DATE

The thing that disturbs me the most is that there appears to be a thought process not only in fire behavior training but in all fire training that a person attends the class and they "know" the subject. Seldom have I heard any discussion with students that classroom training simply provides you the basics. You learn it by applying what you learned in the classroom out in the field WATCHING fire behavior. Module leaders need to take every opportunity to be the teacher for their crews. When your sitting on the ridgetop, road or any other place, take the opportunity to have the crew watch fire behavior and not be sleeping, writing in journals and playing hackisack. Seeing the real thing and discussing it is how you LEARN the lesson taught in the classroom.

Old retired dude

Ab,

I have noticed the large volume of posts relating to fire behavior courses and modeling tools and thought I may as well throw my two bits in for what its worth.

I would like to share a "philosophy" so to speak that several highly respected leaders in the fire community, (some retired and some not) have come up with and applied over the years to the S-390/290 curriculum in Northern California. I can share with you that in my opinion there is a definite place for some type of modeling in the "old" and now "new" S-290 curriculum. Should it be CPS, FLAME, Nomo's, or Appendix B? We'll come back to that thought!

It is no secret that the last version of 290 was a watered down 390, and I would prefer to leave the can of worms that is the re-write process alone as far as this message is concerned. It is no secret that NWCG courses are designed to be strengthened and encourage instructors to enhance the package and make it their own. How many times have you sat through an S-course and had an instructor read word for word from the slide (and these days the PowerPoint)?

Both old and new 290's were broken down (basically) into the fire environment, fuels, weather, and topography. Nomograms or predictions was an optional unit that based on my observations not many cadre wanted to touch. After all who would admit to wanting to or even enjoy teaching Nomograms? Several folks who are way smarter than me decided to keep that optional unit in the lineup because they were able to see thru the haze to the value of that crazy piece of paper with boxes, lines and numbers on it. The thinking was then as it is now, we spend almost an entire week talking about the inputs to the fire spread model, (fuel model, slope, wind speed, fine dead fuel moisture/live fuel moisture, etc). Why not take it that one last step and show students the outputs they could get after plugging them into some model like the Nomo, and appendix B. For some people this is what is needed to paint the picture in their heads and make a slide. For others it served to create confusion, especially the nomogram.

I believe the same can be said for other models and processors. Some work for folks better than others it just depends on the person teaching and the person taking it in. I can tell you that the appendix B and Nomogram worked for me (I don’t use nomos anymore). I believe I get what I need to out of them to help get myself and the people I work with home for the holidays. Like many others, I am still unsure how FLAME is going to fit in to the 290 world. I have high hopes for it because despite knowing darn well that no matter how hard I look I am not going to find that one "special thing" that will keep firefighters from paying the ultimate price, maybe FLAME will serve to be part of that "special thing" for someone out there who is new and in need of the slide it will provide. If it can serve to help just one person make the right call it is worth it in my opinion. I have a hard time believing that there are many out there who could disagree with the intent, and that is to make safer firefighters and crew bosses.

As I said I am still struggling to find how this new tool can/will fit into my world. I can assure you that I will afford all the energy and time I can and not simply shrug it off or sweep it away because it represents change. It may be that I will use a combination of multiple processors or tools as I continue to teach fire behavior, and as long as I don’t forget that the most valuable and important processor sits on top of my shoulders I should be alright! Now who can argue with that?

I must say that I am happy in a way to see all this debate over fire behavior related topics. Just when I thought all eyes were permanently fixed upon retention, pay, facilities, etc. I am encouraged by all of you who are keeping at least one eye where it should be as this season of record setting dryness (here in NorCal) spools up.

Take care........

DH

Ab, Thank you for your time and the work you do here. Like so many others I truly appreciate it. (don’t know why I haven't written till now) Don’t quite know how to go about posting on they said. If you think my words are worth pasting over there please go ahead.

DH, thanks for bringing your viewpoint. Hope you'll write in again. Ab.

Hotlist thread: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4145

TC2 comment: I believe “Solid Terrain Modeling” is also a
trade name and the “idea” is copyright protected.

Doug reply: What are you saying? So someone invents a new product and
you are worried about copyright? Buy it if you like it and don't buy if you don't.

TC2 comment: And those things are VERY expensive.

Doug reply: About $500.00 per sq, ft.

TC2 comment: And not necessarily a new idea. Remember
the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably copyright protected too)
topographic maps? The ones I have are made by Hubbard
Scientific.

Doug reply: If that is what you like, keep buying them. Are they copyright
protected too?

TC2 comment: By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the
fire stalled halfway up the slope on a south-west aspect in mid
day. Is that a signature?

Doug reply: Here's Solid Terrain models : www.stm-usa.com/. I have used the
plastic relief maps also, but check out the website above for all the information.

The fire stalling half way up a south-west aspect is a signature. The cause of the
fire slowing could have been a change in solar preheating of the fuel bed due to
smoke shading. Then you have 2 signatures on the same aspect. I have seen
this occur at times. What do you think may have caused the fire behavior
change? Maybe you could run FLAME or BEHAVE + to determine the cause?

I hope this helps you.
Doug

Abercrombie,

Assembling this discussion (CPS/FLAME) into a single thread is very helpful. It's the kind of discussion this subject needs. I took Mr. Campbell's course about six years ago, and have incorporated its sense and wisdom into my fire work. I hope to persuade my superiors to offer it again to a new batch of firefighters with my home unit soon. I have not yet had a chance to work through in detail on the use of FLAME, though I read the materials offered by Mr. Bishop and others enough to have a sense of it. I see real value in it as well, especially in the way it addresses the geometric expansion of ROS during blowup. This seems to me to fit well in general terms with the research Dr. Viejas has reported from Portugal on eruptive fire behavior.

I understand, I think, the motives of those who inserted FLAME into S-290. They wanted to give crew bosses some tools to take more direct charge of their own understanding of current and expected fire behavior at the most critical moments. From the discussions on this subject, it isn't clear to me yet what the intended audience thinks of the plan. Is it something they asked for? If not, then that may be the reason for much of the PUSH BACK. We don't like new stuff. That's no reason not to offer it, though.

CPS is a valuable tool, but I think Mr. Campbell is absolutely correct to insist that the entire course be offered as a stand-alone event, rather than incorporated piecemeal into existing S courses. There is so much of value in it that to dilute any part of it by blending with other objectives would be detrimental.

I understand the attitudes of those who would wish it otherwise, but there is enough of the observation/ experience-based knowledge of other researchers to provide valuable knowledge to those taking S290 to fill the needs of students. Perhaps a mistake made in the design of the new 290 was to put too much information in the hands of students for one course. Perhaps it was to misunderstand what level of information the students themselves were comfortable understanding. The value to me in the making the progression from 190 through 490 over time was that I had time to assimilate one level before proceeding the next one. Any curriculum that has fire modeling at its core should be directed at those who are expecting it, hard as it is. FLAME itself has three layers of detail, and maybe it would be better to expose students to those layers separately, just as in fire behavior, S390 introduced us to the principle of nomograms with the knowledge that we wouldn't have to actually think about them much unless we were geeky enough to choose to do that.

Each of the processes that are being discussed here are visualization tools. Attempts to help firefighters see in their mind's eye what will, may or is likely to happen to their fire, and give them a fighting chance to act correctly to mitigate all risks associated with their assignments. The intent of each process is the clarity and precision with which that vision can be communicated to subordinates. On the line, CPS has the advantage of expressing itself in a language that firefighters can understand without having to think in complex terms.

I do see great value in using FLAME as a more sensible field calculation system when dealing with rapid changes in burning conditions. Probably at the Strike Team or Div Sup level, though.

Thanks again for pulling all this together.

Ambrose

I emailed the folks in charge of the SJ reunion and and asked them to
pass along the posts to Tom Decker. Hopefully, we'll get a story from
him that way. If not, I've tracked down a snail addy for him and will
send him a letter.

JerseyBoy

I believe “Solid Terrain Modeling” is also a trade name and the “idea” is
copyright protected. And those things are VERY expensive. And not
necessarily a new idea. Remember the plastic Vac-U-Form (probably
copyright protected too) topographic maps? The ones I have are made
by Hubbard Scientific.

By the way on the recent Santa Anita Fire the fire stalled halfway up the
slope on a south-west aspect in mid day. Is that a signature?

TC2

I loved your story and can definitely remember the days of "free love". I was growing up in the Bay Area during that time and a trip to Haight-Ashbury was a real treat. Those were some interesting sights!

However, the show I was watching was filmed in the early 60's so the fire he was talking about had to of occurred much earlier than 1970. I am hoping that someone who knows Tom will see his name being bantered around and will get in touch with him. I would love to hear the story from him first hand.

Gee, will all these X rated stories.... no wonder John loved being a wildland firefighter! ;-)

Lori

Highway dedicated to fallen Esperanza firefighters Friday
www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080506/NEWS01/80506037

State Highway 243 will be officially dedicated as the Esperanza Firefighters Memorial Highway in a special ceremony Friday.

State Assemblyman John J. Benoit will speak at the dedication, set for 10 a.m. at the Silent Valley RV Club in the small mountain community of Poppet Flats. That's near where five U.S. Forest Service firefighters based in Idyllwild were overrun by the Esperanza wildfire on Oct. 26, 2006. Four died at the scene; the fifth five days later.

more at the link

Distributions Used To Pay Insurance Premiums for Public Safety Officers

If you are an eligible retired public safety officer (law enforcement officer, firefighter, chaplain, or member of a rescue squad or ambulance crew), you can elect to exclude from income distributions made from an eligible retirement plan that are used to pay the premiums for accident or health insurance or long-term care insurance. The premiums can be for coverage for you, your spouse, or dependents. The distribution must be made directly from the plan to the insurance provider. You can exclude from income the smaller of the amount of the insurance premiums or $3,000. You can only make this election for amounts that would otherwise be included in your income. The amount excluded from your income cannot be used to claim a medical expense deduction.

For this purpose, an eligible retirement plan is a governmental plan that is:

* A qualified trust,
* A section 403(a) plan,
* A section 403(b) annuity, or
* A section 457(b) plan.

The CSRS and FERS are considered eligible retirement plans.

How to report. If you make this election, reduce the otherwise taxable amount of your annuity by the amount excluded. The taxable annuity shown on Form CSA 1099R does not reflect this exclusion. Report your total distributions on Form 1040, line 16a; Form 1040A, line 12a; or Form 1040NR, line 17a. Report the taxable amount on Form 1040, line 16b; Form 1040A, line 12b; or Form 1040NR, line 17b. Enter “PSO” next to the appropriate line on which you report the taxable amount.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Good story about creative problem solving, people stepping up,
and generosity of the fire family/ persistent retired law enforcement
officer. Photos of  those who died.

Small (Colorado) fire company regroups after loss
www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_9187813

A bridge collapse last month during a devastating brush fire took the lives of two firefighters and destroyed one of tiny Olney Springs' three firetrucks.

But since the tragedy, four men have joined the volunteer fire department in the southeastern Colorado town of 300, nearly doubling the size of the unit.

And Fred McKnight, a volunteer firefighter from Ouray County, coaxed a California fire department into donating a fire tanker to Olney Springs, which has a fire budget of only about $4,000 a year.

Ab,

In going through the documents on the GS-0401 issue, I discovered a mistake
in my earlier post. It appears that the commitment for agency funding to
purchase NWCG courses retroactively is limited to the Forest Service. The
April 25 USDA/USDOI Update states, "For the Forest Service - where
agreements are in place, agencies will pay for any past credits when they
are creditable toward GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist standards through
October 1, 2010." While we are pleased to have achieved this for the
employees we represent, we also feel all wildland firefighters should have
the same opportunity.

Also, to answer a question that's come up: In subsequent discussions with
agency leadership, we were told that this was intended to apply to
incumbents, not necessarily to folks whose next logical position would be a
GS-0401 position. We will continue to work for a legislative solution that
renders this point moot by restoring the standing of in-house courses, and
also internally with the agency to extend the same offer to non-incumbents
who have also been harmed by the mid-stream change in rules.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

No one figured out his secret - they barely understood what he did! The closest one person
got was when he was asked if, when he got stuck in the tree, his pants came off. I wonder if
Tom has ever seen that old clip. I must give kudos to the host of the show - he named the
agency correctly and spoke of how brave the men and women who protect our forests are!

Of course, we all know that, right?

Lori

I went to the SJ website and looked on their '07 Boise Reunion list.
Thomas Decker is listed on the R4 Idaho City '64 SJ crew (that crew
has dates from 1948-1968). Someone should email him and ask
him to write in and tell his story here and also tell the "I've Got a
Secret Story". Did anyone figure out his secret, Lori?

Mellie

Can anyone recall the X-Rated fire outside of Takilma OR in SW Oregon
(behind Greyback Mountain). That fire was on or butted up to one of the
oldest nudist back-to-the-earth communes and occurred in that time frame.
Don't remember a SJ Tom Decker on that fire, but could of been. The Cave
Junction SJs were there fighting fire with greatly heightened Situational
Awareness of more than just fire behavior!

I could add that fire to my "Just One More Time" list.

Weren't those the days...

Just One More Time thread. Ab.

His secret was that on his very first jump, he landed in the middle of a nudist colony.  Now, how many of you can top that story?!?

This young man's name was Tom Decker and he was from Emmett, Idaho.  I was wondering if anyone out there knows Tom or was on this smokejumping crew? 
 
Lori

I heard that occurred in Oregon (Cave Junction SJs ? and that the people there were fighting fire naked. Ouch?) Readers, any more info? Ab.

KCK: Doug, You said, "CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into the calculations".

You then went into describing things that SHOULD be taught in the basic I and S courses.. but provided a caveat that they shouldn't be taught "in any existing course".

Doug's Answer:
I am not criticizing the content of any S-course.
I was talking about having the entire course squished into an existing course which
would cut a lot out of the presentation. I did not mean to suggest that some of
the subject matter should not be included in S-courses because it has already
happened. I just happen to think that cherry picking CPS training apart is not
my preference. Linking human factors and observation/prediction skills is
important in that without the right mission and vision, ethics, the training does
not result in the same approach to firefighting.

KCK: Doug, you mentioned both Will and Drew..... how about trusting the rest of of us?

Doug: I will trust all who have an interest in taking the CPS course and doing the
work that it takes to be able to present the concepts properly.

KCK: It is a real small world we travel in...... Some of us really hate roadblocks and wrong
turns when we are finally heading in the right direction.... Your call my friend and mentor.

Doug: I do not want to be a roadblock. Some folks have assumed that since I have a
copyright on the book that this is a block. If some want to make it a roadblock
I guess they can, but I did not foresee my work constrained by copyright.
I have offered to share the graphics with Germany for instance if they would
take my stories out and replace them with theirs.

I have spent thousands of my funds to publish the book and workbook, as has
Bill Teie, for instance: his book has been purchased by many departments.
While I was still employed by the FS I asked the WO to assist me in creating this
course. I was asked to provide an overview for them to look over. I spent
$1,500.00 on the printing of the paper. This resulted in no assistance from
the agency and forced me to develop the course on my own and at my own
expense.

KCK: I'm really confused on your message.

Doug: What is your personal road block? How are you confused?
I hope my reply helps you understand what my opinion is and that I do not want CPS
to contest another course of study that exists, nor do I wish that CPS replace
any NWCG course. I am not in a contest with FLAME, BEHAVE, FARSITE or any
other fire behavior course. If some agency wants the training, I can help them
achieve it by either myself or others. The Forest Service already has the course
material and does training, such as Redding Hotshots each year; as well as in
Colorado Fire Camp, Los Angeles County Fire department and more.
I think that you made some assumptions beyond my meaning.

Best regards
Doug

Doug says anyone can call him to discuss any confusions.

From my perspective, perhaps the real question is: What is the purpose of the S-190, 290 etc classes, which in my opinion point toward fire behavior modeling, unless the current FLAME inclusion in 290 serves only a simulation training kind of function?

Doug's class helps firefighters on the ground make observations and predictions of the fire from their observations of fire on the ground where they are. To large extent, historically, the other classes were devoid of training on observational skills. Like Tim, I would ask trainers (and trainees) what their more recent experience is. Perhaps there should be two paths with different purposes since fire modeling and on-the-ground fire prediction are both critically important. Just a thought. Ab.

• Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in time and place.
• Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing, a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.
• The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.
• The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions of change from observed fire behavior.
• Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.
• The threshold of control determination that assist the firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can succeed tactically.
• Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior over time, on the terrain.
• How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.

Thanks!

Still Out There ...

With regards to the first issue, I can say that the CPS was discussed as a possible inclusion into the 290 curriculum. To the best of my recollection, that consideration was short-lived due to proprietary/copyright/financial issues.

The CPS training program is used by many of the people whom I have taught the program to. Will Spyrison of the Los Angeles NF, River District and Andrew Smith of LA County Fire Department, are two of many, with the graphics furnished to them by myself. The only place that copyright issues are in play are the CPS books and Workbooks. I would gladly offer special consideration to overcome hesitation to adopt the course and material as I have done in Europe.

However, inclusion into any of the S-courses would not be my desire. CPS is not contesting fire modeling and should not be mixed in with current course material any more than its terms and concepts already have been. It is a small course that is based on old wisdom of successful firefighters.

CPS addresses important things that fire models do not factor into the calculations, such as:

Trigger Points of fire behavior change and or decision points in time and place.

Situational awareness of the fire ground getting worse or easing, a crucial need to know in spotfire and many other tactical situations.

The alignment of force concept, true cause and affect factors.

The ground truth of fire signatures and how to make predictions of change from observed fire behavior.

Ethics of a firefighter, human factor information.

The threshold of control determination that assist the firefighter in making a decision as to where the suppression forces can succeed tactically.

Using Solid terrain models that are new technology and actual fire situations as well as applying the lesson to solving fire problems are utilized. How to describe a wildland fire and predict variations in behavior over time, on the terrain.

How to display fire behavior potential extremes on terrain maps.

All of these subject matters are not part of fire modeling.

I therefore do not recommend, for what that may be worth, inclusion of CPS training in any existing course.

Respectfully
Doug Campbell

P.S. See page 10 & 11 for viability of fire modeling. FS Wildland Fire External R&D Peer Review, '07

I have one order here on my desk from last year. It states that the IC requested "x piece of equipment" at 07:00 on a Saturday, my dispatch received the order at 13:00 on Saturday, they, dispatch, where staffed this particular Saturday until 23:40hrs, I d id not get called from dispatch until 11:07 on Sunday. so, 1 hour to hit the road and a 7 hour drive later, we arrived at 20:00 hours. in the meantime property was damaged and destroyed. Could have lil 'ole me stopped that outcome??? Who knows? Could have we possibly reduced or prevented some of the damages? Well I am not sure, but we would have fought hard to protect the properties! The IC lost over 24 hours of use of " x piece of equipment". I would love for someone to look into ROSS to see what personnel and equipment was available to support the 30 mile incident during IA or even extended IA.

Many times I have gone by our dispatch, even on "heavy" days and they work at the same pace.... I know, one has to be thorough , but come on guys! Yes I do have more than one bone to pick with dispatch, but look AB I kept this note to one topic:) And that being efficiency!

R6 fireguy

I'm fairly sure ROSS wasn't widely in use in 2001. As I understand it, the kinks are still getting worked out of that program. Last year or year before some dispatchers were still doing the work by hand and transferring info into ROSS some time after the "crisis" when things slowed down. Ab.

"A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland firefighters
to view future investigations, FLAs, and APAs as witch hunts. Even self-reported
errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or
character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If personal
liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open and honest
testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the well
dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator
of things to come."

Ellreese’s situation in the aftermath of that incident is bad enough; can you imagine
what "they" would have subjected poor Lotzi to (with Ellreese as the precedent you
refer to), right this moment, had he survived his crew?

I shudder at the thought.

(The Esperanza report made me weep. 'Nuff said.)

Peace... and be safe out there, everyone. Fire season has arrived already, and it's
going to be a doozie.

--Short Stuff

Local Officials,
Please forward to fire personnel.

We have already made progress based on the NWCG courses front. Based on
Congressional pressure that was a direct result of our legislative work,
the IFPM deadline for conversion to GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist
positions has been pushed back to October of 2010. Further, the Forest
Service and DOI agencies have committed to reaching an agreement with a
university partner to obtain retroactive credit for incumbents (those in
401 positions or in 462 positions scheduled for conversion) and to pay the
necessary fees. It would not have happened without the tremendous response
from the field.

This is good progress, but it's not good enough. You may have heard that a
legislative remedy is "dead." I can assure you that NFFE was not sitting
at the table when that deal was struck and we have not signed off on it.
We will continue to work for an outright waiver. It makes no sense to use
limited training funds just to get documentation on a sheepskin instead of
an NWCG certificate. It makes no sense to leave those for whom a GS-0401
is their career path out in the cold. It makes no sense to have
second-class 401s -- those placed in their positions based on the old
qualification standards -- who cannot be promoted, lateraled, or even
detailed into other 401 positions. It makes no sense to diminish our
training capabilities by spending more money for training we can do better
in-house.

For more information, including our continuing efforts on your behalf, see
our Fire webpage at www.nffe-fsc.org/Documents/IFPM/Fire_Index.html.
Recent developments and our analysis of them are on page 3 of the
Congressional Briefing paper.

Before signing off, I have to thank the many employees who responded to our
request for information from the front lines in only three days. The
magnitude of this response is what convinced a key Congressional staffer
and his boss to put this issue on the table at the April 1 Forest Service
budget hearing. This is what solidarity is all about. If we speak the
truth, and speak it loudly, we can be heard. This is what your union is
all about. It provides the framework within which this can happen. But it
only happens if we all step up to the plate.

Take care all -- and be safe.

Mark Davis, Chair
NFFE Forest Service Council Legislative Committee

Gross negligence is voluntary disregard of the need to act in the way that a reasonable firefighter would act. It is conduct that is more than mere inadvertence, but it is still shy of being intentionally malicious. If negligence is being careless, then gross negligence is being REALLY careless. Think: careless to the point that it is almost impossible to believe the person didn't know what they were doing.

With all due respect to Nomad, I can't help but shake the feeling that well-meaning firefighter types are being played by the insurance industry on this one. I don't profess to give anyone advice in this area, but . . . private liability insurance for government employees acting within the scope of their employment? Really?

Sovereign immunity cuts a pretty wide swath through tort liability. My hunch is that most incidents serious enough to exceed the scope of that immunity will also void an insurance policy.

Just my two cents. Which are worth even less.

Take care,
PB

www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4055

Bit the Bullet…

I feel your pain…even from the State side of fire.

How many Oregon Department of Forestry fire personnel out there are concerned about
firefighter liability? Do you feel comfortable with the AG's opinion on the matter?

Can someone define "Gross Negligence" as it pertains to wildland firefighting?

Gross negligence is the intentional failure to perform a manifest duty in reckless disregard of the consequences as affecting the life or property of another. So, gross negligence consists of conscious and voluntary act or omission which is likely to result in grave injury when in face of clear and present danger of which alleged tortfeasor is aware. Apply this definition to anything you like as it pertains to wildland firefighting.

TD

"E704 could have been returned and worked through the night to pump out the spots. Additional engines and crews would have eliminated the hazard of a sleeping beast"

"but I find it strange that the resources weren't punched out and continued until the emergency was abated"

"Rather than focus on disengagement and other foolish concepts"

You sure assume a lot. Were you up in WA, during this incident? Do you know the availability of resources? I work for CalFire as well and we use the "foolish tactic" of disengagement all the time. Your post reeks of ego driven bravado which I would guess the administrators of this web site frown on and I am certain will cause you serious problems on the line.
\
James

I have read all the reports, McLean's book, and walked the site. When I asked a member of the investigation team why I.A. consisted of 3 people in a pickup, the reply was "You're from Calif., aren't you?" (This was not a criticism; merely a statement that the culture of rapid, overwhelming I.A. may not be the norm everywhere.)

If the Forest was short of engines, why wasn’t a local govt. (structure) engine dispatched to supplement I.A.? With an unlimited water source next to the road, the deck gun from such an engine could have taken much of the heat out of this fire when still small.

I suspect there may not have been a history of this type of cooperation/ mutual aid between the Forest and Local Govt. If this was the case, have steps been taken to remedy this attitude?

CalFire (Ret.); now local govt. Volunteer

Thus, four questions must be answered:
(1). Did Ellreese have a duty and what, specifically was it?
(2). Was there a demonstrable series of actions on the part of Ellreese that constituted a breach
of his legal duty to those under his command?
(3). What damages were incurred as a result of Ellreese's alleged breach of duty?
(4). This is the tough one: It must be proven that the actions, or lack thereof, by Ellreese actually
caused the damages being alleged.

Gross Negligence is basically negligence on steroids, to put it simply.

I hope this helps.

Nomad

It's the one and only Ab, me. I'm commenting on a pattern that I have never seen in the jobs posted on the 0462 series, ie almost the entire first page of 0462 all being non FS jobs. Thanks for the clarification. I'd still like to know why the pattern exists. Ab.

do the more outraged families realize that Ellreese going to jail may have a
negative impact on fire fighter safety?

No they don't. They see it as forcing a bunch of cowboys (not my term, I have
seen one of the families or Cantwell use that term) to behave more responsibly
expecting it might save some other parent from suffering the way they are. Remember,
their fire experience is limited to Thirty Mile and various sources of training materials.

If you look at fire fighting training material and the 10 and 18 with no fire experience,
fire suppression looks fairly black and white. The investigation report was pretty
black and white also. So in their minds, they can see no reason why Ellreese made
the decisions that he made

Unfortunately, I believe that Ellreese is also going to have to pay for mistakes that
the Agency made in the investigation and with how it was presented to the families.

Remember that PL 107 is an outgrowth from comments made about their loved
ones who died. PL 107 would not be around if the investigation would have at least
made an attempt cover the two potential scenarios: about if Ellreese did or didn't say
"come off the rocks". (Rather than conducting the investigation in complete secrecy,
if they had checked their conclusions or at least the controversial ones with the crew
members before going public with the report, imagine where we would be now.)

Hopefully the Agency will learn from its mistakes.

Big Smooth

If no one said "come off the rocks", why did the one female firefighter who was on the rocks --and went down to the road before the fire blew through-- decide to go down, thereby saving her own life? Just wondering. Ab.

Again, let me ask why so many of the Series 0462 (forestry techs) are BLM jobs, which have largely been 0455 (range techs)? Same with 0401 (biologists); now that makes a bit more sense since DOI agencies had lead on that whole fiasco following Storm King and most of those that were FS offerings were frozen.

Take a look at the jobs pages. "Forestry techs" are being hired by BIA, BLM, NPS, FWS? This used to be a Forest Service firefighting job series at least in higher numbers than now. What's up? Or did DOI just figure out how to get positioned on the search engines? Or has the FS shot itself in the foot regarding the firefighting job market... Locally, in the past few months I've had 2 excellent young people ask why it's so hard to find FS firefighting jobs...

Ab.

I think you answered your own question when you say your FMO and friends back HOME.
Good luck and stay safe.

smokeater

I can hear the frustration in your post. Is it that management is setting you up for failure or are they actually setting you up for success? A lot depends on management styles. There are many different management styles.

Could management actually be allowing you to make decisions and be trying to mold you into that leadership role or hanging you out to dry? There are many supervisors that “micro manage” and many that are just too “lackadaisical”. Unfortunately it is difficult to find the perfect mix. I have found that the best leaders just don’t require much supervision. This is not to be confused with management and that is where the support needs to come from. Moving from the firefighter ranks to the Engine Captain ranks is a big step. I think there are too many reasons to determine why task books may or may not be certified at a certain time (fire type, quality of assignment, assignment length and location, policy etc). The role of a GS-7 Engineer and GS-8 Captain on a Type III engine is huge. Back when Region 5 upgraded these positions it was classified that these are very complex positions and required highly qualified and highly experienced people and would require minimal supervision. It might be that you are acting in the position as it was intended.

In this time of all the retention and recruitment problems I have to ask, is training and the allowance of additional training assignments being provided? There are many supervisors that just won’t allow people take assignments and this is hurting our organizations.

If it is information that you need don’t hesitate to use this forum.

Give it time…. Task books are very subjective and every manager wants to be assured that when they sign that final evaluator’s block, that you are ready to take everything that is dealt.

Happy Trails

I transferred to the BLM out here (Cali) last year and started at the same time with my captain, who has since left and gone off to bigger and better things, (which I don't blame him for). His leaving has made me acting supervisor of my crew. Since mid-March, we have been without a captain which has placed our engine out of service. My seasonals are now on, and I'm in the process of getting them their fire refresher, and 130/190, and doing other stuff in the process. I have received little or no help from management. There's been a lack of information sent to me in a timely manner. Right now I'm doing my best, with thanks to my crew from R-3 who taught me well. But right now, I have to make a decision.

I have been offered to lateral back home to R-3 BLM. I would like to stay in Cali, I've gotten used to the area, we have a new engine, I like being on a T-3, along with the other perks that I can't do back in R-3. But when your engine is out of service because you have no captain, and you have your engine boss/ crew boss task book completed and it just needs the final signature, you turn it in, only for it to be given back to you and told that you have not been in Cali long enough, and to wait until fall for a signature, that just brings down morale and makes one think. So for now, I will sign the R3 offer and fax it back. I still have a lot to do to get my folks prepared and get our ducks in a row, with our national review coming up at the end of the month. Then will see what comes after the review, if management well finally see that I'm not some dummy from R-3. If nothing changes after the review, then I will have no choice but to return to R-3.

So do I leave, and leave this crew without both an engineer and captain, or do I stay and let down my FMO and friends back home?

I am not sure at this point, only time well tell at the end of the month.

Why do we need ANOTHER committee to tell the region and the agency what
we've been telling them for years, OUR FACILITIES ARE DETERIORATING
AND THERE IS NO SHORT TERM FIX. I'm so tired of new committees
looking at the same old issues and nothing ever happening. If we are to maintain
a "budget neutral" fix then are we really going to see any changes or is this just
another resume builder for some of our out of touch higher ups. You know we
could flood the inboxes of the groups and let them know what we think but are
they going to listen is the real question.

ME

Have you seen the letter below? Have you been asked for comments on the facilities you work at
or manage? Have you been allowed to be a part of the discussion and provide input on this?

This is your Retention Facilities Work Group..... at work.

Demand to be heard! I would suggest you flood some inboxes about right now on your issues If you
think these Work Groups will be working for us for the next 10 years, your wrong. We would be
lucky if they're still in place 10 weeks from now.

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY

While you're at it, take some photos/videos of the "facilities" and send them in if you like. Condition of facilities is one issue. There's no way to demonstrate the lack of facilities, but this lack is one of the big issues with retention and recruitment. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: April 29, 2008
Subject: Fire Facilities
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors

The Region has recently stood up four work groups to address key areas impacting the ability to perform our fire mission. These four groups include Pay and Retention, Mission, Workplace, and Facilities. With regard to the Facilities Work Group, headed by Ed Cole, they are currently developing options leading to an overall strategy to address Region 5 Fire Facility (including quarters) deficiencies, which impact the fire mission, and result in a negative impact on retention.

To most effectively and expeditiously identify needs and implement remedies in line with our projected needs, their efforts have been split into two parallel approaches; short-term, and long-term issues. The “short-term” issues are those which have a current, direct impact on the safety of personnel and/or are having a distinct negative impact on the ability to perform the current Fire Support mission. The long-term issues shall address those issues that are of strategic nature in terms of identifying the type, number, and location of fire support assets necessary, to successfully execute both the current, and projected regional fire support mission.

Addressing the short-term issues, they will commence by gathering data which accurately identifies short-term issues across the region, and develop a means to prioritize and rectify as soon as possible. To gather the short-term data, I am tasking each Forest Supervisor to ensure input in the following categories is provided in enclosure (1), as gathered from the appropriate members of your staff. These short term issues, as described above, should be limited in scope, with the ability to be rectified quickly with the appropriate resources, resulting in an immediate visible or quantifiable difference. Provide your input within two weeks directly to Ed Cole, or no later than May 12, 2008.

1. Health & Safety, i.e. FAD asbestos, water contamination, vermin/vector control,
electrical hazards, heating system failures, lack of weatherproof integrity, food
preparation & storage, etc.
2. Mission, i.e. communication system failures/inadequacies (phones, computers),
vehicle protection, exercise facilities, power generation, etc.

The input should consist of 3 prioritized items per category, include cost estimates utilizing “Means”, and draw upon data from recent safety inspections and INFRA, as well as staff input.

This information will then be categorized into common groupings. The group will also be looking at all available resources in order to rectify the short-term issues as quickly as possible. Future correspondence will outline the details regarding the approach and proposed remedies regarding the “long term” issues.

/s/ James M. Peña
JAMES M. PEÑA
Deputy Regional Forester

Enclosure: (1) Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues
cc: Edward Cole

Short-Term Prioritized Fire Facility Issues

Health & Safety
1.)
2.)
3.)

Mission
1.)
2.)
3.)

Q1: Do you have assigned facility site managers at each of the fire facilities to address day-to-day facility and housekeeping needs?
Yes____ No____
Comments:

Q2: Do you have a published Forest policy addressing housekeeping at these facilities, and to hold personnel accountable in the event of facility damage beyond routine wear and tear?
Yes____ No____
Comments:

Thank you for your steadfast and resolute support for the firefighters around the country.
Like the climb up a steep ridge, you do it one foot at a time.

Your words about families and feelings really hit home. It is difficult to find meaning in
these tragic losses other then hurt and pain. Healing does not come in courtroom. Like
you, I wish peace for each member of the families who lost a loved one. Making the
journey to Idaho might be the first step in that process.

Wildman

One of the biggest problems with mathematical modeling of fire behavior is the use of "constants" in an ever evolving equation.

Recently, two researchers (one from Europe and one from the US) began studying the variables that were left out of the Rothermel 1972 equation because they were too hard to quantify at the time.

From those two initial researchers, nearly two dozen scientists and practitioners of fire behavior world-wide have started to study (and try to explain) "momentum" or "exponential growth" to describe blow-up (eruptive growth) fire behavior.

While it may seem trivial, chains per hour vs. acres per hour cannot be properly calculated or discussed without fully announcing that there are known errors in every model, table, or job aid that folks are often relying upon for safety and decision making.

Case in point: Often, the Rothermel adapted equations used in Behave (et al) often over predict rates of spread in NFFL fuel model 4. Conversely, in several well documented tragedy fires (Europe, US, and Australia), the Rothermel model under predicted rates of spread more than ten fold.

Dr. D.X. Villegas (Europe) and Dr. Jo Ann Fites (US)... as well as countless other scientists and fire behavior practitioners are working on the problem. One of the first HSU capstone projects was able to recreate the observed rate of spread and acreage gain on a past fire (Louisiana, CA-BDF, 2002) and apply the research of Dr. Villegas and Dr. Fites in a real world, predictive services setting for wildland firefighter safety. It is just a baby step forward....... but if Forestry Technicians can grasp the concept and do the math.... go figure. It isn't rocket science..... it's Fire Science.

We can do better in keeping our folks safer.

Gizmo

Reading most of the comments about FLAME and CPS started me thinking of how to describe the differences between the two concepts. Most of the fire behavior models do not address the human factors that are responsible for distractions and loss of situational awareness. CPS begins with the ethics of a successful firefighter. This information comes from Hotshot crew leaders who have excellent safety records. What is their attitude and what are the ethics that guide them?

Knowing fire modeling or other methods of predicting fire behavior are not going to prevent fire behavior related accidents. Attitude and an ethical approach to suppression action are needed. Some have it and some don't and have paid a price for the lack of proper ethics. It shouldn't be separated from fire behavior training.
Realizing that a good mission and vision statement was necessary for successful long-term firefighting I included it into the CPS class.

Another difference is in the reliability of fire behavior models to make predictions that are relevant to the tactical actions on wildland fires. During my years as an Operations Section Chief and I.C. on initial attacks and large fires, calculating rate of spread and flame length were not useful to tacticians. What is needed are certain perimeter lines where the fire behavior, fuel density and steepness of slope are within the threshold of control for the resources available. Areas where there are reasonable expectations of successful suppression are identified and directly affect the tactical plan. The best guides that I have found over the years are the actual fire behavior signatures that are the ground truth. Understanding the cause of variations in fire behavior is the key to predicting where these causes will host replications of the variations in fire behavior (signatures).

CPS is designed for working firefighters based on experience in the field. It is a logical system focusing on what is useful and necessary to be a safer fire fighter.

The course outline is included here to help understand what CPS is all about.

Wildland Fire Signature Prediction Methods
8 to16 hour course

INSTRUCTOR OBJECTIVES:
To present the elements of wildland fire experience
A segment of human factors, ethics and mission and vision of a firefighter.
How to use Logic, Information and Language on the fireground.
How to gain successful outcomes on wildland fires.

STUDENT OBJECTIVES:
Students will pass the pre-test with less than 6 incorrect answers.
Students will participate in classroom discussions.

OUTLINE:
      Pre-class study guide.
·      Mission, Vision and the ethics of a successful firefighter, the human factors segment.
·      How fuels are really dried, how fast and how much.
·      How to describe a wildland fire and know if it is getting worse or easier.
·      Fire modeling and logic model uses
·      What to do when meeting a wildland fire
·      Scientific concepts, tools and applications
·      The alignment of forces concept.
·      Fire situation exercises using solid terrain models.
·      Course summary
·      Final test
·      Course evaluation

Submitted by
Doug Campbell

Thanks, Doug. I knew your program was considering the human factors aspects of firefighter attitude and ethics years ago. Visionary. Ab.

All,

Although I was pleased to hear that prosecutors have dropped all felony charges against Ellreese in return for guilty pleas on two federal misdemeanor counts, I don’t think that celebrations or congratulations are appropriate. As I understand it, Ellreese could still face time in jail under this agreement.

A dangerous precedent has now been set that could cause wildland firefighters to view future investigations, FLAs, and APAs as witch hunts. Even self-reported errors in AARs could be construed as admissions of personal fallibility or character traits that could later be used against you in a court case. If personal liability and jail time is what firefighters can expect for providing open and honest testimony about accidents, how long do you think it will take before the well dries up? The CAL FIRE response after Esperanza is probably a good indicator of things to come.

James Reason says that in order to have a true safety culture in a large organization like the USFS, you must first foster a “reporting culture” in which people feel empowered to openly share information, which may include admissions of personal error, for the greater good of the organization. But before you can have a reporting culture, you must first establish a “just culture” in which people can feel confident that recorded statements about what they saw and did on the fireline will not be unfairly used against them.

All wildland firefighters are the losers in this case. We lose the ability to have open discourse about accidents and near misses, which diminishes our ability to learn and share lessons from these incidents, which makes all of us less safe.

In the years since Thirtymile, I have participated in dozens of wildland fire safety discussions in which someone has referenced some aspect of the Thirtymile Fire to illustrate a particular point. I would venture to say that it is likely that there are firefighters alive today because lessons they learned from the Thirtymile Fire helped keep them out of harm’s way.

It makes me sad to see that some of the Thirtymile families are still calling for Ellreese’s punishment. I wonder if they understand that if Ellreese goes to jail, more firefighters will quit sharing important lessons, the kind of lessons that could save future firefighters from experiencing what their children faced at Thirtymile.

I wonder too if the families realize how much the wildland fire community reveres the memories of their children, our fallen comrades. We also feel cheated because these fine young people didn’t get a chance to accomplish all of the great things we know they were capable of doing. Jessica, Devin, Tom, and Karen will remain alive in our memories for as long as firefighters fight fire. That lonely rockslide on the Chewuch River has become hallowed ground for us.

Misery Whip

That's a picture of a Warthog Pin, alright. There's been 3 'Keepers of the Pins' over the years. The 'Keepers' give out the pins at fires when they work with folks who perform according to 'Warthog principles': SH$T Principle (as described in the earlier post), etc.......... Every once and awhile there will be a reunion for all Warthogs to come together and party (I didnt say 'celebrate'); most of these lately have been retirement gigs.

The Rambob

On the Engines 20 photo page and Handcrews 23 photo page:

Southern Fire 1 & 2: Photos from the Southern Fire, March 22-24, 2008. This was west of Phoenix near the City of Avondale, burning in the Gila River bottom. I believe the Phoenix Fire automatic aid system worked this as a second alarm brush on the 22nd, then turned it over to BLM and Arizona State Forestry. Units from the Central Arizona Wildland Response Team, other Arizona FDs, BLM, and Arizona Dept. of Corrections hand crews worked it on the 23 and 24th, contained at 200 acres. Photos compliments of Todd F. (0408)

AZ E-362: Photo of a crewmember from Arizona State Engine 362 on the Middle Fork Complex, Boise NF. August 2007. Photo compliments of AZfirefighter (TF0408)

www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005120535

Report renews questions about helicopter crash
Accident claimed the life of former valley resident, pilot Quin R. Stone

By JASON KAUFFMAN
Express Staff Writer

A report released in March calls into question a prior conclusion citing pilot error as the cause of a August 2006 helicopter crash that claimed the life of a former Hulen Meadows man.

Quin R. Stone, 42, most recently of Emmett, was the pilot of the Eurocopter A Star 350 B-3 helicopter that went down Aug. 13, 2006, in the Payette National Forest during a fire-fighting mission. Stone, who grew up in the Hulen Meadows subdivision north of Ketchum, was killed along with firefighters Lillian Patten, 34, of Olympia, Wash.; Michael Gene Lewis, 37, of Cascade; and Monica Lee Zajanc, 27, of Boise.

An earlier report, questioned by Stone's friends and family, was released in June 2007 by the National Transportation Safety Board and claimed that intentional low-altitude flight was the cause of the helicopter crash that killed the crew.

The accident occurred about 18 miles west of the remote hamlet of Yellow Pine. Stone was flying the firefighters to the Krassel Guard Station in support of fire-fighting activities.

But in the new report released by David Rupert of R.J. Waldron & Co., a company based in British Columbia that investigates aircraft accidents, investigators claim the accident was actually caused by the loss of 5-gallon water containers and refuse from the right side of the helicopter's cargo basket. [more of this interesting article at the link]

My name is Aaron Long and I am writing from ABC's Extreme
Makeover: Home Edition. We are hoping to build a home for a
heroic firefighter in our upcoming season. I have attached a flyer
that includes the appropriate email address to send nominations.
Feel free to contact me with any questions. All family nominations
should be sent to:

extremefamilycasting@gmail.com

Aaron Long
EMHE: Family Casting

I sent out a number of private email messages and made some phone calls, but evidently Aaron wants the message spread widely and posting it here is fine. If anyone has questions or clarifications, email and I will contact him with questions if appropriate.

Here's a link to the nomination FLYER.

If we can get a wildland firefighter family nominated, Extreme Makeover will highlight the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, which as Melissa and Burk say "would be AWESOME!" National TV exposure would help gain recognition for the work our WFF does every year in protecting our families in times of crisis. This alone would be a tremendous gift to our whole wildland firefighting community. Please share any and all ideas you have for nominees. We'll keep it behind the scenes. Ab.

Technically (because I am a geek)

There are two things that influence your location on the earth as defined by a coordinate- the coordinate system used and the datum.

Let's take an orange as an example- so the whole orange is the earth.

Coordinate system- when you peel the peel off the orange and smoosh it on the table- the shape of how you smoosh it is the coordinate system. Examples are leaving it unsmooshed- geographic coordinate system (lat/long), smooshing it into a square- UTM (military based- universal transverse mercator), or in the state's version- Teale Albers.

Datum- the actual shape of the earth as defined by a mathematical model- so a mandarin orange is a different shape than a navel orange. So even if we smooshed them the same (coordinate system) after the smooshing they will be different b/c they started out a different shape.

California State organizations in 2006 were typically using the North American Datum (NAD) from 1927- the federal agencies tend to use the North American Datum from 1983 (something about better math :-P).

In California the difference between the two data points is typically approximately 100 meters. The closer you get to the center of the US the less the difference. If you go to Hawaii, it's about 400 meters I believe. This does not take into account if you are using two different projections -- locations from different projections need to be converted before comparison.

And there is more than you EVER wished to know about why the state is telling the feds something and because one is using NAD83 and the other is NAD27... well it just isn't the same place.

A dork who instructs on this stuff regularly,

GISgirl

p.s. and just for the record WGS84 (what all helicopter people tend to use) and NAD83 are so close mathematically that the difference is negligible.

p.p.s. for all those with kids, get the book "there's a map on my lap" it is the best- I use it to teach all my managers

Forest Service standard is NAD83; use degrees, decimals, minutes.
Wildcad should be in NAD83.
CALFIRE uses Albers; this may be different from Nad83 by as much as 30 mi.

Got GPS?

Pyro5755,

I retired last June but I still A.D. and I still care.

hotshot75

I would like to see this letter evaluated by the firefighters who visit this site to learn and offer their own insights on the issues that affect us all.

I'll start with the 4th paragraph:

All firefighters, especially leaders of firefighters, must be lifelong students of fire behavior and human behavior. In our dynamic, complex and hazardous environment, understanding both is critical to meeting our operational objectives safely. The Forest Service relies on the judgment of firefighters on-scene and we always will. Therefore, our focus must be on the training and development of our fireline leadership and continuous monitoring and critique of our actions. We recognize the weakness of ‘group think’ and encourage each other to use our individual reasoning along with our collective courage in every decision every day. We understand that true safety lies in embracing the lessons learned from our tragedies, near misses and success stories.

This is what we have been saying for years, Tom, welcome aboard.

To truly be students of fire and human behavior, we need to have the training that is relevant to these disciplines. The fire behavior part has been fairly competent but up to only a few years ago have we been give actual leadership courses and these don't even count toward any position qualifications, ie, GS-401 series positions, though they do count towards Red Card quals. Weird how that one works isn't it?

The way to fix this is to establish a Wildland Firefighter series and get rid of the antiquated Forestry Aid and Tech position classifications.

Establish which college courses are out there that fit a Firefighter classification. Leadership, Management, Emergency Personnel Management, Fire Officer, EMT and Paramedic courses and the like. They are already established but FS personnel get no credit for these because they don't equate to natural resource courses. I have had employees with 4 year degrees in Fire Services Administration that could only qualify for a GS-5 Senior Firefighter position because they had firefighter experience and worked on the family ranch. This is absurd.

If we wanted to be Foresters we would have gone to Forestry school. We want to be Fire Leaders and Managers so, we need to go to Fire Leader and Manager school. It's pretty simple. OPM will do whatever the Agencies ask them to do; they have no ownership in the GS Forestry Tech. series; they only care about the qualifications the FS and other agencies are requiring for whatever position is needed.

I am sure with the support of agency "leadership" colleges would be very happy to modify Emergency Management courses to better fit the need of those professional emergency responders who specialize in the area of Wildland and Urban Interface response, ie, Forestry Range Techs.

As far as the "lifelong students" part goes, we cannot send our TEMPS to training in the off season under the current personnel regs; we can't even sign them up as volunteers and pay for their room and board and courses.

Might want to fix that while you are at it.

It's time to "fish or cut bait".

Thread with Harbour's letter: www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist/showthread.php?t=4007 Ab.