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DATE |
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| 5/9 | For several days I have been reading the ongoing
discussion or however one wishes to view it on the new S-290 vs CPS in relation
to fire behavior training. I have taught many classes of the old S-290 and am
awaiting delivery of the new version for future offerings. I have not been
fortunate enough to attend a CPS class, however I have spent time on fires where
Doug was the FBA and have learned the basics of CPS in one on one discussions
with him over the years. Having said that, I have incorporated some of the CPS
basics into S-290 classes when the information fits and clarifies the discussion
so that the students understand it.
The thing that disturbs me the most is that there appears to be a thought
process not only in fire behavior training but in all fire training that a
person attends the class and they "know" the subject. Seldom have I heard any
discussion with students that classroom training simply provides you the basics.
You learn it by applying what you learned in the classroom out in the field
WATCHING fire behavior. Module leaders need to take every opportunity to be the
teacher for their crews. When your sitting on the ridgetop, road or any other
place, take the opportunity to have the crew watch fire behavior and not be
sleeping, writing in journals and playing hackisack. Seeing the real thing and
discussing it is how you LEARN the lesson taught in the classroom.
Old retired dude |
| 5/9 | Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY,
You asked,
"So I ask you what's the end game here?"
The end game is an improvement in the pay, benefits, and working conditions for
federal wildland firefighters. As a result, the recruitment and retention of
qualified wildland firefighters, and the retention of qualified wildland fire,
fuels, and aviation managers will be stabilized. This stabilization will result
in a safer, more cost effective, and more efficient delivery of the federal
wildland fire program.
You also asked,
"What comes out of the the pay group in your opinion?"
Time will tell, but I do have hope with the new regional leadership if he
provides oversight and demands factual info from the subsaffs. During the 1991
initial SoCal Special Salary Rate Request, and the subsequent 2001 review and
update (Table 0256, OPM, 2001-2008), FWFSA members and supporters were allowed
to research, compile the data, fact check, and present the findings to the
Agency, OPM, and OMB as to the need.... and to address the underlying cost
savings..... and DEFEND the presentation. As a result, during those reviews, the
exodus was slowed.
Hopefully, with the new leadership in R-5, the employee association members of
the FWFSA will be viewed as partners and not excluded in the groups hoping to
get Region 5 of the Forest Service, and the national wildland fire program back
on track.
What I do believe is that if we had our current Regional Forester (Moore) and
our previous R-5 Fire Director (Quintanar) in place, there would be a full
understanding.. and a positive course towards correction.... of the problems we
face in the recruitment and retention of federal wildland firefighters.
If folks ever get serious, we eventually have to look at the root problem of
duties, classification, and compensation within our fire program..... The duties
and responsibilities of series 0462, 0455, 0401, or the dozen or so other series
afforded "firefighter retirement" that never had a proper classification series.
/s/ Kenneth Kempter
Southern California Chapter Director
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association |
| 5/9 | Fire Behavior/modeling in S-290 Ab,
I have noticed the large volume of posts relating to fire behavior courses
and modeling tools and thought I may as well throw my two bits in for what its
worth.
I would like to share a "philosophy" so to speak that several highly respected
leaders in the fire community, (some retired and some not) have come up with and
applied over the years to the S-390/290 curriculum in Northern California. I can
share with you that in my opinion there is a definite place for some type of
modeling in the "old" and now "new" S-290 curriculum. Should it be CPS, FLAME,
Nomo's, or Appendix B? We'll come back to that thought!
It is no secret that the last version of 290 was a watered down 390, and I
would prefer to leave the can of worms that is the re-write process alone as far
as this message is concerned. It is no secret that NWCG courses are designed to
be strengthened and encourage instructors to enhance the package and make it
their own. How many times have you sat through an S-course and had an instructor
read word for word from the slide (and these days the PowerPoint)?
Both old and new 290's were broken down (basically) into the fire
environment, fuels, weather, and topography. Nomograms or predictions was an
optional unit that based on my observations not many cadre wanted to touch.
After all who would admit to wanting to or even enjoy teaching Nomograms?
Several folks who are way smarter than me decided to keep that optional unit in
the lineup because they were able to see thru the haze to the value of that
crazy piece of paper with boxes, lines and numbers on it. The thinking was then
as it is now, we spend almost an entire week talking about the inputs to the
fire spread model, (fuel model, slope, wind speed, fine dead fuel moisture/live
fuel moisture, etc). Why not take it that one last step and show students the
outputs they could get after plugging them into some model like the Nomo, and
appendix B. For some people this is what is needed to paint the picture in their
heads and make a slide. For others it served to create confusion, especially the
nomogram.
I believe the same can be said for other models and processors. Some work for
folks better than others it just depends on the person teaching and the person
taking it in. I can tell you that the appendix B and Nomogram worked for me (I
don’t use nomos anymore). I believe I get what I need to out of them to help get
myself and the people I work with home for the holidays. Like many others, I am
still unsure how FLAME is going to fit in to the 290 world. I have high hopes
for it because despite knowing darn well that no matter how hard I look I am not
going to find that one "special thing" that will keep firefighters from paying
the ultimate price, maybe FLAME will serve to be part of that "special thing"
for someone out there who is new and in need of the slide it will provide. If it
can serve to help just one person make the right call it is worth it in my
opinion. I have a hard time believing that there are many out there who could
disagree with the intent, and that is to make safer firefighters and crew
bosses.
As I said I am still struggling to find how this new tool can/will fit into
my world. I can assure you that I will afford all the energy and time I can and
not simply shrug it off or sweep it away because it represents change. It may be
that I will use a combination of multiple processors or tools as I continue to
teach fire behavior, and as long as I don’t forget that the most valuable and
important processor sits on top of my shoulders I should be alright! Now who can
argue with that?
I must say that I am happy in a way to see all this debate over fire behavior
related topics. Just when I thought all eyes were permanently fixed upon
retention, pay, facilities, etc. I am encouraged by all of you who are keeping
at least one eye where it should be as this season of record setting dryness
(here in NorCal) spools up.
Take care........
DH
Ab, Thank you for your time and the work you do here. Like so many others I
truly appreciate it. (don’t know why I haven't written till now) Don’t quite
know how to go about posting on they said. If you think my words are worth
pasting over there please go ahead.
DH, thanks for bringing your viewpoint. Hope you'll write in again. Ab. |
| 5/8 | Ken,
Glad you and your people were able to get some face time with the RF.
Thanks for the update. So I ask you what's the end game here? What
comes out of the the pay group in your opinion? Your thoughts with
specifics as to pay would be appreciated.
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY |
| 5/8 | I.C.s (of every type):
As the season starts to ramp up, please remember to keep the safety of each and
every firefighter under your purview at the forefront of your mind.
IMTs:
Please remember that while you have a delegation of authority with the
benefiting agency, you have a responsibility to support the firefighters
assigned to your incident. Valid concerns of firefighters and incident personnel
getting the run-around for supplies, sleeping areas placed next to generators,
food that barely meets contractual standards (if at all), and many, many more
are way too common these days. I ask you to remember what it was like. If you
have never fought fire, ask someone who has or does. Spend some time on the line
with the crews, if at all possible. Take the opportunity to sit with
firefighters at chow, see how they are doing. ASK how they are doing. And then
LISTEN, and help any way you can. A suggestion box is never enough...
One more request:
Can we turn the ICS chart 180 degrees, so the firefighters are at the top of the
page, supported by all of the overhead, with the IC as the foundation? Just a
thought.
StumpShot |
| 5/8 | To all:
Senator Feinstein's office has informed me they have received the Forest
Service's response to the Senator's April 9th letter but have not yet completed
a full review of the information. Once they do they will make it available. Upon
our review of the Forest Service response, we will submit to the Senator and
others the field data we have been compiling over the last several weeks.
More to follow.
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA |
| 5/8 | Como Fire burning approximately 17 mi east of
Carson City, NV and approximately 7 mi south and east of Dayton, NV. Appx 100
acres and growing. Hotlist thread:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4145 |
| 5/8 | More on copyright and CPS or Fire Signature
Prediction Method:
TC2 comment: I believe “Solid Terrain Modeling” is also a
trade name and the “idea” is copyright protected.
Doug reply: What are you saying? So someone invents a new product and
you are worried about copyright? Buy it if you like it and don't buy if you
don't.
TC2 comment: And those things are VERY expensive.
Doug reply: About $500.00 per sq, ft.
TC2 comment: And not necessarily a new idea. Remember
the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably copyright protected too)
topographic maps? The ones I have are made by Hubbard
Scientific.
Doug reply: If that is what you like, keep buying them. Are they
copyright
protected too?
TC2 comment: By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the
fire stalled halfway up the slope on a south-west aspect in mid
day. Is that a signature?
Doug reply: Here's Solid Terrain models :
www.stm-usa.com/. I have
used the
plastic relief maps also, but check out the website above for all the
information.
The fire stalling half way up a south-west aspect is a signature. The cause of
the
fire slowing could have been a change in solar preheating of the fuel bed due to
smoke shading. Then you have 2 signatures on the same aspect. I have seen
this occur at times. What do you think may have caused the fire behavior
change? Maybe you could run FLAME or BEHAVE + to determine the cause?
I hope this helps you.
Doug |
| 5/8 | from the hotlist:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=18688
Abercrombie,
Assembling this discussion (CPS/FLAME) into a single thread is very helpful.
It's the kind of discussion this subject needs. I took Mr. Campbell's course
about six years ago, and have incorporated its sense and wisdom into my fire
work. I hope to persuade my superiors to offer it again to a new batch of
firefighters with my home unit soon. I have not yet had a chance to work through
in detail on the use of FLAME, though I read the materials offered by Mr. Bishop
and others enough to have a sense of it. I see real value in it as well,
especially in the way it addresses the geometric expansion of ROS during blowup.
This seems to me to fit well in general terms with the research Dr. Viejas has
reported from Portugal on eruptive fire behavior.
I understand, I think, the motives of those who inserted FLAME into S-290. They
wanted to give crew bosses some tools to take more direct charge of their own
understanding of current and expected fire behavior at the most critical
moments. From the discussions on this subject, it isn't clear to me yet what the
intended audience thinks of the plan. Is it something they asked for? If not,
then that may be the reason for much of the PUSH BACK. We don't like new stuff.
That's no reason not to offer it, though.
CPS is a valuable tool, but I think Mr. Campbell is absolutely correct to insist
that the entire course be offered as a stand-alone event, rather than
incorporated piecemeal into existing S courses. There is so much of value in it
that to dilute any part of it by blending with other objectives would be
detrimental.
I understand the attitudes of those who would wish it otherwise, but there is
enough of the observation/ experience-based knowledge of other researchers to
provide valuable knowledge to those taking S290 to fill the needs of students.
Perhaps a mistake made in the design of the new 290 was to put too much
information in the hands of students for one course. Perhaps it was to
misunderstand what level of information the students themselves were comfortable
understanding. The value to me in the making the progression from 190 through
490 over time was that I had time to assimilate one level before proceeding the
next one. Any curriculum that has fire modeling at its core should be directed
at those who are expecting it, hard as it is. FLAME itself has three layers of
detail, and maybe it would be better to expose students to those layers
separately, just as in fire behavior, S390 introduced us to the principle of
nomograms with the knowledge that we wouldn't have to actually think about them
much unless we were geeky enough to choose to do that.
Each of the processes that are being discussed here are visualization tools.
Attempts to help firefighters see in their mind's eye what will, may or is
likely to happen to their fire, and give them a fighting chance to act correctly
to mitigate all risks associated with their assignments. The intent of each
process is the clarity and precision with which that vision can be communicated
to subordinates. On the line, CPS has the advantage of expressing itself in a
language that firefighters can understand without having to think in complex
terms.
I do see great value in using FLAME as a more sensible field calculation system
when dealing with rapid changes in burning conditions. Probably at the Strike
Team or Div Sup level, though.
Thanks again for pulling all this together.
Ambrose |
| 5/8 | Lori: I emailed the folks in charge of the SJ
reunion and and asked them to
pass along the posts to Tom Decker. Hopefully, we'll get a story from
him that way. If not, I've tracked down a snail addy for him and will
send him a letter.
JerseyBoy |
| 5/8 | Copyrights and CPS: I believe “Solid Terrain
Modeling” is also a trade name and the “idea” is
copyright protected. And those things are VERY expensive. And not
necessarily a new idea. Remember the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably
copyright protected too) topographic maps? The ones I have are made
by Hubbard Scientific.
By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the fire stalled halfway up the
slope on a south-west aspect in mid day. Is that a signature?
TC2 |
| 5/8 | Firehorse, I loved your story and can definitely
remember the days of "free love". I was growing up in the Bay Area during that
time and a trip to Haight-Ashbury was a real treat. Those were some interesting
sights!
However, the show I was watching was filmed in the early 60's so the fire he
was talking about had to of occurred much earlier than 1970. I am hoping that
someone who knows Tom will see his name being bantered around and will get in
touch with him. I would love to hear the story from him first hand.
Gee, will all these X rated stories.... no wonder John loved being a wildland
firefighter! ;-)
Lori |
| 5/8 | To PB regarding his comments on 5/6 on PLI:
I do agree with you about professional liability insurance for wildland
firefighters and supervisory personnel. I don't know one way or another if
insurance companies are stalking firefighters, But your point about sovereign
immunity is well spoken and well taken. I am an EMT as well as a firefighter and
I HAVE to have it.
Regarding negligence, it should be mentioned that the definition of gross
negligence and what proofs are needed vary from state to state.
NOMAD |
| 5/8 | This came in: Highway dedicated to fallen
Esperanza firefighters Friday
www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080506/NEWS01/80506037
State Highway 243 will be officially dedicated as the Esperanza
Firefighters Memorial Highway in a special ceremony Friday.
State Assemblyman John J. Benoit will speak at the dedication, set for 10
a.m. at the Silent Valley RV Club in the small mountain community of Poppet
Flats. That's near where five U.S. Forest Service firefighters based in
Idyllwild were overrun by the Esperanza wildfire on Oct. 26, 2006. Four died
at the scene; the fifth five days later.
more at the link |
| 5/8 | A REMINDER TO RETIREES
DID YOU KNOW: You can pay your health insurance premiums on a tax-free basis? A
provision in the 2006 Pension Protection Act makes it possible for retired
"public safety officers" to request that up to $3000 from their annual pension
be deducted to pay medical insurance and long-term insurance. The IRS defines
public safety officers as firefighters, law enforcement officers, chaplains and
members of a rescue squad or ambulance crew.
The pension law applies to both CSRS & FERS. Retired federal public safety
officers whose pensions include a direct payment to a health insurance company
or long-term care insurance company may claim a tax exclusion on their federal
tax form and lower their federal income tax.
Below is the information from IRS Publication 721:Distributions Used To
Pay Insurance Premiums for Public Safety Officers
If you are an eligible retired public safety officer (law enforcement officer,
firefighter, chaplain, or member of a rescue squad or ambulance crew), you can
elect to exclude from income distributions made from an eligible retirement plan
that are used to pay the premiums for accident or health insurance or long-term
care insurance. The premiums can be for coverage for you, your spouse, or
dependents. The distribution must be made directly from the plan to the
insurance provider. You can exclude from income the smaller of the amount of the
insurance premiums or $3,000. You can only make this election for amounts that
would otherwise be included in your income. The amount excluded from your income
cannot be used to claim a medical expense deduction.
For this purpose, an eligible retirement plan is a governmental plan that is:
* A qualified trust,
* A section 403(a) plan,
* A section 403(b) annuity, or
* A section 457(b) plan.
The CSRS and FERS are considered eligible retirement plans.
How to report. If you make this election, reduce the otherwise taxable
amount of your annuity by the amount excluded. The taxable annuity shown on Form
CSA 1099R does not reflect this exclusion. Report your total distributions on
Form 1040, line 16a; Form 1040A, line 12a; or Form 1040NR, line 17a. Report the
taxable amount on Form 1040, line 16b; Form 1040A, line 12b; or Form 1040NR,
line 17b. Enter “PSO” next to the appropriate line on which you report the
taxable amount.
Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA |
| 5/8 | Lori,
I think the "X-Rated" fire you refer to was very near the town of Takilma back
in '70 and believe it was called the "Moonlight Dome" fire. It had a large
population of "Hippies" and they were definitely Free Spirits when it came to
dress code. If I remember right, Al Bersagleari (sp) was the "Fire Boss". He was
an ex CJ jumper working on the Illinois Valley RD. There were jumpers from CJ on
the fire by the time I got there, but at the time I did not know any of them. (I
rookied in '73). The IA was performed by the Takilmanites with various tools,
including pots and pans. Once the FS was on scene, the locals were pulled off
the line. One of the folks showed up nude and apparently got a bit close to the
flames and some of his hair was on fire. (Story from Al goes that it was not the
hair on his head either.) Al had the guy stand out in the open and put a bambie
bucket drop on him.
The District Ranger at that time was John Hoffman. He had been brought in to
help with relations between the Takilma folks and the Cave Junction folks. There
were several businesses in town that had signs in the windows "We do not
socialite Hippy business". Hoffman ordered up a pickup load of boxed chicken
dinners and drinks (including beer) and had it taken to the fire. I was in the
pickup that hauled the garbage back to the ranger station and can remember
seeing beer cans flying out the back every so often. (That was also back in the
days when it was deemed okay to stop at the local tavern on the way home from a
fire to "Rehydrate".)
I believe it was after this fire that some training was put into the
Takelmanites and a fire tool cache was established out there. This was before
fire shelters, nomex and plastic hardhats. (Remember orange fire shirts?)
I started with the FS in 1970 and this was the second or third fire I went to
after "Guard School". I remember thinking this firefighting could prove
interesting.
For those of you that recognize the terms "Fire Boss" & "Guard School", and
fought fire in Frisko's, orange fire shirts, and metal hardhats, you could be
REALLY OLD!! Bet you can even remember those old canvas FS backpacks with
leather straps you used to haul your gear in to project fires before the red
gearbags came along! And if you were a Crew Boss or overhead, you took your
paperwork with you in one of the canvas/leather strap briefcases? I still have
the orange fire shirt, metal hardhat, packpack and briefcase around here
somewhere.
(1970? That was along time ago!)
Firehorse |
| 5/8 | Thanks for your reply Doug.
You asked, "What is my personal roadblock?"
My roadblock is my complete understanding that your concepts should be taught at
the entry level, and expanded upon throughout ones career as experience levels
(and RPD slides) change.
For years, it has been obvious that we should be concentrating on fire behavior
training and experience for field going employees, rather than concentrating on
S-290, S-390, S-490, and S-590 programs that are highly dependent on
mathematical fire models that rarely can be recreated in a real world setting.
Yeah, it's easy to teach and grade a math class, but was it relevant to fire
behavior?
My personal opinion, as well as many others throughout the fire program, is that
we need a revamping or refocusing on fire behavior as a basic skill for wildland
firefighters..... NOT fire modeling.
We need to return to the days of Fire Behavior Specialists
(experts/practitioners of fire behavior prediction) instead of Fire Behavior
Analysts. Ab had an excellent point..... maybe there should be two different
paths?
Doug, I caught your reference to pages 10-11. I agree.
KCK |
| 5/8 | Thanks Happy Cow -- for some reason the Fam link I
had in my favorites
just wasn't working right any more.
Still Out There ... |
| 5/8 | Yesterday,
We had a Q&A with the new Regional Forester for Region 5 (Randy Moore) on our
local district.
I was impressed and pleased to see how in touch and educated on the issues he
was (although he did have some bunk info from his current and former subordinate
sub-staff). I was really impressed, especially when he fired back towards folks
who were venting out of frustration in describing their current situation.....
and he offered facts and hope. That was leadership.
While I didn't agree with some of the things he said, he was sincere. For the
first time in over ten years, we finally have a Regional Forester that can
communicate with the field and who is willing to engage and communicate with the
field on the issues affecting mission delivery.
The only advice I could offer is: 1) Embrace and engage the Federal Wildland
Fire Service Association (FWFSA). The FWFSA is an employee association with
members from GS-2 through GS-14; 2) Check and verify information provided by
your sub-staff before you present it as facts to the field; and 3) Kick your
Regional Fire Director is the a$$ to get re-engaged with the Region 5 Fire Board
of Directors and with the troops in the field. Good info and facts are presented
upwards to the LOT by the BOD Without an engaged Regional Fire Director, you are
missing alot of factual info from the fire program.
I was pleased to hear you read They Said... It is a great communication tool in
the wildland fire community. Thanks Ab(s).
/s/ Kenneth Kempter
Southern California Chapter Director
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association |
| 5/8 | From Firescribe: Good story about creative
problem solving, people stepping up,
and generosity of the fire family/ persistent retired law enforcement
officer. Photos of those who died.
Small (Colorado) fire company regroups after loss
www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_9187813
A bridge collapse last month during a devastating brush fire took the lives
of two firefighters and destroyed one of tiny Olney Springs' three firetrucks.
But since the tragedy, four men have joined the volunteer fire department in the
southeastern Colorado town of 300, nearly doubling the size of the unit.
And Fred McKnight, a volunteer firefighter from Ouray County, coaxed a
California fire department into donating a fire tanker to Olney Springs, which
has a fire budget of only about $4,000 a year.
|
| 5/8 | Re: Home Storage of Fire and Law Enforcement
Vehicles
It is time to put this discussion to bed and end the misinformation that keeps
re-circulating at the highest levels (WO and RO). The home storage of law
enforcement or fire vehicles IS NOT a taxable fringe benefit under IRS
regulations (below).
Feel free to save (cut and paste) the information for the next time the issue
comes up.
Rogue Rivers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26 C.F.R. § 1.274-5T - Internal Revenue Code.
(k) Exceptions for qualified nonpersonal use vehicles-(1) In general. The
substantiation requirements of section 274(d) and this section do not apply to
any qualified nonpersonal use vehicle (as defined in paragraph (k)(2) of this
section).
(2) Qualified nonpersonal use vehicle-(i) In general. For purposes of section
274(d) and this section, the term qualified nonpersonal use vehicle means any
vehicle which, by reason of its nature (i.e., design), is not likely to be used
more than a de minimis amount for personal purposes.
(ii) List of vehicles. Vehicles which are qualified nonpersonal use vehicles
include the following-
(A) Clearly marked police and fire vehicles (as defined and to the
extent provided in paragraph (k)(3) of this section),
(3) Clearly marked police or fire vehicles. A police or fire vehicle is a
vehicle, owned or leased by a governmental unit, or any agency or
instrumentality thereof, that is required to be used for commuting by a police
officer or fire fighter who, when not on a regular shift, is on call at all
times, provided that any personal use (other than commuting) of the vehicle
outside the limit of the police officer's arrest powers or the fire fighter's
obligation to respond to an emergency is prohibited by such governmental unit. A
police or fire vehicle is clearly marked if, through painted insignia or words,
it is readily apparent that the vehicle is a police or fire vehicle. A marking
on a license plate is not a clear marking for purposes of this paragraph (k). |
| 5/8 | Re: NFDRS Pocket Cards
http://fam.nwcg.gov/fam-web//pocketcards/southzon.htm
Why are the following areas missing?
Angeles National Forest
California Desert District (BLM)
San Bernardino National Forest
Yosemite National Park
All FWS Areas
All BIA Areas
All CAL FIRE Areas
All Contract County Areas
After the Thirtymile Fire abatement items and checklists, and the unilateral
stressed importance of pocket cards in keeping folks safer by the review
board, it would appear that there is a big swath of So. Zone that isn't safe
to fight fire in?
Noname |
| 5/7 | GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist update Ab,
In going through the documents on the GS-0401 issue, I discovered a mistake
in my earlier post. It appears that the commitment for agency funding to
purchase NWCG courses retroactively is limited to the Forest Service. The
April 25 USDA/USDOI Update states, "For the Forest Service - where
agreements are in place, agencies will pay for any past credits when they
are creditable toward GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist standards through
October 1, 2010." While we are pleased to have achieved this for the
employees we represent, we also feel all wildland firefighters should have
the same opportunity.
Also, to answer a question that's come up: In subsequent discussions with
agency leadership, we were told that this was intended to apply to
incumbents, not necessarily to folks whose next logical position would be a
GS-0401 position. We will continue to work for a legislative solution that
renders this point moot by restoring the standing of in-house courses, and
also internally with the agency to extend the same offer to non-incumbents
who have also been harmed by the mid-stream change in rules.
Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee |
| 5/7 | Mellie - No one figured out his secret - they
barely understood what he did! The closest one person
got was when he was asked if, when he got stuck in the tree, his pants came off.
I wonder if
Tom has ever seen that old clip. I must give kudos to the host of the show - he
named the
agency correctly and spoke of how brave the men and women who protect our
forests are!
Of course, we all know that, right?
Lori |
| 5/7 | Still Out There....
There is a website for pocketcards.
http://fam.nwcg.gov/fam-web/ Just click on the
left side, on pocketcards. I'm not sure where you are going, but I just checked
this
site and it is working. Hope this is what you're looking for.
Happy California Cow |
| 5/7 | Lori and Weren't those the days... I went to the
SJ
website and looked on their '07 Boise Reunion list.
Thomas Decker is listed on the R4 Idaho City '64 SJ crew (that crew
has dates from 1948-1968). Someone should email him and ask
him to write in and tell his story here and also tell the "I've Got a
Secret Story". Did anyone figure out his secret, Lori?
Mellie |
| 5/7 | Ab and All Can anyone recall the X-Rated fire
outside of Takilma OR in SW Oregon
(behind Greyback Mountain). That fire was on or butted up to one of the
oldest nudist back-to-the-earth communes and occurred in that time frame.
Don't remember a SJ Tom Decker on that fire, but could of been. The Cave
Junction SJs were there fighting fire with greatly heightened Situational
Awareness of more than just fire behavior!
I could add that fire to my "Just One More Time" list.
Weren't those the days...
Just One More Time thread. Ab. |
| 5/7 | I saw something last night on tv that made me laugh
and I thought it might strike you folks as funny also. Last night was one of my
"no sleep" nights and I decided to watch The Game Show Network and catch a
couple of the old series from the late 50's, early 60's. One of these was "I've
Got A Secret". A young man came out and introduced himself. He said that he
was attending a seminary and was also a smokejumper during the summer. First he
had to explain what a smokejumper was and believe me, those people were
clueless! His secret was that on his very first jump, he landed in the middle
of a nudist colony. Now, how many of you can top that story?!?
This young man's name was Tom Decker and he was from Emmett, Idaho. I was
wondering if anyone out there knows Tom or was on this smokejumping crew?
Lori
I heard that occurred in Oregon (Cave Junction SJs ? and that the people
there were fighting fire naked. Ouch?) Readers, any more info? Ab. |
| 5/7 | Replies to KCK from Doug Campbell:
KCK: Doug, You said, "CPS addresses important things that fire models do
not factor into the calculations".
You then went into describing things that SHOULD be taught in the
basic I and S courses.. but provided a caveat that they shouldn't be
taught "in any existing course".
Doug's Answer:
I am not criticizing the content of any S-course.
I was talking about having the entire course squished into an existing
course which
would cut a lot out of the presentation. I did not mean to suggest that
some of
the subject matter should not be included in S-courses because it has
already
happened. I just happen to think that cherry picking CPS training apart
is not
my preference. Linking human factors and observation/prediction skills
is
important in that without the right mission and vision, ethics, the
training does
not result in the same approach to firefighting.
KCK: Doug, you mentioned both Will and Drew..... how about trusting
the rest of of us?
Doug: I will trust all who have an interest in taking the CPS course and
doing the
work that it takes to be able to present the concepts
properly.
KCK: It is a real small world we travel in...... Some of us really
hate roadblocks and wrong turns when we are finally heading in the right direction.... Your
call my friend and mentor.
Doug: I do not want to be a roadblock. Some folks have assumed that since I
have a
copyright on the book that this is a block. If some want to make it a
roadblock
I guess they can, but I did not foresee my work constrained by
copyright.
I have offered to share the graphics with Germany for instance if they
would
take my stories out and replace them with theirs.
I have spent thousands of my funds to publish the book and workbook, as
has
Bill Teie,
for instance: his book has been purchased by many
departments.
While I was still employed by the FS I asked the WO to assist me in
creating this
course. I was asked to provide an overview for them to look over. I
spent
$1,500.00 on the printing of the paper. This resulted in no assistance
from
the agency and forced me to develop the course on my own and at my own
expense.
KCK: I'm really confused on your message.
Doug: What is your personal road block? How are you confused?
I hope my reply helps you understand what my opinion is and that I do not
want CPS
to contest another course of study that exists, nor do I wish that CPS
replace
any NWCG course. I am not in a contest with FLAME, BEHAVE, FARSITE or
any
other fire behavior course. If some agency wants the training, I can help
them
achieve it by either myself or others. The Forest Service already has
the course
material and does training, such as Redding Hotshots each year; as well
as in
Colorado Fire Camp, Los Angeles County Fire department and more.
I think that you made some assumptions beyond my meaning. Best regards
Doug Doug says anyone can call him to discuss any confusions.
From my perspective, perhaps the real question is: What is the purpose of the
S-190, 290 etc classes, which in my opinion point toward fire behavior modeling,
unless the current FLAME inclusion in 290 serves only a simulation training kind
of function?
Doug's class helps firefighters on the ground make observations and
predictions of the fire from their observations of fire on the ground where they
are. To large extent, historically, the other classes were devoid of training on
observational skills. Like Tim, I would ask trainers (and trainees) what their
more recent experience is. Perhaps there should be two paths with different
purposes since fire modeling and on-the-ground fire prediction are both
critically important. Just a thought. Ab. |
| 5/7 | Ran across an article relating to accident
investigations and Freedom of Information Act.
"The U.S. Court of Appeals in San Francisco (9th Cir.)
reached an unsettling conclusion last week when it
allowed the names of 23 federal employees to be
withheld after they were investigated following the
death of two U.S. Forest Service firefighters in July
2003."
rest of article
www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=6732
www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/. . .openelement
And There I Was |
| 5/7 | Doug,
You said, "CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into
the calculations".
You then went into describing things that SHOULD be taught in the basic I and S
courses.. but provided a caveat that they shouldn't be taught "in any existing
course".
- Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in
time and place.
- Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing,
a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.
- The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.
- The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions
of change from observed fire behavior.
- Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.
- The threshold of control determination that assist the
firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can
succeed tactically.
- Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire
situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are
utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior
over time, on the terrain.
- How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.
Doug, you mentioned both Will and Drew..... how about trusting the rest of of
us?
It is a real small world we travel in...... Some of us really hate roadblocks
and wrong turns when we are finally heading in the right direction.... Your call
my friend and mentor.
I'm really confused on your message.
KCK |
| 5/7 | I've been updating my fire links and have not been
able to get into the Pocket Cards
for fire behavior. I usually download the cards on my way out the door to an
incident.
Have these gone away for some reason or is there a computer glitch somewhere?
Thanks!
Still Out There ... |
| 5/7 | The argument of pay-- it is as old as overtime,
hazard pay and cost of living allowance (COLA). The Law changed in the federal
registrar in June 2002, if you are at all familiar with that, I certainly was
not until this new law came to light.
Bottom line: if you worked overtime in a COLA area after June 3, 2002 such as in
Alaska as an federal employee like a hotshot, smokejumper or fire specialist you
were under paid during record fire years as some employees worked hard or fires
for over a 1000 hours. We are talking in the range of $4,000-$8,000 per average
GS employee depending on GS scale and number of overtime ours worked.
The BLM agency discovered this enlightening fact during the spring of 2006. What
good news they were going to back pay with interest there employees. Great so we
thought, except the agency only saw fit to go back two years claiming that this
is a “FLSA” back pay issue and that two (2) years is applicable rather that
going six/four years to get those that were affected all monies that were
underpaid.
Interesting since when I am over paid they go back six (6) years. Whiskey Tango
Foxtrot WTF. This is wrong. The agency has made little effort informing current
and past employees of this grossly negligent error that has cost them the hard
working employees thousands of dollars $$$.
The National Weather Service has a union that represents them. They settled by
going back two years calculating pay and then multiplying it by two to cover the
four years that compensation was not provided.
I encourage fire personnel to inform others that may have been impacted by this
to contact senator Murkowski’s office and voice concern. Her office has been
most helpful and following this closely with OPM.
Step two to cover themselves they need to file a back pay claim with OPM.
There are a number of ways to do this like hire an attorney as I have. He is a
good one in Boise and has represented many firefighters in the past mainly
pertaining to retirement. He is competent with a high success rate of winning.
The other option is that on could file a claim themselves and there are
instructions as how to do so on the OPM web site. This should be done before the
statute of limitations is out which six years is coming June 3, 2008.
The calculation for monies owed is fairly simple:
1. Base (1.25) (Overtime hours worked) = monies should have been paid
2. Base (Overtime hours worked) = monies actually paid
Subtract line 2 from line 1 as to actual monies not paid to claim in your back
pay claim to OPM.
There has been some positive movement legally and getting a claim in before June
3 of this year would save your statute of limitations.
Pull out your LES and OT books and get this done ASAP. For the rest of you out
there save all records of pay such as SF-50’s, LES, OT books and position
descriptions.
Good luck and buck a little bit when your are shoved around.
AK GS Firefighter "Wildland" and proud change the job series |
| 5/6 | Quote from a post on They Said:
With regards to the first issue, I can say that the CPS was discussed as
a possible inclusion into the 290 curriculum. To the best of my
recollection, that consideration was short-lived due to
proprietary/copyright/financial issues.
The CPS training program is used by many of the people whom I have taught the
program to. Will Spyrison of the Los Angeles NF, River District and Andrew Smith
of LA County Fire Department, are two of many, with the graphics furnished to
them by myself. The only place that copyright issues are in play are the CPS
books and Workbooks. I would gladly offer special consideration to overcome
hesitation to adopt the course and material as I have done in Europe.
However, inclusion into any of the S-courses would not be my desire. CPS is
not contesting fire modeling and should not be mixed in with current course
material any more than its terms and concepts already have been. It is a small course that is based on old wisdom of successful
firefighters.
CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into the
calculations, such as:
Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in
time and place.
Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing,
a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.
The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.
The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions
of change from observed fire behavior.
Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.
The threshold of control determination that assist the
firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can
succeed tactically.
Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire
situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are
utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior
over time, on the terrain.
How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.
All of these subject matters are not part of fire modeling.
I therefore do not recommend, for what that may be worth, inclusion of CPS
training in any existing course.
Respectfully
Doug Campbell
P.S. See page 10 & 11 for viability of fire modeling.
FS Wildland Fire External R&D Peer Review, '07 |
| 5/6 | Lots of talk about liability insurance lately, this
is a subject I know a little about.
First if it helps you sleep at night, buy the insurance; it is about $300 per
year; if you are a Fed firefighter in a supervisory or manager role half the
cost will be reimbursed.
Secondly, there will never be any sort of immunity. You may believe you are
doing heroic work but blanket immunity could be a license to kill.
Police officers, Doctors and to a lesser degree Structural Firefighters have
endured enough incidents involving the loss of life and subsequent charges to
build a set of case law that defines negligence. In the wildland fire business
there is no such case law. Additionally, these other professions have boards
that assist in defining appropriate actions, again wildland fire does not have
such an entity.
We all live under the cloud of negligence every day, we just don't think about
it. If we are negligent, as defined by case law, then we may have to pay the
price.
The plea agreement in the 30 mile case, as well as the results of Cramer begin
to define the limits of negligence.
BTW if you buy the insurance, you have to have it when the incident occurs and
still have it when the trail is over. If you are operating within the scope of
your employment, you will be fine. The government has stepped in for employees
in cases when it was clear they could have stepped aside. For what it is worth,
I would find something else to worry about.
Hotcakes |
| 5/6 | Re: Forest Service Violating Delegated Examining
Unit (DEU) Authority
Someone briefly touched on the problem the other day when they asked about
'where have
the 0462 jobs gone'. Since the Forest Service decided to centralize at ASC and
outsource its
hiring to Avue Digital Services, it has consistently violated the terms of its
DEU Authority.
Fedwatcher
Public Law 107-296, Chief Human Capital Officers Act of 2002, codified in Title
5 U.S.C. 1103 (c);
Title 5 U.S.C. 1104, "Delegation of authority for personnel management";
Title 5 U.S.C. 1402, "Authority and functions of agency Chief Human Capital
Officers";
Title 5 U.S.C. 2301, "Merit system principles";
Title 5 U.S.C. 305, "Systematic agency review of operations";
Title 31 U.S.C. 1115, "Performance plans";
5 CFR Part 250, "Personnel management in agencies";
7 CFR Part 2.92, "Director, Office of Human Resources Management";
OMB Circular A-11 (2006), Sections 51.8, 85.1 and 85.3; and
Interagency Delegated Examining Agreement, DOA-1, dated August 29, 2000. |
| 5/6 | I too have concerns about the 30 mile incident. One
interesting comment that you made rings deep inside of me. It has to do with the
fire command requesting/ ordering additional resources and the orders where not
filled in a timely manor. From what I have observed in R6 over the past 10 or so
years is that, that response is more common than uncommon. So many times I have
heard through the grapevine (reliable one) that incidents requested various
materials/ equipment/ personnel and the orders where not processed in a timely
manor. I know I will step on some undeserving toes here but if you're one of
those dispatchers that work hard, then no offense is meant towards you. My
offense is meant for those that take time in processing orders.
I have one order here on my desk from last year. It states that the IC
requested "x piece of equipment" at 07:00 on a Saturday, my dispatch received
the order at 13:00 on Saturday, they, dispatch, where staffed this particular
Saturday until 23:40hrs, I d id not get called from dispatch until 11:07 on
Sunday. so, 1 hour to hit the road and a 7 hour drive later, we arrived at 20:00
hours. in the meantime property was damaged and destroyed. Could have lil 'ole
me stopped that outcome??? Who knows? Could have we possibly reduced or
prevented some of the damages? Well I am not sure, but we would have fought hard
to protect the properties! The IC lost over 24 hours of use of " x piece of
equipment". I would love for someone to look into ROSS to see what personnel and
equipment was available to support the 30 mile incident during IA or even
extended IA.
Many times I have gone by our dispatch, even on "heavy" days and they work at
the same pace.... I know, one has to be thorough , but come on guys! Yes I do
have more than one bone to pick with dispatch, but look AB I kept this note to
one topic:) And that being efficiency!
R6 fireguy
I'm fairly sure ROSS wasn't widely in use in 2001. As I understand it, the
kinks are still getting worked out of that program. Last year or year
before some dispatchers were still doing the work by hand and transferring info
into ROSS some time after the "crisis" when things slowed down. Ab. |
| 5/6 | Re: Recruitment and Retention of Wildland
Firefighters
In a effort to be competitive in the restaurant business, as well as being
competitive in the recruitment of entry level employees and retaining future
managers, In-N-Out
Burger has raised its entry level wage to $10/hr. In addition to a
competitive wage, In-N-Out offers its full-time employees:
1.) Flexible schedules to accommodate school and other activities.
2.) Paid vacations.
3.) Free meals.
4.) Comprehensive training.
5.) A 401k plan.
6.) A medical, dental, vision, life and travel insurance coverage package.
In-N-Out Burger is spreading throughout the Western United States due to a
very simple business model.... focus on the mission.... recruit and retain the
best employees... and provide the product to the consumers at the most cost
effective price.
Lobotomy |
| 5/6 | Did Ellreese have a Trainee Crew Boss working with
him that fateful day?
If you have ever taken someone out as your trainee you know it is a
balancing act. You want to stand back and let them try their wings, make
their own mistakes and learn what it feels like to make decisions affecting
others. The chain of command becomes muddled under those conditions. Was
there a moment when one of them said, "OK, I am the boss now." Or was it
more like a couple of cooks in the kitchen creating more chaos? Remember
this possibility during the current fire season if you have the opportunity
to train someone.
I also like the suggestion to "lawyer up" if you are questioned during an
investigation. Did Ellreese have a lawyer present when he made those
statements? I bet he was pretty disoriented and not thinking clearly. We
could all be charged with that after a long siege on the line, especially
with those conditions.
"White ash" |
| 5/6 | Does anyone know if the Angora Burn Over (peer)
report is ever going to
be released or is it just being brushed under the carpet? We are just about
a month shy from a year of the incident.
Signed,
Just Wondering??? |
| 5/6 | Misery Whip said,
"A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland
firefighters
to view future investigations, FLAs, and APAs as witch hunts. Even
self-reported
errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or
character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If
personal
liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open
and honest
testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the
well
dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator
of things to come."
Ellreese’s situation in the aftermath of that incident is bad enough; can you
imagine
what "they" would have subjected poor Lotzi to (with Ellreese as the precedent
you
refer to), right this moment, had he survived his crew?
I shudder at the thought.
(The Esperanza report made me weep. 'Nuff said.)
Peace... and be safe out there, everyone. Fire season has arrived already, and
it's
going to be a doozie.
--Short Stuff |
| 5/6 | GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist update Local Officials,
Please forward to fire personnel.
We have already made progress based on the NWCG courses front. Based on
Congressional pressure that was a direct result of our legislative work,
the IFPM deadline for conversion to GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist
positions has been pushed back to October of 2010. Further, the Forest
Service and DOI agencies have committed to reaching an agreement with a
university partner to obtain retroactive credit for incumbents (those in
401 positions or in 462 positions scheduled for conversion) and to pay the
necessary fees. It would not have happened without the tremendous response
from the field.
This is good progress, but it's not good enough. You may have heard that a
legislative remedy is "dead." I can assure you that NFFE was not sitting
at the table when that deal was struck and we have not signed off on it.
We will continue to work for an outright waiver. It makes no sense to use
limited training funds just to get documentation on a sheepskin instead of
an NWCG certificate. It makes no sense to leave those for whom a GS-0401
is their career path out in the cold. It makes no sense to have
second-class 401s -- those placed in their positions based on the old
qualification standards -- who cannot be promoted, lateraled, or even
detailed into other 401 positions. It makes no sense to diminish our
training capabilities by spending more money for training we can do better
in-house.
For more information, including our continuing efforts on your behalf, see
our Fire webpage at
www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/IFPM/Fire_Index.html.
Recent developments and our analysis of them are on page 3 of the
Congressional Briefing paper.
Before signing off, I have to thank the many employees who responded to our
request for information from the front lines in only three days. The
magnitude of this response is what convinced a key Congressional staffer
and his boss to put this issue on the table at the April 1 Forest Service
budget hearing. This is what solidarity is all about. If we speak the
truth, and speak it loudly, we can be heard. This is what your union is
all about. It provides the framework within which this can happen. But it
only happens if we all step up to the plate.
Take care all -- and be safe.
Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee |
| 5/6 | To Colorado Firefighter,
Gross negligence is voluntary disregard of the need to act in the
way that a reasonable firefighter would act. It is conduct that is
more than mere inadvertence, but it is still shy of being
intentionally malicious. If negligence is being careless, then gross
negligence is being REALLY careless. Think: careless to the point
that it is almost impossible to believe the person didn't know what
they were doing.
With all due respect to Nomad, I can't help but shake the feeling
that well-meaning firefighter types are being played by the insurance
industry on this one. I don't profess to give anyone advice in this
area, but . . . private liability insurance for government employees
acting within the scope of their employment? Really?
Sovereign immunity cuts a pretty wide swath through tort liability. My
hunch is that most incidents serious enough to exceed the scope of that
immunity will also void an insurance policy.
Just my two cents. Which are worth even less.
Take care,
PB |
| 5/6 | CA-CNF-Aguanga Rx lessons learned
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4055 |
| 5/6 |
Bit the Bullet…
I feel your pain…even from the State side of fire.
How many Oregon Department of Forestry fire personnel out there are
concerned about
firefighter liability? Do you feel comfortable with the AG's opinion on the
matter?
Can someone define "Gross Negligence" as it pertains to wildland
firefighting?
Gross negligence is the intentional failure to perform a manifest duty in
reckless disregard of the consequences as affecting the life or property of
another. So, gross negligence consists of conscious and voluntary act or
omission which is likely to result in grave injury when in face of clear and
present danger of which alleged tortfeasor is aware. Apply this definition to
anything you like as it pertains to wildland firefighting.
TD |
| 5/6 | RE: 0462 jobs,
Ab, I don't know why there have been a lot of DOI 0462 jobs open lately (most
that I've seen are 4- through 7-level positions too), but as someone who has
watched USAJobs very closely for about 4 years now, I am reasonably sure the the
DOI jobs are more obvious now because most of the USFS jobs are being flown on
the big continuously open announcements. Before this year I'd see several USFS
0462 jobs a day, ranging from real forestry tech jobs in TSI or pre-sale type
stuff to the district FMO level fire positions. Maybe that's the pattern you're
seeing, or not. It's the pattern I'm seeing though. As I said a while back, it's
difficult to know what positions are open in the Forest Service when you have to
rely on outreaches instead of individual announcements like the DOI is doing.
Cheers,
Young and Taking a Guess in Region 1 |
| 5/6 |
"E704 could have been returned and worked through
the night to pump out the spots. Additional engines and crews would have
eliminated the hazard of a sleeping beast"
"but I find it strange that the resources weren't punched out and continued
until the emergency was abated"
"Rather than focus on disengagement and other foolish concepts"
You sure
assume a lot. Were you up in WA, during this incident? Do you know the
availability of resources? I work for CalFire as well and we use the "foolish
tactic" of disengagement all the time. Your post reeks of ego driven bravado
which I would guess the administrators of this web site frown on and I am
certain will cause you serious problems on the line.
\
James |
| 5/6 | I just read the 5/5 post by CalFire re: 30 Mile. He
hit the nail on the head. The safest fire is the one put out during initial
attack. There is no substitute for rapid , aggressive I.A. I have read all the
reports, McLean's book, and walked the site. When I asked a member of the
investigation team why I.A. consisted of 3 people in a pickup, the reply was
"You're from Calif., aren't you?" (This was not a criticism; merely a statement
that the culture of rapid, overwhelming I.A. may not be the norm everywhere.)
If the Forest was short of engines, why wasn’t a local govt. (structure)
engine dispatched to supplement I.A.? With an unlimited water source next to the
road, the deck gun from such an engine could have taken much of the heat out of
this fire when still small.
I suspect there may not have been a history of this type of cooperation/
mutual aid between the Forest and Local Govt. If this was the case, have steps
been taken to remedy this attitude?
CalFire (Ret.); now local govt. Volunteer |
| 5/5 | If no one said "come off the rocks", why did the
one female firefighter who was on the rocks --and went down to the road
before the fire blew through-- decide to go down, thereby saving her own
life? Just wondering. Ab.
I believe that Rebecca Welch made the decision for herself. As I
understand it, she felt uncomfortable with the situation on the rock
slide and left the rock slide without prompting. Shortly thereafter, she
saved the two civilians by inviting them into her shelter. Correct me if
I am wrong, but she was one of the leading proponents of seeing the
report rewritten because of inaccuracies.
I have watched this website for a while and have not seen anyone ask
what I consider to be the most important question, Why wasn't the fire
put out immediately? Both the Entiat and NWR 6 crew supervisors /
Incident commanders ordered additional resources, but did not receive
them, or the resources came in piece meal, without support (i.e. Copters
that can't dip from the Chewich River, pumps and handtools that did not
work). This fire has always seemed strangely similar to the Storm King
Mtn tragedy, not because of the terrain and fuels, but because of the
complete lack of engagement of the senior leadership and lack of support
from the organization.
Resources could have been released from the Libby South Fire to choke
the 30 Mile Fire, before! the sun rose and the fire intensity increased
exponentially. E704 could have been returned and worked through the
night to pump out the spots. Additional engines and crews would have
eliminated the hazard of a sleeping beast at the foot of steep slopes in
thick fuel by putting it out.
Perhaps it is because I am from California; we have a large number of
resources available, and use them, but I find it strange that the
resources weren't punched out and continued until the emergency was
abated. I would also like folks to consider the old adage that my dad
taught me when I was young, "Playing with fire is dangerous." Fighting
fire is an emergency and should be treated as an emergency. Hitting it
hard will keep it small, and when the burning conditions are easy,
fighting the fire aggressively will be easier in the long run.
Rather than focus on disengagement and other foolish concepts, I would
encourage people to stay engaged, and put the fire out. Being engaged is
not inherently unsafe; it eliminates the hazard. Being engaged means
taking the most advantageous approach to firefighting, and eliminating
the hazard.
Before anyone asks, I do work for Cal Fire.
Be Safe and PUT IT OUT! |
| 5/5 | Dear Ab,
When I read the news release concerning the "deal" Ellreese received,
I'm afraid to say that I was not at all surprised. History has
demonstrated time and again that there will ALWAYS be blame assigned to
SOMEONE. Blame doesn't adhere to agencies or chains of command and
supervision... it is always an individual who must be impaled on the tip
of the spear. A clear instance of scapegoating, or, picking the low
hanging fruit on the tree. Let me summarize for you briefly a couple of
historical precedents:
Pearl Harbor: The passage of time and intense research has revealed that
there was plenty of culpability up the chain of command, right up to
FDR. But it was the commander, Admiral Husband Kimmel who got sliced and
diced because: (a) lots of asses to cover back at the Navy Dept., State
Department, and the White House and (b) Public opinion wanted SOME ONE
not something to blame.
The sinking of the USS Indianapolis in July of 1945: This sinking was so
horrible (the survivors of the torpedoing were literally left to die for
nine days in the water and many were attacked and eaten by
sharks-because nobody back at Pearl bothered to check why the "Indy" was
overdue) that the Navy left no stone unturned in their efforts to skewer
the Captain, who survived the sinking. A new low in the fine art of the
blame game occurred when Navy JAG called as a key witness the JAP SUB
COMMANDER WHO SUNK THE "INDY" to testify that the ship was not on a
zig-zag pattern at the time of the sinking. (Though finally absolved a
number of years later, the captain committed suicide).
The lesson is clear, I think. If the poop hits the fan and you are on
deck at the time, get lawyered up fast. I'm afraid Liability insurance
is a must.
Here's an answer to "Confused Colorado Firefighter's" question as to a
definition of "gross negligence:"
For an accusation of negligence to hold up in court, four specific
elements must be present:
Duty, Breach of Duty, Damages, Causation.
Thus, four questions must be answered:
(1). Did Ellreese have a duty and what, specifically was it?
(2). Was there a demonstrable series of actions on the part of Ellreese
that constituted a breach
of his legal duty to those under his command?
(3). What damages were incurred as a result of Ellreese's alleged breach
of duty?
(4). This is the tough one: It must be proven that the actions, or lack
thereof, by Ellreese actually
caused the damages being alleged.
Gross Negligence is basically negligence on steroids, to put it simply.
I hope this helps.
Nomad |
| 5/5 | I'm not sure which Ab keeps posting the rage about
DOI agencies and 0462 jobs...Stop...remove foot from mouth.
DOI and for that matter any federal agency can use 0462 for primary
firefighter positions. In fact, many, many DOI firefighters are under
this series and have been for decades. The distinction is the fuel type
in the area. Meaning mostly forest = 0462; mostly range = 0455. BLM
hires many jobs as 0455 or 0462; NPS and USFWS hire mostly 0462. By no
means is 0462 a "USFS Fire Series."
LookIt's the one and only Ab, me. I'm commenting on a pattern that
I have never seen in the jobs posted on the 0462 series, ie almost the
entire first page of 0462 all being non FS jobs. Thanks for the
clarification. I'd still like to know why the pattern exists. Ab. |
| 5/5 | Misery Whip.
To answer your question
do the more outraged families realize that Ellreese going to jail
may have a
negative impact on fire fighter safety?
No they don't. They see it as forcing a bunch of cowboys (not my
term, I have
seen one of the families or Cantwell use that term) to behave more
responsibly
expecting it might save some other parent from suffering the way they
are. Remember,
their fire experience is limited to Thirty Mile and various sources of
training materials.
If you look at fire fighting training material and the 10 and 18 with no
fire experience,
fire suppression looks fairly black and white. The investigation report
was pretty
black and white also. So in their minds, they can see no reason why
Ellreese made
the decisions that he made
Unfortunately, I believe that Ellreese is also going to have to pay for
mistakes that
the Agency made in the investigation and with how it was presented to
the families.
Remember that PL 107 is an outgrowth from comments made about their
loved
ones who died. PL 107 would not be around if the investigation would
have at least
made an attempt cover the two potential scenarios: about if Ellreese did
or didn't say
"come off the rocks". (Rather than conducting the investigation in
complete secrecy,
if they had checked their conclusions or at least the controversial ones
with the crew
members before going public with the report, imagine where we would be
now.)
Hopefully the Agency will learn from its mistakes.
Big Smooth
If no one said "come off the rocks", why did the one female
firefighter who was on the rocks --and went down to the road before the
fire blew through-- decide to go down, thereby saving her own life? Just
wondering. Ab. |
| 5/5 | Bit the Bullet…
I feel your pain…even from the State side of fire.
How many Oregon Department of Forestry fire personnel out there are
concerned about
firefighter liability? Do you feel comfortable with the AG's opinion on
the matter?
Can someone define "Gross Negligence" as it pertains to wildland
firefighting?
Confused State fire fighter |
| 5/5 | The
Jobs
page Wildland Firefighter
Series 0462
(Forestry Technician) &
Series 0455
(Range Technician) &
Series 0401
(Biologist) have been updated.
Again, let me ask why so many of the Series 0462 (forestry techs)
are BLM jobs, which have largely been 0455 (range techs)? Same with 0401
(biologists); now that makes a bit more sense since DOI agencies had
lead on that whole fiasco following Storm King and most of those that
were FS offerings were frozen.
Take a look at the jobs pages. "Forestry techs" are being hired by
BIA, BLM, NPS, FWS? This used to be a Forest Service firefighting job
series at least in higher numbers than now. What's up? Or did DOI just
figure out how to get positioned on the search engines? Or has the FS
shot itself in the foot regarding the firefighting job market...
Locally, in the past few months I've had 2 excellent young people ask
why it's so hard to find FS firefighting jobs...
Ab. |
| 5/5 |
Confused I think you answered your own question when you say your FMO and
friends back HOME.
Good luck and stay safe.
smokeater |
| 5/5 |
To the R-3 BLM Engineer,
It is pretty much a "No-Brainer". Take the R-3 offer!! You are obviously not
getting the support of your local management and in my opinion, (Amid the
current atmosphere in the wildland fire service today), you have attempted to do
right by your seasonals with little to no support from those above you. Not sure
about the BLM organization chart, but where is your AFMO and FMO in all this?
You should not base your decision on the national review at the end of the
month. If you think a good review will change managements mind, I believe you
will be sadly mistaken. It is interesting that with a national review coming up
there is not more support from your management folks. I always felt a bad review
was more a reflection on management (Lack of training and direction) than on the
troops on the ground!
You mention "Perks". Those are usually short lived and can easily be taken away
at managements whim. Sounds like you have an FMO back there you respect, and you
mentioned friends. As you get older, you realize the true importance of friends.
(Just ask Ellreese)
TAKE THE JOB!!!
Firehorse |
| 5/5 |
Confused and don’t know what to do: I can hear the frustration in your post.
Is it that management is setting you up for failure or are they actually setting
you up for success? A lot depends on management styles. There are many different
management styles.
Could management actually be allowing you to make decisions and be trying to
mold you into that leadership role or hanging you out to dry? There are many
supervisors that “micro manage” and many that are just too “lackadaisical”.
Unfortunately it is difficult to find the perfect mix. I have found that the
best leaders just don’t require much supervision. This is not to be confused
with management and that is where the support needs to come from. Moving from
the firefighter ranks to the Engine Captain ranks is a big step. I think there
are too many reasons to determine why task books may or may not be certified at
a certain time (fire type, quality of assignment, assignment length and
location, policy etc). The role of a GS-7 Engineer and GS-8 Captain on a Type
III engine is huge. Back when Region 5 upgraded these positions it was
classified that these are very complex positions and required highly qualified
and highly experienced people and would require minimal supervision. It might be
that you are acting in the position as it was intended.
In this time of all the retention and recruitment problems I have to ask, is
training and the allowance of additional training assignments being provided?
There are many supervisors that just won’t allow people take assignments and
this is hurting our organizations.
If it is information that you need don’t hesitate to use this forum.
Give it time…. Task books are very subjective and every manager wants to be
assured that when they sign that final evaluator’s block, that you are ready to
take everything that is dealt.
Happy Trails |
| 5/4 |
Confused and don't know what to do. I transferred to the BLM out here (Cali)
last year and started at the same time with my captain, who has since left and
gone off to bigger and better things, (which I don't blame him for). His leaving
has made me acting supervisor of my crew. Since mid-March, we have been without
a captain which has placed our engine out of service. My seasonals are now on,
and I'm in the process of getting them their fire refresher, and 130/190, and
doing other stuff in the process. I have received little or no help from
management. There's been a lack of information sent to me in a timely manner.
Right now I'm doing my best, with thanks to my crew from R-3 who taught me well.
But right now, I have to make a decision.
I have been offered to lateral back home to R-3 BLM. I would like to stay in
Cali, I've gotten used to the area, we have a new engine, I like being on a T-3,
along with the other perks that I can't do back in R-3. But when your engine is
out of service because you have no captain, and you have your engine boss/ crew
boss task book completed and it just needs the final signature, you turn it in,
only for it to be given back to you and told that you have not been in Cali long
enough, and to wait until fall for a signature, that just brings down morale and
makes one think. So for now, I will sign the R3 offer and fax it back. I still
have a lot to do to get my folks prepared and get our ducks in a row, with our
national review coming up at the end of the month. Then will see what comes
after the review, if management well finally see that I'm not some dummy from
R-3. If nothing changes after the review, then I will have no choice but to
return to R-3.
So do I leave, and leave this crew without both an engineer and captain, or do I
stay and let down my FMO and friends back home?
I am not sure at this point, only time well tell at the end of the month. |
| 5/4 |
I have a sick feeling in my gut, because as a ICT4(T), it was recommended
to me that I purchase personal liability insurance. This recommendation came
from levels above, and it boiled down to trusting the agency to back our play.
I feel that I am very safe and observant in the duties that I perform, but the
fact
of the matter is we can't control mother nature, or all people around us at all
times. I sometimes feel that I could take the fall for the incorrect actions of
others,
and I know that if lawsuits followed, I would be left high and dry. It is going
to
be a long season, and I pray that all stays safe, and that at the end we all
come
home safe.
bit the bullet |
| 5/4 |
I guess I'm kind of curious on what these new
committees mean by short term
fixes to our facilities.
Why do we need ANOTHER committee to tell the region
and the agency what
we've been telling them for years,
OUR FACILITIES ARE DETERIORATING
AND THERE IS NO SHORT
TERM FIX. I'm so tired of new committees
looking at
the same old issues and nothing ever happening. If we
are to maintain
a "budget neutral" fix then are we
really going to see any changes or is this just
another resume builder for some of our out of touch
higher ups. You know we
could flood the inboxes of the
groups and let them know what we think but are
they
going to listen is the real question.
ME
|
| 5/4 |
Gizmo-
The information you provided about fire behavior modeling was excellent… thanks.
I just want to clear up the information about the European gentleman currently involved
in further development of a model. His name is Dr. Domingos Xavier Viegas, a Professor
at the University of Coimbra in Portugal. Here is a link to a presentation he made about
“Eruptive Fire Behaviour in Past Fatal Accidents” at the Safety Summit in Missoula in
2005.
www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Viegas%20et%20al.pdf
Bill Gabbert |
| 5/4 |
Firefighters and Firefighter Managers:
Have you seen the letter below? Have you been asked for comments on the facilities you work at
or manage? Have you been allowed to be a part of the discussion and provide input on this?
This is your Retention Facilities Work Group..... at work.
Demand to be heard! I would suggest you flood some inboxes about right now on your issues If you
think these Work Groups will be working for us for the next 10 years, your wrong. We would be
lucky if they're still in place 10 weeks from now.
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY
While you're at it, take some photos/videos of the "facilities"
and send them in if you like. Condition of facilities is one issue.
There's no way to demonstrate the lack of facilities, but this lack is
one of the big issues with retention and recruitment. Ab.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: April 29, 2008
Subject: Fire Facilities
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors
The Region has recently stood up four work groups to address key areas impacting the ability to perform our fire mission. These four groups include Pay and Retention, Mission, Workplace, and Facilities. With regard to the Facilities Work Group, headed by Ed Cole, they are currently developing options leading to an overall strategy to address Region 5 Fire Facility (including quarters) deficiencies, which impact the fire mission, and result in a negative impact on retention.
To most effectively and expeditiously identify needs and implement remedies in line with our projected needs, their efforts have been split into two parallel approaches; short-term, and long-term issues. The “short-term” issues are those which have a current, direct impact on the safety of personnel and/or are having a distinct negative impact on the ability to perform the current Fire Support mission. The long-term issues shall address those issues that are of strategic nature in terms of identifying the type, number, and location of fire support assets necessary, to successfully execute both the current, and projected regional fire support mission.
Addressing the short-term issues, they will commence by gathering data which accurately identifies short-term issues across the region, and develop a means to prioritize and rectify as soon as possible. To gather the short-term data, I am tasking each Forest Supervisor to ensure input in the following categories is provided in enclosure (1), as gathered from the appropriate members of your staff. These short term issues, as described above, should be limited in scope, with the ability to be rectified quickly with the appropriate resources, resulting in an immediate visible or quantifiable difference. Provide your input within two weeks directly to Ed Cole, or no later than May 12, 2008.
1. Health & Safety, i.e. FAD asbestos, water contamination, vermin/vector control,
electrical hazards, heating system failures, lack of weatherproof integrity, food
preparation & storage, etc.
2. Mission, i.e. communication system failures/inadequacies (phones, computers),
vehicle protection, exercise facilities, power generation, etc.
The input should consist of 3 prioritized items per category, include cost estimates utilizing “Means”, and draw upon data from recent safety inspections and INFRA, as well as staff input.
This information will then be categorized into common groupings. The group will also be looking at all available resources in order to rectify the short-term issues as quickly as possible. Future correspondence will outline the details regarding the approach and proposed remedies regarding the “long term” issues.
/s/ James M. Peņa
JAMES M. PEŅA
Deputy Regional Forester
Enclosure: (1) Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues
cc: Edward Cole
Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues
Health & Safety
1.)
2.)
3.)
Mission
1.)
2.)
3.)
Q1: Do you have assigned facility site managers at each of the fire facilities to address day-to-day facility and housekeeping needs?
Yes____ No____
Comments:
Q2: Do you have a published Forest policy addressing housekeeping at these facilities, and to hold personnel accountable in the event of facility damage beyond routine wear and tear?
Yes____ No____
Comments: |
| 5/4 |
Casey-
Thank you for your steadfast and resolute support for the firefighters around
the country.
Like the climb up a steep ridge, you do it one foot at a time.
Your words about families and feelings really hit home. It is
difficult to find meaning in
these tragic losses other then hurt and pain. Healing does not come in
courtroom. Like
you, I wish peace for each member of the families who lost a loved one.
Making the
journey to Idaho might be the first step in that process.
Wildman |
| 5/4 |
From the thread Converting Chains per Hour to Acres per Hour and modelling:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?p=18436#post18436
One of the biggest problems with mathematical modeling of fire behavior is
the use of "constants" in an ever evolving equation.
Recently, two researchers (one from Europe and one from the US) began studying
the variables that were left out of the Rothermel 1972 equation because they
were too hard to quantify at the time.
From those two initial researchers, nearly two dozen scientists and
practitioners of fire behavior world-wide have started to study (and try to
explain) "momentum" or "exponential growth" to describe
blow-up (eruptive growth) fire behavior.
While it may seem trivial, chains per hour vs. acres per hour cannot be properly
calculated or discussed without fully announcing that there are known errors in
every model, table, or job aid that folks are often relying upon for safety and
decision making.
Case in point: Often, the Rothermel adapted equations used in Behave (et al)
often over predict rates of spread in NFFL fuel model 4. Conversely, in
several well documented tragedy fires (Europe, US, and Australia), the Rothermel
model under predicted rates of spread more than ten fold.
Dr. D.X. Villegas (Europe) and Dr. Jo Ann Fites (US)... as well as countless
other scientists and fire behavior practitioners are working on the problem. One
of the first HSU capstone projects was able to recreate the observed rate of
spread and acreage gain on a past fire (Louisiana, CA-BDF, 2002) and apply the
research of Dr. Villegas and Dr. Fites in a real world, predictive services
setting for wildland firefighter safety. It is just a baby step forward.......
but if Forestry Technicians can grasp the concept and do the math.... go figure.
It isn't rocket science..... it's Fire Science.
We can do better in keeping our folks safer.
Gizmo |
| 5/4 |
Dear Ab,
Reading most of the comments about FLAME and CPS started me thinking of how
to describe the differences between the two concepts. Most of the fire
behavior models do not address the human factors that are responsible for
distractions and loss of situational awareness. CPS begins with the ethics
of a successful firefighter. This information comes from Hotshot crew
leaders who have excellent safety records. What is their attitude and what
are the ethics that guide them?
Knowing fire modeling or other methods of predicting fire behavior are not going
to prevent fire behavior related accidents. Attitude and an ethical
approach to suppression action are needed. Some have it and some don't and
have paid a price for the lack of proper ethics. It shouldn't be separated
from fire behavior training.
Realizing that a good mission and vision statement was necessary for successful
long-term firefighting I included it into the CPS class.
Another difference is in the reliability of fire behavior models to make
predictions that are relevant to the tactical actions on wildland fires. During
my years as an Operations Section Chief and I.C. on initial attacks and large
fires, calculating rate of spread and flame length were not useful to
tacticians. What is needed are certain perimeter lines where the fire behavior,
fuel density and steepness of slope are within the threshold of control for the
resources available. Areas where there are reasonable expectations of
successful suppression are identified and directly affect the tactical plan.
The best guides that I have found over the years are the actual fire behavior
signatures that are the ground truth. Understanding the cause of
variations in fire behavior is the key to predicting where these causes will
host replications of the variations in fire behavior (signatures).
CPS is designed for working firefighters based on experience in the field.
It is a logical system focusing on what is useful and necessary to be a safer
fire fighter.
The course outline is included here to help understand what CPS is all about.
Wildland Fire Signature Prediction Methods
8 to16 hour course
INSTRUCTOR OBJECTIVES:
To present the elements of wildland fire experience
A segment of human factors, ethics and mission and vision of a firefighter.
How to use Logic, Information and Language on the fireground.
How to gain successful outcomes on wildland fires.
STUDENT OBJECTIVES:
Students will pass the pre-test with less than 6 incorrect answers.
Students will participate in classroom discussions.
OUTLINE:
Pre-class study guide.
· Mission, Vision and the ethics of a successful
firefighter, the human factors segment.
· How fuels are really dried, how fast and how
much.
· How to describe a wildland fire and know if it
is getting worse or easier.
· Fire modeling and logic model uses
· What to do when meeting a wildland fire
· Scientific concepts, tools and applications
· The alignment of forces concept.
· Fire situation exercises using solid terrain
models.
· Course summary
· Final test
· Course evaluation
Submitted by
Doug Campbell
Thanks, Doug. I knew your program was considering the human factors
aspects of firefighter attitude and ethics years ago. Visionary. Ab. |
| 5/3 |
Misery Whip:
Well said. There is still a great deal of work to do on the firefighter liability issue. The Agencies will tout the expansion of PLI reimbursement as a major accomplishment but as we start the season, the responsibility of who actually will be covered has been handed over to
Albuquerque, the hub of dysfunction. I am personally concerned that with frequent promotions due to losses of FEOs, captains, B/Cs, division chiefs and others, there will be some who are thrust into a command decision-making situation this season without knowing whether they are eligible for such reimbursement.
Additionally the reimbursement is apparently going to come from WFPR funds so how many preparedness resources will that mean are not in the field as they should be?
The reality is that we must continue to see that legislation that ultimately led to PL 107-203 is either clarified or amended to ensure a nexus does not exist between investigation and prosecution. Part of our legislative proposal is to amend PL 107-203 to require the USDA OIG to report to Congress precisely what policies/procedures are in place to train its investigators to be proficient and how they secure the expertise needed to conduct fatality fires as compared to cattle rustling. It is clear from the actions of OIG Investigator Parker in Thirty Mile and his "sniffing around" Esperanza that there simply aren't any standards for creating such an investigatory body as authorized by the law.
I do believe that, had the case gone to trial, there would have been overwhelming evidence & testimony to demonstrate that no firefighter goes to work on any given day, or responds to any given incident with the expectation or desire to harm themselves or their crew and that while firefighting is inherently dangerous and often times requires split-second decision making, the wildland fire landscape and the dynamics of such fires that are not confined to structures amplifies these dangers even more.
I truly don't want to inflame feelings about this issue but I think a realistic question for those family members that still want "blood" for the loss of their loved ones is: if your son or daughter was a firefighter for NYC on 9-11-01 and was one of the 343 who perished on that day inside the towers, would you seek prosecution and support manslaughter charges against the NYC fire department chief officers who sent crews into those towers even after they had been struck by large frame aircraft? Or, if your son or daughter were in Iraq and their squad leader made a decision to turn down a road which contained a buried bomb and killed your loved one, would you support prosecution and manslaughter charges against the squad boss for the decision he or she made?
I am of the firm belief that if any investigatory body had five years to look at the firefighting careers of all of us in the business, they could find something on some incident that made us look negligent. I am convinced everyone in this business, whether they be wildland firefighters or structural firefighters, go to work to do the best they can in stunningly difficult conditions and circumstances. While we all want to learn from each incident to try and reach the ultimate, yet perhaps unrealistic goal of no more firefighter
fatalities, the firefighting community must band together when those, whose motives are political or questionable at best, seek to criminalize the best efforts of our brothers & sisters while engaged in some of the most dangerous work and under some of the most horrific circumstances anyone can face.
I can only hope that those families who may remain bitter about the deal cut for
Ellreese reach out to Vicki Minor and the Foundation as well as the many families who come together each year at the Foundation for Family Day, this year happening the weekend of May 16th. There, the families of those lost in wildfires can share their stories and feelings and begin the healing process by realizing that so many other moms, dads, siblings and children have chosen to focus their feelings in positive ways.
For children of those lost, the event is especially important and Vicki & her staff do an incredible job of harnessing the feelings of all into positive messages and actions.
Casey |
| 5/3 |
All,
Although I was pleased to hear that prosecutors have dropped all felony charges against Ellreese in return for guilty pleas on two federal misdemeanor counts, I don’t think that celebrations or congratulations are appropriate. As I understand it, Ellreese could still face time in jail under this agreement.
A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland firefighters to view future investigations, FLAs, and
APAs as witch hunts. Even self-reported errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If personal liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open and honest testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the well dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator of things to come.
James Reason says that in order to have a true safety culture in a large organization like the USFS, you must first foster a “reporting culture” in which people feel empowered to openly share information, which may include admissions of personal error, for the greater good of the organization. But before you can have a reporting culture, you must first establish a “just culture” in which people can feel confident that recorded statements about what they saw and did on the fireline will not be unfairly used against them.
All wildland firefighters are the losers in this case. We lose the ability to have open discourse about accidents and near misses, which diminishes our ability to learn and share lessons from these incidents, which makes all of us less safe.
In the years since Thirtymile, I have participated in dozens of wildland fire safety discussions in which someone has referenced some aspect of the Thirtymile Fire to illustrate a particular point. I would venture to say that it is likely that there are firefighters alive today because lessons they learned from the Thirtymile Fire helped keep them out of harm’s way.
It makes me sad to see that some of the Thirtymile families are still calling for Ellreese’s punishment. I wonder if they understand that if Ellreese goes to jail, more firefighters will quit sharing important lessons, the kind of lessons that could save future firefighters from experiencing what their children faced at Thirtymile.
I wonder too if the families realize how much the wildland fire community reveres the memories of their children, our fallen comrades. We also feel cheated because these fine young people didn’t get a chance to accomplish all of the great things we know they were capable of doing. Jessica, Devin, Tom, and Karen will remain alive in our memories for as long as firefighters fight fire. That lonely rockslide on the Chewuch River has become hallowed ground for us.
Misery Whip |
| 5/3 |
Warhog Pin (Sting, Lobotomy, Warthog's Posts)
That's a picture of a Warthog Pin, alright. There's been 3 'Keepers of
the Pins' over the years. The 'Keepers' give out the pins at fires when
they work with folks who perform according to 'Warthog principles': SH$T
Principle (as described in the earlier post), etc.......... Every
once and awhile there will be a reunion for all Warthogs to come together and
party (I didnt say 'celebrate'); most of these lately have been retirement gigs.
The flipside of the pin has your "official Warthog Number": The lower
the number the longer you've been a "HOG"....... This is all stuff
I've heard as I've never really met one of the Warthogs!
The Rambob |
| 5/3 |
Ab,
The coin (photo) that Sting sent in looks just like a "challenge coin" that was
used
by military units for years.... and in the Hotshot Community following the
Vietnam
War. It has become a pretty common challenge item in the Hotshot world.
Recently, the "challenge coin" has had a resurgence in unit pride and
significance,
past and present.
Those of you that have a coin.... You know when to drop it.
Lobotomy |
| 5/2 |
Catching up on some photos: On the
Engines 20 photo page and
Handcrews 23 photo page:
Southern Fire 1 & 2: Photos from the Southern Fire,
March 22-24, 2008. This was west of Phoenix near the City of Avondale, burning
in the Gila River bottom. I believe the Phoenix Fire automatic aid system worked
this as a second alarm brush on the 22nd, then turned it over to BLM and Arizona
State Forestry. Units from the Central Arizona Wildland Response Team, other
Arizona FDs, BLM, and Arizona Dept. of Corrections hand crews worked it on the
23 and 24th, contained at 200 acres. Photos compliments of Todd F. (0408)
AZ E-362: Photo of a crewmember from Arizona State Engine 362 on the
Middle Fork Complex, Boise NF. August 2007. Photo compliments of AZfirefighter
(TF0408) |
| 5/2 |
GISgirl,
Thanks for the link to the
map instructor guide! I am making the purchase!
The Mandarin and Navel analogy is fantastic! I am gonna steal that one from you!
(you will get credit!)
While your end deals with the technical, geek "stuff" ... I find that the rest
of us out there in the field deal on a day to day basis with more of the
operational aspect of maps, gps units and lat longs, etc... In other word we
don't always know how stuff works, just if we push the right buttons, stuff
happens.
With that in mind, I have attached a great briefing / teaching paper written by
the USFS R5 Regional Aviation Safety Officer a few years back regarding
Latitude/Longitude formats and reporting... (112 K pdf file) We use
it when we instruct folks in which format and why in their handheld gps units.
Hopefully one day all will have this stuff down to avoid confusion.....
Peace,
yactak |
| 5/2 |
Krassel Crash article from JR:
www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005120535
Report renews questions about helicopter crash
Accident claimed the life of former valley resident, pilot Quin R. Stone
By JASON KAUFFMAN
Express Staff Writer
A report released in March calls into question a prior conclusion citing
pilot error as the cause of a August 2006 helicopter crash that claimed the
life of a former Hulen Meadows man.
Quin R. Stone, 42, most recently of Emmett, was the pilot of the Eurocopter
A Star 350 B-3 helicopter that went down Aug. 13, 2006, in the Payette
National Forest during a fire-fighting mission. Stone, who grew up in the
Hulen Meadows subdivision north of Ketchum, was killed along with
firefighters Lillian Patten, 34, of Olympia, Wash.; Michael Gene Lewis, 37,
of Cascade; and Monica Lee Zajanc, 27, of Boise.
An earlier report, questioned by Stone's friends and family, was released in
June 2007 by the National Transportation Safety Board and claimed that
intentional low-altitude flight was the cause of the helicopter crash that
killed the crew.
The accident occurred about 18 miles west of the remote hamlet of Yellow
Pine. Stone was flying the firefighters to the Krassel Guard Station in
support of fire-fighting activities.
But in the new report released by David Rupert of R.J. Waldron & Co., a
company based in British Columbia that investigates aircraft accidents,
investigators claim the accident was actually caused by the loss of 5-gallon
water containers and refuse from the right side of the helicopter's cargo
basket. [more of this interesting article at the link]
|
| 5/2 |
Readers, yesterday we got an email from Aaron Long of Extreme Makeover --
Home Edition. Here's what he said: My name is Aaron Long and I am writing
from ABC's Extreme
Makeover: Home Edition. We are hoping to build a home for a
heroic firefighter in our upcoming season. I have attached a flyer
that includes the appropriate email address to send nominations.
Feel free to contact me with any questions. All family nominations
should be sent to:
extremefamilycasting@gmail.com
Aaron Long
EMHE: Family Casting
I sent out a number of private email messages and made some phone calls, but
evidently Aaron wants the message spread widely and posting it here is fine. If
anyone has questions or clarifications, email and I will contact him with
questions if appropriate.
Here's a link to the nomination
FLYER.
If we can get a wildland firefighter family nominated, Extreme Makeover
will highlight the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which as Melissa and Burk
say "would be AWESOME!" National TV exposure would help gain recognition for the
work our WFF does every year in protecting our families in times of
crisis. This alone would be a tremendous gift to our whole wildland
firefighting community. Please share any and all ideas you have for nominees.
We'll keep it behind the scenes. Ab. |
| 5/2 |
GPS: Technically (because I am a geek)
There are two things that influence your location on the earth as defined by a
coordinate- the coordinate system used and the datum.
Let's take an orange as an example- so the whole orange is the earth.
Coordinate system- when you peel the peel off the orange and smoosh it on
the table- the shape of how you smoosh it is the coordinate system. Examples are
leaving it unsmooshed- geographic coordinate system (lat/long), smooshing it
into a square- UTM (military based- universal transverse mercator), or in the
state's version- Teale Albers.
Datum- the actual shape of the earth as defined by a mathematical model-
so a mandarin orange is a different shape than a navel orange. So even if we
smooshed them the same (coordinate system) after the smooshing they will be
different b/c they started out a different shape.
California State organizations in 2006 were typically using the North American
Datum (NAD) from 1927- the federal agencies tend to use the North American Datum
from 1983 (something about better math :-P).
In California the difference between the two data points is typically
approximately 100 meters. The closer you get to the center of the US the less
the difference. If you go to Hawaii, it's about 400 meters I believe. This does
not take into account if you are using two different projections -- locations
from different projections need to be converted before comparison.
And there is more than you EVER wished to know about why the state is telling
the feds something and because one is using NAD83 and the other is NAD27... well
it just isn't the same place.
A dork who instructs on this stuff regularly,
GISgirl
p.s. and just for the record WGS84 (what all helicopter people tend to use) and
NAD83 are so close mathematically that the difference is negligible.
p.p.s. for all those with kids, get the book "there's
a map on my lap" it is the best- I use it to teach all my managers |
| 5/2 |
For California First responders, EMT's and Paramedics:
The CA DMV is working with EMSA to create and implement a special license plate
to showcase the talents of hard working EMS professionals. You can get info on
this
program at: www.ICEMA.net Looks to be a really cool program where the
money
collected for the plates goes right back into training and EMS awareness. The
plated
should be available soon, so check the site often.
Eric |
| 5/2 |
GPS note that may relate to communication during a fire: Forest Service
standard is NAD83; use degrees, decimals, minutes.
Wildcad should be in NAD83.
CALFIRE uses Albers; this may be different from Nad83 by as much as 30 mi.
Got GPS? |
| 5/2 |
In Response to Tim Chavez’s letter:
I think it’s great to see former federal firefighters that are now CAL-FIRE or
Local Govt reaching out to politicians to let them know about the USFS retention
issue. When I saw the first article in the local paper about the retention issue
and the response from the USFS Chief I could not believe what I was reading.
They (USFS Management) are so out of touch with what’s really going on. Tim, you
have inspired me to compose my own message to Senator Feinstein. In it I will
include stories of the screwed up things that go on in their pay structure and
how a friend of mine was hit by a car while on duty working for the San
Bernardino National Forest while working a wildland fire on the 15 freeway in
the Cajon Pass and how the USFS did not consider this an occupational injury and
required him to sue them to pay for his medical bills. He left a full time
engineer job to go work as a seasonal with CDF because he knew he would be
working for an organization that actually looked out for its employees a little.
It’s not just the pay that’s screwed up over there.
Some of the best wildland experience I ever had was while working for the USFS
as a hotshot. I loved the mission but fell out of love with an agency that I
gave a 100% to but clearly could give a rat’s a$$ about me.
Andreas “AJ” Johansson
Corona Fire
private citizen |
| 5/2 |
Photos from Michelle Reugebrink's WFF Fundraiser at the Roseville Baskin
Robbins. The owners said they hadn't seen so many customers there ever.
It was a party with Smokey and kids and Michelle, who was honored as the only
wildland firefighter of
31 firefighter honorees chosen nationwide. Good to see FS supporters and
their families and Michelle's family in the photos. Thanks, Michelle for
supporting the WFF. Ab. |
| 5/2 |
from the hotlist
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4003 It's good to see
professional discussion going on there. Pyro5755,
I retired last June but I still A.D. and I still care.
hotshot75 |
| 5/2 |
hotshot75;
Sounds like you're still banging your head on the same wall (education,
training, quals, ed for temps/seasonals, resource management valued above
personnel and incident management, land management agencies unwilling to admit
that they even employ FF's, etc) that ultimately caused me to take my 10 years
of FS experience and go to the blue- shirts back in the mid 80's.
Some things have changed.
But the root problems remain.
Having jumped ship so long ago, I normally keep my mouth shut regarding Fed
internal problems, policies, etc; but it's nice to see that it wasn't just me.
Best of luck. (I still believe you guys have the best WLF programs out there;
the problem is it still seems to be driven from the bottom... ).
Pyro |
| 5/2 |
Hotlist thread with responses to Harbour's message.
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4003
I would like to see this letter evaluated by the firefighters who visit this
site to learn and offer their own insights on the issues that affect us all.
I'll start with the 4th paragraph:
All firefighters, especially leaders of firefighters, must be lifelong
students of fire behavior and human behavior. In our dynamic, complex and
hazardous environment, understanding both is critical to meeting our
operational objectives safely. The Forest Service relies on the judgment of
firefighters on-scene and we always will. Therefore, our focus must be on
the training and development of our fireline leadership and continuous
monitoring and critique of our actions. We recognize the weakness of ‘group
think’ and encourage each other to use our individual reasoning along with
our collective courage in every decision every day. We understand that true
safety lies in embracing the lessons learned from our tragedies, near misses
and success stories.
This is what we have been saying for years, Tom, welcome aboard.
To truly be students of fire and human behavior, we need to have the training
that is relevant to these disciplines. The fire behavior part has been fairly
competent but up to only a few years ago have we been give actual leadership
courses and these don't even count toward any position qualifications, ie,
GS-401 series positions, though they do count towards Red Card quals. Weird how
that one works isn't it?
The way to fix this is to establish a Wildland Firefighter series and get rid of
the antiquated Forestry Aid and Tech position classifications.
Establish which college courses are out there that fit a Firefighter
classification. Leadership, Management, Emergency Personnel Management, Fire
Officer, EMT and Paramedic courses and the like. They are already established
but FS personnel get no credit for these because they don't equate to natural
resource courses. I have had employees with 4 year degrees in Fire Services
Administration that could only qualify for a GS-5 Senior Firefighter position
because they had firefighter experience and worked on the family ranch. This is
absurd.
If we wanted to be Foresters we would have gone to Forestry school. We want to
be Fire Leaders and Managers so, we need to go to Fire Leader and Manager
school. It's pretty simple. OPM will do whatever the Agencies ask them to do;
they have no ownership in the GS Forestry Tech. series; they only care about the
qualifications the FS and other agencies are requiring for whatever position is
needed.
I am sure with the support of agency "leadership" colleges would be very happy
to modify Emergency Management courses to better fit the need of those
professional emergency responders who specialize in the area of Wildland and
Urban Interface response, ie, Forestry Range Techs.
As far as the "lifelong students" part goes, we cannot send our TEMPS to
training in the off season under the current personnel regs; we can't even sign
them up as volunteers and pay for their room and board and courses.
Might want to fix that while you are at it.
It's time to "fish or cut bait".
Thread with Harbour's letter:
www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4007 Ab. |
| 5/1 |
To All & ms:
| |