getting hired, and the secret to that is simple, a good, clear, detailed application that is organized, easy-to-read, and tells us your story.

[Young And Still Learning]

Thanks MLJ, that helps a lot! I'll be sure to remember that advice for the next round of hiring.

Now to delve deeper, say I apply for a DEMO GS-7 position, but the highest grade I've worked in fed service is a GS-5. Also say I have several years of experience at the GS-6 level for a non-fed agency, and have all the quals required for the GS-7 fed position. Is there anything in AVUE that will filter my app out before the cert gets to the SME/selecting official if I don't have the time in grade at the next lowest level (GS-6)?

Now, hypothetically (because I'm curious how AVUE works), say I apply for a DEMO GS-9 position with several years of experience in a non-fed agency at the GS-7 equivalent, but the last time I worked for the feds was as a GS-5. Assume I have all the required/desired quals and experience to be a quality candidate. Is there anything in AVUE that would filter out my application from the cert before it gets to the selecting official? Or does AVUE forward all the applications to the SME/selecting official who would then figure out who's qualified?

I hope this makes some sort of sense, and apologize if it doesn't. I'm just trying to figure out how AVUE really works after being told for years just to "do whatever it takes to make it through AVUE" so I'd would show up on the cert for seasonal jobs.

[MLJ]

You have it figured out. There is nothing I know of in AVUE itself that would filter your app out before being seen by an SME unless something wasn't filled out right. Be careful and fill out the checkboxes about what you did, locations, and all required info. AVUE just funnels the apps to the SME's. If you have a good looking app, that will get it to the SME's, whose job is to make sure all qualified candidates apps get considered. We're not trying to wash apps out, but the opposite, I'm trying to make a good pool for the Forests to select from. I want as many folks as possible to make it through. We have every round folks like you who will show up on GS 7, 8, and even 9 certs if you do the app right. Remember, for GS-9 level positions there could be additional selecting factors, like prior experience as Duty Officer in some positions, or ICT3 experience. But at the very least you should make it to the cert level. Once your app is looking good, and has all the things I said earlier, by the time it gets to the SME's you should have no problem getting on somebodies short list for a position.

P.S. Here on the Six Rivers in Northern cal, I have GS-7 and 8 openings for next round in Orleans, California....might want to consider that location if you are qualed...

[stringtown]

Just something I wanted add from my experience on AVUE- make sure you read the choices for the KSA's carefully- sometimes two are worded exactly the same with a one word difference like "supervised" versus "assisted in"- I didn't pay close attention one time and the app. was never even sent to SME because AVUE weeded it out as unqualified- once it's closed- that's it.

[milehighbar]

And if all else fails, you cannot go wrong with using Hannah.


http://www.loomishannah.com/

[EFP]

If I can add my two-cents from personal experience, maybe it'll help.

When you are all said-and-done, and submit your application, go back to the original menu and click 'Jobs I've Applied For'. Find your job, go in there and make sure it says you've 'Tentatively Qualified' for the position.

If you 'Failed To Pass' (or something like that), you can go back in and update your information. Once you've updated, go back and check again. Basically MAKE SURE your 'Tentatively Qualified' before the application closes, or you're a done deal.

It's pretty sad that you now are basically hired by a computer, instead of supervisors getting an application on their desk, making phone calls, and shaking hands.

[LoomisHannah]

Hello,

I thought I'd toss out a "thank you" to Milehighbar for the referral and say that the insight/advice given here is top notch! I’d add two more things:

First, I always recommend utilizing the Position Description (PD) of your target position to determine the skill sets that they will be looking for when they review your application. Having spoken to a large number of SMEs and HR folks, I’d say that one of the biggest pet-peeves of people reviewing applications is seeing PDs cut-and-pasted into work experience blocks. That pet-peeve is probably second only to incorrect phone numbers for supervisor references and/or really poor spelling. My recommendation is to use the PD as a place to generate ideas for developing content and try to be as thorough/organized as possible when explaining your distinctions, skills, and experience.

Second, Avue has the capability to screen out applicants by way of GS-level and “time-in-grade.” This means that Avue can add up all of the days/months/years that you’ve spent at the GS-07 level and determine if you meet “time-in-grade” minimums. Whether or not this feature is actually used for applicant screening is determined by HR and dependant on the level and type of position. It shouldn't be used at all for Demo applicants. However, it is my understanding that some Merit announcements use this feature (I don’t know if that is the case for the current Open and Continuous announcements – but I can probably hunt that answer down). So, if this feature is being used, private industry/outside experience will not register with Avue as counting towards the minimum "time-in-grade" qualifications. It is important to note that this can always be challenged at the ACS level (if you want to go through the effort). This is the very reason why it is a good idea for people who have left the agency (and who are trying to return) to apply both Demo and Merit (regardless of whether or not they have reinstatement eligibility). It is also the reason why people who have worked as a Wage Grade employee have had trouble promoting to a GS employee in the past. Avue has a ton of features and it is important to understand that ASC/USFS/Avue are constantly striving to fix the issues and use the system to find qualified applicants.

Of course, the “time-in-grade” minimum is something that is currently changing… That being said, it is the Basic Qualifications page in the Avue application that provides the information to Avue/HR to determine whether or not you have enough specialized experience to make it onto the cert at all… Follow the advice given by the other posters and you should be able to get past that particular screen-out feature!

Finally, most people are starting to catch on to this, but the KSA/Competencies page has groupings of Quality Group Factors that serve to rank applicants. This can also be set as a screen-out feature. It is really important to review these statements closely (as mentioned by Stringtown) and note that they are randomly generated and not in descending order of complexity. In other words, the top statement for each grouping is not necessarily the best answer.

Okay, I’m probably the only jackass who could talk about Avue all day and is happy to do so – but I’ll stop now…

Bethany E. Loomis-Hannah

[MLJ]

A lot of good specific info in the last few posts about the AVUE system. Do answer the KSA's EVEN IF YOU ARE APPLYING DEMO! If you are appplying merit, it's REQUIRED. This WILL wash you out for a Merit position if you do not answer them. This is a major reason why some Merit apps do not make the cert. With DEMO, it's not required, but a good idea. It helps the SME's immensely to figure out your qualifications. We have to determine things like your ability to communicate in writing from these. And, if you are using a resume service like the ones mentioned, make sure the resume has at least SOME info that is different/more thorough than on your app. If I see an app and a resume stapled to it that are the exact same thing, all the info I need as an SME is there on the app portion. We see a lot of resumes that dont say anything new, or even reorganize the info. If your resume organizes the info better, or has clearer info, then send it, but if not, it may be a waste of your money. We see hundreds of these resumes from the same companies, in the same format, each round....Some are well written, some not. The companies can only work with the info given. So give them detailed info, correct dates and locations, clear instructions on what you need in there, if you use these companies. And follow up in AVUE like the previous posts stated to see your status. A lot of folks do not do that, and wonder why they don't make a cert, it's almost always because something was not filled out correctly. It's up to YOU, the applicant, to make sure it's all correct, not the agency. Take your time, type up a good, clear, easy-to-understand app, with correct info, and good, informed references that can be reached easily, and you will make it to selections.

One last thing, SPELL CHECK your applications!! These are for permanent, mostly supervisory positions, computer skills and basic spelling will be part of the daily job. If you can't spell, it is a red flag to the SME's that maybe you will not be able to do all the administrative duties of the positions. This is what spell check is for, if you have difficulty spelling, use the feature.


good luck, all! I look forward to seeing all these good apps next round!!

[LoomisHannah]

MLJ, your experience as an SME is invaluable and I appreciate that you (and everyone else on this thread) are sharing insight regarding the application and hiring process. I spent seven years as a firefighter with both the Forest Service and BLM and not once was a supervisor able to assist me with the type of information that you are sharing on this forum!

I do, however, want to clarify a couple of things that you mentioned about resume writing services. The federal resumes that my company develops are designed to be used as a foundation document – and to be utilized in a variety of automated hiring systems. This is something of a shift in the perception of how resumes are typically used. The format that we have created is specifically designed to have the content cut-and-pasted into Avue, USAJOBS, etc. Using a federal resume as a foundation document eliminates the need to create new content every time you apply to a different agency, or every time the agency moves to a new system.

Although there is some redundancy when it is attached as a Supporting Document in Avue, a federal resume gives the applicant the opportunity to present information in the hardest-hitting, most professional way possible – without being limited by formatting restrictions. Our format and technique was developed over several years and after hundreds of hours of research into both the resume writing industry and the federal hiring process – and it was adapted to the expectations of all of the land management agencies, not just the Forest Service. This means people can easily move between agencies without too much of a headache – an option that many folks like to keep open. In other words, there is a deliberate reason you’re seeing duplicate information in resumes attached to the Avue applications.

I am the first to tell my prospective clients that a federal resume is not required to apply to Forest Service positions (which is why we offer a wide variety of services beyond resume writing), but I have to disagree when it you say that it may be a waste of money. If you’ll forgive the metaphor, you should certainly know how to sharpen your own Pulaski, but sometimes it pays to just put it back in the cache and have someone build you a Super P instead. Besides, there are still FS vacancy announcements that require hardcopy resumes/applications, and resumes are still considered a professional gesture when it comes to networking.

I also want to say that our federal resume format has been met with glowing reviews all over the country – and we build customized resumes for each client based on the information they provide. However, we have also been teaching Federal Application Development workshops to fire management programs throughout Region 5 and beyond. During these workshops we have given out our format template to hundreds of participants – and, as a result, you will probably be seeing more and more of this format coming through FireHire with varying degrees of quality and content. It may not be the best business practice to be distributing our format/template, but I do applaud those workshop participants who have taken our insight and advice to heart - they give it their best shot. If our template helps them get jobs at the expense of someone confusing our work with theirs, so be it.

On the flip side, I know that the fire world is small and that successful applications sometimes get passed around. We’ve actually had people come to us for help with applications that contain work (verbatim) that we developed for previous clients, we’ve had people take the content of our sample resumes online and use it as their own, and we’ve even had people use their cell phones to take pictures of our examples during our workshops so that they can copy it to their own resume. This behavior hurts my business in more ways than one – and it blows my mind that people pay us a lot of hard-earned money to build them a solid application only to turn around and give it to their buddy to use for free. I’m not sure that we can do anything more to prevent this from happening, but please recognize that it does happen.

I understand that this post is slightly off topic, but I feel obliged to toss it out there…

Finally, I also look forward to making sure you’re seeing good apps this next round!